Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
I'd argue that headings after the content they 'head' fails the how it will appear without style sheets test. If styling's an issue, dig into your CSS selector toolbox for things like adjacent selectors (depending on browser support requirements) or, failing that, give it a 'listhead' class and style that directly – boring, I know! From a purely pragmatic standpoint you could probably cheat and stick the heading inside a ul/ol but expect issues in various IEs, where even white space in lists can cause problems. Better off going the adjacent selector route, methinks. Josh Street +61 (0) 425 808 469 On 05/03/2012, at 6:55, Elizabeth Spiegel w...@spiegelweb.com.au wrote: Lists are usually preceded by either a heading or a lead-in sentence. h1Characteristics of a well-formed list/h1 ul liList items have parallel forms./li li.../li /ul pWell-formed lists have:/p ul liparallel forms/li li.../ ul Think about how the list will appear with style sheets off: if you make the title/heading the first item in the list, then you've turned what's semantically a list of n items into a list of n+1 items. It's semantically appropriate to mark up the heading with h? even though it may mess with your structure in the sense of grading headings nicely (h1, h2 etc). Perhaps not so much of a problem if you place your menu after your content and use style sheets to place it. Regards, Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Dan Freeman Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2012 6:12 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice? I wouldn't recommend that. It may look OK stylistically, but not semantically. I believe H? before the list makes the most sense. - Dan Freeman -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of coder Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 1:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? ul li class=title strongQuick links/strong /li li a href=noticeboard.html title=news and Notices Noticeboard /a /li li a href=site/sitemap.html title=A list of site contents, with links Sitemap /a /li li a href=site/sitepolicy.html Site policy /a /li li a href=site/links.html title=further information Useful links /a /li /ul?? Works for me!Bob- Original Message - From: David Dorward da...@dorward.me.uk To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? On 2 Mar 2012, at 17:07, Hanspeter Kadel wrote: looks like back in 1984 people could use LH for the job. No, they couldn't. It was proposed for HTML 3, but that spec was ditched in favour of documenting the then current state of the browser wars. how to do it in 2012? h? before the list. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** LEXI-COMP CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this electronic mail is intended for the named recipients only. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended receiver is prohibited. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this electronic e-mail or by calling 330-650-6506. Please delete it from your computer. Thank you. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
Re: [WSG] CSS3 Development tools?
Hi Mike, Even if you're not an Eclipse fan Aptana is still worth a shot (I say this as it shares a lot of common code/is a plugin for Eclipse) While it feels heavier than Dreamweaver it has pretty nice completion and is aware of up to date syntax. If you want to work with markup in it as well it's aware of where you've used class names in templates previously and will hint accordingly both for writing CSS selectors and HTML. I'm aware this is quite an integrated approach - perhaps others can suggest standalone tools? I remember stumbling over a few newish OS X-only tools that I now can't remember names of that were standalone and looked pretty… Josh Street +61 (0) 425 808 469 On 12/10/2011, at 17:00, Mike Kear w...@afpwebworks.com wrote: Thanks Carlo. Perhaps i should also add that I build dynamic ColdFusion sites, and use Dreamweaver CS5.5 for my development tool. Few CF developers use Dreamweaver – they tend to use Eclipse or its derivatives. I have found that Dreamweaver doesn’t do much for CSS, unless you use the so-called WYSIWYG design mode – and that’s a hopelessly inefficient mode for efficient dynamic pages. Specially when you’re using modular software design, with things like ColdSpring handling the component management etc. And since all my display pages have a header file that holds the CSS calls, the body pages never have the CSS classes available. That’s why I have been using TopStyle for developing style sheets – it is stand-alone and doesn’t require the dynamic pages to exist before it can display a sample of the effect you’re coding. I just wish TopStyle was available to handle CSS3. I assume it will be one day, but I need a tool to help me NOW. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of carlo juancho funtanilla Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2011 4:32 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS3 Development tools? Try Dreamweaver CS5 On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Mike Kear w...@afpwebworks.com wrote: I’ve been using TopStyle4 for developing my CSS files, but it still isn’t supporting CSS3. What tools are you others using to develop CSS3 files? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] flat form with check boxes [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Chris Vickery chris.vick...@oaic.gov.au wrote: We’ve got some flat forms on our site, ie. They are not interactive forms, and have no submit button. They are indicating that it’s a check list that can be ticked once the page is printed. Hi Chris, Can you use a print stylesheet to change the appearance of the checkboxes slightly in screen view, and make the checkboxes 'disabled'? Or do you expect users will check boxes then print the form out (similar to many PDF forms?) Someone suggested putting in regular check boxes and having no submit button, but wouldn’t that make it confusing from both and accessibility and usability point of view? FWIW, I think offline forms are confusing from an usability/accessiblity point of view! ... but I suspect that, as we're having this conversation at all, there's no real alternative here. Cheers, Josh -- Josh Street http://josh.st/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] FINAL VERSION OF MY SITE
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Paul Novitski p...@juniperwebcraft.com wrote: A few quick notes: 1) Phone number formats vary from place to place, but in North America at least the convention is to insert spacing or punctuation between the first '1' and the area code. I would change 1800-Joe-Fruit to 1-800-Joe-Fruit unless the Australian convention differs. FWIW, the convention does vary and Marvin is correct in Australian usage. :) -- Josh Street http://josh.st/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS Validation Error
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: -moz is a vendor prefix (not CSS3) Actually, vendor prefixes are a part of both CSS 2.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#vendor-keywords as well as the CSS3 working draft... they're for proprietary extensions, of course, but it's always seemed odd to me that the validator doesn't recognise a vendor-prefix as per spec (irrespective of the specific vendor extension) and ignore it accordingly. -- Josh Street http://josh.st/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS Validation Error
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: -moz is a vendor prefix (not CSS3) Actually, vendor prefixes are a part of both CSS 2.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#vendor-keywords as well as the CSS3 working draft... they're for proprietary extensions, of course, but it's always seemed odd to me that the validator doesn't recognise a vendor-prefix as per spec (irrespective of the specific vendor extension) and ignore it accordingly. The prefix may be part of it to address parsing issues, but - afaik - that does not make these extensions CSS properties. Indeed - yet therein lies the frustration at the validator failing to correctly parse as per spec. -- Josh Street http://josh.st/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS Validation Error
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 6:16 PM, David Dorward da...@dorward.me.uk wrote: On 4 Feb 2010, at 03:29, Joshua Street wrote: The prefix may be part of it to address parsing issues, but - afaik - that does not make these extensions CSS properties. Indeed - yet therein lies the frustration at the validator failing to correctly parse as per spec. The validator does correctly parse as per the spec. The spec defines a way for vendor prefixes to exist without conflicting with anything in CSS, no more. This makes them part of the grammar, not the vocabulary, and the validator checks both. The CSS 2.1 specification says Authors should avoid vendor-specific extensions. I agree vendor-specific extensions do not constitute acceptable vocabulary, but as the specification allows a grammatical means for their inclusion it seems counter-productive to flag them as errors. The specification assures authors and vendors that An initial dash or underscore is guaranteed never to be used in a property or keyword by any current or future level of CSS - and, accordingly, they are (and will remain) grammatically permissible / safe for use. The imperative to avoid these extensions lacks explanation and, while this list is (by virtue of our name!) perhaps not the place for such views, seems to stem from the desire to preserve the appearance of standardisation rather than maximising the utility and flexibility of the standard in question. As a counterpoint to this, of course, using standards-compliant techniques to achieve an outcome will more successfully preserve interoperability into the future. However, I would assert the advice to avoid vendor-specific extensions should be constrained by this, rather than suggesting that a guaranteed future-compatible (albeit potentially no longer functional, contingent on ongoing vendor support) identifier should be avoided unswervingly. So I guess my problem is with the language of the specification as much as with the validator - but I feel there is probably enough ambiguity in the specification around this (i.e. why introduce a feature only to advise authors to avoid implementations applying this feature?!) that the validator should, on the basis of grammar, accept flexible vocabulary following this dash (-) or underscore (_) prefix. There are good, pragmatic reasons for both approaches - but erring on the side of flexibility here does nothing to damage the abilities of compliant user-agents, or the fabric of the standards-based web. Particularly in seasons where we wait for finalisation of good and important features into usable, non-draft-form standards, the validator's interpretation remains unhelpful. -- Josh Street http://josh.st/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] website fonts
Adding to what Tim said, It's possible that you're experiencing problems with Helvetica just because of a typo (you had written Helvitica). Also, it does not come with Windows Vista or Microsoft Office. Hope this helps! On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Tim Snadden li...@snadden.com wrote: On 22/06/2009, at 3:58 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote: hi. just looked at my fonts. need the following fonts: arial, helvitica, sans-serif and verdana. do not have these fonts for windows vista. think that was the problem, why not saying the name. can you help? Hi Marvin - I'm going to assume that you are running Windows. If this is the case then it is *highly* unlikely that you don't have at least arial from that list. The other thing to bear in mind is that 'sans-serif' is not a font but is a style or family of fonts that share a particular look (they don't have 'serifs' which are little flicks at the end of letter forms). I haven't seen your actual code but if your HTML is correctly pointing to a CSS file and your CSS is using a valid font declaration then it should work. If it doesn't then there may be something up with your operating system thinking that fonts are in a different place to where they really are or maybe something up with your Jaws setup. When you specify fonts with CSS the usual pattern is to list your fonts in the order that you prefer. Each one is a fallback position if the prior one doesn't exist on the system. Normally the last one in the list is 'sans-serif' (or 'serif' etc.). This is essentially saying that if you don't have *any* of the listed fonts on the system then use whatever is the default 'sans-serif' font. I hope that helps. Tim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Josh Street http://josh.st/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] object element in front of all content
Why not just use a transitional doctype? On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Robin Gorry rob...@xplore.net wrote: Hi All, I am putting together a basic cross browser wysiwyg using the object element instead of an iframe to display the html, as the object element is standards compliant. The object is used to display another html page like so: object name=textEditorObject id=textEditorObject data=test_page/test.htm type=text/html /object However my problem is with IE, when I open my floating div for a dialog box it renders behind the object and any amount of z-index toggling or adding *param* name=wmode value=*opaque*; (which works or flash) doesn't work. Does anyone have a solution to this or do I just have to work around it? Like so: !--[if IE] iframe name=textEditorObject id=textEditorObject src=test_page/bluemoo.htm /iframe ![endif]-- !--[if !IE] -- object name=textEditorObject id=textEditorObject data=test_page/bluemoo.htm type=text/html /object !-- ![endif]-- Although this would be a big branch for ie. Thank you Robin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Josh Street http://josh.st/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate
http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/all-older.html That's the official source. On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Thanks for your replies to this thread last week. I'm on a PC today and trying to get both versions of Firefox running, the only issue is, I can't find where to download version 2 of Firefox anymore! Mozilla have made it very hard to find previous versions Does anyone know where you can get version 2?! Cheers 2008/6/19 Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: select custom install and install it to another directory (something like /Mozilla/Firefox3) and the two will run side-by-side. You can do this with Opera too. :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Josh Street http://josh.st/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Testing emails for Outlook 2007
On 11/7/07, Mohamed Jama [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could always open the page in word document and if everything looks fine there it will look fine in outlook 2007 since its using MS Word to render! Problem with that is potential differences between Word HTML rendering 2003 - 2007. I haven't really looked into it but it would stand to reason there may be differences... they stupidly thought it good enough to be the sole renderer for the most widely used email client on the planet, so you'd at least hope it improved... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Testing emails for Outlook 2007
On 11/7/07, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just wondering if anyone has found a clever way of testing your HTML emails for Outlook 2007? I don't have Vista and can't see myself buying it just yet! Office 2007 runs fine on XP, with the new stupid Word rendering engine and all. And assuming you don't buy an OEM copy the license will be valid on Vista if you ever do upgrade (and if you DO buy an OEM copy and upgrade to Vista on the same hardware, it's still valid). If you're regularly testing for Outlook '07, probably a worthwhile investment over remote-hosted services. That said I've got no hard numbers on usage stats for it... we're testing for it, but it's possibly not significant just yet. http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa338201.aspx is a useful resource. Hope this helps Josh *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera for Nintendo Wii and CSS
On 10/25/07, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seeing as it looks like your developing for the browser without actually having a Wii. I believe the PAL resolution is 480p (720x480). Obviously also just take care not to have anything too fancy as it may be difficult to interact with. NTSC is 420p/i, PAL has 576 lines of vertical resolution. Also 720 wide. It will display at 25Hz at full-frame resolution, but I doubt very much whether most video content on the web is even approaching 25fps, much less that the Wii is capable of rendering full-frame (i.e. not-interlaced) web video without hardware accelleration... which it might have, but not that I've heard of. I seem to recall a friend using his Wii to playback Youtube content, so it certainly can deal with video in some capacity... just don't go pushing tremendous frame rates or high-def H264 content ;-) -- Joshua Street http://josh.st/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Equal Height Columns/OTL background images
Hi all, I've got this design that requires equal height columns *and* background images positioned at the bottom of each column. I'm using the One True Layout Equal Height Columns technique, but can't for the life of me figure out how to prevent a bottom-aligned background image from disappearing into the 30thousand pixel padding void the technique depends upon. The heights are fluid, the widths is fixed. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Any help appreciated! Josh -- Joshua Street http://josh.st/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?
On 7/2/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am curious as to whether 'skip to' links are any use, particularly when in multiples. I can't speak for AT users per se, but it sure is helpful when browsing on my mobile device (a Sony Ericsson V630i... not a PDA, so scrolling is that much more painful). -- Joshua Street http://josh.st/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
My vote generally goes in for tables. Use th cells appropriately and there's a clear relationship there. Definition lists are semantically on par, but often harder to implement/require effort to make them *look like a table* (which is what people expect when filling out forms, on paper or on the web). -josh On 5/22/07, Benedict Wyss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I am having a discussion with colleagues here at work (won't mention our site as it stinks) about the best way forward for form layouts. I have one person saying he will continue to use tables till otherwise informed. I have another who uses none of the above, which you can imaging is not that good to look at with everything butting up against each other. His other suggestion was to add nbsp's to move things about. I like to use the definition list with Labels. Now I know the dl I am using is not being used exactly as it was originally used (good point), but I say it is 100 times better than tables. Can I get a WSG response on the best format to layout a form. Cheers, Ben *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Joshua Street http://josh.st/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] colour matching transparent png files
On 4/12/07, David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 8-bit PNG works very well, even in IE 5.01. Graphics programs such as Photoshop add a lot of cruft to PNG files, so you need to get an optimizing tool. The result will likely be significantly smaller than a GIF. This is true. Alpha info changes the appearance of even 8-bit (indexed) PNG files in IE (and possibly Safari?), though Firefox and Opera ignore the information. My preferred fix is to re-save files using the GIMP. I'm sure there's a clever command-line script someone's cooked up that uses PNGcrush or similar, but I don't know it. -- Joshua Street http://josh.st/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ABN 64 515 086 181 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Markup for Poetry?
On 3/30/07, Jeremy Boggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm working on a website that contains a number of poems. Are there any discussions or examples on strategies for marking up and styling poetry? I haven't started doing markup yet, but if it would help folks on the list, I could that and post the links. We discussed this sometime back in 2004, and I've got a bit of an overview of everything that happened here: http://josh.st/blog/2004/10/24/the-indentation-problem My preferred solution to come out of it was: p class=stanza spanLine 1br / Line 2/span spanLine 3br / Line 4/span /p There are a range of other possibilities listed on that page, also. In most real-world practice, most websites use non-breaking spaces extensively. This is, obviously, less than ideal in terms of unbloated semantic markup! -- Joshua Street http://josh.st/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] How to mark up a flowchart?
On 3/26/07, Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to incorporate a couple of simple flowcharts into the content of a site I'm building, I'm scratching my head about the best way to mark up this info in a semantically meaningful way. Forgive me if I sound defeatist in this, but does anyone have any ideas as to how to best markup a film in a webpage in a semantically meaningful way? No-one? That's because it's outside the scope of published semantics (HTML schemas, etc.) for regular web publishing, surely. Flash would be a good way to produce accessible flowcharts (it lets you re-use symbols, etc., so there is a sense in which it has more inherent semantics than an image would) -- but it's not markup. That's a simple flowchart, too -- anything slightly more recursive and even the most horrifically nested [definition/ordered/unordered] list wouldn't suffice to represent its meaning. And, remember, it's one thing to create a technically-accurate solution, but quite another to produce an accessible generally sensible (usable) one. If you must stick to the image/text paradigm, I don't think there are semantics to help your cause. My best effort suggestion at that point would be to have an image with extensive alt text/longdesc or a big fat caption under the flowchart, attempting to explain the process in plain english. Of course, the linguistic complexity of such an undertaking could well approach that of the potentially-messy semantics to which it is presented as an alternative... I have no answer. :P Josh -- Joshua Street http://josh.st/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] How to mark up a flowchart?
On 3/26/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This algorithm meaningfully marked up as what it is - as a series of nested lists (HTML). Not all flowcharts can be nested without things occurring in multiple places and generally not making sense at all of what is first and foremost a visual form of communication. -- Joshua Street http://josh.st/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] How to mark up a flowchart?
On 3/26/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nobody mentioned nesting flowcharts (whatever that means: a flowchart is a flowchart). Well, no, but you'd have to nest *L's to represent recursion in a flowchart. The flowchart is recursive, therefore the definition/unordered/ordered list is nested inaccurately recurring because HTML is still designed for linear document structure, despite that whole crazy hypertext thing. On 3/26/07, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Without opening another can of worms, there actually *is* a way to add meaning to films - called SMIL - Synchronized Multimedia Integration Language. Yeah, you're right... but that's still using another technology. What I don't get with that is the point to having 'standards' that require a not-so-widely-available implementation to be applied. I could write the JSSFLA (Josh Street Standard For Long-winded Acroynms) and it has absolutely no clout until there are several acronym providers that bother to implement that standard consistently -- especially with multimedia things, this is historically a problem. (For a more recent example of the mess that is multimedia, look at all the competing consumer/prosumer/professional high definition video standards) That said, SMIL has decent vendor support where it's implemented, but last time I looked into it I'm not sure if it was possible with Windows Media content except with a separate proprietary Microsoft spec for the same sort of thing -- and, though there are some helpful authoring tools out there [1], semantically representing a film can actually mean more than captioning. Captioning is accessibility -- preserving semantics using markup to represent a visual message is something else that's rather more elusive. All of this, whilst academically interesting, probably has little bearing on the problem at hand... I just thought film was a good example of how even when you can communicate with dynamic equivalence what's going on, you're probably still not going to be doing this in a structured way. That is, you'd probably use a blob of text perhaps grouped into paragraphs to give a summary of the visual action/staging information, rather than simply supply time-coded captioning (though you may also do this), in order to fully encapsulate the content of a film. Josh 1. http://ncam.wgbh.org/webaccess/magpie/index.html - was mentioned in Links for Light Reading a few weeks back I think... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Recommendations for Usability sub-contractor; SEC=UNCLASSIFIED
On 01/03/2007, at 1:00 PM, John Faulds wrote: Rather than just dissing someone else's contribution, why don't you come up with a viable alternative instead? On 3/1/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What a statement! Are we hear for W3C standards or fiction? ANyone touting for work here should be fairly subject to at least W3C validation tests! Or else! What are the standards? Please. Call the search for a usability contractor off-topic if you will, but it's perfectly possible to have completely unusable sites that are standards-perfect and accessible. That's why people do research into site structures, eyetracking, and loads of other things that have absolutely _nothing_ to do with what markup you are using. That said, validity can be a _part_ of usability (and certainly the only bit of relevance on this list) -- but if people are participating in this list, it seems an awfully odd place to have to convince them of the value of web standards. For the vast majority of users, web standards or not are completely transparent. Accessible and usable websites don't require the separation of presentation and content (yes, I have my riot shield handy) for the overwhelming majority of users -- which is, afterall, what usability testing is about (your testing is only as good as your tester sample). Good websites will accommodate all users, but my understanding of usability testing was that it's more concerned with broader architectural and interaction concerns than the technologies that drive these -- though of course the technologies will have an impact in certain cases. I guess I think this whole thread is off-topic more than anything... but maybe I missed something. By the way, what on earth is A viable alternative Validated W3C XHTML 1.0 Strict with multiple stylesheet options. supposed to mean? and what does that have to do with evaluating websites -- reeling off a list of technologies is not an applied usability solution, and bears absolutely no relation to the original question. ~a generally quite flame-retardant Josh who will hopefully resist touching this thread again p.s. I'm no list mod, but I still recommend responding directly to the OP about this. As Mike (who _is_ a core team member/mod) said, potential sub-contractor usability consultants in Canberra is of absolutely no interest to AT LEAST 96.1% of the list (assuming that _every_ member in Canberra actually cares... which they won't). -- Joshua Street http://josh.st/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] H1 not aligning to top
On 3/21/06, Taco Fleur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't get the header to align to the top, there is a white space between the About Lyte and the top navigation. Does anyone have any idea? Tried adjusting line-height: ? Makes it better just quickly playing here in Firefox. Also, that menu really looks a lot like it should be a list... just a thought :-) Josh -- Joshua Street http://joahua.com/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CAPS in stylesheets
On 3/13/06, sime [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have never had a problem with the uppercase not working in strict. Maybe I'm not defining strict correctly. Here is a test page which works in FF,IE6: http://urbits.com/_/test.php You're serving it as text/html. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CAPS in stylesheets
On 3/13/06, sime [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rephrased, what are the different situations in which you'd use HTML4 over XHTML1? So far I've been led to believe (outside of this list) that XHTML is a step forward. You're serving your XHTML as text/html, so it's effectively being parsed as HTML anyway. If you were using XHTML served as application/xhtml+xml (is that right? can't recall the exact string right now...), which is as it should be if you actually have a reason for using XHTML aside from it's like HTML, only... extensible! (without knowing what extensible entails) then every time you had a trivial markup error browsers would give a nice big parser error page (with the exception of our esteemed friend Internet Explorer, which doesn't even attempt to render pages served as anything other than text/html). XHTML *could* be a step forward if you desparately need to be able to parse your pages and use XSLT or something, but barring that there's absolutely nothing wrong with HTML 4. Even with XML, it's only sensible to use a schema with widely recognised semantics -- so, whilst you can theoretically add your own elements, etc., to an XML document, there's no point if these elements exist outside the vocabulary of any parsers (I'm thinking specifically of search engines, but there are others for which this matters). With XHTML for today's web, you can only really consider using it as HTML anyway (unless you have a highly controlled intranet environment, but that's internal) in terms of how it's served, and the scope of the schema: and this latter point is unlikely to vary much even in the future, one would hope, for the sake of backwards-compatability. Josh ~ who hasn't ranted about XHTML vs HTML before at any great length and may be slightly off on the specifics of certain points ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CAPS in stylesheets
On 3/13/06, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have also read (no personal first hand knowledge) that there can be issues between using DOM/DHTML scripts and XHTML. I don't know what these issues are but why invite trouble. This arises from non-DOM methods, which are often much simpler to implement (and faster in terms of performance), such as innerHTML [1] (and document.write, but we won't go there). I *think* this is because innerHTML/outerHTML/document.write and their kin leave the XML tree alone -- any elements in the inserted content _aren't_ created as elements, and hence cannot be manipulated at all. (That aside, I don't really see anything wrong with this [innerHTML] -- we must remember that XMLHttpRequest object is also proprietary!) Obviously if you do this with an XML document then you wind up with un-parsed structure (it renders, but it's not part of the tree), which can mean problems. Apparently Firefox 1.5 copes okay with this, somehow. Josh 1.http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/innerhtml.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Wanted ASAP: Clean and Simple image gallery script
On 3/12/06, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am open to other suggestions from members though. http://cat-scan.net/ (but this uses flat-files rather than a database). -- Joshua Street http://joahua.com/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Horizontal Menu- Site Check
On 3/9/06, Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Site: http://69.94.122.44/new.php?/caribbean/category/antiqua/ No help there right now, coz I'm at home and without access to IE, BUT... I do have a bug report for you. Firefox 1.0.x/Linux (and presumably on every other platform, and probably 1.5 also) your menubase.gif background for the Destinations menu (left column) really isn't working too well. I sized the text up and down and still couldn't get it to match the lines in the background image. You probably should seriously think about putting that background on the LI instead, because it's... moderately broken at the minute (I imagine it could/would also be broken in IE at non-default (or even default) text sizes, too). That aside, I like the site... especially the front page... nifty boxes! (Mind you, the smaller square content boxes are doing some funky stuff with enable/disable CSS with web developer's toolbar in Firefox... suffice to say you won't have too many people with that problem outside this list! ;-)) Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] targeting link class problem
On 3/7/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How would i target a:hover on the following links? I tried a few things but cant get down to the classes(one, two). div id=navcontainershort ul li a href=# class=onebla bla/a/li li a href=# class=twobla/a/li #navcontainershort a.one:hover doesn't work? If not try putting the class on LI and targetting as #navcontainershort [optional li].one a:hover hth, josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] o 0
On 3/4/06, Jens Brueckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a font for the web that has a distinction between the uppercase letter O and the number 0. If such a font exist, which is it? Georgia uses pretty much the same shape for o, 0 and O, but lower-case is small, zero is bigger, and capital is largest. A distinction, though not always a helpful one. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] o 0
On 3/4/06, Vicki Berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My own main bugbear is in product serial numbers where there is a mixture of numbers and letters. It's all very well knowing that O is rounder than 0, but if you don't have one of each to compare, it can be very hit-and-miss. I'm sure there must be many other situations on and off the web where usability is impaired in this way. We've excluded these characters (0,o,1,l,i, and maybe a handful of others I don't recall) for the Sunrise Family website [1] wherever randomly generated (reset) passwords are sent out to users. This would definitely have had an impact on feedback + phonecalls to 7: it's difficult to underestimate the stupidity of large numbers of people. Of course, we can only catch so many problems. The first week of the site's life was characterised by messages from people saying I entered my ISP username/password and can't login... why? Heh. (A few extra REGISTER links have been scattered around the place since!) Sigh. Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please
On 3/1/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It validates and renders correctly on FF 1.5, Opera 8.5 and IE 6.0. The only issue I discovered so far is a layout break when I zoom the text to unbelievable sizes in FF. Unbelievable sizes here being one step DOWN (decreasing font size) in Firefox1.5/Win, or two steps down in IE. I wouldn't discount any of the offered sizes in IE as unbelievable, even IF they're smaller (and the trend on this list is to advocate larger/unchanged default font sizes). That aside, nice design, looks fine in FF/Lin. I'd check Safari for you but someone stole my Mac's mouse (apparently we have a pest-deficiency in the office!)... Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Plain text v HTML on this list
On 2/22/06, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 22 Feb 2006, at 2:50 PM, Lachlan Hunt wrote: Outlook users should ...switch to a better mail client that isn't broken. Outllok can be configured to send plain text can't it? I think Lachlan meant that + bottom-quoting? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check
On 2/18/06, Paul Sturgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/16/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The BIGGEST thing I can see wrong with this site is the image map. Obviously the link areas aren't regular shapes, so even if you were to use a UL (navigation list) with positioned LI elements you couldn't achieve the same effect... May I point you in the direction of http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites An old article but the technique is excellent. Yes, aware of this. I was referring to non-standard shape links achievable only with Flash and/or imagemap co-ordinates (i.e. links that aren't box-shaped!) Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check
On 2/17/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://63.134.237.108/ any feedback at all greatly appreciated Table-based layout? Was that guy looking at the same site? Looks pretty layout-table free to me... You're missing a H1, which isn't great... wrap the header image in an H1 element (because it's already got ALT text, so there's nothing particularly wrong with this IMO) for starters. The BIGGEST thing I can see wrong with this site is the image map. Obviously the link areas aren't regular shapes, so even if you were to use a UL (navigation list) with positioned LI elements you couldn't achieve the same effect... so maybe build a UL version that just has slightly-less-perfect (geographical) clickable areas and replace that with a Flash version if the user's browser supports it? Yeah, I'm suggesting Flash... because it would work great there. Vector graphic, you can have objects whatever shapes you like (and rollovers quickly and easily, oh my!), and (most importantly) it can degrade really well when there's no Flash available (object element... google flash graceful degradation if this doesn't sound familiar) Aside from that, great site. The third-party consultant seem to have not even looked at your markup if they're seeing tables... same goes for using semantic markup, it's mostly pretty good. Bizarre. Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check
One other thing... typo, your are here » above the imagemap. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check
On 2/17/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can i get a second opinion on felix's advice? It must've been offlist, but I'd guess it was about fonts ;-) My second opinion is I agree... he's generally right about such things! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE6/7 have horizontal scrollbars on this
http://solardreamstudios.com/learn/css/footerstick was one I remember from ages ago, but there's now a message there pointing to a revised version: http://www.themaninblue.com/experiment/footerStickAlt/ Not certain this is the behaviour you want, but it's pretty nifty nonetheless. On 2/11/06, Vaska [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: haha...after two days and coming back to the same problem four times...i got the message! thanks for th enote though... ;) On 10 Feb 2006, at 17:43, Vincent Hasselgård wrote: Sorry to break this to you, but you're trying to accomplish something that's as good as impossible (maybe not impossible, but you're most likely to unless you drop IE5 or alternatively give it another stylesheet that don't have a fixed footer. It just won't work for IE5 because of something or another. Robbie is right in one thing and that is it's the overflow:auto; that's causing your problems in IE5, take it away and the site will work. I'm quite sure that you may solve this with DOM and some javascript, but I don't know where you'd might find it. I essentially gave up the whole thing, part because of trouble with IE5 and part because I didn't like how it turned out in FireFox and IE6 either. On 2/10/06, Vaska [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This article does not create a footer that is fixed to the bottom of the screen. If your content is longer it will push the footer off the bottom of the screen. On 10 Feb 2006, at 11:33, Robbie Shepherd wrote: I'm guessing its due to the overflow: auto; in your #content div. Remove that, and use the DOM and some javascript to reset your footers (tutorial on http://www.alistapart.com/articles/footers/ ) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.
On 2/9/06, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is not meaningless, It is more readable than HTML, to a human. And when computers start to need to read websites automatically... Humans read content, computers read markup. Humans don't read HTML (excusing, perhaps, the rare breed that inhabit this list and certain other niches of the web) for its semantics, relying instead on visual/aural cues to determine the importance of content. Markup is for computers. Computers need to read websites automatically today... search engine, anyone? RSS/Atom auto-discovery in modern browsers? Copying and pasting semantic web content as rich text into another application? (If you're doing it all with CSS, the default styles of elements are often inherited... with non-(machine-defined)-semantic markup this isn't possible). It IS meaningless for all intents and purposes. Consider a plain text document: humans make a distinction between types of content, computers do not... hence markup. Admittedly, we also use markup to provide communication cues... but that's ancillary to the core of it. Unpopular though this idea may be, web standards (recommendations, whatever) are actually about ensuring that User Agents can do something meaningful with what they're handed. It's the User Agent's job to communicate that to the actual user... so we're catering for machines, not humans. Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.
Yep... I agree, hence web [...] recommendations are actually about rather than accessibility is actually about. Specs are purpose-agnostic (see pages that validate but are a semantic blight on the face of the web)... ironically, guidelines (human-language, practical documents) are actually more useful for applying technologies than the documents that define the technologies themselves! Josh On 2/9/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in the end, we *are* catering for humans. We just need to do so in a way that allows machines to effectively pass on our messages to the user; and that is what requires well-defined, computer-readable semantics. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
On 2/8/06, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's another approach you're sure not to like :-) http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/swapclass/outline/ Hmm... it'd be nicer if there weren't anchor tags in there/the H3 were used directly. Not being amazingly JavaScript saavy, is there a compelling reason why not? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Opera Labs and Opera 9 Preview 2
On 2/8/06, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: heretic wrote: ... Maybe the standards community prefer to ride ponies instead of real race-horses? ;-) Must be something to do with keeping nearer the earth. Opera spoils web developers, and makes Internet Explorer (and Firefox, to a lesser extent) that much more shocking ;-) More seriously, I still use Firefox as my primary browser chiefly because of its great web dev tools. Whenever not working, however, I love to use Opera. Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Padding Margin Problem
Works fine here with Firefox 1.0.7 + web developer toolbar, irrespective of whether or not the top margin of #header is set to 0. On 2/6/06, Paula Petrik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm doing something fairly simple. The problem arises when I apply margins to my #header. When I simply apply margin:10px to the #header, the left, right, and bottom work but not the top. When, however, I apply a padding-top:10px to the #wrapper and set the top margin of the #header to 0, the #header does what it needs to do. I'm mystified and looking for an explanation. Why isn't the top margin working on the #header? Valid files are up: http://www.archiva.net/expo3.html http://www.archiva.net/expo3.css Best, Paula Paula Petrik Professor Department of History Art History Associate Director Center for History New Media George Mason University http://www.archiva.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Yes, but can you use an anchor fragment to link to a point in an Acrobat document? The other thing is why would we even bother with that when we have hypertext? On one site I did recently, the client wanted a PDF brochure with _identical_ information to what was in hypertext included. The PDF brochure in question was some non-standard size, so people couldn't even print it, yet the client wanted it there (probably because they'd paid some designer too much money for it). It's useless content, and it's achieved easier and better with hypertext. Why? I do see PDF's applications (disseminating print documents that universally render the same -- though they don't ALWAYS look the same, but we won't go there), just not as a markup replacement. Felix's link to Alertbox is great, btw... On 2/3/06, Ray Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:47 PM 3/02/2006, Stephen Stagg wrote: PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page (rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) PDF's can and do contain hyperlinks and bookmarks, whether made in Acrobat or dynamically generated via PHP et al... Best Regards Ray Cauchi Manager/Lead Developer ( T W E E K ! ) PO Box 15 Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 2782 | p:+61 2 4757 1600 | f:+61 2 4757 3808 | m:0414 270 400 | e:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | w: http://www.tweek.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 hacks
On 2/4/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well someone here (no names :) told me a while back that the *hmtl hack was ie future proof so maybe not. Well, it is. It's not going to affect any more versions of Internet Explorer (this has been known for some time now), hence any rules you put into that are isolated and can only affect past versions of the browser. THAT hack is future proof, what you put IN that hack may or may not be future proof depending on how IE's CSS support evolves. At present, it seems to be shaping up pretty well (far better than I'd anticipated...), so we hopefully won't even need hacks/conditional comments 99% of the time once it hits final! Obviously, keep reporting bugs. Far better we complain lots and loudly now so the IE team know about CSS issues that continue to plague IE's engine than be stuck waiting until IE8 in 2015 or whenever it will be! Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Yes, it's a good thing. PDF's aren't web pages. This is the distinction between a web site and a web application: applications are 'expected' to have 'application-like' behaviour (such as new windows, etc.). Also, PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page (rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) so to expect it to appear AS a web page is flawed: there is no way of navigating out of it but to close the window, or press Back. Users (correctly, IMO) identify Acrobat as a separate, non-web application, and hence expect the way to return to web content is to close Acrobat (i.e. if you've loaded it in a browser, the browser window). They're not going to look for the Back button here. Also I wasn't aware of way to override browser object settings for PDF files easily -- by all means feel free to correct me, but I doubt very much users do this by 'preference' one way or another. Josh On 2/3/06, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2 Feb 2006, at 20:57, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the server to send it as an octet stream). Doing so would override the local browser's setting. Is this 'a good thing'? I would have thought that trying to force the browser to do a particular, non-default, action is rather like setting your text- size in PX and then writing a script to force Firefox to use those font-sizes. YOU may not like the way that PDFs open in the current window, but if that is the case then configure your browser to open Acrobat documents in a new window. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Ah, righto. Linux user here, apologies... it's obviously simpler on other desktop systems ;-) On 2/3/06, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joshua Street wrote: Also I wasn't aware of way to override browser object settings for PDF files easily -- by all means feel free to correct me, but I doubt very much users do this by 'preference' one way or another. It's something that need to be set in Acrobat's preferences (under the Internet category, uncheck Display PDF in browser) P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
My biggest concern is PDF's lack of hypertext structure. At present, it can do outbound links, it can even do web forms, but there's no way to link to an anchor within a document. Hence, to address it as though it were just another webpage is, to me, detaching hypertext from the web. HTML = HyperText Markup Language, whilst PDF = Portable Document Format. Documents are separate to Hypertext in that they are defined, and, as I perceive it related in purely linear fashion -- parallel fashion, even -- to the web (you download it, you read. No interaction.) PDF is getting more feature-rich, sure, but is it supplanting markup? For visually complex documents/presentations, I'd _personally_ lean more towards hybrid markup/Flash (with appropriate accessibility controls) than PDF, unless a PDF already existed and was accessible (for example, large, complex documents such as annual reports, etc.). Forms, on the other hand, seem to be pointless in a PDF unless it's intended as a hypertext replacement -- which (IMO) it shouldn't me. *$0.05 expired. Insert more to continue.* Josh On 2/3/06, Marilyn Langfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going to stick my neck out here folks... PDF presentation on the web is getting better. Example: http:// www.bamagazine.com/?Click=40472 I tried to download one of the pdfs (in Safari 2.0.3) and it opened instead. I actually preferred reading it in Safari to opening Acrobat and reading it there. Surprised myself. I wouldn't want pdf to supplant HTML web pages, but for those visually complex documents/presentations that don't work well in HTML, I can see a use for pdf display in the browser. And Adobe is adding accessibility aids (depends on the designer to implement them though). I think I prefer this to Flash. Soon, I'm afraid we'll see lots of Flash and pdf combined, so get ready. One day you may wish there were more plain pdfs, instead of whatever hybrid Flash/pdf becomes. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Re: [WSG] IE7 Now what?
Microsoft has newsgroups for identifying and reporting bugs. I blogged a for/against thing on IE7 preview beta 2 after having played with it for a morning, http://joahua.com/blog/2006/02/01/ie7-beta-2 , and discovered a zoom bug that doesn't play nice with CSS backgrounds. Bug is here: http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/list/en-us/default.aspx?dg=microsoft.public.internetexplorer.generaltid=42be81fd-c05e-4b16-bac5-3976493b33a0cat=en_us_28cca3eb-7037-4d4f-bde1-d8efee1f1420lang=encr=ussloc=en-usm=1p=1 - please vote for it! Shameless self-promotion aside, that newsgroup looks like something to watch + be active in until it gets closer to final. We won't really know for sure what render bugs IE7 is going to have until we get there, but for now the best tactic is probably to treat it like a standards-compliant browser (because, from what I've seen of it, it's definitely getting there) and if you find problems report them. (And maybe shout about them in here so they get votes from people on list + get noticed + fixed!) A good first-step would be to ensure your conditional-comments are if lte IE 6, and see how IE7 goes then. Josh On 2/2/06, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, but I fail to see what this has to do with the Beta 2 version. The Beta 2 version is installed on top of IE 6 and acts as it should so far. I am assuming that they have fixed any issues with Beta 1 before releasing a public beta. I have uninstalled it and all works fine in IE6 but what I want to make sure is that I can fix issues with my previous designs so that they don't remain broken in IE7 when it is in GA release. I will restate my question to be more clear: Are there any resources, index, tables or references on specific differences between IE7 box model and other browsers that will enable me to check and correct for layout issues that will exist on designs in IE 7? I don't want to have to try tweaking every single line of my stylesheets to GUESS if I have fixed it (as we all know, just because it LOOKS right in the browser doesn't mean that it IS right). There are two places I have found issues. One relates to display:table-cell and display: table. In addition I have some odd margins/padding issues with one site that doesn't exist in other sites with similar layout. All the best, Jay Jay Gilmore U)SmashingRed Web Marketing B)Jay Gilmore's SmashingRed Blog P) 902.529.0651 E) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Miles Davies wrote: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/19/ie7beta_patch_glitch/ You should think twice before installing any Microsoft Better products. On 01/02/06, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have downloaded IE7 Beta 2 and I have looked at a couple of my sites. I have found some problems (never mind how slow the programs is). I use some * html hacks and some display: inline block tricks to emulate tables in IE's 6 and lower. Are there resources for ways to fix these hacks that are backward compatible or is the only way the method suggested by IE team which is to use conditional comments in the *head* and use a separate stylesheet? Jay ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Background-Image download order
For the navigation, you can put all your nav images into the one file so that they all load at once, then use background-position to make them sit in place. As for making things readable before the background images download, how about setting a background colour as well? That way if users have images disabled (dialup users, etc.) they can still read your primary navigation. This will obviously only work if you're not dependent on the background being partially transparent for the nav. Josh On 2/2/06, Todd Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Everyone, We are in final testing for a largish site that uses a large amount of background images for navigation and various graphical effects (as all CSS-based sites do). We are finding that the background images for our main navigation are downloading last and as such the white text is unreadable untill the background arrives .. almost last. The list that drives this is right at the topm of the source code. Is there any logic I can apply (ordering CSS etc) that will affect the order the browser requests and downloads background images? Cheers Todd ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Separate mobile content considered harmful?
Hi all, This was big news a year or two ago now, but I just realised that, perhaps, a separate domain space for mobile content isn't particularly evil afterall. Tim Berners-Lee weighed in on this in May 2004 [1], and I do agree with everything outlined in that document -- but there is more. We're looking at mobile content for the Sunrise Family site, along similar lines to that on the Y!7 Sunrise WAP site [2]. However, this seems to make a great deal of sense for that website (crappy markup on the core Sunrise site notwithstanding) simply because the content has been trimmed down to something... intrinsically usable. I'm quietly a fan of this approach, I think, but would still be interested to hear compelling arguments against it. Obviously, I'd be keen to ensure any WAP content we produced was valid, just so there's less a pathetic mobile parser can give up on -- for example, I disagree with Yahoo!7's decision to ditch the doctype in their WAP pages, even if WAP data is still 3c/KB or whatever it is. If you're using WAP, you can probably afford it, plus they've used images for bullet points. A list would surely suffice! So I guess this is more of a content-based question. But the subdomain thing comes into it, too, as well as the fact that this equates to providing different versions for different devices. 1. http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/TLD 2. http://wap.yahoo.com.au/sunrise/ -- note the evil subdomain Regards, Josh -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css/html snippets
That web patterns thing people were bouncing around in here a month or so back? I've lost the address... if someone else doesn't post it, it's in the archives somewhere... probably something really obvious like webpatterns.org... Ah, yes, that's it. http://webpatterns.org/ On 2/2/06, Peter Ottery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on the topic of css patterns and re-usable chunks of code, there's plenty of whole css page layout resources that you can use as a starting point for your own stuff right, like the 'ol classics http://glish.com/css/ or http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/ what about the insides of those layouts? with every subsequent design i do i gather more and more html associated css chunks that i reuse over and over. if you were using dreamweaver you'd call them snippets. things like: a login box a search box a search results pagination bar a set of search results a contact us form etc... you get the idea. just the really common stuff. obviously customisation of these would be/is required in almost all cases as soon as you paste them in but at least a starting point is handy are there resources/collections of these snippets out there? i cant find anything decent. ie: clean / semantic / sensible / 2006. if not, maybe there's a need for something...? ~~~ Peter Ottery ~ Creative Director Daemon Pty Ltd 17 Roslyn Gardens Elizabeth Bay NSW 2011 http://www.daemon.com.au/ COMING SOON webDU - the web technology conference http://webdu.com.au/ Sydney, March 2/3 2006 ~~~ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] list's with header text
Regrettably not. I'd also love some way to associate a header element with content, much like fieldset's legend element does, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, because it'd be potentially hellish to make work consistently with some automated content management stuff!) no such thing exists. Mind you, linear association is pretty sensible, at least until we start doing stupid things with JavaScript/the DOM, so it's probably not an amazingly required element. Josh On 1/31/06, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all. Just wondering if there is such a thing as a header tag for a HTML list, ul or ol, such as the TH tag or the Summary tag for a table? Would be a handy feature, but I haven't seen anything like this out there yet? So you could have: The following are the days of the week 1. Monday 2. Tuesday 3. Wednesday and so on, with there being some method of indicating that the heading is related to the list items. Would anyone know if this is possible or a W3C plan in the works? Cheers Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 2 Q: New web site, which DTD I should use? and Compresion
1) HTML 4.01 Strict, unless you've got really ambitious plans and a very good idea what user agents will be in play: keeping in mind Internet Explorer doesn't support XHTML served as application/xhtml+xml, so it's still going to be parsed as straight HTML in that browser. 2) So far as I'm aware, that's what mod_gzip does on servers that support it. Whitespace supposedly compresses really well, so there's no real harm in leaving it if your server is compressing content. For a non-server-side-dependent solution, http://www.freshstartcafe.com/css-compress/ looks good for CSS compression, and if you're interested in compressing your HTML + Javascript I think you'd probably have to do it manually. I can't see how it'd make any great different so search engines, particularly if your pages are well-formed. Regards, Josh. On 1/31/06, Roberto Santana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, 1) I'm going to create a new website fully standard, CSS, XHTML, WAI... I'd like to know your opinion about which DTD I should use, advantages and disadvantages... XHTML 1.0 Transitional XHTML 1.0 Strict XHTML 1.1 2) What's your opinion about HTML, CSS and Javascript compresion techniques, removing spaces, line breaks... these could save a lot of bandwidth in a high visited website... But this could affect to spiders, Googlebot? Thanks! :: Roberto Santana ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 2 Q: New web site, which DTD I should use? and Compresion
Actually, on this XHTML/HTML point I have an anecdote to share. I recently started in a new job at a place that was aware CSS/semantic markup was the way to go, but didn't really have a clue as to how to go about that. Their content management system is filled with various legacy markup components which I'm slowly making people get rid of. I've found that the BEST way to make developers co-operate is to quietly put a bit of PHP in the header to serve application/xhtml+xml to browsers that support it, then watch them scratch their heads as previously-not-quite-well-formed pages that were parsed as soup degenerate into a page full of parser errors (n.b. this only works if the developers use a non-IE browser, obviously), forcing them to fix markup/ask what's wrong + why! Then, once all that is sorted out, quietly switch the doctype back and set the content-type back to text/html ;-) /devious Josh On 2/1/06, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So even if a site is written fully XHTML 1.0 Strict compliant, and validates as such, it is still recommended to use HTML 4.01 Strict? Francesco Francesco, Many list members here are going to suggest that you use HTML 4.01 instead as technically what the user agents (browsers in this case) receive is not XHTML as the Recommendation indicates which is as XML. What the browsers almost always receive is text/html. I used to question this whole thing and then I thought to myself there is no real point to use the XHTML anyway since it isn't served as the W3C recommends. Many developers are moved to use XHTML because others have or because it was newer than 4.01. That doesn't mean they were right in either case. Coding in 4.01 Strict is little different from XHTML except for the XML tag closure requirement and not using XHTML 1.0 strict served as html/text goes against the way it was intended to be served. Unfortunately there is much heated debate here often about this as the W3C's recommendations are so easy to interpret with slightly different outcomes for many people. All I would do is try to think about why you chose XHTML for your document. Is it because it is the correct doctype to use, the newer doctype or the popular doctype. I have gone to 4.01 Strict from XHTML 1.0 because I realised I was following the pack because it was the new, cool doctype, used by people I admire and look up to. Just because they are using it doesn't make it right. All the best, Jay Gilmore Developer/Consultant Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real Small Business. SmashingRed Web Marketing P) 902.529.0651 E) [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] No style
Practically speaking, it's a good idea to reset font-size, padding and
margin on * at the start of your CSS file. This does help improve
consistancy somewhat.
* {
padding:0;
margin:0;
font-size:100.01%;
}
Then, obviously, you can style individual elements from that, and you
know what the default (base) is if you want to undefine styles on
specific elements.
On 2/1/06, Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 1/31/06, Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Is there any way to specify in CSS that a certain area is to have no style
at all.
All browsers have a default style sheet, and there's differences
between the default styles in different browsers, so there's no such
thing as 'no style'. The closest you'll get is to specify the same
padding, margins, font etc as your most common browser displays when
no author styles are specified.
--
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.zombiecoder.com/
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Re: [WSG] No style
That's still going to be 1em of whatever 1em becomes by the time you
get down to #editableArea (i.e. 1em of (x) on #editableArea of (y) on
#body of (z) on #html), isn't it?
On 2/1/06, Seona Bellamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
One possible solution would be not so much to have 'no style' but to have a
blanket basic style in that div. So for example, you might do something
like:
#editableArea * {
font-size: 1em;
margin: 0;
padding: 3px;
}
That would make all of the content of that div, regardless of what it was
(a p, a heading, no element, etc) adopt those same rules. It would give you
uniformity across the contents which is, I believe, what you're looking for.
Cheers,
Seona.
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Re: [WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
On 2/1/06, Peter Ottery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I cant replicate it here using firefox 1.0.2 and win xp. you may have fixed it..? Nope, but it occurs less frequently on FF1.0.x/XP than on other OSs, and I've only actually looked at it in Firefox 1.0.7 in XP (I figured it'd be relatively consistent post 1.0, and I was testing on 1.0.4 on a Linux system, and 1.0.[something else] on a Mac!). It's possible it's just a 1.0.7 thing I guess. No one has passed on anything from the contact form, so if people are seeing the problem they're not saying anything/realising there is one. Mind you, from the first day's stats only 1.7% of users would be using Firefox 1.0.7, and probably 95% of those on Windows XP, so it's a pretty narrow segment of the audience affected. i think the design is awesome. a really stunning overall look - so pass on the congrats there. and you're coding looks like youve bent over backwards to retain the really tight visual treatment. awesome stuff. another high profile site gets some serious quality applied. bravo! :) Thanks :) Passed on your design compliments, too :) the *only* thing i could find of any decent feedback (i, like many others on this list lurk in the shadows unless i have something to add :) is that the yahoo logo uses a transparent background to sit on that black background, and the logo is reversed out as white. the result when printing is a white yahoo logo on white paper complete with jaggies. or seen here: (http://au.i1.yimg.com/au.yimg.com/i/mh/2/y7mh_def_1blkbg_2.gif). why not lose the transparency just sit it on a black background? then it'll print out as intended while still displaying fine on the site. Ah. I'd actually written + tested the print stylesheet then Yahoo!7 changed the universal nav on us at the last minute, so that one slipped through. It probably doesn't even need to print (certainly would be my preference), but if the Powers That Be want it retained (I don't think anyone at 7 has even noticed there's a print stylesheet :P) then I'll probably just do a version with a clearer black outline as a PNG. I should have picked this up when testing things un-styled, but didn't... the Yahoo! bar is at the bottom of source so that anyone without styles doesn't have to scroll past (or read past, or whatever) every new page. Thanks for your feedback :-) Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Moral High-horse - was Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
On 2/1/06, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And if your habits haven't changed in 10 years, then would you even be making any money? Isn't the web only 12 years old? Another thing to remember is that not everyone in web publishing has any financial incentive whatsoever. We're also trying to change the way non-professional web publishers think about the media they're creating/the means by which they are creating it, so the how are you making money doing THAT? argument for being generally dismissive of non-web-standardites is something to be avoided. -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
On 1/30/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joshua Street wrote: I'm assured it's not going to move! I wouldn't believe that. In fact, here's a perfect example of why 301 shouldn't have been used. On Today Tonight (another 7 network program, for those of you not in Australia), the host made a point of it to emphasise that the address had changed to: http://yahoo7.com.au/todaytonight The old site address has been this for a long time: http://seven.com.au/todaytonight I expected to get a redirect from the old site to the new site, but I didn't. So, I went to the new site address and guess what! I got a redirect from the *new* Yahoo7 address to the *old* (well, still current) address. Plus, it's a 301 Moved Permanently, so once they realise their mistake (assuming this is one, and not just some bogus advertising attempt) and they attempt to rectify it by redirecting in the other direction using a 301, I wonder what will happen with caches that still believe yahoo7.com.au is a permanent redirect to seven.com.au. I've never tried setting up a loop like that, but I'd imagine the results won't be too effective. Another thing, if they do decide to switch to redirection to work the other way, and when the deal between Yahoo and 7 expires, and they go back to the current address, it'll screw everything up. Trust me, they've gone through so many URIs in the last 6 years, it's not funny. There's i7.com.au, aol7.com.au (no longer belongs to 7 network), seven.com.au, sevennetwork.com.au, yahoo7.com.au and probably many more I'm unaware of. Yeah. However, for the Sunrise Family site, _our_ redirection (not that who 'they' and 'we' are actually matters to end users, but I feel a need to justify poor URI planning as being someone elses fault!) is purely internal. Apparently it's being promoted on the show as http://yahoo7.com.au/sunrise/ -- and they're expecting people to click through, rather than providing a direct link even when promoting it. Strikes me as being a odd (politics, surely), but completely out of our control. As for Seven's scattered history, it amused me to today discover an add for iPrimus on NineMSN.com.au ;-) Despite that, this one looks more certain for a handful of reasons... the Yahoo7 press release gives some clues, but it seems like Yahoo are hoping to basically head up Seven's online presence... and Seven seem to be complying. Should be interesting to watch unfold! ... mind you, all that is rather off topic, apologies! Still keen to hear anyone's suggestions as to the Firefox 1.0.x render problem... :) Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
Many thanks. I'd only tested Opera in 8.5x (because, IMO, it's reasonable to assume if people are using Opera they're probably going to be people who bother upgrading their software!), so I'll be sure to take a look :-) On 1/30/06, Justin Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/30/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still keen to hear anyone's suggestions as to the Firefox 1.0.x render problem... :) Josh Hi Josh, While on the topic of rendering bugs I just thought I would mention that in Opera 9 beta there is some funky stuff happening with the scrolling div on the deals page (http://sunrisefamily.com.au/current/content/deals/). It's quite probable that this is just an Opera rendering bug (version 9 is beta after all) but if you're interested you could check it out . cheers, Justin. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web Site Template Review
Two quick things. Your primary navigation list doesn't need to use pipe separators. It'd be much better to just use borders with CSS to achieve this. Also, maybe consider a skip to login as well as your skip to main content link. It makes things faster than tabbing through all the links between the top of the page and the form :-) Josh On 1/30/06, John S. Britsios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear co-members, we would kindly appreciate if you could have a look and give us a feedback on our web site redesign template, which may be viewed here: http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/ Especially we are concerned about: 1. Markup and Semantic issues; 2. OS/Browser/Screen Resolution compatibility; 3. Accessibility; 4. Usability. Thanks a lot in advance for your kind support. Best wishes and regards, John S. Britsios http://www.webnauts.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Screen readers and JavaScript WAS: Re: [WSG] standards-happy javascript for faq
On 1/30/06, Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does the toggle function have to be connected to a a element, or do JS-enabled screen readers recognize onClick events attached to other elements? To add to this question, what happens where screen readers with JavaScript result in an element's content changing? The change in the document isn't neccessarily linear (i.e. immediately after the present element) -- do screen readers notify users that content has changed? How do they interact with this new material? Is there any way to set the screen reader's 'focus' as with internal anchor references, without impacting normal browsers? Hope this makes some sense... Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Display problem in IE for the PC
Maybe give #169; a shot instead of copy; ... not certain, but it may help. Love the design, by the way. On 1/31/06, Kara Spellman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, This my first website using CSS. I've gotten most of the bugs out of it except for one on the home page. For some reason the copyright caption is forcing the last 2 letters below the colored background box. Not sure why. I've messed around with the CSS, but nothing corrects it. It only happens on IE. I'm using a PC with Windows XP Home (latest version) and IE v. 6. http://www.stevenmaslach.com/home.htm (home page) http://www.stevenmaslach.com/css/styles.css (css file location) Thanks, spellmank ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Check boxes ticked (UK Law)
Just out of curiosity, what about Tick this box if you don't want to receive massive amounts of spam? Is it really anti-checked box, or anti-default-opt-in? Seems pretty... open to abuse and/or re-interpretation, unless it's the latter. On 1/31/06, Philippe Wittenbergh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 31 Jan 2006, at 12:33 am, Paul Collins wrote: I recall reading somewhere a while back that UK law states you can't have a check box ticked on a form EG - untick this box if you don't want to receive emails would be illegal for a UK site. That would be European Community law, not only UK law. And yes, I believe this to be correct. You have to make this 'opt- in', default being 'opt-out'. Philippe ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
Mmm, just had a look in latest Opera 9 beta and concluded that it's most definitely beta software for a reason ;-) On another page, overflow:auto doesn't work because there are floating form elements, which the engine doesn't seem to want to let layout push down (because, obviously, things are floated) in order to trigger the scroll thingy. That's a technical term... On 1/30/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Many thanks. I'd only tested Opera in 8.5x (because, IMO, it's reasonable to assume if people are using Opera they're probably going to be people who bother upgrading their software!), so I'll be sure to take a look :-) On 1/30/06, Justin Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/30/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still keen to hear anyone's suggestions as to the Firefox 1.0.x render problem... :) Josh Hi Josh, While on the topic of rendering bugs I just thought I would mention that in Opera 9 beta there is some funky stuff happening with the scrolling div on the deals page (http://sunrisefamily.com.au/current/content/deals/). It's quite probable that this is just an Opera rendering bug (version 9 is beta after all) but if you're interested you could check it out . cheers, Justin. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The dilemma: tabular data with sublevels
On 1/29/06, Rene Saarsoo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is one usability problem still: the contents of th elements are centered by default in most browsers, making the table look like this: 1 Fruits Add Edit Delete 1.1 Apple Add Edit Delete 1.1.1 Red apple Add Edit Delete 1.1.2 Green apple Add Edit Delete 1.1.2.1 Extra green apple Add Edit Delete 1.1.2.2 Medium green apple Add Edit Delete 1.2 Orange Add Edit Delete 1.3 Lemon Add Edit Delete Not very comprehensible... The solution would be to use td instead: 1 Fruits Add Edit Delete 1.1 Apple Add Edit Delete 1.1.1 Red appleAdd Edit Delete 1.1.2 Green apple Add Edit Delete 1.1.2.1 Extra green apple Add Edit Delete 1.1.2.2 Medium green apple Add Edit Delete 1.2 Orange Add Edit Delete 1.3 Lemon Add Edit Delete Maybe it makes the table a bit harder to understand for screenreader users, but it surely adds clarity to all the other users. That's what we have stylesheets for. It's trivial to change the text alignment of TH elements :-) TH strikes me as being semantically more sound, particularly if you give them ID's and set the headers attribute in your corresponding TD cells accordingly. Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
Hi all, Launched a website [ http://yahoo7.com.au/sunrise/family/ ] this morning, and am pretty keen to hear feedback about it from a web standards perspective. There are a handful of problems that I know about, but don't really have a clue how to fix. I made a lengthy-ish blog post about it, at http://joahua.com/blog/2006/01/30/sunrise-family-website outlining... pretty much everything worth mentioning about the site, but the BIGGEST problem (so far as I'm concerned) is with Firefox 1.0.x on the Meet the Family page [ http://sunrisefamily.com.au/current/content/meet/ ] -- often, on first load, the images (which are backgrounds with sprite :hover rollovers) under the Sunrise Team heading will fail to display -- with the exception of the top two (I should remember their names by now, whatever :P) Refreshing fixes this problem... known Firefox bug? Or, more importantly, is there a known FIX for a Firefox bug of this nature? Any other feedback is also welcomed, but especially on that point :-) Regards, Joshua Street ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sitecheck: 7 Sunrise Family website [sunrisefamily.com.au]
Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the URI structure either. It's running on a Zeus web server, which has some weird-ass mod_rewrite equivalent, but I'm not comfortable enough with it to use it. As for why 301 redirects, I explicitly asked for that after carefully explaining that it couldn't EVER be moved from where the 301 pointed. Prior to launch we were using 302 redirects, which (mainly for search engine reasons... though I'll admit I only ever think about Google, not Yahoo ;-)) I wasn't happy with. Hence, 301 redirects are the lesser of two evils, and I'm assured it's not going to move! On 1/30/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joshua Street wrote: http://sunrisefamily.com.au/current/content/ The site looks good, it's a huge improvement over all the other 7 network web sites. However, one issue I have with it is why when I go to: http://sunrisefamily.com.au/ I get a 301 Moved Permanently pointing to: http://sunrisefamily.com.au/current/content/ Firstly, good URI design is important and redirects like this are annoying (although, at least it hasn't been done with a meta refresh or javascript). Why not just serve the site from the root directory? Secondly, 301 Moved Permanently might not be the best status code to send because if they decide to change their mind in the future about their URIs (like removing the redundant /current/content/) then it could cause all sorts of problems with caches that respect the HTTP protocol. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The dilemma: tabular data with sublevels
Select with Optgroups? Tables with (assuming two levels), a structure like this: tr th id=fruit colspan=2Fruit/thtdAdd/td tdEdit/td tdDelete/td /tr tr td/tdth headers=fruitApple/thtdAdd/td tdEdit/td tdDelete/td /tr etc? The other thing (this list is definitely the wrong place for me to say this) is if this is for a content management system or the like, where the client's browsing capabilities are a well known quantity, perhaps it would make sense just to cater for that in whatever way works best for them, and not worry too much about broader Accessibility. For example, it's unlikely a client would be using Lynx to update their website. If the audience is known here, usability should (IMO) win over absolutely universal accessibility -- only for back-end systems, though. Josh On 1/29/06, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt Sent: Sunday, 29 January 2006 10:16 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] The dilemma: tabular data with sublevels Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: Bert Doorn wrote: [ select category ] [ add ] [ edit ] [ delete ] You can have option groups in the select. Example: form action=whatever select name=product option value=Select Product/option optgroup label=Fruits optionApple/option optionOrange/option optionLemon/option /optgroup ... /form The problem is that we are not only allowing to add/edit/delete one level of the hierarchy, but all of them. Imagine it more to be like this: [Add] [Edit] [Delete] Folder 1 [Add] [Edit] [Delete]SubFolder 1 [Add] [Edit] [Delete]SubFolder 2 [Add] [Edit] [Delete]SubSubFolder 1 [Add] [Edit] [Delete]SubSubFolder 2 [Add] [Edit] [Delete]SubFolder 3 [Add] [Edit] [Delete] Folder 2 Although it's currently impossible with a normal select list, you can instead use radio buttons or checkboxes within nested lists. ol lilabelinput type=radio Fruits/label ol lilabelinput type=radio Appleslabel lilabelinput type=radio Orangeslabel lilabelinput type=radio Lemonlabel /li li.../li /ol Just fill that out with all the necessary attributes and values, then add some submit buttons for add, edit and delete. I have considered this possibility, but to be honest I find it not as user-friendly as the other solution. In particular if the list of items is very long, users will have to tick the radio button and then scroll to the end of the page (or the beginning) to find the button. So I am facing the question: make it user-friendly for the larger audience or make it user-friendly for users of browsers that cannot display style sheets. I am tending towards the first. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The dilemma: tabular data with sublevels
Heh, as I said, wrong place to say this. I meant if the app were being developed for a specific client with specific (known) requirements/user environment. Obviously there's the hypothetical what if they hire someone who uses these technologies in the future who ends up needing to use the CMS, but that may not be a concern depending on the business and anticipated life cycle of the product. I did most emphatically NOT suggest this as a blanket approach, and never would. It was practical advice that may or may not have been useful depending on circumstances best evaluated by Andreas, nothing more. On 1/29/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joshua Street wrote: The other thing (this list is definitely the wrong place for me to say this) is if this is for a content management system or the like, where the client's browsing capabilities are a well known quantity, What? How can you possibly assume that any user of a CMS will not have accessibility requirements? Is there some restriction on the web that I don't know about in which users of Lynx, JAWS or other assistive technology can't publish on the web, and therefore have no use for a CMS? -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] mailto: and email-subjects
I've never read about setting the subject with title (unless you're using JavaScript to do magic to the href?), but imagine it doesn't much matter. I've NEVER encountered a mail client that choked if you fed it a subject as well... even if not all parse that into the Subject field. Hence, from an accessibility perspective, it doesn't really matter. From a web-standards perspective, I wasn't aware that anything much in particular was prescribed for how to use the HREF attribute... but, having not checked, could be completely and utterly wrong :-) Pragmatism should win where accessiblity/usability don't need to be sacrificed, irrespective of web standards. /twocents On 1/28/06, Dylan Kinnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello web standards group, and my apologies if you've alredy addressed this issue, but I have a question regarding the mailto: part of an html link. I'm working on a website whose contact us page has its email links set to include a subject link, like this: a href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Support Question this website is supposed to be written in html 4.0, but I can find nothing in the 4.0 specifications about this subject function. I read somewhere that giving the link a title=subject of email is the way to do this in html 4.0. I was wondering which to use? thanks. Dylan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The dilemma: tabular data with sublevels
Hmm I'd strongly contest a definition list. Maybe nested UL's would be better... but Item 1 cannot be sensibly/reasonably _defined_ as Add, or Edit, or Delete. On 1/27/06, Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andreas, I could argue either list or table, but I'd be inclined to make it a list. I see the three editing functions being part of each list item: ul li dl dtItem 1/dt dda href=?add=123Add/a/dd dda href=?edit=123Edit/a/dd dda href=?delete=123Delete/a/dd /dl /li ... /ul This might seem taggy, but doesn't take a whole lot more markup than a table would. Nesting the ULs will also maintain the semantic structure of the complex list. Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE, selecting text, and lots of absolutely positioned elements
Kay, that's excellent! Many thanks!
Josh
On 1/23/06, Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Josh,
There's a big bug, that's for sure. There *is* a javascript fix, but
it has some small side effects itself (a page flicker when the page
first loads in IE browsers with their cache set to check every time).
The original site I found the fix on is no longer there, but I
deployed it on this site: http://www.primarysales.com.au/
The code is:
// fix absolute positioning text selection problem with IE6
if (window.createPopup document.compatMode
document.compatMode==CSS1Compat){
document.onreadystatechange = onresize = function fixIE6AbsPos(){
if (!document.body) return;
if (document.body.style.margin != 0px) document.body.style.margin = 0;
onresize = null;
document.body.style.height = 0;
setTimeout(function(){ document.body.style.height =
document.documentElement.scrollHeight+'px'; }, 1);
setTimeout(function(){ onresize = fixIE6AbsPos; }, 100);
}
}
HTH,
Kay.
--
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.zombiecoder.com/
On 1/23/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At least, I'm fairly certain the absolutely positioned elements are
causing the problem(s).
I can't give an example page (NDA, and it's too complex to bother
recreating -- the complexity is probably part of the reason it's so
bad when text is selected/copied), just wondering if anyone else has
created sites in which absolute positioning is used extensively -- to
the (unintentional) detriment of text selection capabilities, and,
most importantly, if there are any known solutions to this problem.
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] IE6 and color display behavior
Yep, that'd be the PNG files. Something to do with saving Gamma. My usual workaround is to open + re-save using the GIMP... it works though I'm still not quite sure why! Josh On 1/24/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guys and Gals, Here's a neat one for you. If you look at this URL in a couple different browsers, you'll notice that IE is making the background color different than the others (in my case Firefox and Opera). Anyone know why this is and a possible fix? http://sitesbyjoe.com/tutorials/mcdowell/default08.htm Thanks, -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE, selecting text, and lots of absolutely positioned elements
At least, I'm fairly certain the absolutely positioned elements are causing the problem(s). I can't give an example page (NDA, and it's too complex to bother recreating -- the complexity is probably part of the reason it's so bad when text is selected/copied), just wondering if anyone else has created sites in which absolute positioning is used extensively -- to the (unintentional) detriment of text selection capabilities, and, most importantly, if there are any known solutions to this problem. Kind regards, Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] addEventListener
On 1/19/06, Richard Stephenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Use the onclick event;
a.onclick = function() {
alert('not going there!');return false;
}
Its not an issue of standards it's in the javascript not the html.
Richard
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
# Implementing Web Standards - eg: technologies such as HTML, XHTML,
CSS, DOM, UAAG, RDF, XML, JavaScript and EcmaScript
# Discussing best practice in these technologies
It is an issue of standards, actually. And best practice in terms
of using unobtrusive JS + event listeners.
Josh
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Glossary
Definition list. It's a list of definitions ;-) On 1/20/06, Pat Boens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, What would be the best way to create a glossary: a table ? a definition list? something else? Thanks for your expert input. Pat -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] The Evils of innerHTML
Is it? I'm using AHAH (H = HTML, as opposed to XML) to dynamically retrieve some content and innerHTML seems infinitely more sensible: the content being pulled in has an indeterminate number of paragraphs, so short of parsing the incoming document for paragraphs, recreating elements, and setting the text nodes to the contents of the paragraph elements in the first place, using DOM JavaScript seems... not particularly sensible, from a client-side performance perspective (nor from a JS code complexity perspective). innerHTML doesn't work with XHTML, etc,. I know... and it's not a DOM method... but do people consider it okay to use when it seems otherwise impractical to use standard methods? Regards, Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The Evils of innerHTML
On 1/19/06, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When would it be impractical to use standards methods? In this case, where I already have server-built markup that I'm perfectly happy with and would have to traverse + rebuild that with DOM methods. It's (seemingly, to someone with not a great deal of JS experience -- me) somewhat redundant, surely. And yup, I'll be serving this one as HTML :) Thanks, Josh Joshua Street said: do people consider it okay to use Supposedly faster than DOM methods, and usually requires less code. Personally, I don't see it as a problem for HTML documents, just need to be mindful that it will break as we move forward towards XHTML. otherwise impractical to use standard methods? kind regards Terrence WOod. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ufo flash adding padding/
Good to hear you solved it, but one other thing. I observed in Firefox 1.0.x/Linux that the borders on your left navigation items appear/disappear at certain zoom settings. This might be something to do with the Flash items on the lower right, because they flickered around where the nav items were before positioning themselves properly: However, upon sizing up/down, the problem resolved itself. Almost certainly Firefox, not you, but thought I'd say something anyway... Josh On 1/18/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello all, Im using the ufo flash embed method.Something is adding about 30px of padding or height to the top of my swf. If i resize the dimensions in the html it takes from the top and bottom of the movie so that some of the swf is cut off at the bottom. heres the page 209.200.102.116 any suggestion would be apreciated. thanks knvmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Print stylesheet switcher
Hi all, I've got a page that has a print stylesheet, and two elements of important (i.e. the things you'd want to print) content. One is a list of items, whilst the other element is a kind of More information area (linked by XMLHttpRequest if JS is enabled). In the More information bit, there's meant to be a print details button. It was originally going to exist in an iframe, but I wasn't too keen on that idea because it's generally disruptive in ways that AJAX (or, in lieu of that, plain HTML with effectively-utilised anchors) is not. So now I'm trying to print just the contents of that DIV when a user clicks the print icon (using print(), or window.print(), or whatever), but if the user attempts to print the page normally -- that is, go File-Print -- the listing would print, and the details of the currently selected item would not. To achieve this I plan on using two stylesheets: the default print stylesheet will discard the More Information div, whilst the More Information div's print button will call (hopefully) a JavaScript function that will set the print style to one in which the only item displayed is that DIV (well, and a few other bits like H1, but it doesn't matter: the point is it's another stylesheet), and THEN print(). Normal JavaScript (media=screen) switchers are pretty common, but does anyone have suggestions as to how best to go about this one? n.b. I can't just switch the stylesheet when the More Information field is loaded, because even when it is people may still want to print the standard listing, which remains visible at all times. The switching MUST apply just to the print styles, and MUST occur only when the print 'button' is clicked (the button will be inserted into the markup dynamically, so it remains clean for non-JS users). Kind regards, Josh Street ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] content type etc
Ah... nearly. meta element content-type declarations ARE used, just not when the page viewed is coming from a non-local filesystem/HTTP. So it's necessary in the sense that it enables people to save your page and for that page to be 'usable' in a more general sense (though browsers have a tendency to inject crap into saved pages: there's only so much you can do!) On 1/16/06, Rimantas Liubertas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gee Rimantas, Such enlightenment! Oh, well, OK. According to [1] XHTML1.1 should not be sent with MIME type of text/html. Some may argue that should not is not the same as must not and need to serve IE justifies the use of text/html MIME type for XHTML1.1, but I belong to XHTML as text/html is meaningless camp. In case of application/xhtml+xml MIME type meta element makes no sense at all, because it is not used for anything - neither for mime type (which is never used for, be it html or xhtml), nor for character encoding information [2]. HTTP headers and XML declaration are used for this purpose. As for omitting mime type from meta element and leaving only charset info... This might work only in text/html context, in which such omission makes no sense. On the other hand charset info is optional in Content-type HTTP header, not the content type part itself ;) And you were right that was Lachlan who wrote about Content-type headers and meta element, see [3]. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/ [2] http://www.mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html#xhtmldiff [2] http://lachy.id.au/log/2006/01/content-type Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Icon
favicon.ico in your website root. It's not actually anything to do with CSS... though you CAN set it in your head element with link rel=shortcut icon href=favicon.ico type=image/x-icon / On 1/16/06, Alvaro Mouriño [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi List, I was just wondering if it is possible to set an icon for my site with CSS (the one next to the title) Either way, how do I do it? Thanks, AlvAro ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] pdf graphics
We're waaay OT now, but I can't resist just posting this last message for those thinking about Photoshop-GIMP migration. GIMPshop! is a re-working of The GIMP's interface to make it more Photoshop-like. I haven't used it myself, because I recently went (was coerced into going) the other way (i.e. GIMP-Photoshop), but I imagine it could be worth a look if you're in the opposite boat. http://plasticbugs.com/?page_id=294 Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] pdf graphics
Well, if Photoshop won't open them, the GIMP certainly can. Then it's just cutting it apart like you would had you received any other flat file, I suppose! Of course, if you need backgrounds then a kindly worded email to the client requesting the source file with layers, etc., would probably be the best move. I've had designers send me flat files all the time, because they think that web design is just a matter of duplicating what they've created, like we were printers or something ;-). More often than not it's a misconception stemming from exposure to 'professional' graphics applications' web export/splice tools. Josh On 1/13/06, Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I was pleased recently to get a rather large project. It was also nice that they were sending the graphics for the site design. Today I got them, in pdf format! Now, perhaps I live on another planet, or a rank amature, but in the last ten years online I have known no-one who uses pdf for graphics. I have no clue what to do with them, especially after client stating the time he put into making them. I wish all pdf files would get lost, feel they have no place on the web. I really hope that standards aren't moving in this direction!!! What do you do in a situation like this? I need them for the design, menu items and backgrounds... Bruce Prochnau BKDesign ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Tabluar forms WAS: Re: [WSG] br the correct use.
On 1/14/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tables for forms is ok in some cases, forms can be considered tabular. This one has always confused me. There is a linear relationship between a field's label and the field proper, yes, but how does one mark that up as a table? SHOULD that be marked up as a table? I consider, in that case, label [for=] to be mostly adequate, but there are situations where it is not (for example, where is the semantic sense in associating one label with two fields, as is the case wherever input type=radio is used). Recently, I've used a definition list (as this defines a relationship between two items better than most other element combinations could), but it feels hackish and is horrendously difficult to style consistently. Because I was trying to style it to appear as a table would. If I were to style it as a table, then I'd consider the key to be th, and the value to be td... but of course, this doesn't work terribly well. Has anyone created (or does anyone know of) a resource that explains the relationship between/best practices for forms/tables? Regards, Josh Street ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Tabluar forms WAS: Re: [WSG] br the correct use.
Yep, the fieldset is an appropriate way of grouping, but doesn't (so far as I'm aware) allow for the kind of visual styling that is required (by designers who don't think in terms of markup) for some forms. Excuse the following ASCII art: | Please select | | | yes or no from | X Yes | | the adjacent | X No | | radio buttons | | That's obviously different from label for=nameName: input type=text id=name //label, which could be styled as | Name: [INPUT]| without too much difficulty. If you're following the ASCII (try pasting into Notepad if you have a webmail client that doesn't like fixed-width text!), the text is aligning but floating off to the side: fairly easy with a label, as it may contain the input field, but harder with notoriously-difficult-to-style fieldset elements containing multiple options -- because, as you rightly say, it is not only impossible, but also illogical for a label element to contain two input fields --, as with the radio buttons example. Tables simplify the whole procedure remarkably, I'm just wary of using a table anywhere that it's impossible to use thead, which seems a fair benchmark of what is most definitely a table. Maybe not... your example's use of the scope attribute makes it all seem remarkably sensible! Thanks, Josh On 1/14/06, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joshua Street wrote: This one has always confused me. There is a linear relationship between a field's label and the field proper, yes, but how does one mark that up as a table? I believe Lachlan was referring to a construct like tr th scope=rowlabel for=nameName/label/th tdinput type=text name=name id=name //td /tr SHOULD that be marked up as a table? That's one of those debatable subjects...mostly comes down to your particular interpretation of the structural/semantic nature of tables and forms. For my own part, I sit on the fence on this one... I consider, in that case, label [for=] to be mostly adequate, but there are situations where it is not (for example, where is the semantic sense in associating one label with two fields, as is the case wherever input type=radio is used). You've lost me there. Do you mean in general, or when using a table to lay out a form? In general, the correct markup would be along the lines of: fieldset legendWhat's your favourite colour?/legend input type=radio name=colour id=colour_black value=black / label for=colour_blackblack/label input type=radio name=colour id=colour_white value=white / label for=colour_whitewhite/label /fieldset or variations where you can, for instance, wrap the input inside the label itself...but, for belt and braces, also keep the label's for attribute and the input's id in there: label for=colour_blackinput type=radio name=colour id=colour_black value=black / black/label A label can't be associated with more than one form control (though a form control may be targetted by separate, discrete label elements, all with the same for attribute pointing at the form control's id). -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Re; Re: [WSG] br the correct use.
Nope. Only, I'd add that there are existing apps out there that will fall into various server-side languages to do intelligent replacement of linebreaks - paragraphs, smart quotes, etc. KSES, used by WordPress (or at least it used to be) is one such for the PHP langauge ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/kses ) -- and I'm sure there are others. I don't think we should excuse server-side pages in that respect altogether, but generally agree with your sentiment. Josh On 1/14/06, Peter Firminger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The much maligned br element is essential in our work. Sometimes we're not just doing poetry and addresses. Take for example the archive page of this very message (the one I'm replying to). http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm?uid=C69ACE78-BB9A-910B-E6CC1A4A59BDF099 How else would I accurately display Lachlan's example below without br. I don't agree that pre/pre is the answer because this may well force the page into breaking due to width. Pre is pretty powerful and can break a layout very quickly if something unexpected is forced into it. _ The common usage to separate paragraphs like this is wrong: div paragraph 1br br paragraph 2br br paragraph 3 /div In most cases, if you ever get the feeling to use 2 consecutive brs, _ (here it is in case you don't want to look at the archive) _ The common usage to separate paragraphs like this is wrong:br / br / lt;divgt;br / paragraph 1lt;brgt;br / lt;brgt;br / paragraph 2lt;brgt;br / lt;brgt;br / paragraph 3br / lt;/divgt;br / br / In most cases, if you ever get the feeling to use 2 consecutive lt;brgt;s, br / _ I could replace br /br / with /pp (and I usually do... There was a reason I didn't in this case but I can't recall now) Remember, we are not marking this up by hand, we have to make sure it always works no matter what is thrown into it as content. I get the feeling that a lot of the time people focus too much on what is hand coded in static HTML pages (and therefore very predictable) when making assumptions like br is bad and even including hr as bad. Broaden your view to what may be churned out of a CMS or other server-based system (a web-mail interface etc.) A line break is semantic in my view. In the case of the aformentioned page, I believe it is very much like the poetry example. I'm expected to display the email the same as it was written (within the limitations of the page boundaries). In this context, any arguments? P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Active Links
The :active pseudo-class is used on the, well, current active element.
In any browser other than IE this doesn't even need to be an anchor:
you could (probably, haven't tested just now) use it on a form element
so that the background changed colour when you were entering
information into an input element (child of the form element, hence
form is still active).
So that's what :active does.
The class=currentlink solution is probably best... another way to do
it would be to apply a class to body depending on what the current
page was, and use an ID on each of your nav items with the rule
body.documentclass #individualnavitemclass {
font-weight:bold;
}
Personally, I'd prefer to just have the class in the list item itself
(the other seems like overkill, though possibly easier if you're doing
static sites with lots of page-specific styles).
There's probably a way you could parse the href values of each list
item and set the style using JavaScript accordingly, but that's beyond
me at least...
Regards,
Josh
On 1/13/06, Helmut Granda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello,
I am trying to show on a left menu what page is currently active with CSS.
So far the only way I know how to do it is by hand-coding it
a href=link.html class=currentlinklink.html/a
What I was thinking about doing was to set up the a:Active class to like
bold or something, now the only time when the text shows bold is when I
press on it.
Is there a way to set up the CSS globally with a:Active or similar so I
don't have to hand-code each link in my menu?
Thanks!
-H
--
Joshua Street
http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Safari Lightening Entire Background Image
Tried on another computer? Could be different monitor/colour profiles on Mac vs. PC. If, on the Mac, you go to System Preferences Displays Color Calibrate... you can set the colour to resemble that of a PC more closely. If you open it up in FF/Mac or IE/Mac and the problem IS colour profiles, it'll probably look the same as it does in Safari. If not, there's something else at play. Alternatively, if it were a PNG, maybe it's just that Photoshop sucks at saving those files. I've had problems with exporting PNGs that have crap colour (ONLY IN IE, for whatever reason) until I open/resaved with The GIMP (gaining a few bytes in the process, but making it work properly!). Could just be me/ineptitude at Photoshop (new job, have been thrown from GIMP-only world into Photoshop, and it hurts!), but possibly not. On 1/13/06, Mani Sheriar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey all, I'm having a slightly maddening problem that appears to be only in Safari. The test page is here: http://www.manisheriar.com/sparkplug/paywi/ On Firefox and IE all seems good, but in Safari the grays of the main background image are too light and therefore clashing with other images where it is supposed to blend. See screenshot here: http://www.manisheriar.com/sparkplug/paywi/_images/paywi.png All these images were sliced from the same flattened psd. At first I thought it might be some weird problem with jpg vs. gif but I resaved everything to be jpg and the issue is still there. Nor is it background vs. foreground ... the lock image is foreground but the nav buttons are background. Arrrggghhh!!! Anyone have any thoughts? THANK YOU in advance!!! Mani Sheriar Founder, Sheriar Designs www.ManiSheriar.com | 925.914.0741 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Check - ShetlandCoffee.com
Love the design, but just one thing about the background. The dotted line fluctuates at the edge of each repetition, because there are dots right on the edges. I don't know if you can add/subtract a pixel in on one side of the graphic easily, or whether this'll interfere with the other repeating patterns below... I don't even know if it is entirely unintentional! Just thought I'd point it out incase it was an oversight :) Josh On 1/12/06, David Nicol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thomas, Collin, Thanks for your feedback. I'll re-visit the header part again and will hopefully get it to look right in all browsers. cheers David http://www.nbcommunication.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic image gallery software
On 1/9/06, Al Kendall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Josh, Is it possible to leave the thumbnails with the main pic instead of having to go back the the thumbnails each time? Cheers Al Sure thing, there's a fairly simple templating system that lets you do just that if you so desire. On 1/9/06, Rowan - RMW Web Publishing [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With regards to the demo; it would be nice to provide a few more hooks (id's) in the HTML so that it makes things easier to style with CSS alone. On a similar note, the templating thingamajig means you can insert extra classes or IDs as required. The demo/default template is built to be lean, and your point about absolute URIs is well received. (We could cheat on the demo and just make it leaner that way, but... well... you know). Hopefully that'll get into an update sometime soonish. RE: H1 breadcrumb semantics, that struck me as being better than having no headings at all. It's clearly a headER, if not a headING... but I tend towards thinking it describes the upper-most level of content on the page adequately. Point taken, though. One of the difficulties in making default templates for something like this is it's almost certain users (i.e. developers, not end-users) have their own ideas about what the markup surrounding the gallery should be like... so I consider the default template to be adequately generic that people can see how it works in a vague sense and then change it as they wish. I'm interested to hear other peoples' opinions (on the breadcrumb issue especially), but feature (i.e. non-markup)-specific comments would be better sent offlist. Regards, Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Semantic image gallery software
Hi all, An open-source (GPL, PHP-based) project I'm involved in, cat-scan ( http://cat-scan.net/ ) reached version 1.0 last week, which is essentially a(nother) gallery application, the defining differences being that it uses flat files for everything (so no databases required), and delivers semantic markup right out of the box. It also builds friendly URIs and a bunch of other cool stuff, like Atom and RSS feeds. I'd be interested to hear people's comments on it from a web-standards perspective (and possibly from other perspectives too, off-list). LINKS - Website: http://cat-scan.net/ Features list: http://cat-scan.net/features.html Blog: http://blog.cat-scan.net/ Demo: http://demo.cat-scan.net/ Kind regards, Joshua Street http://joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS help with bullet removal in IE view
list-style:none; on the UL should work well... failing that, try playing with padding: on the list. On 1/8/06, Artemis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My partner and I have a tagboard on our site and it looks greate in FF, but when you view in IE there are round bullets. Can someone help me get rid of the bullets? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ordered lists inside data tables
http://www.usability.com.au/resources/tables.cfm is a great resource. I find particularly interesting http://www.usability.com.au/resources/tables.cfm#very , as it demonstrates that accessible tables needn't be meagre and can, in fact, contain quite a lot of structured information. It sounds as though you're trying to structure multiple levels of information (multiple fees for each item?), and even that isn't beyond what we can/should use tables for. Tables don't kill people, people kill people... Or something. :P (Heck, tables don't even help!) Josh On 1/4/06, Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 04/01/2006, at 6:29 PM, Vicki Berry wrote: With a bit of fiddling I can put a whole list in one table row and get the prices to align (might work as long as everyone views in the same sized browser window so there is no wrapping! Ha!) but then I lose the association between each item and its fee - or don't I? Is there another way to do this (using ids perhaps?) where I can achieve what I need to do? I can't simply put each item and price in its own table row, because then I can't keep the list. Can you show us an example of what you have so far? It does sound like it should be a table, IMHO. Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox 1.0.x rogue PNG background line
This isn't just a line, it's the background showing through. Plus I'm seeing it on at least three computers with Firefox release 1.0.x versions... so it's not JUST beta software. Could just be corruption, but it's such an odd outcome I had to ask if anyone had seen it before. On 1/4/06, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joshua Street wrote: This is a seriously odd problem, resulting from Photoshop's PNG output/Firefox 1,0.x's PNG decoder (I think). Test case at http://joahua.com/blog/2006/01/04/photoshopfirefox-10x-and-the-case-of-the-mystery-line Anyone seen this before? I used to see a weird line at the very bottom of my PNGs when running pre-release beta versions of FF. Seems to have been solved in 1.5 though. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Firefox 1.0.x rogue PNG background line
This is a seriously odd problem, resulting from Photoshop's PNG output/Firefox 1,0.x's PNG decoder (I think). Test case at http://joahua.com/blog/2006/01/04/photoshopfirefox-10x-and-the-case-of-the-mystery-line Anyone seen this before? Note that the size of both images is 210px: in the Photoshop version, Firefox simply renders the background over the last horizontal line of the image. A very baffled Josh ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Multiple Firefox versions
Hi all, I was wondering if anyone knows how to install multiple versions of Firefox on one machine? I'm finding some things render rather differently on 1.5, and it's not enough to test just on that: from the stats I watch, Firefox visitors are pretty evenly split between 1.0.x and 1.5 at the minute (though generally they're faster to adopt newer versions). Apologies for a slightly application/not-web-standards related question... all in the name of testing ;-) Regards, Josh -- Joshua Street http://joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Multiple Firefox versions
Ah, yes, that's what I was trying to do. If I just install both I end up getting plugins overlapping between installs, and can't run both at once (I think because of the way it calls new windows?) Thanks! Josh On 1/3/06, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Roberto Gorjão wrote: To me it was enough to install different versions in different folders. They work without problems or incompatibilities. In addition to that I would strongly recommend to set up separate profiles for each version, as otherwise you *will* end up with incompatibilities and general problems (this also holds true if you want to set up a mixed environment of various Mozilla Suite and Netscape browser versions). My usual setup: create a new folder for Browser profiles somewhere, then do a fresh install of all the various browser versions. Once installation is complete, *do not* start the browser by clicking on the icon (or by having the option to load it ticked at the end of the installer). Instead, open a command line, cd to the installation directory, and start it with the profile manager option, e.g. c:\program files\mozilla firefox 1.5\firefox -profilemanager Now, set up a new profile for each browser, and make sure that it's saved as a new sub-directory of your Browser profiles folder. I usually tend to name them after their relevant browser version. Also, make sure to check the option in the manager to show it at startup, otherwise there is a risk that your latest profile is used, regardless of which browser you're starting. Hope this made some sense, P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
