Re: [Biofuel] The NSA Isn't Foiling Terrorist Plots
Hallo, So Teun van Dongen is a national security expert and a PhD candidate eh? I guess I would hate to have him working for me. When intel is properly and efficiently gathered there IS no credible evidence. Perhaps he doesn't understand the nature of intelligence in the first place. As for PhD...doesn't that, in some cases, mean piled higher and deeper? While I am very far from being a fan of big and all knowing government I am much more concerned with all facets of the business, commercial, banking world. Their reach is insidious and their aims nefarious. They had a much better propaganda machine back in the 1920's than Hitler ever did, and their talent for social engineering is considerably more dangerous than all the intel services combined. As Frank Zappa once said, And you will do as you are told until the rights to you are sold. I wonder exactly when we became mindless herd animals unable to think for ourselves or put 2 and 2 together. It makes much more sense to go after those who ALLOW these things and the people who finance those allowing these things than it does to go after the intel services themselves. Follow the money. Use your heads, don't be sidetracked, don't be manipulated. Use common sense. Don't put the cart before the horse. The problem is NOT with the intel services, but with those controlling them and the ones controlling those in control of the services. You must go to the source to stop the beast. Half measures will not work. Being side tracked is not only dangerous it is stupid. Welcome to the matrix kids. Lord I am glad I am old and close to croaking. I pity my children and grandchildren for the world they will have to live in. Let's all go now and do some fracking and spray the crops so our GM food will survive. Happy Happy, Gustl Friday, October 11, 2013, 8:41:54 AM, you wrote: KA http://fpif.org/nsa-isnt-foiling-terrorist-plots/ KA The NSA Isn't Foiling Terrorist Plots KA There's still no credible evidence that the NSA's massive digital KA surveillance has disrupted any terrorist plots. KA By Teun van Dongen, October 8, 2013. KA U.S. officials claim that the government's massive data collection KA has protected the country from terrorist attacks. After The KA Guardian's first revelations about the National Security Agency's KA digital surveillance programs, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, chairman of the KA Senate Intelligence Committee, and Rep. Mike Rogers, head of the KA House Intelligence Committee, jumped to the NSA's defense by pointing KA to two terrorist plots supposedly foiled by the organization's KA digital surveillance programs. Lawyers and policemen involved in KA these cases disputed these claims, but this did not keep NSA chief KA Keith Alexander from taking it up a notch by raising the number of KA foiled attacks to more than 50, and later to 54. KA These numbers are crucial for an informed debate about the digital KA surveillance programs. If the NSA's digital surveillance indeed KA prevented 54 terrorist attacks, the public can decide whether these KA 54 attacks are worth their privacy. This number would suggest that KA the NSA's programs are actually keeping the United States and Europe KA safe from terrorism. KA It is far from certain, however, that the NSA is getting its numbers right. KA Who Stops Terrorism? KA Contrary to what one would expect given the secretive nature of KA intelligence operations, we actually know quite a bit about how KA terrorist plots in the United States and Europe are foiled. Several KA attacks, for instance, were discovered after law enforcement agencies KA picked up on suspicious (non-digital) behaviors of the plotters. KA Samir Azzouz, the most prolific jihadist terrorist in the KA Netherlands, attracted the attention of the Dutch secret service when KA he tried to travel to Chechnya to join the jihad against the Russians. KA Other plotters gave themselves away by associating with known KA terrorists. For instance, a 2009 plot to attack the New York Stock KA Exchange came to light after one of the perpetrators contacted a KA Yemeni extremist who was under FBI surveillance. The plans of Mohamed KA Osman Mohamud, who was arrested just before he could execute his KA attack against a Christmas tree-lighting ceremony in Portland, were KA detected in a similar manner. The FBI started following Mohamud after KA he e-mailed a known terrorist recruiter. Since the FBI does not have KA mass digital surveillance capabilities, the person Mohamud contacted KA was likely already under surveillance. KA Najibullah Zazi's plans for an attack against the New York subway KA were thwarted this way, too. British intelligence informed their U.S. KA counterparts that Zazi had had e-mail contact with a Pakistani KA radical who was being watched for involvement in a British terror KA plot. A fourth example involves Abdullah Ahmed Ali, the ringleader of
Re: [Biofuel] More mad dogs
Hallo, I belong to an email list of former and current spooks who worked under the command of a particular intel outfit. All branches of the military are represented as well as the 3 letter civilian outfits. Many things are discussed on the list but NEVER anything classified. It is purely social in nature. Below is an email from the list. I have deleted last names and email addresses to maintain the privacy of the folks in the mail. I know neither of them. I am not endorsing either spying or violence, but rather pointing out what defense means to the Israeli government. If they do this to their allies consider what they are prepared to do to their enemies, and what the word peaceful means to them. To those of you who know me, no, I'm not dead yet but do have some major health problems and my activities are restricted. Typing is excruciating. Even using a fork and spoon are let alone a knife or chopsticks. I apologize for not answering emails, but Keith will tell you that they tend to be lengthy and this one is plenty long enough. My best wishes to all my good friends on this list, particularly to my brother Keith. You are in my thoughts and daily prayers. Happy Happy, Gustl - - - - - - - - Letters to the Editor (This was submitted to the newspaper by John W and forwarded to the spook list by Don C.) Orlando Sentinel Remember the dead during peace time We must not forget those who died, not in war but as a result of a hostile act during peace time. On June 8, 1967, a highly sophisticated intelligence-gathering ship, The USS Liberty was in international waters off the coast of Egypt. Its mission was to ascertain if Russians or Egyptians were flying missions against Israel during its war against Egypt. At about 2 that afternoon, two Israeli Mirage fighters attacked the ship. Other aircraft followed, dropping napalm on the Liberty's deck. Israeli torpedo boats followed, launching their projectiles. One of the five torpedoes hit the ship, killing a number of cryptologists. The attack lasted less than an hour and a half, and the ship sustained 821 shell holes plus a 40-foot hole by the torpedo. The Liberty had a complement of 294 men. Thirty-four died, and some-170 were wounded - a 70 percent casualty rate and the highest for a U.S. ship since World War II. John W Donald C -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. Friedrich Nietzsche The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Hallo D., Historians, like intel analysts, should observe and report without viewing the events through the lens of their own preconceived notions, cherished beliefs, political and religious bias and be absolutely impartial but that isn't what happens which is why we have historical revisionists not to mention a political office in the pentagon which sifts through the intel and takes whatever supports their position regardless of whether the intel is good or flawed. I believe this happens because we are not taught how to properly think and reason impartially. This happens with even the most well educated of us. Folks learn/believe something and it becomes almost holy to them. My side is the good and yours is the evil. type of thing. A couple of examples spring immediately to mind but the one which I will use comes from this forum and that would be the thread about science versus traditional/alternative medicine. On the one hand we have the folks holding that only that which has been investigated and proven by scientific principles is worthy of use and on the other we have the traditionalists who hold that their methods work and go on to use a different vocabulary to explain why if they even know why. It is interesting that those on the scientific side do not seem to understand that the more we learn the more we ought to realize how very little we really know and on the traditional side how quick we are to dismiss things because they come from modern science. Where is the middle path? Tuesday, 28 November, 2006, 02:05:49, you wrote: DM Hi Leo, DMRight on! History as written in books is largely either incomplete or DM wrong, sometimes DM intentionally so. I wonder how two historians, one leaning to the right and DM the other leaning to the DM left, will record the history of the Bush/Cheney administration. DM Peace, D. Mindock DM - Original Message - DM From: leo bunyan DM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org DM Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:45 PM DM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax DM I'm still here D DM Funny how history repeats itself or stays the same DM Really it's a bit pointless teaching history in schools DM as nobody seems to learn from it DM Leo DM D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DM Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I put that hoax article out there to see what the DM reponse would be. DM I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't want him to suffer from DM spinmeisterism. DM Peace, D. Mindock DM - Original Message - DM From: Bob Molloy DM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org DM Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22 PM DM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax DM Hi All, DMHoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is DM pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to DM make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the DM Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to DM a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line. DM We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the DM obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working DM in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that DM political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. DM Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor DM housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be DM sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien DM conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon DM adapted. DM However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let DM us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the DM first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in DM modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American DM article. DM On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this DM fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US DM military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every DM hour since Christ was born. DM Bob. DM From: DM http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A DM 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 DM http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm DM[Printer-friendly version] DM The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology DM Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a DM prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in. DM By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffrey D. Sachs DM One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine DM society's desires for economic prosperity and
[Biofuel] CIA's Total Envolment in Indo-China War
Hallo, Just in case anyone is interested: National Security Archives has just released documents on the CIA's envolvement in Viet Nam and all of Indo-China... http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB284/index.htm also: Taking the Risk out of Democracy: Corporate Propaganda versus Freedom and Liberty Alex Carey University of Illinois Press 1995 (paperback 1997) ISBN 0-252-06616-2 www.press.ullinois.edu Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. Friedrich Nietzsche The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Anna Edey Information?
Hallo Friends, Does anyone have any knowledge of a woman by the name of Anna Edey and her work? If so, what is your impression of what it is claimed she has accomplished? Is it worth checking into further? Thank you kindly. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. Friedrich Nietzsche The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] the time is
Hallo Kirk, Sunday, 04 November, 2007, 10:20:49, you wrote: See also: http://www.worldtimeserver.com http://www.worldtimeserver.com/atomic-clock/ Happy Happy, Gustl KM the official time in the US from the atomic clock... KM http://www.time.gov/ KM __ KM Do You Yahoo!? KM Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around KM http://mail.yahoo.com KM -- next part -- KM An HTML attachment was scrubbed... KM URL: /pipermail/attachments/20071104/c3ec91fe/attachment.html KM ___ KM Biofuel mailing list KM Biofuel@sustainablelists.org KM http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel KM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: KM http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html KM Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): KM http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Re Twentynine steps to the unthinkable
Hallo Hakan, I don't suffer from the problems you mentioned below and I certainly don't look at the times using today's standards as a measure. In the military I worked in an intelligence unit and I can tell you that from an analysis standpoint everything you have mentioned doesn't amount to any sort or reasonable proof of anything other than that the camps existed and people died in them. Eyewitness proof is absolutely worthless. Folks are, in my view, pretty fast and loose with the terms proof and evidence. Intel analysts have a considerably higher standard than simple word of mouth or simple photographs, or at least they should have. I remember the dishonor Powell brought upon himself and our nations by taking discredited photographic evidence to the UN and claiming it to be good intel. Everything has a context brother. There is considerable difference in the word camp when it is prefaced by death or work. And Hakan, do not take this to mean that camps of either sort are to be considered in any way moral or acceptable. That is not what I mean at all. I am sick nearly to death of this nonsense between the Holocaust advocates and those denying the event. There is absolutely NO reason not to send in a multi-national forensic team to those camps and do the science. It would be definitive and shut EVERYONE on either side of the issue up. Doing the science is a win/win situation as I see it. I cannot imagine that most everyone is not tired of hearing the two sides argue about it. What is the objection to ending it by scientific verification or falsification? I see only benefits. Happy Happy, Gustl Sunday, 30 September, 2007, 14:32:45, you wrote: HF Gustl, HF I am sorry, but I am very sure of existence of HF the death camps etc.. Not only because I met a lo of HF survivors, but also the very large photographic HF evidence. Already in the early 50's I saw a lot of news HF reels, made mainly by the Americans. We did not HF have TV at that time and the news journals was HF shown before movies or at the three theatres in HF Stockholm that showed short news, nature, science HF and cartoons non stop. HF If you want proof, there are a lot of it films, HF photographs and witness statement. I is so much and from HF various sources. that it is impossible to stage HF this. You also can look at material from all the court HF cases, which is an enormous amount. It is also HF documented that the Holocaust was organized by HF a small circle of people and the general German HF population was not aware or belive that this was going HF on. Many knew that about internment, because it HF was going on in public, but not about the final solution. HF It was a very well guarded secret. Most Germans HF would have been seriously upset and revolted, if they HF would have known. I am not a supporter of making HF the German people in general responsible for what HF happened, this would be awfully wrong, HF You should also remember the very harsh HF punishment that was imposed on the German general population HF after WWI. It was no love lost on the Americans, HF French, English etc.. It was also general and severe poverty HF and hunger problems in Germany after the WWI HF peace and the Nazis managed to get the country out of that HF situation. HF You should also try to imagine a very much easier HF controlled news information situation and a very skillful HF Nazi apparatus to manage it. The Nazis not only HF invented terror bombing and other physiological warfare, HF they also invented mass media manipulation and HF became masters of it. Today we are used to it and especially HF the ones coming from USA and USSR, but the HF Americans are todays masters. You can imagine how easy it HF must have been to manipulate the German HF population, who had never been subject to such things. Do not make HF the mistake to measure the 1930's with todays measurement. HF Hakan HF At 04:32 PM 9/30/2007, you wrote: Hallo All, Somehow I thought this was the Biofuel list but if I am going on content then I guess it isn't and my reasons are below. First, this is 2007 not the dark ages. We actually have science now and much of what has been posited as fact can be scientifically verified or denied in a broad spectrum of areas. Forensics and mathmatics. What has been called The Holocaust and accepted as undisputed fact was not so named by those dubbed as Holocaust deniers. The burden of proof does not lie with the deniers but with those claiming that The Holocaust was a planned, oragnized, orchestrated and executed attempt to exterminate European Jewery by various methods but primarily in death camps located initially both inside and outside the Reich proper but subsequently only outside the Reich in occupied territory in the east and primarily in Poland. All this has been posited by interested parties without a shred of any
[Biofuel] Re Twentynine steps to the unthinkable
Hallo All, Somehow I thought this was the Biofuel list but if I am going on content then I guess it isn't and my reasons are below. First, this is 2007 not the dark ages. We actually have science now and much of what has been posited as fact can be scientifically verified or denied in a broad spectrum of areas. Forensics and mathmatics. What has been called The Holocaust and accepted as undisputed fact was not so named by those dubbed as Holocaust deniers. The burden of proof does not lie with the deniers but with those claiming that The Holocaust was a planned, oragnized, orchestrated and executed attempt to exterminate European Jewery by various methods but primarily in death camps located initially both inside and outside the Reich proper but subsequently only outside the Reich in occupied territory in the east and primarily in Poland. All this has been posited by interested parties without a shred of any evidence other than anecdotal and by the existence of the camps which were called work camps by the Germans. There is not one single offical German reference to such a program and the Germans documented everything. They were hardly shy of announcing to the world of their hatred of the Jews and there is no reason to believe that the Nazi's, given their proclivity for hate, violence and brutality, would be anything other than proud of their activity in this area and would have not only considered it quite accomplished but also have proclaimed it from hill to dale worldwide. IF the world want to shut all these Holocaust deniers mouths then it is only necessary to do the science folks. Take the claims of those deniers and either verify or falsify them one by one. They are calling for science and mathematics so IF there is forensic and mathmatical evidence to be had then provide it to them and shut them up or if there is none to be had then admit it and let the fuss stop. It is as simple as that. I don't know how many times Keith has told folks that if they make a claim then back it up. Where is the difference? How is it that we are willing to allow reason to simply not apply to this matter? We have accusations and counter accusations and we now have the scientific ability to lay this issue to rest. So why isn't it being laid to rest? How is it that this cherished belief is exempt from scrutiny? What the Nazi's did in the name of Germany is bad enough. Should it turn out that the holocaust revisionists are correct then what has been done to Germany by the rest of the world is just as bad. I was born in the United States of parents born in the United States but I am old enough to have been called a Nazi in my youth because I came from a German speaking family. I don't much like it. The German government has been owning up to The Holocaust since the end of the war. IF it turns out that, in fact, there was no such thing, no death camps, no extermination plans, then how quick is the world going to be in saying, Well, we were right about the rest of the war but 100 percent wrong about that other little matter. Sorry about that.? It isn't going to happen. Would anyone be sorry that generations of Germans have grown up hating who they are because of a lie? I don't think so. We, as a species, seem to be quick to point the accusing finger but slow to apologize for a mistake if one has been made. Finding out for a certainty whether or not this evil thing did or did not happen would be nice. It is wearying to keep having this ground ploughed again and again without having any crops come up. The seed is there to be sown so why not do it? Send in a multi-national scientific forensic team and do the science. Get a definitive answer and lay this beast to rest. We have work to do and this thing does nothing but divert attention from pressing problems. It can be definitively decided. If the science and math are there then it is laid to rest and if they are not there it is laid to rest. End of story. I am somewhat disappointed that folks would jump on Molloy about this without any evidence other than hearsay, assumptions and cherished beliefs and particularly since Bob was asking questions not making accusations. It is incumbent on those making the accusations of the atrocities to give scientific evidence of not only the physical possibility of the event but of the actual event. Leuchter, who evidently went into the forensic investigation at the behest of a Holocaust denier on trial in Canada I believe but with the personal intention of gathering evidence proving the event, found no evidence to support the claims of the Allies and the survivors of the camps, but contrariwise, found it lacking. As he was working for the opposition so to speak then let disinterested parties, perhaps a United
Re: [Biofuel] Watch this
Hallo Olivier, I just want to know if I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that accuracy counts for nothing then or something else? Are you speaking about blood, nationality, citizenship, what? I'm not looking to argue here but to understand your meaning. Happy Happy, Gustl Monday, 10 September, 2007, 02:34:40, you wrote: ...snip... Hi Kirk, did you watched the whole Video? I found a small (or big ) Mistake towards the End! Albert Einstein was presented as an other Austrian Scientist! In my books Einstein was born in Ulm Germany and this makes him a German Scientist! OM Being born in Germany, would that really make him German ? OM (even though, yes he was born German in Ulm in 1879)!) OM Just curiosity. But if it was born let say in Switzerland then he won't be OM Swiss. He would still be German. OM He did studied in Zurich Switzerland and worked in Berne Switzerland at his OM early age, then in Prague, 1911 before he became a teacher at the OM polytechnic school in Zurich (where he studied), 1912. OM Then in my book it says: OM He joined the Institute for Advanced Study de Princeton and later took the OM American nationality in 1940. And passed away in 1955 in Princeton. Not very important in my Philosophie but why the misrepresentation? Fritz OM Olivier OM ___ OM Biofuel mailing list OM Biofuel@sustainablelists.org OM http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel OM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: OM http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html OM Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): OM http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Who owns you World
Hallo Skak, It is our dialect called boarisch or Bayerisch in standard German or Bavarian in englisch. Boarisch is getting rare I think. I am the last one in our family to speak it and I now speak it poorly as the only other one I could speak it with, my grandmother, died decades ago. I tried teaching it to my children and now to my grandchildren but they didn't/don't want to be different than their friends so it doesn't stick. When my oldest hit 28 she told me she wished she had learned German/Bavarian when she had the chance. Told her so. hehehe One of my young friends from Bavaria, Uli (52), comes here once a year and we speak in boarisch on and off. Mostly he is with others who don't speak the dialect so we have to use standard German which I also don't speak very well any longer. Other than the bible I don't read much in German so once a year isn't enough to keep me fluent. I am ashamed of myself but such is life I suppose. Anyhow, Uli tells me that he hears less and less Bavarian spoken in Bavaria and then mostly out on the land and mostly among older folks. Fritz has called it the language of resistance. I never thought of it that way but I like the idea. It is the language our people used before predatory culture became the norm, the reality. It is the language of the land, the family, the community. There is a smallness (in the best sense) and cohesiveness about it as well as a plainness and honesty of expression. We don't say feces when shit will do. It is the language of the common person full of life and humor. The name of those things which dangle between a mans legs are called Glockngspui in Bavarian which translates to Glockenspiel or chimes. I can't imagine that in standard German. It is the language people (used to) speak at home among family and friends. This is probably more than you wished to know but it is what it is friend. Happy Happy, Gustl Friday, 07 September, 2007, 06:14:27, you wrote: KSP Now I got curious; Exactly what language was that? KSP I know the languages from the countries surrounding DK, and it's none of them. KSP Greetings from Denmark, Europe KSP Skak KSP On 07/09/2007, Fritz Friesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: eh Ken, thats simply the language of resistance! Fritz - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Who owns you World On Sep 6, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: Grüaßdi Fritzl, Jawoi, Bua! Leida heitztaag denga in d oid Hoamatl vuizvui Leit wia d Saupreiß. Göid und no Göid. Jamei Bua, so a Schmarrn! Pfüatdi Whoa! That ain't the German I learnt in college! -K -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20070906/a9470bdd/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20070906/532201ff/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ KSP ___ KSP Biofuel mailing list KSP Biofuel@sustainablelists.org KSP http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel KSP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: KSP http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html KSP Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): KSP http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness
Re: [Biofuel] U.S.prof.who says Jews abuse Holocaus to curb critics resigns
Hallo Fritz, This was posted here years ago. Perhaps it needs to be seen again: - - - - - - - - The Practice of Ritual Defamation How values, opinions and beliefs are controlled in democratic societies. Defamation is the destruction or attempted destruction of the reputation, status, character or standing in the community of a person or group of persons by unfair, wrongful, or malicious speech or publication. For the purposes of this essay, the central element is defamation in retaliation for the real or imagined attitudes, opinions or beliefs of the victim, with the intention of silencing or neutralizing his or her influence, and/or making an example of them so as to discourage similar independence and insensitivity or non-observance of taboos. It is different in nature and degree from simple criticism or disagreement in that it is aggressive, organized and skillfully applied, often by an organization or representative of a special interest group, and in that it consists of several characteristic elements. Ritual Defamation is not ritualistic because it follows any prescribed religious or mystical doctrine, nor is it embraced in any particular document or scripture. Rather, it is ritualistic because it follows a predictable, stereotyped pattern which embraces a number of elements, as in a ritual. The elements of a Ritual Defamation are these: 1.In a ritual defamation the victim must have violated a particular taboo in some way, usually by expressing or identifying with a forbidden attitude, opinion or belief. It is not necessary that he do anything about it or undertake any particular course of action, only that he engage in some form of communication or expression. 2. The method of attack in a ritual defamation is to assail the character of the victim, and never to offer more than a perfunctory challenge to the particular attitudes, opinions or beliefs expressed or implied. Character assassination is its primary tool. 3. An important rule in ritual defamation is to avoid engaging in any kind of debate over the truthfulness or reasonableness of what has been expressed, only condemn it. To debate opens the issue up for examination and discussion of its merits, and to consider the evidence that may support it, which is just what the ritual defamer is trying to avoid. The primary goal of a ritual defamation is censorship and repression. 4. The victim is often somebody in the public eye - someone who is vulnerable to public opinion - although perhaps in a very modest way. It could be a schoolteacher, writer, businessman, minor official, or merely an outspoken citizen. Visibility enhances vulnerability to ritual defamation. An attempt, often successful, is made to involve others in the defamation. 5. In the case of a public official, other public officials will be urged to denounce the offender. In the case of a student, other students will be called upon, and so on. 6. In order for a ritual defamation to be effective, the victim must be dehumanized to the extent that he becomes identical with the offending attitude, opinion or belief, and in a manner which distorts it to the point where it appears at its most extreme. For example, a victim who is defamed as a subversive will be identified with the worst images of subversion, such as espionage, terrorism or treason. A victim defamed as a pervert will be identified with the worst images of perversion, including child molestation and rape. A victim defamed as a racist or anti-Semitic will be identified with the worst images of racism or anti-Semitism, such as lynchings or gas chambers. 7. Also to be successful, a ritual defamation must bring pressure and humiliation on the victim from every quarter, including family and friends. If the victim has school children, they may be taunted and ridiculed as a consequence of adverse publicity. If they are employed, they may be fired from their job. If the victim belongs to clubs or associations, other members may be urged to expel them. 8. Any explanation the victim may offer, including the claim of being misunderstood, is considered irrelevant. To claim truth as a defense for a politically incorrect value, opinion or belief is interpreted as defiance and only compounds the problem. Ritual defamation is often not necessarily an issue of being wrong or incorrect but rather of insensitivity and failing to observe social taboos. An interesting aspect of ritual defamation as a practice is its universality. It is not specific to any value, opinion or belief or to any group or subculture. It may be used for or against any political, ethnic, national or religious group. It may, for example, by anti-Semites against Jews, or by Jews against anti-Semites; by rightists against leftists or
Re: [Biofuel] Who owns you World
Grüaßdi Fritzl, Jawoi, Bua! Leida heitztaag denga in d oid Hoamatl vuizvui Leit wia d Saupreiß. Göid und no Göid. Jamei Bua, so a Schmarrn! Pfüatdi, Gustl Thursday, 06 September, 2007, 13:05:32, you wrote: FF We are even worse in Australia- we are a nation which longs to be Americans, but can't quite pull it off. We live their culture vicariously throught the tellie and movies. America may be the last original culture on earth, as all others strive to be like them. FF Hey Mike and Josh, FF good news for both of you! FF There is still a bunch of real Bavarians und as i know for shure a lot of Quebecers who resist the trend of americanism! FF Fritz FF -- next part -- ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] What ever happened to Bob Allen?
Hallo, He went to defecate and the swine devoured him. ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl Saturday, 17 March, 2007, 16:15:18, you wrote: MW Whatever happened to that loud-mouth know it all Weaver, too? MW Keith Addison wrote: I haven't seen any posts from Bob Allen these days? Are you still there? Jim Bob left some months ago. There'd been some problems with the server at the time and after his unsub notice was received I wrote to him asking whether he'd intended to unsub or it just happened to him, in which case of course I'd reinstate him if he wanted me to. He replied that that he'd unsubbed intentionally. It followed the ongoing fracas over mercury, Deepak Chopra and other things, when Bob took a lot of flak for demanding proof, but it turned out only his own particular very narrow criteria for proof were acceptable to him. He told me the list wasn't scientific or not in some areas anyway or something like that, IIRC. Seemed to me though that Bob had had the carpet pulled out from under him quite a few times by various members and he was left without a response, so he just looked the other way. I'd say the list was too rigorous for him rather than his view, that he was the rigorous one. I think not. Pity he left though. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ MW ___ MW Biofuel mailing list MW Biofuel@sustainablelists.org MW http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org MW Biofuel at Journey to Forever: MW http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html MW Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): MW http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Localize Me
Hallo Chip, One really has to be careful about logic. It is more than just Modus Ponens, Modus Tollens, disjunctive syllogisms and so on. There are, of course, the the simple symbolizations but there are the more complex symbolizations and inferences of symbolic language not to mention the truth-values, validity and soundness of premises, arguments and conclusions. The validity of an argument is important but the soundness is of prime importance. There are too many valid arguments which are unsound. It is worth ones while to study and become intimately acquainted with formal symbolic logic, particularly in todays world of spin and lies. If anyone is interested but not inclined to take a couple of semesters of symbolic logic at the local Uni or college then they might pick up a good introductory book on logic. I would recommend: Introductory Symbolic Logic John K. Wilson Wadsworth Publishing Company Belmont, California 1992 ISBN 0-534-16818-3 Happy Happy, Gustl Wednesday, 07 March, 2007, 10:05:44, you wrote: CM MK DuPree wrote: Have you heard of the documentary Super Size Me? This guy eats nothing but McDonald's for a month. About dies. Here's a story from our local newspaper about a local restaurant that specializes in local buffalo and elk burgers and other local, organically grown produce doing a Localize Me promotion. I've plugged the List in my comments to this story, and I'm embarrassed, but not surprised, by many of the comments to this story. CM SNIP. CM It's an interesting read, those comments. CM Now, here's an exercise in debate 101; CM How many of the following logical fallacies can CM you spot in the comments? CM -- CM argumentum ad logicam (argument from fallacy) CM in argument form; CM if A then B CM A is false, CM therefore B is false. CM To wit; CM P(rotagonist) I am a man. I drive a car, that means I am a man, because CM men drive cars CM A(ntagonist) My sister drives a car, and she is not a man. Therefore CM you are not a man CM CM Affirming the consequent CM If A, then B CM B CM therefore A CM (really common on right wing talk radio) CM If Alice were a real communist, Alice wouldn't own any real property CM Alice doesn't own any real property CM Therefore, Alice is a communist CM - CM Straw man CM (really really common in nearly all political debates) CM P(rotagonist) I think global warming is a 'bad-thing' CM A(ntagonist) Living in the stone age in no picnic CM The antagonist has implied that the protagonist advocates CM giving up on all technology, neatly side-stepping all CM debate about what efforts can be made to address the actual CM issue. CM --- CM argument by authority CM Bob makes statement B CM Bob is a noted authority CM Therefore statement B is true. CM (I see this all the time, everywhere, this mail list, and CM pretty much in any and all debates) CM Bob can makde statement B, and this statement may be true CM or false. This is an expressed 'factual claim'. CM However, the conclusion that statement B is true, based CM on Bob's authority, is only implied. Therefore logically, CM it doesn't stand. CM - CM And the converse, (my personal favorite, the base of our last CM long thread here on the mailing list) CM argumentum ad hominem (argument against the man) CM Christie makes statement C; CM There is something about Christie folks don't like, CM Therefore statement C is false. CM This can go on and on. CM And it feeds lots and lots of other logical fallacies. CM Dave claims that polychorinated biphenols found in our CM aquifer are bad. CM Dave is a hippy CM Hippies don't have jobs CM Therefore anyone claiming pcbs are bad is CM trying to take our jobs. CM Pretty much anything you hear from news commentators CM here in the US follows this (lack of) logic. CM --- CM Google logical fallacy sometime. CM It's fun and educational! CM ___ CM Biofuel mailing list CM Biofuel@sustainablelists.org CM http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org CM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: CM http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html CM Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): CM http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little,
Re: [Biofuel] Can these people be trusted with our planet?
Hallo Robert, Sunday, 28 January, 2007, 14:18:41, you wrote: rabr David Kramer wrote: ...snip... Pointing out that religious claims are not supported by any evidence is not ridicule, it's a statement of fact. rabr Pointing out that atheism is just a substitution of one belief rabr system for another is also a statement of fact. In terms of not rabr being supported by evidence, you need to define what constitutes rabr acceptable evidence and what should be rejected. If your a rabr priori assumption is that God doesn't exist, you will rabr immediately reject and ridicule anything that doesn't fit your rabr preconceived concept of what constitutes valid evidence. ...snip... The problem is Robert, with fundamentalists of any stripe including atheists, is that they refuse to pick up the tools of understanding when they lay right in front of them. They would all rather cling tenaciously to their cherished BELIEFS rather than take the effort to use the readily available tools and acquire understanding. If you get Christian fundamentalists they dismiss everything with, The bible says... and their minds shut down. With the scientific athiests it is, That is all subjective and there is no evidence... and their minds shut down. Neither are willing to admit that their own puny understanding of science or religion is at best limited and faulty. There is more which we don't know than that which we do. They wish to apply the same rules to very different kinds of knowledge. It is worse than comparing apples and oranges. It is more like comparing apples and horse manure. I think that most of the problems which we encounter on this list revolve around cherished beliefs and stiff necks. One side will not allow that the other may have a valid point or that either may have it wrong somewhere. At the very heart of all religion is mysticism and when you get a room full of mystics of whatever belief system together what you get is not argument over picayune matters but rather agreement on fundamentals. This is because they have picked up the tools, done the experiments and reached a scientific consensus of truth which is demonstrable through their changed lives and actions. They recognize that there is a difference between sacred and profane (religious and scientific/worldly) knowledge and accord each its proper place in their lives. They also recognize that one does not conflict with the other if one has a right understanding. A couple of quotes: A mystical experience is not any more unique than a modern experiment in physics. On the other hand, it is not less sophisticated either...The complexity and efficiency of the physicist's technical appartus is matched, if not surpassed, by that of the mystic's consciousness...A page from a journal of modern experimental physics will be as mysterious to the uninitiated as a Tibetan mandala. Both are records of inquiries into the nature of the universe. FRITJOF CAPRA Consider a three-story building. The first floor is where we usually live. The second floor is the level of kensho, or enlightenment. The third floor is the domain to which Dogen summons us, and to reach it, obviously, you have to go by way of the second. But some people quit at the second floor, mistakenly believing they've arrived at the roof. And also let me remind you that above the roof lie boundless skies. Thus, the reality of our practice is that we must clarify ourselves endlessly. KO'UN YAMADA Religious or otherwise, fundamentalists seem to be stuck on the second floor or somewhere on the stairs between the first and second. The quest for knowledge, wisdom and understanding end and cherished beliefs take over. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Can these people be trusted with our planet?
Hallo Robert, Saturday, 13 January, 2007, 16:36:24, you wrote: ...snip rabr This was big news on the radio up here this weekend. Condoms don't belong in school, and neither does Al Gore. He's not a schoolteacher, said Frosty Hardison, a parent of seven who also said that he believes the Earth is 14,000 years old. The information that's being presented is a very cockeyed view of what the truth is. ... The Bible says that in the end times everything will burn up, but that perspective isn't in the DVD. rabr Sigh . . . rabr Jesus, please save me from your followers!!! ...snip... Just to be fair and clear here Robert, these type of people are not following Jesus but rather they are following what His disciples and apostles believed about Him. What He taught and what they taught are often at odds with each other. You won't find any nonsense in the red words to speak of. Paul is particularly notorious often saying in effect, Jesus said ... but I, Paul say ... and then goes on to twist what Jesus said. When I came back from the Nam I was pissed at God and Jesus for a long while until I finally came to the realization that the ones who had been causing me the grief were those who created a religion about Jesus and not Jesus and His teachings which are kind, reasonable, loving, all-inclusive and generous. It is the words printed in black ink that lead to all the trouble. The red words set you free and the black words bind you. Aha, lest I be guilty of forgetting that we are a multi-national list: my reference to the red and black words in the scriptures (Christian bible) needs to be explained. The words printed in red are supposed to be the actual words Jesus spoke and the words in black are supposed to be the words of everyone else. Thomas Jefferson investigated the scriptures from an interesting angle. A short synopsis can be found at: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/jefferson.html Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jane Fonda
Hallo Jim, This has been thoroughly debunked. Completely untrue. Happy Happy, Gustl Thursday, 30 November, 2006, 22:07:42, you wrote: JP I don't know if this is the place for this or not. I got this in the mail the other day. Personally I don't care for Jane, but that is immaterial anyway( not for the for all of the general JP reasons.) Perhaps if nothing else it will open up some lively discussions. I am riding the fence on this one. I cannot substantiate any of it. Well here it is and may the discussion begin. JP Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the JP 100 Women of the Century. JP BY BARBRA WALTERS JP Unfortunately, many have forgotten and still JP countless others have never known how Ms. JP Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country, JP but specific men who served and sacrificed JP during Vietnam. JP The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot JP The pilot's name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat. JP In 1968, the former Commandant of the USAF JP Survival School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison JP the Hanoi Hilton. JP Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, JP cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJ's, he was JP ordered to describe for a visiting American JP Peace Activist the lenient and humane JP treatment he'd received. JP He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and was JP dragged away. JP During the subsequent beating, he fell forward JP on to the camp Commandant's feet, which JP sent that officer berserk. JP In 1978, the Air Force Colonel still suffered from JP double vision (which permanently ended his JP flying career) from the Commandant's frenzied JP application of a wooden baton. From 1963-65, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the JP 47FW/DO (F-4E's). He spent 6 years in the JP Hanoi Hilton,,, the first three of which his JP family only knew he was missing in action. JP His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. JP His group, too, got the cleaned-up, fed and JP clothed routine in preparation for a JP peace delegation visit. JP They, however, had time and devised a plan to JP get word to the world that they were alive JP and still survived. Each man secreted a tiny JP piece of paper, with his Social Security Number JP on it, in the palm of his hand. JP When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a JP cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each JP man's hand and asking little encouraging JP snippets like: Aren't you sorry you bombed JP babies? and Are you grateful for the humane JP treatment from your benevolent captors? JP Believing this HAD to be an act, they each JP palmed her their sliver of paper. JP She took them all without missing a beat. At the JP end of the line and once the camera stopped JP rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, JP she turned to the officer in charge and handed JP him all the little pieces of paper. JP Three men died from the subsequent beatings. JP Colonel Carrigan was almost number four JP but he survived, which is the only reason we JP know of her actions that day. JP I was a civilian economic development advisor JP in Vietnam, and was captured by the North JP Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in JP 1968, and held prisoner for over 5 years. JP I spent 27 months in solitary confinement; one JP year in a cage in Cambodia; and one year JP in a black box in Hanoi. JP My North Vietnamese captors deliberately JP poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a JP nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South JP Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near the JP Cambodian border. JP At one time, I weighed only about 90 lbs. JP (My normal weight is 170 lbs.) JP We were Jane Fonda's war criminals. JP When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by JP the camp communist political officer if I would JP be willing to meet with her. JP I said yes, for I wanted to tell her about the real JP treatment we POWs received... and how JP different it was from the treatment purported by JP the North Vietnamese, and parroted by her as JP Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky JP floor on my knees, with my arms outstretched JP with a large steel weights placed on my hands, JP and beaten with a bamboo cane. JP I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda JP soon after I was released. I asked her JP if she would be willing to debate me on TV. JP She never did answer me. JP These first-hand experiences do not exemplify JP someone who should be honored as part JP of 100 Years of Great Women. JP Lest we forget... 100 Years of Great Women JP should never include a traitor whose hands are JP covered with the blood of so many patriots. JP There are few things I have strong visceral JP reactions to, but Hanoi Jane's participation in JP blatant treason, is one of them. JP Please take the time to forward to as many JP people as you possibly can. JP It will eventually end up on her computer and JP she needs to know that we will never forget. JP RONALD D. SAMPSON, CMSgt, USAF JP 716 Maintenance Squadron,
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
Hallo Bob, Thursday, 02 November, 2006, 12:41:43, you wrote: ba Howdy Gustl ...snip... It's worse than that Joe. He demands data on the efficacy of homeopathic products stating that the work to falsify homeopathy has been done but provides zero data to falsify homeopathy as a legitimate method of treatment. ba so your saying that because I can't prove that it doesn't work, means ba that it does? If your reading comprehension leads you to that kind of conclusion from my words above then it is small wonder you are still here bickering. But then I don't think that's what's going on. I think you just don't care about anything but winning an argument regardless of whether others may be right or wrong. Personality flaw which makes for a dishonest intellect. You would make a good scientist for the tobacco companies. That bit of mine means that you demand data of others to prove their claim for which they have only testimonials because the scientific community has dismissed their claims out of hand without using the scientific method while at the same time you verbally sneer at them while you pronounce they are wrong without providing them the exact data you demand which would falsify their claims. If you demand data to prove something you must provide data to disprove that thing. If testimonials are not sufficient proof without experimentation then scientific opinion without experimentation is not sufficient. And concerning that bit of yours below. I am old enough to remember when it was a scientific FACT that there was nothing smaller than the atom, but then along came an whole new breed of microscopes and, gee whiz, it seems that there are particles smaller than the atom. You may hypothesize that there is nothing left but any proofs you may have may be short lived because of the limitations of science and the accompanying technology. Like the microscope we may not yet have instrumentation sensitive enough to accurately measure such miniscule amounts. And, if it were you doing the measuring I would be skeptical at any rate given your propensity to misdirect, dodge and weave, twist words, etc. And finally, again, I have no investment in homeopathy, don't use the remedies and am skeptical enough myself to not spend my money on them. But, I do have an investment in fair, honest and accurate discourse and debate. The folks speaking for homeopathy have been using testimonial evidence which is only that and nothing more, testimonial evidence and that seems to satisfy them which is all well and good. You do not seem to be satisfied with saying, Well, I don't believe that and it hasn't been scientifically proven. and letting it go at that, but demand satisfaction from them in the form of experimental data from experiments which have apparently not been done to affirm the efficacy of homeopathic medicine while simultaneously exempting yourself from presenting experimental data falsifying homeopathy by citing current scientific theory. Sorry, that doesn't wash. Ask Einstein. Everything isn't readily apparent. You have your beliefs and they have theirs. Ego shouldn't have a place in the debate on either side of the question. Happy Happy, Gustl ba here is what I can prove: the dilutions employed in homeopathy are ba such that there is nothing left of the agent (the duck liver for ba example) in the final product. Logic alone would suggest then that ba the duck liver has no effect on the outcome of the use of the ba product, unless you accept that the water remembered the duck ba liver, and this was transfered to the filler in the capsule taken. ba One, I would think, has to suspend any connection to reality to ba believe that the water remembers what was in it. ba toodles -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
Hallo Joe, Thursday, 02 November, 2006, 10:05:46, you wrote: JS ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer hand'...careful there JS Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot. If you are saying that there JS is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and repeating it 3 times) ( is that JS like tapping the heels of your shoes three times?.lol) well then how JS can NOTHING do SOMETHING? Harm or otherwise? JS Joe It's worse than that Joe. He demands data on the efficacy of homeopathic products stating that the work to falsify homeopathy has been done but provides zero data to falsify homeopathy as a legitimate method of treatment. Evidently he hasn't heard that what is good for the goose is good for the gander or of logical debate for that matter. If he had anything other than an opinion he would provide it but it isn't in any of his mails nor will it ever be because the work has apparently not been done. I haven't followed this thread but would like to know if he has cited any hard data or has he only cited the opinions of some scientists or nothing at all. Homeopathy has not been falsified because either no one has taken the trouble to do it or it works is what it looks like. His science is as hard as the testimonies he decries and his data against homeopathy is as lacking as the hard data for it. Some folks just like to talk for the sake of talking. Happy Happy, Gustl JS bob allen wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and with no adverse side effects/toxicology. checkout the nocebo effect numerous examples of harm. In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic. actually it can be. see above More than can be said of many pharma nostrums. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: D. Mindock wrote: Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your quackwatch routine. Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices is silly of me to ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or science. I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our positions. I seek rational explanations and reproducable evidence and you accept testimony. You have your thoughts on things and that is the final word for you. Science is only a method, a tool, agreeed to get something believed to have a chance of being true to be verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the hypothesis in the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite some time. no it hasn't. maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not homeopathy. That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid. so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do something? Science is merely a method. agreed Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that. who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense. But if you really want to know it came from a guy called Hahnemann, who apparently had a very confused sense of cause and effect, and that silliness has persisted to this day. So D if you really believe this works , shouldn't the hypothesis be testable? Where is the data.? Peace and light, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Sorry but I have to jump in here with the mention of homeopathy. This is the silliest most counter-intuitive medical mubo-jumbo on the planet. there is zero valid support for the idea that something which causes a symptom at high doses (what ever that means) is cured by something at extremely low doses. And I mean extreme. Substances are diluted to 10 to the 120th power and more. At this concentration there is nothing left at all. A little critical thinking goes a long way here. There may be some herbs out there for which there is credible evidence for efficacy, but as far as homeopathy goes- it is nonsense. Marylynn Schmidt wrote: Just my thoughts on the matter of bone (or anything) re-growth .. We are a whole and the whole must be treated so going to a dentist for bone re-growth and/or gum tissue re-growth is as much of a separation of self as seeing the heart specialist for heart problems, the dermatologist for skin problems, etc Your mouth, gums, jaw bone, teeth are still a part of the whole .. nothing is going to exist in
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
Hallo Bob, Wednesday, 01 November, 2006, 08:38:50, you wrote: ...snip... Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that. ba who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense. ba But if you really want to know it came from a guy called ba Hahnemann, who apparently had a very confused sense of cause and ba effect, and that silliness has persisted to this day. So D if you ba really believe this works , shouldn't the hypothesis be testable? ba Where is the data.? Without weighing in on one side or the other of this debate I would like to point out that a hypothesis only gets tested if science is interested enough in the hypothesis, for whatever reason, to do the testing. That a hypothesis has neither been tested and repeated nor negated or affirmed means basically nothing. That the scientific community ignores something or considers something a waste of time without testing also means nothing. People have differing beliefs and what one considers important or worthy another may not for any number of reasons. Sometimes all one has to go on is the testimony of others and sometimes things which fly in the face of science are efficacious. Asking for evidence for something which the scientific community refuses to test is a useless pursuit and proves nothing, neither evidence for or against a hypothesis, and attempting to discredit a theory because of lack of data seems to me but may not truly be disingenuous. I don't know one way or another whether homeopathy is or is not efficacious and neither do you because all we have to go on is testimonials. Science has refused to become involved which means only that science has refused to become involved. One of my former professors from 30 odd years ago is one of the most brilliant and astute and knowledgeable people I have ever known. He is also one of the healthiest people I have ever met and swears by homeopathy. Way back when he explained the theory of how and why it worked while seeming to fly in the face of science but I don't remember what he said and I don't use homeopathic medicine. I do know folks who ingest minute amounts of poison ivy every spring because they are extremely allergic to the plant and they claim it gives them immunity. I wouldn't recommend this method but if it works for them it works for them. And Bob, you know as well as I that science can be bought and science can be suppressed and dismissing that by calling it bad science seems to mean that you perhaps consider yourself qualified to act as the arbiter when it comes to bad science as well as what is or isn't crapola based on your own cherished beliefs. Perhaps that is not the case brother, but that is how you come across. And again, I don't have anything to say for or against homeopathy nor do I use its methods or dismiss them. So what can be said about all this? Those claiming homeopathy to be efficacious are able to say, We believe homeopathy to be efficacious because we have tried it and it has worked for us. This is our testimony. Those claiming homeopathy is not efficacious are able to say, We believe homeopathy to be bunk but since the experiments have not been done we have no evidence of that. It just sounds unscientific, improbable and impossible to us. My personal opinion? Homeopathy may be a topic worth discussing but I'm not anywhere near sure it is worth debating given the lack of hard evidence one way or the other, but that is just me. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence)
Hallo Michael, I may be running on assumptions here and you appear to me to be running on some assumptions, but I do realize that assumptions are only that and nothing more and may be false. Perhaps it is just a matter of definitions or perception. I will give both of us the benefit of the doubt. :o) I was born into, raised as and am presently a member of a mystical religion, that being Friends (Quakers). We had a schism back in the early 1800's here in the states and my family ended up on the Hicksite side of the thing. Outwardly conservative and inwardly liberal. Hicks once stated the following: Now I want these things to sink deep into the heart of every age, sex and condition. Be willing to investigate for yourselves; don't mind what I say, or what any one else may say, but bring things home to the truth in your own bosoms; turn them over and over, and see if there is not something in them worthy of preservation--and if there is not, leave them. I say, I want you to investigate for yourselves; for we have that liberty, in this land of liberty. We have a right to think for ourselves, about what we know to be the truth in ourselves, and nothing but the truth...Oh! then, that we may become willing to turn inward to what the light makes manifest...Whatsoever is wrong is reproved by this light, and all things that are reproveable we know, for they are made manifest by the light; clearly so. And it is reasonable to conclude that without light, nothing can be made manifest. But when we come into the light of the Lord, all things will be made manifest, when the mind is willing, and the heart is disposed to receive God in the way of his coming. I feel earnest in my desires for us, that we may this evening lay these things properly to heart. I hope you will take these things home, my friends, and not be hasty in deciding, but turn them over in your minds, and if you can find any thing in them, well, and if not leave them. (Gould 1830) If this isn't the mystical equivalent of the scientific method then I will eat my hat (either straw or felt). It uses operational terms, allows for experimental duplication and repeatability, calls for emperical observation and induction, uses analytic-synthetic thinking, allows for prediction and falsification and the conclusions come from a scientific public consensus of truth. While all of this is not readily observable from the small paragraph above, it is if one takes the time to get acquainted with Friends beliefs (or those of other branches of mystics). You should be able to get the sense of it from the paragraph above though. But brother, we haven't defined out terms. You claim mystical experience is unverifiable but it is verifiable to anyone with the right tools and interest. If I were to tell you that the existence of atoms is unverifiable you would tell me that I just don't have the right tools and expect me to accept that. Same same mystical experience brother. Goose, gander. Because a person does not pursue one particular path does not obviate the existence of that path nor does it make that path irrelevant. And you can analyze, criticize, or accept anything pertaining to it, including its existence IF you care to take the trouble to examine it thoroughly. But one size does not fit all and if a person doesn't have the interest then there will be no investigation. I would urge caution however to those making pronouncements about something they have not investigated thoroughly and I would also not dismiss something solely because it was subjective. Headaches are subjective brother. :o) And again, mystical experience can be verified if one has enough interest to take the time (and it is a long process) to investigate. Now brother, for this bit: It is possible to have knowledge which comes through a route other than the senses. This is where the time comes in in the investigation. It is not magical at all. The concept of truth is associated with wisdom and facts with knowledge. Truth never changes but facts do. In order to understand how one comes by knowledge through routes other than the senses requires a persons time and experimentation. It is not demonstrable by another and there is no equation I know of which will show it. It is entirely subjective. Once one has had the experience however it can be spoken of with others having had the same experience rationally and intelligently. To simply discount it because one has not had the experience is an error akin to discounting snow because one has never seen it. Since the mystical experience is subjective (as is the headache) it is not incumbent on mystics to prove anything. There is a great body of literature out there which can get very technical about the mystical
Re: [Biofuel] Why the U.S is a broadband ghetto
Hallo Doug, The conspiracy theorist in you (and perhaps the cynic) doesn't understand how intercept works. The speed of the transmission has nothing to do with it as once it is intercepted it can be slowed down to a crawl and dissected. Don't ever short change NSA. ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl Saturday, 16 September, 2006, 06:43:38, you wrote: ds The conspiracy theorist in me (and perhaps the cynic) believes we are ds limited in our internet connection speeds because the FBI and NSA can't ds read your data transmissions that fast. Now, if they'd stop moving ds their lips while reading they could read faster! ds doug swanson ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] overly sensitive etc
Hallo JOe, I can't imagine anyone flaming you over that. It is the content of the heart which counts the most I think but we don't have any formal tests for that but the heart is evidenced by our actions and words. Perhaps life is the test then and it isn't finished until it is finished. Happy Happy, Gustl Thursday, 14 September, 2006, 14:32:56, you wrote: JS Hi Gustl; JS Your point about judgement taken, but I would like to suggest, (and no JS doubt I'll be flamed for this butoh well flame suit on) that anyone JS who feels the need to have their intelligence rated or feels the need to JS be able to make some claim about it, has an ego problem that would IMHO JS preclude them from certain levels of sensitivity, introspection and self JS awareness that I tend to associate with the aquisition of wisdom. JS Just my two cents. JS Joe JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo, Back in '66 just after returning from the Nam I was hanging out with college kids and this prof who they hung out with started telling me about mensa and asked me if I wanted to test. I did test and was invited to join but first was invited to one of their meetings to check it out. Turned out that all these geniuses had all the answers to the problem in the Nam and that everyone else was just ignorant. That was enough for me. A bunch of arrogant clowns is what I found. Never set a foot in the Nam but knew all the answers. A partner of mine from the Detroit area tested a couple of years ago and did join but without going to a meeting first. He spent 1 year as a member and attended 2 of their meetings before coming to the same conclusion I had back in '66. Seems times had changed but mensa hadn't. All that being said, it is still wise to remember not to judge a book by its cover. There may be some decent ones out there. Happy Happy, Gustl On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 06:35:49 -0700 A. Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't really think he's Mensa level do you?? I think Keith nailed it with his comments about sociopathy... they too, are out there and have opinions - which unfortunately are often skewed by their disorder (when untreated) Life as we know it, goes on... - Original Message - From: Fred Finch To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 5:46 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] overly sensitive etc On 9/13/06, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're a noble man Fred. Sorry to say the chances of it happening would have been zilch. Would have been because it's too late for that, it went too far. I doubt an apology would have been acceptable anyway. Regards Keith I like to think that given a chance he might have come around. Alas, the decision has been made. This is the second Mensa clown that stumbled to the group only to make an ass out of himself. Why is that? Is there a requirement that you have to be heartless and souless to become a member? Perhaps they are too smart for their own good, fred On 9/13/06, Thor Burfine mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just have to say, I think its rather funny that my personal beliefs can cause such a shit storm -Original Message- From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] lelists.org [mailto:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]biofuel-bounces@ sustainablelists.org] On Behalf Of David Penfold Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:43 AM To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] overly sensitive etc Thor, it's not overly sensitive to dislike insinuations that you would be perfectly happy to use nuclear bombs on a whole region in order to get your oil. You're a small-minded idiot. Message: 9 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 08:58:24 -0700 From: Thor Burfine mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Disney To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org biofuel@sustainablelists.org Message-ID: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ced72aa8928b4ffdb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 The shit is stired, the tempers are up, the overly sensitive politicly correct are offended My work is done From: bob allen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:44 AM To: mailto: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Disney so mensa is a society for the insensitive, even cruel? Thor Burfine wrote: Actually, Mensa I just don't give a shi..
Re: [Biofuel] Personal Reflections on 9/11
Hallo, Why? Return good for evil. Love your enemies. Do unto others. Right Understanding, Thought, Speech, Action, Effort. Be wise as serpents but harmless as doves. Karma maybe if that's where you're at. Or, if that doesn't do it for you then just answer this question: Do you want to be like them? Haven't you learned from them how not to be? We need to do right because it is right and refrain from doing wrong. There is something shakey about doing right because it gets you something. And Jason. Anarcho-communist? Think about it. Anarchism implies self-control,self-discipline, responsibility,co-operation, restraint. Communism implies control of others and self (class) interest. How is it that some clown has paired those two? Go check out the anarchist FAQ's. What a hoot. Anarchism is incompatible with violence but reading them you would think otherwise. Anarchy (chaos) is what they are defining. Anarchism must be orderly, peaceful and voluntary to succeed. I suppose this all (love vs arsenic, anarchism vs anarcho-communism) gets back to definitions and meanings and who controls them and, perhaps oddly enough, truth and where one finds it. Examples? Well, what Christianity teaches doesn't always square with what Jesus taught and what modern anarchist thought teaches doesn't always square with what the originators of anarchism taught. It is a matter of convenience I think. Folks seem to think that if something inteferes with one of their cherished beliefs that a minor change here and there may be called for and doesn't alter the original proposition and that is just flat wrong. We need to be very careful with how we define things and more stringent with ourselves than we are with others. All too many times our cherished beliefs don't mean squat when researched and conversely they are often bolstered by the very same research. One persons conspiracy theory may or may not be an actual fact. Nothing sorts things out like the truth and one doesn't find that without research. If we look at my two examples, the teachings of Jesus vs the teachings of the apostles and disciples or the original definition of anarchism as opposed to the present melding of anarchism with political beliefs involving coercion and control, we will find that they do not square with one another. This is bound to piss off Christians and anarchists but it is what it is. If it can't stand up to rigorous inspection and questioning then it isn't worth squat. And just FYI I am a follower of Jesus but don't much care for all the additional garbage added by the various apostles and disciples and particularly the crap Paul has added. I do go on, don't I? But time to run and babysit for the grandkids. Happy Happy, Gustl Wednesday, 13 September, 2006, 00:05:51, you wrote: JK feed bush love? why not arsenic? JK Jason JK ICQ#: 154998177 JK MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] JK - Original Message - JK From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] JK To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org JK Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 10:52 PM JK Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Personal Reflections on 9/11 I second that. Really excellent writing from the heart. I feel that 9/11 changed me along the same lines as Darryl. I am more cautious now, but I still recognize the connectedness that Mike Dupree talked about. Bush represents the darkness in us that we must feed a lot of love to. Peace, D. Mindock -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Disney
Jano Bua, Du denkst: Macht es nicht. Jason denkt: Es macht mir nichts. Ich denke: Mir ist es Wurst. hihihi Mach's guat. ;o) Pfüatdigod und Happy Happy, Gustl Tuesday, 12 September, 2006, 06:14:30, you wrote: FF Eh Jason, FF Your german needs some workover too et means :dont due it! FF Fritz FF - Original Message - FF From: Jason Katie FF To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org FF Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 9:05 PM FF Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Disney FF your german needs work. Machs /nicht/ means it makes nothing or it doesnt matter Machs nich is a sneeze... ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] What Does the NSA Know About You?
An interesting read. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/44218 -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Anyone Who Opposes Israel is Labeled a Terrorist
Hallo Keith, I'm sure you remember this from the Oil and Israel days on the list. Thank goodness for cut and paste. I believe this can't hurt to be read again: Sunday, 30 July, 2006, 00:41:33, you wrote: KA http://www.counterpunch.org/prashad07292006.html KA Vijay Prashad: Cry Havoc KA Weekend Edition KA July 29/30 2006 KA Anyone Who Opposes Israel is Labeled a Terrorist ...snip... The Practice of Ritual Defamation How values, opinions and beliefs are controlled in democratic societies. Defamation is the destruction or attempted destruction of the reputation, status, character or standing in the community of a person or group of persons by unfair, wrongful, or malicious speech or publication. For the purposes of this essay, the central element is defamation in retaliation for the real or imagined attitudes, opinions or beliefs of the victim, with the intention of silencing or neutralizing his or her influence, and/or making an example of them so as to discourage similar independence and insensitivity or non-observance of taboos. It is different in nature and degree from simple criticism or disagreement in that it is aggressive, organized and skillfully applied, often by an organization or representative of a special interest group, and in that it consists of several characteristic elements. Ritual Defamation is not ritualistic because it follows any prescribed religious or mystical doctrine, nor is it embraced in any particular document or scripture. Rather, it is ritualistic because it follows a predictable, stereotyped pattern which embraces a number of elements, as in a ritual. The elements of a Ritual Defamation are these: 1.In a ritual defamation the victim must have violated a particular taboo in some way, usually by expressing or identifying with a forbidden attitude, opinion or belief. It is not necessary that he do anything about it or undertake any particular course of action, only that he engage in some form of communication or expression. 2. The method of attack in a ritual defamation is to assail the character of the victim, and never to offer more than a perfunctory challenge to the particular attitudes, opinions or beliefs expressed or implied. Character assassination is its primary tool. 3. An important rule in ritual defamation is to avoid engaging in any kind of debate over the truthfulness or reasonableness of what has been expressed, only condemn it. To debate opens the issue up for examination and discussion of its merits, and to consider the evidence that may support it, which is just what the ritual defamer is trying to avoid. The primary goal of a ritual defamation is censorship and repression. 4. The victim is often somebody in the public eye - someone who is vulnerable to public opinion - although perhaps in a very modest way. It could be a schoolteacher, writer, businessman, minor official, or merely an outspoken citizen. Visibility enhances vulnerability to ritual defamation. An attempt, often successful, is made to involve others in the defamation. 5. In the case of a public official, other public officials will be urged to denounce the offender. In the case of a student, other students will be called upon, and so on. 6. In order for a ritual defamation to be effective, the victim must be dehumanized to the extent that he becomes identical with the offending attitude, opinion or belief, and in a manner which distorts it to the point where it appears at its most extreme. For example, a victim who is defamed as a subversive will be identified with the worst images of subversion, such as espionage, terrorism or treason. A victim defamed as a pervert will be identified with the worst images of perversion, including child molestation and rape. A victim defamed as a racist or anti-Semitic will be identified with the worst images of racism or anti-Semitism, such as lynchings or gas chambers. 7. Also to be successful, a ritual defamation must bring pressure and humiliation on the victim from every quarter, including family and friends. If the victim has school children, they may be taunted and ridiculed as a consequence of adverse publicity. If they are employed, they may be fired from their job. If the victim belongs to clubs or associations, other members may be urged to expel them. 8. Any explanation the victim may offer, including the claim of being misunderstood, is considered irrelevant. To claim truth as a defense for a politically incorrect value, opinion or belief is interpreted as defiance and only compounds the problem. Ritual defamation is often not necessarily an issue of being wrong or incorrect but rather of insensitivity and failing to observe social taboos. An interesting aspect of ritual defamation as a practice is its universality. It is not specific to any
Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down
Hallo MR, Monday, 26 June, 2006, 16:33:10, you wrote: MR Hi John, MR I don't mean to be a pain in the ass And I do. ;o) MR but, your focus is on company profits, re-issue of currency, and MR monetary greed - not a common denominator in an explanation on why MR both capitalist and communist societies would fail. As it should be. Greed, mammon, lust for power and control. Pretty much all just different slices of the same pie. MR At least for now, it's not an explanation that makes sense to me. MR More to the point, governments irrespective of the model they MR follow, fail because citizens do not realize the importance of MR participation (IMHO). Now brother, take a look at what you are talking about, or at least what I think you are talking about. I think you are trying to address a problem of morality with politics. Also, it is interesting that so many folks think capitalism and communism are political systems when they are economic systems at their root, branch and leaf. These systems are all concerned with who controls the wealth. Politics is perhaps more how it is controlled. Things have become blurred with time. Then again I could have it all wrong. hahaha The problem is a moral one not one of participation. If the participants don't have a high moral standard but are rather on the low side of the scale are you going to like what you get even with 100% participation? How about if the participants are dumber than clams and docile as sheep and those at the top are greedy swine (sound at all familiar), but you are getting 100% participation? Heart changes - mind follows. I would say to get the heart right and associate informally, create networks, which would obviate the necessity of government and be there in the event of a catastrophic failure of some sort from whatever cause, natural, political or otherwise. Participate as one is able and inclined, but don't get lost on the way from here to there. Make sure that you are part of the backup system with a heart. Be prepared to give and receive help as necessary and as able. Ready for the broken record part? Requirements are self-restraint, -discipline, a healthy sense of responsibility, love of ones neighbors and recognition that we are ALL neighbors, co-operation, non-violence, non-resistance (returning good for evil-you can't teach non-violence by coercion of any sort), loving service to ones neighbors (see above), sharing your toys (knowledge, skills, time, food, tools, whatever is necessary to get the job done). Oh Lord, patience! Recognizing that all the folks aren't evil they just don't know any better. Build on the positive things brother. Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative. How could I forget that? This is all religion to me. Others call it something else and that is fine, no problem, but for me it is a matter of religion. Not the go to the organized church every Sunday, one way and only one way type of thing which is creed and dogma not religion, but the love your neighbor as yourself and display the fruits of that love by service to your neighbors type of religion. No, not humanism. It is a thing where some of the attributes can be shown but not all and it is beyond description and definition. If you can put it in a box it isn't the thing. The real leaders do so by example not because they have control. Does anyone think Bush is a leader? He is a controller. Flat out. The leaders are out there in their communities making a real, lasting difference. They aren't looking for votes or trying to control others they are helping others. If it requires a thank you it is neither a gift nor is it free. Well, brother, you have had enough of my blather by now I suspect. I will turn the same old same old off. Well maybe not. It is what is right not what is accepted or legal. Take care. Stay well and happy. Happy Happy, Gustl MR - Redler MR John Mullan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MR I believe that either economic model (communist or capitalist) is MR destined to collapse, sooner or later. One of the main factors being MR greed. Greed is what causes inflation. Companies are driven to make MR more profit. People need more income to purchase the higher priced MR items they need AND want (ie; form of greed). MR In my area, I know many people earning minimum wage (Canada) and even MR simple one-room apartments tax their ability to have any disposable MR income. But there are also many companies that would be hard pressed to MR increase their prices such as to pay significantly more than minimum MR wage and still have a decent customer base. MR Add to the picture the coming death of cheap energy and the picture MR becomes even more bleak. MR Economic crash and the re-issue of currency has happened before and has MR to happen again. To
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Hallo Jim, Wednesday, 14 June, 2006, 00:56:51, you wrote: J Excellent Piece Keith, I did enjoy it and must agree. J I may add to the argument that is stated, J primal conviction that killing is wrong. It is just plain wrong to J take another animal's life unnecessarily; it is bloody, brutal, and J barbaric. J If this is true then why is the Wolf wired to kill (among so many J others)? Some may even say that the wolf does not kill unnecessarily. J That is not always the case and has been well documented. Lets face the J facts the planet is a food chain that involves killing and we were once J a part of that in a big way. Only the protections of our technology can J take us out of the cycle where we are among the hunted as well as the J hunter. J Jim Are you saying then that human beings are on the same evolutionary level with wolves or other critters then brother? The planet is a food chain? OK, then is it your position that because the planet is a food chain that a bull, let's say, ought to trample a smaller animal or even a human being and consume them? The ought to be carnivorous or omnivorous because everything else is a potential food source? Or are you positing that we have the right to slaughter animals for food, sport, pleasure, whim because we happen to be a more highly evolved link in the food chain despite knowing that we now have the knowledge and ability to lead perfectly healthy and healthful lives on a vegetarian diet? And no brother, I am not trying to be confrontational and yes, I do eat meat, but your Lets face the facts the planet is a food chain that involves killing argument doesn't wash, at least not the way I read it. The implication of your argument seems to be necessarily as opposed to willfully. And if you wish to stand by your wolf analogy then there seems to be no reason for someone not to come over and kill and eat your parents, siblings, friends, neighbors, family, or you, etc. when they have a good case of the munchies. After all, we're talking protein here. Screw beans and rice. The only things which require justification are those things which are wrong, e.g., justifiable homicide. That which is right stands on its own. One would be better served to say, I kill and eat animals because I can. Simple, straightforward and honest. It might also serve to give an introspective person something to think about. Happy Happy, Gustl J Keith Addison wrote: http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.html The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View By Charles Eisenstein Most vegetarians I know are not primarily motivated by nutrition. Although they argue strenuously for the health benefits of a vegetarian diet, many see good health as a reward for the purity and virtue of a vegetarian diet, or as an added bonus. In my experience, a far more potent motivator among vegetarians-ranging from idealistic college students, to social and environmental activists, to adherents of Eastern spiritual traditions like Buddhism and Yoga-is the moral or ethical case for not eating meat. Enunciated with great authority by such spiritual luminaries as Mahatma Gandhi, and by environmental crusaders such as Frances Moore Lappe, the moral case against eating meat seems at first glance to be overpowering. As a meat eater who cares deeply about living in harmony with the environment, and as an honest person trying to eliminate hypocrisy in the way I live, I feel compelled to take these arguments seriously. A typical argument goes like this: In order to feed modern society's enormous appetite for meat, animals endure unimaginable suffering in conditions of extreme filth, crowding and confinement. Chickens are packed twenty to a cage, hogs are kept in concrete stalls so narrow they can never turn around. Arguing for the Environment The cruelty is appalling, but no less so than the environmental effects. Meat animals are fed anywhere from five to fifteen pounds of vegetable protein for each pound of meat produced-an unconscionable practice in a world where many go hungry. Whereas one-sixth an acre of land can feed a vegetarian for a year, over three acres are required to provide the grain needed to raise a year's worth of meat for the average meat-eater. All too often, so the argument goes, those acres consist of clear-cut rain forests. The toll on water resources is equally grim: the meat industry accounts for half of US water consumption-2500 gallons per pound of beef, compared to 25 gallons per pound of wheat. Polluting fossil fuels are another major input into meat production. As for the output, 1.6 million tons of livestock manure pollutes our drinking water. And let's not forget the residues of antibiotics and synthetic hormones that are increasingly showing up in municipal water supplies. Even without considering the question of taking life (I'll get to that later),
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Hallo Kirk, Tuesday, 13 June, 2006, 22:01:59, you wrote: KM A friend of mine raises cattle on the highline in Montana. It takes 40 acres to support 1 cow. The land is useless for agriculture as it is too dry and there is no water for irrigation. Without KM cattle it would yield nothing to eat unless you want to munch on the native bunch grasses. KM Kirk Justification again brother. My brother-in-law is a very wealthy farmer in Ohio. Buys, feeds and sells cattle for beef. He does till the soil, some 2,500 acres but he doesn't want the family telling anyone that he got free sludge from the Toledo, Ohio sewage facility which was chuck full of PCB and spread it over his entire farm and then grew crops on that land. He runs somewhere over 1,500 head of cattle and they exist in the most appalling conditions. For the sake of clarity I will use the vernacular here: they stand in shit up to their knees when they are in the older barns. In the newer buildings there is a tank which holds the manure which is liquified and spread on his fields. Each animal produces about 40 pounds of manure per day 365 days a year. We all share the water table in this area. Many of the animals have large open sores on them, damaged eyes or legs due to overcrowding. When my wife took our grandkids over to see his farm she did not know the conditions as she hadn't been to that part of the farm for years. My brother- and sister-in-law do not live where they keep the cattle. My wife was horrified and the grandkids sickened by what they saw. I asked my brother-in-law why he didn't just raise crops and he answered, Because I like cattle and being around them. His wife and kids are lucky he doesn't show his affection for them in the same way he does for his livestock. And he is a nice guy. I like him despite his overwhelming love for G.W. Brother, your friend and my brother-in-law made conscious choices as do we all. And yes, I eat meat and no, I am not holier than thou. I just like honesty, or I don't like sophistry (and I mean this in the way Friends use the word which is getting around something by making something less simple, or as I would say, by being less than honest and forthright-justifying something which is wrong), whichever way you prefer it. Your friend and my brother-in-law don't have to do what they do. There is always more than an either/or choice but we humans all too often do what is easiest (even if it involves hard, backbreaking work) rather than what may be best for us and the planet. Ah, well. :o) Happy Happy, Gustl KM pan ruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: KM Dear and respected Keith and our list members KM Well and thank you to bring again for old debate on the SACRED COW, which had very good impact , even though very hot controversial debate in our list last time . KM Let us again have good debate on this good topic as we do have several eastern , western list members of all culture and countries.I think this topic need not be considered off topic , but KM very important one related with sustainability and wish to thank for the same KM Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.html KM The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View KM By KM I will not contest any of the above statistics, except to say that KM they only describe the meat industry as it exists today. They KM constitute a compelling argument against the meat industry, not KM meat-eating. For in fact, there are other ways of raising animals for KM food, ways that make livestock an environmental asset rather than a KM liability, and in which animals do not lead lives of suffering. KM Consider, for example, a traditional mixed farm combining a variety KM of crops, pasture land and orchards. Here, manure is not a pollutant KM or a waste product; it is a valuable resource contributing to soil KM fertility. Instead of taking grain away from the starving millions, KM pastured animals actually generate food calories from land unsuited KM to tillage. When animals are used to do work-pulling plows, eating KM bugs and turning compost-they reduce fossil fuel consumption and the KM temptation to use pesticides. Nor do animals living outdoors require KM a huge input of water for sanitation. KM __ KM Do You Yahoo!? KM Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around KM http://mail.yahoo.com ___ KM Biofuel mailing list KM Biofuel@sustainablelists.org KM http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org KM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: KM http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html KM Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): KM http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Hallo Robert, Wednesday, 14 June, 2006, 01:21:48, you wrote: ...snip... rabr Hmm . . . Maybe that's not what the scriptures are referring to, rabr anyway. Maybe I'd better go back and read that verse again. And then, rabr isn't there something about fishermen spreading nets along the River of rabr Life in the book of Ezekiel? Hmm . . . So it's morally ok to eat rabr fish, but not cow, or turkey? Didn't Jesus eat lamb? Oh, the moral rabr dilemma! ...snip... I don't remember reading where it says they were right in doing it, just that it was done. Necessity and local customs/usage don't make something moral. Expedient and justifiable perhaps, but not moral. hehehe ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism
Hallo Folks, Saturday, 13 May, 2006, 07:07:20, you wrote: DM This is kooky stuff, but these Dominionists are part of the base DM of BushCo. IMO, they've highjacked Christianity and made it into a DM perversely dark image of itself. DM Peace, D. Mindock Christian reconstructionism or dominionism use the language of the religious right but they are not Christian by any means. Bush and his crew are dominionists themselves. This is an evil lot. The organized church hijacked the teachings and religion of Jesus (which was not Judaism despite his being raised a Jew) so the dominionists had a good example to follow. And no, I do not wish to nor will I get into a theological discussion of the bit I put in parens about Jesus religion as my time and energy is needed elswhere presently. I will say that if you want to know what I mean that you mind the indwelling light and let that lead you to an understanding. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] PLEASE READ - Re: Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Hallo Keith, Just in case people weren't around during the time the list suffered from the denial of service and mail flooding time let me tell that when we changed servers it was me, Gustl Steiner-Zehender, who called for donations to defray costs not you. I handled the money and saw that it was all accounted for and properly distributed. I also was responsible for receipts for donations and due to computer problems and lost information I think that may have been mishandled although not intentionally. I believe I still owe a fellow living in Saudi Arabia a receipt for his very generous donation although it has taken me a lot of remembering to come up with that. Whoever it was please drop me an email and I will get that receipt out to you and please forgive me for the oversight. It was definitely not intentional. Again, just to be clear. Keith had absolutely NOTHING to do with the request for donations at all. It was all done by another sick old man by the name of Gustl Steiner-Zehender. Happy Happy, Gustl Saturday, 06 May, 2006, 16:05:51, you wrote: ...snip... KA The official sewer rat at Infopop and some other folks from there KA lurk around here at the Biofuel list archives like, well, like KA sewer rats, sniffing about and telling the same sort of stuff KA offlist to new members and inviting them to Infopop. List members KA complain about it. Here's one, we have quite a few, not only from KA this one, similar stuff from the Appleseed Queen and so on, whose KA biodiesel book Joe Street didn't seem to like much: Please be aware that the vast majority of the biodiesel world holds Keith Addison and his Journey to Forever site in total contempt. Keith Addison is a sick old man who begs for money on his Journey to Forever site, supposedly to help the poor and needy but he actually uses the money donated to him for his day to day expenses. The Journey to Forever site is Keith's Retirement income, is vastly out of date, and contains inaccurate and phony biodiesel information. If you are more interested in making biodiesel that listening to a Psychotic old man rant about the evils of the world, I suggest you join the Infopop biodiesel website at (I have snipped the url here. I won't advertise for that lot.) Tell them a Kindly Elf sent you. Squire Tilly KE ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
in Hungary. The only reason I got the clearance is because his entire division was wiped out by the Soviets before I was born and both my father and step-father had served in the Army during the war. This was in 1962. Seventeen years after the end of the war. I asked my Oma about this relative and she told me he was a really nice guy but she hadn't seen him or had any contact with him since she had come to this country when she was 12. Having a curious nature I began a pretty intensive study of history to see what these folks were all about, why the war happened in the first place and what had happened since. Now I'm not sure how anyone else analyzes their data, but I attempt (and am generally successful) to do so with an open mind and without prejudice one way or the other and draw my conclusions from that analysis while remaining open to new evidence. The United States cannot be compared to post WWI Germany in any way. The conditions here do not correspond to those in Germany at that time and making comparisons based on that data will and does lead to false conclusions. Apples and oranges brother. MR I will persist in standing along side my friends and being heard. MR I will continue to do what I can for organizers with the prospect MR of some day becoming an organizers (if I am needed in that roll). Peace would be better served by holding a peaceful rally away from the location of the Nazi's and drawing as many folks as possible to that rally which emphasizes positive and peaceful action rather than giving attention to the negative vibes coming from those others. MR My motivation comes from people like MLK, Gandhi, the Freedom MR Riders and Reverend Martin Neimoller (among others) who speak, MR even from beyond the grave, of their experience and who stress the MR importance of NOT LEAVING THEM ALONE. But of whom are you speaking here?Responsible, restrained, disciplined and peaceful people and organizations which would not be provoked to return violence for violence. No hate speech coming from their mouths. No returning tit for tat. They just kept coming and turning the other cheek until their goals had been peacefully reached. I have a sheet of paper on my cork board in fron of my desk on which I have copied from somewhere (those not liking references to God please stop reading): What does it do for the human soul? Does it bring God to man and man to God? Never hesitate to embrace truth no matter where it appears to come from. Be positive in your exhortations. Do not emphasize evil by forbidding it. This seems to me to be good advice. For the first proposition folks could replace God and soul with something which suits their particular system of belief or philosophy (if it is peaceful and positive) and it still works. For the second proposition read the Koran or Das Kapital or Mein Kampf and you will find truth there as well. Pick the flowers out of the manure and leave the manure lay. The same goes for the Old and New Testament of the Christian scriptures. If one can only find flowers and no manure there then one does not comprehend completely what they read. It also probably means that they lack faith and have a need for the concrete assurances of a signed contract which can be upheld by law. Sad. As concerns the third proposition, the carrot is always better than the stick. The stick may bring about the desired results sooner, but it also brings with it resentment and the possibility of the stick changing hands and being used on oneself. Anyhow brother, this is what I meant in my mail. I hope this mail better suits than the last one. Clarity and understanding are important. You may not agree with me, but that is fine with me as well. We need not agree on everything to be friends. Disagreement and debate definitely has its place. If it does nothing else it causes one to examine their own position and gives them the opportunity to adjust themselves to be in accord with what is right and true if they are shown to be lacking or to show them that they are headed in the right direction. We should welcome honest debate and criticism from any direction. It is or can be a very helpful tool. Take care brother. Stay well and happy. Happy Happy, Gustl MR Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MR Hallo Mike, MR Well, Toledo, Ohio is close enough to me to call it my neck of the MR woods. Oddly enough so are Detroit, Ann Arbor and Lansing, Michigan. MR The Nazis came to Toledo and applied for their permit and held their MR rally and the people who didn't like the Nazis attacked them and gave MR them a boatload of publicity and gave the Nazis the chance to say, MR You see what those people are like? Just like we told you. MR Perhaps not oddly enough I have seen right-to-lifers attack those MR backing abortion who turned around
Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
Hallo Mike, Saturday, 22 April, 2006, 11:14:02, you wrote: MR Wow Gustl! MR That was quite a comprehensive response. I see logic and reason in MR all of it and I agree with nearly all of it. Thank you. I try. Sometimes it works and sometimes not, but I do try. MR You mentioned Mein Kampf. To my knowledge, I had at least one MR distant relative executed by the Nazis (he was German and not MR Jewish) and another who hid a Jew until the end of the war (They MR later married). My strong dislike of Nazism and the ignorance of MR some who wear the hackenkreuz without fully understanding what it MR means, is very disturbing. I only read the first 300 pages of the MR book (my paperback copy) before losing interest and becoming MR disgusted with the 600+ page rant which (IMO) just recycled the MR same crap over and over again. Jews, Czechs, Poles, bla, bla bla. MR He hated everyone! This is something we could spend a long time on but it isn't worth the trouble. I personally have a strong dislike of all governments while understanding the need for them given our evolution as a society (worldwide, not just the US). Hitler certainly had a lot more to say about the Slavs than he did of the Jews and held a lot more hate for the Slavs. If the notion ever strikes you read a lot of Mircea Eliade, Joseph Cambell, Carl Jung and some Heinrich Zimmer just for drill and then keeping what you have learned in mind find and read The Young Hitler I Knew by August Kubizek and then re-read Mein Kampf and see what you come up with. I think you will be surprised how differently you look at things, but perhaps not. It won't justify Hitler and what he did but it will give you an understanding of how his mind worked and why he did what he did if you can remain dispassionate which is not easy to do. And a note about the swastika. It has been a positive religious symbol for millenia and it is a shame that we in the west have let the misuse of this symbol taint our way of thinking about it. It is still in wide use in the east as a respected religious symbol and it pops up in places one would not think it would be if their only experience with it is during the Hitlerzeit. There is a swastika border around the walls of the supreme court and there are swastikas in ancient temples in Israel. The swastika is the innocent victim of willful misuse and should not suffer because of that. It was also the first Christian symbol called the crux gammada and it symbolized the trinity. MR You wrote: The United States cannot be compared to post WWI MR Germany in any way. MR ...in any way? I think that the Weimar Republic was an early MR redistribution of power for which the powerful (or those with MR ambitions of being powerful) did not stand. Although the events at MR the end of the Weimar republic does not exactly match our own, the MR US government actively seeks ways to keep down public MR participation in a true democracy. I concede that the similarities MR end there. I believe I will stick by my statement for the most part. All governments do what you suggest. I have no argument there. But I would compare the Weimar Republic more to the situation of and government of Iraq. It was/is an imposed system from a foreign conqueror in both cases. Germany had the Kaiser and Iraq Sadaam and both had just lost a war. Just as in post war Germany there are warring factions which like neither the government nor each other and there is civil strife and unrest and war. We will have to hide and watch to see if Iraq ends up like Weimar. Good talking with you brother. Again, I apologize for the necessity of my late reply. Happy Happy, Gustl MR Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MR Hallo Michael, MR Again, as I said to you privately, sorry to take so long to answer MR this. Things have been somewhat difficult in many different areas MR here and I have not been able to attend to this until now. And my MR mail was meant to point out what I have witnessed in the past and was MR not aimed at you or yours in any manner. MR Sunday, 16 April, 2006, 19:35:57, you wrote: MR Hallo Gustl, MR Well, after participating in peaceful protests for the past three MR or four years in Connecticut and New York, I have to strongly MR disagree with you assessment. MR Neither me or anyone of my brothers and sisters demonstrating with MR me would see any gain in becoming violent. Ironically, it's for MR the reasons you mention that violence is not part of the strategy. MR Every intervention I've participated in ended in outnumbering and MR embarrassing our opponents by singing, chanting and leafleting (if MR permitted) and generally exposing them and the twisted MR interpretation of the issues they represent. MR You misunderstand me perhaps. This was a general statement of what I MR
Re: [Biofuel] [SPAM] Re: Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hallo, Thank you. I am always up for good stuff I haven't heard. I had the good fortune to be born into a family which loved music. I lived the better part of my life with my grandparents (Opa born 1898 Oma 1904) and I grew up listening to their oldies on cylinder records. Then I got all the 78 rpm stuff as well. We lived near Detroit and my mother used to listen to the race stations in Detroit. Then rock and roll came onto the scene and my mother went nuts. Loved it. And when the family got together for the holidays everyone brought their instruments and we all went into the basement and played together. Everyone liked something different so we all listened to it all. I will find what you have suggested and give it a listen if I am able. I may even have the Peter Gabriel album. I haven't looked through my albums in years and back in the '70's I had over 600 albums and tapes stolen from me while I was moving from Detroit to Flint. :o/ It may have been among them. Thank you kindly again. Happy Happy, Gustl Thursday, 13 April, 2006, 22:32:14, you wrote: GLG May I be so bold as to make my own suggestions to you sir? GLG Brian Protheroe: I/You, Pinball GLG Peter Gabriel: The first album only, right after leaving Genesis- GLG very eclectic, even has some barbershop quartet. Everything after GLG that was strictly commercial. GLG On 14 Apr 2006, at 06:26, Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: find Willis Alan Ramsey. He only made one album and it had his name. Every song on the thing is a winner. My taste in music is eclectic in the extreme. -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...
Hallo Mike, Well, Toledo, Ohio is close enough to me to call it my neck of the woods. Oddly enough so are Detroit, Ann Arbor and Lansing, Michigan. The Nazis came to Toledo and applied for their permit and held their rally and the people who didn't like the Nazis attacked them and gave them a boatload of publicity and gave the Nazis the chance to say, You see what those people are like? Just like we told you. Perhaps not oddly enough I have seen right-to-lifers attack those backing abortion who turned around and said about the same thing the Nazis did and have seen peace demonstrators attack their opponents who repeated virtually the same line. The smart thing to do would be to give the Nazis their permit and allow them their little march and stay away from them and ignore them, but you have the idiot press covering them and reporting every burp or fart and stirring up people so they can get some news, maybe even make it into the national media. I would guess that you will have the same crap there as we did here in Toledo. Ten, fifteen people marching for or against something and the press coming in and stirring up a mess because they have nothing better to do. After all, nothing much going on anywhere. :o/ Happy Happy, Gustl Friday, 14 April, 2006, 16:55:02, you wrote: MR Since peaceful demonstrations have been a lively topic lately, MR here's what's happening in my neck of the woods. MR I'll let you know how it turns out. MR Mike ...large snip of article... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hallo Jesse, Hey dere! So how's by you, eh? Well, I know a fellow named Mark who used to live in Manchester, Michigan. Wednesday, 12 April, 2006, 18:00:11, you wrote: mm Hi Gustl, Mike, mm No one ever answers my posts (except Keith, our hero), so I can mm blithely write on this delightfully off-topic topic. ...snip... mm Balance of idealism and practicality indeed. But what kid is mm practical? Bringing up the question of when is it that human mm beings become 1) aware of their mortaility 2) humbled by it 3) mm able to get anybody to listen to them. I mean this not mm morphologically, but as a maturity thing. mm Kids today! So accountable! Like THEY have to fix everything. mm While listening to the Beatles!!! (I have not criticized my mm children on this, incidentally, they are still impressed that I mm know all the words.) Well, I just arrived home and downloaded my mail and see that Keith has already answered you. The only things I have to add are that it is the balance which is of primary importance and I like Frank Sinatra as well as Frank Zappa. Well, I guess I should add that if you want to hear the best album ever recorded, IMNSHO, try and find Willis Alan Ramsey. He only made one album and it had his name. Every song on the thing is a winner. My taste in music is eclectic in the extreme. We once had to write an essay on our favorite type of music and it wouldn't have taken me an essay to tell that...good music. You know it when you hear it even if you don't understand the language the words are in or recognize the instruments which are being played. ;o) Hope you get some other answers brother. I can't imagine Keith being the only one to answer any post on this list. hahaha Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [SPAM] Re: Fw: Honoring the Sacred Core of Islam
Hallo Gary, Tuesday, 11 April, 2006, 21:42:53, you wrote: GLG Keith, GLG Got you copy of Overnight Sensation on the shelves somewhere? ...have you guessed it yet? I'm the slime oozing out of your TV set. Great album! Happy Happy, Gustl GLG On 11 Apr 2006, at 23:45, Keith Addison wrote: You might enjoy this. 1981. Nobody listened. Frank Zappa on Crossfire, 1986 -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hallo Mike, Friday, 07 April, 2006, 20:04:32, you wrote: MW Uh, Yeah. Dude. MW We had all these great ideas, then we got really stoned and it MW drifted away. Actually brother, money entered the picture and the better portion of us just melded into the system. Seems like somehow folks just never learned to get the right balance of idealism and practicality. And with all the isms the we became exclusionary rather than inclusive and we started down that gradual slope. It really is a question of balance isn't it? MW Then it was the 80's. And here they slowly come again. MW Bummer Far out... Happy Happy, Gustl ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: How To Steal an Election
Hallo , Friday, 24 March, 2006, 22:22:53, you wrote: ES KEITH! ES Finally. Someone else has said it... ES But Kerry, and Gore before him, would only have meant business as ES usual anyway,different band, same old song, everybody hates it. Don't ES you have any rock'n'roll? ES While I certainly don't advocate *not* voting, I'm glad someone has ES pointed out that alternative elected individuals would not have meant ES a deviation from the status quo. And why not? A choice between Tweedledum and Tweedledee is no choice at all but rather illusion. The lesser of two evils is still evil. If there is going to be change voting isn't going to do it nor is violence. Person to person, heart to heart. Co-operation, discipline, restraint, responsibility. You have to have a good foundation on which to build otherwise the building will be unstable. There is no us and them, only we. Us and them is a distraction which gets our attention diverted so the self interest of the few can be imposed on the many. Pollution and global warming and wars may not kill us but our grandchildren and great-grandchildren? Well, I've got mine, too bad about you. I'd grow a tin beak and pick shit with the chickens rather than think like that (not that you do friend-general thought). Voting isn't going to cut it and neither is revolution. It is an evolutionary process. First you recognize and see the dots then you connect them then you tell your family and neighbors and it goes from there. And when you analzye your data use an absolutely unjaundiced and unprejudiced eye otherwise you will get it wrong.No self-interest, no cherished beliefs, no financial or political bias. Vote if you must but that just helps perpetuate the swindle. If you know the game is crooked and you enter it anyway then there is no room for pissing and moaning. Either way be prepared to suffer. It is like charging hills in boot camp. Just one more hill, one more step. Just don't give up. The good thing is that when you are charging the hills there are a lot of folks running along with you. Plenty of them here to help encourage and sustain one. Happy Happy, Gustl ES Don't get me wrong, nobody's getting my DNA w/o a fight. -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: How To Steal an Election
Hallo, When folks start chopping up mails to answer them it leaves a lot to be desired. Pulling things out of context, omitting things, changing meanings in the middle of the game. Sounds very like how organized religion works. Saturday, 25 March, 2006, 13:59:08, you wrote: ES Why not? Well, I'll tell you the one, single, solitary reason I ES classify myself as one of those dirty republicans...but I tell you I'm ES so close to the fence it's amazing. This is somewhat confusing. To which fence in particular are you so close? ES That reason is that I want power locally, in the hands of small, ES local government, local voters, and local business. I'm not naive ES enough to believe that many of the most important policy decisions ES are made in this fashion--but I cling to the hope, just like many ES of you cling to the hope that the policies you hate will change ES simply by more people getting mad about them. If you remember I was responding to this: But Kerry, and Gore before him, would only have meant business as usual anyway,different band, same old song, everybody hates it. Don't you have any rock'n'roll? Admittedly I came in in the middle of a discussion, but Kerry and Gore are hardly local players. What does your reply have to do with national politics, or have I missed something and was it local politics the discussion was about? If so please pardon me for being hasty and not having the good sense to inform myself as to the context of the discussion. ES I believe that it's perfectly, 100% acceptable for people in one ES community to be ok with things that other people think are horrible, ES and to have different opinions of what laws and products are most ES important for every day life. ES I think that one of the big rifts in America is, simply, what people ES think are important items for daily life. I'm surrounded by moderaly ES poor Americans, ones whose focus is surviving, day to day, who don't ES have time to concentrate on foreign policy or environmentalism, and ES until some golden grail of welfare reform sweeps across the nation, ES they MUST be allowed to continue as they have...they must continue to ES get services until it can be fixed...Their concern has to focus on ES feeding their family, because that is their immediate necessity. Do I ES believe these people will vote differently than, say, people in Vale ES Colorado on environmental and tax issues? OF COURSE I DO, and I think ES it's perfectly acceptable. Like I said, until the changes that we all ES want actually happen, certain individuals must be allowed to maintain ES the status quo. Does this mean we are back to national politics or? ES Now...continuing on that line of thought, in America, we have primary ES elections. And before primary elections, we have races. And in those ES races, its peoples obligation to learn about candidates and, if they ES can, financially support them. IF you especially support someone, you ES tell people about them, and you vote with your wallet just as much as ES your ballot. Please explain, in detail, how it is anyone's obligation to participate in any kind of races or elections in this land of liberty. Specifically, explain to me how it is MY obligation to involve myself in the workings of a corrupt and, as I see it, evil system. ES Now, why do I not advocate not-voting at General Election scale? ES Because then you're giving the fruitcake wingers (left and right) the ES power to control the government, and that's extra scary on either ES side. Even if you arrange a wide-scale voting protest, probably ES ESPECIALLY if you arrange it, that's when the fringes will ally and ES block vote and ruin everything...and/or you'll see the ES third-party-disrupting-the-democrat-vote-phenomenon even harder. ES And...if you just decide not to vote on your own to show 'em who's ES boss, to me that's like saying I'm going to dump this $2.50 a gallon ES gasoline down the drain to protest gas prices. Are you answering more than just my mail here or are you just ad-libbing what you think I believe? ES Almost like this guy, but not as extreme: ES http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/07/21/international/i22D12.DTL ES http://clublet.com/house?page=MarkMcGowan GSZ Person to person, heart to heart. Co-operation, discipline, GSZ restraint, responsibility. ES That's great, and when the carebear song is over, we'll focus back on ES reality It would be nice for you to define reality and then defend that definition. You will not be able to adequately defend it. ES and understand that even if we can get hundreds of thousands ES of people to randomly give up the ideas of Getting ahead, getting ES wealthy, and punishment, they'll still get kicked in the face ES by...well, everyone. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a socialistic ES gated community start, but like I said in my senior thesis, socialism ES will never
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: How To Steal an Election
Hallo, Saturday, 25 March, 2006, 17:43:30, you wrote: ES I apologize for not taking the time to consult the character map for ES the S set, having spent significant time in Bayern myself I tend to ES drop these things, as well as umlauts in lieu of e's. ES Beyond that, I did not respond in a hostile fashion, and was responded ES to as such, so I will cease arguing. ES You apparently did no better parsing my meaning than I apparently did yours. ES Peace... Peace-without hesitation. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
Hallo All, I received this exchange which has been taking place among some of my friends. Any comments? They will be forwarded by me to these folks. Happy Happy, Gustl This is a forwarded message From: Donald Bauman To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, 12 October, 2005, 07:08:11 Subject: fyi ==Original message text=== Just two quick comments, then off to bed. Item 1. Hybrid cars: Find the right person to ask, ask publically, and put the answer in print: Why is it that four years ago hybrids got 50 mpg, and now they get 25 mpg? What's the point? Item 2. More efficient factories: There isn't a manufacturer anywhere that wouldn't do that. Exactly why aren't they? And just in general: Proper thinking about conservation, ecology, economics, and the environment should be primarily concerned with the conservation of energy, not matter. Recycling plastic bottles, for example, costs a great deal in energy, more than the simple disposal would have cost. So if recycling is not necessarily a good alternative, because it's a losing proposition as far as energy is concerned, then what might be a better alternative? It might take a careful study to actually do the math, but maybe a return to glass would be better, since it's reusable. There might be less energy lost in washing glass bottles than recycling plastic ones. (I recycle plastic bottles for a living, but it bothers me sometimes. I just haven't done the study or the math to know for sure. And in my own defense, some of the important numbers are not readily available, since they are proprietary to the recycling operations.) At this point, and in the current world economy, energy ! almost always goes directly back to the consumption of fossil fuels. So, to semi-pun a phrase, we need to be watching our calories not our weights. Night all. Don Bill Hart wrote: ROY-- These are all laudable goals, but they still need to be translated into specific objectives. I can see George-W's people agreeing with all of them and not changing a thing (that's been his pattern). BILL - Original Message - From: Roy Silver To: Cubbedge, Skip ; Hart, Bill Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 7:48 PM Subject: fyi Skip Bill, I came accross this ten point plan from the Appollo Project that seems like a reasonable place to start on diversifying our energy sources. Among all of the proposals I believe that we need to invest more resources in R D. - The Ten-Point Plan for Good Jobs and Energy Independence http://www.apolloalliance.org/strategy_center/a_bold_energy_and_jobs_policy/ten_point_plan.cfm 1. Promote Advanced Technology Hybrid Cars: Begin today to provide incentives for converting domestic assembly lines to manufacture highly efficient cars, transitioning the fleet to American made advanced technology vehicles, increasing consumer choice and strengthening the US auto industry. 2. Invest In More Efficient Factories: Make innovative use of the tax code and economic development systems to promote more efficient and profitable manufacturing while saving energy through environmental retrofits, improved boiler operations, and industrial cogeneration of electricity, retaining jobs by investing in plants and workers. 3. Encourage High Performance Building: Increase investment in construction of green buildings and energy efficient homes and offices through innovative financing and incentives, improved building operations, and updated codes and standards, helping working families, businesses, and government realize substantial cost savings. 4. Increase Use of Energy Efficient Appliances: Drive a new generation of highly efficient manufactured goods into widespread use, without driving jobs overseas, by linking higher energy standards to consumer and manufacturing incentives that increase demand for new durable goods and increase investment in US factories. 5. Modernize Electrical Infrastructure: Deploy the best available technology like scrubbers to existing plants, protecting jobs and the environment; research new technology to capture and sequester carbon and improve transmission for distributed renewable generation. 6. Expand Renewable Energy Development: Diversify energy sources by promoting existing technologies in solar, biomass and wind while setting ambitious but achievable goals for increasing renewable generation, and promoting state and local policy innovations that link clean energy and jobs. 7. Improve Transportation Options: Increase mobility, job access, and transportation choice by investing in effective multimodal networks including bicycle, local bus and rail transit, regional high-speed rail and magnetic levitation rail projects. 8. Reinvest In Smart Urban Growth: Revitalize urban centers to promote strong cities and good jobs, by rebuilding and upgrading local infrastructure including road maintenance, bridge repair, and water and waste water
Re: [Biofuel] Google laugh
Hallo Todd, Wednesday, 12 October, 2005, 08:48:53, you wrote: AE Gustl, AE When Tweedle Dum doesn't care squat about energy, health, environment AE and social issues, but Tweedle Dum by and large does, there is a AE definitive difference. The degree to which each gets caught up in the AE system that compromises principles, morals and ethics is generally also AE evident, even if not in a black and white fashion. AE Todd Swearingen You're talking about cosmetics not fundamentals. Important cosmetics to be sure, but cosmetics all the same. They are both fundamentally the same. The difference is who gets to drop their shorts when the other side is in power. It's like a can of frozen orange juice. When you're reconstituting it just how much water do you have to add before you quit calling it orange juice? None of them with any real power to effect change are willing to do so on either side. Compromise? Degree? They are in it for self interest and aggrandizement for themselves, their class, their constituents, their political cronies, their business cronies, etc., etc., etc. Do you seriously think that the Democrats won't bend over whomever they can to further their own ends and because you (and I) happen to agree with many of their ideas that that somehow makes the things they do which are odious less so? Are you aware that the great Democratic social pioneer, LBJ, who had just recalled jet aircraft scrambling to the defense of the USS Liberty after it was attacked by Israeli aircraft and gunboats, remarked after being told that the Israeli military had made an unprovoked attack upon an unarmed US Naval vessel and that US servicemen had been killed and wounded, Fuck 'em. So much for the liberal Democrat. I don't believe the conservative Republican would have done anything different. Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee. Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee are mirror twins and one is only better than the other insofar as they agree or disagree with ones own personal philosophy and interests. It is precisely because we allow ourselves to be duped into thinking that this is the way it has to be that this is the way it is. We don't hold out for fundamental change for the better we take the lesser of 2 evils. What a crock. It is a game they are now teaching in business school in management skills and techniques classes. Divide and conquer is as old as the hills. It appears I am the cynic here, eh? I don't like or believe any of them. Happy Happy, Gustl Hallo, The choice between Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee is exactly no choice at all let alone a better choice. ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl Wednesday, 12 October, 2005, 04:00:25, you wrote: RT hah, wonder why most people disagree him y still majority people RT vote him? Perhaps they dont have better choice. -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Google laugh
Hallo, The choice between Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee is exactly no choice at all let alone a better choice. ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl Wednesday, 12 October, 2005, 04:00:25, you wrote: RT hah, wonder why most people disagree him y still majority people RT vote him? Perhaps they dont have better choice. -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Global Rich List
Hallo Robert, What really brings it home for me is that I have been on a disability since Viet Nam and my income, down to the penny, is $16,542 per year which leaves us, here in the land of bend over and let me introduce myself, struggling, and we are not among the abject poor, yet we are still in the top 11.85 percent of the world in wealth. I remember being on RR in the Phillipines (Ano na Kabayan! Happy Happy ba tayo!) in the late sixties and thought that my 180-odd USD was pretty poor wages but then was told that the average YEARLY wage at that time in the Philippines was $30-something. I'm not much of an economist but it seems to me that even though incomes have raised prices still outstrip wages by far. There are many things for which I owe thanks to the military. One of the foremost things among the many is my having been afforded the chance to see how so much of the world lives in comparison to what those with just a modicum of wealth. The religion I was born into teaches us to do more with less, share the wealth, help where and when we are able, sacrifice our own comfort for those in need, and that no matter who or where or what we are we are all of equal value although our circumstances may differ. Well, we seem to be getting away from that now and our helping and sharing seems to be getting more and more impersonal. A sad situation. I don't believe that there is any more effective way of touching a person's heart than going directly to the source and seeing for oneself. Seeing, tasting and smelling poverty and want. Images on the television screen are all too often soon forgotten but when you combine that image with a smell it doesn't go away quickly if at all. My brother makes over $80,000 a year and his wife poor mouths me. She tells me she has to work because they can't afford to live in this economy without her working. Makes me ill. They have it in their heads that those without are lazy or stupid or somehow not worth bothering about. I think even worse is that they profess to care but hold their own confort and welfare to be more important than that of everyone else. I remember taking my brother down to Villa Acuna in Mexico just across the Rio Bravo from Del Rio and he wasn't there 5 minutes and he was afraid and wanted to go back across the border. He figured he would be robbed and killed down there among the poor Mexicans. In a border town where a woman can walk home at 3.00 in the morning without fear of being attacked, robbed or raped. A safe place after dark, at least back in the '70s. Who knows now? They may have picked up our values. So much ignorance and in my own family despite hearing me go on and on for years and years. All too many people just don't hear despite listening. I suppose this is why I say you have to change the heart first and then the mind will follow. The mind is fickle. It wants to move all the time and wants to control, define, explain away, rationalize, marginalize. Beware the mind. It allows us to justify that which is wrong and evil. It places value on pieces of wood (tally sticks) or paper or diamonds and our own comfort all the while telling us that yes, those starving and in need are important but not quite as important as our own comfort and safety and that of our own family, neighborhood, state, nation, religion, political persuasion, whatever. And I sit here writing this in my house which is deteriorating daily knowing that despite my little, 88.5 percent of the rest of the world has less, much less, than me and mine. It is frustrating. How do we touch those hearts of those who have? Personal example certainly, but what more? My wife's nephew, a wealthy businessman, believes me to be a fool. He complains over having to pay $1.25 a year in taxes to support public broadcasting yet he spends much more than that renting one pornographic video. He has graduated from college and is perhaps the brightest bulb in his family yet he lacks a healthy social conscience. How do folks like him have their hearts changed? I just keep praying personally and waiting but not expecting results. How on earth did our species allow its value system to become so skewed? I guess I should stop now. Speaking from frustration accomplishes little if anything. Fight the good fight brother. Happy Happy, Gustl Friday, 07 October, 2005, 22:14:51, you wrote: rlr Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: Hallo Folks, An interesting site: http://www.globalrichlist.com/ rlr Wow! I knew I was comfortable and doing well, but that's a REAL eye rlr opener! What have I ever done to be in such elite company? Gives one pause. rlr Indeed! Thanks Gustl! rlr robert luis rabello -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one
[Biofuel] Global Rich List
Hallo Folks, An interesting site: http://www.globalrichlist.com/ Gives one pause. Happy Happy, Gustl/Aug/Del -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ignore science at your peril
Hallo, You already know the answer to that question. As long as it does not impact on either their bottom line or immediate family they will not believe unless the government requires them to believe. Science is for hire a good portion of the time. You remember that smoking didn't cause cancer until the government had no choice but to become involved. Shoot, we still have people in this country (USA) that believe Iraq had WMD, was in on the events of 9/11 and was a safe haven for bin Laden and his running mates despite the mountain of evidence which disproves all of that. It is a matter of values and the ability to think logically. Even if we had no definite evidence of the perils of global warming if we put people before profits and thought in the better safe than sorry mode we would do something. Unfortunately that is not the case. Happy Happy, Gustl Friday, 23 September, 2005, 07:50:18, you wrote: AE Hello all, AE Just what exactly is it going to take to make sceptics believe AE that global warming is real and a very serious problem? -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ignore science at your peril
Hallo Zeke, Your scope is a little narrow. Given global warming we are talking about the world not just a country or two. Happy Happy, Gustl Friday, 23 September, 2005, 10:25:52, you wrote: ZY I'm sure there were egyptians, greeks, romans, spaniards, britons, ZY russians, etc who saw the collapse of their respective civillizations ZY and empires well before it happened too. Why should the US fair any ZY better? ZY On 9/23/05, Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo, You already know the answer to that question. As long as it does not impact on either their bottom line or immediate family they will not believe unless the government requires them to believe. Science is for hire a good portion of the time. You remember that smoking didn't cause cancer until the government had no choice but to become involved. Shoot, we still have people in this country (USA) that believe Iraq had WMD, was in on the events of 9/11 and was a safe haven for bin Laden and his running mates despite the mountain of evidence which disproves all of that. It is a matter of values and the ability to think logically. Even if we had no definite evidence of the perils of global warming if we put people before profits and thought in the better safe than sorry mode we would do something. Unfortunately that is not the case. ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ignore science at your peril
Hallo Zeke, Friday, 23 September, 2005, 12:43:20, you wrote: ZY Yes -- our capabilities have expanded alot since then. Some of those ZY other countries did take out their entire world too -- it just ZY happened to be one river basin was the extent of their reach. Global ZY warming does present more disturbing questions about rebuilding ZY however, since there is no somewhere else to rise. Perhaps this is not worth quibbling about but it was not the entire world which was taken out but rather the entire known world. A significant difference. ZY I wonder if any of the dinosaurs were intelligent enough to wonder ZY what was happening to their world (talking of the climate and plant ZY changes, before the comet hit and sort of finished it) And I am wondering how many people are intelligent enough to wonder what is happening rather than take the word of some talking heads representing mammon and selfish interests to both the short and long term interests of the rest of humanity and the environment with all it contains. ...snip... Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ignore science at your peril
Hallo Folks, Finally entering senility and answering my own mails: Friday, 23 September, 2005, 14:07:11, I wrote: ...snip... GSZ And I am wondering how many people are intelligent enough to wonder GSZ what is happening rather than take the word of some talking heads GSZ representing mammon and selfish interests to both the short and long term *detriment* GSZ to the rest of humanity and the environment with all it contains. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seeding a forage pasture
Hallo Andres, I'm afraid everything I do is very different from what you are proposing so I can't be much help. I would get in touch, if possible, with the local folks and the ag extension office or uni which serves your area. Pasture farming is area specific given weather conditions, soil type, length of season and what livestock you are pasturing. Even where I am at the requirements are different if you drive 15 minutes south. I have to plant for heavy clay but my neighbors a few miles south have to plant for sandy soil. This is not to mention that my neighbors think I am crazy because I use no pesticides, herbicides or chemical fertilizers. Do a google or hotbot search for pasture planting and refine your search to suit your conditions. Then find a neighbor who is successful who uses farming methods which mirror your methods and talk to them. Follow that up with whatever free government or university information you can find and then decide which best suits your conditions and methods of farming. I'm sorry I can't be more help than that. I don't have a clue about farming in the desert. Good luck friend. Happy Happy, Gustl Tuesday, 20 September, 2005, 21:19:28, you wrote: AY Hi, tried posting the following to Rodale's NewFarm forums, and have AY gotten no answer so far. Any farmers on this list? Gustl? Keith? I'm AY leaving this particular field unseeded until i can figure out a smart AY way to do it: AY Hello, AY It's spring here in the southern hemisphere, and we're looking at AY seeding a recently harvested potato field with a forage mixture. We AY don't have access to a drill yet, so the plan is to broadcast a nurse AY crop of oats, then lightly disc to cover, then broadcast alfalfa plus a AY bunch of other small seeded forbs, grasses, and legumes. We'll need to AY furrow the field for irrigation (can't count on enough-properly AY timed-rain here in the desert, although we do get about 200-250mm AY spread out over the season-conditions are much like southern colorado, AY northern new mexico), so the question is: do we furrow before AY broadcasting the alfalfa+, and if so, how do we cover and pack the AY seed/bed after furrowing? Or, if we furrow after seeding the alfalfa+, AY won't the seeds be buried too deep? ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seeding a forage pasture
Hallo Folks, Wednesday, 21 September, 2005, 15:20:54, you wrote: ...snip... KA Nope. No hits for ley apart from barley and stuff. I think I still KA keep my boots. KA Try a Google search for ley farming and see what you get. Here you go: Try http://www.hotbot.com or specifically http://www.hotbot.com/default.asp?query=ley+farmingps=loc=searchboxtab=webprovKey=Google for 14,600 results. ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] SPACE HEATERS
Hallo Jim, I don't know about any specific brand names but kerosene space heaters have been around for years and years. They are unvented. Happy Happy, Gustl Saturday, 17 September, 2005, 11:05:57, you wrote: J Hello folks, J Just wondering if anyone can recomend a good oil heater for J Primary/Backup home heat. J I have Natural gas but I would like to get away from depending on J resources I cannot aquire with my skills. Since I have gotten into BD my J wife asks if there isnt something out there that would burn BD with a J direct vent? (she was really impressed with BD in lamp) J Has any one made a (simple) wick style heater with a catalytic after J burner something like the aladdan lamp but for heating space? J Seems like the manufactures of Oil heaters won't cover BD in warranty - J with all the electronics and other garbage multi fuel is goner with J their ideology. -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Happy Happy
Hallo Vin, Ano na Kababayan, happy happy ba tayo! I guess that is why I say it. Yes I know there is one too many ba in the word. That is how my friends all pronounced it. :o) Happy Happy, Gustl Saturday, 03 September, 2005, 21:18:27, you wrote: VL Hi Keith, VL Hmmm. Imagine that! If any of you happen to find VL yourselves in the Philippines, drop me a line and VL we'll have Happy Happy (and talk biofuels too). :-) VL Thanks and regards. VL Vin Lava VL Manila, Philippines Many of us here who are not Filipinos have fond and happy memories of the Philippines, including me. VL Ask Gustl why he ends his messages Happy Happy! Regards, and thanks again Happy Happy! (No matter what!) Keith VL __ VL Do You Yahoo!? VL Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around VL http://mail.yahoo.com VL ___ VL Biofuel mailing list VL Biofuel@sustainablelists.org VL http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org VL Biofuel at Journey to Forever: VL http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html VL Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): VL http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers
Hallo Folks, Saturday, 27 August, 2005, 11:51:31, you wrote: rlr ardis streeter wrote: All this talk of politics as far as I am concerned is for the most part way out of line,and with a lot of misconceptions toward a political adjenda. rlr Don't go there! Didn't you read the welcome message when you rlr first subscribed? rlr robert luis rabello Ja, let's not go there. Let us go here instead. Unless people have all the information they are able they will not be able to make intelligent or wise decisions. We need to know that when we are told something that the source is routinely as accurate and truthful as possible and we need to know which sources are not so we can stay away from those. There are folks out there, and I know some of them, who limit their input to sources which reflect only their particular mindset and they reject information from other sources as false or biased whether or not that is indeed true. They want the world to be a mirror image of their cherished beliefs whether or not the beliefs are true, good or wise. That makes no sense. I believe I have said this before but I believe that the information we garner and through which we sift is biofuel for the mind. Politics may be and often is heavily discussed but through this we gain an understanding of others who may be vastly different from ourselves and we come to learn that although there are many differences we have a common thread running through this which is that we wish good for ourselves and no harm to others. What gets in the way of this is partisanship whether it is religious, political, economic, racial or whatever else. Through these discussions we get closer to the truth of things and become closer to being an organic whole. If we are to become the best people we can be living in the best world we can we need to listen to others and examine ourselves and if we find ourselves lacking we need to get into line with what is right and good or if we find others lacking we need to point it out to them so that they have the same opportunity of getting into line with that which is right and good. To limit the discourse on this list to the physical mechanics of biofuel production is to limit ones understanding of what biofuel is and what it can become. If you are not prepared to expand your limits friend then you have chosen the wrong list. This is where the sorting and weeding is done. This is the place where we become part of the one, friends. We point out the flaws where we find them that we may understand more and correct the mistakes we find in ourselves and elsewhere as we are able. Welcome to biofuels. ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
Hallo Doug, Sunday, 14 August, 2005, 16:42:09, you wrote: dbo There may have been a misunderstanding in Baghdad. I suspect that the dbo people in Washington knew exactly what they were doing. dbo Doug Woodard dbo St. Catharines, Ontario There is no suspect about it. I heard the US ambassador tell Iraqi government officials that the US had no interest in the issue at all. Twice. Seems that many people who also saw that on the US news have conveniently forgotten it. Our government suckered Iraq in order to invade. Period.Washington was fully cognizant of Iraq's intentions and lied in order to have an excuse to invade. Twice now we have done similar things. Happy Happy, Gustl dbo On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Hakan Falk wrote: Iraq is the result of a misunderstanding, Saddam Hussein asked for the US permission to invade Kuweit and thought that he got it. -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
Hallo Whomever, Sunday, 31 July, 2005, 18:03:48, you wrote: Wwrc In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better than Wwrc us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe In GOD We Trust. In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited.? I assume that you have NEVER listened to Rush Limbaugh or his ilk then? Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson? In GOD We Trust? The qualifier Somewhat does not appear there between We and Trust. Those trusting in God are those rejecting the ways of the world and following the ways of the Lord. That would be those in peace churches and not involving themselves in national politics and perhaps not even state politics. I assume you mean In the bible we trust instead, with the caveat of your own particular interpretations of that and including the old testament which has, according to virtually all biblical scholars of the Christian bent been fulfilled and the jots and tittles have been changed. It is very interesting watching the contortions of the theologians trying to make the black words in the bible match up to the red words when they flatly contradict them in so many cases. If they trusted in God they would have the ability to get to their knowledge without the aid of such an inadequate medium as the written word. It is not so interesting watching them pulling verses or partial verses out of context and trying to warp them to their own particular beliefs. They would rather define truth to match their own limited understanding rather than take the trouble to bring their understanding in line with truth. Makes one ill. I generally attempt to be more kind in my observations but I really get weary watching people serving two masters while claiming to be serving only one. That which is good, right and true speaks for itself and the rest requires justification. There are a lot of Christians who are going to be justifying their heads off and a lot who don't call themselves Christian who won't need to do so. Law vs Spirit. There are a lot of folks out there who may have read but have either forgotten or do not understand MT 25:12, LK 13:25, LK 13:27 and JN 5:42. Perhaps they just think claiming to believe something is tautologous with demonstrating the fruits of the belief. Fruits? GAL 5:22. You won't find a lot of those fruits in politics whether left, right or center. Before I forget: MT 7:3-5 There is a great difference between reading the words and knowing what they mean, understanding them. Living them is even more difficult. I have failed somewhat in this unkind mail but am prepared to live and/or die with the consequences of my actions and without excuses or justification. I hope all those upholding life with one hand and activily participating in or concurring with the dealing out of death with the other are just as ready. Blue or red or whatever shade. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
Hallo Nancy, I can't disagree. Murder, war, abortion, capital punishment are all on the same level with different types of justifications for each depending on situation, etc. But then, as I have said, only that which is wrong requires justification. What is true and right stands on its own. Happy Happy, Gustl Monday, 01 August, 2005, 13:45:13, you wrote: NC I agree with you Gustl. Yet, I am amazed and the quanity of people who will NC uphold and fight for some snails life, being of great importance and right NC to live, yet believe it is okay to kill babies. That the Child is of no NC value and has no right to life. NC - Original Message - NC From: des [EMAIL PROTECTED] NC To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org NC Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 6:56 AM NC Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country Thank you! That was the first message in this thread I found worth saving for future reference. Too much out there, (government, business and religion) has propagated the illusion of separation, competition and isolation... We could easily forget that we do all come from the same Source, sad to say though, that when mankind tries to give that Source a name, religion develops, and separation of our unity follows. doug swanson Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: Hallo Whomever, Sunday, 31 July, 2005, 18:03:48, you wrote: Wwrc In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better than Wwrc us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe In GOD We Trust. In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited.? I assume that you have NEVER listened to Rush Limbaugh or his ilk then? Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson? ...snip for bandwidth... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell
Hallo Kim, Thursday, 28 July, 2005, 08:20:54, you wrote: GKT Greetings, GKT First I would like to say good luck on your new venture. Have you GKT read the entire small farms library at JTF? It is a great place GKT to start. GKT Are you aware of just how much land 15 hectares is? To farm that GKT much land, you are going to need some serious equipment. That is, GKT if you plan on doing it sustainably. You would be running GKT thousands of chickens and hundreds of pigs in order to create GKT enough manure to bring back depleted land. Fifteen hectares is less than 40 acres of land. Serious equipment? Depends on how serious is defined. The Amish in our area have done wonders with marginal land although it has taken them time to bring the land back into full production and perhaps more importantly they have a community to rely on until the farms do become fully productive. It must be kept in mind also that the Amish do not farm with the aim of making a profit they farm with the aim of providing for their family, but they do make a small profit. Back in the 80's I was talking with an Amish friend with 8 kids. He made almost $3,000 profit that year. But, he raised most of his own food including meat, milk, eggs, veggies and raised all of the feed for his animals. The three grand was used to buy what he couldn't produce himself including cloth and thread to make clothing. Also, they are diverse in their planting and their livestock as well. Monoculture is not what they practice. Another thing which needs defining is profit and sustainable. We may differ in our definitions and believe we are speaking of the same thing. Three grand would not be profit to some while it is an abundance to others. For starters, one person with a team of decent horses can handle 60-80 acres. A team of horses produces manure. One cow will produce milk and calves and at least 40 pounds of manure daily. Crop rotation and planting for soil, water and weed conditions is a must. Make use of your county agent (if they have ag agents in Uruguay) and check out the Small Farmer's Journal. What you are talking about is possible but you don't want to walk into it blindly or with unreal expectations like the hippies did in the 60's. It will be hard work for short bucks and a lot of sacrifice and making do. You have to learn to do more with less. If you go into it looking only to survive you should, if you are smart, learn how to live. Do remember though, the Amish have a community on which to rely and you will be on your own. If I sound discouraging then good, because unless you have the will and are well prepared you will fail. I have seen many people who love the lifestyle of plain people falter and fail because they are not willing to sacrifice what they consider their simple pleasures and conveniences and are hardly prepared for the work involved. GKT The real beauty of sustainable farming is how little land you GKT need to raise enough food for several families. I do belive that GKT the quoted figures are 1 hectare for a family of 6, and that GKT includes income. Yes, this is one kind of sustainable, I certainly agree. GKT Assuming that you understand the above, then I would suggest that GKT you look into breeds. Many of the old endangered breeds are best GKT for sustainable farming. For example: Tamworth pigs. These are a GKT smaller bacon pig, not a lard pig. They do not survive factory GKT farming and being enclosed and are therefore endangered, but they GKT are a fabulous pasture pig. They live in the pasture, year round GKT in snowy areas and in the heat. And they are no more expensive GKT than good breeding stock of any other breed. The trick is to know GKT what the challenges of your area are and to pick stock that can GKT thrive where you are. Then, you don't have all the expensive GKT medicines and upkeep that factory farmers put up with. The Tamworth is a great hog. Very friendly and also disease resistant and hardy. As for prices it depends on where you buy. If you buy feeders from a farmer you will get normal feeder prices. If you buy feeders from a rare/minor breed conservancy type you will get screwed. I bought registered Tamworth feeders from a farmer for $50 each and the next closest price was $350 from the conservancy people. GKT The other thing to look at is what is your feed going to? While I GKT know that you don't want to do cattle, they are the easiest GKT explanation of what I mean. When comparing live weight to dressed GKT weight, if you can find animals that can hit 60% of the live GKT weight in dressed weight, then your feed has been well used. GKT Dexter is an excellent example of this kind of cattle. But if GKT your dressed weight is only 40%, then your feed has gone to GKT growing something that is in the waste
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell
Hallo Joe, Thursday, 28 July, 2005, 10:08:23, you wrote: JS To 'apprentice' with an Amish farmer may not only be impractical JS it may be practically impossible. I don't know the Amish but I JS live in the heart of Mennonite country which I believe is very JS similar. Old order Mennonites farm without electricity, engines JS and much mechanization. New order Mennonites do allow the use of JS some technology but still live close to the land and keep to JS themselves. One such farmer a few km from my home has wind JS turbines and recently added a very large one similar to what you JS see being used for feeding the grid. I wanted to visit his farm JS and learn about his odyssey of progressively larger turbines etc JS but I was told that would not be possible. It is central to the JS beliefs of these people that they should be humble and plain. JS Therefore they are taught that it is sinful to brag or show off JS thier accomplishments. They feel that touring someone through JS thier farm is an example of such pride and as a result you may JS find it difficult to do so. There are considerable differences between the various Anabaptist sects. The Old Order Mennonites are among if not the most strict. Apprenticing may be impossible but neighboring isn't. They all neighbor. I have yet to meet a plain person who would be unwilling to help someone else with something if it was presented to them in a manner which would not cause them to go against their beliefs. If one is from another plain sect or a German speaker (as am I) things go much more smoothly. Being familiar with the customs and beliefs, traditions and practices of the one to whom you are speaking is a big help. Not being perceived as Englisch is also a great help. It can boil down to not what you ask but how you ask it. Getting to know folks and their idiosyncracies first and learning how to speak to folks can smooth over a lot of rough spots in the road. :o) Happy Happy, Gustl JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While not a practical idea for most, I suspect, it would be nice to be able to apprentice with some Amish farmers. ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell
Hallo Kim, I do not think we are in disagreement about this but just approaching it from differing angles. Fifteen hectare in Uraguay should be plenty enough land for a team of horses, a cow, hog and some fowl as well. It is a matter of how one does things. In Bavaria they keep a team and other farm animals on much fewer than 15 hectare, or did since they have mostly gone to power equipment now. Back in the sixties there were several communal experiments and so far as I know the only one which succeeded was the Farm down in Tennessee. It was rough going in the beginning but they made it. It helps having a community even if it is a community of novices. I just wanted folks to know that yes, it can be done but it will be tough. It is not for the faint hearted or those not willing to sacrifice much for what may turn out to be what they consider little. If a person is not country smart they need to get that way. There are an entirely different set of circumstances down in Uruguay and much missing from the picture the mail painted. Climate, seasonal changes, an accurate description of what is considered marginal land, what resources are available and a host of other things. Without knowing those things only general suggestions can be made and then depending on the answers to those questions one may not know the answers anyhow. Getting to know your neighbors and how those you wish to emulate farm is one of the best things he can do. There are lots of options as concerns the offal disposal rather than just dumping the remains. Nothing needs to be wasted at all. One of the first things which comes to mind is bio-gas. Every problem has its solution. :o) Yes, there is a lot of failure with back-to-the-land'ers and particularly because they are ill prepared for the hardship and sacrifice involved in getting started. They expect things to be easier than they will be, things to go smoothly, problems not to arise or to be easily and quickly overcome. But it can be done. Just leave the rose colored glasses back in the city and if things turn out to be easier than you thought be thankful for such favors. It is better to expect the worst and have an easier time of it than it is to expect gliding through and finding yourself disillusioned and disheartened and giving up. Happy Happy, Gustl Thursday, 28 July, 2005, 10:57:15, you wrote: GKT Greetings Gustl, GKT I agree that a 15 hectare farm is not much for an experience farmer with GKT knowledge, experience and a whole community behind them. It is a very GKT large piece of land for a couple, from the city, just learning to farm who GKT don't have a community behind them. I know, I have half of that amount and GKT I know how difficult it is. GKT A pair of horses? Well there is all of my farm gone feeding them. Horses GKT are for large farms or people with large wallets for the feed store. Or, GKT people with a community where they can borrow them. The learning curve of GKT learning to manage horses is a full time occupation for at least a year. GKT I am making the change over from city girl to country girl and I know it GKT can be done. The mistake I see most often is people buying too big a GKT place, getting too much stock at once and not giving themselves a chance to GKT learn. GKT Home butcher is the way to go, of course, but localities are putting in GKT rules against it. People putting offal in the garbage is a major health GKT problem. It is also pretty stupid if they keep a dog or cat, as it is the GKT best food for them. GKT The simple life is about choices. I totally agree with your assessment of GKT living sustainably. It is amazing what you can do for yourself and how GKT much fun it is to figure out how to get what you really want. Money makes GKT life boring, beyond a certain point and for me, that is not much. GKT Bright Blessings, GKT Kim -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz
Re: [Biofuel] The Rapture
Hallo Bob, Monday, 25 July, 2005, 23:08:17, you wrote: b Hi All, b Where can I find a background to the fundamentalist belief in the b Rapture. I think we discussed it some months ago vis a vis the b Israeli conflict. b Regards, b Bob. The doctrine of the Rapture is essential premillennialist fare and is based on 1 Thesselonians 4:16-17 (among others). An excellent read which discusses not only the doctrine of the Rapture but apocalyptic expression as used by the ancient Jews and how it is misinterpreted now is: Unveiling Empire: Reading Revelation Then and Now Wes Howard-Brook and Anthony Gwyther Orbis Books, PO Box 308, Maryknoll, New York 10545-0308 ISBN 1-57075-287-7 (paper) It is worth the money. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] RE: Turd Blossom
Hallo Mike, Tuesday, 19 July, 2005, 14:32:09, you wrote: MW As a sort of Texan, OK, is the question, Does that mean you are from Arkansas or some other state bordering Texas and live right on the border? or What sort of Texan are you? or...? :o) Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Turd Blossom aka Karl Rove
Hallo Folks, From a post by Keith: The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been caught. - H. L. Mencken I don't believe Rove fits the definition of either a moral or honorable man. Covert is covert or is supposed to be. People working in covert ops assume that their identities will be protected unless otherwise advised. Black ops folks are often out there on their own if things screw up but general covert ops personnel have the reasonable expection that when their job is done they will remain anonymous. They certainly don't expect that they will be compromised by people in their own country let alone high ranking officials in their own government. IF Rove did not mention Plame by name the correct response should have been, I don't know as I have no knowledge concerning that event. rather than that he had heard that also. He is smart enough to do that but he made the conscious choice to do otherwise. Something I heard from an old and dear friend last evening is that Rove is using the tactics of the father of geopolitics, Karl Haushofer. Can anyone confirm or falsify that? Happy Happy, Gustl Monday, 18 July, 2005, 01:18:58, you wrote: SC Bud Eble wrote: While I do agree that the cover up by the Whitehouse is a disgrace and the Bush smear campaign that started all this is unacceptable, Rove probably did not break any laws. Plame was not undercover at the time the column was printed and had not been since 1997. Apparently, ambassador Joseph Wilson and his future wife both returned from overseas assignments in June 1997 From http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-07-14-cia-wilson_x.htm The column's date is important because the law against unmasking the identities of U.S. spies says a covert agent must have been on an overseas assignment within the last five years. The assignment also must be long-term, not a short trip or temporary post, two experts on the law say. Wilson's book makes numerous references to the couple's life in Washington over the six years up to July 2003. What do others think? Regards, Bud SC Bud, SC I think it (the WH managent of the Rove-Plame issue) has been SC masterful in that it has shifted the focus to Amb. Wilson. The point we SC are missing is that the WH was in the final stage of selling a war that SC had been planned for several years, not a time to have any loose ends. SC The facts are that the group, PNAC et al had a chance to implement a SC grand plan and they made sure it would happen. The fact that it isnt SC working out as planned is that the planners are without shame, and so SC make mistakes... like lying constantly. Ultimatley it doesnt pan out, SC which Rove ought to know being the history buff. But it's Cheney anyway. SC Thing is that the smartest asshole is only surrounded by much dumber SC assholes. SC I'm not sure a CIA agent needs to be out of the country to be SC undercover, even if they didnt work for a shell corp. Would be wierd to SC have to let your true identity shine when the plane lands in the US, SC then cover it back up when you take off? Or just if you retire, so SC whoever you ever came into contact with undercover would get a really SC neat sort of retirement suprise? SC Anyway, just some latenight thoughts.. ranting as always. SC S. Chapin SC ___ SC Biofuel mailing list SC Biofuel@sustainablelists.org SC http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org SC Biofuel at Journey to Forever: SC http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html SC Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): SC http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[4]: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Hallo Earl, Sunday, 10 July, 2005, 21:41:03, you wrote: Kac Which is why I didn't join the Libertarian Party, or any party Kac for that matter. Everytime I look up a particular political Kac party, I find something that I don't agree with. I think I will Kac just stay an independent, as I have for the last 17 years. I Kac voted for Badnarik in the last election because he seemed like a Kac better choice than Candidate R or Candidate D. I don't get mixed up with partisan politics and political parties for religious reasons but I do believe in keeping as well informed as possible. Kac On unions, it seems like the Government has enacted enough labor Kac laws that the unions no longer seem useful. There are more Kac federal and state laws today (119 in PA stick in my mind from a Kac recent HR seminar I went to) that protect the individual worker, Kac but none that protect the employers. I am not saying that unions Kac aren't worthy endeavors, but the Government has taken away much Kac of their power. Nowadays, unions are really just good for Kac negotiating rates and benefits and keeping senior members Kac employed. I think many of those labor laws should be scrapped, Kac and more power put back into the hands of the individuals, or Kac groups of individuals (i.e., unions). My grandfather went to work for General Motors in 1915 I believe or perhaps it was 1919. I don't remember exactly and he is long dead so I can't ask. He was involved in the 1936 strike in Flint (Michigan) which brought about the recognition of the union. I remember talking to him back in about 1960 about the strikes and the union and he told me that in the beginning the union was a good and unfortunately needed organization but over the years it had grown more and more to resemble the bosses and it seemed to him now that the purpose of the union was to maintain the status quo: keep the workers satisfied enough to not strike and the bosses satisfied enough to not complain and keep the union management in power. He even gave a specific year when he perceived that the values of the union leadership became entirely corrupted and that was 1955. He told me that that was the same year when the quality of the Buick and Cadillac had become so bad that a body might as well drive a Chevy or Ford because they were less expensive and the quality was the same. Over the years I have been a union member because it was required. I have been a member of locals affiliated with GM, Ford and Jeep and with the IWW as well. The IWW was the best of them and it was unsatisfactory. The UAW locals were pretty much clones of each other and relatively worthless in any real sense. The IWW wasn't great but it is the only union I know of whose members held a strike because the owners were trying to force a pay increase on the workers so the bosses could use the pay increase as an excuse to close the business, get rid of the union and then re-open. That notwithstanding I still did not care for the IWW either. The employers don't need much protection from the workers. They need protection from the government. Had the employers been fair and reasonable there would have never been a union in the first place. The salaries and benefit packages of management run from generally much greater than that of the hourly employees to obscene. Admittedly the smaller the company the less the disparity but how reasonable must an employee be then? To the point of near starvation or barely scraping by? You understand of course that I am not talking about mom and pop businesses now, eh? And while I'm thinking about it just how is it that business owners have the right to say that their profit margin is not great enough but that employees don't have the right to say that their wages are not great enough? Somewhere in here there needs to be a return to reason and cooperation. By the way Earl, these thoughts aren't directed specifically at you they are just rolling around in the empty space in my head. Another by the way, the union example was just the first thing which popped into that empty space. There are similar examples all through the platform. There are all kinds of ways for employers to get around government regulations. We all know that. Age, sex, race discrimination? Each can be gotten around. Perhaps not forever but generally they can be avoided. Shoot, I know places in Ohio which won't allow OSHA on their property. Rules, regulations, strikes and slowdowns are no decent substitute for reason and cooperation but... Government seems to be in the business of defining and enforcing morality and that is where the rules come from. Unions do the same thing. The problem is that they don't agree on the definitions and so they both talk about different things using the same
Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Hallo Todd, Amen and well said brother. Happy Happy, Gustl Saturday, 09 July, 2005, 22:20:29, you wrote: AE Tim Brodie, AE I find it fascinating that virtually nothing has been said in this forum AE about London. Lots of argument about what each person thinks AE their unimpeachable sources of information say. Nothing about AE the current event that demonstrates the face of this evil, and the AE nature of the value systems that executed these actions. AE Why would you find it fascinating? People build bombs. People blow up AE and never see their loved ones again. People get maimed, scarred and AE disfigured for life and perhaps never look at anything in the same AE fashion again, much less in a natural fashion. AE That's not fascinating. That's horror. AE Perhaps what is fascinating is the fact that the recipient nations AE remain defiant in their industrial, colonial, imperial and military AE endeavors, refusing to address the core of the problem, in turn giving AE no cause for insurgents, terrorists or freedom fighters to back down AE either. AE Think about this for a moment: AE In Iraq War #1, there were two quotes that while they echo in my daily AE being seem to have been lost on 99.9% of the world's population. The AE first was George Herbert Walker Bush stating that This is about jobs, AE American jobs. AE The second was George Schultz stating, This is about preserving the AE American lifestyle. AE Granted, Kuwait was invaded. Granted, Kuwait was slant drilling into AE Iraqi oilfields. Granted, Iraq took no effort to resolve the issue AE diplomatically. AE But take a look at the responses from American leadership, - jobs AE and lifestyle were the paramount justifications for war, not any moral AE high ground, not any points of light, just jobs and the American AE lifestyle. AE Now, tell me what has changed since then. Afghanistan being a house of AE military bedlam for two plus decades, fueled by both the United States AE and the USSR. Entire populations of similar mindsets in neighboring AE nations fed up with the American lifestyle and how its manipulations AE had, are and will continue to affect them if change is not brought AE about. Individuals of limitted resources adamant that change must be AE effected as soon as possible and with some justification at perhaps all AE costs. AE What is fascinating and remarkable is that in the face of what many AE perceive - in many respects correctly so - to be international AE oppression, starvation, exploitation and strangulation, no one addresses AE the role that imperialistic powers play in lighting the fuses that lead AE to events such as London. They certainly didn't address the same issues AE on September 12th, 2002. They haven't discussed their own role since then. AE Personally? Were I of Arab descent? I'd be mad as hell. And knowing how AE easily it is for humans to be impatient and act or react rather than AE wait for a slow, bureaucratic, greedy internatiionally intwined monster AE to even begin to deliberate what it might destroy or compromise with its AE next bite, it's not a far reach to understand where the underpinnings of AE all this originate from. AE That's what is fascinating. The denial, avoidance and betrayal of the AE core issues by national governments, all more interested in their AE lifestyle than the betterment and peace of the rest of the globe's AE peoples. AE So why talk about London and evil of type you imply when the evil at AE the core remains unaddressed, much less resolved? AE I think that evil at the core is what is being addressed here. The AE bombs, bloodletting, shortened lives and lost futures is what we'd all AE like to prevent, even if it seems to be so simple as de-evolving and AE choosing alternative and softer paths.. AE Unfortunately, cowboys and assholes in power (not!) would rather AE preserve American and western lifestyles as they have derisively AE become to be known. AE I believe we're all in for a bit of a shock if such mindlessness is AE permitted to prevail. And we haven't seen anything yet if we don't AE change our direction and goals as a country. AE Todd Swearingen -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel
Re[2]: [Biofuel] give up meat?
Hallo Folks, Saturday, 09 July, 2005, 03:44:18, you wrote: When people find out you don't eat meat they automatically assume it's because you can't stand to have cute cuddly cows die. Its always good to intellegently set them straight. If there's one thing i constantly have to fight off, it's being labeled a spineless pot smoking hippie. It's an uphill battle for sure. KA :-) Always easier to label-and-dismiss than to consider something KA that might threaten one's comforts. ...snip... KA Trouble is it wouldn't work, if you have a look at earlier KA messages in this thread. Maintaining soil fertility means farming KA with animals, and when it's done properly it's humane, sustainable KA and profitable. ...snip... We have, on and off over the years, raised our own meat, milk and eggs and even made our own tofu. I was a vegetarian up until about 1969 or 1970. My father was a butcher and before I left home (at 16) I was forced to eat meat but when I left I chose to be a vegetarian. I don't know how I came to return to eating meat but I did. When my kids were children and we were in the habit of keeping animals for meat and milk the kids liked to name the animals. I had them naming the cattle and hogs things like Essen, Speise, Wurst and such which are German words which are food related. I figured that way when it came time to butcher them they would not be in for too big a shock. It appears to have worked. The animals were loved and well cared for. Their end purpose, just like a field of grain, was however as food. The kids were taught to be kind to the animals, to keep them clean and well fed and watered but to not lose sight of their purpose which was three fold. First they were to nourish the family. Second they were to save us money (as we have always lived below the poverty level for our family size). Third they were to provide healthy food free from chemicals, medications, hormones and whatever. Keith is absolutely correct in stating that the animals have their own personalities. Even the turkeys and chickens do if you observe them long enough and are observant enough. Everything however has a purpose and the purpose of some animals is, in the end, food. What we can do, survive quite nicely on a vegetarian diet, and what we actually do are for many if not most of us worlds apart. As with anything else in nature, whether it be people or resources of one sort or another, we have a responsibility to have a reasonable and wise use and treatment of these things. Unfortunately we seem to choose waste, convenience and pollution over utility, conservation and wise use of our world and that which inhabits it. And again unfortunately we seem to not only reward these things but encourage them for greater profits of the few over the many. We drive our family farmers out of a livlihood, drive the small community based businesses out of business and force our people to become, of necessity, part of the low-wage high-profit machine. For me the debate is not about veggies/meat but about wise use. There is room for the meat eaters and the vegetarians. Without those consuming meat we would have a boatload of domesticated animals competing for the very things the vegetarians want to eat. How we got to this place and whether or not it is right makes no difference at all. Here is where we are and this is what we have to deal with. If the whole world became vegetarian overnight we would still have to figure out what to do with the animals and they would still die because they would be competing for the very food we need to survive. Animals don't have guns and anyone thinking that fences would work need to get out and around animals more. When they get hungry or want out you better be sure your fence is made of cement and plenty high. I have seen a bull back out through a barn wall as easily as Arnold Schwarzenegger would walk through a wall made out of a sheet of paper and two steers jump a five foot woven wire fence with a strand of electric wire six inches above that like they were deer and if they couldn't have jumped it and wanted out they would have trampled it down. Come to think of it I have seen a cow run through and trample down a woven wire fence and electric fencing as well. As with everything else it all boils down to restraint, responsibility, reason and discipline. The way the world works now may appear reasonable but that is deceiving. Economics says that paper and metal have worth but not so very long ago it was carved sticks of wood called tallysticks. It is all in how one looks at it. Change your perspective and your reality changes. Reality is, after all, something we have to agree on. Without that agreement it doesn't exist for us in exactly the same way it does for others.
Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hallo Keith, Friends, Thursday, 07 July, 2005, 17:19:26, you wrote: ...snip... You will notice that Keith, for instance, seems to offer solutions. KA ... thanks for saying so! Though not always, I can be negative too KA where necessary, but I do try to point to alternatives. More than KA that I'd say I'm trying to provide useful information. This forum and KA these issues are all about empowerment, IMHO, but there's hundreds of KA billions spent every year on PR, advertising and all the other forms KA of message massage to try to prevent exactly that, empowerment. And KA perhaps especially around anything to do with fossil-fuels. Lots of KA blind alleys, much confusion and frustration, and here in the KA Information Age most of the information is just noise and smoke to KA keep you baffled. Good information helps, it's empowering. ...snip... I have only been reading sporadically as I am not yet fully shipshape and Bristol fashion but there is a place for people who recognize the problems and point them out without solutions as long as they are just doing that, pointing the problems out, recognizing them, but not attacking randomly. Sometimes we have a difficult time even recognizing the real root cause of something and we go for treating symptoms rather than curing the disease. It is a matter of how and why it is done, of whether it is to help as one is able or to attack, criticize and defend a partisan position. Makes a world of difference. It's sort of like automobile electrics. It may help to change the bad bulb repeatedly but the problem won't be fixed until you find the short and repair that and then replace the bulb. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Hallo Jerry, Thursday, 07 July, 2005, 18:16:39, you wrote: JT NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 JT AMERICANS lost their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!! JT IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the JT terrorist would have been satisfied taking down the WTC! Hell no JT they would have kept on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity. What on earth does this have to do with what is happening in Iraq? There was not one Iraqi among that lot and it has been amply proven that Iraq was not aiding or abetting terrorists, not friendly with bin Laden, had destroyed what US-supplied WMD it did have, was complying with UN requirements albeit slowly and grudgingly and not a threat to anyone outside the immediate region. Chomsky is talking about apples and you're talking about oranges friend. What you are saying is comparable to saying, Mexico has attacked the United States. We need to defend ourselves therefore we shall attack Canada. There is neither rhyme nor reason to that. Being angry is reasonable. Being a tool is not. The majority of those identified as the perpetrators were Saudi's. Everyone in the government knew that and it was widely reported in our own media yet Bush decided to attack the Iraqi's. He used the events of 9/11 as a reason to push his own twisted agenda and he used the American public as tools to further that agenda. I don't know about you friend, but I don't like being used, I don't like seeing US military personnel killed for no good reason and I most definitely do not like being lumped in with those twisted individuals who think it is fine and dandy to go kill innocent people to push a political agenda. What is happening in Iraq has nothing to do with patriotism, justice, right, morality or anything else. It is entirely about money, politics and a spurious religious belief called Christian reconstructionism or dominionism which is neither Christian nor moral despite its name and is fundamental to neocon philosophy. You need to do your homework friend and connect the dots by the numbers. You have bought into a lie. Your name is new to me so I will let you know that I have 8 years in the military and two Nam tours and belong to the VFW as well. This has nothing to do with patriotism it has to do with ethics and morality and the government has come up lacking. We are in the wrong and it is time we got ourselves straight and right. We can only do this if we have the truth and it is available. Your heart may be in the right place but your head is not brother. It is tough to admit that your country is doing something entirely immoral but the truth is the truth. We were intentionally mislead and we need to correct that. Truth and right require that. If we do not then our government and those supporting its actions are no better than those who did the deed on 9/11. I can't believe that is what you want. Happy Happy, Gustl JT If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of JT getting blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never JT happenedyou know it and I know it. JT Jerry Turner This started way before Clinton. Blame enough for everyone. ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Hallo Frantz, The US does allow dual citizenship with conditions. Children born of US citizens abroad may have dual citizenship in the case of US service personnel at the very least. Jews may have dual citizenship no matter where they are born is my understanding. I know folks who have German and US citizenship because they were born in Germany with an American father and German mother. Things are not so cut and dried as they may seem. Happy Happy, Gustl Friday, 08 July, 2005, 03:47:08, you wrote: ...snip... FD Hakan, FD a beginning of explanation could be the double nationality. USA don't FD allow dual citizenship when it's legal in France and many other countries. FD So for exemple, my nephews, born in Washington state from a US mother FD and a French father, and actually living in France, have both US and FD French nationality regarding to the french law. At their legal majority, FD they will can choose...or not. But regarding the US law, they're only US. FD So I guess that if they were among the 9-11 victims, US would have count FD them as US and the french gov as french citizens. FD frantz, FD world citizen FD ___ FD Biofuel mailing list FD Biofuel@sustainablelists.org FD http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org FD Biofuel at Journey to Forever: FD http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html FD Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): FD http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Chemical use with organic farming.
Hallo Myke, In this area some of the organic farmers use dilute biodegradeable soap. One fellow who farms using horses uses the same tanks that carry the *-cides chemicals but uses the dilute soap. He does this so he won't have to listen to the chemical farmers. He is tired of arguing with them. A study released last year which was of ten years showed that organic farmers have the same or better yields without the *-cides and it costs them less to farm because they don't have to pay for the *-cides. In my own hayfield I haven't used chemicals of any sort for 25 years and have had no problems with insects whether they be alfalfa leaf hoppers or whatever. The spiders take care of them. The *-cides are poisons and the chemicals used by organic farmers are not. The *-cides pollute the environment and groundwater and the organic farmer chemicals do not. A world of difference. Happy Happy, Gustl Wednesday, 29 June, 2005, 05:56:28, you wrote: mh Had a discusion this morning with a fellow gardener about the use mh of chemicals in organic gardening. I said i don't use chemicals as mh i garden using organic principles. mh He said Organic farmers use loads of chemicals otherwise they mh would never get a good crop and would lose most to slugs and mh fungus infections. I know they use chemicals but not the synthetic mh nastys that non organic farmers use. mh Can enyone give me discription on chemicals organic farmers use mh and why they are different to non organic farming pesticides and mh fungcides? mh Cheers myke. -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Re: Environmentalism is dead. What's next?
Hallo Hakan, Friday, 24 June, 2005, 05:41:29, you wrote: Some thoughts below prompted by this mail and the ones leading up to it but directed generally not at anyone specifically. HF Rich, HF I think that you put the finger on the reasons why there are a large HF mistrust in America by saying who wants to play with a cheating bully. HF Only to complete what you are saying, the US government actively facilitate HF and support the behavior of their corporations. It is no surprise, if you HF are educated and know the democratic electoral process in the US, were HF politicians cannot be elected to office without the financial support from HF corporations. For a foreigner, used to democracies, it is amazing that US HF try to sell their variant of democracy, as a superior version. HF Hakan When there is a cheating bully there are always the running mates who go along with the bully. The US just happens to be the biggest dog on the block at the moment. In the past, relatively recent and not so recent, it was not always so. Before there was a USA there was always another cheating bully and after the US loses it position of strength and advantage there will be another. And that other will have running mates just as the bully from the next block has their running mates. You have to know in your heart that there are no innocent regimes or states. Not even the Vatican comes away with clean hands. Not even the Swiss or Swedes or anyone else. The transgressions may differ in degree or scope but they are still there. Organizations are soulless and in the main without conscience. The agenda of the organization becomes more important than that which is right. The tree huggers drive spikes into trees not caring for the safety of the lumberjacks whom they oppose. The right-to-lifers bomb abortion clinics not caring about the lives of those they oppose. The US supreme court just granted local governments the right to take land away from its owners and sell it to corporations for commercial development because it benefits the community not caring about the families who have lived on the land for decades. It makes no difference whether the organization is left, right or middle it is always the same. Democracy of whatever stripe has nothing to do with it. It is a matter of the bottom line. Capitalism and Communism, sworn enemies, are now not only in bed together they are engaged in hot and sweaty sex. Two economic opposites now strolling hand-in-hand down the lane at the expense of those not of the economic or political elite. But brother, what are our eyes on and who is pointing out the direction in which we are looking? If the welfare of the planet and everything on it is the prize then why is it that we are looking at everything but that? Why are we looking at what they did wrong rather than what it is we all ought to be doing? We demonize others in order to impose a certain point of view. We minimize or ignore our own faults and wrong actions and point out every single failure of those we oppose and wish to control. People don't hate the US because of what they are doing I think. They hate the US because they have the power to do it. And when somewhere down the line the US gets it comeuppance they will hate the next big bully on the block. It has always been this way and it won't change I'm afraid. Those with the power eventually become dissatisfied with only rubbing our noses in it and sooner or later will try and make us eat it as well. No organization of any sort is exempt from this I think whether they be political, economic, religious, military, scientific or whatever. They are soulless and without conscience. Remember Bhopal? Who had the discipline, restraint and responsibility and conscience? No one. No individuals involved. It was the company. Enron? No one. A slap on the wrist here and there. It is always the same. Abu Ghraib (spelling?)? A few enlisted and a female reserve general. Maybe Hussein? He made the US do it by being so bad. Ja, OK. I believe the best we can do is be responsible for ourselves and our actions, be as informed as possible and be the best example to others we are able and spread the word to anyone who will listen. We certainly aren't going to change the world by changing regimes. Which is better is only a matter of opinion. None are good. No matter how bad a regime is the elite always prosper. From time to time those who are in the elite change but that is becoming less and less frequent I think now that we are having a global economy. Ideological enemies are becoming economic friends and the rest of us still suffer, whether to a greater or lesser extent. The power of the vote pales in comparison with the power of the buck. Doesn't matter which country you are in. There are few exceptions to that
Re[2]: [Biofuel] BioDiesel on Spike TeeVee Trucks show
Hallo Greg,Mel, Thursday, 16 June, 2005, 18:17:20, you wrote: ...snip... GD As to the mini-DV tape or DVD, I have some equipment to transfer GD VHS to DVD, but I have only tried it once, with not much luck. GD I'll see what I can come up with let you know. It is my understanding that transferring VHS to DVD can be accomplished by buying a device with a VHS player and DVD burner hardwired to operate together, and that they work well. They are, however, quite expensive (at least I consider them expensive) at over $200 per unit. Not worth it perhaps. With video capture cards and software there are problems with both the sound and video although perhaps not both every time. It seems rather unpredictable. There are forums about such things online. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Strae liegen, da sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] General Motors Layoffs
Hallo Tim, Thursday, 09 June, 2005, 10:08:33, you wrote: TB Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: [snip] No one owns the truth. Not the Christians, or the Muslims, or the Jews, or the Hindus, or the Buddhists, or any religious group, or the philosophers, or the economists, or the politicians. No one. Each have bits and pieces and snatches of the truth and many claim to have and own the whole thing but that is an illusion or an outright lie. [snip] TB If this is true, then why are you complaining? It looks like you are TB making an appeal that justice is not being done and thereby implicitly TB point to a universal standard of justice. If it (the standard of TB justice) isn't universal, then there's no point in complaining to anyone TB else with the expectation of a) being understood, or b) having any TB validity of claim (at least that can speak to the inner man -- without TB this, justice becomes merely whatever is done by the one with the TB biggest gun). TB Best regards... Tim No, I'm not making an appeal that justice be done. I'm not much big on justice preferring mercy. I am wondering how people let themselves get sucked into the us/them game and how they let themselves get manipulated. I wonder why, for so many people, enough is not sufficient and more is so important. I wonder why a good many people believe emoting is the same as critical thinking. I wonder why the many allow their will to be imposed upon them by the few. I wonder why greed has taken precedence over love. I wonder how we have allowed an artificial construct (money/mammon) to become more important than the welfare of we humans and the world in which we live. Justice doesn't hold much value for me. It changes from here to there, from time to time, from place to place. Love however is universal and grows. Justice only grows with the influx of money. It can be bought. Ask anyone from Bhopal about justice. Justice seems to me to be a dead word. We get justify from justice and, as I have said before, only that which is wrong requires justification and that which is good stands on its own. Justice is what is done by those with the most money. They don't need guns because they hire others to pick up the weapons and use them. Justice is not a concept which is understood by everyone. Love is. Justice has conditions. Love doesn't, and when conditions are imposed then it isn't love any longer it is a mutation. When people's actions are done out of love then they do no harm. If harm is done then the actions are not proceeding from love and that is when justice and justification come in. It looks to me like you didn't understand my meaning. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I certainly don't get how you connected truth with justice. To quote a Canadian jurist named Blaise, The truth is no defense. I can see how you might be confused about the concepts if you are not a lawyer. But then that is why we have lawyers. How else would we manipulate justice without them? The truth is no defense. I would never call for justice because all too many of us would end up on the gallows.Self-restraint, -responsibility, -discipline, which are some of the fruits of love and mercy, are what I would call for however. These things lead to the service of the entire community and this world, despite what those with political and economic power would have us believe, is one community. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] General Motors Layoffs
Hallo Folks, I am an old Flint, Michigan boy. I know that Detroit gets all the press but Flint is the home of Buick and Chevrolet. My grandfather began working at the Buick factory in Flint in 1915. He was in the strikes back in '36 and told me that the union went bad, became the mirror image of management in '55. But that isn't what this is about. General Motors is laying off 25,000 employees in order to become more competitive. It blames its employees for the economic problems citing wages, pension and health benefits. Oddly enough there is no mention of building and promoting the gas guzzling monsters it produces. There is no mention of the salaries and benefits of management either. Nothing about the bonuses and benefit packages upper management receive. Nothing but a lot of finger pointing. There does not appear to be an ounce of responsibility in the entire crew controlling things at GM, and for most other companies I think. They not only want to have their cake and eat it too they want to eat from everyone else's plate and force them to like it. This is systemic. The airlines are using bankruptcy to put the screws to their employees already. Worldcomm, Enron, the airlines, GM. We, those of us in at least Michigan and Ohio, are going to get 25,000 new McDonalds workers IF they can find the work. And this is the capitalist model we want to force on everyone else in the world? All take and no give? I am so tired of hearing things like, These are the realities of the situation..., Our profit margin is not big enough., The problem is due to the high cost of energy., We have to impose these wage and benefit cuts because..., and on and on and on. What confounds me is that their machinations are so obviously transparent and so many people just accept what they say and go along with it. Talk about cranial-rectal inversion. I really do not understand how we allow those with money and power to divert our attention by setting one class/religion/race/country/economic system or whatever against another and thereby control us. Are we that stupid? If we aren't then why, as we are being bent over and raped, do we turn our heads and say, Please, use a coarser grade of sandpaper.? It is all too apparent that the political and economic powers that be of all countries are not truly interested in the welfare of the world in general. Neither the welfare of either the entire human race or the world of nature. The welfare they are most interested in is the immediate bottom line. How sad. There has been a lot of talk on this list and others and among the general public (in the US) about our flag, our military, honor, duty, etc., etc., etc. Well folks, flags, all flags, are only bits of rag which are worth nothing. None of them. One flag is not worth the life of one individual human being. Nor is the bottom line, or race, or nationality, or religion, or political persuasion, or economic system or any other extraneous condition. No one owns the truth. Not the Christians, or the Muslims, or the Jews, or the Hindus, or the Buddhists, or any religious group, or the philosophers, or the economists, or the politicians. No one. Each have bits and pieces and snatches of the truth and many claim to have and own the whole thing but that is an illusion or an outright lie. If we burnt ever single book in the world, bar none, every holy text and philosophical and ethical treatise, everything, we would be left with ourselves and what resides within. What are we going to point to then for justification of our excesses? Who are we going to blame? There are some things which appear to defy logic but they really don't. We just don't have all the information even though we may think we do or we don't understand what we are seeing or we aren't seeing it because we're looking in the wrong places or for the wrong thing. One has to see the dots before they can be connected. One has to get beyond name and form to recognize substance. It is a matter of perception and association.That which perceives can perceive everything it is supposed to except...itself. Simple, elemental and oh so difficult to understand let alone own. Friends, we are all one. One race one world. None more important than the other, none of more or less worth. If we can't treat each other and our world with respect then we are headed to hell in a handcart and getting what we deserve. The differences I have seen are artificial constructs and not worth spit. Do others find it odd that some of us claim that God or the gods created us, our world and everything and others of us claim that everything came into being naturally through evolution but what we find important is not the product of this
Re[2]: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
Hallo Ron, Turn your question around on yourself brother. Let's say you have all the military experience in the world but you are content to believe the hogwash dumped into your consciousness by a blatantly biased government working hand-in-hand with a blatantly biased big business community and then you, without checking to see whether or not you are getting the truth, all the truth not just the parts which make one thing look like another, and you go out and act on that information as if it were from the mouth of GOD, and that is what a good many people, particularly those in the military, are doing then how does that make it any better or different to those who believe a blatantly biased anti military press? The press is mainly just a dis-information service for the government in most things. Did you ever wonder why some of the press might be anti military? Have you noticed that in My Lai it was a lowly lieutenant who bit the bullet? Did you notice that it is a few enlisted and a female reserve general who bent over for the military while those in actual control who dictated the actions are merrily whistling on their way? Do you understand that in actual fact you have to carry out an unlawful act and report it after the fact? That isn't the way it is written but that is how it works. Are you aware that Richard Clarke, Colin Powell's intel chief, told Powell FOUR MONTHS before his UN presentation that not only had the intel not shown the info Powell was going to give to be true it had shown it to be false? Are you aware that Lt. Col. Kwaitkowski who was an intel analyst in the Near East South Asia section of the Middle East Policy Directorate of the Pentagon reports that political appointees with political agendas were installed in the Pentagon and that all intelligence was run through them to the president and that bits and pieces of the intel were woven together to support a preconceived and false conclusion? Todd does his homework brother. If the first hand experience you are speaking of is sighting down a barrel and pulling the trigger on some poor bastard you don't even know then he doesn't need it and neither does anyone else. What they don't tell you when you enlist is that when that happens you have to live with yourself for the rest of your life with the knowledge of what you have done and sooner or later that will come back and bite you in the ass. You can take that to the bank. I'm living with that 40 years later. My uncle lived with that from the first world war on. My father from the second world war on and my cousin from Korea on. And these poor kids in Iraq are going to bring that back home with them and carry that in their hearts for the rest of their lives. Thank God Todd doesn't have any first hand experience. It is unfortunate that so many of us do and will. My kids won't. They may die for their country but they won't kill for it. When people talk about rendering unto Caesar they should remember that Caesar may have given them a place to live but not their lives and Caesar has no right to force one to render someone else's life unto him. Happy Happy, Gustl Saturday, 04 June, 2005, 05:01:04, you wrote: r So what you are saying is, you have NO first hand experience. That you r are content to spread second hand info spewed out by a blatantly r biased anti military press. And bases on NO first hand info you are r content to accept all the flotsam they give you and pass it along as if r it were from the mouth of GOD. Does that about sum it up? r Ron r Appal Energy wrote: Ron, Why would you find it necessary to try and delve into personal exeriences when the public record and the dis-service to America is blatantly and patently apparent? -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
Hallo Larry, Friday, 03 June, 2005, 09:00:10, you wrote: ...snip... LF Feel free to protest the administrations positions/policies, but LF protesting military recruitment is dishonoring those who place their LF lives on the line in defence of the freedoms we enjoy each day. LF Military personnel are following the orders of elected civilian LF officials. Military personnel do not have the latitude to dissent LF (unless those orders are unlawful). ...snip You see, this is the bit with which I have a problem. What dishonors the men and women of our armed forces is going to Iraq and dying for an amply demonstrated and proven lie. The only honor our troops have in a dishonorable war is their own personal honor, and this is nothing if not a dishonorable war. Secondly, our troops are not placing their lives on the line in defense of our freedoms. They are placing their lives on the line in defense of a political and religious ideological position which is at odds with the truth and the facts. This regime may use the language of the religious right but they have gone way beyond simple fundamentalist Christianity into Christian reconstructionism and Christian dominionist dogma which is radical and at its root as evil as anything gets. They are placing their lives on the line for another lie and it is immoral and absolutely outrageous. And lastly brother, it comes to elected and I know you mean a free and democratic election. But, when you have Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee to vote for and you do not receive all the facts, all the truth, all the information you cannot make an informed decision and if ones decision is not an informed decision then ones vote is not a real vote. It cannot be free and democratic. The phrases, ...in the interest of national security... and ...that information is classified... serve to cover up a lot of evil. The machine is corrupt to the core and rigged to stay that way. Votes do not control the country big money and big politics do, and all the hogs feed from the same trough at the end of the day. Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative, moderate or radical. Good and honest people do not enter politics without doing one of three things: (a) leaving politics soon, (b) becoming ineffectual or (c) ceasing to be good and honorable people. No exceptions. If folks don't play by their rules they don't play. We have the liberty in this land of liberty to protest and criticize whomever we please. We don't have the liberty to slander or libel folks but no one has immunity from reasonable criticism including the military. If the military fights and dies for these freedoms then how are we disallowed from using them whether someone else likes what we say or not? If people are not free to speak and voice their opinions then we can just chalk up one more lie. No one is dishonored by open and honest criticism or by someone speaking the truth as they see it. Disallowing someone that right would be a dishonor to our service personnel past and present. If freedom and truth is what our country is about then let's have it and if it isn't then let's be up front about what it is: money, power and control. The people of this country, like most other if not all other countries, are good, fair, honest and generous folks. But brother, the government and big business concerns are not the people. They are soulless institutions looking out for their own welfare and to maintain the status quo. Don't confuse the individual with the institution. The recruiter is two things at once. A tool of the government and a person. Criticism of the tool is not necessarily and I would think not even the same as criticism of the person. The honor of the recruiter or the military person comes from the person not from the institution. I understand that this is an emotional thing for former military people but it is something we have to get and be clear on. FYI I have 7 years 9 months and 20 days of honorable service with 2 honorable discharges and 2 extended Nam tours totalling 33.5 months and our unit received the meritorious unit citation of or work there. My service was honorable. My war was not. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Biofuel and Oil Burning Furnaces
Hallo Tom, I am not the one to ask about rubber and biodiesel. It is my impression that the two get along fine although they have a bad reputation to the contrary but I don't know that as fact. I just put the rubber bit in there in case someone had concerns about biodiesel and rubber coming into contact because in my fuel oil burner they don't and I don't believe they do in any others. Todd or some of the others can tell you definitively. Just consider me a half blind old fart hobbling around muttering to himself trying to make sense of things. ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl Friday, 01 April, 2005, 16:53:08, you wrote: TI Greetings Gustl, TI I was under the impression from my reading that viton rubber would be ok in TI contact with biodiesel. If I«m wrong about this someone please say so. All TI metal is definitely better as I imagine even viton will degrade in a 5 or 10 TI year time span just due to the heat. As far as the burner is concerned I TI think if it can run diesel heating oil it should be fine with Bio D. Unless TI it«s really cold the Bio D should flow even better. Anyone else have TI comments? TI Tom Irwin TI -Original Message- TI From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender TI To: Biofuel TI Sent: 1/04/05 9:00 TI Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel and Oil Burning Furnaces TI Hallo Folks, TI We have run out of wood and I am not fit to cut and split it at this TI time so we had to use our fuel oil furnace which needed more attention TI than I was qualified to give it. TI I spoke to Erv, the repairman, about the problems with diesel Nr. 1 TI and Nr. 2 and then asked him about biofuel and the furnace. He told TI me there were no rubber parts at all that would touch the biofuel and TI that the only thing which would need to be changed for it to work TI would possibly be the nozzle. TI I have seen this topic several times on the list but don't remember TI the details of the discussion. Thought this might be of some use to TI someone. I know I will be heating with biofuel this winter. TI Happy Happy, TI Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Biofuel and Oil Burning Furnaces
Hallo Folks, We have run out of wood and I am not fit to cut and split it at this time so we had to use our fuel oil furnace which needed more attention than I was qualified to give it. I spoke to Erv, the repairman, about the problems with diesel Nr. 1 and Nr. 2 and then asked him about biofuel and the furnace. He told me there were no rubber parts at all that would touch the biofuel and that the only thing which would need to be changed for it to work would possibly be the nozzle. I have seen this topic several times on the list but don't remember the details of the discussion. Thought this might be of some use to someone. I know I will be heating with biofuel this winter. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Where's Keith?
Hallo Ken, Friday, 25 March, 2005, 21:55:30, you wrote: KP If I wasn't such a lurker, I'd probly know this, but... KP Where's Keith? I trust all's well... Keith is back in the hospital for reasons unknown to me at this time. I would suggest prayer for those holding with prayer and good thoughts sent his way for those not so inclined. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] wind powered water pumps
Hallo Mary Lynn, For those of us for whom English is a second language we should be clear. A windmill is a grain grinding mill powered by wind. Windmill is not a generic name for any wind powered apparatus although it is used as such by many. Many people if not most people still call a wind turbine a windmill. The case is the same for steam shovel although the steam has not been used for these many decades. Just for clarity for those whose English is not native to them. Happy Happy, Gustl Thursday, 24 March, 2005, 20:22:36, you wrote: MS Is this a windmill? MS This is what they were used for in middle america .. as I'm sure many other MS places. MS Mary Lynn MS Mary Lynn Schmidt MS ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART MS TTouch . Animal Behavior Modification . Behavior Problems . Ordained MS Minister . MS Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Radionics . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . MS Herbs. . Polarity . Reiki . Spiritual Travel MS The Animal Connection Healing Modalities MS http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] wind powered water pumps Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:02:48 -0600 Greetings Juan, Thank you and yes, I did download that book when Kirk listed it. It is very good about generating power from wind, but I don't want to create power. I want a pre-electric wind powered water pump. Mankind has been using them for thousands of years, so they should be reasonably easy to make and maintain. Bright Blessings, KIm At 11:50 AM 3/23/2005, you wrote: Hello Kim Thanks to the list member Kirk McLoren I found a very interesting link to an e-book on wind energy, it was inside the message he posted the 21th of septembrer 2004. I pasted the message if you do not find it searching the archives. There you might find what you are looking for. Best Regards Juan -Original Message- FromKirk McLoren [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: September 21, 2004 5:00 PM For:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:[Biofuel] Wind Energy Systems free download -- book http://www.eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/ Revised January 29, 2004 Dr. Gary L. Johnson taught electrical engineering at Kansas State University for 28 years before taking early retirement in 1994. He wrote a textbook Wind Energy Systems which was used in a senior elective course for many years. Prentice-Hall let the book go out of print and gave the copyright back to Dr. Johnson. The revised and expanded version was then used for several more years. This textbook is available at no charge in .pdf files, listed below. The file contents.pdf has a title page, prefaces, and table of contents. The files wind1.pdf through wind9.pdf are the nine chapters of the book. Please send Dr. Johnson an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED], telling him of the download. That will help justify keeping this site open. ___ -Original Message- From: Kim Garth Travis [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 23, 2005 12:18 PM For:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:[Biofuel] wind powered water pumps Greetings, I have been through all my reference books, etc. and I can not find any information on wind powered water pumps. Does any one have the directions for building one? What are they capable of and other such information will be appreciated. Bright Blessings, Kim ___ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ MS ___ MS Biofuel mailing list MS [EMAIL PROTECTED] MS http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel MS Biofuel at Journey to Forever: MS http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html MS Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): MS http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a
[Biofuel] Email Problems
Hallo Folks, My email client decided to correct an error in the mail database and it ate all my mail from yesterday back to 4 January. If anyone has sent me a private email lately would you please send it again if I didn't get it answered? Thank you kindly. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Just For Clarity
Hallo Friends, This is George Washington's proclamation establishing Thanksgiving Day in the United States. Please note that Washington speaks towards the end of the proclamation of true religion which I define and I believed he and all reasonable folks define as that personal relationship one has with what I choose to call ones maker (God) but others may call something else as in the case of humanists or atheists, such as reason, morals, virtue, whatever. I believe Washington's definition would be similar to mine but I could be wrong. Each of us has different understanding and abilities and predilictions which is determined by many different things. It is neither wise nor advisable to look down upon, despise or discount the belief system or lack of one of another person or culture. It is far better to work towards mutual understanding and cooperation. We are only able to do and act upon our own understanding. There may be only one way but that one way applies, as near as I can tell, to each of us as individuals and where differences appear in name and form the substance may remain the same. I and my way are no better than Todd and his way. They are different but they work for each of us. We can only do the best we are able and ones best is all we can reasonably ask of each other. My response to Allen's essay was not meant to either uphold or discount the basic argument (which I happen to agree with in general) but to merely correct a proposition I knew to have been false. I would hope that if I were to make such an error that someone would point it out to me, and believe me some have at times. :o) My interest is in the truth and accuracy not in winning a debate with Todd or being hurtful or resentful. I hope that is understood by the list members, particularly Todd, as I have a great respect for him and his abilities. Truth matters. Words matter. Reason and reasonableness matter. Happy Happy, Gustl The proclamation, reprinted below may be found at the following website: http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/thanksgiving/transcript.html The Thanksgiving Proclamation New York, 3 October 1789 Introduction | The Proclamation | Handwritten Letter | Editorial Apparatus [New York, 3 October 1789] By the President of the United States of America. a Proclamation. Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor--and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness. Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be--That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks--for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the tranquillity, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us. and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions--to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually--to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed--to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness onto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord--To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us--and generally to grant unto all Mankind
Re[6]: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution
Hallo Todd, Of course, but if you're going to grind an axe you ought to know how to do so properly. I've been heating with wood for over 30 years and have seen a lot of folks grind at wrong angles and screw the thing up and have seen them grinding when they should have been honing and so forth. I guess it's the same with debates. ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl Thursday, 17 February, 2005, 20:07:38, you wrote: AE Gustl, Better to build bridges than to grind axes. AE It takes a sharp axe to build a bridge. And better to keep the edge than to AE let others dull it into disrepair with their abuse. AE Todd Swearingen -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re[4]: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution
Hallo Todd, Thursday, 17 February, 2005, 20:02:00, you wrote: AE Gustl, AE If you'll notice, the exception that I took was to the absolutism AE that you expressed. The Founding Fathers were not religious men, This bit is absolutely false. Yes, responding in kind to her absolutist remark. Perhaps if not probably not a wise choice, but I did limit it to ONLY that remark and hers is a false premise. The problem I have with your reply is not with you, but with letting others, whether those others be contemporary society or Webster's dictionary for that matter, control my world and conception of reality by controlling the language. Webster's reflects current usage and it seems to me it does conveniently alter meanings with time. Besides this, you know that I makeacleardistinction between religion-religious and organized-religion-religious and you also know that I believe in individual liberty and a reasonable separation of church and state. Yet you end this up by apparently arguing against something I didn't say. Nowhere have I ever advocated any specific religion. You are arguing against things in your own head brother, not mine. It is not a far reach to declare that at least 13 of them were religious, and that makes the they portion of Allen's proposition false. It would be a far and impossible reach however to declare that the advocated any specific religion. The drive towards religious thought may be as innate as the drive towards personal survival. Religion comes from the inward out and has been with us since before words. I will not allow the Holy Roman church or the Baptist church or any religious authority to define for me what is possibly my most fundamental urge. I will certainly not allow Webster's to do so nor will I allow another to control the definitions. To control the definitions is to control the argument which is why, in debate, definitions are first agreed upon. I believe the founding fathers viewed religion much the same as I view religion and that is strictly personal and subjective and not imposed by some outside authority. Ones religion defines for that person ones relation to the cosmos. It is just a person and their relationship to the other. It begins before we are able to understand and once we have that ability we realize how much we will never be able to understand. Perhaps that is where the organized church started...taking this bit and that bit and claiming this is all there is and they know because they have religious authority. Who knows? But I haven't bought that lie and I won't bend over and allow any authority to stick definitions which control my thoughts and world up where the sun doesn't shine. I also will not reject everything any religion says out of hand just because I have found some or even most of their teachings to be false. The baby doesn't go out with the bathwater. I have learned to be selective and to keep the flowers growing in the manure and let the manure lay. We have been on this list for a while and I believe you are aware of how I define religion and that I make a distinction between religion and organized religion. I also believe that you know that Allen was not making that distinction and that the founding fathers do fall into the category of religious men under the terms of my definition and at least for the 13 Freemasons under their terms. So Todd, with whom are you arguing? It appears to me that you are arguing with your own religious background. I have defined my terms from day one here and those men fit my definition which is broad but specific. It allows for anyone regardless of affiliation or lack thereof. It gives one breathing space and allows for differences of not only opinion but also in understanding, discernment, apprehension and definition. Allen would have everyone painted with the same brush and I do not accept that. To go back to an old subject. There are places in this world where cows are sacred and some where they are not. Are those who revere cows religious or not? And those who don't? How about the proverbial ascetic living in the cave in the mountain? Would you be willing to let Webster's narrow and erroneous definition define you? How about if they put Todd Swearington in the dictionary and then put down what they thought described you? That wouldn't float. But we constantly let authorities shape and control our world by accepting how they define it and fitting ourselves into their mold. It boggles ones mind. This is why I keep repeating myself. We are not talking about religious differences we are talking about sectarian, creedal differences. Differences in our cultures and upbringing and how we are taught to express our understanding. If three people are
Re[6]: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution
Hallo Todd, Friday, 18 February, 2005, 14:55:40, you wrote: ...snip before and after... AE It's not what was written and the exception which you have taken AE and/or your apparent umbrage is certainly not warranted. AE Todd Swearingen My grandson has come to spend the next 3 days with us so my keyboard time will be non-existent until I take him home so I won't be able to get back to this properly until at least Tuesday. First and foremost Todd, there is no anger or resentment or ill will at all on my part directed towards you or anyone else. If you feel there is then I apologize for not being clear enough. Friends can disagree, even strongly disagree, without umbrage being taken and I don't have a gram of it in me over this or anything else you have ever said. It is neither constructive nor beneficial and besides, you and I have a lot more in common than we have differences. Reasonable people can disagree without rancor. We can get back to disagreeing on Tuesday or Wednesday if that will suit. ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution
Hallo Todd, (Sorry this is so late. I have been out of town and unwell.) Tuesday, 15 February, 2005, 10:56:35, you wrote: If you will notice you will see that I took no exception with the essay aside from this: The Founding Fathers were not religious men, This bit is absolutely false. The problem I have with your reply is not with you, but with letting others, whether those others be contemporary society or Webster's dictionary for that matter, control my world and conception of reality by controlling the language. We give up enough control of our own lives as it is without allowing the few to mainpulate the many through our respective languages whether the few happen to be political, economic, religious or any other kind of authorities. What you are describing below is organized religion not religion itself. A deist is still a religious person whether they are part of an organized group or sit alone in a cave in a mountain. The concern of the founding fathers was with ones personal liberty and freedom and that folks not be required by the state to believe or disbelieve one way or the other by anyone particularly the state. They didn't want a state church established. Their intent was very clear and and obvious and was clearly stated. We have allowed partisan interests with what I would consider extreme and unreasonable views to manipulate us into this situation to further their own agendas and to assert their will in order to control the rest of us. If we are going to allow others who are unreasonable to define and control us then we are going to have to accept that a blowjob isn't sex, an outright lie is a failure of intel, that allowing private banks to collect interest called the nationl debt on money that neither exists nor has anything of worth to back it is in the best interests of people (fractional banking), and that there is such a thing as a good war. Religion comes from the inside out and although worship may be corporate and beliefs shared, religion is personal and subjective. Anything else may have name and form but it lacks substance. Creed and sectarianism not religion. They don't teach religion in the seminaries and theological schools they teach their own partisan apprehension of religion. That doesn't make it genuine or valid. But anyway, to say that the founding fathers were not religious men is just patently absurd. Some were some weren't. What they definitely were is not willing to have what the believed or didn't believe shoved down their throats and they weren't willing to shove it down others throats either. Seems to me they were relatively reasonable men unlike today. We don't seem to have evolved enough to be reasonable folks. I would imagine that suits Big Brother just fine because then he can step in and make the rules and define our words and lives for us because we are too stupid to learn to get along with one another and resolve our differences reasonably and peacefully. Leben und leben lassen. Jeder spinnt anders. Happy Happy, Gustl AE Gustl, AE I don't think you'd find it as false a claim as you might think if you apply AE the generally accepted, contemporary, rough translation of religion and AE religious to the matter. Even if you strictly applied the definitions AE found in Websters, you would quickly see that they don't stick very well to AE those who don't adhere to the extremes of worship and systemized ritual. AE Their beliefs were by-and-large all encompassing, incorporating AE fundamental tenants found in almost all religions, not specifically the AE tenants and doctrines of any one religion. AE When you combine their almost unanimous acknowledgements of diety with their AE discord for organized religion, its constructs and decripitudes, you would AE probably come up with a more precise akin to 'The founding fathers were AE deists, not men of religion,' which the author does go to great lengths to AE verify. AE All in all his statement is to a very large degree correct. And, as you may AE have noticed, it certainly gets the dander up for some, eh? AE :-) AE Quite the nicely written and well thought out piece of work - far more AE accurate than the habitual abuse of historic fact for the purpose of AE idealogical gain being rendered by the self-appointed elitists of the day. AE Todd Swearingen AE - Original Message - AE From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AE To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AE Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 10:17 AM AE Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:38:52 -0800 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (knoton) wrote: Our Godless Constitution by BROOKE ALLEN [from the February 21, 2005 issue] The Founding Fathers were not religious men, This bit is absolutely false. What our founding fathers were were religious men who knew the importance of
Re[4]: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution
Hallo Mike, Thursday, 17 February, 2005, 08:16:47, you wrote: MR Hi Gustl, MR There is a little known fact about the founding fathers that might MR shed some additional light as to whether or not they were MR religious. MR Thirteen signers of the constitution were Freemasons. In order to MR be a member of the fraternity, you need to declare your faith in MR God. You do not have to subscribe to a particular religion. But, MR you must be monotheistic. Yes, I am aware of that. However, a discussion of Freemasonry is not a subject I am willing to broach on the list. Just as in the anti-zionist/anti-semetic debate there would be a lot of dissention, harsh language and hard feelings over this. I purposely kept my mouth shut on this. I just don't understand how folks allow themselves to get so worked up over some subjects, particularly about things which they have little first hand experience and which they cannot change, not to mention that lumping all people of one belief or another into one pot just doesn't work. Individuals are individuals and although they may be part of some group of whatever sort they need to be given a chance to show themselves as themselves and be judged on that rather than whatever organization, ethnic group, religion or whatever they happen to be a member of. I will check out your reference here. Never too old to learn. :o) MR http://www.freemasonry.org/psoc/masonicmyths.htm MR Mike MR P.S. Maybe we're related. My Grandmother's last name is MR Rombach-Steiner. She's an Emmentaler. ...any relatives in MR Switzerland? :-) Well, the Steiners are from Austria/Bavaria, the Zehenders from Bavaria/Baden-Wrtemburg but the Farners are nearly all from Canton Zrich in Switzerland. That doesn't mean that there are no Steiners there. Just none I am aware of but I also have never done any geneaology research in the family. I just listen to those who have. At any rate, whether by creation or by evolution we are, somewhere down the line, related. Nice to make your acquaintance cousin. ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re[4]: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution
Hallo Dave, No, Allen specifically states that the founders were not religious men. I quoted that in my first mail to Todd and that was my only beef with the article. It is patently false. Where he is right he is right and where he is wrong he is wrong and he was wrong in that statement. Bending the truth or bending definitions in order to prevail in an argument don't impress me much.Intellectually dishonest. Idiots all around on either side of the question if you ask me, which you admittedly didn't. What the author was trying to do was sway an audience and right out of the box he came out with a statement which was demontratively false. It did not seem good enough to him evidently to demonstrate that the founding fathers wanted a separation of church and state and the individual right to choose what one wanted to believe or disbelieve, but he appears to have some need to twist facts to prove or give credence to his theme. He didn't do his homework and he was running on assumptions which can be falsified. A valid argument perhaps but certainly not sound. Mike is absolutely correct about the Freemason connection of the signers and also correct that one must declare oneself a religious person with faith in God to become a Freimauer. So brother, that case is closed. Allen is either intellectually sloppy or dishonest in any case and why should one waste ones time reading such a shoddily researched piece? If he knew about the connection to the Freemasons then he was dishonest and building his case around a false premise and if he didn't know then he was either lazy or sloppy and in a hurry to prove them wrong and us right. We wouldn't take this from a chemist or mathmatician so why on God's green earth should we take it from an obviously partisan essayist? Please note that while I do consider myself a religious person I also am a firm believer in ones personal liberty to choose or reject any belief system without prejudice or penalty. Even Allens. From my perspective this whole thing is not about whether or not the founding fathers were religious or not or whether they wanted separation of church and state. For me this isn't about God or Christianity or religion at all. This is about truth and accuracy and accountability...discipline, reason, restraint, honesty. If we can't even get from A to C with integrity how are we going to make it to Z? It seems to me we have to be honest with ourselves if we are going to be honest with others and that if we are going to sell a good product we have to work at it properly or it will end up shoddy. Mr. Allen is selling a shoddy project whether by design or accident. Happy Happy, Gustl Thursday, 17 February, 2005, 11:26:52, you wrote: Hi Gustl, D ... Thirteen signers of the constitution were Freemasons. In order to be a member of the fraternity, you need to declare your faith in God. You do not have to subscribe to a particular religion. But, you must be monotheistic. http://www.freemasonry.org/psoc/masonicmyths.htm Mike D Lets look at what the first article (Allen's article) stated: D First, it implied that the founders were NOT religious (hook). D Then, it pointed out that the bulk of them believed in god but D didn't necessarily endorse christ to the extent that say, Pat D Roberston does. Then, it detailed information regarding founders D such as Franklyn and Paine. D I think the author was trying, in earnest, to separate the concept D of christianity from the documents used to define the creation of a D sovereign nation. To presume god and jesus are the same is a D christian belief. I think its difficult for many christians to D comprehend that others don't hold this belief; just as its D difficult for many to comprehend that god and Ala are also not the D same. D So it stands to reason that Bush claims to be a christian (albiet a D hypocritical one) and as such he is giving his opinion that the D cretion of the USA was based on christianity because he believes D any mention of god is also a mention of jesus christ. D And its my belief, like many, that Bush is trying to push his set D of beliefs into the government in order to fit the agenda of his D followers (not the least of which think they too can talk to god). D Well, I can talk to god and I'm giving him an ear full of what I D think of this nonsense. I'll report back as soon as I get a reply. D regards, D dave -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution
Hallo Robert, Thursday, 17 February, 2005, 15:46:06, you wrote: rlr Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: Hallo Dave, No, Allen specifically states that the founders were not religious men. I quoted that in my first mail to Todd and that was my only beef with the article. It is patently false. Where he is right he is right and where he is wrong he is wrong and he was wrong in that statement. rlr Sorry to butt into your discussion, Gustl, but the author was a rlr woman. Brooke Allen has an axe to grind, and you're right about her rlr errors. No, not at all. Mistakes need to be corrected and I appreciate you pointing out mine. rlr However, she does make some excellent points. The rlr contemporary tendency to view America's founding fathers as rlr evangelical, dispensationalist believing, born again Bible thumpers rlr is the perspective she tried to counter. Yes, she does make some excellent point which is why I confined my initial comment to her false assertion. And it should be countered, but with accuracy. No good in grinding on an axe where it doesn't need to be ground. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re[4]: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution
Hallo Dave, Thursday, 17 February, 2005, 17:20:19, you wrote: ...snip... D Gustl, D After re-reading the text I do see that Allen did indeed say they D wern't religious. Though, I take it as a contridiction in her D writing in that she (as we know know) says they are deists. I D missed it, but she makes the claim that if your not christian your D not religious... and I know a few jewish people who are very D religious and definitly not christian. But her point still stands D in that the documents and rhetoric for the founding of my country D is not based on the teachings of jesus christ and the new D testament. And we are all in agreement that Bush himself doesn't D run the country as if its based on christiantiy (espically when you D look at Bush's love of war and the death penalty and Matthew D 5:38-48) D -dave We are not in disagreement here which is why I only pointed out the inaccurate bit and didn't criticize the rest. Her essay didn't need that bit and detracted from it. Better to build bridges than to grind axes. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re[4]: [Biofuel] Martin's Job
Hallo Luc, This is yet another form letter to let you know I have received your donation of $40.00 (US),4,120.00 Japanese Yen and to let you know that despite this being a form letter I, Keith, Midori, Martin and the entire Biofuels list (I am sure) thank you for your help, kindness and generosity. Thank you again friend. Be well and happy. Happy Happy, Gustl And some non-form mail. The list has come a long way I think. One thing which may cause some some difficulty is having to keep repeating things when it comes to politics and the misinformation which is spread about nearly everything but it is necessary. It not only corrects (or attempts to correct) folks misconceptions it re-inforces things for those who are not yet certain. I am thinking mainly now of my fellow citizens who have been spoonfed this malicious my country right or wrong crap from the cradle on. They seem to equate the hostility towards the evil actions of our government with hostility towards common US citizens. They lose any rational critical thinking skills they may have had as soon as they hear anything they deem anti-American. But they are slowly learning. There is hope and it encourages me. It also allows people to see that not all of us are the idiots some of us are. Communication at its best. I hope you and yours are well and happy brother. I remember you in my daily prayers. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth
[Biofuel] Mis-sent mail
Hallo All, I must apologize to Luc and the list for inadvertantly mailing a private mail to the list concerning his donation amount. I did not notice that the mailing list address was in the reply to: section of his header on the mail. I will be more careful and attentive in the future. Please accept my apology. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Donation Acknowledgements
Hallo Peggy, Tuesday, 04 January, 2005, 20:50:04, you wrote: P Hello Gustl, P Is it appropriate to ask how we are doing with numbers of responses and P contributions? Just wondering if there is a need to repeat the request P for help or if goals are reasonable satisfied. P Thanks, P Peggy Of course it is appropriate. :o) I have been contacted by 15 list members for my address and have received donations from six of them and have donated myself. We have received a total of $350 to date. While that is impressive from just seven people I had really hoped to spread the burden a little thinner and to have been able to report to Keith and Martin substantially more. With over 2,000 list members I had hoped that with a dollar or two apiece from somewhere pushing close to half of us that would be a burden we could share and bear. I just checked into what it would cost to upgrade my computer and to put it in decent shape hardware wise (cpu, mainboard, memory, hard disk of a decent size) I would have to pay $500 or more. I know that running a server and upgrading that is even more costly. I won't be upgrading my computer anytime soon by the way. :o) From my point of view this is an effort in community building, right living and effort. Just as in any family we have our difficulties but in the end we are interested in the welfare of the family and helping those in the family (and again from my point of view we are all members of the human family). This list and JtF are perhaps only small things in the narrow view but it is more often than not the small things which make the most difference. In this case this small thing is working to make the lives of us all better. The efforts and cooperation of Keith and Martin, and indeed all on this list, are aimed at making a kinder and better world for us all. There may be those who are interested only in their own gain but I believe them to be in the minority. If we are nothing else we are a small example of how things can and hopefully will someday be. I appreciate, and know that both Keith and Martin do also, the generosity of those kind folks who have donated to this worthy effort. If anyone else cares to pitch in I have no plans to go anywhere for a while and will be happy to receive and pass on any further donations. More money is needed but not expected as this is a purely voluntary effort. I view each gift as an unexpected surprise and am grateful. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Seeds
Hallo Robert, Try these folks: http://www.seedsofchange.com/ Happy Happy, Gustl Monday, 03 January, 2005, 01:44:16, you wrote: rlr Hello everyone! rlr My sweetheart and I have been planning our garden for this year. rlr Last year's vegetables were, by far, the most successful we have ever rlr managed; a fact particularly heartening when the poor condition of our rlr soil is considered. (We're still eating fresh carrots, which we have rlr left in the ground. Even in January, they are sweet and firm!) rlr We'd used old seed. Our corn was especially pathetic. Tomatoes (the rlr texture of which I liken to biting a human lip) stayed green until the rlr rain arrived in October, then simply rotted. (This was a shame rlr because my eldest son is particularly fond of them.) Squash, peas, rlr purple beans, beets, potatoes, pumpkins, radishes and carrots did rlr exceedingly well. Our broccoli was very late, but especially rlr delicious. Cabbage did well for the first part of the summer, then rlr the weather turned REALLY hot and the heads tended to split. rlr Aside from the pumpkins, (which were fine grained and sweet) fruit rlr didn't fare very well. Melons and cantaloupe never really developed. rlr Our fruit trees are weak, but I'm working on that. . . rlr We want to use fresh seed this year. Do any of you have any rlr recommendations for cool, west coast climate vegetables? We would rlr prefer a seed distributor located in western Canada or the United States. -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Titration problems
Hallo Bob, Monday, 27 December, 2004, 18:47:47, you wrote: b Romans 2:13 is also applicable. It reads: For not the hearers of the law b are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. In other b words it isn't those who pay lip service to the law (i.e basic human b morality) but those who practise it who are seen as just in the eyes of God. b That means that even if you have no belief in God in terms of Christian b ideology, whether from ignorance or choice, it is your actions and not your b beliefs that justify you. b Bob. I believe it is the content of your heart which justifies you and that your actions reflect that content. Perhaps just semantics? Be well and happy brother. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Hallo Peter, Hakan, All, One thing I think everyone should understand is that all governments spy on one another. No one has clean hands in this area. The US spied on China? So what? China spies on us and everyone else just like everyone else. Espionage of one sort or another is as old as civilization. Economic, political, military. No matter. It happens because of self interest and despite our best philosophical and religious teachings we have not yet learned that we are all one. Until we learn that this sort of thing is going to keep on happening and we apparently are never going to learn this lesson. Those of us who have learned this lesson are in the minority and fighting an uphill battle, but it is one which we need to keep on fighting. Governments are only friendly to one another when it serves their purpose. When they find they have divergent interests then they may appear to be friendly but in reality they are not. They share information and resources when it is in their interests and when it is not they withhold the same or pass on false and misleading information or make excuses as to why they cannot help. Again, no one has clean hands here. It is my sincere hope that given the internet and the possibility of communicating with others in other countries that we come to realize that people in general all want the same thing for themselves which is peace and enough. Enough food, shelter, work, friendship, safety. There are those few at the top who want it all and they are the ones who manipulate the rest for their own ends. If we pay attention we can see this. If we don't then things will not change. The blame game is not the best thing for us to be playing. It is better to recognize that every country has its good and bad points, its faults and its advantages. No country has the market cornered on good or evil. When I was in the military I was in Naples, Italy and there was a certain section of town which was off limits because it was a Communist stronghold and both the Italian and US authorities thought it would be dangerous for a US serviceman to go there. Of course I went there straight away. I sat down in a bar and ordered beer and the commies came up and started talking to me. At first they were a bit cautious and hostile and we certainly had different views of how the world should be run but we found common ground on what we all wanted which was peace and enough. When the Italian police and US military police found out there was a serviceman in the place they tried to come in and take me out and arrest me but my enemies, the commies refused them admittance and hustled me out the back door to another place where we continued our conversation undisturbed. No minds were changed that day when it came to politics but a mutual understanding and respect was achieved without violence and without strife. It is possible. I have seen how far this list has come from a year ago and am amazed and impressed. We have had our disagreements and not everyone thinks the same but with reason and tolerance we have become a pretty good family unit I think. Those who have sought to disrupt the list because of their own self interests and beliefs are gone in the main. Those of us left are civil, tolerant and reasonable in the main. We still have a ways to go but then we are always going to have a ways to go. Perfection doesn't seem destined for this world but that doesn't mean we should stop trying. If our governments, militaries and economic entities want to play at division let the common people play at peace and cooperation. Much has been achieved with more to follow. There is always hope for change. Happy Happy, Gustl Wednesday, 29 December, 2004, 22:40:12, you wrote: GM Hi Hakan ; ...snip... GM My point is that there was an accident for whatever GM reason, the plane made an emergency landing, the crew GM was detained, the plane stripped, the situation GM threatend to escalate out of control. Now we can GM endlessly debate who was at fault, but a lot of people GM who are much more knowledgable than me have done it GM already with no conclusion. So I have not dared GM venture into that area. I'm surprised you would. I GM just say that if an accident happened in another GM country (I wouldn't say that Russia is a good example GM of a friend country), the situation would have GM played out differently. Do you agree? GM My point is that these are not the actions of a GM friend. What do we mean by friend ? A friend can be GM wronged and not retaliate. The US spies on all of GM it's friends. Personally I don't think this is GM right, but I rather not get into this debate. GM Echelon, thought to be operated by the National GM Security Agency, is present in Thailand with the full GM support and co-operation of the Thai
[Biofuel] Donation Acknowledgements
Hallo Folks, If anyone who has sent me a donation for the list/JtF has not received an acknowledgement email please let me know. Also, if I have failed to send out the receipts for a tax deductible donation again please let me know. I think I am on top of this but it seems these days that what I think and what I know do not always agree. I hope you all have a good new year and many more following them. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
