RE: [WISPA] tv white spaces update and a question for you guys

[Brian Webster]

Ron,
    Where did this relevant paragraph come from? I like the mention of 
me but I can't take credit for it. I use the information from the FCC data, just 
happen to be pretty good at mapping the information. Most people could do a 
simple search channel by channel in the FCC database and get maps. This 
requirement should be easy to meet. I have said before that we should also be 
able to use the methods yet to be approved for 5.4 GHz stuff. If it's good 
enough not to broadcast over radar it should work for TV stations too. The idea 
of some FM or TV station sending some control signal scares me. That's like 
leaving the mouse in charge of the cheese factory. Who gets a say in what they 
put on that control channel. Spectrum sensing should be a no brainer and would 
work fine. It still irks the crap out of me that they worry about this anyway. 
So few people receive signals off the air that they won't notice any low power 
spread spectrum signals. Politics at least all these failed 
muni projects will force some spectrum policy though. It'll take a couple of 
years but it'll happen.
 
Thank You,
Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

  -Original Message-From: Ron Wallace 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 
  4:25 PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] tv 
  white spaces update and a question for you guys
  Here is the relevant paragraph.
   
  "The Notice proposed to require that fixed 
  unlicensed devices incorporate a geo-location method such as GPS or be 
  professionally installed, and that they access a database to identify vacant 
  channels at their location.  It proposed to require that portable 
  unlicensed devices operate only when they receive a control signal from a 
  source such as an FM or TV station that identifies the vacant TV channels in 
  that particular area.  The Commission also sought comment on the use of 
  spectrum sensing to identify vacant TV channels, but did not propose any 
  specific technical requirements for devices that use spectrum 
  sensing."
  The GPS requirement does not seem to present a 
  problem, for Fixed Wireless, many GPs devices cna be incorporated into any 
  PC.  As for a data base that exists and is available from Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] , 
  or could be accomodated to ID vacant channels at a given location.  If 
  this is all that is required the information is already 
available.
   
  For "Portable Unlicensed devices" the 
  requirement is more difficult, I admit.  But to run a test for fixed 
  unlicensed devices this should be much more straight forward.
   
  What do you guys think?
   Ron Wallace Hahnron, 
  Inc. 220 S. Jackson Dt. Addison, MI 49220 Phone: (517)547-8410 
  Mobile: (517)605-4542 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>-Original Message->From: 
  John Scrivner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 
  2006 01:17 PM>To: 'WISPA General List'>Subject: Re: [WISPA] tv 
  white spaces update and a question for you guys>>I would think a 
  better approach would be to work with Intel or another >company who is 
  already building prototypes to get a test system built >and have WISPs 
  become the operations portion of a test for this type of >technology. A 
  converted WiFi unit will not have any of the existing GPS >or sniffing 
  capabilities required in the NPRM. If we are going to become >part of 
  the solution then we need to have something capable of doing >what is 
  being asked in the NPRM.>Scriv>>>Marlon K. Schafer 
  (509) 982-2181 wrote:>>> Hi All,>>>> 
  http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1813A1.doc>>>> 
  Looks like we're still TWO years away from being able to use the white 
  >> spaces. In a month we'll see the first draft rules from the 
  FCC.>>>> It looks like what they want to do is to get some 
  testing data. I'd >> like to propose to them that we be allowed to 
  build a few test systems >> using 2.4 ghz to tv band converters. 
  Similar to the 2.4 to 900mhz >> converters.>>>> 
  I think it's important to have the support of WISPA on this, 
  officially.>>>> Thoughts?>> Marlon>> 
  (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales>> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage) Consulting 
  services>> 42846865 (icq) And I run my own wisp!>> 
  64.146.146.12 (net meeting)>> 
  www.odessaoffice.com/wireless>> 
  www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam>>>>>>>-- 
  >WISPA Wireless List: 
  wireless@wispa.org>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless>>Archives: 
  http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/> 
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RE: [WISPA] Ma Bell's About Face On Muni-WiFi

[Brian Webster]

Matt,
The cellular folks have been quietly improving their data network
capability. Their biggest problem to date was the T1 backhauls from the
tower sites. These were already loaded with voice traffic. In many markets
there are aggressive programs underway to replace all the T1's with licensed
microwave backhaul with much more bandwidth. Cellular has the advantage of
cleaner spectrum and lower noise floors. It has been proven that they can
deliver over the air rates necessary, once they fix the backhaul bottleneck
they will be serious competitors. Remember they also get to leverage their
already existing tower network. Sprint/Nextel even has the advantage of all
that 2.5 GHz spectrum they just announced their WIMAX plans for.
One of the major players for giving them wireless backhaul is FiberTower
who just merged with First Avenue Networks. This gives them instant access
to a lot of spectrum all over the US. While this may not be good news to
most of the folks on this list, there is an upside. The telcos are going to
lose a lot of business from them dropping those expensive $1200 per month T1
circuits to each and every tower site.that should effect some
numbers for those guys.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-Original Message-
From: Matt Larsen - Lists [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 12:44 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ma Bell's About Face On Muni-WiFi


Check back in with us in a year and let us know how that cell data card
is working.  If you thought the oversubscription on dialup lines was
bad, wait until more people get on the cellular data networks.  Talk
about something that will not scale when the data hits it - wow.

Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Brad Belton wrote:
> I wasn't going to pipe in on this topic, but George hit it square on the
> head: Cellular.
>
> Laptops are now available with built-in cellular data cards.  This trend
> will only continue as the cellular data rates continue to increase.  My
> Sprint data card pretty consistently pulls 500Kbps and can peak at nearly
> 1.5Mbps.  This is far better than many WiFi hotspots I have connected to
and
> certainly better than any Muni-WiFi system I've seen.
>
> Pure coverage alone will give the cellular networks a huge advantage over
> any muni system.  I can guarantee you the next laptop I buy will have a
> cellular data card built-in.  
>
> Best,
>
>
> Brad
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of George Rogato
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:07 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ma Bell's About Face On Muni-WiFi
>
> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>
>
>> My arguement is that the biggest prospective client for use of a mobile
>> network is the governement. If you give service to them free or without
>> financial contribution from them, its just plain stupid in my mind.
>>
>
>
> But what about cellular?
>
> Aren't they posed best to take advantage of mobile customers because
> they are all theirs anyways?
> Sprint just announced they will be doing mobile wimax. Verizon already
> has a decent nation wide high speed mobile internet access product that
> a lot of law enforcement are all ready using in the plice cars.
>
> And just this morning we heard  about 4g cellular delivering 100megs to
> the police car at 37 miles per hour.
>
> How does muni fit into the future that will be dominated by cellular?
>
>
> George
>
>
>

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RE: [WISPA] 900 mhz AMS system

[Brian Webster]

Chris,
    You might also consider band pass or notch filters on either your 
equipment or theirs or both. This usually can clean up any off channel 
interference but does come at a price in line losses. They are not cheap for 
good products either. Technically neither of you have protection against 
interference by the rules but obviously you are trying to do the smart thing and 
avoid problems. Try contacting the vendor of their equipment and preferably the 
ones who did their install and explain the situation. They may have run in to 
similar problems and have some options to try. Remember to smile to whole time 
and act friendly...:-)
 
Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com

  -Original Message-From: chris cooper 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 
  2:34 PMTo: 'WISPA General List'Subject: [WISPA] 900 mhz 
  AMS system
  
  A rural water district cuts 
  through the center of our network.  Their automatic meter reading system 
  operates on 916.5 at @ ½ db.  They are having problems reading meters 
  near one of our cells that sits 2 Mhz off them.  That was the only slot 
  available on that tower, so we cant really move without major 
  disruption.  Their system only works on 916.5  Has anyone had to 
  work through this?  If you have can you hit me offlist?  Im 
  interested in what compromise was worked out.
   
  Chris
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RE: [WISPA] Tower contract / Revenue Share / Discounted Services

[Brian Webster]

Title: Tower contract / Revenue Share / Discounted Services



Johnny,
    If you can get away from the revenue share try to. If they want in 
on the action maybe set up a flat rate per customer added to that site. The 
reason for this would be that if you need to increase your ARPU you can raise 
the price and not have an increased expense for doing so, your expense to the 
tower owner stays the same. In my cellular days the carriers would never do 
a revenue share with landowners or tower owners. When it was a sticking point in 
the negotiations it could be overcome most times by finding some point (in this 
case per customer) to increase the payment on a more fixed rate. If you were to 
ever try and sell your business this puts you in a much more favorable position 
than having revenue sharing. Revenue sharing creates a situation where you might 
have to open your books to this landowner so he can audit to see if he is 
getting his proper payments, whereas all you need to do for a per customer rate 
is do a dump from something like your Radius server or the access point itself 
to have all the accounting information necessary. Just an idea and a useless one 
if you have already committed to this deal.
 
Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com

  -Original Message-From: JohnnyO 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 12:03 
  PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: [WISPA] Tower contract 
  / Revenue Share / Discounted Services
  Have a company that is paying us to install a tower 
  at their location so we they can receive our internet services. What we 
  negotiated was - they pay for ALL costs including backhaul, 3 2.4ghz sectors, 
  tower costs / installation costs.
  We get exclusive rights to the tower. They get 20% 
  revenue share from any customers being served directly off of the tower, and 
  they receive 50% off of their monthly service fees.
  Does anyone have a contract that would cover part 
  or all of what was stated ? 
  Regards, 
  JohnnyO 
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RE: [WISPA] Web site update

[Brian Webster]

Matt,
Great job. Would it be a good idea to put WISPA's mission statement on 
the
site? I read what was up there but it does not clearly state for a
prospective new member what the missions and goals of the organization are
or will be.



Thank You,
Brian Webster

-Original Message-
From: George Rogato [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 4:48 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Web site update


Thank you Matt Larsen for your hard work.
http://www.wispa.org/

George

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RE: [WISPA] DC Inverter help

[Brian Webster]

Mac,
Understood, volts is volts and need respect :-). Might think about 
doing it
with some sort of switches or fuses on the external lines to allow you to
change batteries safely and without having to take all of them off line at
any one time. With fuses at the right rating they would pop if there were a
short like you mention and maybe avoid problems, although that is just one
more thing for a service call too.



Brian


-Original Message-
From: Mac Dearman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 11:15 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] DC Inverter help


Brian,

  I guess I am an idiot because I hadn't thought of that! I don't have any
(hardly) of my APC UPS's overloaded and it would probably be pretty easy to
do that. I bought some rack mount Compaq 3000Watt UPS's for the NOC and tied
4 Gel Cell 100lb batteries to each of those Compaq's. That has been working
like a charm, but it scares the fire out of me to mess around them. While
connecting them I managed to arc the wires and that produced a ball of fire
that was bigger than I was! I later found out those 4 12VDC batteries in a
series (48VDC) produces more than enough DC voltage to knock your guts out
while it blows the bottom of your feet off.

 Sorry for that story - but it may keep some of us from "leaving here early"

Mac



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 10:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] DC Inverter help

Mac,
Can you tap in to the battery lines on the UPS and add extra
external
batteries to extend the run time? This would give you the advantage of
conditioned power and automatic switch over of the UPS, and you would still
have any other management features of the UPS still available to you. Just
an idea to consider.



Thank You,
Brian Webster

-Original Message-
From: Mac Dearman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 10:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] DC Inverter help



Can anyone give me a lead as to what I am looking for? I believe this
http://tinyurl.com/lje7s is what I need, but I don't think I need 400Watts
as all I will be pulling at several new tower sites are a few RB532's with
their radios. I think I ought to keep the RB532s powered at 48VDC as they
will be in excess of 200' up a tower. My intentions are to put a couple
Marine batteries in an enclosure for back up power and have the DC inverter
to keep them charged and have a seamless transfer if a power outage comes
along. I have been putting these big honking APC UPSs in all my enclosures,
but am trying to get something that will last longer in times of outages

Any help would surely be a appreciated.

Thanks folks,
Mac


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RE: [WISPA] DC Inverter help

[Brian Webster]

Mac,
Can you tap in to the battery lines on the UPS and add extra external
batteries to extend the run time? This would give you the advantage of
conditioned power and automatic switch over of the UPS, and you would still
have any other management features of the UPS still available to you. Just
an idea to consider.



Thank You,
Brian Webster

-Original Message-
From: Mac Dearman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 10:35 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] DC Inverter help



Can anyone give me a lead as to what I am looking for? I believe this
http://tinyurl.com/lje7s is what I need, but I don't think I need 400Watts
as all I will be pulling at several new tower sites are a few RB532's with
their radios. I think I ought to keep the RB532s powered at 48VDC as they
will be in excess of 200' up a tower. My intentions are to put a couple
Marine batteries in an enclosure for back up power and have the DC inverter
to keep them charged and have a seamless transfer if a power outage comes
along. I have been putting these big honking APC UPSs in all my enclosures,
but am trying to get something that will last longer in times of outages

Any help would surely be a appreciated.

Thanks folks,
Mac


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RE: More on Clearwire - Intel & Moto invest $900MillionRe: [WISPA]Clearwire is coming to my area. (eek?)

[Brian Webster]

Well said Tom,
Having watched the cellular and PCS industry grow over the years, vendor
financing/investing was the only way these networks could have been built
out as fast as they were. Being based on a technology that was not specific
to any one manufacturer was a key in those network build outs. WIMAX may be
able to offer those same benefits once it becomes available in the
unlicensed spectrum, although I would guess the manufacturers would be more
apt to do what you say once a more protected spectrum becomes available. I
also agree with your statement that when the manufacturer is the investor
all they want to do is sell equipment, not get you over a barrel and then
take your company away from you in the way most venture capital outfits
would. I can see you've been around that block once or twice :-)



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-Original Message-
From: Tom DeReggi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: More on Clearwire - Intel & Moto invest $900MillionRe:
[WISPA]Clearwire is coming to my area. (eek?)


I'm referring to I use Trango Broadband for 95% of my network.
I believe it is the best choice for long term survivabilty of an independant
WISP.
I stand behind that decission today as the best decission that I could have
made for my situation.

However, there were trade offs in making that decssion. One was it
illiminated every manufacturer other than Trango the from being a potential
manufacturer investor that would have senergy to invest in us. Wimax on the
other hand has 100s of manufacturers that potentially could be investors as
well as suppliers in early stage large scale projects, based on jump
starting and proving their early production runs or technkowlegy embeeded
with products used.  Historically, Manufacturers have been key investors.
For example Cisco in Cogent.  Or I can refer to an initiative a year or two
back where Redline's investors had been considering investment in WISP
providers that used Redline equipment.  Supporting one company (WISP) also
strengthens other investments (in manufacturer's product).  Motorola has
numerous attempts to partner with major initative, often in investment, as
lsited in the Clearwire press release.  Or a company like TelkoNet that
leases to WISPs to help financially and not only techknowlgy solutions.
WISPs that are serious about growing large, need to consider these things,
as they must have a finance strategy long term to handle their growth when
that time comes or the growth won't occur.

If I expand this conversation to my business specifically... There have been
many offers to just buy my company out and take over. But  I won't get the
ROI that I'm looking for if I were to do that, because my company is still
in an early investment stage. Instead what I want is someone to share the
investment burden, so I don't have to take it on all alone. For me
investment in my business is the lease risky thing I can do, I have control
and confindense in things that I can control. However, ISP investors or
consolidators (one of the typical investment sources) think differently.
They'd rather take over, so they have control and maximum return, than share
the burden of investment or compensate adequately for others investment.
Manufacturer investors are potentially good investment partners because they
are not providers and rarely have expertise to take over, and look to invest
in companies that already have successful strategies and staff in place to
succeed.

Clearwire is a much different thing where they can be publically traded,
apposed to small WISPs that are far from the large scale value that large
manufacturers look for before investing.  But companies grow, and sooner or
later many WISPs will reach the scale of the Nextweb and Clearwires to
attract major investors.

I'd argue that Wimax's biggest value is not technical, its strategic,
because the number of players that enter the game and have synergies to
partner with vastly grows, and financial/funding options vastly grow with
it.

If I were a WISP I would not be holding my breath for a manufactirer
investor to come, I'm jsut saying its one strategic option to consider that
could exist.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "Peter R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: More on Clearwire - Intel & Moto invest $900 MillionRe:
[WISPA]Clearwire is coming to my area. (eek?)


> What would be the Proprietary Platform?
>
> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>
>> I'll say thats one disadvantage of buying into a proprietary platform,
>> you loose out on investment funds from hardware manufacturers.
>>
>&

RE: [WISPA] Join WISPA?

[Brian Webster]

Butch,
I was told as an associate member I could not be a member of the members
only list. Let me know if you hear different.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-Original Message-
From: Butch Evans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:14 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Join WISPA?


On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

>There is a members only list that is much more structured and isn't
>open to just anyone

Is that list open only to Principal members?  I am only an associate
member.  Do I qualify for that list?  Inquiring minds...

--
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(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] merchant accounts/credit cards

[Brian Webster]

I use PayPal and am very happy. I do not have a terminal and do not need to
swipe cards from here. Their rates for non-eBay items seem to be in line
with others. I have full control over my account and even have a Master Card
debit card from them. Simple and painless and I don't have to maintain any
secure web sites to accept payment. Your needs may be different. Oh and by
the way people do not have to be PayPal members to post payments.



Thank You,
Brian Webster

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 3:40 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] merchant accounts/credit cards


Can anybody suggest any good vendors for a merchant account and card
processing
terminal?

Thanks


Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201
1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [WISPA] Re: [TowerTalk] [WISPA FCC] OT??? High power 2.4 GHz ruleschange

[Brian Webster]

John,
I'm not sure if this guys comments were meant to be that of a 
threatening
nature. If someone is using the moon as a passive reflector, they may very
well be aiming at the horizon with a set of antennas using steerable
tracking gear for their antennas. The idea would be that you start using the
moon like you would a tracking system for a moving satellite. At moon rise
and set you would be aimed at or near the horizon with a lot of power. I'm
just pointing out the technical aspect of this, I'm not on the tower talk
list and did not see the whole thread to get the tone of the conversation.
This type of system is typical for hams who operate either satellite comms
or moon bounce. They do this to allow maximum time for communications. While
it would be possible to intentionally use this to harm WISP's it is also
possible that it could happen by chance.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-Original Message-
From: John Scrivner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 1:11 PM
To: Dan Hammill
Cc: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Re: [TowerTalk] [WISPA FCC] OT??? High power 2.4 GHz
ruleschange



Dan Hammill wrote:

>John,
>
>Thank you for your sentiments towards hams.
>
>
I meant what I said though I may have had it wrong after some of the
replies I am seeing from this group.

Dan  KB5MY said:

>if I run legal limit into my 24-foot
>dish, aim at the moon on the horizon, and some unlicensed ISP happens to
lie
>in-between, I guarantee that the ISP will lose, regardless of how much
power
>he/she may be running.
>
>
I have been using the list servers here as an opportunity to share my
thoughts on perspectives and see how best to proceed for everyone's best
interest. Marlon has done the same. Quite frankly I am surprised that
the bully tactics you describe would be even put into print. I have
always thought Hams were basically all above such thinking. I have no
intentions of turning this into a holy war. I know my place. Thank you
for pointing it out though with the end of your gun.
Good bye,
John Scrivner

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RE: [WISPA] Spectrum Analyzer

[Brian Webster]

You can buy Canopy units and use the spectrum analyzer feature. That has the
drawback of the directivity of the antenna pattern but it's also able to be
run remotely. Install it with a TV antenna rotor and control all of it from
the ground from a laptop. For use in the unlicensed spectrum this is a cheap
way to have a spectrum analyzer that does what you need. I think you might
also be able to do the same thing with Trango gear.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-Original Message-
From: Jory Privett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 3:00 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Spectrum Analyzer


Can someone recommend a fairly simple spectrum analyzer  that will do 2.4
and 5.8. I need something that is portable and not to complicated to use.

Jory Privett
WCCS


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[WISPA] AOL offering wireless internet over Clearwires network

[Brian Webster]

Well it's starting, and at $26 per month too. Let's hope this might actually
help the WISP industry by being able to partner as a Group with AOL and
offer the same wholesale deal in markets where Clearwire does not offer
service or may not have any license. But that would still require everyone
getting together as a whole (because AOL would not deal with each one
individually) and also developing a national database/mapping coverage
footprint. Just an idea, it appears they are going to do it without the WISP
industry anyway now. Sure would be nice to leverage a huge marketing engine
like AOL or MSN without having to bear the expense.

http://www.rcrnews.com/news.cms?newsId=26292


Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com

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RE: [WISPA] Navini Networks, was no subject

[Brian Webster]

Took the words right out of my mouth, great receiver specs do nothing in
high noise environments. The idea of indoor CPE devices is also a myth for
real world WISP deployments. How many times have you had to move around in a
building with a cell phone to get better coverage. Indoor CPE is the same
but most people won't understand that and won't want to move their computer.
Higher power is not the answer because you still need the balanced path in
both directions, the FCC will not let you put high power radios at the CPE
end when it is sitting right next to the users body.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-Original Message-
From: Charles Wu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 4:55 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Navini Networks, was no subject


Systems work differently when operating under licensed vs. unlicensed bands

That said, no amount of "fancing beamforming" or signal processing or even
complex QAM modulation will bust through that -70ish noise floor

-Charles

---
CWLab
Technology Architects
http://www.cwlab.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 10:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Navini Networks, was no subject


Hi Ron
I don't know much except what has come across these list since the stuff
came out.
I seem to recall a couple of wisps saying they've installed them and
being successful. I don't recall that they were very fast at all.

Some of the municipalities have deployed them, I think maybe Portland
Oregon and Seattle Washington have them.

And I think it was relatively expensive, Think I heard like 30-60k or
more per pop. Big wind loaded multiple panel antennas of size and
expensive omni's

George

Ron Wallace wrote:
> George,
>
> What do you know about them?
>
>  >-Original Message-
>  >From: George Rogato [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2006 11:29 PM
>  >To: 'WISPA General List'
>  >Subject: Re: [WISPA] (no subject)
>  >
>  >Ron Wallace wrote:
>  >> To All,
>  >>
>  >> Any one know anthing about Navini Networks and all their claims?
> sounds  >> too good to be true.  >>
>  >> Ron Wallace
>  >>
>  >
>  >I'd like to know as well how it performs and their success rate. It's
>  >been out awhile now.
>  >
>  >I do know that Navini and Vivato were supposed to be revolutionary
>  >products using smart antennas and direction beam forming techniques to
>  >overcome nlos and reach in deeper to the customer.
>  >They get to use more power than a normal PtMP unlicensed system.
>  >Vivato didn't make it: http://www.vivato.com/ VIVATO ANNOUNCES WIND DOWN
>  >PLANS.
>  >
>  >George
>  >
>  >
>  >--
>  >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>  >
>  >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>  >
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>  >
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RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

[Brian Webster]

Matt,
I make that assumption based on the node density that some of these
networks are being designed for to accommodate the little or no gain
available on the antenna systems of the user unit laptops and PDA's. The
people who are trumping up these networks are trying to lull the people with
money in to thinking they can build a seamless network. To do this they spec
the systems for high node density to keep the signal level up down on the
ground for the users. When they locate them on light poles on the same
streets they certainly will have many situations where other nodes will have
a lot of strong signal visible to them from neighboring nodes. When you look
at a coverage footprint for a node when you have to assume the specs from a
laptop unit you clearly see that it does not cover much area, IT mentality
says, just put more nodes up then. Tropos nodes do have attenuation between
them but with each node using an antenna with gain they don't have the
attenuation "between nodes" that the network was designed for.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-Original Message-
From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 1:58 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes


You make the assumption that the Tropos nodes have little to no
attenuation between them, which is a poor assumption. A useful exercise
is to drive around and make a list of Metrocom nodes. You'll find that a
very small percentage have LOS or even near-LOS to each other. Metrocom
certainly was able to provide ubiquitous coverage long before the muni
Wi-Fi was all the rage. Where was your physics then?

-Matt

Brian Webster wrote:

>HP likes to design these Tropos networks by never having more than 2 hops
>before it gets put on some sort of backhaul. This in theory works well but
>in reality, you still run out of 2.4 GHz channels to place the access nodes
>on. Remember each radio/mesh unit is at the same height as every other one
>thus firing their signal directly in to the antenna of all neighboring
>nodes. The users may not see the noise but node to node traffic certainly
>hears it. When the mesh radio is deaf because of noise, the network just
>plain fails to work. End of story. Mesh will simply not work on a loaded
>residential user based system without a lot more spectrum. People are
trying
>to fight the laws of physics. Ask any ham radio guy about this. When they
>originally built packet radio networks back in the early 90's, they found
>you needed separate channels to make it work (and that was only 1200 baud).
>San Francisco, Philly and any other muni network are going to fail based on
>this problem. The idea and premise of a muni network is solid based on the
>points Matt Larsen brought up but as Jack and others have stated, they have
>been sold on all of the positive benefits but never get told the
>limitations. The typical IT mentality is that they can throw more money at
>the problem to increase capacity. This is simply not true based on the
>limited number of useable channels. Sad thing is there will be a lot of
>taxpayer money wasted to prove this point.
>
>
>
>Thank You,
>Brian Webster
>www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Jack Unger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 1:22 PM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes
>
>
>Dawn,
>
>Thanks for posting the St. Cloud PepLink and HP info.
>
>Using standard CPE (PePLink)is very good but using Tropos nodes is very,
>very bad. Very bad because they only have one single 2.4 GHz radio so
>after 2 or 3 hops, all the throughput capability is gone not to mention
>that the interference level from having all the access and backhaul
>packets colliding on 2.4 GHz (along with any WISP and other 2.4 GHz
>network packets) will slow all the networks (muni and WISP) down
>further. I hate to "finger" anyone but Tropos' stubborn refusal or
>inability (anyone at Tropos listening???) to produce a 2-band mesh node
>is going to doom them to failure along with any big city that deploys
>their nodes without an extremely efficient point-to-multipoint backbone
>design on 5 GHz.
>
>jack
>
>
>Dawn DiPietro wrote:
>
>
>
>>http://www.peplink.com/060306.php
>>
>>Date: March 7, 2006*
>>PePLink announces as the official Citywide Wireless CPE provider for
>>City of St. Cloud in Florida  *
>>
>>*Hong Kong, Mar 7, 2006 - *PePLink, a leader in citywide WiFi wireless
>>broadband devices today announced the City of St. Cloud, FL, a suburb of
>>Orlando, has chosen PePLink

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

[Brian Webster]

Joe,
I agree with you there and for many people that would be just fine, but 
the
average consumer is going to expect these wi-fi muni networks to perform
like DSL and Cable broadband does. The municipalities are expecting the same
thing. You and I know they will never be able to achieve this.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-Original Message-
From: Joe Laura [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 2:01 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes


So to sum it up IMO physics and limited spectrum makes a muni system
impossible to get the coverage they expect. Dont get me wrong, ups just
dropped off a mag mount friday to me that I am installing on the van
tomorrow. Even if I have to drive 3 blocks or so to connect and pull mail or
peek at my intermapper will be a plus. Joe
- Original Message -
From: "Brian Webster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes


> HP likes to design these Tropos networks by never having more than 2 hops
> before it gets put on some sort of backhaul. This in theory works well but
> in reality, you still run out of 2.4 GHz channels to place the access
nodes
> on. Remember each radio/mesh unit is at the same height as every other one
> thus firing their signal directly in to the antenna of all neighboring
> nodes. The users may not see the noise but node to node traffic certainly
> hears it. When the mesh radio is deaf because of noise, the network just
> plain fails to work. End of story. Mesh will simply not work on a loaded
> residential user based system without a lot more spectrum. People are
trying
> to fight the laws of physics. Ask any ham radio guy about this. When they
> originally built packet radio networks back in the early 90's, they found
> you needed separate channels to make it work (and that was only 1200
baud).
> San Francisco, Philly and any other muni network are going to fail based
on
> this problem. The idea and premise of a muni network is solid based on the
> points Matt Larsen brought up but as Jack and others have stated, they
have
> been sold on all of the positive benefits but never get told the
> limitations. The typical IT mentality is that they can throw more money at
> the problem to increase capacity. This is simply not true based on the
> limited number of useable channels. Sad thing is there will be a lot of
> taxpayer money wasted to prove this point.
>
>
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
> www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jack Unger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 1:22 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes
>
>
> Dawn,
>
> Thanks for posting the St. Cloud PepLink and HP info.
>
> Using standard CPE (PePLink)is very good but using Tropos nodes is very,
> very bad. Very bad because they only have one single 2.4 GHz radio so
> after 2 or 3 hops, all the throughput capability is gone not to mention
> that the interference level from having all the access and backhaul
> packets colliding on 2.4 GHz (along with any WISP and other 2.4 GHz
> network packets) will slow all the networks (muni and WISP) down
> further. I hate to "finger" anyone but Tropos' stubborn refusal or
> inability (anyone at Tropos listening???) to produce a 2-band mesh node
> is going to doom them to failure along with any big city that deploys
> their nodes without an extremely efficient point-to-multipoint backbone
> design on 5 GHz.
>
> jack
>
>
> Dawn DiPietro wrote:
>
> > http://www.peplink.com/060306.php
> >
> > Date: March 7, 2006*
> > PePLink announces as the official Citywide Wireless CPE provider for
> > City of St. Cloud in Florida  *
> >
> > *Hong Kong, Mar 7, 2006 - *PePLink, a leader in citywide WiFi wireless
> > broadband devices today announced the City of St. Cloud, FL, a suburb of
> > Orlando, has chosen PePLink to be the official wireless CPE provider for
> > the Cyber Spot, the City's 100% free citywide high-speed wireless
> > Internet service.
> >
> > With a reliable, secure, ease of use wireless CPE - PePLink Surf, every
> > citizen or business in the city of St. Cloud can connect to the citywide
> > wireless network at a high speed. The CPE greatly enhances the
> > throughput and reliability of both up and down link compared with a
> > wireless-enabled computer desktop or notebook computer.
> >
> > The simple true plu

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

[Brian Webster]

HP likes to design these Tropos networks by never having more than 2 hops
before it gets put on some sort of backhaul. This in theory works well but
in reality, you still run out of 2.4 GHz channels to place the access nodes
on. Remember each radio/mesh unit is at the same height as every other one
thus firing their signal directly in to the antenna of all neighboring
nodes. The users may not see the noise but node to node traffic certainly
hears it. When the mesh radio is deaf because of noise, the network just
plain fails to work. End of story. Mesh will simply not work on a loaded
residential user based system without a lot more spectrum. People are trying
to fight the laws of physics. Ask any ham radio guy about this. When they
originally built packet radio networks back in the early 90's, they found
you needed separate channels to make it work (and that was only 1200 baud).
San Francisco, Philly and any other muni network are going to fail based on
this problem. The idea and premise of a muni network is solid based on the
points Matt Larsen brought up but as Jack and others have stated, they have
been sold on all of the positive benefits but never get told the
limitations. The typical IT mentality is that they can throw more money at
the problem to increase capacity. This is simply not true based on the
limited number of useable channels. Sad thing is there will be a lot of
taxpayer money wasted to prove this point.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-Original Message-
From: Jack Unger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 1:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes


Dawn,

Thanks for posting the St. Cloud PepLink and HP info.

Using standard CPE (PePLink)is very good but using Tropos nodes is very,
very bad. Very bad because they only have one single 2.4 GHz radio so
after 2 or 3 hops, all the throughput capability is gone not to mention
that the interference level from having all the access and backhaul
packets colliding on 2.4 GHz (along with any WISP and other 2.4 GHz
network packets) will slow all the networks (muni and WISP) down
further. I hate to "finger" anyone but Tropos' stubborn refusal or
inability (anyone at Tropos listening???) to produce a 2-band mesh node
is going to doom them to failure along with any big city that deploys
their nodes without an extremely efficient point-to-multipoint backbone
design on 5 GHz.

jack


Dawn DiPietro wrote:

> http://www.peplink.com/060306.php
>
> Date: March 7, 2006*
> PePLink announces as the official Citywide Wireless CPE provider for
> City of St. Cloud in Florida  *
>
> *Hong Kong, Mar 7, 2006 - *PePLink, a leader in citywide WiFi wireless
> broadband devices today announced the City of St. Cloud, FL, a suburb of
> Orlando, has chosen PePLink to be the official wireless CPE provider for
> the Cyber Spot, the City's 100% free citywide high-speed wireless
> Internet service.
>
> With a reliable, secure, ease of use wireless CPE - PePLink Surf, every
> citizen or business in the city of St. Cloud can connect to the citywide
> wireless network at a high speed. The CPE greatly enhances the
> throughput and reliability of both up and down link compared with a
> wireless-enabled computer desktop or notebook computer.
>
> The simple true plug and play nature of the PePLink Surf helps the
> citizens in St. Cloud to bring the wireless signal indoors with ease. At
> the same time, the PePLink Surf units can be remotely managed, monitored
> and provisioned by PePLink's carrier-grade management and reporting
> solution, PCMS (or PePLink Centralized Management System). This can
> ensure a scalable and rapid rollout of the wireless systems within a
> short period of time. This eliminates an onsite installation charge.
>
> "Being chosen by City of St. Cloud has further endorsed our capability
> to offer reliable wireless solutions to municipal wireless networks
> built with mesh network technology," said Alex Chan, Managing Director
> of PePLink. "PePLink Surf together with PCMS is the complete solution
> specifically designed for today's citywide wireless networks."
>
> PePLink Surf series consists of Surf 200BG and Surf 400BG. For more
> information on PePLink Surf series, please visit http://www.peplink.com
> <http://www.peplink.com/>.
>
>
>
>
> Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
>
>> roflol
>>
>> The city is selling "signal boosters" (I read that as amps) to anyone
>> that wants them for $170?
>>
>> Oh man, this deployment is gonna come CRASHING down.  Hard.
>>
>> It's really too bad these people are too ignorant, stubborn or just
>> plain stupid to call any of us in to he

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

[Brian Webster]

Amen brother Matt! Excellent points and most of the reality of the muni
systems.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-Original Message-
From: Matt Larsen - Lists [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 12:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes


George,

Unfortunately, every time that the public hears about problems with a
wifi network (muni or otherwise) it is going to reflect badly on all of
us.  After reading the article, it is pretty clear that the writer
picked out one sorehead and blew his problems up into something big.
The Bells want the Muni-Broadband efforts to fail badly, and they have
the added side benefit of making WISPs look bad in the process.

After having an opportunity to visit with Esme Vos of muniwireless.org
and several other community wireless advocates at the Freedom to Connect
conference, it is pretty clear that we should be embracing
muniwireless.  They need us badly - specifically our real-world
experience and in the field capability.  Many of the munis are being fed
a long line of bs from vendors and stories like this one out of St.
Cloud are going to be trumpeted as examples of muniwireless failure -
when the real failure is that govt officials and the citizens were given
unrealistic expectations.

Here are some of my responses to the common criticisms of muniwireless

1)  FREE service in my city is going to put me out of business
Response:  Not true.  Most of the FREE services are very low speed
connections (sub 256K) or are filled with non-bypassable  advertising.
Plus, there is no quality of service guarantee for a free service and
nonexistent tech support.There is plenty of opportunity to offer a
higher quality service that people are willing to pay for.   Don't
forget that most of the people who go for the FREE service are folks
that wouldn't pay for service anyway.  If they become users and want a
better level of service, there is a good chance that they will become
paying customers at some point in the future.

2)  Government money should not be used to compete with private industry
Response:  In most applications, muniwireless efforts are being explored
by the governmental entity to SAVE money.  If a muni can put in a
network for a cost of $100,000, but will save $60,000/year through
reduced telephone/cellphone/leased line expenses, then that is a big
WIN/WIN situation for everyone involved except the telcos.  Local
government spending generates a huge amount of revenue for the phone
companies.  Doesn't it make more sense for the city to put in its own
infrastructure and manage it locally than to spend it with
telcos/cellcos?  Savings from telecom revenue are only one of the many
ways that muni networks can generate substantial savings.  Decreased
labor, increased operational efficiency and many other benefits come
from muni networks.

3)  Municipal wireless networks duplicate efforts made my local WISPs
Response:  After talking to a lot of muniwireless people, the issue is
that munis would PREFER to work with a local WISP or ISP operator to get
their network going, but WISPs do such a poor job of promoting
themselves that most munis have no idea that there is someone operating
in their area.   Introduce yourself to the IT person in every town where
you provide service - do not give them an excuse for ignorance.  We are
generally more local than any other company that they will deal with,
and we have tons of practical experience and the ability to demo our
capabilities.   We should be exploiting these advantages to the highest
possible degree.  It will require you to become a participant in your
local government, but that is the best way to get what you want.

Every WISPA member should be watching their area diligently for
muniwireless opportunities in their area, and working hard to get in on
the ground floor.  I have done cooperative projects in ten towns in my
service area and all have been WIN/WIN for me and for the cities.   At
last check, these cites combined are saving $4000 a month over what they
were paying the telcos for the same or inferior level of service.  My
goal is to be taking $30,000/month out of the pockets of the local
telcos (Qwest and Embarq) within the next two years.  Just imagine what
kind of an impact muni networks would have on the telcos if  1
communities pulled an average of $1000 a month out of telcos and put it
into local infrastructure?   That is $1 million a month out of telco
coffers and into local economies.  What if the average savings was $5000
a month and 2 communities developed their own networks?   Even the
telcos will notice $10 million a month in declining revenues.  More
importantly, the influx into the local economy of that money (instead of
having it sucked out by the telco vampire) will make a big difference at
the local level.

WISPs should be taking a proac

RE: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes

[Brian Webster]

Jack,
I hate to say it but didn't we say I told you so There is just 
not
enough spectrum to design networks like this to work with anything but
dedicated CPE devices with outdoor antennas. Simply flooding an area with
more signal to let laptops inside a house work will not solve the problem.
It just creates more noise on already maxed out spectrum. I really wish the
vendors and project stalwarts would admit this is a problem with these
networks and not gloss it over. Self interference and outside interference
are always going to be huge problems in these muni-networks. Everyone trying
to build on the fact that off the shelf consumer devices can access this
network will be the downfall. Wi-fi was never designed for a massive outdoor
deployment such as this and when you try to make up for the fact that you do
not have control over the CPE when it comes to proper RF planning you are
doomed to failure. Just my 2 cents.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>


-Original Message-
From: Jack Unger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:29 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Pioneering Wi-Fi City Sees Startup Woes


Unfortunately, this may be one of the first of many such muni problems
that I've been forcasting for years. Muni wireless can be done correctly
and WISPs (IMHO) should always try (when allowed) to play a positive
role in proper network design and operation however most muni networks
are incorrectly designed by people with limited wireless experience
(yes, that even includes some mesh network vendors) which will lead to
network failure, waste of taxpayer money, and possible loss of jobs on
the part of the city IT folks (not to mention the elected officials) who
backed the networks without first learning about how wireless technology
really works.
   jack

George wrote:
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060424/ap_on_hi_te/muni_wi_fi_hiccups
>
> I am not a fan of muni wireless.
>
> George

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Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
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RE: [WISPA] Is this real? More unlicensed bands?

[Brian Webster]

John,
Just off the top of my head this may be for RFID type devices looking at
the description of the services that might use it. I think I recall some
activity a while ago trying to increase the power levels for RFID systems.
The collision avoidance systems they speak of may be back-up types for large
vehicles and or smart highway/car systems. Just a thought.



Thank You,
Brian Webster

-Original Message-
From: John Scrivner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 6:27 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Is this real? More unlicensed bands?


I cannot believe I have never read about this before. Is it an April
Fool's joke? According to the sources I have seen this was released a
couple of years back. Can anyone confirm or deny the validity of this
information? Does anyone have a link that leads to a description of
exactly what can and cannot be done with these bands if it is real? I
know it is indicating UWB but this does not appear to be the only thing
it is limited to i I am reading this right.
Many thanks,
Scriv

 From December 24, 2004:

* FCC Permits New Unlicensed UWB Devices*
* ** *The FCC adopted new rules to permit unlicensed wideband devices in
the 6 GHz, 17 GHz and 24 GHz bands. Specifically, the FCC amended its
rules for general Part 15 unlicensed operations that use wide bandwidths
but are not classified as UWB devices under its rules. It increased the
peak power limits and reduced the unwanted emission levels for 3
frequency bands that were already available for unlicensed operation:
5925-7250 MHz, 16.2-17.2 GHz, and 23.12-29 GHz, and indicated that
higher peak power limits in these bands would facilitate wideband
operations such as short range communications, collision avoidance,
inventory control and tracking systems. The Commission also amended its
measurement procedures to permit frequency hopped, swept frequency, and
gated systems operating within these bands to be measured in their
normal operating mode.

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RE: [WISPA] Adzilla & Revenue Streams -- Amen

[Brian Webster]

Amen Brother Tom! We'll get you to stand up with brother Matt Larsen at
the next tent revival. You had me in stitches on the floor about being the
one to be every other persons risk taker, been there done that. Keep your
course, it does get better. Just take a couple of nights and knock off
early, by 11 PM or so and your head will start to clear and feel better.
Great Rant.



Thank You,
Brian Webster

-Original Message-
From: Tom DeReggi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 8:16 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Adzilla & Revenue Streams


Peter,

No need to respond to most of your post, as your points were fair and made
sense to me. However a couple comments.

> if you have ever tried to hire sales people you know that it is
> challenging

I have, and failed miserably. I recognize its not easy. However, my weakness
shouldn't effect others from succeeding at it, that are better trained in
those skill sets.  Someone in the sales business needs to be good at it.

> Is it just me or are many of your posts written in outrage or disbelief?

Depends how you are directing that comment. On average I feel my on-list
comments are fair, objective, and realistic.
However, recently, I realize that I may have been a little easy to offend,
and a little quick to respond in outrage.
Recently, I've been under tremendous pressure, and have had little patience
because of it, and possibly taken my daily frustrations out on those around
me.
For that, I appologize, and ask for understanding.

However, if I stop for a second and analyze myself, and where the outrage
comes from... Its not that I'm an unreasonable person nor that the people
I'm conversing with are unreasonable.  I think it comes from the constant
reminder of several point of views that every one seems to think that
everyone should get paid except for me. That nobody should have to foot the
bill upfront, except me.  That they shouldn't have to take risk in their
business venture, but I should to be a part of it. That their part of the
partnership has more value than mine.  And that by being a small provider I
am in some way inadequate or less desirable to do business with than the
next guy.  And that as a Small guy I am a liabilty, not an asset.   It
doesn't matter what side of the fense I sit. If I'm the customer, the
provider doesn't want to take the risk, If I'm the provider, the customer
doesn't want to take the risk. Its always me that bends to make it all work.
I'm tired of bending, because I have recognized my worth, and no longer
should have to. If I have primarilly download data, they want to sell me
transit. If I primarilly have upload data they want to turn me into a peer
and charge me to send them traffic. Either way they want to get paid.  I
just get tired of hearing the message.  I need to establish business
ventures that guarantee that I get paid. Nobody has directly said these
things to me, but its inferred by their daily actions. And when I say "I", I
don't only mean "me", I mean small WISP. There is so much potential in the
small WISP market, if it was only recognized. The same arguement applies to
bankers and financers to. They are looking for the sure thing. Well business
isn't a sure thing.  Think about it for a second. Even our own government
shares this view. If there is any organization in the country that should be
investing and partnering in Wireless companies, its the federal governement,
or local governements for economic development. Even they are getting on the
bandwagon crying "No Tax Dollars Used", make the WISPs come up with the cash
to provide the FREE network to consumers.  What do you do when your own
governement says" Come Earthlink, Come AOL, Come Verizon, you are our only
hope, we need your money?"  Its not jeolousy, envy, or hatred of the big
guys, Its jsut the small guy get overlooked to easilly. I'm just tired of
hearing it.  Small business is an intricate part of American economy, and we
have an aweful lot to offer the world in value. Small Business is NOT a bad
word.  Small businesses should be helping small businesses succeed. I simply
believe that it is my job to stand up for what we WISPs have to offer. And
prove our value. I've taken the first step by investing everything I own in
being a small WISP, because I see the value.  I think the rest of the world
should also recognize the value. I don't want to appologize for WISPs
because most are still small. I want to demand that they are recognized for
full value.  You bring the arguement up, "its hard to hire sales people",
well I have the same problem, I have to find a way to do it to succeed.
Does that mean I turn away $50 residential subs when I'm searching for the
big $800 a month subs? I think WISPS need to start setting the presidence of
their valu

RE: [WISPA] FW: [TVWHITESPACE] This morning's senate hearing on the TV white spaces and the growing political importance of 802.22...

[Brian Webster]

Here is an 
idea to combat the interference worries. Why don't we suggest the use of the 
methods just approved for the 5.4 GHz band for avoiding the Radar 
operations. If this system is good enough to protect the federal government 
systems it should be good enough for all those people who still watch TV off the 
air (and I have to laugh about that one, those broadcasters don't rely on off 
the air signals to get the masses, it's cable TV)? Just a thought. Remember 
my offer to help this proposal with mapping support still 
stands.
 
Thank You,
Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

  -Original Message-From: Ron Wallace 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:15 
  PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] FW: 
  [TVWHITESPACE] This morning's senate hearing on the TV white spaces and the 
  growing political importance of 802.22...
  So Rick, Marlon & Scriv
  Where do we go from here?  Here is a copy of a letter I sent to Mich 
  Senators Levin & Stabenow, fyi.
  My name is Ron Wallace, I have been a long time supporter of 
Senator Levin and appreciate his good work in the 
  Senate.
  I am writing you today to ask for your support for the present 
legislation before the Senate regarding the unlicensed use of unused 
Broadcast Television frequency bandwidth by wireless internet service 
providers (WISPs).  I operate a WISP in Lenawee County Michigan.  
Providing adequate signal coverage to my rural service area is difficult at 
best using the existing unlicensed ISM, and UNII frequency bands (900 Mhz, 
2.45 Ghz & 5.2-5.8 Ghz).  These bands are severly attenuated by 
arboreal foliage (greatly decreased by trees & shrubbery), limiting our 
ability to reach rural subscribers.
  In these days of industrial contraction in Michigan, our small 
manufacturers that support the auto industry are being severely 
affected.  More people are beginning to work at home in these rural 
areas. Western Lenawee County is no exception.
  The bills are the Wireless Innovation Act of 2006 (WINN Act), S 
2327, introduced by Senators Allen (R-VA), Kerry (D-MA), Sununu (R-NH) and 
Boxer (D-CA) and the American Broadband for Communities Act (ABC Act), S 
2332, introduced by Commerce Committee Chairman Ted 
  Stevens.
  We need the Senators support of this critical legislation to 
ensure growth, and economic vitality in our County.  I look forward to 
your support and you may count on my continued support of the important work 
that Senator Levin continues to do in the US Senate.Ron WallaceHahnron, Inc.220 S. Jackson 
Dt.Addison, MI 49220Phone: (517)547-8410Mobile: 
(517)605-4542e-mail: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
according to Jim Snyder we need to "refute MSTV's detailed engineering 
attack on the white spaces proposals".  What do you all 
recommend?  
How may I assist?>-Original Message->From: 
Rick Harnish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Tuesday, March 
14, 2006 02:40 PM>To: ''WISPA General List''>Subject: [WISPA] 
FW: [TVWHITESPACE] This morning's senate hearing on the TV white spaces and 
the growing political importance of 802.22...>>More 
FYI.>>Rick Harnish>President>OnlyInternet 
Broadband & Wireless, Inc.>260-827-2482 
Office>260-307-4000 Cell>260-918-4340 
VoIP>www.oibw.net>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > 
>>>-Original Message->From: FCC NPRM for 
UHF TV Band Unlicensed Use On Behalf Of Jim Snider>Sent: Tuesday, 
March 14, 2006 2:10 PM>Subject: [TVWHITESPACE] This morning's senate 
hearing on the TV white spaces>and the growing political importance 
of 802.22...>>I attended this morning's senate hearing on 
wireless policy 
(see>http://commerce.senate.gov/hearings/witnesslist.cfm?id=1709) and 
thought>that Kevin Kahn's verbal statement in support of unlicensed 
use of the>TV white spaces was excellent. Here is a link to the 
written statement,>which I have not read: 
http://commerce.senate.gov/pdf/kahn-031406.pdf.>Jeannine Kenney from 
Consumers Union also provided a strong endorsement>of unlicensed use 
of the TV spaces. Even the GAO's representative,>JayEtta Hecker was 
quite supportive of the white spaces proposal. >>On the other 
hand, MSTV and PFF came out swinging against it. But it is>noteworthy 
that none of the senators badmouthed the white spaces>proposal and 
Senators Lautenberg, Allen, and Kerry gave it vigorous>endorsements, 
with even Committee Chair Stevens (who has one of the two>pro white 
spaces bills) speaking out in favor of it. The most 
eloquent>statement was by Lautenberg.>>As a practical 
matter, the biggest

RE: [WISPA] GPS Recievers

[Brian Webster]

Dan,
I like the Garmin product line. To get the best accuracy for a 
reasonable
price look for devices that have WAAS. This is a secondary differential
correction signal sent from Geostationary birds on each coast. It does not
always work but for the price it gets you real close. You should be able to
get accuracy to 20 feet or better in most situations.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>



-Original Message-
From: Dan Petermann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:46 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] GPS Recievers


I'm looking for very good GPS receivers.

I've used Trimble in the past and found them to be very good, but
expensive. That was back in 1998 - 2001.

I'd like to get sub-meter accuracy if the price is right.  When
dealing with mountain tops and ridge lines,  100' off  can put you at
the bottom of a cliff.

Any recommendations?
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[WISPA] Patrick Leary contact number

[Brian Webster]

Does anyone have Patrick's contact info, I lost it again.


Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com


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RE: [WISPA] YDI AP-Plus Power Supply

[Brian Webster]

As I recall 
that is correct if you are using the POE adapter. I just worked on a unipop with 
an AMP that had one.
 
Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com

  -Original Message-From: Mark Nash 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 1:45 
  PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: [WISPA] YDI AP-Plus 
  Power Supply
  Anyone know what power supply specs I'd need for 
  a YDI AP-Plus (the older kind with the card slots)?  I'm removing it from 
  a WiPOP-In-A-Box which has built-in power supplies.  I think it's 
  48vdc.
   
  Thanks.
  Mark NashNetwork 
  EngineerUnwiredOnline.Net350 Holly StreetJunction City, OR 
  97448http://www.uwol.net541-998-541-998-5599 
  fax
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RE: [WISPA] Motorola StarPoint 6000

[Brian Webster]




Johnny,
    Can you give me more details on what you have. Is this 2 GHz stuff 
(probably 1800-1900 MHz)? I have a local county here who uses what I think is 
Starpoint but not sure. They are running out of spare cards and such and might 
be interested. I think this was used a lot in older public safety networks and 
other microwave projects like utility companies. It was mostly for radio 
networks and remote control. There may be a need on the used 2 way radio market 
for these items. If you can pull a little more information on what you have, 
specifically models and cards in the racks it may be of some use for the 2 way 
shops who maintain older systems and are having a hard time getting spare 
parts.
 
Thank You,
Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

  -Original Message-From: JohnnyO 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 9:28 
  PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: [WISPA] Motorola 
  StarPoint 6000I've aquired 24-26 full racks of Motorola 
  Starpoint equipment - Does anyone know of who may be using this. Someone 
  mentioned they are using this equipment in Africa ??Any 
  suggestions are welcome JohnnyO
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RE: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance

[Brian Webster]

I might be inclined to say it may be a loser in the future. I just read an 
article in a Telco trade magazine that announced a software package that can 
sniff SIP packets and give real time information for billing based on an IBM 
server. In that same article they talked about how they could limit or stop any 
SIP traffic from any provider if they wanted, but the thing that caught my eye 
was how they mentioned they could tell things like termination points and 
delivery charges. This is just like the current Telco model. If they start 
pushing VOIP to a typical Telco model (and they should from their point of view 
to level the playing field and raise the cost of doing VOIP) then the 
regulatory and call delivery costs will go up and the cost benefit starts to go 
down. It is an interesting point of view and worth keeping an eye on. The way 
they were able to shove the 911 thing down the VOIP operators throats in such 
short order makes me wonder if they won't do the same thing with termination 
charges based on IP and packets like they do with copper now.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com> 



-Original Message-
From: Jason Hensley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 1:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


For someone like me who is currently looking at getting into the VoIP 
business, why is it that you feel VoIP will be a long-term loser?  I have 
just started my research into what it will take to provide this so I'm a 
little behind on it, but I'm definately interested in all opinions and 
options.

Thanks!



- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP/PBX Gateway appliance


> Primus/Lingo is calling every WISP in the country trying to sign them up 
> for a very CommPartners like deal. All of these VoIP providers are using 
> the same shitty model that will be worthless in 2 years time. There is no 
> money to be made in VoIP short-term unless you operate your own equipment. 
> Long-term, there is no money to be made in VoIP at all. VoIP will soon be 
> a loss leader; plan for it or do get into the VoIP business.
>
> BTW, Primus makes all their money on international termination. The 
> domestic stuff is losing money hand over fist.
>
> -Matt
>
> John Scrivner wrote:
>
>> Primus tells me they are more than a VOIP company and that they do make 
>> money. They impressed me in my dealings with them. Can you share more 
>> about your information about Primus? I have a big interest in knowing 
>> anything I can about them right now.
>> Thanks,
>> Scriv
>>
>>
>> Peter R. wrote:
>>
>>> You haven't seen it yet, because Lingo is not profitable yet.
>>> Primus owns Lingo and Primus is basically an International VOIP company.
>>>
>>> Like so many VOIP Providers, they are still trying to figure out how to 
>>> make a profit.
>>>
>>> Delta3 (which is the backend for VZ's VoiceWing) made $9.1M in revenue 
>>> in 4Q05 and just $22k in income.
>>>
>>> Vonage has a customer acquisition cost that is 20 times their MRC.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> Jonathan Schmidt wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've been personally delighted with two years of Lingo giving me
>>>> unlimited USA/Canada/EUROPE calling on 7 lines each for $19.95/month
>>>> and an unusually rich set of features (like e-mailing me compressed WAV
>>>> files of all incoming voicemails, etc.).
>>>>  Now, that's retail w/box and support.
>>>>  I've taken the box on trips and routed it through my laptop Ethernet 
>>>> while
>>>> the laptop is on a V.32 dialup and it works but sounds kind of like a 
>>>> cell
>>>> phone but having my local number with me in Europe and having unlimited
>>>> free calls throughout Europe from Europe or Eastern Europe for ZERO
>>>> additional cost is kinda cool.
>>>>  It's SIP but they keep promising a soft phone for the line, like 
>>>> Vonaga, but
>>>> haven't seen it yet.
>>>>  . . . j o n a t h a n
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik MUM - whose going?

[Brian Webster]




It would be 
better if you could get him to do the presentation with a beer in his hand after 
he worked all day in the hot sun hanging radios in hurricane ravaged conditions. 
Then you'll get the real skinny on what you should be doing:-) And I'll bet 
you hear him say "and I'm gonna tell you somethin" at least once. Seriously his 
discussion will be a good one on this, for those of us that went down there it 
was a life altering experience. We all learned a lot and we learned that there 
still is good in our fellow man.
 
Thank You,
Brian Webster

 
 -Original Message-From: 
Carl A Jeptha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 
2006 9:41 PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] 
Mikrotik MUM - whose going?
That explains 
  everything?  :-D 
  You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha
Mac Dearman wrote: 
  



I forgot to mention that I will be giving a 30 minute 
presentation on the Katrina relief efforts that 5th at 1:30  - - - - - 
you better bring your pillow :-)
 
 
Mac DearmanMaximum Access, LLC.Authorized Barracuda 
ResellerMikroTik RouterOS Certifiedwww.inetsouth.comwww.mac-tel.uswww.RadioResponse.org (Katrina 
Relief)Rayville, La.318.728.8600 
318.303.4227318.303.4229
 
 
 
 

  - 
  Original Message - 
  From: 
  JohnnyO 
  To: 
  WISPA General 
  List 
  Sent: 
  Wednesday, March 01, 2006 12:51 PM
  Subject: 
  Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik MUM - whose going?
  oh jeez - there goes the neighborhood - Someone call ahead 
  to the Texas Rangers to let them know ! JohnnyOOn Wed, 
  2006-03-01 at 12:04 -0500, Carl A Jeptha wrote: 
  If none of your other deserving Katrina assistants wants one I'll take one.

You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha



Mac Dearman wrote:
> Mikrotik is holding their first ever U.S. MUM (MikroTik Users 
> Meeting)  in Dallas, TX, May 4-5th, 2006. There will also be a 
> training class scheduled for the three days prior to MUM.
>
>  I have a few free passes due to Katrina work  - -  any takers?
>
>
> More info here:
> http://mum.mikrotik.com/
>
>
> Mac Dearman
> Maximum Access, LLC.
> Authorized Barracuda Reseller
> MikroTik RouterOS Certified
> www.inetsouth.com
> www.mac-tel.us
> www.RadioResponse.org (Katrina Relief)
> Rayville, La.
> 318.728.8600
> 318.303.4227
> 318.303.4229
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sales & Marketing of Unlicensed Wireless Services 
> --SomeObservations
>
>
>> Quote:  "> IT'S OBVIOUSLY MORE THAN "JUST" TECHNOLOGY... "
>>
>> yes, it is.   More to the point, it's about meeting your customer's 
>> needs or
>> wants.
>>
>> Not shoving things at them they don't need or want, but genuinely
>> discovering what it is that sparks them to buy in the first place.
>>
>> I desperately need a GOOD VOIP wholesale deal, where I own the 
>> customer and
>> do frontline support, it's my own brand (if I brand it) and I merely  
>> bulk
>> buy minutes, numbers, and CPE.I can't sell my customers a 400 minute
>> account that costs me 25 bucks a month.  They can buy Packet8 for 
>> less than
>> most resell deals.
>>
>> I'd rather just bundle a VOIP service in a higher level tier (let's move
>> from 38 / mo to 55 or 60/mo ) of service, but needs to be affordable 
>> for me
>> to do.   Still, nobody's offering this kind of service, that I can find.
>> Either it is sold as raw products (requiring me to build a whole VOIP 
>> system
>> for my customers use) or as higher than retail priced "wholesale" 
>> programs.
>>
>> What I really need, then, is someone who does more of the backend stuff
>> (including providing e911)  but does so in mass quantity, and doesn't
>> "touch" my customer.
>>
>> I've also found that pc service can be a good side venture, but I'm not
>> convinced that we can actually compete on price with the computer 
>> store. If
>> we're busy, it's better value for our time to install and support our 
>> own
>> services.
>>
>> Just random thoughts on the topic...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> North East Oregon Fastnet

RE: [WISPA] Basic Mesh Theory

[Brian Webster]

As I recall the 60 GHz band has the problem of major attenuation because the
oxygen molecules resonate at 60 GHz which means normal free space loss
linear calculations have an anomaly at that range (which is why there is so
much spectrum for unlicensed use). You make an excellent point about all the
other spectrum available. The problem is we also have to look at the
business case of these networks on these frequencies. Since you do not have
any chipsets being produced in the millions for these bands there will never
be an affordable solution here. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the only
reason our industry has been one that could remotely be profitable has been
because of the consumer devices that have been adapted due to the cost
factor. Traditionally microwave radio equipment has been expensive and
mostly due to the almost hand made process for each radio since demand is so
low. It's the whole job without experience argument...



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>



-Original Message-
From: Jeromie Reeves [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 3:04 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Basic Mesh Theory


So how much spectum is needed? 24ghz is fairly clean, 60 ~ 70 is very
clean. The problem is NOT the lack of spectrum. It
is the lack of gear for the spectrum that would do well for mesh. Low
range (oh noes low range!) high bandwidth and low noise.
The short range will help with self interferance a lot. The 7ghz (yes,
seven ghz of band space) is enough for 56 100mhz channels
that are non over lapping channels with a 12.5mhz upper/lower gard band,
then toss in cross pol. Ive seen some gear for this
band but it is to costly right now for what it does. We need a SoC with
2 or 4 radios, 50~100mhz per radiowith a 2nd seup with
2 ~4 radios ad 200~400mhz per radio.

Jeromie


Jack Unger wrote:

> Brian,
>
> Exactly. You hit the nail on the head. The high noise levels combined
> with not enough license-free frequency space combined with
> unrealistically high traffic-handling expectations is going to doom
> most  public Wi-Fi-based municipal networks to extinction while at the
> same time, polluting the license-free spectrum that a responsible,
> RF-smart, wireless ISP could have used to deliver reliable service to
> some subset (limited by the available license-free frequency space) of
> that city's citizens.
>
> Maybe the RF-smart WISPs will decide to reach out to their cities and
> make a case for working together to improve public wireless broadband
> access. If WISPs don't work with their city, then the city usually
> turns to a mesh vendor who will, in most cases, promise more than the
> technology (for the reasons you pointed out) can deliver. Even worse,
> large cities are turning to the Earthlinks and Googles of the world,
> as if the Earthlink or Google name is somehow going to bend physics
> and make these networks work. A big corporate name, as we all should
> know by now, does not change the way that RF propagates, or the way
> that interference and spectrum pollution slows down network performance.
>
> Thank you for sharing your thoughts,
>   jack
>
> Brian Webster wrote:
>
>> Jack,
>> Let me jump in with some more thoughts on wireless mesh:
>>
>> I agree with you that RF engineering and RF limitations are not
>> being fully
>> considered in most mesh deployments. Most mesh designs I have seen are
>> theory based and assume the full use of the unlicensed spectrum at hand.
>> This will never be the case and therefore limits the overall
>> capacity. I saw
>> an RFP from the city of Miami Beach and they had done a pre-survey of
>> the
>> city and found the noise floor at 2.4 GHz at -70 db in most areas.
>> Now how
>> is one going to deploy a mesh network with the ability to overcome that?
>> Typical answer is build more nodes closer to each other so these PDAs
>> and
>> laptops get enough signal. This ignores the fact that all of these close
>> spaced nodes then create more noise for each other because they are
>> mounted
>> at a height where they hear each other. In high density nodes even
>> having 2
>> hops will bring these networks to their knees. There is not enough
>> spectrum
>> to make it work and be able to load the network up. An 802.11b based
>> system
>> can not deal with the hidden node problem effectively enough. Even if
>> you do
>> have all the internode traffic on other frequencies at the high density
>> placement required in most cities, the spectrum limits are still a
>> big issue
>> to have the channels to link all the nodes. I would still like to
>> hear 

RE: [WISPA] Basic Mesh Theory

[Brian Webster]

Jack,
Let me jump in with some more thoughts on wireless mesh:

I agree with you that RF engineering and RF limitations are not being 
fully
considered in most mesh deployments. Most mesh designs I have seen are
theory based and assume the full use of the unlicensed spectrum at hand.
This will never be the case and therefore limits the overall capacity. I saw
an RFP from the city of Miami Beach and they had done a pre-survey of the
city and found the noise floor at 2.4 GHz at -70 db in most areas. Now how
is one going to deploy a mesh network with the ability to overcome that?
Typical answer is build more nodes closer to each other so these PDAs and
laptops get enough signal. This ignores the fact that all of these close
spaced nodes then create more noise for each other because they are mounted
at a height where they hear each other. In high density nodes even having 2
hops will bring these networks to their knees. There is not enough spectrum
to make it work and be able to load the network up. An 802.11b based system
can not deal with the hidden node problem effectively enough. Even if you do
have all the internode traffic on other frequencies at the high density
placement required in most cities, the spectrum limits are still a big issue
to have the channels to link all the nodes. I would still like to hear of a
mesh network from any manufacturer that has been deployed and has a high
density of users that are the kids of today. I want to see what bit torrent,
VOIP and audio streaming do to a mesh in multiple hops. While we can make
the argument that those services can be limited, that is only a band-aid
approach as today's society is going to expect to be able to use these
services in one form or another, it may take a while but it will be
necessary. The cellular companies are already creating the expectation for
this kids to be able to audio stream on demand. If someone has knowledge of
a loaded mesh network please let me know. Don't get me wrong, I love the
idea of mesh and wish it could work and want to see it work. It's just that
I've been in ham radio since 1989 and was in to the packet radio technology,
we as hams built networks where we dealt with all of these issues (I know it
was only 1200 baud but the problems remain).  There are two major problems
in mesh from my viewpoint. One, if you have a carrier sense based collision
avoidance system, you always have limited capacity because only one radio
can talk at a time (part of the HDX problem). Two, if you do not have a
carrier sense based system then you can overcome noise with a stronger
signal. This causes cell site shrinkage or breathing and changes the
coverage area. Most people deal with this by building transmitters closer to
each other, problem is that there is limited unlicensed spectrum which is
not enough room for most systems to deal with this.
I really would like to see mesh work and hope to be proven wrong. There 
is
a lot of promise in mesh implementations out there but until I have seen
them under residential internet use loads I remain skeptical.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>



-Original Message-
From: Jack Unger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 1:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Basic Mesh Theory


Jeromie,

You raise some good points... and here are some more differences between
Matt's fully-meshed WIRED network example and the real-world conditions
under which WIRELESS mesh networks are so often deployed today.

1) REROUTING - Only a node failure or a high peak traffic load would
normally force a routing path change on a fiber/copper network. On a
wireless mesh, routing path changes will also result from interference
caused by other same-network nodes, interference from other networks,
and interference from other wireless non-network sources. Routing path
changes will also be caused by the movement of obstructions and other
rf-reflective objects such as trees and vehicles.

2. CAPACITY - Fiber/copper networks typically start out with
high-capacity (compared to wireless) full-duplex links. Wireless mesh
networks start out with low-capacity half-duplex links.

3. CONNECTIVITY - Fiber/copper mesh network nodes have two or more paths
to other nodes. "Real-world" wireless mesh networks may contain nodes
that, in some cases (the traditional "mesh" definition not withstanding)
only have a path to one other node. For example, obstructions may block
paths to all but one (or even no) other nodes.

4. ENGINEERING - Fiber/copper mesh networks are typically properly
engineered for traffic-carrying capacity, QoS, latency, etc.
"Real-world" wireless mesh networks are typically deployed in near-total
ignorance of the Layer 1 (wireless layer) conditions. That's the great
attraction (IMHO) of  muni-mesh networking today. These networks are
thrown up in

RE: [WISPA] Mesh Equipment

[Brian Webster]

Quoting Tom:

"What often happens, is technical people
make these beautiful products from a technical point of view, but they are
worthless because they don't solve the problems that need to be solved for
its applications, which were the reasons for originally developing the
technology."

Man have you hot the nail on the head!  Motorola is a company that gets
caught in this all the time. I can't tell you how many times over the years
I went to product introduction seminars as a 2 way radio dealer and the lead
engineer would be touting all the cool wiz bang features of the new radio.
It would always happen where a dealer would stand up and ask "does the radio
still do XYZ?" They would get a glassy eyed stare and say "no, that is old
technology and we did not include it in this model" The follow up statement
from the dealer would be " do you realize that 80% of our customer base
still uses this technology, what do we tell them?" and the engineer would
say " They will need to upgrade to the new technology". My take on this was
that they spent so much time patting themselves on the back in the lab with
their new toys that they never researched what the customer wanted and
needed to solve their communication problem. Typical Motorola attitude, they
will tell the customer what they need or what they will be
getting...They still have not learned this lesson...which is too
bad because they do have the ability to make great products and great
radios.


Brian

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RE: [WISPA] Photo Cell power

[Brian Webster]

I think DefactoWireless has some, thought I saw something like that when I
looked at their site a while back.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: chris cooper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 1:42 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Photo Cell power




Does anyone know where I can lay my hands on some street light photocell
to POE power adapters?

Thanks,
Chris Cooper
Intelliwave

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RE: [WISPA] Flawed Spectrum Analysis (I think!)

[Brian Webster]

Cliff,
Are you sure the first 140' was RG6? I think that is 75 ohm cable so 
that
may be a problem, if it was something else it still might have too much loss
at 5.8 GHz to get any signal to the SA. You may be on to something with the
adapters, if they were just using good quality N-Type for all the
connections it should not be a big deal, but if they were going from an N to
BNC or PL259 or any other type of connector not rated for 5.8 GHz that could
introduce big losses. I would have them inquire about the calibration (and
date) of the SA and it's rated sensitivity for 5.8 GHz. Operator skill might
come in to play, if they had too much attenuation switched in to the SA at
the time of the readings it could give the results you state. As far as
seeing your PTP signal, depending on how well you were doing the swing test
and/or the alignment of any nulls on the pattern it is possible that your
link signal would be low enough not to be detected with any of the above
situations. If your link has high gain antennas on both ends the beam width
of your signal could be narrow enough that it might not pass as close to
this tower as you would assume, the best way to check that is to draw a line
on the map between your sites and see if it really does cross this site in
the main beam.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>



-Original Message-
From: Cliff Leboeuf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 11:07 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Flawed Spectrum Analysis (I think!)


We proposed a spectrum analysis for a client. This analysis was to be
performed with a hand-held spectrum analyzer at the height that the
equipment was to be mounted. Our offer was rejected.

However, we were asked to provide the climber for the other party's
analysis.


Their analysis was performed as follows:
1. Using a 'nice' spectrum analyzer
a. the analyzer remained in their truck
b. the antenna from a 5.8Ghz Redline system was hauled about
140'
c. the original RF cable used was RG6 for 140'(duh?)
d. the next 140' of RF cable used was LMR400
e. we know that we shoot directly through one of the sites
surveyed with 5.8Ghz P2P link, and have 5.8 P2Mp links at two other
locations surveyed
f. all analysis showed no RF interference (go figure!)

I'm not an RF engineer, so would someone help me to explain why there
was no 5.8Ghz interference shown at these locations even though I know
there to be other 5.8Ghz equipment hitting the towers tested.

What is the RF cable loss at 140' of using LMR400 as described above?
Also factor in about 4 connectors to adapt the RF cable from the
analyzer to the antenna.

Is this a valid analysis, or am I wrong to comment to this customer that
I feel this analysis if flawed?

"Ammunition" that anyone is willing to supply would be appreciated as
well as advice for me to keep my mouth shut. :)

- Cliff


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[WISPA] Good news and bad news today

[Brian Webster]

Well, it does not surprise me that the government has decided to tax the
unlicensed spectrum. Today the Bush administration announced a plan to tax
Wi-Fi and other unlicensed spectrum. It is not clear how they will do it yet
but the process is in motion. That's the bad news, the good news is they
reached agreement on the 5.4 GHz spectrum and that should become available
once equipment gets certified. Check the RCR news site for the full stories.
Oh well, I suspected that it would not last forever the truly free use of
the spectrum.

http://www.rcrnews.com/news.cms?newsId=25545
http://www.rcrnews.com/news.cms?newsId=25539



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com
Free World Dialup #481416

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[WISPA] contact info for Patrick Leary

[Brian Webster]

Anyone have Patrick's contact info. I need to talk with him ASAP.


Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com
Free World Dialup #481416

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RE: [WISPA] Tower Height Regulations

[Brian Webster]

Scriv,
I used to conduct advanced FAA studies when I worked for a large tower
company. You can use the TOWAIR system on the FCC WTB website to get a rough
idea of the requirements near an airport but to get maximum heights there
are many factors mainly dealing with invisible surfaces that relate to
instrument approach procedures. They can get very complicated. Towair can
also give you false positive indications that you would need to light a
tower. This is mainly due to the fact that TOWAIR calculates the distance to
the airport reference point rather than the closest point to the actual ends
of the runway. While this is no big deal in most cases, it can be if you are
located close to the field. As a tower company we used to figure out the
best possible locations and heights using some great software from
www.airspaceusa.com. While the software is expensive for the casual user,
the owner Clyde Pitman can run studies for you. He is a retired FAA air
traffic controller and very knowledgeable on the subject. If anyone needs to
locate a tower near an airport feel free to get in touch with me and I'll
let you know all the tricks to get the maximum heights. Simple things like
level of survey certification can gain you up to 50 feet in additional
height allowed by the FAA.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>



-Original Message-
From: John Scrivner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:59 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tower Height Regulations


There are FAA guidelines about structures under 200 feet near airports
but I have not searched for those guidelines. If you Google it and find
anything of interest please feel free to pass along to the rest of us
here. I remember something about allowing so many feet above AGL
(Average Ground Level) for every mile from a runway.
Scriv

> - Original Message -
> *From:* JNA <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *To:* 'WISPA General List' <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2006 2:57 AM
> *Subject:* RE: [WISPA] Tower Height Regulations
>
> Did anyone ever respond on this? I am interested as well.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> --
--
>
> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Kurt Fankhauser
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 03, 2006 2:44 PM
> *To:* wireless@wispa.org <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>
> *Subject:* [WISPA] Tower Height Regulations
>
> Beside’s local regulations does the FAA/FCC have requirements on
> the distance your tower is from the roads if it falls. I had
> someone tell me today that a couple years ago they made a law that
> if you had a 100’ tower it needed to be 150’ away from the road.
> And they said that older towers would be grandfathered in.
>
> Kurt Fankhauser
>
> WAVELINC
>
> 114 S. Walnut St.
>
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>
> 419-562-6405
>
> www.wavelinc.com
>
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RE: [WISPA] INSURANCE NOW canopy prices

[Brian Webster]

Charles,
Congratulations! She is beautiful! Hope all is well.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com> 
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: Charles Wu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 9:49 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] INSURANCE NOW canopy prices


>Hey Charles ... long time no see ... any winog on 2006 ?

Hi Gino

Been Extremely Busy: http://www.winog.com/austin_2006/kaili_wu.jpg
Now that she FINALLY sleeps through the night, I'm able to start actually
concentrating and focusing at work again, and yes, WiNOG this year will be
from March 13-15, 2006 in Austin, TX

-Charles

---
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Technology Architects
http://www.cwlab.com 


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[WISPA] Local Media Coverage for Katrina GIS Response Vehicle

[Brian Webster]

Hi Folks, Happy New Year. 

    For 
those who had the chance to help out during the Katrina response and met Anthony 
Veltri with his mobile GIS lab, here is a local TV report on his van and the 
response http://www.turnto10.com/news/5695464/detail.html, 
you need to allow pop ups to view the video. He has also published a book with 
all of his photos from his trip. Most of the photos are the same ones from his 
blog of the adventure.
Thank You,
Brian Webster


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RE: [WISPA] BPL Announcement in Texas

[Brian Webster]

Now also remember all the hams who are really pissed off with a lot of the
BPL technology. It sends noise all over the shortwave bands. The FCC has
turned a blind eye to this with the current administration and the desire to
push broadband to the masses. I expect that hams will start to exercise
their rights to 1000 watts of power which will blow any BPL based on those
systems off the air, then the police will get involved in federal matters
because some whiner in the neighborhood will blame the ham who is legally
licensed to use the frequencies, is messing with their internet. Being that
this is in the shortwave bands it also has international treaty implications
as far as interference. Yes Tom I agree with you it is a risky business,
Motorola and their Canopy BPL hybrid seems to have avoided all of these
pitfalls, I guess it helps when a lot of your engineering staff are licensed
hams. The BPL story will get ugly before it becomes successful, if any of
your are interested, pop over to the ARRL site www.arrl.org and see what the
hams are doing to fight this technology. Hams are not against broadband but
they are against being interfered with when they have licensed spectrum
being polluted by unlicensed gear. The unfortunate problem is the old adage
of the benefit to the masses, hams are outnumbered by internet users (and
powerful utility company money).



Thank You,
Brian Webster N2KGC

-Original Message-
From: Tom DeReggi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 9:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] BPL Announcement in Texas


And maybe, the temporary FCC experimental license which temporarilly has
allowed BPL today, will be allowed to continue to exist? Or not?  Still a
risky investment, until BPL has been given a perminiate license to exist.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: Rick Harnish
To: 'WISPA General List'
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 1:58 PM
Subject: [WISPA] BPL Announcement in Texas


Posted from the Monday edition of www.dallasnews.xom,  see links below and
at end of story--Tom, WW5L

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-txu_19bus.ART.Sta
te.Edition3.bf6a1c.html


TXU grid to carry Internet service


New partner to offer broadband connection using power lines


  08:10 AM CST on Monday, December 19, 2005

By TERRY MAXON / The Dallas Morning News

A couple million Texans may soon be able to get their Internet broadband
service by plugging into their electrical outlets.

A Maryland company is teaming up with TXU Electric Delivery to offer North
Texas consumers Internet broadband service over TXU's electric lines.

In a deal to be announced today, TXU will pay about $150 million over 10
years for an ownership stake in Current Communications Group Inc., which
will turn TXU's transmission system into a "smart electricity grid."

In turn, Current plans to offer broadband service over TXU's lines.

Current Communications uses broadband over power lines, or BPL technology,
to hook up customers to the Internet using the electrical outlets in homes.

BPL has been touted as a cheaper, more efficient way to get broadband
service to customers who aren't easily reached with cable companies'
service or DSL service from telephone companies, or wireless service from a
cellular phone company or wireless broadband company.

However, BPL also competes head-to-head with established broadband
providers, as Current is doing in Cincinnati, where it partners with
electricity provider Cinergy Corp.

As it plans for TXU, Current is building a network atop Cinergy's system to
help Cinergy keep track of its power grid.

TXU and Current will begin designing the network that will overlay TXU's
electric distribution system. Construction is expected to begin in the first
half of 2006, with the first BPL service for consumers not expected before
the second half of the year.

Current Communications' BPL network will cover about 2 million homes and
businesses in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and other Texas cities, traversing
the majority of TXU Electric Delivery's service area, the companies said.

TXU Energy, Reliant and other retailers obtain power over TXU Electric
Delivery's grid.

With the consumer application not coming until later, TXU and Current
officials touted the smart-grid functions, which will allow TXU to monitor
its widespread system. TXU Electric Delivery, a part of TXU Corp. and
formerly called Oncor, operates more than 14,000 miles of transmission lines
and 100,000 miles of distribution lines taking electricity to 3 million
customers.

"Current's BPL solution is a critical enabler of our mission to dramatically
improve the way we deliver electricity," TXU Electric Delivery chairman and
chief executive Tom Baker said.

"BPL will enable us to respond more quickly and 

[WISPA] FW: wireless service Southwest Michigan, Allegan County

[Brian Webster]

I just received this email from a guy looking for service in this area. He
is located in the Southwest corner of Allegan county Michigan. I didn't know
of anyone off the top of my head so here it is. I replied to him and said I
would send his request to the lists. Contact him direct.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 1:31 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: wireless


Hi,

I live in a rural area in Michigan and have a question about wireless. I
am trying to determine if there is anyone in my area that has a tower
close enough for me to receive wireless internet.  I do not know where to
begin. I found one company in our area but they are not close enough and
they use antenna equipment (i2kwireless.com). I do have Alltel cell phones
and they do work most of the time(occasional dropped calls)-which may be
rectified with a booster.  With your resources could you please give me a
direction to go to find a tower/service provider in my area? My address is
1190 62nd Fennville, MI 49408. Thank you.

Bob Buckius
616-283-4298



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RE: [WISPA] How to keep track of appointments

[Brian Webster]

Bob,
Make sure you get the free intelisync download from Yahoo, it allows 
you to
sync everything with your desktop Outlook with a press of the button. I like
this feature as it seems much easier to input items on the calendar and
contact list in outlook rather than the web interface on Yahoo. It's also a
great way to keep a full backup of your contacts off site. Yahoo even sends
out email reminders of any appointments.



Thank You,
Brian Webster

-Original Message-
From: Bob Moldashel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 10:09 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] How to keep track of appointments


Thank you Matt Larsen.  I just added that to my portfolio of helpful
items..

-B-





Matt Larsen - Lists wrote:

> Reliable Internet, LLC wrote:
>
>> How do ya'll do it?  I used to remember everything, but I am
>> forgetting things lately.  Maybe it's old age (i did just turn 22) or
>> maybe the work volume has increased past my memory's capacity.
>> Either way I need a solution.  Do I go with a program on the laptop?
>> Or some kind of handheld device.  I don't currently own a handheld,
>> and would be willing to purchase.  What seems to be most efficient
>> for you all?
>>
>> Brian
>
>
> Yahoo Calendar.  It will also sync up with Outlook so you can share
> the calendar.  We are sharing our calendar with all employees and our
> primary installers.  Not the cleanest, but it works well.
>
> Matt Larsen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US & Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] How to keep track of appointments

[Brian Webster]

Tom,
Excellent point about the whole process of getting a customer. Could 
this
be done in a project management tool? You could assign each customer as a
project, set up gant charts for the start to finish process and track each
customer as a separate project. I'm just thinking off the cuff about this.
As you mentioned the whole process it reminds me more of a project tracking
than a customer sales lead tracking. I don't know if the software packages
would be able to set the customer data up properly as you would in a contact
list though. There are open source Linux packages available to do this as
well as things like Microsoft Project. Seems like it might be easier to
adapt one of these than to make something from scratch since most of the
WISP's are hard put for time as it is. Anyway, it's just a thought.



Thank You,
Brian Webster


-Original Message-
From: Tom DeReggi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 9:12 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] How to keep track of appointments


These all look cool for Open source of doing what Goldmine or Outlook
already do, jsut with a few more features. But the problem with these is
they are not industry specific and are really individual centered.

Managing installtion and sales leads in the WISP industry is much different.
Each sales lead is a project in itself. (close deal, do pre-qual survey, do
site cisit survey, get antenna approval from landlord, start install,
progress on install, order product for install, etc). All leads should come
to a central queue for all to view and follow up on, and then able to be
assigned, but still viewed globally. But onced assigned, it should not be
bulked in with tasks that are truly personal that shouldn't be viewed from
others.  I believe there are more categories than jsut task, appointment,
project, etc.   In addition should add, tech support request, installation
schedule, onsite service schedule, without combining them to the generic
categories of tasks and appointments.  Where as a true sales appointment
would ahve different tracking and scheduling needs than an installtion
appointment, etc.  Thats the problem with these generic type of systems.
I'd like to see something customized specifically for the processes of a
WISP.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "Peter R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] How to keep track of appointments


> danlist wrote:
>
>>SugarCRM is good, so is vtiger crm which is based on the sugar crm code
>>
>>Dan
>>
> SugarCRM is the basis for SalesForce.com.
> SugarCRM can be purchased in a hosted per user fashion that you can access
> anywhere.
>
> Outlook/PDA works.
>
> Mozilla has a calendar function. (Project Sunbird as a stand-alone).
>
> There is a lot of groupware / collaboration ware, but as a one-man XP
> shop, I have a wild idea.
> Use a Virtual Assitant (www.assistu.com).
> A VA can take/make your appointments (log them on Yahoo calendar), take
> your calls, do your books, etc.
> Better than hiring a full-time person.
>
> Drop me a note if you want more info.
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
> RAD-INFO, Inc. - NSP Strategist
> We Help ISPs Connect & Communicate
> 813.963.5884
> http://4isps.com
>
> ISP Expo in Tampa, Dec. 9 & 10
> --
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>
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>
>
> --
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>
>

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RE: [WISPA] New Tower Installation - Check out these towers!

[Brian Webster]

Here is the price list http://www.isotruss.com/met-towers.asp



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com> 
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: Brian Rohrbacher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 12:19 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Tower Installation - Check out these towers!


Just came across these.  They look pretty neat.

http://www.isotruss.com/wifi-towers.htm

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14765077

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,8672279?hilite=isotruss

If I get a chance I am going to see what a 90 footer costs.  If anyone 
else calls before I do, post it here so we can all see the price on 
these bad boys.

Brian

Matt Larsen - Lists wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I'm getting ready to put up my first tower (finally found a place 
> where there weren't any existing towers available) and would like to 
> get some comments from others about whether I am doing the right things.
>
> My goal is to mount a 2' PacWireless 5Ghz dish, a 3' PacWireless 5Ghz 
> dish and 13db PacWireless H-pol Omni antenna at the 80 foot level.
>
> The tower site used to have a very large radio tower on it, so the 
> base and guy points are all still in place.  The base has a single pin 
> in the center, and the guy anchors are 90' out at 120 degree intervals.
>
> My intention is to put up a Rohn 45 equivalent tower - 8 sections and 
> a 5' base section for a total of 85' of tower; two sets of guy points 
> - one at 40' and another at 80'.  The antennas will mount right above 
> the guy wires.
>
> Here are some of the questions that I have:
>
> 1)  Should I use a flat base or an angled base (single pin)  There is 
> already a pin in place from the old tower, but I don't know whether it 
> makes sense to use it or just put a flat base with new anchors in.
>
> 2)  Does it make sense to put a hinged base at the bottom, assemble 
> the tower and raise it with a winch -- or should I use a gin pole to 
> put it together?
>
> 3)  I have not ordered my tower pieces yet.  New costs look to be 
> about $3200 for 8 10' sections, base, 2 guy brackets, 1000' of guy 
> wire, guy wire ground kit and 6 turnbuckles.  Am I missing anything on 
> this list?  Does anyone have this sort of thing laying around that 
> they would like to sell?  I'm just looking for some recommendations as 
> to whether this is the right price range.
>
> Thanks for your assistance guys!
>
> Matt Larsen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [WISPA] More Katrina Pics

[Brian Webster]

That's the 55 gallon drum with arms and hair...:-) As you can see he was
enjoying the heat out there that day. I was the fool and forgot the
sunscreen, my chrome dome became red..Didn't think I would be
out in the sun long that day, I'll try to remember how nice and warm it was
when I'm knee deep in snow in a couple of months.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: Bob Moldashel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 9:59 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] More Katrina Pics


Rick Harnish wrote:

> http://www.flickr.com/photos/wispa_rick_harnish/  or do a tag search
> for katrinawireless at http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/ to see all
> pictures which have been related to the effort so far.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> **/Rick Harnish/**
>
> /President/
>
> /OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc.///
>
> /260-827-2482 Office/
>
> /260-307-4000 Cell/
>
> /260-918-4340 VoIP///
>
> /www.oibw.net <http://www.oibw.net/>/
>
> **/[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/**
>
>
>
> **/  /***/ <http://www.oibw.net/>/*
>
>  **//**
>
> <http://www.wispa.org/>
>
>
>


Who is the Columbian Drug Lord with you guys??

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wispa_rick_harnish/49722158/

:-P

-B-

--
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US & Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] satellite imaging company?

[Brian Webster]

George,
What area do you need. If this company has to fly the area to get the
images that price is good. Are you looking for color or b&w, at what
resolution and for what purpose. I know of quite a few different sources but
it depends on what you are looking for.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: George [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 7:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] satellite imaging company?


Anyone have experience with buying imagery for your area from a
satellite imaging company?

I got a quote from one company, but there price at about $48.00 per
square kilometers at minimum 192 square kilometers. They don't have
current pictures of our area archived.

I'm looking for other options and prices.

George
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RE: [WISPA] NY Times article

[Brian Webster]

Mac,
I'd be curious to see the difference in the web site traffic in the next
day or so as a result of the article. Let us know if you get time. The
article is great, you represented everyone well.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: Mac Dearman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 3:29 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] NY Times article



   Wireless is definitely in the news since Katrina - - - here is an
article in the New York Times today

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/05/technology/techspecial/05belson.html

and these are some that came out in the last day or two via the
Associated Press and picked up all over the Country

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=mac+dearman&filter=0

Mac Dearman
Maximum Access, LLC.
www.inetsouth.com
www.radioresponse.org (Katrina relief efforts)
318-728-8600 - Rayville
318-728-9600
318-376-2562 - cell


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[WISPA] Earthlink now in the WISP business

[Brian Webster]

Well this is they type of 
thing I feared, the well funded big guys getting in to the WISP business. 
Earthlink was awarded the contract with Philly to build out their wi-fi network. 
They have also been one of the companies submitting a plan to San Francisco. 
Let's just hope they don't blindly deploy Canopy and clog up all the spectrum. 
I'm sure these guys won't want to play nice in channel planning especially if 
they have the municipal blessings. Never a dull moment in this 
industry 
http://www.rcrnews.com/news.cms?newsId=24387
Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.comFree World 
Dialup #481416
 
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RE: [WISPA] Some VOIP Experimenting

[Brian Webster]

Matt,
I found an easy way to set up an asterisk box with AMP called [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
http://asteriskathome.sourceforge.net/, they have good help pages. You burn
an ISO disk and then let it do it's thing on boot. It will wipe the hard
drive clean and do a fresh install but it works great. I ran it on a similar
machine to yours. I'll have to play with the codec's some more to see about
performance issues. I just picked up a USB phone and have started playing
with it in addition to my sipura box. On a laptop it's nice not needing the
headset. When I set mine up I put it in the DMZ of my router, when I was on
the road helping Mac I was able to get the IAX soft phone to connect as an
extension. This allowed me to pull dial tone from home wherever I could
connect, nice tool. I have a VOIP account from Broadvoice and was able to
log in and switch over easily to my asterisk box from the SIPURA I was
using. For those who don't want to set up a paid account with a VOIP
provider they can set up a Free World Dial Up account
http://www.freeworlddialup.com/. With this you can call peer to peer,
outgoing 800 numbers, and PSTN callers can call you if they have the list of
access numbers attached all for free. I encourage everyone to at least play
with this and become familiar with the technology. VOIP has been a big part
of the hurricane recovery efforts for WISP's.

Thanks for the information Matt, it will be a big help to all.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: Matt Larsen - Lists [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 4:41 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
WISP-Related Topics
Subject: [WISPA] Some VOIP Experimenting


Hello all,

I've been doing some experimenting with VOIP and asterisk over my
wireless network and came up with a few general observations that I
thought might be useful for those of you looking at voip and how it
impacts your network:

1)  My test voip server is a P3 550 with 512MB of memory.  I installed
Fedora Core 3 and AMP (Asterisk Management Portal - available from
http://amp.voxbox.ca).   This provides a very straightforward web based
interface for configuring Asterisk, but is not without a few bugs - more
on that later.

2)  I am using accounts from Nufone and Teliax to do my beta testing.
Nufone has been around longer and has a reputation for being very solid
technically, but does not have much for online assistance.  Teliax has
excellent online resources, and also has local numbers in many places.
I was quite surprised to find out that they had local numbers in my
small town in Nebraska.  Nufone works, but I think that Teliax may be
worth a little extra just to get the better support resources and access
to more local numbers.

3)  I am using a Sipura SPA-2000 two line adapter at home to do my
testing.  With some experimentation, I was able to get this adapter to
work through NAT.

4)  My home connection is limited to 1024K down/512K upload and connects
to a StarOS access point.  My home CPE is a WRAP board with a CM9 card
running in 802.11b mode.  The StarOS AP has 200+ customers on it, is
located 8 miles away and has approximately 80 customers on the sector
that services my house.  The VOIP server is two hops from my home, and
average latency to it is 10ms.   There is no QOS on the network.  The
telephone in the house is a Panasonic 2.4Ghz Frequency hopping phone,
and it sits next to a Ezy Net radio in client mode that connects to my
home access point.   I use an IPCop firewall box.  The  IPCop box is an
older version that doesn't have the QOS shaping available.

4)  Initial testing was with the G711 (aka ulaw) codec that is standard
on the Sipura and also a standard codec in Asterisk.   This  codec
used  80KB up , and  about 80KB down when a two way conversation was
going.  On this heavily loaded AP, this was a bit of  a problem, but it
was usable.   I was able to carry on a one hour conversation with only a
minimum of noticeable breakup one night, and the next day I had another
conversation that deteriorated rapidly.  Downloading also seemed to
affect the connection quite a bit.

5)  Second round of testing was with an iaxComm softphone.  The
softphone connected with the GSM codec and used  15 to 25KB during
conversation.  Audio quality seemed to be pretty good, but it was hard
to tell becuase I do not have a headset on my PC - I was dependent on
the built-in speakers and microphone.

6)  Final round of testing was with the Sipura adapter after I was able
to get the G729 codec operational on the Asterisk box.  By setting the
Sipura to only use G729, traffic was 24KB up and 24KB down during two
way conversation.  Audio quality was not quite as good as with G711,
but there were fewer breakups and even with a large download going, it
was still usable.

5)  AMP has a few bugs, n

[WISPA] Article in this weeks Telephony Magazine about recovery efforts

[Brian Webster]

I just read through the 
September 19th edition of Telephony magazine. This is the Telco trade journal. 
There was an article about the recovery efforts and rebuilding after Katrina. 
There is specific mention of Part-15, other WISP's and quotes from Trango about 
wireless broadband and VOIP making fast recovery of telecom services in the 
effected areas. Mac's teams and efforts are going to have a lasting impression 
on the LEC's and I think they will be quite nervous over this. Don't be 
surprised if this leads to more legislative efforts to thwart wireless and VOIP. 
On the upside to this, it should open some eyes at the government levels and 
give us more ammunition to capture some spectrum.
 
Mac,
    It 
seems that everywhere I turn now there are references to your work and others 
like you, between wireless and VOIP, recovering large capacity telecom resources 
in devastated areas is much quicker than anyone has imagined. This comes at a 
time in society where the internet is a vital form of communication, even for 
relief work. Times are a changin....
Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.comFree World 
Dialup #481416
 
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[WISPA] One blog documenting things done

[Brian Webster]

Hi 
Folks,
    Having 
just returned last night from the recovery efforts I got a chance to look at 
Anthony's www.rfi-llc.com web site. He is a 
world class photographer and was along with us down there. He has a mobile GIS 
lab and came along to see what he could do to assist. He ran in to his home 
state SAR (RI) team, they realized what he could do for them and was immediately 
pulled in to a second job while there. Serving two groups keeps him working 
night and day. He remains there now (pulled back to Pensacola for now) to 
further assist. He has a great blog that shows just a small part of the work 
everyone is doing there http://www.rapid-fire.us/index.php?curr_month=9&curr_year=2005&showimage=12, 
he has only scratched the surface with his photos, as Scriv has mentioned it is 
a life altering experience seeing this.
Thank You,
Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.comFree World 
Dialup #481416
 
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RE: [WISPA] Funding help

[Brian Webster]

Rick,
The address is 298 Tower Drive Ponchatoula LA. I'm heading out today, 
I'll
see you down there.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
214 Eggleston Hill Rd.
Cooperstown, NY 13326


-Original Message-
From: Rick Harnish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:14 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Funding help


Mac,

I plan on pulling out of Indiana, tomorrow afternoon.  Tell me what else I
can bring.  I have over 100 computer monitors and 30 computers, oh and 10
pallets of pretzels :)  Will probably run through Mount Vernon, IL and try
to drag Scriv along.  I will need directions to where I need to go.  I will
be heading back on Monday but I'm yours for the weekend.


Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482 Office
260-307-4000 Cell
260-918-4340 VoIP
www.oibw.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:08 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Funding help

Cliff,

I appreciate you more than you as these guys are looking to me for
their next meal and I will do whatever I can do to keep them in gas and
food. This has been a TRUE grass rootd campaign right down to the CAT5
cable. We have all used our own stock of goods and we have gotten no
help from anywhere short of a few donations that totaled about $2000.00 .

   If you send your donation to my paypal account we will have use of
those funds now. Then I can make a call and tell the boys not to use
my/their credit card to buy the metal (angle iron...etc) with personal
money - - - -- - come get my PayPal card.

THANKS A MILLION
Mac






Cliff wrote:

>Mac,
>I've donated equipment to JohnnyO's effort.
>Where to you want me to send $1,000 to for your's?
>
>Cliff - Work
>985-879-3219
>www.cssla.com
>www.triparish.net
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Mac Dearman
>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:15 AM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] response to Pulver Blog & Funding help
>
>Carl,
>
>   I really have a lot to say on this very subject, but I have too many
>other things going on - - - like path calcs and getting the right gear
>for the job and about 24 men to pat on the back and a personal hug for
>each of them everyday as I see them. Make no mistake about it - - - - -
>- these men are the unsung heroes!!
>
>Funding? FUNDING?
>  3 men from this list is all that have donated  and short of that
>there has been no funding!! Macs Farm fed and watered every night thus
>far except last night as we are in Ponchatula, Louisiana and 3 nights my
>brothers and sisters came over and cooked to give Sharon a break as she
>has washed clothes, cooked, mopped the floors everyday, answered the
>phones, ran Maximum Access, ran Dixie Lift truck services and then made
>sure she had what she needed for the next day.
>
>  Damn, I guess we will all be under a shelter next looking for a meal.
>I was wondering if there are no funding available to help these fine men
>
>and myself? How about some kind of fund raising?
>
>  We are buying angle iron & cinder blocks this morning and all that it
>takes to build a heavy non penetrating roof mount to place atop of a
>University Library. This is being built by my team and you wouldnt
>believe the talents and abilities here. We have a mobile lab and a
>mobile shop that is amazing. Truthfully - - - - - there has been a
>divine hand guiding this whole thing and it is more than evident in my
>eyes.
>
>Mac Dearman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Carl A Jeptha wrote:
>
>
>
>>My apologies if I upset anybody, but this is what I commented on the
>>above Blog, I am tired of all the bullshit.  I am angry that I cannot
>>be there to help these guys with what they are doing, so Mac, Johnny
>>and Company remember there is another side to this - being frustrated
>>because you cannot lift a hand to help.
>>
>>"Gentlemen and Ladies,
>>May I draw your attention to a group of WISP (Wireless Internet
>>Service Providers) who before an "disaster" was declared was already
>>delivering "communications" to shelters. When "only 40 people" had
>>died from Katrina, they were on the ground and knew the tally would be
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>in the thousands, they knew New Orleans would not be spared. These are
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>the men and women who were on the ground running before FEMA and the
>>President was properly briefed. They were the ones, with donations
>>from other WISP's and related services 

RE: [WISPA] Need Inputs FromHurricaneReliefWISP Teams ForFCCPresentation on Thursday

[Brian Webster]

Just so everyone knows, I was able, with the blessing from Mac, to give
Michael Anderson a good network and backhaul coverage map which showed the
initial shelters served within the first few days. It is a very good visual
representation and should work well in the PowerPoint that he is doing. At
Mac's request the information was to be used with the identification of his
company and a line stating he is a founding member of WISPA. Michael sent me
a response back saying that would be done.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: rcomroe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:13 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need Inputs FromHurricaneReliefWISP Teams
ForFCCPresentation on Thursday


Certainly didn't meant to imply that it can't work.  To repeat, I've
conducted a zillion remote meetings using streaming video/audio (I don't
mean 1,000 billion ... I just mean I've conducted remote meetings with IP
videoconferencing more times than I could count).  I don't mean remote
meetings using streaming video /or/ audio.  I mean I've done a zillion
remote meetings using streaming video /and/ audio.  What you've described
(remote audio accompanied by live graphics) is easier, but it also lacks the
sense of face-to-face.  Congressional testimony typically provides the
invitees to each present briefly, but then follows with face-to-face Q&A
with the present panel members (which I'd assert the people not physically
present lose out on to a great degree).

Why do I think it's not appropriate?  From my experience, live video /and/
audio requires more BW than audio alone (all you need for audio is a phone),
and depends upon understanding the end-to-end path.  One often has a handle
on the channel from one side well in advance, but very little time to assess
or adapt for what you find on the end where you're delivering to (where the
meeting is being conducted).  Setup time is also an issue.  When you're
given only 5 minutes the last thing you want is a hiccup and risk "nuttin".

I'm just giving my opinion based on my background and experience.  If your
delivery is important, you don't risk it on accomplishing a successful IP
videoconference, although it certainly can be done.  I still think someone
from wispa could collaborate with P15 on the presentation material and
satisfy both groups (and that seems to me to be the most practical
solution).

Rich

- Original Message -
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need Inputs From HurricaneReliefWISP Teams
ForFCCPresentation on Thursday



- Original Message -
From: "rcomroe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need Inputs From Hurricane ReliefWISP Teams
ForFCCPresentation on Thursday


Done a zillion remote meetings using streaming video/audio.  Not appropriate
for an FCC presentation.

mks:  I beg to differ.  When I was there speaking at the WISP Showcase they
had others "attend" via voice links.  Someone locally ran the slides and the
remote guys just told them when to click to the next one.  The event was
also streamed live via the FCC's web site.


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RE: [WISPA] Need Inputs From Hurricane Relief WISP Teams ForFCCPresentation on Thursday

[Brian Webster]

It might be real tough, just got off the phone with Mac and they have not
yet re-established net connectivity at the new base camp.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: John Scrivner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 3:01 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need Inputs From Hurricane Relief WISP Teams
ForFCCPresentation on Thursday


Bravo! I agree! This would be BIG impact. Can we get it done this quick?
Scriv


Brad Larson wrote:

>Video stream Mac from the field into the FCC meetingBrad
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: George [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 1:27 PM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need Inputs From Hurricane Relief WISP Teams
>ForFCCPresentation on Thursday
>
>
>John Scrivner wrote:
>
>
>>I know Matt has been away from home a bunch lately but I think we should
>>send Matt Larsen to this FCC event if he will go. We can take the $500
>>from Charles as part of the expense and have WISPA cover the rest. I
>>think we need a front line guy to speak at this event. I think we should
>>ask Michael to introduce Matt and yield a bit of his time if the FCC
>>will not grant Matt his own time. This shows unity between industry
>>groups and gives Part-15 and WISPA both an opportunity to show our
>>efforts in helping those in need. Thoughts?
>>Scriv
>>
>>
>>
>
>I agree that Matt would do well if he could find someone to talk to.
>And he would be in the top of the list of people I would want to go to
>Washington and represent us.
>
>However, Marlon, if he has the time, has experience of "roaming the
>halls of the FCC" looking for someone to talk to.
>
>Maybe Marlon would be a better choice in this instance?
>
>WISPA hasn't been formally invited to talk to the FCC people, so the
>person that goes will need to cold call, which might be difficult to do.
>
>I think this is the perfect time to talk to Washington, and make sure or
>reinforce that it was WISPA  quick actions that got phone, broadband,
>and computers into the hands of the displaced. Mac Dearman and WISPA
>were "First Responders"
>
>We need to make sure that we get this credit  right away. As time passes
>on, a lot will be forgotten and it will be much harder to get the type
>of exposure we now deserve.
>
>It would also be good to sometime in the future have a special trip to
>Washington for the member wisps of wispa who were effected and those who
>volunteered the time and effort to be quick responders.
>Guys like Mac need to be recognized for their quick actions, especially
>in light of how slow it took the government to respond.
>
>
>Just my thoughts.
>
>George
>
>
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RE: [WISPA] Kelly WISP Incident

[Brian Webster]

Steve,
Well said and the whole incident does not surprise me. This industry has
always served people in a manor "outside of the box" and it is obviously not
compatible with the systems and processes in place. Mac's team from the
start had the idea we need to help these people now, the system be dammed,
we can't wait. This has worked well and may not have served as large a
number of people as the other project could have, but it did actually help
people right away. It is very disheartening to hear of the way things
happened on the Part-15 project. Being in emergency management for over 17
years involved with Amateur radio, this disaster is completely hobbled by
the new processes put in place post 9/11 with command and control. Let's
hope this does not hamper the spirit of those wanting to help and that we
can get those efforts re-directed to projects where we can make a difference
no matter how big or small.
Mark's comment about teaming up with the Ham radio community is 
actually a
very good idea. If anyone thinks they would like to pursue this I am in a
position to start this process.



Thank You,
Brian Webster N2KGC
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: Steve Stroh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 10:57 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Kelly WISP Incident



(While I haven't followed the WISPA list very closely lately, I saw
some postings there about Kelly that led me to believe that I should
also post this on the WISPA General list. It was originally posted to
the emergency-relief list.)

On Saturday, September 7, 2005, the team of WISPs pre-positioned at the
former Kelly Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas to provide Internet
access for the large Hurricane Katrina relief camp there discovered
that SBC has been onsite at Kelly for approximately one week installing
communications infrastructure. SBC personnel stated that SBC would be
able to provide all telephone and Internet access that the relief camp
will need.

 To understand this turn of events, a brief sequence of events is in
order.

1)   In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the FCC requested various
entities nominally under its jurisdiction to keep it informed of
capabilities and plans to restore communications in the affected area.

2)   PART-15.ORG responded to the FCC request, explaining that WISPs in
the affected area were asking for donated systems and labor to provide
Internet access to relief shelters and key agencies such as law
enforcement agencies whose facilities were no longer usable or
operational.

3)   Following up on PART-15.ORG’s input, the FCC requested PART-15.ORG
to submit more detailed “capabilities” documentation. As part of such
documentation, a “template” plan for providing communications to the
recently designated relief shelter at Kelly Air Force Base was
included. The “Kelly plan” would provide wireless backhaul, inter-base
distribution, Wi-Fi in all shelter areas, VOIP telephony, and computers
for shelter resident use, most of which would be operational within 48
hours of access to the base.

4)   The FCC was impressed with the “Kelly plan”, enough so to provide
it to ARC Headquarters IT staff.

5)   On Saturday, September 3, PART-15.ORG was told by the FCC that
“The Kelly Plan is a go.” (Exact quote.)

6)   Within 24 hours of “Go”, PART-15.ORG mobilized volunteers,
donations, and began developing a management infrastructure to manage
the numerous and overlapping tasks.

7)   For an entire week, the growing team of WISPs contacted Kelly
personnel, made technology plans, arranged logistics, and everything
else they could do without actual access onto the base. PART-15.ORG
tried continuously to arrange access through their FCC contacts, and
the local team pressed on its local contacts to arrange access.

8)   On Saturday, Sepember 10, the team of WISPs learns of SBC’s work
at Kelly.

Learning of SBC’s work at Kelly was disheartening, to say the least.
For one, the WISP team came fully prepared to install infrastructure
equivalent to SBC’s efforts, but based on Wireless Internet technology,
enabling the installation to be largely complete within 48 hours of
access to the facilities… stymied only by lack of access to Kelly.

One of the most disturbing things about “Kelly WISP incident” is that
the FCC and ARC squandered WISP industry resources by requesting
support for Kelly- resources that would have otherwise been deployed to
support WISPs working directly in the affected areas. The WISP
community invested great effort in mobilizing resources to Kelly –
equipment, labor, design time, formation of an extended management
team, numerous conference calls, time taken away from jobs resulting in
missed paychecks, submission of endless revisions of paperwork to the
FCC, the sleepless nights spent planning for Kelly… the list goes on.
It’s small consolatio

RE: [WISPA] Fw: MapInfo Offers Hurricane Disaster Relief Assistance

[Brian Webster]

Title: MapInfo Offers Hurricane Disaster Relief Assistance - 9/7/2005 4:23:37 PM



Marlon,
    Thanks for this info! I have a call in to them to try and get data 
sets on Telco and utility infrastructure. I will integrate this information, as 
I get it, in the mapping that I am sending to Mac's group.
 
Thank You,
Brian Webster
214 Eggleston Hill Rd.
Cooperstown, NY 13326
(518) 207-0036 Office Please note new 
number
(607) 435-3988 Mobile
(208) 692-1898 Fax
www.wirelessmapping.comFree World 
Dialup #481416

  -Original Message-From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 
  982-2181 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, September 08, 
  2005 11:42 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: Rochelle Paulet; Mac 
  Dearman; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org; 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WISPA] Fw: MapInfo Offers 
  Hurricane Disaster Relief Assistance
  Hi All,
   
  Thought that this might be of interest to some of 
  you.
   
  Marlon(509) 
  982-2181   
  Equipment sales(408) 907-6910 
  (Vonage)    
  Consulting services42846865 
  (icq)    
  And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
   
   
  - Original Message - 
  From: MapInfo 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 1:23 PM
  Subject: MapInfo Offers Hurricane Disaster Relief 
  Assistance
  
  
  
  


  

  
  


  

  

  
  CONTACT 

  
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  UNSUBSCRIBE
  

  
  

  


  

  

  
  
 
  
To forward 
  this email to a colleague, enter their email address 
  below:
  

  
  


  


  

   
  

  
  
  

  
 

  


   

  

  
  

  


  
September 7, 
2005
Dear Friends and 
Colleagues, 
In light of the 
tragic devastation of Hurricane Katrina, 
MapInfo® Corporation would like to 
volunteer our services where appropriate and 
where we are able to assist with the rescue and 
recovery efforts.For those unfamiliar with MapInfo, we 
provide software, data and services that allow 
you to map individuals, assets and geographies. 
In this time of recovery, we can assist 
with:
Creating and posting 
Internet and/or physical maps of affected 
locations, utilities, telecommunication 
infrastructure, etc.Tracking assets, such as 
equipment and emergency services; 
andDeveloping maps of relief 
locations including blood banks, hospitals, 
kitchens and shelters. 
If you are a 
current MapInfo licensee, we will waive, where 
appropriate, license restrictions during the 
declared disaster period. Whether you're a 
current customer or not, we would be pleased to 
produce these maps or provide the software 
and/or data necessary to assist in the 
production o

RE: [WISPA] Re: [Emergency-Relief] CLIMBERS NEEDED BAD!!

[Brian Webster]

Mac,
See if you can contact any of the Ham Radio Operators down there. They
should be on the air and might have a few folks in the group who are tower
climbers and would have their gear with them. Maybe you have some hams in
your crew already who would have radios with them to make contact directly.
If you can't make any contact let me know and I'll work it from this end.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
214 Eggleston Hill Rd.
Cooperstown, NY 13326
(518) 207-0036 Office Please note new number
(607) 435-3988 Mobile
(208) 692-1898 Fax
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: Mac Dearman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 10:48 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Re: [Emergency-Relief] CLIMBERS NEEDED BAD!!


Bullit, Rick and all

We are in desperate need of a couple tower climbing crews. I have a
fractured Tibia and my foot & leg is swollen as big as my wifes head. We
have TLINK10s to deploy (THANKS TRANGO BROADBAND) and I think we are
about to get all the bandwidth via my fiber we can use. Please, please
- no newbies for tower climbers. We dont want anyone hurt PERIOD. Please
bring your own rigging and safety gear.

I also have access to towers from I-20 corridor in N. Louisiana to
I-10 Corridor  in Southern La. and East across the entire Southern
Louisiana that run to just west of Hattisburg Mississippi. I also think
we are going to be FEMA sanctioned in the next few minutes as they have
called and blessed our efforts here this morning. With or without FEMA's
cards  - - the march has started!!

  Thanks,

--
Mac Dearman
Maximum Access, LLC.
www.inetsouth.com
318-728-8600 - Rayville
318-303-4229
318-303-4231
318-450-4349 - Monroe, La
318-303-4227 - NOC




Bullit wrote:

> This is an urgent request for everyone who is aware of ANY shelter,
> camp or other individual or group location that is need of
> communcations to please complete the online form
> http://www.part-15.org/emergencyrelief/shelter1.asp so we can ship
> them the needed personnel or equipment.
>
> We are sending additional teams out and want to ensure we include all
> areas in need.
>
> Thanks
> Michael
>



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RE: [WISPA] WISPA Louisiana Crisis Center now operational

[Brian Webster]

Mac,
Yes I have and I have access to very accurate terrain data to make sure 
we
are on the money. I can also create terrain files showing every tree and
building in the path if you have access to high resolution aerial images. I
know things have been changed drastically since the storm but it looks like
there are companies flying and getting new aerial photography. If you need
real critical path studies done and we are marginal, getting access to that
data could be a big help, keep your eyes and ears open for that type of
information. We may need it at some point. I'm here for you guys. Let me
take some of the load off and keep you working in the field.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
214 Eggleston Hill Rd.
Cooperstown, NY 13326
(518) 207-0036 Office Please note new number
(607) 435-3988 Mobile
(208) 692-1898 Fax
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: Mac Dearman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 9:09 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List; matt larsen
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISPA Louisiana Crisis Center now operational


Brian,

  You are a good guy and we will need some assistance from time to time
as we put up some of these longer links that we havent calculated yet.
Dumb question coming at you here - - - -  but very important - - -- -
have you done microwave path anaysis before?  We don't need any first
time climbers either :-)

Thanks Bro,


--
Mac Dearman
Maximum Access, LLC.
www.inetsouth.com
318-728-8600 - Rayville
318-303-4229
318-303-4231
318-450-4349 - Monroe, La
318-303-4227 - NOC


Brian Webster wrote:

>Matt, Mac and the crew;
>   While I'm not able to help out down there right now, I am willing to 
> give
>you guys engineering support. If you need path studies and coverage maps
>done just say the word. I'll crank them out as fast as I can. I know it's
>not much but it will probably help when things get more complicated down
>there. I can also help put together a comprehensive map of the whole
network
>you put together in case you need to report it to anyone.
>
>
>
>Thank You,
>Brian Webster
>214 Eggleston Hill Rd.
>Cooperstown, NY 13326
>(518) 207-0036 Office Please note new number
>(607) 435-3988 Mobile
>(208) 692-1898 Fax
>www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
>Free World Dialup #481416
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Matt Larsen - Lists [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 2:08 AM
>To: WISPA General List ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [WISPA] WISPA Louisiana Crisis Center now operational
>
>
>Hello all,
>
>We now have the WISPA Louisiana Crisis Center setup at Mac Dearman's HQ
>in Rayville, Louisiana.  If anyone wants to call and coordinate
>volunteer help, equipment or press contacts, please call one of our two
>toll-free lines:
>
>866-225-3715
>866-221-6237
>
>You can also contact me via email at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>A record of our efforts and projects underway will be online at
>http://www.thelar.com/
>
>We have a group of 12 people on hand right now and are organizing the
>available equipment and deployment assignments for the rest of the
>week.  We now have the "WISP tent shelter" set up in Mac's front yard
>and most everyone has turned in for bed so we can get a good start on
>things tomorrow.
>
>Here is a short summary of the equipment we have on hand, the equipment
>we are expecting, equipment needed and projects that we will be working
>on for tomorrow:
>
>Here is our list of assets:
>
>5 vehicles (including three capable of installs)
>2 3'  5.8Ghz dishes (from PacWireless)
>2 StarOS Point to Point Links (from Jeffco SOHO)
>2 Trango TLink10 links (from Trango)
>1 Vivato AP/Bridge (from Excelsio Communications)
>2 BSD Servers (from Infotex)
>1 Linux Server (fom Infotex)
>10 Mesh wireless CPE/AP boxes (from Center for Neighborhood Technology)
>6 Orinoco Ethernet Converter boxes (from BSC)
>3 8db 2.4Ghz Omni Antennas (from BSC)
>1 15db 2.4Ghz Omni Antenna (from BSC)
>2 Cisco 1900 APs (from BSC)
>3 18db Flat Panel Antennas (from BSC)
>3 AP3 Access Points  (from BSC)
>8 Orinoco Cards (from BSC)
>1 AP 1000 AP (from Business Systems Connection)
>10 Aeronaut CPE units (from Jeffco SOHO)
>25 900mhz mobile antennas (from Steve Field)
>
>ON THE WAY (estimated ETA Thursday morning)
>2 2' 5.8Ghz Dishes (from Microcom)
>2 3' 5.8Ghz Dishes (from Microcom)
>10 18db 2.4Ghz panel antennas (from Microcom)
>15 Deliberant 2.4Ghz CPE radios (from Deliberant Wireless)
>300 Nortel Baystack 10/100 managed switches (from Biltmore Communications)
>
>AVAILABLE ON DEMAND:
>Win

RE: [WISPA] WISPA Louisiana Crisis Center now operational

[Brian Webster]

Matt, Mac and the crew;
While I'm not able to help out down there right now, I am willing to 
give
you guys engineering support. If you need path studies and coverage maps
done just say the word. I'll crank them out as fast as I can. I know it's
not much but it will probably help when things get more complicated down
there. I can also help put together a comprehensive map of the whole network
you put together in case you need to report it to anyone.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
214 Eggleston Hill Rd.
Cooperstown, NY 13326
(518) 207-0036 Office Please note new number
(607) 435-3988 Mobile
(208) 692-1898 Fax
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: Matt Larsen - Lists [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 2:08 AM
To: WISPA General List ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WISPA] WISPA Louisiana Crisis Center now operational


Hello all,

We now have the WISPA Louisiana Crisis Center setup at Mac Dearman's HQ
in Rayville, Louisiana.  If anyone wants to call and coordinate
volunteer help, equipment or press contacts, please call one of our two
toll-free lines:

866-225-3715
866-221-6237

You can also contact me via email at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

A record of our efforts and projects underway will be online at
http://www.thelar.com/

We have a group of 12 people on hand right now and are organizing the
available equipment and deployment assignments for the rest of the
week.  We now have the "WISP tent shelter" set up in Mac's front yard
and most everyone has turned in for bed so we can get a good start on
things tomorrow.

Here is a short summary of the equipment we have on hand, the equipment
we are expecting, equipment needed and projects that we will be working
on for tomorrow:

Here is our list of assets:

5 vehicles (including three capable of installs)
2 3'  5.8Ghz dishes (from PacWireless)
2 StarOS Point to Point Links (from Jeffco SOHO)
2 Trango TLink10 links (from Trango)
1 Vivato AP/Bridge (from Excelsio Communications)
2 BSD Servers (from Infotex)
1 Linux Server (fom Infotex)
10 Mesh wireless CPE/AP boxes (from Center for Neighborhood Technology)
6 Orinoco Ethernet Converter boxes (from BSC)
3 8db 2.4Ghz Omni Antennas (from BSC)
1 15db 2.4Ghz Omni Antenna (from BSC)
2 Cisco 1900 APs (from BSC)
3 18db Flat Panel Antennas (from BSC)
3 AP3 Access Points  (from BSC)
8 Orinoco Cards (from BSC)
1 AP 1000 AP (from Business Systems Connection)
10 Aeronaut CPE units (from Jeffco SOHO)
25 900mhz mobile antennas (from Steve Field)

ON THE WAY (estimated ETA Thursday morning)
2 2' 5.8Ghz Dishes (from Microcom)
2 3' 5.8Ghz Dishes (from Microcom)
10 18db 2.4Ghz panel antennas (from Microcom)
15 Deliberant 2.4Ghz CPE radios (from Deliberant Wireless)
300 Nortel Baystack 10/100 managed switches (from Biltmore Communications)

AVAILABLE ON DEMAND:
Windows XP Licenses (Microsoft)
StarOS Licenses (Station-Server and Jeffco SOHO)

NEEDED EQUIPMENT:

PCs with keyboards, mice and monitors
VOIP Phones

IMMEDIATE DEPLOYMENT PLANS:

Wednesday:
Link from Baskin to Gilbert, La
Link from Delhi to Tolulah, La
Turn on three shelters with PCs and VOIP phones in Talulah, LA
Document Inetsouth.com network in Visio
Establish three separate teams - VOIP, wireless and network
Strategic planning for Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday projects

Please call or email with any information.  Thanks from all of us here
for your help and moral support.  We intend to make the WISP industry proud!

Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [WISPA] Re: [Emergency-Relief] update from La.

[Brian Webster]

God bless you and the crews Mac.



Brian


-Original Message-
From: Mac Dearman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Re: [Emergency-Relief] update from La.


Good evening list,

 I thought I would give you all an update on whats going on here. 
Jim Patient (ST. Louis, Mo.   www.jefcosoho.com.), myself and Steve Milton
 (Seattle, Wawww.isomedia.com)  have connected two more shelters 
with High speed Internet and VOIP phones as well as PCs that will enable 
them to fill out their FEMA, RedCross and unemployment applications  as 
well as assist in finding their lost family and friends.

   I will fill out the form that Bullit has requested of me and would 
have done that before now, but I just havent had time. We just walked in 
the door here at my home 20 minutes ago and had the first hot meal in 
two days. I appreciate anything that any of you have done/will do for 
anyone in Louisiana, Mississippi or Texas as they to are over burdened 
with evacuees.

   I have been overwhelmed with the amount of help that is headed this 
way. I won't turn down any help until we get these shelters up to speed. 
It seems that the shelters have heard that we are doing this and they 
are absolutely popping up out of the wood work. We had a call from 3 
shelters in Tallulah, La. this evening with one housing 127 evacuees and 
had several more whole families on the way. I know that there is a crew 
coming out of (5)Chicago, a crew from Atlanta(7 men) some folks from 
Indianapolis, and (5?) from Southern California. When we get these 
shelters in the surrounding Parishes connected I will have completed 
scouting out shelters further to the south in need of connectivity and 
VOIP until we are out of gear or NOLA is opened up and/or Part15 takes 
the lead and sends us elsewhere.

 I have staff here in the office (Sharon) that is coordinating our 
efforts and fielding calls if anyone has any further questions. Please 
feel free to call.

  There is plenty to be done and all these men headed this way are 
really wanting to "wade out" in the water and get their feet wet. It 
will put them a little closer to the action and in a good position when 
the call comes from Part-15.  I am glad to have all the help and all the 
gear to make things a little easier on these folks.


Now - - I will fill out that paper work and have another cold brewskie  :-)

Thanks Men,
Mac Dearman
www.inetsouth.com
728-8600






Bullit wrote:

> Paul
>  
> Please don't take this wrong, but some of the delay in sending out P15 
> support teams is because I no longer have a handle on how much support 
> MAC Dearman now needs because of all those people taking the inititive 
> to go there on their own.
>  
> I have asked Mac and others close to him to please complete the P15 
> form about shelter locations needing assistance. Other than a few 
> comments passing around on different lists, we still do not have a 
> clear picture of what Mac needs and what he has too much of.
>  
>  You guys are sure making it harder for me to get the 
> help deployed.
>  
> Good luck and I hope you can provide meaning support to those in need. 
> If you need anything, don't hesitate to ask.
>  
> Michael
>  
>  
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Paul Smith 
> *To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> *Sent:* Monday, September 05, 2005 5:58 PM
> *Subject:* [Emergency-Relief] Community wireless networking
> advance team about to leave Chicago
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I just wanted to let folks know I'll be hitting the road in a
> minivan with my colleague Rogers Wilson from Chicago heading for
> Mac Dearman's farm in northern Louisiana later this evening. We
> will push through the night and try to arrive sometime tomorrow
> morning. We'll immediately start giving Mac a hand with his
> efforts, and I'll be also assessing the situation in the area and
> helping to receive more CWN volunteers. So if you are a CWN
> volunteer and are looking for a place to go, Mac's farm is it, and
> we'll be on the ground there soon.
>
> Give me a call on my mobile (773) 934-4607, there may be patchy
> areas as we're driving where we're out of touch, but then
> definitely check in again tomorrow after noon.
>
> -Paul
>
> -- 
> Paul Smith
> Center for Neighborhood Technology
> Technology Director, Wireless Community Networks
> Chicago IL, USA 
>


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RE: [WISPA] Nationwide Peering - WISPBONE

[Brian Webster]

Matt,
Is it possible to get a complete address list from them or maybe a lat 
long
list. If you have this from any others such as WilTel then I can start
combining this information on to one map. The end result of this will be a
web based map application where you can see what is available all in one
spot. This map will allow you to zoom and pan any way you need to. It seems
like we have some good interest in this idea if we can just start pulling
together some real data. These maps like the XO one are good but they don't
give me the data I need to create the comprehensive map.
If anyone else had similar type data where they are able to get cheap
bandwidth share the information. Even if it is just one site you know of it
will help populate the map, eventually we can get a nice big picture of the
whole country. Once that is known you can start figuring out if it will be
possible to serve your networks with wireless backhaul.



Thank You,
Brian Webster


-Original Message-
From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 2:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Nationwide Peering - WISPBONE


Find the closest POP to you on their map and let me know. I can get the
address from XO, so you can do a path analysis and determine if you can
do wireless to their roof. Their buildings are generally only 2 stories.

-Matt

Jory Privett wrote:

>I have seen the map.  My question is exactly where are they  and how do I
>gain access to them?  Copper and Fiber are out of the question for me
>because of ILEC pricing so I would have to have some type of wireless link.
>
>Jory Privett
>WCCS
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "WISPA General List" 
>Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 11:40 AM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Nationwide Peering - WISPBONE
>
>
>XO's map is available at their web site.
>
>-Matt
>
>Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
>
>
>
>>Is there a list so we can all see the locations?  Are you able to get
>>principal members of WISPA any deals?
>>
>>Brian
>>
>>Jory Privett wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I would be interested in finding out if one of there switches is in my
>>>area.
>>>
>>>Jory Privett
>>>WCCS
>>>
>>>- Original Message -
>>>From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 8:34 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Nationwide Peering - WISPBONE
>>>
>>>
>>>We have a national wholesale agreement with XO, which among other things
>>>can get us very low cost colo and roof rights at their switches.
>>>
>>>-Matt
>>>
>>>Anthony Will wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>In central MN here also.   I would be very interested in a project
>>>>such as this.  This is the ONLY way we will truly survive.  I am
>>>>currently working on a way to get into the Metro area to gain access
>>>>to cheap pipes.  Hopefully we will end up in XO's or calpops CO.
>>>>
>>>>See how easy it is to get something like this started.  I know that I
>>>>am south of Mike.  I also know that two other WISPs are south of me
>>>>all the way to Iowa.  Now if we can get those guys on board anyone in
>>>>Iowa or Illanios is likely close enough to make this real.  NOW from
>>>>Illanios it really opens up.  I am an old friend to an operation
>>>>on the west side of Chicago connected to Equinix, one of the largest
>>>>carriers hotels in the nation.  Now with all the wisps together we
>>>>could easily afford an OCx and get some real pricing.  And with
>>>>everyone sharing in the expense we could make this licensed equipment
>>>>for a rock solid backbone for all of our networks.
>>>>
>>>>Anthony Will
>>>>Ruralnet Inc.
>>>>www.veryfastinternet.com (please excuse the cheesy site.  We are in
>>>>process of completely reworking a new site.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mike Bushard Jr wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm in, Central MN
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike Bushard Jr
>>>>>Reliable Internet Services
>>>>>1st Rate Computers
>>>>>
>>>>>-Original Message-
>>>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>>>>Behalf Of Brian Webster
>>>>>Sent: 

RE: [WISPA] Nationwide Peering - WISPBONE

[Brian Webster]

Hi Brian,
Well we led a session that started a dialog on this topic. It got quite
loud at times. The end result was I am willing to donate time to map out
in one location all of the data people send me with locations of POP's,
fiber hotels and other inexpensive sources of bandwidth. This could be from
any source like fiber (lit or dark) or companies that have bandwidth to
sell. If there are WISP's who want to share the backbones they have, we can
map them too. I basically just need a list of locations by lat and long or
street address. If I can get enough different sources of data I will map it
and make it available on line. The idea is that WISP's can see how far away
from cheap backhaul they really are and then they can figure out a way to
bring it to their location. This could also serve as a way to get regional
groups together to build a mutually beneficial backbone. The mapping can
have clickable information about each site if that is included in the data
sent.
If this starts to take off the idea was suggested that a national group 
or
co-op be formed to manage this backbone so that one person or company could
not bring down or segment part of the network. There were many ideas and
issues brought up about this. I don't want to get this thread started on all
of that. I really just want to see where were are with access to cheap
bandwidth and how we might be able to stitch together an ad hoc backbone for
the time being. Anyone who is interested in this project please send me an
email with WISPBONE in the subject line. I will create a distribution list
for now and if we get it going we can set up a list somewhere to have an
online forum. To date I have no input from any of the people who were in the
session. Just like most of these good ideas, I feel it will die because
everyone is too busy with their own business and they hope someone else will
get it going.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>
Free World Dialup #481416


-Original Message-
From: Brian Rohrbacher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 12:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Nationwide Peering


I was told to bring this up after WiNog.  Well...

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RE: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

[Brian Webster]

I'll reply to that.
People with money do not have to spend it. Remember that most of all. They
can easily invest it in a conservative location and get a safe secure rate
of return. Remember they don't need to spend it so they don't need a big
rate of return on money that already don't need to spend. Still with me? Now
if they were to invest in something as risky as this, they would need one
hell of a possible gain on their investment. Remember they don't need to
spend it. For them to even talk to you about giving you some of their money
they must think it is a good idea. If they are willing to fork over their
money, they must feel they are going to be able to get a huge return to
justify their risk. So let's review. One they will get a huge return on
their investment, Two if they aren't charging you a huge interest rate,
where do you think they will get the return. Which brings us to Three, they
will take control of your company, learn all they can from you then fire you
and keep it all to themselves. Harsh but true, I'm sure there are many on
the list who know of these stories.
Now leasing doesn't look all that bad does it? At least you know the
costs up front and the rules are quite simple. Just pay your payments then
eventually you will get to keep the company and reap the benefits of your
hard work, not just hand it over to the folks who wrote the checks. If you
don't think I'm serious, try to write contracts so this can't happen and see
how fast they write the checks :-)

Like Charles said, unless it's family or friends.but even then it
can be tricky, that's a good way to lose friends.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
-Original Message-
From: Dylan Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:10 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


Charles,

would you expand on that?


On 8/22/05, Charles Wu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
FWIW...no invester (other than friends and family) worth their salt will be
willing to invest capital into the company for a minority position, as that
is basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of their money

That said, there is a fool born every day

-Charles


--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC

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RE: [WISPA] PowerNOC Help Needed

[Brian Webster]

Gerry,
    The PowerNOC guys were at the WINOG show this week. Maybe they 
were slow in responding due to that, just speculation but I did speak with them 
there.
 
Thank You,
Brian Webster

 
 -Original Message-From: 
Gerry Hohn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, August 19, 
2005 11:55 AMTo: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: [WISPA] 
PowerNOC Help Needed

   
  My client is a new WISP here in Western 
  Canada. He has purchased a PowerNOC system to do billing and Bandwidth 
  Management but has been unable to get the PowerNOC working. He's had trouble 
  getting satisfactory support from the vendor.
   
  I'd like to hear from PowerNOC users as to 
  their experiences with this product from an implementation, operation and 
  support prospective. I'm reluctant to recommend my client look to another 
  supplier at this point as from what I can gather from the internet, PowerNOC 
  seems to be a popular product and I've seen no negative comments.
   
  As my client has limited experience and 
  expertise, I'd be interested if there is a PowerNOC user that would be 
  interested in assisting in getting my clients system up and 
  running.
   
  Also, we would appreciate any other 
  comments or recommendations in regards to billing and BMU option.
   
  Thanks for your help,
   
  Gerry Gerry HohnTelWest 
  Consulting Services(403) 251-6520 - office(403) 803-8170 - 
  cell(403) 251-0384 - fax[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.telusplanet.net/public/telwest/home.htm
   
   
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RE: [WISPA] Nationwide Peering

[Brian Webster]

There is a session at WiNOG called WISPBONE and it is going to try an
address this topic. We'll keep you posted after the show to see if there is
any real interest. The basic idea is to see who wants to play and let their
backbone be part of it, then map out all the parties and their links. After
that we add all the major fiber players who have serious backhaul POPs that
we could get access to. Hopefully this will show a large network nationwide.
It may just be a pipe dream but we hope to get people interested in the
idea. Who knows, with the right players there may be close to the nationwide
link. It sure would be nice to eliminate the RBOCS. I remember back in the
early cellular days, the way they were able to finally deliver calls from
one market to the other was to link in the neighboring systems, once they
did that they magically had a nationwide network. If we map out all the WISP
players, we might show close to the same concept. There would have to be
many other details hammered out, but if we can show a good start to this
network it may give enough people interest to make it a reality.


Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com>



-Original Message-
From: Brian Rohrbacher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:26 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Nationwide Peering


Any thoughts on this?  It was talked about at WiNog 1, but not too much
since.  Are we working on getting connected from "sea to shining sea"?
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RE: [WISPA] Fw: [TVWHITESPACE] NYT on WiFi and Police Use

[Brian Webster]

I wonder how accurate this article is. I designed part of this network as the 
third or fourth deep sub-contractor through Lockheed Martin. As far as I can 
remember there was no design to cover the whole County such that you could 
drive down the road anywhere and have it work. I did do a lot of point to point 
work and created areas where emergency response teams would have a wi-fi cloud 
at pre-determined staging areas. Sounds like marketing is getting the best of 
things here. I could be wrong, maybe I was not aware of the complete network 
design.



Thank You,
Brian Webster

-Original Message-
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:51 AM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Fw: [TVWHITESPACE] NYT on WiFi and Police Use



Subject: [TVWHITESPACE] NYT on WiFi and Police Use


> FYI - Mike Marcus
> ==
>
> August 7, 2005
> When Pigs Wi-Fi
> By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
>
> HERMISTON, Ore.
>
> This is cowboy country, where the rodeo is coming to town, the high 
> school's "kiss the pig" contest involves a genuine hog, and life seems 
> about as high-tech as the local calf-dressing competition, when teams race 
> to wrestle protesting calves into T-shirts.
>
> But Hermiston is actually a global leader of our Internet future. Today, 
> this chunk of arid farm country appears to be the largest Wi-Fi hot spot 
> in the world, with wireless high-speed Internet access available free for 
> some 600 square miles. Most of that is in eastern Oregon, with some just 
> across the border in southern Washington.
>
> Driving along the road here, I used my laptop to get e-mail and download 
> video - and you can do that while cruising at 70 miles per hour, mile 
> after mile after mile, at a transmission speed several times as fast as a 
> T-1 line. (Note: it's preferable to do this with someone else driving.)
>
> This kind of network is the wave of the future, and eastern Oregon shows 
> that it's technically and financially feasible. New York and other leading 
> cities should be embarrassed that Morrow and Umatilla Counties in eastern 
> Oregon are far ahead of them in providing high-speed Internet coverage to 
> residents, schools and law enforcement officers - even though all of 
> Morrow County doesn't even have a single traffic light.
>
> The big cities should take note, said Kim Puzey, the general manager of 
> the Port of Umatilla on the Columbia River here. "We'd like people to say, 
> 'If they can do it out in the boondocks with a small population, that 
> model can be applied to highly complex areas,' " he said.
>
> Mr. Puzey, who says wireless broadband is central to the port's 
> operations, argues persuasively that broadband is just the next step in 
> expanding the national infrastructure, comparable to the transcontinental 
> railroad, the national highway system and rural electrification.
>
> Indeed, we need to envision broadband Internet access as just another 
> utility, like electricity or water. Often the best way to provide that 
> will be to blanket a region with Wi-Fi coverage to create wireless 
> computer networks, rather than running D.S.L., cable or fiber-optic lines 
> to every home.
>
> So if the first step was to get Americans wired, the next step is to make 
> them wireless.
>
> Two pioneers in that process are Portland, Ore., and Philadelphia, which 
> are both moving toward citywide Wi-Fi Internet access. Consumers will 
> still have to pay for broadband, but only about half as much as they do 
> now.
>
> Still, Portland and Philadelphia won't have their systems in place until 
> next year. Meanwhile, the system in eastern Oregon covers a larger 
> geographic area, is free for consumers and has been up and running for 
> more than a year and a half.
>
> One reason it sprang up here is that a nearby Army depot contains chemical 
> weapons, so there is special concern about what would happen if a cloud of 
> nerve gas escaped from the depot. That fear helped provide a pot of 
> federal money to underwrite safety systems.
>
> Usually, the police and fire agencies communicate just by radio, but 
> Hermiston decided to go with a public-private partnership that established 
> a Wi-Fi network. The police chief, Dan Coulombe, showed me the wireless 
> computers that all police officers now carry. They can download data and 
> receive images from video monitors - and, if nerve gas ever escaped, 
> display the cloud's direction and speed.
>
> Fingerprint readers are now being added to these portable devices so a 
> police officer can almost instantly run a person's fingerprint through a 
> multistate database. And if there's

RE: [WISPA] Fwd: FCC expected to officially propose DSL deregulationonThursday

[Brian Webster]

Ah,
    But don't forget Craig McCaw and Clearwire. They have been quietly 
buying licenses and setting up to deploy wireless broadband nationwide. This guy 
built two major wireless empires before (Cellular One - sold it to AT&T and 
Nextel). He will be ready to pounce on the market that gets caught high and dry. 

    As far as backhaul, remember there is a lot of dark fiber in the 
US and other companies (Wiltel comes to mind) that provide big pipes and 
backhaul services. I know they aren't always where we need them but they can be 
of help. This group is made up of wireless operators, we can create backhauls 
and networks to get around this problem. It won't be easy and it won't be cheap 
but alas you could be free of the RBOC's. Seems like FiberTower might be in a 
good position to help out too. They certainly will be on many towers where your 
sites are, if not they should be within a backhaul shot to another tower that 
has connectivity. It's time to think outside the box again. If anyone can figure 
a way around this problem, this group can. Think of the possibilities of an RBOC 
free network, when the VOIP companies can't get traffic through other networks, 
where do you think they will go, can you say wholesale backhaul too? It's just 
going to take a lot of cooperation and group thinking. This will be a huge 
challenge for all of the small operators who are just able to keep up with 
their day to day operations. It does seem like the only way out in the long run. 
Might be a good time to attend the WISPBONE session at WINOG, this is exactly 
what will be discussed, it now has more urgency.
 
Thank You,
Brian Webster

 
 -Original Message-From: 
Tom DeReggi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, August 
03, 2005 9:06 PMTo: Dylan Oliver; WISPA General 
ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] Fwd: FCC expected to officially propose DSL 
deregulationonThursday

  AOL and Earthlinks don't need us.  They will 
  build their own. We just get more competition in the Wireless 
  world.
  ILECs stop having competition, WISPs start having 
  competition. The WISP indistry grows, but existing WISPs start to feel the 
  squeeze.
  The independant ISP is our friend. Most likely if 
  they die, its just a matter of time before we do. 
   
  Should the vote go as planned in favor of the 
  ILECs, it will once again be a sad day, like last FEB 2003.  Sorta like 
  in StarWars, when the Deathstar blew up Princess Leah's home planet as a 
  demonstration of its power, feeling a super void in the force as millions of 
  people were destroyed in a split second.  Only ISP would be 
  equivellent to the People on the planet that got destroyed.
   
  The truth is, probably nobody will 
  notice any difference initially when the vote happens, but slowly behind 
  the scenes the effects will be seen stronger and stronger as time goes on, and 
  eventually leveraged to the full advantage to wipe out independant 
  competition.
   
  AS soon as you have 7000 indpendant ISPs, and the 
  TOP 10 Giant ISPs like AOL and Earthlinks trying to deploy their own networks 
  in unlicense, what do you think will happen? I can tell you the recent 
  allocation of 3650 surely isn't enough to solve the problem that will quickly 
  become apparent.
   
  Just my 2 cents.
   
  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
   
   
    
   
   
   
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Dylan 
Oliver 
To: WISPA General List 
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:26 
PM
Subject: [WISPA] Fwd: FCC expected to 
officially propose DSL deregulation onThursday

"If the vote goes according 
to Mr. Martin's plan, and the telecommunications companies find themselves 
free of the requirement that they open their broadband networks to 
competitors, it could have an immediate effect on ISPs such as America 
Online and EarthLink. This fall, they could find themselves scrambling for 
broadband alternatives. " 
 
How 'bout them alternatives? 
How you all doing on the build-out of your Open Provider Networks? Come on. 
AOL may need you! -- Forwarded message 
--From: Fergie 
(Paul Ferguson) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 
Aug 3, 2005 12:27 PMSubject: FCC expected to officially propose DSL 
deregulation on ThursdayTo: nanog@merit.edu"United 
States Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin is 
expected to officially propose thederegulation of DSL services from 
telecommunicationscarriers on Thursday."http://www.redherring.com/article.aspx?a=13022 
- ferg--"Fergie", a.k.a. Paul 
FergusonEngineering Architecture for the Internet[EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]ferg's 
tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC 



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RE: [WISPA] 5.8 GHz PtP - weaker RSLs

[Brian Webster]

I'm purely speculating here, but my thought is that somehow there may 
have
been a solar flare or storm sometime during the day and the resulting
interference reached us at the times you have all mentioned. The
interference could have been just weak enough that unless a particular unit
had enough gain and or antenna positioning to capture the signal it would
not bother particular units in the field while others experienced problems.
Scriv can probably attest to the sunspot activity and the problems from his
cable TV days on their satellite downlinks. The sun is a broadband
transmitter of noise, sometimes the signals are organized and powerful
enough to bother our terrestrial systems. While it is true that the greatest
and most common effects are in the VHF and shortwave ranges it is not the
only frequency range to experience problems.
In thinking about the thermal "ducting" that can happen with signals, I
think with this problem it is unlikely since those situations are usually a
localized event at higher frequencies. An alternate explanation could be a
problem with firmware that might be aware of date and time which popped up
as a bug. I'm not that knowledgeable in Trango gear to know if the units are
time synchronized to anything for this to be a possibility.



Thank You,
Brian Webster


-Original Message-
From: David E. Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:28 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] 5.8 GHz PtP - weaker RSLs


On 2 Aug 2005 at 12:56, Brian Webster wrote:

> Since different people saw the same problem in multiple locations I would
> suspect a propagation problem, probably as a result of solar activity.

While possible, there's one thing that just makes that sound really weird.

We're using Trango gear as well, and (as Scriv mentioned) saw some similar
problems last night...

One of our Trango APs has two client SUs associated. Both links are about
nine
miles, but the endpoints are only about three miles apart, on the same state
highway. Think of it as a "V" shape, where the AP is at the bottom of the V.
And the V is actually pointing west-to-east. But whatever.

One of those links went completely bananas, lost about 10dB of signal,
dropped
connection all over the place. The other didn't skip a beat.

I have another, similar, link that did the same thing last night. One AP,
three
SUs. One went bonkers, the other two were things of beauty and perfection.
Again, the endpoints are only a couple miles apart.

[newbie mode ON!]

Is solar flare activity really sufficiently "random" that this is plausible?
With clients on the same frequency, and so relatively close together, I'd
expect any really broad-scale interference to knock them all off at the same
time, instead of just doing so randomly.

David Smith
MVN.net
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RE: [WISPA] 5.8 GHz PtP - weaker RSLs

[Brian Webster]

Since different people saw the same problem in multiple locations I would
suspect a propagation problem, probably as a result of solar activity.
Looking at this page shows some data http://www.n3kl.org/sun/noaa.html



Thank You,
Brian Webster


-Original Message-
From: John Scrivner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:41 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 5.8 GHz PtP - weaker RSLs


We had some Trango weirdness overnight also. We had 3 different links go
down at different times overnight but I do not have any specifics of why
at this time. Where were you seeing this trouble?
Scriv


Jeff Mabry wrote:

> Good Morning, WISPA.
>
> We have witnessed a decrease in five (5) TrangoLink10 5.8 GHz PtPs
> Received Signal Levels overnight. These links are deployed in various
> geographic locations with an average 12 miles of separation between
> tower sites. These links have been active for at least a year (some
> longer). A decrease anywhere from 3 to 8 dB has been recorded in the
> RSLs with the exception of one (1) link which has had a 7 dB boost in
> signal.
>
> Weather this morning is about the same as yesterday’s weather. Clear
> and 72 degrees.
>
> Did anyone else see lower signals this morning? This is a weird issue
> to wake up to.
>
> Thank you for your support.
>
> Jeff Mabry
>
> General Manager
>
> SlingShot Wireless Communications
>
> 618.735.2411 x 144
>
> 618.735.2907 (fax)
>
> 618.534.6407 (mobile)
>
> www.slingshotwireless.com <http://www.slingshotwireless.com>
>
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