Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Well, I'll add some totally unrelated experience and analysis. I play Frisbee with my dogs. We do it at an elite level. If you've seen discdogs on TV more than once, you've most likely seen me and some of my dogs. Discdoggers have had a very rough time as a community. Talk about fractious, petty and downright nasty, some of our history makes Amanda Andrew look like a kids spat. Anyway, let me share with you my understanding of the problems in our community, and how and why I think it went down. I've seen the same things play out in Japan and Europe, in the discdog community, and I am sure that it is some kind of human dynamic when it comes to semi- professional knowledge and talent based endeavors. OK. So, in the mid-90s, we had a couple of creative personalities that started doing a lot of training, and they were good at it. These creative people were good friends and shared their knowledge freely. Each person benefitted from this shared knowledge and their relationship. Needless to say there was some kind of split, and each creative person went their own way. Taking their knowledge, their 'stuff', that they once shared freely with them. It became 'my stuff' - 'my knowledge' . He is taking my stuff. He didn't come up with that, that's my stuff. Both of these people started to teach and to develop their own organizations based upon 'their stuff'. 'Stuff' that they developed together. Now She is profiting from my stuff! and vice versa. Because it is a small community, and personal relationships are the glue that hold it together, factions developed based upon each person's clique. These factions grew to large percentages of the community, as one could barely do anything without encountering one faction or the other. One of the main focuses of the split were on making money: I don't want my money going to that organization. I don't want to pay his bills. This soon got out of hand, and the one thing that could not be done was to do something for profit within the community. Somebody would get pissed off and cause a stink. Then their friends would hop on the bandwagon, and the project would get shut down because it was too much of a hassle. Discdogging is a real passion for people, and changes to the ability to express and engage in that passion are a serious issue to all members of the community. That's it, in a nutshell, I think. I think that this comes into play in this community as well. I taught Verdi how to do that! Now he's writing a book. Dude, Hudack got that idea from me. and so on. As people split off and take away the knowledge that was freely given and shared, and profit from it, it causes problems. Add to it the 'sellout factor' for BIG MONEY, and we have some serious opportunity for nastiness. That no-talent Congdon... and so on... So that's what I think the dynamic is, and I don't think it bodes well for free and open collaboration. In fact, I'm surprised that this community is as open and free as it is still. I really hope that continues, as I have learned boatloads from this community and hope to do so long into the future. I hope nobody took offense at my purposefully clumsy statements of fake-fact. I was simply trying to make a point. Some of my solutions to this dynamic, in the disdog world, which is still an ongoing endeavor: Make sure that I always remember who taught me what, and cite it, like a footnote: Marcus Wolff taught me this. I learned this one from Craig Rogers. etc. Do good by the community: I have given lots of people lots of stuff for free. I am always approachable and available at events, and I even go out of my way to help people out. If they are working on something and I can help them, I bust on in and help them. Speak up when something needs to be said: and say the things that are on the community's mind but are not getting exposure. Steve Elbows is a good example in this group. Anyway, I just thought I would share some of my experience in this thread, as I do believe it is applicable to the situation with online video distribution and specifically with the lack of collaborative energy right now. Cheers, Ron Last year, Network2 probably would have gotten On Dec 20, 2006, at 3:02 PM, leanbackvids wrote: Thanks Sull for the background info. Ironically the conversation about collaboration has halted. Someone posted the other day that we are in an Age of Narcissusism. Maybe it is generally true that vloggers are self-driven, and that is the reason community collaboration has been difficult. The part that has always frustrated me about the level of community participation is that it IS self-rewarding to contribute and collaborate with various sites. This Yahoo group is a perfect example... How many people have a vlog but remain lurkers here? Those who post regularly have become known in the community. Technically, it is probably
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Thanks Sull for the background info. Ironically the conversation about collaboration has halted. Someone posted the other day that we are in an Age of Narcissusism. Maybe it is generally true that vloggers are self-driven, and that is the reason community collaboration has been difficult. The part that has always frustrated me about the level of community participation is that it IS self-rewarding to contribute and collaborate with various sites. This Yahoo group is a perfect example... How many people have a vlog but remain lurkers here? Those who post regularly have become known in the community. Technically, it is probably because of the urls in their signatures. The more the person post, the more they themselves become known. Posting comments on other vlogs or participating in other directories/networks only expands the number of locations your site is linked, which Google's page rank weights heavily. I feel the same way about RSS and embedding of videos. Put branding at the beginning and the end and welcome all distribution. If you are fortunate, you may be able to generate income off video advertising. Most Web-based rewards revolve around traffic... and participation usually increases traffic. -Matt http://vlogmap.org --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, sull [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The closest efforts that I am aware of are ourmedia.org and node101.org. Ourmedia is still lost in orbit but I know there are some efforts to do a relaunch/refocus. Node101... they succeeded in raising money from vloggercon ($20k?). But I do not know what the money will go towards in the coming year or if there is an interest in funding software development etc. I'm not sure what projects are in store at Node101. Else... A project that is not in and of itself a nonprofit organization but is hosted and supported by one is Videobloggers.org This was my project in partnership with ibiblio.org. ibiblio does not have extra resources to help beyond the free hosting (last i heard). I have on more than one occasion asked for help in completing/relaunching that project but no response. Maybe thats some sort of gauge to the effect of what you are saying, matt. sull On 12/19/06, leanbackvids [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Couldn't we create a non-profit organization and build the Web app under it's ownership? Would others work for that? How successful have other attempts been? I don't know. -Matt http://vlogmap.org -- Sull http://vlogdir.com (a project) http://SpreadTheMedia.org (my blog) http://interdigitate.com (otherly) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
I agree about the participation, I wish more here posted, just to have a few more voices be heard Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, leanbackvids [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Sull for the background info. Ironically the conversation about collaboration has halted. Someone posted the other day that we are in an Age of Narcissusism. Maybe it is generally true that vloggers are self-driven, and that is the reason community collaboration has been difficult. The part that has always frustrated me about the level of community participation is that it IS self-rewarding to contribute and collaborate with various sites. This Yahoo group is a perfect example... How many people have a vlog but remain lurkers here? Those who post regularly have become known in the community. Technically, it is probably because of the urls in their signatures. The more the person post, the more they themselves become known. Posting comments on other vlogs or participating in other directories/networks only expands the number of locations your site is linked, which Google's page rank weights heavily. I feel the same way about RSS and embedding of videos. Put branding at the beginning and the end and welcome all distribution. If you are fortunate, you may be able to generate income off video advertising. Most Web-based rewards revolve around traffic... and participation usually increases traffic. -Matt http://vlogmap.org --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, sull sulleleven@ wrote: The closest efforts that I am aware of are ourmedia.org and node101.org. Ourmedia is still lost in orbit but I know there are some efforts to do a relaunch/refocus. Node101... they succeeded in raising money from vloggercon ($20k?). But I do not know what the money will go towards in the coming year or if there is an interest in funding software development etc. I'm not sure what projects are in store at Node101. Else... A project that is not in and of itself a nonprofit organization but is hosted and supported by one is Videobloggers.org This was my project in partnership with ibiblio.org. ibiblio does not have extra resources to help beyond the free hosting (last i heard). I have on more than one occasion asked for help in completing/relaunching that project but no response. Maybe thats some sort of gauge to the effect of what you are saying, matt. sull On 12/19/06, leanbackvids leanbackvids@ wrote: Couldn't we create a non-profit organization and build the Web app under it's ownership? Would others work for that? How successful have other attempts been? I don't know. -Matt http://vlogmap.org -- Sull http://vlogdir.com (a project) http://SpreadTheMedia.org (my blog) http://interdigitate.com (otherly) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
I agree with you Andrew, especialy in regards to a way to easily find content, etc. I watch quite a few vlogs but I am sure that there are a whole bunch more that I would be interested in if I just knew about them. As it stands right know there is no easy way to find vlogs, yes you have MeFeedia, Fireant, Zencast, etc but they are by no means all inclusive. It feels scattershot to me..finding content is not easy, and to be honest, I don't have the time to scour the web finding it. I DO like to do OTHER things besides vlog and watch vlogsI know that may be hesay to some ;) In the end for me, I feel the the gang at Network2 has been active and responsive. Can you say that about all the other sites out there that are just crawling your feed, taking it and rehosting it, with out you knowing about it? Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, andrew michael baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Obviously you feel something is different here with Network2. Can you explain why you see this as different? -Verdi Sure, it all comes down to the people. The aggregator I complained about recently involved a guy who threatened to sue Rocketboom. This aggregator involves a guy who has reached out and offered to help Rocketboom, time and time again. I am certain that the only reason why Blip is doing well right now is because of the people. Thats what distinguished them. As I mentioned earlier, I have spent a lot of time with Chris and Jeff this year and after getting to know them and hearing about their vision, learning about their resources, and seeing the speed of their activity, Id say they have an extremely well funded, very experienced, super spirited outlook. -- I met Chris at Podcamp when he started it in Boston, where he and I first met Jeff. I then went to the on to meet up with Chris and Jeff on many other occasions and conferences this year. We have all been talking recently about sharing a studio space here in Manhattan as well. --- Im personally focused on creating more content right now but with regards to all of you this leads me to this thought, again: I've often said out loud to the various parties involved that it would be great to join Vlogmap and Vlogdir (directories), FireAnt (software ap) and Mefeedia (database) all together for a killer app, esp. because of the talents of the people involved that could be shared to develop the uber work. With Network2 (currently an online aggregator), Blip (hosting) and all of the extra stuff that each of these bring to the table, you would have a major indi-meregr of support. I realize its a crazy idea, but if I wasn't busy, I'd do more than just suggest it. On Dec 18, 2006, at 8:50 PM, Michael Verdi wrote: Andrew, I'm not trying to get in an argument with you but I am interested in a clarification of your thoughts here. In the past you've written to this list about all the trouble you've had with sites that have sucked in the Rocketboom feed allowing people to watch episodes embeded in pages that kind of made it look as if Rocketboom had some relationship with the site. Obviously you feel something is different here with Network2. Can you explain why you see this as different? -Verdi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Generally speaking, I think decentralized sites are better than one uber site. But, ownership is the major roadblock for collaborating on a killer app. Without a legal contract (lawyer fees), the person who registered the domain will own everything, and the unfortunate reality is that most people will not work for that. Note, the value of ownership is measured in money only if the site generates income or is sold, but since that is rare and unlikely, the value of ownership is measured in pride (a common sin for developers - ha). Each of the developers behind the sites you mentioned have genuinely stated that they are open to collaboration and help. I'd love nothing more than to collaborate with others on the next version of VlogMap, but few people have ever offered/provided help. And I don't blame them... I've got big ideas for Blip, Vlogdir, FireAnt, Mefeedia, Rocketboom, and vlogging in general too, but I can't afford to work for someone else's project on my nights and weekends without compensation. Couldn't we create a non-profit organization and build the Web app under it's ownership? Would others work for that? How successful have other attempts been? I don't know. -Matt http://vlogmap.org --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, andrew michael baron wrote: I've often said out loud to the various parties involved that it would be great to join Vlogmap and Vlogdir (directories), FireAnt (software ap) and Mefeedia (database) all together for a killer app, esp. because of the talents of the people involved that could be shared to develop the uber work.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
The closest efforts that I am aware of are ourmedia.org and node101.org. Ourmedia is still lost in orbit but I know there are some efforts to do a relaunch/refocus. Node101... they succeeded in raising money from vloggercon ($20k?). But I do not know what the money will go towards in the coming year or if there is an interest in funding software development etc. I'm not sure what projects are in store at Node101. Else... A project that is not in and of itself a nonprofit organization but is hosted and supported by one is Videobloggers.org This was my project in partnership with ibiblio.org. ibiblio does not have extra resources to help beyond the free hosting (last i heard). I have on more than one occasion asked for help in completing/relaunching that project but no response. Maybe thats some sort of gauge to the effect of what you are saying, matt. sull On 12/19/06, leanbackvids [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Couldn't we create a non-profit organization and build the Web app under it's ownership? Would others work for that? How successful have other attempts been? I don't know. -Matt http://vlogmap.org -- Sull http://vlogdir.com (a project) http://SpreadTheMedia.org (my blog) http://interdigitate.com (otherly) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
What about all the other sites out there that are just taking peoples feed? Like blogtelevision.net, the last time I checked my feed was there along with porno.good quality stuff there I tell you..my point is with all of these sites popping up for every one that you know about there are probably 100 more just taking your feed, embedding it on their site and taking your stuff. At least Network2 and a few others are trying to reach out. Yes in a perfect world, opt-in would be the only way to go, but it's not and by the fact we have public feeds we will always run the risk of someone taking our stuff they link back and don't host which is a big deal to me..as for ads.well, need to think some more on that.. Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here are my thoughts... The reality is there is money to be made in aggregating and presenting content. In other words it's a commercial use of people's content. Maybe a site doesn't have ads or even charges money for content but if they get lots of viewers because they have lots of content then, as we've seen with YouTube, they can be valuable. That's value built on the backs of others. Now I think if you opt-in to something that isn't displaying your license or linking to your permalink or is putting ads around your stuff than you've obviously agreed to that. No problem there. On the other hand, if like in the case of Network2, you have to opt-out then that's not cool at all. Some of my content is up there and I've never been asked about it. I have no agreement with them though they are, in my opinion, commercially using my content. Even if you could somehow argue that it wasn't a commercial use, they still aren't displaying the terms of my license. I also noticed while looking around that Fireant.tv has added ads to the page since I last checked. Not cool guys. There weren't any ads when I opted in. So what do I want from a directory? - I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not the directory's feed of my stuff) - I want my work's license displayed I think this is the minimum required. -Verdi
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
- I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not the directory's feed of my stuff) - I want my work's license displayed I find this list of points to be spot on as the primary concerns. I think FireAnt, Network2 and vlogdir/vlogmap serve three different types of purposes and each can be treated differently with regards to these questions. I was just emailing with Jeff Pulver and it sounds like he previously had the foresight for exactly all of this and may have already changed some of it. As more and more online video content emerges, no one has yet surfaced as the entry point for online serial content besides iTunes which is not apt for democratic inclusively. I'm going to give the 'most likely to succeed' award in 2007 to Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2, Video on the Net and Pod-camp, for having emerged basically just this year with these projects, shooting up overnight, and having the best of intents and heart (for I have gotten to know both this year and this last point is the very strongest quality behind everything). Before I hop off my support-wagon here, most importantly for all of us, I expect 2007 is going to require a major battle with Net Neutrality. This battle has already happened before when audio transmission over the internet had become democratized. On February 12, 2004, Mr. Pulver's petition for clarification declaring Free World Dial-up as an unregulated information service was granted by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). . . Now referred to as the Pulver Order, the ruling provides important clarification that computer-to-computer VoIP service is not a telecommunications service. By doing this, the FCC delivered a strong signal to consumers and capital markets that the FCC is not interested in subjecting end-to-end IP Communications services to traditional voice telecommunications regulation under the Communications Act. In otherwords, having co-founded Vonage, Jeff fought to make sure stuff like Skype could be free. Even Apple voice chat and podcasting would have been at risk. With regards to tomorrow's internet, Pulver has been hot on the case and may be one of the best positioned people to help keep internet video transmission free as well. On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:24 AM, Michael Verdi wrote: Here are my thoughts... The reality is there is money to be made in aggregating and presenting content. In other words it's a commercial use of people's content. Maybe a site doesn't have ads or even charges money for content but if they get lots of viewers because they have lots of content then, as we've seen with YouTube, they can be valuable. That's value built on the backs of others. Now I think if you opt-in to something that isn't displaying your license or linking to your permalink or is putting ads around your stuff than you've obviously agreed to that. No problem there. On the other hand, if like in the case of Network2, you have to opt-out then that's not cool at all. Some of my content is up there and I've never been asked about it. I have no agreement with them though they are, in my opinion, commercially using my content. Even if you could somehow argue that it wasn't a commercial use, they still aren't displaying the terms of my license. I also noticed while looking around that Fireant.tv has added ads to the page since I last checked. Not cool guys. There weren't any ads when I opted in. So what do I want from a directory? - I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not the directory's feed of my stuff) - I want my work's license displayed I think this is the minimum required. -Verdi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
I agree with almost everything Andrew says below, in spirit, (I say, in spirit, because I don't know Jeff Pulver or Chris Brogan), especially with respect to the importance of net-neutrality being central in 2007 ... However, one point I would disagree on - Andrew said ... As more and more online video content emerges, no one has yet surfaced as the entry point for online serial content besides iTunes which is not apt for democratic inclusively. I'm going to give the 'most likely to succeed' award in 2007 to Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2 ... having the best of intents and heart Personally, I would substitute blip.tv for the Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2 part IMHO ... Blip has the ideal philosophy with serialized content, based on the idea that blip is there to aid and facilitate the creator in disseminating in the widest and most open possible way, with no effort, on blip's part to own or brand the content as their own ... plus I have come to know a lot of the blip people well and I can't imagine than anyone else could beat the team at blip.tv in terms of having the best of intents and heart ... Richard (the blip fan) On 12/18/06, andrew michael baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not the directory's feed of my stuff) - I want my work's license displayed I find this list of points to be spot on as the primary concerns. I think FireAnt, Network2 and vlogdir/vlogmap serve three different types of purposes and each can be treated differently with regards to these questions. I was just emailing with Jeff Pulver and it sounds like he previously had the foresight for exactly all of this and may have already changed some of it. As more and more online video content emerges, no one has yet surfaced as the entry point for online serial content besides iTunes which is not apt for democratic inclusively. I'm going to give the 'most likely to succeed' award in 2007 to Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2, Video on the Net and Pod-camp, for having emerged basically just this year with these projects, shooting up overnight, and having the best of intents and heart (for I have gotten to know both this year and this last point is the very strongest quality behind everything). Before I hop off my support-wagon here, most importantly for all of us, I expect 2007 is going to require a major battle with Net Neutrality. This battle has already happened before when audio transmission over the internet had become democratized. On February 12, 2004, Mr. Pulver's petition for clarification declaring Free World Dial-up as an unregulated information service was granted by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). . . Now referred to as the Pulver Order, the ruling provides important clarification that computer-to-computer VoIP service is not a telecommunications service. By doing this, the FCC delivered a strong signal to consumers and capital markets that the FCC is not interested in subjecting end-to-end IP Communications services to traditional voice telecommunications regulation under the Communications Act. In otherwords, having co-founded Vonage, Jeff fought to make sure stuff like Skype could be free. Even Apple voice chat and podcasting would have been at risk. With regards to tomorrow's internet, Pulver has been hot on the case and may be one of the best positioned people to help keep internet video transmission free as well. On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:24 AM, Michael Verdi wrote: Here are my thoughts... The reality is there is money to be made in aggregating and presenting content. In other words it's a commercial use of people's content. Maybe a site doesn't have ads or even charges money for content but if they get lots of viewers because they have lots of content then, as we've seen with YouTube, they can be valuable. That's value built on the backs of others. Now I think if you opt-in to something that isn't displaying your license or linking to your permalink or is putting ads around your stuff than you've obviously agreed to that. No problem there. On the other hand, if like in the case of Network2, you have to opt-out then that's not cool at all. Some of my content is up there and I've never been asked about it. I have no agreement with them though they are, in my opinion, commercially using my content. Even if you could somehow argue that it wasn't a commercial use, they still aren't displaying the terms of my license. I also noticed while looking around that Fireant.tv has added ads to the page since I last checked. Not cool guys. There weren't any ads when I opted in. So what do I want from a directory? - I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Hey Richard- Blip rocks, and I would be happy to see them succeed, too. Or rather, they'd BETTER succeed, because my little videoblog is on there, and I don't want to go find a new friend. -- Chris...
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
I'm curious-- what do some of the people in this discussion think of flickr as a service, site, and business? (Adam, Steve, etc) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Well I feel their potential value for creators is along the publicity/promotion side of things at the moment (not knowing what future feature/services they may have planned). I have little doubt that there are many creators of episodic show stuff that can benefit from this stuff if its done the right way. Now unlike hosting services that stuff isnt a 100% necessity to actually being able to videoblog/whateverucallit, but if you look at the traditional media Ive long said that not all of their power is eroded by net delivery of content because 'people knwoing you exist' is still something mass media can achieve rather well. The net has its own technology-driven methods of making people aware of content, but traditional publicity is not irrelevant on the net (depending on your aims). With this in mind the actual value network2 can deliver to its partners will come down to how well a job they do of promoting the site and those who grace its guide. If I were a content producer Id care about how they did this as much as how sucessful they were, hence my concerns over the spam issue, but I dont doubt it can be a useful thing. Cheers Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's what I love about Blip (I think Richard would agree) - THEY ADD VALUE. Does Network2 add value? -Michael On 12/18/06, Richard (Show) Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with almost everything Andrew says below, in spirit, (I say, in spirit, because I don't know Jeff Pulver or Chris Brogan), especially with respect to the importance of net-neutrality being central in 2007 ... However, one point I would disagree on - Andrew said ... As more and more online video content emerges, no one has yet surfaced as the entry point for online serial content besides iTunes which is not apt for democratic inclusively. I'm going to give the 'most likely to succeed' award in 2007 to Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2 ... having the best of intents and heart Personally, I would substitute blip.tv for the Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2 part IMHO ... Blip has the ideal philosophy with serialized content, based on the idea that blip is there to aid and facilitate the creator in disseminating in the widest and most open possible way, with no effort, on blip's part to own or brand the content as their own ... plus I have come to know a lot of the blip people well and I can't imagine than anyone else could beat the team at blip.tv in terms of having the best of intents and heart ... Richard (the blip fan) On 12/18/06, andrew michael baron [EMAIL PROTECTED]andrew%40rocketboom.com wrote: - I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not the directory's feed of my stuff) - I want my work's license displayed I find this list of points to be spot on as the primary concerns. I think FireAnt, Network2 and vlogdir/vlogmap serve three different types of purposes and each can be treated differently with regards to these questions. I was just emailing with Jeff Pulver and it sounds like he previously had the foresight for exactly all of this and may have already changed some of it. As more and more online video content emerges, no one has yet surfaced as the entry point for online serial content besides iTunes which is not apt for democratic inclusively. I'm going to give the 'most likely to succeed' award in 2007 to Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2, Video on the Net and Pod-camp, for having emerged basically just this year with these projects, shooting up overnight, and having the best of intents and heart (for I have gotten to know both this year and this last point is the very strongest quality behind everything). Before I hop off my support-wagon here, most importantly for all of us, I expect 2007 is going to require a major battle with Net Neutrality. This battle has already happened before when audio transmission over the internet had become democratized. On February 12, 2004, Mr. Pulver's petition for clarification declaring Free World Dial-up as an unregulated information service was granted by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). . . Now referred to as the Pulver Order, the ruling provides important clarification that computer-to-computer VoIP service is not a telecommunications service. By doing this, the FCC delivered a strong signal to consumers and capital markets that the FCC is not interested in subjecting end-to-end IP Communications services to traditional voice telecommunications regulation under the Communications Act. In otherwords, having co-founded Vonage, Jeff fought to make sure stuff like Skype could be free. Even Apple voice chat and
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Oops I worded that sentence very badly, didnt meant that spam could be a useful thing, but that other forms of publicity etc can be. Cheers Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:If I were a content producer Id care about how they did this as much as how sucessful they were, hence my concerns over the spam issue, but I dont doubt it can be a useful thing.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
exactly, michael. network2 aside when others have come here talking about building a new directory/portal/guide and so on... i usually say.. hey thats sounds fine and dandy... welcome i hope you add value and not just wrap your new site with ads etcetera. granted, adding value can be a new discussion in order to figure out what that can and should mean exactly. its certainly not just about launching a web based socialized content aggregator. i agree with richard about blip. but also remember that they only show what is hosted by them, not what is hosted elsewhere on the net. that's in their interest but it does leave open opportunities for net wide aggregatory services and the ones that add at least some level of value to the community of content creators should always be appreciated. so, let's talke about 'added value'. sull On 12/18/06, Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's what I love about Blip (I think Richard would agree) - THEY ADD VALUE. Does Network2 add value? -Michael On 12/18/06, Richard (Show) Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED]richard%40richardshow.com wrote: I agree with almost everything Andrew says below, in spirit, (I say, in spirit, because I don't know Jeff Pulver or Chris Brogan), especially with respect to the importance of net-neutrality being central in 2007 ... However, one point I would disagree on - Andrew said ... As more and more online video content emerges, no one has yet surfaced as the entry point for online serial content besides iTunes which is not apt for democratic inclusively. I'm going to give the 'most likely to succeed' award in 2007 to Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2 ... having the best of intents and heart Personally, I would substitute blip.tv for the Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2 part IMHO ... Blip has the ideal philosophy with serialized content, based on the idea that blip is there to aid and facilitate the creator in disseminating in the widest and most open possible way, with no effort, on blip's part to own or brand the content as their own ... plus I have come to know a lot of the blip people well and I can't imagine than anyone else could beat the team at blip.tv in terms of having the best of intents and heart ... Richard (the blip fan) On 12/18/06, andrew michael baron [EMAIL PROTECTED]andrew%40rocketboom.com andrew%40rocketboom.com wrote: - I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not the directory's feed of my stuff) - I want my work's license displayed I find this list of points to be spot on as the primary concerns. I think FireAnt, Network2 and vlogdir/vlogmap serve three different types of purposes and each can be treated differently with regards to these questions. I was just emailing with Jeff Pulver and it sounds like he previously had the foresight for exactly all of this and may have already changed some of it. As more and more online video content emerges, no one has yet surfaced as the entry point for online serial content besides iTunes which is not apt for democratic inclusively. I'm going to give the 'most likely to succeed' award in 2007 to Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2, Video on the Net and Pod-camp, for having emerged basically just this year with these projects, shooting up overnight, and having the best of intents and heart (for I have gotten to know both this year and this last point is the very strongest quality behind everything). Before I hop off my support-wagon here, most importantly for all of us, I expect 2007 is going to require a major battle with Net Neutrality. This battle has already happened before when audio transmission over the internet had become democratized. On February 12, 2004, Mr. Pulver's petition for clarification declaring Free World Dial-up as an unregulated information service was granted by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). . . Now referred to as the Pulver Order, the ruling provides important clarification that computer-to-computer VoIP service is not a telecommunications service. By doing this, the FCC delivered a strong signal to consumers and capital markets that the FCC is not interested in subjecting end-to-end IP Communications services to traditional voice telecommunications regulation under the Communications Act. In otherwords, having co-founded Vonage, Jeff fought to make sure stuff like Skype could be free. Even Apple voice chat and podcasting would have been at risk. With regards to tomorrow's internet, Pulver has been hot on the case and may be one of the best positioned people to help keep internet video transmission free as well. On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:24 AM, Michael Verdi
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
I've stayed out of this discussion thus far, but I wanted to chime in and say there's a fundamental difference between a directory service and a network service. A network implies partnership. A directory does not. -Rick Rey On 12/18/06, Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's what I love about Blip (I think Richard would agree) - THEY ADD VALUE. Does Network2 add value? -Michael On 12/18/06, Richard (Show) Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED]richard%40richardshow.com wrote: I agree with almost everything Andrew says below, in spirit, (I say, in spirit, because I don't know Jeff Pulver or Chris Brogan), especially with respect to the importance of net-neutrality being central in 2007 ... However, one point I would disagree on - Andrew said ... As more and more online video content emerges, no one has yet surfaced as the entry point for online serial content besides iTunes which is not apt for democratic inclusively. I'm going to give the 'most likely to succeed' award in 2007 to Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2 ... having the best of intents and heart Personally, I would substitute blip.tv for the Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2 part IMHO ... Blip has the ideal philosophy with serialized content, based on the idea that blip is there to aid and facilitate the creator in disseminating in the widest and most open possible way, with no effort, on blip's part to own or brand the content as their own ... plus I have come to know a lot of the blip people well and I can't imagine than anyone else could beat the team at blip.tv in terms of having the best of intents and heart ... Richard (the blip fan) On 12/18/06, andrew michael baron [EMAIL PROTECTED]andrew%40rocketboom.com andrew%40rocketboom.com wrote: - I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not the directory's feed of my stuff) - I want my work's license displayed I find this list of points to be spot on as the primary concerns. I think FireAnt, Network2 and vlogdir/vlogmap serve three different types of purposes and each can be treated differently with regards to these questions. I was just emailing with Jeff Pulver and it sounds like he previously had the foresight for exactly all of this and may have already changed some of it. As more and more online video content emerges, no one has yet surfaced as the entry point for online serial content besides iTunes which is not apt for democratic inclusively. I'm going to give the 'most likely to succeed' award in 2007 to Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2, Video on the Net and Pod-camp, for having emerged basically just this year with these projects, shooting up overnight, and having the best of intents and heart (for I have gotten to know both this year and this last point is the very strongest quality behind everything). Before I hop off my support-wagon here, most importantly for all of us, I expect 2007 is going to require a major battle with Net Neutrality. This battle has already happened before when audio transmission over the internet had become democratized. On February 12, 2004, Mr. Pulver's petition for clarification declaring Free World Dial-up as an unregulated information service was granted by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). . . Now referred to as the Pulver Order, the ruling provides important clarification that computer-to-computer VoIP service is not a telecommunications service. By doing this, the FCC delivered a strong signal to consumers and capital markets that the FCC is not interested in subjecting end-to-end IP Communications services to traditional voice telecommunications regulation under the Communications Act. In otherwords, having co-founded Vonage, Jeff fought to make sure stuff like Skype could be free. Even Apple voice chat and podcasting would have been at risk. With regards to tomorrow's internet, Pulver has been hot on the case and may be one of the best positioned people to help keep internet video transmission free as well. On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:24 AM, Michael Verdi wrote: Here are my thoughts... The reality is there is money to be made in aggregating and presenting content. In other words it's a commercial use of people's content. Maybe a site doesn't have ads or even charges money for content but if they get lots of viewers because they have lots of content then, as we've seen with YouTube, they can be valuable. That's value built on the backs of others. Now I think if you opt-in to something that isn't displaying your license or linking to your permalink or is putting ads around your stuff than you've obviously agreed to that. No
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Blip adds value to my day, but then, I'm not only a Network2, I'm also a client: http://blip.tv/file/118111 Hi Rick. : ) --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Rick Rey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've stayed out of this discussion thus far, but I wanted to chime in and say there's a fundamental difference between a directory service and a network service. A network implies partnership. A directory does not. -Rick Rey
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
a network can contain and present itself as a directory though. but yes, i see your point. For instance, http://revision3.com is a network because they have original content partnerships. but partnerships can also be made with aggregator/directory services. sull On 12/18/06, Rick Rey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've stayed out of this discussion thus far, but I wanted to chime in and say there's a fundamental difference between a directory service and a network service. A network implies partnership. A directory does not. -Rick Rey On 12/18/06, Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED]michael%40michaelverdi.com wrote: Here's what I love about Blip (I think Richard would agree) - THEY ADD VALUE. Does Network2 add value? -Michael On 12/18/06, Richard (Show) Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED]richard%40richardshow.com richard%40richardshow.com wrote: I agree with almost everything Andrew says below, in spirit, (I say, in spirit, because I don't know Jeff Pulver or Chris Brogan), especially with respect to the importance of net-neutrality being central in 2007 ... However, one point I would disagree on - Andrew said ... As more and more online video content emerges, no one has yet surfaced as the entry point for online serial content besides iTunes which is not apt for democratic inclusively. I'm going to give the 'most likely to succeed' award in 2007 to Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2 ... having the best of intents and heart Personally, I would substitute blip.tv for the Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2 part IMHO ... Blip has the ideal philosophy with serialized content, based on the idea that blip is there to aid and facilitate the creator in disseminating in the widest and most open possible way, with no effort, on blip's part to own or brand the content as their own ... plus I have come to know a lot of the blip people well and I can't imagine than anyone else could beat the team at blip.tv in terms of having the best of intents and heart ... Richard (the blip fan) On 12/18/06, andrew michael baron [EMAIL PROTECTED]andrew%40rocketboom.com andrew%40rocketboom.com andrew%40rocketboom.com wrote: - I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not the directory's feed of my stuff) - I want my work's license displayed I find this list of points to be spot on as the primary concerns. I think FireAnt, Network2 and vlogdir/vlogmap serve three different types of purposes and each can be treated differently with regards to these questions. I was just emailing with Jeff Pulver and it sounds like he previously had the foresight for exactly all of this and may have already changed some of it. As more and more online video content emerges, no one has yet surfaced as the entry point for online serial content besides iTunes which is not apt for democratic inclusively. I'm going to give the 'most likely to succeed' award in 2007 to Jeff Pulver and Chris Brogan with Network2, Video on the Net and Pod-camp, for having emerged basically just this year with these projects, shooting up overnight, and having the best of intents and heart (for I have gotten to know both this year and this last point is the very strongest quality behind everything). Before I hop off my support-wagon here, most importantly for all of us, I expect 2007 is going to require a major battle with Net Neutrality. This battle has already happened before when audio transmission over the internet had become democratized. On February 12, 2004, Mr. Pulver's petition for clarification declaring Free World Dial-up as an unregulated information service was granted by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). . . Now referred to as the Pulver Order, the ruling provides important clarification that computer-to-computer VoIP service is not a telecommunications service. By doing this, the FCC delivered a strong signal to consumers and capital markets that the FCC is not interested in subjecting end-to-end IP Communications services to traditional voice telecommunications regulation under the Communications Act. In otherwords, having co-founded Vonage, Jeff fought to make sure stuff like Skype could be free. Even Apple voice chat and podcasting would have been at risk. With regards to tomorrow's internet, Pulver has been hot on the case and may be one of the best positioned people to help keep internet video transmission free as well. On Dec 18, 2006, at 12:24 AM, Michael Verdi wrote: Here are my thoughts... The reality is there is money to be made in aggregating and
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
On Dec 18, 2006, at 5:23 PM, sull wrote: so, let's talke about 'added value'. No one has put it all together in one easy place to discover. Its an obvious missing gap and the value to everyone is immense. For this reason, I believe (so far) the directory part of the conversation should be not be opt-in and perhaps not even give the option to opt-out. A directory is just a collection of links. The best directory will need to send ace spiders out to collect links. Remember when Podcasting first came out and there were more podcasting directories than there were podcasts? What happened? Its so decentralized (this has its many merits too) but nothing emerged as the place to go to find it anything. With videoblogging, no single directory has emerged either. There is a big value to everyone for a Google-sized Search location for online video. There would be great value in a full on Technorati of videoblogging. There would be a great value in a digg for video too. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Andrew, I'm not trying to get in an argument with you but I am interested in a clarification of your thoughts here. In the past you've written to this list about all the trouble you've had with sites that have sucked in the Rocketboom feed allowing people to watch episodes embeded in pages that kind of made it look as if Rocketboom had some relationship with the site. Obviously you feel something is different here with Network2. Can you explain why you see this as different? -Verdi On 12/18/06, andrew michael baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 18, 2006, at 5:23 PM, sull wrote: so, let's talke about 'added value'. No one has put it all together in one easy place to discover. Its an obvious missing gap and the value to everyone is immense. For this reason, I believe (so far) the directory part of the conversation should be not be opt-in and perhaps not even give the option to opt-out. A directory is just a collection of links. The best directory will need to send ace spiders out to collect links. Remember when Podcasting first came out and there were more podcasting directories than there were podcasts? What happened? Its so decentralized (this has its many merits too) but nothing emerged as the place to go to find it anything. With videoblogging, no single directory has emerged either. There is a big value to everyone for a Google-sized Search location for online video. There would be great value in a full on Technorati of videoblogging. There would be a great value in a digg for video too. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] -- http://michaelverdi.com http://spinxpress.com http://freevlog.org Author of Secrets Of Videoblogging - http://tinyurl.com/me4vs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Obviously you feel something is different here with Network2. Can you explain why you see this as different? -Verdi Sure, it all comes down to the people. The aggregator I complained about recently involved a guy who threatened to sue Rocketboom. This aggregator involves a guy who has reached out and offered to help Rocketboom, time and time again. I am certain that the only reason why Blip is doing well right now is because of the people. Thats what distinguished them. As I mentioned earlier, I have spent a lot of time with Chris and Jeff this year and after getting to know them and hearing about their vision, learning about their resources, and seeing the speed of their activity, Id say they have an extremely well funded, very experienced, super spirited outlook. -- I met Chris at Podcamp when he started it in Boston, where he and I first met Jeff. I then went to the on to meet up with Chris and Jeff on many other occasions and conferences this year. We have all been talking recently about sharing a studio space here in Manhattan as well. --- Im personally focused on creating more content right now but with regards to all of you this leads me to this thought, again: I've often said out loud to the various parties involved that it would be great to join Vlogmap and Vlogdir (directories), FireAnt (software ap) and Mefeedia (database) all together for a killer app, esp. because of the talents of the people involved that could be shared to develop the uber work. With Network2 (currently an online aggregator), Blip (hosting) and all of the extra stuff that each of these bring to the table, you would have a major indi-meregr of support. I realize its a crazy idea, but if I wasn't busy, I'd do more than just suggest it. On Dec 18, 2006, at 8:50 PM, Michael Verdi wrote: Andrew, I'm not trying to get in an argument with you but I am interested in a clarification of your thoughts here. In the past you've written to this list about all the trouble you've had with sites that have sucked in the Rocketboom feed allowing people to watch episodes embeded in pages that kind of made it look as if Rocketboom had some relationship with the site. Obviously you feel something is different here with Network2. Can you explain why you see this as different? -Verdi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Oh I see that the founder of network2.tv has now blogged about this stuff and shares a similar position to Chris Brogan, a complete lack of understanding about most of the points I made: http://pulverblog.pulver.com/archives/006117.html Swine Steve Elbows
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
OK I ve found a nice blog post about these issues, hopefully network2.tv can show that to their lawyers and see if they get the point I and others have tried to make. I stop ranting now. http://weblog.burningbird.net/2006/01/18/that-old-copyright-song/ Cheers Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh I see that the founder of network2.tv has now blogged about this stuff and shares a similar position to Chris Brogan, a complete lack of understanding about most of the points I made: http://pulverblog.pulver.com/archives/006117.html Swine Steve Elbows
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Here are my thoughts... The reality is there is money to be made in aggregating and presenting content. In other words it's a commercial use of people's content. Maybe a site doesn't have ads or even charges money for content but if they get lots of viewers because they have lots of content then, as we've seen with YouTube, they can be valuable. That's value built on the backs of others. Now I think if you opt-in to something that isn't displaying your license or linking to your permalink or is putting ads around your stuff than you've obviously agreed to that. No problem there. On the other hand, if like in the case of Network2, you have to opt-out then that's not cool at all. Some of my content is up there and I've never been asked about it. I have no agreement with them though they are, in my opinion, commercially using my content. Even if you could somehow argue that it wasn't a commercial use, they still aren't displaying the terms of my license. I also noticed while looking around that Fireant.tv has added ads to the page since I last checked. Not cool guys. There weren't any ads when I opted in. So what do I want from a directory? - I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not the directory's feed of my stuff) - I want my work's license displayed I think this is the minimum required. -Verdi
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
So what do I want from a directory? - I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not the directory's feed of my stuff) - I want my work's license displayed I think this is the minimum required. I agree (since April 05 ;-) You submitted your vlog in May 05: http://vlogdir.com/permalink/136 I guess the only open issue is about the ability to play video on vlogdir.com. I always looked at it as a way to preview content before choosing to subscribe or bookmark the site. But I will watch this discussion and will consider making the embedded videos from a submitted vodcast an opt-in as well. Since vlogdir is community-drive directory and is opt-in, i assume most are aware that videos are playable on the site and that is ok. But if you login, you can always edit/delete your vlog and/or feed. Also, at some point in 2007, I am going to upgrade vlogdir with a new UI and a few new features. I'd love feedback from anyone who is reading. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vlogdir-users/ Cheers, Sull On 12/18/06, Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here are my thoughts... The reality is there is money to be made in aggregating and presenting content. In other words it's a commercial use of people's content. Maybe a site doesn't have ads or even charges money for content but if they get lots of viewers because they have lots of content then, as we've seen with YouTube, they can be valuable. That's value built on the backs of others. Now I think if you opt-in to something that isn't displaying your license or linking to your permalink or is putting ads around your stuff than you've obviously agreed to that. No problem there. On the other hand, if like in the case of Network2, you have to opt-out then that's not cool at all. Some of my content is up there and I've never been asked about it. I have no agreement with them though they are, in my opinion, commercially using my content. Even if you could somehow argue that it wasn't a commercial use, they still aren't displaying the terms of my license. I also noticed while looking around that Fireant.tv has added ads to the page since I last checked. Not cool guys. There weren't any ads when I opted in. So what do I want from a directory? - I want it to be opt-in - I want prominent link to my site - I want a link to the post's permalink - I want a link to my feed (not the directory's feed of my stuff) - I want my work's license displayed I think this is the minimum required. -Verdi -- Sull http://vlogdir.com (a project) http://SpreadTheMedia.org (my blog) http://interdigitate.com (otherly) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
This is the context from which you should have started with us, Chris. On 12/16/06, [chrisbrogan.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got this hilarious bunch of emails from David at Mommy.tv (a really great show- and if you've seen The Clip Show, Jim Kirks called me out!). It TOTALLY seems to point out what some of the animosity is: David has four emails from four separate companies saying almost the same thing. We're one in a series. All of them say something like, This is really great stuff. We'd love to feature you. Blah blah. Believe me, four is a small number. There will be 104 by the end of 2007. Some will have most people's best interest in mind. Some will be a silly idea. Some will make it just by having the right connections. Some will become notorious for making crucial missteps. Network2 might be no different. Who am I to say? But I have some thoughts on why *I* think we're different. I've been at this doing various video projects for a while now (I did New Media School before http://smallboxes.blip.tv ). My boss, Jeff Pulver, has been promoting the fact that independent video creation and distribution is key to the future, that sharing via RSS is important, and that this space needs to stay open and not walled (most IPTV deals are walled garden content). We promote sharing via easy distribution. We promote downloadable content so that people can enjoy shows on a portable device, while off the Internet, etc. (If I had to fly to San Fran without a laptop full of videoblogs, I'd have gone snakey.) We would love to help folks make money through bringing content together. The argument that paying me means we have money to pay videobloggers for content is interesting, but I can't think of a proper and non-snarky response. I worked 90+ hours a week since April (40 for my old day job) and 50 on my own video and audio projects plus PodCamp. The 50+ hours were unpaid. I actually found a job where I'm paid to meet the community through events like PodCamp, the Halloween Videoblog Fest, the Vloggies, PME, Video on the Net, etc. I'm paid to reach out to people and try to bring more attention to your work. I don't think I'll apologize for that. You'll have plenty of choices to make over 2007 and maybe some of 2008. The choices will entail how you want to proceed with your projects, how you want to be represented or not in this space. You'll see some people making huge deals with major traditional studios (oh wait! We already did). You'll see some people make decent cash their own way (did you buy a duckie?) We're offering a way to point people to your sites, your work. We've built ways for you to share collections of your favorite shows with others. We've built tagging, sharing, etc. Swing by. Oh, and just one more time for the chorus: If you like the site, but we've somehow got something wrong about your page, let me know and we'll work to fix it (iteratively at times). There's only two developers and they're working their head off to build more features). If you don't want to be on the site, please contact me via email or phone. If you want to meet up when I'm somewhere near your neck of the woods, I'll always post event invites, because I always want to meet folks. I'm sleepy and happy to be back to Boston. --Chris... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Two quick points- We don't embed. We have a thumbnail that points to your feed. There's nothing copied and stored in our system but the data of the RSS (no rich file). We only got the request formally to take down the show of the person who complained moments ago. I wasn't going to take it offline without him requesting, because I'd hoped to win his understanding. The feed will be removed. I sent the request to my Dev team. --Chris...
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Hi Steve- Specific to Blip, I'd say yes without a doubt that we're friends. We've spent time with Mike and Dina, and have had them speak at our events. Mike and Dina (and Charles and the team) supported PodCamp Boston, my first free unconference. We have a relationship. We have friends and relationships with Brightcove, and I'm building a relationship with Revver through Micki. If you think about it, we're pushing more folks to view content hosted on Revver, giving Revver (or Blip or whoever) the credit for hosting the content, linking back to THEM, and also not interfering with any ad deals that Blip or Revver or *.host have put on the site. So yes. One reason we link back to you and DON'T embed or host your video is then we'd mess up your numbers, for people who want numbers. Another big huge company that uses a fruit logo sometimes stores server-side copies of your videos so that your RSS doesn't get an accurate count of people watching (I'm told- no direct proof). That means, if you DO care about numbers, they're skewed. Instead, we let your numbers stay your numbers. And Steve, I appreciate your thoughts and your tone. Coming off sounding angry is fine. You're still demonstrating intelligence and an interest in the logic and rationale. It only sucks when people are just crapping on you for nothing and with no ability to discuss the particulars. Anyone coming out to CES? I'd love to meet up and say hi. --Chris...
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Cheers for the reply. The blip.tv folks are a shining example of people who listen very careful to feedback, so if there are any contentious issues about exactly hw your service woks, I highly recommend speaking to them to get another angle on things. blip.tv ask uploads to specify a license for their works, which can be either traditional copyright or creative commons. These licence details are displayed on blips site when you watch the videos there. Ideally, and to remail compliant with creative commons terms, you guys need to carry this info across from blip.tv when you put videos from there in your guide. By embed I mean embed the video within pages of your site, so that the video can be viewed in whole via pages on your site. You definately do that, and thats where the creative commons copyright angle Ive been waffling about comes from. Take for example the following from googles vlog page on copyright: Google News is a good example of how Google protects copyright in practice. We index the content of thousands of news sources online. When users go to Google News, they see only headlines, snippets and image thumbnails from the relevant news articles. If people want to read the story, they must click through links in our results to the original website. So in a way you could say that embedding video in your site is the equivalent of me taking the entire content of your blog and publishing it on my site. Some people are bound not to like it, which is where the opt-in stuff comes into play. But by no means is this a black and white issue, its just one of the areas you guys have to think carefully about from time to time. Anyway I guess Im ddone waffling on this for now, thanks for listening. Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, [chrisbrogan.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Steve- Specific to Blip, I'd say yes without a doubt that we're friends. We've spent time with Mike and Dina, and have had them speak at our events. Mike and Dina (and Charles and the team) supported PodCamp Boston, my first free unconference. We have a relationship. We have friends and relationships with Brightcove, and I'm building a relationship with Revver through Micki. If you think about it, we're pushing more folks to view content hosted on Revver, giving Revver (or Blip or whoever) the credit for hosting the content, linking back to THEM, and also not interfering with any ad deals that Blip or Revver or *.host have put on the site. So yes. One reason we link back to you and DON'T embed or host your video is then we'd mess up your numbers, for people who want numbers. Another big huge company that uses a fruit logo sometimes stores server-side copies of your videos so that your RSS doesn't get an accurate count of people watching (I'm told- no direct proof). That means, if you DO care about numbers, they're skewed. Instead, we let your numbers stay your numbers. And Steve, I appreciate your thoughts and your tone. Coming off sounding angry is fine. You're still demonstrating intelligence and an interest in the logic and rationale. It only sucks when people are just crapping on you for nothing and with no ability to discuss the particulars. Anyone coming out to CES? I'd love to meet up and say hi. --Chris...
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
For the record sull, those feeds came in from blip, vimeo, vsocial, etc. via our ping service. The other end (blip, vsocial) had to send us the data...more like being fed than sucking ;) It is an old service that isn't in action anymore. And yes, some of them are a pain now and that's an appropriate nickname As far as the rss thing, yeah if you put it out there then anyone can grab it, but one would hope that you have your cc licensing in it and we all hope that the site that is consuming it is adhering to your license. Thanks, Devlon Duthie http://mefeedia.com | Find Videoblogs http://devlonduthie.com | My Site sull wrote: well i will chime in *again*. i have nothing truly against network2. they communicate here and seem like smart, decent people in this space. of course, that is also in best business interests but hey you cant be too skeptical otherwise you would be... paranoid. i've claimed this before, but its important to repeat it especially when a thread like this invites it. vlogdir.com is OPT-IN. from day 1 in April 2005, the directory has been a community-driven directory. I didnt populate it. YOU did. and I am proud of that because i think it is an interesting gauge of this vlog community. I also think that it works mostly as a passive filter. Meaning, people actually take a few moments to submit their videoblog and vodcast (rss feed). That means that they think they have something good to share with others. so they choose to take some measures to do that sharing. vlogdir is always a top 10-20 result in google... so it helps somewhat. I also believe that vlogmap.org has worked this way for almost as long. though i totally love mefeedia they are not only opt-in and they actually went through a period when they sucked in a boat-load of feeds from other services like blip, vimeo, vsocial, youtube etc. i call most of those feeds orphans. but mefeedia is like the best overall vlog/feed aggregator i think and they do a tremendous amount of right stuff so, this is in no way to traject anything negative on mefeedia. they rock and when i can, i help them out with feedback. fireant.tv is opt-in too but last i checked, they also add in their own selections as well. the weird part is the fact that any feed you enter in the app, gets added to a database as part of a review queue and if it looks tasty, it will end up on the web directory. i think you can opt-out of that happening on mac version. but many feeds on fireant.tv are added by fireant themselves as well as the community (whether intended or not). the only time i truly think its nasty to add feeds without opt-in is when some site appears out of nowhere and sucks in feeds and wraps ads around everything. they are obviously just trying to rank high in search results and make a few bucks. no value back to the community and no value to the publishers. its cheap and its dirty. and it creates a bad reputation too. RSS... yes if you put out a feed, as a general rule you are syndicating your content to anyone on the web. Preferably, you want that content grabbed by an audience, not by random aggregator sites. But you also realize that some of the reputable aggregator sites actually do help you gain exposure and get traffic and distribute your media. More people can subscribe to you. It can be a very good thing if you actually want to spread your media. But you should respect the aggregator and if you dont, you should be able to tell them to remove your content. and they should respond asap. network2 seems like they are trying to add value to the community. i think they might succeed. we'll see. vlogdir.com... well the project was one of the originals to come out of this community and its in auto-pilot. it still serves and represents the vlogosphere but i have not personally focused on evolving the project. after all, it is what it is. what else can it be? i promote vlogs that i like a lot... on the site and elsewhere. and every once in a while i need to delete some vietnam tourism site etc but for the most part, the directory has been problem free. thats a success story. to me at least. maybe in 2007, i will carve a little time out to improve the site. in mean time, make sure any agg-newcomers work like mefeedia, vlogdir, fireant, vlogmap, blip. the originals who give full attribution and add value to the community. oh, i suppose network2 as well ;) sull On 12/14/06, Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think i see a difference aren't fireant and mefeedia opt-in ? also, i don't think they *feature* sites from people who wish otherwise On Dec 14, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Heath wrote: I don't see what you are doing as any different than Fireant, or MeFeedia, etc. You are providing a way to view video on the web, vlogs, etc.at least you are providing link backs and other things,
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Independent producers, the ones doing innovative things, creative things, with their CONTENT, are being left behind in the billion dollar Youtube new media revolution. There are people doing very impressive, intelligent, timeless things. Many of which, idealistically, have no ulterior motives other than to create art. I wrap Richard BF and several other amazing people into this category. They aren't selling me anything. But the people that seem to be glorified in this Videoblogging Yahoo! group are the ones that cater to the lowest common denominator. There was an inherent honesty involved when I joined this group. Inherent because we were all just responding to each other's videos. And I understand that we have outgrown that simplicity (it's become Youtube). I'd like to retain some of that structure if possible though. I'm not sure if it is. I can no longer sit idly by reading glowing reviews of Amanda Across America or Galacticast. I happen to think Casey is a very nice woman. I just think what she and Amanda Congdon are trying to do to the personal media revolution is very contrary to what I think should be happening. Because they are both SHIT. I'm not saying you shouldn't post about either of these pieces of shit, just saying that I can no longer read this email list without responding appropriately to my conscience. Apologies to anyone offended. Ok, AQ On 12/15/06, sull [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: well i will chime in *again*. i have nothing truly against network2. they communicate here and seem like smart, decent people in this space. of course, that is also in best business interests but hey you cant be too skeptical otherwise you would be... paranoid. i've claimed this before, but its important to repeat it especially when a thread like this invites it. vlogdir.com is OPT-IN. from day 1 in April 2005, the directory has been a community-driven directory. I didnt populate it. YOU did. and I am proud of that because i think it is an interesting gauge of this vlog community. I also think that it works mostly as a passive filter. Meaning, people actually take a few moments to submit their videoblog and vodcast (rss feed). That means that they think they have something good to share with others. so they choose to take some measures to do that sharing. vlogdir is always a top 10-20 result in google... so it helps somewhat. I also believe that vlogmap.org has worked this way for almost as long. though i totally love mefeedia they are not only opt-in and they actually went through a period when they sucked in a boat-load of feeds from other services like blip, vimeo, vsocial, youtube etc. i call most of those feeds orphans. but mefeedia is like the best overall vlog/feed aggregator i think and they do a tremendous amount of right stuff so, this is in no way to traject anything negative on mefeedia. they rock and when i can, i help them out with feedback. fireant.tv is opt-in too but last i checked, they also add in their own selections as well. the weird part is the fact that any feed you enter in the app, gets added to a database as part of a review queue and if it looks tasty, it will end up on the web directory. i think you can opt-out of that happening on mac version. but many feeds on fireant.tv are added by fireant themselves as well as the community (whether intended or not). the only time i truly think its nasty to add feeds without opt-in is when some site appears out of nowhere and sucks in feeds and wraps ads around everything. they are obviously just trying to rank high in search results and make a few bucks. no value back to the community and no value to the publishers. its cheap and its dirty. and it creates a bad reputation too. RSS... yes if you put out a feed, as a general rule you are syndicating your content to anyone on the web. Preferably, you want that content grabbed by an audience, not by random aggregator sites. But you also realize that some of the reputable aggregator sites actually do help you gain exposure and get traffic and distribute your media. More people can subscribe to you. It can be a very good thing if you actually want to spread your media. But you should respect the aggregator and if you dont, you should be able to tell them to remove your content. and they should respond asap. network2 seems like they are trying to add value to the community. i think they might succeed. we'll see. vlogdir.com... well the project was one of the originals to come out of this community and its in auto-pilot. it still serves and represents the vlogosphere but i have not personally focused on evolving the project. after all, it is what it is. what else can it be? i promote vlogs that i like a lot... on the site and elsewhere. and every once in a while i need to delete some vietnam tourism site etc but for the most part, the directory has been problem free.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
After re-reading that it appears that I called Casey shit. I do not think that Casey McKinnon is Shit. I think that Galacticast is Shit. On 12/15/06, Adam Quirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Independent producers, the ones doing innovative things, creative things, with their CONTENT, are being left behind in the billion dollar Youtube new media revolution. There are people doing very impressive, intelligent, timeless things. Many of which, idealistically, have no ulterior motives other than to create art. I wrap Richard BF and several other amazing people into this category. They aren't selling me anything. But the people that seem to be glorified in this Videoblogging Yahoo! group are the ones that cater to the lowest common denominator. There was an inherent honesty involved when I joined this group. Inherent because we were all just responding to each other's videos. And I understand that we have outgrown that simplicity (it's become Youtube). I'd like to retain some of that structure if possible though. I'm not sure if it is. I can no longer sit idly by reading glowing reviews of Amanda Across America or Galacticast. I happen to think Casey is a very nice woman. I just think what she and Amanda Congdon are trying to do to the personal media revolution is very contrary to what I think should be happening. Because they are both SHIT. I'm not saying you shouldn't post about either of these pieces of shit, just saying that I can no longer read this email list without responding appropriately to my conscience. Apologies to anyone offended. Ok, AQ On 12/15/06, sull [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: well i will chime in *again*. i have nothing truly against network2. they communicate here and seem like smart, decent people in this space. of course, that is also in best business interests but hey you cant be too skeptical otherwise you would be... paranoid. i've claimed this before, but its important to repeat it especially when a thread like this invites it. vlogdir.com is OPT-IN. from day 1 in April 2005, the directory has been a community-driven directory. I didnt populate it. YOU did. and I am proud of that because i think it is an interesting gauge of this vlog community. I also think that it works mostly as a passive filter. Meaning, people actually take a few moments to submit their videoblog and vodcast (rss feed). That means that they think they have something good to share with others. so they choose to take some measures to do that sharing. vlogdir is always a top 10-20 result in google... so it helps somewhat. I also believe that vlogmap.org has worked this way for almost as long. though i totally love mefeedia they are not only opt-in and they actually went through a period when they sucked in a boat-load of feeds from other services like blip, vimeo, vsocial, youtube etc. i call most of those feeds orphans. but mefeedia is like the best overall vlog/feed aggregator i think and they do a tremendous amount of right stuff so, this is in no way to traject anything negative on mefeedia. they rock and when i can, i help them out with feedback. fireant.tv is opt-in too but last i checked, they also add in their own selections as well. the weird part is the fact that any feed you enter in the app, gets added to a database as part of a review queue and if it looks tasty, it will end up on the web directory. i think you can opt-out of that happening on mac version. but many feeds on fireant.tv are added by fireant themselves as well as the community (whether intended or not). the only time i truly think its nasty to add feeds without opt-in is when some site appears out of nowhere and sucks in feeds and wraps ads around everything. they are obviously just trying to rank high in search results and make a few bucks. no value back to the community and no value to the publishers. its cheap and its dirty. and it creates a bad reputation too. RSS... yes if you put out a feed, as a general rule you are syndicating your content to anyone on the web. Preferably, you want that content grabbed by an audience, not by random aggregator sites. But you also realize that some of the reputable aggregator sites actually do help you gain exposure and get traffic and distribute your media. More people can subscribe to you. It can be a very good thing if you actually want to spread your media. But you should respect the aggregator and if you dont, you should be able to tell them to remove your content. and they should respond asap. network2 seems like they are trying to add value to the community. i think they might succeed. we'll see. vlogdir.com... well the project was one of the originals to come out of this community and its in auto-pilot. it still serves and represents the vlogosphere but
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
As to Network2's involvement in the personal media revolution 3rd paragraph of this http://www.evilvlog.com/?p=6256 deals with the underlying animosity that is brought upon video portal sites, and says exactly this for those that would rather not follow the link: The thing about Network2 or Network3 or Network4 is this: If you want to profit from the work of independent producers, you should ask them first. It's common courtesy. On 12/15/06, Adam Quirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After re-reading that it appears that I called Casey shit. I do not think that Casey McKinnon is Shit. I think that Galacticast is Shit. On 12/15/06, Adam Quirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Independent producers, the ones doing innovative things, creative things, with their CONTENT, are being left behind in the billion dollar Youtube new media revolution. There are people doing very impressive, intelligent, timeless things. Many of which, idealistically, have no ulterior motives other than to create art. I wrap Richard BF and several other amazing people into this category. They aren't selling me anything. But the people that seem to be glorified in this Videoblogging Yahoo! group are the ones that cater to the lowest common denominator. There was an inherent honesty involved when I joined this group. Inherent because we were all just responding to each other's videos. And I understand that we have outgrown that simplicity (it's become Youtube). I'd like to retain some of that structure if possible though. I'm not sure if it is. I can no longer sit idly by reading glowing reviews of Amanda Across America or Galacticast. I happen to think Casey is a very nice woman. I just think what she and Amanda Congdon are trying to do to the personal media revolution is very contrary to what I think should be happening. Because they are both SHIT. I'm not saying you shouldn't post about either of these pieces of shit, just saying that I can no longer read this email list without responding appropriately to my conscience. Apologies to anyone offended. Ok, AQ On 12/15/06, sull [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: well i will chime in *again*. i have nothing truly against network2. they communicate here and seem like smart, decent people in this space. of course, that is also in best business interests but hey you cant be too skeptical otherwise you would be... paranoid. i've claimed this before, but its important to repeat it especially when a thread like this invites it. vlogdir.com is OPT-IN. from day 1 in April 2005, the directory has been a community-driven directory. I didnt populate it. YOU did. and I am proud of that because i think it is an interesting gauge of this vlog community. I also think that it works mostly as a passive filter. Meaning, people actually take a few moments to submit their videoblog and vodcast (rss feed). That means that they think they have something good to share with others. so they choose to take some measures to do that sharing. vlogdir is always a top 10-20 result in google... so it helps somewhat. I also believe that vlogmap.org has worked this way for almost as long. though i totally love mefeedia they are not only opt-in and they actually went through a period when they sucked in a boat-load of feeds from other services like blip, vimeo, vsocial, youtube etc. i call most of those feeds orphans. but mefeedia is like the best overall vlog/feed aggregator i think and they do a tremendous amount of right stuff so, this is in no way to traject anything negative on mefeedia. they rock and when i can, i help them out with feedback. fireant.tv is opt-in too but last i checked, they also add in their own selections as well. the weird part is the fact that any feed you enter in the app, gets added to a database as part of a review queue and if it looks tasty, it will end up on the web directory. i think you can opt-out of that happening on mac version. but many feeds on fireant.tv are added by fireant themselves as well as the community (whether intended or not). the only time i truly think its nasty to add feeds without opt-in is when some site appears out of nowhere and sucks in feeds and wraps ads around everything. they are obviously just trying to rank high in search results and make a few bucks. no value back to the community and no value to the publishers. its cheap and its dirty. and it creates a bad reputation too. RSS... yes if you put out a feed, as a general rule you are syndicating your content to anyone on the web. Preferably, you want that content grabbed by an audience, not by random aggregator sites. But you also realize that some of the reputable aggregator sites
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
...Mefeedia is opt-in I think, but I am not sure about FireAnt, I know that my feed was in there before I I registared in fireant.maybe that has something to do with the 1 click subscription button, I don't know, regardless, it doesn't bother me Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think i see a difference aren't fireant and mefeedia opt-in ? also, i don't think they *feature* sites from people who wish otherwise On Dec 14, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Heath wrote: I don't see what you are doing as any different than Fireant, or MeFeedia, etc. You are providing a way to view video on the web, vlogs, etc.at least you are providing link backs and other things, there are plenty of sites around that just take your feed and you would never know it. Ran across a few of those, now THAT bothers me, just taking, but I don't see what you are doing as wrong. IMO you have been honest and above board, so no worries on my end.. Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, [chrisbrogan.com] group@ wrote: --- Markus Sandy http://feeds.feedburner.com/havemoneywillvlog http://feeds.feedburner.com/apperceptions http://feeds.feedburner.com/digitaldojo http://feeds.feedburner.com/spinflow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
How can you seperate the two? You are calling her work shit, then IMO you are calling her the same thing. And one more thing Apoligies to anyone offended? That's a cop-out, you know you will offend some people, the statement is meant to offend, because you used strong words to invoke a feeling..you could have just said that you don't like it, but to use that word in the context that you used itit seems unduly harsh and mean spirited and offensive... Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Adam Quirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After re-reading that it appears that I called Casey shit. I do not think that Casey McKinnon is Shit. I think that Galacticast is Shit. On 12/15/06, Adam Quirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Independent producers, the ones doing innovative things, creative things, with their CONTENT, are being left behind in the billion dollar Youtube new media revolution. There are people doing very impressive, intelligent, timeless things. Many of which, idealistically, have no ulterior motives other than to create art. I wrap Richard BF and several other amazing people into this category. They aren't selling me anything. But the people that seem to be glorified in this Videoblogging Yahoo! group are the ones that cater to the lowest common denominator. There was an inherent honesty involved when I joined this group. Inherent because we were all just responding to each other's videos. And I understand that we have outgrown that simplicity (it's become Youtube). I'd like to retain some of that structure if possible though. I'm not sure if it is. I can no longer sit idly by reading glowing reviews of Amanda Across America or Galacticast. I happen to think Casey is a very nice woman. I just think what she and Amanda Congdon are trying to do to the personal media revolution is very contrary to what I think should be happening. Because they are both SHIT. I'm not saying you shouldn't post about either of these pieces of shit, just saying that I can no longer read this email list without responding appropriately to my conscience. Apologies to anyone offended. Ok, AQ On 12/15/06, sull [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: well i will chime in *again*. i have nothing truly against network2. they communicate here and seem like smart, decent people in this space. of course, that is also in best business interests but hey you cant be too skeptical otherwise you would be... paranoid. i've claimed this before, but its important to repeat it especially when a thread like this invites it. vlogdir.com is OPT-IN. from day 1 in April 2005, the directory has been a community-driven directory. I didnt populate it. YOU did. and I am proud of that because i think it is an interesting gauge of this vlog community. I also think that it works mostly as a passive filter. Meaning, people actually take a few moments to submit their videoblog and vodcast (rss feed). That means that they think they have something good to share with others. so they choose to take some measures to do that sharing. vlogdir is always a top 10-20 result in google... so it helps somewhat. I also believe that vlogmap.org has worked this way for almost as long. though i totally love mefeedia they are not only opt-in and they actually went through a period when they sucked in a boat-load of feeds from other services like blip, vimeo, vsocial, youtube etc. i call most of those feeds orphans. but mefeedia is like the best overall vlog/feed aggregator i think and they do a tremendous amount of right stuff so, this is in no way to traject anything negative on mefeedia. they rock and when i can, i help them out with feedback. fireant.tv is opt-in too but last i checked, they also add in their own selections as well. the weird part is the fact that any feed you enter in the app, gets added to a database as part of a review queue and if it looks tasty, it will end up on the web directory. i think you can opt-out of that happening on mac version. but many feeds on fireant.tv are added by fireant themselves as well as the community (whether intended or not). the only time i truly think its nasty to add feeds without opt- in is when some site appears out of nowhere and sucks in feeds and wraps ads around everything. they are obviously just trying to rank high in search results and make a few bucks. no value back to the community and no value to the publishers. its cheap and its dirty. and it creates a bad reputation too. RSS... yes if you put out a feed, as a general rule you are syndicating your content to anyone on the web. Preferably, you want that content grabbed by
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
So, in sending out an email to each person we have on our site, telling them what we're about, asking them to check and see if we've represented them appropriately, asking them to call me or email if there are questions or concerns, etc., that's not showing an interest in establishing a relationship? My goal in sending those emails is make sure folks are happy. Believe me, as much as we want to feature your work, show people your original site, promote the great hosting services who you do business with (note the new feature of going so far as to say, Hosted by our friends at Blip.tv or Revver, etc), and provide our reviews, your reviews, tagging, and commentary, our belief is that the community at large matters most. If EVER you don't want to be featured on Network2, please let me know. I have no problem with an easy opt-out. (Please email me or call me directly, because I might miss that call on this very active list). And if you want to go further with us, and if we have a chance to make something neat happen with you in 2007, let us know that, too. As for being a member of the community, I'm co-Founder of PodCamp, the free 2 day unconference series. We sponsored Halloween Videoblog Fest in LA with JETSET and the gang out there. We hosted a videoblogger meetup in San Francisco before the Vloggies, and a few other smaller dinners that weekend. I shoot my own (lame) videoblog: http://smallboxes.blip.tv. I have a podcasting company (well, we don't make much money, but we call it a company-- Grasshopper New Media). And Network2 has supported further development of FireAnt (but I'll let Josh back me up there.) : ) I'm not a suit, though I bought one because Casey told me to dress up for the Vloggies. : ) One last bit (sorry for super long posts lately). The RSS as a relationship tool subject means this to me: RSS enables you to build a connected relationship with your audience. They can find their way back to your site, comment using MyChingo or text or whatever you've set up to help them make this 2 way. It helps you have a sense of how many people are consuming your stuff, and if you use FeedBurner at least (my fave), you know who's using what to view your stuff too. This has been a great discussion. Thank you to everyone for your input. Please continue to let me know (send me email or call me) what matters to you, and what we can do to help. We're working with the folks who've raised concerns (but we only have two developers, so bear with us.) : ) --Chris Brogan... --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Adam Quirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As to Network2's involvement in the personal media revolution 3rd paragraph of this http://www.evilvlog.com/?p=6256 deals with the underlying animosity that is brought upon video portal sites, and says exactly this for those that would rather not follow the link: The thing about Network2 or Network3 or Network4 is this: If you want to profit from the work of independent producers, you should ask them first. It's common courtesy.
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Actually, you can hate the work and like the creator of said work. You dont hate your new puppy for taking a piss on the floor. You love your puppy. You just dont like the behavior. I see nothing wrong with criticism. Be it harsh or mean spirited. Movie critics do it every day. If one is going to create something and then release it into the wild for anyone to form an opinion or write a critique, that person had better be ready to have the proverbial shit hit the fan and it blown in their face. If you don't want criticism, don't make anything and then release it for public scrutiny. David http://www.davidhowellstudios.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How can you seperate the two? You are calling her work shit, then IMO you are calling her the same thing. And one more thing Apoligies to anyone offended? That's a cop-out, you know you will offend some people, the statement is meant to offend, because you used strong words to invoke a feeling..you could have just said that you don't like it, but to use that word in the context that you used itit seems unduly harsh and mean spirited and offensive... Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Adam Quirk bullemhead@ wrote: After re-reading that it appears that I called Casey shit. I do not think that Casey McKinnon is Shit. I think that Galacticast is Shit. On 12/15/06, Adam Quirk bullemhead@ wrote: Independent producers, the ones doing innovative things, creative things, with their CONTENT, are being left behind in the billion dollar Youtube new media revolution. There are people doing very impressive, intelligent, timeless things. Many of which, idealistically, have no ulterior motives other than to create art. I wrap Richard BF and several other amazing people into this category. They aren't selling me anything. But the people that seem to be glorified in this Videoblogging Yahoo! group are the ones that cater to the lowest common denominator. There was an inherent honesty involved when I joined this group. Inherent because we were all just responding to each other's videos. And I understand that we have outgrown that simplicity (it's become Youtube). I'd like to retain some of that structure if possible though. I'm not sure if it is. I can no longer sit idly by reading glowing reviews of Amanda Across America or Galacticast. I happen to think Casey is a very nice woman. I just think what she and Amanda Congdon are trying to do to the personal media revolution is very contrary to what I think should be happening. Because they are both SHIT. I'm not saying you shouldn't post about either of these pieces of shit, just saying that I can no longer read this email list without responding appropriately to my conscience. Apologies to anyone offended. Ok, AQ On 12/15/06, sull sulleleven@ wrote: well i will chime in *again*. i have nothing truly against network2. they communicate here and seem like smart, decent people in this space. of course, that is also in best business interests but hey you cant be too skeptical otherwise you would be... paranoid. i've claimed this before, but its important to repeat it especially when a thread like this invites it. vlogdir.com is OPT-IN. from day 1 in April 2005, the directory has been a community-driven directory. I didnt populate it. YOU did. and I am proud of that because i think it is an interesting gauge of this vlog community. I also think that it works mostly as a passive filter. Meaning, people actually take a few moments to submit their videoblog and vodcast (rss feed). That means that they think they have something good to share with others. so they choose to take some measures to do that sharing. vlogdir is always a top 10-20 result in google... so it helps somewhat. I also believe that vlogmap.org has worked this way for almost as long. though i totally love mefeedia they are not only opt-in and they actually went through a period when they sucked in a boat-load of feeds from other services like blip, vimeo, vsocial, youtube etc. i call most of those feeds orphans. but mefeedia is like the best overall vlog/feed aggregator i think and they do a tremendous amount of right stuff so, this is in no way to traject anything negative on mefeedia. they rock and when i can, i help them out with feedback. fireant.tv is opt-in too but last i checked, they also add in their own selections as well. the weird part is the fact that any feed you enter in the app, gets added to a database as part of a review queue
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
As with any business, we'll work to create the appropriate relationships to share revenue when that comes about. For now, it's more about building awareness, driving attention to the work. Has that caught on yet? The notion that what we're trying to do is separate what YOU do from the average ball-kicking video or skateboard trick video? (Which are okay, and have their place, but aren't of great interest to what we're promoting). Show me how pointing people to what you do that we think is cool is bad. But yes, as for business, if (it better be WHEN) we raise the attention of the world of advertising and all those things, we're here to bring relationships about. One side note about Creative Commons. Today is the 4 year birthday, right? There's a party in NYC for that tonight (I can't make it, sadly). Also, check out Colette Vogel's Legal Guide to Podcasting on Creative Commons' website. It's a great work to know and understand per our other discussion (and I'm not the expert by any means on that). Best to you over the Holidays. By the way, Dear Vlog Santa: I want a wifi-enabled video iPod so I can load up on Batman Geek and Josh Leo without docking at home. I haven't been good. I've had too much to drink at meetups. I told rooms full of videobloggers bad things. I've taken my pants off just for video laughs with Jim Kirks of the Clip Show. :( But does that make me a bad man? --Chris...
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
On Dec 15, 2006, at 6:30 AM, [chrisbrogan.com] wrote: As with any business, we'll work to create the appropriate relationships to share revenue when that comes about. For now, it's more about building awareness, driving attention to the work. I think that this often repeated statement has become the web 2.0 equivalent of the check is in the mail --- Markus Sandy http://feeds.feedburner.com/havemoneywillvlog http://feeds.feedburner.com/apperceptions http://feeds.feedburner.com/digitaldojo http://feeds.feedburner.com/spinflow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
On Dec 15, 2006, at 6:21 AM, [chrisbrogan.com] wrote: If EVER you don't want to be featured on Network2, please let me know. I have no problem with an easy opt-out. (Please email me or call me directly, because I might miss that call on this very active list). that's cheezy opt-out is not the same as opt-in you seem to be from the it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission school of thought how about asking first? as opposed to informing people after the fact --- Markus Sandy http://feeds.feedburner.com/havemoneywillvlog http://feeds.feedburner.com/apperceptions http://feeds.feedburner.com/digitaldojo http://feeds.feedburner.com/spinflow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Normally I would agree with that thought process, but in this case it just seemed, unduly harsh, in my opinion.especialy considering that this thread had nothing to do with Amanda or Casey or their work Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, David Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, you can hate the work and like the creator of said work. You dont hate your new puppy for taking a piss on the floor. You love your puppy. You just dont like the behavior. I see nothing wrong with criticism. Be it harsh or mean spirited. Movie critics do it every day. If one is going to create something and then release it into the wild for anyone to form an opinion or write a critique, that person had better be ready to have the proverbial shit hit the fan and it blown in their face. If you don't want criticism, don't make anything and then release it for public scrutiny. David http://www.davidhowellstudios.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Heath heathparks@ wrote: How can you seperate the two? You are calling her work shit, then IMO you are calling her the same thing. And one more thing Apoligies to anyone offended? That's a cop-out, you know you will offend some people, the statement is meant to offend, because you used strong words to invoke a feeling..you could have just said that you don't like it, but to use that word in the context that you used itit seems unduly harsh and mean spirited and offensive... Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Adam Quirk bullemhead@ wrote: After re-reading that it appears that I called Casey shit. I do not think that Casey McKinnon is Shit. I think that Galacticast is Shit. On 12/15/06, Adam Quirk bullemhead@ wrote: Independent producers, the ones doing innovative things, creative things, with their CONTENT, are being left behind in the billion dollar Youtube new media revolution. There are people doing very impressive, intelligent, timeless things. Many of which, idealistically, have no ulterior motives other than to create art. I wrap Richard BF and several other amazing people into this category. They aren't selling me anything. But the people that seem to be glorified in this Videoblogging Yahoo! group are the ones that cater to the lowest common denominator. There was an inherent honesty involved when I joined this group. Inherent because we were all just responding to each other's videos. And I understand that we have outgrown that simplicity (it's become Youtube). I'd like to retain some of that structure if possible though. I'm not sure if it is. I can no longer sit idly by reading glowing reviews of Amanda Across America or Galacticast. I happen to think Casey is a very nice woman. I just think what she and Amanda Congdon are trying to do to the personal media revolution is very contrary to what I think should be happening. Because they are both SHIT. I'm not saying you shouldn't post about either of these pieces of shit, just saying that I can no longer read this email list without responding appropriately to my conscience. Apologies to anyone offended. Ok, AQ On 12/15/06, sull sulleleven@ wrote: well i will chime in *again*. i have nothing truly against network2. they communicate here and seem like smart, decent people in this space. of course, that is also in best business interests but hey you cant be too skeptical otherwise you would be... paranoid. i've claimed this before, but its important to repeat it especially when a thread like this invites it. vlogdir.com is OPT-IN. from day 1 in April 2005, the directory has been a community-driven directory. I didnt populate it. YOU did. and I am proud of that because i think it is an interesting gauge of this vlog community. I also think that it works mostly as a passive filter. Meaning, people actually take a few moments to submit their videoblog and vodcast (rss feed). That means that they think they have something good to share with others. so they choose to take some measures to do that sharing. vlogdir is always a top 10-20 result in google... so it helps somewhat. I also believe that vlogmap.org has worked this way for almost as long. though i totally love mefeedia they are not only opt-in and they actually went through a period when they sucked in a boat- load of feeds from other services like blip, vimeo, vsocial, youtube etc. i call most of those feeds orphans.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Chris, As with any business, we'll work to create the appropriate relationships to share revenue when that comes about. For now, it's more about building awareness, driving attention to the work. Has that caught on yet? The notion that what we're trying to do is separate what YOU do from the average ball-kicking video or skateboard trick video? You could always switch gears and create a new Net Video Review Show to accomplish an awareness campaign for the content that N2 feels is deserving. Others do this, like Steve garfield etc. Or maybe that is already planned in addition to having web real estate for ads/sponsors and video ads. sull On 12/15/06, [chrisbrogan.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As with any business, we'll work to create the appropriate relationships to share revenue when that comes about. For now, it's more about building awareness, driving attention to the work. Has that caught on yet? The notion that what we're trying to do is separate what YOU do from the average ball-kicking video or skateboard trick video? (Which are okay, and have their place, but aren't of great interest to what we're promoting). Show me how pointing people to what you do that we think is cool is bad. But yes, as for business, if (it better be WHEN) we raise the attention of the world of advertising and all those things, we're here to bring relationships about. One side note about Creative Commons. Today is the 4 year birthday, right? There's a party in NYC for that tonight (I can't make it, sadly). Also, check out Colette Vogel's Legal Guide to Podcasting on Creative Commons' website. It's a great work to know and understand per our other discussion (and I'm not the expert by any means on that). Best to you over the Holidays. By the way, Dear Vlog Santa: I want a wifi-enabled video iPod so I can load up on Batman Geek and Josh Leo without docking at home. I haven't been good. I've had too much to drink at meetups. I told rooms full of videobloggers bad things. I've taken my pants off just for video laughs with Jim Kirks of the Clip Show. :( But does that make me a bad man? --Chris... -- Sull http://vlogdir.com (a project) http://SpreadTheMedia.org (my blog) http://interdigitate.com (otherly) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Here's my edited response to all this from 3vilvlog: We make money, you make money. Is that in an agreement someplace? That should be front and center. Everyone wants our content these days, and everyone wants it for free so they can make money off of it and we get squat. So skepticism is a natural first response. Here's a question I don't know the answer to: How does TV Guide work? Who pays whom? Obviously a TV show or channel would be foolish to not be included in a tv guide or online program guides. And obviously, in the case of TV Guide, they make money off of that. In return, they bring an audience. It's a tradeoff. Same thing is happening right now in online video. Networks and guides are popping up. At the outset we'll have a lot of them. Blip is trying to be that for their own content, same with Revver, same with MySpace. Mefeedia has always been a guide for vlogging, but I think they're lacking in resources and interface. (But I still love you!) I think Network2 can be a good, useful guide to online shows/vlogs/etc and I personally *want* the stuff I produce to be linked and seen by more people. And yes, if they make money, I want to make money. Something that's never really been resolved: By the act of publishing with RSS aren't we allowing this kind of usage? Aren't we saying, spread my content?
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
On Dec 15, 2006, at 10:56 AM, Chuck Olsen wrote: Here's a question I don't know the answer to: How does TV Guide work? Who pays whom? this may be related: http://www.cmcsk.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=118591p=irol- newsArticleID=493748highlight= they also: 1. syndicate TV Guide Online Signs Agreements to Syndicate Its Program Listings Grids to Fox Interactive Media http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/061120/20061120005605.html?.v=1 2. patent Gemstar-TV Guide inks patent license agreement with Philips http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/gemstar-tv-guide-inks-patent- license/story.aspx?guid=%7BC91BAB30-3DC3-40F3-8452-A86E3362FCDD%7D 3. and (once you have a patent) litigate Pioneer And TV Guide Sign Agreement Resolving Pending Litigation http://www.rtoonline.com/content/article/feb04/ pioneertvguideagreement022704.asp 4. merge with competitors Gemstar-TV Guide Assessed $5.67 Million Civil Penalty for Illegal Premerger Coordination http://www.perkinscoie.com/content/ren/updates/antitrust/ update_gemstar.htm from wikipedia, which has very little to say about chuck's question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Guide TV Guide is owned by Gemstar-TV Guide International, Inc., which is in turn owned partially by News Corporation. --- Markus Sandy http://feeds.feedburner.com/havemoneywillvlog http://feeds.feedburner.com/apperceptions http://feeds.feedburner.com/digitaldojo http://feeds.feedburner.com/spinflow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
After further consideration I think part of the problem is that parts of your messages and confirmation emails to people sound a bit arrogant. Some peeps are tired of being told how much good these 3rd party leeches are going to do for them. It can hardly be new that relationships between creators and promoters can be tricky things. It would be stretching things too far to say taht you guys are like a promoter putting a musicians name on the poster for an event before checking with the artist, then telling them its for their own good and how much publicity they'll get. Im off to learn more about your founder as it does matter, cant have it both ways, cant be in business press talking about how this stuff is going to be the next big thing, without some detail demonstrating that its not just going to be another leech's empire built off the backs of other people. I mean even the name, comparing it to traditional tv networks, ugh, it sets off alarm bells. If they can already afford to pay you and other staff, why cant they shell out some money on the cntent creators even at this early stage? Im being too harsh, but your responses so far have given me no faith, not really sure why. On the technical side of what counts as good etiquette regarding linking to peoples content, embedding videos in the site etc, there is no safe asumnption that will keep all content creators happy. Services who have re-hosted videos get dissed for various reasons, you have avoided that, but some people will be upset that you are embedding their videos from their servers, thus using their bandwidth. Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, [chrisbrogan.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As with any business, we'll work to create the appropriate relationships to share revenue when that comes about. For now, it's more about building awareness, driving attention to the work. Has that caught on yet? The notion that what we're trying to do is separate what YOU do from the average ball-kicking video or skateboard trick video? (Which are okay, and have their place, but aren't of great interest to what we're promoting). Show me how pointing people to what you do that we think is cool is bad. But yes, as for business, if (it better be WHEN) we raise the attention of the world of advertising and all those things, we're here to bring relationships about. One side note about Creative Commons. Today is the 4 year birthday, right? There's a party in NYC for that tonight (I can't make it, sadly). Also, check out Colette Vogel's Legal Guide to Podcasting on Creative Commons' website. It's a great work to know and understand per our other discussion (and I'm not the expert by any means on that). Best to you over the Holidays. By the way, Dear Vlog Santa: I want a wifi-enabled video iPod so I can load up on Batman Geek and Josh Leo without docking at home. I haven't been good. I've had too much to drink at meetups. I told rooms full of videobloggers bad things. I've taken my pants off just for video laughs with Jim Kirks of the Clip Show. :( But does that make me a bad man? --Chris...
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Okay I soon foudn this on businessweek: http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2006/10/network2tv_vona.html Oh how I am reassured, not... Here's where this gets really interesting: Pulver believes that, in 2007, we'll see the rise of a new TV network that will eventually compete with the likes of NBC, ABC and CNN. He believes that this new TV network will be Web-based. And he hopes it will be Network2.tv. Is this an accurate statement about the goals of network2? I dont even know where to start with tearing this apart, I'm sure I'll get round to it soon. Cheers Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After further consideration I think part of the problem is that parts of your messages and confirmation emails to people sound a bit arrogant.
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
I'd be curious to hear why you think it's a bad idea? Vlog networks are inevitable. PodTech is a podcast network of sorts. There are a lot of people making shows that want to do that for a living. Many of them spend all of their time making great content, but have no time or perhaps expertise in business or infrastructure or promotion. There are a lot of potential advantages for those folks to band together, or otherwise be part of a larger network that can do all of that for them and probably bring a bigger audience, too. --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay I soon foudn this on businessweek: http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2006/10/ network2tv_vona.html Oh how I am reassured, not... Here's where this gets really interesting: Pulver believes that, in 2007, we'll see the rise of a new TV network that will eventually compete with the likes of NBC, ABC and CNN. He believes that this new TV network will be Web-based. And he hopes it will be Network2.tv. Is this an accurate statement about the goals of network2? I dont even know where to start with tearing this apart, I'm sure I'll get round to it soon. Cheers Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Steve Watkins steve@ wrote: After further consideration I think part of the problem is that parts of your messages and confirmation emails to people sound a bit arrogant.
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
I agree. But it should definately be opt-in, not opt-out. And if there is a business plan to make the thing a cash-generator, the earlier the realities of passing some of this cash to the creators comes up, the better. I was also annoyed because these companies never seem to want to acknowledge that they arent first, or at least there are some close comparisons. I mean if I fire up itunes and browse their podcast and video-podcast directory, isnt it already crammed with such episodic show formula videos? So why arent they comparing themselves to these things, to podcasts and podcast networks, instead of the TV model. I mean the whole thing about competing with the networks, arent the networks already competing with people watching video on the internet? Im sure there will be plenty of people who wont have my objections, if they think the deal is good for them then fair play to them. Id like to learn more about how these things have progressed with podcasting, whether there are many examples of networks that pay the creators before they are themselves generating much income. Whats the story with podshow and things like that? Cheers Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Olsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd be curious to hear why you think it's a bad idea? Vlog networks are inevitable. PodTech is a podcast network of sorts. There are a lot of people making shows that want to do that for a living. Many of them spend all of their time making great content, but have no time or perhaps expertise in business or infrastructure or promotion. There are a lot of potential advantages for those folks to band together, or otherwise be part of a larger network that can do all of that for them and probably bring a bigger audience, too. --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Steve Watkins steve@ wrote: Okay I soon foudn this on businessweek: http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2006/10/ network2tv_vona.html Oh how I am reassured, not... Here's where this gets really interesting: Pulver believes that, in 2007, we'll see the rise of a new TV network that will eventually compete with the likes of NBC, ABC and CNN. He believes that this new TV network will be Web-based. And he hopes it will be Network2.tv. Is this an accurate statement about the goals of network2? I dont even know where to start with tearing this apart, I'm sure I'll get round to it soon. Cheers Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Steve Watkins steve@ wrote: After further consideration I think part of the problem is that parts of your messages and confirmation emails to people sound a bit arrogant.
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
I got this hilarious bunch of emails from David at Mommy.tv (a really great show- and if you've seen The Clip Show, Jim Kirks called me out!). It TOTALLY seems to point out what some of the animosity is: David has four emails from four separate companies saying almost the same thing. We're one in a series. All of them say something like, This is really great stuff. We'd love to feature you. Blah blah. Believe me, four is a small number. There will be 104 by the end of 2007. Some will have most people's best interest in mind. Some will be a silly idea. Some will make it just by having the right connections. Some will become notorious for making crucial missteps. Network2 might be no different. Who am I to say? But I have some thoughts on why *I* think we're different. I've been at this doing various video projects for a while now (I did New Media School before http://smallboxes.blip.tv ). My boss, Jeff Pulver, has been promoting the fact that independent video creation and distribution is key to the future, that sharing via RSS is important, and that this space needs to stay open and not walled (most IPTV deals are walled garden content). We promote sharing via easy distribution. We promote downloadable content so that people can enjoy shows on a portable device, while off the Internet, etc. (If I had to fly to San Fran without a laptop full of videoblogs, I'd have gone snakey.) We would love to help folks make money through bringing content together. The argument that paying me means we have money to pay videobloggers for content is interesting, but I can't think of a proper and non-snarky response. I worked 90+ hours a week since April (40 for my old day job) and 50 on my own video and audio projects plus PodCamp. The 50+ hours were unpaid. I actually found a job where I'm paid to meet the community through events like PodCamp, the Halloween Videoblog Fest, the Vloggies, PME, Video on the Net, etc. I'm paid to reach out to people and try to bring more attention to your work. I don't think I'll apologize for that. You'll have plenty of choices to make over 2007 and maybe some of 2008. The choices will entail how you want to proceed with your projects, how you want to be represented or not in this space. You'll see some people making huge deals with major traditional studios (oh wait! We already did). You'll see some people make decent cash their own way (did you buy a duckie?) We're offering a way to point people to your sites, your work. We've built ways for you to share collections of your favorite shows with others. We've built tagging, sharing, etc. Swing by. Oh, and just one more time for the chorus: If you like the site, but we've somehow got something wrong about your page, let me know and we'll work to fix it (iteratively at times). There's only two developers and they're working their head off to build more features). If you don't want to be on the site, please contact me via email or phone. If you want to meet up when I'm somewhere near your neck of the woods, I'll always post event invites, because I always want to meet folks. I'm sleepy and happy to be back to Boston. --Chris...
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Yes thats part of the problem, although Id guess theres already been more than 4. Many of them did the hosting thing too, but at least that made them more like a real network, covering the 'distribution costs' themselves. If you really were just a guide then I dont think there would be the same problem. But you fall somewhere between a guide and something else, because guides dont embed the entire content of the shows they are a guide to within their site. You mentioned creative commons previously, and I think this could play into why some people would have a problem with the embedding. If they license their work as 'non-commercial' then is this broken by a commercial entity such as yourselves embedding the video within your site? There are also rules about displaying the license with the work, so you need to check you arent throwing away license info from the creators when you embed the content of their videos in your site. I note you havent yet removed the embedded videos of the person whose complaint about this that first caused you to post about it here. If theres going to be a flood of services doing us all such a wonderful favour in 2007 as you guys are, then I'll have to lend some energy to projects designed to help all sides understand these matter. Please sort out the missing notification email address on your DMCA copyright page. Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, [chrisbrogan.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got this hilarious bunch of emails from David at Mommy.tv (a really great show- and if you've seen The Clip Show, Jim Kirks called me out!). It TOTALLY seems to point out what some of the animosity is: David has four emails from four separate companies saying almost the same thing. We're one in a series. All of them say something like, This is really great stuff. We'd love to feature you. Blah blah. Believe me, four is a small number. There will be 104 by the end of 2007. Some will have most people's best interest in mind. Some will be a silly idea. Some will make it just by having the right connections. Some will become notorious for making crucial missteps. Network2 might be no different. Who am I to say? But I have some thoughts on why *I* think we're different. I've been at this doing various video projects for a while now (I did New Media School before http://smallboxes.blip.tv ). My boss, Jeff Pulver, has been promoting the fact that independent video creation and distribution is key to the future, that sharing via RSS is important, and that this space needs to stay open and not walled (most IPTV deals are walled garden content). We promote sharing via easy distribution. We promote downloadable content so that people can enjoy shows on a portable device, while off the Internet, etc. (If I had to fly to San Fran without a laptop full of videoblogs, I'd have gone snakey.) We would love to help folks make money through bringing content together. The argument that paying me means we have money to pay videobloggers for content is interesting, but I can't think of a proper and non-snarky response. I worked 90+ hours a week since April (40 for my old day job) and 50 on my own video and audio projects plus PodCamp. The 50+ hours were unpaid. I actually found a job where I'm paid to meet the community through events like PodCamp, the Halloween Videoblog Fest, the Vloggies, PME, Video on the Net, etc. I'm paid to reach out to people and try to bring more attention to your work. I don't think I'll apologize for that. You'll have plenty of choices to make over 2007 and maybe some of 2008. The choices will entail how you want to proceed with your projects, how you want to be represented or not in this space. You'll see some people making huge deals with major traditional studios (oh wait! We already did). You'll see some people make decent cash their own way (did you buy a duckie?) We're offering a way to point people to your sites, your work. We've built ways for you to share collections of your favorite shows with others. We've built tagging, sharing, etc. Swing by. Oh, and just one more time for the chorus: If you like the site, but we've somehow got something wrong about your page, let me know and we'll work to fix it (iteratively at times). There's only two developers and they're working their head off to build more features). If you don't want to be on the site, please contact me via email or phone. If you want to meet up when I'm somewhere near your neck of the woods, I'll always post event invites, because I always want to meet folks. I'm sleepy and happy to be back to Boston. --Chris...
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
I do agree, upt o a point. If they were either opt-in, or didnt embed the video in the pages without seeking permission first, I doubt Id have ranted about them at all. And Im not ranting to drive them away, just trying to have the usual discussions about the detail. Im afraid I do come across as ostile quite often, this is nothing new, and as long as people make big presumptions I will probably continue to get overexcited from time-to-time. I used to enjoy the long conversations about exactly what creative commons 'commercial use' meant, ramifications etc, but I cant blame many for not wanting to bore themselves silly on the details. Commercial entities have a duty to look into this stuff at least as much as a nonentity like I have though, I would of thought? I recognise that many types of online video shows need partners to help with with aspects such as promotion. But Ive ranted before about what happens if there are more hosting/directory/netork etc sites than there are shows. Surely that should instantly put the creators in a strong position to leverage the value that is clearly seen in their work. But instead it seems likely that there will just be an ever-increasing explosion in sites trying to get a piece of the action by sitting in the middle. If the serives they offer are compelling then good, but they do need to ask first for most things. Out of interest when the network2.tv site says things like 'our friends at blip.tv' (and revver and some others), do these entities have a relationship with network2 or is this just an interesting choice of words to refer to specific videos being hosted on blip? Cheers Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, sull [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it's these exact conversations that allow me to continue to believe that for such services, opt-in rules. whether or not vlogdir is ever a focus of discussion here,, i can alway rely on this simple fact its opt-in. no need to have to claim your content with an account. Sure, i am making a point to stand out. That's because its a standard I have held for so long. ignore it. thats fine. but that standard has been there not for me, but for those who have decided to add their content to the vlogdir. still, steve. i think we need to be open to services like network2... sure, they are looking atr this as a potential business success. i dont quite think that there is enough business to sustain such an operation beyond traditional ads on the web but for many, and many yet to come, guides/directories are friends. ads or no ads, for many they will help bring awareness to content. Such efforts offer value. You cannot really deny this fact. Some may want to syndicate to only a small group yet others may want to get their message or their entertainment out to the masses. network2, vlogdir, mefeedia, itunes etc help do that. nothing wrong with that. ads or no ads. sull On 12/15/06, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes thats part of the problem, although Id guess theres already been more than 4. Many of them did the hosting thing too, but at least that made them more like a real network, covering the 'distribution costs' themselves. If you really were just a guide then I dont think there would be the same problem. But you fall somewhere between a guide and something else, because guides dont embed the entire content of the shows they are a guide to within their site. You mentioned creative commons previously, and I think this could play into why some people would have a problem with the embedding. If they license their work as 'non-commercial' then is this broken by a commercial entity such as yourselves embedding the video within your site? There are also rules about displaying the license with the work, so you need to check you arent throwing away license info from the creators when you embed the content of their videos in your site. I note you havent yet removed the embedded videos of the person whose complaint about this that first caused you to post about it here. If theres going to be a flood of services doing us all such a wonderful favour in 2007 as you guys are, then I'll have to lend some energy to projects designed to help all sides understand these matter. Please sort out the missing notification email address on your DMCA copyright page. Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com, [ chrisbrogan.com] group@ wrote: I got this hilarious bunch of emails from David at Mommy.tv (a really great show- and if you've seen The Clip Show, Jim Kirks called me out!). It TOTALLY seems to point out what some of the animosity is: David has four emails from four separate companies saying almost the same thing. We're one in a series. All of them say something like, This is really great stuff. We'd love to feature you. Blah blah.
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
Damn Chuck, here's where I whap you over the nose with a newspaper... We need to talk. --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Olsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's my edited response to all this from 3vilvlog: We make money, you make money. Is that in an agreement someplace? That should be front and center. Everyone wants our content these days, and everyone wants it for free so they can make money off of it and we get squat. So skepticism is a natural first response. Here's a question I don't know the answer to: How does TV Guide work? Who pays whom? Obviously a TV show or channel would be foolish to not be included in a tv guide or online program guides. And obviously, in the case of TV Guide, they make money off of that. In return, they bring an audience. It's a tradeoff. Same thing is happening right now in online video. Networks and guides are popping up. At the outset we'll have a lot of them. Blip is trying to be that for their own content, same with Revver, same with MySpace. Mefeedia has always been a guide for vlogging, but I think they're lacking in resources and interface. (But I still love you!) I think Network2 can be a good, useful guide to online shows/vlogs/etc and I personally *want* the stuff I produce to be linked and seen by more people. And yes, if they make money, I want to make money. Something that's never really been resolved: By the act of publishing with RSS aren't we allowing this kind of usage? Aren't we saying, spread my content?
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
I don't see what you are doing as any different than Fireant, or MeFeedia, etc. You are providing a way to view video on the web, vlogs, etc.at least you are providing link backs and other things, there are plenty of sites around that just take your feed and you would never know it. Ran across a few of those, now THAT bothers me, just taking, but I don't see what you are doing as wrong. IMO you have been honest and above board, so no worries on my end.. Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, [chrisbrogan.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bear with me (sorry about the length). I wanted to talk about your take on RSS as a tool for relationship building and promotion. I'm looking for your thoughts and feelings, and want to talk about what we're doing at Network2. Our belief is that RSS (really simple syndication) is a great tool for anyone producing quality content to promote your work, to reach more audiences, to give viewers and friends the opportunity to remix your show into their own personal channel of entertainment (or storytelling, or communication- depending on the videoblogs you like to follow). When we find shows promoting their episodes through RSS, it's another vote against the walled garden of big media plays. The other day, a guy in my office told me that I can watch NBC's Heroes on the Internet. I don't watch TV. It's not even plugged in. But I have a thing for superheroes. So, okay. I went to watch. The ads weren't a big deal. I'm okay with that. The format was flash, which is okay. But man! I couldn't take the REST of the episode with me on the plane ride to JFK from Boston. So, bye Heroes. I'm back to watching Goodnight Burbank, Galacticast, Something to Be Desired, Josh Leo's cool new show. RSS is a tool that keeps me connected to shows I want to watch. It lets me load my laptop with content to watch later. It lets me share the shows with people I want to see the show. It lets me mix my own channel, be my own media mogul and promote shows I love (Jetset, Rocketboom, Scriggity, Michael Verdi, etc, etc). So I get an angry email from someone today. They also blogged it, including my letter welcoming them to Network2, telling them how I'm featuring their stuff, how we link back, etc. They were really upset. Looking at my page on your guide, it appears that there would no reason for anyone to ever visit my site or directly access my work since you pull, without any kind of permission, everything from my feed and play it IN FULL on your site. So, at Network2, we prominently display YOUR website, your RSS, your programming. It's done by the simple mechanism of using Really Simple Syndication (how web sites share information with other websites). We never diffuse the brand. We promote the brand. We don't re-cast, watermark, or otherwise alter your work. We just show people that you're doing good work. We believe the future of networks is being able to establish relationships between producers and their content via RSS. We think having a site that helps peeople find the good stuff, lets people rate and review the stuff (we launched that feature yesterday), that partners with FireAnt and helps people load their portable device with quality content. The letter goes on to say he wants his cut of the check once we start making money. Well, duh. If we find a way to grow the revenue stream of videobloggers, we're sharing. Hell, we just want to find a way to promote the showcase of work. Get eyeballs together. Get people to agree that this stuff ROCKS, and that more people need it in their lives. Wanna come see us prove that? I'll talk to anyone who wants to hang out in San Jose in March for our neato show. Anyhow, what's your take ? --Chris Brogan... Community Developer Network2.tv
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
i think i see a difference aren't fireant and mefeedia opt-in ? also, i don't think they *feature* sites from people who wish otherwise On Dec 14, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Heath wrote: I don't see what you are doing as any different than Fireant, or MeFeedia, etc. You are providing a way to view video on the web, vlogs, etc.at least you are providing link backs and other things, there are plenty of sites around that just take your feed and you would never know it. Ran across a few of those, now THAT bothers me, just taking, but I don't see what you are doing as wrong. IMO you have been honest and above board, so no worries on my end.. Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, [chrisbrogan.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Markus Sandy http://feeds.feedburner.com/havemoneywillvlog http://feeds.feedburner.com/apperceptions http://feeds.feedburner.com/digitaldojo http://feeds.feedburner.com/spinflow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
This eventually leads us to the question of RSS usage... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS_%28file_format%29#Usage RSS is short for Really Simple *Syndication*. When we publish our RSS files publicly, it is implied that we authorize the syndicating of our content. At that point, I think there is very little control over who/where/how your content is actually syndicated. The whole point is to free content, not restrict it. -Matt http://vlogmap.org --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think i see a difference aren't fireant and mefeedia opt-in ? also, i don't think they *feature* sites from people who wish otherwise On Dec 14, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Heath wrote: I don't see what you are doing as any different than Fireant, or MeFeedia, etc. You are providing a way to view video on the web, vlogs, etc.at least you are providing link backs and other things, there are plenty of sites around that just take your feed and you would never know it. Ran across a few of those, now THAT bothers me, just taking, but I don't see what you are doing as wrong. IMO you have been honest and above board, so no worries on my end.. Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, [chrisbrogan.com] group@ wrote: --- Markus Sandy http://feeds.feedburner.com/havemoneywillvlog http://feeds.feedburner.com/apperceptions http://feeds.feedburner.com/digitaldojo http://feeds.feedburner.com/spinflow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
hmmm. what kind of *syndication* does that refer to? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndication i notice that the *implication* is that most are *paid* On Dec 14, 2006, at 4:25 PM, leanbackvids wrote: This eventually leads us to the question of RSS usage... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS_%28file_format%29#Usage RSS is short for Really Simple *Syndication*. When we publish our RSS files publicly, it is implied that we authorize the syndicating of our content. At that point, I think there is very little control over who/where/how your content is actually syndicated. The whole point is to free content, not restrict it. -Matt http://vlogmap.org --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think i see a difference aren't fireant and mefeedia opt-in ? also, i don't think they *feature* sites from people who wish otherwise On Dec 14, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Heath wrote: I don't see what you are doing as any different than Fireant, or MeFeedia, etc. You are providing a way to view video on the web, vlogs, etc.at least you are providing link backs and other things, there are plenty of sites around that just take your feed and you would never know it. Ran across a few of those, now THAT bothers me, just taking, but I don't see what you are doing as wrong. IMO you have been honest and above board, so no worries on my end.. --- Markus Sandy http://feeds.feedburner.com/havemoneywillvlog http://feeds.feedburner.com/apperceptions http://feeds.feedburner.com/digitaldojo http://feeds.feedburner.com/spinflow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
The Wikipedia page for Web syndication mentions licensing, but contrasts it with web feeds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_syndication --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hmmm. what kind of *syndication* does that refer to? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndication i notice that the *implication* is that most are *paid* On Dec 14, 2006, at 4:25 PM, leanbackvids wrote: This eventually leads us to the question of RSS usage... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS_%28file_format%29#Usage RSS is short for Really Simple *Syndication*. When we publish our RSS files publicly, it is implied that we authorize the syndicating of our content. At that point, I think there is very little control over who/where/how your content is actually syndicated. The whole point is to free content, not restrict it. -Matt http://vlogmap.org --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Markus Sandy markus.sandy@ wrote: i think i see a difference aren't fireant and mefeedia opt-in ? also, i don't think they *feature* sites from people who wish otherwise On Dec 14, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Heath wrote: I don't see what you are doing as any different than Fireant, or MeFeedia, etc. You are providing a way to view video on the web, vlogs, etc.at least you are providing link backs and other things, there are plenty of sites around that just take your feed and you would never know it. Ran across a few of those, now THAT bothers me, just taking, but I don't see what you are doing as wrong. IMO you have been honest and above board, so no worries on my end.. --- Markus Sandy http://feeds.feedburner.com/havemoneywillvlog http://feeds.feedburner.com/apperceptions http://feeds.feedburner.com/digitaldojo http://feeds.feedburner.com/spinflow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
I believe the problem arises from the fact that different people have different ideas about why they are providing some sort of syndication feed. Some arent really interested in syndication at all - they want their audience to be able to use software to automatically subscribe to and download their shows, ala podcasting. But they dont want their show content to be watchable from other websites. Some may not mind the summary of their content being syndicated, but want people to visit their site to see the actual video. Feeds without enclosures would serve this purpose. Some dont mind if the whole lot is available on other sites, just so long as its probably attributed with links back to their site. Likewise some people will really love having as many partners, networks, directories etc helping them with publicity etc. But some are probably interested in net video because they cant stand that stuff and want to avoid middlemen, and the modern equivalent of tv networks etc. In my opinion this is not going to get sorted any time soon, and so the real savvy thing to do is never make assumptions, always ask. And dont be surprised that some people wont think your service is a help to them, or are cynical about whats in it for you etc. If there is one assumption you could safely make, its that people like to be in control. From what Ive seen network2 has avoided some of the worst pitfalls and assumptions, but you could go even further to ensure the content creators feel respected etc. I would suggest that if you do not want to miss out on listing quality shows that may not want their video to be playable directly through your site, you could turn off that feature for their feeds and clicking on them instead takes the visitor to the content-creators site. That could be the default mode of operation for any show where you havent get got round to seeking explicit permission from the creator to embed their video. As for the title 'RSS as Relationship Tool', Im not sure I know of any real relationships that are fully automated using technology. Cheers Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, leanbackvids [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Wikipedia page for Web syndication mentions licensing, but contrasts it with web feeds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_syndication --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Markus Sandy markus.sandy@ wrote: hmmm. what kind of *syndication* does that refer to? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndication i notice that the *implication* is that most are *paid* On Dec 14, 2006, at 4:25 PM, leanbackvids wrote: This eventually leads us to the question of RSS usage... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS_%28file_format%29#Usage RSS is short for Really Simple *Syndication*. When we publish our RSS files publicly, it is implied that we authorize the syndicating of our content. At that point, I think there is very little control over who/where/how your content is actually syndicated. The whole point is to free content, not restrict it. -Matt http://vlogmap.org --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Markus Sandy markus.sandy@ wrote: i think i see a difference aren't fireant and mefeedia opt-in ? also, i don't think they *feature* sites from people who wish otherwise On Dec 14, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Heath wrote: I don't see what you are doing as any different than Fireant, or MeFeedia, etc. You are providing a way to view video on the web, vlogs, etc.at least you are providing link backs and other things, there are plenty of sites around that just take your feed and you would never know it. Ran across a few of those, now THAT bothers me, just taking, but I don't see what you are doing as wrong. IMO you have been honest and above board, so no worries on my end.. --- Markus Sandy http://feeds.feedburner.com/havemoneywillvlog http://feeds.feedburner.com/apperceptions http://feeds.feedburner.com/digitaldojo http://feeds.feedburner.com/spinflow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: RSS as Relationship Tool
well i will chime in *again*. i have nothing truly against network2. they communicate here and seem like smart, decent people in this space. of course, that is also in best business interests but hey you cant be too skeptical otherwise you would be... paranoid. i've claimed this before, but its important to repeat it especially when a thread like this invites it. vlogdir.com is OPT-IN. from day 1 in April 2005, the directory has been a community-driven directory. I didnt populate it. YOU did. and I am proud of that because i think it is an interesting gauge of this vlog community. I also think that it works mostly as a passive filter. Meaning, people actually take a few moments to submit their videoblog and vodcast (rss feed). That means that they think they have something good to share with others. so they choose to take some measures to do that sharing. vlogdir is always a top 10-20 result in google... so it helps somewhat. I also believe that vlogmap.org has worked this way for almost as long. though i totally love mefeedia they are not only opt-in and they actually went through a period when they sucked in a boat-load of feeds from other services like blip, vimeo, vsocial, youtube etc. i call most of those feeds orphans. but mefeedia is like the best overall vlog/feed aggregator i think and they do a tremendous amount of right stuff so, this is in no way to traject anything negative on mefeedia. they rock and when i can, i help them out with feedback. fireant.tv is opt-in too but last i checked, they also add in their own selections as well. the weird part is the fact that any feed you enter in the app, gets added to a database as part of a review queue and if it looks tasty, it will end up on the web directory. i think you can opt-out of that happening on mac version. but many feeds on fireant.tv are added by fireant themselves as well as the community (whether intended or not). the only time i truly think its nasty to add feeds without opt-in is when some site appears out of nowhere and sucks in feeds and wraps ads around everything. they are obviously just trying to rank high in search results and make a few bucks. no value back to the community and no value to the publishers. its cheap and its dirty. and it creates a bad reputation too. RSS... yes if you put out a feed, as a general rule you are syndicating your content to anyone on the web. Preferably, you want that content grabbed by an audience, not by random aggregator sites. But you also realize that some of the reputable aggregator sites actually do help you gain exposure and get traffic and distribute your media. More people can subscribe to you. It can be a very good thing if you actually want to spread your media. But you should respect the aggregator and if you dont, you should be able to tell them to remove your content. and they should respond asap. network2 seems like they are trying to add value to the community. i think they might succeed. we'll see. vlogdir.com... well the project was one of the originals to come out of this community and its in auto-pilot. it still serves and represents the vlogosphere but i have not personally focused on evolving the project. after all, it is what it is. what else can it be? i promote vlogs that i like a lot... on the site and elsewhere. and every once in a while i need to delete some vietnam tourism site etc but for the most part, the directory has been problem free. thats a success story. to me at least. maybe in 2007, i will carve a little time out to improve the site. in mean time, make sure any agg-newcomers work like mefeedia, vlogdir, fireant, vlogmap, blip. the originals who give full attribution and add value to the community. oh, i suppose network2 as well ;) sull On 12/14/06, Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think i see a difference aren't fireant and mefeedia opt-in ? also, i don't think they *feature* sites from people who wish otherwise On Dec 14, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Heath wrote: I don't see what you are doing as any different than Fireant, or MeFeedia, etc. You are providing a way to view video on the web, vlogs, etc.at least you are providing link backs and other things, there are plenty of sites around that just take your feed and you would never know it. Ran across a few of those, now THAT bothers me, just taking, but I don't see what you are doing as wrong. IMO you have been honest and above board, so no worries on my end.. Heath http://batmangeek7.blogspot.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com, [chrisbrogan.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Markus Sandy http://feeds.feedburner.com/havemoneywillvlog http://feeds.feedburner.com/apperceptions http://feeds.feedburner.com/digitaldojo http://feeds.feedburner.com/spinflow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] -- Sull
