RE: [WSG] Table borders
Have you tried making the border colour (for just that one cell) to be white, or transparent, or whatever matches the background? Regards, Michael From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Grant Bailey Sent: 30 September 2011 10:01 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Table borders Hello, I'd be grateful for some help on this problem. I need to display a table. No problem except that it is one of those tables that have header columns on the left and right, which means that the top left-hand cell should not appear (i.e. have no border). Like this (please see attachment if the picture does not appear below): [cid:image001.jpg@01CC7F5F.EF854110] Here is my coding: table class=Table_Text width=92.2% border=1 align=center cellspacing=0 tr style=font-weight: bold; td style=border:none;br //td td style=text-align: center; Column 1 Title/td td style=text-align: center; Column 2 Title/td/tr tr td style=font-weight: bold; Row 1 Title/td tdCol 1 Row 1/td tdCol 2 Row 1/td/tr tr td style=font-weight: bold; Row 2 Title/td tdCol 1 Row 2/td tdCol 2 Row 2/td/tr /table Unfortunately, all of the major browsers show the top-left cell with a border (a bit fainter, but you can still see it), despite my efforts (shown in code above) to render it invisible. If someone could advise me how to make the cell truly invisible I would be most grateful. Thank you and kind regards, Grant Bailey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** inline: image001.jpg
RE: [WSG] A simple IE and JS detection method?
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: 30 October 2010 20:30 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] A simple IE and JS detection method? snip On the second pahe I've checked (http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm2/index.htm), I found these: !--[if IE 7] link href=/06_includes/ie7.css rel=stylesheet type=text/css ![endif]-- !--[if IE 6] link href=/06_includes/ie6.css rel=stylesheet type=text/css ![endif]-- !--[if IE 5] link href=/06_includes/ie5.css rel=stylesheet type=text/css ![endif]-- These are three extra HTTP requests. Just so everyone is clear, this is only _one_ extra request, and only for that particular version of IE; No other browser will request any of these, nor will IE8, IE9 or future versions. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Consultant This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] ems versus pixels
The basic plan that I follow is to use % for structural items, which generally need to be proportional to other structural items, and ultimately the viewport itself. Then, pixels purely for borders and images, And EMs only for text. Margins and padding can be either pixels, EMs or % depending on the particular situation, ie whether you are using them as structural pieces, for text-indent, or for decoration. My argument for this is that if a box has width:50% or 98% or something like that, it is immediately obvious when reading the CSS how big it should end up; not nearly so obvious with width:43em At the other end of the scale, if you want a fine line, then what you really want is 1px, or 2px for medium etc, not 0.05em or 0.004%, particularly since the latter are more likely to be subject to rounding errors. With text itself, it should then be obvious that EMs are the most appropriate - % may work in a very similar way, but there is plenty of scope for confusion with percentages used for structural elements. As for page-zoom, everyone that I have ever heard comment on it, prefers text-zoom, myself included. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Yes/No structure?
There is actually a fourth option, which is a pair of buttons, which is a good idea if both choices require an action, such as feeding on to a different form, or if this is the last action of the form. For me, the main thing to think about is 'negative responses' - with a radio button you get one answer by default, which may not be the correct response - if people don't understand a question they will often ignore it, (a negative response) so in your case you should either go with one of the free-choice options (ie not a radio button) or else make sure that you word it in such a way that people need to change the default if they understand that they do _not_ want an interpreter. If that wasn't clear, think about the difference between an opt-out tick-box, and an opt-in tick-box - on paper they are interchangeable, but legally speaking they are not. Regards, Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of nedlud Sent: 04 June 2010 03:30 To: wsg Subject: [WSG] Yes/No structure? I have a web form I'm building and there is a simple yes/no question in it. I got to wondering what the best semantic mark up for this is? Does anyone have any good UI/UX suggestions? My three ideas were... Two radio buttons for yes and no... pDo you...?/p label for=ans-yesYes/labelinput type=radio name=ans id=ans-yes label for=ans-noNo/labelinput type=radio name=ans id=ans-no A single check box. A tick implies a yes answer while no tick implies no... pDo you...?/p input type=checkbox name=ans id=ans Or a selection list with a yes and a no answer... pDo you...?/p select name=ans id=ans option value=yesYes/option option value=noNo/option /select Which is the preferred way? Or can you suggest a better way? Lucien. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] JQuery Scripts not loading in IE7?
When I look at your homepage in IE7, the first image in the sequence loads correctly, but then the slideshow continues with images that are less than an inch wide, at the top left of their container. Was this what you meant about it being broken; I noticed a second email that implied the whole thing was fixed? Regards, Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Anderson Sent: 04 December 2009 04:25 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] JQuery Scripts not loading in IE7? G'day everyone I have an issue where the jquery slideshow does not seem to be loading iin IE7? works ok in Firefox etc but the images just get displayed in IE7 but not in the slideshow. It's like IE7 can't find the jquery scripts? url is http://glassoptions.danielandersondesign.com/ The slideshow is on the homepage. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Philippe Wittenbergh Sent: 01 November 2009 23:05 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] [OT] Google search/index/webmaster help Because that file is being served as 'text/html' instead of 'text/xml' as it should. That is server misconfiguration. I agree that this is technically incorrect, but hardly unusual. I'm not surprised Googlebot doesn't pick it up. I would be absolutely flabbergasted if Google ignored it purely because of that. Google has a strong history of being pragmatic; they _want_ to use this file; why would you expect them to ignore a file with the right name, the right kind of content, in the right place? As an aside, how many robots.txt do you think get served up as text/html ? Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Converting CSS / Design into Pre-Set HTML widget code
Not sure that I understand the question, but none of the CSS that you
show here applies to the code snippet that you included: they have no
classes in common.
Regards,
Mike
Mike Brockington
Web Development Specialist
www.calcResult.com
www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
www.edinburgh.gov.uk
This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
author alone.
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Kristine Cummins
Sent: 12 October 2009 05:26
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Converting CSS / Design into Pre-Set HTML widget code
I am unsuccessfully able to convert my CSS/design into pre-set HTML
widget code (see widget code below).
Current List design (see Events on right):
http://www.elizabethspencerwines.com/development/v9/index.shtml
div id=sidebar
ul
li id=events-calendar class=widget EC_Widget_display
h2 class=widgettitleEvents Calendar/h2
ul
li id=no-events-in-liststrongtext goes here/strong/li
/ul
/li
/ul
/div!-- end sidebar --
=
My original CSS to make my un-widgetized design work:
.iconlist {
background-color: inherit;
color: #000;
font: normal .7em/1.2em Trebuchet MS, verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;
list-style: none;
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}
li.bullet {
background: url(images/bullet.gif) no-repeat 0 8%;
padding: 3px 0 3px 20px;
margin: .7em 0;
}
.smtxt {
background-color: transparent;
color: #999;
font: 11px/13px Arial, Verdana, sans-serif;
text-align: center;
}
A MILLION THANKS!
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RE: [WSG] CSS list-style
Chris,
I am not sure what system you tested this on, but it doesn't work on any
system I tried, and indeed it shouldn't: the marker is a part of the LI
not of the UL.
Regards,
Mike
Mike Brockington
Web Development Specialist
www.calcResult.com
www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
www.edinburgh.gov.uk
This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
author alone.
-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Chris F.A. Johnson
Sent: 06 October 2009 19:00
To: wsg
Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS list-style
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, Richard Mather wrote:
ul
li class=blackcontent/li
/ul
ul {
color:#380;
list-style-type:disc;
}
ul li.black {
color:#000;
}
--
Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com
===
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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RE: [WSG] Back to basics!
One of the main points of using Unicode is that you don't need to use entities, other than for a handful of chars used by HTML. I always keep a good reference handy, so that I can copy and paste straight into my files, the one I use is: http://www.calcresult.com/reference/text/unicode-reference.html But there are plenty of others, though not many are as comprehensive as that one. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of designer Sent: 10 July 2009 10:08 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Back to basics! Hi all, Could anyone tell me where there is information regarding character code 'usage' that is simple. I always use UTF-8 and, e.g., if I want to put a left quote in my text I can use quot; or #8220; Which is recommended? Any help, links etc most welcome. (I have googled, but . . .) Thanks, Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Accessible websites
I don't really see how the ability to download fonts (that is what you are talking about, isn't it?), will affect web accessibility significantly. It will have a big impact on design, but the technological change surely only affects the back-end of the web browser, not the actual display. PS I presume you meant 'moot' not 'mute' ? Regards, Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Rick Faircloth Sent: Fri 03/07/2009 14:01 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible websites sine qua non also means most basic - yes, it is the most critical aspect of accessibility to information, if the information is contained in textual form, but it is only the most primal level of accessibility to be offered. New techniques, well not actually new, but finally unleashed legally, are being deployed which will allow designers to use any font desired and I'm not so sure that end users will have much control over the display of those fonts embedded in the site. Those font/design techniques, I believe, will dominate web design and could soon make all discussion of font manipulation a mute point, which will drive us towards other solutions, such as whole browser magnification, etc. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** winmail.dat
RE: [WSG] My best practice HTML sheet
The link to the PDF version has an extra folder in it, that should not be there, the actual link to the PDF is: http://keryx.se/resources/html-elements.pdf Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Keryx Web Sent: 25 June 2009 20:29 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] My best practice HTML sheet Hello all! I have updated my best practice table at http://keryx.se/resources/html-elements/ I've switched from XHTML to HTML and I've added an experimental layout with rotated column headers in Firefox 3.5 (JS required, but progressive enhancement is used). Please report any content issues. Please report any problems in FFox 3.5. Known issue: The checkmarks (✓) do not work in MSIE or Webkit based browsers. It does not make the table less understandable though. -- Keryx Web (Lars Gunther) http://keryx.se/ http://twitter.com/itpastorn/ http://itpastorn.blogspot.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] internet explorer 8 problems
Marvin, Have you been able to confirm whether this is actually a problem with the display of your page, or a problem with the way that Jaws is interacting with IE ? It might be that the font _is_ Times, but Jaws is mis-leading you. Not too sure what else you would be able to 'see', but have you been able to prove that IE is seeing your stylesheet at all. For me, I would slap a garish border or background colour onto some random element, but I appreciate that you can't do that on your own. Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin Sent: 23 June 2009 12:26 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] internet explorer 8 problems hi. will post the message below. think my problems on the student web project i did. and when i removed the ../ with just for example a href=styles/Joes_Style.css. just reverts back to times new roman. so wondering if this is a internet explorer problem for version 8. so wondering to uninstall it and go back to 7. cheers Marvin. ps: still not recongizing my tables. as a blind web site designer and relying on a screen reader jaws for windows 10. using windows vista. cheers Marvin. hi. well took out the ../ for the styles and the java script. now just telling me times new roman. and still not displaying the table. so wondering if a internet explorer 8 problem. might have to uninstall internet explorer 8. unless there is a patch, update, or some tool. i know in internet explorer 8, you can run it in compability mode, except not on a local file. this one is giving me a headache. if it does not resolve say in the next 48 hours, then will just go and uninstall. tried looking at a few other web projects and get the same problem. either saying not the font name or saying times new roman. got windows vista home premium sp 2, jaws 10.0.154. and using internet explorer 8 full version. so if i have fixed the src reference. and looking at my other projects same problem. so it could be a internet explorer 8 problem. this is really annoying me. cheers Marvin. E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com Msn: startrekc...@msn.com Skype: startrekcafe Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/ E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com Msn: startrekc...@msn.com Skype: startrekcafe Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] no scrollbars in ff
Kevin, I think that was meant to be a hint that we might be able to debug your code if we could see some of it - very few of us enjoy the extra challenge of 'working blind'. Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of kevin mcmonagle Sent: 08 June 2009 16:30 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] no scrollbars in ff thanks david. David Dorward wrote: kevin mcmonagle wrote: Any suggestions? I suggest not asking people to debug code based on third party examples that work instead of the code that actually causes the problems. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Image mapping standards question
Judging by the lack of responses, I am probably not the only one who didn't understand your question. Particularly, you seem to be using the term 'image mapping' to mean something other than using an image-map element, but I'm not aware of a standard technique for this. Regards, Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Brett Patterson Sent: 01 June 2009 15:35 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Image mapping standards question It has recently come to my attention the struggles of an end-user when viewing images for any user. I have seen sites such as Facebook, MySpace, and other sites where pictures are hosted use roll-overs for recognizing certain parts of an image. I realize that this can be done using image maps as well as when using image mapping, I can add alternative text not only to the img tag itself, but the maps as well to show and describe certain features I feel are important. Are there recommendations for or against this approach? -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Span within a li
There must be more to this than what you have said, because:
Li.item361 a span { what:ever; }
Should work okay, indeed is probably too verbose/explicit.
Mike
Mike Brockington
Web Development Specialist
www.calcResult.com
www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
www.edinburgh.gov.uk
This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
author alone.
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RE: [WSG] Box model in IE7
Personally, I think there should have been a companion article
explaining why designers can't write code.
This is a classic example: the whole point of setting the base font size
to this value is to make the maths easier when sizing all other font
rules; but that itself exposes the fact that the designer is still
basically designing with Pixel sizes!
Under those circumstances, I would tend to encourage the use of sizes in
percentages, after a global reset to 100%.
But then, I am a developer, and think that Design Types shouldn't be
allowed anywhere near an angle bracket - for their own good: they are
too sharp for the un-trained hand.
Mike
-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of CK
Sent: 24 April 2009 00:57
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7
Hi,
Would you elaborate on why the CSS rule invalidates the article? As it
appears the authors explanation is sound.
html {
font-size: 62.5%;
}
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RE: [WSG] Box model in IE7
Tee, My original comment was meant to be taken light-heartedly, but was also taken in direct response to the article quoted by CK: Why Programmers Suck at CSS Design http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/169/ Your comment itself seems to be contradicting itself: If developers _are_ allowed to touch design, then should they not also be allowed to touch on accessibility? Does one _have_ to be a certified usability expert before altering an alt attribute? A sensible balance is the order of the day in all circumstances - extremists must DIE !! Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Where is browser compatibility in wcag?
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] aboeh...@addictivemedia.com.au wrote: I went through WCAG 1 and WCAG 2, and I expected an appropriate guideline to show up under Priority 1 (or Level A), but nothing. Or am I missing something in the obscure wording of the document that is WCAG? A user's choice of technology is not an accessibility issue. If people want to view content on the web, they have to make sure they are using suitable hardware and software - using a 10-year-old browser doesn't qualify, IMO. Should I be able to view a site on my Commodore 64? - Matthew I agree that IE5 is probably not an issue, but suppose for a moment that Andreas had been talking about IE8, or more likely about IE6? Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] IE8 compatibility mode
For the record, the problem that I was having seems to be limited to one installation - everyone else who has tested this has had no issues, so I am going to assume that there _isn't_ anything wrong with my code until proved otherwise. Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Tatham Oddie Sent: 07 April 2009 07:34 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] IE8 compatibility mode Would you mind sending me the link so I can take a look and diagnose why it is not rendering properly without compatibility view? Tatham Oddie http://tath.am *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] IE7 CSS fix
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Gunlaug Sørtun Sent: Thu 4/2/2009 6:15 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE7 CSS fix It's far more reliable than CSS hacks, which may cause problems in future browsers. I don't agree with that assessment, providing one work a bit on selecting the right CSS hack and don't just use any hack because it seems to work. To my mind, that is the definition of a CSS hack - it is abuse of a bug that is believed to only apply to the required browser(s) There is almost never a direct correlation between the bug and the 'fix' that is being applied. Conditional comments aren't pretty, and generally I try to use CSS that does not require different versions for different browsers, but if nothing else, a conditional comment makes its purpose entirely clear - no chance of a future editor tidying up and breaking the hack. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** winmail.dat
RE: [WSG] IE8 compatibility mode
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Chris F.A. Johnson Sent: 25 March 2009 18:03 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 compatibility mode On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Gunlaug S?rtun wrote: The start html tag is missing in your page - you have doctype directly followed by head. That should make no difference. The HTML, HEAD and BODY tags are optional. -- Thanks to everyone. Firstly, that was an embarrassing mistake. And it _was_ a mistake - I had the closing tag in there, but my build process has got messed up somewhere down the line. As an aside, does anyone know what is _supposed_ to happen if you close an optional tag that you didn't explicitly open? I am working on trying to narrow things down, but at the moment it looks like that was the problem, though I am seeing slightly different behaviour today. Will get back to you all once I am certain about my facts. I was aware of the X-UA-Compatible thing, but have no intention of going down that route: I have no way of knowing whether my code is compatible with IE9 or not, so how can I decide which mode it should render in next year? (As you can all see, I'm not too sure whether it is compatible with IE8, and this page doesn't like previous versions much either.) Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] IE8 compatibility mode
Hi, One of the very first pages that I tested in the released version of IE8 was: http://www.calcresult.com/reference/text/unicode-reference.html The rendering of that page is slightly broken (at the moment) in IE6 and IE7 in that the right-hand column overlaps some of the content. What confused me though, was that IE8 insisted on rendering in 'compatibility mode' otherwise known as IE7 mode, even though the rendering is correct when I worked out how to force it into IE8 mode. Can anyone give me any ideas as to what might be triggering compatibility mode? Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Testing in IE7 both Win XP and Vista
The only difference that you are likely to see is going to be due to a different set of default fonts - iirc a few more were introduced with Vista. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Peter Mount Sent: 15 March 2009 01:07 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Testing in IE7 both Win XP and Vista Hello Is it necessary to test web sites in IE7 on both Win XP and Vista? Or is it good enough to just test in IE7 on Vista? I'm just worried about IE7 rendering differently on Win XP compared to Vista. Thanks *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Illinois Functional Web Accessibility Evaluator 1.0 Released!
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Kay in t Veen - Gmail Sent: 13 March 2009 10:59 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Illinois Functional Web Accessibility Evaluator 1.0 Released! double h1 tags are never good! That is a matter of opinion. They are not illegal. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
I believe a best practice is for your web pages to use the same TARGET attribute value so links from your page basically are updating the same new window and not creating a new window for every link followed from your website. Jon I would have to disagree with that. If the user actually _is_ aware that they are about to open a new window, then does the same again somewhere else on the page, or on another page, then they are going to be very confused to discover that only one window has opened. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility
David, I think you are reading things differently to me. I don't know the authors true intention, but I read his words as being a call for anyone who wants to see ARIA implemented to join their team, not necessarily someone who is on the ARIA team. I do also agree with the sentiments though - there is an obvious need to treat 'applications' differently from 'content' in quite a number of ways, and at the moment there is not even a way to signal this explicitly. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Dixon Sent: 01 March 2009 14:33 To: li...@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility Interesting blog entry by the creators of the Cappuccino project (http://cappuccino.org) on the subject on Web Accessibility vs JavaScript Availability: http://rossboucher.com/2009/02/26/accessibility-degradation-in-cappuccin o Personally im in favour of the distinction he makes, but the expectation for the WAI ARIA team to contact _them_ to help their framework use it is rather unrealistic although the WAI ARIA team (as with the W3C in general) need to start producing more palatable documentation rather than just having huge technical manuals on the subject. Interested to know others thoughts on the subject. David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Safari 4 and 3.2 Running Simultaneously
Sounds like a case for a virtual machine, both the Microsoft and VMWare products are free. Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Brett Patterson Sent: 26 February 2009 15:21 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Safari 4 and 3.2 Running Simultaneously You might could try the custom installation when installing and then creating and naming a different folder in your Program Files folder...name it something different than the currently installed Safari browser's folder... -- Brett P. On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Gregorio Espadas gespa...@gmail.com wrote: Hi folks... I want to install Safari 4 in Microsoft Windows for testing pourposes, but I don't want to dismiss Safari 3.2. I've been searching for a solution (installing Safari 4 without affect the current installation of Safari 3.2), but I didn't find anything. I find out that the Safari 4 installation updates the Webkit Framework, not only the browser itself... so, I guess installing in a different folder won't work. I'm aware that Safari 4 includes a User Agent changer, but I guess this tool is not for rendering, only for masquerade in order to use certain webapps. Any one knows how to accomplish this goal? I'll appreciate any suggestion. Gregorio Espadas *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Classes---Adding multiple classes to an element, is there a downfall???
In my own personal opinion, if you get into the situation where you want
to use a selector like:
.class1.class2 { stuff }
then it is time to do a little re-factoring. The whole point of allowing
an element to have two or more classes is so that each class remains
semantically logical. As you pointed out, it is legal to use a selector
like the above, but I would never allow such code on any project I was
working on. Worst case is you need to be more specific with your rules.
Obviously, the cascade determines exactly which rule will win, but I
would also be very wary of relying on source-order - it would be far too
easy for you (or someone else) to decide to tidy up the stylesheet at
some point and change the order of these two rules.
Mike
Mike Brockington
Web Development Specialist
www.calcResult.com
www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
www.edinburgh.gov.uk
This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
author alone.
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RE: [WSG] IE and the button element
That's part of why I posed it as a question, not as a statement. Though, from what I recall, part of the problem was that the mechanism of a DTD was not capable of making such a requirement, and the DTD was regarded as more definitive than the written spec. Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: 23 February 2009 14:52 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE and the button element On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 2:10 PM, michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote: Surely the button element is REQUIRED to be enclosed in a form ?? Is it though? Just looking at HTML 4.01, I don't think it's forbidden/invalid to have form elements outside of form http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-BUTTON and even in HTML 5 I don't get the impression they have to http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/forms.html#the-button-element (Sorry, genuine question...not trying to be facetious). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Failed A Job :(
Not to mention optimum line lengths, amount of whitespace, justification ... It is unfortunately far too common to assume that lessons learned centuries ago are no longer relevant, just because they weren't digital. Actually, that was one of the big changes then: type was inherently fixed-width, so there was no way to write a little bit tighter to fit a word in, the way that free-hand scribes could. Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Pruim Sent: 30 January 2009 11:26 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Failed A Job :( On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:43 AM, William Donovan wrote: Hang on, did I miss something or is this completely OT (off topic). Bible's, Gutenberg, print type faces... Web Standards...? Nahhh It's all about type faces that are easier to read on the web and understanding why some are better then others :) -- Jason Pruim japr...@raoset.com 616.399.2355 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] JavaScript and Accessibility
There were a couple of articles on SitePoint (if I recall correctly) six months ago or so, that covered this, in a fairly positive light. I'm afraid I'm not in a position to chase after them right now; perhaps someone else does have the time? Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] css Help Please
Marvin, It is a little hard for us to help you when you do not include the offending source code. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin Sent: 12 January 2009 01:37 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] css Help Please Hi. well vallidated my html and it passed the vallidation. got three errors in css. not sure why, how do i fix them. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Quote: The fact is that many educators have found that they can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I think you (and those teachers that you refer to) are mistaking an effective lesson, for effective teaching.* Also, I think you mis-understand where the problem lies. Because of the way that Flash works, almost all of it is inaccessible to assistive technology. Adobe could do a better job, the makers of assistive technology could do a better job, but there is very little that the man in the middle can do, other than restricting the scope of Flash to things that could be better done with HTML etc. So from that perspective, any body that pushes Flash as a general purpose medium is doing a disservice to the community. --- * It may be easier to teach people to use Flash to get a particular result, but at the end of the day they have not learned what they need to know, which is that Flash is Evil. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Chrome and Safari render the same...or do they?
To my eyes, the reason is that the font itself is larger on the right hand side. Naturally this will give a larger line-height, unless you have specified otherwise. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jens-Uwe Korff Sent: 09 January 2009 05:22 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Chrome and Safari render the same...or do they? Hi all, thanks for your suggestions. I'm attaching a side-by-side comparison of a snippet of the page since I cannot put any code live, hoping the attachment gets delivered. Safari is on the left, Chrome on the right. If you cannot see the attachment, it shows how the graphical background elements are all lined up vertically, but the type is not. There's a slowly increasing offset between text lines in each of the two boxes. I'll try the rounding approach David suggested and will report back. Sorry for the delay, I've been busy with urgent tasks. Thanks, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
I think you may have missed the point of the earlier question - What can flash bring to the learning environment that cannot be done with HTML, CSS and JavaScript? Regards, Mike PS: Please print and keep this email, as all paper these days comes from managed forests, and therefore more trees will be planted as a result, which sequester more CO2 than mature trees. From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Priti Rohra Sent: 08 January 2009 06:44 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT Hi Christie, Flash is used extensively for creating E-learning courses and adding accessibility to Flash courses enhances the learning experience for students with special needs, provides authors and students with wider choices for creating and accessing E-learning courses etc. In addition, Flash helps to explain the complex concepts easily to students with learning and cognitive impairments, especially those having reading problems and those who find difficulties in understanding complex concepts. Thus Flash can enrich the learning experience for all students and Accessible Flash can help to wards Inclusive Education. Thanks Regards, Priti Rohra Accessibility Tester Net Systems Informatics (India) Pvt. Ltd. Web: www.n-syst.com|www.barrierbreak.com Blog: www.barrierbreak.com/blog Please don't print this email unless you really need to. This will preserve trees on our planet. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Chrome and Safari render the same...or do they?
Any script that relies on an array being ordered, without actually doing a sort() is seriously deficient. As you mentioned yourself, this behaviour is entirely in agreement with the JS spec. Regards, Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Johan Douma Sent: 08 January 2009 11:22 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Chrome and Safari render the same...or do they? Just though I'd let you know about this, I actually think this is a pretty serious problem, because it breaks a lot of scripts and doesn't conform with the other browsers even though it conforms to the javascript spec. V8 (chrome's js engine) can take the values in an array in a random order. If we have my_array = new Array(val1,val2,val3,val4, etc... ); And we loop thru that array with for-in the values might come out as val4, val1, val3 The js spec actually says that it can loop thru an array in any order, but it actualy should be fixed to conform with other browsers. (https://mail.google.com/mail/?zx=zux2r51mnf08shva=1#label/assoc/11eb4c 430f775f2c) Wait and see... Maybe leave a message behind on the bug page to make Google fix it. Johan Douma johando...@gmail.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] issues with too many divs
Do the additional wrapper divs make as much difference to the page weight as the images that you imply are also required? Eleven extra bytes is generally nothing compared to an additional image. Unless you are adding them in four-figure quantities, no amount of DIVs are likely to cause a problem for a modern browser, but overlapping images will start to cause problems while you are still in double-figures. Balance is normally the key to a good design - it is never worth stripping the HTML down to the absolute basics, since that will then require you to increase the complexity of your CSS to compensate, or indeed vice-versa. This also applies to visual design - too much detail makes things look fussy, and often makes them fragile, but without seeing what your designer has given you, I don't think any of us can comment on whether he is being overly demanding or not. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Ben Lau Sent: 07 January 2009 05:36 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] issues with too many divs Hi all, I'm not a fan of having too many DIVs on a page, but due to complicated background designs, I'm forced to use additional wrapper DIVs just to achieve the look. Are there any major downfall in doing so apart from increasing page size? I'd like to be able to convince our designer to simplify the design... Thanks *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] inline-block effect
I suspect that the OP miss-stated the problem. From my understanding, he wants the BGcolor to extend for _only_ the width of the TEXT, not for the entire width of the element. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Tue 12/2/2008 6:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] inline-block effect Am I confused? I thought h2 was a block-level element. On Mon, December 1, 2008 6:32 pm, Andrew famiano wrote: I'm trying to set a background color on a h2. I want the background to be the same width as the header. Since inline-block isn't supported by all browsers, is there another trick in doing this? Thanks *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** winmail.dat
RE: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia
I am hoping that the live testing/trial that will be carried out early next year just shows that this is technically unfeasible. It is quite stupid to be filtering the internet for everyone in Australia, when it is much simpler to be done on each individual PC through the use of software as the previous Liberal government proposed. Andrew, I think you are miss-understanding how Government works: whether something is practical or not is pretty much never a concern unless they have to do the implementation themselves. In this case, it will be the ISP's that are forced to implement it, not the Gov itself. A similar example is in progress in the UK: the Gov have decided to introduce an 'uncrackable' bio-metric ID card for all citizens. They have been told time and again that it will not work, but this all gets outsourced to other companies, so if it fails then they get the blame, and so it goes ahead, against the wishes of pretty much the whole country. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.
Now I am even more confused! I was always under the impression that HTML4 and lower were valid SGML. That XHTML1 and up were valid XML That XML was valid SGML So how the ??? does that leave us with either 'serialisation' of the new language being in-compatible with SGML? Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: 26 November 2008 11:07 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do you say that HTML5 will not be valid SGML? I didn't. I said it wouldn't be SGML. The syntax might (I haven't looked closely enough at it to determine) be valid within the rules of SGML. I don't think it can be parsed as SGML though. Because SGML has never been deployed in browsers and many html authoring tools, HTML 5 defines a new serialization called html, which looks a lot like the previous known SGML. -- http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/html5-is-html-and-xml.html For compatibility with existing content and prior specifications, this specification describes two authoring formats: one based on XML (referred to as XHTML5), and one using a custom format inspired by SGML -- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ While the HTML form of HTML5 bears a close resemblance to SGML and XML, it is a separate language with its own parsing rules. -- http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/parsing.html -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.
The HTML working group is working on HTML5 which will have two serialisations. A tag soup (and emphatically not SGML) serialisation and an XML serialisation (which they are referring to as XHTML5). Why do you say that HTML5 will not be valid SGML? Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared
If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour information. It may be possible to get better compression on a file that contains lots of pixels of the same colour, but all pixels require the same basic storage, regardless of whether they are transparent or not! Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Animated gifs
Not sure if it would help in this instance, but what about splitting this into two files: load a transparent-background logo to quickly load in front, with the ripples as a background? You may then be able to tile the background to save a little. Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lynette Smith Sent: 21 November 2008 00:59 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Animated gifs I had to do this once in the past... and in the end I split the animation up into its individual frames, optimized each frame to within an inch of its life, then re-built it as an animation. Cut the file size down to 10% of the original size. That sounds good, if a lot of work. Thanks Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] li hover bg preloader
Unless it is a new extension that I have never heard of, there is no such thing as 'rollover' in JavaScript. /correct-pedant Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Ortenzi Sent: 08 November 2008 03:53 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] li hover bg preloader you mean on hover (i.e.: a:hover) not on rollover (that's javaScript), don't you? Pedantic Joe *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
That would (probably) be part of the wonders of 'Threaded' view in Outlook: the 'Thread Closed' message is always filed in a different place from the thread that you are reading! Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rimantas Liubertas Sent: 06 November 2008 11:29 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Who are the Away on leave Notices from? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] wondering what part of THREAD CLOSED people don't understand... I have always had trouble understanding messages that I do not see. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brett Patterson Sent: 28 October 2008 12:35 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please When you say support, are you saying that Internet Explorer will not execute JavaScript, or it will execute JavaScript as JScript? And in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript link you provided it states that JavaScript is heavily object-based, so should I assume this as well to be correct? As far as I can see, it does not say that. The facts are that the JScript run-time engine will attempt to execute whatever is thrown at it. In most cases something that looks like valid Javascript will produce something like what was intended. Think of it like support for CSS: IE is always a little bit different, but it is still CSS. And at the end of the day, JScript, ECMAscript, ActionScript and JavaScript are more or less the same beast as far as this discussion is concerned. They are all based on objects, they all implement inheritance, and all of them can be used to write linear, procedural code if required. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brett Patterson Sent: 24 October 2008 02:25 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please Oh, most definitely agreed. Sorry if I started an argument, I only wanted to know what it was. I don't know if it is just me, but this topic seems to be too controversial. Thank you all for answering. Actually, I think you have stumbled upon one of the keys to this issue: it is controversial amongst people who are not familiar with the language. Most of the confusion comes from people who are experts in PHP or C++, and who believe that makes them expert in OO, or indeed University Lecturers that are proficient in neither. If you ask people who are truly expert with JavaScript, they will all tell you that it _is_ Object-Oriented, not least because it is entirely object-based: the first rule of JavaScript is: Everything is an object. A function is an object, a string is an object, and an array is an object. As others have said, most other OO languages implement class-based inheritance, often as a result of their linear underpinnings. People who are used to this approach, then go through some horrible kludges to simulate this unnecessarily in JavaScript apps, and then complain that the results are horrible. Prototype-based inheritance is a very different beast, and one that is much better suited to the way that JavaScript is supposed to be used. Final point of confusion: the library called 'Prototype'. Stupid name - never used a languages reserved word for anything: it is reserved for a good reason, but is now better known than object.prototype itself! Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] WCAG2 in general
Does anyone think that WCAG 2.0 will improve the user experience? Or do you take my view that it only benefits developers, and that the user experience will be worse in future? _Personally_ I think that it is basically a retrograde step. Version one was too complex for most people to fully understand, and is now somewhat out of date, hence the appearance of the WCAG Samurai. WCAG 2 however, is even more complex. It is not entirely clear how/whether it obsoletes version 1, which is mandated and/or referred to by most other standards, so until things make it clear that WCAG 2 must be followed _to the exclusion of version 1_ then I don't see any reason at all to pay any attention to it. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Really? I'll give you ten to one that the majority of PC users have no idea what that key does. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ? ??? Sent: 29 September 2008 10:16 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? I think your users know where 'Home' key is situated on their keyboards!:) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
That is a different story though: we are not talking about _replacing_ the home key with a link, we are talking about implementing additional affordance - if the user does not recognise it, or prefers to do things differently, then nothing is lost. Whether the additional noise on the page is a slight annoyance to screen reader users, or a major annoyance that must therefore be avoided, is a not a question that I can answer myself. What I can ask, (getting back to the original point) is that people stop referring to 'pages' on the Internet. They are documents, and should therefore not be split in arbitrary fashion. It is particularly annoying when I need to print out a document for off-line use, and discover that I have to do a separate 'print' for each section, and each section then requires 110% of an A4 page, i.e. every second page contains approximately one line, plus repeated footer sections. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ? ??? Sent: 29 September 2008 10:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? And you think they guess what 'back to top' link means? In my expirence, I never pressed buttons like 'Back to Top' on web pages. 2008/9/29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Really? I'll give you ten to one that the majority of PC users have no idea what that key does. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
I think that is going to depend a lot on what you are trying to do with your JS knowledge: are we talking about animation, AJAX or something entirely different? Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon Sent: 18 September 2008 16:02 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean. I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have all the old school techniques which I want to shy away from. Does anyone have any resources? Thanks so much Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] An interesting take....
It really feels as if we need a standards process that is much more agile and iterative. Something that is much less monolithic. If WHATWG and the W3C are unable to do this, the browser vendors -- and the market -- will. -jeff I'm not sure if I said it here before or not, but I really feel that we need to have an annual, or possibly two-yearly (I can never remember if that is semi-annual or bi-annual) version of the spec, and most importantly, it should be labelled as such. Then, the vendors would have to say that their browser supports HTMLv1971 (that would be IE) or perhaps HTMLv2008 for (insert your particular favourite.) This would make it far easier for good browsers to sell themselves to the ignorant public. Similarly, the W3C would be prevented from making lots of dramatic, controversial changes in one go, thereby hopefully avoiding the debacle we had with the introduction of XHTML without deprecating HTML. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6
I would also like to point out that Facebook have a different business model from the majority of web sites - they have little to loose by excluding IE6 - they are not a shop, they are not trying to break into an existing market, they have a greater bias towards the home user than the corporate, etc etc. I don't think very many other sites fit that profile, certainly nothing that I am in involved with does. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Sent: 02 September 2008 22:34 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Facebook downgrading support for IE6 This may be acceptable for facebook if thier statistics indicate a low amount of IE6 users, however I think this is hardly acceptable for a majority of my audience, which includes many proffesionals who still run IE6 so they can use company intranets, etc. I would love nothing more than to not have to worry about IE6 however I think that day will be a very long day coming. Regards, Anthony. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Figures out issues. Standards for troubleshooting css
Many people have some sort of reset stylesheet, that turns on a border for every div or every element. The 'perfect' version of this idea can get very complex, but something as simple as setting a border on all divs can often show you where something is stretching or floating where you were not expecting. Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] E649: The default scripting language must be specified for an intrinsic event:
I think you will find that this has no direct effect on accessibility. As I am sure you know, if you rely on these methods for navigation, or if that select isn't made keyboard-friendly, then that is a problem, but inline JavaScript on its own is fine. In some circumstances it is better to have it as an external script file, but only for management reasons, not for operational reasons, if that makes sense? Similarly, I think you can afford to ignore that validation warning - I have yet to come across a browser that tries to run JavaScript as anything else. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 1:07 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] E649: The default scripting language must be specified for an intrinsic event: I looked up the reference from W3C, but all I got is a blurry picture that makes my head spins. I added a meta tag: meta http-equiv=Content-Script-Type content=text/javascript No effect. Example of offenders. select id=select-language onchange=window.location.href=this.value li onmouseover=toggleMenu(this,1) onmouseout=toggleMenu(this, 0)/li So my question, what fatal effect it has for accessibility if I can't get rid of them? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE
This is how I work, but mainly for pragmatic reasons: Better JavaScript de-bugging tools in FireFox. Better CSS support, therefore fewer problems out of the box, and better stylesheet analysis tools. Finally, the one good reason: anything that needs to be fixed for IE can be done with conditional comments, no such luck if you do things the other way around. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David McKinnon Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 11:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Code for Firefox, hack for IE Hi, For a while now, I've been operating on the principle Code for Firefox, hack for IE. That is, writing CSS for the most standards-compliant browser, and then making adjustments for non-standard behaviour. I said this in a meeting last week to argue a point and my boss said who says?. I could have said me, but maybe that's not a good enough answer. Somewhere some years ago I read this, or heard someone at a conference or something and it got stuck in my head. Is this the way anyone works? Is it the best way to work? Does anyone know where I got this idea from? Book? Blog? A bit of googling this afternoon turned up not very much. Thanks, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility
Besides, images maps are a royal pain to maintain. -Tim Not as much of a pain as some of the faux-image-maps that I have seen done with 'pure css' or even css + JavaScript. There are tools out there that make true image-maps point-and-click simple, whereas a small change to some of the cleverer alternatives can potentially break the whole layout. Big question here, is who will maintain the site? As someone else already pointed out, image maps are not inherently inaccessible if the client has a good enough reason for wanting one. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sam Sherlock Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 2:17 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag ok - seo is a bit like voodoo to me the following sites seem to be contray to suggestion http://wordpress.org/ .com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px http://www.alistapart.com - h1 with img alt text same on various pages - a duplicate on all pages (AFAIS) http://www.zeldman.com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px Also I see plenty of sites that are marking the logo in a div rather than a h1 (Shaun Inman Todd Dominey) ie in accordance with the suggestions with Henrik's link and Darren's or am I looking at something the wrong way. Its late, my quick investigation maybe a little rash (perhaps I am jumping to conclusions) - anyway the more I see the more verity I find and more confused I get - S SEO _is_ voodoo. Never trust anyone who tells you that technique X is better for SEO than technique Y, (unless their name is Matt Cutts) Absolute answers to questions like this are not available; they are closely guarded secrets, will vary between different engines, and more importantly, will vary over time. If you want to do things the most accessible way, that is great, but don't let SEO rumours over-ride standards accessibility. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
An individual who brings a case under the DDA can seek monetary compensation. However, the law is supposed to be a last resort, and users are expected to give the website owner the opportunity to make the website accessible before resorting to law. Failure to do so suggests that the plaintiff is just looking for a payout and that they are not actually interested in being able to use the website. The situation may be different in the US but you're not going to get ambulance-chasing lawyers stirring up trouble in the UK. However, even in the UK, precious few lawyers, if any, ever lose money on a case - one side or the other generally has to bear the costs of both sets of lawyers, unless there is an out-of-court settlement. Incidentally, the DDA does not specifically mention that it applies to websites - in fact, the specific regulations that state that .gov.uk websites MUST achieve WCAG AA could easily be taken as an indication that the DDA poses a lesser burden. I am not a lawyer, and even if I was, this has never been tested in court (to my knowledge) and therefore there is no legal precedent. In addition to what Steve said, it is my understanding that legal action cannot be taken in the UK until after notification has been made of the specific issue at hand. In other words, it is perfectly legal to create a site that breaks every WCAG guideline. If someone points out that it is inaccessible in a particular way, only then does it become necessary to work out what changes can reasonably be made to accommodate the issue - if it is unreasonably expensive then you don't have to change. If you change that one thing, but someone then points out another issue, you again get the chance to fix it before a lawsuit may be issued. None of this has anything directly to do with WCAG - knowledge of the latter is arguably as likely to get you into trouble as out of it, since you could then be deemed to be deliberately ignoring something from the AAA guidelines! Like so much of the Law, it is all a big mess, which is why Lawyers make big money, whether they win or lose. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Acceptable autoplay of music
On a more positive note - you could point out that having an embedded player would allow the band to offer the user a choice of music, which would be a better option than alienating many users. (Offering a client a 'better option' usually goes down a lot better than 'don't do that!') From an accessibility angle, it shouldn't be too hard to see that those people who are going to be most affected by this, ie those using a screen reader on top of a normal browser, are likely to be those least able to deal with turning if off, whatever the mechanism. As others have said, the easiest option for most users is to kill the browser/window/tab. Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prisca schmarsow Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 4:09 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Acceptable autoplay of music Hi, same here - I personally hate autoplay on site, I'm gone in a sec I also think this does affect anyone - personal preference or not - people can be caught out by this, in office environments (as mentioned before) as well as impaired users And though a band site might warrant the autoplay - I'd still try to allow site visitor's to be in control of whether or not to listen to the music. As the site is about music - a clearly visible player is likely to be included anyway, allowing easy access to the band's tracks. Not sure what the guidelines say on this - but when I teach best practices for webdesign I advise my students to always give the user the control and not bombard them with anything they might not expect. Just my thoughts... Prisca On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Nancy Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I come to a site with music playing, I leave it immediately without looking at the site. I don't know best practices, but I believe the user needs to be in control. On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Nick Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good morning James, If it helps, what you will find is the typical user experience on band websites is that the audio player automatically starts within 2-3 seconds of the site fully loading. The file size of the player and the audio file are both small so the site isn't slow when being viewed on the user's end. An important thing to keep in mind that the user always needs to have the option to adjust the volume and to start/stop/pause the music. If that is not a feature the user will get annoyed and could potentially leave the site just as quickly as they got there! I hope this helps and have a great day! Nicholas Taylor Web Strategy Systems Manager Purdue University South Campus Courts, Building D 507 Harrison Street West Lafayette, IN 47907 (765) 496-6864 office (765) 494-0793 fax (616) 634-9193 mobile On 8/15/08 10:14 AM, James Leslie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, This is a more best practices question than strictly standards, but I *think* it is on-topic, apologies if not and please mail me off-list if you feel that is more appropriate. I have a band for a client who are requesting that on the homepage loading a music player starts automatically. Do people think this is acceptable for a bands website or would you think that you should always get the user to initiate playback? Thanks James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe:
RE: [WSG] Tables for product=price list
Calm down everyone! In this case, though no doubt someone can find a dictionary that disagrees with me, a list could usually be said to be synonymous with a 'single column table' and conversely, a data table is a set of parallel lists - they are both special cases of each other. On that basis, I think we need to look a little deeper to decide what is right and wrong - perhaps someone could point out some reasons why one treatment is more accessible than the other? Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of silky Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:38 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Tables for product=price list On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, August 11, 2008 10:38 am, James Jeffery wrote: Disagree. ... Again, just because something is a list does not mean it should be in a list. Take for example students grades. The school needs to list the name, the subject, the expected grade, the outcome (30/30) and a percentage (100%). You could easily say its a list of students grades, because it is, but you are not going to put that into a list because it would be wrong to. You could easily say its a list, but it's not. It's a table of related student data in which comparisons are made across the rows and down the columns. One compares across the rows for each student's results (expected, actual and percentage) and compares down columns for differences between students. Much more than a list. you don't understand the word list i think. but that's alright; you can learn. -- silky http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/ http://www.boxofgoodfeelings.com/ http://www.themonkeynet.com/ http://lets.coozi.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Correct markup of fieldset
To my mind, one of the most pressing questions that needs to be answered in any particular case is: How is the fieldset labelled? If it specifically says something like 'postcode' or maybe 'contact details', and is one of a collection of fieldsets, then the button should probably be outside. If the form is simpler, the fieldset is un-labelled, generically labelled, or the only fieldset, then there is no advantage to moving the submit button outside of the fieldset. Of course, what would be best would be a quick study of what actual screen-readers speak in these cases - does the closing of a fieldset lead the user to believe that is the end of the form? I see little issue with the semantics of the form, since the button will still be contained within that boundary, even if it goes outside a fieldset. (Validity of XHTML being a slightly separate argument, especially if, like me, you never use it.) Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: IE6 support - was - Re: [WSG] What is the best solution for IE6 png issue?
Not wanting to hijack the PNG thread, so I've altered the subject. I understand the issues involve in huge migrations, it's not that easy.. At the risk of starting a war, it doesn't sound like you do understand. Before even starting to plan a migration, any decent corporation, of whatever size, must first demonstrate a business advantage to the task. The bigger the organisation is, the more likely they will have a desktop image (XP Pro) that can be applied to any machine they buy in, regardless of what is on it, so neither hardware obsolescence nor the withdrawal of software support holds a big fear for most. The true question is not 'why not upgrade to IE7?' but actually 'why change?'. I can give numerous reasons to upgrade to FF, but no real reasons to upgrade to IE7. As an aside, I am not at all worried by this - it was the longevity of IE4 that did most to make people aware of the alternatives; hopefully IE6 will have the same effect: a little more short-term pain for some long-term gain as they switch to Safari. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] firefox treatment of wrapper overflow height
Sorry folks, but am I missing something here?
Why do you think that it is important to stuff something invisible
inside an (otherwise) empty div?
Regards,
Mike
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Hucklesby
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:46 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] firefox treatment of wrapper overflow height
Andrew Newman wrote re: using a DIV to enclose floats:
a little more valid / semantic
div.clearer {clear: both; line-height: 0; height: 0;}
div class=clearernbsp;/div
Of course, that will create an extra vertical space in the
layout. If that space is unwanted, you could alternatively use this:
div class=clearer!-- --/div
The empty comment prevents this space.
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RE: [WSG] firefox treatment of wrapper overflow height
Not the clearing div, I know what that is for!! What is the _content_ of the div supposed to do, that an truly empty div would not? Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kevin mcmonagle Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 10:33 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] firefox treatment of wrapper overflow height its used as a shim. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry folks, but am I missing something here? Why do you think that it is important to stuff something invisible inside an (otherwise) empty div? Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] AJAX and Clickable Elements
I have a similar issue with www.calcResult.com: everything is done with JavaScript, but what I do is make all forms link to a page explaining that the site requires JavaScript, and why. Sometimes I see that page when a script I am working on fails, but even that is arguably better than nothing happening at all. Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 3:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] AJAX and Clickable Elements Why? Can't you have a sensible fallback (e.g. in case the user middle clicks to open in a new tab). Because the data is going to be loaded into an element within the document dynamically. There would be no option to open it in a new tab. The loaded data will allow users to click on links that will take them to the spots on the map. The only fallback would be for users who don't have JS enabled, but without JS enabled the application is useless because it relies on JS to use the Google Maps API. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Semantic markup of a byline date/time
I may be wrong, but your use of cite looks the wrong way around - surely a citation should point at a document? Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jens-Uwe Korff Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 7:52 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Semantic markup of a byline date/time Did you manage to find a solution to this? Hi Ben, I ended up using this structure: div class=articleDetails cfix h5Nam vestibulum leo id condimentum/h5 citeDominus 23, 2008 - 10:36AM/cite pPage 1 of 3 a class=single href=#Single page view/a/p p class=commentsa href=#commentsComments span45/span/a/p /div *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
At the end of the day, this whole question is a no-brainer: On the one hand you can annoy [a few .. most] people by forcing them to scroll horizontally, Or you can keep everyone happy by not allowing a horizontal scroll bar. Whether it is a major issue or a trivial issue is irrelevant as there is no compromise required: I absolutely guarantee that no genuine usability trial is ever going to find someone complaining that the site _doesn't_ expand beyond the view port! Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Lecoat Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 11:27 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming On 3 Jul 2008, at 22:16, Al Sparber wrote: When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA. I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-) Well, he's speaking for me as well. Al, do you really *not* find having to continuously scroll back and forth horizontally (because the width of the text block is wider than the viewport) to be an annoyance? If so then okay, but I do not believe that you are typical in this regard. -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming
Yes, a similar criticism has been levelled at Elastic layouts -- that when you enlarge the text the layout grows with it, I think you meant to say MAY grow - a carefully designed elastic layout will not expand the viewport horizontally. Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Firefox 3 and script tag 'problems'
Does anyone have an example of this behaviour? Not quite sure I follow the issue... Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken McInnes Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Firefox 3 and script tag 'problems' G'day all, Just a quick 'heads up' on Firefox 3 rendering compared with Firefox 2 rendering. If you 'self-close' a script element in the head, the validators will not pick it up as a problem - is is well formed xml (element is self-closed) and - it is validly placed (correctly placed within the 'head') *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?
Rubbish. I have plenty of experience of commercial-grade spam filters, and when 95% of received mail is spam, you don't have a hope of getting it all, unless you want to block a significant portion of legitimate mail as well. Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Ray Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 12:21 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)? A decent spam filter will get rid of most, if not all, of the junk - why not encourage your clients to get a good spam filter or use an email client with a good built-in filter? Jason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?
Michael, In many ways we are the lucky ones - if you are doing SQL server day to day, or pretty much anything other than HTML then there are no standards at all - just 'on time/budget' or 'not/fired'. Stuff like SOX has given some impetus to doing things 'the right way' instead of the quick way, but still not nearly as well documented. Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Persson Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 2:34 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)? Dear Chris, I could not said it better myself. I am alone front end developer and technical responsible for the projects we are creating in the company i work. I have tried to implement web standards, accessibility and usability for the last 2 years but sometimes I am just chopped by the shoulders because noone else have any idea of what I am talking about... Michael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?
So does everyone agree that the form is the best option for entire cross - situation compatibility? James I think that is really an individual decision - a simple contact form on its own has a number of usability issues, which are well documented elsewhere. For the user there is the lack of inherent feedback, and for the customer there is a significant chance that the form will be spammed just as heavily as an email hyperlink. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] MA in web development
What kind of students will the course be aimed at? Arts graduates? Scientists? Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 11:31 PM To: wsg Subject: [WSG] MA in web development Hello everyone, Last night a proposal has been hinted at me to put together an MA course in web development for a UK University. That's all I have been told so far. I was wondering what people were feeling such a course ought to contain. I have my views of course, but would not like to influence the feedback at this point. All suggestions are very much appreciated. Regards, Jason Grant www.flexewebs.com/semantix *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
My take on this, is that IT ALL DEPENDS ! Every site is different. For example: www.calcresult.com does not use a traditional image-based logo, so the arguments that the site logo is 'just a simple image' fails completely. Some sites look a bit like a newspaper. Newspapers themselves vary considerably (in the UK at least.) Some have their name in large type, eg the SUN Others prefer a more subtle masthead, like The Times If I had to replicate the former, I would undoubtedly put the word SUN into an H1 - they care about their brand, and have little or no logo. For The Times, I would not use an H1 - they believe that their reputation speaks for itself. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jen Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:40 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo An h1 is definitely not for marking up the company logo. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
If you want to look at things from that angle, then we have to make a split between what the user wants - news, information, entertainment, etc. what the commissioner wants, and what the search engines want. All sites on the web arguable fall into one of three categories: Hobby sites, Businesses, Promotional sites (for businesses mainly) NB The difference between the latter two may not be obvious to the end-user - it is a business decision made by the owner. For sites that do fall into the latter category, whether or not they carry news items, the site is NOT 'about the news' it is about promoting the larger business. Clearly every site needs to make the right balance between the needs of the users, the owners and the search engines, but any suggestion that this can be covered by a single sweeping, blanket statement is a surprise from someone with your reputation and experience. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:37 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo But the Webpage (or the entire site for that matter) is not be about The Sun or The Times - it's about the news. And the news is what the user is looking for. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Marking up company logo
But does two H1's in a row really agree with the spec? My understanding was that a sub-level could repeat immediately, but H1's were not supposed to. For example: Okay: H1 H2 H2 H3 H1 H2 Bad: H1 H1 Regards, Mike That's a good point and it may explain the ALA's approach: h1The Times/h1 h1There is water on Mars/h1 Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Thierry, I think your misunderstanding lies earlier than my last post. If someone wishes to use an abbr tag in the way that it was intended by the spec, then that is perfectly acceptable, obviously. If their scripting then fails in IE they have three clear choices - write a more robust script, change their HTML, or ignore the stupid browser - I think most people would recommend the former, but many people have _chosen_ not to make use of abbr If someone decides to miss-use a fieldset, by exploiting a weakness / loophole in the spec then that is dubious at best. If that then breaks an existing script, I think most people would recommend that the HTML is corrected. My point was, that if even one browser does break, due to the browser following the perceived _intention_ of the spec, then that is a big deal - for this particular instance - and having a few that pass is not entirely relevant. Hope that clears it all up? Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 7:01 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup No, its not. In this case, if any single browser breaks a related script, then the mark-up cannot be used - working on the majority is not enough to make it viable. Does that mean we should drop the ABBR element because IE can't handle it properly? In what way is that the same as the (ab)use in question? Hi Mike, This is how I understood your posts in the context of this thread: Jason: you cannot reference a fieldset through DOM unless it is inside a form Hassan: An easy theory to test, and hence, to prove utterly wrong Mike: I am doubtful that you managed to test every browser version known to mankind before you replied - one or two combinations doesn't really make effective proof! Hassan: Au contraire, one is enough to prove the contention wrong Mike: No, its not. In this case, if any single browser breaks a related script, then the mark-up cannot be used To me, it sounds like you're saying that if a script breaks in a browser because of how a particular element behaves in relation to the DOM, then that element should not be used. And this is why I mentioned ABBR since IE lt 7 creates extra nodes that makes most CSS and script fail. Did I misunderstand that last post? -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
No, its not. In this case, if any single browser breaks a related script, then the mark-up cannot be used - working on the majority is not enough to make it viable. Does that mean we should drop the ABBR element because IE can't handle it properly? In what way is that the same as the (ab)use in question? Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] accessibility/usability in a poll: check a radio button when focusing on a text input field
It MIGHT be possible to use CSS alone to show/hide the text field depending on the last option being clicked, but it would need a lot of testing. It would certainly be far easier to do this in JS, and as this is only an enhancement, not required functionality, I don't see an issue with doing it that way, unless you have a very specific user-base? Regards, Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julián Landerreche Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 5:58 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] accessibility/usability in a poll: check a radio button when focusing on a text input field Hi. Probably this can't be done without (unobstrusive) Javascript. In simple polls, sometimes there is an Other option that is also provided with a text input so visitors can give some feedback on this other option. Like this: ( ) Option 1 (o) Option 2 ( ) Option 3 ( ) Other: [ I prefer this option because... ] The problem is: In that example, the user has filled in the text input on the Other option, but the selected radio is still the Option 2 So, when the user focus/clicks directly on the text input field, the corresponding radio button (Other) isn't selected. Then, he submits the poll, but because he didn't choose the Other option, he really didn't submit the option he thought he has chosen. The desired behavior (selecting the Other radio button when focusing on the text input field) will probably be easily achievable with some JS, right? But here I am, asking to this list if you know a better approach to this issue. Thanks. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Judging by how quickly you replied, I am doubtful that you managed to test every browser version known to mankind before you replied - one or two combinations doesn't really make effective proof! In any case, is this just a case of the browser inserting what it thinks should be there, as with tbody ? Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder An easy theory to test, and hence, to prove utterly wrong :-) Not that I support the idea of using a fieldset outside a form, but bogus is bogus... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
My advice would be to try as hard as you can NOT to sell accessibility. Sell your overall services, but mention that your competitors 'tend' to leave their customers vulnerable to law suits, exclude customers for no good reason, etc. Tell your clients that your competitors are literally 'sub-standard'. If your client looks for a technical explanation of this, explain that your work is intended to be 'forwards-compatible', tell them that you don't expect to get any follow up work when you are finished, etc Success in any venture requires you to be different from everyone else, somehow. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 2:27 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural mark-up Au contraire, one is enough to prove the contention wrong, No, its not. In this case, if any single browser breaks a related script, then the mark-up cannot be used - working on the majority is not enough to make it viable. Since I believe we both think that the mark-up in question is inadvisable, finding a physical reason to back up the semantics would actually be a good thing. Anyway, thanks for doing two tests that I don't currently have the time for! Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Accessibility for HTML Email
I'm guessing you don't actually administer a corporate size spam-filtering 'solution' do you? (The word solution should really be in quadruple quotes, 'cos it ain't one.) Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 9:22 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility for HTML Email Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote: Although spam is a big red flag for many. Which should ideally be solved at the email server + email client end, in my view. P -- Patrick H. Lauke *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] [OT] users - IT literate?
Have to disagree with you there - just because some people do it for a good reason doesn't mean that the illiterate aren't. Certain people that I know, type the full, exact URL for a site into the Google search box in the middle of the page, wait for the results to load, then click the first link - don't even use the 'I'm Feeling Lucky' button - I can't begin to list the number of ways that process could be improved on, but it is generally taken as a personal insult if I tell that person they are being stupid (even when I try my hardest to sugar-coat it.) It only takes a second or two longer, so what is the point in learning something different? Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 2:01 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] [OT] users - IT literate? But that's not because lots of people don't know how to use the address bar, its because MOST PEOPLE find it easier to type partial URL's into Google rather than typing the whole URL into the address bar - plus if you make a slight error you get prompted for the correction rather than just told it doesn't exist. Experienced IT literate people do this too. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] [OT] Posting [was:Best way to hide form legends?]
Maybe for you, but for many of us, a carefully edited reply makes perfect sense. Failing to ever truncate a conversation may be wasteful, but even then, by top-posting you allow people to easily check previous messages that have since been deleted. The message that you are quoting was neither unusual, nor offensive in any way. (In my opinion, which is all that matters.) Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jens Brueckmann Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 11:31 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] [OT] Posting [was:Best way to hide form legends?] By that I meant someone who sees [...] -Original Message- I've got a search box [...] A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] valid video in (x)html?
And if JavaScript is turned off? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Persson Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:37 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] valid video in (x)html? My experience tells that Videos and anmimated things should be made in Flash as streaming is the melody to make this the best way. http://www.vivrecotesud.fr/ script type=text/javascript var so = new SWFObject(swf/visit.swf, objflash, 352, 242, 6, #3f); /script Ohh i didnt introduce myself... Im Michael and im a web designer since 1996, trying to learn the best way to do different things and I am very comfortable with handcoding my strict XHTML and CSS fom some years now. I also do SEO (search engine optimization) both for static, dynamic and Full Flash websites with great success... The best Michael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:23 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare snip What developer on this planet is going to take advantage of a feature thats been put into IE and not Mozilla That would be pragmatic Intranet developers, who know that they only need to worry about IE, with a specific version, on a specific version of Windows, and know that their bonus depends not on quality but on deadlines. Sad, but true. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Harris Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:48 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That would be pragmatic Intranet developers, who know that they only need to worry about IE, with a specific version, on a specific version of Windows, and know that their bonus depends not on quality but on deadlines. You're limiting the damage, Michael. What about all those who bought (buy!) Frontpage or had it installed as part of their select agreement. Sad, but true. Well, on that we agree ;-) cheers mark I doubt if many of the people on this list would regard the users of Frontpage as 'Developers', but your point is totally valid! Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: Re[2]: [WSG] accessible client side form validation
If I may be permitted to be pedantic for a moment, I believe that JavaScript may be used to provide Assistance with Validation (So you are both correct...) Security can only ever be _reliably_ provided on the server side, but validation of user input is perfectly acceptable as client side code, with or without server side follow up, as long as the server can tolerate the effects of that validation not being carried out. As with all religious wars, the key to peace is understanding of the actual messages, not just blind repetition of slogans. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:52 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: Re[2]: [WSG] accessible client side form validation Importance: High Hmm, why the Republic of JS kept saying it's form validation? tee On Apr 23, 2008, at 11:28 AM, Alexey Novikov wrote: Hello, friends. There is no client side form *validation*. There is client side form *assistance*. Validation should be performed on server. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] accessibility and brower compatibility for Kiosk mode?
In a word, Yes. Some people will try and drag the 'thumb' of the bar, which as I mentioned last time may not be possible at all. Others will just try and use the up and down arrows, which could be painful for a long list, especially if the calibration of the touchscreen is at all problematic (which it always is.) So, if at all possible, split up long lists and find a way to present them separately. Not sure what you are used to, but the ATM's over hear are typically restricted to four 'soft-keys' down one side of the screen, and possibly four more on the other side. This restricts you to just four (eight) options per screen, plus a numpad, so you might want to check if there is any chance that your design might need to work on one of these. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 11:08 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility and brower compatibility for Kiosk mode? Thank you Mike and steve, One last question, will it be a problem to scroll this: http://lotusseedsdesign.com/scroll.png it's about the same size (width) as the checkbox, but I do have concern if it will be a problem to scroll up and down with finger. This also bring to my attention that I have never seen an ATM machine that has scrollbar. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] accessibility and brower compatibility for Kiosk mode?
Please help me with another question, with multiple list menu, we use 'ctrl' and 'Ctrl + shift' to select multiple options, how does this work with touch screen? tee Unless you have a keyboard, it probably doesn't work. Some touchscreens (try) to let you do dragging and stuff, but I think you are going to have to change your select box into a list of checkboxes, or something like that. Even on screens that do let you drag, anything as complex as multi-select is going to be completely non-intuitive - after all I don't know many 'ordinary' web users that know about multi-select without being told explicitly, they are too used to only being able to select a single item, and it is almost impossible to discover by accident. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] accessibility and brower compatibility for Kiosk mode?
Tee, It sounds like you are having a bit of difficulty with the 'Accessibility' label here: Accessibility is just one branch of Usability, neither of which ever go away completely. I used to do quite a lot of touch-screen kiosk development, but I know that things have moved on a little since then, so you may not have to worry about the parallax problems that I did. Are your kiosks touch-screen, trackball or something else? We can immediately rule out issues with non-visual devices of course, but the method of access dictates what else needs to be considered. In my case, the primary issue was 'target size' - our original system automatically made links into large buttons, but HTML links can be pretty hard to hit unless they are treated carefully. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:53 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] accessibility and brower compatibility for Kiosk mode? I am working on a site, of which a section is strictly for Kiosk mode only. Had no experience with this therefor I treated it as if it's for web browsers with all accessibility care. Submitted the first draft, client sent back correction and feedback, while he didn't specifically said to ignore all other browsers except the IE7, I do get an impression that the IE browser is the only one he concerns about. This is a client with print design (very pixel demand challenged) background and very flash oriented, doesn't care about accessibility; my understanding is that this section of the site will be placed in a location with kiosks and touch screen, so that means browser is very specific, strictly IE7. Does this means no accessibility concern needed? Also, I have just realized that kiosk uses the same browser as web. Do you know if it's IE domination? My google search showed up IE only. Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] accessibility and brower compatibility for Kiosk mode?
2) Is there anything I can use to replace the checkbox for the Kiosk? It needs to be large but from my testing, I can't make it larger by adding paddings, width and height. Not to mention this won't work with Safari and Camino (they have another web version for the same section ) Have you got labels wrapping your checkboxes? If not, try that, with a bit of padding. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] How to make diagonal lines change color?
Do I understand this right: you want the background to change, as the mouse passes over one of these diagonal lines - or just when the user mouses over any part of the background? Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Laert Jansen Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 11:55 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] How to make diagonal lines change color? Hello everyone. Well there´s something I want to do but I have no idea if it´s possible to be done and how would I do this. My website (www.laertjansen.com) has some two color diagonal lines as a bg. What I want to do is: On the mouse over color X it becomes color Y On the mouse over color Y it becomes color X Is it possible to be done? Thanks a lot for any help -- Laert Jansen www.laertjansen.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] How to make diagonal lines change color?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 9:40 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How to make diagonal lines change colour? Hi, From a usability and accessibility point of view doing this is a very bad idea, so is way OT for Web Standards Group. How can you possibly say that until we have a proposed implementation on the table? It does sound like it could be a little irritating, but certainly there is little likelihood if it interfering with the more extreme examples of AT. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] How to make diagonal lines change color?
That sounds very complex to achieve, if it is possible: As things stand, the lines you are talking about don't actually exist, they are an artefact of the tiled bb image you are using (nb, the effect was too subtle for me to see on the first machine I viewed your site on) - to do what you describe you will first of all have to make those lines tangible somehow, or at the very least a single diagonal line that could be positioned to give you the visual effect you describe. Secondly you have to detect the transitions between one line and the next, which require either a tangible block (not easy for a diagonal), an image map, or some careful maths tied to some JavaScript. Out of all that, all I can see that would be possible would be to set up two approximately full-page-size layers above your background, but beneath all of your content. One layer with a single grey diagonal line, and the other with a single black diagonal line. Then, track the position of the mouse, and if it is over any of the content, hide both floating layers. If the mouse is over the calculated position of a grey line, then show the black-line-layer, with the position adjusted so that the overlay line co-incides with the bg-line. When the mouse moves over to a black line, hide the black-line-layer, make the grey-line-layer visible, and position appropriately. That sounds like a lot of work to me, maybe too much code to even work, but does sound like a fun effect, if the colours had a fraction more contrast. Everyone: feel free to chip in if you think I have missed anything, Regards, Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Laert Jansen Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 2:25 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How to make diagonal lines change color? Hey Mike, there´s a black line and a grey line when the mouse passes over one grey line it becomes blackwhen the mouse passes over one black line it becomes grey..only the line that the mouse passes over would change its color..not the whole bg or the other lines On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 4:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do I understand this right: you want the background to change, as the mouse passes over one of these diagonal lines - or just when the user mouses over any part of the background? Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] RE: NVU
Don't mean to be negative, but NVU is a pretty poor choice: even its own home page admits that! (Last release was 2005, and that should never have been classed as version 1, and no development work being undertaken.) As far as I can see, the best choice on the open source route is SeaMonkey. Regards, Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gregorio Espadas Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:31 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest Nvu is a great choice. I use Bluefish http://bluefish.openoffice.nl/ and Komodo Edit http://www.activestate.com/Products/komodo_ide/komodo_edit.mhtml , both great, both opensource, both free. Gregorio Espadas gespadas [at] gmail [dot] com On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Delilah Hinman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could also try out Nvu (http://nvu.com), which is a free WYSIWYG editor. Just a thought. *;; Delilah Hinman Viere Media . com http://viemedia.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Dreamweaver8
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] one thing I miss about dreamweaver is that you can do a 'search all' and get a list of all instances of the thing you are searching for rather than cycling through a 'find...find...find...' list. So far it's the only program I've used that does that and I really notice not having it. My favourite general-purpose text editor is UltraEdit, which does what you describe: returns a list of files containg your search string, and the entire line(s) that contain that string. It's not a web-specific tool, but does beat everything else I have tried to date. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Software to read aloud web pages (targetted at literacy issues not vision issues)
This has been possible on every Apple Mac for the last fifteen years or so, and you have the option of changing the voice if you want, unfortunately the good versions that are available for Windows are all relatively expensive. Regards, Mike -Original Message- Someone's asked me about software that will read aloud from a web page, in a user friendly way, to be used by secondary students whose reading age is low prevents them being able to access the content. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
