Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 08:38 PM 8/10/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Baloney.  The courts have ruled that a Natural Born US citizen is 
one where both parents are US Citizens and born in US soil.  And 
here you are elevating yourself to a position higher than the 
courts.  You can not throw away court decisions you don't 
like.  That is anarchy.


Jojo, a little lesson in logic.

The proposition that A is B does not negate that C may also be B.

Someone with both parents who are U.S. Citizens are natural born 
U.S. citizens. However, this does not tell us what the situation is 
with the other cases. You are claiming that the courts have ruled 
only with respect to the first case. You have not pointed to any case 
ruling on the relevant other cases.


Specifically, here, the most relevant question is whether or not a 
person born in the United States or U.S. territories, of a U.S. 
citizen parent and a non-citizen parent, which is the case with 
Obama, is a natural born citizen. Any case on that, Jojo? My 
understanding is that there have been cases, and they have not gone 
as you have claimed, certainly not after the 14th amendment was passed.


to quote it:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to 
the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of 
the State wherein they reside.


This covers natural born with the first category. Naturalized is 
the excluded category. Naturalized citizens cannot become the 
President. People born in the United States (i.e., subject to U.S. 
jurisdiction at birth) are citizens by right of birth, and natural 
born citizen has never meant, since that amendment, anything but that.


You are confidently asserting that there are contrary cases, the 
courts have ruled. Okay, what cases? Put up, or, more likely, given 
how you are trending, shut up.


You know, I don't even read you verbose essays anymore.  I grow 
tired of the lies, the misinformed opinions, and the blatant 
propaganda masquerading as informed opinion.  You have succeeded in 
doing one thing.  You have succeeded in wearing me down with your 
useless words.


So maybe the time has not been entirely wasted.

So, I'll let you have the last word.  Anyone who listens to you 
deserve to have the same cranial enema that you apparently are in 
serious need of.


Someone who believes what you write is in even more serious trouble

Make us all happy, perhaps your only good deed here. Go away.

I will say that I've learned a lot in the last couple of days. I 
really had no idea how crazy the birthers were. Jojo's arguments 
about the odds against random mutations driving speciation were at 
least, old arguments, not totally wing-nut, just erroneous. But he 
went totally off the deep end, not only about the birth certificate 
issue, but with the constant use of contemptuous names, like bambi. 
All the while pretending to be a Christian. I don't believe it. I 
work closely with real Christians, they are not responsible for Jojo 
any more than I'm responsible for Obama bin Laden. 

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Hate speech is when people imply birthers are clueless.
Hate speech is when people call those who believe in Intelligent Design 
uninformed.
Hate speech is when people make fun of what people believe.

Calling bambi a criminal is not hate speech, since it is the truth.
Presenting Evidence for Intelligent Design is not hate speech.
Asking for evidence from bambi regarding his vault Birth Certificate is not 
hate speech.
Calling Islam a hateful religion is NOT hate speech as it is the truth.

You may call anything hate speech but that does not make it true.

But I am tired of this.  You may have the last word.  I will not be posting 
this forum anymore.  You may celebrate.  You win.  Go ahead and destroy this 
fine forum with your off-topic posts just to gab with friends.

Jojo


  - Original Message - 
  From: Eric Walker 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 1:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:


If you want attacks to stop, then call for moderation in this forum from 
the people who are most guilty.  Off-topic posts are destroying this forum; and 
believe me, I am the last person who wants that to happen.


  The thread on Barack Obama has bordered on hate speech.  You're trying to 
change this forum into something else in order to make a personal point.  You 
should stop.


  Eric

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Eric Walker]

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:11 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

**
 But I am tired of this.  You may have the last word.  I will not
 be posting this forum anymore.  You may celebrate.  You win.  Go ahead and
 destroy this fine forum with your off-topic posts just to gab with
 friends.


Jojo, the fact that you've succeeded in getting this far is an indication
that people like you.  But you need to be protected from yourself.  Before
you started trying to make this point your occasional posts were
interesting.  Stop being a troll and everything will be good.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 08:31 PM 8/10/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
He imprisoned a decorated American Colonel soldier because he did 
not want to reveal his Vault BC.


Okay, here is what Jojo is talking about:

http://www.stripes.com/news/birther-sentenced-to-six-months-in-prison-kicked-out-of-army-1.128924

This is truly a sad case, but Obama did not imprison the fellow. A 
military court did, and the colonel acknowledged that what he did was wrong.


Jojo, how about you send this guy the money he lost by standing for 
what you believe? It was people like you who egged him on.


http://www.terrylakinactionfund.com/

There you go, Jojo. Try to make up, at least a bit, for the damage you did.

I did find some agreement with Joj's position. In Pravda:

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/15-06-2012/121397-barack_obama_prison-0/

On the other hand, in the matter of legal opinion, the view that Jojo 
described as just my opinion seems to have been the opinion of every 
court which has considered the issue, and of academics and lawyers, 
with hardly any exception.


See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause

I know that Wikipedia articles might not be complete, but ...

It's looking like Jojo has simply been lying.

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy -I will not..

[David L Babcock]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Ol' Bab


On 8/11/2012 2:11 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote:
But I am tired of this.  You may have the last word.  I will not 
be posting this forum anymore.  You may celebrate.  You win.  Go ahead 
and destroy this fine forum with your off-topic posts just to gab 
with friends.

Jojo

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy -I will not..

[Chemical Engineer]

JoJo,

I think you add something to this forum for your technical ability.  I have
no comment on the rest.

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 11:16 AM, David L Babcock ol...@rochester.rr.comwrote:

  Thank you, thank you, thank you.

 Ol' Bab


 On 8/11/2012 2:11 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote:


 But I am tired of this.  You may have the last word.  I will not
 be posting this forum anymore.  You may celebrate.  You win.  Go ahead and
 destroy this fine forum with your off-topic posts just to gab with
 friends.

 Jojo

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[LORENHEYER]

If a large percentage of Politicians, Banker, Financier, etc., etc., either 
already has engaged in corrption and/or have a 10% chance they *would*,,, 
then Obama is 110% absolutely the most power/money-hungry bribing scheming 
corrupt Illegal illegitimateindividual (of the heard mentality kind) to 
ever serve as President and/or Comandeer  Thief  of this once proud, but 
truly gullible naive Country.   
 
  Brainwash'em and/or say 
things they desperately want to hear, then take everything they own and/or 
eliminate them completely is the prime directive of most wannabe Ruling 
Dictators Now, with your help, we can Fundamentally destroy, err, uhh, I 
mean 
Transform America! .  Vote for me, or else!!!, er, uhh, I mean, or else you'll 
just end up with the same old politicians that only continue to get 
wealthier, while all you poor suckers get poorer.Now, we can share the 
wealth, 
and make me the Richest Ruler Ever!!!,,, err, uhh, I mean make this Country 
More Prosperous Than Ever!   Thank you!!!  

It's about 
time, because we've all worked so hard over the years to get to this point, and 
there ain't no going back now,,, well, at least not until after the total 
collapse of civilization. 

 There are many questions about Obama's past. 
/HTML

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 08:40 PM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:

Weapons-grade Balonium

Everyone with half a brain cell knows that what 
he released was faked.  But I guess I can 
forgive you because you don't have half a brain cell.


Attempting to use my quarter-cell, I wasted an 
entire day researching the birther claims. Let's 
say that Jojo's position appears to be that 
anyone who agrees with the strong majority of 
experts and commentators is stupid.


The evidence out there had me going for a short 
time. I found some stuff by Miss Tickle that 
seemed to show clear evidence of image 
alteration. I did suspect it, but, hey, it looked 
bad! So I checked it out further. Yes. I could 
see in the originals presented by Miss Tickle 
that the image was a jpeg and had been through 
lossy compression. I didn't know the specifics of 
this to be sure about the effect, but I did 
somewhat suspect that sections of the image, say 
the check boxes, were identical to other 
sections, at the pixel level, as being caused by 
the compression algorithm. I.e., one image of a 
box was repeated as being considered by the 
algorithm, as sufficiently identical to allow the 
transmission of a single image that is repeated.


So the real story: the images released were 
compressed. Like, that was obvious from a quick 
glance. If you look at the text on the LFBC, 
you'll see a halo around the text. That's an 
artifact of compression. If the image were not 
compressed, those images would be huge. 
Compressing images is routine in web 
presentations. I don't know if an uncompressed 
scan is available. Ideally, it should be. Lossy 
compression was used, because it is more 
effective. It's also possible that the images 
were enhanced to improve legibility.


But the real point is entirely missed. Legally, 
it's not the image that counts, it is the 
certification of the public official that the 
document is a true copy. If someone was taking 
such a certified document and altering it, 
presenting it publically, to obtain an advantage, 
that would probably be a felony, and one very easily established.


To obtain a legal right, one would have to 
present the original signed and sealed document. 
I've been through this. Copies are completely 
inadequate, unless themselves certified under 
oath (and thus penalty of perjury). You can't get 
a passport, for example, by presenting an 
uncertified copy of a birth certificate. You need 
a certified copy, with the state seal and an original official signature.


I saw all kinds of crazy reasons given why the 
LFBC must be a forgery. For example, there is 
another LFBC out there for the same hospital, a 
birth the next day or so. It's a standard 
old-time copy, the kind I've gotten many times 
when I've requested a copy of my birth 
certificate (from 1944, Los Angeles). It's a 
negative, there was a common method of making 
cheap copies before xerography, 
quasi-photographic. The recent copy provided by 
the state to Obama for release is xerographic, 
probably, or perhaps scanned and printed, on the 
green security paper. Again, I think I've seen copies like that.


In addition, there is an issue of the serial 
numbers. There seems to be an assumption that 
births at the same hospital will necessarily be 
serialized in order of birth. Nope. It depends on 
exact procedures. I don't know the exact 
procedure, and even if I did, there would be no 
guarantee that this procedure was actually 
followed in 1961 in this particular case. Clerks 
do all kinds of irregular things, and all they 
really care about with the serial numbers is that 
no two birth certificates have the same number. 
Sequence is legally meaningless, so no major 
effort is put into it. Once you realize that the 
number on the certificate is not the sequence of 
birth, that the numbers are state-assigned and 
that births are coming in from many hospitals and 
other sources (not all babies are born in 
hospitals) and that registration of births can be 
substantially delayed, both within and without 
the law, the numbers really don't mean anything.


The birthers are able to assert a huge pile of 
signs that the birth certificate(s) are bogus. 
These assertions are contradictory to each other. 
For example, the name of the hospital is claimed 
to be an anachronism, in one set of birther 
claims, while others show the twin births at the 
same hospital and allege the problem with serial 
number sequence, and still others claim that the 
twin birth certificates are themselves forgeries, 
because the mother was allegedly a communist, or something like that.


Sane conservatives have long ago abandoned the 
birther myth. We are, here, not dealing with a 
sane conservative. We are dealing with a fanatic.


You say that the Vault BC can not be obtained 
easily.  You say they do not have procedures for 
getting the real Long Form Vault BC.  You say this are not publicly accessible.


That's been noted by the official in charge. 
However, there are also 

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 08:42 PM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:

Baloney.  This is your opinion proffered as law.

Nothing more than a bunch of BS.  A Natural Born US citizen is one 
with both US citizen parents and born on US soil.  Period.  Stop the lies.


That opinion was rejected more than a hundred years ago.

There are some interesting legal issues here, but they are utterly of 
no practical consequence. The position that both parents must be US 
citizens is utterly without foundation, it's made up.


The case of a U.S. Citizen mother and a non-citizen father, with the 
child born outside the U.S., is a marginal one and it's not clear how 
a court would decide. Does the law in effect in 1961 apply? If later 
law essentially defines natural born differently -- as it does --, 
does this reach back and define as natural born for purposes of the 
constitutional requirement, according to the current definition?


Some statements I've seen of the current law imply that it is not 
retroactive, so if this is true, then Obama would not be a natural 
born citizen, since his mother was three months short of her 19th 
birthday, which is the age required under the old law for the birth 
to be automatic citizenship.


Jojo seems to be requiring that the constitutional provision have 
some kind of original intepretation, but it's entirely unclear what 
that was. The original clause, from what I've seen, was inserted at 
the last minute and without explanation.


What I've been asserting is what a U.S. court would be likely to 
decide, based on precedent. Jojo seems to belong to a 
fundamentalist school of law, that presumes that there is some 
constitutional law that exists separately from how the courts 
interpret it. And anyone who sides with the court's actual 
interpretation, as confirmed over, say, more than a century, is a liar.


It's fanaticism, pure and simple.

The marginal case is irrelevant, because Obama will be considered by 
any court, unless someone pulls a rabbit out of a hat, as being born 
in the U.S., specifically in Hawaii, in 1961. It's established by the 
required documentation, and anyone who thinks that the courts will 
disregard the documentation, absent a clear showing of fraud, is 
seriously deluded.


The U.S. Supreme Court has, to my chagrin, made decisions that were 
motivated by results rather than the facts and law and precedent in a 
case, but a decision removing a sitting President based on what has 
been alleged is far, far worse than anything I've ever seen them do. 
Even if it were actually shown that Obama were born in Kenya, for 
example, the Court would be highly likely to refuse the case, citing 
res judicata, that the matter was decided by Congress in certifying 
the election results. Congress has the right -- and responsibility -- 
to consider eligibility.


Congress could also impeach, if there was Presidential misbehavior 
involved, and forging documents would probably be considered 
misbehavior. That is a reason why the forgery is exrremely unlikely. 
It's difficult to imagine anything that might be on the document that 
would be worth risking his presidency over. People have claimed that 
the father might be different, and that he couldn't stand the heat of 
that. Highly unlikely, folks, even if it were true.


(On the other hand, I'd have thought that a sitting President was 
constitutionally protected from prosecution, and the Court, not so 
long ago, allowed a sitting president to be thoroughly harassed over 
matters that were entirely distracting from the business of the Presidency.)


Notice how the birther claims are essentially all over the map. 
What's consistent about them is that there is something wrong.


There usually is, if you look hard enough. That is, you can always 
find something that *looks wrong.* It just takes persistence. Look at 
what I found about the long form. All kinds of ridiculous claims, 
presented as if they established some kind of strong suspicion of 
wrong. And nothing more there than the kinds of oddities that commonly occur.

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

I grow tired of reading your verbose essays of YOUR opinion as if you're 
an expert.  Are you a Software Architect that knows how lousy compression 
works.  Do you know the lousy algortihm intimately enough to say what the 
artifacts are?  I have an MS in Computer Science and I don't even 
intimately know the algorithm for lousy jpg compression; but I can tell your 
expert opinion below consists of nothing more than Highly Enriched Weapons 
Grade Balonium.   Over a dozen document experts, software experts and other 
experts have said the BC presented to us was fake; and here you are thinking 
you are smarter than everybody.  Typical Arrogance.


BUT, just answer why Bambi has not allowed his Vault BC to be seen.  He can 
end this Birther movement and nip it at the roots if he did so.  Why hasn't 
he done so?  When somebody is going to great lengths that Bambi is going to, 
somebody is hiding something.  Something that is criminal.  For me, it's no 
longer about the BC, it about obstruction of Justice.  I remember one former 
president having to resign due to an offense much more minor than what Bambi 
is doing now.  He imprisoned a decorated American Colonel soldier because he 
did not want to reveal his Vault BC.  Such actions are treasonous.  And if 
you think that is OK, then you are treasonous.  You are working for the 
destruction of America and change it to your way of life.  Maybe, both your 
actions shouldn't surprise me at all as I know both of your backgrounds.




Jojo





- Original Message - 
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy



At 08:40 PM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:

Weapons-grade Balonium

Everyone with half a brain cell knows that what he released was faked.  But 
I guess I can forgive you because you don't have half a brain cell.


Attempting to use my quarter-cell, I wasted an
entire day researching the birther claims. Let's
say that Jojo's position appears to be that
anyone who agrees with the strong majority of
experts and commentators is stupid.

The evidence out there had me going for a short
time. I found some stuff by Miss Tickle that
seemed to show clear evidence of image
alteration. I did suspect it, but, hey, it looked
bad! So I checked it out further. Yes. I could
see in the originals presented by Miss Tickle
that the image was a jpeg and had been through
lossy compression. I didn't know the specifics of
this to be sure about the effect, but I did
somewhat suspect that sections of the image, say
the check boxes, were identical to other
sections, at the pixel level, as being caused by
the compression algorithm. I.e., one image of a
box was repeated as being considered by the
algorithm, as sufficiently identical to allow the
transmission of a single image that is repeated.

So the real story: the images released were
compressed. Like, that was obvious from a quick
glance. If you look at the text on the LFBC,
you'll see a halo around the text. That's an
artifact of compression. If the image were not
compressed, those images would be huge.
Compressing images is routine in web
presentations. I don't know if an uncompressed
scan is available. Ideally, it should be. Lossy
compression was used, because it is more
effective. It's also possible that the images
were enhanced to improve legibility.

But the real point is entirely missed. Legally,
it's not the image that counts, it is the
certification of the public official that the
document is a true copy. If someone was taking
such a certified document and altering it,
presenting it publically, to obtain an advantage,
that would probably be a felony, and one very easily established.

To obtain a legal right, one would have to
present the original signed and sealed document.
I've been through this. Copies are completely
inadequate, unless themselves certified under
oath (and thus penalty of perjury). You can't get
a passport, for example, by presenting an
uncertified copy of a birth certificate. You need
a certified copy, with the state seal and an original official signature.

I saw all kinds of crazy reasons given why the
LFBC must be a forgery. For example, there is
another LFBC out there for the same hospital, a
birth the next day or so. It's a standard
old-time copy, the kind I've gotten many times
when I've requested a copy of my birth
certificate (from 1944, Los Angeles). It's a
negative, there was a common method of making
cheap copies before xerography,
quasi-photographic. The recent copy provided by
the state to Obama for release is xerographic,
probably, or perhaps scanned and printed, on the
green security paper. Again, I think I've seen copies like that.

In addition, there is an issue of the serial
numbers. There seems to be an assumption that
births at the same hospital will necessarily be
serialized in order of birth. Nope

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Baloney.  The courts have ruled that a Natural Born US citizen is one where 
both parents are US Citizens and born in US soil.  And here you are 
elevating yourself to a position higher than the courts.  You can not throw 
away court decisions you don't like.  That is anarchy.


You know, I don't even read you verbose essays anymore.  I grow tired of the 
lies, the misinformed opinions, and the blatant propaganda masquerading as 
informed opinion.  You have succeeded in doing one thing.  You have 
succeeded in wearing me down with your useless words.


So, I'll let you have the last word.  Anyone who listens to you deserve to 
have the same cranial enema that you apparently are in serious need of.



Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy




At 08:42 PM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:

Baloney.  This is your opinion proffered as law.

Nothing more than a bunch of BS.  A Natural Born US citizen is one with 
both US citizen parents and born on US soil.  Period.  Stop the lies.


That opinion was rejected more than a hundred years ago.

There are some interesting legal issues here, but they are utterly of no 
practical consequence. The position that both parents must be US 
citizens is utterly without foundation, it's made up.


The case of a U.S. Citizen mother and a non-citizen father, with the child 
born outside the U.S., is a marginal one and it's not clear how a court 
would decide. Does the law in effect in 1961 apply? If later law 
essentially defines natural born differently -- as it does --, does this 
reach back and define as natural born for purposes of the constitutional 
requirement, according to the current definition?


Some statements I've seen of the current law imply that it is not 
retroactive, so if this is true, then Obama would not be a natural born 
citizen, since his mother was three months short of her 19th birthday, 
which is the age required under the old law for the birth to be automatic 
citizenship.


Jojo seems to be requiring that the constitutional provision have some 
kind of original intepretation, but it's entirely unclear what that was. 
The original clause, from what I've seen, was inserted at the last minute 
and without explanation.


What I've been asserting is what a U.S. court would be likely to decide, 
based on precedent. Jojo seems to belong to a fundamentalist school of 
law, that presumes that there is some constitutional law that exists 
separately from how the courts interpret it. And anyone who sides with the 
court's actual interpretation, as confirmed over, say, more than a 
century, is a liar.


It's fanaticism, pure and simple.

The marginal case is irrelevant, because Obama will be considered by any 
court, unless someone pulls a rabbit out of a hat, as being born in the 
U.S., specifically in Hawaii, in 1961. It's established by the required 
documentation, and anyone who thinks that the courts will disregard the 
documentation, absent a clear showing of fraud, is seriously deluded.


The U.S. Supreme Court has, to my chagrin, made decisions that were 
motivated by results rather than the facts and law and precedent in a 
case, but a decision removing a sitting President based on what has been 
alleged is far, far worse than anything I've ever seen them do. Even if it 
were actually shown that Obama were born in Kenya, for example, the Court 
would be highly likely to refuse the case, citing res judicata, that the 
matter was decided by Congress in certifying the election results. 
Congress has the right -- and responsibility -- 
to consider eligibility.


Congress could also impeach, if there was Presidential misbehavior 
involved, and forging documents would probably be considered misbehavior. 
That is a reason why the forgery is exrremely unlikely. It's difficult to 
imagine anything that might be on the document that would be worth risking 
his presidency over. People have claimed that the father might be 
different, and that he couldn't stand the heat of that. Highly unlikely, 
folks, even if it were true.


(On the other hand, I'd have thought that a sitting President was 
constitutionally protected from prosecution, and the Court, not so long 
ago, allowed a sitting president to be thoroughly harassed over matters 
that were entirely distracting from the business of the Presidency.)


Notice how the birther claims are essentially all over the map. What's 
consistent about them is that there is something wrong.


There usually is, if you look hard enough. That is, you can always find 
something that *looks wrong.* It just takes persistence. Look at what I 
found about the long form. All kinds of ridiculous claims, presented as if 
they established some kind of strong suspicion of wrong. And nothing 
more there than the kinds of oddities

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 08:31 PM 8/10/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
I grow tired of reading your verbose essays of YOUR opinion as if 
you're an expert.  Are you a Software Architect that knows how lousy 
compression works.


Well, I've merely worked with compression algorithms for, what, about 
thirty years. No, I'm not an expert. I'm just someone not snowed by 
idiots like you. Not that anyone here is being snowed by you.


Do you know the lousy algortihm intimately enough to say what the 
artifacts are?


Yes. They are obvious to anyone who has worked with compressed image files.

  I have an MS in Computer Science and I don't even intimately know 
the algorithm for lousy jpg compression;


There are many different algorithms, but the basic concept involves 
recognizing repeated patterns. With a non-lossy algorithm, you only 
allow compression through exact repeats. A zipfile is that. But image 
files, especially JPEGS, can be highly lossy.


You have an MS in Computer Science and don't know this stuff? Oh, 
intimately. I don't know it intimately, but I know enough to 
recognize baloney, and many of the birther claims about the PDF files 
are just that.


but I can tell your expert opinion below consists of nothing more 
than Highly Enriched Weapons Grade Balonium.


Weapons grade. Thanks.

   Over a dozen document experts, software experts and other 
experts have said the BC presented to us was fake; and here you are 
thinking you are smarter than everybody.  Typical Arrogance.


Biased sample, Jojo. You are only selecting the experts you agree 
with. There are *many* experts who have opined the opposite of your 
position. Bottom line, Jojo. Prove it. It's all irrelevant if nobody 
actually takes this to court. Go ahead, put your money together and 
waste it on this. I'll be happy, because that's just so much less 
money to be spent on real mischief.


I'm not smarter than everybody. As I mentioned, one of the 
experts had me going for a bit. I did suspect something was off, 
but wasn't sure. And then what I found, searching for commentary on 
that expert jogged my memory. Yes.


It's obvious. Lossy compression works by recognizing *approximate* 
patterns and replacing them with a single version, which is then 
repeated. I pointed to a higher-resolution copy that hasn't been 
compressed in that way. It was still available as JPEG and you can 
see some JPEG artifacts in the colors, in particular, but it's much 
better and the supposed proofs of alteration aren't there.


The remaining interesting allegation is the showing of various 
versions of letters. To me, the letters look as the same font, and 
I don't see being done what one would sensibly and scientifically do: 
examine the variation in type patterns of many documents; what has 
been shown is easily artifact of two things: various levels of impact 
from the keys, ribbon differences, incomplete ink transfer, and 
digitisation variations. What is done is not scientific, it's on the 
level of gee, this looks weird. What is weird? How much variation 
is *normal*? I could do that work, but, frankly, I consider that the 
whole topic is a waste of time. I've already wasted far too much time 
on this. I did look, at everything you pointed to. You struck out, 
Jojo. You had your chance.



BUT, just answer why Bambi has not allowed his Vault BC to be seen.


It's been seen. The Vault BC, by the way, is legally unnecessary. 
The critical information is on the short form that was released, and 
if Obama has ever applied for a passport -- and he has -- he had to 
present one of those. Not some copy, a state-certified original.



  He can end this Birther movement and nip it at the roots if he did so.


It's been demonstrated, quite well, that birthers like you will never 
give up. The release of the long form had long been demanded on the 
same basis. Note: if the long form document is a forgery, what's 
important about it. The excuse for the whole flap has been the 
question of eligibility, and the short form has all that is needed to 
know about that. The basis now being asserted for a problem is that 
supposedly Obama had something to hide, something so embarrassing 
that he'd risk impeachment to hide it. It's all fishing, and has gone 
way beyond merely silly. It's looney-tune wacko.


  Why hasn't he done so?  When somebody is going to great lengths 
that Bambi is going to, somebody is hiding something.  Something 
that is criminal.  For me, it's no longer about the BC, it about 
obstruction of Justice.  I remember one former president having to 
resign due to an offense much more minor than what Bambi is doing 
now.  He imprisoned a decorated American Colonel soldier because he 
did not want to reveal his Vault BC.  Such actions are 
treasonous.  And if you think that is OK, then you are 
treasonous.  You are working for the destruction of America and 
change it to your way of life.  Maybe, both your actions shouldn't 
surprise me at all as I know both of your backgrounds.

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

**
 If you want attacks to stop, then call for moderation in this forum from
 the people who are most guilty.  Off-topic posts are destroying this forum;
 and believe me, I am the last person who wants that to happen.


The thread on Barack Obama has bordered on hate speech.  You're trying to
change this forum into something else in order to make a personal point.
 You should stop.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

 is a natural-born citizen, unless 
they are not a citizen at all. Jaro Jaro confuses 
legal recognition with the underlying fact, as if 
U.S. citizen were a natural fact instead of a 
legal intepretation. A child of one US citizen 
*has the right of citizenship* provided that the 
situation meets certain requirements, see 
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_nationality_lawoldid=505832579#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen


Jojo Jaro fails to convince with his confident 
pronouncements of his opinions as fact.


Now, I'm an American by birth and affiliation, 
and, I must say, I'm offended by the reference to 
the President of the United States as Bambi. It 
makes it clear that this isn't about fact and 
law, it's about hatred and contempt. Pretty rich for a Christian.


At 07:29 PM 8/8/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
That is incorrect Ron.  A child of one US 
citizen does not automatically become a US 
citizen.  He has to choose which 
parent's  citizenship he wants when he reaches 
21.  Besides, Stanley Ann Dunham was too young 
to have conferred US citizenship to Bambi when 
he was born.  And a Dual Citizen is classified 
automatically as NOT a Natural-Born US Citizen.


A child born out of 2 US citizens but born out 
of US soil, can be a US citizen but not a Natural-Born US Citizen


A child born in US soil, but to non-US citizens, 
may become a US citizen but not a Natural-Born US Citizen.


A child born in US soil, but to only 1 US 
citizen parent, must choose which citizenship he 
wants when he reaches 21.  He may choose both 
and become a Dual Citizen, but he is certainly NOT a Natural-Born US citizen.


But mere US citizenship does not qualify one to 
be president.  He has to be Natural-Born US 
citizen.  Which means a child of 2 US citizens and born on US soil.


One theory says that a Natural Born US Citizen 
is one wherein he does not have to take any 
special action to get his US citizenship.  If 
Bambi has to choose US Citizenship, then he is 
automatically not a Natural-Born US 
citizen.  And this would be the case with Bambi, 
because he was an Indonesian Citizen when he was 
a child.  But since, he was not yet 21 at that 
time, he did not have to make a specific 
choice.  When he reached 21, he should have made 
that choice.  If he did not, then he is still an 
Illegal Alien in this country.  But none of this 
can be resolved because criminal-in-chief has a 
gag order on all agencies and private entities 
to keep his records secret.  Question is, WHY?




Jojo



- Original Message - From: Ron Wormus prot...@frii.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 2:28 AM
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media 
makes scientists think we are crazy



As far as I know a child born to a US citizen is automatically also a
citizen regardless of location of birth.  I have grand daughters born in
Switzerland who have dual citizenship.
Ron

--On Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:31 PM -0700 MarkI-ZeroPoint
zeropo...@charter.net wrote:




Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about…





His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US
citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that
they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.



Agreed.   His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here),
so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning  to the USA
*permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be
a U.S. Citizen.  If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck
would…





I'm sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being
POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up
the in case he wanted to become President someday argument…

 there is reason enough by just coming here.




If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child
to be a US citizen?



I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments
and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far…  perhaps
after the next election we'll find out?   Or not…





-Mark






From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we
are crazy



Straw Man argument.



First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all
births in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth to
Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii.
Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny
though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's
parents.



Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly
conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be
president.  That's a straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and
knew the benefits of US citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[LORENHEYER]

It's long overdue that someone with a few brain cells  a spine, and is 
fully supported  by *individualism* and/or *Real* people who believe in *not* 
living elbow to elbow like pack rats,,, make an real earnest effort to 
*revise* policies  and/or * Laws* regarding the influx of people that (don't) 
think the only way to a successful future is to breed in overwhelming numbers.  
 

   Plus, the only 
way we can protect what we have from being completely destroyed and/or 
devoured will require *us* of whom tend to legally rightfully occupy a Country, 
to 
be vigilent in keeping a relatively sharp eye out *before* the enmassing 
hoard is successful.  If we don't, then we can soon look forward to an 
inevitable collapse of all that we now take for granted 


I don't think most of you want to find out 
first-hand what it's like to be eaten alive... but actually, now that I 
think about it, I've soemtimes wondered what different people thruout the world 
might taste like, if say, one might taste like chicken and maybe another 
like beef or pork?.  Its just a thought, but maybe we need to start preparing 
for a change in our diets,,, and at the same time, saving the animals. I mean 
afterall, they've been  treated very poorly, like *things* instead of 
living creatures in many of the populated areas of various so-called Countries. 
  

 So, just a reminder... you are 
measured by how you tr(eat) your animals, otherwise you may just be one 
yourself.   

 I thought that since his mother was an American citizen then he 
automatically was.  Is this not the way it pans out?  Does the location of 
birth 
outside of the USA make one a non citizen?
 
 Dave 
/HTML

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Despite your long long long essay; as usual, you failed to understand the 
issue correctly.  The opinion you proffered below appeared to me to be from 
Wikipedia, and so I checked, and low and behold, you simply regurgitated the 
fine fine fine scholarship of wikipedia.  No wonder you're confused.


First, Congress is not tasked to intrepret the Constitution.  It is not in 
their power to do so, and not their duty and obligation to do so.  When 
Congress does make a pronouncement regarding any matter of interpretation of 
law, their pronouncement is simply an opinion and does not carry the weight 
as precedent.  Unlike with the Judicial branch, whose decisions become 
precedent and law.  We need to go to the Courts to determine the proper 
meaning and interpretation of the law.  You can bitch all you want and show 
all you want that Congress has made that determination and your opinion 
means squat.


In Shanks v. Dupont, Minor vs. Happersett, United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 
just to name a few cases; the Courts (including the Supreme Court) ruled 
that a Natural Born US Citizen is one born out of 2 US citizen parents and 
born in the land of their Parent's citizenship; that is, US soil.  If one 
parent were a non-citizen, it is clear that the child has to take action at 
his 21st birthday to gain US Citizenship.  His citizenship status before 
turning 21 is in Limbo.  Hence, he is not considered to be a Natural Born 
US Citizen.   You can obfuscate all you want; it is clear bambi is a 
usurper of Power that he is not qualified to assume.


As for your other nonsensical opinions, it is clear that actions were taken 
to contest bambi's status even before the elections.  Justice was denied and 
bambi assumed power.  Even now, all court cases are denied on mere 
technicality.  If peaceful resolution is not allowed by the Shadow 
Government Kabbal, a 2nd American Revolution is needed to throw off this 
corrupt and oppressive kabbal.  Mark my words, Americans are a peace loving 
people, but they will not put up with this trampling of the Constitution for 
long.  70% of Americans believe that Bambi should come clean and present his 
real Vault Birth Certificate.  It puzzles me why he is unwilling to do so. 
And all your BS arguments will not overcome this fact.


Jojo

PS. And by the way, Snoopes and Factcheck are not the entities tasked to 
authenticate official documents.   LOL 


And I did not even know bambi was a muslim until after the election.  I 
opposed him because he is unqualified. Period.  Any pathetic attempt on your 
part to make this about race or religion is frankly idiotic.







- Original Message - 
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy



The current Wikipedia article, which has been
stable for at least a few weeks, seems quite good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Natural-born-citizen_clauseoldid=503057261

Jojo is stating his personal or collective
opinion as if it were established fact.

From the article, from the Congressional Research Service:

The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term 
natural born citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. 
citizenship by birth or at birth, either by being born in the United 
States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by 
being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other 
situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship at birth. Such 
term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by 
birth or at birth, and who was thus born an alien required to go through 
the legal process of naturalization to become a U.S. citizen.[1]


There is no contrary legal authority of any weight.

Attempting to challenge the Presidency through
this means is almost certainly doomed. To
accomplish it with Obama, a whole series of hurdles must be cleared.

1. Establish that the Hawaii Birth Certificate is
fraudulent. A series of speculative how comes
won't cut it. Mere mystery won't cut it. That
birth certificate establishes the legal
situation, until and unless it is *proven* to be
fraudulent. Tough road to hoe. But people who
generate lots of hot air can sometimes convince
others, especially those looking for a reason to
dump Obama, who makes some people uncomfortable.
Maybe it's the cologne he uses. Nah, they haven't
gotten that close to him (fortunately). Must be
something about the way he looks.

Or it's that he's a SOCIALIST COMMUNIST PINKO
MUSLIM. Yeah, Muslim. That's it. Wants to force
decent American women to wear those tents, even
if it's hot. He just pretended to have Bin Laden
taken out, Bin Laden has been taken to a Safe
Place. Probably Area 51. Yeah, that's it. Desert.
Bin Laden would love it there.

2. Show, in a binding legal process, that Obama

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Bambi's mother was a US citizen, although by the laws during that time, she 
was too young to confer US citizenship to bambi.  But even if she could, 
that would only make Bambi a mere US citizen; not a Natural Born US Citizen.


Many people are unaware of this salient requirement.  To them a US citizen 
is qualified automatically to be POTUS.  That is not what the Constitution 
says:  In order for one to be qualifed, one needs to be a Natural Born US 
Citizen.


Natural Born US Citizenship has a specific technical definition under our 
laws.  You just can't make up your own rules and declare bambi to be Natural 
Born US citizen based on your opinion.


The Shadow Government Kabbal is counting on the fact that Americans are 
either dumb or apathetic.  They just don't know or they just don't care. 
Well, they just underestimated Americans, cause 70% are demanding that bambi 
comes clean and present his real Vault Birth Certificate.



Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: lorenhe...@aol.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy






 I thought that since his mother was an American citizen then he
automatically was.  Is this not the way it pans out?  Does the location of 
birth

outside of the USA make one a non citizen?

Dave 
/HTML

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[ecat builder]

There are many questions about Obama's past.

It is an indisputable fact that the Long Form Birth Certificate posted on
the whitehouse.gov web site manipulated in photoshop. The moron who created
the PDF forgot to flatten all of the layers, so that anyone could go in an
move important parts of the document around, including the registrar's
stamp. What parts of the document are accurate, and why was it altered at
all? The state of HI uses a number of weasel words to say he was born here
without backing it up with an actual document.

A number of explanations are possible-- when Obama was adopted by his
Indonesian father, the birth certificate may have been modified or altered,
as is often the case with adoptions. The actual BC may have been lost or
destroyed.

I personally doubt Obama was born in Kenya, but Obama is hiding something,
or playing a strange game with millions of taxpayer and campaign dollars.
There have been dozens of lawsuits claiming he may be ineligible that could
be resolved (perhaps) with the presentation of a birth certificate. All
fail due to lack of standing but still require hundreds of hours of court
work.

A US military doctor had questions and tried to assure himself that Obama
was constitutionally eligible to hold office and ended up in Leavenworth...
Poor judgement on his part, but again, easily solved had Obama not played
hide-and-seek with his records.

Of course, Jojo makes a good point that having dual citizenship at birth
would make someone ineligible as Natural Born Citizen, which might
explain O's reluctance to enter evidence into a court. The constitution was
written so that the president could not be a commander from an invading
country or have divided loyalties.

As this author points out, the biggest question is Obama's story of
attending Occidental where he was a self-admitted pot-smoking bad student..
how did he get in? Why does nobody remember him? Who paid for his college?
Was he enrolled as a foreigner? What were his grades?
http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-college-classmate-the-obama-scandal-is-at-columbia/

Jed is not the only one who thinks that anyone who doesn't fawn over Obama
is a racist. Let me remind everyone about how most conservatives also
didn't like Carter, Clinton, and many were not fond of GW. We are equal
opportunity bashers of inept leadership and are quick to eat our own. But
Obama does have a long and sordid past with communists (Bill Ayres, Frank
Marshal Davis) and was ranked the most liberal Senator. He is aligned with
the Democratic Socialists of America and their offshoot, the New Party.

This video is interesting, even if only some of the facts presented are
true.. (The title is bogus, the tone silly, and it was created by an
individual, rather than the media, who failed to vet him...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-HqHSkYG-Y

And a related one about the influential father figures in Obama's life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOmzTLdr_m4

According to the odds makers, Obama will win the election easily. According
to most polls, Obama is trailing slightly in the swing states.

Trying to determine truth from fiction in Obama's narrative should be the
job of the press and anyone who is interested in presidential history. But
when valid concerns and uncomfortable facts are raised, the press is the
first to scream dog whistle racism..

May we live in interesting times...

- Brad

RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 01:28 PM 8/8/2012, Ron Wormus wrote:
As far as I know a child born to a US citizen is automatically also 
a citizen regardless of location of birth.  I have grand daughters 
born in Switzerland who have dual citizenship.


As with anything, it depends on what you mean by citizen. Further, 
it is not clear that the Constitutional Rule is subject to 
modification by statute, but it's also obvious that the definition of 
U.S. has shifted because of later events. The rules for *being 
recognized* as a U.S. citizen by virtue of birth are a bit 
complicated, but they are only designed to rule out situations where 
it's not clear what would be equitable.


I.e., a single citizen parent, with a non-citizen other parent, can 
create a marginal situation, and the rules are designed to require a 
showing that the single parent was not only a U.S. citizen, but had a 
real relationship with the U.S., by living here a certain minimum 
time, after 14 years of age. The number of years required changed. 
Presently, it is five years of residence in the U.S. by the 
citizen-parent before the birth, two of which must be after 14. 
Obama's mother would have satisfied that, she was 18.


However, the law at the time of Obama's birth required 10 years total 
and five years after 14. Given that Obama's mother was 18 at his 
birth, if Obama was born outside the U.S., then he'd not have had 
citizenship by right of birth at that time. I'm sure this makes the 
birthers all hot and bothered.


I don't know about the retroactive applicability of the new law. The 
Wikipedia article implies that it was not retroactive, which is a tad 
weird. But sometimes laws are weird.


It's claimed that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii, but in Kenya. This 
creates a problem. I've bought foreign-born children into the U.S. 
You can't just saunter through customs with the kid. You have to show 
documents. In particular, you generally have to show a passport. To 
get a passport, you generally need a birth certificate. So if the 
birth certificate was forged, it would have to have been forged way 
back then, when this was a poor mother, not socially connected.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birther

The Indonesian connection is completely irrelevant. Obama could have 
had some right to be an Indonesian citizen, but I very much doubt 
that his U.S. passport was surrendered or that any act took place 
that would revoke U.S. citizenship.


It's been raised that anyone can get a birth certificate. Sure. 
I've done it, quite a few times. I delivered four of my first five 
children, at home. I filed the papers. They are generally to be filed 
by the one who attends the birth. The law generally requires that 
it be filed within so many days of the birth. I also worked with the 
Arizona Publich Health Department, because we were generally 
assisting parents to give birth at home, and their critical interest 
was that the births be registered, so we agreed to encourage the 
parents to register the births (and to inform the Health Department 
of births). For legal reasons, at that time, our trope was that the 
father, generally, actually delivered the baby. Sometimes so, 
sometimes not. You do what you have to do. Later, we were licensed 
and registration became a binding legal requirement.


The point is that it's filed timely, generally. If that fails, it can 
be registered late, but it must still be signed by the persons 
affirming the facts. The long form Obama birth certificate was signed 
by a physician, presumably the attending physician, I can't read the 
signature, but this could easily be determined who it was. The 
certification shows filing on August 8, 1961, 4 days after the 
certified birth, August 4. That's normal. The information on the 
certificate about parents was certified by the mother's signature on 
August 7. This is all totally normal.


There is other evidence of the birth at that time. See the Wikipedia 
article. The denial of that certificate is totally nuts, wishful 
thinking or smoke-screen.


By the way, birth announcements in newspapers are also often based on 
information provided, usually from the parents, but grandparents 
could do it. What information like that shows is that the claim of 
Hawaiian birth existed immediately. Not later. In this case, though, 
it appears that the listings of births came from the Health Department.


This is what happens when people believe that something is wrong 
and then go searching for it. They find facts to question or 
assert, creating a new story that satisfies their itch.


As to the alleged goal of the grandparents to make Obama a citizen, 
sure. However, consider their position at the time. This would have 
required felonies, forging birth certificates is a serious crime. 
Most people couldn't pull it off. This theory requires that the 
pregnant mother travel to Kenya. And then come back with the baby, 
and a birth certificate would be needed for a passport to come back 
in. You also 

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

All your eloquent words are futile until such time as you can answer one 
simple question.


Why is bambi still hiding his real Vault Birth Certificate?

It makes no sense to do so, unless one is hiding something.  This 
controversy will end 1 second after bambi releases his vault BC.  There is 
no need to spend millions of taxpayer money for this.  There is no need for 
all your eloquent speculations and explanations.  Just do it and be done 
with it.  Why continue the hiding?



Jojo





- Original Message - 
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 1:17 AM
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy




At 01:28 PM 8/8/2012, Ron Wormus wrote:
As far as I know a child born to a US citizen is automatically also a 
citizen regardless of location of birth.  I have grand daughters born in 
Switzerland who have dual citizenship.


As with anything, it depends on what you mean by citizen. Further, it is 
not clear that the Constitutional Rule is subject to modification by 
statute, but it's also obvious that the definition of U.S. has shifted 
because of later events. The rules for *being recognized* as a U.S. 
citizen by virtue of birth are a bit complicated, but they are only 
designed to rule out situations where it's not clear what would be 
equitable.


I.e., a single citizen parent, with a non-citizen other parent, can create 
a marginal situation, and the rules are designed to require a showing that 
the single parent was not only a U.S. citizen, but had a real relationship 
with the U.S., by living here a certain minimum time, after 14 years of 
age. The number of years required changed. Presently, it is five years of 
residence in the U.S. by the citizen-parent before the birth, two of which 
must be after 14. Obama's mother would have satisfied that, she was 18.


However, the law at the time of Obama's birth required 10 years total and 
five years after 14. Given that Obama's mother was 18 at his birth, if 
Obama was born outside the U.S., then he'd not have had citizenship by 
right of birth at that time. I'm sure this makes the birthers all hot and 
bothered.


I don't know about the retroactive applicability of the new law. The 
Wikipedia article implies that it was not retroactive, which is a tad 
weird. But sometimes laws are weird.


It's claimed that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii, but in Kenya. This creates 
a problem. I've bought foreign-born children into the U.S. You can't just 
saunter through customs with the kid. You have to show documents. In 
particular, you generally have to show a passport. To get a passport, you 
generally need a birth certificate. So if the birth certificate was 
forged, it would have to have been forged way back then, when this was a 
poor mother, not socially connected.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birther

The Indonesian connection is completely irrelevant. Obama could have had 
some right to be an Indonesian citizen, but I very much doubt that his 
U.S. passport was surrendered or that any act took place that would revoke 
U.S. citizenship.


It's been raised that anyone can get a birth certificate. Sure. I've 
done it, quite a few times. I delivered four of my first five children, at 
home. I filed the papers. They are generally to be filed by the one who 
attends the birth. The law generally requires that it be filed within so 
many days of the birth. I also worked with the Arizona Publich Health 
Department, because we were generally assisting parents to give birth at 
home, and their critical interest was that the births be registered, so we 
agreed to encourage the parents to register the births (and to inform the 
Health Department of births). For legal reasons, at that time, our trope 
was that the father, generally, actually delivered the baby. Sometimes so, 
sometimes not. You do what you have to do. Later, we were licensed and 
registration became a binding legal requirement.


The point is that it's filed timely, generally. If that fails, it can be 
registered late, but it must still be signed by the persons affirming the 
facts. The long form Obama birth certificate was signed by a physician, 
presumably the attending physician, I can't read the signature, but this 
could easily be determined who it was. The certification shows filing on 
August 8, 1961, 4 days after the certified birth, August 4. That's normal. 
The information on the certificate about parents was certified by the 
mother's signature on August 7. This is all totally normal.


There is other evidence of the birth at that time. See the Wikipedia 
article. The denial of that certificate is totally nuts, wishful thinking 
or smoke-screen.


By the way, birth announcements in newspapers are also often based on 
information provided, usually from the parents, but grandparents could do 
it. What information like that shows is that the claim of Hawaiian birth

RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jones Beene]

Let's drop the political BS. 

We do not need it here. 

There are great things happening in Austin - this crap belittles it all.

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 11:39 AM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
All your eloquent words are futile until such time as you can 
answer one simple question.


Why is bambi still hiding his real Vault Birth Certificate?

It makes no sense to do so, unless one is hiding something.  This 
controversy will end 1 second after bambi releases his vault 
BC.  There is no need to spend millions of taxpayer money for 
this.  There is no need for all your eloquent speculations and 
explanations.  Just do it and be done with it.  Why continue the hiding?


Uh, Obama long ago released the Long Form Birth Certificate. That's 
the original document signed by the mother and attending physician.


There is no other vault certificate. The Hawaii Long Forms from 
then are kept in a bound volume. They are not publicly accessible. 
That, in fact, is why it took so long for Obama to release the Long 
Form. It took a special request and a special decision by the Health 
Department. You can't just request the Long Form, there is no procedure for it.


You are asking a loaded question, Jojo, that assumes something is 
being hidden. What makes you so certain of that, such that you can 
ask such a question and not simply be a liar, liar, pants on fire?


Do you imagine that Jesus loves liars and deceivers? All in a good 
cause? One test of the sincerity of faith is dedication to truth and 
honesty, regardless of implications, of reputation or face.


The only other documents that would exist would be doctor's notes or 
notes taken by nurses. These are not birth certificates and they 
don't have legal force. They are used temporarily until the attending 
physicician -- or midwife or parent or other person, under unusual 
circumstances -- gets around to signing the thing. They are almost 
certainly long ago discarded. But they might exist, in old charts, if 
those are in an archive somewhere. Obama would not have access to 
them, not directly. But I suppose he could ask.


Why should he? The signed, attested documents, executed under laws 
that would penalize false statements, are legally the strongest 
documents that exist. Old notes would not supersede them, because 
notes can be wrong and nobody has signed them as being true.


I'm starting to doubt that Jojo is serious. This could merely be trolling. 

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

 qualified to be present. Bambi is a deer, and 
has no birth certificate.



The Shadow Government Kabbal


Kabal or Cabal. Spell it correcly.


 is counting on the fact that Americans are either dumb or apathetic.


yeah. Both.

  They just don't know or they just don't care. Well, they just 
underestimated Americans, cause 70% are demanding that bambi comes 
clean and present his real Vault Birth Certificate.


Now, Dave was not exactly correct. Substantially, if one has an 
American citizen mother, one is a natural born citizen (by right of 
birth), but there are exceptions. They have changed over the years. 
According to the law at the time of Obama's birth, his mother would 
have had to have resided in the U.S. for five years at some point 
after turning 14. Since she was three months shy of 19 at the time of 
the birth, Obama would not have been qualified as natural born under 
that law. The law was changed, it's now two years. Easily qualified.


It's not clear that legislation that establishes citizenship rights 
can alter the meaning of the Constitutional provision. But a contrary 
opinion leads to even worse problems.


Which law applies? I don't know and don't care, because Obama was 
born in Hawaii, that is legally certain at this point.


Prove the documents are forgeries, with evidence that would stand up 
in court, or shut up. You just make yourself look like an idiot.


If the documents are forgeries, apparently they are very old 
forgeries, accompanied by birth announcements in newspapers. Come on, 
Jojo, how long will you keep up this charade?


Until the Day of Judgment?



- Original Message - From: lorenhe...@aol.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think 
we are crazy




 I thought that since his mother was an American citizen then he
automatically was.  Is this not the way it pans out?  Does the 
location of birth

outside of the USA make one a non citizen?

Dave 
/HTML

RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[MarkI-ZeroPoint]

 they added the requirement
of being 'natural born' and for very specific reasons which have been
explained already.

That is the central issue at hand, and I will not go into it any further
here, as I feel in this case one must decide for him/herself.  Most have
already decided and nothing will change their minds, however, for those who
want to research this further, and feel that they understand the history and
legal foundations as best as possible, I will suggest the following website:

http://people.mags.net/tonchen/birthers.htm

It is one of the most thoroughly researched websites which explanations the
history, the court cases, and legal thinking on the issue... why do I not
simply refer to a US SupCt case here?  Because the SCOTUS has NOT ruled on
the legal definition of 'natural born citizen'!  Not yet anyway... read and
decide for yourself.

As an interesting side-story, I remember looking at an early draft of the
Massachusetts Constitution, and it *specifically forbid attorneys from
running for any elected office*.  That clause never made it past a few
drafts!  I don't know what percentage of Congressmen and Senators are
lawyers, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was well above 50%.  If all the
states had adopted that rule in their own Constitutions, I don't think we'd
be in the mess we're in now...

-Mark
PS: Sorry Jones, but I felt compelled to respond. ;-)


-Original Message-
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 10:02 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
crazy


Let's drop the political BS. 

We do not need it here. 

There are great things happening in Austin - this crap belittles it all.

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 11:08 AM 8/9/2012, ecat builder wrote:

There are many questions about Obama's past.

It is an indisputable fact that the Long Form Birth Certificate 
posted on the http://whitehouse.govwhitehouse.gov web site 
manipulated in photoshop. The moron who created the PDF forgot to 
flatten all of the layers, so that anyone could go in an move 
important parts of the document around, including the registrar's 
stamp. What parts of the document are accurate, and why was it 
altered at all? The state of HI uses a number of weasel words to say 
he was born here without backing it up with an actual document.


No, the actual document was shown to the press. Printed on that 
special paper. The clumsiness with the PDF actually shows naivete, 
not sophisticated forgery, for sure. You don't think that the 
President could access some sophisticated forgery skills if needed. 
Look, anybody could have done better.


People alter stuff to publish it. Happens all the time. I don't know 
the provenance of the images people are looking at, what they went 
through. But a visible change between that document and what is in 
the Hawaii book would be easily discoverable, a really stupid 
forgery, when the original exists and can be accessed with a court order.


A number of explanations are possible-- when Obama was adopted by 
his Indonesian father, the birth certificate may have been modified 
or altered, as is often the case with adoptions. The actual BC may 
have been lost or destroyed.


Modified in a PDF file?

As is often the case with adoptions? No, this is ignorant. Birth 
certificates are not altered for adoptions. There are additional 
certificates that can be obtained, for various purposes, but they do 
not contain false information. They might merely conceal some 
information. The certificate that has been published is the long 
form, which is a signed and attested document, attested by, in this 
case, the mother and the attending physician.


I personally doubt Obama was born in Kenya, but Obama is hiding 
something, or playing a strange game with millions of taxpayer and 
campaign dollars. There have been dozens of lawsuits claiming he may 
be ineligible that could be resolved (perhaps) with the presentation 
of a birth certificate. All fail due to lack of standing but still 
require hundreds of hours of court work.


Sure. And who is responsible for that. Ecat builder, Obama released 
the long form. He had to go to special trouble to get that, the state 
did not want to issue it. (They don't want to have to dig through 
those archives.) It looks to me like the birthers have had some 
success in confusing people about this.


A US military doctor had questions and tried to assure himself that 
Obama was constitutionally eligible to hold office and ended up in 
Leavenworth... Poor judgement on his part, but again, easily solved 
had Obama not played hide-and-seek with his records.


The state certified the birth. That people doubted that is not the 
fault of the state, nor of Obama. The doctor, I'm quite sure, 
did  not end up in Leavenworth merely because he tried to assure himself.



Of course, Jojo makes a good point that having dual citizenship at 
birth would make someone ineligible as Natural Born Citizen, which 
might explain O's reluctance to enter evidence into a court. The 
constitution was written so that the president could not be a 
commander from an invading country or have divided loyalties.


It's unclear why it was written the way it was. It was apparently a 
last-minute change. Dual citizenship does not disqualify one from 
being President. There is no precedent for that. It's something that 
voters can consider.


As this author points out, the biggest question is Obama's story of 
attending Occidental where he was a self-admitted pot-smoking bad 
student.. how did he get in? Why does nobody remember him? Who paid 
for his college? Was he enrolled as a foreigner? What were his grades?

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-college-classmate-the-obama-scandal-is-at-columbia/http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-college-classmate-the-obama-scandal-is-at-columbia/


OMG. He admitted smoking pot? Now I really need to go out and 
campaign for him. He was a bad student? What a success story, then!


Jed is not the only one who thinks that anyone who doesn't fawn over 
Obama is a racist.


I haven't seen evidence for racism here. Just stupidity, which 
apparently can exist among racists and non-racists. Though most 
people are racist to one degree or other. That's quite another 
discussion. The older, highly permicious racism is mostly dead, 
afraid to show its face. But a more insidious racism still exists. If 
you don't understand it, it's because you'e white.


That's a joke, though under the joke might be some truth.

 Let me remind everyone about how most conservatives also didn't 
like Carter, Clinton, and many were not fond of GW. We are equal 
opportunity 

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Weapons-grade Balonium

Everyone with half a brain cell knows that what he released was faked.  But 
I guess I can forgive you because you don't have half a brain cell.


You say that the Vault BC can not be obtained easily.  You say they do not 
have procedures for getting the real Long Form Vault BC.  You say this are 
not publicly accessible.  You say there are no other Vault certificate 
Well, tell that to the Nordyke twins who were born within days of Bambi and 
they can show us their long form BC, which they obtained publicly, which 
they obtained easily within days of their request.  Why doesn't bambi have 
something like the BC of the Nordyke twins.  I suppose the Nordyke twins 
faked their long form BC to show to us; while bambi being a consumate muslim 
would not lie and hence his BC he posted was real.  OK, whatever 



Jojo

PS.  I know for a fact that Jesus Christ does not like lying so I am not 
lying.  What I do know is that allah (aka Satan) is a liar and the father of 
lies.  That is why, you as an allah slave have no compunction at all about 
your blatant lies.  That is why Bin Laden has no compunction in lying to 
kill people.


(Remember, you started this religious attack.  This is your third post with 
religious attacks. I never initiate a personal attack but I will give as 
good as I take.)







- Original Message - 
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 2:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy




At 11:39 AM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
All your eloquent words are futile until such time as you can answer one 
simple question.


Why is bambi still hiding his real Vault Birth Certificate?

It makes no sense to do so, unless one is hiding something.  This 
controversy will end 1 second after bambi releases his vault BC.  There is 
no need to spend millions of taxpayer money for this.  There is no need 
for all your eloquent speculations and explanations.  Just do it and be 
done with it.  Why continue the hiding?


Uh, Obama long ago released the Long Form Birth Certificate. That's the 
original document signed by the mother and attending physician.


There is no other vault certificate. The Hawaii Long Forms from then are 
kept in a bound volume. They are not publicly accessible. That, in fact, 
is why it took so long for Obama to release the Long Form. It took a 
special request and a special decision by the Health Department. You can't 
just request the Long Form, there is no procedure for it.


You are asking a loaded question, Jojo, that assumes something is being 
hidden. What makes you so certain of that, such that you can ask such a 
question and not simply be a liar, liar, pants on fire?


Do you imagine that Jesus loves liars and deceivers? All in a good cause? 
One test of the sincerity of faith is dedication to truth and honesty, 
regardless of implications, of reputation or face.


The only other documents that would exist would be doctor's notes or notes 
taken by nurses. These are not birth certificates and they don't have 
legal force. They are used temporarily until the attending physicician --  
or midwife or parent or other person, under unusual circumstances -- gets 
around to signing the thing. They are almost certainly long ago discarded. 
But they might exist, in old charts, if those are in an archive somewhere. 
Obama would not have access to them, not directly. But I suppose he could 
ask.


Why should he? The signed, attested documents, executed under laws that 
would penalize false statements, are legally the strongest documents that 
exist. Old notes would not supersede them, because notes can be wrong and 
nobody has signed them as being true.


I'm starting to doubt that Jojo is serious. This could merely be trolling.

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Baloney.  This is your opinion proffered as law.

Nothing more than a bunch of BS.  A Natural Born US citizen is one with both 
US citizen parents and born on US soil.  Period.  Stop the lies.


Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy




At 10:38 AM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Bambi's mother was a US citizen, although by the laws during that time, 
she was too young to confer US citizenship to bambi.  But even if she 
could, that would only make Bambi a mere US citizen; not a Natural Born US 
Citizen.


This is made up. The bulk of interpretation of natural born US citizen 
is citizenship by right of birth, as distinct from later actions. That is, 
if the person can, merely by showing the circumstances of birth, establish 
citizenship, they are natural born. The provision, as interpreted, 
distinguishes between natural birth citizenship and naturalized or adopted 
citizenship.


My two youngest daughters are U.S. citizens, but not by right of birth, it 
was through later adoption and legal admission into the U.S. That's not by 
right of birth.


It is correct that if Obama had been born elsewhere, to his mother married 
to a British citizen, as he was at the time, he'd not have been a natural 
born citizen by the laws regarding citizenship at that time. He was born 
about three months too early, his mother was only 18, and had not lived in 
the U.S. for five years after age 14. Three months later, she had. This, 
however, is a complexity not contemplated in the Constitution and I would 
not consider the matter determined until it was litigated.


It could be argued, indeed, that the Constitutional provision refers only 
to a very narrow definition of natural born, though this, itself, leads 
to some severe interpretive problems. I doubt a court would adopt that. So 
far, it hasn't, and natural born citizen has clearly meant anyone born in 
the U.S., citizenship by right of birth location, but also those whose 
parents are citizens, both parents, and it is only when it is only one 
parent that the rules get complicated.


It's all moot. Obama was born in Hawaii, as a legal fact. Overturning that 
legal fact would be extremely difficult, and, so far, it looks like 
attempts to do it have been based on forged documents and pure innuendo 
and speculation.


I got an email, for example, that claimed the hospital on the long form 
birth certificate didn't exist at the time of the birth. That demonstrates 
just how wrong one can be by doing a little internet searching and jumping 
to conclusions. Aha! Look at this! It says right here:


Name of the Hospital Obama was supposedly born at should have been 
Kauikeolani Children's Hospital until 1978. Then they merged with the 
Kapi'olani Maternity Home in 1978 and became Kapi'olani Medical Center for 
Women  Children.



Of course, none of those are the name of the hospital on the birth 
certificate. It says Kapiolani Maternal and Gynecological Hospital. In 
fact reading the alleged fact, I don't know which institution Obama was 
born in. Could have been the Children's Hospital or the Maternity Home. 
And either one could use the name Kapiolani Maternal and Gynecological 
Hospital for the maternity unit. Someone jumped to conclusions.


The obvious way to test this: look for other birth certificates from the 
same period with the same name.


It's been done.

http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/yes-there-was-a-kapiolani-maternity-gynecological-hospital-in-1961/

I really want to point to the strong belief behind these posts. It's like 
the pseudoskepticism that has afflicted cold fusion. No matter what 
evidence is shown, there is always an objection. The goal posts move. It's 
obvious that the belief is fixed.


It's the same with other issues. Once one buys that the Bible is not only 
the True Word of God, but also that one is correctly interpreting it 
(that's ego and attachment), everything that appears to be different --  
such as evolution -- *must* be false. So one searches for reasons why it's 
false, so as to appear rational.


As to real faith, it doesn't look like that. One would have no certainty, 
with real faith, that others are wrong. One would be unmoved by 
disagreement, one would have no problem considering what others mean, and 
faith is a condition of the heart, not a set of texts.


Many people are unaware of this salient requirement.  To them a US citizen 
is qualified automatically to be POTUS.  That is not what the Constitution 
says:  In order for one to be qualifed, one needs to be a Natural Born US 
Citizen.


Strav man argument. People who seriously write about this know the 
requirment. Right or wrong, it is a requirement. My youngest two daughters 
are not eligible to be President. But the rule might be changed

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

The actual BC was shown to the press  Baloney.

What was shown to the press was a printout of the BC they posted on the web 
site, which we know was a fake.  Show me a BC like the ones the Nordyke 
twins have.  Why should bambi BC be different from the long form BC the 
Nordyke twins got from Hawaii authorites?



Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy




At 11:08 AM 8/9/2012, ecat builder wrote:

There are many questions about Obama's past.

It is an indisputable fact that the Long Form Birth Certificate posted 
on the http://whitehouse.govwhitehouse.gov web site manipulated in 
photoshop. The moron who created the PDF forgot to flatten all of the 
layers, so that anyone could go in an move important parts of the document 
around, including the registrar's stamp. What parts of the document are 
accurate, and why was it altered at all? The state of HI uses a number of 
weasel words to say he was born here without backing it up with an actual 
document.


No, the actual document was shown to the press. Printed on that special 
paper. The clumsiness with the PDF actually shows naivete, not 
sophisticated forgery, for sure. You don't think that the President could 
access some sophisticated forgery skills if needed. Look, anybody could 
have done better.


People alter stuff to publish it. Happens all the time. I don't know the 
provenance of the images people are looking at, what they went through. 
But a visible change between that document and what is in the Hawaii book 
would be easily discoverable, a really stupid forgery, when the original 
exists and can be accessed with a court order.


A number of explanations are possible-- when Obama was adopted by his 
Indonesian father, the birth certificate may have been modified or 
altered, as is often the case with adoptions. The actual BC may have been 
lost or destroyed.


Modified in a PDF file?

As is often the case with adoptions? No, this is ignorant. Birth 
certificates are not altered for adoptions. There are additional 
certificates that can be obtained, for various purposes, but they do not 
contain false information. They might merely conceal some information. The 
certificate that has been published is the long form, which is a signed 
and attested document, attested by, in this case, the mother and the 
attending physician.


I personally doubt Obama was born in Kenya, but Obama is hiding something, 
or playing a strange game with millions of taxpayer and campaign dollars. 
There have been dozens of lawsuits claiming he may be ineligible that 
could be resolved (perhaps) with the presentation of a birth certificate. 
All fail due to lack of standing but still require hundreds of hours of 
court work.


Sure. And who is responsible for that. Ecat builder, Obama released the 
long form. He had to go to special trouble to get that, the state did not 
want to issue it. (They don't want to have to dig through those archives.) 
It looks to me like the birthers have had some success in confusing 
people about this.


A US military doctor had questions and tried to assure himself that Obama 
was constitutionally eligible to hold office and ended up in 
Leavenworth... Poor judgement on his part, but again, easily solved had 
Obama not played hide-and-seek with his records.


The state certified the birth. That people doubted that is not the fault 
of the state, nor of Obama. The doctor, I'm quite sure, did  not end up in 
Leavenworth merely because he tried to assure himself.



Of course, Jojo makes a good point that having dual citizenship at birth 
would make someone ineligible as Natural Born Citizen, which might 
explain O's reluctance to enter evidence into a court. The constitution 
was written so that the president could not be a commander from an 
invading country or have divided loyalties.


It's unclear why it was written the way it was. It was apparently a 
last-minute change. Dual citizenship does not disqualify one from being 
President. There is no precedent for that. It's something that voters can 
consider.


As this author points out, the biggest question is Obama's story of 
attending Occidental where he was a self-admitted pot-smoking bad 
student.. how did he get in? Why does nobody remember him? Who paid for 
his college? Was he enrolled as a foreigner? What were his grades?

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-college-classmate-the-obama-scandal-is-at-columbia/http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-college-classmate-the-obama-scandal-is-at-columbia/


OMG. He admitted smoking pot? Now I really need to go out and campaign for 
him. He was a bad student? What a success story, then!


Jed is not the only one who thinks that anyone who doesn't fawn over Obama 
is a racist.


I haven't seen

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Daniel Rocha]

He didn`t say anything bad about Jesus, he just questioned if you were
following His principles properly. I am sure Abd has Jesus in high regard.
But, now, it seems you are really begging for being banned.

2012/8/9 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com



 PS.  I know for a fact that Jesus Christ does not like lying so I am not
 lying.  What I do know is that allah (aka Satan) is a liar and the father
 of lies.  That is why, you as an allah slave have no compunction at all
 about your blatant lies.  That is why Bin Laden has no compunction in lying
 to kill people.

 (Remember, you started this religious attack.  This is your third post
 with religious attacks. I never initiate a personal attack but I will give
 as good as I take.)







 - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax 
 a...@lomaxdesign.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 2:39 AM
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
 crazy



  At 11:39 AM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:

 All your eloquent words are futile until such time as you can answer
 one simple question.

 Why is bambi still hiding his real Vault Birth Certificate?

 It makes no sense to do so, unless one is hiding something.  This
 controversy will end 1 second after bambi releases his vault BC.  There is
 no need to spend millions of taxpayer money for this.  There is no need for
 all your eloquent speculations and explanations.  Just do it and be done
 with it.  Why continue the hiding?


 Uh, Obama long ago released the Long Form Birth Certificate. That's the
 original document signed by the mother and attending physician.

 There is no other vault certificate. The Hawaii Long Forms from then
 are kept in a bound volume. They are not publicly accessible. That, in
 fact, is why it took so long for Obama to release the Long Form. It took a
 special request and a special decision by the Health Department. You can't
 just request the Long Form, there is no procedure for it.

 You are asking a loaded question, Jojo, that assumes something is being
 hidden. What makes you so certain of that, such that you can ask such a
 question and not simply be a liar, liar, pants on fire?

 Do you imagine that Jesus loves liars and deceivers? All in a good cause?
 One test of the sincerity of faith is dedication to truth and honesty,
 regardless of implications, of reputation or face.

 The only other documents that would exist would be doctor's notes or
 notes taken by nurses. These are not birth certificates and they don't
 have legal force. They are used temporarily until the attending physicician
 --  or midwife or parent or other person, under unusual circumstances --
 gets around to signing the thing. They are almost certainly long ago
 discarded. But they might exist, in old charts, if those are in an archive
 somewhere. Obama would not have access to them, not directly. But I suppose
 he could ask.

 Why should he? The signed, attested documents, executed under laws that
 would penalize false statements, are legally the strongest documents that
 exist. Old notes would not supersede them, because notes can be wrong and
 nobody has signed them as being true.

 I'm starting to doubt that Jojo is serious. This could merely be trolling.





-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Straw Man argument.

First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births 
in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii 
authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii.   Hawaii 
authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny though cause that 
address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents.

Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to 
make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president.  That's a 
straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US 
citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want 
their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.



But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret.  
He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release 
his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your eloquent reasons will not 
overcome this simple fact.


Jojo






  - Original Message - 
  From: Patrick Ellul 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  http://factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/


  In fact, the conspiracy would need to be even deeper than our colleagues 
realized. In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama instead 
found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu Advertiser 
on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961:





  Of course, it’s distantly possible that Obama’s grandparents may have planted 
the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his U.S. 
citizenship in order to run for president someday.




  On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

Of course I know his real name.  He was naturalized as an Indonesian 
citizen as Barry Soetero.  The Indonesian government knows this as a fact but 
they are holding this over Criminal-in-chief's head to win concession from the 
American Government.  This is the danger of divided loyalties for a president.  
The founding fathers wisely included the Natural Born provision exactly to 
prevent situations like this.


Jojo


  - Original Message - 
  From: Daniel Rocha 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  So, his name is no Barak Obama or similar? And you know the real name?


  2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be 
all over me and do their intimidation routine. 





  - Original Message - 
  From: Daniel Rocha 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we 
are crazy


  Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame 
ape, is a bit racist? 


  2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

LOL,  if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be 
such a big deal.

Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief.  He violated and 
trampled on the most basic law of our country.  Donkeykong is a criminal and 
should be removed, by force if necessary. 



Jojo









  -- 
  Daniel Rocha - RJ 
  danieldi...@gmail.com







  -- 
  Daniel Rocha - RJ 
  danieldi...@gmail.com







  -- 
  Patrick

  www.tRacePerfect.com
  The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
  The quickest puzzle ever! 

image.jpeg

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Patrick Ellul]

fair enough.

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 Straw Man argument.

 First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all
 births in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a
 birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in
 Hawaii.   Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny
 though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents.

 Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired
 to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president.
 That's a straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits
 of US citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that
 they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.



 But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still
 secret.  He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone
 call to release his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your eloquent
 reasons will not overcome this simple fact.


 Jojo







 - Original Message -
 *From:* Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:36 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we
 are crazy

 http://factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/

 In fact, the conspiracy would need to be even deeper than our colleagues
 realized. In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama
 instead found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu
 Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961:

 [image: Inline image 1]

 Of course, it’s distantly possible that Obama’s grandparents may have
 planted the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his
 U.S. citizenship in order to run for president someday.


 On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 Of course I know his real name.  He was naturalized as an Indonesian
 citizen as Barry Soetero.  The Indonesian government knows this as a fact
 but they are holding this over Criminal-in-chief's head to win concession
 from the American Government.  This is the danger of divided loyalties for
 a president.  The founding fathers wisely included the Natural Born
 provision exactly to prevent situations like this.


 Jojo



  - Original Message -
 *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
  *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:29 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we
 are crazy

 So, his name is no Barak Obama or similar? And you know the real name?

 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

 **
 I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be all
 over me and do their intimidation routine.






  - Original Message -
 *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
  *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we
 are crazy

  Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape,
 is a bit racist?

 2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

 LOL,  if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such
 a big deal.

 Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief.  He violated and trampled on
 the most basic law of our country.  Donkeykong is a criminal and should be
 removed, by force if necessary.



 Jojo






 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com




 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com




 --
 Patrick

 www.tRacePerfect.com
 The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
 The quickest puzzle ever!




-- 
Patrick

www.tRacePerfect.com
The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
The quickest puzzle ever!
image.jpeg

RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[MarkI-ZeroPoint]

Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about.

 

His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship.  No
conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their
grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.

 

Agreed.   His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so
it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning  to the USA
*permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a
U.S. Citizen.  If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would. 

 

I'm sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS
someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the in
case he wanted to become President someday argument. there is reason enough
by just coming here.

 

If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to
be a US citizen?

 

I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and
evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far. perhaps after the
next election we'll find out?   Or not.

 

-Mark

 

 

From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
crazy

 

Straw Man argument.

 

First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all
births in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth to
Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii.
Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny though
cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents.

 

Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired
to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president.
That's a straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits
of US citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that
they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.

 

 

 

But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still
secret.  He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone
call to release his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your eloquent
reasons will not overcome this simple fact.

 

Jojo

 

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Michele Comitini]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen




2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net:
 Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about…



 “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship.  No
 conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their
 grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.”



 Agreed.   His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so
 it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning  to the USA
 *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a
 U.S. Citizen.  If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would…



 I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS
 someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in
 case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason enough
 by just coming here.



 If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to
 be a US citizen?



 I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and
 evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after the
 next election we’ll find out?   Or not…



 -Mark





 From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com


 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
 crazy



 Straw Man argument.



 First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all
 births in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth to
 Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii.
 Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny though
 cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents.



 Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired
 to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president.
 That's a straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits
 of US citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that
 they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.







 But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still
 secret.  He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone
 call to release his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your eloquent
 reasons will not overcome this simple fact.



 Jojo

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Michele, two things:

First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963.  Stanley Ann 
Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at that 
time.


Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President.  The 
founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship as a 
qualification for being POTUS.  I trust you know the difference between a 
U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen.  Even if bambi was a U.S. 
citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified 
unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen.





Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen




2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net:

Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about…



“His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. 
No

conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their
grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.”



Agreed.   His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so
it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning  to the USA
*permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a
U.S. Citizen.  If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would…



I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being 
POTUS

someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in
case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason 
enough

by just coming here.



If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to
be a US citizen?



I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments 
and
evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after 
the

next election we’ll find out?   Or not…



-Mark





From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com


Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
crazy



Straw Man argument.



First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all
births in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth to
Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii.
Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny 
though

cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents.



Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired
to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president.
That's a straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits
of US citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that
they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.







But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still
secret.  He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone
call to release his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your eloquent
reasons will not overcome this simple fact.



Jojo

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Michele Comitini]

Jojo,

I know US president must be born on US soil.
I do not know enough about Citizenship law to know if the mother was
eligible to confer Citizenship to her son, she was 18 at the time.
Reading wikipedia seems to say she was eligible in 1961, but as we
know wikipedia is far from complete.

mic



2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com:
 Michele, two things:

 First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963.  Stanley Ann
 Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at that
 time.

 Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President.  The
 founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship as a
 qualification for being POTUS.  I trust you know the difference between a
 U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen.  Even if bambi was a U.S.
 citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified
 unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen.




 Jojo



 - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini
 michele.comit...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM

 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
 crazy


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen




 2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net:

 Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about…



 “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship.
 No
 conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their
 grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.”



 Agreed.   His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so
 it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning  to the USA
 *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a
 U.S. Citizen.  If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would…



 I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being
 POTUS
 someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in
 case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason
 enough
 by just coming here.



 If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to
 be a US citizen?



 I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments
 and
 evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after
 the
 next election we’ll find out?   Or not…



 -Mark





 From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com


 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
 crazy



 Straw Man argument.



 First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all
 births in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth to
 Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii.
 Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny
 though
 cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents.



 Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired
 to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president.
 That's a straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits
 of US citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that
 they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.







 But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still
 secret.  He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone
 call to release his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your eloquent
 reasons will not overcome this simple fact.



 Jojo

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Michele, a Natural Born US citizen must fulfill 2 things:

1.  Must be born to two US citizen parents.
2.  Must be born in US soil.

Surely bambi does not qualify for number 1.  His alleged father was not a US 
citizen


Second, there is significant question as to where he was actually born.  He 
refuses to release his original vault BC.  All we have is a poorly 
photoshopped copy of his BC, which is surely a fake.



Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy



Jojo,

I know US president must be born on US soil.
I do not know enough about Citizenship law to know if the mother was
eligible to confer Citizenship to her son, she was 18 at the time.
Reading wikipedia seems to say she was eligible in 1961, but as we
know wikipedia is far from complete.

mic



2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com:

Michele, two things:

First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963.  Stanley Ann
Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at that
time.

Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President.  The
founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship as 
a

qualification for being POTUS.  I trust you know the difference between a
U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen.  Even if bambi was a U.S.
citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified
unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen.




Jojo



- Original Message - From: Michele Comitini
michele.comit...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM

Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
crazy


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen




2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net:


Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about…



“His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship.
No
conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their
grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.”



Agreed.   His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), 
so

it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning  to the USA
*permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be 
a

U.S. Citizen.  If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would…



I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being
POTUS
someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the 
“in

case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason
enough
by just coming here.



If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child 
to

be a US citizen?



I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments
and
evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after
the
next election we’ll find out?   Or not…



-Mark





From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com


Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
crazy



Straw Man argument.



First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all
births in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth to
Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii.
Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny
though
cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents.



Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly 
conspired

to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president.
That's a straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and knew the 
benefits
of US citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only 
that

they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.







But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still
secret.  He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone
call to release his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your eloquent
reasons will not overcome this simple fact.



Jojo

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jed Rothwell]

Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote:


 I know US president must be born on US soil.


That is incorrect. Several recent candidates such as John McCain were not
born on U.S. soil. That makes no difference at all. As long as one parent
is a U.S. citizen the child is a natural born U.S. citizen.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Daniel Rocha]

Does that exclude also people who are already president of another country?
It would be fun to be president of 2 countries!

2012/8/8 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com

 That is incorrect. Several recent candidates such as John McCain were not
 born on U.S. soil. That makes no difference at all. As long as one parent
 is a U.S. citizen the child is a natural born U.S. citizen.

 - Jed




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[David Roberson]

I thought that since his mother was an American citizen then he automatically 
was.  Is this not the way it pans out?  Does the location of birth outside of 
the USA make one a non citizen?

Dave


-Original Message-
From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, Aug 8, 2012 2:31 am
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy



Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about…
 
“His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship.  No 
conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild 
to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.”
 
Agreed.   His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it 
certainly is likely that *if* she was returning  to the USA *permanently*, and 
with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen.  If I was 
a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would… 
 
I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS 
someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in case 
he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason enough by just 
coming here.
 
If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a 
US citizen?
 
I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and 
evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after the 
next election we’ll find out?   Or not…
 
-Mark
 
 

From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

 

Straw Man argument.

 

First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births 
in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii 
authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii.   Hawaii 
authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny though cause that 
address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents.

 

Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to 
make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president.  That's a 
straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US 
citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want 
their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.

 

 

 

But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret.  
He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release 
his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your eloquent reasons will not 
overcome this simple fact.

 

Jojo

 

 

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Harry Veeder]

When is US soil US soil?

Would a person be ineligible if the soil he was born on only became US
soil after the person's birth?
And what if the soil ceased being US soil after he was born?

Instead of a simplistic rule, there should be some meaningful criteria
for deciding eligibility.

Harry

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Michele Comitini
michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote:
 Jojo,

 I know US president must be born on US soil.
 I do not know enough about Citizenship law to know if the mother was
 eligible to confer Citizenship to her son, she was 18 at the time.
 Reading wikipedia seems to say she was eligible in 1961, but as we
 know wikipedia is far from complete.

 mic



 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com:
 Michele, two things:

 First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963.  Stanley Ann
 Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at that
 time.

 Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President.  The
 founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship as a
 qualification for being POTUS.  I trust you know the difference between a
 U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen.  Even if bambi was a U.S.
 citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified
 unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen.




 Jojo



 - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini
 michele.comit...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM

 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
 crazy


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen




 2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net:

 Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about…



 “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship.
 No
 conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their
 grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.”



 Agreed.   His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so
 it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning  to the USA
 *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a
 U.S. Citizen.  If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would…



 I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being
 POTUS
 someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in
 case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason
 enough
 by just coming here.



 If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to
 be a US citizen?



 I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments
 and
 evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after
 the
 next election we’ll find out?   Or not…



 -Mark





 From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com


 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
 crazy



 Straw Man argument.



 First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all
 births in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth to
 Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii.
 Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny
 though
 cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents.



 Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired
 to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president.
 That's a straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits
 of US citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that
 they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.







 But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still
 secret.  He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone
 call to release his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your eloquent
 reasons will not overcome this simple fact.



 Jojo

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Harry Veeder]

and money. ;-)
harry

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote:
 why not a vote

 2012/8/8 Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com

 When is US soil US soil?

 Would a person be ineligible if the soil he was born on only became US
 soil after the person's birth?
 And what if the soil ceased being US soil after he was born?

 Instead of a simplistic rule, there should be some meaningful criteria
 for deciding eligibility.

 Harry

 On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Michele Comitini
 michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote:
  Jojo,
 
  I know US president must be born on US soil.
  I do not know enough about Citizenship law to know if the mother was
  eligible to confer Citizenship to her son, she was 18 at the time.
  Reading wikipedia seems to say she was eligible in 1961, but as we
  know wikipedia is far from complete.
 
  mic
 
 
 
  2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com:
  Michele, two things:
 
  First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963.  Stanley Ann
  Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at
  that
  time.
 
  Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President.
  The
  founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship
  as a
  qualification for being POTUS.  I trust you know the difference between
  a
  U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen.  Even if bambi was a U.S.
  citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified
  unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen.
 
 
 
 
  Jojo
 
 
 
  - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini
  michele.comit...@gmail.com
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM
 
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we
  are
  crazy
 
 
 
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen
 
 
 
 
  2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net:
 
  Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about…
 
 
 
  “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US
  citizenship.
  No
  conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their
  grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.”
 
 
 
  Agreed.   His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born
  here), so
  it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning  to the USA
  *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to
  be a
  U.S. Citizen.  If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck
  would…
 
 
 
  I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being
  POTUS
  someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the
  “in
  case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason
  enough
  by just coming here.
 
 
 
  If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your
  child to
  be a US citizen?
 
 
 
  I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the
  arguments
  and
  evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps
  after
  the
  next election we’ll find out?   Or not…
 
 
 
  -Mark
 
 
 
 
 
  From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com]
  Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 
 
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we
  are
  crazy
 
 
 
  Straw Man argument.
 
 
 
  First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post
  all
  births in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth
  to
  Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in
  Hawaii.
  Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny
  though
  cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents.
 
 
 
  Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly
  conspired
  to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president.
  That's a straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and knew the
  benefits
  of US citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only
  that
  they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still
  secret.  He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single
  phone
  call to release his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your
  eloquent
  reasons will not overcome this simple fact.
 
 
 
  Jojo
 
 
 
 
 

RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Ron Wormus]

As far as I know a child born to a US citizen is automatically also a 
citizen regardless of location of birth.  I have grand daughters born in 
Switzerland who have dual citizenship.

Ron

--On Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:31 PM -0700 MarkI-ZeroPoint 
zeropo...@charter.net wrote:





Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about…



His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US
citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that
they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.



Agreed.   His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here),
so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning  to the USA
*permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be
a U.S. Citizen.  If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck
would…



I'm sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being
POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up
the in case he wanted to become President someday argument…
there is reason enough by just coming here.



If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child
to be a US citizen?



I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments
and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps
after the next election we'll find out?   Or not…



-Mark






From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we
are crazy



Straw Man argument.



First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all
births in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth to
Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii.
Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny
though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's
parents.



Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly
conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be
president.  That's a straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and
knew the benefits of US citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to
be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is
good enough a reason.







But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still
secret.  He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone
call to release his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your eloquent
reasons will not overcome this simple fact.



Jojo

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[hellokevin]

Jojo:
 
I never thought I'd see 0bama's birth certificate debated here on Vortex.  
You've made it a fascinating place to visit for more than one reason.  
 
Regarding #2, who can blame 0bama for holding back his birth certificate when 
he hasn't been forced to do so?  This begs the question of who forces him to do 
so...
 
Regarding #1, it seems so simple.  It was the responsibility of the Supreme 
Court of the US to determine his eligibility, per the 20th amendment:  
 
 
Section 3. If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the 
President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall 
become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time 
fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have 
failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a 
President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the 
case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have 
qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which 
one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly 
until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
 
Notice that the order of events is spelled out: if the President elect shall 
have failed to qualify. That means the qualification takes place AFTER the 
General Public votes, and even AFTER the Electoral College. It also shows 
explicitly that the ELECTION RESULTS ARE SUBORDINATE TO QUALIFICATION. 
Further resources and copies of the constitution: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
 
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html 
 
It is the US Supreme Court who threw our republic into this constitutional 
tailspin.  0bama did what any selfish politician would do.  But Supreme Court 
members are given lifetime appointments so they can  be free from the political 
ramifications of their decisions.  Their JOB is to uphold the constitution.  
Period.  They didn't do it.  They threw this republic down the drain so that 
they could enjoy warm smiles at Washington DC cocktail parties.  
 
You may enjoy this birth certificate thread I started on Intrade.  It is the 
most-read thread in Intrade's  history.    In particular, I wonder how you 
would answer the hypotheticals I asked about Caesar crossing the Rubicon?  
 
https://bb.intrade.com/intradeForum/posts/list/570/2279.page#37978
 
Kevmo

 

--- On Wed, 8/8/12, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:


From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Date: Wednesday, August 8, 2012, 3:15 AM


Michele, a Natural Born US citizen must fulfill 2 things:

1.  Must be born to two US citizen parents.
2.  Must be born in US soil.

Surely bambi does not qualify for number 1.  His alleged father was not a US 
citizen

Second, there is significant question as to where he was actually born.  He 
refuses to release his original vault BC.  All we have is a poorly 
photoshopped copy of his BC, which is surely a fake.


Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


Jojo,

I know US president must be born on US soil.
I do not know enough about Citizenship law to know if the mother was
eligible to confer Citizenship to her son, she was 18 at the time.
Reading wikipedia seems to say she was eligible in 1961, but as we
know wikipedia is far from complete.

mic



2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com:
 Michele, two things:

 First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963.  Stanley Ann
 Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at that
 time.

 Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President.  The
 founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship as 
 a
 qualification for being POTUS.  I trust you know the difference between a
 U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen.  Even if bambi was a U.S.
 citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified
 unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen.




 Jojo



 - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini
 michele.comit...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM

 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
 crazy


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen




 2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net:

 Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about…



 “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship.
 No
 conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their
 grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.”



 Agreed.   His

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

That is incorrect Ron.  A child of one US citizen does not automatically 
become a US citizen.  He has to choose which parent's  citizenship he wants 
when he reaches 21.  Besides, Stanley Ann Dunham was too young to have 
conferred US citizenship to Bambi when he was born.  And a Dual Citizen is 
classified automatically as NOT a Natural-Born US Citizen.


A child born out of 2 US citizens but born out of US soil, can be a US 
citizen but not a Natural-Born US Citizen


A child born in US soil, but to non-US citizens, may become a US citizen but 
not a Natural-Born US Citizen.


A child born in US soil, but to only 1 US citizen parent, must choose which 
citizenship he wants when he reaches 21.  He may choose both and become a 
Dual Citizen, but he is certainly NOT a Natural-Born US citizen.


But mere US citizenship does not qualify one to be president.  He has to be 
Natural-Born US citizen.  Which means a child of 2 US citizens and born on 
US soil.


One theory says that a Natural Born US Citizen is one wherein he does not 
have to take any special action to get his US citizenship.  If Bambi has 
to choose US Citizenship, then he is automatically not a Natural-Born US 
citizen.  And this would be the case with Bambi, because he was an 
Indonesian Citizen when he was a child.  But since, he was not yet 21 at 
that time, he did not have to make a specific choice.  When he reached 21, 
he should have made that choice.  If he did not, then he is still an Illegal 
Alien in this country.  But none of this can be resolved because 
criminal-in-chief has a gag order on all agencies and private entities to 
keep his records secret.  Question is, WHY?




Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: Ron Wormus prot...@frii.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 2:28 AM
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy



As far as I know a child born to a US citizen is automatically also a
citizen regardless of location of birth.  I have grand daughters born in
Switzerland who have dual citizenship.
Ron

--On Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:31 PM -0700 MarkI-ZeroPoint
zeropo...@charter.net wrote:




Good debate!  This is what freedom of speech is all about…



His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US
citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that
they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.



Agreed.   His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here),
so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning  to the USA
*permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be
a U.S. Citizen.  If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck
would…



I'm sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being
POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up
the in case he wanted to become President someday argument…
there is reason enough by just coming here.



If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child
to be a US citizen?



I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments
and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps
after the next election we'll find out?   Or not…



-Mark






From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we
are crazy



Straw Man argument.



First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all
births in the newspaper.  During that time, anyone can report a birth to
Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii.
Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth.  Funny
though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's
parents.



Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly
conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be
president.  That's a straw man.   His grandparents were not dumb and
knew the benefits of US citizenship.  No conspiracy to be POTUS has to
be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is
good enough a reason.







But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still
secret.  He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone
call to release his vault BC.  Why hasn't he done it?  All your eloquent
reasons will not overcome this simple fact.



Jojo

RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

From Jojo

 

 Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake Birth

 Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long?

 

 Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. 

 You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with,

 using these one liners.

 

No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what
they do with their life after they are born that matters.

 

Would birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white?

 

Would any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of
Obama's birth certificate?

 

Pardon the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish
birthers would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It
is draining to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves
god fearing Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on
this matter.

 

The history book will have a lot to say about this unfortunate incident, and
it will not be good: A group of so-called god-fearing Americans hid their
bigotry behind a constitutional premise that Obama's birth certificate was
faked.

 

On the same vein, I think individuals like Arnold Schwarzenegger ought to
have the constitutional right to run for president. For better or worse, he
had been elected to run the most powerful state in the United States. Many
think he didn't to a half-assed job of it. Granted, if given the chance many
would probably not vote for Arnold, but I suspect many would. I think he
ought to have the chance. At least he isn't black.

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWorks.com

www.zazzle.com/orionworks

 

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Ah, playing the race card again.  I despise Donkeykong not because he's black 
but because he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America.  For your 
information, my favorite candidate was Alan Keyes not because he is black, but 
because of his strong conservative Christian Values.  Only liberals like you 
would be so naive to think that people vote based on the color of their skin.  
You liberals are the most racists people ever.

Birthers are tizzy about Donkeykong's birth certificate because there is such a 
thing as the Constitution in this country.  The Constitution may not matter to 
you liberal commies, but it matters to Americans who love their democratic and 
free country and those who believe in the rule of law.

I am being honest with myself.  I do not despise Donkeykong because he is 
black.  God is my witness.  Put Alan Keyes on the ballot and I will show you 
how I vote with my ballot as well as with my money.  Mike Huckabee was the only 
candidate I ever gave money to, and Alan Keyes will receive from me the maximum 
amount of contribution.

When liberal commies like you have nothing else to defend the criminal actions 
of Donkeykong, you resort to this race card.

No, I do not think Arnold Swartzenegger should have the right to run for 
president.  He is not qualified, in the same way the Donkeykong is NOT 
qualified.  So you think Donkeykong should not have to prove his Natural Born 
Citizenship status?   why let's just use that Constitution as toilet paper, 
shall we?

Sometimes, it just puzzles me how liberals think, and you've exemplified this 
quintessential liberal philosophy with this post.



Jojo


PS.  I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new 
Republican governor.  I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor union, 
welfare mentality.  I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure he wins 
re-election.




  - Original Message - 
  From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:00 PM
  Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  From Jojo

   

   Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake Birth

   Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long?

   

   Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. 

   You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with,

   using these one liners.

   

  No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what 
they do with their life after they are born that matters.

   

  Would birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white?

   

  Would any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of 
Obama's birth certificate?

   

  Pardon the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish 
birthers would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It is 
draining to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves god 
fearing Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on this 
matter.

   

  The history book will have a lot to say about this unfortunate incident, and 
it will not be good: A group of so-called god-fearing Americans hid their 
bigotry behind a constitutional premise that Obama's birth certificate was 
faked.

   

  On the same vein, I think individuals like Arnold Schwarzenegger ought to 
have the constitutional right to run for president. For better or worse, he had 
been elected to run the most powerful state in the United States. Many think he 
didn't to a half-assed job of it. Granted, if given the chance many would 
probably not vote for Arnold, but I suspect many would. I think he ought to 
have the chance. At least he isn't black.

   

  Regards,

  Steven Vincent Johnson

  www.OrionWorks.com

  www.zazzle.com/orionworks

   

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

Jojo, are you serious? . . .



 2012/8/6 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

 **
 Jed,

 Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake Birth
 Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long?


Yikes. I missed that.

I am glad I relegated Jaro to the kill file. Daniel: maybe you should too,
to preserve your peace of mind. Life is too short to deal with such people.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 PS.  I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new
 Republican governor.  I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor
 union, welfare mentality.  I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure
 he wins re-election.

That kind of personal attack will get you ejected from the list.  I
say you just invalidated the bet.

T

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[David Roberson]

Jojo, please hold down the attacks upon others in the vortex.  You make many 
good points within your discussion, but this type of name calling and attacks 
tend to turn off some of us.

Steven is a well respected member of the group that has a right to his opinions 
just as you.  I must admit that the suggestion that race is a major factor 
effecting your position is unwarranted and I hope will not be brought up again.

I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this 
unfortunate behavior.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 9:56 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy


Ah, playing the race card again.  I despise Donkeykong not because he's black 
but because he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America.  For your 
information, my favorite candidate was Alan Keyes not because he is black, but 
because of his strong conservative Christian Values.  Only liberals like you 
would be so naive to think that people vote based on the color of their skin.  
You liberals are the most racists people ever.
 
Birthers are tizzy about Donkeykong's birth certificate because there is such a 
thing as the Constitution in this country.  The Constitution may not matter to 
you liberal commies, but it matters to Americans who love their democratic and 
free country and those who believe in the rule of law.
 
I am being honest with myself.  I do not despise Donkeykong because he is 
black.  God is my witness.  Put Alan Keyes on the ballot and I will show you 
how I vote with my ballot as well as with my money.  Mike Huckabee was the only 
candidate I ever gave money to, and Alan Keyes will receive from me the maximum 
amount of contribution.
 
When liberal commies like you have nothing else to defend the criminal actions 
of Donkeykong, you resort to this race card.
 
No, I do not think Arnold Swartzenegger should have the right to run for 
president.  He is not qualified, in the same way the Donkeykong is NOT 
qualified.  So you think Donkeykong should not have to prove his Natural Born 
Citizenship status?   why let's just use that Constitution as toilet paper, 
shall we?
 
Sometimes, it just puzzles me how liberals think, and you've exemplified this 
quintessential liberal philosophy with this post.
 
 
 
Jojo
 
 
PS.  I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new 
Republican governor.  I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor union, 
welfare mentality.  I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure he wins 
re-election.
 
 
 
 
  
- Original Message - 
  
From:   OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson   
  
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:00   PM
  
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass   media makes scientists think we are 
crazy
  


  
  
From   Jojo
  
 
  
   Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake   Birth
  
   Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so   long?
  
 
  
   Once again, I find myself having to correct your   misinformation. 
  
 You   like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with,
  
   using these one liners.
  
 
  
No birth   certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what 
they do   with their life after they are born that matters.
  
 
  
Would   birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white?
  
 
  
Would   any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of 
Obama's   birth certificate?
  
 
  
Pardon   the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish 
birthers   would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It is 
draining   to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves god 
fearing   Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on this   
matter.
  
 
  
The   history book will have a lot to say about this unfortunate incident, and 
it   will not be good: A group of so-called god-fearing Americans hid their 
bigotry   behind a constitutional premise that Obama's birth certificate was   
faked.
  
 
  
On the   same vein, I think individuals like Arnold Schwarzenegger ought to 
have the   constitutional right to run for president. For better or worse, he 
had been   elected to run the most powerful state in the United States. Many 
think he   didn't to a half-assed job of it. Granted, if given the chance many 
would   probably not vote for Arnold, but I suspect many would. I think he 
ought to   have the chance. At least he isn't black.
  
 
  
Regards,
  
Steven   Vincent Johnson
  
www.OrionWorks.com
  
www.zazzle.com/orionworks
  
 

 

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Daniel Rocha]

Are you still joking? Unless in the utopic sense, no coherent communist is
a liberal. And communists despise people that traditionally self call
themsleves as liberals and conservatives equally because they aren't both
anti capitalist as they should be.

2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

 **
  he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America.



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Daniel Rocha]

In fact, I am amused!

2012/8/7 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Baloney, I said I would only reciprocate when attacked first; and that is 
exactly what I am doing.

If you want attacks to stop, then call for moderation in this forum from the 
people who are most guilty.  Off-topic posts are destroying this forum; and 
believe me, I am the last person who wants that to happen.


Jojo


  - Original Message - 
  From: David Roberson 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:40 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  Jojo, please hold down the attacks upon others in the vortex.  You make many 
good points within your discussion, but this type of name calling and attacks 
tend to turn off some of us.

  Steven is a well respected member of the group that has a right to his 
opinions just as you.  I must admit that the suggestion that race is a major 
factor effecting your position is unwarranted and I hope will not be brought up 
again.

  I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this 
unfortunate behavior.

  Dave
  -Original Message-
  From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com
  To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
  Sent: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 9:56 am
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  Ah, playing the race card again.  I despise Donkeykong not because he's black 
but because he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America.  For your 
information, my favorite candidate was Alan Keyes not because he is black, but 
because of his strong conservative Christian Values.  Only liberals like you 
would be so naive to think that people vote based on the color of their skin.  
You liberals are the most racists people ever.

  Birthers are tizzy about Donkeykong's birth certificate because there is such 
a thing as the Constitution in this country.  The Constitution may not matter 
to you liberal commies, but it matters to Americans who love their democratic 
and free country and those who believe in the rule of law.

  I am being honest with myself.  I do not despise Donkeykong because he is 
black.  God is my witness.  Put Alan Keyes on the ballot and I will show you 
how I vote with my ballot as well as with my money.  Mike Huckabee was the only 
candidate I ever gave money to, and Alan Keyes will receive from me the maximum 
amount of contribution.

  When liberal commies like you have nothing else to defend the criminal 
actions of Donkeykong, you resort to this race card.

  No, I do not think Arnold Swartzenegger should have the right to run for 
president.  He is not qualified, in the same way the Donkeykong is NOT 
qualified.  So you think Donkeykong should not have to prove his Natural Born 
Citizenship status?   why let's just use that Constitution as toilet paper, 
shall we?

  Sometimes, it just puzzles me how liberals think, and you've exemplified this 
quintessential liberal philosophy with this post.



  Jojo


  PS.  I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new 
Republican governor.  I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor union, 
welfare mentality.  I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure he wins 
re-election.




- Original Message - 
From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


From Jojo

 Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake Birth
 Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long?
 
 Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. 
 You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with,
 using these one liners.

No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's 
what they do with their life after they are born that matters.

Would birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white?

Would any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of 
Obama's birth certificate?

Pardon the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish 
birthers would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It is 
draining to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves god 
fearing Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on this 
matter.

The history book will have a lot to say about this unfortunate incident, 
and it will not be good: A group of so-called god-fearing Americans hid their 
bigotry behind a constitutional premise that Obama's birth certificate was 
faked.

On the same vein, I think individuals like Arnold Schwarzenegger ought to 
have the constitutional right to run for president. For better or worse, he had 
been elected to run the most powerful state in the United States. Many think he 
didn't to a half-assed job of it. Granted, if given the chance many would 
probably

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

The bet is only invalidated with my banning for this reason.  And since I 
have not been banned, I have not invalidated our bet.  And of course, Bill 
will use this opportunity to ban me now; although this is clearly not a 
personal attack.  It is an attack but not personal; and only in proportion 
to the attack I received.  Don't you consider SVJ calling me a bigot and 
racist an attack?  If you are a fair person, you would criticize him also. 
And if you don't, that only serves to prove what I have been saying all 
along.  And I would have won the spirit of our bet.


Besides, I don't care if I am banned.  If people here have a double 
standard, then I really don't want to be part of this forum.



Jojo





- Original Message - 
From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy




On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

PS.  I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the 
new

Republican governor.  I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor
union, welfare mentality.  I just might move up to Wisconsin to help 
ensure

he wins re-election.


That kind of personal attack will get you ejected from the list.  I
say you just invalidated the bet.

T

RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Mike Carrell]

The absurdity that any black ancestor makes one black is a residue of the
American Civil war where any descendents of white slaveholders and black
slaves would continue to be defined as black and segregated. To any but
the most prejudiced eye Obama can be equally regarded as white. My own
bloodlines are all Irish, descended from an indentured servant who arrived
before the 1776 revolution.

 

Mike Carrell

 

From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:01 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
crazy

 

From Jojo

 

 Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake Birth

 Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long?

 

 Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. 

 You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with,

 using these one liners.

 

No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what
they do with their life after they are born that matters.

 

Would birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white?

 

Would any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of
Obama's birth certificate?

 

Pardon the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish
birthers would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It
is draining to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves
god fearing Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on
this matter.

 

The history book will have a lot to say about this unfortunate incident, and
it will not be good: A group of so-called god-fearing Americans hid their
bigotry behind a constitutional premise that Obama's birth certificate was
faked.

 

On the same vein, I think individuals like Arnold Schwarzenegger ought to
have the constitutional right to run for president. For better or worse, he
had been elected to run the most powerful state in the United States. Many
think he didn't to a half-assed job of it. Granted, if given the chance many
would probably not vote for Arnold, but I suspect many would. I think he
ought to have the chance. At least he isn't black.

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWorks.com

www.zazzle.com/orionworks

 



This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department.

RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[MarkI-ZeroPoint]

All,

It was Steven that provoked this situation with his comments, albeit,
apologetically delivered. 

 

He has made similar derogatory comments before and I tend to just ignore
them, however, his repeated instances of calling people of politically
conservative viewpoint as racist is offensive, and typical of the far left.
Political Correctness is being used to squelch political debate, and the
fact that liberals are the ones who constantly invoke PC shows me that they
want to squelch opposing viewpoints.  The fact that they can't see the
hypocrisy in that is quite telling indeed.  The liberal media, and many of
the outspoken liberal celebrities are some of the most hateful, hypocritical
people I've seen.

 

And I agree with DaveR, that,

I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this
unfortunate behavior 

 

-Mark

 

From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 7:41 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
crazy

 

Jojo, please hold down the attacks upon others in the vortex.  You make many
good points within your discussion, but this type of name calling and
attacks tend to turn off some of us.

 

Steven is a well respected member of the group that has a right to his
opinions just as you.  I must admit that the suggestion that race is a major
factor effecting your position is unwarranted and I hope will not be brought
up again.

 

I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this
unfortunate behavior.

 

Dave

-Original Message-
From: Jojo Jaro  mailto:jth...@hotmail.com jth...@hotmail.com
To: vortex-l  mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 9:56 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
crazy

Ah, playing the race card again.  I despise Donkeykong not because he's
black but because he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America.
For your information, my favorite candidate was Alan Keyes not because he is
black, but because of his strong conservative Christian Values.  Only
liberals like you would be so naive to think that people vote based on the
color of their skin.  You liberals are the most racists people ever.

 

Birthers are tizzy about Donkeykong's birth certificate because there is
such a thing as the Constitution in this country.  The Constitution may not
matter to you liberal commies, but it matters to Americans who love their
democratic and free country and those who believe in the rule of law.

 

I am being honest with myself.  I do not despise Donkeykong because he is
black.  God is my witness.  Put Alan Keyes on the ballot and I will show you
how I vote with my ballot as well as with my money.  Mike Huckabee was the
only candidate I ever gave money to, and Alan Keyes will receive from me the
maximum amount of contribution.

 

When liberal commies like you have nothing else to defend the criminal
actions of Donkeykong, you resort to this race card.

 

No, I do not think Arnold Swartzenegger should have the right to run for
president.  He is not qualified, in the same way the Donkeykong is NOT
qualified.  So you think Donkeykong should not have to prove his Natural
Born Citizenship status?   why let's just use that Constitution as
toilet paper, shall we?

 

Sometimes, it just puzzles me how liberals think, and you've exemplified
this quintessential liberal philosophy with this post.

 

 

 

Jojo

 

 

PS.  I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new
Republican governor.  I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor
union, welfare mentality.  I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure
he wins re-election.

 

 

 

 

- Original Message - 

From:  mailto:orionwo...@charter.net OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson 

To:  mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com 

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:00 PM

Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
crazy

 

From Jojo

 

 Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake Birth

 Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long?

 

 Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. 

 You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with,

 using these one liners.

 

No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what
they do with their life after they are born that matters.

 

Would birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white?

 

Would any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of
Obama's birth certificate?

 

Pardon the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish
birthers would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It
is draining to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves
god fearing Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on
this matter

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Mark, by demonstrating a keen sense of fairness and objectivity in assessing 
the situation, you have just increased my respect for you.  And because of 
this, I will take your suggestion to heart.


Jojo


  - Original Message - 
  From: MarkI-ZeroPoint 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:30 AM
  Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  All,

  It was Steven that provoked this situation with his comments, albeit, 
apologetically delivered. 

   

  He has made similar derogatory comments before and I tend to just ignore 
them, however, his repeated instances of calling people of politically 
conservative viewpoint as racist is offensive, and typical of the far left.  
Political Correctness is being used to squelch political debate, and the fact 
that liberals are the ones who constantly invoke PC shows me that they want to 
squelch opposing viewpoints.  The fact that they can't see the hypocrisy in 
that is quite telling indeed.  The liberal media, and many of the outspoken 
liberal celebrities are some of the most hateful, hypocritical people I've seen.

   

  And I agree with DaveR, that,

  I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this 
unfortunate behavior 

   

  -Mark

   

  From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 7:41 AM
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy

   

  Jojo, please hold down the attacks upon others in the vortex.  You make many 
good points within your discussion, but this type of name calling and attacks 
tend to turn off some of us.

   

  Steven is a well respected member of the group that has a right to his 
opinions just as you.  I must admit that the suggestion that race is a major 
factor effecting your position is unwarranted and I hope will not be brought up 
again.

   

  I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this 
unfortunate behavior.

   

  Dave

  -Original Message-
  From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com
  To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
  Sent: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 9:56 am
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy

  Ah, playing the race card again.  I despise Donkeykong not because he's black 
but because he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America.  For your 
information, my favorite candidate was Alan Keyes not because he is black, but 
because of his strong conservative Christian Values.  Only liberals like you 
would be so naive to think that people vote based on the color of their skin.  
You liberals are the most racists people ever.

   

  Birthers are tizzy about Donkeykong's birth certificate because there is such 
a thing as the Constitution in this country.  The Constitution may not matter 
to you liberal commies, but it matters to Americans who love their democratic 
and free country and those who believe in the rule of law.

   

  I am being honest with myself.  I do not despise Donkeykong because he is 
black.  God is my witness.  Put Alan Keyes on the ballot and I will show you 
how I vote with my ballot as well as with my money.  Mike Huckabee was the only 
candidate I ever gave money to, and Alan Keyes will receive from me the maximum 
amount of contribution.

   

  When liberal commies like you have nothing else to defend the criminal 
actions of Donkeykong, you resort to this race card.

   

  No, I do not think Arnold Swartzenegger should have the right to run for 
president.  He is not qualified, in the same way the Donkeykong is NOT 
qualified.  So you think Donkeykong should not have to prove his Natural Born 
Citizenship status?   why let's just use that Constitution as toilet paper, 
shall we?

   

  Sometimes, it just puzzles me how liberals think, and you've exemplified this 
quintessential liberal philosophy with this post.

   

   

   

  Jojo

   

   

  PS.  I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new 
Republican governor.  I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor union, 
welfare mentality.  I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure he wins 
re-election.

   

   

   

   

- Original Message - 

From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson 

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:00 PM

Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy

 

From Jojo

 

 Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake Birth

 Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long?

 

 Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. 

 You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with,

 using these one liners.

 

No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's 
what they do with their life after

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Don't you consider SVJ calling me a bigot and
 racist an attack?  If you are a fair person, you would criticize him also.

I wasn't criticizing you.  I was merely pointing out that attacking
him personally is a violation of rules which can get you kicked out.
The bet was that you would get kicked out for posting on anti-Dawinian
views.  Because you have now violated a rule, you have fouled the bet
because being kicked out now could be 30% because you called someone
names.

I did not speak of Steven because I do not have a bet with him.

T

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Alan J Fletcher]

At 07:39 PM 8/6/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Jed,
Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why
the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so
long?
Once again, I find myself having to correct your
misinformation. You like taking pot shots and insult those you
disagree with, using these one liners.
Jojo

http://thefogbow.com/forum/index.php

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Harry Veeder]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Baloney, I said I would only reciprocate when attacked first; and that is
 exactly what I am doing.

 If you want attacks to stop, then call for moderation in this forum from the
 people who are most guilty.  Off-topic posts are destroying this forum; and
 believe me, I am the last person who wants that to happen.


 Jojo

The idea of evolution is very important and far reaching. It could
transform the conceptual foundations of ALL physics.


harry

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Harry Veeder]

How many years  until america elects a low income transgender muslim president?

harry

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Well, if I do not get banned for this for say a week, that would necessarily 
imply that this would not have been the reason for the banning.


If I was going to be banned for this, it should happen pretty soon.

Anyways my friend, I am prepared for us to have lunch on me whether I win or 
not.  The bet was just an excuse.



Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy




On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

Don't you consider SVJ calling me a bigot and
racist an attack?  If you are a fair person, you would criticize him 
also.


I wasn't criticizing you.  I was merely pointing out that attacking
him personally is a violation of rules which can get you kicked out.
The bet was that you would get kicked out for posting on anti-Dawinian
views.  Because you have now violated a rule, you have fouled the bet
because being kicked out now could be 30% because you called someone
names.

I did not speak of Steven because I do not have a bet with him.

T

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Alan, the link is interesting and if you are suggesting that I should take this 
Obama Ineligibility discussion there, I am not the one you should be concerned 
about.  Jed started this mess with a insult to Birthers.  My responses on this 
stops the minute no one else throws another insult or ridicule.


Jojo


  - Original Message - 
  From: Alan J Fletcher 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:50 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  At 07:39 PM 8/6/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:

Jed,
Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake Birth 
Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long?
Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation.  You like 
taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners.
Jojo

  http://thefogbow.com/forum/index.php

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Anyways my friend, I am prepared for us to have lunch on me whether I win or
 not.  The bet was just an excuse.

I went to the 57th Fighter today.  Had not been in weeks.  I enjoyed
an excellent spinach salad with pears, walnuts and shrimp.

If you ever make it to Atlanta, you will have expended enough and
lunch is my treat.

Regards,

Terry

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

I am aware of the hidden meaning of what you are saying here so don't think 
it went pass me.


Yes, you are right. Darwinian Evolution has very little to do with actual 
physics for which this forum is dedicated to.  But a Darwinian world view 
nonetheless has huge influences on how physicists interpret data.


To illustrate, let me bring up an example.  The interpretation of the 
meaning of the Red shift.  Red shift has always been taken to mean that 
far objects are receding from us.  This interpretation is a result of a 
Darwinian world view of a naturalistic process; for a universe that just 
came into being without a creator, (ie Big Bang, inflation, dark matter and 
dark energy).  This interpretation is in fact not the only one.


Another explanation is that of a change in the inherenct atomic processes 
that causes these red shifts.  Many have speculated that these same process 
are ZPE-based and is responsible for a whole range of anomalous observations 
like the apparent slowing down of the speed of light, the experimental 
divergence of the measured constants influencing the Planck length and the 
phenomena of Quantized Red Shifts.  A ZPE-based interpretation connotes a 
possibility of a creator upholding all things and manifesting itself as 
ZPE.  A mere change of world view is enough to influence a physicist on 
which explanation he might favor.


So, in fact, Darwinian paradigm has more influence in many fields of science 
than you presuppose.



Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 5:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy




On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

Baloney, I said I would only reciprocate when attacked first; and that is
exactly what I am doing.

If you want attacks to stop, then call for moderation in this forum from 
the
people who are most guilty.  Off-topic posts are destroying this forum; 
and

believe me, I am the last person who wants that to happen.


Jojo


The idea of evolution is very important and far reaching. It could
transform the conceptual foundations of ALL physics.


harry

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

LOL,  if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a big 
deal.


Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief.  He violated and trampled on the 
most basic law of our country.  Donkeykong is a criminal and should be 
removed, by force if necessary.



Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy



How many years  until america elects a low income transgender muslim 
president?


harry

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Harry Veeder]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:34 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
 LOL,  if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a big
 deal.

No faults.



 Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief.  He violated and trampled on the
 most basic law of our country.  Donkeykong is a criminal and should be
 removed, by force if necessary.


If I were American I would considered it nothing more than an
indiscretion. However, I bet almost every president has trampled on
the constitution
while in office.


harry



 - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 6:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are
 crazy


 How many years  until america elects a low income transgender muslim
 president?

 harry

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Daniel Rocha]

Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape, is a
bit racist?

2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

 LOL,  if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a
 big deal.

 Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief.  He violated and trampled on
 the most basic law of our country.  Donkeykong is a criminal and should be
 removed, by force if necessary.



 Jojo






-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be all over 
me and do their intimidation routine.  Donkey Kong is an ape.  I am calling him 
an ape, not a black person.  How can that be racist when ape is not a race.

Jojo

PS.  But based on the suggestion of one who I have growing respect for, I will 
not use Donkey Kong anymore.  From now on, I will refer to him as 
criminal-in-chief.  How's that?  Is that racist to criminals now?





  - Original Message - 
  From: Daniel Rocha 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape, is a 
bit racist? 


  2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

LOL,  if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a 
big deal.

Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief.  He violated and trampled on the 
most basic law of our country.  Donkeykong is a criminal and should be removed, 
by force if necessary.



Jojo









  -- 
  Daniel Rocha - RJ
  danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Daniel Rocha]

So, his name is no Barak Obama or similar? And you know the real name?

2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

 **
 I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be all
 over me and do their intimidation routine.






 - Original Message -
 *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we
 are crazy

 Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape, is
 a bit racist?

 2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

 LOL,  if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a
 big deal.

 Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief.  He violated and trampled on
 the most basic law of our country.  Donkeykong is a criminal and should be
 removed, by force if necessary.



 Jojo






 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Of course I know his real name.  He was naturalized as an Indonesian citizen as 
Barry Soetero.  The Indonesian government knows this as a fact but they are 
holding this over Criminal-in-chief's head to win concession from the American 
Government.  This is the danger of divided loyalties for a president.  The 
founding fathers wisely included the Natural Born provision exactly to prevent 
situations like this.


Jojo


  - Original Message - 
  From: Daniel Rocha 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  So, his name is no Barak Obama or similar? And you know the real name?


  2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be all 
over me and do their intimidation routine. 





  - Original Message - 
  From: Daniel Rocha 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape, is 
a bit racist? 


  2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

LOL,  if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such 
a big deal.

Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief.  He violated and trampled on 
the most basic law of our country.  Donkeykong is a criminal and should be 
removed, by force if necessary. 



Jojo









  -- 
  Daniel Rocha - RJ 
  danieldi...@gmail.com







  -- 
  Daniel Rocha - RJ
  danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Patrick Ellul]

http://factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/

In fact, the conspiracy would need to be even deeper than our colleagues
realized. In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama
instead found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu
Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961:

[image: Inline image 1]

Of course, it’s distantly possible that Obama’s grandparents may have
planted the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his
U.S. citizenship in order to run for president someday.


On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 Of course I know his real name.  He was naturalized as an Indonesian
 citizen as Barry Soetero.  The Indonesian government knows this as a fact
 but they are holding this over Criminal-in-chief's head to win concession
 from the American Government.  This is the danger of divided loyalties for
 a president.  The founding fathers wisely included the Natural Born
 provision exactly to prevent situations like this.


 Jojo



 - Original Message -
 *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:29 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we
 are crazy

 So, his name is no Barak Obama or similar? And you know the real name?

 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

 **
 I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be all
 over me and do their intimidation routine.






  - Original Message -
 *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
  *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we
 are crazy

  Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape,
 is a bit racist?

 2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

 LOL,  if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a
 big deal.

 Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief.  He violated and trampled on
 the most basic law of our country.  Donkeykong is a criminal and should be
 removed, by force if necessary.



 Jojo






 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com




 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com




-- 
Patrick

www.tRacePerfect.com
The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
The quickest puzzle ever!
image.jpeg

[Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jed Rothwell]

I do not mean to beat a dead horse, but mass media blather causes more harm
than you might realize. It destroys the credibility of researchers. The
problem is, professionals often read the mass media account and assume it
is an accurate report of what the researchers said. Take this latest
example:

. . . from the thousands of experiments performed over the last few
decades it seems that there are various reactions that output more energy
than is put into them . . .

Imagine you are a scientist or an engineer. You know nothing about cold
fusion. You have not read any papers. You read Gibbs, and you think to
yourself:

Those cold fusion 'researchers' must be a gang of idiots. They think that
getting more energy out than in proves the effect is nuclear?!? What
amateurs. They must be tin-foil helmeted high-school dropouts.

Mass media articles about technology sometimes have mix-ups such as
confusing power and energy (watts and watt-hours). An educated reader can
usually sort this out. She can recreate in her mind what the reporter
actually heard from the researcher. In this case, we know that Gibbs did
not hear anything. He made it up! No cold fusion researcher would say: we
are getting more out than we are putting in, so we know this is real.

Every article by Gibbs has mistakes like that, as do the ones in the
Scientific American. Anyone who believes Sci. Am. would surely dismiss cold
fusion:

http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?p=294

Needless to say, Wikipedia is a compendium of chaos, confusion, and lies.
When I last checked a few years ago, every substantive assertion in it was
incorrect. Most of them are about things like recombination that have been
circulating endlessly since 1989. Trying to kill these things off is like
trying to quell birther rumors that Obama was not born in Hawaii.

The mass media and Wikipedia is where people go first, these days. People
who go to these sources to learn about cold fusion will get the impression
that cold fusion scientists are lunatics. I know I would. That is why mass
media reports written by ignorant people are worse than no reports at all.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

Jed,

Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake Birth 
Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long?

Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation.  You like 
taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners.


Jojo



  - Original Message - 
  From: Jed Rothwell 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:23 AM
  Subject: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy


  Trying to kill these things off is like trying to quell birther rumors that 
Obama was not born in Hawaii.



  - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Daniel Rocha]

Jojo, are you serious? You seem to adopt only views of the
American conspiratorial right. You seem to play with the  stereotyped
red-neck, those we see in films and cartoons.

2012/8/6 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

 **
 Jed,

 Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake Birth
 Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long?



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Jojo Jaro]

It's no longer a conspiracy from the right when 70% of Americans feel he should 
present it, andobama himself refuses to release his birth certificate.  I 
talking about the real one, not the photoshoped version he's been parotting to 
gullible people like you and Jed.

Goodness, every American is required to present his real Birth Certificate for 
something as mundane as a Driver's License and yet Bambi thinks he is above the 
law and hides his, and you people think that is normal and give him a pass.  

Looks like you and Jed are more gullible and uninformed than I give you credit 
for.


Jojo


  - Original Message - 
  From: Daniel Rocha 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:59 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are 
crazy


  Jojo, are you serious? You seem to adopt only views of the American 
conspiratorial right. You seem to play with the  stereotyped red-neck, those we 
see in films and cartoons.


  2012/8/6 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com

Jed,

Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii.  If he was, why the fake Birth 
Certificate?  Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long?






  -- 
  Daniel Rocha - RJ
  danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy

[Axil Axil]

The solution to your frustrations is easy. In six months when the papp
engine is for sale on the market, we all here will contribute a nominal
amount to motivate the purchase of a Papp engine together with its
installation in your car by an auto customizer.

You are rich by your own admission and such things are possible for you.

You can then take Gibbs for a ride and let him make sure there is no gas
tank to be found in your new ride.

After his long drive with you, a time of bonding and joking and good
comradeship, if he still maintains his current position, then you will
certainly know his ulterior motives for who could possibly ignore such a
strong proof of concept.

Be patient, the time of reckoning for Gibbs grows short together with your
ultimate vindication.
Gibbs will then be forced to eat his words along with the many others who
will ride with you, so they all best stay hungry.


Cheers:   Axil




On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 I do not mean to beat a dead horse, but mass media blather causes more
 harm than you might realize. It destroys the credibility of researchers.
 The problem is, professionals often read the mass media account and assume
 it is an accurate report of what the researchers said. Take this latest
 example:

 . . . from the thousands of experiments performed over the last few
 decades it seems that there are various reactions that output more energy
 than is put into them . . .

 Imagine you are a scientist or an engineer. You know nothing about cold
 fusion. You have not read any papers. You read Gibbs, and you think to
 yourself:

 Those cold fusion 'researchers' must be a gang of idiots. They think that
 getting more energy out than in proves the effect is nuclear?!? What
 amateurs. They must be tin-foil helmeted high-school dropouts.

 Mass media articles about technology sometimes have mix-ups such as
 confusing power and energy (watts and watt-hours). An educated reader can
 usually sort this out. She can recreate in her mind what the reporter
 actually heard from the researcher. In this case, we know that Gibbs did
 not hear anything. He made it up! No cold fusion researcher would say: we
 are getting more out than we are putting in, so we know this is real.

 Every article by Gibbs has mistakes like that, as do the ones in the
 Scientific American. Anyone who believes Sci. Am. would surely dismiss cold
 fusion:

 http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?p=294

 Needless to say, Wikipedia is a compendium of chaos, confusion, and lies.
 When I last checked a few years ago, every substantive assertion in it was
 incorrect. Most of them are about things like recombination that have been
 circulating endlessly since 1989. Trying to kill these things off is like
 trying to quell birther rumors that Obama was not born in Hawaii.

 The mass media and Wikipedia is where people go first, these days. People
 who go to these sources to learn about cold fusion will get the impression
 that cold fusion scientists are lunatics. I know I would. That is why mass
 media reports written by ignorant people are worse than no reports at all.

 - Jed