Re: [Tagging] How to tag a Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (US:DMV)
Sent from my iPhone On Jun 10, 2015, at 12:15 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Tue Jun 9 16:06:40 2015 GMT+0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2015-06-09 14:37 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org: How would you tag a shop that sells tax stamps and licenses, but is not a government office, and does not provide other services? The Oklahoma Tax Commission uses such a system throughout the state (authorized tag agents) to save people the hassle of having to drive down to their office on the capitol mall in Oklahoma City. In Italy you can buy tax stamps at the tobacco shop. Your case can be a shop=tax_stamps_and_licenses? How do people call it? Is a tax stamp some sort of vehicle tax? I imagine it is either the governmental revenue stamp, or the seal that goes on the car itself. In CA, you need to go to the DMV for the tags (if not by mail) and pay with money. I guess i have seen storefronts that do it too... In Japan, almost any government service - or some kind of fee for a service performed (license renewal, visa application, etc) are paid for by buying stamps, (sometimes for large amounts) and then sticking them on the application for the service in the right place. This separates the people handling the forms from the people handling money. Usually most government offices (city halls, regional capitals) have a convenience store inside that sells food for lunch and these stamps. But The *office* that *administrates* the program is not the store, nor the authorized agents in Oklahoma - it is some office or building in a government facility. Im interested in mapping government and civic agency buildings that run (administer) public programs. If a shop sells vehicle tags, great - lets set up a vending item or something - but they do not (AFAIK) administer the program. If you have a paperwork problem or a grievance, i bet you have to go to the main office. I had to have my car smog checked in California at a smog check shop (~$50), and I have to have my Japanese car inspected and have mandatory service at a local shop every two years ($800USD) - but these people are not where the program is administered - just as a place that sells hot dogs is not a hot dog factory. This is the difference between mapping the amenity and mapping the buildings. I want to map the hot dog factory. You guys are talking about mapping all the places to buy hot dogs. Perhaps we need both ^_^ Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag a Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (US:DMV)
Sent from my iPhone On Jun 10, 2015, at 12:40 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Tue Jun 9 16:26:36 2015 GMT+0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: you can use them universally for payments of government taxes and fees, typically you have to stick them onto forms or other documents to make them valid. Tax_stamp sounds good, I have never heard of a UK equivalent. The name for them is revenue_stamp http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_stamp Tax is a surcharge on another service (sales tax) - this for a fee paid directly for a service - which is revenue for the government agency accepting the money. It is also proof that a fee has been paid (you have the stamp!) so they are sometimes affixed to non-paperwork objects (alcohol bottles,etc) to prove that the proper payment has been made to the proper agency regulating the good before sale - where sales tax would then be applied. Javbw. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Jun 9, 2015, at 9:25 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: P brands (Arco, Amoco, BP, Aral, am/pm, Wild Bean) usually make you go inside anyway and don't let you pay at the pump. A long time ago the self pumps were crap - but i have never seen pufdles of fuel anywhere. Now basically 95% of pumps in California are self, open 24/7, and pay at the pump with a card reader or RFID token. At night there no attendants at many places. Everyone is very comfortable putting gas in the car, and with a vapor recovery system mandatory (on gasoline cars) not even the fumes escape when fueling, let alone liquid. They are pretty damn clean. In Japan, Self is very popular, and similarly very clean - though as a californian, the lack of vapor recovery means filling up the tank causes it to shoot sninky vapor out around the nozzle - so they have plastic gloves and a little towel for you there - rather than making the cars have a vapor recovery system. Maybe in places where self is second rate, people have trouble or cause spills, but i think most Californians could be considered gas station attendants Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access=student and entrance=inter-building: comments?
On Jun 8, 2015, at 8:05 PM, Dominik George n...@naturalnet.de wrote: Hi, I guess I need a solution for the path access too - because access=private also seems an incorrect label - or would both be covered by access=inder-building ? just out of curiosity, what would happen if you *did* use it as an entrance *before* using the main entrance? Well, if it is an accident, the students would point at the other entrance, and you'd immediately start bowing and backing up and repeating how sorry you were, then go in the other door(s). If it were on purpose (aka - I don't need to go through the marked entrance and go through shoe ceremony), and you were a visitor or guest there, it would be as rude as umm... peeing in the kitchen sink at a house you're visiting, while the owner looks on disapprovingly - to some, it would be like pooping in the floor like an animal. As soon as you go in through the main entrance - where the ritual of removing your outside shoes is performed, and the visitor steps up onto the raised floor signifying the inside - then it's business as normal for as long as you are inside - you can go anywhere considered inside - along these inter-building pathways to go to any other building. Most Japanese people have a pair of inside shoes they use for when they go to visit a place (lets say for a school event or an event at a sports hall), and expect slippers to be provided at some places or situations, like the dentist, chiropractor, or stopping by to visit a teacher at school. My feet are big (30cm) - so no slipper fits me, so I walk around in my socks, which is probably worse in reality than my shoes, but the proper and expected thing to do to be respectful. Beverage deliverymen who use the inter-building pathways to access vending machines directly (some schools have a couple hundred meters of it that connects many buildings, so there are vending machines along the path) - they bypass all the ceremony leave their outside shoes next to the (in my example) tile walkway or the door I'm trying to label, and complete the restocking job in socks, as that is their compromise to do the job ASAP, but still show their respect for the inside. It is about the shoes somewhat, - but its brought about because you are properly entering and showing respect for the inside of the location - and that showing respect for the inside is the whole point - the shoes bit is a result of the showing respect goal. I hope that helps a bit. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Grumble about empty comments on this list
If you want to comment about a message someone else posted, don't simply quote them without adding any comments of your own. We already know what they posted. Empty posts can happen by accident, but some participants of this list are in the habit of posting zero-content comments on a daily basis. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
Sent from my iPhone On Jun 7, 2015, at 4:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 07.06.2015 um 01:27 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: Some consider Golf, Fishing, Stamp and Coin collecting as hobbies. yes, others map making, barrel jumping, surfing, drag racing, reading, Surfing is an outdoor sport. Barrel jumping is associated with the rodeo, which also seems to be an outdoor activity. Drag racing is related to motorsports, and definitely takes place on a car pitch - a race track. And reading is done by everyone for a multitude of non-hobby reasons. Shop=sport Sport=surfing seems reasonable. There are thousands of surf shops Cartography as a shop is usually for the selling of maps - not their creation. Try picking a hobby that would have more than one location per 10,000 sq miles. If you can find a barrel-making shop or cartography shop, please tag them a hobby. ... Should book shops become a subtype of hobby shops? Should car parts? Or do people ise them in a non-hobby or work related activity too? cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
You are fond of proposing keys with arbitrary numbers as the value, or part of the value. This would be fine if we were using a relational database, where a mapper could select one of a list of human-language descriptions, which would then get translated to the magic number for storage. However, we do not have such tables, and presenting a mapper with a list of choices such as photo1, photo2, and photo3 is likely to result in corrupted data, due to a mapper picking one at random, or misremembering what means what. As long as the descriptions of the values aren't shown at the time the value is being selected, we need to stick close to natural language, not magic numbers. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 6, 2015 5:31:48 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 5 June 2015 at 10:33, David Fisher djfishe...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:33 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The issue with the 'oneway' key is that the key itself contains 'data' relating to the value. Oneway without a value would imply =yes whereas building without a value (or =yes) would give data independent of the value, IYSWIM building= hospital= The latter describes the building without the need for a value. I note your TIAL v CE above. Why do we need to know what the landuse is in any case ? I do see what you mean. I think the difference is that building = x in some sense defines the presence of the object, as does highway = x on a way. So, if building = x is not set (presumably on a circular way), or if highway = x is not set (presumably on a linear way), then those ways are just collections of nodes, nothing more. But oneway = x defines a *characteristic* of a way. A way must fundamentally *be* something (e.g. a building or a highway), but it may nor may not have any number of characteristics which don't alter that fundamental *being*. The only sensible way to deal with *characteristics* (other than insisting that every way has hundreds of tags) is to assume defaults. The problem with oneway is the key name - it's 3 letters too long: way=1 way=2 - maybe ways=1, ways=2. As for landuse=residential -- I agree that we could probably do without it. But it does add to the readability of the map, especially at low zoom levels, as it enables you to see at a glance where places are and how big they are. Again, the issue is the letters in the tag. landuse=place or landuse=settlement - landuse=town rather than landuse=residential, place=town - combine the two. Personally I'm an advocate of covering the majority of the map (not necessarily 100%) with some form of landuse area, e.g. residential, industrial, grass/meadow/parkland, farmland, etc. -- though I appreciate that not everyone shares that view. Anyone that doesn't share that view should be nowhere near OSM ! Sounds like a military cover-up to me ;) I do feel the default map not covered should be black though - to make the unmapped areas stand out :) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to the country's ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
On Jun 6, 2015, at 10:34 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: (table gaming, adventures, Cosplay, ...) in hobby, but in toys. I agree for subtags. All of those are hobbies. They have dedicated stores for each. They are filled with adults, spending unglodly amounts of money. DnD books and figure painting, and complicated board games sold to adults are not for kids. Cosplay stores are for adult cosplay hobbyists - 50 bucks for a small accessory - 3 or 400 bucks for an (adult sized) outfit is not a kids hobby. Ive sold a few of those accessories. Yes, at the game store, there are a few kids trading pokemon cards. But it is not the main focus of the store. Toys are for kids. Collectables are for adults (with rare exceptions, like legos). Saying a person who paints and poses resin models is playing with dolls is equally wrong. I have spent 3 times more on anime goods back when I was an otaku than Camera lenses - and i have $10k in gear now. None of the anime stuff was catering to kids - neither the store nor subject matter. Hobbies are hobbies. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
I'm Sent from my iPhone On Jun 7, 2015, at 8:27 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Some consider Golf, Fishing, Stamp and Coin collecting as hobbies. Any activity that you don't do for a job can be considered a hobby. But some activities fall into broader groups, usually based on what the activity itself is. Sometimes those shops catering to a professional serve both the pro worker and the pro hobbyist (or are a common part of life) - so we dont make a hobby distinction - Such as shop=camera. Used by everyday people, hobbyists, and professionals for their job. Also - Usually activities that are athletic, require a pitch, or performed in the wilderness usually fall under sports - sporting goods stores. Hiking/trekking, fishing, and other outdoor activites fall under this. Maybe outdoor falls under sports, as many many stores are a mix of sports and outdoor gear. Activities that are usually never a profession, and require construction or take place at a desk or workbench usually end up being called hobbies - hence hobby shops. There are millions of RC car hobbyists or model makers, but a fraction of a fraction of a percent would make money through racing or making models. A coin collecting shop would be Shop=hobby Hobby=coin (or the fancier numismatic) ...If we start pitting stuff into subcategories. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
Sent from my iPhone On Jun 7, 2015, at 9:26 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: presenting a mapper with a list of choices such as photo1, photo2, and photo3 is likely to result in corrupted data, due to a mapper picking one at random, Remember the epic discussion on track type? Even with pictures, the discussion went on and on Next we'll be grading train stations on platform size and presence of a shoeshiner... Jacbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
What if the shop sells both photo gear and frames? -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 4, 2015 10:11:26 PM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Shop=photo changed to remove frames and framing from it. Reason.. there is a documented shop=frame so if the shop=photo does frames then it should be tagged shop=photo; frame I have included that information on the wiki page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dphoto shop=hobby No documentation present so added * text to suggest a more detailed tag be used. * link to the wiki shop= hobby area. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dhobby I think the 'status' here should be 'depreciated' ? shop=model No documentation so added text + photo to its wiki page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmodel added link on the shop= wiki page. -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
There is an obvious limit to the number of types of icons that can be rendered on any one map before it becomes incomprehensible. However, more than one renderer can use the same data, depending on the intended purpose. There are also applications that let you inquire for every location tagged as X within a geographical area. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 5, 2015 4:43:51 AM Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: shop=tea; coffee The 'problem' is there is no wiki page explaining how to combine values. And no explanation as to the overall concept of OSM tagging scheme. The real problem is it isn't suported by the renderer and some other apps, that's why people don't advocate for it too much. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
Agreed. If you look at all of what I said, I was arguing that concerns about how many types of things could be rendered should not prevent detailed tagging. It is always possible to go from a complex data set to a simplified rendering; going from a simple data set to a complex rendering is frequently not possible. On 06/05/2015 01:31 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 5:40 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com mailto:j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: There is an obvious limit to the number of types of icons that can be rendered on any one map before it becomes incomprehensible. Rendering can choose to use the same symbol for two tags. One tag however can't become two symbols. While the rendering has a huge impact on tagging, OSM is foremost a data set: one that can be rendered various ways. It's important to get good expressive data. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
Yea - in America hobby shops like the wikipedia entry exist - they are model/rc/train/craft stores - they have a mix of all the types - they are not a specific specialty store, which exist too. Generic shop: http://goo.gl/maps/cy4I2 hobby people Just model trains: http://goo.gl/maps/p9D3n reeds train shop. and table gaming stores selling DnD supplies (dice, figures) and warhammer and similar figure pacs, along with adult oriented card games (Magic) and the adult oriented board games (settlers of kattan, etc) http://goo.gl/maps/NHT3m game empire In Japan, there are those too - but with the prevalence of plastic models - some shops cater only to plastic model kits http://goo.gl/maps/325oN toy box Okazaki Shop=hobby Shop=model trains Shop=table_gaming Shop=scale_models The better choice (I think) is to create a subkey for hobby and define out the different shops that way. hobby:model_trains=yes hobby:rc_cars=yes hobby:rc_planes=yes hobby:rc_drones=yes hobby:scale_model_kits=yes hobby:table_games=yes hobby:card_games=yes hobby:game_figures=yes That way the shop types can be mixed and matched - and still under the umbrella of hobby. And I'm sure there are a multitude of others. Plus there are a lot of these things in more dedicated crafting stores (for painting, scrapbooking, etc) and toy stores as well. Javbw On Jun 5, 2015, at 9:09 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/06/2015 9:14 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 05.06.2015 um 11:25 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: Consider these to be forthcoming drafts ... better than what was there. If the past mappers find and disagree .. good. I'll try to contact them latter .. and some of the other 'model' values too (model_train model_railway etc) though there are fewer of them again. This way they will have something to look at and consider. there are different kind of model shops, your definition is for one kind, there are also other ones that don't deal with rc models, train or car models, eg this one here: 'My' definition is broad, like a shop=supermarket .. they don't all have the same things. The one I have to tag is https://hobbyco.com.au Sells rc models, train, car, aeroplane, boat, ship ... kits or ready made, you name it they do it... Depends on how much detail 'we' want ... If shop=photo includes frames, cameras .. why not shop=model to include all models? :-\ http://www.modulor.de https://hobbyco.com.au/product-taxonomy/balsa-metal-polystyrene Same shop as above... There are also workshops specialized in architectural models. That to me is a craft .. like a professional photographer. I would generally dispute the tag shop=model because of its ambiguity and would prefer something like those you cited above (model_railway, model_aviation etc) In which case https://hobbyco.com.au would have 11+ tags? One each for car, boat, ship, railway, aeroplane ... I suppose military vehicles and motorcycles and trucks and farm machinery will be combined with car... or do you want those separated too? then one for each type of rc ... if rc stands for remote control .. if it stands for radio control then 'we'll' have to add wire control, infra-red control ... Way too many variations? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
Also, there are a lot of so-called hobby shops that carry supplies for decorative crafts such as beading, embroidery, and jewelry making. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 5, 2015 5:33:22 PM John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Yea - in America hobby shops like the wikipedia entry exist - they are model/rc/train/craft stores - they have a mix of all the types - they are not a specific specialty store, which exist too. Generic shop: http://goo.gl/maps/cy4I2 hobby people Just model trains: http://goo.gl/maps/p9D3n reeds train shop. and table gaming stores selling DnD supplies (dice, figures) and warhammer and similar figure pacs, along with adult oriented card games (Magic) and the adult oriented board games (settlers of kattan, etc) http://goo.gl/maps/NHT3m game empire In Japan, there are those too - but with the prevalence of plastic models - some shops cater only to plastic model kits http://goo.gl/maps/325oN toy box Okazaki Shop=hobby Shop=model trains Shop=table_gaming Shop=scale_models The better choice (I think) is to create a subkey for hobby and define out the different shops that way. hobby:model_trains=yes hobby:rc_cars=yes hobby:rc_planes=yes hobby:rc_drones=yes hobby:scale_model_kits=yes hobby:table_games=yes hobby:card_games=yes hobby:game_figures=yes That way the shop types can be mixed and matched - and still under the umbrella of hobby. And I'm sure there are a multitude of others. Plus there are a lot of these things in more dedicated crafting stores (for painting, scrapbooking, etc) and toy stores as well. Javbw On Jun 5, 2015, at 9:09 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/06/2015 9:14 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 05.06.2015 um 11:25 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: Consider these to be forthcoming drafts ... better than what was there. If the past mappers find and disagree .. good. I'll try to contact them latter .. and some of the other 'model' values too (model_train model_railway etc) though there are fewer of them again. This way they will have something to look at and consider. there are different kind of model shops, your definition is for one kind, there are also other ones that don't deal with rc models, train or car models, eg this one here: 'My' definition is broad, like a shop=supermarket .. they don't all have the same things. The one I have to tag is https://hobbyco.com.au Sells rc models, train, car, aeroplane, boat, ship ... kits or ready made, you name it they do it... Depends on how much detail 'we' want ... If shop=photo includes frames, cameras .. why not shop=model to include all models? :-\ http://www.modulor.de https://hobbyco.com.au/product-taxonomy/balsa-metal-polystyrene Same shop as above... There are also workshops specialized in architectural models. That to me is a craft .. like a professional photographer. I would generally dispute the tag shop=model because of its ambiguity and would prefer something like those you cited above (model_railway, model_aviation etc) In which case https://hobbyco.com.au would have 11+ tags? One each for car, boat, ship, railway, aeroplane ... I suppose military vehicles and motorcycles and trucks and farm machinery will be combined with car... or do you want those separated too? then one for each type of rc ... if rc stands for remote control .. if it stands for radio control then 'we'll' have to add wire control, infra-red control ... Way too many variations? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Changes + additions: shop= photo, hobby, model
On Jun 5, 2015, at 12:10 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: then it should be tagged shop=photo; frame Is the semicolon okay to use in shop=* ? Or will that start another Holy War? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2015, at 11:20 PM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: I have no objection to users tagging in their local language. I also have no objection to those users also using tags in a language that has been agreed upon for use in an international context, or to others subsequently adding tags for other languages. Do you feel that maps for any given area should only be available to those fluent in the local language or languages? -- Two separate things - A) the Tags themselves being english is Okay. If someone forks the data for Japan and makes a Japanese (or [insert language here]) tagged map, whatever, but the project is in english. Japanese taggers are already tagging a few things in Japanese anyway (religion tag is where i noticed it first) - but for the most part, iD abstracts away the english tags for beginner mappers anyway (AFAIK). But we need the ability to define regional customs with OSM tags to conform with regional requirements beyond color choices. For example, Not having intersections with signals labeled with a single symbol means the OSM/carto is useless as a city map for visual navigation. Along with the difficulty of getting approved culturally or regionally unique shop definitions. This is true of all places - my discussion of Japan (i assume) as a proxy for all regions. B) The second issue that comes up is in Asia, where the native script is non-roman, non-phonetic characters. In Japan, every single road sign - hundreds of thousands - is in Japanese and English. That sign 40km up in the mountains, where no tourist would drive on a rural tertiary road - English is there. Every single exit sign on the motorway system is in Japanese and English. Train stations are signed are in Japanese Kanji, the phonetic alphabet Hiragana, and English - because even Japanese tourists may not know how to read name Kanji of unfamiliar places. Because of the prevalence of English on signs, English Speaking Mappers would tag things with name=日本語 (English) + name:ja=日本語 + name:en=English. Having the english in parens was deemed to be a bad thing, but because it is still common on the map, new mappers add it back on to name tags (as i did when i first started). Mappers do this because: - OSM's font sizes and strokes are optimized for Roman scripts (and ones of similar characters) the intricate Kanji are difficult to read, but the English in parens is very easy to read. - OSM doesn't support multi-language labels. Someone commented that Japanese people wouldn't appreciate English on the map, but in real life, Japan is slathered in English because of the total incomprehensibility of Kanji for any visitor (and almost all place names are very difficult kanji) , along with English being Japan's national hobby. This holds true in other places, such as Korea, China, and other Asian countries, though i am unsure of the prevalence of bilingual signs beyond anecdotes. Javbw John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 3, 2015 7:18:57 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 4 June 2015 at 00:59, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Its been an uphill battle to get even the most basic (read: required) Japanese mapping conventions accepted. Traffic light rendering is still a big stinky pile of garbage. Kanji rendering is still really bad compared to Roman characters - both are being worked on by people better than me, but two down-voted proposals to get traffic light labeling/rendering fixed for SE asia shows where the priorities are for OSM/-carto. Javbw I see no reason why different 'cultures' cannot completely ignore 'standard' carto and tags and just do their own thing. If I was looking on Japanese OSM for a restaurant, I'd expect to not find a single one. If I was looking for レストラン then I'd expect to find many. -- Mike. @millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via the area's premier website - currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets TCs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES
There was some 25 year old Japan government GIS data they imported for the woods outlines that looks like it has about a 20-30m accuracy, and has some wild offsets compared to the road data. The biggest problem is that i live on the edge of the wilderness, and the outline is a giant relation or something - and i end up breaking it sometimes. Some mappers in some prefectures deleted them all, deeming there were no woods - so the region looks really odd compared to the rest of Japan. Thanks for the feedback guys. Javbw. On Jun 4, 2015, at 10:27 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 04.06.2015 um 13:58 schrieb moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: CORINE landuse in Europe is a bit like TIGER highways in USA : great as an initial map-filler, but requires a *lot* of fixing and tweaking plus it is generalized for a medium zoom scale and created automatically by feature detection, so it is not like the geometry human mappers would typically draw. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
I have no objection to users tagging in their local language. I also have no objection to those users also using tags in a language that has been agreed upon for use in an international context, or to others subsequently adding tags for other languages. Do you feel that maps for any given area should only be available to those fluent in the local language or languages? -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 3, 2015 7:18:57 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 4 June 2015 at 00:59, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Its been an uphill battle to get even the most basic (read: required) Japanese mapping conventions accepted. Traffic light rendering is still a big stinky pile of garbage. Kanji rendering is still really bad compared to Roman characters - both are being worked on by people better than me, but two down-voted proposals to get traffic light labeling/rendering fixed for SE asia shows where the priorities are for OSM/-carto. Javbw I see no reason why different 'cultures' cannot completely ignore 'standard' carto and tags and just do their own thing. If I was looking on Japanese OSM for a restaurant, I'd expect to not find a single one. If I was looking for レストラン then I'd expect to find many. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
OSM needs to provide for objects that fall under more than one category, whether it is done by allowing multiple tags with the same key, using semicolon-delimited values, or some other means. One often-quoted expression is that OSM needs to show the ground truth, and it is frequently the ground truth that objects fit into more than one category. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 3, 2015 7:25:15 PM Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: The thing is these services are also often available in supermarkets, copyshops etc. and you don't want to put shop=photo on those. And if a shop has both cameras and prints then you can use shop=photo if the camera selection isn't that big like just some pointshoot cameras or you can use shop=camera with some photo_prints=yes tag. 2 notes or shop=photo;camera is just not that great. On 6/4/15 01:39 , Warin wrote: On 4/06/2015 3:37 AM, Andreas Goss wrote: Created/Changed the Wiki page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcamera I think what we need might be a tag that in general indicates where you can get prints I think that is the present shop=photo ... but its wili description is not clear. Some shops .. do both; sell prints and sell cameras. I think there are shops that only do prints, and yet others that only sell cameras So .. is there a case for individual shop values? These could be combined where needed .. shop=photo; camera or separate nodes. --- There is a case for the wiki of shop=photo to be clearly defined! == According to tag info there are over 800 values for shop= ... some of them are not English, some as single and plural variations. The vast majority have no documentation. I think I'll document shop=model .. there are various finer values model_railway, model_train, model_railways being 3. But shop=camera .. and shop=photo ... ummm need your thoughts. Should there be a shop=camera ... if so should it include associated things like flash, tripods, filters etc If not .. should cameras go into shop=photo? In any case .. what should shop=photo be about? film development? photo printing framing ... (there are specialist framing shops .. they do paintings too) Once people have express their ideas I'll try to come to combine them into the best tag/s and put that forward as a proposal for comment. But at the moment I've no clear idea ... mainly due to the poor shop=photo wiki. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES
Im mapping out in Japan, and there are wood polygons (and relations) everywhere. I often add detail on exactly where the borders are (farms, roads, etc) - Is there anything wrong with correctly mapping the borders of the blobs of woods (and doubling the number of nodes) if its correct? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 10:46 PM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 11:50 AM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: How many people are going to understand that I need a “wooden home goods” shop tag? There is an old traditional store that sells all the things for your house - from yard tools, to buckets, to bathtubs - made out of wood by an expert craftsman. They are not ornamental goods - you use them. It is a Very Japanese store, Are you really going to use OSM for looking up those specialty stores and see whether they sell item X ? I rather search the internet. After I read the shop's website and verified they sell X, I take their address and name and use those in e.g. OsmAnd to get me to the place. Where would you end up otherwise ? Tag all breads and the days they are available in a bakery ? All softdrinks and their brands available in a supermarket ? Of course for more tourist related features (cafes, pubs, hotels, etc, ) it's nice that I can find them directly via OsmAnd POIs without research on the internet. So I wonder whether it is not enough to have some rough classification for the shops you are describing with links to their websites so one can do a full text search there to see whether the shop fulfils one needs. Thanks for proving my point. This is a class of store - a previously very common type of store in Japan for the past couple hundred years - one that has disappeared with the industrial revolution - but can still be found. I don't have to explain why an ice cream shop definition is needed, nor mount a defense for having a tag for a tobacco shop (whatever the correct OSM tags are) because you are familiar with this class of store. Why is my wooden home goods store any less deserving of its tag than an ice cream shop? At one point in time, there were more of these japanese shops than all ice cream shops in the world. Its because there is not one in Los Angeles or London. I know of 3 of them that existed just on my 7km route to work - two have been bulldozed recently, one is still open. but there are still many many of them throughout Japan still selling goods. And there will never be one made outside of Japan (or least Asia) What about a fixtures store? Toto (the maker of those famous Japanese toilets) has a huge number of chain stores that sell just bathroom and kitchen fixtures. They don't sell anything other than toilets, tubs, and sinks there. Its not a home store, nor a DIY store, nor a plumbing store (no pipes or whatnot) - they just sell fixtures and their installation. Can i create a home store category and have a fixtures subcategory? What happens when I have a wooden goods store (sells all those goods, including giant wooden bathtubs) and Also is a toto fixtures dealer? I want to tag them as a wooden goods shop and a fixtures shop. Its not very common of a shop - ive only seen one (like Pogs Ammo), so how do i tag a store which is a combination of both? That is a fundamental problem with shop tagging in OSM that was easily solved by google by letting you put as many tags/ categories on a shop as the mapper deems it belongs to. ### How each culture slices up who-sells-what and who-does-what is similar thanks to westernized shops and modern industrial production and marketing - but there are still plenty of unique styles of shops that may be plentiful and deserving of their own tag is some regions - and having to justify their creation and inclusion to a group wholly unfamiliar with their existence means it is an uphill battle for localized tagging - which means OSM is just a tourist map for westerners - because uniformity in the data is more important than if the locals find the map or data useful... No one expects the map to cater to them anyways since their mapping conventions, categories, and iconography (rendering, data sorting, and labeling) are of secondary importance to the ability of people who don't live there to be able to understand it. I know this isn't a malicious thing - everyone wants to make a better map - but being an english centric project automatically creates these issues. Language support =/= cultural support Its been an uphill battle to get even the most basic (read: required) Japanese mapping conventions accepted. Traffic light rendering is still a big stinky pile of garbage. Kanji rendering is still really bad compared to Roman characters - both are being worked on by people better than me, but two down-voted proposals to get traffic light labeling/rendering fixed for SE asia shows where the priorities are for OSM/-carto. Javbw regards m ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
Some businesses that were formerly in the film-developing trade have shifted over into producing prints from digital photos. The professional-grade color printers produce noticeably better results than consumer-grade printers do. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 2, 2015 11:33:08 PM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: the wiki for shop=photo A shop dealing with photos or video in any way. humm .. does not necessarily sell cameras ... ? and 'develop photos'? errr .. that is now a specialist activity given the reduction in film cameras. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dphoto Where as a camera shop does sell cameras... but may not 'deal with photos' So someone has a redirect up on shop=camera... and the redirect says 'everything with photos'? Would it not be better to call them what is most common? I think there are now more camera shops than Photo shops .. take a look in a phone book? :-D Mine has a redirect to Photographic Equipment !! So what do I know? Maybe the wiki page for shop=photo needs to actually include cameras? Photographic Equipment? On 3/06/2015 1:18 PM, Andre Engels wrote: I would say that fits very well with shop=photo, which can be found further down the page under art, music, hobbies, and to which the link that you created now redirects (because someone in 2011 already thought shop=camera would better be shop=photo) On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I have mapped. There are others that I can tag (when I get to them). They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters etc etc. Any idea for a better tag? .. just fishing for ideas at this stage! I've placed it in the wiki shop 'electronics' section .. best fit. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:shop#Electronics ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?
Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2015, at 9:18 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 4 June 2015 at 00:59, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Its been an uphill battle to get even the most basic (read: required) Japanese mapping conventions accepted. Traffic light rendering is still a big stinky pile of garbage. Kanji rendering is still really bad compared to Roman characters - both are being worked on by people better than me, but two down-voted proposals to get traffic light labeling/rendering fixed for SE asia shows where the priorities are for OSM/-carto. Javbw I see no reason why different 'cultures' cannot completely ignore 'standard' carto and tags and just do their own thing. If I was looking on Japanese OSM for a restaurant, I'd expect to not find a single one. If I was looking for レストラン then I'd expect to find many. Which are all tagged as x=restaurant, not x=レストラン Example: We all agree on mcdonalds being fast food, right? Yep, as do Japanese people. But so is fried octopus balls (takoyaki). The mall near my work has a mcdonalds and a takoyaki stand. Searching for たこやき should bring it up. No problem. The most popular fast food in Japan? Ramen. My friend owns japanese pubs (an izakaya) and ramen shops - people love quick ramen. McDonalds is doing badly here now. Fast food Iconography? Hamburger. Don't confuse searching for an object with how they are sorted/labeled/and represented - nor forget about the inflexibility in OSM/-carto to get them represented differently. (Take-out bag?) Or support regional renderings (buddhist shrines do not use the buddhist wheel in Japan, but thats what they get) Javbw. -- Mike. @millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via the area's premier website - currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets TCs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)
The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is one-way or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 2, 2015 7:06:26 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not show oneway at all. In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not appear at all. The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and the '=yes' is superfluous. OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'. Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what categor(ies) an object fits in A fountain is a fountain. It does not matter if it is - an amenity - man made - natural water (???!!) etc. Such categorization is semi-ambiguous; people think differently and are happy to categorize differently - and more - argue over categories. OSM is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but sadly lacking a great leader. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Big amenity=fountain
+1 to Martin Really super large fountains (like the one in front of the Bellagiao(?) in LasVegas is giant, and mapping the nozzles is possible - but a nozzle is not an amenity. But the fountain itself is a fountain (and landmark), which places it in amenity. Perhaps a fountain sub-key Fountain=* For the nozzles, lights, water fill, water return, shut-off/control box, and filter set is a good idea (even if most of those are unrendered), for fountain people to map the entire system. Javbw On May 31, 2015, at 7:31 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 31.05.2015 um 11:44 schrieb AYTOUN RALPH ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com: I am a bit puzzled by the use of amenity here. According to wiki it is Covering an assortment of community facilities... that are of obvious use to locals and/or tourists such as toilets, banks, schools. I agree with regard to nozzle while for fountains amenity is OK and is very established I find the use of amenity for things like a bar or biergarten or sauna to be outside this description. but they are how the current scheme defines it, restaurants etc all are in amenity I also do not understand the use of amenity for a tourist or ornamental feature such as a fountain? a fountain is not a tourist feature in my eyes, they are much older than tourism in general. they are part of the urban furniture and serve for decoration, accentuation but sometimes also practical purposes like providing drinking water, cooling, etc Surely it is just a place-of-interest and would be under tourism=fountain for those fountains that are of interest to the visitor (and would therefore not be confused with a drinking fountain which would be an amenity=drinking_water) and man_made=fountain for others of less note (as I am unaware of a general place_of_interest tag). -1, I would not suggest to use different tags based on such a weak criterion like interest to the visitor I also hardly can find any particular relation of visitors and fountains, besides that they look at them (just as they visit churches, but we are not tagging tourism=church). I'd keep amenity=fountain and render just a name (zoomlevel area size dependent ) with no icon, and would use man_made=nozzle or maybe waterway=nozzle for the single nozzle (not rendered in default style or rendered just with a small dot) cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Big amenity=fountain
Sent from my iPhone On Jun 1, 2015, at 7:52 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps a fountain sub-key Fountain=* For the nozzles, lights, water fill, water return, shut-off/control box, and filter set is a good idea (even if most of those are unrendered), for fountain people to map the entire system. Javbw Some (if not all) could be used by other things .. swimming pools, spars Rather than isolate them to fountains .. perhaps man_made=light waterway=return_outlet waterway=filter ? Very true, especially in an industrial setting. BTW, I was thinking of those special underwater lights that are used for making the water other colors. Is waterway a good key for the other things? I mean, these are more sub-features of a larger thing. What about waterworks=* ? But as i don't use waterway for much beyond streams and drains, i don't have much experience in tagging more complicated stuff. Isn't there a waterway group (that chimed in on waste disposal) that would have a more informed opinion? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works
On May 31, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: hat's the kind of tags we can use to describe this situation, if it doesn't help, maybe you have to be even more specific with the value? Im saying that unless the building is of particular significance, interest, and/or obviousness, adding the informationon what the building's architectural purpose used to be is not helpful. Ive seen some really good examples - a museum that ised to be a huge church - thats good. - it is a significant building - a huge old church - a well known and visual landmark - it is an interesting building - now a big museum. People visit it every day. - it is obvious - a glance wall say that was an old church My 7-11 convenience store turned Ramen shop or futon shop example(s) - not important - its one of tens of thousands of abandoned and repurposed shops in Central Japan - not interesting - the current shop is not important nor of public interest more than any other shop. - obvious - it is obviously an old 7-11 My little town in Japan used to be famous for silk production in Japan. Synthetic fibers destroyed demand, and all the shops and factories closed. One factory was turned into a weaving museum, allowing people to see ancient looms and the development of textile machines. It is in a historic sawtooth industrial building. I can see that being the case for building=industrial. There has to be some kind of suggestion on where the threshold is to document the architecture *purpose* I believe the museums are above that threshold, and the ramen shop is below it. If you know it it is an old Victorian home, then tag it. But famous architectural style and generic architectural purpose is very different. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
Sent from my iPhone On May 29, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: W dniu 29.05.2015 3:54, John Willis napisał(a): Currently, building=industrial +landuse=industrial has usurped man_made=works completely. I think of building=industrial like a building=church - it's just a form, we need some way to describe the function, just like we do with amenity=place_of_worship. We may use man_made=works to indicate that it's not a loft (apartment) or the office for example, like in some old industrial buildings. I always imagined we tag as it exists - it would be building=apartments then. I omagine there is a lot of renovation to turn a industrial warehouse into apartments. It certainly wouldn't sit on landuse=industrial except in rare on-site dormitory style situations. The basic pair of landuse+building Landuse=industrial+building=industrial Would change to Landuse=residential+building=apartments. I know there is a way to tag what the building as to what it was initially used for - but i don't think that is the proper way (afaik). Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dock=tidal
That is just one of the common meanings of dock. Another common meaning is as a synonym for pier, an above-water structure used to give access to a ship. On May 29, 2015 3:41:23 AM Malcolm Herring malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com wrote: On 29/05/2015 08:41, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Why is this a property of the dock, rather than a property of the water body. A dock is a body of water. It may or may not be separated from a connecting river or sea by a lock or single gate. What's wrong with floating vs. fixed? What do you mean? Is this a general question or a tagging suggestion? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
On May 29, 2015, at 7:35 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: There are no man made trees in the forest, they all grow naturally. Man can plant a natural tree - or it could self-seed. In osm there is a distinction between cultivated and constructed. We already do this will all other cultivated ground - and including forests into man_made does not follow existing tags that make more sense. A farm field and a planted cedar forest are both land cleared, altered, and prepared to grow a crop, tended to throughout their growth cycle, and then the crop is harvested and eventually reseeded (usually), but neither are man-made structures like a dam or a bridge - otherwise man_made would be the most prevalent tag on the map - as we have altered most of the flat arable land on Earth. Man_made seems to be the catch-all for non-amenity non-building structures that are commonly found where people are. Managed Forests, farmland, Gardens, parks, and other prepared places are cultivations for different purposes - food, lumber, flowers, leisure - but are not a building nor structure. You can say the land is altered for a purpose (Landuse), but a group of plants is not a non-building structure. Putting forests in man_made makes it the odd man out. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Comms towers
Pole without a pole = pole? I am confused. What sort of structure are you describing? On May 29, 2015 5:48:33 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 05:47, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: according to this wiki page there is a difference between man_made=communications_tower and man_made=tower tower:type=communications and then there is also man_made=mast tower:type=communications pretty easy to understand :-) Mast - pole with guy-wires. Tower - free-standing with wider base usually with several aerials/dishes Mast without guy-wires = pole. Pole with only one guy-wire = pole. Pole without a pole = pole. Glad we got that sorted. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
Zip codes, in the USA, are the same way. They are intended for the post office's routing, and don't necessarily correspond to administrative divisions of the land. A given plot of land may be in one administrative division for tax purposes, yet be lumped into a neighboring division for mail-delivery purposes. On May 29, 2015 7:34:20 AM Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Fri, 2015-05-29 at 12:57 +0100, pmailkeey . wrote: For some strange reason, RM chose settlements rather than counties to determine postcodes. They chose where the sorting offices were and from that where the lines of communication went, that is why Market Bosworth (a long way inside Leicestershire) has a Nuneaton, Warwickshire postcode/postal address and why Barmouth on the Welsh coast has a Shrewsbury postcode. Postcodes are a good way to deliver mail, they are pretty rubbish for anything else. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works (was: Re: Removal of amenity from OSM tagging)
Sent from my iPhone On May 29, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: Although not the type of amenity estate agents usually describe. [pure speculation on my part] that is because the amenity tag originally was for the amenities of a town. Over time, as tagging became more and more detail focused, it became about location level amenities (parking) and now even smaller. We describe newer city level things in different ways now, afaik. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=works
On May 30, 2015, at 12:41 AM, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: But if not, we have no system, just historical cases and a lot of exceptions. I think it's time to try to make some rules instead. I though there was some tag prefix like disused: or abandoned: that could be used with the building=industrial to note what its original purpose was for. Maybe you are just supposed to use building=church and shop=poodles for a church that was converted into a poodle shop - but i imagine that would be only if it was really really obvious that it was a church, not just by its shape, but by the presence of original fixtures and ornamental architecture - not just that it has a steeple on one side. There has to be some threshold - there are Hundreds and hundreds of 7-11s that closed in Japan that are now repurposed - but you know exactly that it was a 7-11 based on architecture alone - but i don't feel tagging building=convenience_store + shop=poodles on it helps anyone. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
On May 29, 2015, at 11:02 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: And that ties in nicely with my thoughts of removing the words and generating tags and values by symbols ! Mapping by emoji! Just put a hot dog symbol in the hot-dog stand! ^_^ For getting data into the database from novice mappers - that might not be a bad idea - however the text description that would invariably be needed to explain the icons would lead to the same thing. And as long as there are very rigid definitions in the tags - then the icons won't fit the ground truth except in the countries of the people who created the tags. Which is true currently - as I find examples that are completely untaggable in the current system because of the insistence on a single or primary tag. Case in point: Video rental shops in Japan also rent music CDs and video games (and sometimes books/manga too). They also are a bookstore. And stationary and collectables shop. This media, goods, and rental shop (as they say on the outside) is a very common store type - there are many *chains* that offer this combination, equating to several thousand stores - but currently there is absolutely no tagging value to convey this properly. It is not primarily a rental shop with a few magazines, nor a stationary shop with a few books or DVDs. It is its own beast. Tsutaya, Geo, FamilyBook, and others are all big chains that do this. It is simply not a combination that is common in other parts of the world (AFAIK). And without some more hierarchy to handle new and multiple values, it will be impossible to tag, even with emoji. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
On May 28, 2015, at 4:52 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: while man_made covers technical structures and facilities (like factories, chimneys, flagpoles, lighthouses, silos, ...). If there is one big change I would like to make it would be to greatly reduce the scope of man_made=works. Most factories are buildings, So building=industrial (and so on for the office, etc) And landuse=industrial for the area the factory sits on. For the giant gas refineries which are a giant tangle of pipes and tubes and everything taking up huge amount of space without a specific building, man_made=works seems appropriate. Currently, building=industrial +landuse=industrial has usurped man_made=works completely. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] To mark as covered, or to not mark as covered?
One case where covered would be appropriate would be a highway or railway in the mountains, where a slanted roof is above the way to protect against falling rocks and/or avalanches. I remember encountering such in the Swiss Alps. On May 28, 2015 6:46:21 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: I've seen 'covered' being used (once!) and my opinion is this: First example under railway bridge, now car park - use tunnel, not 'covered'. Anywhere within buildings, use tunnel=building_passage. The only real significant place 'covered' would seem most appropriate would be where a highway is covered where the cover is purely for the benefit of the highway - e.g. West Cornwall covered bridge. So basically, the cover follows the line of the highway and for no other reason than to cover it. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
On May 28, 2015, at 6:22 PM, AYTOUN RALPH ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com wrote: And with this argument for a hierarchical approach we are back to the start point of umbrella tags that cover all possibilities which is landuse=educational as a polygon encompassing the whole area and the whole range of educational facilities. using landuse=school excludes universities, colleges, etc and you would then need other tags landuse=university and landuse=college, which then makes the landuse tagging specific instead of general. If we look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:landuse the first sentence is correct Mainly used for describe the primary use of land by humans. so the hierarchical approach should then be something like landuse=agriculture... agriculture would then be sub categorised with farmland (worked land for crops), orchard (trees planted for their fruits), vineyard, pasture, etc. landuse=residential (could be divided into urban and rural which have totally different infrastructures) landuse=commercial landuse=industrial landuse=educational landuse=civic landuse=transport instead of the myriad of specifics that we now have like landuse=peat_cutting and landuse=salt_pondthese are all sub categories of the primary use of the land. I know this has diverted from the main topic here but I wanted to point out the overall usage to highlight how my suggestion fits into the overall picture. +1 There are advantages to certain separations (to make it easier on renders), but there are so many very specific land land uses, while whole categories don't have a single tag. A hierarchical system has room to accept new tags while keeping everyone on the same level of importance. The downside is when one group or culture sees a whole category in a different way - a primary road in Japan has a completely different meaning than the rest of OSM, for example. But I prefer the hierarchical system - a flat tag system has good points, but it's so hard to document and learn, and probably to keep renderer a up to date - as a minor change requires a whole new tag, instead of a new sub-tag value. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] housenumber on node and area
Also, large industrial facilities may have all mail delivered to a central office, yet have separate street addresses for individual buildings for delivering goods. On May 28, 2015 9:21:44 AM Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: In the UK we have postal addresses which are for Royal Mail's convenience, not yours. Often your (correct) postal address suggests you are in a different town, and sometimes even a different country. What would you call the geographic address for NP16 7JU? The postal address is Chepstow. It's not even in Wales. On 27 May 2015 at 08:07, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Martin et al., It might help to have some kind of paradigm here as I think our frames of reference may be divergent. If we don't have consensus about the question we will never agree about the answer except by coincidence, and that would be the worst situation of all. What are the use cases for an address? Is it as a routing target? A label or annotation for a building? or a property in a looser sense? Is it for the benefit of the postman? Or what? //colin In the UK we have postal addresses and geographic addresses. In the main they're the same but where there isn't a postal address, there's only the geographic address. There are cases where the postal address and geographic address are different - such as PO Box numbers where a firm at one address has their post delivered to another address. Address: geographic/routing (A description for finding a 'place' - a (geographic) location; the next 8 bits, a web page etc. Address: postal post delivery. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
Did you forget to add any comments? On May 26, 2015 6:58:49 AM wp4...@gmail.com wrote: ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Water featuers
On May 25, 2015, at 6:53 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 24.05.2015 um 14:36 schrieb John Willis jo...@mac.com: I always thought a cascade is a series of waterfalls connected together. I thought it was a word for a single waterfall as well... The water careened off the cliff. The car careened off the cliff The error cascaded through the computers The water cascaded off the rocks, People who would refer to a singular waterfall as a cascade are incorrect. People who refer to the action of the water (it cascaded down the cliff) are not so far off, but it would not be referred to as a cascade. But people muddy the meaning with incorrect usage. The example pic I linked to is different than all the waterfalls I have seen. Also - saying a waterfall is a reflecting pool is very disingenuous - it's not that it reflects - it's *what* it reflects - usually some kind of scenery or famous architecture. in particular, a waterfall is not a pool. Reflection of light is what it makes look interesting (glitter) And they make rainbows and icicles too. J ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
The level key is intended for OSM internal use, to tell routing and rendering software what connects to what. For indoor mapping, it would make sense to also have a way to name floors, which needs to allow for both numeric and non-numeric floor names. I have been in buildings that have more than one named floor. For example, one parking garage that I sometimes use has levels named Basement, Ground (ground level on one side of the building), 1 (ground level on the opposite side of the building), 2, 3, 4, and 5. On May 24, 2015 10:18:56 PM Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: It's highly likely that the street level floor would be named 'Ground' - so if software needs to know this, that would be a good starting point. It could also be worked out by which highway meets the street. That's funny. In your previous example no floor is named 'Ground'. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
The ele tag is for indicating the elevation of an object above sea level. Not many people will know the elevation of each of a building's floors above sea level. On May 25, 2015 8:30:26 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 25 May 2015 at 14:08, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/05/2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: The floor level *order* will be clear from the ele(vation) tag, won't it. No. Since when has the ele=* tag been used for floors in a building? What other tag do you propose to indicate vertical position then ? Why would we need another tag when ele fits this purpose? -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wiki: Key:level: proposed rewrite
Yes, I object. The purpose of the level tag is to tell routing and rendering software what the vertical order of objects is. It indicates what connects to what, and, if they don't connect, what renders above what. It is not intended to hold floor names. On May 24, 2015 6:42:03 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Any objection if I 'rewrite http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:level ? It seems to have been written with the misconception that floor names are numbers when they're not. A rewrite: - Won't affect existing names that appear as numbers. - Will encourage mappers to use correct names for floors (as found in the building) rather than attempt to convert them to meaningless numbers. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas
In the USA, a dog park is an area of a public park, often enclosed by a fence, where you are allowed to play with your dog off-leash. In other sections of the park, or in an entire park if no section is designated as a dog park, you are likely to be cited and fined for letting your dog run free. On May 25, 2015 10:56:55 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: We'll be moving on to 'dog parks' next. That's places to park your dog (outside) while you visit a shop, for instance. It seems they do this in Rome - for a start. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas
We will need to use different tags for the two concepts, however. On May 25, 2015 3:43:47 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 25 May 2015 at 19:32, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: In the USA, a dog park is an area of a public park, often enclosed by a fence, where you are allowed to play with your dog off-leash. In other sections of the park, or in an entire park if no section is designated as a dog park, you are likely to be cited and fined for letting your dog run free. On May 25, 2015 10:56:55 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: We'll be moving on to 'dog parks' next. That's places to park your dog (outside) while you visit a shop, for instance. It seems they do this in Rome - for a start. A couple of examples for dog parks (place to park your dog): http://static.turistipercaso.it/image/s/sardegna/sardegna_5yv6e.T0.jpg http://aprireunbar.com/wp-content/uploads/foto-73.jpg It's a good job we can use different icons ! P with a dog v a greened area with icon showing 2 dogs playing. Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Water featuers
I always thought a cascade is a series of waterfalls connected together. Wether that is natural or artificial, I'm not sure there's a distinction. http://www.tripadvisor.com/MobileViewPhoto-g298182-d1311890-i131738347-Ryuzu_Waterfall-Nikko_Tochigi_Prefecture_Kanto.html I've visited a lot of waterfalls, and all of them go from top to bottom in a single fall - a water fall The one linked to is referred to by many as a cascade - because it is made of many little waterfalls stuck together sliding over rocks. This is further muddied because cascade is a verb - and streams and rough rivers cascade through a steep canyon. Also - saying a waterfall is a reflecting pool is very disingenuous - it's not that it reflects - it's *what* it reflects - usually some kind of scenery or famous architecture. The smooth calm waters offer views of surrounding trees, buildings and in some cases mountains - but are made and constructed for this purpose (as opposed to natural lakes, such as the ones around my Fuji which naturally reflect the mountain, offing interesting pictures). Many city parks offer them to reflect the view of the buildings - such as the big pool in the national mall in Washington, D.C. J Sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2015, at 3:45 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 23 May 2015 at 11:09, Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 03:54:57PM +0100, Andy Mabbett wrote: On 22 May 2015 at 15:29, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: I am uncomfortable with cascade - in several languages it means waterfall so there is considerable potential for confusion. I agree. A cascade is a waterfall in American English. Is that relevant ? ;) Is there really a problem with Americans relearning what words mean ? Actually, Merriam-Webster seems to have it right - even in American !: a small, steep waterfall; especially : one that is part of a series of waterfalls Although this points to an American cascades as being one part of an English cascade ! America uses 'waterfall' too - it seems 'cascade' is agreeable even if not realised! -- Mike. @millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via the area's premier website - currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets TCs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Damage Assessment Tags - Would like feedback on a schema
There is an organization already tracking crowd-sourced reports of needed repairs, SeeClickFix. I have used this to report issues such as blocked street drains. The local Public Works department monitors these reports and marks them closed once the needed repairs have been done. On May 24, 2015 2:56:21 AM Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 12:22 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Because it become available to others .. like the government/local authorities who may be in charge of repairs? Crowd source databases are not appropriate sources for government/local action at that level. Were there interest from a government/local authority, that agency could be granted protected access to the taking manager or other data store. Adding tags to the main database is not the only option for collecting, maintaining or distributing data. -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Airport power and USB stations
Electric outlets that have a USB-style connector, for charging cell phones and other portable devices, are fairly new. I don't recall seeing any until about a year ago. So, there is not yet a common name for them, to distinguish them from conventional electric outlets that offer only 120V AC. I have seen the USB charging kiosks in airports, but, again, am not aware of a specialized name for them. I charge my phone using a small adapter that plugs into a regular wall outlet or extension cord. On May 23, 2015 3:23:48 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 23 May 2015 at 17:47, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: The Wiki article clearly teaches that the amenity=charging_station tag was designed with vehicles in mind. Well if it's a VEHICLE charging station, it should have said that. They didn't specify what changing it was in the name - so it's surely open for all charging stations. And I reckon for those of you who expressed concern about rendering, that part of it isn't up to me, or us, and will be resolved later. The big question is whether to expand the use of the tag so it includes devices other than vehicles. The article mentions bicycles but doesn't go into detail about bicycle charging_stations except to say There are some different types of charging stations. E-Bikes e.g. can be charged at an domestic wall socket. To my mind, that opens the door to expanding the use of the tag. Asbolutely ! Also the notion of socket:type=USB or socket:USB=* (a number of sockets or yes) seems fine. The other keys mentioned in the Wiki entry can be used just as they are in many other similar situations: fee=* operator=* access=* voltage=* opening_hours=* These stations, or in the case of the Seattle airport, entire sections of seats, have domestic wall sockets offering a way to charge laptops as well as the USB output. The tag socket:nema_5_15=* denoting is bulky to say the least but if that's the established tag for the receptacles found in American homes, then it might work here too. What do 'standard Americans' call their sockets ? We shouldn't be using technical names on OSM unless that's the common name for them. Voltage is a useful bit of data. If we don't do it this way, clearly another amenity tag will be needed. I hate to start down that path because I know it will be difficult to achieve any consensus. In the meantime I have tagged those areas with amenity=charging_station until we resolve this question. Regards Dave -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Water featuers
The water feature we are talking about here is an artificial waterfall, usually pump-driven. On May 22, 2015 9:19:44 AM Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 02:00:30PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Am 22.05.2015 um 13:35 schrieb Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk: These might be cascades, rills, reflecting-pools, rain-chains, moats, etc. We might, for example, have: natural=water water=cascde etc. - but not: water=fountain as we already have amenity=fountain or we could have: amenity=cascade I am uncomfortable with cascade - in several languages it means waterfall so there is considerable potential for confusion. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Estate agent
True. Some tailors have pre-made garments, which they alter as needed to fit the customer, in addition to or instead of making garments from scratch. I would describe the facility that includes pre-made garments as shop=tailor, and the facility that makes all garments from raw cloth for each customer as craft=tailor. On May 18, 2015 8:34:49 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 18.05.2015 um 15:13 schrieb Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: Except that several values have moved away from shop like shop=tailer = craft=tailor. I mean we have have more than 1000 tags with shop=craft Go on page 9,10,... http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/shop#values and you will find many values, which are not shops and have better established tagging alternatives. I believe there are tailors in shops and tailors working in different context, just because there are several keys with the exact same value doesn't mean they say exactly the same thing. If you look at the numbers, there are more than double the amount of tailors tagged where the mapper put emphasis on the shop compared to those where the emphasis was put on the craft. On page 9 in taginfo shop values, there are pois with 34 uses, I don't care for these, they're too few to make any kind of mainstream statistics/to draw conclusions. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com (615) 299-6451 Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas
From my experience, rest areas along the US Interstate Highway system (motorways in OSM terms) usually have a designated area for this, generally on the opposite side of the parking lot from the building holding human restrooms, so that there is a reduced risk of stepping in a pet dropping for the general public. On May 15, 2015 2:32:25 AM CDT, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Since so may people in Japan travel with small dogs, most parking areas and many service areas have pet areas (I think they are called), where you can let your dog out of the car and walk them or let them deficate. This is not an enclosed space - there are no fences or facilities. They are there specifically to let your pet relieve themselves. I believe the fenced-in no-leash areas are called dog runs. Could these airport areas for pets be be the same thing as my PA/SA areas? Javbw. On May 15, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: These stations are in facilities such as airports, and they are open to whatever animal needs them: pets, service dogs, and unruly children as appropriate. Many of them are indoors. Since they are likely to include access to dog waste bags, they could be a subtag under vending. Ugh. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com (615) 299-6451 Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pet Relief Areas
Since so may people in Japan travel with small dogs, most parking areas and many service areas have pet areas (I think they are called), where you can let your dog out of the car and walk them or let them deficate. This is not an enclosed space - there are no fences or facilities. They are there specifically to let your pet relieve themselves. I believe the fenced-in no-leash areas are called dog runs. Could these airport areas for pets be be the same thing as my PA/SA areas? Javbw. On May 15, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: These stations are in facilities such as airports, and they are open to whatever animal needs them: pets, service dogs, and unruly children as appropriate. Many of them are indoors. Since they are likely to include access to dog waste bags, they could be a subtag under vending. Ugh. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of amenity from OSM tagging
The real question is: At what scale is the Amenity an amenity of something? This variable answer is the source of he confusion. At the beginning, it was the amenity of the town. Amenity=school and amenity=hospital is a great example. But tagging complexity quickly grew in some objects (and not others), so town amenities still exist, but newer schemes to tag other town level objects (like shops) are under different tags. This creates confusion. Those amenities got a top level tag to refine them, but they don't control the object's definition (ie school=university) Then newer amenity tags described location level information (like a building's amenities). But again, other tagging schemes were made for more complex items at that level, so some are in amenity and some aren't. Now we're tagging sub-location level tags - sidewalks and trees and covers and clocks and doors - and the amenity tag again has a few amenities (I think) at this level as well, and other tag schemes that have more specified data (like clock=*), but are still tied to amenity. The trick is to murder the town level amenity tags, letting the amenity tag to focus (at least) location level amenities, if not smaller. Amenity=school should be landuse=school, for example. This refocus would help people understand that we are talking about location level amenities (at least), not town level ones (as there is no amenity=shop) This should help change the feeling that everything should be an amenity tag with a subtag to sort out its details. Amenity= was probably a great solution at first, but it's too scattershot now. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] amenity vs. shop *=ice_cream
+1 Unless it is an amenity of a larger place, Like a Willy Wonka ice cream pool where you can just scoop ice cream out of with your hand - that's an amenity. A shop sells things. Like ice cream. I already described a shop that sells ice cream takeaway only (and not soft serve or scooped) - so I'm sure there are other chains like the one I know. Javbw. On May 15, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: That is a very simple 'rule' .. if it sells a product .. it is a shop ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed
I have seen some tight intersections, with buildings directly adjoining the roadway at all four corners, where a maxlength tag would also be useful. A passenger car or a delivery truck would be able to turn the corner, but a tractor-trailer rig (heavy goods vehicle) or bus would get wedged in place. On May 13, 2015 6:15:22 AM CDT, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 4:03 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Don't agree with this... there have been discussions in the past about whether the width of a way includes the pavements etc... Where a road goes under a bridge, where do you measure the height of the road? The highest point (not good enough for vehicles) or the lowest highest point or in the middle of the road? I would expect maxheight:physical to apply to a normal vehicle, of maybe 2.5m width. There are cases where maxheight:physical and maxwidth:physical may be different from the legal definitions and significantly affect the viability. A standout problem regularly occurs in Oregon where you can have human powered vehicles up to about 3 feet wide legally, but many cycleways, particularly older ones built before the 1990s, have barriers that make all but the 10-speeds with drop bars impractical as negotiating the barriers that keep motorists out also prevent longer or wider bicycles from fitting. Similar issues exist on Oklahoma turnpikes, which commonly allow vehicles up to 11'6 wide, but the typical cash toll booth is only capable of fitting a 9'5 wide vehicle. Go figure. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com (615) 299-6451 Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles - surface=pebblestone ?
In American usage, gravel refers to both rounded and unrounded stones of similar size. For example, concrete often makes use of crushed stone in the gravel size; it is angular rather than rounded. Pea gravel is often used as an ornamental surface layer for concrete, but not for use within a concrete slab, since it is more expensive. On May 12, 2015 4:47:54 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-05-10 14:19 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com: *pebbles* is similar to gravel, only that loose pebbles are used in place of the gravel. The pebbles are bigger than the gravel pieces, and rounded. reading several sources it appears to me that gravel is rounded too, the wiki seems wrong here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface wrong picture and wrong description, wrong size specification... FWIW, pebbles seem to be a subset of gravel (grain size): granular gravel (2 to 4 mm) pebble gravel (4 to 64 mm) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
This is a group doing some kind of specialized mapping for their pilots. We' discussing the best way for them to tag things for their use. This is not a tag all the soccer pitches helicopters could land on discussion. Javbw On May 11, 2015, at 8:00 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: There are a number of reasons we shouldn't tag random places as potential emergency helipads: Ground conditions overhead obstructions don't think we're qualified to make assessment (without site visit and heli knowledge) A heli pilot wouldn't use our info - he'd always make his own assessment on the day - so little point in having 'data'. etc. -- Mike. @millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via the area's premier website - currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets TCs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
In the same way, there is a tradition of boiled cookies in the USA, that are on the borderline between cookies (biscuits, in British terminology) and candy. They involve a sticky, sweetened grain, most commonly oatmeal (rolled oats). Here is an example: http://dessert.food.com/recipe/no-bake-chocolate-oatmeal-cookies-23821 On May 11, 2015 10:47:43 AM CDT, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: There are Japanese non-baked confectioneries. (I believe similar confectioneries in other countries. esp. in Asia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagashi If we take only a) plan, I'm afraid of we could not represent cultural variations. +1 to Janko's a+b), and to express the specialty, moltonel's confectionery:FOO=yes confectionery:BAR=yes. 2015-05-12 0:24 GMT+09:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: I would be more in favor of a+b) because you might want to tag a place with shop=pastry because 95% of their assortiment is pastry, but they have 5% candy so you add candy=yes. Janko pon, 11. svi 2015. 17:12 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com je napisao: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but shops selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw sug^W^Wsubtags makes sense too. For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I think that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best practices better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I prefer the later). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my
Re: [Tagging] Tagging village sign
In the USA, such signs are more commonly at or near the edge of the community, so that you see what community you are entering, rather than at its center. Also, while some communities have a public square, not all do so. On May 8, 2015 4:50:37 AM CDT, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 May 2015 at 23:11, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: Tips on tagging a village sign please. Village sign: an ornate sign located fairly central to the village - such as on the village green. There are lots of these signs near where I live. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_sign for examples. I've always used man_made=village_sign to tag them -- which seems to have a number of uses according to http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=village+sign#values (although a good proportional of them are probably down to me). The village name shown on the sign should also be recorded, and for that I've used name=*. I know that perhaps doesn't quite fit with the usual use of name=*, as here it's the name being shown, rather than the name of the sign, but I thought it was close enough. But if anyone has any better suggestions there... Robert. -- Robert Whittaker ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles - surface=pebblestone ?
Speaking as an American, I would refer to that as a mix of cobbles and setts (some of the stones in the photo look rounded, some squared, and some irregular). They appear ti be about the size of a human palm. I think of pebbles as rocks of finger-diameter or less, such as the pea gravel often used on the surface of concrete driveways, for ornamental reasons. On May 11, 2015 6:46:10 AM CDT, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 10 May 2015 at 15:34, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 10 May 2015 at 13:19, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: pebblestones is a road surface where pebbles are set in sand or mortar (?) and is typically seen in old cities. Example: http://mapillary.com/map/im/2KnVHcwLqcyy6Qis4iWF1Q In British English, those are cobbles or cobblestinoes: Those are pebbles - or pebblestone Cobbles are rounded and difficult to walk on http://primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/coronation-street-new-set-health-hazard-stars-keep-tripping-new-cobbles/ esp. when wet Then there's setts http://www.dcrainmaker.com/images/2013/01/IMG_9827.jpg - squarer blocks -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] HOT: potential Helicopter landings leisure=common
This is definitely something that needs a site survey. On May 11, 2015 6:00:29 AM CDT, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: There are a number of reasons we shouldn't tag random places as potential emergency helipads: - Ground conditions - overhead obstructions - don't think we're qualified to make assessment (without site visit and heli knowledge) - A heli pilot wouldn't use our info - he'd always make his own assessment on the day - so little point in having 'data'. - etc. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
Minor nitpick: desserts are sweet foods, usually eaten at the end of a meal. Deserts are areas with little rainfall, and sparse or no vegetation. On May 11, 2015 6:17:08 PM CDT, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But is pastry = patisserie ? To me it is, but deserts are very tied to the local culture, so I'm sure opinions will differ. http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/de/f0/35/el-tawhid-pastry.jpg http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/28/25/df/patisserie-richard.jpg Because the first image is what every bakery in Germany usually sells, too. But the 2nd one while you can often find some limited selection at bakeries, is what we usually buy at a Konditorei which has a much larger selecter with higher quality and looks like this: http://www.reschinsky.com/online/media/Torten_2.jpg A french patisserie will sell both kinds. A boulangerie will almost always also sell croisants (the first kind) even if it sells no other sweet stuff. For what it's worth, the first kind is generally refered to vienoiseries in France (where I come from) and danish pastry in Ireland (where I live). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed tag shop=wholesale
You show your membership card at the door for entry, and again at purchase. All services and purchases are tied to your membership account. There are some regulations that prevent certain kinds of business from being membership based - so the pharmacy in the U.S. And Japan (don't know about others) are open to everyone and have a separate, non-membership, register everyone uses in their section, but you have to use the normal entrance/exit. But for 99% of customers and products purchased, it is a membership store. But it is a store that many many people have membership to (most people I know have one). Javbw Sent from my iPhone On May 9, 2015, at 7:46 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 09.05.2015 um 06:18 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: access = membership ? do you need the membership for access or to buy something? Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed tag shop=wholesale
That's the argument on why I can't put brake pads on my car in Japan. I can't buy anything but air filters, batteries, motor oil in Japan - so car parts stores are either jammed full of accessories or you are buying through a trade/wholesale supplier who knows you are a certified mechanic shop. Such a pain. So depending on the country, access to things common in other countries might have access restrictions. (Access=trade? Access=membership?) Javbw On May 10, 2015, at 3:32 AM, ael law_ence@ntlworld.com wrote: On Sat, May 09, 2015 at 11:49:31AM +1000, Warin wrote: On 9/05/2015 11:10 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl mailto:i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Note that we also have shop=trade. It would be good to make the difference between both tags clear (of deprecate shop=trade, which I wouldn't oppose). trade is an attribute. Any type of shop (plumbing, electrical, lumber, restaurant supplies) could be trade focused. Such shops do not cater to walk in consumer traffic, and may be hostile to customers who come in without trade knowledge. Wholesale implies a large quantity of goods, they sell in quantity (the quantity may be over some time, say a year). A 'Trade' shop implies specialist goods and specialist knowledge, not things that are present in supermarkets. An Electronics trade shop will know what a 12 puff capacitor is and have several types available, high Q please. A Plumbers trade shop will have several types of stop cocks available... etc. A trade shop may accept walk in customers .. but give them retail prices where as a trade person would get trade price. Some trades are protected by law and a trade shop may refuse sales based on that .. usually safety related. Yes. That was the sort of thing I meant when I invented shop=trade... ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] US-style destination sign tagging
On May 10, 2015, at 1:31 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: It seems that the destination sign tagging is a bit European-specific in expecting signs to have only one border, back and arrow color. That makes it a little hard to tag signs like these multicolored phenomenons: http://mapillary.com/map/im/fiAnz2BPUy_AICzS24dSXw I have multicolored signs with multicolored junction roads. http://goo.gl/maps/WhDDq (note the road sign arrows in each direction and the colored dashes on the edge of the lanes) The roads now are painted complexly blue and pink for the correct ramps to match the road sign arrows. The color of the arrows are important, as well as the ability to render the ramp colour=* on OSM. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed tag shop=wholesale
On May 9, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Wholesale implies a large quantity of goods, they sell in quantity (the quantity may be over some time, say a year). Then wholesale is an subtag on the shop, since it doesn't describe what they are selling, right? There are wholesale trade shops, wholesale food shops, wholesale lumber shops, etc... Is there some tag for membership, or is that assumed knowledge if you live in the region? (Most people in Japan know costco is membership, for example). Thinking about it reminds me I have no idea how to tag them, along with the sub-businesses inside (food court, pharmacy, tire shop, etc). I just put shop nodes in the building, but maybe that's not the best way to do it. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed tag shop=wholesale
On May 9, 2015, at 4:00 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Andrew MacKinnon andrew...@gmail.com wrote: I propose to create the tag shop=wholesale for stores that sell large quantities of merchandise in bulk, such as Costco and Sam's Club. Many such stores require a membership to join. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warehouse_club. This tag has 320 uses in taginfo already. A wholesale merchant sells to retailers and service businesses, usually not to consumers. Warehouse clubs are a better description of Costco and Sam's club. +1 price club started out as restaurant and convince store supply. It slowly grew into a consumer outlet. But there are many stores open to he public that cater to professionals in that business - meaning their *stock* is tailored to the professional vs the consumer - a consumer doesn't have the need nor the knowledge to shop at a professional shop, though they can enter and buy if they want. These stores are valuable but uncommon, and are usually really focused on a specific industry. I used to got to an industrial supply store - high end tools, high end consumables, and high-end hardware (bolts, fasteners, etc) that are not house building bolts and screws like you'd find at Home Depot. http://goo.gl/maps/isNqa That shop is not meant for a consumer, but consumers can shop there. Costco and SAMs club are totally meant for consumers - they just require a membership. Javbw. -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging of pitches within a campsite
There are several RV based camps in the mountains of San Diego that are large camps with amenities, stores, fishing pond, and other things. Yes, there is tent camping, but the major focus is the people staying (longer than a day) in their RV and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever around them - they are places where city people can park for a weekend or so. The Morelia almost exactly like a U.S. Forestry park , but private and more vehicle centric. I believe it's a chain thousand trails if I remember correctly - so there is much more to RV camping some places than just an asphalt lot and a pit toilet. Between us all talking here, we span continents, experiences, and have seen different ways camps are organized -the flexibility with the proposed system seems good enough to adapt to them all. Javbw On May 6, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 10:17 PM, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net wrote: I haven’t been in a RV/caravan only type campground There are some like that, maybe a concrete or tarmac base so tent pages a problem, maybe operator/owner just wants self contained campers. I'd suggest for this purpose we treat them as the same, #define caravan_site = camp_site. There are other tags to tell the difference. The amenity=caravan_site was indeed invented for what amounts to a parking lot for overnight use by RV's. These are just a parking lot, and perhaps toilets/dump station. No lake. No trees. No recreation. Just parking for people exploring a nearby town, or en-route elsewhere. That's different from a liesure=camp_site that happens to allow RV's. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging of pitches within a campsite
I am using K-9, an open-source Android app. On May 5, 2015 6:35:40 PM CDT, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net wrote: On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 18:22 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote: It has been many years since I last went tent-camping, but my experience of campgrounds in the US national park system was numbered poles marking each campsite, a grassy area for pitching a tent, and a charcoal grill mounted on a steel pole. You weren't allowed to cut brush or to have a fire on the ground, only one in the charcoal grill, as a precaution against wildfires. There was a wooden outhouse (pit toilet) shared by multiple campsites. Similar here in some Australian National Parks but also have more Caravan Park like ones and some National Parks where you can camp where you find a bit of clear ground. We need to cover the lot. P.S. Hey John, your emails arrive with each paragraph one long line requiring scrolling miles to the right to read. What email client do you use ? David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging of pitches within a campsite
It has been many years since I last went tent-camping, but my experience of campgrounds in the US national park system was numbered poles marking each campsite, a grassy area for pitching a tent, and a charcoal grill mounted on a steel pole. You weren't allowed to cut brush or to have a fire on the ground, only one in the charcoal grill, as a precaution against wildfires. There was a wooden outhouse (pit toilet) shared by multiple campsites. On May 2, 2015 3:39:47 PM CDT, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: It may be common in some areas to allow pitching tents anywhere within a designated area. But I have mapped a couple of backcountry (backpack) trail camps that have a numbered post at each pitch, so I know that they do exist and we ought to allow for it. In the two cases I can think of at the moment they pitches were fairly spartan with only a cleared area and fire ring for each. Perhaps they exist in my area because of issues with fire danger: They really only want you having a fire or using a camp stove in designated areas. Maybe areas that get more rain don’t need to worry as much about that type of thing. Cheers, Tod On May 2, 2015, at 1:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: camp sites with tents from my experience often don't number pitches but let you set up your tent anywhere you want (within a certain area) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Camps
Do we really need to tag activity type? Religion, sports, or operator should take care of it. There's not a a lot of Buddhism practice at my school camp (any at all?), nor would I expect religion to be the activity - it is merely the operator or the thing in common. I bet the people at the Jewish camp are just having fun camping with similar people or many friends as a group. Otherwise it is merely a church in the mountains, which there are a few of too. The idea of communal_camp, group_camp or theme_camp is a good one - guess the purpose built and operated Boy Scout camps could go under there (as long as it isn't scout camp, as that is too restrictive) But the church retreat - a building in the woods where you drive up and and stay and do religious stuff (without tents, camping, or outdoor activities). Is merely a church in the woods. Javbw On May 5, 2015, at 11:06 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 5:36 PM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: I think this will best handled in operator for existing camp sites (plus access=private) or possibly make a separate tag under school= for the school camps - as those are usually very affiliated with the district or region operating them. +-0 Operator is good. But access=private is problematic. Take this example: name=Camp Tawonga subtitle=Jewish Themed Family Camp operator=Camp Tawonga website=http://tawonga.org/ religion=jewish It's no more private than the private caravan site down the road. It charges a fee, and requires reservations, just like the caravan site. Families can come, just like the caravan site. It has trees and a river, just like the caravan site. The only real differences are the campers arrive in groups (here each week), and experience themed group activities (here Jewish ones). It's a communal activity camp. But tagging gets tortured: amenity=camp_site camp_site:type=communal_activity communal_activity:type=judiasm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Camps
. -1 Too easily confused with campgrounds. Yep, +1 The core difference between a summer camp and a campground is that the former has organized communal activities, and probably one or more themes (kids, religion, archery, etc.), and probably restrictions on arrival and departure (e.g. week long sessions all summer). So consider tagging that talks about those themes. Trying to get into stay times, activity, and camp layout is really a big can of worms, because every country or culture will draw the line differently, and depending on climate, the camp style will vary as well. School camps have to be very conservative and offer a lot of amenities, whereas a Boy Scout camp does not. A religious facility may only have a statute or a name denoting its religion (like my Buddhist school's Mountain camp for their students) and be functionally identical to a secular camp (like the city school'camp facility up the road), so the religion= tag should be sufficient. Also summer camp may end up being spring, fall, or winter, in other countries (ours begins hiking in late April, and our city camp is used in 3 seasons by various schools for various reasons) I think this will best handled in operator for existing camp sites (plus access=private) or possibly make a separate tag under school= for the school camps - as those are usually very affiliated with the district or region operating them. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tag: shop: hifi
Sent from my iPhone On May 2, 2015, at 2:32 AM, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: electronics says Tandy / Radio Shack / Maplin to me - with components, boards and soldering irons and cables/connectors. For me that would be electronic_parts or electronic_components these days. +1 - these are totally electronic_components. So we have a generic term and many other specific terms for the most popular classes of electronics, like mobile phones, computers (and even PCs/laptops/tablets if we want to), home entertrainment (TV sets, Video/DVD/Blu-ray players, then also Hi-Fi including tuners, CD players, speakers, heapdhones and special cables), industrial electronics etc. All of this already has a well established name : consumer electronics. CE In Japan they have electric goods stores - denki shops - they sell every single item that uses electricity in your house - computers, air conditioners, fans, toasters, washing machines, cameras, hair curlers, light bulbs, and everything else - which is broader than almost any electronics shop in America. Every country has slightly different kinds of each shop, and a couple combinations that don't exist elsewhere. For the Hifis, it can be broken out further: Home Theater or Home Entertainment. This includes tvs and sound systems that go with them, or stand alone receivers. A shop that just sells audio(phile) gear is home audio. I don't think there are shops for industrial audio supply (except maybe in Hollywood) - not too many people running out to pick up a half million dollar mixing board. Usually a shop that sells audio streaming gear will also sell receivers and speakers and the rest of the home audio gear. CE doesn't include industrial electronics - as consumers don't buy assembly line management computers, embedded computers to be installed in cars (engine management), or other stuff people would use to build products, run machinery, or embed in other products. Those are not really in any shop. Computers are usually a separate category (though they are a CE device now), however that line is blurring more every day - Apple was a computer company, but currently makes 85% of its profits from CE devices (phones tablets, and now watches) Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - opening hours default PH off
In the USA, there aren't any public holidays on a national scale on which businesses are required to close. I don't know of any such laws on a state scale, but I am not familiar with the laws of all 50 states. Government agencies tend to close on Federal holidays, and on some state holidays, varying agency by agency and state by state. For private businesses, it is the employer's decision. Retail businesses tend to hold special sales on days when many people will be off from work. On April 30, 2015 11:04:07 AM CDT, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Thu Apr 30 16:40:25 2015 GMT+0100, Michał Brzozowski wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Robin `ypid` Schneider ypi...@aol.de wrote: Hi everyone As noted by Ein Mapper on [the current weekly task in Germany][1] it would be convenient to have an implicit PH off added to most opening_hours values during evaluation. I had not thought about this before but now that I do I agree more and more that this makes sense and wrote a proposal [2]. Any thoughts about this? Don't be German-centric :-P (I know that basically everything closes on public holidays in Germany). It really is another hoop to jump through, another thing that we impose on data consumers of this already potentially (edge cases) very elaborated tag. And while a notion of SH/PH is rather well defined for a mapper in given country, default closure in these days may be not. Another table to maintain. It really makes more problems than it solves: is PH off supposed to apply also to 24/7 features? E.g. convenience shop vs an outdoor ATM. +1 You would also have to define which public holidays, in the Uk Christmas Day and Easter Sunday have restrictions, other public holidays are at the businesses discretion and will vary from year to year. Phil (trigpoint ) -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging of pitches within a campsite
On Apr 30, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: I chose addr:housenumber because that's perfectly set up for routers That sounds like “tagging for the renderer” to me. I find it distasteful to reuse part of the addr:* namespace for this but if it must be done then addr:unit is far more appropriate than addr:housenumber. +1 I know there are many camp sites that don't have official housenumbers, and that using :housenumber would allow for easy routing. But there are a lot of camp sites that do have housenumbers. And every single car camping site in Japan (which is a majority of camping sites with numbered pitches) will have a housenumber assigned to the camp-site *land* regardless of street names, because there are no residential street names (they use lot numbers rather than street numbers), and there are no housenumbers that are smaller than lot - so tagging in this way would be fundamentally against address tagging in Japan. You can't make up your own subdivisions. Region, city, village, neighborhood (or division #) - subdivision# - lot# Ex: Gunma Region, Kiryu city, Machi village, 4-12 (subdivision 4, lot #12). You can't just tack on a -23 to show pitch number (4-12-23) because you feel like it. 4-12-23 would then be interpreted as 4 being a large section division inside the village (which is common in Tokyo), subdivision 12 lot 23, which is really far away from 4-12. Even if the routing still worked (as only 23 is on the pitch), if it was rendered, then people visually navigating would assume that that is lot 23 - not the address to the campground! And very narrow and tight neighborhoods have very tight lot numbers, so it would be thought that this array of camp pitches is merely an array of small Japanese houses - not a campground. I have seen neighborhoods with houses smaller than US camp pitches. Apartments, units, buildings, suites, and other such informal address numbers are not part of the housenumber system. Even in other countries, where the housenumber would be a tag on the area for the campground, why would there be additional housenumbers inside a single address!? Addr:unit=* is the best fit for what an individual pitch # is inside an individual campground, after that, ref=* Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Meeting point
The very large train stations in Tokyo have traditional meeting points, as a popular one would be near the Hachiko statue in Shibuya. I believe they are signed. I think the meeting point has a name beyond meeting point, so would it be okay to name I of it has an actual name beyond its function (even if it is East meeting point or Exit C8 meeting point if it says that on the sign? Javbw On Apr 25, 2015, at 5:11 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:00:34 -0700 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: place=meeting_point name=Meeting Point Place is used for all sorts of named places, both governmentally sanctioned and not. name is for names, not for describing functions You're right. That should just be: place=meeting_point Perhaps, thought it really is not needed in most cases: operator=Big Convention Hall ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
The fire type is most important, but depending on the material used, it can be used on several types - So +1 for tagging the material first and foremost. Most common household extinguishers in the US are dry powder ABC extinguishers. At the bottom of the #united states section is a conversion chart - and they all lead back to what _type of fire_ is trying to be put out: Regular combustibles Liquids Gasses Electrical Metals Fats So my US ABC extinguisher in my garage would be: Fire_extinguisher=dry_powder Fire_extinguisher:regular=yes Fire_extinguisher:liquids=yes Fire_extinguisher:gasses=yes Fire_extinguisher:electrical=yes Fire_extinguisher:USA_code=ABC Fire_extinguisher:checked_date:old Colour=white Optional for my extinguisher Fire_extinguisher:cert_until:old Fire_extinguisher:signed=no Fire_extinguisher:metals=no Fire_extinguisher:fats=no Fire_extinguisher:label=no My old ABC ones are white, so color doesn't always denote what is inside. Trees are no label color codes in the U.S. The letter codes change per location, so noting if it is UK or NZ or US is important. Many fire extinguishers in public places are signed. In Japan they have cabinets, cases, lockers, little stands with a sign, and ones with a cone hat on top to keep the dust off. They have them everywhere in public buildings, sitting in a corner in a little stand with a little sign on a little pole. http://ec.midori-anzen.com/img/goods/L/4082101826.jpg http://media.mediatemple.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/uploader/images/signs/fire-extinguisher-operating-guide/full_nagoya-shopping-mall-fire-extinguisher-operating-guide.jpg Cataloging the check date could be very useful to some mappers. If it doesn't have a pressure dial and is passed its expiration, it should be marked =old - as it is assumed without inspection the extinguisher is old or expired, and may not be reliable. If it has no pressure gauge and is expired, then it is very important to tag =old/expired - but having used a couple expired ones to put out a fire, I'm glad they were there. For extinguishers with visible pressure gauges, the person collecting the data is the checker, and therefore the data collection date is the check date, since it can easily be seen on many fire extinguishers if it is correctly pressurized. Certified extinguishers have a cert tag that will note the date that the extinguisher is certified to. People managing extinguishers might find that really nice to know if they want to collect the data for their uses (like a fire dept or something). Javbw On Apr 24, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Craig Wallace craig...@fastmail.fm wrote: In the UK, the class is not printed huge letters. They main thing they are labelled with is the contents of the extinguisher, with a coloured stripe. ie red for water, blue for powder, black for CO2. Then tag whatever's visible if the goal is to help someone find the device: fire_extinguisher:label=Class B/C fire_extinguisher:label=Black Though anyone who consults their smartphone during a fire is probably missing the point :-). Class 8A 55B 75F is for the person purchasing the device, or learning what's available in a facility, not so much for during the emergency. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] proposal - camp_site=
Sent from my iPhone On Apr 23, 2015, at 8:40 PM, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net wrote: On Thu, 2015-04-23 at 15:16 +0900, johnw wrote: That’s why I thought informal yet legal spots would be good wording to cover this, and maybe link over to the camp_type proposal here - because with the wording for basic, the first thing I thought about was the legality or designation of the spot, thinking it would influence the camp_site= level - when it fact it is all inside the camp_type proposal. You will have to help me here John, I don't quite see what you are trying to achieve. Here in AU it is, sort of, legal to camp anywhere that is not private property and not declared no camping. I see camp_site= used only where there is some substantial legal basis, (where that is unclear, its camp_type=). * In countries/places where the default is to allow camping, no sign or official endorsement is needed, just lack of a sign saying no camping. * In other countries/places, where camping is not allowed unless its so stated, we'd need to see that statement. So, the term, 'legal' does have a slightly different meaning here depending on where you are. But if we try and define it too tightly, we may well end up excluding some local variation. Not sure thats a good idea. Would it work better if we added a small block that talks about just that, how 'legal' has that slightly different meaning ? That block would be a good place to say camp_type might be a better tag when the legal status is unclear or undefined ? David Basic+non_designated would be a common tag set for small road or track-side camping spots - but often camping at them can be trespassing or not allowed, which varies from country to country. The local variation is in the legalpart I wanted to impress upon people. Some countries have huge areas considered always open for camping. In the U.S. There are no such rules. Even on public land - it might be managed wilderness, a national park or a state park, and all have different uses on where camping is and isn't allowed, and informal camps by the roadside are often trespassing or doing environmental damage that the park rangers try to stop. Camp in marked places only is often noted. There are a lot of illegal informal camp sites in the U.S. They would be informal yet legal in your country. The people using them know they are trespassing or not allowed to be there, but they do so anyways. This is very true in Japan, and if you read blogs about Trekkers or road bikers, they often camp illegally on private property - they act in a nice manner, yet it is illegal to do so. I don't want people to map known illegal camp sites or places they just happened to spend the night and think are nice but are on a farmers private property just to complete the map, as map the ground truth means mapping basic+non-designated camps if there was no mention of legality. People mapping in Sweden may not have to worry, but people in Japan would have to be very careful. Javbw. I’m sure this will come up with other taggers as well. I think camp_type=non_designated + camp_site=basic will be used together quite frequently, so reminding people of that is pretty important - it lets voters know why these two proposals go together well. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] electric zigarrettes
Sent from my iPhone On Apr 24, 2015, at 7:01 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: to me using e-cigarettes *is* smoking. +1 An i-phone is still considered a phone. The rules governing e-cigs will stem from smoking in most places. I'm not going to include BBQs in smoking rules because it happens to generate smoke (some are literally smokers!) and cut e-cigs out because they have a different delivery method for addictive substances. The rules for Asthma inhalers (if they existed) would not be under vaporizers, even though both are methods of inhaling chemicals. I recognize that rules governing them can be different, but they are a subset of smoking rules. They are not as separate from smoking as the rules for if pets are allowed, bicycle parking or no tattoos allowed. Socially, vaping and smoking are exactly the same. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] fire extinguisher class
On Apr 24, 2015, at 8:46 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: they look at the colour. I agree that the letter codes wouldn't be used when looking for an extinguisher, but it is used for managing them. The color codes are not universal either. Also, here in Japan there are hello kitty fire extinguishers. I wonder what fire they put out. http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Sd55bFa_--/t9mjwszslwfxhxpqn9qu.jpg All public extinguishers are red (with a hose). I've used red, black, and white ones (all dry powder) in the U.S., and in my basement is a sea-foam green one (that's maybe 40 years old). I think it is a water filled one. Color codes only work in certain countries or regions. We may only need to render the extinguisher icon, but the other info can be useful to people checking on distribution or age, or looking to see what ones are mapped vs what exist (like looking for the black wall mounted one) Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] proposal - camp_site=
Seems great ! Javbw On Apr 24, 2015, at 9:52 AM, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net wrote: On Fri, 2015-04-24 at 06:47 +0900, John Willis wrote: I don't want people to map known illegal camp sites or places they just happened to spend the night and think are nice but are on a farmers private property just to complete the map, as map the ground truth means mapping basic+non-designated camps if there was no mention of legality. Ok, I have added a section, Legal Camp Sites, to the proposal page. It says legal only. Mappers have responsibility to ensure accurate data where they are mapping ... Please let me know what you think. David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
In my experience, rivers, unlike harbors, generally don't have buoys or other markers showing the location of the navigational channel, probably because the flow would be likely to wash them away. On April 21, 2015 1:08:42 AM CDT, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:47 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: The location of the deepest channel can change over time, as mudbanks or sandbanks shift position. This is why commercial vessels operating on rivers frequently rely upon a succession of pilots, each familiar with a particular portion of the river. Unless an OSM mapper has surveyed a portion of the river recently with a depth gauge, they would have to rely on possibly-out-of-date information from some other map. At least to the navigable depth, in theory, this can be inferred from navigational markings for anyone familiar with the relevant fixtures, beacons and bouys. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] addr:interpolation on highway
Would you need to split the road into two ways, one for the left side and one for the right side, even if the roadway is not actually divided? This would cause a mismatch between the rendering and what is physically present. On April 21, 2015 3:33:13 PM CDT, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: I think it is not the best idea, other people may need to split road - and as result multiple ways will have addr:housenumber=100-500. Yes, that's an issue. So is doubling the way sharing nodes. And also creating a parallel way creates issues. And relation tagging is complex, and beyond many mappers. However do note a good automated agent can readily figure that a split way with identical interpolation should be combined. The question is what will hand mappers do with such tagging? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] electric zigarrettes
I haven't been back to America for a while, but the no smoking signs had and e-cigarettes added to the bottom when I was back last year. It may not be technically a cigarette, but it is perceived to be in the same family as other things that protrude from your mouth and allow for nicotine consumption through heating. If they have any kind of smell (I've never seen one yet - as 40% of people in my region of Japan just smoke) they they will probably continue to be lumped in with tobacco, as smelly things are still considered rude. I assume vaporizing resin must produce some crappy smells. Similar restrictions on purchase might also be continued. Also, just as we think of an iPhone as a phone - when it really isn't - we still categorize it as a phone. Over time, e-cigarettes might eventually replace burning tobacco cigarettes, but they are a continuation of the idea of cigarettes - so keeping the rules for them with cigarettes for tagging is a good idea. I don't expect to find iPhones under pocket computer shop- A shop that sells iPhone accessories is selling phone accessories, not pocket computer accessories, though we could make such a distinction. Javbw On Apr 23, 2015, at 2:21 AM, Thorsten Alge li...@thorsten-alge.de wrote: However just repeating the smoking tagging scheme can cover all cases the smoking tag does: smoking=no vaporizing=no vaporizing:outside=separated smoking:outside=no Remember there's no need to tag something that's already a legal restriction (such as the area I live in which has a blanket ban). I think so too so I will tag it this way. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] proposal - camp_site=
I had a question about basic - I understand it's amenity level (flat spot + access) but the legality bit being the only qualifier: Would it just be for places that are somehow signed as for camping(designated), places where camping is legal and common (informal [yet legally allowed] existing site), or just any place that's legal that the mapper wishes to tag (legal). I assume you mean designated + informal existing, not just anywhere technically legal. I would change the wording to be something like for signed camping areas or informal yet legal spots where camping is common. People can fudge the common to mean what they want, but without it, in some places that could mean every single roadside turnout could be marked as a campground - which would not be so helpful. Otherwise it looks really good. I look forward to voting yes ^_^ Javbw On Apr 23, 2015, at 7:42 AM, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net wrote: OK, I think the discussion on camp_site= has settled down and now concentrates on things that are just outside the current proposal and probably need to stay there for now. Thoughts, yes, no ? I have mentioned on the proposal page tagging of individual pitches and declared that out of scope for now. I have added backcountry=yes as a possible tag to be used in association with this new tag If there are no objections or further suggestions, I'll move to voting in a day or so. please see - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Camp_Site David On Tue, 2015-04-21 at 14:23 +0300, Dave Swarthout wrote: Would it not be ok to say (eg) - tourism=camp_site camp_site=basic backcountry=yes That's exactly what I was proposing. It isn't a tag describing the amenities of the camp so much as to indicate that it is a certain type of camp, one not accessible by vehcles. In New Zealand I believe these would be called trekking sites. I have no experience with Australia but I'm guessing the term would mean the same thing. On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
The location of the deepest channel can change over time, as mudbanks or sandbanks shift position. This is why commercial vessels operating on rivers frequently rely upon a succession of pilots, each familiar with a particular portion of the river. Unless an OSM mapper has surveyed a portion of the river recently with a depth gauge, they would have to rely on possibly-out-of-date information from some other map. On April 18, 2015 11:32:49 AM CDT, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: On 13.04.2015 15:06, Torstein Ingebrigtsen Bø wrote: I'm currently importing topological data of Norway to OSM. From the data set we have riverbanks; however, we do not have the deepest middle way as required by the wiki [1]. As the deepest middle way is hard to identify for regular mappers, I would be surprised if many people considered that a strict prerequisite for mapping rivers. So from my point of view, it would be acceptable for your import to automatically generate the way from the riverbank area and upload both the way and area. This is assuming you know the flow direction, which I do consider important. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - trailhead
Trials often overlap with other trails, fire roads (tracks) and may actually be tracks for most of the path until it turns off near the top of a peak or goes away from a restricted access zone. The Subashiri route on Mt Fuji is a pedestrian road, steps, trail, track, trail.. Etc as it overlaps with a bulldozer road for servicing the stations, and has concrete and stone steps in places. Every state park I have been in in California uses pieces of fire roads for parts of almost all routes, to the trail is partially partially path and partially track. I have never made a route relation yet, but as I understand it, to link those different parts together would require a route relation. Would making the entrance=trailhead part of that (or leisure=trailhead) part of that be incorrect? Or are we talking about two different things? Javbw On Apr 16, 2015, at 1:25 PM, Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com wrote: But I'd be willing to bet that most trails are not part of a network of other trails or a route but are stand-alone. The trails I once hiked in the Adirondack Mountains in New York State all have names and trailheads but, with a couple of exceptions, are not part of any route. I think the mixed approach is best. If a given trail is part of a larger system of trails, or the area where it begins has related amenities, then the relation idea makes sense. Otherwise, keeping it simple with a named trailhead node where the transition from highway to footway takes place will suffice. On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: On 14.04.2015 23:32, Gmail wrote: role=start is used for crosscountry ski routes relations. I like the idea to include trailheads as members of route relations. It's a more versatile approach than highway=trailhead. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting Shooting Range
That's true - because the proper tag for it was not created yet and this is a case of tagging for the renderer. A sports center may have an indoor range in a larger building, or the outdoor sports center is not mapped fully. But if it is sport=archery + leisure=pitch it should be changed to leisure=range Again, hockey players or even paintballers in the outfit (and protection) are supposed to be on the pitch when playing. No one is supposed to be on 99% of the range when there is practicing going on. No one. If you are a contestant, you can't be in that area because you could be easily killed, let alone a bystander. This is why it is a range, and not a pitch. A range area outlined the place *where you can't be* during practice A pitch outlines the place *where you should be* during practice. Military has shooting range, not pitch for a reason. Having practiced archery and shooting at ranges with the Boy Scouts and other private places (briefly), the facilities, rules, and no-mans land rules of the ranges are **exactly** the same. Ranges are a place to safely practice a sport. The basic understanding that this area is safe for me to propel deadly projectiles meant to impale people and things because access is restricted is quite different than any other sport - so they have a different name for the facility, and not marking/rendering ranges different than pitches would be a safety issue. They should be rendered differently and tagged differently from pitches. Having a range for guns and a pitch for archery makes no sense. Javbw On Apr 13, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com wrote: I get your, er, point, although I don't think you would want to randomly wander into a batting cage or hockey rink in the middle of practice either. :) The bigger issue is there are over 1300 sport=archery tags, and both on the wiki and in actual usage, leisure=pitch (or sports_centre) is what's used with them, not range. Maybe there's a distinction one could make for range, but frankly, archery is the tag that'll let people know there are likely to be arrows flying around. On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 7:19 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: I've usually seen leisure=pitch used with archery. Scanning through the few features tagged with leisure=range, they appear to all be shooting ranges. The only big difference between them is the noise level and the length of the projectile. They both have designated stands for the person, the no-mans land of the range, targets of various forms, and some kind of projectile containment system (high walls, steel plate, dirt bank, etc). There are quite a few archery ranges (on school grounds) here in Japan, and I sure as hell never want to accidentally go on one thinking it is a pitch. A 3m long traditional bow looks like it could put a practice arrow through my body. It has the word range in its title for a reason. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting Shooting Range
I've usually seen leisure=pitch used with archery. Scanning through the few features tagged with leisure=range, they appear to all be shooting ranges. The only big difference between them is the noise level and the length of the projectile. They both have designated stands for the person, the no-mans land of the range, targets of various forms, and some kind of projectile containment system (high walls, steel plate, dirt bank, etc). There are quite a few archery ranges (on school grounds) here in Japan, and I sure as hell never want to accidentally go on one thinking it is a pitch. A 3m long traditional bow looks like it could put a practice arrow through my body. It has the word range in its title for a reason. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - trailhead
Maybe this is a good value for entrance? Or is entrance only for buildings and related structures? Entrance=trailhead? Also, as I understand it, a trailhead can be the name of an area at the beginning for a route (with parking and other amenities) - or do we cant to make a new area as well - hiking station? Many routes have stations (like Mount Fuji) which are known points, such as the area around a node that should be labeled as a trailhead. I guess what I'm asking is, is the trailhead node related to the beginning of the trail and the area that surrounds some trailheads (formal or informal parking, road turnouts, information signs, amenities provided by a park only connected to a trailhead, it can that idea of amenities provided at an important part of a trail be expanded to include named spots (crossings, stations) elsewhere on the trail? Right now I'm using locality for stations. Maybe putting them into some kind of format that goes with paths and trailheads is a good idea. Javbw On Apr 13, 2015, at 7:12 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: If this is a point then it should only apply to a node. You have indicated tags of information=board, guidepost .. those should be used with the tag tourist=information ... Note .. Relations can include the trailhead node as an element ... but the relation should not include trailhead in its properties. Thus not part of a relationship property. On 13/04/2015 7:22 AM, Brandon Knight wrote: Hello, A trailhead can most simply be defined as the point at which a trail begins. My proposal aims to seek approval for the mapping and tagging of trailheads as nodes, ways, areas, or relations. Please see the proposal for further information. Comments and suggestions are welcome here or in the Discussion page. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead Thank you, Brandon Knight geobrando ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting Shooting Range
There are archery ranges as well - do we want to follow the pitch model and have it defined by sport Leisure=range Sport=archery / sport=archery Or Leisure=archery_range Leisure=shooting_range ? FYI, these can be completely indoor facilities, so you should be able to put them on building=yes Javbw On Apr 13, 2015, at 5:43 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: +1 shooting=range looks uncompatible with anything I've seen. A tag that naturally comes to mind is leisure=shooting_range. There are onla 6 of those, compared to 145 shooting=range, but I think that tag is bad enough to deprecate it. Janko ned, 12. tra 2015. 18:17 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de je napisao: I had already looked at this in the past and stumbled on it again with paintball today. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dshooting What's the best way to tag a shooting range? shooting=range make no sense to me. When sport= isn't a physical tag then how can a subtag be one? So shouldn't this rather be used for the type of weapon or a specific shooting sport? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting Shooting Range
I would tag sport=shooting as an area for preference .. that being the physical area where the shooting takes place. It should be used with some other tag .. say leisure=pitch? Pity the wiki does not specify it! Usually we have names for the area where things take place (pitch, track, pool) and the sport (sport=*) A range is one of those places. Usually there are no mixed ranges (archery and rifles, etc) are separate So leisure=range + sport=archery for an archery range or sport=shooting for a shooting range. Paintball is not played on a range. It is played in an area where just players are allowed during play - like a pitch. So shouldn't this rather be used for the type of weapon or a specific shooting sport? I think shooting=range is not correct .. maybe shooting=gun to signify the type of shooting ... compared to arrow, crossbow, cannon ... Icons can follow the sport=* tag, as it does for other sports, right? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Paintball
On Apr 13, 2015, at 1:01 AM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Question is if we should to some retagging with shooting=paintball We don't have basketball=soccer, so I think it should be retagged. ^_^ Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting Shooting Range
Leisure=range Sport=* Any place where you setup targets to practice marksmanship (with possibility of death if entered) should be a range. But maybe they are tying to pattern it after golf where the facilities and greens and whatnot are tagged as golf=* ~~~ Paintball would be... More similar to a pitch, as it is a team sports area, often setup with man made barriers for play. Some are large wild areas, but is a designated area with a border for play, So it should be leisure=pitch+sport=paintball Barrier=wall, log, stone and natural=wood can be used to micro-map a permanent pitch. Javbw On Apr 13, 2015, at 1:15 AM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: I had already looked at this in the past and stumbled on it again with paintball today. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dshooting What's the best way to tag a shooting range? shooting=range make no sense to me. When sport= isn't a physical tag then how can a subtag be one? So shouldn't this rather be used for the type of weapon or a specific shooting sport? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Straw pole Temperature=objective default unit?
If you are using a virtual keyboard on a touch-screen device, there is usually one or more panels of punctuation characters, including the degree symbol. Incidentally, this is a straw poll (nonbinding vote), not a straw pole (a bundle of straw serving as a pole). On April 9, 2015 7:18:09 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 09.04.2015 um 09:47 schrieb Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com: Given the difficulty of finding the degree symbol on a normal keyboard this depends on the language, on a German keyboard you get it easily. No idea about other languages besides Italian, which is broken also for many other symbols ;-) cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Straw pole Temperature=objective default unit?
If it's 42 f, you'd go into hypothermia almost instantly. =} Assuming c unless explicit should be enough for mapping. Javbw On Apr 12, 2015, at 8:23 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/04/2015 4:50 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: On 9 April 2015 at 01:52, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Say a mapper tags temperature=42 Under what circumstances would such a tag be used. How would we know that the actual temperature is not 41 or 43? You want more detail? Say a mapper tags amenity=swimingpool temperature=42 Is that enough detail? The question is is the 42 taken as degrees Celsius or rejected as an error Presently 'degrees Celsius' is a little ahead of ' rejection' . Accuracy? really? in OSM? No dimension entry into OSM includes any statement of accuracy ... If you want a full statement of 'accuracy' it would have to be a statement of uncertainty with level of confidence and coverage factor. No .. you don't want to go there!! No measurement is 'error free'. They all have some uncertainty .. Reference http://kcdb.bipm.org/appendixC/search.asp?service=All For example NIST claim, in thermometry, for a liquid in glass thermometer at 'normal' temperatures their best uncertainty is 0.02 K (neglecting any contribution by the thermometer being calibrated). Note : BIPM uncertainties are adjusted for 95% level of confidence and approximately a coverage factor of 2. No .. you don't want to go to statements of errors and accuracy .. Instead .. what would a 'reasonable person' expect for such a statement of 'the temperature is 42 °C'? Most would readily accept ±1°C given the resolution of the statement. They may even accept ±2°C .. but not ±10°C. What would be acceptable for a statement of 'width is 1 metre' given in OSM on a path? Why am I wasting time on such a question? Because Andy asked. Suggest you do some research on it Andy. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New values for entrance=
Sent from my iPhone On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:39 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: ...but when there is a tag explicitly telling that the entrance is of a staircase type then I'd expect it not to be the main entrance (otherwise it would have been tagged as main, I'd guess) +1 Main is the most important entrance tag value, routing wise, IMO. Everything else is defining where or where not to enter - usually so it is not confused with main. I have been super busy, so I haven't had a chance to make an entrance value set for you guys to review yet. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New values for entrance=
The most common door to be mapped is a fire door (often signed emergency exit in America), and some kind of escape, like access from underground to street level for a subway evacuation. Japan has a lot of elevated motorways on pillars, with noise walls, so essentially you're driving in a giant elevated tube. They sign emergency exits from the road down to street level, like a train system. Both of those seem covered by entrance=emergency currently. But a hospital has the emergency entrance - would we want a special tag for a hospital's emergency entrance? (This is often quite different from the main entrance) It might be very very useful to map the emergency entrance strongly at high zooms. If so, we need to separate emergency_exit from emergency, as I guess a hospital has both kinds of exits. Javbw On Apr 9, 2015, at 6:22 PM, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: W dniu 09.04.2015 3:42, Bryce Nesbitt napisał(a): On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:54 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: what about exits? Why entrance=exit of course :-). We already have 1793 of it. =} I would rather choose one of these: 1. entrance=emergency (3318 occurrences - clear winner as of now) 2. entrance=emergency_exit (no single one in the wild) 3. entrance=escape (as in highway=escape; 0 occurrences) or even: 4. exit=emergency (1) 5. exit=escape (0) -- Piaseczno Miasto Wąskotorowe ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
