Re: [Zen] Re: Add Nothing Extra
Mike, I don't think that's fair. I think Chris--as always-- is very clear. I only suggest that he think in terms of A D.. and oh-- oh yeah: Potomac. Happy Easter .. :) --- On Wed, 3/23/11, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Add Nothing Extra To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 23, 2011, 12:38 AM Chris, Is it possible to make your sarcastic observation more constructive so we can learn from it? Thanks. Mike From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 23 March, 2011 10:44:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Add Nothing Extra On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, True enough.. but while i haven't followed this thread.. ..is there is some implied threat or point. Whose efforts are in vain-- and what where the hopes anyway? Thanks..k --- On Tue, 3/22/11, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote, rather incautiously: Personal revelations on the Internet, that's rare. I brought together K and M, but alas my communication was ineffective as a method to transmit thoughts. I was being sarcastic about the Internet, and intending to be agreeing with ED. Personal revelations on the Internet, how like water at a river side. Also, for some reason, the word rare was activating a memory of Tatterhood where rare == odd but not bad. One flower will be fair, one flower will be rare. Like here: http://scandinavian.wisc.edu/mellor/taleballad/pdf_files/tatterhood.pdf Anyways, lesson learned: when I use sarcasm on the internets, I have to explain myself. Sorry about that! --Chris Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Mar 22, 2011, at 9:17, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes! Or bits of personal insight. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane chris@... wrote: Wouldn't the more exact analogy would be selling bits of data on a yahoo group? Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane On Mar 22, 2011, at 7:24, seacrofter001 seacrofter001@... wrote: For 24,000 posts, Bill, Mike and Mayka have been selling water on the Yahoo Zen Forum. Ho! Ho! Ho! All their efforts have been in vain. only joking --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Mayka, Just This! Just This Just Thi Just Th Just T Just Jus Ju J !Just This Mike Mike wrote: but sometimes words can kill, or save, a man. Words can kill or save a man Words can't kill or save buddha nature Words, No words, Just This! Mayka
Re: [Zen] Re: Add Nothing Extra
Chris, True enough.. but while i haven't followed this thread.. ..is there is some implied threat or point. Whose efforts are in vain-- and what where the hopes anyway? Thanks..k --- On Tue, 3/22/11, ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Add Nothing Extra To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 10:23 AM Personal revelations on the Internet, that's rare. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Mar 22, 2011, at 9:17, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes! Or bits of personal insight. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane chris@... wrote: Wouldn't the more exact analogy would be selling bits of data on a yahoo group? Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane On Mar 22, 2011, at 7:24, seacrofter001 seacrofter001@... wrote: For 24,000 posts, Bill, Mike and Mayka have been selling water on the Yahoo Zen Forum. Ho! Ho! Ho! All their efforts have been in vain. only joking --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Mayka, Just This! Just This Just Thi Just Th Just T Just Jus Ju J !Just This Mike Mike wrote: but sometimes words can kill, or save, a man. Words can kill or save a man Words can't kill or save buddha nature Words, No words, Just This! Mayka
Re: [Zen] First Master of Dzogchen
Hi Mike... (My comments follow yours below)... I fully accept Bill's statement that zen is a-ethical. I agree, but this doesn't give us the full picture either. If you look at many of the illustrations of Buddhist iconography you can see that to the right of buddha sits Manjusri (Bodhisattva of Wisdom)) and to his left sits Samantabhadra (Bodhisattva of Compassion). Without these two, Buddha is crippled. Without wisdom, compassion becomes a weak form of sentimentality - without compassion, wisdom becomes cold and abstract. I know this is not about ethics per se, but I find in Zen circles too much of the latter is prevalent (I put myself in this category). As I understand Bill's practice-- he does not include reference to buddhism, so I don't know if he would ammend his statement with the above, but thats up to him. Yet, you do point to the heart of my sadness in all this. I'm feeling that I see zen and similar practices as being a-emotional. I'm troubled with the devotion to becoming detached and mindfully composed. Benign. Its said that false humility is the worst form of arrogance. I'm not sure thats true, but if so-- then similarly, professing to be ego-less, non-dual yet benignant, seems to be the epitome of self-centered rightiousness. Dunno.. maybe I'm just going thru a stage of cynicism, and like all things, this too will pass. I like your references to wisdom and compassion. It appeals to my sense of balance. I understand homeostasis in medicine. Equilibrium in economics. I think whats been bugging me is that I also see the value of passion in all its connotations. Work, love-- and any chosen contemplative practice. I don't believe in the five poisins. Labelling anything as inherently good or bad is by definition: Dualism. But then-- so is passion as I understand it. Its ironic that you are teaching language as this topic arises. The words we choose to describe our experience-- become our experience. I see great value in anger, greed, hate and the like. I welcome them to my tea table with the rest. They serve me in return, as instructive guides and companions. Anger, for example can serve as a very benevolent catalyst for change. The associations we create linking emotions with words become thoughts and actions. As Easter is approaching, I happened to read an article about St. Francis. He said, You must lose your life-- to find your life. Through loss, trauma, crisis, stress and limits, we are offered a doorway to a deeper awareness and clarity of consciousness. Few here know this better than you, as you experience the events in Japan. I know from my own experience that this process is not easy to recognize or embrace. But I also know that what we resist-- persists. I guess this is a process of 'letting go'. I was disappointed to read that St. Francis spent his whole life finding himself. Seeking his God-self or Christ-self or Buddha-self , or what I call authentic self-- I think it IS important to do this, but I also see it as egotistic. So from this, I conclude that one has to embrace and cherish and even celebrate this ego-drive, to then--release it? The ego as the Great illusion /deluder, yet the priest who wrote the article on St. Francis wrote that moving into the true self , is a calling that is so powerful that once set upon this path, one can never get enough of it, because then you are living in the eternal. I would reject this.. as it seems like an addiction. And again--ego-driven. So I am full circle on my dilemma: How to indeed find the buddha-nature within --without spending your whole life focused on yourself? Please take care, Mike. I have been watching the debate over forcing all Americans to leave Japan. Reading your other posts.. it does sound horrific. You are in my heart.. Kristy
Re: [Zen] First Master of Dzogchen
ED, I have comments on the attached but will offer them later. But wanted to share this now.. Does this line-up with the teachers you had? k You mentioned when you are simply present to the here and now Longchenpa wrote Spontaneously present meditative stability...This idea needs to be accentuated..for without this settled base, distraction is a continuing swirl that never recognizes. Jax: Yes, you are quite right. So let's explore what this settled base called spontaneously present meditative stability actually is. This base is the result of the absence of belief in an inherently existent I or self. When the mind is no longer generating a belief in an inherently existent self, like when we were under two years old, there is no one to become distracted nor one that needs to recognize in order to become free of a continuing swirl of distraction. Dzogchen makes sense only within the context of there being no one who needs to recognize nor who could be distracted, as is pointed out by Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti. There is no need for practice as there is no one to practice. The idea of a path makes no sense if there is no traveler. Enlightenment makes no sense if there is no one to become enlightened. Purification of obscurations makes no sense if there is no one who has ever been obscured. Saving all sentient beings makes no sense if there are no sentient beings to save. There is no self to realize anything nor to attain anything. Dzogchen starts with this. What we are is this vast field of Emptiness/Being/Awareness/Luminosity. When embodied, its essential Beingness as Dharmakaya, known as the Mother Light resides in the heart chakra. From this Mother Light arises its luminous aspect of Clear Light Intelligence, the Sambhogakaya. This perfect Clear Light Intelligence is called the Son Light. It is a thigle, a crystal clear sphere of pure and perfect Awareness that resides in the brain. The Mother Light and Son Light are inseparable within the central channel, more precisely connected through a Light channel called the Kati. The Light of the Son Light shines out through the eyes. The Son Light can exit the body during life in an out of body experience or in phowa practice. The luminous dynamic energy aspect of the Son has the potential for elaboration into thought etc. and consciousness. This level of consciousness, as pranic energy has a quasi-consciousness and its energies circulate through the various channels of the subtle body, but not in the central channel. It is this quasi-conscious mind that observes the body, emotions, perceptions etc. and generates or imputes a self definition, identifying itself with the body and/or personality. This is the origin of the sense of self in the mind. This mind has mistaken the body, personality etc as an actual identity. It is due to the belief in this fantasized self that the mind suffers. When the mind comes to know with total conviction that the personal self is not real, the sense of self is no longer generated. Just like when a child learns there is no real Santa Claus. Although the child may now know it, it still may take a little time to give up the idea altogether. All of this drama is taking place within the Son Light, as clouds of thought energy pervade the crystal sphere of Awareness in the skull. That is why the I seems so intimate, it appears within our sphere of Awareness at the subject pole of experience. When the I belief vanishes, the Son Light is now called Rigpa or Self-Knowing. But remember, our nature as the Mother Light has never been subject to change, it is the Space in which all things appear. Dzogchen from the beginning takes the position of the Son Light being as it is, without the sense of I. Hopefully this could be the result of the insights established at the Direct Introduction or during the Trekcho phase. But the philosophical position of Dzogchen is that there is no self that needs liberating or needs to recognize something... and that's correct. If we say we do practice initially, who is doing the practice? Not the Son Light or Awareness, as it doesn't do practice. Who is the one that becomes distracted? The Son Light doesn't become distracted. The mind is projecting a distracted self, like a character in our dreams at night, but this is projected while we are awake, due to the minds mistaken sense of identity. How does the mind become free of its mistaken sense of self? There are two ways that I know work. gTumo yoga or Kundalini yoga is for many the easiest and most powerful in the depth of revelation. When the kundalini is activated in the crown chakra, the mind is transformed into its true nature as Clear Light, and ceases creating the I or self. All that remains is Rigpa in oneness with its field, and it does notice itself like looking in a mirror during that experience. Later the mind state
Re: [Zen] First Master of Dzogchen
Hi Steve, Very good points. I wonder about this as well. Whether its a fake-it-till-you-make-it-thing or not, part of my own dis-illusionment with all such practices, beit zen Dzogchen, kunalini and the rest--results from what I perceive as a big hypocracy. Masters go on and on about ego-less no self existence, yet their own egos are vested in gathering students, book deals, and the attention they receive. Especially when its trendy to claim to be on a spiritual path these days. A lot of this just rings hollow to me right now. I've been quite critical of many ideas presented on the forum, probably because a lot of it is a been there--done that -thing. I've taught yoga-- learned all about this kundalini stuff.. did the zen retreats and practices. Read the books. Stopped reading to go within. And the like. Ed's comments a couple of days about the steps on the path to enlightment , reminded me of a book series that I own-- but never finished reading. I decided to grab one, and read it on the plane east-- (meaning Maryland-- not the bid East in Asia;) The series is aptly titled, Steps on the Path to Enlightment. Its a 5-book series, and I grabbed the one volume of the shelf that would likely irritate me. Its Vol II-- Karma. But if i can stomach it-- perhaps i can learn enough to better understand Anthony--as i have admired him for a long time. I--myself am in the midst of inner change, which makes me grumpy at times. I fully accept Bill's statement that zen is a-ethical. The problem I'm having, is that I simply don't want to live that way. I'm willing to sign on to some suffering as a result. For me-- equanimity is just not where I want to be right now. I want to be involved in the world in such a way that I will undoubtedly feel pain and hurt and frustration due to the people and problems I will be involved with. I'll try to follow-up with a comment to ED later.. Be well ~ k~ --- On Thu, 3/17/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] First Master of Dzogchen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 11:55 AM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: ED,   I have comments on the attached but will offer them later. But wanted to share this now..  Does this line-up with the teachers you had? k   Hi Kristy. While I certainly agree with the assessment that the inherently-existing ego-self is an illusion, I cannot help but wonder how many supposedly enlightened masters are just faking it. It is one thing to understand that the ego has no inherent existence, and quite another thing to live your life that way. But who knows? Maybe Kundalini yoga is the magic bullet. For that matter, I cannot help but wonder how many people who assert that everything is perfect in being what it is really react to people, places and things with perfect equanimity. Steve
Re: [Zen] Learning to See Consciously / ED
ED.. One final comment on this.. I think the attached comments correlate with my prior comment. They teach that the environment is simply not the focus. That, in fact, being distracted is equally relevant to the process. Or -- this is how I am reading this. Take care.. k Longchenpa makes an astonishing commentary on a portion from the Dzogchen Semde root tantra, the Kunje Gyalpo. I have included both Longchenpa's commentary and the relevant text from the Kunje Gyalpo. Quotes are from Longchenpa's The Precious Treasury of the Basic Space of Phenomena, published by Padma Publishing. My comments are beneath the KJG quotes below. Spontaneously present meditative stability, settled in its own place, is understood to be ongoing, like the flow of a river, without having to be deliberately cultivated. Within that context, everything arises as the true nature of phenomena, and so there is no error or obscuration, no dullness or agitation, no distraction or even the lack of it, because any object of distraction arises as the display of that nature. From the Kunje Gyalpo: To ignore what is inherent and seek afar for something else, eagerly trying to arouse the bliss that requires no effort... there is no greater debility than this. Undistracted meditative absorption is a stake that tethers one to reification. With respect to what is and always has been , there is no distraction, nothing to be lost. Undistracted meditative absorption seduces one with hope. Such are the Mahayana approaches based on either causes or results, which reveal what is provisional With respect to what is and always has been, there is no distraction, no loss. The state in which nothing need be done transcends all effort and achievement. Jackson: Notice above where Longchenpa says any object of distraction arises as the display of that nature. In other words, whatever you are distracted by is itself the display of Rigpa and so you are actually still noticing Rigpa's display. As an example, when you are simply present to the here and now observing the sky, while observing the sky, a strong distracting thought or image enters your mind. Suddenly you are no longer in the here and now noticing the sky, but rather you are observing this thought. This is in traditional Mahayana vehicles of meditation considered to be distraction and is taught to be avoided and corrected. One is taught to stay in here and now awareness. But Longchenpa is saying those distracting thoughts are themselves just as valid as the sky as objects of experience. Those thoughts are also occurring in the here and now, so when you are observing thoughts or images you are also fully in here and now presence. Both the sky and thoughts are equally Rigpa's pure display. So in this way it is understood that distraction is impossible. If this extremely subtle and vital point is understood, all effort at trying to maintain an undistracted state drops away. All experiences of every kind are equally the display of Rigpa. Then one may ask: Well, ok ... then what exactly do I do when practicing Dzogchen? Great question! But it must remain unanswered, or else the answer will be turned into a new something to do. In Dzogchen the notion that there is something to do or practice is considered an illness. You are already Rigpa Awareness, what would be the point of doing something in order to become what you already are?
Re: [Zen] Learning to See Consciously
Good Eve Mayka, )) Thank you for your thoughts here. I assumed you might respond first.. I welcome your comments when you offer them calmly and sincerely-- as they are here. I think Edgar is wise enough to recognize Esther's work, and its value-- or not--from his perspective.. Its not necessary that it seem meaningful to you-- or others. It was simply my offer to those who find some insight in it. Thanks- I actually care about you more than you'll ever realize. My best thoughs are always with you. Take care.. and thanks again.. Kristy 9off to sleep) --- On Sun, 3/13/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Learning to See Consciously To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 13, 2011, 12:11 AM K... I know that you don't welcome my responses but since your posting is send to the public zen forum then I consider to have all the right to give a response whether you like it or not and the same goes for you or anyone else. My critic to your easy: It's a well articulated English expressed on it but I'm afraid that has not much to do with zen. Nothing wrong with that as it was already expressed by some members the necessity of talking about any subject bringing entertainment to the mind and creating distraction in the forum. And everything is OK if that is what members want for as long as all that is not covered up and called zen. It's in here that I object to it. And I object because Science have nothing to do with zen. Science may help itself from zen but not on the other way round. You may like to know that Edgar has a group in which themes of Science are discussed. Edgar himself has written interesting articles in that field. Would you like to join his group and discuss your scientific and complementary findings?. Over there you will be meeting many people with your similar interests and having a beneficial feedback to your personal investigation in science. Take care Mayka --- On Sun, 13/3/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Learning to See Consciously To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 13 March, 2011, 1:14 Hi Edgar, ED, and all, Thanks Edgar, for posting this. Very interesting, and it helped me reflect back on my own experiences as they are still reflected today in my work and personal life. When ED wrote about stress as they relate to both expected and unexpected events -- like what has happened in Japan and New Zealand, I was struck by how place and 'stress influences our health and our healing. While Mel Mike are experiencing this first-hand, it is such events that make me think about how our perception literally and metaphorically shapes how we experience stress and how we heal from such events. I watched an interesting PBS program on the 'Science of Healing'. Having worked with stress manangement in many venues, I found many of the point made in the program to be particularly insightful. My own life is often filled with long hours and unpredictable circumstances, so I found it useful in guiding my inner awareness. The premise is Can place make you sick? If so-- can it also heal? This led to a trend in what is called evidenced-based design that is influencing hospital and care centers around the world. As Edgar's article points out-- how and what we see, creates our experience of it. For example, living in a structure that is near trees is associated with less psychological aggression, less violent behavior, greater neighborly association and mutual responsiveness. So the next question is, How does being with nature heal and /or soothe? A study done some time ago, (i don't recall the details), but it assigned patients who had the same type of surgery to rooms in a hospital. Some had a view of a brick wall from their window. The others had a view of a tree outside. They controlled for all other variables--(same nurses, food, temperature, and so on). The patients with the view of a tree left the hospital sooner, had fewer complications, required less pain medication, and other positive outcomes. While all our sensory skills are involved, (and this isn't meant to be sensory neuro-science here), but to examine how we perceive things --does indeed shape our experience of it, which does circle back to zen. So to discuss what we see-- we can break it down so we can test' what is the salient factors involved. Is it pattern, color, light and so on. There is a place in the brain that recognizes beautiful views. Known as the parahippocampal cortex. Recognition of a beautiful view cuts across all cultures and ages. This is where we are indeed--all one. When we look at a beautiful nature scene, initially --it is perceived (n the visual cortex), as a lined drawing--sort
Re: [Zen] Learning to See Consciously
Hi ED, I will re-read your comments on this later today, but this caught my eye now... Many Eastern Masters have asserted that their meditation practices train the mind to be blissed out, independent of environment. If I reduced my comment on this topic to one sentence, the theme would be: ...understanding how we perceive internal well-being, via our sensory experience. . If your comment above is so-- then they are training the student's state of being-ness, so as to allow for deeper awakening clarity. So by calming the physiology with postures and other environmental modifications, they induce a physical, mental and psychological state that is optimal. But this is precisely where the rubber meets the road If I change your physiology, I change your awareness. I think the point the Teachers in your comment above are making-- is that it is irrelevant whether or not someone is bi-polar, diabetic, depressed, an addict and so on. The student's awareness is authentic from their own individual ideosyncratic perspective. So what if their insulin levels create inner chaos? Their practice can help calm and soothe this imbalance to a degree, and at that point--their experience of awakening is still pure for them. If thats so-- fine. I simply disagree that its the correct path to follow. I think there are better options. But whatever floats their boat-- is fine with me;) I wonder what those Eastern Masters would do with the guy who hung a sign on the gate to his ranch-- NO TRESSPASSINGunless you have REALLY big tits ??? Thanks, Kristy Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (130) Recent Activity: New Members 1 Visit Your Group Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! MARKETPLACE Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. Find useful articles and helpful tips on living with Fibromyalgia. Visit the Fibromyalgia Zone today! Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .
Re: [Zen] Monkey Face
*bows* I saw this.. and am now wondering if Chris could program software to solve koans? Like this age-regression software so we truly know what our face was like before we were born... k on the monkey’s face a monkey face. —Basho Bruce Lambson The haiku above was written by Basho and was sent to me to recently by a friend, so I thought I would share my thoughts on it with you. This morning I just laughed out loud about it while I was shaving and thinking about this funny little haiku. Of course, I know I’m the monkey, I see that goofy face everyday. This poem points directly to the heart of Zen, to my own heart, my own self, my own face. What a funny thing is my life. I don’t know how I got here, I don’t know where I’m going after this, but while I’m here I’m a witness to the spectacular display of life on earth. It’s all reflected in my monkey face, this face that is constantly changing and yet still uniquely, perfectly mine. Dogen Zenji said, “to study the Buddha Way is to study the self.” So, I study the self, my self, my heart, my face. I’m very attached to my face. But what am I really attached to? I can call it a face but it’s much more than that. It’s skin, eyes, nose, mouth, etc. I use it to communicate, to see, smell and taste the world. I twist it around in a million expressions to try and manipulate the world around me. I couldn’t survive very well without it. But no matter what I do with my face, I won’t live forever, and I won’t always be happy while I’m alive. I don't always like this face but it’s the only one I’ve got. Or is it? In Zen we talk about our Original Face. There’s a Zen Koan that asks, “Show me your Original Face before your parents were born.” How do I answer this question? What is that face? From the Big Mind work developed by Genpo Roshi, we can look at this koan using the Apex triangle. On the bottom left of the triangle, I see my regular physical face. This is the one I was born with. It’s temporary, impermanent, ever changing. The other day I saw a picture of my face when I was a baby and another when I was a teenager. Now I’m 58 and it looks quite a bit different. I put my picture into a software program that ages you and I’m telling you, you might not recognize me when I’m 88. This is the relative face. On the right side of the triangle is my Original Face. This is my absolute face, the one that has never changed and never will change. It is unborn and undying and is the face I share with all sentient beings throughout space and time. It’s the one that is reflected back to me in everything I see and experience. It’s the face of oneness. At the top of the triangle, the apex, is my True Face, the one which transcends and includes both my temporary, physical, relative face and my Original, Universal, Unborn Face. This really is my True Face, the face of my enlightened self, manifested in the world and in this body. When I deeply realize that my life is the combination of both faces, and that my true face is both temporary and permanent, universal and unique, then my monkey face laughs at my monkey face. And my monkey face cries for my monkey face, and for all the monkey faces of the world, because I see we are all truly one, both permanent and temporary, sharing our joys and sufferings as sentient beings in the mysterious and ungraspable reality of our life.
Re: [Zen] Five Poisons II
Ed -- The NIH has boosted their funding considerably since 1997 on integrative treatment models--to include such modalities as accupuncture and qi. Even corporate insurance companies are paying for accupuncture therapies now. I don't know the specifics, but I guess-timate that qi is being investigated as part of bio-feedback research or trials. Not sure though.. Anthony, There actually is a lot of science connecting emotions with the heart. Hostility, anger, sadness, grief and more, have correlated with cardiac events and cancer incidence. But I do understand the points you are making here which seem valid to me as well. Thanks for adding some history.. k --- On Sun, 3/13/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Five Poisons II To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 13, 2011, 5:25 PM Scientific investigation There have been a number of studies of qi, especially in the sense used by traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture. These studies have often been problematic, and are hard to compare to each other, as they lack a common nomenclature. Some studies claim to have been able to measure qi, or the effects of manipulating qi, such as through acupuncture, but the proposed existence of qi has been rejected by the scientific community. A United States National Institutes of Health consensus statement on acupuncture in 1997 noted that concepts such as qi are difficult to reconcile with contemporary biomedical information In 2007 the MD Anderson Cancer Center at the University of Texas published an article covering the concepts by which qi is believed to work and research into possible benefits for cancer patients. A review of clinical trials investigating the use of internal qigong for pain management found no convincing evidence that it was effective. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: JMJM, Excuse me for butting in after some pause. I agree with you that 'chi' is not an illusion. The routes of chi flowing in the human body can be tracked by modern science, using electro-resistance method. Chi can also be felt by long practicing. It cannot 'take care of itself'. On the other hand, I find it hard to agree with your statement that 'mind' is the false self, while 'heart', including feelings, sensations and awareness, is the true self. Feelings etc are part of the emotions, which are sometimes harmful. They are not scientifically associated with the heart. The misunderstanding dates back to Kumarajiwa more than a thousand years ago. When he translated 'citta', he found no better word in Chinese than the the character 'xin', for heart. In much later dates, the English language took 'mind' to represent 'citta'. So don't be mistaken, both 'heart' (except for the physical organ) and 'mind' are the same. I wonder how year teacher say in reference to the word 'mind'. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: Five Poisons II
Bill, Well then.. If they are no hidden meanings or secretive ideas-- then why didn't he just say that his teachings were available to all, and he expected nothing in return, beit praise or blame. Instead of metaphor...k --- On Sun, 3/13/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Five Poisons II To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 13, 2011, 8:12 PM ED, Such sayings or writings as these, including ALL koans, say exactly what they say - and no more. There are no hidden meanings in zen, nothing eclectic or secretive. 'Selling water by the river' means everything he was teaching his whole life was readily available to all - without him as intermediary. 'My labors have been wholly without merit.' means he acted without any thought or hope of merit. He just acted. No self, no karma, no merit, no blame - Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Master Sogaku Harada died at the age of ninety-one. At his funeral service hung a piece of calligraphy written by himself: For forty years I have been selling water by the bank of a river. Ho ho ho. My labors have been wholly without merit. What did Master Sogaku Harada mean? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote:
Re: [Zen] Re: Five Poisons II
*chuckles* Touché A good week to all..Take care Mike:) Kristy --- On Sun, 3/13/11, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Five Poisons II To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 13, 2011, 10:32 PM Because what he said is much funnier. True zen laughs often. On Mar 13, 2011 9:30 PM, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: Bill, Well then.. If they are no hidden meanings or secretive ideas-- then why didn't he just say that his teachings were available to all, and he expected nothing in return, beit praise or blame. Instead of metaphor...k --- On Sun, 3/13/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Five Poisons II To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 13, 2011, 8:12 PM ED, Such sayings or writings as these, including ALL koans, say exactly what they say -...
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Good luck to you Mayka.. In all your thoughts here, and my best thoughts are with you and your family. If you ever need help. Just lets us know. :) Take care)).. Kristy :) --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 2:09 AM Krsity: You must forgive me but I have never been particularly much versed in Psychologist, therapist etc. I don't even believe much in any of that. On the other hand is good that is also available because there is a larger number of people who are not prepare yet to receive the simplicity of the dharma. For instance, The sister I have who suffers from cancer is getting benefit from the TNH dharma through her own therapy group. My sister doesn't know all that comes from TNH. My sister is not ready to receive the dharma from TNH in its purity but she's more opened to get it through the reassurance of the health service. I do believe that the dharma received by TNH as first initial introduction to zen can restore all the well being and health in one at all levels. And this is not propaganda as I'm talking about myself and hundreds of people in the world including soldiers who were constricted to kill in wars and many other types of human suffering. Thanks for all the contribution you've made to the forum in connection with rape. It was also interesting though couldn't understand much all its contents, the contribution from Edgar as a male talking. Mayka --- On Thu, 24/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 24 February, 2011, 21:52 Mayka, I have answered multiple times.. you just are listening within. If someone, myself included, is in this situation.. its obvious what I--and most would do. I'm a health care professional, licensed behavioral scientist and therapist, married to an M.D. I would see that they receive the full range of medical and therapeutic services, first. I'd report the incident with as much evidence as possible. I'd follow through on counseling and medical advice. I'd assess my environment to determine if I , or they need a change of venue for security or emotional healing. I would be vigilant in assisting law-enforcement and SVU officials in identifying the assailant. Need i go on? These are routine and common sense. The discussion has been about the pathology of rapists, and how to best deal with them--in an enlightened and post-modern environment. Cutting off their balls eliminates a symptom. We were discussing how to cure the disease. My last post on this! ~k~ --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 1:50 PM Audrey: Have you noticed that anyone answered the questions: 1- What would you do if your mother, daughter, sister, niece, girlfriend were rape? 2 - Is there anyone on this forum who has raped someone?/P And yet the thread about sex offenders carries on!. But all that is pure mental gimnasticks as there has not been any answer first to any of this questions. Only ED said something even when he was joking about it. Whatever is said is as pure talking in the coffe bar. Including mine of course!. Mayka --- On Thu, 24/2/11, audreydc1983 audreydc1...@yahoo.com wrote: From: audreydc1983 audreydc1...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 24 February, 2011, 20:15 She cares nothing about the politics. Neither do I. Although, I'm incredulous of the concept of rape culture. No culture is immune to the phenomenon of rape - so is EVERY culture rape culture? I never got that one. :/ I do not believe rapists should be forced to be castrated - but I would definitely support those who decided, for the public good (because they might rape again, and wish not to harm anyone else) to do so voluntarily. I apologize deeply for opening this can of worms. You may not believe me, but I was a bit surprised that it has garnered so much attention so far. I don't wish to alienate anyone on this list. And ED, I really do want to say Thank you for sharing the article and your thoughts on the subject. It really gives me something to think about. I am delighted that this forum encourages free exchange of ideas. ~Audrey --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Audrey, Which sentiment(s) of Maria do you agree with? ~ED
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Bill.. Amen. So much of this has been nonsense. Thanks.. k --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 3:04 AM Edgar and Kristy, I'll jump in again just to say that I don't think sex is that big a driver for men in general. It's not for me and it's not for most of the men I know. It's certainly not enough of a drive to make me want to go out and force myself on someone. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Edgar,  I already knew that was what you meant. I understand that, and its true in many cases. But as I said, there are other opportunities for sexual satisfaction ourside of marriage, and many use them.  My point is-- this is not a one-dimensional causal relationship. But I know that you recognize this.  Have great day! ~ k~ --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 12:25 PM  Hi Kristy, You misinterpret my words. Most western wives don't satisfy their man's deep natural psychological needs. That's what's important to inhibit rape. Just the fact that they provide boring sex simply isn't enough to keep a man from looking elsewhere. Edgar On Feb 24, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Kristy McClain wrote:  Edgar,  Your conclusions here are simply not accurate. I agreed that sex is one of the factors t that motivate rape. But being sexually satisfied does not prevent rapes from occuring. Many, many rapists are married, and have sexual opportunities with other partners as well. Men have the option of seeking a sexual submissive, yet that does not influence the rape incidence.  Your comments HERE do offer some insight:  they rape out of unsatisfied desires. If those desires are satisfied they would never become a rapist. But even a 'normal' man, under enough duress and unsatisfied desire may become a rapist given a situation  This is not a rape forum, nor do I have the time to access the accurate research data to continue this discussion here, but I agree that men often rape due to a combination of unfulfilled needs, their own narcississtic injuries, bio-chemical and psycho-dynamic processes, in addition to a desire for sexual release.  While I agree that it is an evolutionary trait, that doesn't mean that we must accept it as is. It means that we have an obligation to work with these people, with a compassionate heart, in order to better understand how to re-direct their impulses, and find emotional and physical resolutions in a peaceful way.  Take care,  Kristy --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 5:00 AM  Hi Kristy, I said voluntarily satisfy, not be a sex slave In other words if a man is loved and his desires satisfied by a woman who loves him, he doesn't have the need to become a rapist. I think the hidden message here is that men aren't born rapists, they rape out of unsatisfied desires. If those desires are satisfied they would never become a rapist. But even a 'normal' man, under enough duress and unsatisfied desire may become a rapist given a situation in which he thinks he can get away with it. Edgar On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:26 PM, Kristy McClain wrote:  Edgar,  I agree fully with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, but I disagree with part of what you say in the first, when you suggest that the cure for a rapist, is to have a willing partner to satisfy and indulge his sexual appetite and fantasiey, whenever he desires it. While i acknowledge that rape is indeed motivated in part, by sexual urges, it is not the complete picture. I don't know if you followed the earlier thread wherein I discussed D/s and voluntary sexual submission /slavery?  Having a sexual servant who provides fulfillment for every fantasy, no matter how dark or violent, does not seem to impact the rape stats, or the cases for SVU units. So there is more to this. This area is not my range of study or experience, but clearly, there are other factors.  Thanks,  Kristy --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 1:56 PM  Kristy, Good objective comments. Rape fantasies are indeed common among women, though
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Bill, Its a bit more complicated than this.. but yes--you are correct. Edgar's views' voice a deep frustration some have, but they do not lead to rape. While I feel the topic is not relevant here, I welcome any further comments on this from Edgar--but better said privately, I think... ~ k~ --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 3:01 AM Edgar and Kristy, This isn't a rape forum, but for what it's worth I don't beleive that most rapists rape because of unsatisfied sexual desires. That might be a factor, but I beleive rapists rape because they have no empathy or regard for others. They don't see them as other people. They see them as objects, and can feel free to use them however they wish. Rape is just one of the things they can do to them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Edgar,  Your conclusions here are simply not accurate. I agreed that sex is one of the factors t that motivate rape. But being sexually satisfied does not prevent rapes from occuring. Many, many rapists are married, and have sexual opportunities with other partners as well. Men have the option of seeking a sexual submissive, yet that does not influence the rape incidence.  Your comments HERE do offer some insight:  they rape out of unsatisfied desires. If those desires are satisfied they would never become a rapist. But even a 'normal' man, under enough duress and unsatisfied desire may become a rapist given a situation  This is not a rape forum, nor do I have the time to access the accurate research data to continue this discussion here, but I agree that men often rape due to a combination of unfulfilled needs, their own narcississtic injuries, bio-chemical and psycho-dynamic processes, in addition to a desire for sexual release.  While I agree that it is an evolutionary trait, that doesn't mean that we must accept it as is. It means that we have an obligation to work with these people, with a compassionate heart, in order to better understand how to re-direct their impulses, and find emotional and physical resolutions in a peaceful way.  Take care,  Kristy --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 5:00 AM  Hi Kristy, I said voluntarily satisfy, not be a sex slave In other words if a man is loved and his desires satisfied by a woman who loves him, he doesn't have the need to become a rapist. I think the hidden message here is that men aren't born rapists, they rape out of unsatisfied desires. If those desires are satisfied they would never become a rapist. But even a 'normal' man, under enough duress and unsatisfied desire may become a rapist given a situation in which he thinks he can get away with it. Edgar On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:26 PM, Kristy McClain wrote:  Edgar,  I agree fully with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, but I disagree with part of what you say in the first, when you suggest that the cure for a rapist, is to have a willing partner to satisfy and indulge his sexual appetite and fantasiey, whenever he desires it. While i acknowledge that rape is indeed motivated in part, by sexual urges, it is not the complete picture. I don't know if you followed the earlier thread wherein I discussed D/s and voluntary sexual submission /slavery?  Having a sexual servant who provides fulfillment for every fantasy, no matter how dark or violent, does not seem to impact the rape stats, or the cases for SVU units. So there is more to this. This area is not my range of study or experience, but clearly, there are other factors.  Thanks,  Kristy --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 1:56 PM  Kristy, Good objective comments. Rape fantasies are indeed common among women, though of course these are invariably about really appealing lusty guys who won't take no for an answer rather than men that the woman isn't attracted to as may well be the case in actual rapes. The cure for rape is of course for the potential rapist to have a woman who satisfies all his desires voluntarily. If this is the case he has no need to go elsewhere on any terms. Unfortunately few women know how to provide this to a man. It's not just about providing ordinary sex, but fulfilling his deepest psychological needs as a man as well. Throughout
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Mayka, I was raped. I think you have some work to do on empathy yourself. If you want to help your sister.. help yourself first. I care about you-- but I admit--you make it difficult sometimes.. Kristy (Before you have a impulse for a defensive reply--hit delete). --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 3:18 AM Bill; I suppose you or anyone can't give views about an event thas not taken place in one life. Only the ones and closed to the ones who were victims can share that kind of experience and how they reacted in front of it. Just for the seek of mental exercise: 1 - Visualice yourself being raped and everything that happens in you. Just acknowledge them. Your reaction ect. Give a description of them. 2 - What is the first thing that comes to your mind if any of the closest ones to you from your family were raped?. What is the next thing?. Give a description of your mind reaction. Visualice that and acknowledge what you're experiencing. This might have been a more revealing way of seeing what there is really in one in a situation like that. Mayka --- On Fri, 25/2/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 25 February, 2011, 9:47 Mayka, My remarks were a swipe at religions in general, but specifically Christianity who on one hand preach forgiveness (New Testament) and on the other hand demand retribution (Old Testament). I'll gladly give you my views but this thread has become so unraveled I'm not sure just exactly on what you want my views. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordeloto@... wrote: Bill:  oh yeah, and cut off their penis while you're at it'. Mayka: What does your comment above means?. Did you mean as an act or revenge, judgemental...or what?. If the comment comes because of the idea of castrating a rapist...I stick to it. Though not as passionately as yesterday, yes there will be need to study well the case. All measures are relative nonetheless castration is the only one I can think of for the safety of women. What are your views here?  Mayka --- On Thu, 24/2/11, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: From: Bill! BillSmart@... Subject: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 24 February, 2011, 5:34  ED, I couldn't answer for all who have experienced satori. They would all have their own answers, and some perhaps no answer. Experiencing satori (realization of Buddha Mind) does not automatically give everyone the same values. That's the job of a religion. Religions built up around someone's satori experience (like Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and probably Islam)do tend to unify and then codify values. They would certainly have something to say about this - like 'forgive them - oh yeah, and cut off their penis while you're at it'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Steve and Bill, what might a woman/man who had realized kensho-satori have to say about punishment for rape? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordeloto@ wrote: The best to slow down the high rate of raping in the world is to take the justice in one hands and cut the sexual organs of the rapist so that no more women are raped by the same rapist.. Raping is one of those things that makes really furious to all women in the world.
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Bill, I want her comments stopped now-- as a moderator. I am fwd them to yahoo, and my attorneys. There is a limit.. I appreciate your position. Contact me privately. Thanks. Kristy --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 3:49 AM Krsity: Could you kindly illustrate me what are you talking about?. Thanks Mayka --- On Fri, 25/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 25 February, 2011, 10:39 Mayka, I was raped. I think you have some work to do on empathy yourself. If you want to help your sister.. help yourself first. I care about you-- but I admit--you make it difficult sometimes.. Kristy (Before you have a impulse for a defensive reply--hit delete). --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 3:18 AM Bill; I suppose you or anyone can't give views about an event thas not taken place in one life. Only the ones and closed to the ones who were victims can share that kind of experience and how they reacted in front of it. Just for the seek of mental exercise: 1 - Visualice yourself being raped and everything that happens in you. Just acknowledge them. Your reaction ect. Give a description of them. 2 - What is the first thing that comes to your mind if any of the closest ones to you from your family were raped?. What is the next thing?. Give a description of your mind reaction. Visualice that and acknowledge what you're experiencing. This might have been a more revealing way of seeing what there is really in one in a situation like that. Mayka --- On Fri, 25/2/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 25 February, 2011, 9:47 Mayka, My remarks were a swipe at religions in general, but specifically Christianity who on one hand preach forgiveness (New Testament) and on the other hand demand retribution (Old Testament). I'll gladly give you my views but this thread has become so unraveled I'm not sure just exactly on what you want my views. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordeloto@... wrote: Bill:  oh yeah, and cut off their penis while you're at it'. Mayka: What does your comment above means?. Did you mean as an act or revenge, judgemental...or what?. If the comment comes because of the idea of castrating a rapist...I stick to it. Though not as passionately as yesterday, yes there will be need to study well the case. All measures are relative nonetheless castration is the only one I can think of for the safety of women. What are your views here?  Mayka --- On Thu, 24/2/11, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: From: Bill! BillSmart@... Subject: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 24 February, 2011, 5:34  ED, I couldn't answer for all who have experienced satori. They would all have their own answers, and some perhaps no answer. Experiencing satori (realization of Buddha Mind) does not automatically give everyone the same values. That's the job of a religion. Religions built up around someone's satori experience (like Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and probably Islam)do tend to unify and then codify values. They would certainly have something to say about this - like 'forgive them - oh yeah, and cut off their penis while you're at it'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Steve and Bill, what might a woman/man who had realized kensho-satori have to say about punishment for rape? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordeloto@ wrote: The best to slow down the high rate of raping in the world is to take the justice in one hands and cut the sexual organs of the rapist so that no more women are raped by the same rapist.. Raping is one of those things that makes really furious to all women in the world.
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Bill, All comments from Maria Lopez' address /s are auto-fwd to my attorneys now. She continues to comment though I have requested formally that no further comments are made public. Bill.. This is serious. I have put up with enough from her. I will file charges. Kristy --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 4:08 AM Kristy : Please calm down. Please notice that posting was a conversation between Bill and myself. I don't understand what I may have said to bring in you such a reaction. Mayka --- On Fri, 25/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 25 February, 2011, 11:00 Bill, I want her comments stopped now-- as a moderator. I am fwd them to yahoo, and my attorneys. There is a limit.. I appreciate your position. Contact me privately. Thanks. Kristy --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 3:49 AM Krsity: Could you kindly illustrate me what are you talking about?. Thanks Mayka --- On Fri, 25/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 25 February, 2011, 10:39 Mayka, I was raped. I think you have some work to do on empathy yourself. If you want to help your sister.. help yourself first. I care about you-- but I admit--you make it difficult sometimes.. Kristy (Before you have a impulse for a defensive reply--hit delete). --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 3:18 AM Bill; I suppose you or anyone can't give views about an event thas not taken place in one life. Only the ones and closed to the ones who were victims can share that kind of experience and how they reacted in front of it. Just for the seek of mental exercise: 1 - Visualice yourself being raped and everything that happens in you. Just acknowledge them. Your reaction ect. Give a description of them. 2 - What is the first thing that comes to your mind if any of the closest ones to you from your family were raped?. What is the next thing?. Give a description of your mind reaction. Visualice that and acknowledge what you're experiencing. This might have been a more revealing way of seeing what there is really in one in a situation like that. Mayka --- On Fri, 25/2/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 25 February, 2011, 9:47 Mayka, My remarks were a swipe at religions in general, but specifically Christianity who on one hand preach forgiveness (New Testament) and on the other hand demand retribution (Old Testament). I'll gladly give you my views but this thread has become so unraveled I'm not sure just exactly on what you want my views. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordeloto@... wrote: Bill:  oh yeah, and cut off their penis while you're at it'. Mayka: What does your comment above means?. Did you mean as an act or revenge, judgemental...or what?. If the comment comes because of the idea of castrating a rapist...I stick to it. Though not as passionately as yesterday, yes there will be need to study well the case. All measures are relative nonetheless castration is the only one I can think of for the safety of women. What are your views here?  Mayka --- On Thu, 24/2/11, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: From: Bill! BillSmart@... Subject: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 24 February, 2011, 5:34  ED, I couldn't answer for all who have experienced satori. They would all have their own answers, and some perhaps no answer. Experiencing satori (realization of Buddha Mind) does not automatically give everyone the same values. That's the job of a religion. Religions built up around someone's satori experience (like Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and probably Islam)do tend to unify and then codify values. They would certainly have something to say about this - like 'forgive them - oh yeah, and cut off their penis while you're at it'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?/ Chris
Hey Chris, Glad your sesshi went well. Let me state a few things: 1. Most mail readers can allow you to send all comments from a given email address directly to the trash. I am periodically tempted to do this with some people that irritate me habitually, but of course the great way is easy for those who do not pick and choose., I recognize this. My sister is a tele-communications attorney, and advised the same. I've taken care of it. The report was filed, and I'm told they review it--beginning with monitoring group activity here for 90 days. i'm sure it will be fine. Thanks for sharing your personal story. You have always inspired me. :) Kristy
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Anthony Chris, I remember the first time I visite the Holocaust Museum in D.C. I watched a short film of two Jewish men scheduled for execution. One man said how grateful he was to their captors. The other, shocked at hearing this, asked Why? The man replied, I'm thankful I am not them. I know in my own life, trauma is something that offers a gift. It guides your heart . I have experienced many of the same feelings--and more, as I have had many different types of trauma in my life. I suppose thats why I never use the word victim, as it is such a powerless state of being. One can choose a response that can help us heal or hurt. Trust was always difficult for me, and I have to say that my husband has helped me the most with this. He never lies to me. Not even white lies that might be for my happiness, like a surprise birthday party. He knows that I would rather have the truth--as he knows the truth to be. Our communication is so tender and kind as a result. I've noticed that we are very thoughtful in what we do say, because we don't want to hurt or hide anything, so we are lovingly respectful to one another as a result. Our friendships are the same, and I am so grateful to have them in my life. Well.. back to work.. Thanks, Kristy --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 12:56 PM Chris, I envy you being able to overcome the mentality of a weak victim. You seem to be right in saying a large number of people have been sexually abused in all kinds of ways. So life is really like riding a hang glider in a storm. However, that is not an answer to the question whether a Buddha will harm others. A Buddha is an ideal person that is incapable of harming living beings. If they do, they are not Buddhas. On the other hand, they can ride a hang glider safely. Anthony --- On Sat, 26/2/11, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 26 February, 2011, 12:42 AM Wow, what a lot of typing has been taking place! Let me state a few things: 1. Most mail readers can allow you to send all comments from a given email address directly to the trash. I am periodically tempted to do this with some people that irritate me habitually, but of course the great way is easy for those who do not pick and choose. 2. I was raped, or violently sexually abused as a small child, and then threatened with death if I told anyone. It has taken a lot of therapy and some hard work on my own to transform this experience from a severe limitation to just a fact of my past. I cannot really enjoy mushrooms with out nearly choking and feeling tinges of abuse again, but that is generally an avoidable consequence. I am probably a bit more open to the reality of great suffering in the people around me, and I when I am feeling anxious, I find comfort in certain things that are pretty common in survivors, but I no longer believe I am worthless or deserving of mistreatment, which were effects that caused me some great trouble for a long time. The brain given a choice between great evil exists in the universe and one doesn't have a way to escape it vs. I have deserved some great punishment and if I act differently I will be safe will often skip over the first truth and fix on the false, but reassuring, latter statement. But with a healing environment, love, and determination, recovery is fairly straightforward. And I would not trade places with my abuser for one minute. Violent people, that I've seen, suffer from great blindness to others as well as to them selves. It is a feminist axiom that the people with less power in a given relationship are able to see more of the reality of the relationship clearly than the people with more power. Rape is a horrendous thing, as is the systemic devaluing of the powerless, and the equation of might with right. If you believe the statistics, some large chunk of people in the US at least have been sexually victimized at one point or another. Those people are not all ruined; most of us are productive members of society, chopping wood and carrying water. We may have a curious aversion for or be drawn to dramatic revenge movies, but we are well able to march on in the current moments. 3. There is absolutely no point in imaging what you would do if you were raped or someone you love is raped. That is precisely the sort of self-flagellation in the imaginary world that zen can free us from. Not that I can stop you if you like such a use of your time, but the salvific attitude is a pragmatic one. As far as a Buddha harming others, I think the correct perspective is that we harm each other all the time. We cannot live
Re: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others?(to ED/Mayka/list)
JM, I am truly delighted that you feel this way. I will arrange for you to share your practice and this insight with a sex-offenders group in your country. I know they will welcome the idea that they--too, are part of the One, and do not need tp fear those who would like to castrate them. Let me know.. I can make some calls.. Kristy --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others?(to ED/Mayka/list) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 9:19 AM If I may add... Only when we witness the emptiness in all words, could we then embrace all words. Then and only then we are whole and be one with the One. Thank you for your time for reading this. JMJM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 2/24/2011 8:07 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: If I may add some perspectives to Mel's observation below We all know the basic Buddhist practice is simply precepts, meditation, wisdom. It simply means if we can not surpass our habits -- habitual thoughts, habitual life style (the first practice), if we do not meditate (the second practice), then there is no wisdom. Buddhist labeled this state of being, for those who do not practice, always judging, categorizing, using their mind instead of their heart, reincarnation. ...besides, knowledge is at best second hand. What we see or hear are just emptiness... (Seung Sahn). Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 2/24/2011 5:12 AM, Mel wrote: It is impossible to force change on anyone, ED. However, please do understand that I wouldn't have been the first, nor will I be the last to take note of openly dualistic postings from those outside of the path, and those who aspire to the Zen way of life itself are bound to notice such posts eventually. For better or worse, you may hear or read things you don't want to hear, or read about. That's just the way it is. That's the bad news, but the good news is that you're probably keeping the group alive by your very words of what must be quite extensive knowledge about many things...odd as they may be to some of us. Read Mayka's first reply to Steve's posting concerning this current thread. It's quite eye-opening. Nothing academic...just simple, clear-headeness..possible dualistic translation: BIG MIND Just as they have self-confessed atheists and other 'sinners' in biblical forums...we on the other hand have academics like yourself who wish to work out Zen without the experience. That's all well and good if that suits you. As I said ED, nobody can force change on you, and if that bothers them(you can include me on that list if I'm guilty), then they themselves are breaking faith with the old prince himself, and what he aspired to and taught Buddha be praised Mel --- On Thu, 24/2/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, 24 February, 2011, 1:31 AM Hello Mel, Are you possessed by an irresistible need to have me change my ways to make you happy? ;-) Best regards, --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mel gunnar19632000@... wrote: MEL: Yes, but the words DELIBERATE and INTENTIONAL are open to interpretation (..ED, no need to post quotes from the dictionary or Wikipedia. I am interested only in experiences, not academic discussions..)
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Edgar, Your conclusions here are simply not accurate. I agreed that sex is one of the factors t that motivate rape. But being sexually satisfied does not prevent rapes from occuring. Many, many rapists are married, and have sexual opportunities with other partners as well. Men have the option of seeking a sexual submissive, yet that does not influence the rape incidence. Your comments HERE do offer some insight: they rape out of unsatisfied desires. If those desires are satisfied they would never become a rapist. But even a 'normal' man, under enough duress and unsatisfied desire may become a rapist given a situation This is not a rape forum, nor do I have the time to access the accurate research data to continue this discussion here, but I agree that men often rape due to a combination of unfulfilled needs, their own narcississtic injuries, bio-chemical and psycho-dynamic processes, in addition to a desire for sexual release. While I agree that it is an evolutionary trait, that doesn't mean that we must accept it as is. It means that we have an obligation to work with these people, with a compassionate heart, in order to better understand how to re-direct their impulses, and find emotional and physical resolutions in a peaceful way. Take care, Kristy --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 5:00 AM Hi Kristy, I said voluntarily satisfy, not be a sex slave In other words if a man is loved and his desires satisfied by a woman who loves him, he doesn't have the need to become a rapist. I think the hidden message here is that men aren't born rapists, they rape out of unsatisfied desires. If those desires are satisfied they would never become a rapist. But even a 'normal' man, under enough duress and unsatisfied desire may become a rapist given a situation in which he thinks he can get away with it. Edgar On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:26 PM, Kristy McClain wrote: Edgar, I agree fully with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, but I disagree with part of what you say in the first, when you suggest that the cure for a rapist, is to have a willing partner to satisfy and indulge his sexual appetite and fantasiey, whenever he desires it. While i acknowledge that rape is indeed motivated in part, by sexual urges, it is not the complete picture. I don't know if you followed the earlier thread wherein I discussed D/s and voluntary sexual submission /slavery? Having a sexual servant who provides fulfillment for every fantasy, no matter how dark or violent, does not seem to impact the rape stats, or the cases for SVU units. So there is more to this. This area is not my range of study or experience, but clearly, there are other factors. Thanks, Kristy --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 1:56 PM Kristy, Good objective comments. Rape fantasies are indeed common among women, though of course these are invariably about really appealing lusty guys who won't take no for an answer rather than men that the woman isn't attracted to as may well be the case in actual rapes. The cure for rape is of course for the potential rapist to have a woman who satisfies all his desires voluntarily. If this is the case he has no need to go elsewhere on any terms. Unfortunately few women know how to provide this to a man. It's not just about providing ordinary sex, but fulfilling his deepest psychological needs as a man as well. Throughout history rape has been quite common and everyone of us is almost certainly the descendant of one or more rapes in their ancestry. From an evolutionary perspective rape is quite natural and is an excellent strategy to maximize one's genetic legacy - if one can get away with it. As ED's article points out this is usually only the case in when the woman in question is not under the protection of male family members as is usually the case in traditional societies. In modern western societies the state has usurped male protection of women which makes them more vulnerable to rape. Men were given a very strong natural desire to have sex with attractive women at almost any cost if they can manage it. The genes that give that impetus have been strengthened because such men tend to leave more descendants carrying those genes. Every man has at least some desire to rape women he can't get otherwise though that desire is usually tempered by an equally strong survival instinct. Men of course have strong rape fantasies as well. These often take the form of the woman he rapes realizing how wonderful he is and falling head over heels in love with him because he
Re: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Thanks, Mel. I'll spend some time with your comments.. k --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au wrote: From: Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au Subject: Re: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 1:57 AM Hello Steve and everyone Just my thoughts --- On Wed, 23/2/11, eugnostos2000 eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: STEVE: --snip--the recent discussions concerning zen, Zen and ethics with interest. IMO, it is a bit of a Red Herring to stay fixated on sexual ethics which even non-Zennists will often regard as a subjective muddle. MEL: I am wondering myself how the above topics came into the forum. If one has problems with his/her Zen gathering or group which cannot be resolved, the he/she should leave. Better to be alone than suffer in undesirable company to no end STEVE: Can a Buddha deliberately harm others? MEL: Yes, but the words DELIBERATE and INTENTIONAL are open to interpretation (..ED, no need to post quotes from the dictionary or Wikipedia. I am interested only in experiences, not academic discussions..) STEVE: Now doubtless there are some here that will say that zen has nothing to do with Buddha, etc. etc., MEL: I have heard that, but it's hardly important in this day and age whether such is true, or false. This may be regarded by some conservative Buddhists as heresy, but I openly admit that the Zen beliefs I follow are basically modern interpretations from what must have been its ancient origins. By the end of the day, it's not going to matter at all. The only thing that counts is making choices and living by them..and with them My thoughts for all: I don't know what the old prince said. I wasn't there when he uttered all sorts of things. For all I know, Zen was(or is) probably one big lie...in relation to the old man himself. Who knows? On top of that, maybe the man wasn't as virtuous as many Asians had been saying for so many centuries. Is there anyone alive today who knew him personally and had spent much quality time with him? A so-called Buddhist would point out all sorts of holy writings or historical data to me to prove or disprove many a Buddhist concept, or idea. Again, what counts by the end of the day is personal choice, and living with that choice. Academic is good, but with limitations just as all else. It is up to the individual whether to accept any interpretation, or not STEVE: but it is a fact that Zen arose within Buddhism as a way to become aware of our own Buddha-Dhatu in a direct way, unencumbered by intellectualism. And of course Zennists will assert that this direct pointing to the heart of humanity goes directly back to Gotama himself. MEL: I can relate to that, and this sounds like something I had been discussing with a co-worker lately. However, and especially when face-to-face with non-Buddhists(especially those holding Semitic beliefs), I often cut the conversation by repeating the above...telling them that my beliefs are modern interpretations of possible but unproven ancient origins...and then I walk away. Experience had taught me that this tactic saves me a lot of time from useless arguments and personal attacks. I am currently trying hard to learn and be accustomed to avoiding religious and spiritual discussions or issues in everyday life. It is however, a different story when in the company of others of similar beliefs STEVE: So the question remains. Can a fully realized Buddha deliberately choose to cause harm? MEL: I thought about this and I asked myself.did Imperial Japanese troops deliberately went on a genocidal rampage.or...did the Buddha within led the way, all the way? Was it the Buddha(or Tao?) within that delivered multiple and bloody 'gyaku tsuki' hits to a drunk's cranial area as I was on top of him with one of my arms and both legs pinned? Or, was it my 'deliberateness'? I remember from my youth when my mind/thoughts were absolutely clear as I chased after someone with a harmful piece of wood. Who's responsible for such things? The Buddha? Tao? Hard to say, I say. It obviously didn't save the military survivors from the aftermath(Tokyo trials, etc), but the said Imperial troops above probably thought they were just going with the flow. Is this flow...the Buddha? Buddha in action? Who knows? There certainly would have been dualistic thoughts on these we recognize today as war criminals as they raped and regarded certain nations such as the Chinese and Filipinos as beneath the level of dogs...but does that dualism exist whenever any of them raises the katana with a clear head to decapitate one prisoner's head after another? These criminals were lead to believe that they descended from the old samurai and that their lord is the Emperor himself. A clear head(BigMind?) to kill...I can relate to that. How about rape? That involves sexual desire.
Re: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Anthony, You are back to the striving-thing. How can one strive , and be in just THIS at the same time? In my view-- you can't. Please enlighten me... k --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 7:14 AM Steve, I am not an enlightened man. But IMO, enlightenment without compassion is not full enlightenment, or a 'distorted enlightenment', which is not worth striving for. Anthony --- On Wed, 23/2/11, eugnostos2000 eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: eugnostos2000 eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 23 February, 2011, 1:26 PM Hello. I have been following the recent discussions concerning zen, Zen and ethics with interest. IMO, it is a bit of a Red Herring to stay fixated on sexual ethics which even non-Zennists will often regard as a subjective muddle. So let me ask this. Can a Buddha deliberately harm others? Now doubtless there are some here that will say that zen has nothing to do with Buddha, etc. etc., but it is a fact that Zen arose within Buddhism as a way to become aware of our own Buddha-Dhatu in a direct way, unencumbered by intellectualism. And of course Zennists will assert that this direct pointing to the heart of humanity goes directly back to Gotama himself. So the question remains. Can a fully realized Buddha deliberately choose to cause harm? The BuddhaDharma has always been concerned, not just with Great Wisdom, but also with Great Compassion. Is this Great Compassion merely another conceptual delusion or is it a fundamental feature of Enlightenment itself? Steve
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Mayka, Not that its any of your business.. but yes-- I have been. My economics professor broke into my apartment and did just that. Satisfied? Don't even think you can lecture me about how or 'what to feel, or not feel... k --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 11:50 AM K... Have you ever been raped for real?. What would you do if your daughter, sister, mother, niece... will be raped?. Are you sure that approach will be so understanding?. It's terrible to see in all ways the state of a woman who has been raped specially if the woman is very young. The psychological wounds of some raped women can at times be so bad that some women commit suicide after a while. I saved the life of one this women reacting after the years being raped here in Edinburgh. She has never been again the same girl as before being raped. It's precisely because one is one with everything else that a rapist needs to be castrated at the very least. And as for women sexual fantasies of being raped was out of line. A comment like this only can encourage more a rapist to keep going. Mayka --- On Wed, 23/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 23 February, 2011, 18:22 Edgar is indeed correct. It can be comforting to believe that the incentive is power--hatred of women and the like. But the evidence, and the report from rapists themselves, is that it is indeed about sex. Though other factors co-exist. 10 years ago, i was moderating a rape-fantasy discussion board, as part of a training exercise. A clinical psychologist in NY was running a group for male sex offenders who were in prison. We had many discussions on this, and the consenses was in agreement with this article. The psychologist running the group was--himself drawn to the act of rape as a sexual drive. He told me that the best gift his wife gave him was the acceptance she offered him when he confessed this to her. She even offered to role-play a rape scene with him, but he refused. He told me that he felt it might get out of hand. Its easy to label these men as monsters as a means to deny their right to even exist. Brand them. Shun them. But they do exist, and have since the dawn of man. If we are all one, we can only hope to heal if everyone is included in the process. I may hate child abusers.. but I remember that more often than not, they were abused too. btw.. There are many, many females who have rape fantasies, as part of their erotic responses. Remember.. I recognize this is a polarizing topic. I'm not denying the experience rape has on unwilling females. I'm just offering another perspective because the only way to ever hope to prevent or heal the problem, is to look at it with a clear mirror. Edgar, What does the data show on rape when it is done in countries as part of geneocide? Kristy --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 8:08 AM Rape is primarily about satisfying sexual desire when it can't be achieved otherwise. Complete power over a woman can be a very strong aphrodisiac. Especially where violence or injury is involved it can also be combined with the man's desire for revenge against women for perceived psychological injury previously suffered at the hands of a woman or women in general by the rapist. Edgar On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:45 AM, ED wrote: Hi Audrey - Yours is an assertion that conforms to the usual feminist position. It may be true or it may not. Has the truth of the assertion been confirmed by say neurophysiologists and neuropsychologists? Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, audreydc1983 audreydc1983@... wrote: I will beg to differ on one point: Rape has little to do with sexual desire. It is about power, control, and victimization. Those of us who believe sex is a natural product of lust, sexual desire, and love often will assume that rape, since it is a sexual act, is associated in some way with these feelings. This assumption couldn't be further from the truth. If there is any desire in rape, it is the desire to control/victimize. ~Audrey
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Mayka, I am nearly impossible to offend. You read too much into my comment. No problem.. k :) --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 12:07 PM K... Sorry to hear about it. I wasn't lecturing you but just giving a response to your posting. If you, myself or anybody else write something in the forum, then one also has to have the courage to handle the different responses. There was not intention of offense, though. Mayka --- On Wed, 23/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 23 February, 2011, 18:55 Mayka, Not that its any of your business.. but yes-- I have been. My economics professor broke into my apartment and did just that. Satisfied? Don't even think you can lecture me about how or 'what to feel, or not feel... k --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 11:50 AM K... Have you ever been raped for real?. What would you do if your daughter, sister, mother, niece... will be raped?. Are you sure that approach will be so understanding?. It's terrible to see in all ways the state of a woman who has been raped specially if the woman is very young. The psychological wounds of some raped women can at times be so bad that some women commit suicide after a while. I saved the life of one this women reacting after the years being raped here in Edinburgh. She has never been again the same girl as before being raped. It's precisely because one is one with everything else that a rapist needs to be castrated at the very least. And as for women sexual fantasies of being raped was out of line. A comment like this only can encourage more a rapist to keep going. Mayka --- On Wed, 23/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 23 February, 2011, 18:22 Edgar is indeed correct. It can be comforting to believe that the incentive is power--hatred of women and the like. But the evidence, and the report from rapists themselves, is that it is indeed about sex. Though other factors co-exist. 10 years ago, i was moderating a rape-fantasy discussion board, as part of a training exercise. A clinical psychologist in NY was running a group for male sex offenders who were in prison. We had many discussions on this, and the consenses was in agreement with this article. The psychologist running the group was--himself drawn to the act of rape as a sexual drive. He told me that the best gift his wife gave him was the acceptance she offered him when he confessed this to her. She even offered to role-play a rape scene with him, but he refused. He told me that he felt it might get out of hand. Its easy to label these men as monsters as a means to deny their right to even exist. Brand them. Shun them. But they do exist, and have since the dawn of man. If we are all one, we can only hope to heal if everyone is included in the process. I may hate child abusers.. but I remember that more often than not, they were abused too. btw.. There are many, many females who have rape fantasies, as part of their erotic responses. Remember.. I recognize this is a polarizing topic. I'm not denying the experience rape has on unwilling females. I'm just offering another perspective because the only way to ever hope to prevent or heal the problem, is to look at it with a clear mirror. Edgar, What does the data show on rape when it is done in countries as part of geneocide? Kristy --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 8:08 AM Rape is primarily about satisfying sexual desire when it can't be achieved otherwise. Complete power over a woman can be a very strong aphrodisiac. Especially where violence or injury is involved it can also be combined with the man's desire for revenge against women for perceived psychological injury previously suffered at the hands of a woman or women in general by the rapist. Edgar On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:45 AM, ED wrote: Hi Audrey - Yours is an assertion that conforms to the usual feminist position. It may be true or it may not. Has the truth of the assertion been confirmed by say neurophysiologists
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
*smiles* Sorry! In your last line, you said your comment was not meant to offend, and I was merely trying to assure you that it didn't! Sometimes internet exchanges are difficult to interpret accurately;) k --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 3:10 PM K... You lose me now. What do you mean?. Explain, please. Mayka --- On Wed, 23/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 23 February, 2011, 22:07 Mayka, I am nearly impossible to offend. You read too much into my comment. No problem.. k :) --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 12:07 PM K... Sorry to hear about it. I wasn't lecturing you but just giving a response to your posting. If you, myself or anybody else write something in the forum, then one also has to have the courage to handle the different responses. There was not intention of offense, though. Mayka --- On Wed, 23/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 23 February, 2011, 18:55 Mayka, Not that its any of your business.. but yes-- I have been. My economics professor broke into my apartment and did just that. Satisfied? Don't even think you can lecture me about how or 'what to feel, or not feel... k --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 11:50 AM K... Have you ever been raped for real?. What would you do if your daughter, sister, mother, niece... will be raped?. Are you sure that approach will be so understanding?. It's terrible to see in all ways the state of a woman who has been raped specially if the woman is very young. The psychological wounds of some raped women can at times be so bad that some women commit suicide after a while. I saved the life of one this women reacting after the years being raped here in Edinburgh. She has never been again the same girl as before being raped. It's precisely because one is one with everything else that a rapist needs to be castrated at the very least. And as for women sexual fantasies of being raped was out of line. A comment like this only can encourage more a rapist to keep going. Mayka --- On Wed, 23/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 23 February, 2011, 18:22 Edgar is indeed correct. It can be comforting to believe that the incentive is power--hatred of women and the like. But the evidence, and the report from rapists themselves, is that it is indeed about sex. Though other factors co-exist. 10 years ago, i was moderating a rape-fantasy discussion board, as part of a training exercise. A clinical psychologist in NY was running a group for male sex offenders who were in prison. We had many discussions on this, and the consenses was in agreement with this article. The psychologist running the group was--himself drawn to the act of rape as a sexual drive. He told me that the best gift his wife gave him was the acceptance she offered him when he confessed this to her. She even offered to role-play a rape scene with him, but he refused. He told me that he felt it might get out of hand. Its easy to label these men as monsters as a means to deny their right to even exist. Brand them. Shun them. But they do exist, and have since the dawn of man. If we are all one, we can only hope to heal if everyone is included in the process. I may hate child abusers.. but I remember that more often than not, they were abused too. btw.. There are many, many females who have rape fantasies, as part of their erotic responses. Remember.. I recognize this is a polarizing topic. I'm not denying the experience rape has on unwilling females. I'm just offering another perspective because the only way to ever hope to prevent or heal the problem, is to look at it with a clear mirror. Edgar, What does the data show on rape when it is done in countries as part of geneocide? Kristy --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net
[Zen] Fwd: Integral Tantra and Sexual Ethics
For Anthony.. Given the recent threads, I had to laugh when I saw this.. Off to a fun-filled lecture on hormones (HRT);) k Having trouble viewing this email? Click here Bringing Everything to the Path Integral Tantra Sally Kempton and Ken Wilber This is not a discussion about sex. It's a discussion about bliss. It often seems that the word Tantra is mishandled by the West, fantasized and fetishized and repackaged into something more palatable to our collective sexual shadow. But outside the realm of self-help books, soft-core porn, and Sting interviews, Tantra actually has very little to do with sexual virility or finding ways to last longer in bed. Of course there are Tantric traditions that include sexual practices, but at its core Tantra is really just the simple recognition of the erotic union of emptiness and form. That is, that Spirit and matter are ultimately not-two, and if you follow Spirit into the depths of manifestation, you will discover a bliss beyond any you have ever known. Because Spirit and Matter are ultimately not-two, and because we know that matter is evolving, spirit evolves right along with it. Here lies the heart of Integral Tantra. The apparent separation between form and emptiness is the very first boundary we draw in our experience, and is the very last to be transcended on the path to enlightenment. And it is this primordial duality which, through the process of evolution, fractalizes into every other dualism in our lives: feminine/masculine, interior/exterior, whole/part, collective/individual, etc. Because Integral Tantra encompasses literally everything, it allows us to bring everything to our spiritual paths, while leading us to the central thread running through every single dualism in existence—pull this thread, and the entire Kosmos comes undone right before (and right behind) our eyes [+listen] Simply Uncool Diane Musho Hamilton In Defense of Promiscuity Part II Jun Po Kelly Roshi In Defense of Chastity Emily Ann Baratta Why Are Our Spiritual Teachers So Screwed Up? John Dupuy Integral Sexual Ethics Emily Ann Baratta Spread the Love! The Integral movement is growing in size and influence every day, due to your continued support and enthusiasm. And yet our journey has only just begun. Help us spread the word by forwarding this email to your friends and family, or sharing your favorite links on Facebook or Twitter! Follow Integral Life on Forward email This email was sent to healthy...@comcast.net by nore...@integrallife.com | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe™ | Privacy Policy. Integral Life | 2503 Walnut Street | Suite 300 | Boulder | CO | 80302
Re: [Zen] Re: Fwd: Integral Tantra and Sexual Ethics
Hi Ed, Actually, I was thinking of the Tantra one. You know Anthony and his tantra. I just love to watch his agitations.. ~k~ --- On Wed, 2/23/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Fwd: Integral Tantra and Sexual Ethics To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 4:42 PM Did you mean the article: In Defense of Promiscuity Part II Jun Po Kelly Roshi (http://integrallife.com/member/jun-po-kelly-roshi/blog/defense-promiscuity-part-ii) ? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: For Anthony.. Given the recent threads, I had to laugh when I saw this.. Off to a fun-filled lecture on hormones (HRT);) k
Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Edgar, I agree fully with your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, but I disagree with part of what you say in the first, when you suggest that the cure for a rapist, is to have a willing partner to satisfy and indulge his sexual appetite and fantasiey, whenever he desires it. While i acknowledge that rape is indeed motivated in part, by sexual urges, it is not the complete picture. I don't know if you followed the earlier thread wherein I discussed D/s and voluntary sexual submission /slavery? Having a sexual servant who provides fulfillment for every fantasy, no matter how dark or violent, does not seem to impact the rape stats, or the cases for SVU units. So there is more to this. This area is not my range of study or experience, but clearly, there are other factors. Thanks, Kristy --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 1:56 PM Kristy, Good objective comments. Rape fantasies are indeed common among women, though of course these are invariably about really appealing lusty guys who won't take no for an answer rather than men that the woman isn't attracted to as may well be the case in actual rapes. The cure for rape is of course for the potential rapist to have a woman who satisfies all his desires voluntarily. If this is the case he has no need to go elsewhere on any terms. Unfortunately few women know how to provide this to a man. It's not just about providing ordinary sex, but fulfilling his deepest psychological needs as a man as well. Throughout history rape has been quite common and everyone of us is almost certainly the descendant of one or more rapes in their ancestry. From an evolutionary perspective rape is quite natural and is an excellent strategy to maximize one's genetic legacy - if one can get away with it. As ED's article points out this is usually only the case in when the woman in question is not under the protection of male family members as is usually the case in traditional societies. In modern western societies the state has usurped male protection of women which makes them more vulnerable to rape. Men were given a very strong natural desire to have sex with attractive women at almost any cost if they can manage it. The genes that give that impetus have been strengthened because such men tend to leave more descendants carrying those genes. Every man has at least some desire to rape women he can't get otherwise though that desire is usually tempered by an equally strong survival instinct. Men of course have strong rape fantasies as well. These often take the form of the woman he rapes realizing how wonderful he is and falling head over heels in love with him because he is such a great lover whether he actually is or not! Edgar On Feb 23, 2011, at 1:22 PM, Kristy McClain wrote: Edgar is indeed correct. It can be comforting to believe that the incentive is power--hatred of women and the like. But the evidence, and the report from rapists themselves, is that it is indeed about sex. Though other factors co-exist. 10 years ago, i was moderating a rape-fantasy discussion board, as part of a training exercise. A clinical psychologist in NY was running a group for male sex offenders who were in prison. We had many discussions on this, and the consenses was in agreement with this article. The psychologist running the group was--himself drawn to the act of rape as a sexual drive. He told me that the best gift his wife gave him was the acceptance she offered him when he confessed this to her. She even offered to role-play a rape scene with him, but he refused. He told me that he felt it might get out of hand. Its easy to label these men as monsters as a means to deny their right to even exist. Brand them. Shun them. But they do exist, and have since the dawn of man. If we are all one, we can only hope to heal if everyone is included in the process. I may hate child abusers.. but I remember that more often than not, they were abused too. btw.. There are many, many females who have rape fantasies, as part of their erotic responses. Remember.. I recognize this is a polarizing topic. I'm not denying the experience rape has on unwilling females. I'm just offering another perspective because the only way to ever hope to prevent or heal the problem, is to look at it with a clear mirror. Edgar, What does the data show on rape when it is done in countries as part of geneocide? Kristy --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 8:08 AM Rape is primarily about satisfying sexual desire when it can't be achieved otherwise
Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
Ed, I think we're witnessing the coronation process. (Am behind on mail, but will catch up)... ~k~ :) --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 6:15 PM ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Anthony, I am led to believe that 'zen' (as against Zen) does not concern itself with conceptions, like for instance conceptions concerning ethics/morality. 'zen' is into Just THIS. and only Just THIS. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@ wrote: ED, I am led to believe you think 'zen' is unethical. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
Anthony, Its not bad. Its not good. It's Just THIS.. ~k~ --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 8:46 PM ED, Despite all those horrible 'manga', the crime rates in Japan regarding sex and violence remain low. So it is bad that I am agitated by tantric sex and pedophilic priest. I should learn more from the Japanese. Anthony --- On Wed, 23/2/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 23 February, 2011, 3:52 AM God alone knows, but some think so. As Anthony appears to get unusually agitated by Tantric sex, pedophilic priests and raunchy Zen masters, I thought he might appreciate the news from Japan re: shojo manga and shotacon. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Is there any evidence that these comics actually contribute to actual sexual abuse of children? Is the rate of this any higher in Japan than elsewhere? If not I don't see any problem with it, after all no children are involved in its production as it is all art work not photography. Edgar Anthony, You may be pleased to hear that pedophiliac priests will shortly be finding life tougher even in Japan. --ED Lolicon also romanised as rorikon, is a Japanese portmanteau of the phrase Lolita complex. In Japan, the term describes an attraction to underage girls, or an individual with such an attraction. It is also commonly used when referring to lolicon manga or lolicon anime, a subset of manga and anime wherein childlike female characters are often depicted in an erotic manner. A number of anthology manga magazines have been published since the 1980s which focus exclusively on this subset. Outside Japan, the term is in less common usage and usually refers to the manga and anime. The phrase is a reference to Vladimir Nabokov's book Lolita, in which a middle-age man becomes sexually obsessed with a twelve-year-old girl, and is an outgrowth of the shôjo manga style of artwork. The equivalent term for attraction to (or art pertaining to erotic portrayal of) young boys is shotacon. Laws have been enacted in various countries, including in Japan, which regulate explicit content featuring children or child-like characters. Parent and citizens groups in Japan have organized to work toward stronger controls and stricter laws governing lolicon manga and other similar media. Critics say that the lolicon genre contributes to actual sexual abuse of children, while others say that there is no evidence for this claim, or that there is evidence to the contrary. A recent law passed in Tokyo on what material could be sold to minors takes effect in July 2011, and has directly affected the long-running Tokyo International Anime Fair (TAF) as multiple large and small publishers of manga and producers of anime have backed out of showing or sponsoring the fair. (Wiki) Bill, I am glad you still think ethic may exist. Wait for a non-pedophilic priest to convert you to the glory of God. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
Anthony, No.. Its Just her And her. And her.. And - oh her. And yeah--her too~k --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 8:34 PM ED, Bill has continually educated me regarding the 'conceptions', so I agree with you. On the other hand, I also agree that when I enjoy myself in the orgyhouse, it is all 'just this'. Anthony --- On Tue, 22/2/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 22 February, 2011, 11:42 PM Anthony, I am led to believe that 'zen' (as against Zen) does not concern itself with conceptions, like for instance conceptions concerning ethics/morality. 'zen' is into Just THIS. and only Just THIS. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: ED, I am led to believe you think 'zen' is unethical. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
Anthony, *blush* *fanning me face* *sigh* *breathing fast* Name the date. I'll be there.. k --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 8:57 PM Bill, I believe one day you will go naked in public. Anthony --- On Wed, 23/2/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 23 February, 2011, 9:14 AM ED, I would think a zen or Zen or aerobics or even a soccer teacher would ...feel bound to adhere to sexual expectations and conventions of society, and to abide by the law (which is just a codifed form of society's expectations and conventions enforcable by the governement). The only exception would be when the teacher actually wants to teach something that specifically contradicts societal norms. In zen and Zen and aerobics or soccer I don't beleive that is the case. There is however a big difference between 'feeling bound' to adhere to societal expectations or limits and having those expectations or limits yourself. For example I might wear clothing when I go downtown to shop, but that doesn't mean I think going naked in public is immoral. I wear clothing because I respect the sensibilities of my community and their laws. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Bill, Is is it not the case that a zen teacher (as against a Zen teacher) would not feel bound to adhere to sexual expectations and conventions of society, provided his behavior did not violate the law? --ED Definitions of nonethical on the Web: * Not ethical; not related to ethics en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nonethical http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nonethicalsa\ =Xei=rsRjTcnMGpC6sAPQ3uXdCAved=0CAcQpAMoAAusg=AFQjCNHh0cSXS2xs26kvpax\ ym2mYrUKlEA --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Zen (lower-case 'z') is not UN-ethical, it is A-ethical...Bill! ED, I am led to believe you think 'zen' is unethical. Anthony Bill, I rarely if ever criticize 'hypocrisy as it is an unconscious but normal and natural aspect of all humans and human groups. The only difference I perceive between zen and Zen is a non-concern for good motivation and a non-focus on ethical behavior in zen as compared with Zen. --ED ED, I just want to make clear that I think when you are talking about this article and about 'Zen' in general that you are referring to Zen Buddhism. The reason I want to emphasize this is that I think your justificable criticism and examples of hypocricy are the result of the Buddhist layers of this, not zen itself. ...Bill! Hi Steve, Zen, like most religious or spiritual paths and practices is riddled with unstated or unexamined assumptions and ambiguities. The article facilitates the task of identifying them. --ED
Re: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others?
Hello .. Steve?? I was in the midst of replying to an earlier comment you offered, when I read this.. Best click cancel' as I clearly don't know who you are very well The internet does create fuzzy bed-fellows--so-to-speak. Clearly, whatever comments i was about to make would be useless. I'll sit on the sidelines here pulling the straw out of my teeth.. k --- On Tue, 2/22/11, eugnostos2000 eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: eugnostos2000 eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 10:26 PM Hello. I have been following the recent discussions concerning zen, Zen and ethics with interest. IMO, it is a bit of a Red Herring to stay fixated on sexual ethics which even non-Zennists will often regard as a subjective muddle. So let me ask this. Can a Buddha deliberately harm others? Now doubtless there are some here that will say that zen has nothing to do with Buddha, etc. etc., but it is a fact that Zen arose within Buddhism as a way to become aware of our own Buddha-Dhatu in a direct way, unencumbered by intellectualism. And of course Zennists will assert that this direct pointing to the heart of humanity goes directly back to Gotama himself. So the question remains. Can a fully realized Buddha deliberately choose to cause harm? The BuddhaDharma has always been concerned, not just with Great Wisdom, but also with Great Compassion. Is this Great Compassion merely another conceptual delusion or is it a fundamental feature of Enlightenment itself? Steve
Re: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others?
*s* Me neither.. As said.. I'm sure I'll learn much from this thread.. Be well :) .. k --- On Tue, 2/22/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Can A Buddha Harm Others? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 11:40 PM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Hello .. Steve??  I was in the midst of replying to an earlier comment you offered, when I read this.. Best click cancel' as I clearly don't know who you are very well The internet does create fuzzy bed-fellows--so-to-speak. Clearly, whatever comments i was about to make would be useless. I'll sit on the sidelines here pulling the straw out of my teeth.. k Hi Kristy. Uh, I don't quite understand. Explain? Steve
Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
Anthony, When you talk to my parents... Just tell them that you met me when I was dancing in a cage at a strip joint near the airport?? ~ k~ --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 9:02 PM Kristy, You forgot it is promiscuous in the orgyhouse. Anthony --- On Wed, 23/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 23 February, 2011, 11:54 AM Anthony, No.. Its Just her And her. And her.. And - oh her. And yeah--her too~k --- On Tue, 2/22/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 8:34 PM ED, Bill has continually educated me regarding the 'conceptions', so I agree with you. On the other hand, I also agree that when I enjoy myself in the orgyhouse, it is all 'just this'. Anthony --- On Tue, 22/2/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 22 February, 2011, 11:42 PM Anthony, I am led to believe that 'zen' (as against Zen) does not concern itself with conceptions, like for instance conceptions concerning ethics/morality. 'zen' is into Just THIS. and only Just THIS. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: ED, I am led to believe you think 'zen' is unethical. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
Anthony, Ed, Steve,
Reading your comments on this, and the complete article, I was reminded of a
difficult time in my life, and thought I'd offer a few further comments which
are partly cathartic for me, if I may. As I read Stuart Lachs' article, I
was interested in his comments on self-interest, authority-figures, and the
choices and consequences of human behavior.
He discusses the role of self-interest-- certainly a key principle in economics
, psychology, philosophy, and zen-- as they examine or reflect human
behavior. As I understand it, self-interest is being free to do what one
wants, whereas selfishness is the exclusive concern with one's own self.
Game theory, (strategic human behavior), is often used in organizational
settings , to include zen centers. From his discription, a lot of this is
going on in the situations he describes. Before you nod off, bear with me;)
His perspective seems a bit cynical from the start, though I tend to agree
with many of his opening points such as the idea that many are seeking a
parent in the form of an all-knowing Teacher. I have said this before..
There seems to be so many people who are frightened to own their own decisions
and choices. Perhaps they are hedging possible consequences. As if one's
happiness, safety or opportunity resides in someone else.
The idealized Teacher..idea has merit, though I have often thought of TNH as
one who embodies the stereotype of the ideal zen teacher. Soft-spoken and
mindful and a bit quirky and oddly funny and gentle-kind-of-thing. Yet he
defended Baker, who clearly seemed corrupt.
Is that because TNH is too blindly trusting by always assuming the best in
others? Perhaps. But its kinda nice to know that such kind naivté can exist,
even though I don't accept it as wise.
But lets examine the All-Knowing Teacher-as-the-Authority. In the article,
some Teachers manipulate situations to maintain this role. But remember that
there is no Teacher without students. So, I would argue that students bear an
equal responsibility in this, especially when things go wrong, as they
did here. Their neediness and own narcississtic needs seem to embue the Teacher
with such powers--and with few questions asked. Common sense and healthy
skepticism can avoid many of these problems.
I thought Mayka made a great observation. Para-phrasing... Look within first
to realize your own experience and awareness. Relying solely on another is not,
by definition, a direct experience. But if reading or other means can open a
door to one's own deeper experience, that can be helpful. So I would call
those an adjunct.
The flip side is that its hard for me to reconcile the changing faces of the
zen students here. On the one hand, we are all one. Show compassion to all.
But the minute they feel betrayed, which I argue they help create via their own
expectations, they now feel victimized. How about allowing the teacher to be
human? Hence--flawed like the rest of us. It is the double standards that set
people up for disappointment and their own suffering.
I have said before that the $$ in spiritual venues can be a a powerful
incentive -- and do corrupt the process. But if you write the check, be
responsible for your own experience, or accept the consequences.I disagree a
bit with his condemnation of 'legitimizing zen literature and rituals. Goes
back to common sense. They can be useful tools, but if someone believes they
are the holy-grail, they must own the outcome of that naivté.
Personally, I'd love it if Kenneth Arrow put all this on an indifference
curve. (Everyone can ignore that). I said this was part catharsis for me...
In grad school, one of the articles that really influenced me back then was:
#yiv473658539 .yiv473658539MsgBody-text, #yiv473658539
.yiv473658539MsgBody-text * {font:10pt monospace;}
#yiv473658539 p {margin:0;}
[PDF]
Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by GS Becker - 1976 - Cited by 571 - Related articles
Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology. Gary S.
Becker. Journal of Economic Literature, Vol. 14, No. 3 (Sep., 1976), 817-826.
...
www.towson.edu/~jpomy/behavioralecon/beckeraltruism76.pdf - Similar
Thanks,
Kristy
p.s. Anthony, I still maintain that the marital discord results from poor
communication from the beginning--but I am not defending his behavior. I'm
simply suggesting that all parties bear some responsibility..
Steve,
Very interesting reading, though I did not go to all details.
I see that Richard Baker and Shimano are two sexual heros. Kapleau and Shunryu
Suzuki seem to be spared of that title. If I am wrong, please correct it.
Of course, sex misconduct is one conspicuous quality. In this case, zen pales
against Tantric/Tibetan Buddhism, as the latter has a famous sex
Re: [Zen] Martial arts
Hi Bill, This is exactly why I wanted to learn this! Thanks also to Anthony and Mayka for your suggestions. Anthony, I had never heard of Taiji before. I'll have to look this up. btw~ you can bump into any conversation you want with me..k --- On Sat, 2/19/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: Re: [Zen] Martial arts To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 5:51 PM Kristy, I used to practice Tai Chi just as you suggest - as moving meditation. I think it it a good method to help bring your zen up off the cushion and more fully integrate it into your life. I'm not an expert on martial arts and I'm sure someone on the forum who is will answer your questions about that, but I've heard both Tai Chi and Qi Gong classified as martial arts. They're really not to different than when a martial artist is practicing his/her movements by themselves. In karate they call these excersises 'kata'...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Hi Steve,  I am learning Tai Chi as part of a mindfulness and extension of a spiritual practice. Question? Is Tai Chi considered a martial art like karate, or no? Are karate and kung fu related?  Any tips on how to improve one's focus and concentration while practicing--as a beginner?  Thanks..k   ---
Re: [Zen] Re: Martial arts
Hey Steve! This is great information. Thank you! Some background.. I am learning this as part of a mindful meditation practice, but also as a self-awareness practice. I have witnessed the short and long forms. It will take me a long time to remember the sequences as given. But watching it is like a beautiful dance. Its challenging for me to copy or follow the body positions of my instructor, but with practice, maybe in time? He has introduced push-hands, and I love it, though I'm awkward right now. I watched two women practicing sword-play (?) in an adjacent studio. It was beautiful--like a choreographed ballet. Advancing..retreating.. turning...twisting..engaging...dis-engaging. The soft clicks as their swords met in space were like mindfulness bells. This looked like very advanced body-work, as they danced so expertly without missing a cue to engage or retreat. What struck me was their precise attention in the moment. And continued with each passing moment. I hope to find that present-centered attention in my Tai Chi practice. I didn't ask the teacher, but I'm wondering is using DVD's as part of a home practice would help, or if concentrating on my formal classes is the best method, at this stage of learning. Thanks again.. Kristy --- On Sat, 2/19/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Martial arts To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 10:06 AM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Hi Steve,  I am learning Tai Chi as part of a mindfulness and extension of a spiritual practice. Question? Is Tai Chi considered a martial art like karate, or no? Are karate and kung fu related?  Any tips on how to improve one's focus and concentration while practicing--as a beginner?  Thanks..k Hi Kristy. Yes, Tai Chi Chuan, or Great Ultimate Boxing, is a soft style form of Chinese Boxing. I had the opportunity of working-out with a practitioner of Tai Chi Boxing, and I was suitably impressed. Martial arts are generally divided into soft or internal and hard or external. Soft arts emphasize the development of inner energy (chi or ki), sensitivity to the direction of momentum, and utilization of the opponent's force to unbalance him or her. I have some training in Aikido, which is a soft art. The term kung fu really refers to a high level of expertise in any endeavor. The terms Chuan Fa, Wu Shu, Kuo Shu, Sanda refer to fighting. Karate is a hard-style Okinawan martial art that combines an early native form of fighting called Te and some basic external Chinese Boxing techniques, mostly from the Fukien White Crane system. There are a huge number of different systems of Kung Fu/Chuan Fa, some similar, some not. Those systems that are called Shao-lin trace their origin to Bodhidharma, the 1st Patriarch of Chan. It is said that Bodhidharma went to the Shao-Lin temple where he sat for 9 years listening to the ants scream. He noticed that his fellow monks were in poor shape, and that this was interfering with meditation. So he taught them a series of exercises called 18 Hands of The Monk, which formed the basis for Shao-Lin Boxing. Your Sifu will give you all the needed tips. When you get to practicing Push-Hands with a partner, you will start to see the martial applications. Steve
Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
Hi Mayka, Please know that I did understand your post, and your words were well-written. I used the word para-phrase for two reasons. I wasn't looking at your post at the time, and was not certain my memory was accurate, as well as being mindful that these were your impressions, and wanted to make sure others knew that. As for TNH..don't mis-understand. I have found many of his books, CD's lectures and interviews to be very insightful and instructive for me. He makes me laugh-- a good thing:) I honor and respect his contributions, though I don't have the same perspective you have about him. Actually, his 'quirkiness makes him much more approachable in my view, thereby making him appear very warm and kind. Take care.. k --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 10:42 AM K... Thank you for sharing your reflections. I can't write English as well as you do and would like to apologise before hand just in case I failed on clarity and made use of broken English. Trying my best in the process of English communication though. In reference with comments made about TNH. I would like to say that I consider him as one of my greatest Spiritual Fathers. A father that sits down on his own throne giving discourses and to whom some of his children can't approach for real. I didn't choose this gentleman to be my Master Spiritual Father. It just happened like that in the same way that it happened to have my blood parents and you your blood parents who gave us life. Not you, not me or anyone else had a choice in the selection of our blood parents. And someone may say now: But that is different as you have a choice in the selection of a Spiritual Father. To which I would be responding: Yes, There is a choice when the choices are based in the self form but there is no choice when they are found in the non self. the Master Spiritual Father was found first in the bottom in the bottom of my heart and then the bottom of my heart found its reflection in the human form of TNH. Whether TNH recognises or takes care of all his children or not is a different matter. And yet, because there is no separation between TNH and myself. I can see what is in him and he can see what is in me too. Saying this, I can tell you and all that at those moments in which the self dissolves in the non self , one appears to others as very sweet and naive. But this doesn't mean that the person loose track of the other reality of the self. It's just that things are seen under the perspective (if perspective can be called) of the non self. He's very far of being blind, well on the contrary, he's very awake. He can be in a room with hundreds of people on it and he does not loose detail. In a quick look he sees all his audience. He's like me, like you and ever body else when we all are truly awake. On the other hand, TNH has all kind of followers which includes all those annoying sappy mess characters, fanatics, hypocritical, crazy people of all kinds who only see him as his Saviour and all that. They seem to be so engaged in the form of the Master that are unable to accept or seeing anything or anyone that is not in the form of the Master!. They don't know yet that the Master is in the breathe!. Best Mayka --- On Mon, 21/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 21 February, 2011, 8:11 Anthony, Ed, Steve, Reading your comments on this, and the complete article, I was reminded of a difficult time in my life, and thought I'd offer a few further comments which are partly cathartic for me, if I may. As I read Stuart Lachs' article, I was interested in his comments on self-interest, authority-figures, and the choices and consequences of human behavior. He discusses the role of self-interest-- certainly a key principle in economics , psychology, philosophy, and zen-- as they examine or reflect human behavior. As I understand it, self-interest is being free to do what one wants, whereas selfishness is the exclusive concern with one's own self. Game theory, (strategic human behavior), is often used in organizational settings , to include zen centers. From his discription, a lot of this is going on in the situations he describes. Before you nod off, bear with me;) His perspective seems a bit cynical from the start, though I tend to agree with many of his opening points such as the idea that many are seeking a parent in the form of an all-knowing Teacher. I have said this before.. There seems to be so many people who are frightened to own their own decisions and choices. Perhaps
Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
Anthony, Let me add something else.. I mentioned game theory before. A classic example is the Prisoner's Dilemma, which you may know, or can google. But lets take a simplistic example: Teacher A has committed some type of infraction with Student B. It could be sexual misconduct, theft.. something serious. Teacher A is found out and held accoutntable. TA is publically chastised, forced to make compensation and is thrown out of his position in disgrace. Student B may then be repaid their lost funds, or offered apology and counseling if its sexual, or whatever fits the crime. But how does it really help Student B? The student is angry or hurt or disillusioned or feels ashamed or violated or any of a hundred other emotions. They feel once again--alone, frustrated and deceived. In the end-- we all have to own our own behavior and our expectations of others. I'm the first to admit that growing up is a royal pain in the butt. But the sooner we accept that the brass ring is not oputside ourselves, and that while others can help us--they cannot fix us or save us. We have to-- at some point--embrace our fears and have the strength to find the answers for ourselves. Its up to us to decide how long we want to be potty-trained..;) Thanks.. k --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 6:34 PM Anthony, Yes, they receive the blame. But why? I think you missed my point. A student has an equal or greater responsibility. They must verify credentials, teaching styles, get references, and the like. To even be educated, they should probably have some emotional maturity and a sense of what they expect to from the experience. They should communicate that. Anthony-- people need to use their head as well as their heart. I am not excusing inappropriate acts or intentions by a Teacher, but such events will continue until students do wake up to the responsibility they have for their own well-being. I recognize its scary for many. But perhaps it is precisely the insight they were seeking in the first place. Kristy --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 5:01 PM Kristy, You say, 'students bear an equal responsibility in this, especially when things go wrong,' It is true to some extent. But when the student is the victim, 90% of the responsibility goes to the teacher. Anthony --- On Mon, 21/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 21 February, 2011, 4:11 PM Anthony, Ed, Steve, Reading your comments on this, and the complete article, I was reminded of a difficult time in my life, and thought I'd offer a few further comments which are partly cathartic for me, if I may. As I read Stuart Lachs' article, I was interested in his comments on self-interest, authority-figures, and the choices and consequences of human behavior. He discusses the role of self-interest-- certainly a key principle in economics , psychology, philosophy, and zen-- as they examine or reflect human behavior. As I understand it, self-interest is being free to do what one wants, whereas selfishness is the exclusive concern with one's own self. Game theory, (strategic human behavior), is often used in organizational settings , to include zen centers. From his discription, a lot of this is going on in the situations he describes. Before you nod off, bear with me;) His perspective seems a bit cynical from the start, though I tend to agree with many of his opening points such as the idea that many are seeking a parent in the form of an all-knowing Teacher. I have said this before.. There seems to be so many people who are frightened to own their own decisions and choices. Perhaps they are hedging possible consequences. As if one's happiness, safety or opportunity resides in someone else. The idealized Teacher..idea has merit, though I have often thought of TNH as one who embodies the stereotype of the ideal zen teacher. Soft-spoken and mindful and a bit quirky and oddly funny and gentle-kind-of-thing. Yet he defended Baker, who clearly seemed corrupt. Is that because TNH is too blindly trusting by always assuming the best in others? Perhaps. But its kinda nice to know that such kind naivté can exist, even though I don't accept it as wise. But lets examine the All-Knowing Teacher-as-the-Authority. In the article, some Teachers manipulate situations to maintain this role. But remember that there is no Teacher
Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
Anthony, Yes, they receive the blame. But why? I think you missed my point. A student has an equal or greater responsibility. They must verify credentials, teaching styles, get references, and the like. To even be educated, they should probably have some emotional maturity and a sense of what they expect to from the experience. They should communicate that. Anthony-- people need to use their head as well as their heart. I am not excusing inappropriate acts or intentions by a Teacher, but such events will continue until students do wake up to the responsibility they have for their own well-being. I recognize its scary for many. But perhaps it is precisely the insight they were seeking in the first place. Kristy --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 5:01 PM Kristy, You say, 'students bear an equal responsibility in this, especially when things go wrong,' It is true to some extent. But when the student is the victim, 90% of the responsibility goes to the teacher. Anthony --- On Mon, 21/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 21 February, 2011, 4:11 PM Anthony, Ed, Steve, Reading your comments on this, and the complete article, I was reminded of a difficult time in my life, and thought I'd offer a few further comments which are partly cathartic for me, if I may. As I read Stuart Lachs' article, I was interested in his comments on self-interest, authority-figures, and the choices and consequences of human behavior. He discusses the role of self-interest-- certainly a key principle in economics , psychology, philosophy, and zen-- as they examine or reflect human behavior. As I understand it, self-interest is being free to do what one wants, whereas selfishness is the exclusive concern with one's own self. Game theory, (strategic human behavior), is often used in organizational settings , to include zen centers. From his discription, a lot of this is going on in the situations he describes. Before you nod off, bear with me;) His perspective seems a bit cynical from the start, though I tend to agree with many of his opening points such as the idea that many are seeking a parent in the form of an all-knowing Teacher. I have said this before.. There seems to be so many people who are frightened to own their own decisions and choices. Perhaps they are hedging possible consequences. As if one's happiness, safety or opportunity resides in someone else. The idealized Teacher..idea has merit, though I have often thought of TNH as one who embodies the stereotype of the ideal zen teacher. Soft-spoken and mindful and a bit quirky and oddly funny and gentle-kind-of-thing. Yet he defended Baker, who clearly seemed corrupt. Is that because TNH is too blindly trusting by always assuming the best in others? Perhaps. But its kinda nice to know that such kind naivté can exist, even though I don't accept it as wise. But lets examine the All-Knowing Teacher-as-the-Authority. In the article, some Teachers manipulate situations to maintain this role. But remember that there is no Teacher without students. So, I would argue that students bear an equal responsibility in this, especially when things go wrong, as they did here. Their neediness and own narcississtic needs seem to embue the Teacher with such powers--and with few questions asked. Common sense and healthy skepticism can avoid many of these problems. I thought Mayka made a great observation. Para-phrasing... Look within first to realize your own experience and awareness. Relying solely on another is not, by definition, a direct experience. But if reading or other means can open a door to one's own deeper experience, that can be helpful. So I would call those an adjunct. The flip side is that its hard for me to reconcile the changing faces of the zen students here. On the one hand, we are all one. Show compassion to all. But the minute they feel betrayed, which I argue they help create via their own expectations, they now feel victimized. How about allowing the teacher to be human? Hence--flawed like the rest of us. It is the double standards that set people up for disappointment and their own suffering. I have said before that the $$ in spiritual venues can be a a powerful incentive -- and do corrupt the process. But if you write the check, be responsible for your own experience, or accept the consequences.I disagree a bit with his condemnation of 'legitimizing zen literature and rituals. Goes back to common sense. They can be useful tools, but if someone believes they are the holy-grail
Re: [Zen] An Article of Interest
Very well-stated and thoughtful comment. Thanks, Steve. --- On Fri, 2/18/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 10:39 PM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Hi Steve,  There are many ideas in the article you post. In light of your discussion with Mike on a different thread about zen sects and religion, and the clipped paragraph below, how is all this different from a cult?  That parallel was one of the things that kept me at a distance-- to co-exist with my skeptical trust level.  Kristy Hi Kristy. IMO, there is always going to be the very real danger of cultism. IMO, the solution is to not allow authority to rest in just a few hands. Also, there should be a critical review board comprised of both teachers and students that have a say in overseeing daily operations. And I cannot stress too strongly that all personnel involved in teaching be held to the strictest standards of conduct, with zero tolerance for any hint of antinomian thinking. In addition, I think that we should always embrace Gotama's own words that we not believe anything merely on authority, but always subject it to critical evaluation, based on both our reason and actual experience. There are many aspects of Buddhism which I am entirely agnostic towards. This does not mean that those tenets are not true, but it does mean that I intend to find out for myself. Steve
Re: [Zen] Martial arts
Hi Steve, I am learning Tai Chi as part of a mindfulness and extension of a spiritual practice. Question? Is Tai Chi considered a martial art like karate, or no? Are karate and kung fu related? Any tips on how to improve one's focus and concentration while practicing--as a beginner? Thanks..k ---
Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones / Ed
Good Morning Ed, *chuckles* Not a bad idea, but I imagine the bureacracy of ever getting this done-- let alone standardized is elusive. But then-- anything practical and useful usually is;) ~ k --- On Fri, 2/18/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 8:28 PM Empower every Sangha member to create his/her own reality: When he/she joins the Sangha, he/she should be required to sign a statement as to whether he/she is or is not open to intimate relations with the teacher, which statement will be shown to the teacher, who understands that his/her position is in jeopardy if he/she violates a student's wishes. ... --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Hi Anthony, From a logical viewpoint, I think your initial comment may be right. Your follow-up adds a condition that seems prudent and correct, but changes it somehow because we are now dealing with two un-enlightened beings. Enter: Ego, jealousy and property rights. I believe that if the subject of fidelity is discussed and agreed upon by both in the beginning of the relationship and / or marriage, then whether or not one or both engage in sex with others, is a non-issue. Does a marital contract (in the USA) preclude taking on other lovers, or is it only inserted in the vows if both agree to them up front? For me, its a non-issue anyway. I see this type of thing as silly. I am very confident that my husband loves me, and wanted to make this commitment--for many reasons. My self-esteem and sense of security is not threatened by the idea that he may have sex with another woman. I think its the secrecy that creates the problem. When you review the biology and anthropology on sexuality and males, its clear than monogamy is not a reasonable option for most. So its the psychology and property rights that mandate this, historically. As you point out, one dons another cap--switching from enlightened mind to lustful mind. When sexuality is repressed or regulated by social norms, it so often seems that the most heinous acts result. I recognize that many choose celibacy while on their spiritual path. i respect those choices. I'm just unclear why having sex with more than one person, even if married, is considered sexual misconduct. I thought zen was ridding itself of all the Judeo-Christian morality norms. I thought one of the teachings is to cease the judgement of self and others. Kristy
Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones
Bill, We know what's up.. we just don't know why. Kristy --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 5:17 AM Kristy, I have no idea what Gempo is up to - or why...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Bill and all,  Since we just had a discussion about sex between Teachers and students, I had to pass this along. Bill-- this is getting to be daytime drama-quality. Will Gempo be on Dancing with the Stars next?... k  Dear Kanzeon Zen Center Members and Friends,  As you are no doubt aware, the situation at Kanzeon has been the subject of a great deal of conversation on the internet and elsewhere, including an open “Letter of Recommendation to Kanzeon Zen Center� from 44 American Zen Teachers, which was sent to us directly by Kyogen Carlson of the Dharma Rain Zen Center and posted two days ago on the Sweeping Zen website.  Attached is the Kanzeon Board’s response to that letter, which we are sending today to Roshi Gerry Shishin Wick, President, of the White Plum Asanga, and to the American Zen Teachers Association. We trust that they will post our letter on their websites and pass it on to their members.  We would also like to remind you of the healing circle meeting tonight in the Zendo at Kanzeon at 7:30. These meetings will not be broadcast or recorded. Once again, we invite you to speak and listen from your heart, and even if you have not been involved in the conversation until now, to join us and participate actively in the healing and rebuilding of our sangha.  Sincerely, The Kanzeon Board *   To Members of the American Zen Teachers and White Plum Asanga:   As members of the Board of Kanzeon Zen Center, we have received many e-mails and phone calls concerning the highly-publicized situation resulting from Genpo Merzel’s admission of his transgressions and sexual misconduct. These communications from Zen teachers in your organizations and others, not to mention open letters and other postings on various social media and internet sites, are filled with advice and recommendations, many of which are beyond the scope of our responsibility as a Board. To the extent that they are motivated by a sincere concern for the survival, healing and rebuilding of our sangha, we would like to share with you an account of some of our efforts to date.  • Feb. 3rd: Shortly after returning from the international sangha meeting in Europe, Genpo Merzel met with the sangha at the Zen Center in Salt Lake City in an open meeting which was widely publicized in advance. He admitted his misconduct (which had already been made public but wasn’t known by all attending), apologized for his actions for which he bears the blame and responsibility, and responded to the pain, anger, concerns, questions, and feelings of his wife, family and sangha members.  • Feb. 6th: Genpo Merzel announced he is disrobing as a Soto Zen Buddhist priest, resigning as a member of the White Plum Asanga, acknowledged his own dishonest, hurtful behavior as well as his sexual misconduct, and said he has entered therapy which will continue indefinitely. This statement was posted on his website on Feb. 7th †http://bigmind.org/Responsibility.html.  • Feb. 8th: Kanzeon Zen Center announced that Richard Taido Christofferson Sensei will be taking over the teaching functions, training, administration, day-to-day operations, scheduling of all events, ceremonies, retreats, etc. as Vice Abbot and full time resident teacher. Kanzeon and Big Mind (a separate corporate entity) will also separate their websites, and Big Mind will continue as a separate secular practice, not connected with the Soto Zen Buddhist School. This announcement is posted at http://bigmind.org/Home.html.  • Feb. 10th: The first of a projected series of council meetings was held with community members who wished to attend and express their feelings and their views on attempts for future healing.  • Feb. 13th: Taido Sensei arrived in Salt Lake City to lead a town hall meeting to which all local members were invited. He outlined his vision for the future of Kanzeon under his leadership and responded to the concerns of the audience.  • Ongoing: The Board is formulating a Code of Ethics and Guidelines for Procedures addressing issues of misconduct, abuse, and grievances within the sangha, based on models already instituted by other groups. They will be adopted as soon as possible.  Further, an e-mail sent to us yesterday by members of your organizations raised six issues, to which we briefly respond as follows:  1. Teaching. Genpo Merzel is taking an indefinite leave
Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones
Mike, I've sure missed you!!!...~ k --- On Fri, 2/18/11, mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 12:55 AM Kristy, Ah well, you know what they say, Big Mind, Little . Mike From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 18 February, 2011 4:38:05 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones Bill and all, Since we just had a discussion about sex between Teachers and students, I had to pass this along. Bill-- this is getting to be daytime drama-quality. Will Gempo be on Dancing with the Stars next?... k Dear Kanzeon Zen Center Members and Friends, As you are no doubt aware, the situation at Kanzeon has been the subject of a great deal of conversation on the internet and elsewhere, including an open “Letter of Recommendation to Kanzeon Zen Center” from 44 American Zen Teachers, which was sent to us directly by Kyogen Carlson of the Dharma Rain Zen Center and posted two days ago on the Sweeping Zen website. Attached is the Kanzeon Board’s response to that letter, which we are sending today to Roshi Gerry Shishin Wick, President, of the White Plum Asanga, and to the American Zen Teachers Association. We trust that they will post our letter on their websites and pass it on to their members. We would also like to remind you of the healing circle meeting tonight in the Zendo at Kanzeon at 7:30. These meetings will not be broadcast or recorded. Once again, we invite you to speak and listen from your heart, and even if you have not been involved in the conversation until now, to join us and participate actively in the healing and rebuilding of our sangha. Sincerely, The Kanzeon Board * To Members of the American Zen Teachers and White Plum Asanga: As members of the Board of Kanzeon Zen Center, we have received many e-mails and phone calls concerning the highly-publicized situation resulting from Genpo Merzel’s admission of his transgressions and sexual misconduct. These communications from Zen teachers in your organizations and others, not to mention open letters and other postings on various social media and internet sites, are filled with advice and recommendations, many of which are beyond the scope of our responsibility as a Board. To the extent that they are motivated by a sincere concern for the survival, healing and rebuilding of our sangha, we would like to share with you an account of some of our efforts to date. • Feb. 3rd: Shortly after returning from the international sangha meeting in Europe, Genpo Merzel met with the sangha at the Zen Center in Salt Lake City in an open meeting which was widely publicized in advance. He admitted his misconduct (which had already been made public but wasn’t known by all attending), apologized for his actions for which he bears the blame and responsibility, and responded to the pain, anger, concerns, questions, and feelings of his wife, family and sangha members. • Feb. 6th: Genpo Merzel announced he is disrobing as a Soto Zen Buddhist priest, resigning as a member of the White Plum Asanga, acknowledged his own dishonest, hurtful behavior as well as his sexual misconduct, and said he has entered therapy which will continue indefinitely. This statement was posted on his website on Feb. 7th — http://bigmind.org/Responsibility.html. • Feb. 8th: Kanzeon Zen Center announced that Richard Taido Christofferson Sensei will be taking over the teaching functions, training, administration, day-to-day operations, scheduling of all events, ceremonies, retreats, etc. as Vice Abbot and full time resident teacher. Kanzeon and Big Mind (a separate corporate entity) will also separate their websites, and Big Mind will continue as a separate secular practice, not connected with the Soto Zen Buddhist School. This announcement is posted at http://bigmind.org/Home.html. • Feb. 10th: The first of a projected series of council meetings was held with community members who wished to attend and express their feelings and their views on attempts for future healing. • Feb. 13th: Taido Sensei arrived in Salt Lake City to lead a town hall meeting to which all local members were invited. He outlined his vision for the future of Kanzeon under his leadership and responded to the concerns of the audience. • Ongoing: The Board is formulating a Code of Ethics and Guidelines for Procedures addressing issues of misconduct, abuse, and grievances within the sangha, based on models already instituted by other groups. They will be adopted as soon as possible. Further, an e-mail sent to us yesterday by members of your organizations raised six issues, to which we briefly respond as follows: 1. Teaching. Genpo Merzel is taking an indefinite leave of absence of at least
Re: [Zen] An Article of Interest
Hi Steve, There are many ideas in the article you post. In light of your discussion with Mike on a different thread about zen sects and religion, and the clipped paragraph below, how is all this different from a cult? That parallel was one of the things that kept me at a distance-- to co-exist with my skeptical trust level. Kristy Students, for their part, develop a desire for the master’s aura, recognition, and approval. They also learn to kow-tow to his authority and legitimacy. Further, they learn quickly that their advancement up the institutional ladder is completely dependent upon the master’s good graces. Because the Dharma transmitted Zen master acts not in his own name and authority, but rather as the only full delegate of the institution, with all the authority and power that entails, he also monopolizes the means to salvation. So, we can understand that there might be multiple motives for “not seeing” the master as he really is, whether there be an absence of compassion or wisdom or the presence of sexual improprieties or alcoholism. This is what psychiatrists call “negative hallucination,” i.e., keeping unconscious something that we perceive. --- On Thu, 2/17/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 9:55 PM Hello. Here is the link to a very interesting article on the topic of Zen scandals in America by Stuart Lachs entitled The Zen Master in America: Dressing the Donkey with Bells and Scarves http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/Zen_Master_in_America.html Steve
Re: [Zen] An Article of Interest
Ed, I guess I don't rely on definitions in the same way, when discussing a topic here. I don't worry about being perfectly precise. I understand a cult as a group headed by a charasmatic leader , who has devoted followers and usually is vested in power or authority as the mission is transmitted to others. I just thought Steve or others might have a comment on the paragraph I cited. It sounds cult-ish to me. The scariest words in the universe for me? Blind obedience. Hope all is well with you.. Kristy --- On Fri, 2/18/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 12:28 PM Based on any of the definitions below, Zen appears not to be a cult. --ED Definitions of cult on the Web: followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices fad: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal; he always follows the latest fads; it was all the rage that season followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false; it was a satanic cult wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices could be, reasonably or unreasonably, considered strange. The term was originally used to denote a system of ritual practices. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Hi Steve, There are many ideas in the article you post. In light of your discussion with Mike on a different thread about zen sects and religion, and the clipped paragraph below, how is all this different from a cult? That parallel was one of the things that kept me at a distance-- to co-exist with my skeptical trust level. Kristy Students, for their part, develop a desire for the master's aura, recognition, and approval. They also learn to kow-tow to his authority and legitimacy. Further, they learn quickly that their advancement up the institutional ladder is completely dependent upon the master's good graces. Because the Dharma transmitted Zen master acts not in his own name and authority, but rather as the only full delegate of the institution, with all the authority and power that entails, he also monopolizes the means to salvation. So, we can understand that there might be multiple motives for 'not seeing' the master as he really is, whether there be an absence of compassion or wisdom or the presence of sexual improprieties or alcoholism. This is what psychiatrists call 'negative hallucination,' i.e., keeping unconscious something that we perceive. Hello. Here is the link to a very interesting article on the topic of Zen scandals in America by Stuart Lachs entitled The Zen Master in America: Dressing the Donkey with Bells and Scarves http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/Zen_Master_in_America.html Steve
Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones
Anthony, Oh my! Am I gonna fun replying to THIS one! I have to teach a class right now-- but I'll be back to you soon on this;) Kristy --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 3:12 PM Kristy, My proposal is still valid, but with one more condition: the non awakening behavior should not affect marital relationships. Anthony --- On Fri, 18/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 18 February, 2011, 7:40 AM Anthony, In light of Gempo's behavior, do you still believe this?.. K IMO, there is no difference. 'Awakening' does not transcend usual sexual standards. It can be reconciled if the time is divided between non awakening time when wild sex is conducted, and awakened period when the guru can transfer his knowledge. There may be a better way which I don't know. Anthony --- On Thu, 2/17/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 4:08 PM Dear Kanzeon Zen Center Members and Friends, As you are no doubt aware, the situation at Kanzeon has been the subject of a great deal of conversation on the internet and elsewhere, including an open “Letter of Recommendation to Kanzeon Zen Center” from 44 American Zen Teachers, which was sent to us directly by Kyogen Carlson of the Dharma Rain Zen Center and posted two days ago on the Sweeping Zen website. Attached is the Kanzeon Board’s response to that letter, which we are sending today to Roshi Gerry Shishin Wick, President, of the White Plum Asanga, and to the American Zen Teachers Association. We trust that they will post our letter on their websites and pass it on to their members. We would also like to remind you of the healing circle meeting tonight in the Zendo at Kanzeon at 7:30. These meetings will not be broadcast or recorded. Once again, we invite you to speak and listen from your heart, and even if you have not been involved in the conversation until now, to join us and participate actively in the healing and rebuilding of our sangha. Sincerely, The Kanzeon Board * To Members of the American Zen Teachers and White Plum Asanga: As members of the Board of Kanzeon Zen Center, we have received many e-mails and phone calls concerning the highly-publicized situation resulting from Genpo Merzel’s admission of his transgressions and sexual misconduct. These communications from Zen teachers in your organizations and others, not to mention open letters and other postings on various social media and internet sites, are filled with advice and recommendations, many of which are beyond the scope of our responsibility as a Board. To the extent that they are motivated by a sincere concern for the survival, healing and rebuilding of our sangha, we would like to share with you an account of some of our efforts to date. • Feb. 3rd: Shortly after returning from the international sangha meeting in Europe, Genpo Merzel met with the sangha at the Zen Center in Salt Lake City in an open meeting which was widely publicized in advance. He admitted his misconduct (which had already been made public but wasn’t known by all attending), apologized for his actions for which he bears the blame and responsibility, and responded to the pain, anger, concerns, questions, and feelings of his wife, family and sangha members. • Feb. 6th: Genpo Merzel announced he is disrobing as a Soto Zen Buddhist priest, resigning as a member of the White Plum Asanga, acknowledged his own dishonest, hurtful behavior as well as his sexual misconduct, and said he has entered therapy which will continue indefinitely. This statement was posted on his website on Feb. 7th — http://bigmind.org/Responsibility.html. • Feb. 8th: Kanzeon Zen Center announced that Richard Taido Christofferson Sensei will be taking over the teaching functions, training, administration, day-to-day operations, scheduling of all events, ceremonies, retreats, etc. as Vice Abbot and full time resident teacher. Kanzeon and Big Mind (a separate corporate entity) will also separate their websites, and Big Mind will continue as a separate secular practice, not connected with the Soto Zen Buddhist School. This announcement is posted at http://bigmind.org/Home.html. • Feb. 10th: The first of a projected series of council meetings was held with community members who wished to attend and express their feelings and their views on attempts for future healing. • Feb. 13th: Taido Sensei arrived in Salt Lake City to lead a town hall
Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones
Bill, *s* Touché!!~ k --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 5:32 PM Kristy, Or maybe...we know what's up, we know why but we don't like it...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Bill,  We know what's up.. we just don't know why.  Kristy --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: From: Bill! BillSmart@... Subject: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 5:17 AM  Kristy, I have no idea what Gempo is up to - or why...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@ wrote: Bill and all,  Since we just had a discussion about sex between Teachers and students, I had to pass this along. Bill-- this is getting to be daytime drama-quality. Will Gempo be on Dancing with the Stars next?... k  Dear Kanzeon Zen Center Members and Friends,  As you are no doubt aware, the situation at Kanzeon has been the subject of a great deal of conversation on the internet and elsewhere, including an open â€ÅLetter of Recommendation to Kanzeon Zen Center� from 44 American Zen Teachers, which was sent to us directly by Kyogen Carlson of the Dharma Rain Zen Center and posted two days ago on the Sweeping Zen website.  Attached is the Kanzeon Board’s response to that letter, which we are sending today to Roshi Gerry Shishin Wick, President, of the White Plum Asanga, and to the American Zen Teachers Association. We trust that they will post our letter on their websites and pass it on to their members.  We would also like to remind you of the healing circle meeting tonight in the Zendo at Kanzeon at 7:30. These meetings will not be broadcast or recorded. Once again, we invite you to speak and listen from your heart, and even if you have not been involved in the conversation until now, to join us and participate actively in the healing and rebuilding of our sangha.  Sincerely, The Kanzeon Board *   To Members of the American Zen Teachers and White Plum Asanga:   As members of the Board of Kanzeon Zen Center, we have received many e-mails and phone calls concerning the highly-publicized situation resulting from Genpo Merzel’s admission of his transgressions and sexual misconduct. These communications from Zen teachers in your organizations and others, not to mention open letters and other postings on various social media and internet sites, are filled with advice and recommendations, many of which are beyond the scope of our responsibility as a Board. To the extent that they are motivated by a sincere concern for the survival, healing and rebuilding of our sangha, we would like to share with you an account of some of our efforts to date.  • Feb. 3rd: Shortly after returning from the international sangha meeting in Europe, Genpo Merzel met with the sangha at the Zen Center in Salt Lake City in an open meeting which was widely publicized in advance. He admitted his misconduct (which had already been made public but wasn’t known by all attending), apologized for his actions for which he bears the blame and responsibility, and responded to the pain, anger, concerns, questions, and feelings of his wife, family and sangha members.  • Feb. 6th: Genpo Merzel announced he is disrobing as a Soto Zen Buddhist priest, resigning as a member of the White Plum Asanga, acknowledged his own dishonest, hurtful behavior as well as his sexual misconduct, and said he has entered therapy which will continue indefinitely. This statement was posted on his website on Feb. 7th †http://bigmind.org/Responsibility.html.  • Feb. 8th: Kanzeon Zen Center announced that Richard Taido Christofferson Sensei will be taking over the teaching functions, training, administration, day-to-day operations, scheduling of all events, ceremonies, retreats, etc. as Vice Abbot and full time resident teacher. Kanzeon and Big Mind (a separate corporate entity) will also separate their websites, and Big Mind will continue as a separate secular practice, not connected with the Soto Zen Buddhist School. This announcement is posted at http://bigmind.org/Home.html.  • Feb. 10th: The first of a projected series of council meetings was held with community members who wished to attend and express their feelings and their views on attempts for future healing.  • Feb. 13th: Taido Sensei arrived in Salt Lake City to lead a town hall meeting to which all local members were invited. He outlined
Re: [Zen] An Article of Interest
Bill Ed, I think you're both right.. ~k --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: Re: [Zen] An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 5:38 PM ED and Kristy, A cult is any religion that has been recruiting your religion's members. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Ed,  I guess I don't rely on definitions in the same way, when discussing a topic here. I don't worry about being perfectly precise. I understand a cult as a group headed by a charasmatic leader , who has devoted followers and usually is vested in power or authority as the mission is transmitted to others. I just thought Steve or others might have a comment on the paragraph I cited.  It sounds cult-ish to me.  The scariest words in the universe for me?  Blind obedience.  Hope all is well with you..  Kristy --- On Fri, 2/18/11, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: From: ED seacrofter001@... Subject: Re: [Zen] An Article of Interest To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 12:28 PM  Based on any of the definitions below, Zen appears not to be a cult. --ED  Definitions of cult on the Web: followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices fad: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal; he always follows the latest fads; it was all the rage that season followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader a religion or sect that is generally considered to be unorthodox, extremist, or false; it was a satanic cult wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices could be, reasonably or unreasonably, considered strange. The term was originally used to denote a system of ritual practices. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@ wrote: Hi Steve,  There are many ideas in the article you post. In light of your discussion with Mike on a different thread about zen sects and religion, and the clipped paragraph below, how is all this different from a cult?  That parallel was one of the things that kept me at a distance-- to co-exist with my skeptical trust level.  Kristy  Students, for their part, develop a desire for the master's aura, recognition, and approval. They also learn to kow-tow to his authority and legitimacy. Further, they learn quickly that their advancement up the institutional ladder is completely dependent upon the master's good graces. Because the Dharma transmitted Zen master acts not in his own name and authority, but rather as the only full delegate of the institution, with all the authority and power that entails, he also monopolizes the means to salvation. So, we can understand that there might be multiple motives for 'not seeing' the master as he really is, whether there be an absence of compassion or wisdom or the presence of sexual improprieties or alcoholism. This is what psychiatrists call 'negative hallucination,' i.e., keeping unconscious something that we perceive.  Hello. Here is the link to a very interesting article on the topic of Zen scandals in America by Stuart Lachs entitled The Zen Master in America: Dressing the Donkey with Bells and Scarves http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/Zen_Master_in_America.html Steve
Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones
Hi Anthony, From a logical viewpoint, I think your initial comment may be right. Your follow-up adds a condition that seems prudent and correct, but changes it somehow because we are now dealing with two un-enlightened beings. Enter: Ego, jealousy and property rights. I believe that if the subject of fidelity is discussed and agreed upon by both in the beginning of the relationship and / or marriage, then whether or not one or both engage in sex with others, is a non-issue. Does a marital contract (in the USA) preclude taking on other lovers, or is it only inserted in the vows if both agree to them up front? For me, its a non-issue anyway. I see this type of thing as silly. I am very confident that my husband loves me, and wanted to make this commitment--for many reasons. My self-esteem and sense of security is not threatened by the idea that he may have sex with another woman. I think its the secrecy that creates the problem. When you review the biology and anthropology on sexuality and males, its clear than monogamy is not a reasonable option for most. So its the psychology and property rights that mandate this, historically. As you point out, one dons another cap--switching from enlightened mind to lustful mind. When sexuality is repressed or regulated by social norms, it so often seems that the most heinous acts result. I recognize that many choose celibacy while on their spiritual path. i respect those choices. I'm just unclear why having sex with more than one person, even if married, is considered sexual misconduct. I thought zen was ridding itself of all the Judeo-Christian morality norms. I thought one of the teachings is to cease the judgement of self and others. Kristy --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: - On Fri, 2/18/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 3:12 PM Kristy, My proposal is still valid, but with one more condition: the non awakening behavior should not affect marital relationships. Anthony --- On Fri, 18/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 18 February, 2011, 7:40 AM Anthony, In light of Gempo's behavior, do you still believe this?.. K IMO, there is no difference. 'Awakening' does not transcend usual sexual standards. It can be reconciled if the time is divided between non awakening time when wild sex is conducted, and awakened period when the guru can transfer his knowledge. There may be a better way which I don't know. Anthony --- On Thu, 2/17/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 4:08 PM Dear Kanzeon Zen Center Members and Friends, As you are no doubt aware, the situation at Kanzeon has been the subject of a great deal of conversation on the internet and elsewhere, including an open “Letter of Recommendation to Kanzeon Zen Center” from 44 American Zen Teachers, which was sent to us directly by Kyogen Carlson of the Dharma Rain Zen Center and posted two days ago on the Sweeping Zen website. Attached is the Kanzeon Board’s response to that letter, which we are sending today to Roshi Gerry Shishin Wick, President, of the White Plum Asanga, and to the American Zen Teachers Association. We trust that they will post our letter on their websites and pass it on to their members. We would also like to remind you of the healing circle meeting tonight in the Zendo at Kanzeon at 7:30. These meetings will not be broadcast or recorded. Once again, we invite you to speak and listen from your heart, and even if you have not been involved in the conversation until now, to join us and participate actively in the healing and rebuilding of our sangha. Sincerely, The Kanzeon Board * To Members of the American Zen Teachers and White Plum Asanga: As members of the Board of Kanzeon Zen Center, we have received many e-mails and phone calls concerning the highly-publicized situation resulting from Genpo Merzel’s admission of his transgressions and sexual misconduct. These communications from Zen teachers in your organizations and others, not to mention open letters and other postings on various social media and internet sites, are filled with advice and recommendations, many of which are beyond the scope of our responsibility as a Board. To the extent that they are motivated by a sincere concern for the survival, healing and rebuilding of our sangha, we would like to share with you an account of some of our efforts to date
Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
Anthony, I was just trying to muscle in on those demon protectors...k --- On Thu, 2/17/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 3:03 AM Kristy, What a relief. I have an ally. Anthony --- On Thu, 17/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:00 PM Steve, Anthony doesn't argue. He reminds me of the first class I enrolled in after my accident. Inward Bound. The professor used an older text: Beyond Health and Normality: Exploration of Exceptional Psychological Well-Being. We had weekly classes for a month.. and then spent six weeks back-packing in the Red Rock Canyons. ;) k Hi Anthony. My goodness, you love to argue! I am not asserting any fixed opinions on the matter, just suggesting possibilities. Please take care, lest you fall into the Klesha of excessive dogmatism. Steve
Re: [Zen] TNH in Thailand
Anthony, I can't believe you wrote this. A complete oxymoron...k --- On Thu, 2/17/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] TNH in Thailand To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 2:51 AM ED, If all human beings are the same, what is the point in striving for enlightenment? Anthony --- On Thu, 17/2/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] TNH in Thailand To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 7:13 AM Anthony, My diagnosis is: Richard Baker is human; TNH is human. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: ED, There are possibilities: TNH does not believe Richard Baker is as bad as critiques say. TNH believes so, but still insists that it is the 'future of Buddhism in the West. In the latter case, I would start setting up orgihouses attached to zen centers. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones
Bill and all, Since we just had a discussion about sex between Teachers and students, I had to pass this along. Bill-- this is getting to be daytime drama-quality. Will Gempo be on Dancing with the Stars next?... k Dear Kanzeon Zen Center Members and Friends, As you are no doubt aware, the situation at Kanzeon has been the subject of a great deal of conversation on the internet and elsewhere, including an open “Letter of Recommendation to Kanzeon Zen Center” from 44 American Zen Teachers, which was sent to us directly by Kyogen Carlson of the Dharma Rain Zen Center and posted two days ago on the Sweeping Zen website. Attached is the Kanzeon Board’s response to that letter, which we are sending today to Roshi Gerry Shishin Wick, President, of the White Plum Asanga, and to the American Zen Teachers Association. We trust that they will post our letter on their websites and pass it on to their members. We would also like to remind you of the healing circle meeting tonight in the Zendo at Kanzeon at 7:30. These meetings will not be broadcast or recorded. Once again, we invite you to speak and listen from your heart, and even if you have not been involved in the conversation until now, to join us and participate actively in the healing and rebuilding of our sangha. Sincerely, The Kanzeon Board * To Members of the American Zen Teachers and White Plum Asanga: As members of the Board of Kanzeon Zen Center, we have received many e-mails and phone calls concerning the highly-publicized situation resulting from Genpo Merzel’s admission of his transgressions and sexual misconduct. These communications from Zen teachers in your organizations and others, not to mention open letters and other postings on various social media and internet sites, are filled with advice and recommendations, many of which are beyond the scope of our responsibility as a Board. To the extent that they are motivated by a sincere concern for the survival, healing and rebuilding of our sangha, we would like to share with you an account of some of our efforts to date. • Feb. 3rd: Shortly after returning from the international sangha meeting in Europe, Genpo Merzel met with the sangha at the Zen Center in Salt Lake City in an open meeting which was widely publicized in advance. He admitted his misconduct (which had already been made public but wasn’t known by all attending), apologized for his actions for which he bears the blame and responsibility, and responded to the pain, anger, concerns, questions, and feelings of his wife, family and sangha members. • Feb. 6th: Genpo Merzel announced he is disrobing as a Soto Zen Buddhist priest, resigning as a member of the White Plum Asanga, acknowledged his own dishonest, hurtful behavior as well as his sexual misconduct, and said he has entered therapy which will continue indefinitely. This statement was posted on his website on Feb. 7th — http://bigmind.org/Responsibility.html. • Feb. 8th: Kanzeon Zen Center announced that Richard Taido Christofferson Sensei will be taking over the teaching functions, training, administration, day-to-day operations, scheduling of all events, ceremonies, retreats, etc. as Vice Abbot and full time resident teacher. Kanzeon and Big Mind (a separate corporate entity) will also separate their websites, and Big Mind will continue as a separate secular practice, not connected with the Soto Zen Buddhist School. This announcement is posted at http://bigmind.org/Home.html. • Feb. 10th: The first of a projected series of council meetings was held with community members who wished to attend and express their feelings and their views on attempts for future healing. • Feb. 13th: Taido Sensei arrived in Salt Lake City to lead a town hall meeting to which all local members were invited. He outlined his vision for the future of Kanzeon under his leadership and responded to the concerns of the audience. • Ongoing: The Board is formulating a Code of Ethics and Guidelines for Procedures addressing issues of misconduct, abuse, and grievances within the sangha, based on models already instituted by other groups. They will be adopted as soon as possible. Further, an e-mail sent to us yesterday by members of your organizations raised six issues, to which we briefly respond as follows: 1. Teaching. Genpo Merzel is taking an indefinite leave of absence of at least a year from Kanzeon. The Board has no authority over Big Mind, Inc. 2. Therapy. This is a matter for health care professionals working with Genpo to determine. This is not within the expertise or purview of the Board. 3. Salt Lake Zen Center. The Board is making every effort to maintain the facilities and keep the Center open for the community. This effort has been hampered by the heated rhetoric coming from the Zen Teacher community, in particular those who have reached out to members of our community to inflame
Re: [Zen] TNH in Thailand
Anthony, I was referring to striving for enlightenment... k --- On Thu, 2/17/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] TNH in Thailand To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 1:27 PM Kristy, Google says, oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms. I don't see mine contains contradictory terms. Anthony --- On Thu, 17/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] TNH in Thailand To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 10:56 PM Anthony, I can't believe you wrote this. A complete oxymoron...k --- On Thu, 2/17/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] TNH in Thailand To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 2:51 AM ED, If all human beings are the same, what is the point in striving for enlightenment? Anthony --- On Thu, 17/2/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] TNH in Thailand To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 7:13 AM Anthony, My diagnosis is: Richard Baker is human; TNH is human. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: ED, There are possibilities: TNH does not believe Richard Baker is as bad as critiques say. TNH believes so, but still insists that it is the 'future of Buddhism in the West. In the latter case, I would start setting up orgihouses attached to zen centers. Anthony
Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
Hi Steve, It was a great experience! The professor is a counselong psychologist, but also a zen priest. The text he used really opened doors for me. As to the challenge-- being a girly-girl, it was my fondness for hot showers and my blow-dryer that almost did me in. But I made it;)~ k --- On Thu, 2/17/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 11:16 AM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Steve,   Anthony doesn't argue. He reminds me of the first class I enrolled in after my accident. Inward Bound.  The professor used an older text: Beyond Health and Normality: Exploration of Exceptional Psychological Well-Being. We had weekly classes for a month.. and then spent six weeks back-packing in the Red Rock Canyons. ;) k  Hi Kristy. That must have been both challenging and fun, just like Anthony! Steve
Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones
Anthony, In light of Gempo's behavior, do you still believe this?.. K IMO, there is no difference. 'Awakening' does not transcend usual sexual standards. It can be reconciled if the time is divided between non awakening time when wild sex is conducted, and awakened period when the guru can transfer his knowledge. There may be a better way which I don't know. Anthony --- On Thu, 2/17/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Sex The Enlightened Ones To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 4:08 PM Dear Kanzeon Zen Center Members and Friends, As you are no doubt aware, the situation at Kanzeon has been the subject of a great deal of conversation on the internet and elsewhere, including an open “Letter of Recommendation to Kanzeon Zen Center” from 44 American Zen Teachers, which was sent to us directly by Kyogen Carlson of the Dharma Rain Zen Center and posted two days ago on the Sweeping Zen website. Attached is the Kanzeon Board’s response to that letter, which we are sending today to Roshi Gerry Shishin Wick, President, of the White Plum Asanga, and to the American Zen Teachers Association. We trust that they will post our letter on their websites and pass it on to their members. We would also like to remind you of the healing circle meeting tonight in the Zendo at Kanzeon at 7:30. These meetings will not be broadcast or recorded. Once again, we invite you to speak and listen from your heart, and even if you have not been involved in the conversation until now, to join us and participate actively in the healing and rebuilding of our sangha. Sincerely, The Kanzeon Board * To Members of the American Zen Teachers and White Plum Asanga: As members of the Board of Kanzeon Zen Center, we have received many e-mails and phone calls concerning the highly-publicized situation resulting from Genpo Merzel’s admission of his transgressions and sexual misconduct. These communications from Zen teachers in your organizations and others, not to mention open letters and other postings on various social media and internet sites, are filled with advice and recommendations, many of which are beyond the scope of our responsibility as a Board. To the extent that they are motivated by a sincere concern for the survival, healing and rebuilding of our sangha, we would like to share with you an account of some of our efforts to date. • Feb. 3rd: Shortly after returning from the international sangha meeting in Europe, Genpo Merzel met with the sangha at the Zen Center in Salt Lake City in an open meeting which was widely publicized in advance. He admitted his misconduct (which had already been made public but wasn’t known by all attending), apologized for his actions for which he bears the blame and responsibility, and responded to the pain, anger, concerns, questions, and feelings of his wife, family and sangha members. • Feb. 6th: Genpo Merzel announced he is disrobing as a Soto Zen Buddhist priest, resigning as a member of the White Plum Asanga, acknowledged his own dishonest, hurtful behavior as well as his sexual misconduct, and said he has entered therapy which will continue indefinitely. This statement was posted on his website on Feb. 7th — http://bigmind.org/Responsibility.html. • Feb. 8th: Kanzeon Zen Center announced that Richard Taido Christofferson Sensei will be taking over the teaching functions, training, administration, day-to-day operations, scheduling of all events, ceremonies, retreats, etc. as Vice Abbot and full time resident teacher. Kanzeon and Big Mind (a separate corporate entity) will also separate their websites, and Big Mind will continue as a separate secular practice, not connected with the Soto Zen Buddhist School. This announcement is posted at http://bigmind.org/Home.html. • Feb. 10th: The first of a projected series of council meetings was held with community members who wished to attend and express their feelings and their views on attempts for future healing. • Feb. 13th: Taido Sensei arrived in Salt Lake City to lead a town hall meeting to which all local members were invited. He outlined his vision for the future of Kanzeon under his leadership and responded to the concerns of the audience. • Ongoing: The Board is formulating a Code of Ethics and Guidelines for Procedures addressing issues of misconduct, abuse, and grievances within the sangha, based on models already instituted by other groups. They will be adopted as soon as possible. Further, an e-mail sent to us yesterday by members of your organizations raised six issues, to which we briefly respond as follows: 1. Teaching. Genpo Merzel is taking an indefinite leave of absence of at least a year from Kanzeon. The Board has no authority over Big Mind, Inc. 2. Therapy. This is a matter for health care
Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
Steve, Anthony doesn't argue. He reminds me of the first class I enrolled in after my accident. Inward Bound. The professor used an older text: Beyond Health and Normality: Exploration of Exceptional Psychological Well-Being. We had weekly classes for a month.. and then spent six weeks back-packing in the Red Rock Canyons. ;) k Hi Anthony. My goodness, you love to argue! I am not asserting any fixed opinions on the matter, just suggesting possibilities. Please take care, lest you fall into the Klesha of excessive dogmatism. Steve
Re: [Zen] Re: Antinomianism
Hi Steve, Actually, I have no interest at all in the egoic power exchange in relationships. This is off-topic for this group, but I welcome the opportunity to discuss this with you . What did fascinate me , and the reason I brought D/s into this thread was how Sally K described the guru relationship. It sounded a little scary to me. But thats me. One of the qualities i am working to develop within myself is trust. This has never come easily for me. Probably why I am such an analytical thinker. It is a block I am working on. But back to to the subject... Surrendering your being to a guru by trusting another to completely shape your inner spiritual developmen (and god knows what else) is uncomfortable for me. There is a correlation to D/s, but there are marked distinctions as well. I don't completely agree with your analysis on submissives and Dominants. Perhaps in some cases, elements of this can be true. But let me give you some background. I learned about D/s, and BDSM 10 + years ago, when I worked with a group of female submissives who had been seriously abused physically and psychologically. Let me be clear, as I do not judge those who choose this lifestyle. What works for others is fine with me, provided it does no lasting harm. I could write a book on this, but fortunately, there are plenty already. You may know some like, Screw the Roses-- Send Me the Thorns, and the like. It was, and is-- a common perception that submissive females were abused in childhood, often with dysfunctional backgrounds including addictions. They may have a history of abusive relationships, and have very low self-esteem. Dominants were perceived as inwardly insecure with volitile emotions about females, that may have begun with their own mothers. The sexual dance they play has been perceived as a means of eroticized therapy, wherein they acts out their own neurotic and narcissitic needs. But its a lot more complex than that. One element I found interesting is that you can't really stereotype the Dominants, and to a degree the subs /slaves. I have known Doms from the inner-city back streets. I also know a CEO of a global insurance compamy that is one. I know a plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills that is. A pediatrician in NC , who is. So, its a complex dynamic, and there are some sexy ideas involved. I can't deny that. D/s never troubled me the way S/m did. I understand intellectually, the S/m dynamic and the endorphin play. Frankly, what goes on in someone's bedroom is none of my business, provided it is consentual, does not involve minors, and does not create a public safety hazard. Not that you are asking, but I certainly have experimented a bit myself in alternative sexual roles. I enjoyed the role of being an odalisque in relationships. This is a sexually submissive female, but involves no S/m at all. There is a very distinct difference between being an odalisque in consentual sexual slavery, and being a sub in BDSM. The odalisque is actuallya luxury item for her partner. She is valued for her sexual beauty and talents, and is always treated with great respect. I'd be lying if I told you that I no longer engage in such play. We do. But I am also older and despite trying to divorce the traditional , loving, and vanilla part of me-- i can't. Those qualities are still part of what makes Kristy--Kristy. So, I engage in both traditional and not-so-traditional sex play. I will offer this.. I find this kind of role-play to be very helpful in gaining a deeper understanding of myself and my partner. Yes-- it is intensely erotic, but also psychologicaly broadening. (So-to-speak;) It helps me to be psychologically naked, which is a lot harder than being physically so. The intimacy that is created is unparalled. But to sum-- I have no interest in the ego part of sex. I believe we should be all that we are. Not one bit more. and not one bit less. Offer all that we are to each other and the world. Never be afraid to make mistakes or appear foolish. Those are actually the times that draw others in, I think. Back to the original topic. Should a Teacher sleep with a discipline? I can only tell you what is right for me. I could never do this. It would compromise my ability to discern more clearly who I am. It would cloud my perception, and very likely-- because sex is something I value highly. I don't cling to it, or obsess about it. Its simply a healthy, normal, happy part of a balanced life. Thanks for your great comments!! Kristy --- On Tue, 2/15/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Kristy. I have meditated on your post, and here are my thoughts. I can see that what really fascinates you is the egoic exchange of power in sexual relationships. IMO, the ego is simply a collection of boundary-lines that don't really exist except in the mind. These
Re: [Zen] TNH in Thailand
Dear Friends, Below are links to information regarding Thay's upcoming tours in Thailand and Taiwan. Thailand March 24 - April 4 http://www.scribd.com/doc/48669948 Taiwan April 8 - 22 http://www.scribd.com/doc/48669871 --- Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: New Members 3 Visit Your Group Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! MARKETPLACE Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog Cat Answers Center. Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .
Re: [Zen] Re: Antinomianism
Steve, Thank you for bring this up. I have been working on an e-mail to Anthony, (and all here), on this topic, but i am behind on mail. I will catch up and respond to JM and Mayka, as well as to add my comments to the article I attach below later. An interesting article in Trycycle this spring too. Will follow later.. Its intriguing to discuss a controversial topic. Here is the article: Kristy In Defense of Promiscuity Posted February 7th, 2011 by Jun Po Kelly Roshi in Integral Post Share180 Should spiritual teachers sleep with their students? It seems this is a question whose time has come. Every worldview has a very strong option on this. Red says “Of course!” Amber usually says “No!”, but on occasion “Yes!” if the mythology permits it. Orange will say “yes,” but that decision is related to “status” (both the teacher’s and the student’s). Green screams “NO” and points to the lack of a “level playing field”, lecturing about the (im)balance of power, especially if the teacher is a man (oppressor) and the student a woman (oppressed). So what says the Integralist? Let’s start with the act itself. Sexuality is sacred. This is where the genders, the two faces, little god-man Adam and little god-woman Eve actually touch faces, and through that embrace reincarnate. Magical thinking and mythic beliefs tell us that our egos will continue through the Law of Karma—good boys and girls get to be reborn as spiritually-aware people, bad boys and girls are forced into painful rebirths to burn and purge their sins. The real truth of reincarnation is not based on subtle-state fixation or the ego’s desire to perpetuate itself beyond its death, or on Amber superstitions that promise an eternity of rebirths and ever-increasing happiness to True Believers. Reincarnation is the sacred sexual act of divine union, where sex leads to pregnancy, pregnancy leads to birth, and birth leads to a newly embodied spirit that is not your son, not your daughter, but rather is two-who-have-become-one. As above, so below. In a true Tantric embrace of sexuality with a partner, the small self is transcended as you become one with the Divine—there is no separate self, no isolated ego, no other. And out of this real-world karma a child can be born, a child who is literally two-who-have-become-one, a combination of genes and impulses passed down equally from each parent, karma in-action. Dance, dance, dance and lose your small selves within this passionate emergent sexual embrace that promises such powerful real-world karma! Divinely, unconditionally love, surrender your egos, dance and coming together, disappear into your wondrous mini version of that first big bang orgasm. This is part of what makes sex so sacred, but many things stand in the way of us seeing it. We are blinded to the sacred nature of sexuality because of many different obstacles: our animal nature, tempting us to do all manner of reckless things; Puritanical ideas about monogamy and self-sacrifice; greed and selfishness that tempt us to hoard lovers and experiences; lust that takes us out of our divinity and out of our hearts; denial of our sexual and deeply sensual nature; jealousy’s distortions that turn love into a spasm of need and contraction; the politics of sex, where power and control reign supreme; and ignorance of the truth of the ephemeral gift of life, which is nothing less than Unconditional Love manifest. All of these distortions of the sacred nature of sex are rooted in the belief that our egos are real. We believe that our reactions to external stimuli are who we are; we believe that we have permanence in this world; we believe in a future for ourselves and our desires. What we do not see is that our egos—us—are wholly conditioned, Pavlovian responses that are triggered without consciousness or free will. Someone cuts you off in traffic, and you get pissed off and think “this is who I am”. “I’m someone who gets pissed off in traffic,” goes your story. The truth is that no one made me angry, getting pissed off is merely a valuated, unconscious conditioned reaction, and this reaction prevents you from experiencing who you really are. A pretty woman talks to you, and you feel desire, lust, curiosity, and ten other emotions arise within you—and then a conditioned reaction occurs. Or you sit in front of an attractive spiritual teacher, emotions arise, and a conditioned reaction occurs. In both cases, there is an emotional stimulation that is too often followed by unconscious chosen response. Our conditioning makes the choice instead of us making the choice, and compassion, love, and wisdom are left outside the door. What we need is a different philosophical construct to redefine our neurolinguistic reaction to the most powerful stimuli in our lives, the places where conditioning binds us and those we love. We first need to
Re: [Zen] Re: Antinomianism
Anthony, Steve and all, I read the attached article, and listened to Sally Kempton's podcast on this: (link below-- see #7). Here are some thoughts to ponder... Sounds True: Insights at the Edge - Download free podcast episodes ... Download or subscribe to free podcast episodes from Sounds True: Insights at the Edge by Tami Simon on iTunes. itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/sounds-true-insights...edge/id307934313 - Cached In both, there is an examination of the guru or teacher -discipline relationship. (For those who listen you can start in about 11 min, and go to about 25 min, if rushed). She is in her late 60's, with 40+ years on the spiritual path, and is trained in the Kundalini Awakening /Swami-as-guru style). She points out the teacher /disciple relationship is one of intense commitment. She needed a guru as she felt that the reason for a guru is because of the transmission that is conferred. The guru can offer a clear mirror to the student, whereby the difference between one's deluded and dualistic, ego-driven self, and the clarity of your essential self. The guru takes total spiritual responsibility for the student, who then surrenders all spirituality authority. The teacher assumes responsibility for the student's awakening experience, according to her. They make a profound and intense commitment to each other. in her case, she had an abolute guru. This reminds me of a D/s-type relationship. (dominance - submissive). One has absolute control and authority, and the other submits to the Dom's guidance / direction , with complete obedience. All i can say is that this requires a lot of trust.. or naiveté, depending on your perspective. ~ Switching gears to the article attached below~ In my translation of the Bhagavad Gita, it says we have total control over our actions, but no control over the fruits of our actions. Anthony, what do you think of his impression of karma? I think sex can be sacred as it is so very intimate. But I don't believe it must always attach loyalty or fidelity. Is there not a place for carnal lusty, sensation-driven experiences? Emotions like love can co-exist, but must they? Can it be a simple exchange of each giving and receiving what they seeK? Or not? What do you think of his tantric interpretation? Back to the teacher / discipline relation and sex. Is this any different than if I slept with a boss, or college professor? If so-- how? Does spirituality or awakening somehow connote something that trancends the usual standards in the power exchang, between an authority figure and a studet / employee / child, and the like? Doesn't it depend on the intention? At work, is it a paycheck, a raise, a wedding ring, an orgasm, I am seeking? In a guru, amIi seeking satori? There is an exchange of information, or money, or spiritual discipline, or any of a thousand different possibilities. How do we define a moral construct about this, and should we? This is fascinating stuff! *s* I do indeed have more comments, but i have to dash to a meeting. Look forward to others thoughts! Be well.. Kristy From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Antinomianism To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 6:07 PM Steve, Thank you for bring this up. I have been working on an e-mail to Anthony, (and all here), on this topic, but i am behind on mail. I will catch up and respond to JM and Mayka, as well as to add my comments to the article I attach below later. An interesting article in Trycycle this spring too. Will follow later.. Its intriguing to discuss a controversial topic. Here is the article: Kristy In Defense of Promiscuity Posted February 7th, 2011 by Jun Po Kelly Roshi in Integral Post Share180 Should spiritual teachers sleep with their students? It seems this is a question whose time has come. Every worldview has a very strong option on this. Red says “Of course!” Amber usually says “No!”, but on occasion “Yes!” if the mythology permits it. Orange will say “yes,” but that decision is related to “status” (both the teacher’s and the student’s). Green screams “NO” and points to the lack of a “level playing field”, lecturing about the (im)balance of power, especially if the teacher is a man (oppressor) and the student a woman (oppressed). So what says the Integralist? Let’s start with the act itself. Sexuality is sacred. This is where the genders, the two faces, little god-man Adam and little god-woman Eve actually touch faces, and through that embrace reincarnate. Magical thinking and mythic beliefs tell us that our egos will continue through the Law of Karma—good boys and girls get to be reborn as spiritually-aware people, bad boys and girls are forced into painful rebirths to burn and purge their sins. The real truth of reincarnation is not based on subtle-state fixation or the ego’s
Re: [Zen] Re: Antinomianism
Ed, Steve, You both make excellent points, and be aware that I was proposing an open perspective, as a discussion topic. Of course, I would never support exploitation or manipulation. You are saying there is no one right answer. I agree. But at the same time, can there be a middle way here? Doesn't sex compromise the ability to focus on one's journey or zen path? One comment on the testerone-thing. I have mentioned this here before, but while I do think its wise for males to make gains in their compassion, empathy and sensitivity to self and others, I am troubled by the trend in recent decades to 'feminize men. You are who you are-- hormones, included. I'm not advocating rape, but like all things, embracing all that one is, and isn't-- seems the healthy way to find a balanced form of self-regulation as well as self-acceptance. But perhaps that was what you were saying. Interesting speculation on all this, though, I think. Thanks.. k --- On Mon, 2/14/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Antinomianism To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 9:13 PM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Anthony, Steve and all, ~ Switching gears to the article attached below~ In my translation of the Bhagavad Gita, it says we have total control over our actions, but no control over the fruits of our actions. Anthony, what do you think of his impression of karma? I think sex can be sacred as it is so very intimate. I think it is a matter of perspective, and is subjective. But I don't believe it must always attach loyalty or fidelity. Is there not a place for carnal lusty, sensation-driven experiences? Emotions like love can co-exist, but must they? Can it be a simple exchange of each giving and receiving what they seek? Or not? In our time, each couple can establish its own values and make its own rules - and nothing will work in the long run! :-( What do you think of his tantric interpretation? http://integrallife.com/member/jun-po-kelly-roshi/blog/defense-promiscuity Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html
Re: [Zen] visualization
Hi Mayka, All of us has.. Since i, and you, have experienced this.. I will fly you to CA, and pay you a fee, though the classes are free for patients. Its time for you to teach.. I will be teaching, and my husband, as well as 14 other physicians will be involved. Please send me privately your pain management experience and your qualifications. This isn't a joke. I just finished a grant. Mayka.. put up or shut up. Bill.. I'm happy to bow out here.. My life is real.. This-- But , Mayka, if you can demonatrate that you have real verified credentials-- the offer stands.. I'd love to meet you, and work with you. I'll will fwd your info to the committee. They must approve your involvement.. and I hope they do. Contact me privatey if this is of interest. Thanks, Kristy --- On Sat, 2/12/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 12:20 AM Several years ago I followed a program by a Hospital with high credibility in Edinburgh. They were experiencing with pain management. I went into agreement with the directorate to be one of their patients they experiment with. Their team was composed by psicologists, phisiotherapists, therapistsIt was the directorate himself who took me under his experimentation. My experience about that was that they heard bells somewhere but then they just repeat to the patien what they heard. They were lacking of the real insight that only comes through the practice of sitting down carried out away of the cushion to the ordinary life. In cases like this it's unluckily they can help anyone for real as far as pain management concerns. If anyone on this website suffers from physical pain, I might be able to help. There is nothing better than someone who is in the boat of pain and have managed to manage it. I have gained through the years some personal experience here. Mayka --- On Fri, 11/2/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: Re: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 1:18 Kristy, A good example of a zen style pain-managment would be the scene in FIGHT CLUB where Brad Pitt pours lye on Ed Norton's hand and then guides him gently through some what I call zen-style pain managment. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Anthony,  So zen is anything not dualistic. I'm not a zen scholar, and the way I practice zen includes compassionate service, and ethical conduct. So, technically, my zen practice is not authentic zen.  Oh well.  I first learned about visualization froma book called Creative Visualization , from the 70's era. In recent years, there have been many healing therapies that use it. The violet flame, for example. I am learning as I go along how incredible powerful the mind really is. Sometimes visualization is called the placebo-effect. Here's an example. In a meta-analysis on studies on depression, it has been demonstrated that use of anti-depressants for mild -to moderate depression , is no more effective, than if given a placebo. If you believe it works-- it can. (Meta-analaysis is a study of studies).  Here's another..  In my pain management class with seniors ;), I will arrive the first day with a surfboard and related equipment. When I introduce myself, I will welcome everyone, and tell them how excited I am they are interested in  learning how to surf! I'll go on for a few minutes about the number of years I've been doing it, and boy-- are they gonna love it!  As they look at me as if I've lost my mind, we will laugh a bit, and in effect--it creates a paradigm shift. If I believe they can do it, ( and I do), they will too--in time. First, I will take them into a relaxation visualization with their breath. Its the first step in a process.  In Santa Barbara, it will probably be roller-blades, or hiking gear. In Utah, with cardiac patients, it will be a pair of skis, wax, and files, as if I were leading a Tune Your Own Skis class.  Isn't it possible to begin with two halves and unify them into one? So, maybe beginning with dualism isn't so bad? To me-- all of this is zen. I don't have to define its boundaries in that way.  My two cents.. *s* k    On Thu, 2/10/11, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: From: Anthony Wu wuasg@... Subject: Re: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 2:44 PM  Brett,  I did for about a year and gave up. That, no doubt, can be a good practice. But it is not zen.  Anthony --- On Fri, 11/2/11, artist brettalancorbin@... wrote: From: artist
Re: [Zen] visualization
Hi Mayka, I see. Well, take care, and hope you get to CA sometime anyway:) .. k --- On Sat, 2/12/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 6:07 AM Thank you K...for your response. My only credentials are myself direct experience with pain and the way I have managed to manage it through the years. I have no more credentials than that. I'm not involved in any group or teach to anyone this. My offer was an spontaneous and natural offer to do to others who may be in physical pain. Nothing else. I'm not graduate in anything to do with pain. I haven't read books about it either. I offered only my personal experience with it which might be useful or might be not. However, thank you so much for your offer and think it over. Mayka --- On Sat, 12/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 12 February, 2011, 9:27 Hi Mayka, All of us has.. Since i, and you, have experienced this.. I will fly you to CA, and pay you a fee, though the classes are free for patients. Its time for you to teach.. I will be teaching, and my husband, as well as 14 other physicians will be involved. Please send me privately your pain management experience and your qualifications. This isn't a joke. I just finished a grant. Mayka.. put up or shut up. Bill.. I'm happy to bow out here.. My life is real.. This-- But , Mayka, if you can demonatrate that you have real verified credentials-- the offer stands.. I'd love to meet you, and work with you. I'll will fwd your info to the committee. They must approve your involvement.. and I hope they do. Contact me privatey if this is of interest. Thanks, Kristy --- On Sat, 2/12/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 12:20 AM Several years ago I followed a program by a Hospital with high credibility in Edinburgh. They were experiencing with pain management. I went into agreement with the directorate to be one of their patients they experiment with. Their team was composed by psicologists, phisiotherapists, therapistsIt was the directorate himself who took me under his experimentation. My experience about that was that they heard bells somewhere but then they just repeat to the patien what they heard. They were lacking of the real insight that only comes through the practice of sitting down carried out away of the cushion to the ordinary life. In cases like this it's unluckily they can help anyone for real as far as pain management concerns. If anyone on this website suffers from physical pain, I might be able to help. There is nothing better than someone who is in the boat of pain and have managed to manage it. I have gained through the years some personal experience here. Mayka --- On Fri, 11/2/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: Re: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 1:18 Kristy, A good example of a zen style pain-managment would be the scene in FIGHT CLUB where Brad Pitt pours lye on Ed Norton's hand and then guides him gently through some what I call zen-style pain managment. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Anthony,  So zen is anything not dualistic. I'm not a zen scholar, and the way I practice zen includes compassionate service, and ethical conduct. So, technically, my zen practice is not authentic zen.  Oh well.  I first learned about visualization froma book called Creative Visualization , from the 70's era. In recent years, there have been many healing therapies that use it. The violet flame, for example. I am learning as I go along how incredible powerful the mind really is. Sometimes visualization is called the placebo-effect. Here's an example. In a meta-analysis on studies on depression, it has been demonstrated that use of anti-depressants for mild -to moderate depression , is no more effective, than if given a placebo. If you believe it works-- it can. (Meta-analaysis is a study of studies).  Here's another..  In my pain management class with seniors ;), I will arrive the first day with a surfboard and related equipment. When I introduce myself, I will welcome everyone, and tell them how excited I am they are interested in  learning how to surf! I'll go on for a few minutes about the number of years I've been doing it, and boy-- are they gonna love it! Â
Re: [Zen] Pain
Hi JM, Sounds very interesting.. I would love to learn about his work. You are welcome to share this off-list if you prefer. Have a great weekend.. k --- On Sat, 2/12/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Pain To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 9:14 AM Hi Kristy, In Los Angeles, I have known a Shao-Lin Monk, with hair, for about 20 years. He graduated from the Nature's Gate of Shao Lin. I have introduced to him about 40 some people with many different kinds of pain. And usually he cures them within four weeks. And most of these patients continue to introduce their friends. His methods are rather crude, but it is very effective. His theory, wherever the chi is stuck, there is pain. Acupuncture needles are designed for tuning up internal organs. His methods are designed for tendons, joints, muscles, etc. If you are interested, I can get his references. I have heard without verification that his Teacher worked at Elizabeth Hospital in Hong Kong treating special cases. My friends who I introduce to, can testify to his unique and effective treatments. Let me know your thoughts. There could be language issues. If so, I can find someone to help for this good cause. JM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
Re: [Zen] Re: Opportunity and Confusion
Audrey, I can recommend a couple of books that can help.. (1) Zen and the Art of Making a Living-- Laurence Boldt It offers many tools to help clarify your purpose, talents and skills as you find what is right for you, in the context of your own values. Its a workbook. Probably available in libraries, career placement services, and even in vocational rehab centers, as well as bookstores. (2) Books by Barara Sher-- a career counselor, such as Refuse to Choose, and Wishcraft. Solid information, inventories and worksheets. Ask yourself what you love doing, even if you were not paid. That can reveal your heart desires and dormant dreams. If that doesn't come to you, flip it, and ask what hurt, pain or frustration you see in the world that really gets your emotional attention. This is along the lines of whose pain do you feel. Be the change you want to see in the world kind-of-thing. Meeting with a counselor can help you get clearer about who you are, and how to take your dreams and heart out of the deep freeze. But i would start with going thru some check-lists and inventories you find in the books above. Monster.com has some resources, but given your presence here, I think its nice to use resources that support your values and practice. Good luck. k --- On Fri, 2/11/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Opportunity and Confusion To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 12:44 AM Audrey, I don't have any answers for you but do hope you take full advantage of this wonderful opportunity. In the long run it probably isn't as important on just what your specific choice is as you now think. The most important factor is that whatever you do you put your whole being into it. If you do that you can't go wrong. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, audreydc1983 audreydc1983@... wrote: Unable to find employment, as a last-ditch effort, I decided to take advantage of the Vocational Rehabilitation program at the VA (Veteran's Administration). I qualified for the program, which includes payment of tuition, books, supplies, and a modest monthly stipend - all to the end of getting me into an entry-level position in a career field that is fulfilling, challenging, and appropriate for my disability. (My knees are injured from my short stint in the Marine Corps). The problem lies in finding out what I want to DO. So - why am I posting this here? I've realized that I never knew what I wanted to do. I never knew who I really was, and what role I desired. I just floated by on the river of life, and grabbed whatever happened to drift by. Jobs for me were always a means to an end...money. Now that I have a chance to find a fulfilling job/career, I find I have no idea what I want. I was lost, and I didn't even know it. Does anyone out there have suggestions on how I could reach a modicum of clarity on this issue? I'm stumped. My natural instinct is to try to force an answer - and when none comes, I get frustrated. I've tried a couple of tools, the Myers-Briggs Personality test (INFJ), and the Temperament test (Theorist) for some answers, but the answers were vague and elusive. I'm truly stumped. :S ~Audrey
Re: [Zen] visualization
Anthony, So zen is anything not dualistic. I'm not a zen scholar, and the way I practice zen includes compassionate service, and ethical conduct. So, technically, my zen practice is not authentic zen. Oh well. I first learned about visualization froma book called Creative Visualization , from the 70's era. In recent years, there have been many healing therapies that use it. The violet flame, for example. I am learning as I go along how incredible powerful the mind really is. Sometimes visualization is called the placebo-effect. Here's an example. In a meta-analysis on studies on depression, it has been demonstrated that use of anti-depressants for mild -to moderate depression , is no more effective, than if given a placebo. If you believe it works-- it can. (Meta-analaysis is a study of studies). Here's another.. In my pain management class with seniors ;), I will arrive the first day with a surfboard and related equipment. When I introduce myself, I will welcome everyone, and tell them how excited I am they are interested in learning how to surf! I'll go on for a few minutes about the number of years I've been doing it, and boy-- are they gonna love it! As they look at me as if I've lost my mind, we will laugh a bit, and in effect--it creates a paradigm shift. If I believe they can do it, ( and I do), they will too--in time. First, I will take them into a relaxation visualization with their breath. Its the first step in a process. In Santa Barbara, it will probably be roller-blades, or hiking gear. In Utah, with cardiac patients, it will be a pair of skis, wax, and files, as if I were leading a Tune Your Own Skis class. Isn't it possible to begin with two halves and unify them into one? So, maybe beginning with dualism isn't so bad? To me-- all of this is zen. I don't have to define its boundaries in that way. My two cents.. *s* k On Thu, 2/10/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 2:44 PM Brett, I did for about a year and gave up. That, no doubt, can be a good practice. But it is not zen. Anthony --- On Fri, 11/2/11, artist brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: artist brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 5:01 AM I was just wondering if anyone here uses any visualization practises in their meditation. Brett.
Re: [Zen] Lotus Posture Awareness
JM, Thanks for this! i would agree with Bill about the boredom-thing, and their need for novelty and distraction. people don't know how to simply be anymore. like the old saying abouta human-doing rather than a human-being. it seems that often people are afraid of themselves. Like doing nothing is the biggest fear of all. The whole concept of chi is very interesting to me. It has different connotations in different cultures. I have great interest in what is known as 'heart energy, and i could write on about this, but my time is short now. I may expand on this soon, and when i do, will welcome your feedback. *bows*.. Kristy --- On Thu, 2/10/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Lotus Posture Awareness To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 8:04 AM Hi Kristy, Well, it is not just westerners. For the last ten years, our statistics shows about 80 percent of the people quit after 2 sessions, Asian or American. The reasons being meditation is like detoxing our habits... a cold turkey feeling. The first few months are tough, especially our stringent requirement in sitting. :-) I am not sure of your definition for awareness. Let me use mine.. According to Traditional Chinese Medicine, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Treasures_(traditional_Chinese_medicine) Awareness is Shen or like our inner god, spirit, focus, clarity Shen is supported by Chi or energy or liveliness. In other words, if we are tired, we can think clearly and we can not focus. In our practice, awareness is cultivated gradually as the chi is enhanced. In my experience, awareness gradually broadens its sensitivity as well as its region. Meaning it starts on breathing, then on chakra, then on energy channel, then on mind, then on spirit. When it is able to be aware of our spirit, then it become a holistic, whole body and mind kind of awareness, an integrated complete oneness internally and externally. We call that state of being synchronization to the universal energy and wisdom. That's how Buddha transmits from heart to heart. Historically western medicine is compartmentalized, the Chinese medicine is integrated. Same applies to the term of awareness, it includes our body, mind and spirit as one. If you are still around the Bay area, we have a meditation center in Milpitas located at 1782 Clear Lake Ave #248, Milpitas, CA There is an English session at 2pm every Saturday with about 6-7 non-Asian. Feel free to contact Mr. Yenkang Liu 14082069325. Thank you for the opportunity to share. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 2/9/2011 11:34 AM, Kristy McClain wrote: Hi JM, Thanks for posting this! Very interesting. As a westerner practicing zazen, there is often a difference in training, and its always helpful to learn how its done in other countries and traditions. I was very intrigued by the chi-flow guidelines you mention here. Do you have many westerners at your school, and is there a difference in how they are able to acclimate to the teachings and practices? Meaning-- is there any more, or less resistance to the process and teaching models? My experience in the USA , has been that many students here don't like being uncomfortable, and are easily discouraged if there is not meaningful or fast progress in their practice. (Patience is not a typical American value, it often seems). One other note.. when I was in college in Palo Alto, (CA), I took a course from a buddhist priest who was on-loan from the SF zen center. He taught the fundamental principles of posture for zazen. Being young and fit, I was able to sit in half-lotus with no discomfort the first time I tried it, and could get into full lotus, but chose not to sit that way back then. But the practice was new to me, so I had little knowledge or awareness about the contemplative path. My question? Does posture lead to the awareness, or does the awareness come first in your experience? In my case, I didn't have the maturity to really understand, or embrace the practice. It was not until after my car accident and recovery, that I found a deeper understanding. Thanks, k --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Lotus Posture To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 9:00 AM Good morning to all, In our school, we have a practitioner named Dr. Jing Lun Huang. One of his research paper told us, measured through scientific instruments, the chi flow enhanced through acupuncture needle is three times the average speed of a normal flow. Half lotus enhances the chi flow by 8 times
Re: [Zen] visualization
Brett, This makes a lot of sense to me. When you write about Alaska, I can feel it. You are actually creating a zendo in your mind. Your last statement here tells me that you are doing what Bill does. You are not attached to your vision or thoughts. To the contrary-- they simply flow on. One thing I have found is that people who have a good imagination, and are visually-oriented , do better at this. It is difficult for me, as I am not good at creating pictures in my head.. with one exception, but it is not relevant to this discussion. Its said that males are more visually-oriented, so I am wondering if men are better at this. Its a curious idea. Thanks for sharing.. ~ k --- On Thu, 2/10/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 4:41 PM I have been using visualization lately and have been finding it to be very helpful. What I do is, I go in to my normal meditation, focusing in on my breathing, when I start calming down and become aware, I visualize myself in a place I remember from my childhood. It is in southeast Alaska, in the mountains over looking the ocean, a very beautiful place indeed. In my mind I picture myself there, and try to really experience it like I am really there, observing the view, feeling the sun, and things like that. Then I find a place to sit on the ground in this place, and I go right into my meditation. It is kind of weird, but for some reason I do not get attacked by my thoughts as much this way, and also I seem to have deeper experience this way. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On Thu, 2/10/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 3:11 PM Anthony, So zen is anything not dualistic. I'm not a zen scholar, and the way I practice zen includes compassionate service, and ethical conduct. So, technically, my zen practice is not authentic zen. Oh well. I first learned about visualization froma book called Creative Visualization , from the 70's era. In recent years, there have been many healing therapies that use it. The violet flame, for example. I am learning as I go along how incredible powerful the mind really is. Sometimes visualization is called the placebo-effect. Here's an example. In a meta-analysis on studies on depression, it has been demonstrated that use of anti-depressants for mild -to moderate depression , is no more effective, than if given a placebo. If you believe it works-- it can. (Meta-analaysis is a study of studies). Here's another.. In my pain management class with seniors ;), I will arrive the first day with a surfboard and related equipment. When I introduce myself, I will welcome everyone, and tell them how excited I am they are interested in learning how to surf! I'll go on for a few minutes about the number of years I've been doing it, and boy-- are they gonna love it! As they look at me as if I've lost my mind, we will laugh a bit, and in effect--it creates a paradigm shift. If I believe they can do it, ( and I do), they will too--in time. First, I will take them into a relaxation visualization with their breath. Its the first step in a process. In Santa Barbara, it will probably be roller-blades, or hiking gear. In Utah, with cardiac patients, it will be a pair of skis, wax, and files, as if I were leading a Tune Your Own Skis class. Isn't it possible to begin with two halves and unify them into one? So, maybe beginning with dualism isn't so bad? To me-- all of this is zen. I don't have to define its boundaries in that way. My two cents.. *s* k On Thu, 2/10/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 2:44 PM Brett, I did for about a year and gave up. That, no doubt, can be a good practice. But it is not zen. Anthony --- On Fri, 11/2/11, artist brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: artist brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] visualization To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 11 February, 2011, 5:01 AM I was just wondering if anyone here uses any visualization practises in their meditation. Brett. It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
Re: [Zen] zazen, satori seekers(to Kristy/list)
Hi Mel, Reading your words below reminds me why I've never looked for a guru. There are many reasons, some of which I am writing in a post to Anthony , along with an article. But perhaps the problem lies in the seeking itself. Looking for answers, security, guidance, protection.. Is a matter of not wanting to really grow up, and leave our parents. Is it that scary to be responsible for our own actions and happiness. I think, for me-- sure it is. But I learned one thing after a bad accident. Mo one can do the work for us. It does take some courage, and a belief that we are okay as we are, and move on. Thanks.. k --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au wrote: As you say well, it isn't about looking like buddha, but being the buddha we are, ourselves. This is the BIG problem with the satori seekers. They think satori is outside there somewhere, which is reached through mere thinking and analysis, and nothing else. For such characters to be told that satori is here and now and not later or somewhere else is just too incredible to accept. We as the Zen community receive such teaching time and again. The message is given well and clearly, but the modern Western man/woman has difficulty not only accepting it but also living with it Buddha be praised Mel
Re: [Zen] Lotus Posture
Hi JM, Thanks for posting this! Very interesting. As a westerner practicing zazen, there is often a difference in training, and its always helpful to learn how its done in other countries and traditions. I was very intrigued by the chi-flow guidelines you mention here. Do you have many westerners at your school, and is there a difference in how they are able to acclimate to the teachings and practices? Meaning-- is there any more, or less resistance to the process and teaching models? My experience in the USA , has been that many students here don't like being uncomfortable, and are easily discouraged if there is not meaningful or fast progress in their practice. (Patience is not a typical American value, it often seems). One other note.. when I was in college in Palo Alto, (CA), I took a course from a buddhist priest who was on-loan from the SF zen center. He taught the fundamental principles of posture for zazen. Being young and fit, I was able to sit in half-lotus with no discomfort the first time I tried it, and could get into full lotus, but chose not to sit that way back then. But the practice was new to me, so I had little knowledge or awareness about the contemplative path. My question? Does posture lead to the awareness, or does the awareness come first in your experience? In my case, I didn't have the maturity to really understand, or embrace the practice. It was not until after my car accident and recovery, that I found a deeper understanding. Thanks, k --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Lotus Posture To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 9:00 AM Good morning to all, In our school, we have a practitioner named Dr. Jing Lun Huang. One of his research paper told us, measured through scientific instruments, the chi flow enhanced through acupuncture needle is three times the average speed of a normal flow. Half lotus enhances the chi flow by 8 times. Full lotus enhances the chi flow by 24 times. Now why is chi flow important. When the Middle Channel, Ren Du, is open and flowing, we can enter stillness quicker and deeper. Personally speaking, when I am in half lotus, my spine is bit slanted, because one leg is higher than the other. I don't sit as long and not as comfortable. When I am in full lotus, my chi flows through both legs equally. I feel a more solid base as well as entering into a state of full chi without sensing my physical body faster. Therefore deeper. We recommend three ways to sit. On a chair is for those had surgery or injury on the hip or knees. But the spine must be straight without leaning on the back of the chair. For those may have sore back, weak knees, arthritis, natural illness without surgery or injury. On the floor with a cushion to raise the hip by about 2-3 inches, so that the knees are lower than the hip. This reduces the strain on the lower back and enable the spine to be straight. Then slowly lower the cushion as practice continues. We have plenty of witness informed us that these symptoms can be self-healed after dedicated practice by following our instructions. Everyone else, half lotus is a minimum. May begin with easy lotus, cross legged, but half lotus is minimum.These are our experience and instructions through out all our classes for your reference. JMJM Hear Teacher Order of Chan -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen
Bill and Chris, Thank you both for sharing your experience and links. This is exactly what I was hoping to learn. One can google the topic, and find lots of info, but I wanted the advice from people who actually use the postures or equipment. Thats the only valid experience. Chris, I have also experienced what you have with your bike. As a runner, I have often been so stiff that there was no way that I could even sit with crossed legs. I had to use a chair, so I have to ponder what my priority was, or is. I'm still thinking on this. When I was in Japan, I kinda got the mountainering-bug. Wondering if I am too old to learn how to climb. I did a little of that years ago as I was growing up in a resort setting that offered those opportunities. I had a great friend who later went on to a career in search--and rescue, as an accomplished mountain-climber. I'm straying from the topic, but your words, (and recent poem), made me think again about zen-in-motion. There's all kinds of walking meditation. You can do it fishing.. painting.. cooking..climbing. For me, these are all authentic forms of zazen. I think of Buddhism as an experimental practice, and the benefits are available for us to try without necessarily having a mental model of why the benefits are there. I agree.. Thanks again to you both.. Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 12:47 AM Kristy, Here's a good link for your that has all the sitting devices I've seen used http://www.zafu.net/whichcush.html. When I talked about the kneeling position (sieza) I was referring to 4th photo (from top to bottom) on this page. The important thing is that you are comfortable, you are not straining to keep your balance and that you are in a good posture for opening up your hips to promote 'belly breathing'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Bill, Anthony,  I wondered if you, or others here, can recommend equipment or furniture (chairs /benches and such), that has worked well for people who can no longer, (or never have) been able to use a safu in a traditional sitting posture.   For those  with less flexability, or have arthritis, back /joint pain, and the rest.  I am wondering if using a safu on the chair is necessary to achieve the proper zazen state, and how it affects the duration of time and frequency of the sitting practice.  I suppose I'm asking about the quality of the zazen experience for them There has always so much insistence on posture. Any thoughts?  Thanks,  Kristy    TV dinner still cooling? Check out Tonight's Picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/
Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list)
Hi Mel, *chuckles* Thanks for your frank appraisal on this. You bring up many good points. thanks for mentioning the stool.. I hadn't thought about that. With the group, I will be working with, that won't work for all of them, but its is a real possibility for some. For those who can, it offers the bonus of working with their balance. Do we know for sure that Buddha didn't sit on a stump under the bodhi tree? *s* Having had my share of injuries, including a broken ankle along with several surgical complications, I have often used a chair over the years, though I always used a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do not, I can see that it may not be necessary for proper zazen, which is good because I don't have enough for all of people in my class. The class is for seniors, and will include zazen, mindfulness and breathwork, as part of a pain management program. Though it is my hope they find it relevant to their own inner awareness. I--too, have encountered people in my sanghi's over the years who tend to think their pretzel posture somehow elevated their status above the rest of us. As you say well, it isn't about looking like buddha, but being the buddha we are, ourselves. For myself, I'm finding that I am having random moments of that now, but not as much as before. I have my own frustration s and personal problems, and have been pretty cynical in recent months. But like all things-- this, too , will pass. Thanks again, Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au wrote: From: Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au Subject: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) To: zen forum Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 12:17 AM Hi Kristy and all I personally don't know how the traditional full or half lotus, or Burmese positions, help in getting back to the original I, or Big Mind. If I had been born, raised, and educated from within a devout Buddhist family, I'm sure I would have been introduced into the full lotus position from since a very young age. However, I discovered Zen in my 20s 20-25 years ago. At best, I can do the Burmese position, but with my arthritis and lack of flexibility, I often use a chairin fact a plastic stool I bought for AUS$10. It works just fine I often end up working much harder(read...right effort) in keeping my posture straight when I sit on the above chair, which by the way, has no back rest. It's high enough to keep the thighs almost parallel to the floor, and quite comfortable. In the Burmese posture, I have noticed occasionally that I sway like a coconut tree in the middle of a tropical tyhoon when I'm not well-rested enough. To keep the posture straight is important, Doing so doesn't cause any back problems because one is actually using the appropriate muscles and right effort to keep the back straigtht. Keeping the back straight whilst leaning on something tend to cause me more problems myself I've been wanting to tell many that if the Buddha had a chair to sit on, he would have. He has already tried the ascetic way and it didn't work. I have never received any info that was otherwise. I doubt that punishing the body unnecessarily was what he had in mind. People look at his statue here and there and unnecessarily think to themselves that sitting in such a way is a must. In big letters...IT IS NOT. They want to look like him, be like him...but in fact, it's more important to be ourselves. With the Zen teachings, I again have yet to see otherwise. I'm beginning to suspect these days that the 'seating arrangements' have more to do with pride so so-and-so can say to all...'look, I look just like the Buddha right now!'which I think is very misguided thinking. I wouldn't be surprised today if there are many out there who have caused themselves all sorts of knee and/or hip problems because they so much wanted to look just like the Buddha himself, because even the supposedly easier Burmese position can cause problems. For all I know, the old fella is probably giggling himself to no end in his grave at such dualistic notions in today's modern civilization Just my thoughts Buddha be praised Mel
Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah
Hi Deborah, Thank you for this! Please know that I do not refer to these terrific people as senior citizens! I love older people, and have since childhood, with my gammy as the best role model a child could have. in fact, that was my first career choice--exercise gerontology. I did not mean to be politically incorrect here, nor to stereotype. To the contrary! I used the word seniors as a short-hand reference, but actually-- 55-75 is middle aged these days. I haven't looked at the demographics recently, but at one time, 85+ was the fastest growing age sector. I also agree that taking care of yourself, staying active, and having a meditation, prayer or other contemplative practice keeps us young. In this case, they are all in some form of out-patient therapy, so this is just an adjunct. It sounds like you are doing great, and finally they have a name and a diagnosis for your situation. Question-- didn't they approve a medication not too long ago for Fibromyalia? Any thoughts on that? Would love you to come here to teach this class!! Be well.. Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Deborah Mingins taomtnsa...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Deborah Mingins taomtnsa...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 5:58 PM Kristy- I had to laugh when you described the ages of senior citizens. I am going to be 60 in May and feel better and have more energy than I did at 20. I have Fibromyalgia, and am in constant severe pain, but with diet and lifestyle, I have more energy than most. Many years ago I did alot of chakra work and color meditation which helped me greatly with this. Anyway, that being said, as a lively senior citizen who is in pain, and is an avid meditator I can tell you what has worked for me. I myself am an RN and know the importance of ergonomics. I have an office chair, the vinyl kind that rolls, that happens to have a straight back and leaves my feet flat on the floor. This illness has severely affected my muscles, and I need the support to keep me upright, otherwise I go into muscle spasms. I am every bit as straight as when I sit on the floor, and die in pain. Hope this helps. PS- don't tell these people they are senior citizens, they may want to stay deluded like me! Deborah taomtnsa...@yahoo.com From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 3:41:21 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) Hi Mel, *chuckles* Thanks for your frank appraisal on this. You bring up many good points. thanks for mentioning the stool.. I hadn't thought about that. With the group, I will be working with, that won't work for all of them, but its is a real possibility for some. For those who can, it offers the bonus of working with their balance. Do we know for sure that Buddha didn't sit on a stump under the bodhi tree? *s* Having had my share of injuries, including a broken ankle along with several surgical complications, I have often used a chair over the years, though I always used a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do not, I can see that it may not be necessary for proper zazen, which is good because I don't have enough for all of people in my class. The class is for seniors, and will include zazen, mindfulness and breathwork, as part of a pain management program. Though it is my hope they find it relevant to their own inner awareness. I--too, have encountered people in my sanghi's over the years who tend to think their pretzel posture somehow elevated their status above the rest of us. As you say well, it isn't about looking like buddha, but being the buddha we are, ourselves. For myself, I'm finding that I am having random moments of that now, but not as much as before. I have my own frustration s and personal problems, and have been pretty cynical in recent months. But like all things-- this, too , will pass. Thanks again, Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au wrote: From: Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au Subject: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) To: zen forum Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 12:17 AM Hi Kristy and all I personally don't know how the traditional full or half lotus, or Burmese positions, help in getting back to the original I, or Big Mind. If I had been born, raised, and educated from within a devout Buddhist family, I'm sure I would have been introduced into the full lotus position from since a very young age. However, I discovered Zen in my 20s 20-25 years ago. At best, I can do the Burmese position, but with my arthritis and lack of flexibility, I often use a chairin fact a plastic stool I bought for AUS$10. It works just fine I often end up working much harder(read...right effort) in keeping my posture straight when I sit on the above
Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah
Hi Dana, As for me.. of course. Please do share any of my comments, but allow Deborah to comment as well. If you'd like, I'll be happy to fwd the course written materials and my notes. Obviously, no audios can be public. One class is in March in San Diego, affiliated with UCSD , and the other in Santa Barbara (UCSB) in late April. These classes are free of charge, and focus on the relationship between pain management and mindfulness / meditation / breathwork. Some yoga stretches are included--as tolerated. Further comment to Deborah tomorrow. Be well.. Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Dana S. Leslie dslesl...@cox.net wrote: From: Dana S. Leslie dslesl...@cox.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 10:38 PM Deborah, Kristy, I have a friend with severe FM, who is also currently working with mindfulness-inspired therapy modalities in her counseling practice. May I forward this exchange to her? Thank you. Dana - Original Message - From: Deborah Mingins taomtnsa...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah Thanks for your enthusiasm. The medication that's the new miracle for Fibromyalgia is a controlled substance and can become addicting. Not an option for me. The pain has actually helped me in my meditation for focus, in sitting, and walking, and what I call in my own language living meditation. I take my consciousness of the moment and my breath, and go out into life with it. I try to sustain this. My ability to think has sped up, which I'm sure others have found, and I know what someone is going to say after 2 or 3 words. I have to sit on my hands to let them go thru their process of finishing their sentence. My ability to focus is unbelievable, and that's thanks to pain. So sometimes bad things are really gifts in disguise. The pain I experience used to take my focus off of everything because it was so bad. Now I experience it, am one with it, and at some level am able to be mindful and detach from it. It sounds like it's a duality but it isn't. They are two sides to the one. Am always available by email or cell -just email me privately. Best of luck! Deborah taomtnsa...@yahoo.com From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 9:17:58 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah Hi Deborah, Thank you for this! Please know that I do not refer to these terrific people as senior citizens! I love older people, and have since childhood, with my gammy as the best role model a child could have. in fact, that was my first career choice--exercise gerontology. I did not mean to be politically incorrect here, nor to stereotype. To the contrary! I used the word seniors as a short-hand reference, but actually-- 55-75 is middle aged these days. I haven't looked at the demographics recently, but at one time, 85+ was the fastest growing age sector. I also agree that taking care of yourself, staying active, and having a meditation, prayer or other contemplative practice keeps us young. In this case, they are all in some form of out-patient therapy, so this is just an adjunct. It sounds like you are doing great, and finally they have a name and a diagnosis for your situation. Question-- didn't they approve a medication not too long ago for Fibromyalia? Any thoughts on that? Would love you to come here to teach this class!! Be well.. Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Deborah Mingins taomtnsa...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Deborah Mingins taomtnsa...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 5:58 PM Kristy- I had to laugh when you described the ages of senior citizens. I am going to be 60 in May and feel better and have more energy than I did at 20. I have Fibromyalgia, and am in constant severe pain, but with diet and lifestyle, I have more energy than most. Many years ago I did alot of chakra work and color meditation which helped me greatly with this. Anyway, that being said, as a lively senior citizen who is in pain, and is an avid meditator I can tell you what has worked for me. I myself am an RN and know the importance of ergonomics. I have an office chair, the vinyl kind that rolls, that happens to have a straight back and leaves my feet flat on the floor. This illness has severely affected my muscles, and I need the support to keep me upright, otherwise I go into muscle spasms. I am every bit as straight as when I sit on the floor, and die in pain. Hope this helps. PS- don't tell these people they are senior citizens, they may want to stay deluded like me! Deborah taomtnsa...@yahoo.com From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 3:41:21 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging
Re: [Zen] Re: Zen and the art of happiness
Dana, First, I want to thank you for your prior post about what to do when a standard sitting practice feels stale. Very helpful~ I normally would not comment on this one, as I don't have an opinion either way, but your emotional vestment in this does interest me. In my training, I've learned that when we react very stronly to something, we are confronting an issue that can teach us even more about ourself. I call it the shadow-self. So while I don't want to provoke angst, I'm wondering what IS so disgusted and irritating for you about this. Is it wrong-- and so why? Why would it matter if it was valid-- or just valid to others? There is an old saying-- The liklihood something is right increases in direct proportion with the intensity someone is trying to prove it wrong. Please shine the mirror on it, if you will;) Kristy --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Dana S. Leslie dslesl...@cox.net wrote: From: Dana S. Leslie dslesl...@cox.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zen and the art of happiness To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 7:32 AM PLEASE! Don't get me started on Zukav, Capra, or any of that ilk. They seem to think that, if they can show that physics and Zen, Daoism, or whatever, yield the same worldview/analogous worldviews, they've 'proven' something profound about the nature of reality. The worst sort of quasi-mystical reductionism / scientific realism! And, I think, those particular -isms, along with ANY other ontological theories, are SO FAR from a satisfactory philosophical theory of EITHER the empirical sciences OR of Zen, Daoism, whatever, that . . . I can't express my disgust! But, there, you see, you got me arguing 'isms, drawing distinctions, etc. DON'T DO THAT! shouts my internal Zen master, smacking me with her Keisaku. grin Dana - Original Message - From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:24 AM Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and the art of happiness Brett, I haven't read Zen and the Art of Happiness. I have read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It's one of my all time favorites. I have also read The Dancing Wu-Li Masters by Gary Zukov. It's about Buddhism and quantum physics. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, artist brettalancorbin@... wrote: I was wondering if anyone out there have read the book Zen and the art of happiness by Chris Prentiss, and wondered what people on this group think of what he is saying about quantum physics. Brett. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links __ NOD32 5855 (20110208) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen
Bill, Anthony, I wondered if you, or others here, can recommend equipment or furniture (chairs /benches and such), that has worked well for people who can no longer, (or never have) been able to use a safu in a traditional sitting posture. For those with less flexability, or have arthritis, back /joint pain, and the rest. I am wondering if using a safu on the chair is necessary to achieve the proper zazen state, and how it affects the duration of time and frequency of the sitting practice. I suppose I'm asking about the quality of the zazen experience for them There has always so much insistence on posture. Any thoughts? Thanks, Kristy
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen
Thanks Brett and Anthony. Question? Are you placing a safu on the chair when you sit? Has it changed how long you can sit without cramping? Thanks again. :) Kristy --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 3:53 PM Hi Kristy, I use a chair to do my meditation, the chair I use enables me to sit with my back striaght, feet flat on the ground, with my neck striaght, with my head level. I have done both sitting and in my chair, I have found that either way is good, but I guess it depends on the person. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 12:45 PM Bill, Anthony, I wondered if you, or others here, can recommend equipment or furniture (chairs /benches and such), that has worked well for people who can no longer, (or never have) been able to use a safu in a traditional sitting posture. For those with less flexability, or have arthritis, back /joint pain, and the rest. I am wondering if using a safu on the chair is necessary to achieve the proper zazen state, and how it affects the duration of time and frequency of the sitting practice. I suppose I'm asking about the quality of the zazen experience for them There has always so much insistence on posture. Any thoughts? Thanks, Kristy
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen
Thanks Brett. :) Very helpful! I will be facilitating a group of seniors (55-79), and you make a great point. Part of the discomfort or cramping can be tension, and its part of the sitting practice to recognize it, sit with it as it dissolves. Your comments really help ~ k --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 4:20 PM Kristy, I do not use a safu in my chair, my chair is one of those chairs that is very comfortable. I have had times where I have had certain parts of my body start to cramp, and I would adjust a bit and that would make it better, but for me alot of my cramping was due to tension in my body, I have found by cultivating calmness and peace that my body naturally relaxes and I do not seem to have cramping as much. I think for me the most important thing is to find what position makes you the most comfortable, and then go with that. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 3:09 PM Thanks Brett and Anthony. Question? Are you placing a safu on the chair when you sit? Has it changed how long you can sit without cramping? Thanks again. :) Kristy --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 3:53 PM Hi Kristy, I use a chair to do my meditation, the chair I use enables me to sit with my back striaght, feet flat on the ground, with my neck striaght, with my head level. I have done both sitting and in my chair, I have found that either way is good, but I guess it depends on the person. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 12:45 PM Bill, Anthony, I wondered if you, or others here, can recommend equipment or furniture (chairs /benches and such), that has worked well for people who can no longer, (or never have) been able to use a safu in a traditional sitting posture. For those with less flexability, or have arthritis, back /joint pain, and the rest. I am wondering if using a safu on the chair is necessary to achieve the proper zazen state, and how it affects the duration of time and frequency of the sitting practice. I suppose I'm asking about the quality of the zazen experience for them There has always so much insistence on posture. Any thoughts? Thanks, Kristy It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen
Anthony, You explain perfectly! ~k --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 5:39 PM Kristy, I think safu or not is unimportant. What counts is the seat of your chair. If it is too low, a cushion is good. If too high, you should put something under your feet. They should 'touch down' comfortabley. Never hanging in the air. I don't know how to explain, but that should be the way.\ Anthony --- On Wed, 9/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 9 February, 2011, 7:09 AM Thanks Brett and Anthony. Question? Are you placing a safu on the chair when you sit? Has it changed how long you can sit without cramping? Thanks again. :) Kristy --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 3:53 PM Hi Kristy, I use a chair to do my meditation, the chair I use enables me to sit with my back striaght, feet flat on the ground, with my neck striaght, with my head level. I have done both sitting and in my chair, I have found that either way is good, but I guess it depends on the person. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 12:45 PM Bill, Anthony, I wondered if you, or others here, can recommend equipment or furniture (chairs /benches and such), that has worked well for people who can no longer, (or never have) been able to use a safu in a traditional sitting posture. For those with less flexability, or have arthritis, back /joint pain, and the rest. I am wondering if using a safu on the chair is necessary to achieve the proper zazen state, and how it affects the duration of time and frequency of the sitting practice. I suppose I'm asking about the quality of the zazen experience for them There has always so much insistence on posture. Any thoughts? Thanks, Kristy
Re: [Zen] Re: Spock?
Thanks Bill, for your insightful comments. One of the many things I've always admired and respected about you is your ability to address others where they are. You are able to communicate from a similar perspective, yet remain authentic with your views. Whether zen practice or life experience, it is one of your gifts. Your words were very instructive to me. As to Dallas, my 4yo sports-nut nephew agrees! He was talking non-stop on the phone to me with similar sentiments. Apparently, Dallas is on the D list, even though the cheerleaders maintain a D-cup reputaion. Here's a commercial about Tibet that sparked some controversy. My opiniion? Its the usual crass American opportunism;)~~ k Did Groupon's Tibet Ad Go Too Far? In its controversial Super Bowl ad, did Groupon exploit tragedy in Tibet to promote its own business? Judge for Yourself --- On Sun, 2/6/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Spock? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 6:02 PM Kristy, Thanks for your post. I've embedded some short replies below: --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: Hi Bill,  I've read your posts for some time, and I think I understand  this, to a degree. But I sense that the zen you practice is more than just a sitting practice of zazen. You often discuss and share your understanding of the sutras and other buddhist ideas-- like the eight-fold path. While I don't think you encourage ethical mis-conduct, I don't think ethical standards are your focus either, but I may  be mis-reading this about you. But I sense that you actually are ethical indeed, and wonder if discounting that here is really a ploy to engage conversation. [Bill!] I think the only difference between us is I don't consider my actions or responses as 'ethical' or 'unethical'. I just act and move on. I also don't judge other people's actions as 'ethical' or 'unethical'. I just respond the them. You do discuss buddha nature, however as a result of just this, or as a by-product, perhaps. So, I guess I'm thinking that it is your years of training and experience that has  brought you to the point wherein you discount much of the trappings that often co-exist with zen practices, or should i say Zen practices. For me Just THIS! is Buddha Nature. And yes this my whole life has brought me to this point and that certainly includes formal Zen instruction. I won't ask how I can get to Just this, but I'd like to learn more about how you got there, and maybe a couple things you do each day, other than zazen, that lets you know that you are maintaining your just this mind in everyday situations. (Maybe the tea spill on the PC experience, for example). [Bill!] Although you didn't ask, one way to 'get to' Just THIS! is zazen. There are many others, in fact I beleive any path if followed with complete dedication will 'get to' (I'd say 'reveal' since it was always there) Just THIS!. I'm not able to maintain Just THIS! is all my everyday situations. To expand Just THIS! from zazen to all of my daily life is my practice. I see you as very non-judgemental, and whether that is a result of your practice, or as Indiana Jones would say-- its not the years, honey--its the mileage. [Bill!] Well said. I don't know the answer to your question, but I have a hunch it is both - or that both are the really just the same thing. But when you and others talk about duality and illusory ideas-- I tend to shrug, because to discuss it here, involves reading posts, assessing the meaning within, and deciding whether to respond or not. You still go to a store to buy goods , so comparing one brand to another is still there. You likely experience happiness and frustration. You still have to pee or take Flomax. Have mind-blowing sex.. good sex.. or no sex. [Bill!] I try to respond to people from the same perspective they approach me. If they are logical I try to use logic. If they are mystical I try to use mysticism. If they are dreamers I spin them a tale. Zen Buddhism calls this 'skillful means'. I am very logically-oreinted myself and have made my living from that all my adult life, so logically-based topics are especially intereting to me. It's also my weakness. When I am excercising logic I have to remain attentive so as to not get lost and sucked-in, and always remember logic is illusory - and very seductive for me. I'm still learning, so your thoughts are appreciated. [Bill!] I am still learning too, and also appreciate your posts. May the Force be with You-- and the Steelers!!~~ k [Bill!] I have no favorties in this Super Bowl. Both are very good teams. I'm just glad the Cowboys have to watch from the sidelines. ...Bill! --- On Sun, 2/6/11, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote
Re: [Zen] Re: Spock?
Hi Ed, I initially read this in the context of spiritual awareness. But perhaps that isn't your question. Personal development / self-inquiry / spiritual growth is the new-age self-help. I have found zen-inspired centers in many other areans. Often, they include some zen philosophy and psychology with practices like zazen. Some yoga studios and classes combine zen and yoga models, but do not necessarily include buddhism. Zen or zen sells. So it is incorporated in feng shui and Japanese design centers. Zen gardens are popular, so there are now zen horticulturists. Several spas and wellness centers include zen practices when teaching classes on stress and personal growth. The way of Tea shops have including zen with the tea ceremony. Medical centers can have zen-influenced clinics for patients with conditions that range widely, from sleep disorders, to psoriasis, to cardiac conditions, to allergies, and many more. Many of the above discuss zen practices as a lifestyle, but without a defined spiritual dimension. So its kind-of in the context you are asking. Kristy Yes, and I was interested in knowing if there is any zen center that advocates 'zen' without any mention Buddha's teachings. --ED
Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist Personality Types
Gentlemen, People are not so uni-dimensional, or easily classified. I think this is a fine game-- like Clue. But trying to sort this way obscures clarity. Why bother discussing illusion and duality, and then assert these ideas and definitions, unless indeed it is a means to better understand self, others and the world around you. Which makes sense, but still dualistic, imo. I can assure you that analytical people can also be keenly intuitive, as an example. So the question is, can one actually exist in non-duality with no illusions? Meanwhile, I'm making the nacho dip, and pulled pork sandwiches. Be well.. ~ k --- On Sun, 2/6/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist Personality Types To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 10:27 AM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Steve, Replace 'Hate type' with 'solid type' 'Greed type' with 'peculiar type', then, does the following make sense to you? --ED Hi ED. Yes, there do seem to be parallels. Solids also seem to share characteristics of what Buddhists call Discursive-Types. The important thing, imo, is to keep in mind that all such systems of classification are only provisionally useful as upaya, and should not be reified into self-contained boxes, should not be reified into a self. The advantage of the Buddhist schemata is that it just focuses on Aversion, Attraction, Confusion, Intellectual Analysis, Clear Seeing and Trust. These are the basic ways in which the mind react to phenomena. All of the other traits that can be associated with these are secondary, imo. Intellectual Analysis is associated with the Discursive-Type. The Discursive-Type is obsessed with logical analysis and conceptual classifications. But, as Plotinus noted, brilliant intellectual anaysis can never apprehend the uncompounded. Logical anaysis creates conceptual boxes and dividing-lines where none actually exist. They are very useful from the relative point of view, but they are ultimately misleading, imo. It all comes back to The 3 Signs of Being: All phenomena are fluid, not static. Nothing has separate, independant, contained, inherent self- existence. If we do not realize the first two, we suffer. If we do realize the first two, then we can rest in the Unborn. All upaya are provisional rafts for crossing the stream. Even the preceding sentence is just upaya. Who wants to cross the stream? Steve
Re: [Zen] Inside and outside.
I love poetry. Thanks, Chris. ~ k --- On Sat, 2/5/11, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: [Zen] Inside and outside. To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 5, 2011, 10:02 AM I went biking up a local mountain a few times the last month which has a great route, twenty miles up hill, get out and snap a few pics, then turn around and roll back down hill for twenty miles. For me, biking has been a sort of kinhin 2.0, where the perspective I have on the zafu can be tried out in motion. The main differences between sitting on a zafu and on a bike are: some fears on the bike are not imaginary, and biking is inherently relaxing in a way zazen is not. However, the paired experiences of biking uphill and then down hill was interesting. Zazen is not about a focused awareness, but an open awareness on what is salient. On the trip up, which is very slow and safe and physically demanding, the salient awareness are mostly 'interior.' leg is shaking, eat a banana. Super hot in my face, slow down. I could just turn around now and start downhill and skip the rest, keep peddling. Thirsty, get a drink. Gotta pee, go pee. Etc. Miss these and you may faint from hunger, get really thirsty, not make it to the top, etc. On the trip up, which is very fast and dangerous and not at all a matter of exertion, the salient facts are mostly 'exterior.' Pothole in the center. Car two curves away in my lane. Car two curves away in my lane. Front brakes not working. Flat rear tire from over use of back tire. Gravel in road. With no real difference in seeing this moment the shift in conditions from uphill to downhill shifts the stream of which I am aware. Live long and prosper, --Chris
Re: [Zen] Buddhist Personality Types
Hi Steve, Sorry for my delayed reply.. life stuff. Perhaps thats an indicator of my type? As a health behavioral scientist, I want to thank you for these postings. Sure beats the DSM. Its so interesting how traditions, beliefs, science and the rest evolve over time. My perspective is that all of these are attempts to understand the world around us, and each other. Security often thrives on predictable explanations. If we can understand our world and each other, our fear can dissolve. Thus, our cortisol fight or flight instincts can dis-engage, and we can use time in productive tasks, rathen defensive postures. While I can completely accept your explanation here, I can also explain these traits based in biology and physiology. Or in neuro-anatomy or western psychology. Or in ayurveda doshas. In yogic sutras. In tantric sexuality. Maybe I'll settle for (e) --all of the above. I did smile about the opposites--attract relationship you have with your partner. While this seems common, it is the shared values both have that makes the relationship functional. I am the least-tech-savvy person on the planet. Its embarrassing. My husband is the best I've ever witnessed. Thanks again.. ~ k --- On Fri, 2/4/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Buddhist Personality Types To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 10:12 AM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@... wrote: *bows*  I can't offer anything useful. But beware behavioral scientists. They skew the results. Steve.. you are so wise in so many ways..  As you point out at times.. is it, - or not, illusory?   What others think isn't that important.   What you think--- is.. ~ k  p.s.  Bill may feel differently.  Hi Kristy. Oh, this has nothing to do with modern psychology. This goes back to early Buddhism. It is based on the idea that people have karmic dispositions toward certain reactive mental states. This can be verified by simply watching how one reacts to people, places and things. The ancient literature went so far as to describe these predispositions in terms of how a person dressed, worked, ate their food, slept, and walked. For example, I have noticed that I am what is called a hate type. It would be more accurate to say aversion type in English, as it is characterized by a karmic tendancy for a knee-jerk reaction of aversion to phenomena. I perfectly fit the ancient description: I walk quickly, with my feet seeming to tear-up the ground. I tend to stuff food into my mouth without savoring it. I work quickly, but roughly. I wear my clothes a little too tight. I throw myself onto the bed at night to sleep, and if awakened, feel annoyed. I jump right up in the morning. I do not ever look for long at anything, and have the subtle feeling that I want to look away. I have a subtle reaction of weariness to phenomena. I tend to have a negative assesment of phenomena as a first reaction. Of course, we are not static entities. This refers to a process of evolution. I am slowly evolving into what is called a wisdom type. According to the old suttas, hate types evolve into wisdom types. Hate is like wisdom in that neither clings to phenomena. Greed types are almost the exact opposite, but this isn't really a good thing. Whereas hate types are characterized by a subtle feeling of pushing-away phenomena, greed types are characterized by a subtle feeling of pulling-in phenomena and trying to cling to them. My girlfriend is a classic greed-type: She walks gracefully and carefully. She carefully eats her food, savoring each small bite. She works carefully, attending to details. She wears her clothes with an eye to careful fashion. She snuggles into her covers at night and is slow to awaken, preferring to stay in the comfort of the bed. She looks at things she regards as pretty for a long time, and seems to be reluctant to look away. She seems to have a desire for phenomena, and seems to want to pull everything in. She is always very taken with The Next New Thing. Whereas I tend to be unreasonably negative, she tends to be unreasonably positive. According to the old suttas, greed types evolve into Faith Types who have a serene trust in life. Greed is like Faith in that both look for the positive in phenomena. But Faith, unlike Greed, is not under any illusions about the supposed permanence of things. In the old literature, hate types are advised to meditate on compassion. Greed types are advised to meditate on death and impermanence. If hate types do not learn compassion, it is said that they go to the Hell of Fighting Devils. If greed types do not learn that everything comes and goes on the phenomenal plane, then they become Hungry Ghosts. This, of course, is just metaphor. Everyone, of course, must learn the 3 Signs of Being: Everything comes
Re: [Zen] Re: Spock?
Hi Bill, You often refer to the zen you practice, as in the following: To answer your question, anything that involves observing does not sound like zen to me. In the zen I practice there are no dualities such as observer/observed (subject/object)...Bill! Would you be willing to share how you do this, or give an example? Thanks.. ~K
Re: [Zen] Buddhist Personality Types
Steve, This brings smiles to my heart. It sounds like even more than a soulmate , or one's split-apart:;) I am very happy for you, and may all karmic blessings follow you both...k Hi Kristy. My relationship with Girlfriend is not something that just happened. Its karmic. As an attraction-type evolving into a faith-type, she is very optimistic and compassionate-just what I need! I tell her that she is an avatar of Kwan Yin for me. About 10 years now. Steve
Re: [Zen] Buddhist Personality Types
*bows* I can't offer anything useful. But beware behavioral scientists. They skew the results. Steve.. you are so wise in so many ways.. As you point out at times.. is it, - or not, illusory? What others think isn't that important. What you think--- is.. ~ k p.s. Bill may feel differently. --- On Thu, 2/3/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Buddhist Personality Types To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 11:24 PM Hello. I have personally found the theory of Buddhist Personality Types to be very useful in my practice. The Types are: Hate Type, Greed Type, Confusion Type, Discursive Type, Faith Type and Wisdom Type. This goes back to the Pali Canon and really isn't a Zen thing, but I was wondering if anyone else here was interested in this. Steve
Re: [Zen] Re: Spock?
*s* Gotta luv them scientisys..k --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Dave P wookielife...@yahoo.ca wrote: From: Dave P wookielife...@yahoo.ca Subject: [Zen] Re: Spock? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 10:07 PM Well, we are talking fiction, of course :) From what I understand, however, there is a choice on the part of Vulcans. Here's the relevant quote, from of all things the animated series. Vulcans do not lack emotion. This is an all too common misconception. It is merely that our emotions are controlled, kept in check. This adherence to principles of logic offers a serenity that humans rarely experience in full. We have emotions. But we deal firmly with them and do not let them control us. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: As I understand it, 'feelings' are inner sensations, 'emotions' are an outer expression of these feelings. I think that most Buddhist Mahayana and Hinayana texts recommend being continuously aware at all times of one's (inner) feelings, and then to make the (right) effort not to emote (display one's emotions) willy-nilly, which could trigger off unwholesome activity all round. Zen, I think, recommends likewise. Vulcans *appear* to be very Buddhist-like in this regard. However, it may require *no* effort on their part due to a differently-structural neural system. If they do have choice, the motivation underlying their choice would need to be scrutinized. Vajrayana (Tantrayana) may have recommendations different from those in the Mahayana/Hinayana texts. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Dave P wookielifeday@ wrote: I've never understood the difference. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Do you draw a distinction between 'feelings' and 'emotions' or not? Thanks, ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Dave P wookielifeday@ wrote: This is another strange question, but I've been watching a lot of Star Trek, and there's frequent mentioning of how the Vulcans are not actually unemotional, but simply observe their emotions and not let them control their actions. Does this sound Zen to anyone here, or am I way off?
Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
Hi Anthony, I've heard about this... I've also heard that if everyone in the world sat in a circle, and placed their problems in the center-- most would take their own problems back. Hope all is well with you. ~ k --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:11 PM Steve, Thank you for releasing me from a constant fear of being attacked by enlightened beings. As regards 'tonglen', it is supposed to give away one's good luck, in exchange for taking others' bad luck. This is a great bodhisatva's practice. However, the Buddhist principle is that you can only work on your own karma by yourself, and it is impossible to have others influence your karma. Of course, they can guide you toward creating good karma. Is tonglen in conformity with Buddhism? Anthony --- On Wed, 2/2/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 2 February, 2011, 6:02 AM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Thank you, Steve. This is also my observation. The word practice, is translated from two Chinese words and they are trim/cultivate and execute/apply combined. Chan needs to be walked on both legs, because they interact with each other. In Buddhist sutra, the word action is often associated with Bodhisattva, so to mean Actions of Bodhisattva or in Chinese 『菩薩 行』. Seldom the word, cultivate is associated with Bodhisattva to be 『菩薩修』。 In other words, to comprehend, to be awaken is still in the domain of consciousness, or Human Realm of the Ten Buddhist Realms. To act on, so to refine our awakening continuously is the only way to reach the Bodhisattva Realm. In our school, it further recommends us to undertake the karma of others. Not as a concept, but in forms of both wisdom and life's energy. This is not a concept. It is a real practice. Similar to merit, it is not a concept, or a way of teaching. It can be experienced. Everything written in the sutra can be experienced, once we get to that level. It is quite fascinating. :-) JM Thank you, JM. Yes, I agree. A friend of mine who practices Tibetan Vajrayana taught me the method of Tonglen, or Exchanging Self For Other. It is quite challenging to my delusiory ego! Steve
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Hi Bill, I agree. Lets get drunk and party. ~ k --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:05 PM ED, I disagree - not becuase I want to discourage 'wholesome' behaviour, but because I don't want anyone to beleive that acting in any certain way (even in what the person believes is a 'wholesome' way) will contribute to the realization of Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Bill, Whether the number of steps in the Eightfold noble path is 8 or 800 is not relevant. Whether Zen is a subset of Buddhism or not is a non-issue. And, you may use the qualifier 'right' or 'wholesome' or something else. The point is that in addition to concentration meditation and shikantaza, wholesome motivation, and wholesome thought, speech and conduct are either necessary for or will greatly facilitate the realization of Buddha Nature. How wholesome motivation and wholesome behavior are cultivated in a zenist is the zenist's choice. Buddhism offers a variety of practices to achieve these two ends. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: ED, The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't consider Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them with a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that characterizes most religions. Bill
Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path
Anthony, Yes, I understood that. I was just pointing to the idea that if we could do an exchange, most would not do so. Its more on the lines of bittersweet humor. As your post was to Steve, i didn't mean to interrupt. But if you asked my view, I don't think you can. This may be the one area of karma I accept. Trying to fix another's problem is enabling them. But there is a fine line distinction, I think. I can help a cardiac patient learn new behaviors to modify his/ her life, so that he can help him /herself. I can counsel an addict parent, and place the child out of harm's way. But I cannot do the work for either. So, I do believe in helping others solve problems for individual and collective good-- but I do not think its possible or wise to try to solve their problems for them. Kristy --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 6:25 PM Kristy, You say, ...most would take their own problems back. My question is whether it is possible to take 'others' problem. Anthony --- On Thu, 3/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 3 February, 2011, 9:16 AM Hi Anthony, I've heard about this... I've also heard that if everyone in the world sat in a circle, and placed their problems in the center-- most would take their own problems back. Hope all is well with you. ~ k --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:11 PM Steve, Thank you for releasing me from a constant fear of being attacked by enlightened beings. As regards 'tonglen', it is supposed to give away one's good luck, in exchange for taking others' bad luck. This is a great bodhisatva's practice. However, the Buddhist principle is that you can only work on your own karma by yourself, and it is impossible to have others influence your karma. Of course, they can guide you toward creating good karma. Is tonglen in conformity with Buddhism? Anthony --- On Wed, 2/2/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Eightfold Path To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 2 February, 2011, 6:02 AM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.jmjm@... wrote: Thank you, Steve. This is also my observation. The word practice, is translated from two Chinese words and they are trim/cultivate and execute/apply combined. Chan needs to be walked on both legs, because they interact with each other. In Buddhist sutra, the word action is often associated with Bodhisattva, so to mean Actions of Bodhisattva or in Chinese 『菩薩 行』. Seldom the word, cultivate is associated with Bodhisattva to be 『菩薩修』。 In other words, to comprehend, to be awaken is still in the domain of consciousness, or Human Realm of the Ten Buddhist Realms. To act on, so to refine our awakening continuously is the only way to reach the Bodhisattva Realm. In our school, it further recommends us to undertake the karma of others. Not as a concept, but in forms of both wisdom and life's energy. This is not a concept. It is a real practice. Similar to merit, it is not a concept, or a way of teaching. It can be experienced. Everything written in the sutra can be experienced, once we get to that level. It is quite fascinating. :-) JM Thank you, JM. Yes, I agree. A friend of mine who practices Tibetan Vajrayana taught me the method of Tonglen, or Exchanging Self For Other. It is quite challenging to my delusiory ego! Steve
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
This sounds right to me. Now I really need a drink. ~ k --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 6:53 PM Seems to me that the problem isn't acting in a wholesome fashion, but the trying to be wholesome. You are already wholesome, you don't need to try or strive or purify or whatever to be wholesome. As far as actions, the key there is in the moment, how are you acting. Far from being a help, trying to be wholesome is more likely to make you miss seeing the unwholesome parts of your own reality and thereby become more likely to be blind to the harm you are causing. --Chris On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Bill, I agree. Lets get drunk and party. ~ k --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:05 PM ED, I disagree - not becuase I want to discourage 'wholesome' behaviour, but because I don't want anyone to beleive that acting in any certain way (even in what the person believes is a 'wholesome' way) will contribute to the realization of Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Bill, Whether the number of steps in the Eightfold noble path is 8 or 800 is not relevant. Whether Zen is a subset of Buddhism or not is a non-issue. And, you may use the qualifier 'right' or 'wholesome' or something else. The point is that in addition to concentration meditation and shikantaza, wholesome motivation, and wholesome thought, speech and conduct are either necessary for or will greatly facilitate the realization of Buddha Nature. How wholesome motivation and wholesome behavior are cultivated in a zenist is the zenist's choice. Buddhism offers a variety of practices to achieve these two ends. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: ED, The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't consider Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them with a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that characterizes most religions. Bill
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Anthony, My favorite-- its a date. k --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: From: Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 7:58 PM Kristy, I would like to share your drink. How about Mao Tai (60%), instead of the boring Jack Daniel. Anthony --- On Thu, 3/2/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 3 February, 2011, 10:35 AM This sounds right to me. Now I really need a drink. ~ k --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 6:53 PM Seems to me that the problem isn't acting in a wholesome fashion, but the trying to be wholesome. You are already wholesome, you don't need to try or strive or purify or whatever to be wholesome. As far as actions, the key there is in the moment, how are you acting. Far from being a help, trying to be wholesome is more likely to make you miss seeing the unwholesome parts of your own reality and thereby become more likely to be blind to the harm you are causing. --Chris On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Bill, I agree. Lets get drunk and party. ~ k --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 5:05 PM ED, I disagree - not becuase I want to discourage 'wholesome' behaviour, but because I don't want anyone to beleive that acting in any certain way (even in what the person believes is a 'wholesome' way) will contribute to the realization of Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Bill, Whether the number of steps in the Eightfold noble path is 8 or 800 is not relevant. Whether Zen is a subset of Buddhism or not is a non-issue. And, you may use the qualifier 'right' or 'wholesome' or something else. The point is that in addition to concentration meditation and shikantaza, wholesome motivation, and wholesome thought, speech and conduct are either necessary for or will greatly facilitate the realization of Buddha Nature. How wholesome motivation and wholesome behavior are cultivated in a zenist is the zenist's choice. Buddhism offers a variety of practices to achieve these two ends. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: ED, The Noble Eightfold Path is a very good example of why I don't consider Zen a subset of Buddhism. First of all to assert there are 8 items of conduct such as this borders on hubris. Also to proceed all of them with a qualifier 'Right' is also an example of the impertinence that characterizes most religions. Bill
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Brett, I completely agree. Something did occur to me as I read your post. I think its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their journey by doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group. Exploring within as they are guided. Supposedly then, one has gained enough inner clarity so those other things are unnecessary. For myself, I began a zen learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing more clearly as time passes, that this is no longer a spiritual path for me. I embrace zazen, much of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the ethical conduct teachings. But even there, I am far more guided by the yoga limbs , than by many of the theological teachings of buddhism. I feel that there can be great value in a spiritual path, or even quest. But, I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An interchange between Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for a long time. Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their butts, and practice what they preach? Is there not a certain self-righteousness in believing that the chants of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of self-focus? While serenely watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive care whose father beat him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury. While someone is cooking their organic tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent put her feet in boiling water because the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show you the newspaper paragraph detailing how a baby died after being placed in a microwave. I have to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a foundation. But, my library of books and teacher- interviews and the rest is over. Its about plugging in--for me. As you said, its finding one's own truth. Be well. Kristy --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 9:41 PM I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them selves. I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that. I believe that is why there is so much division in religions and belief systems. I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more unity in this world. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Makya, It is precisely my direct experience that brings me to this. I studied from very insightful and wise teachers. But there's an old saying.. Those who can--do. Those who can't--teach. Yes-- there is a lot of self-righteousness in zen and other communities. There is some here. Looking in the mirror can guide us all. My direct experience tells me that it has very little to do with pointing to the moon, and solving riddles. Its about getting one's hands dirty in the earth. When it comes to no-self, I can assure you that someone's self beat and hurt those children. It happens every single day. If you'd like to help, I can refer to a place who desperately needs some. Take care.. k --- On Mon, 1/24/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 7:00 AM K Wrote: Should zennists, (or any spiritual practitioner), get off their butts, and practise what they preach? Is there not a certain self-righteousness in believing that the chants of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of self-focus?. I haven't seen many real zennist practitioners preaching so far. Though they may be sharing the fruits of their own practise or direct experience with it. There is no preaching in zen as far as I know. Perhaps you were not lucky enough to find the real practitioners. Or perhaps you rely a bit too much in Internet resources and postings from which you get this incorrect ideas about zen practitioners. The same word practitioner means that that person doesn't follows preachings but that person is putting into real direct experience whatever is talking about. However, I would agree with you that often in Internet there is more a lot of more talking zen that actually the experience of the practise talking through that talk. A tutti frutti for all tastes and from which there is also a sort of learning behind. Nothing is completely black and nothing is completely white. Mayka --- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 8:28 Brett, I completely agree. Something did occur to me as I read your post. I think its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their journey by doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group. Exploring within as they are guided. Supposedly then, one has gained enough inner clarity so those other things are unnecessary. For myself, I began a zen learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing more clearly as time passes, that this is no longer a spiritual path for me. I embrace zazen, much of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the ethical conduct teachings. But even there, I am far more guided by the yoga limbs , than by many of the theological teachings of buddhism. I feel that there can be great value in a spiritual path, or even quest. But, I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An interchange between Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for a long time. Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their butts, and practice what they preach? Is there not a certain self-righteousness in believing that the chants of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of self-focus? While serenely watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive care whose father beat him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury. While someone is cooking their organic tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent put her feet in boiling water because the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show you the newspaper paragraph detailing how a baby died after being placed in a microwave. I have to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a foundation. But, my library of books and teacher- interviews and the rest is over. Its about plugging in--for me. As you said, its finding one's own truth. Be well. Kristy --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 9:41 PM I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others
