Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Is this some place you could put some batteries and a solar panel or small windmill? John Jerry Richardson wrote: Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning toward a UPS. A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost less and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the batteries @ 24VDC. Thanks again Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gary Garrett Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Small generators do not auto start very reliably. When cold or dampness causes hard starting the starter can overheat and burn out. Generally you need an electric choke to start gas engines, propane can flood and need to rest before trying again, diesel can be REAL hard to start when cold. Auto starters can not adapt to changing conditions. Our best generator is a Propane Ford inline 6 cyl. 25 KW 3 phase. (1955 Model) The monitor cranks for 1 min then rests and tries 3 times. Everything is adjustable. It knows to stop cranking when it sees AC voltage from the Gen. so the motor over runs the starter for just a few seconds. Only a huge starter motor can take this abuse and last unattended. You may be money ahead to find out why the existing generator is not starting and get it fixed. Jerry Richardson wrote: We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Unless your equipment is tolerant of voltage swings, you will still probably want a DC-DC regulator, but that will likely be more efficient than a 12/24volt to 120 volt inverter. John Leon D. Zetekoff, NCE wrote: Hi Guys...I'd steer away from inverters since they soak up a lot of power. You might want to look at some solar stuff with some of the AGM batteries Marlon mentioned in another thread. Run everything @ 24V is good that way you don't need any dc-dc converters. Leon * os10ru...@gmail.com wrote, On 8/2/2009 3:27 PM: You might want something like an inverter (Xantrex for example) which includes a DC to AC inverter, battery charger, and automatic transfer switch. Add the batteries and you're done. Greg On Aug 2, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning toward a UPS. A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost less and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the batteries @ 24VDC. Thanks again Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gary Garrett Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Small generators do not auto start very reliably. When cold or dampness causes hard starting the starter can overheat and burn out. Generally you need an electric choke to start gas engines, propane can flood and need to rest before trying again, diesel can be REAL hard to start when cold. Auto starters can not adapt to changing conditions. Our best generator is a Propane Ford inline 6 cyl. 25 KW 3 phase. (1955 Model) The monitor cranks for 1 min then rests and tries 3 times. Everything is adjustable. It knows to stop cranking when it sees AC voltage from the Gen. so the motor over runs the starter for just a few seconds. Only a huge starter motor can take this abuse and last unattended. You may be money ahead to find out why the existing generator is not starting and get it fixed. Jerry Richardson wrote: We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.406 / Virus Database: 270.13.42/2278 - Release Date: 08/02/09 17:56:00 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Something like that. These guys have one that runs for 90 hours is 250 watts 12 or 24 VDC and uses a methanol and water mix. methane fuel cells don't use platinum and are, therefore, less expensive. Its configurable with an RS-232 port. It can be used as a battery charger as well so that if your system has dropped to battery, it will recharge the battery after its charge has dropped to a configurable level. Its pretty cool stuff. I was looking to backup power an entire data center with one of the larger ones a couple of years ago. There is a european company called BAXI that makes fuel cells as well. This one is perfect for the application requirements in the original email. I don't recall them as being that expensive either. http://www.idatech.com/Products-and-Services-iGen-System2.asp --Curtis Tom DeReggi wrote: Thanks PS. Isn't Hydrogen Fual Cell the technology Spring just got like $X billion grant to pioneer? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Curtis Maurand cmaur...@xyonet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Sorry, I should have posted this page. no moving parts. http://www.idatech.com/ Tom DeReggi wrote: Patrick, All excellent points, and reality checks. Thanks for the feedback! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on a commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum using even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting surface for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could be an issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections. Then the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed EC. I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All generators break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled models don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever, you won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power goes out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models) have contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to your site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell. Actually, we got a good 15 years out of the existing CD batteries, because we inherited them from Teligent days :-) But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt and decent run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters. (The Triplites worked really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight years. We matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice versa.) So our thought was Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time and load, and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges, power conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when batteries short out. Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now have duplicate need of devices to power. Some are AC devices like PC routers. Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear running on 48V. Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC and DC backup power subsystems. And how do we plan for load growth? How many new radios installed will be AC or DC? Unlicensed versus Licensed? We really dont know in advance. There is a lot of power waste going from AC to DC to AC to DC. The thought was... If long run time was accomplished by the propaine generator, both DC and AC battery subsystems could be installed with lower cost lower run-time batteries. We'd still need to account for max watts growth for each subsystem, but we could way reduce AH requirements for both subsystems. Or am I making this to complicated, and better just sticking with batteries :-) Chris Erikson's idea on solar panels sounded interesting. Although, I bet my ruthless roof rights
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
What do those cost? Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Curtis Maurand Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Something like that. These guys have one that runs for 90 hours is 250 watts 12 or 24 VDC and uses a methanol and water mix. methane fuel cells don't use platinum and are, therefore, less expensive. Its configurable with an RS-232 port. It can be used as a battery charger as well so that if your system has dropped to battery, it will recharge the battery after its charge has dropped to a configurable level. Its pretty cool stuff. I was looking to backup power an entire data center with one of the larger ones a couple of years ago. There is a european company called BAXI that makes fuel cells as well. This one is perfect for the application requirements in the original email. I don't recall them as being that expensive either. http://www.idatech.com/Products-and-Services-iGen-System2.asp --Curtis Tom DeReggi wrote: Thanks PS. Isn't Hydrogen Fual Cell the technology Spring just got like $X billion grant to pioneer? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Curtis Maurand cmaur...@xyonet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Sorry, I should have posted this page. no moving parts. http://www.idatech.com/ Tom DeReggi wrote: Patrick, All excellent points, and reality checks. Thanks for the feedback! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on a commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum using even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting surface for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could be an issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections. Then the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed EC. I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All generators break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled models don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever, you won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power goes out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models) have contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to your site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell. Actually, we got a good 15 years out of the existing CD batteries, because we inherited them from Teligent days :-) But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt and decent run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters. (The Triplites worked really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight years. We matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice versa.) So our thought was Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time and load, and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges, power conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when batteries short out. Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now have duplicate need of devices to power. Some are AC devices like PC routers. Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear running on 48V. Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC and DC backup power subsystems. And how do we plan for load growth? How many new radios installed will be AC or DC? Unlicensed versus Licensed? We really dont know in advance. There is a lot of power waste going from AC to DC to AC to DC. The thought was... If long run time was accomplished by the propaine generator, both DC and AC battery subsystems could be installed with lower cost lower run-time batteries. We'd still need to account for max watts growth
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
I called one of the resellers, $5-10k DEPENDING ON CONFIGURATION AND FUEL. I think an extra 8D at $205 would be more reliable and biannual replacement would pencil better...But they are COOL, and very small. At least that 250w unit is. cp -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:11 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator What do those cost? Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Curtis Maurand Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Something like that. These guys have one that runs for 90 hours is 250 watts 12 or 24 VDC and uses a methanol and water mix. methane fuel cells don't use platinum and are, therefore, less expensive. Its configurable with an RS-232 port. It can be used as a battery charger as well so that if your system has dropped to battery, it will recharge the battery after its charge has dropped to a configurable level. Its pretty cool stuff. I was looking to backup power an entire data center with one of the larger ones a couple of years ago. There is a european company called BAXI that makes fuel cells as well. This one is perfect for the application requirements in the original email. I don't recall them as being that expensive either. http://www.idatech.com/Products-and-Services-iGen-System2.asp --Curtis Tom DeReggi wrote: Thanks PS. Isn't Hydrogen Fual Cell the technology Spring just got like $X billion grant to pioneer? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Curtis Maurand cmaur...@xyonet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Sorry, I should have posted this page. no moving parts. http://www.idatech.com/ Tom DeReggi wrote: Patrick, All excellent points, and reality checks. Thanks for the feedback! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on a commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum using even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting surface for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could be an issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections. Then the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed EC. I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All generators break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled models don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever, you won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power goes out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models) have contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to your site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell. Actually, we got a good 15 years out of the existing CD batteries, because we inherited them from Teligent days :-) But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt and decent run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters. (The Triplites worked really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight years. We matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice versa.) So our thought was Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time and load, and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges, power conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when batteries short out. Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now have duplicate need of devices to power. Some are AC devices like PC routers. Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear running on 48V. Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC and DC
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Any ballpark figures? Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Curtis Maurand Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 11:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Something like that. These guys have one that runs for 90 hours is 250 watts 12 or 24 VDC and uses a methanol and water mix. methane fuel cells don't use platinum and are, therefore, less expensive. Its configurable with an RS-232 port. It can be used as a battery charger as well so that if your system has dropped to battery, it will recharge the battery after its charge has dropped to a configurable level. Its pretty cool stuff. I was looking to backup power an entire data center with one of the larger ones a couple of years ago. There is a european company called BAXI that makes fuel cells as well. This one is perfect for the application requirements in the original email. I don't recall them as being that expensive either. http://www.idatech.com/Products-and-Services-iGen-System2.asp --Curtis Tom DeReggi wrote: Thanks PS. Isn't Hydrogen Fual Cell the technology Spring just got like $X billion grant to pioneer? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Curtis Maurand cmaur...@xyonet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Sorry, I should have posted this page. no moving parts. http://www.idatech.com/ Tom DeReggi wrote: Patrick, All excellent points, and reality checks. Thanks for the feedback! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on a commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum using even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting surface for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could be an issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections. Then the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed EC. I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All generators break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled models don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever, you won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power goes out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models) have contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to your site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell. Actually, we got a good 15 years out of the existing CD batteries, because we inherited them from Teligent days :-) But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt and decent run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters. (The Triplites worked really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight years. We matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice versa.) So our thought was Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time and load, and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges, power conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when batteries short out. Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now have duplicate need of devices to power. Some are AC devices like PC routers. Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear running on 48V. Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC and DC backup power subsystems. And how do we plan for load growth? How many new radios installed will be AC or DC? Unlicensed versus Licensed? We really dont know in advance. There is a lot of power waste going from AC to DC to AC to DC. The thought was... If long run time was accomplished by the propaine generator, both DC and AC battery subsystems could
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
I don't remember, you'd have to call them. --C 3-dB Networks wrote: What do those cost? Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Curtis Maurand Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Something like that. These guys have one that runs for 90 hours is 250 watts 12 or 24 VDC and uses a methanol and water mix. methane fuel cells don't use platinum and are, therefore, less expensive. Its configurable with an RS-232 port. It can be used as a battery charger as well so that if your system has dropped to battery, it will recharge the battery after its charge has dropped to a configurable level. Its pretty cool stuff. I was looking to backup power an entire data center with one of the larger ones a couple of years ago. There is a european company called BAXI that makes fuel cells as well. This one is perfect for the application requirements in the original email. I don't recall them as being that expensive either. http://www.idatech.com/Products-and-Services-iGen-System2.asp --Curtis Tom DeReggi wrote: Thanks PS. Isn't Hydrogen Fual Cell the technology Spring just got like $X billion grant to pioneer? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Curtis Maurand cmaur...@xyonet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Sorry, I should have posted this page. no moving parts. http://www.idatech.com/ Tom DeReggi wrote: Patrick, All excellent points, and reality checks. Thanks for the feedback! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on a commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum using even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting surface for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could be an issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections. Then the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed EC. I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All generators break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled models don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever, you won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power goes out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models) have contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to your site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell. Actually, we got a good 15 years out of the existing CD batteries, because we inherited them from Teligent days :-) But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt and decent run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters. (The Triplites worked really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight years. We matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice versa.) So our thought was Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time and load, and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges, power conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when batteries short out. Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now have duplicate need of devices to power. Some are AC devices like PC routers. Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Here you go. I have been using these Universal Batteries for a few years now and have not had any problems so far. http://www.factoriesonline.com/ProductInfo.aspx?id=1899684categoryid=0 I have also purchased from that vendor before and not had a problem. Call them for a freight quote. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com jp wrote: On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 05:58:11PM -0400, Patrick Shoemaker wrote: I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Mind sharing where to get AGM batts like that for that price? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Old batteries are worth money. The local napa will take them for free. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator And don't forget the disposal costs of batteries when they are no longer functional. Telephone companies have an extensive HAZMAT documentation and chain of custody requirement for their switch batteries. Don't think this industry will get away with not having some requirement like that for long :-) Thank You, Brian Webster !--[endif]-- Tom DeReggi wrote: Patrick, In general, sounds like good advice. To clarify our intent, in posting. From yr 2000-2008, our model was to 1) Have minimum 12 hour run-time of battery for core cell sites. 2) Have contingency plan for hooking up a mobile gasoline powered generator, in longer lasting Emergencies. (We have a couple hot spare generators) Why are we changing our view point? 1) Many of the batteries have now died, and need replaced. Batteries are still very expensive. Propaine Generators have come way down in price (aka Generac) In most case, the generator will be less expensive than the batteries, based on watt load at the sites. 2) Our network has grown, but our staff size has shrunk. We realize the challenge that more than one site can loose power at once, and harder to get to multiple locations at once with generators. Its hard to know when batteries will hold or not, when towards the end of their life, so its always a rush with the genrators. 9/10 cases by the time we get generators onsite, the power gets restored within minutes. 3) Its easy to throw a generator on a Grant Application :-) We believe permanent onsite generators would likely increase uptime, and not necessarilly be more expensive, for some of our sites. (We'd of course still keep some patteries inline) The question is whether it will be more hassle than we realize to re-fill them and inspect them. Some people told me quarterly inspections are needed, or sometimes they do not start when needed. We are already connected to building generators, where we were allowed to, so we are looking at sites where our only option was to put in our own. I'm still uncertain what objections or preferences property management would have for this type stuff. For example, whether they would be concerned about it blowing up if a gas leak occured. I actually have one building in mind wher egetting a new electrical connector from the roof to the ground would be really a big pain. Would require Xray and drilling every floor of 20. There I'd like to put a roof mounted propaine generator. I was thinking maybe the best option is to just have a small external tank, and swap the tank after use? I would think where there is pre-existing riser space, I'd want to mount on ground level, and run thick gauge AC wire up. Mostly I was wondering if management companies look for specific features for the device, or if Generac would offer all standard features to meet the requirements of code and property managers. For our smaller watt sites, we'd of course stick with batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Yes, it's possible to get a generator installed on a roof, but it will be an expensive project in our area due to the code compliance issues. However, most commercial buildings will have a preexisting emergency power system for critical loads installed already. There are strict requirements such as sub 10 second startup times, routine testing, and fuel availability requirements. If you talk to the building engineer, you might be able to convince them to allow you a small amount of power from an emergency circuit. The buildings I am in do this for most of their tenants for phone systems, etc. Failing that, have an electrician run conduit to the parking lot and place a power inlet down there. Be sure to have 24 hours of battery capacity, and use a trailer-mounted generator in the parking lot for the rare outage that lasts longer than the batteries. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: While on the topic of generators. Anyone have advice on how to accommodate generators in Commercial Multi-tenant buildings. Several things come to mind... Gas generators are definately not allowed on roofs, for fire safety reasons. Adequate ventilation is likely needed for either gas or Propain generators. What type propain generators would likely gain permission to get installed in a rooftop penthouse? or Roof? If a propain generator
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Better yet exchange them to discount your new battery... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: Old batteries are worth money. The local napa will take them for free. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator And don't forget the disposal costs of batteries when they are no longer functional. Telephone companies have an extensive HAZMAT documentation and chain of custody requirement for their switch batteries. Don't think this industry will get away with not having some requirement like that for long :-) Thank You, Brian Webster !--[endif]-- Tom DeReggi wrote: Patrick, In general, sounds like good advice. To clarify our intent, in posting. From yr 2000-2008, our model was to 1) Have minimum 12 hour run-time of battery for core cell sites. 2) Have contingency plan for hooking up a mobile gasoline powered generator, in longer lasting Emergencies. (We have a couple hot spare generators) Why are we changing our view point? 1) Many of the batteries have now died, and need replaced. Batteries are still very expensive. Propaine Generators have come way down in price (aka Generac) In most case, the generator will be less expensive than the batteries, based on watt load at the sites. 2) Our network has grown, but our staff size has shrunk. We realize the challenge that more than one site can loose power at once, and harder to get to multiple locations at once with generators. Its hard to know when batteries will hold or not, when towards the end of their life, so its always a rush with the genrators. 9/10 cases by the time we get generators onsite, the power gets restored within minutes. 3) Its easy to throw a generator on a Grant Application :-) We believe permanent onsite generators would likely increase uptime, and not necessarilly be more expensive, for some of our sites. (We'd of course still keep some patteries inline) The question is whether it will be more hassle than we realize to re-fill them and inspect them. Some people told me quarterly inspections are needed, or sometimes they do not start when needed. We are already connected to building generators, where we were allowed to, so we are looking at sites where our only option was to put in our own. I'm still uncertain what objections or preferences property management would have for this type stuff. For example, whether they would be concerned about it blowing up if a gas leak occured. I actually have one building in mind wher egetting a new electrical connector from the roof to the ground would be really a big pain. Would require Xray and drilling every floor of 20. There I'd like to put a roof mounted propaine generator. I was thinking maybe the best option is to just have a small external tank, and swap the tank after use? I would think where there is pre-existing riser space, I'd want to mount on ground level, and run thick gauge AC wire up. Mostly I was wondering if management companies look for specific features for the device, or if Generac would offer all standard features to meet the requirements of code and property managers. For our smaller watt sites, we'd of course stick with batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Yes, it's possible to get a generator installed on a roof, but it will be an expensive project in our area due to the code compliance issues. However, most commercial buildings will have a preexisting emergency power system for critical loads installed already. There are strict requirements such as sub 10 second startup times, routine testing, and fuel availability requirements. If you talk to the building engineer, you might be able to convince them to allow you a small amount of power from an emergency circuit. The buildings I am in do this for most of their tenants for phone systems, etc. Failing that, have an electrician run conduit to the parking lot and place a power inlet down there. Be sure to have 24 hours of battery capacity, and use a trailer-mounted generator in the parking lot for the rare outage that lasts longer than the batteries. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: While on the topic of generators
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Fuel cells, too. http://www.fuelcellmarkets.com/products_and_services/3,1,599,17,7561.html Christopher Erickson wrote: The right type of batteries could give you 15 to 20 years of service. And adding a pair of solar panels and an MPPT solar charge controller could increase your backup battery run time from a couple of days to a couple of weeks. And no volatile fuel issues to deal with either. And their PMI interval is a godsend too. And cheaper than a genny. Add another panel or two and you might even be able to drop your grid connection. Remember to eliminate as many power conversions as possible from your telecom power design. -Christopher Erickson Network Design Engineer 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529 Anchorage, AK 99508 N61?11.710' W149?46.723' -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Patrick, In general, sounds like good advice. To clarify our intent, in posting. From yr 2000-2008, our model was to 1) Have minimum 12 hour run-time of battery for core cell sites. 2) Have contingency plan for hooking up a mobile gasoline powered generator, in longer lasting Emergencies. (We have a couple hot spare generators) Why are we changing our view point? 1) Many of the batteries have now died, and need replaced. Batteries are still very expensive. Propaine Generators have come way down in price (aka Generac) In most case, the generator will be less expensive than the batteries, based on watt load at the sites. 2) Our network has grown, but our staff size has shrunk. We realize the challenge that more than one site can loose power at once, and harder to get to multiple locations at once with generators. Its hard to know when batteries will hold or not, when towards the end of their life, so its always a rush with the genrators. 9/10 cases by the time we get generators onsite, the power gets restored within minutes. 3) Its easy to throw a generator on a Grant Application :-) We believe permanent onsite generators would likely increase uptime, and not necessarilly be more expensive, for some of our sites. (We'd of course still keep some patteries inline) The question is whether it will be more hassle than we realize to re-fill them and inspect them. Some people told me quarterly inspections are needed, or sometimes they do not start when needed. We are already connected to building generators, where we were allowed to, so we are looking at sites where our only option was to put in our own. I'm still uncertain what objections or preferences property management would have for this type stuff. For example, whether they would be concerned about it blowing up if a gas leak occured. I actually have one building in mind wher egetting a new electrical connector from the roof to the ground would be really a big pain. Would require Xray and drilling every floor of 20. There I'd like to put a roof mounted propaine generator. I was thinking maybe the best option is to just have a small external tank, and swap the tank after use? I would think where there is pre-existing riser space, I'd want to mount on ground level, and run thick gauge AC wire up. Mostly I was wondering if management companies look for specific features for the device, or if Generac would offer all standard features to meet the requirements of code and property managers. For our smaller watt sites, we'd of course stick with batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Yes, it's possible to get a generator installed on a roof, but it will be an expensive project in our area due to the code compliance issues. However, most commercial buildings will have a preexisting emergency power system for critical loads installed already. There are strict requirements such as sub 10 second startup times, routine testing, and fuel availability requirements. If you talk to the building engineer, you might be able to convince them to allow you a small amount of power from an emergency circuit. The buildings I am in do this for most of their tenants for phone systems, etc. Failing that, have an electrician run conduit to the parking lot and place a power inlet down there. Be sure to have 24 hours of battery capacity, and use a trailer-mounted generator in the parking lot for the rare outage that lasts longer than the batteries. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Let's not forget small nuclear power as sold in 1951! ... http://xrl.in/2u36 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Curtis Maurand Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 10:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Fuel cells, too. http://www.fuelcellmarkets.com/products_and_services/3,1,599,17,7561.html Christopher Erickson wrote: The right type of batteries could give you 15 to 20 years of service. And adding a pair of solar panels and an MPPT solar charge controller could increase your backup battery run time from a couple of days to a couple of weeks. And no volatile fuel issues to deal with either. And their PMI interval is a godsend too. And cheaper than a genny. Add another panel or two and you might even be able to drop your grid connection. Remember to eliminate as many power conversions as possible from your telecom power design. -Christopher Erickson Network Design Engineer 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529 Anchorage, AK 99508 N61?11.710' W149?46.723' -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Patrick, In general, sounds like good advice. To clarify our intent, in posting. From yr 2000-2008, our model was to 1) Have minimum 12 hour run-time of battery for core cell sites. 2) Have contingency plan for hooking up a mobile gasoline powered generator, in longer lasting Emergencies. (We have a couple hot spare generators) Why are we changing our view point? 1) Many of the batteries have now died, and need replaced. Batteries are still very expensive. Propaine Generators have come way down in price (aka Generac) In most case, the generator will be less expensive than the batteries, based on watt load at the sites. 2) Our network has grown, but our staff size has shrunk. We realize the challenge that more than one site can loose power at once, and harder to get to multiple locations at once with generators. Its hard to know when batteries will hold or not, when towards the end of their life, so its always a rush with the genrators. 9/10 cases by the time we get generators onsite, the power gets restored within minutes. 3) Its easy to throw a generator on a Grant Application :-) We believe permanent onsite generators would likely increase uptime, and not necessarilly be more expensive, for some of our sites. (We'd of course still keep some patteries inline) The question is whether it will be more hassle than we realize to re-fill them and inspect them. Some people told me quarterly inspections are needed, or sometimes they do not start when needed. We are already connected to building generators, where we were allowed to, so we are looking at sites where our only option was to put in our own. I'm still uncertain what objections or preferences property management would have for this type stuff. For example, whether they would be concerned about it blowing up if a gas leak occured. I actually have one building in mind wher egetting a new electrical connector from the roof to the ground would be really a big pain. Would require Xray and drilling every floor of 20. There I'd like to put a roof mounted propaine generator. I was thinking maybe the best option is to just have a small external tank, and swap the tank after use? I would think where there is pre-existing riser space, I'd want to mount on ground level, and run thick gauge AC wire up. Mostly I was wondering if management companies look for specific features for the device, or if Generac would offer all standard features to meet the requirements of code and property managers. For our smaller watt sites, we'd of course stick with batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Yes, it's possible to get a generator installed on a roof, but it will be an expensive project in our area due to the code compliance issues. However, most commercial buildings will have a preexisting emergency power system for critical loads installed already. There are strict requirements such as sub 10 second startup times, routine testing, and fuel availability requirements. If you talk to the building engineer, you might be able to convince them to allow you a small amount of power from an emergency circuit. The buildings I am in do this for most of their tenants for phone systems, etc. Failing that, have an electrician run conduit to the parking lot and place a power inlet down
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Sorry, I should have posted this page. no moving parts. http://www.idatech.com/ Tom DeReggi wrote: Patrick, All excellent points, and reality checks. Thanks for the feedback! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on a commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum using even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting surface for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could be an issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections. Then the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed EC. I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All generators break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled models don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever, you won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power goes out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models) have contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to your site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell. Actually, we got a good 15 years out of the existing CD batteries, because we inherited them from Teligent days :-) But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt and decent run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters. (The Triplites worked really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight years. We matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice versa.) So our thought was Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time and load, and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges, power conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when batteries short out. Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now have duplicate need of devices to power. Some are AC devices like PC routers. Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear running on 48V. Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC and DC backup power subsystems. And how do we plan for load growth? How many new radios installed will be AC or DC? Unlicensed versus Licensed? We really dont know in advance. There is a lot of power waste going from AC to DC to AC to DC. The thought was... If long run time was accomplished by the propaine generator, both DC and AC battery subsystems could be installed with lower cost lower run-time batteries. We'd still need to account for max watts growth for each subsystem, but we could way reduce AH requirements for both subsystems. Or am I making this to complicated, and better just sticking with batteries :-) Chris Erikson's idea on solar panels sounded interesting. Although, I bet my ruthless roof rights people will try to charge me a monthly colo fee for them :-( I wonder if I can make the solar panels look like rain/weather shields :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: jp j...@saucer.midcoast.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator The tripplite APS is what we use for this. Small generators are a pain. On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:57:23PM -0430, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: You might want something like an inverter (Xantrex for example) which includes a DC to AC inverter, battery charger, and automatic transfer switch. Add the batteries and you're done. Greg On Aug 2, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning toward a UPS. A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost less and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the batteries @ 24VDC. Thanks again Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gary Garrett Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator The soviets made portable radioactive generators to power lighthouses and beacons; 87 years and you've only used half your fuel. On Tue, Aug 04, 2009 at 11:19:31AM -0700, Chuck Profito wrote: Let's not forget small nuclear power as sold in 1951! ... http://xrl.in/2u36 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Curtis Maurand Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 10:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Fuel cells, too. http://www.fuelcellmarkets.com/products_and_services/3,1,599,17,7561.html Christopher Erickson wrote: The right type of batteries could give you 15 to 20 years of service. And adding a pair of solar panels and an MPPT solar charge controller could increase your backup battery run time from a couple of days to a couple of weeks. And no volatile fuel issues to deal with either. And their PMI interval is a godsend too. And cheaper than a genny. Add another panel or two and you might even be able to drop your grid connection. Remember to eliminate as many power conversions as possible from your telecom power design. -Christopher Erickson Network Design Engineer 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529 Anchorage, AK 99508 N61?11.710' W149?46.723' -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Patrick, In general, sounds like good advice. To clarify our intent, in posting. From yr 2000-2008, our model was to 1) Have minimum 12 hour run-time of battery for core cell sites. 2) Have contingency plan for hooking up a mobile gasoline powered generator, in longer lasting Emergencies. (We have a couple hot spare generators) Why are we changing our view point? 1) Many of the batteries have now died, and need replaced. Batteries are still very expensive. Propaine Generators have come way down in price (aka Generac) In most case, the generator will be less expensive than the batteries, based on watt load at the sites. 2) Our network has grown, but our staff size has shrunk. We realize the challenge that more than one site can loose power at once, and harder to get to multiple locations at once with generators. Its hard to know when batteries will hold or not, when towards the end of their life, so its always a rush with the genrators. 9/10 cases by the time we get generators onsite, the power gets restored within minutes. 3) Its easy to throw a generator on a Grant Application :-) We believe permanent onsite generators would likely increase uptime, and not necessarilly be more expensive, for some of our sites. (We'd of course still keep some patteries inline) The question is whether it will be more hassle than we realize to re-fill them and inspect them. Some people told me quarterly inspections are needed, or sometimes they do not start when needed. We are already connected to building generators, where we were allowed to, so we are looking at sites where our only option was to put in our own. I'm still uncertain what objections or preferences property management would have for this type stuff. For example, whether they would be concerned about it blowing up if a gas leak occured. I actually have one building in mind wher egetting a new electrical connector from the roof to the ground would be really a big pain. Would require Xray and drilling every floor of 20. There I'd like to put a roof mounted propaine generator. I was thinking maybe the best option is to just have a small external tank, and swap the tank after use? I would think where there is pre-existing riser space, I'd want to mount on ground level, and run thick gauge AC wire up. Mostly I was wondering if management companies look for specific features for the device, or if Generac would offer all standard features to meet the requirements of code and property managers. For our smaller watt sites, we'd of course stick with batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Yes, it's possible to get a generator installed on a roof, but it will be an expensive project in our area due to the code compliance issues. However, most commercial buildings will have a preexisting emergency power system for critical loads installed already. There are strict requirements such as sub 10
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Thanks PS. Isn't Hydrogen Fual Cell the technology Spring just got like $X billion grant to pioneer? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Curtis Maurand cmaur...@xyonet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Sorry, I should have posted this page. no moving parts. http://www.idatech.com/ Tom DeReggi wrote: Patrick, All excellent points, and reality checks. Thanks for the feedback! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on a commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum using even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting surface for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could be an issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections. Then the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed EC. I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All generators break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled models don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever, you won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power goes out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models) have contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to your site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell. Actually, we got a good 15 years out of the existing CD batteries, because we inherited them from Teligent days :-) But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt and decent run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters. (The Triplites worked really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight years. We matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice versa.) So our thought was Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time and load, and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges, power conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when batteries short out. Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now have duplicate need of devices to power. Some are AC devices like PC routers. Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear running on 48V. Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC and DC backup power subsystems. And how do we plan for load growth? How many new radios installed will be AC or DC? Unlicensed versus Licensed? We really dont know in advance. There is a lot of power waste going from AC to DC to AC to DC. The thought was... If long run time was accomplished by the propaine generator, both DC and AC battery subsystems could be installed with lower cost lower run-time batteries. We'd still need to account for max watts growth for each subsystem, but we could way reduce AH requirements for both subsystems. Or am I making this to complicated, and better just sticking with batteries :-) Chris Erikson's idea on solar panels sounded interesting. Although, I bet my ruthless roof rights people will try to charge me a monthly colo fee for them :-( I wonder if I can make the solar panels look like rain/weather shields :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: jp j...@saucer.midcoast.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator The tripplite APS is what we use for this. Small generators are a pain. On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:57:23PM -0430, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: You might want something like an inverter (Xantrex for example) which includes a DC to AC inverter, battery charger, and automatic transfer switch. Add the batteries and you're done. Greg On Aug 2, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Yes, it's possible to get a generator installed on a roof, but it will be an expensive project in our area due to the code compliance issues. However, most commercial buildings will have a preexisting emergency power system for critical loads installed already. There are strict requirements such as sub 10 second startup times, routine testing, and fuel availability requirements. If you talk to the building engineer, you might be able to convince them to allow you a small amount of power from an emergency circuit. The buildings I am in do this for most of their tenants for phone systems, etc. Failing that, have an electrician run conduit to the parking lot and place a power inlet down there. Be sure to have 24 hours of battery capacity, and use a trailer-mounted generator in the parking lot for the rare outage that lasts longer than the batteries. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: While on the topic of generators. Anyone have advice on how to accommodate generators in Commercial Multi-tenant buildings. Several things come to mind... Gas generators are definately not allowed on roofs, for fire safety reasons. Adequate ventilation is likely needed for either gas or Propain generators. What type propain generators would likely gain permission to get installed in a rooftop penthouse? or Roof? If a propain generator was used on a top floor, how would Propain get re-fueled easilly? Is is standard proceedure to have removable tanks, and just have new tanks swapped (like a gas grill).? Or is is customary to have tanks on the ground level? Or is it always standard to put the generator at ground level, and run AC wire up to the roof level? Do propain gas trucks have long enough hoses to reach rooms inside parking garages? Not likely will fit driving into parking garage? Do property owners worry about propain blowing up, and have limits to where the tanks can be placed? I'm sure some of this is in local building code. And I can probably best guess some of the answers for above. But what re other people doing, to both install and maintain at the lowest dollar cost.? I saw those Generac propain models before, and they are very affordable. Just wondering if feasible to install them on roofs/penthouses. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning toward a UPS. A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost less and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the batteries @ 24VDC. Thanks again Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gary Garrett Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Small generators do not auto start very reliably. When cold or dampness causes hard starting the starter can overheat and burn out. Generally you need an electric choke to start gas engines, propane can flood and need to rest before trying again, diesel can be REAL hard to start when cold. Auto starters can not adapt to changing conditions. Our best generator is a Propane Ford inline 6 cyl. 25 KW 3 phase. (1955 Model) The monitor cranks for 1 min then rests and tries 3 times. Everything is adjustable. It knows to stop cranking when it sees AC voltage from the Gen. so the motor over runs the starter for just a few seconds. Only a huge starter motor can take this abuse and last unattended. You may be money ahead to find out why the existing generator is not starting and get it fixed. Jerry Richardson wrote: We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
They'll charge a car. Those have some load on them when just sitting I'd say that those questions would be best asked of the manufacturer you plan to use. marlon - Original Message - From: Scott Carullo sc...@brevardwireless.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Can you use a battery charger to essentially run your load from? Also will that load cause a smart charger to act not so smart because of the load on it? Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x102 On Aug 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: How long do you need to power it for? I'd suggest that this may be a great case for a couple of big batteries and an inverter. Just run the system off of the inverter all of the time, install a smart battery charger to keep the batteries properly charged. Cheaper than a generator, NO switch time. Ever. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com To: Motorola Canopy User Group motor...@wispa.org; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:34 AM Subject: [WISPA] Small auto start generator We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
The tripplite APS is what we use for this. Small generators are a pain. On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:57:23PM -0430, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: You might want something like an inverter (Xantrex for example) which includes a DC to AC inverter, battery charger, and automatic transfer switch. Add the batteries and you're done. Greg On Aug 2, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning toward a UPS. A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost less and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the batteries @ 24VDC. Thanks again Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gary Garrett Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Small generators do not auto start very reliably. When cold or dampness causes hard starting the starter can overheat and burn out. Generally you need an electric choke to start gas engines, propane can flood and need to rest before trying again, diesel can be REAL hard to start when cold. Auto starters can not adapt to changing conditions. Our best generator is a Propane Ford inline 6 cyl. 25 KW 3 phase. (1955 Model) The monitor cranks for 1 min then rests and tries 3 times. Everything is adjustable. It knows to stop cranking when it sees AC voltage from the Gen. so the motor over runs the starter for just a few seconds. Only a huge starter motor can take this abuse and last unattended. You may be money ahead to find out why the existing generator is not starting and get it fixed. Jerry Richardson wrote: We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Patrick, In general, sounds like good advice. To clarify our intent, in posting. From yr 2000-2008, our model was to 1) Have minimum 12 hour run-time of battery for core cell sites. 2) Have contingency plan for hooking up a mobile gasoline powered generator, in longer lasting Emergencies. (We have a couple hot spare generators) Why are we changing our view point? 1) Many of the batteries have now died, and need replaced. Batteries are still very expensive. Propaine Generators have come way down in price (aka Generac) In most case, the generator will be less expensive than the batteries, based on watt load at the sites. 2) Our network has grown, but our staff size has shrunk. We realize the challenge that more than one site can loose power at once, and harder to get to multiple locations at once with generators. Its hard to know when batteries will hold or not, when towards the end of their life, so its always a rush with the genrators. 9/10 cases by the time we get generators onsite, the power gets restored within minutes. 3) Its easy to throw a generator on a Grant Application :-) We believe permanent onsite generators would likely increase uptime, and not necessarilly be more expensive, for some of our sites. (We'd of course still keep some patteries inline) The question is whether it will be more hassle than we realize to re-fill them and inspect them. Some people told me quarterly inspections are needed, or sometimes they do not start when needed. We are already connected to building generators, where we were allowed to, so we are looking at sites where our only option was to put in our own. I'm still uncertain what objections or preferences property management would have for this type stuff. For example, whether they would be concerned about it blowing up if a gas leak occured. I actually have one building in mind wher egetting a new electrical connector from the roof to the ground would be really a big pain. Would require Xray and drilling every floor of 20. There I'd like to put a roof mounted propaine generator. I was thinking maybe the best option is to just have a small external tank, and swap the tank after use? I would think where there is pre-existing riser space, I'd want to mount on ground level, and run thick gauge AC wire up. Mostly I was wondering if management companies look for specific features for the device, or if Generac would offer all standard features to meet the requirements of code and property managers. For our smaller watt sites, we'd of course stick with batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Yes, it's possible to get a generator installed on a roof, but it will be an expensive project in our area due to the code compliance issues. However, most commercial buildings will have a preexisting emergency power system for critical loads installed already. There are strict requirements such as sub 10 second startup times, routine testing, and fuel availability requirements. If you talk to the building engineer, you might be able to convince them to allow you a small amount of power from an emergency circuit. The buildings I am in do this for most of their tenants for phone systems, etc. Failing that, have an electrician run conduit to the parking lot and place a power inlet down there. Be sure to have 24 hours of battery capacity, and use a trailer-mounted generator in the parking lot for the rare outage that lasts longer than the batteries. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: While on the topic of generators. Anyone have advice on how to accommodate generators in Commercial Multi-tenant buildings. Several things come to mind... Gas generators are definately not allowed on roofs, for fire safety reasons. Adequate ventilation is likely needed for either gas or Propain generators. What type propain generators would likely gain permission to get installed in a rooftop penthouse? or Roof? If a propain generator was used on a top floor, how would Propain get re-fueled easilly? Is is standard proceedure to have removable tanks, and just have new tanks swapped (like a gas grill).? Or is is customary to have tanks on the ground level? Or is it always standard to put the generator at ground level, and run AC wire up to the roof level? Do propain gas trucks have long enough hoses to reach rooms inside parking garages? Not likely will fit driving into parking garage? Do property owners worry about propain blowing up, and have limits to where the tanks can be placed? I'm sure some
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
The right type of batteries could give you 15 to 20 years of service. And adding a pair of solar panels and an MPPT solar charge controller could increase your backup battery run time from a couple of days to a couple of weeks. And no volatile fuel issues to deal with either. And their PMI interval is a godsend too. And cheaper than a genny. Add another panel or two and you might even be able to drop your grid connection. Remember to eliminate as many power conversions as possible from your telecom power design. -Christopher Erickson Network Design Engineer 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529 Anchorage, AK 99508 N61?11.710' W149?46.723' -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Patrick, In general, sounds like good advice. To clarify our intent, in posting. From yr 2000-2008, our model was to 1) Have minimum 12 hour run-time of battery for core cell sites. 2) Have contingency plan for hooking up a mobile gasoline powered generator, in longer lasting Emergencies. (We have a couple hot spare generators) Why are we changing our view point? 1) Many of the batteries have now died, and need replaced. Batteries are still very expensive. Propaine Generators have come way down in price (aka Generac) In most case, the generator will be less expensive than the batteries, based on watt load at the sites. 2) Our network has grown, but our staff size has shrunk. We realize the challenge that more than one site can loose power at once, and harder to get to multiple locations at once with generators. Its hard to know when batteries will hold or not, when towards the end of their life, so its always a rush with the genrators. 9/10 cases by the time we get generators onsite, the power gets restored within minutes. 3) Its easy to throw a generator on a Grant Application :-) We believe permanent onsite generators would likely increase uptime, and not necessarilly be more expensive, for some of our sites. (We'd of course still keep some patteries inline) The question is whether it will be more hassle than we realize to re-fill them and inspect them. Some people told me quarterly inspections are needed, or sometimes they do not start when needed. We are already connected to building generators, where we were allowed to, so we are looking at sites where our only option was to put in our own. I'm still uncertain what objections or preferences property management would have for this type stuff. For example, whether they would be concerned about it blowing up if a gas leak occured. I actually have one building in mind wher egetting a new electrical connector from the roof to the ground would be really a big pain. Would require Xray and drilling every floor of 20. There I'd like to put a roof mounted propaine generator. I was thinking maybe the best option is to just have a small external tank, and swap the tank after use? I would think where there is pre-existing riser space, I'd want to mount on ground level, and run thick gauge AC wire up. Mostly I was wondering if management companies look for specific features for the device, or if Generac would offer all standard features to meet the requirements of code and property managers. For our smaller watt sites, we'd of course stick with batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Yes, it's possible to get a generator installed on a roof, but it will be an expensive project in our area due to the code compliance issues. However, most commercial buildings will have a preexisting emergency power system for critical loads installed already. There are strict requirements such as sub 10 second startup times, routine testing, and fuel availability requirements. If you talk to the building engineer, you might be able to convince them to allow you a small amount of power from an emergency circuit. The buildings I am in do this for most of their tenants for phone systems, etc. Failing that, have an electrician run conduit to the parking lot and place a power inlet down there. Be sure to have 24 hours of battery capacity, and use a trailer-mounted generator in the parking lot for the rare outage that lasts longer than the batteries. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: While on the topic of generators. Anyone have advice on how to accommodate generators in Commercial
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell. Actually, we got a good 15 years out of the existing CD batteries, because we inherited them from Teligent days :-) But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt and decent run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters. (The Triplites worked really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight years. We matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice versa.) So our thought was Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time and load, and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges, power conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when batteries short out. Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now have duplicate need of devices to power. Some are AC devices like PC routers. Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear running on 48V. Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC and DC backup power subsystems. And how do we plan for load growth? How many new radios installed will be AC or DC? Unlicensed versus Licensed? We really dont know in advance. There is a lot of power waste going from AC to DC to AC to DC. The thought was... If long run time was accomplished by the propaine generator, both DC and AC battery subsystems could be installed with lower cost lower run-time batteries. We'd still need to account for max watts growth for each subsystem, but we could way reduce AH requirements for both subsystems. Or am I making this to complicated, and better just sticking with batteries :-) Chris Erikson's idea on solar panels sounded interesting. Although, I bet my ruthless roof rights people will try to charge me a monthly colo fee for them :-( I wonder if I can make the solar panels look like rain/weather shields :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: jp j...@saucer.midcoast.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator The tripplite APS is what we use for this. Small generators are a pain. On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:57:23PM -0430, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: You might want something like an inverter (Xantrex for example) which includes a DC to AC inverter, battery charger, and automatic transfer switch. Add the batteries and you're done. Greg On Aug 2, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning toward a UPS. A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost less and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the batteries @ 24VDC. Thanks again Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gary Garrett Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Small generators do not auto start very reliably. When cold or dampness causes hard starting the starter can overheat and burn out. Generally you need an electric choke to start gas engines, propane can flood and need to rest before trying again, diesel can be REAL hard to start when cold. Auto starters can not adapt to changing conditions. Our best generator is a Propane Ford inline 6 cyl. 25 KW 3 phase. (1955 Model) The monitor cranks for 1 min then rests and tries 3 times. Everything is adjustable. It knows to stop cranking when it sees AC voltage from the Gen. so the motor over runs the starter for just a few seconds. Only a huge starter motor can take this abuse and last unattended. You may be money ahead to find out why the existing generator is not starting and get it fixed. Jerry Richardson wrote: We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on a commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum using even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting surface for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could be an issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections. Then the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed EC. I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All generators break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled models don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever, you won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power goes out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models) have contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to your site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell. Actually, we got a good 15 years out of the existing CD batteries, because we inherited them from Teligent days :-) But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt and decent run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters. (The Triplites worked really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight years. We matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice versa.) So our thought was Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time and load, and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges, power conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when batteries short out. Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now have duplicate need of devices to power. Some are AC devices like PC routers. Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear running on 48V. Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC and DC backup power subsystems. And how do we plan for load growth? How many new radios installed will be AC or DC? Unlicensed versus Licensed? We really dont know in advance. There is a lot of power waste going from AC to DC to AC to DC. The thought was... If long run time was accomplished by the propaine generator, both DC and AC battery subsystems could be installed with lower cost lower run-time batteries. We'd still need to account for max watts growth for each subsystem, but we could way reduce AH requirements for both subsystems. Or am I making this to complicated, and better just sticking with batteries :-) Chris Erikson's idea on solar panels sounded interesting. Although, I bet my ruthless roof rights people will try to charge me a monthly colo fee for them :-( I wonder if I can make the solar panels look like rain/weather shields :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: jp j...@saucer.midcoast.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator The tripplite APS is what we use for this. Small generators are a pain. On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:57:23PM -0430, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: You might want something like an inverter (Xantrex for example) which includes a DC to AC inverter, battery charger, and automatic transfer switch. Add the batteries and you're done. Greg On Aug 2, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning toward a UPS. A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost less and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the batteries @ 24VDC. Thanks again Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gary Garrett Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Small generators do not auto start very reliably. When cold or dampness causes hard starting the starter can overheat and burn out. Generally you need an electric choke to start gas engines, propane can flood and need to rest before trying again, diesel can be REAL hard to start when cold. Auto starters can not adapt to changing conditions. Our best generator is a Propane Ford inline 6 cyl. 25 KW 3 phase. (1955 Model) The monitor cranks for 1 min
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Put the word GREEN in that grant app and you might just have a shot! Not too bad of an idea with those solar panels. Brian Christopher Erickson wrote: The right type of batteries could give you 15 to 20 years of service. And adding a pair of solar panels and an MPPT solar charge controller could increase your backup battery run time from a couple of days to a couple of weeks. And no volatile fuel issues to deal with either. And their PMI interval is a godsend too. And cheaper than a genny. Add another panel or two and you might even be able to drop your grid connection. Remember to eliminate as many power conversions as possible from your telecom power design. -Christopher Erickson Network Design Engineer 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529 Anchorage, AK 99508 N61?11.710' W149?46.723' -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Patrick, In general, sounds like good advice. To clarify our intent, in posting. From yr 2000-2008, our model was to 1) Have minimum 12 hour run-time of battery for core cell sites. 2) Have contingency plan for hooking up a mobile gasoline powered generator, in longer lasting Emergencies. (We have a couple hot spare generators) Why are we changing our view point? 1) Many of the batteries have now died, and need replaced. Batteries are still very expensive. Propaine Generators have come way down in price (aka Generac) In most case, the generator will be less expensive than the batteries, based on watt load at the sites. 2) Our network has grown, but our staff size has shrunk. We realize the challenge that more than one site can loose power at once, and harder to get to multiple locations at once with generators. Its hard to know when batteries will hold or not, when towards the end of their life, so its always a rush with the genrators. 9/10 cases by the time we get generators onsite, the power gets restored within minutes. 3) Its easy to throw a generator on a Grant Application :-) We believe permanent onsite generators would likely increase uptime, and not necessarilly be more expensive, for some of our sites. (We'd of course still keep some patteries inline) The question is whether it will be more hassle than we realize to re-fill them and inspect them. Some people told me quarterly inspections are needed, or sometimes they do not start when needed. We are already connected to building generators, where we were allowed to, so we are looking at sites where our only option was to put in our own. I'm still uncertain what objections or preferences property management would have for this type stuff. For example, whether they would be concerned about it blowing up if a gas leak occured. I actually have one building in mind wher egetting a new electrical connector from the roof to the ground would be really a big pain. Would require Xray and drilling every floor of 20. There I'd like to put a roof mounted propaine generator. I was thinking maybe the best option is to just have a small external tank, and swap the tank after use? I would think where there is pre-existing riser space, I'd want to mount on ground level, and run thick gauge AC wire up. Mostly I was wondering if management companies look for specific features for the device, or if Generac would offer all standard features to meet the requirements of code and property managers. For our smaller watt sites, we'd of course stick with batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Patrick Shoemaker" shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Yes, it's possible to get a generator installed on a roof, but it will be an expensive project in our area due to the code compliance issues. However, most commercial buildings will have a preexisting emergency power system for critical loads installed already. There are strict requirements such as sub 10 second startup times, routine testing, and fuel availability requirements. If you talk to the building engineer, you might be able to convince them to allow you a small amount of power from an emergency circuit. The buildings I am in do this for most of their tenants for phone systems, etc. Failing that, have an electrician run conduit to the parking lot and place a power inlet down there. Be sure to have 24 hours of battery capacity, and use a trailer-mounted generator in the parking lot for the rare outage that lasts longer than the batteries. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote:
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Patrick, All excellent points, and reality checks. Thanks for the feedback! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on a commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum using even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting surface for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could be an issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections. Then the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed EC. I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All generators break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled models don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever, you won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power goes out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models) have contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to your site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell. Actually, we got a good 15 years out of the existing CD batteries, because we inherited them from Teligent days :-) But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt and decent run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters. (The Triplites worked really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight years. We matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice versa.) So our thought was Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time and load, and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges, power conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when batteries short out. Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now have duplicate need of devices to power. Some are AC devices like PC routers. Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear running on 48V. Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC and DC backup power subsystems. And how do we plan for load growth? How many new radios installed will be AC or DC? Unlicensed versus Licensed? We really dont know in advance. There is a lot of power waste going from AC to DC to AC to DC. The thought was... If long run time was accomplished by the propaine generator, both DC and AC battery subsystems could be installed with lower cost lower run-time batteries. We'd still need to account for max watts growth for each subsystem, but we could way reduce AH requirements for both subsystems. Or am I making this to complicated, and better just sticking with batteries :-) Chris Erikson's idea on solar panels sounded interesting. Although, I bet my ruthless roof rights people will try to charge me a monthly colo fee for them :-( I wonder if I can make the solar panels look like rain/weather shields :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: jp j...@saucer.midcoast.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator The tripplite APS is what we use for this. Small generators are a pain. On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:57:23PM -0430, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: You might want something like an inverter (Xantrex for example) which includes a DC to AC inverter, battery charger, and automatic transfer switch. Add the batteries and you're done. Greg On Aug 2, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning toward a UPS. A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost less and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the batteries @ 24VDC. Thanks again Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gary Garrett Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Small generators do not auto start very reliably. When cold or dampness causes hard
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
And don't forget the disposal costs of batteries when they are no longer functional. Telephone companies have an extensive HAZMAT documentation and chain of custody requirement for their switch batteries. Don't think this industry will get away with not having some requirement like that for long :-) Thank You, Thank You, Brian Webster Tom DeReggi wrote: Patrick, In general, sounds like good advice. To clarify our intent, in posting. From yr 2000-2008, our model was to 1) Have minimum 12 hour run-time of battery for core cell sites. 2) Have contingency plan for hooking up a mobile gasoline powered generator, in longer lasting Emergencies. (We have a couple hot spare generators) Why are we changing our view point? 1) Many of the batteries have now died, and need replaced. Batteries are still very expensive. Propaine Generators have come way down in price (aka Generac) In most case, the generator will be less expensive than the batteries, based on watt load at the sites. 2) Our network has grown, but our staff size has shrunk. We realize the challenge that more than one site can loose power at once, and harder to get to multiple locations at once with generators. Its hard to know when batteries will hold or not, when towards the end of their life, so its always a rush with the genrators. 9/10 cases by the time we get generators onsite, the power gets restored within minutes. 3) Its easy to throw a generator on a Grant Application :-) We believe permanent onsite generators would likely increase uptime, and not necessarilly be more expensive, for some of our sites. (We'd of course still keep some patteries inline) The question is whether it will be more hassle than we realize to re-fill them and inspect them. Some people told me quarterly inspections are needed, or sometimes they do not start when needed. We are already connected to building generators, where we were allowed to, so we are looking at sites where our only option was to put in our own. I'm still uncertain what objections or preferences property management would have for this type stuff. For example, whether they would be concerned about it blowing up if a gas leak occured. I actually have one building in mind wher egetting a new electrical connector from the roof to the ground would be really a big pain. Would require Xray and drilling every floor of 20. There I'd like to put a roof mounted propaine generator. I was thinking maybe the best option is to just have a small external tank, and swap the tank after use? I would think where there is pre-existing riser space, I'd want to mount on ground level, and run thick gauge AC wire up. Mostly I was wondering if management companies look for specific features for the device, or if Generac would offer all standard features to meet the requirements of code and property managers. For our smaller watt sites, we'd of course stick with batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Patrick Shoemaker" shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Yes, it's possible to get a generator installed on a roof, but it will be an expensive project in our area due to the code compliance issues. However, most commercial buildings will have a preexisting emergency power system for critical loads installed already. There are strict requirements such as sub 10 second startup times, routine testing, and fuel availability requirements. If you talk to the building engineer, you might be able to convince them to allow you a small amount of power from an emergency circuit. The buildings I am in do this for most of their tenants for phone systems, etc. Failing that, have an electrician run conduit to the parking lot and place a power inlet down there. Be sure to have 24 hours of battery capacity, and use a trailer-mounted generator in the parking lot for the rare outage that lasts longer than the batteries. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: While on the topic of generators. Anyone have advice on how to accommodate generators in Commercial Multi-tenant buildings. Several things come to mind... Gas generators are definately not allowed on roofs, for fire safety reasons. Adequate ventilation is likely needed for either gas or Propain generators. What type propain generators would likely gain permission to get installed in a rooftop penthouse? or Roof? If a propain generator was used on a top floor, how would Propain get re-fueled easilly? Is is standard proceedure to have removable tanks, and just have new tanks swapped (like a gas grill).? Or is is customary to have tanks
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Its really not onerous requirements. Basically you need to dispose of them with a true battery recylcer - often times the scrap dealer down the road. As long as they provide documenation that you took them to someone reputable in the chain, you are fine. A typical flooded CO battery weighs in at around 400 lbs, the last ones we removed got .15 cents a lb, with paper trail to Doe Run MO. The site had over 48 of them. You need a special sling to move them... If anyone has to I can give details. Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator And don't forget the disposal costs of batteries when they are no longer functional. Telephone companies have an extensive HAZMAT documentation and chain of custody requirement for their switch batteries. Don't think this industry will get away with not having some requirement like that for long :-) Thank You, Brian Webster !--[endif]-- Tom DeReggi wrote: Patrick, In general, sounds like good advice. To clarify our intent, in posting. From yr 2000-2008, our model was to 1) Have minimum 12 hour run-time of battery for core cell sites. 2) Have contingency plan for hooking up a mobile gasoline powered generator, in longer lasting Emergencies. (We have a couple hot spare generators) Why are we changing our view point? 1) Many of the batteries have now died, and need replaced. Batteries are still very expensive. Propaine Generators have come way down in price (aka Generac) In most case, the generator will be less expensive than the batteries, based on watt load at the sites. 2) Our network has grown, but our staff size has shrunk. We realize the challenge that more than one site can loose power at once, and harder to get to multiple locations at once with generators. Its hard to know when batteries will hold or not, when towards the end of their life, so its always a rush with the genrators. 9/10 cases by the time we get generators onsite, the power gets restored within minutes. 3) Its easy to throw a generator on a Grant Application :-) We believe permanent onsite generators would likely increase uptime, and not necessarilly be more expensive, for some of our sites. (We'd of course still keep some patteries inline) The question is whether it will be more hassle than we realize to re-fill them and inspect them. Some people told me quarterly inspections are needed, or sometimes they do not start when needed. We are already connected to building generators, where we were allowed to, so we are looking at sites where our only option was to put in our own. I'm still uncertain what objections or preferences property management would have for this type stuff. For example, whether they would be concerned about it blowing up if a gas leak occured. I actually have one building in mind wher egetting a new electrical connector from the roof to the ground would be really a big pain. Would require Xray and drilling every floor of 20. There I'd like to put a roof mounted propaine generator. I was thinking maybe the best option is to just have a small external tank, and swap the tank after use? I would think where there is pre-existing riser space, I'd want to mount on ground level, and run thick gauge AC wire up. Mostly I was wondering if management companies look for specific features for the device, or if Generac would offer all standard features to meet the requirements of code and property managers. For our smaller watt sites, we'd of course stick with batteries. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Yes, it's possible to get a generator installed on a roof, but it will be an expensive project in our area due to the code compliance issues. However, most commercial buildings will have a preexisting emergency power system for critical loads installed already. There are strict requirements such as sub 10 second startup times, routine testing, and fuel availability requirements. If you talk to the building engineer, you might be able to convince them to allow you a small amount of power from an emergency circuit. The buildings I am in do this for most of their tenants for phone systems, etc. Failing that, have an electrician run conduit to the parking lot and place a power inlet down there. Be sure to have 24 hours of battery capacity, and use a trailer-mounted generator in the parking lot for the rare outage that lasts longer than
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 05:58:11PM -0400, Patrick Shoemaker wrote: I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Mind sharing where to get AGM batts like that for that price? -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 05:58:11PM -0400, Patrick Shoemaker wrote: I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on a commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum using even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting surface for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could be an issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections. Then the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed EC. Also add a $1-3k for a good auto transfer switch. Maintenance such as oil changes and testing can also run a couple hundred a year in labor and materials, so that adds up over the life of the backup power solution. We've also seen propane delivery companies forget to keep the tanks full due to the unpredictable propane usage. And we've had weather so bad, propane trucks couldn't refill till spring if they wanted to. I am a big fan of whole building generators though. It's warm and fuzzy to keep a building going like normal when nobody else has power. I certainly understand the need for planning power consumption to scale with needs and growth. We consider power consumption in almost every equipment purchase or upgrade. Many upgrades decrease power consumption, like newer managed switches or newer PC hardware, making site runtime better. I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new site: $1500 including shipping. A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All generators break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled models don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever, you won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power goes out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models) have contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to your site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell. Actually, we got a good 15 years out of the existing CD batteries, because we inherited them from Teligent days :-) But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt and decent run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters. (The Triplites worked really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight years. We matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice versa.) So our thought was Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time and load, and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges, power conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when batteries short out. Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now have duplicate need of devices to power. Some are AC devices like PC routers. Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear running on 48V. Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC and DC backup power subsystems. And how do we plan for load growth? How many new radios installed will be AC or DC? Unlicensed versus Licensed? We really dont know in advance. There is a lot of power waste going from AC to DC to AC to DC. The thought was... If long run time was accomplished by the propaine generator, both DC and AC battery subsystems could be installed with lower cost lower run-time batteries. We'd still need to account for max watts growth for each subsystem, but we could way reduce AH requirements for both subsystems. Or am I making this to complicated, and better just sticking with batteries :-) Chris Erikson's idea on solar panels sounded interesting. Although, I bet my ruthless roof rights people will try to charge me a monthly colo fee for them :-( I wonder if I can make the solar panels look like rain/weather shields :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: jp j...@saucer.midcoast.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator The tripplite APS is what we use for this. Small generators are a pain. On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:57:23PM -0430, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: You might want something like an inverter (Xantrex for example) which includes a DC to AC inverter, battery charger, and automatic transfer switch. Add the batteries and you're done
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Way more then what you need. http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051langId=-1catalogId=10053productId=100628959categoryID=524799 The generac works great. Not sure if you have nural gas there but they can also be converted to propane. /Eje --Original Message-- From: Jerry Richardson Sender: wireless-boun...@wispa.org To: Motorola Canopy User Group To: WISPA General List ReplyTo: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Sent: Aug 2, 2009 13:34 We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning toward a UPS. A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost less and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the batteries @ 24VDC. Thanks again Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gary Garrett Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Small generators do not auto start very reliably. When cold or dampness causes hard starting the starter can overheat and burn out. Generally you need an electric choke to start gas engines, propane can flood and need to rest before trying again, diesel can be REAL hard to start when cold. Auto starters can not adapt to changing conditions. Our best generator is a Propane Ford inline 6 cyl. 25 KW 3 phase. (1955 Model) The monitor cranks for 1 min then rests and tries 3 times. Everything is adjustable. It knows to stop cranking when it sees AC voltage from the Gen. so the motor over runs the starter for just a few seconds. Only a huge starter motor can take this abuse and last unattended. You may be money ahead to find out why the existing generator is not starting and get it fixed. Jerry Richardson wrote: We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Hi Guys...I'd steer away from inverters since they soak up a lot of power. You might want to look at some solar stuff with some of the AGM batteries Marlon mentioned in another thread. Run everything @ 24V is good that way you don't need any dc-dc converters. Leon * os10ru...@gmail.com wrote, On 8/2/2009 3:27 PM: You might want something like an inverter (Xantrex for example) which includes a DC to AC inverter, battery charger, and automatic transfer switch. Add the batteries and you're done. Greg On Aug 2, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning toward a UPS. A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost less and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the batteries @ 24VDC. Thanks again Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gary Garrett Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Small generators do not auto start very reliably. When cold or dampness causes hard starting the starter can overheat and burn out. Generally you need an electric choke to start gas engines, propane can flood and need to rest before trying again, diesel can be REAL hard to start when cold. Auto starters can not adapt to changing conditions. Our best generator is a Propane Ford inline 6 cyl. 25 KW 3 phase. (1955 Model) The monitor cranks for 1 min then rests and tries 3 times. Everything is adjustable. It knows to stop cranking when it sees AC voltage from the Gen. so the motor over runs the starter for just a few seconds. Only a huge starter motor can take this abuse and last unattended. You may be money ahead to find out why the existing generator is not starting and get it fixed. Jerry Richardson wrote: We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.406 / Virus Database: 270.13.42/2278 - Release Date: 08/02/09 17:56:00 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Can you use a battery charger to essentially run your load from? Also will that load cause a smart charger to act not so smart because of the load on it? Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x102 On Aug 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: How long do you need to power it for? I'd suggest that this may be a great case for a couple of big batteries and an inverter. Just run the system off of the inverter all of the time, install a smart battery charger to keep the batteries properly charged. Cheaper than a generator, NO switch time. Ever. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com To: Motorola Canopy User Group motor...@wispa.org; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:34 AM Subject: [WISPA] Small auto start generator We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
Generators are not illegal on roof tops. The once-hospital here has an enormous diesel one straight above me! It is now a multi-tenant building for businesses and residents. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: While on the topic of generators. Anyone have advice on how to accommodate generators in Commercial Multi-tenant buildings. Several things come to mind... Gas generators are definately not allowed on roofs, for fire safety reasons. Adequate ventilation is likely needed for either gas or Propain generators. What type propain generators would likely gain permission to get installed in a rooftop penthouse? or Roof? If a propain generator was used on a top floor, how would Propain get re-fueled easilly? Is is standard proceedure to have removable tanks, and just have new tanks swapped (like a gas grill).? Or is is customary to have tanks on the ground level? Or is it always standard to put the generator at ground level, and run AC wire up to the roof level? Do propain gas trucks have long enough hoses to reach rooms inside parking garages? Not likely will fit driving into parking garage? Do property owners worry about propain blowing up, and have limits to where the tanks can be placed? I'm sure some of this is in local building code. And I can probably best guess some of the answers for above. But what re other people doing, to both install and maintain at the lowest dollar cost.? I saw those Generac propain models before, and they are very affordable. Just wondering if feasible to install them on roofs/penthouses. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Thank you, That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning toward a UPS. A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost less and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the batteries @ 24VDC. Thanks again Jerry -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gary Garrett Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator Small generators do not auto start very reliably. When cold or dampness causes hard starting the starter can overheat and burn out. Generally you need an electric choke to start gas engines, propane can flood and need to rest before trying again, diesel can be REAL hard to start when cold. Auto starters can not adapt to changing conditions. Our best generator is a Propane Ford inline 6 cyl. 25 KW 3 phase. (1955 Model) The monitor cranks for 1 min then rests and tries 3 times. Everything is adjustable. It knows to stop cranking when it sees AC voltage from the Gen. so the motor over runs the starter for just a few seconds. Only a huge starter motor can take this abuse and last unattended. You may be money ahead to find out why the existing generator is not starting and get it fixed. Jerry Richardson wrote: We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
There are chargers such as the Iota batter charger/power supply http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls.htm which are clean enough to run directly off of even with no battery. With a battery the battery just floats (no current in or out) as long as the battery charger is supplied AC. Once the AC drops the system runs off the battery. When power returns the Iota charger charges the battery and supplies power to the load till the battery is charged and then it just floats again. Greg On Aug 2, 2009, at 7:35 PM, Scott Carullo wrote: Can you use a battery charger to essentially run your load from? Also will that load cause a smart charger to act not so smart because of the load on it? Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x102 On Aug 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: How long do you need to power it for? I'd suggest that this may be a great case for a couple of big batteries and an inverter. Just run the system off of the inverter all of the time, install a smart battery charger to keep the batteries properly charged. Cheaper than a generator, NO switch time. Ever. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com To: Motorola Canopy User Group motor...@wispa.org; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:34 AM Subject: [WISPA] Small auto start generator We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup but it does not start reliably. Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only need to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts. Thanks __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
