Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

[Ben Ritter]

> The first crux as I see it is that the OSM community doesn't listen. It
is unable to hear values other than some abstract academic notion of map
purity.

Adam, with respect, I cannot agree with this evaluation of this discussion.
We have spent real time discussing how to represent the NPWS values in an
ongoing way within OSM. We then resolved a solution for incorporating this
kind of unsound edit: Verify that the tracks still physically exist,
restore and tag with `access=no` and `informal=yes`. Our solution involves
extra work to accommodate the atypical workflow of NPWS deleting paths as a
means of communicating their updated access rights. And I think it is fair
to say that we--as a community--are happy to do this because of the values
communicated here.

For me, and I suspect for the other OSMers here, the value is not "some
abstract academic notion", it is my practical experience of using OSM data.
When I see a bush track with dilapidated signage, or car tracks that might
be someone's driveway, I pull out OSMAnd to see if I can learn about it. If
the track is absent that means "not mapped yet" and if it has pink dots on
it, it's private or forbidden.

> What about taking the approach "ok land managers what can we do to help
you?" And if the answer is "stop reverting parks service  edits", then
respect that ...

This approach that you propose is not one of communicating towards a shared
understanding, it is for one party to obey the decree of the other. "stop
reverting parks service edits" is a solution concocted without
consideration of the nuances of OSM that have been raised here, which was a
good start to this discussion, but is not a conclusion that is sensitive to
the OSM values raised here. As you have reiterated it, let me reiterate
that it is not even possible for us to sustainable enact such a solution
that is counter to the standard operation of OSM: the handful of mappers
who have stuck through this conversation will know what we decide, but the
other ~100 active australian mappers
<https://osmstats.neis-one.org/?item=countries=Australia=23-1-2024>
on any given day will continue to apply the standard practice, causing the
problem to pop up again and again.

Anyway, on to the constructive part of the discussion:

---

*Which publications are distributing maps of the areas in question that are
encouraging use of paths tagged with `access=no`?* I am interested in
collecting any and all examples.

This will help to make the real-world damage that "may occur" less abstract
and more concrete, but more importantly, I am interested in following up
with every such publication to get them to stop. To your question Adam,
those that are publishing incorrect (by long-standing consensus)
interpretations of the database are the ones responsible for any damage
being caused.

Regards,
Ben

On Fri, 1 Mar 2024 at 12:57, Tom Brennan  wrote:

> I can agree with the last sentence, but not much else.
>
> I think most of the people in this thread genuinely want to work with
> the various parks services to get OSM solutions that work for both parks
> and the OSM community.
>
> We don't currently have any good communication channels.
>
> If we can get the right lines of communication - which is difficult when
> you have OSM and NPWS being both distributed and bureaucratic in their
> own ways - I'm confident that we will be able to get outcomes that
> everyone is happy with.
>
> Tom
> 
> Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
> Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
>
> On 29/02/2024 10:42 pm, Adam Steer wrote:
> > Thanks Tony.
> >
> > The first crux as I see it is that the OSM community doesn't listen. It
> is
> > unable to hear values other than some abstract academic notion of map
> > purity.
> >
> > The second crux is that OSM mappers are not responsible or accountable
> for
> > anything. So taking the view that "everyone should come to OSM and
> justify
> > themselves" is pretty weird and backwards.
> >
> > What about taking the approach "ok land managers what can we do to help
> > you?" And if the answer is "stop reverting parks service  edits", then
> > respect that ...
> >
> > A better map isn't one with all the everything. It's one made
> respectfully
> > and responsibly.
> >
> >
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Re: [talk-au] OSM - NSW NPWS liaison

[Ben Kelley]

In the context of the tracks, there is always the risk that if you delete
something that you don't think should be there, that someone else re-maps
it because they see it in the aerial photo. (As we discussed.)

I guess the best is that we could detail a preferred approach (e.g. in
Australian tagging guidelines). I think it's clear that there are a number
of views on this though.

Then at least if something happens that differs from the preferred
approach, it makes it clearer whether a revert is justified.

 - Ben.


On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 14:57, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> DWG have received a
> "*Request for a Liaison Officer*:
> To enhance the accuracy of OpenStreetMap data pertaining to the NSW
> National Parks and Wildlife Service"
>
> This has come up in regard to tracks that they say they have previously
> requested be deleted (I'm contacting them to confirm just which?)
>
> What would be the easiest way for them to contact us with questions like
> this - here / Forum / Discord?
>
> Question posed in all three places
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

[Ben Ritter]

I think we can assist environmental maintenance without compromising the
ground truth value. They are not actually in conflict with each other.

In fact, I think it is *more helpful* to keep the highway features with the
addition of the access tag and/or the lifecycle prefix.

Many OSM users are used to incomplete data, so if they saw an OSM map which
didn't include tracks that they observe in the wild, they would likely
assume the data is missing, not that there is a restriction on it.

With the aim of ensuring as many maps as possible indicate the closure, the
existing lifecycle tag should be used, which is
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:disused:highway, instead of a new
one.

Anyone publishing maps using OSM data while ignoring the access tag is
being reckless, and should stop it. Deleting those features is not a
solution in any specific case (this thread is case in point), or in the
long term for the reasons above.

Cheers,
Ben

On Sun, 8 Oct 2023, 4:11 pm Ian Sergeant,  wrote:

> I understand what you would like the mission statement to be.
>
> But right now, it's clear that we value ground truth.
>
> If our mission is to change that should be a wider discussion.
>
> I still don't see where the authority comes from to delete or revert a
> genuine ground feature that someone has mapped in good faith.
>
> We have tags to handle this scenario.
>
> Ian
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 8, 2023, 6:34 PM  wrote:
>
>> Yes Ewen, I agree
>>
>> The OSM mission statement is at
>> https://osmfoundation.org/wiki/Mission_Statement
>>
>> I would like to see it also include something like Google's "don’t be
>> evil"*
>> Or doctors' "first, do no harm" or "primum non nocere"
>>
>> Tony Forster
>>
>>
>> * Google changed "don’t be evil" to “do the right thing† in 2015
>> and finally dropped it in 2018
>>
>> https://gizmodo.com/google-removes-nearly-all-mentions-of-dont-be-evil-from-1826153393
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> >   A fantastic thread and I feel it is important to assist those
>> protecting
>> > the environment over ground truth mapping.
>> >
>> >  On lord Howe Island, currently over 70% of the island is off-limits
>> for an
>> > outbreak of Myrtle Rust with the Island Board stating "The rust has the
>> > potential to change the way our mountains and forest looks, it may alter
>> > food webs and ecology, and potentially affect world heritage values,".
>> In
>> > Western Australia, there is Phytophthora (dieback), now prevalent in the
>> > Stirling Ranges which is mainly carried long distances by human
>> activity.
>> > In these and other more local instances,we should endeavour to assist
>> > protection.
>> >
>> > I feel the  lifecycle prefixes and access=no in most instances however
>> it
>> > might be better to remove all highway tagging other than a note to
>> protect
>> > fragile ecology so that no downstream map accidentally maps these.
>> >
>> > Ewen
>> >
>> > On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 at 23:33, Mark Pulley  wrote:
>> >
>> >> A brief summary of the options for this type of situation (not just
>> this
>> >> particular edit, but similar edits in the past and probably future):
>> >>
>> >> 1. Revert the change sets (in the absence of more information)
>> >> 2. Partial revert, with a change in tags
>> >> 3. Leave the deletion as it is.
>> >>
>> >> For this particular example, the results would be:
>> >> 1. Full revert - way will be marked informal=yes, but without access
>> tags
>> >> 2. Partial revert - could add access=no, or
>> >> alternatively abandoned:highway=* or disused:highway=*
>> >> 3. No reversion
>> >>
>> >> So far I count 5 people in favour of reversion, and 2 or 3 against (I
>> >> wasn?t sure about the third!)
>> >>
>> >> Here?s my proposal:
>> >> Partial revert of ways
>> >> Way 29415025 - leave this deleted (as it was difficult to find at my
>> >> survey in early 2022)
>> >> Way 1052666246 - access to an informal lookout - leave this deleted
>> >> Other two ways 29415022 and 630040313 reverted with addition of
>> access=no
>> >> (as NWPS don?t want people going there), and probably a note=* tag to
>> >> describe the reason for the access tag
>> >> (Possibly disused:highway=* as an alternative - this will prevent it
>> >> appearing on the map. Un

Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

[Ben Ritter]

(I'm a little late to this thread, but wanted to add my two cents.) I agree
with Tom's take and have commented below:

On Mon, 25 Sept 2023, 8:26 am Tom Brennan,  wrote:

> Tricky one.
>
> I have sympathy for Land Managers. There can be many reasons why they
> don't want people visiting a place, and why they don't want tracks on a
> map which might encourage it.
>
> But simply deleting the tracks from OSM is not the best way to go about
> it unless the "tracks" were simply bushbashing routes, and were never
> real tracks in the first place.
>
> As others have said, it just makes it likely that the track will be
> added as a new track at a later date, assuming it does exist on the ground.
>
> Some basic signage at the trackhead, and formal closure (announcement on
> the NPWS alerts page) would be enough to set the various tags so that it
> shouldn't appear on downstream maps.
>

I agree with all of this. If the track exists on the ground, something
should exist in OSM.

This situation is not a novel one that requires a new tag prefix, I think
it should be represented with:

   - highway=* because it is clearly a track to a surveyor
   - informal=yes because it is not maintained like the other paths
   - access=no because the relevant authority says so

It sounds like the access=no tag is less clearly justified, but any signage
at the site is justification enough, even if it is poorly maintained or
vandalised: the access tag is describing policy, not practical use. I would
encourage the managers to ensure signage is maintained, because many people
won't be using OSM as their source of truth!

I think the OSM edits and email discussions also serve as justification for
the access=no tag. A publicly posted notice would be ideal, so that it can
be referenced as a source.

If there are downstream maps that are not representing the access
restriction, then we should put pressure on them to make use of the access
tag. It is a very established tag, and it is the correct solution for many
sensitive situations like this, including private property, etc.

Finally, it would be somewhat helpful to mention in the description=* tag
that use of the track is discouraged/banned for rehabilitation.
Justification for reinstating the OSM features could also be documented in
the notes=* tag to minimise the risk of this discussion coming up again.

Cheers,
Ben

>
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Re: [talk-au] Possible mechanical edit of address names

[Ben Ritter]

Doing small targeted mechanical edits like this sounds like a good workflow
to me.

My recommendation would be to structure the program in two steps:
1. The first script calculates all of the changes that it wants to make,
and writes it to CSV, with all of the details required for step 2.
2. The second script reads the CSV and prepares the edit.

The primary benefit is that you can inspect the proposed edits in Excel and
post them on a wiki page for others to see.

It is also a sensible architecture. You can write one simple script to find
`street` -> `Street`, etc. changes and confidently submit those edits with
a quick glance. And you can also write a fancy script that uses Overpass to
find the closest similarly named street or something like that, and inspect
the proposed changes much more closely, and simply delete all the
suspicious ones. It keeps the two independent tasks insulated from each
other with the CSV. It's a perfect example of a *modular* design.

Cheers,
Ben

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 at 16:56, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> HI
>
> I have jumped thegun here.
>
> Now looking at the data in JOSM.
>
> Total 3,814 individual addresses but
>
> The streets are only 221 so many of these are simply repartitions in the
> same street - much easier to deal with.
>
> I may simply do these manually after all. It was only the initial
> individual item numbers that frightened me. But 221 is fine.
>
>
> Note: There are more of these 'errors' I am simply picking the ones I
> can fix without resorting to the wiki for detail. Once these are done
> I'll look at the other 'errors'. While the map maker reports these
> 'errors' some of them to my human eye look to be fine... so I am not
> 'correcting' them all.
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Ben Ritter]

The intersection in question is quite new, so I am not surprised that there
are cache issues as you guys have identified. Each routing engine will
ingest new OSM data on its own schedule.

One thing that I noticed with the spurious "at the fork, turn right onto
Albany Hwy" instructions in the original OSMR link
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_car=-34.9226%2C117.7915%3B-34.9670%2C117.8239#map=16/-34.9652/117.8223>,
is the lack of `_link` roads. I would expect the on- and off-ramps to be
tagged as `highway=trunk_link`. I suspect the routing engines are expecting
the same, and therefore seeing the Menang Dr slip road
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1077469017> as a legitimate fork in the
highway.

The latest incorrect directions with "turn sharp left" are probably the
result of missing turn restriction relations
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction>. I would expect
some "no_u_turn" restrictions where slip roads join the two-way hwy way.
For example, https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1077469012. Some routing
engines will infer this from the angle of the ways, but not all of them.

Cheers,
Ben

On Fri, 9 Jun 2023 at 03:39,  wrote:

> Ian
> Looking again at the routing:
>
>  1. Continue onto Menang Drive20m
>  2. Keep right onto Menang Drive130m
>  3. Turn sharp left onto Albany Highway20m
>  4. Turn sharp right onto Menang Drive160m
>  5. Arrive at destination
>
> Its like its working partially off an old cache:
>
> 2. Keep right onto Menang Drive130m
> It thinks it can get on to Menang Dve, it used to be able, now its
> 130m further east
>
> 4. Turn sharp right onto Menang Drive160m
> it used to be able, now its 160m of off road driving
>
> The routing engines work off the ways not the tiles don't they? Can
> the router be working off a cached set of ways?
>
> Tony
>
> > Yes Ian
> > I think you are right. It was showing the cached copy even now with the
> > kink. I just refreshed it. The routing is still wrong
> >
> >   1. Continue onto Menang Drive   20m
> >   2. Keep right onto Menang Drive 130m
> >   3. Turn sharp left onto Albany Highway  20m
> >   4. Turn sharp right onto Menang Drive   160m
> >   5. Arrive at destination
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >> Do you mean where Menang Drv curls around and meets Albany Hwy at a
> >> T-junction?  If so, I took the kink out yesterday (?) - maybe the
> renderer
> >> hasn't caught-up with the change when you looked at it ??
> >>
> >> Ian
> >>
> >>> Hi
> >>> Sorry if this is my misunderstanding but it seems that the same mistake
> >> that is made by the routers is being made by some tile >rendering
> engines
> >> too. The standard tile has a kink at the end of Menang Drive
> (1077469021)
> >> which is not there. The >cycleOSM tile renderer does not do this.
> Likewise
> >> the junction of Menang Drive
> >>> (1077469008) is shifted NW by the Standard tile renderer but not the
> >> CycleOSM tile renderer.
> >>> Tony
> >>
> >>
> >>
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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Ben Kelley]

I don't know what causes it, but you can see the same problem with OSMR:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_car=-34.9226%2C117.7915%3B-34.9670%2C117.8239#map=17/-34.96524/117.82097

 - Ben.
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Re: [talk-au] Dual naming in NSW

[Ben Ritter]

I agree that in places where a joint name is in use, that should be
documented as `name=Booraghee / Bradleys Head`as. From a data perspective,
I think it is also useful to know that the english called it (in english
spelling) `name:en=Bradleys Head` and the locals called it (in local
romanised spelling) `name:aus=Booraghee`.

I have no great understanding of the languages involved, but I want to see
it as "Booraghee / Bradleys Head" on most maps (because that's part of our
cultural style, as documented in the quoted policy). On the other hand,
when I hook up a routing text-to-speech engine, I'm going to have a much
better time pronouncing the spelling of `name:en` and `name:aus`. Even
better after someone in the know replaces the vague and non-specific `:aus`
form with the actual language(s).

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 09:27, Little Maps  wrote:

> This may depend on the specific place but in many places I believe Phil’s
> interpretation is correct and Andrew’s is inappropriate. Many places and
> reserves now have joint management or co-ownership, and dual/joint names.
> Joint names are not alternative names. John Roberts-Smith is John
> Roberts-Smith. He is not John Roberts and/or alt-name John Smith. The Rock
> Nature Reserve / Kengal Aboriginal Place is a legislated reserve. This is
> the legislated name, as described in the management plan and signposted on
> all new signs. Since OSM maps what is on the ground, we should include the
> entire joint name in the one name tag. We are not listing alternatives, we
> are presenting the entire, signposted, legal name in the one tag.
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Re: [talk-au] Publishing data as vector tiles/something else

[Ben Ritter]

I recently came across Tippecanoe, which is a tool that outputs "Mapbox
Vector Tile Specification" tiles from other formats, with a focus on large
datasets and sensible level-of-detail handling. I haven't used it myself,
but it looks like it might be useful here. Maybe converting your data to
.mbtiles, then generating a "TMS folder" from that (which I imagine is
possible).

https://github.com/felt/tippecanoe
https://github.com/mapbox/awesome-vector-tiles

I hope those leads help you out. I'd be interested to hear what solution
you settle on!

Cheers,
Ben

On Wed, 10 May 2023 at 06:55, Adam Steer  wrote:

> Hiya
>
> I have about a gigabyte (maybe 2) of vector data for high resolution
> terrain classifications and features (snow safety related) that I want to
> publish in a way that leaflet/openlayers/cesium based apps can ingest it.
>
> I also want it to be static - bare http access without a server in the way.
>
> ...and I don't want to restrict access with a paywall, I want people to
> play with it and figure out if it is useful (donations are always welcome!)
>
> Currently it's all in .gpkg
>
> What's the current state of the art in static, over-http vector delivery
> for web apps (or to qgis) that isn't over-fluffy ? (Geojson for example
> blows the size out by a lot). Links to how-to's welcome...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
>
> --
> Dr Adam Steer
> https://iamadamsteer.com
>
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Tagging Culverts on Roads

[Ben Ritter]

Hi All,

I don't have any skin in the game of waterways or infrastructure ids, but I
would like to offer my perspective as a software developer working with
road networks in osm2streets <https://github.com/a-b-street/osm2streets>.

First of all, these proprietary S*tructure Numbers* are not a perfect fit
for inclusion in OSM, unless they are actually marked on the culverts
themselves in the real world. This is because of the principle of
Verifiability <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability>. That
being said, I find it hard to discourage any local community from
maintaining their own clear and consistent tags if it doesn't increase the
burden on anyone else.

The inconvenient fact here is that `highway=*` ways describe the navigable
road surfaces with a focus on routability rather than describing the road
as a whole. For instance, when there is a physical median dividing a road,
the road is split into two ways because from a routability perspective, the
two sides of the road are unrelated. The decision to connect a `highway`
feature to some other feature is made based on the routing connectivity
between them, even at the expense of spatial correctness. (This is
certainly a pain in the arse for a lot of use-cases, but it's the
convention that exists, and in my opinion is a reasonable compromise given
the competing requirements.) Another example: traffic lights exist as nodes
on the `highway` because they are relevant to someone navigating along that
portion of roadway. Same with `surface`, `maxweight` and `maxwidth` tags,
etc.

So, the road infrastructure is represented not just by the `highway`, but
by other OSM features too, like seperate `kerb=*` nodes and ways,
`man_made=bridge` areas, etc.

In my view, it would not be appropriate to tag properties of a culvert on a
`highway=*` way. A node on the way would not be appropriate either, because
the culvert is not a feature of the driving surface. Also, such a node
would ideally be placed right where the culvert crosses the road, but
because the culvert and the road should not be connected (due to the
routing connectivity constraint), the approach would be very fiddly and
error prone.

With all that in mind, I think an appropriately namespaced `ref` tag on the
`tunnel=culvert` itself would be appropriate (assuming proper
licensing and importing
procedures <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines>).

I like working within the `ref:AU` namespace to signify to the global
community that the Australian community has defined the tag. After that, I
agree that it should be kept simple with an identifier of the
issuing authority. That identifier shouldn't have more colons in it,
because they signify another level of the tag hierarchy. Given that the DoT
has just renamed to "Department of Transport and Planning"
<https://dtp.vic.gov.au/about/governance> I would propose

ref:AU:vic_dtp=SN1234


I share your disappointment with the difficulty in working with features
associated with roads like this. To me, this feels like the street address
case. "Street" is in the name, but the addresses aren't directly connected
with the road features. This is why I am contributing to osm2streets,
because I want a simple way to work with data at a "road" level, instead of
the "OSM feature" level.

Though we are not there yet, associating things like culverts with the
roads they cross - in the way you desire - is in scope for osm2streets. I
would love to discuss this use case over on the github forum
<https://github.com/a-b-street/osm2streets/discussions>. Or hear of any
good solutions that people out there are using!

Cheers,
Ben

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 08:03, Andrew Davidson  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 5:21 PM Andrew Hughes  wrote:
> > For the structure number, I like the look of...
> >
> > ref:AU:VIC:DOT:SN=SN12345
> >
>
> Does it really need to be that complicated? How many different systems
> of culvert references are there in Victoria. I'd be happy with just
> ref=* on the culvert.
>
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Re: [talk-au] What are the best practices for mass updating cycle paths?

[Ben Kelley]

Practically, using this data would be difficult I think.

Partly because there is a lot of stuff already mapped. The other problem 
is that I have found Councils' web sites are a bit optimistic about how 
much of their planned cycling infrastructure actually exists. It's hard 
to know what is "on the ground" from their data sets.


 - Ben.


On 7/2/2023 10:40 am, fors...@ozonline.com.au wrote:

Hi
Looking further City of Sydney Data Hub is licenced CC By 4.0 but OSM 
has been waiting on the waiver since 2020 "CC BY 4.0 - waiver sent 
01/12/2020, "considering your request" on 03/12/2020"


The licence for the cycle network data links to 2 logos, a CC by 4.0 
logo and a "Open Data" logo which I can only find 2 other occurrences 
of in the net and no definitions.


Tony


Hi
First check that its listed at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Sources
If not ykou probably need to get them to sign a release
Tony


Hi all,

I have been looking into cycle paths data in OSM and found that Sydney
doesn't seem to have this dataset:
https://data.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/datasets/cityofsydney::cycle-network/explore 



This data is focused on the city centre. Are there any 
recommendations on
how I should get about this, or if there are any best practices or 
guidance

when uploading datasets from official sources?





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Re: [talk-au] Tagging Trucks (hgv) "Use low gears"

[Ben Kelley]

Just one thought on this:

The "use low gears" it not itself the hazard. It is the steep hill that is
the hazard (where the mitigation strategy for HGVs is to use low gears.
Same for rollover/sharp bend.

 - Ben


On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 10:38, Andrew Hughes  wrote:

> Thank You Greame,
>
> The  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:hazard#Traffic_hazards tag
> seems very appropriate but in my mind, needs a :hgv namespace.
>
> still not sure on the actual values but...tag/values I would appreciate
> feedback on:
>
> hazard:hgv=Use low gears
> hazard:hgv=Long Steep Descent
> hazard:hgv=Use low gears;Long Steep Descent
>
>
> Another example I would appreciate feedback  are QLD "Tilting Truck
> signs": https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/signs/warning
>
> hazard:hgv=Tilting
> hazard:hgv=High Risk Rollover
> hazard:hgv= ?
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrew
>
>
>
> On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 at 11:30, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 at 10:40, Andrew Hughes  wrote:
>>
>>> There are other signage like "No Engine Breaking", could anyone propose
>>> a convention inline with the above that could be extended for such
>>> additional signage?
>>>
>>
>> Answering in reverse!
>>
>> I thought I remembered something about "quiet zones" for traffic, so did
>> some searching & found:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:railway%3Dlevel_crossing#Quiet_zones,
>> but which has apparently never been used.
>>
>> Also found
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:designation#Quiet_lanes
>>
>> The same idea could possibly be used as designation=quiet_zone, possibly
>> with quiet_zone=hgv?
>>
>> Can anyone suggest the most appropriate way to take ways where the road
>>> is signed with "Use Low Gears"?
>>>
>>
>> & maybe the same concept as designation=low_gears?
>>
>> That one could even come in under
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:hazard#Traffic_hazards as
>> hazard=low_gear_required?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [talk-au] 'Named' EV chargers

[Ben Kelley]

My thoughts:

I wouldn't remove the names. It's a big call to say that this thing
definitely does not have a name, when someone else says it does, especially
if 50% have a name.

 - Ben.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 14:24, Phil Wyatt  wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> Thoughts on 'named' EV chargers? Around 50% of chargers in Oz have some
> 'name'.
>
>
>
> Most look to be adding the either the location or name of the operator etc
> (ie Freds Shop, XYZ carpark, Tesla supercharger etc), I suspect so it gets
> rendered on the map.
>
>
>
> Are folks happy if I remove the names. I will ensure that no details are
> lost by making sure any operator or network details gets added to the
> correct tags.
>
>
>
> (I will also post to Oceania Forum and Discord)
>
>
>
> [Overpass query](https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1p4u)
>
>
>
> Cheers - Phil
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Changing building levels elevator to description elevator shell

[Ben Ritter]

>
> building:levels=2
>
> That would mean it only is on building level 2.. and it would not go from
> another building level.
>

That's not right, `building:levels` does describes the number of levels
that a building has: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building:levels
You're thinking of `level`, as in `highway=elevator`, `level=0;1`. 42% of
`highway=elevator`s also have `level=*`:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/highway=elevator#combinations

> indoor=room
>
> That would mean it is within a larger building...
>

A room is a room whether it is attached to other rooms or not...
`indoor=room` seems completely reasonable to me.

`room=elevator` (1000 total
<https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/room=elevator>) and
`building:part=elevator` (2500 total
<https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/building:part=elevator>) are both
pretty rare tags, but they are both clear and fit in with their
respective schemes, so either is a welcome contribution.

Cheers,
Ben
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Re: [talk-au] Cycle permissions by a user

[Ben Kelley]

This very much differs by state.

In NSW by default it is not allowed (unless signpost as a shared path). I
assume Victoria is the same.

   - Ben.

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On Sat, 8 Oct 2022, 09:21 Graeme Fitzpatrick,  wrote:

>
> So, it would appear that officially, footpaths can be used for cycling!
>
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Oz tagging of speed cameras

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

This page describes what to do if you are only mapping the camera (map it
on the highway)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dspeed_camera

This page describes what to do if you want to map both the device (e.g. on
the footpath), and also the point on the road where the camera enforces the
speed limit https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:enforcement

 - Ben.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 at 14:51, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Just had a message come through OSM (think it may have been sent to
> multiple people?) concerning mapping speed cameras.
>
> I've added a number of them from Notes, & have always added them as a
> Speed Camera node on the actual camera location usually visible on the
> footpath.
>
> The message was to tell me that "every single speed camera in South
> Australia is already on the map" & can be viewed on OT, that "they are
> placed on the roads that they target exactly like traffic lights are
> placed. This is a standard that is agreed upon in the Australian OSM
> community", & that they've "deleted all the duplicate ones that you have
> added".
>
> One of the cameras that I'd added was here
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=8654391473#map=20/-34.96839/138.55505
> & I'd mapped it where the camera box is visible on the footpath, but they
> have it on the actual road marking near the traffic lights. Which is right?
> I've just had a look at the guidelines & can't see any agreed standard for
> mapping them - do we have one?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

This is a national route, rather than a state route, so we don't have that
problem.

 - Ben.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 14:15, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 13:37, Ben Kelley  wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm guessing more than one state has an A40.
>>
>
> & how would we work "Highway 1", with its myriad of alternative
> designations & names?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_1_(Australia)
>
>  Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>

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Re: [talk-au] Adopting "AU" Prefix on Network tags

[Ben Kelley]

I think we'll need a state component in the network (for state roads).

I'm guessing more than one state has an A40.

ref=A40, network=AU won't be enough for that.

 - Ben.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 at 12:55, Dian Ågesson  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've cobbled together a draft model of how we could adopt the "AU" prefix
> within the network tags based on some of the issues raised in the previous
> thread.
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Diacritic/Proposed_Australian_Routes
>
> Would really appreciate your thoughts and opinions; tried to match the
> existing structure as closely as possible.
>
> Dian.
>
>

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Re: [talk-au] Surf Clubs & Lifesavers (Prv: Head or point on non-coastal land)

[Ben Kelley]

Note that the "C" part is for club in SLSC. The social part can be the
community around the volunteer life saving bit. e.g.
https://uminaslsc.org.au/

I agree that there are 2 parts though. The life saving part, and the
"clubhouse" that also has a bar & restaurant etc.

I would tag them as 2 nodes.

I think you could have the same issue for rowing clubs. There are a bunch
of people that do rowing, and have a boat shed, but there's also a
restaurant upstairs that you might want to visit even if you don't care for
rowing.

 - Ben.

On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 at 13:08, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 at 17:31, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have a similar difficulty with club=surf_life_saving,
>> emergency=lifesaver, lifesaver=base ... as that does not render. If put
>> on the building then the name of the club renders.. Having gone along the
>> coast of NSW and put them to nodes and entered a few more off the DCS Base
>> Map .. I am now going along and setting the details on the associated
>> building... sigh.
>
>
> Warin & I have discussed this topic recently on a changeset:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/123785819, & are sort of in two
> minds about it, so it's probably a good idea to put it out to get
> everybody's thoughts.
>
> I've recently finished tidying up & adding details right along the GC
> beaches, including all the Surf Clubs.
>
> As most of you would know, Surf Clubs & SLSCs are, more or less, two
> separate things - the Surf Club is the social side of things, which houses
> the bar, restaurant & Gaming Room, is usually open to the public, seven
> days/week, from morning till late at night, & is usually upstairs in the
> building.
>
> The actual SLSC / lifesavers are downstairs in that building, where the
> First Aid room is located, are usually only present Sa-Su 8-18 between Sept
> - April. They will frequently have a different contact number /
> website/page to the Surf Club.
>
> I have been tagging them like so:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/41751839, as a building named "xxx Surf
> Club", tagged as a club= surf_life_saving; together with a separate node
> for the SLSC: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5419450227, named "xxx
> SLSC", tagged as emergency=lifeguard + lifeguard=base +
> leisure=sports_centre (which I know is certainly not great, but is the only
> way I can find to render the name as lifeguard doesn't render :-(),
> together with their operating hours & contact details.
>
> So, what do we all think is the best option for having, & showing, 2 lots
> of info for the same premises?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Is addr:housenumber=2/20 likely to be valid?

[Ben Kelley]

Agreed.

In Australia "32A" refers to the street number.

(In the US, it is common that 32A means apartment A at street number 32, 
but not in Australia)


 - Ben.


On 13/7/2022 11:55 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:




On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 at 11:43, Benjamin Ceravolo 
 wrote:


I feel comfortable using the unit number as in the examples above.
But I feel it gets more in the weed's when it comes to letters,
such as "32a example Street" where I would probably not use the
unit tag. What are your thoughts?


No, 32A would just go as the house number.

The other awkward one is when the POI's address is Level 5 of This 
Building. Should we include that as part of the address, usually under 
Unit Number, or just as level=*?


 Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Is addr:housenumber=2/20 likely to be valid?

[Ben Kelley]

In answer to your question though, yes "1/50 Example St" notation is quite
common. It is probably well understood, although not universally used.

"Unit 1, 50 Example St" is also used, as is "U 1 50 Example St".

These would all be tagged as:
addr:unit=1
addr:housenumber=50

 - Ben.

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 at 03:51, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> I want to confirm report from
> https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/4196
>
> "In my area (and throughout built-up parts of Australian cities in general)
> it is not uncommon to encounter blocks of townhouses which share a
> primary address number but have distinct sub-address numbers.
>
> The complete address numbers of such houses are written in the format
> /, eg "1/50", "2/50", "3/50" for the first three houses
> sharing the primary address site "50 Example St"."
>
> Is it accurate? Is addr:housenumber=1/50 the standard and preferred
> solution in such cases?
>
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] definition of PSV (Public Service Vehicles) in Australia

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

I'm not sure if this helps, but a "bus lane" allows buses, taxis, 
bicycles and hire cars. A "bus only lane" allows only buses (not taxis 
and hire cars). (Neither allow rental cars.)


The psv wiki page suggests tagging individual types if necessary, but 
implies that a taxi is a PSV.


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:psv

I think you should probably put taxi=no for a "bus only lane" but not 
for a "bus lane".


IANAL but I'd guess that ride share services are not taxis in this context.

 - Ben.

On 27/6/2022 11:10 am, stevea wrote:
On Jun 26, 2022, at 5:57 PM, David Vidovic via Talk-au 
 wrote:
In regards to PSV (Public Service Vehicles), I understand this 
encompasses buses/coaches.


For a "bus only" way such as a bus bay, I see common tagging 
[access=no] + [psv=yes] used.


Does anyone know if a Taxi is considered a "public service vehicle" 
and therefore able use the busy bay way? Or does [access=no] 
inherently prevent this and it would need a separate [taxi=yes] tag?


It might be controversial to say so, but "taxis" meant (until maybe a 
decade ago, with the uprising of the Uber's of the world, which are, 
in many places, "not /de jure/ taxis" but are rather "/de facto/ 
taxis") a legally-regulated car-for-hire (not "rental, YOU drive," 
rather "hail one" (or solicit a ride for a fare at a taxi stand)).


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Re: [talk-au] Bicycle access tags in Victoria and other edits edits

[Ben Kelley]

Yes it is a longstanding issue: Is this shared path primarily a cycleway
where pedestrians are allowed (highway=cycleway, foot=designated) or
primarily a footpath ("mainly or exclusively for pedestrians") where
bicycles are allowed (highway=footway, bicycle=yes)?

In most circumstances the 2 are equivalent.

 - Ben Kelley.

On Wed, 18 May 2022 at 09:06, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> OSM never really had a good tag for truly shared foot/cycle paths, so it's
> been long standing practice to use highway=cycleway + foot=designated +
> bicycle=designated + segregated=no for shared paths. So by adding the
> foot=designated and segregated=no tags they change highway=cycleway from a
> bicycle only path to a true shared path.
>
> On Wed, 18 May 2022 at 07:29, Sebastian Azagra Flores via Talk-au <
> talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> Using the tag the tag highway = cycleway indicates that the route is
>> designated for bicycles only.
>> In Victoria, this is hardly the case as most paths are generally signed
>> as shared paths. I’ve yet to come across a dedicated cycle path during my
>> riding.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Sebastian
>>
>> On 17 May 2022, at 6:15 pm, Andrew Davidson  wrote:
>>
>> On 16/5/22 23:38, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au wrote:
>>
>> Can I please clarify "using highway=cycleway should only be used where
>> there are signs allowing"?
>>
>> That is how I've always used it in urban areas.
>>
>>
>> This would only apply in NSW/VIC. In other jurisdictions putting up signs
>> has become pointless because you can ride anywhere. In Canberra almost none
>> of the shared path system has explicit signage. I use cycleway to tag
>> "primary" routes and footway for "secondary" routes.
>>
>> So this would be a cycleway:
>>
>>
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Bike_path_in_Dickson%2C_Canberra%2C_Australia.jpg/576px-Bike_path_in_Dickson%2C_Canberra%2C_Australia.jpg
>>
>> and this is a footway:
>>
>>
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Footpath_in_Hackett%2C_Canberra%2C_Australia.jpg/576px-Footpath_in_Hackett%2C_Canberra%2C_Australia.jpg
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [talk-au] New OSM Discourse site: community.osm.org

[Ben Kelley]

I am a mailing list admin.

 - Ben.

On Tue, 3 May 2022 at 12:39, Sam Wilson  wrote:

> We need to specify who will be category moderators, in the new-category
> proposal.
>
> Who would like to be? Come to think of it, who are the mailing list admins?
>
>
> On 3/5/22 07:49, Andrew Davidson wrote:
> > On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Sam Wilson  wrote:
> >> And it sounds like there is a plan to at some point enable new posts via
> >> email, and when that time comes we will need a category (so it can have
> >> its own email address). Maybe we should go ahead and request an
> >> Australia category now?
> > Sounds like a good idea.
>
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Re: [talk-au] Licence mention for static mapon NiceLocal.com.au

[Ben Kelley]

It needs attribution for the static map as well I think.


 - Ben Kelley.

On 18/2/22 15:55, Stéphane Guillou via Talk-au wrote:

Hi all

I just sent a message to NiceLocal.com.au about the copyright 
requirements of OSM, because my understanding is that the static map 
on their shop profiles does not respect them.


For example: https://nicelocal.com.au/brisbane/shops/campus_news/

However, because clicking the map opens a slippy map that does mention 
the data source, I wanted to ask the list: does it follow OSM's 
requirements, or does it need to add an OSM mention next/over the 
static map as well?


Cheers


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Re: [talk-au] Strange e-mail address?

[Ben Kelley]

The unsusbscribe happens automatically after a few bounces.

On 31/1/22 11:44, Michael Collinson wrote:


Thanks Alex, Ben.  Looks specific to talk-au so talk-au admin (CC'd) 
needs to login and unsubscribe gmane. Not sure who that is.


Tom says:

Nothing to do with me - there's no global link to gmane or
any other archiving site.

As far as I know they just operate by subscribing to the list
like any other user so the list owner should be able to manage
the subscription.

Specifically I think gmane is long dead so they should likely
be unsubscribed, though if they're bouncing that will happen
automatically at some point.

On 31/1/22 11:21 am, Ben Kelley wrote:


The list processor sorts out bounces.

On 31/1/22 11:05, Alex Sims wrote:


Hi Michael,

Gname.org moved to gmane.io almost a year ago. So the subscription 
to x...@gname.org will never work again and should be deleted. A new 
link needs to be set to gmane.io so that the NNTP feed via 
news.gmane.io can work (if desired)


https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/category/gmane/ summary of the move

Alex

*From: *Michael Collinson 
*Date: *Monday, 31 January 2022 at 10:18 am
*To: *talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
*Subject: *Re: [talk-au] Strange e-mail address?

I just create lists so I have forwarded this to Tom Hughes in case 
he can help or elucidate.  /Mike


On 31/1/22 10:24 am, Alex Sims wrote:

HI Graeme,

When you send an email to the list, it then sends a copy to
subscribers which includes a mirror at gmane.org. For some
reason the copy at gname.org is bouncing back and you get the
bounce.

So the link between the mailing list and gmane needs fixing, a
job for the administrator of all the openstreetmap.org lists

I’ll have a poke and raise the issue with someone.

Alex

*From: *Graeme Fitzpatrick 
<mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>
*Date: *Monday, 31 January 2022 at 9:20 am
*To: *OSM-Au 
<mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org>
*Subject: *[talk-au] Strange e-mail address?

Just replied to the "Consistent addr:state format" thread as a
reply all, but got an undelivered message bounce back to me.

Says that message was sent to

OSM-Au  & OSM-Au
, but
public.gmane.org <http://public.gmane.org> couldn't be found.

The response was:

DNS Error: 4023212 DNS type 'mx' lookup of public.gmane.org
<http://public.gmane.org> responded with code NXDOMAIN Domain
name not found: public.gmane.org <http://public.gmane.org>

Does this mean anything at all to anybody?

Thanks

Graeme



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Re: [talk-au] Strange e-mail address?

[Ben Kelley]

The list processor sorts out bounces.

On 31/1/22 11:05, Alex Sims wrote:


Hi Michael,

Gname.org moved to gmane.io almost a year ago. So the subscription to 
x...@gname.org will never work again and should be deleted. A new link 
needs to be set to gmane.io so that the NNTP feed via news.gmane.io 
can work (if desired)


https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/category/gmane/ summary of the move

Alex

*From: *Michael Collinson 
*Date: *Monday, 31 January 2022 at 10:18 am
*To: *talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
*Subject: *Re: [talk-au] Strange e-mail address?

I just create lists so I have forwarded this to Tom Hughes in case he 
can help or elucidate.  /Mike


On 31/1/22 10:24 am, Alex Sims wrote:

HI Graeme,

When you send an email to the list, it then sends a copy to
subscribers which includes a mirror at gmane.org. For some reason
the copy at gname.org is bouncing back and you get the bounce.

So the link between the mailing list and gmane needs fixing, a job
for the administrator of all the openstreetmap.org lists

I’ll have a poke and raise the issue with someone.

Alex

*From: *Graeme Fitzpatrick 
<mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>
*Date: *Monday, 31 January 2022 at 9:20 am
*To: *OSM-Au 
<mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org>
*Subject: *[talk-au] Strange e-mail address?

Just replied to the "Consistent addr:state format" thread as a
reply all, but got an undelivered message bounce back to me.

Says that message was sent to

OSM-Au  & OSM-Au
, but
public.gmane.org <http://public.gmane.org> couldn't be found.

The response was:

DNS Error: 4023212 DNS type 'mx' lookup of public.gmane.org
<http://public.gmane.org> responded with code NXDOMAIN Domain name
not found: public.gmane.org <http://public.gmane.org>

Does this mean anything at all to anybody?

Thanks

Graeme



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Re: [talk-au] Tagging "boundary" roads with addr:*

[Ben Kelley]

Interesting.

Normally I don't tag addresses on streets, as it is not useful. I have used
it on ways for street number interpolation, but I make a way that goes
across the addresses, rather than attach it to the street.

 - Ben.



On Tue, 4 Jan 2022 at 13:42, Andrew Hughes  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> In the interest of stirring up a hornets nest (jokes). I'd like to know
> what could be said for tagging ways (streets/roads) with add:suburb (or
> addr:county...) where the suburb (or other region/area) the road "belongs"
> to can NOT be spatially determined (i.e. typically runs along or forms the
> boundary of the suburb/area).
>
> I'll leave it at that (purposely open ended).
>
> Examples:
> Suburb:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=306101556#map=17/-27.42763/153.04615
> LGA:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=368601578#map=19/-27.60641/152.90991
>
> Thanks for reading.
> A Hughes
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Re: [talk-au] Lifeguards & "Swim Between the Flags"

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

In my experience, the actual location of flags on any given day can vary 
a lot (according to the conditions). I don't think there is any benefit 
in trying to mark on the map where the flags are.


I think it is useful to know that this beach may have a lifeguard, as 
opposed to knowing that this beach never has a lifeguard.


 - Ben Kelley.

On 20/10/21 09:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
A little while back, I put the emergency=lifeguard proposal through, 
together with lifeguard=yes to describe those times when there is a 
lifeguard/s on the beach, but they may not be in a fixed location.


Have just started actually using them while I've been fixing GC 
beaches & realised that it's not quite right.


Rather than just lifeguard=yes to show that there's a lifeguard here 
somewhere, we should have some way of saying that the lifeguards are 
where the flags are i.e. "Swim Between the Flags".


How?

Would lifeguard=yes @ flagged_area / red_and_yellow_flags work?

Any suggestions?

Or do we just not worry about it, & work on the idea that =yes is 
sufficient?


Thanks

Graeme


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Re: [talk-au] Source material.

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

We need to be very careful about intellectual property with a project like
OSM. We cannot use maps (and aerial photos etc) where the owner does not
give us permission.

I can understand that this is frustrating when you have spent time on it,
and you had good intentions, but the original copyright owner won't see it
that way.

There is more detail on the wiki at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Copyright

Some government agencies give explicit permission for OSM to use their
data. Without explicit permission, this data cannot be used in OSM.

 - Ben Kelley.

On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 at 08:31, Andrew & Ingrid Parker 
wrote:

> Good afternoon
>
> I emailed the group for the first time recently:
>
> *‘I am a basic OSM editor. I usually just correct obvious map errors I
> find while hiking/cycling. I have tried to be a little more ambitious every
> now and then, but I have found it can be quite difficult to keep other
> editors happy with what I do.’*
>
> I am writing to get some feedback from other members regarding an issue
> with another editor regarding  Changeset: 112406297 | OpenStreetMap
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/112406297#map=11/-36.7730/144.6082=G>
>
> I used MapShareVic as my source, but was told that this is not allowed. I
> am surprised by this as MapshareVic is the official Victorian Government
> land software.
>
> The background to this is that Fryers Ridge State Forest as depicted on
> the map was completely incorrect, and I was attempting to correct it. Using
> iD, I decided it was better to delete it and start again.
>
> I am trying to edit the map in good faith using iD. I have tried using
> JOSM in the past, but found it to be too daunting and have been unable to
> find any good tutorials on YouTube.
>
> As far as I can tell Warin61 has deleted all the editing I spent many
> hours on
>
> Maybe there is someone here who can help me get back to using JOSM?
>
> It would be good to see what others think about this.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Andrew Parker
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Re: [talk-au] Searching for tags?

[Ben Kelley]

Thanks all. Perfect!

I just found one that we could see from the water (i.e. it seems like
there's a boat ramp over there somewhere) but we couldn't find on land.

 - Ben.

On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 10:14, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Oops, it didn't show automatically, so click on the "Run" button!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 09:13, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>> Adam beat me to it, but here you go: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1bKw
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 09:01, Adam Horan  wrote:
>>
>>> For super powered searching you need https://overpass-turbo.eu/
>>>
>>> On the bottom right of the wiki page is a link to overpass which will
>>> embed a simple query for the tag key-value.
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dslipway
>>>
>>> The query can be modified to search a wider area, but unfortunately
>>> overpass queries are not super simple (and I say this as a programmer of
>>> several years)
>>> Searching across a very large area will be slow, or might be stopped if
>>> too slow.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 09:47, Ben Kelley  wrote:
>>>
>>>> In our search for boat ramps around here we found that there are heaps
>>>> that Google doesn't know about. We found 3 yesterday that Google didn't
>>>> have. Of those OSM had 2 of 3 (and I found a 4th in OSM I didn't know
>>>> about).
>>>>
>>>> How can you search for a specific feature in OSM? If you search for
>>>> "slipway" you only find things with "slipway" in the name. You can't search
>>>> for "leisure=slipway" on the main map either.
>>>>
>>>> Is there some other way to search for particular features?
>>>>
>>>>  - Ben.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ben Kelley
>>>> ben.kel...@gmail.com
>>>> https://mrebenezer.blogspot.com/
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[talk-au] Searching for tags?

[Ben Kelley]

In our search for boat ramps around here we found that there are heaps that
Google doesn't know about. We found 3 yesterday that Google didn't have. Of
those OSM had 2 of 3 (and I found a 4th in OSM I didn't know about).

How can you search for a specific feature in OSM? If you search for
"slipway" you only find things with "slipway" in the name. You can't search
for "leisure=slipway" on the main map either.

Is there some other way to search for particular features?

 - Ben.

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Re: [talk-au] Tagging yellow buoys

[Ben Kelley]

Yes having fun:
https://map.openseamap.org/?zoom=14=-33.50064=151.33839=BFTFFTF0TT

We were discussing today how oyster leases should be marked for maritime
mapping. We think probably a cardinal hazard marker (i.e. a hazard lies to
the N/S/E/W of this marker) rather than the location of the hardware for
growing the oysters.

Of course the places where the oysters grow (sorry I don't know the
technical name for this) are the easiest to see from an aerial photo. This
is normally marked as aquaculture in OSM.

The poles marking the hazard are visible on an aerial photo, but you can't
tell from the photo which ones are hazard markers (and which direction) and
which ones are just poles in the water.

 - Ben.

PS 2019 Sea Doo GTR 230


On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 11:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Yes, they're actually a "Special Mark", which can be used to mark anything
> out of the ordinary.
>
> https://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Safety/Navigation-buoys-marks-and-beacons
>
> Have fun! (& what'd you get? :-))
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Tue, 28 Sept 2021 at 13:37, Ben Kelley  wrote:
>
>> I have recently moved close to Brisbane Water (NSW Central Coast). Aerial
>> photos are quite good if you know what you're looking at.
>>
>> I think buoy_special_purpose is probably the closest.
>>
>>  - Ben.
>>
>> On Tue, 28 Sept 2021 at 13:29, Andrew Harvey 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I can't help much with tagging, but wanted to say good to see someone
>>> else interested in sea mapping, I mapped a small bit of the Georges River
>>> in Sydney via kayak many years ago.
>>>
>>> On Tue, 28 Sept 2021 at 10:39, Ben Kelley  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi.
>>>>
>>>> I'm slowly mapping more and more buoys in my area. The red and green
>>>> channel markers are obvious, but I wondered how to map yellow ones.
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing that for Open Sea Map it is a "special purpose mark".
>>>>
>>>> Generally they are used to mark hazards. The channel runs close to
>>>> moorings here, so there are yellow buoys between the channel and the
>>>> moorings.
>>>>
>>>> Is anyone else into Open Sea Map? (We bought a boat last week :) )
>>>>
>>>>  - Ben.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ben Kelley
>>>> ben.kel...@gmail.com
>>>> https://mrebenezer.blogspot.com/
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>>
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Re: [talk-au] Tagging yellow buoys

[Ben Kelley]

I have recently moved close to Brisbane Water (NSW Central Coast). Aerial
photos are quite good if you know what you're looking at.

I think buoy_special_purpose is probably the closest.

 - Ben.

On Tue, 28 Sept 2021 at 13:29, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> I can't help much with tagging, but wanted to say good to see someone else
> interested in sea mapping, I mapped a small bit of the Georges River in
> Sydney via kayak many years ago.
>
> On Tue, 28 Sept 2021 at 10:39, Ben Kelley  wrote:
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> I'm slowly mapping more and more buoys in my area. The red and green
>> channel markers are obvious, but I wondered how to map yellow ones.
>>
>> I'm guessing that for Open Sea Map it is a "special purpose mark".
>>
>> Generally they are used to mark hazards. The channel runs close to
>> moorings here, so there are yellow buoys between the channel and the
>> moorings.
>>
>> Is anyone else into Open Sea Map? (We bought a boat last week :) )
>>
>>  - Ben.
>>
>> --
>> Ben Kelley
>> ben.kel...@gmail.com
>> https://mrebenezer.blogspot.com/
>> This message was sent on my Atari 400
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[talk-au] Tagging yellow buoys

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

I'm slowly mapping more and more buoys in my area. The red and green
channel markers are obvious, but I wondered how to map yellow ones.

I'm guessing that for Open Sea Map it is a "special purpose mark".

Generally they are used to mark hazards. The channel runs close to moorings
here, so there are yellow buoys between the channel and the moorings.

Is anyone else into Open Sea Map? (We bought a boat last week :) )

 - Ben.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Thanks Chris (and everyone else) for your very helpful contributions.

I've tried to synthesise the discussion on this thread and would like to
propose the following for the Wales section of the Multilingual Tagging
page on the OSM Wiki.

This would be a slight change from the current entry

BEGINS/---

In Wales many, but by no means all, places and features are named
differently in Welsh and English.

*Instances where the name is different in Welsh and English*

The name tag should contain the name widely used by the local population.

This should be either the name used in English or the name used in Welsh
but not both.

If the name included in the name: tag is that used in English, name:cy can
be added to show the alternate name (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language
code for the Welsh language).

If it is the name included in the name: tag is the name used in Welsh,
name:en can be added to show the alternate name (en is the two letter
ISO639-1 language code for the English language).

Examples:

name: Welshpool
name:cy Y Trallwng

name: Biwmares
name:en Beaumaris

It should not be necessary to add both name:en and name:cy though it is not
harmful to do so.

*Instances where the name is the same in Welsh and English*

The name: tag should contain the name.

It is not, in principle, necessary to add either a name:cy or a name:en
(since there is only one name in both languages).

However

Multi-lingual tagging in Wales is currently patchy. Adding a name:cy tag
even though this will duplicate the information in the name: tag would help
other mappers distinguish between cases where multi-lingual tagging has not
yet been applied and cases where the name is the same in Welsh and English.

Example:
name: Caernarfon
name:cy Caernarfon

---/ENDS


I *think* this largely synthesises the discussion so far. I'd welcome more
comments on this.


On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:40 PM Christopher Jones 
wrote:

> Hi Ben,
>
> Personally, I don’t see the point of
>
> name: Swansea
> name:en Swansea
> name:cy Abertawe
>
> It's stating the obvious that if name:cy is not the same as name: for a
> place in Wales, the name attribute is the English, and visa versa. It’s a
> little close to “tagging for the renderer” for my taste. That said it costs
> little to duplicate it in practice, so rock on if that’s what you want to
> do!
>
> Regarding what should be in the name tag, we have a set of flawed options…
>
> You initially suggested using a “widely” known by rule, this by its nature
> favours the English names. The majority of the Welsh population are primary
> English speakers, and despite a huge amount of time and money being spent
> on welsh language laws and education provision that’s not about to change
> in any of our lifetimes, even the welsh governments hugely ambitious target
> is for 1M welsh speakers by 2050, that still less than a third of the
> population.
>
> • always use the name that is used in Welsh
>
> In Gwynedd where 65% of the population identify as able to speak welsh,
> this might make some sense, in Blaenau Gwent where its 7.8%, this makes no
> sense. (Figures from the 2011 census)
>
> • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a
> hyphen (which is the practice in some other countries)
>
> I’m going to refer you to
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020478.html
> where I made my argument against this (tl;dr - its ugly, confusing and
> there are much better ways of achieving the aim (ie localised renders))
>
> • use the name on local signage
>
> I’m going to assume you mean to use the first name on the local signage
> because the vast majority of signage has both English and welsh names
> (where they both exist), indeed its been a legal requirement for them to do
> so for quite some time. The major issue with this is since the Welsh
> Language Measure of 2011 councils have a duty to ensure "that the Welsh
> language is treated no less favourably than the English language” this
> ensures that on any sign made in the last 10 years Welsh is first
> regardless of local usage.
>
> So we end up with the status quo….
>
> • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is
> what the wiki currently suggests)
>
> This too has issues, the main one being its hard to verify, it relies on
> local mappers being able to reach a consensus.
>
> To me, this remains the pragmatic option!
>
> Thanks for reading!
>
> And Ben, thanks for taking on the welsh render!
>
> —
> Chris - not a Welsh speaker, but ran cyOSM, the first multilingual OSM
> render many moons ago.
>
>
> > On 21 Oct 2020, at 12:10, Ben Proctor  wrote:
> >
> > Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far.
> >
> > 

Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far.

I'd like to draw out what I see as the key threads of the discussion so far:
The use of :cy and :en name tags should be encouraged. It allows more
flexibility in rendering and adds clarity. So far this hasn't been a very
controversial part of the discussion.

I think the wiki could be revised to emphasise this without causing too
much concern.



There isn't consensus on the use of the name: tag. I think there several
suggestions have been floated:

   - always use the name that is used in Welsh
   - use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is what the
   wiki currently suggests)
   - use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a hyphen
   (which is the practice in some other countries)
   - use the name on local signage

We have had advice that OSM should maintain neutrality. I'm sure that is
the sensible position to aim for. This tends to point us to using the name
on local signage or the name used by the "local population".

>From my perspective identifying the name used by the local population is
likely to be fraught in many cases and so a mapper would probably be best
advised to refer to local signage.

Local signage will frequently show the cy: name and the en: name.

So I *think* this might be pointing us towards suggesting the name: tag
should reflect local signage. This would inevitably lead to more dual
naming in the name: tag.


What does everyone think?








On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 5:08 PM Andy Townsend  wrote:

> Hi Gruff, hi Ben,
>
> On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
>
>
> The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful for
> this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a single name
> tag for each place name - giving the impression that one language has
> precedence over another.
>
> Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has precedence
> over another".  If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's available for
> everyone to use.  It's entirely possible, right now, to create a map using
> only :cy names (as Ben and Andy have pointed out,
> https://openstreetmap.cymru/ does exactly that already).  Other maps can
> choose to use :en names in one area and :cy in others (see
> https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9=51.93=-4.182
> for an example of that), or hyphenate names Welsh-first or English-first,
> or use different colours for different languages, or, or...
>
> The whole point of OSM is that it is more than just one map.
>
>
> With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If we
> accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and that OSM
> is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to respect
> native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't. Could we
> take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place names where
> that's possible?
>
> OpenStreetMap's approach to disputed territories tries to be neutral - see
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf
> .  It favours "on the ground" current usage.  The Data Working Group gets
> _lots_ of requests along the lines of "the official language of country X
> is Y, therefore all placenames in country X should be displayed at osm.org
> in language Y".  Where the majority of people in an area speak a different
> language to the majority of people in the rest of the country, it is only
> fair to reflect that local language in the "name" tag.  OSM should not be
> making decisions about which placenames are more "authentic" than others
> via some sort of "historical authenticity test".  Imagine trying to apply
> that to Kaliningrad https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442 (look
> at all the "old_name" tags there for context).  In Wales, OSM has
> occasionally had mappers making "forced language changes" both ways -
> either changing names in predominantly English-speaking areas to Welsh
> versions of the original English and English speakers changing original
> (and most common in local usage) Welsh names to English versions.
>
> One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an external
> body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place names that we can
> refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language Commissioner provides a
> recommended list of standardised place names for Wales which is licensed
> under OGL 3.0:
>
>
> http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx
>
> Different OSM communities do this in different ways.  I believe that in
> Ireland name:ga is usually the "official" version, which may differ from
&g

[Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi everyone

I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual
tagging in Wales.

In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping
https://openstreetmap.cymru/ and we've done some thinking about how Welsh
and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some
(online) workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language
tags to the map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the
medium of Welsh but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.

The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has
been an area of discussion.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales

The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.






*[starts/---]In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local
population uses.name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh
names where such names exist but are not the name used by the local
population. (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh
language.)The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across
the country and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.*
*[---/ends]*

>From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion,
replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):













*[starts/---]In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the
place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not
both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name:
Wales/Cymru.name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or
feature is known in English.name:cy should be used to give the name by
which the place or feature is known in WelshEven though this will lead to
apparent duplication. For example:name: Swanseaname:en Swanseaname:cy
AbertaweThis allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so
rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.*
*[---/ends]*

*Our Reasoning*
Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh
and English. Many other places have the same name in Welsh and English. It
is not possible to infer from the Name tag whether the contents are in
Welsh or English.

We believe that the only unambiguous way to name places and features in
Wales is to use the name:en and name:cy tags.

The "name" tag does not fit the Wales context well but we recognise its
importance within the wider OSM community. Though in some bilingual
countries the name tag contains both versions of a name and notably in the
Basque country this seemingly reflects the official state policy of
designating the official name of a town as its two names delimited by a
hyphen. We believe in the Wales context this would be better achieved by
processing name:en and name:cy tags.

We're really happy to get some feedback, questions or comments on this
proposal. Especially highlighting things we might have missed or
misconstrued.

Cheers

Ben
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Re: [talk-au] Re-tag rural residential roads to unclassified?

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

I would normally tag such roads (minor roads in rural areas) as 
unclassified rather than residential.


I suspect there is not a lot of difference between residential and 
unclassified though.


 - Ben.

On 2/10/20 14:43, Little Maps wrote:


Hi everyone, I was reviewing highway tags in south-central NSW 
(initially to add in missing paved and unpaved tags) and noted that 
road classification differ greatly between adjacent local gov areas. 
In central Federation Shire Council, north of Mulwala and Corowa, the 
bulk of rural roads are tagged as residential whereas in all 
surrounding LGAs they are tagged as unclassified, as shown in this 
Overpass query: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/YCa 
<http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/YCa>


(the query shows 4 adjacent LGAs, with the Federation Shire in 
the lower centre).


This is a rural cropping /grazing region, not a densely settled 
irrigation area. Is it appropriate to re-tag the rural "residential" 
roads as "unclassified'' for consistency, after inspecting each on 
satellite images, leaving residential roads in and around small towns 
only? Thanks for your help, Ian




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Re: [talk-au] Unattributed use of map

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

Yes previously I have just sent an email. e.g.

Hi. I noticed that [feature] on your web site uses Open Street Map as its
base map, but it does not include the correct copyright notice for Open
Street Map. As a contributor to Open Street Map, I wonder if your web site
could be updated to include the correct copyright notice. Thanks.

In this case the company was using an (open source) e-commerce solution
that included maps, but the underlying product used Leaflet, and disabled
the default copyright notice. I also raised a bug report with the
e-commerce platform. Eventually it got fixed.

 - Ben.


On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 at 09:59, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Just looking at the map for the next stage of the GC Light Rail
> construction & spotted that it's using OSM, with no attribution :-(
>
> https://gclr3.com.au/map
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/-28.0837/153.4468
>
> How do we usually report things like this?
>
> Just an e-mail to their contact address & ask, please do it properly?
>
> Is there a standard, similar to asking for a waiver on use of data?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: maps/navigation data source

[ben . kimdi]

If maps compiled this way work well what's wrong with it?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ben Kimdi

Am 03-Sep-2020 01:31:44 +0200 schrieb mnidqb9jz...@mail.ru:
> 
> OSM, is a fake map that is made by people 1000 of miles away from what they 
> are mapping based on
> 
> satellite images.
> 
> and no way to remove fake data.
> 
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 3:49 PM  wrote:

-
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Re: [OSM-talk] maps/navigation data source

[ben . kimdi]

Which are the world regions OSM data is better in? Which are world regions OSM 
data is equal good?
Main use will be in country of own life center. However hard to say which 
regions will data be used in future (unplannable).

Which are kinds of navigation OSM is better in? Which are kinds of navigation 
OSM is equal good?
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ben Kimdi

Am 02-Sep-2020 23:56:31 +0200 schrieb miketh...@gmail.com:
> 
> Ben,
> 
> What type of navigation, car, public transport, bicycle, walking...?
> 
> What part of the world will you be navigating in?  Some parts of the world 
> have better OSM data than others. 
> 
> Another consideration is how well the app makes use of all of the data in 
> OSM. e.g. turn restrictions, oneway, types of travel allowed...
> 
> I use the free, open source, OSMAND app. https://osmand.net/
> 
> Mike
> 
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[OSM-talk] maps/navigation data source

[ben . kimdi]

Hi,
Navigation app for my iOS device (Navigator by MapFactor) offers two choices 
regarding maps/navigation data source. These are (i) OpenStreetMaps and (ii) 
TomTom. One can load maps from both sources to app. One seems to can use both 
however not at the same time.
For decision if it is worth to order TomTom maps for that app I wonder which 
differences between those two data sources should I be aware of before deciding 
if OpenStreetMaps maps will suffice or if I like additionally to have a backup 
by TomTom maps.

Any suggestions?
Which source of knowledge might help on finding answer to asked question?
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Re: [talk-au] OSM Way & Govt Street (centerline) Correlation, how?

[Ben Kelley]

At some level you will need to deal with the fact that people edit ways,
generally based on orthorectified photos, but also based on GPS traces.

Even if the correlation started out good, it could change over time as
people edit the map.

I guess it depends how much correlation you need.

 - Ben.

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 12:00, Andrew Hughes  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> First time poster and very new to OSM so please feel free to throw
> anything at me you think I should educate myself on.
>
> I'm currently the GIS Lead at the National Heavy Vehicle Regulator (HNVR).
> We're very serious about adopting OSM for some of our needs. However, our
> OSM adoption is largely dependent on a minimum correlation between the OSM
> ways and the streets found in Government centerline/road datasets (States
> and/or LGAs).
>
> Q: Would anyone be able to provide me with some insight as to what we
> might expect when looking to achieve the correlation we need? Please be
> aware, our intent is to contribute and "close the gap" but we need to know
> if/how this can best be done in a cohesive way within the OSM community. *I'm
> also aware there may be licensing issues, please overlook these for now.*
>
> The NHVR are quite serious about what it hopes to achieve in the next 12
> -24 months through GIS and we are very enthusiastic to learn and contribute
> to OSM. I hope to be speaking with you a lot more in the near future.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Andrew Hughes
>
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Re: [talk-au] Postal addresses

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

I sometimes tag house names if they are known. I don't think the wiki
implies that you should not add house name if you add house number, but I
agree it's not generally useful in terms of delivering mail in Australia.

 - Ben.

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 at 17:08, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi
>
>  2 things on addresses.
>
>  Firstly house names.
>
> While these exist they are seldom required for postal addresses so the should 
> not be placed into addr:housename=* but rather into name=*.
>
> The wiki specifically implies if there is a addr:housenumber there should be 
> no addr:housename.
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr#Commonly_used_subkeys
>
>  Secondly remote addresses - Roadside Mail Box/Bag, Roadside Mail Service, 
> Private Bag etc.
>
> These are hard to find out how to map them on the wiki, I think they need to 
> go into the Australian Tagging guidelines.
>
> The answer is the same for PO boxes - use addr:full=*
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] highway=motorway_junction

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

It seems pretty clear (to me at least) on the highway=motorway_junction 
page that the junction node should not indicate the destination, but 
rather on the way branching off. The examples show this situation.


 - Ben.

On 24/2/20 13:09, Ian Steer wrote:


What do people think about this tag?  I don’t know what he is trying 
to achieve.





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Re: [talk-au] TfNSW Cycleways use in OSM

[Ben Kelley]

Some councils put up signs (often blue and white) indicating a cycle route.

It generally shows the destination, maybe how far to the destination, 
and generally a picture of a bicycle. The sign might point to a road or 
a path.


This is the best link I could find (sorry - big PDF, but it gives you 
the idea): 
https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.cityofsydney/sydneycycleways/CoSBicycleNetworkSigningGuidelinesNov2010_Report.pdf



On 24/2/20 11:49, Andrew Davidson wrote:


I'm not a Sydney rider so I'll ask an apparently dumb question. What 
blue and white signs are we talking about here?



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Re: [talk-au] TfNSW Cycleways use in OSM

[Ben Kelley]

Don't forget the blue and white signs!

Practically I'd map a lcn=yes tag (or relation) for blue & white signs.


 - Ben.

On 24/2/20 02:59, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au wrote:

Is it possible that they are listing
roads with minor traffic, connecting
parts of real bicycle infrastructure?





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Re: [talk-au] Magento + Leaflet = no attribution

[Ben Kelley]

I guess it makes it a bit hard when the underlying product disables the 
attribution. Not that this excuses them though.


FWIW this is the bug report I created for Smile Map: 
https://github.com/Smile-SA/magento2-module-map/issues/30



On 4/2/20 16:49, Phil Wyatt wrote:


Good on you – I have sent a few emails to them. I generally send them 
one every time they send me some marketing…saying I am boycotting the 
site until they fix it! 


I figure if they want to bug me with marketing then they can get an 
equal dose of emails re the attribution.


Lets hope it works

Cheers - Phil



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[talk-au] Magento + Leaflet = no attribution

[Ben Kelley]

So, with nothing better to do, I was checking if Kathmandu had updated
their web site to include the correct attribution for OSM. (no)

It seems they use Magento (an e-commerce platform) with Smile's Map add-in
for Magento. (https://github.com/Smile-SA/magento2-module-map) This in term
uses Leaflet, but disables the attribution. (As far as I can tell.)

That is, if you use this on your Magento site, you get a nice map, but with
the attribution disabled. I'll submit a bug report on the Smile Map project.

 - Ben.
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Re: [talk-au] OT: DB has correct attribution

[Ben Kelley]

I think our top speed was about 235km/h.

  - Ben.


On Sun., 5 Jan. 2020, 22:15 Graeme Fitzpatrick, 
wrote:

> Very nice.
>
> What was it doing on the flat?
>
>
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[talk-au] OT: DB has correct attribution

[Ben Kelley]

I'm currently on a train in Germany. Slowed down to 130km/h for some bends.
The train wifi has a page showing you the train's location and speed, which
uses OSM.

Nice.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/iXbF3C7mNQKioeGq9


   - Ben.

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Re: [talk-au] Adding polygons of the aerodromes

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

That seems like a good idea. How will you know the bounds of the airport?
Just from aerial photos?

 - Ben.

On Wed, 25 Dec 2019 at 22:28, Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> We would like to manually add polygons around airports in whole Australia.
> We have added polygons for very few airports that were marked just with a
> single node.
>
>
>
> By using THIS <https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Pe6> OverPass-Turbo link, you
> can see that there are nearly 1,200 airports that needs to be inspected.
>
> We could recognize that other map competitors have properly marked most of
> these airports as polygons.
>
>
>
> Anyway, we have doubt should we add polygons in the following situation(s):
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/73310214
>
>
>
> There are no control tower nor any other buildings. It has a proper name
> Kulin Airport @-32.6721992, 118.1689987.
>
> Should we add a polygon in such cases?
>
>
>
> Please note that *we won’t add any polygons* if the
> airport/airstrip/runway is on the water.
>
>
>
> We believe that there is no need to preserve both way and a node of the
> same feature. Especially because that node is somewhere at the center of
> the airport and it doesn’t represent entry of the airport area or entry of
> some building. Example should be Hamilton Airport @
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/407705915. We would merge existing
> node of the airport in to polygon of the same polygon and we would remove
> tags from the merged node.
>
>
>
> If we are adding new polygon, we would preserve existing airport node by
> keeping this node as a part of the new polygon.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for the answers!
>
>
>
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
>
> Nemanja
>
>
>
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[talk-au] Kathmandu + OSM

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

I noticed that Kathmandu's web site (the clothing retailer, rather than the
city in Nepal) uses OSM for their store locator, but it does not include
the correct copyright information. https://www.kathmandu.com.au/stores

I sent them some feedback on their web site to this effect, so I'll see how
it goes.

 - Ben.
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Re: [talk-au] tagging of "demolished" roads

[Ben Kelley]

This seems like a good case where the road is being actively dismantled.

I think the only reason to keep it at all is where you can see the 
ex-road in imagery, so you want people who are editing to know that this 
thing doesn't actually exist.


 - Ben.


On 27/11/19 09:32, Warin wrote:
I would go with either disused: or abandoned: .. very rare for remote 
roads to be actively dismantled.



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Re: [talk-au] Whereis copyright?

[Ben Kelley]

At first I thought yes, but wheres.com (Sensis/Telstra) uses OSM, so I 
guess it depends on what data they used.


 - Ben.


On 20/11/19 15:11, Warin wrote:
I have found a contributor who is using 'whereis' as a source. I 
believe that is a copyright breach?


Anyone know .. I don't want to go asking them and their web site is 
not clear to me (must update this softwear!)?




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Re: [talk-au] Mapping 'private roads' conclusion

[Ben Kelley]

Looks good I think.


 - Ben.

On 9/10/19 11:55, Warin wrote:
Ok.. I think the following can be done on the Australian Tagging 
Guidelines;



Remove the words "not map the interior private roads in detail" from 
service roads
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Urban_Areas 




Add a new section "Private Roads" under 'Road Tagging' as the last entry.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging 



With words something like?

"Private roads can be mapped, this provides information for;
the person going past, that the road is private and their location on 
the map

emergency services who may find the road of benefit
the private individual who can use the road

Such private roads should have the tag 'access=private', if you are 
not certain then it is best to err on the cautious side and add the 
'access=private'."




Any objections, corrections, better words .. ??? 



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Re: [talk-au] Discussion J: regionalisation of editor presets

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

A question of clarification:

Are you asking how to change the defaults when you yourself are editing?

Or are you wanting to raise a problem you see with the current defaults?
(This would seem to be a problem you perceive rather than a question.)


- Ben.


On Mon., 7 Oct. 2019, 10:05 Herbert.Remi via Talk-au, <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Discussion J: regionalisation of editor presets
> I am now putting the question at the top and bottom of the text.
>
> ## QUESTION
> How can the presets for the editor (ID and JOSM) be changed to the ATG
> default for the ACT when editing paths in this territory?
>
> # The Issue (background)
> What is the cause of the overwhelming inconsistencies between the path
> tags in OSM and the ATG? This was the question from Discussion I
> (6/10/2019). There may be multiple causes. The error seems to be systematic.
>
> ## Human factors and preset design
> One possible systematic cause is that mappers are trusting the preset to
> get it right.
>
> If it looks like a pedestrian path, then the click on the “walking man”
> button in the ID editor. The presumption here is the preset is correct for
> the ACT. This turns out to be a mistake.
>
> If the path looks like it is for bikes then the mapper clicks the blue
> bike. Again, the mapper is trusting the preset to be correct for the ACT
> but it is not.
>
> The preset with the closed approximation to the ATG tags are the “bike and
> pedestrian” button (noted in Discussion D), which is the least favoured of
> the three in the ACT (try it for yourself in overpass turbo).
>
> ## ID editor preset values
> The ID editor has the following tag values for presets. None are correct
> according to the ATG for the ACT. Pushing any of these buttons will fill
> the OSM database with the wrong data for the ACT.
>
> Foot Path preset (symbol "walking man“)
> tags:
> - highway=footway
>
> Cycle Path preset (symbol blue bike)
> tags:
> - highway=cycleway
>
> Cycle & Foot Path preset (symbol blue bike)
> tags:
> - cycleway=highway
> - foot=designated
> - bicycle=designated
>
> ## accumulating tags assumption
> One mapper has suggested in this forum that the tags accumulated when you
> click multiple buttons, one after another. This assumption may be widely
> held but is also incorrect.
>
> The actual behaviour of the ID editor is quite different. Push the buttons
> in any sequence and the tags of the new preset overwrite the tags that the
> previous button had put on the "way". Tags are overwritten and not
> accumulated. (Lifecycle tags accumulate a history.)
>
> ## The default is king - proven again and again
> Studies have shown that people will stick with the default option 85% of
> the time. In the studies, an alternative option is offered but nobody ever
> clicks on it. This is human nature (psychology). People prefer to go with
> the default.
>
> For the ID editor, this is problematic. The three preset buttons discussed
> have default tags and the editor does not offer to the mapper to change
> them. I doubt most people would think to do so.
>
> The presets in the editor have become the defacto STANDARD, replacing
> anything that might be found in the ATG. The ATG is ignored in preference
> for a default chosen by the editor developer. The outcome is a systematic
> skew of the data in OSM to preset values (verify it yourself in overpass
> turbo).
>
> ## changing the preset to be ATG conform for each state/territory
> One option is to change these three presets to conform with the ATG and
> ACT standard values for “type A” and “type B” paths (see Discussion D).
> Both these types are a Cycle & Foot Path but may have a different
> appearance. Cycle Path and Foot Path would take on the ATG default for
> cycle ONLY path and pedestrian ONLY path respectively. The mapper may need
> to be reminded that the Cycle & Foot Path is the default for the ACT.
>
> Another option would be to set the Cycle Path and Foot Path with the ATG
> and ACT standard values for “type A” and “type B” paths (see Discussion D).
> The advantage of this is that we don’t require the mapper to change their
> behaviour. For the mapper, it is business as usual. Over time the OSM data
> will be corrected through the mappers' habit of toggling each other's work.
> The whole OSM data set for paths in the ACT will be overwritten and it will
> become largely correct. We would go from 95% incorrect to mostly correct. A
> big improvement.
>
> ## QUESTION
> How can the presets for the editor (ID and JOSM) be changed to the ATG
> default for the ACT when editing paths in this territory?
>
> I welcome your comments.
> Keywords: Australia, ACT, ATG, ID edito

Re: [talk-au] Discussion C: mapping on the street :: fixmes

[Ben Kelley]

Yeah agreed. If you added a FIXME, who would fix it?

If I see something like that, I generally make a note to myself to go back
and fix it later.

 - Ben.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 at 09:57, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> There are lots of fixmes on the map. They don't get fixed.
> If you know of a correction .. do it. KISS.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Discussion A: Is this forum fit for purpose?

[Ben Kelley]

You are missing one need: It needs to be something that people will use.

For that reason, there are many ways to handle this, with the talk-au list
being one of those.

Some people use some of the other (existing) options for discussing OSM. A
mailing list has its advantages and disadvantages, but there are other
options that implement some of the features you suggest in a better way.
The more modern platforms already exist.

- Ben.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 09:02, Herbert.Remi via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> # Discussion A: Is this forum fit for purpose?
>
>  “PLEASE KEEP IT BRIEF. SPACE OF OF A PREMIUM. THANKS, JANE”
>
> ## The Issue
>
> The forum needs to be robust. It needs to tolerate a lot of traffic. It
> needs to work on the busy days, not just the quiet. It needs a
> functionality that allows you to manage congestion. It needs to tolerate
> diverse interest and writing styles. It needs to have room for growth.
>
>
> **I believe OSM is too important for anything else!**
>
>
> If you love OSM, and I am sure you do, then we need a more modern platform
> then this. This mailing list is so 90s.
>
> The good news is there is plenty of options and I am sure that here there
> is the technical expertise and ability to put it on a better footing.
>
>
>
> ## Features that would be of value:
>
>- You need to be able to tailor your view of the content without
>intervention of a group moderator or group consensus.
>- You need to filter the content for topics your interest in and
>topics you’re not
>- You need to filter the content with posts from people you like and
>block those that you don’t (whitelist and blacklist).
>- You need to be able to search by including and excluding keywords,
>preferably both in the same query
>- You need to be able to search by post tags, again both including and
>excluding
>- Preferable, it would be best to combine both tag and keyword
>searches (but many platforms have problems with this)
>- Every post should be tagged with country and state of jurisdiction.
>The country could be default and I only suggest it as at some time other
>this idea may spread.
>- Provide the option to tag (plain text) the posts with the topic
>under discussion e.g. highway, lifecycle, announcement, events,
>registration, mapping party, instructions, and message type (“The Facts”,
>“The Issue”, etc)
>- You should be able to move between chat groups and follow multiple
>chat groups. Slack does this well.
>- A post should be able to include “attachments” that are not visible
>until open: office files, photos, PDF, HTML links. This saves screen space.
>- Posts should have a header. It provides a (searchable) overview and
>the actual post could be blended in and out.
>- A smartphone app would be great. Why? Seek data shows most job
>applications are done on the app and take less than 15 minutes. It is
>remarkable how much you get done on the way to work on the bus.
>- The help provided by this forum should be made available as soon as
>it is posted: 365 days a year, 24 hours per day.
>- Ideally, it should support a "forms" function for registration to
>group events (or link to an external platform that supports such)
>- It would be great to have a calendar function for events.
>- We need more than a plain text. Rich text functionality is
>advisable. A HTML capable editor is an option (transparent). As I have
>previously mentioned, "markdown" is a popular modern option support by
>FOSS/GitHub
>
> Everybody is welcome in an OSM forum, no matter the interest. We need
> everybody we can find to help with this project. We should try to create an
> environment where is happy to do what they do best, and come and go as they
> please.
>
> I welcome your comments. 
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging a St John's Ambulance base

[Ben Proctor]

Thanks both

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 21:53, Peter Neale via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> ...Or, looking at their website, it is a charity, so perhaps that makes it
> a "social facility"?
>
> Oh BTW, it is "St John Ambulance", not "St John's Ambulance" (I don't know
> why, but it is...)
>
> See St John Ambulance - the nation’s leading first aid charity
> <http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/default.aspx>
>
> St John Ambulance - the nation’s leading first aid charity
>
> First aid is a simple skill with an incredible impact. We want everyone to
> learn it, so that they can be the dif...
> <http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/default.aspx>
>
> Regards,
> Peter Neale
> t: 01908 309666
> m: 07968 341930
> skype: nealepb
>
>
> On Wednesday, 10 July 2019, 21:20:36 BST, Peter Neale via Talk-GB <
> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>
> Personally, I would have thought of it as a club, in which first aid is
> taught, as a hobby ( No offence intended to any St John volunteers)
>
> Peter
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers_wl=ym_sub1=Internal_sub2=Global_YGrowth_sub3=EmailSignature>
>
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 20:30, Mark Goodge
>  wrote:
>
>
> On 10/07/2019 19:08, Ben Proctor wrote:
> > Hello mapping people
> >
> > There is a building and yard in Hereford used by St John's Ambulance.
> > The building functions as a meeting venue (like a scout hut but for St
> > John's) and some vehicles are stored in the yard.
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.06051/-2.71419
> >
> > How would you tag this?
> >
> > It's currently amenity=doctors which doesn't seem right.
> > emergency=ambulance_station doesn't seem to describe this use.
> >
> > I was heading down amenity=community_centre route but I'm not sure
> > that's right either.
> >
> > A quick search for St John's Ambulance reveals a wider range of
> > approaches in other areas.
>
> I'd be inclined to go for community centre, in this case. It isn't an
> emergency ambulance station, which is what the
> emergency=ambulance_station tag is for (and, in any case, is rapidly
> becoming obsolete with the new distributed means of organising an
> ambulance service), and it isn't a doctor or a clinic either. And the
> main purpose of the building (as opposed to the yard) is for things like
> first aid training (both for St John volunteers themselves and the wider
> community). So a community centre is probably closest.
>
> Mark
>
> Mark
>
>
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98 | LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/likeaword/>

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[Talk-GB] Tagging a St John's Ambulance base

[Ben Proctor]

Hello mapping people

There is a building and yard in Hereford used by St John's Ambulance. The
building functions as a meeting venue (like a scout hut but for St John's)
and some vehicles are stored in the yard.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.06051/-2.71419

How would you tag this?

It's currently amenity=doctors which doesn't seem right.
emergency=ambulance_station doesn't seem to describe this use.

I was heading down amenity=community_centre route but I'm not sure that's
right either.

A quick search for St John's Ambulance reveals a wider range of approaches
in other areas.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
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[talk-au] Ways to map boundaries that won't go into OSM

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

A project I have been thinking about for a while is creating a map of
Anglican (church) parish boundaries in Australia.

In some sense these are like admin boundaries, but the source of the
boundary is not easily verifiable. While the resulting map would be based
on OSM, the data itself probably does not belong in OSM.

Any thoughts on a tool set for how to do this?

I'm after ideas for a way for people to edit this data, ways to store it,
ways to display it online, and ways to make a printed map (if necessary).

The source data in some areas can be written, like "The boundary runs north
from the end of Railway Parade until it crosses the creek." The person
editing this map would use OSM to draw the boundary (making it a derivative
work), possibly for display as a layer on top of OSM data.

If I needed to stand up a server to store edits, that's a possibility. Is
it possible to integrate existing editing UI tools with a different back
end, or would this require people to use JOSM?

In the past some people have done similar using Google's tool set, but then
the resulting maps are derivatives of Google's base map, which creates
problems if you want to reproduce that map outside of Google Maps.

 - Ben.
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Re: [talk-au] Tagging frontage roads

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

I would say yes. Include the name.

 - Ben Kelley.

On 13/6/19 12:36, David Wales wrote:

Dear Talk-AU,

Should frontage roads be tagged with names?

I have read the wiki page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Frontage_road

Consider this changeset:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/71199742

I am not sure if the two frontage roads should tagged with the name of
the main road ("Thirlmere Way"),
or if they should be left unnamed.

(The street address of the houses on the frontage roads is "Thirlmere Way".)

Regards,
David Wales




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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Collaboration with shire transport authorities

[Ben Proctor]

Hi

I'm based in Hereford and happy to be a contact here.

Cheers

Ben

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 at 12:39, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Tue, 2019-04-23 at 11:45 +0100, Brian Prangle wrote:
>
> Hi everyone
>
> Mainly for west mids mappers but cross-posted to talkgb for a wider
> audience.
>
> For some time I've collaborated with TfWM who make extensive use of
> OpenStreetMap. Together we've refreshed the entire NapTAN dataset for the
> West Midlands and we're engaged on an ongoing basis in solving data quality
> issues where the OSM data throws up errors with their bus routeing software.
> Word spreads and at a regional meeting of  shire transport authorities
> there was a request for contact with local OSM volunteers in the following
> areas:
>
> Herefordshire, Shropshire, Staffordshire, Stoke, Telford, Warwickshire,
> Worcestershire
>
> If anyone wants to volunteer please get in touch with me and I can put you
> in touch. It will mainly involve dealing with errors they spot such as
> missing/wrong roadnames, missing/wrong roads. With TfWM there's been an
> average of one of these week, sometimes bunched together followed by weeks
> with nothing - so not a heavy workload and worth the effort to improve the
> data.
>
> If my experience is anything to go by, there'll be an initial peak and
> then they'll realise, with a little prompting, it's easier and quicker to
> fix the errors themselves. But it's good to have an initial period of
> handholding as  I think they are respectful  of causing any damage
>
> Hi Brian
> Please put me forward for Shropshire and Telford.
>
> Cheers Phil
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>


-- 
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*The Satori Lab*, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK

b...@satorilab.org | @likeaword <https://twitter.com/likeaword> | 07904 1234
98 | LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/likeaword/>

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Re: [talk-au] Sydney mapathon

[Ben Kelley]

Practically it will probably need to be a weekday evening, as we are not 
open on the weekend.


Also it will need to be a time I can make it. :)


 - Ben Kelley

On 18/3/19 13:03, Dion Moult wrote:

Hey Ben! Thanks for the option!

I'm going to tentatively suggest meeting this Saturday, 23rd March, 
say after lunch, so 2:30pm? Just for a very informal mapping session 
to see how things go, doesn't have to be a large crowd or anything?


Ben, do you think it will be possible for us to use your office at 
that time? I do not have a laptop, so I'm not sure if computers can be 
used, or if that is against company policy?


My company in North Sydney, walking distance from the train station, 
offers wifi, but although I've started asking internally, there is a 
little red tape before they might say yes to anything like providing 
refreshments and allowing strangers in the office. Although I think 
they might support this.


Sent from ProtonMail mobile



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Re: [talk-au] Sydney mapathon

[Ben Kelley]

So, a thought: We have at least a couple of OSM mappers at my workplace.

I may be able to organise an evening with tables & wifi. (No promises on
refreshments.)

My office is in Sydney CBD in George St. (Close to Wynyard and Martin Place
stations.)

If people are interested I can investigate further.

 - Ben Kelley.


On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 16:58, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> I'm interested in a local OSM I meetup, I wanted to organise one last
> year, but finding a venue provide too hard, so count me in if anyone want's
> to organise one. Could just be an informal meet pub meetup. Personally I'm
> more interested in something around local OSM.
>
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 16:07, Seb Mapping  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> I would also be interested in a Meetup.
>> During the week after 19:00/19:30 or Saturday.
>>
>> What is a suitable location? Ideally it would be close to public
>> transport (and on the northern beaches :-D )
>> Regards Sebastian
>>
>> On 15 March 2019 12:31:21 pm AEDT, David Wales 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Dion,
>>>
>>> I would be happy to meet up for an afternoon of mapping.
>>> Saturdays are usually best for me.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> David Wales
>>>
>>> On 15/3/19 11:26 am, Dion Moult wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for all the responses!
>>>>
>>>> Interested people in joining:
>>>> - Dion Moult (myself)
>>>> - David Anderson (coworker at HDR)
>>>> - David Wales
>>>> - Sebastian
>>>>
>>>> Currently Ritva is helping contact EWB to see if they are interested in
>>>> running one in Sydney (as Engineers Without Borders is helping run one
>>>> in Brisbane)
>>>>
>>>> We are in need of an experienced mapper who can guide us in cases of
>>>> uncertainty :)
>>>>
>>>> I wonder, if prior to a larger event we are keen to simply just meet up
>>>> casually for a weekend afternoon somewhere in Sydney and do some mapping
>>>> together to see how we fare? If things work out well that might give us
>>>> a bit of confidence to grow the group and do it a bit more regularly :)
>>>>
>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Original Message 
>>>> On 11 Mar. 2019, 5:08 pm, Sebastian < mapp...@consebt.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello Dion,
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> I am also interested in a mapathon as well as connecting with other
>>>> mappers on the Northern Beaches.
>>>>
>>>> With regards to experience I am not sure where I should place myself.
>>>> Have mapped a few things but I'm learning something new most days.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Sebastian
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Your thoughts on osm.org

[Ben Oliver]

On 2019-03-12 19:12:16, Simon Poole wrote:
what is the purpose of the website that you can reach on 
openstreetmap.org?


I think it's great. You are putting the map front and centre, which to 
me says "look at what we've achieved, look at what you can be a part 
of".


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Re: [talk-au] more SEO spam?

[Ben Kelley]

I agree.

 - Ben.

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 at 19:24, nwastra  wrote:

> We seem to be getting a lot of business edits in this form lately with
> only a name and description tag, often with address details or just spam in
> the description tag.
> As is usual with spam like business edits, they use a throw away email to
> make the edit and you never get a response from any query.
> https://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=66761372
> I am in favour of deleting them as SEO spam.
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Blank map in remote country areas

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

So there are 2 issues (it seems): At what zoom does the road show, and 
at what zoom does the name show?


Take for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=11/-31.7211/150.4649

At this zoom no roads have names.

Zoom in to 12, and you see highway=unclassified roads that weren't 
visible at 11.


You don't start to see the names of any roads at all until zoom 13. At 
zoom 15 you see the names of all roads.


I think showing more detail a little bit sooner when there is less 
detail to show is going to be a difficult problem for a renderer to 
solve in a way that makes more sense than the current popular renderers.


I think going from some roads to all roads over 2 zooms (13->15) is not 
a bad compromise.



 - Ben.

On 22/1/19 13:50, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
A while back, there was mention on the list of OSM only showing vast 
amounts of blank whiteness when looking at remote country areas; & 
then there was further mention regarding Aussie country roads not 
showing up well enough in OSM.


A lady I speak to on another forum, lives in a small town in FNQ, & 
had complained on the forum about various on-line maps not showing any 
details.


After I asked her for some details, so we could possibly examine 
things, she has said: (for privacy, I have deleted the name of her 
actual town):


I live in an isolated remote town called xxx, although not as 
isolated as some. Two hours/150km west of Mareeba and three 
hours/210km west of Cairns.
So its: Cairns, Mareeba, Dimbulah, Petford, Almaden, Chillagoe. 
Petford & Almaden are way smaller than x.


I rarely use Google Maps, but use Google Earth a lot. Today is 
probably the first time I've looked at GM for this specific area.


I've now realised OpenStreetMaps is actually no worse than Google 
Maps, and in some things it's actually better.


Zooming into xx, OpenStreetMaps is accurate and up-to-date, with 
roads and tracks that are actually in use.


Google Maps shows streets that no longer exist. They may be/have 
been/are gazetted roads, but now don't even look like they ever 
existed even in track form (although they did way way back in the 
mining days, I think).


The problem when I originally commented was that if I looked at the 
area between Dimbulah (or Petford) and Chillagoe, there was nothing to 
tell me the name of the road. But looking at Google Maps today, 
there's nothing there either. Although when I zoom in a name comes up 
more quickly than it does on OpenStreetMaps.


If I'm looking at a hard copy paper map from RACQ or Sunmap or 
whoever, I can see at a glance where I am and what the names of 
everything are.


It's just that our distances are vast, and at the amount zoomed out 
that I want some detail, the populated areas have no detail either. So 
in a way I can't expect it.


However, outback roads are usually the *only* roads there are and it 
would be nice to have labelling when that much zoomed out. (Is this 
making sense to you?)


I have a reasonable knowledge of east coast highways and roads between 
them (mainly Qld and NSW) and reference to a map is just double 
checking or looking for shortcuts or detours. I'm a bit of a map 
freak. Have a stack of hard copy maps for the east coast, and spend 
time on Google Earth and Google Maps just checking out old and new 
roads, and looking up places I read about in the news. Unfortunately 
I'm not that good with terrain on topo maps, but never needed to use 
them enough. And I've recently learned that I need to double check 
altitudes on GE before I make assumptions about geography. Not always 
what it looks like.


Here is a starting point for my area. (Bearing in mind I'm on a Sony 
Vaio with a 13 inch screen (13.3" ??).)


Google Maps
Seems to have more 'stops' in its zoom ability.
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-17.3121687,144.755859,11.75z
Looking at it today

OpenStreetMap
Unfamiliar map. If I zoom in more than this I have absolutely nothing...
Not enough 'stops' in the zoom. All or nothing.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=11/-17.2500/144.7895

Also, at first glance it looks like the railway line is the main road. 
In fact you can't see there's a road there until I zoom right in. You 
can see the rest of Burke Development Road to Chillagoe, you can see 
the road from Petford to Irvinebank, but you can't see the Almaden 
Gingerella Road running generally to the west of the rail line, and on 
down to Mount Garnet or Mount Surprise. You wouldn't know it was 
there. (Local name is the Ootan Road.)


Google Maps is not much better to look at, but you can see the road, 
and the road is 'highlighted' (slightly)more than the rail line.


This railway line carries The Savannahlander which leaves Cairns for 
Forsayth on Wednesday and returns on Saturday except in the Wet 
Season. Nothing else travels on it, except the occasional QR Toyota 
with rail wheels.


So, to me, a lot of this would seem to tie in with country roads being 
mapped as =uncla

Re: [talk-au] Our work in last two weeks

[Ben Kelley]

Personally I think that's a handy warning.

   - Ben



On Tue., 22 Jan. 2019, 07:25 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:

> On 22/01/19 02:45, Nemanja Bračko wrote:
>
> I agree on that, but that's the way how this tool works.
>
>
> So you will have to accept that the tool is wrong and ignore its output.
>
> Altering the map to comply with a tool that is wrong is wrong.
>
>
>
>
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[OSM-talk-be] Fwd: Open Belgium 2019: Call for Speakers + Early Bird Tickets!

[Ben Abelshausen]

Hi everyone!

In a few months we have Open Belgium again (yay!) and as usual we will have
talks about OSM (Belgium).  We invite everyone to submit a talk,
**anything** related to open-(something) is fine, that means openstreetmap
too! ;-) We will also organize a community day during the weekend this
year, more news about that later, so even if you can't make it on the 4th
of march we urge you to submit talks/workshops anyway. We can move them to
the community day later.

We will probably also have a booth with OSM Belgium and usually have a lot
of fun so don't miss it! If you want to attend but find the entry tickets
too expense get in touch with me, the community day will be free (to be
announced later).

All details here:

-- Forwarded message -
From: Astrid - Open Knowledge Belgium 
Date: Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 10:17 AM
Subject: Open Belgium 2019: Call for Speakers + Early Bird Tickets!
To: 


A must-attend conference to discuss the state of and current trends around
Open Knowledge and Open Data!

Open Belgium 2019 - 4 March in Brussels
Open Knowledge and Open Data in Belgium
View this email in your browser


Let's talk Open Knowledge and Open Data!
Ready for Open Belgium 2019?


The Belgian open knowledge and open data landscape is changing at a fast
pace. In order to stay up-to-date and to share insights with *300+ fellow
open enthusiasts,* we would like to invite you to join us at the
annual *community-driven
Open Belgium 2019
*
conference on *4 March in Brussels*.

Since you participated in previous editions of Open Belgium, you know
exactly what to expect: inspirational high-level keynote speakers, engaging
panel discussions, hands-on and minds-on workshops as well as an
interactive exhibition space.
Get your *Early Bird ticket* *now* and *save more than 30%!*
GET YOUR TICKET


*When?*
*Monday 4 March, 08:30-19:00*
Full programme available soon
*Where?*
*Herman Teirlinck Building*
Avenue du Port 88, 1000 Brussels

Link to Call for Speakers: http://2019.openbelgium.be/speakers


We are looking forward to seeing you at Open Belgium 2019!

The Open Belgium team





*Copyright © 2019 Open Knowledge Belgium, All rights reserved.*
You are receiving this email because you attended Open Belgium in the past.

*Our mailing address is:*
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Kantersteen 12
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Belgium

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Re: [talk-au] Mapping opportunities along the Great North Walk

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

It should be possible to make a single relation for it.

  - Ben.

On 27/12/18 15:45, Dion Moult wrote:

G'day all!

I've started walking the Great North Walk and was miffed that I couldn't
immediately find a good online map showing the full route from Sydney to
Newcastle. Instead I found incredibly difficult to navigate websites, paywalled
online maps, and maps split up into many smaller pages.

I decided to walk it myself and create a map for it here:

https://thinkmoult.com/map-of-the-great-north-walk-sydney-to-newcastle.html

Out of curiosity, I was wondering what things I can help map while I'm on this
route? I am not currently aware of a single "route" / multi-line in the OSM
database that describes the Great North Walk.

I considered mapping the sign posts, but they are quite plenty and probably of
little benefit.

Any ideas?


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Ben Laenen]

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 14:59 Marc Gemis  I suggested that, as I think it is an part of the ref. We do map "E19"
> as well, not just 19.
> I want to be able te reconstruct the sign as I see it during a survey.
>


Yeah but those words aren't very consistent in usage, do you take the
French words for Flemish roads because the Atlas was made in French for
that municipality? In the end there are only two types, a path and a road,
and there's no difference in a path being a sentier, pad, voetpad or
voetweg on one map from the 1800s.

Also, if you want what's on the map, you'd need to have "Sentier n° 117" as
well for example.

Ben
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Update Slow Roads conventions Belgium

[Ben Laenen]

One question I have: why are the words "chemin", "sentier", "voetweg" etc.
part of the vicinal_ref tag? Better just leave the number in there, the
type of road is in the vicinal_type tag.

Ben

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018, 12:33 Steven Clays  Hello,
>
> I made a slight overhaul of the slow roads Belgium page, based on the
> discussion of Friday December 14th. A new tagging scheme is also proposed,
> seperating vicinal_ref and oficial_vicinal_ref. Links are restored and some
> pictures added. Comments and improvements welcome.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Slowroads=1#Trage_wegen_Inventory
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Re: [talk-au] National Cycle Networks..

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

With regard to proliferation of dodgy routes, I am of the opinion that a
bike route should be verifiable.

I agree that the NCN doesn't really exist. Generally I don't remove the
tags, but I think I agree with you that in cases like this it could be
dangerous if you believed OSM.

 - Ben Kelley.



On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 12:00, Ian Sergeant  wrote:

> I've noticed over the past few years a National Cycle Network "creep"
> in Australia.
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] weird "excessive bounces" warnings from the list

[Ben Oliver]

On 18-10-01 20:54:13, Richard wrote:

Hi,

from time to time I am getting messages like

<>

Any idea.. what could be the cause? Unfortunately I don't see any way
to figure out which message did cause this.
I notice the first message I did not receive was
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2018-September/081459.html
but is this the "offending" message?

The messages go straight into a dedicated gmail inbox without any
filters.
As far as I know gmail will only ever reject messages that contain
what looks to it like executable programs - attached files
(*.exe, *.com, *.bat)

Richard


I'm on Midadu and I get these messages every few weeks on various 
mailing lists. I think it's to do with the way they handle spam. They 
let me whitelist addresses and it helps a little.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping Shropshire's rights of way

[Ben Proctor]

I'm not sure whether this is helpful but I wrote this earlier this year
with the help of the OS. It's an attempt to unpick some of the issues in
asking local authorities for mapping data.

https://medium.com/the-satori-lab/alpha-asking-your-council-for-mapping-data-b174a0875e42

Though we didn't have OSM contribution as a use case in mind when we wrote
it. I plan to revise it soon (this is rather overdue actually). Any
feedback that would make the next version helpful would be very gratefully
received.

On 4 September 2018 at 12:40, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

> Hello James,
>
> Please also take a look at the current OSMUK quarterly project which is
> highly relevant
> https://osmuk.org/quarterly-projects/ ...and consider joining the group.
>
> Regards,
>Jez
>
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 12:17 David Woolley, 
> wrote:
>
>> On 04/09/18 10:55, James wrote:
>> > The officer confirmed that Rights of Way data was in the
>> > public domain for any use.
>>
>> That's a bad sign, as it indicates that they don't understand UK
>> intellectual property law.  They only way that database rights can lapse
>> into the public domain is through the passage of time.
>>
>> There are two likely rights owners.  One is the council.  They need to
>> explicitly licence their data base right under the Open Government
>> Licence.  Any other licence needs to be approved centrally.
>>
>> The other is Ordnance Survey.  That normally means that any actual map
>> cannot be used, although, if licensed by the council, the narrative
>> description can be used.
>>
>> >
>> > Following some more research, I discovered rowmaps.com which has a
>> > database of Shropshire's RoW data from 2014. I contacted the owner,
>> > Barry, to enquire about this data. He is currently seeking a more
>> > up-to-date database for me.
>>
>> I believe there are concerns that a lot of this data has been lifted
>> from council web sites without getting appropriate licenses.  Typically
>> web sites are licensed for personal, non-commercial, use, but OSM
>> requires that the licence permit redistribution, and permit commercial
>> use.
>>
>> >
>> > Once I have this data, what would be the best way to make it available
>> > in OSM? Is it not considered accurate to directly import the data, or
>> > should it be used as a guide for a ground survey?
>>
>> Given that it is likely that the database rights on the actual
>> coordinates are owned by OS, and you will have to use the narrative
>> descriptions, you are going to have use other sources, and on the ground
>> surveys are always best, to fill in the details.  In any case, any
>> import needs to be checked to make sure it is consistent with existing
>> data (e.g. doesn't duplicate it, and is topologically consistent with
>> other features, even if they are not in their true, WGS-84, positions.
>>
>> Also, what many OSM users are interested in is mapping those public
>> rights of way that the council does not know about, as there is a
>> deadline looming after which only those known to the council will be
>> valid rights of way.
>> >
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
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>


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Re: [Talk-us] buggy buildings in Maryland

[Ben Discoe]

+1 to Elliot Plack's proposal to use Simplify to remove the redundant
nodes from the poor quality imported buildings.

In fact, I did this myself for another massive import: User "jumbanho"
imported buildings for the large city of Raleigh, NC back in January
2010.
There were lots of degenerate nodes, which I cleaned up in batches
using JOSM's simplify.  I did most of the cleanup in 2015.

-Ben
On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:30 AM Elliott Plack  wrote:
>
> Here's a potential fix: use the SimplifyArea JOSM Plugin. 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/SimplifyArea
>
> The plugin is built for fixing over-noded and buggy imports.
>
> As a test, I downloaded the plugin and then downloaded some of Annapolis 
> sailor's buildings.
>
> This building should only contain four nodes: 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/525751797
>
> This building should only contain eight nodes: 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/526209538
>
> The plugin successfully reduced the nodes for both buildings without 
> affecting the shape, unlike the simplify way tool.
>
> I tested it on a larger swath of 500 buildings and it took less than a second 
> to run.
>
> I haven't uploaded any of the changes yet, but I think this would be a good 
> path forward.
>
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 8:02 PM Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 08/16/2018 08:08 PM, Elliott Plack wrote:
>> > I'd say go ahead and remove the extraneous nodes
>>
>> This has now been done.
>>
>> > and also any buildings
>> > that are either version 0 or do not have any new tags (like names or
>> > addresses)
>>
>> It appears that of the 177,151 buildings still there, only 29,513 have
>> tags other than building=*. In most cases, these other tags are
>> addr:street and addr:housenumber.
>>
>> I'll let this rest for a bit to give others a chance to chime in.
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>> --
>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Ma petite présentation

[Ben C]

Salut,

bienvenue! Tu viens donc des Alpes ? :)

Le 23 juillet 2018 à 22:21, james  a écrit :

> Bonjour à tous,
>
> Je viens de m’inscrire à la liste de diffusion, et il me semble à avoir
> compris qu’une petite présentation serait bienvenue ;-)
> Depuis quelques mois je me plonge dans OSM avec joie, d’abord pousser par
> mon job au sein d'une agence web, puis par passion par quelques villages
> perdus dans les Alpes. Voilà, je m’arrête là :-)
>
> Jim005
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Mappen van spoorweginfrastructuur

[Ben Laenen]

On Saturday, 30 June 2018 08:24:30 CEST Wouter Hamelinck wrote:
> 1. Dat is niet "de wiki", maar de individuele pagina van 1 enkele (erg
> geapprecieerde) gebruiker

Er zijn toen zoveel discussies over geweest dat ik het ergens heb geprobeerd 
toen van eens een lijn te zetten zodat er minstens consequent gemapt werd, 
niet dat je 10 mappers een situatie laat mappen en je 10 verschillende 
resultaten krijgt. Daar kan je als gebruiker niks mee aanvangen, want wat 
betekenen bepaalde tags dan in OSM? Wat ik toen heb geschreven is zeker niet 
ideaal, maar in elk geval wel al om iets te hebben om dan later als er meer 
eensgezindheid is vanuit verder te vertrekken. Van de internationale community 
kwam ook niet welke richting moet uitgegaan worden, mappen we het fysieke ding 
of houden we rekening met het gebruik ervan, de meningen zijn verdeeld. Ik heb 
in mijn poging dan zoveel mogelijk het gebruik in rekening gehouden om de 
access tags (waar het dan hoofdzakelijk om te doen was) zo eenvoudig mogelijk 
te hebben, maar dat bleef uiteraard allemaal mijn voorstel. Ik heb veel van 
die pagina's geschreven in de poging , maar ik ben ook maar ik dus niemand 
moet zich aan die dingen houden :-)

mvg
Ben




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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Mappen van spoorweginfrastructuur

[Ben Laenen]

On Saturday, 23 June 2018 19:12:22 CEST Ruben wrote:
> Er zijn veel verschillende soorten seinen, en dat verschilt dan ook nog eens
> per land. Eimai is begonnen aan een schema voor de Belgische seinen (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Eimai/Railway ), maar het sluit
> niet zo goed aan bij de internationale standaarden daarrond. In Duitsland
> staan ze daar veel verder mee. Er zijn er daar ook al heel veel gemapt, in
> België nog zo goed als geen.

Ik was er eens mee begonnen, maar het is zoveel werk, en veel van de 
informatie kan je ook niet aflezen van zo'n sein, dan moet je de officiële 
plannen al bekijken, of dus al treinbestuurder zijn dat je het gewoon weet.

Internationale standaarden zijn erg moeilijk in de spoorwegwereld, er zijn 
terugkerende elementen in alle landen (algemeen bijvoorbeeld: seinen die 
kunnen opleggen om te stoppen, seinen die iets zeggen over het volgende 
sein...), maar de reglementeringen en seinstelsels zijn vaak zo verschillend 
dat het erg moeilijk is om gemeenschappelijke grond te vinden, en wat de 
Duitsers hebben gemaakt van taggingschema is gewoon op zijn Duits. Echt niet 
triviaal om daar Belgische reglementering in te passen. Een regime kennen ze 
daar niet, van grote en kleine beweging ook niet, en dat zijn al de 
basisbegrippen in België.

Dat gezegd zijnde, zelfs al hebben we ooit een taggingschema uitgewerkt, het 
is erg veel werk om die dingen te mappen, en ik ben er niet echt van overtuigd 
of het al dat werk waard is. Als treinbestuurder zou ik het leuk vinden 
natuurlijk, maar het is niet alsof we met die informatie veel kunnen/mogen 
doen tijdens het rijden...

Ben




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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi Adam

That makes sense to me. So for example..?

name - Caernarfon
name:cy - Caernarfon
old_name:en Carnarvon

Cheers

Ben




On 24 March 2018 at 21:17, Adam Snape <adam.c.sn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think Ben's suggestion is sensible where there is a consistent and clear
> preference.
>
> As name:en is for the standard English name, I suggest avoiding using that
> tag for English names where the Welsh name is now also the more common one
> used in English. That said, I think avriant names are always worth adding.
> I would suggest using alt_name (if a name is still used by some) or
> old_name (if it is now out of usage).
>
> Regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 16:04, Ben Proctor <b...@satorilab.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it
>> was in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project
>> in Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
>> Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
>> https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm
>> in Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue
>> this work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in
>> Wales. Here are the blogs about the project in English
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/
>>
>> We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
>> project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
>> section of the Wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org
>> /wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>>
>> I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and
>> Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by
>> their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in
>> Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and
>> Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. *
>>
>> *In general the name tag should contain the name generally used when
>> communicating in English. In some cases this will be the Welsh name. If in
>> doubt look for local usage / signage.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Where possible please add a name:cy which is the name in Welsh for the
>> place. Please add this tag even if the name tag uses the name in Welsh.It
>> may also be helpful to add a name:en, especially if the name tag uses the
>> name in Welsh.*
>>
>> *Examples:*
>> *name - Swansea*
>> *name:cy - Abertawe*
>>
>> *name - Caernarfon*
>> *name:cy - Caernarfon*
>>
>> *name - Heol Eglyws*
>> *name:cy - Heol Eglyws*
>> *name:en - Church Road*
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 August 2017 at 14:10, Adam Snape <adam.c.sn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The 'best mapping method' is somewhat subjective. If it were the sole
>>> criteria, then we would instantly create documentation to replace lots of
>>> the less than ideal tags which have developed and explicitly depreciate
>>> either the classic (highway=footway/bridleway/cycleway) or
>>> 'alternative' (highway= path, access=*) tagging schemes. We don't because
>>> there is no consensus and existing use counts for a lot.
>>>
>>> If there is genuine consensus upon a better way then perhaps this should
>>> be documented. In the absence of such consensus, documenting how we
>>> actually currently map is preferable (because it is already prevalent and
>>> verifiable) to not documentating or documenting one school of thought on
>>> how we ought to map (but don't yet).
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On 16 August 2017 at 11:20, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not
>>>>>> dictate how they should map.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method,
>>>>> not what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for 
>>>>> example!).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi Miguel

Thanks for the thoughts.

Personally I'm against bilingual labelling though I recognise that this is
common and uncontroversial in other parts of OSM.

My thought process has been like this:

   - There is no single name for many places. In Wales most places have a
   name that they are called when communicating in English and a name that
   they are called when communicating in Welsh. In neither language are both
   names used.
   - So the most important thing is that we label them with the English and
   Welsh name tags.
   - What then should we include in the "name" tag? Including both
   alternates seems, at first sight, like an attractive solution.
   - But what about the city of Henffordd or the town of Amwythig? They
   have Welsh names and English names so the logic would be to use both in the
   name tag. Except Hereford - Henffordd and Shrewsbury - Amwythig are in
   England and, I suspect, there would not be support to use bilingual names
   in OSM outside of the current boundary of Wales. I don't challenge that but
   I'd see it as a political judgement about the boundaries of Wales and the
   status of the Welsh language within the United Kingdom rather than a
   mapping decision.
   - In the UK generally "name" refers to the name by which it is known
   when communicating in English. It seems most straightforward, and least
   politically fraught, to me to continue this practice in Wales,.
   - The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which is correct.
   In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and name:en are correct then the
   value of "name" should become less significant. Then it can be up to the
   user to decide if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and if both
   which language taking priority).

To address your specific question [3] what I would do when seeing a panel
displaying the Welsh and English name would be to add the values to name:en
and name:cy and then add one of those to the name tag. The choice of which
one to add to the name tag would be:
- if I know which one is used when communicating in English, choose that
- of I don't know, choose the Welsh name

But I'd be interested to understand more about the practice used in other
bilingual/multilingual nations on OSM.

Cheers

Ben


On 23 March 2018 at 23:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo <msevill...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Great initiative! Congratulations Ben,
>
> I'm sure you have more knowledge than me about the use of Welsh but I'd
> considerate an other the option for your propose for the generic "name"
> tag: the bilingual one.
>
> So, as I suggested last summer [1], and it was in the previous edition of
> the wiki, I'd use, for some situations (e.g. Aberytwyth street names) both
> languages in "name" tag with a "/" as separation following the indications
> and panels you could see in the field [2]. I guess It is a neutral an a
> real bilingual approach for a non English or Welsh render of OSM maps.
>
> What do you expect if I'm editing OSM in the ground and I see a bilingual
> panels to fill for the name tag? Well, I did what I saw: a bilingual name
> as you could see in other bilingual places of the World like Basque Country
> [3].
>
> Cheers
>
> Miguel
>
> [1] follow this threat from the beginning: https://lists.openstreetmap.
> org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020465.html
> [2] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA
> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Spain
>
> --
> *Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
> Doctor en Geografía
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 17:04, Ben Proctor <b...@satorilab.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it
>> was in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project
>> in Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
>> Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
>> https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm
>> in Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue
>> this work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in
>> Wales. Here are the blogs about the project in English
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/
>>
>> We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
>> project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
>> section of the Wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org
>> /wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>>
>> I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Wa

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi all

I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it was
in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project in
Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm in
Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue this
work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in Wales.
Here are the blogs about the project in English
http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/

We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
section of the Wiki
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales

I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.

Cheers

Ben






*Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and
Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by
their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in
Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and
Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. *

*In general the name tag should contain the name generally used when
communicating in English. In some cases this will be the Welsh name. If in
doubt look for local usage / signage.*



*Where possible please add a name:cy which is the name in Welsh for the
place. Please add this tag even if the name tag uses the name in Welsh.It
may also be helpful to add a name:en, especially if the name tag uses the
name in Welsh.*

*Examples:*
*name - Swansea*
*name:cy - Abertawe*

*name - Caernarfon*
*name:cy - Caernarfon*

*name - Heol Eglyws*
*name:cy - Heol Eglyws*
*name:en - Church Road*



On 16 August 2017 at 14:10, Adam Snape <adam.c.sn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The 'best mapping method' is somewhat subjective. If it were the sole
> criteria, then we would instantly create documentation to replace lots of
> the less than ideal tags which have developed and explicitly depreciate
> either the classic (highway=footway/bridleway/cycleway) or 'alternative'
> (highway= path, access=*) tagging schemes. We don't because there is no
> consensus and existing use counts for a lot.
>
> If there is genuine consensus upon a better way then perhaps this should
> be documented. In the absence of such consensus, documenting how we
> actually currently map is preferable (because it is already prevalent and
> verifiable) to not documentating or documenting one school of thought on
> how we ought to map (but don't yet).
>
> Adam
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 11:20, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:
>>
>>> On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>>
>>>>   The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not dictate
>>>> how they should map.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method, not
>>> what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for example!).
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> DaveF
>>
>>
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*The Satori Lab*, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK

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Re: [OSM-talk] Everything is a tertiary road

[Ben Discoe]

Stephan,

I can see you are correct that user "4719341" created thousands of
roads which are incorrectly tagged tertiary.  Looking at the aerial,
almost all of them should be correctly tagged "unclassified" or
"track"; very few are actual tertiaries.  They did this across almost
the entire Magway Region
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5996479/)

Of course the best thing would be to try to contact the user and get
them to fix their own tags (and of course, any future roads that they
make).  If that does not prove possible or they are unwilling, then a
possible answer to "how can this be repaired", is:

1. Load the whole Magway region into JOSM.
2. Find their work using a search (type:way user:4719341
highway:tertiary) (I did this, and found around 17,000 results)
3. Mass-change those ways to unclassified.
4. In a subsequent manual pass, correct the tagging to track (perhaps
30% of their work) and actual tertiary (perhaps 2%).

That way, only a minority of the roads would have to be manually
changed, because unclassified is correct for the majority.
Naturally, we should wait to hear from the user first.

-Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk] Donation from the Pineapple Fund

[Ben Oliver]

On 18-03-05 12:21:22, Dave F wrote:
I've very little knowledge or even interest in Bitcoin, but was it 
converted into hard currency? If not, is it worth much now?


DaveF


I'm curious too. Quite a few projects got a big chunk of change just as 
the price of BTC went down.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Danger zone for pedestrians

[Ben Oliver]

On 18-03-05 13:00:10, Richard wrote:

On Mon, Mar 05, 2018 at 11:10:40AM +0100, Tom Pfeifer wrote:


Besides the verifiability problem, such tagging would discriminate one
demographic group against another, and increase the cultural bias in OSM.


where does such political correctness end? Consider that mapping
brothels, landfills, busy roads and many other features will allow
someone to draw conclusions about the socioeconomic status of the
Area. Most of the time you can deduce income status purely by
the geometry of houses and roads.

Richard


Surely then that is enough and we shouldn't need to flag 'dangerous' 
areas?


I think if you were to do something like this you would have to underpin 
it with crime stats or something.


As a semi-off-topic aside - this was actually the subject of an episode 
of 'The Good Wife'...!


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Re: [Talk-il] Hebrew maps for Garmin

[Ben Katz]

Did you try http://openmtbmap.org?

On 6 Feb 2018, 00:51 +0200, Dov Ber Ackerman , wrote:
> Hello I am trying to find an updated map of Israel for a Garmin device for a 
> friend, but they are all in English so the hebrew search does not work.!! Are 
> there any recently (last 2 years etc.) updated maps for Israel that would 
> work or can be converted to an .img file?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Dov Ber
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Re: [Talk-us] Rural US: Correcting Original TIGER Imported Ways

[Ben Miller]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:48 AM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> Does your state have a problem? Run the following overpass query to find
> out:
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/w74 - just replace "Washington"  Need help
> creating a Maproulette Challenge - just ask.
>

I've done a fair amount of TIGER touch-up in Michigan, but there's still a
lot of work left to be done, and this looks like a great way to get a
handle on it. One issue: Due to the automated name expansion that was done
on untouched TIGER ways a few years ago (which I think only affected roads
in the eastern US?) a lot of these ways have bot-mode as their most recent
user, rather than DaveHansenTiger. (1)

The catch is that sometimes the name expansion changed the name after a
human mapper had edited the way, so it wouldn't always be valid right to
include ways where bot-mode is the most recent editor. (2) I think if
bot-mode is the most recent editor and the way has only two versions, then
it should be in effect an untouched TIGER way, but I'm not sure how to get
Overpass-turbo to pull that info out.

Any suggestions?

1. Like this one: https://pewu.github.io/osm-history/#/way/17859200
2. For example: https://pewu.github.io/osm-history/#/way/17862968
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Re: [talk-au] How to map CBD boundaries?

[Ben Kelley]

I think the problem is that there is no official boundary for things like
"greater metropolitan area", and so I think this is to be expected.

We only have the suburb/town, and also the LGA.

e.g. The suburb of "Sydney" is quite small compared to what people consider
the city of Sydney to be. Is an address in the suburb next door in
"Sydney"? Officially no, although colloquially maybe yes.

 - Ben.

On 5 February 2018 at 14:15, Joel H. <95.5.ra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I just downloaded an export of NSW boundary data from OSM. Now in this
> dataset a locality called "Tweed Heads" has been included, The problem is
> that is area only covers the CBD and not the city (including all suburbs)
> as a whole.
>
> How should I go about mapping this CBD boundary?
>
> Also if anyone who handled the imports can send across an OSM file
> containing only the city limits, or could add them, would be great!
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] temporary cycle routes

[Ben Abelshausen]

In London some of the routes are mapped as proposed, it's a bit annoying if
you don't know that they are just proposed and not actually there:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6691788

Rendering is a dotted version of the normal line on the cycle layer:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.54524/-0.01871=C

So, not sure if we should be mapping this if they don't exist yet... but if
it's an 'official' detour why not? Some of these routes are only virtual
anyway and not signed at all.

Cheers,
Ben

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 2:55 PM, joost schouppe <joost.schou...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I got an interesting question today. As the Flemish "fietsostrades"
> (fietssnelwegen, or cycle highways) are taking shape, so they are being
> mapped in OSM. People are already using the data, even though in reality,
> this is till very much a project.
>
> In more and more places, parts are completely ready, but then just stop.
> And in some cases, there is an "official detour" of the fietsostrade. So
> while the infrastructure is not there yet, in a sense the route is already
> there.
>
> How do you think this should be mapped, if at all?
>
> --
> Joost Schouppe
> OpenStreetMap <http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/joost%20schouppe/> |
> Twitter <https://twitter.com/joostjakob> | LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/joost-schouppe/48/939/603> | Meetup
> <http://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Belgium/members/97979802/>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Routing through a park that doesn't have actual paths

[Ben Kelley]

I noticed in ridethecity.com (which uses OSM data) that where there is an
area that says bicycle=yes, it will route you around the edges of the area
(as if it was a circular way).

 - Ben.

On 1 February 2018 at 07:47, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A 'well known' routing problem.
>
> Exists for areas of concrete too ... I think if you tag an area as
> pedestrian, or as steps .. routes will not go across them.
> For an area of steps the bottom, top and sides can have ways that are
> paths ... that gets around the routing issue.
> In the longer term routes should solve the problem .. they don't see it as
> an urgent issue as there are not many people using pedestrian routing.
>
>
> On 01-Feb-18 01:45 AM, Jonathon Rossi wrote:
>
> It appears that this is a long standing enhancement request for
> GraphHopper:
> https://github.com/graphhopper/graphhopper/issues/82
>
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:17 AM Jonathon Rossi <j...@jonorossi.com> wrote:
>
>> To clarify, both Google Maps and Strava routing can't do this either, I
>> was trying to work out if OSM could do this.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:10 AM Jonathon Rossi <j...@jonorossi.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In the past I've mapped exactly what I've surveyed on the ground in
>>> local parks, however I've recently been using the OSM routing feature
>>> rather than from other services and I've discovered it can't route directly
>>> across a park that is just grass.
>>>
>>> In the following example, I've mapped:
>>> - the short grass track (eastern side) that council are likely
>>> inadvertently making each time they bring vehicles through the gate to mow
>>> the park (the rest of the park boundary has timber bollards),
>>> - trails that lead from the Greater Glider Conservation Area out into
>>> the park, the small bit of the "Trail Circuit" in the park isn't actually a
>>> well defined path it just opens up but it isn't grass and the amount of
>>> trees keep it path like
>>> - other well formed paths that lead out to roads
>>>
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=graphhopper_
>>> foot=-27.54259%2C153.22173%3B-27.54227%2C153.21904#
>>> map=18/-27.54200/153.22056
>>>
>>> The OSM Wiki states:
>>>
>>> > Ways (highway=path or highway=footway) leading into a park from a
>>> road, should always be connected to the road for routing purposes. It's
>>> debatable whether they should connect to the park area with a shared node,
>>> or cross over the polygon without connecting. TODO discuss
>>> > (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure=park)
>>>
>>> If a park is just a big grass area (with maybe a few obstacles like a
>>> playground) then it feels like the responsibility of the routing engine to
>>> just do this (maybe with an access tag to say it is okay to do so). It
>>> feels wrong for us mappers to map a "grass" path through the park from each
>>> entrance that we feel is a main thoroughfare.
>>>
>>> Am I missing something, have others "fixed" this problem elsewhere?
>>>
>>> Jono
>>>
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] railways and stations

[Ben Laenen]

Your message was directly sent to my spam box for some reason...

On Saturday, 20 January 2018 14:27:39 CET Stijn Rombauts wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am rewriting the conventions page about railways [1]. It was a bit
> outdated...A few questions:- I kept the convention about the name ("L"
> followed by the number of the line, e.g. L25). But I noticed it hasn't been
> followed in many places (often 25 or L.25).

That's a small issue, our railways don't use the same convention everywhere, 
and you can find both L.25 and L25. When I started redrawing the railways in 
Belgium I ended up using L.25, whereas I've now started to think that ref=L25 
is the better option, and would fit in more with the other refs being used on 
junctions etc.

We just need to decide on one and keep using that. I'd now vote on L25.

> Do we keep this convention or
> not? The HSL/LGV lines have been given other names like "Ligne Nouvelle 1"
> or "LGV 3 - HSL 3". What do we do these?

The names shouldn't really be there, but I guess they don't do much harm. 
Their refs are ref=L.1 or L1 etc, no HSL or LGV in ref numbers.

> - The relations usually have a
> ref=L.25. (with the point). Still OK?

Same answer as above.

> - Some switches/junctions have a name
> (e.g. Y Val-Benoit) and are tagged as railway=junction. But this page [2]
> seems to suggest that railway=switch is a better tag. Or do we keep the
> railway=junction tag for named switches/junctions?

railway=junction is for a single node somewhere near the area where one or 
more switches are located. Their name should be something like 
name=Y.Abeelstraat (with a dot there), their reference is for example 
ref=YABLS without a dot.

railway=switch is for one single switch, they've got no names, only a 
reference, like ref=05AM.


> - Railway stations: I
> guess we're supposed to follow the rules/guidelines in this page [3]? Or do
> we have other opinions? E.g. in Visé [4] the tag railway=station has been
> used 3 times...

There should only be a single node tagged as railway=station.


> - Do we keep the distinction between railway=station and
> railway=halt. As more and more stations (=buildings) are closed, it seems
> to me that the distinction between the two has become quite vague.

There are a lot of definitions going around. In the railway definition a 
station would need a switch and allow a train to depart from. That would make 
Brussels-Central not a station... But in the end it's just better to tag them 
all railway=station.

Ben


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Open Belgium

[Ben Abelshausen]

Hi Nicolas,

A talk like the one you propose is very welcome, just submit it via the
form here:

http://2018.openbelgium.be/speakers

As for the rest, most of that we already have but maybe it's not that
visible or could be improved, we have a meetup in Brussels next week, feel
free to join:

https://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Belgium/events/246652801/

Cheers,
Ben

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Nicolas Pettiaux <nico...@pettiaux.be>
wrote:

> Hi Joost and the other members of the list,
>
> I would like to talk about a project I am resuming to work on : mapping
> the depth of the sea, at least the Belgian coast. This is part of
> OpenSeaMap.
>
> I would also like to talk about the applications maps.me and
> StreetComplete that can be of daily use, that are very convenient and
> easy. StreetComplete is an easy way to help improve OSM
>
> I think having a discussion of OSM enthusiats about the future
> activities around OSM in Belgium would be good, as well as having a
> yearly planning of all the activities known today that could be
> interesting (eg. Fosdem in February, then OpenBelgium, then some HOT
> activities like last year possibly then Educode.be ...)
>
> Regards,
>
> Nicolas
>
> Le 10/01/18 à 09:21, joost schouppe a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > The next Open Belgium conference is coming up, bringing together the
> > entire "open community" of Belgium. It's not just about official open
> > data providers and users, but also open knowledge, open source, and of
> > course us, OpenStreetMap in Belgium.
> >
> > http://2018.openbelgium.be/
> >
> > Since OpenStreetMap Belgium is one of the working groups of Open
> > Knowledge Belgium, we can do stuff during the conference. What we do, is
> > up to you! If you've done anything with regards to OSM that you would
> > like to share, now is the time. For now, the deadline for proposals is
> > this Sunday. Early bird tickets also end soon (though send me a PM if
> > ticket price is an issue). So time for action!
> >
> > Things we were thinking about ourselves:
> > - talk about OSM Belgium, organisational as well as our projects
> > - maybe some of escada's projects, like what the Fietsersbond has been
> up to
> > - the GBB import
> > - Trage Wegen (they always do cool stuff with OSM and open knowledge
> > creation)
> > - last year's Open Summer of Code students
> > - have that long overdue landuse debate
> > - an introduction to humanitarian mapping
> > - [ your proposal here ]
> >
> > Don't be shy, don't hesitate to contact me or commun...@osm.be
> > <mailto:commun...@osm.be> with questions. Hope to see you there!
> >
> >
> > --
> > Joost Schouppe
> > OpenStreetMap
> > <http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/joost%20schouppe/> | Twitter
> > <https://twitter.com/joostjakob> | LinkedIn
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/pub/joost-schouppe/48/939/603> | Meetup
> > <http://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Belgium/members/97979802/>
> >
> >
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> >
>
> --
> *Nicolas Pettiaux* PhD, AESS, EMM - Tel +32 496 24 55 01
> Maître-assistant - École supérieure d'informatique - ESI
> http://esi-bru.be Haute école Bruxelles-Brabant - HE2B - http://he2b.be
> Laboratories of Image, Signal processing & Acoustics - ULB
> http://lisa.ulb.ac.be/ *http://EduCode.be - Conférence internationale
> sur l'enseignement et le codage, Bozar, Bruxelles, 27-29 août 2018*
> *http://EduCode.be - An international conference on teaching and coding,
> Bozar, Brussels, 27-29 August 2018*
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[Ben Abelshausen]

Hi Nicolas,

Welcome back on this list, it has been a while! ;-) Thanks for taking this
on.

I have the impression that working openly with the community is for many
> organizations a difficult step to consider and manage.
>
> I think that the human relationships play an extremely important part in
> the success or failure of the use of technology, here the data.
>
> May I suggest that the SIAMU invite the active members of this thread of

discussion for a physical (in person) meeting on their premises.


This is (part of) why we started OSM Belgium. I'm sure we can setup
something where we meet face-to-face. I suggest emailing community -at-
osm.be and we can work from there. We'll invite whoever is interested from
the OSM community to come along.

@glenn: When I have a little more time I'll try to explain on Riot what I
mean ;-)

Cheers,
Ben

2017-11-27 23:29 GMT+00:00 Nicolas Pettiaux <nico...@pettiaux.be>:

> Dear all
>
> Together with Marc Ducobu as other member of the « OSM community » I
> have attended a meeting organized at VIAS (the former IBSR) by Herbert
> Hansen with representatives from the Siamu, Police and other (see mail
> here below).
>
> I have the impression that working openly with the community is for many
> organizations a difficult step to consider and manage.
>
> I think that the human relationships play an extremely important part in
> the success or failure of the use of technology, here the data.
>
> May I suggest that the SIAMU invite the active members of this thread of
> discussion for a physical (in person) meeting on their premises.
>
> As I suggested to the SIAMU, and as they have done with the very
> interesting exchange initiated by Nadia Poncelet, working openly with
> the community that is striving to address cases of general concerns and
> general interest, would be profitable.
>
> Maybe Mr Hansen who worked with GIS data a lot and now helps
> institutions with projects could help in making sure that such a meeting
> is profitable for all parties (aka SIamu and OSM).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Nicolas
>
>
> ==
>
>
> Bonjour,
>
>
>
> Pour rappel vous êtes inscrit(s) au workshop ayant pour thème la
> mobilité - sécurité routière et innovation géospatiale.
>
>
>
> Le workshop sera organisé le 27/11/2017 de 9 :30 à 13 :00 (lunch
> inclus).  Adresse du jour : VIAS, Haachtsesteenweg/Chaussée de Haecht
> 1405, 1130 Brussels
>
>
>
> L’objectif de ce workshop est:
>
> 1.  réunir les professionnels de ce secteur et
> recueillir leurs besoins en la matière,
>
> 2.  présenter l’état de l’art en technologies géospatiales
>
> 3.  mutualiser/consolider les besoins de toutes les
> organisations présentes,
>
> de manière à envisager, en réponse à ces besoins,  une solution
> rationnelle intégrant les techniques géo-spatiales.
>
>
>
> Pour votre information nous avons le plaisir de réunir des représentants
> de VIAS, la Police Fédérale, les pompiers de Bruxelles, la communauté
> Open Street Map, le pôle Logistics in Wallonia, l’UWE, L’Université de
> Liège, etc.
>
>
>
> Cette matinée a été conçue sous forme d’un atelier de travail, votre
> présence est donc nécessaire pendant toute sa durée.
>
>
>
> Je vous remercie encore pour votre participation. N’hésitez pas à me
> contacter si avez la moindre questions.
>
>
>
> Au plaisir de collaborer avec vous lundi prochain,
>
>
>
> Herbert HANSEN
>
> Project manager
>
>
> Rue Bois Saint Jean, 15/1 | B-4102 Seraing, Belgium
>
> Web : www.wsl.be l www.fabspace.eu
>
>
>
>
>
> SSS_mobility_27nov2017_bis.jpg
>
>
> --
> *Dr Nicolas Pettiaux*- nico...@pettiaux.be**
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[Ben Abelshausen]

I think this problem can be solved with OpenLR, or at least to a level of
acceptable quality comparable to mapping the ID's in OSM. I'm willing to
help out with that, how that would work for examples for brussels:

OpenLR, encodes a location on a network in a kind of ID like this:

KwMXmiQm5xt0Af+x/79bBGY=

This decodes into a segment like this:

http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMXmiQm5xt0Af+x/79bBGY=

In your internal database you keep the code above, and link the streetname
to that segment, the segment always decodes no matter who updates the map
or the ID's of the OSM ways. As long as the road still exists the code will
work. It's a perfect way to associate data to a road network for cars (or
in this case firetrucks) without having a dependency on the network ID's or
mapped ID's on the network.

Other examples:

http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMXuCQnBSOKAQB6/76jGoQ=
http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMaESQmxiOVBP9E/zOjBaw=
http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMZgSQmHSOaBP+mANRjEUQ=

Generating codes can be done by just clicking on the map if you want to
generate your own.

All this software is open-source and can be setup locally.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Best regards,

Ben Abelshausen

On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Jo <winfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If I  understood correctly every single street name of the Netherlands is
> already in Wikidata.
>
> 2017-11-23 14:31 GMT+01:00 joost schouppe <joost.schou...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Jo,
>> Does Urbis hold the same authority about the correct street name as CRAB
>> does in Flanders? I've understood there might not be a single authoritaive
>> list for Brussels, but I'm not sure.
>> Do you have an idea on how it would actually work on this scale with
>> Wikidata? Do you know of some projects that use Wikidata on that scale? I'm
>> asking because I think Agentschap Informatie Vlaanderen might be really
>> interested in linking their data to Wikidata, and from there to OSM. It
>> helps that it allows for a single datamodel for any country that uses
>> street names. And thus for one single QA tool to keep street names valid
>> anywhere that model is used.
>>
>> 2017-11-22 22:11 GMT+01:00 Jo <winfi...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Urbis released all the data for the Brussels region several years ago,
>>> so it should be possible to use that data like we use CRAB in Flanders.
>>>
>>> My personal preference would be to work with wikidata identifiers for
>>> every street in and around Brussels.
>>>
>>> Polyglot
>>>
>>> 2017-11-22 21:09 GMT+01:00 joost schouppe <joost.schou...@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Hi Nadia,
>>>>
>>>> Nice to see you here!
>>>>
>>>> I've played with the idea of unique identifiers for OSM objects myself
>>>> before. But it remains controversial in the international community (not so
>>>> much in Belgium). Here's an article I wrote long long time ago about it.
>>>> It's especially useful for the comments, which outline some of the problems
>>>> with my idea [1].
>>>> Also relevant to get a feel for the issues is when this proposition for
>>>> a global reviews database was discussed. Possibilities for linking were
>>>> investigated, and adding external IDs got quite a bit of headwind.
>>>>
>>>> There has been a discussion about wikidata recently that turned so big
>>>> that I couldn't follow at all. But at least until recently, there seemed to
>>>> be an openness towards adding wikidata unique IDs. I don't know enough
>>>> about it to have a real opinion, but to me it sounds elegant to translate
>>>> an official source of streetnames into wikidata objects, then adding that
>>>> identifier to OSM. Maybe those more versed in Wikidata can explain.
>>>>
>>>> That said, I'm not sure your proposed solution is the most simple
>>>> solution to the problem. Given that streetnames are given by the
>>>> government, in theory there is one and only possible way of writing the
>>>> name. In Flanders, that would be the CRAB name. In the very few cases where
>>>> CRAB is still wrong (or more to the point: the sign in the street says
>>>> something slightly different than what CRAB says), you could have
>>>> name="Name on the Street Sign" and something like name_official="Name in
>>>> CRAB". In that situation, the problem is different: how do make sure all
>>>> the street names are and stay correct in OSM. By coincidence, we are
>>>> actually working towards doing something like that. In the scope

Re: [Talk-GB] Welsh language map

[Ben Proctor]

On 15 November 2017 at 14:38, SK53 <sk53@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Ben,
>
> Good to hear.
>
> I actually have a version of Carto-CSS which displays welsh names when
> present. It merely replaces all instances of name in the Carto-CSS queries
> with a more complicated bit of SQL. For complicated logistical reasons I
> haven't uploaded this to github, but can put aside some time to do so now.
> The style also has blue motorways!
>

Hi Jerry



That's excellent. Especially the motorways :-)


>
> Less successfully I have been trying to create a welsh name transparent
> overlay. This would be useful for places like Leicester Liverpool and
> London which have Welsh names but are outside the principality. A full set
> of tiles covering the UK for a handful of names is overkill. Apart from
> styling issues (finding colours and offsets which are legible with the main
> carto style), the biggest issue is names of areas which are multi-line and
> of variable size, and therefore more or less impossible to offset so that
> both the Welsh name & the name on the Carto style are visible.
>

There are a number of things we'd like to get into once we've done this bit:
- the idea of creating a Welsh language Atlas of the UK and the world is
very attractive (but definitely a phase 2 development)
- the discussion about how to handle English and Welsh side by side is
something to work through. Though there is a use case for a Welsh language
only render there are also use cases for Bilingual renders. (phase 2 again)
a transparent overlay sounds like a very interesting angle...


>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry
>
> On 15 November 2017 at 13:31, Ben Proctor <b...@satorilab.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> The Welsh Government announced yesterday a grant to ODI-Cardiff to fund
>> some work around the Welsh language on OSM.
>>
>> This is our announcement
>>
>> In English http://cardiff.theodi.org/2017/11/14/map-i-gymru/
>> and in Welsh http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/2017/11/14/map-i-gymru/
>>
>> In the way of these things, the funding application was put together at
>> the last minute and, though we heard a couple of weeks ago that we would be
>> getting the grant we couldn't talk about it publicly until yesterday.
>>
>> We hope to:
>> - create a Welsh language tileserver (building on the excellent cysom
>> project)
>> - do some work to encourage tagging in the Welsh language and to
>> encourage more mapping in Wales
>> - encourage organisations in Wales (including the public sector) to make
>> more use of OSM including by demonstrating one or two simple Welsh
>> language uses
>>
>> The funding covers a project until end of March and we will also be
>> looking for opportunities for ongoing funding/support to keep the server
>> infrastructure viable into the medium term.
>>
>> We have contacted a few people off list to talk about this project but
>> I'm conscious that there are people who have been very actively mapping in
>> Wales for some time who we haven't had the chance to contact.
>>
>> We really hope to work with the whole community on this. Any suggestions,
>> insights, ideas, "definitely don't do this..." experiences etc would be
>> very gratefully received.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> --
>> Ben Proctor
>> ODI-Cardiff / The Satori Lab
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>>
>


-- 
Ben Proctor
Technical Director
b...@satorilab.org | @likeaword | 07904 1234 98
*The Satori Lab*, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK


The Satori Lab Ltd is a company registered in Wales.
Registered number: 8857719.
Registered office: 22 Windsor Place, Cardiff, CF10 3BY
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[Talk-GB] Welsh language map

[Ben Proctor]

Hi all

The Welsh Government announced yesterday a grant to ODI-Cardiff to fund
some work around the Welsh language on OSM.

This is our announcement

In English http://cardiff.theodi.org/2017/11/14/map-i-gymru/
and in Welsh http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/2017/11/14/map-i-gymru/

In the way of these things, the funding application was put together at the
last minute and, though we heard a couple of weeks ago that we would be
getting the grant we couldn't talk about it publicly until yesterday.

We hope to:
- create a Welsh language tileserver (building on the excellent cysom
project)
- do some work to encourage tagging in the Welsh language and to encourage
more mapping in Wales
- encourage organisations in Wales (including the public sector) to make
more use of OSM including by demonstrating one or two simple Welsh language
uses

The funding covers a project until end of March and we will also be looking
for opportunities for ongoing funding/support to keep the server
infrastructure viable into the medium term.

We have contacted a few people off list to talk about this project but I'm
conscious that there are people who have been very actively mapping in
Wales for some time who we haven't had the chance to contact.

We really hope to work with the whole community on this. Any suggestions,
insights, ideas, "definitely don't do this..." experiences etc would be
very gratefully received.

Cheers

-- 
Ben Proctor
ODI-Cardiff / The Satori Lab
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] road completion project

[Ben Abelshausen]

You know I probably agree with most of the 'mapping based on imagery'
remarks! ;-)

It's on our feature request list for maproulette to limit to area and yes
joost has a map with all the differences so you can use that (it's in fact
the background map in maproulette) but the big advantage of maproulette is
the ability to log false-positives. This way we can re-run the comparison
without having the false positives coming back every time.

You can go to the overview of the challenge (what you call 'task', the
collection of all wegenregister cases) by selecting the little 'cogs' on
the top right and then click 'view challenge', then you get all the little
task on one big map. This way you can select tasks  in your area.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Best regards,

Ben Abelshausen

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Marc Gemis <marc.ge...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It would be nice if I could find limit the "tasks" to an area I'm
> really familiar with or that I have surveyed. I know Joost has a map
> somewhere that shows the differences.
> But I might easily fix all the problems in my town without leaving the
> computer right now.
> I know this is not how MapRoulette works, but would be nice for this task.
>
> wanted to write something about "mapping based on imagery", but I want
> to keep it decent :-)
>
> m.
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 12:00 PM, Ben Abelshausen
> <ben.abelshau...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Marc,
> >
> > Thanks for the not-so-positive feedback.
> >
> > I'm a bit disappointed by the quality of wegenregister as a comparison
> basis
> > (but I should have known better by now) but I'm still conviced about the
> > general idea. In the beginning we had another subset of the data with
> only
> > what we are relatively sure of coming from wegenregister but we noticed
> that
> > the classifications don't make sense all the time. In the end we took all
> > roads that had a name; at that point we discovered there are a lot of
> > driveways in there with a name (ouwch!).
> >
> > It all comes down to: trying to detect missing stuff in OSM and I think
> > there are some very good examples in the data for example these:
> > http://maproulette.org/map/2789/3111729?
> > http://maproulette.org/map/2789/3108600?
> >
> > We also ask **not to map when not sure**  so if you look at the
> instruction
> > you will see we don't ask to copy the data but to map whatever is
> missing,
> > by the same standards as usual. If that's not possible remotely then
> don't
> > map.
> >
> > We also shouldn't copy the streetnames except when we are sure it's an
> > actual road. And yes sometimes that means a guestimate of what's a
> driveway,
> > but how's that different from what we've been doing all along based on
> > imagery?
> >
> > If anyone else has questions, feel free! Also, don't map when you're not
> > sure! It's better not to have data, compared to having bad useless data.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ben
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Marc Gemis <marc.ge...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I've tried a couple of "tasks".
> >> I found it pretty hard to fill in the proper road type without being
> >> familiar with the local situation.
> >> The fact that Wegenregister adds a name to each and every long drive
> >> way is not going to help with the OSM data quality.
> >>
> >> So I gave up and went back to processing my surveys.
> >>
> >> m.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:29 AM, joost schouppe
> >> <joost.schou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > Ben and I have been working on "the road completion" project for quite
> >> > some
> >> > time now. The idea is to build a toolchain that harvests any open data
> >> > source on road networks, and turn it into a list of "possibly missing
> >> > roads
> >> > in OSM".
> >> >
> >> > For a project overview, look here:
> >> > http://www.osm.be/2017/01/06/en-project-road-completion.html
> >> >
> >> > Because it should be scalable and easy to adapt, we started with very
> >> > simple
> >> > analysis methods. The idea is to make something simple that is quick
> to
> >> > set
> >> > up and easy to extend. The repository is on Github [1]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > We started of with Wegenregister, an extensive road dataset for
> >> > Flanders. A
> >> > first selection uses