Re: [ZION] Friendly Soft-spoken Neighborly, and Understanding (was Punch Their
I haven't yet figured out how to do this. Perhaps that is why the Lord hasn't called me to be a missionary even though I am a convert and feel I would be able to fellowship someone who was trying to convert from another church. Stacy. At 12:51 AM 11/03/2003 +, you wrote: President Hinckley addressed this issue fairly directly in his Sunday morning conference address: I believe and testify that it is the mission of this Church to stand as an ensign to the nations and a light to the world. We have had placed upon us a great, all-encompassing mandate from which we cannot shrink nor turn aside. We accept that mandate and are determined to fulfill it, and with the help of God we shall do it. There are forces all around us that would deter us from that effort. The world is constantly crowding in on us. From all sides we feel the pressure to soften our stance, to give in here a little and there a little. We must never lose sight of our objective. We must ever keep before us the goal which the Lord has set for us. To quote Paul: Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places (Ephesians 6:1012). We must stand firm. We must hold back the world. If we do so, the Almighty will be our strength and our protector, our guide and our revelator. We shall have the comfort of knowing that we are doing what He would have us do. Others may not agree with us, but I am confident that they will respect us. We will not be left alone. There are many not of our faith but who feel as we do. They will support us. They will sustain us in our efforts. We cannot be arrogant. We cannot be self-righteous. The very situation in which the Lord has placed us requires that we be humble as the beneficiaries of His direction. While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003 General Conference Address.) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Thrift!
I agree with Gramps. Get a rebuilt transmission installed, if you think that the rest of the car will last another 100,000. The oil use could be one of many things, some cheap, some not. You could be (among other things): - leaking oil around the valve cover - leaking oil around the valve guides - leaking oil around the oil pump - leaking oil around the oil pan - leaking oil from the head gasket, into the water system - leaking oil around the rings All of these are easy to check for. Whatever you do, if you decide to fix the transmission, DON'T have someone repair it. Get a fixed price rebuilt transmission with a good guarantee from a nationwide company. We have two good places here in Raleigh for engines and for transmissions, and I plan to make use of them when the time comes (but at only 175K miles, I have a long time yet! As they say, have faith, my son.) Jon - Original Message - From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Thrift! Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz wrote: I'm wondering if I've finally reached the point where I need to junk the car. == Grampa Bill comments: I'm reminded of the saying. If you're so smart, why ain't you rich? And I ain't rich! Nevertheless, siince you asked, I'm also reminded of something I once read about cars... Divide the car into three assemblies, the engine, the drive train, and the body. As long as two out of those three are good-to-go, then just fix up the other one. When it gets where two or all three are bad, dump it! Sounded like pretty good advice. Love y'all Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Israelites in Egypt
I would like to know more about this and to confirm exactly what the Hebrews had to do in their slavery and how they left by other sources. Stacy. At 06:43 PM 11/02/2003 -0500, you wrote: Gerald Smith wrote: There's an article in the Sep/Oct 2003 Biblical Archaeological Review (BAR) magazine from Manfred Bietak, a well-known Egyptologist, on finding evidence of the Israelites in Egypt... He dates the site to the time of Ramses IV, Ramses IV reigned from 1153-1147 BC, so it is possible that the Exodus, according to him didn't occur until 1150-1125 BC. I thought this interesting, and their evidence rather compelling for the dating and evidence of an Exodus in the timeframe cited. == Grampa Bill comments: Some people just can't let sleeping Pauls lie. :-) Seriously Paul, how does this fit with your chronology? Love y'all. Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics and Mormons unite
As I recall, there hasn't been any mandate as to what was to be said for early missionaries of the church and I find that interesting in and of itself. It seems to me that they are now supposed to be more guided by the Spirit in what they say and how they say it. That is a good thing. Stacy. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Thrift!
Steven, I remember running around in a jeep. Not mine, but it sure was fun to run across the desert out from El Paso. The Jeep I rode around in was a WWII Jeep manufactured by Ford, and had a small block Ford dropped into it. The problem was the driver, a friend of JWR me would twist off axels and I spent more than one night out in the desert fiddling with a broken Jeep. The Jeep went to summer camp where I was also a counselor. It was a camp to learn about handling horses and one of the horses died. The one ton pickup couldn't pull the dead horse out of the way on the trail, but that little Jeep winched it a little then was able to just take off with it. It had incredible power. Pax et Bonum, John A.E., n/OEF Life is a romantic business. It is painting a picture, not doing a sum -- but you have to make the romance, and it will come to the question how much fire you have in your belly. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 8:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Thrift! At 03:35 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote: Yes, yes, Till once had a bugeye Austin Healy Sprite*. Absolute fun to drive. The only drawbacks were the long gap between 2nd and 3rd gear, and the absence of side windows (had curtains) when it was cold. Sure miss that little blue Frog! I had a 1953 Healy 100. It was a sports car of sorts, but it had a 4 banger 2800 cc engine and transmission out of a tractor. You could climb up the side of a building in first gear, maxing out at 4 MPH. I bet it couldn't beat my 1953 Willey's Jeep 4 banger I used to own. Once in 4-Wheel Drive, I could idle my way up steep hillsides. That old Jeep was great fun. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Editor, The Constitutional Broadside Newsletter http://www.thecbn.net // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Sandy's Saturnalia question
The heating problem may also be the computer chip. I had to have mine replaced, and they say it is one of the more common problems with the older Saturns. As for the tranny, you'll have to decide whether it is worth it or not. With that many miles on it, I'd suggest just driving it until it no longer drives, and in the meantime, save up your money for a new used car. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Sandy: I've got a '95 Saturn also, an SL1, that's at 215,000+ miles. But there are several problems with the car that have accumulated over the last few months, the most serious of which seems to be the transmission. Currently it drives and shifts OK, but I'm hearing the beginning of banging and grinding noises, especially on the lower gears. And then besides all this, it overheats when the A/C is on (hopefully just a thermostat issue), it needs new tires, I'm told it needs an alignment, it leaks or burns oil at the rate of 2-3 quarts every 3,000 miles, and I'm beginning to think I may need a new battery. But even with all this, the car seems at the moment to be drivable. That said: I'm thinking I might be able to put $500-700 into the car and get everything taken care of except for the transmission. But I fear the transmission is a whole different animal...wouldn't that be hundreds of dollars just for someone to look at it...? So I'm wondering if I've finally reached the point where I need to junk the car. Melinda leans in that direction...I guess I do also, but we're not in a position, quite honestly, to buy a used car, much less a new one. It's a bit of a dilemma. :-o /Sandy/ // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Israel in Egypt
There are no external sources that discuss the Exodus. What we do have is an overall archaeological source that shows that Egypt lost power around this time in the Levant (the area around Canaan/Palestine/Israel), and it became a period when Sea Peoples (Philistines, etc) and Semites (including Israel) started settling the area. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever -- Stacy: I would like to know more about this and to confirm exactly what the Hebrews had to do in their slavery and how they left by other sources. Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Thrift!
At 05:17 PM 11/11/2003, you wrote: Steven, I remember running around in a jeep. Not mine, but it sure was fun to run across the desert out from El Paso. The Jeep I rode around in was a WWII Jeep manufactured by Ford, and had a small block Ford dropped into it. The problem was the driver, a friend of JWR me would twist off axels and I spent more than one night out in the desert fiddling with a broken Jeep. The only time I got stuck with my Jeep was when I high centered it near Steinaker Reservoir, north of Vernal. It was on a narrow steep ridge-line that sloped off both ways and also sloped off front and back. I couldn't winch it, had absolutely no traction on any wheels, and couldn't budge it myself. I ended up paying a tow truck $50. All he had to do was put out a long line and then pull me about 3 feet, just enough to get me going again. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do I err, then, in believing that the universe is built upon symbols, to the end that it may bear record of its all-wise Architect and Builder? God teaches with symbols; it is his favorite method of teaching. The Savior often used them. (Orson F. Whitney, Improvement Era, August 1927) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Thrift!
At 06:31 AM 11/12/2003 -0700, St Steven wrote: The only time I got stuck with my Jeep was when I high centered it near Steinaker Reservoir, north of Vernal. It was on a narrow steep ridge-line that sloped off both ways and also sloped off front and back. I couldn't winch it, had absolutely no traction on any wheels, and couldn't budge it myself. I ended up paying a tow truck $50. All he had to do was put out a long line and then pull me about 3 feet, just enough to get me going again. That's when bumper jacks shine. Just jack one end up as far as you can get it, then give it a shove to tip it over (if the cuss-ed thing hasn't tipped over already). Repeat until clear. Once turned a car completely around like that in a narrow cut driveway up to my wazoo in snow. Or, in this instance, you could possibly have put rocks under the wheels one at a time as you got them airborn. Sort of built up enough cairn to float it free. Till the been there done that // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
Whoever said we were supposed to be mainstream? Aren't we supposed to not be conformed to this world? Stacy. At 01:20 PM 10/31/2003 -0700, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: October 31, 2003 11:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out 99,997 ignored antagonists By Doug Robinson Deseret Morning News Like a lot of people, you're probably still trying to make sense of the ongoing debate regarding the street preachers and the stormin' Mormons. Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? I have walked past those preachers at the gates of the Conference Centre and have been tested to just walk on by and leave vengeance to God. Everything in the media patterns an aggressive response - well everything since that strange western TV series years ago where Grasshopper (David Carradine as Caine) was supposed to take all kinds of abuse, although it seems to me that in the end, even he, turned to Kung Fu (after all that's what the series was called) to solve his problems, his pacifism usually was what got him into trouble. If we continue to resist evil with good we will never be mainstream. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Thrift!
At 08:06 AM 11/12/2003, you wrote: At 06:31 AM 11/12/2003 -0700, St Steven wrote: The only time I got stuck with my Jeep was when I high centered it near Steinaker Reservoir, north of Vernal. It was on a narrow steep ridge-line that sloped off both ways and also sloped off front and back. I couldn't winch it, had absolutely no traction on any wheels, and couldn't budge it myself. I ended up paying a tow truck $50. All he had to do was put out a long line and then pull me about 3 feet, just enough to get me going again. That's when bumper jacks shine. Just jack one end up as far as you can get it, then give it a shove to tip it over (if the cuss-ed thing hasn't tipped over already). Repeat until clear. Once turned a car completely around like that in a narrow cut driveway up to my wazoo in snow. Or, in this instance, you could possibly have put rocks under the wheels one at a time as you got them airborn. Sort of built up enough cairn to float it free. Till the been there done that I agree. I still have several Handyman jacks. But, in the particular bind I was in, since I was at the pinnacle of a very narrow steep ridge, I didn't have anyplace to put the jack, it wouldn't hold no matter where I put it or tried to brace it, so--I broke down and paid $50.00 to have a tow truck nudge me just enough to get me off. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only constant in the world is change--Karl Marx // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom
I think that we will grow in power and influence and be a force to be reckoned with but that it will take a few more years. We have to have a very active base, and I don't believe that the majority of the people listed on the rolls are active. Stacy. At 09:00 AM 10/27/2003 -0900, you wrote: I have been reading THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom and I ran across an interesting statement on page 123: And who can believe that the Mormons ever would have turned away from the practice of Celestial Marriage, if it were not for federal pressure? No one, least of all in Salt Lake City, will be much inclined to accept a religious critic's foretellings, but I cheerfully do prophesy that some day, not too far on in the twenty-first century, the Mormons will have enough political and financial power to sanction polygamy again. Without it, in some form or other, the complete vision of Joseph Smith never can be fulfilled. Harold Bloom writes this as an outsider. He is an unbelieving Jew, an American gnostic. I find his statement interesting because I myself have come to the same conclusion for a number of reasons. What do you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Conversion
I have had problems with my own family also. Stacy. At 02:51 PM 10/26/2003 -0900, you wrote: Jim Cobabe wrote: I am continually wounded by discussions that use family metaphors regarding church fellowship. Over the past decade my family ties have been tested, both bonds with literal blood-relations and fellow saints. Many of the alliances I thought I could depend on came apart in times of trial, and some even turned around to become my personal stumbling-blocks. You just need a new family, Jim. And don't forget, you still have family that have not abandoned you. Seems like I had dinner with them just a few months back. Your point about having the right relationship with God is true, however. Ultimately, we all need a certain degree of self-sufficiency and our own relationship with the Holy Ghost. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Conversion
Social club? That was farthest from my mind while I was converting. In fact, my old church had doughnuts during the Sunday school hour and people who just sat around talking. Yes, it had degenerated into that. I was looking for something much more and I found it. Stacy. At 11:17 PM 10/26/2003 +, you wrote: New converts are not often full-grown in their testimony. They depend somewhat on socializing and fellowship to support their faith. As do we all. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
Stacy, That was my point exactly. We will not be mainstream if we continue to resist evil with good. The mainstream response would be to resist evil with evil. We are not conforming to the world in this, we are making our way following the principles outlined by Christ. Tom -Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 12, 2003 7:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out Whoever said we were supposed to be mainstream? Aren't we supposed to not be conformed to this world? Stacy. At 01:20 PM 10/31/2003 -0700, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: October 31, 2003 11:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out 99,997 ignored antagonists By Doug Robinson Deseret Morning News Like a lot of people, you're probably still trying to make sense of the ongoing debate regarding the street preachers and the stormin' Mormons. Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? I have walked past those preachers at the gates of the Conference Centre and have been tested to just walk on by and leave vengeance to God. Everything in the media patterns an aggressive response - well everything since that strange western TV series years ago where Grasshopper (David Carradine as Caine) was supposed to take all kinds of abuse, although it seems to me that in the end, even he, turned to Kung Fu (after all that's what the series was called) to solve his problems, his pacifism usually was what got him into trouble. If we continue to resist evil with good we will never be mainstream. Tom /// // / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Farinacci's Test
-Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 11, 2003 9:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Farinacci's Test Come on! Are you serious? Some of the questions are appropriate and some aren't. Stacy. Stacy, This test is not serious. It's a joke. Tom -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Conversion
-Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 12, 2003 8:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Conversion Social club? That was farthest from my mind while I was converting. In fact, my old church had doughnuts during the Sunday school hour and people who just sat around talking. Yes, it had degenerated into that. I was looking for something much more and I found it. Stacy. President Hinckley acknowledges the following need for every new convert (and for the rest of us I suppose), a friend, a responsibility and nurturing by the good word of God. To me those are the three things included in Moroni 6:4, where we are numbered (fellowshipped or friendshipped or if your don't mind, socialized) named (which is, for me, a code word for the process of being given a call where our name is read out before the congregation for a sustaining vote) and nourished by the good word of God (which is the teaching and spiritual worship that we enjoy together as meet together oft - following on in the next verse or two). Does that mean we are a social club. Well, in a sense yes, but a great deal more than that. President Hinckley recognizes that socialization is necessary as well as the spiritual and service components of the church. Incidentally, one of the reasons given in training that I have received, for the removal of missionary farewells and homecomings is so that the objective of nurturing by the good word of God can be increased and given greater emphasis. The homecoming and farewell model for sacrament meeting tends, very often, to deemphasize gospel topics and focus on individual and family issues that are exclusionary to those not in that family or closely aligned with it. Too many shaggy dog stories about the youngster now called as a missionary and not enough gospel teaching. We get the same counsel about funerals a lot too. Which is one reason that I speak at every funeral I attend in my stake. My point is to try to add some balance between the gospel message and the celebration of the life of the deceased. I started out only speaking when the balance needed to be tipped, in my opinion, but later decided that it could never be too much tipped in favour of the comforting and saving doctrines of the resurrection and redemption through Jesus Christ, so I always have something to say. But the family dinner after the funeral is sometimes as comforting and important as the service and the sermons, so there has to be some socialization, even if that means funeral potatoes instead of doughnuts. Tom At 11:17 PM 10/26/2003 +, you wrote: New converts are not often full-grown in their testimony. They depend somewhat on socializing and fellowship to support their faith. As do we all. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] strengthening new converts
At 09:14 AM 10/24/2003 -0400, you wrote: This is an autoresponder. I'll never see your message. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Gun Control Impossible in the USA
-Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 11, 2003 1:04 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Gun Control Impossible in the USA All the talk of gun control is really quite besides the point. The fact is, the government in the United States couldn't control the guns even if it could pass the legislation. They can't even control the drugs. This country is completely out of control, and until there is widespread national repentance things will only get worse. --JWR John, What are the correlating factors between gun ownership and illegal drug usage that lead you to make this comparison? Are you suggesting that, like drugs, gun ownership is an activity used to escape from the harshness or boredom of everyday life that is so highly addictive that people are willing to lose or risk everything to pursue it, and therefore it cannot be controlled by lawful means? If that's not the case, what is the correlation? Or are you saying that laws can't control anything because they can't control drugs? Or are you just trolling to try to revive the always popular and divisive gun control thread? Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
Gerald Smith wrote: But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). Those who are mortal now don't have enough knowledge to choose to be Sons of Perdition, but what about after the resurrection of the wicked? Isn't there going to be another great war after the Millennium? Those who fight against Christ as resurrected beings following the resurrection of the wicked will have enough knowledge then, won't they? Or is this war going to be fought strictly between those who are mortal upon the earth then? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Old Jeeps
Steven Montgomery wrote: I agree. I still have several Handyman jacks. But, in the particular bind I was in, since I was at the pinnacle of a very narrow steep ridge, I didn't have anyplace to put the jack, it wouldn't hold no matter where I put it or tried to brace it, so--I broke down and paid $50.00 to have a tow truck nudge me just enough to get me off. John English told of a jeep that belonged to a friend of ours, Fred Evans, that we cruised the deserts with around El Paso when we were young. But I have a story about Fred and his jeep that John may never have heard: On the 4th of July in 1973 I went out to Kilbourne Hole northwest of El Paso with my roommate Don Riding in his little Ford Pinto. It was about 105 degrees in the shade. Well, we got stuck in some soft sand in a dry creek bottom on the road, and we had to walk out, a really terrifying experience because so many die of dehydration in the same situation. We finally came to a deep well farm, and telephoned for a tow truck. The tow truck got stuck trying to pull us out. Then a second tow truck got stuck trying to pull out the first tow truck. Finally, we called Fred who brought his old WWII jeep out. Fred had better sense than to get down into the depression where the pinto and two tow trucks were stuck. He stayed up on the ridge and let out his winch. First he pulled out one tow truck, then the other, and finally the Pinto. Both the tow truck operators were so embarrassed. They had tried so hard to get out of the depression they had badly damaged their trucks on the rocks, tearing off their mufflers and doing body damage. It was late that night when all of us got home. Boy were we tired. And thank heaven for Fred and his old jeep. Did you ever hear that one, John? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
I think this is a relevant point. Those who see Christ come to govern during the millenial reign will have enough knowledge in all probability. Stacy. At 10:21 AM 11/12/2003 -0900, you wrote: Gerald Smith wrote: But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). Those who are mortal now don't have enough knowledge to choose to be Sons of Perdition, but what about after the resurrection of the wicked? Isn't there going to be another great war after the Millennium? Those who fight against Christ as resurrected beings following the resurrection of the wicked will have enough knowledge then, won't they? Or is this war going to be fought strictly between those who are mortal upon the earth then? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Old Jeeps
John W. Redelfs wrote: . Finally, we called Fred who brought his old WWII jeep out. Fred had better sense than to get down into the depression where the pinto and two tow trucks were stuck. He stayed up on the ridge and let out his winch. First he pulled out one tow truck, then the other, and finally the Pinto. Both the tow truck operators were so embarrassed. They had tried so hard to get out of the depression they had badly damaged their trucks on the rocks, tearing off their mufflers and doing body damage. It was late that night when all of us got home. Boy were we tired. And thank heaven for Fred and his old jeep. Hey, I heard that one and I don't even know Fred. It was told by Harold B. Lee in about the same words: Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye In Holy Places, p.186 You cannot lift another soul until you are standing on higher ground than he is. You must be sure, if you would rescue the man, that you yourself are setting the example of what you would have him be. You cannot light a fire in another soul unless it is burning in your own soul. You teachers, the testimony that you bear, the spirit with which you teach and with which you lead, is one of the most important assets that you can have, as you help to strengthen those who need so much, wherein you have so much to give. Who of us, in whatever station we may have been in, have not needed strengthening? Tom Did you ever hear that one, John? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her executed at any time according to my own pleasure. It gives me great comfort! (The Little Princess) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Gun Control Impossible in the USA
Tom Matkin wrote: What are the correlating factors between gun ownership and illegal drug usage that lead you to make this comparison? Are you suggesting that, like drugs, gun ownership is an activity used to escape from the harshness or boredom of everyday life that is so highly addictive that people are willing to lose or risk everything to pursue it, and therefore it cannot be controlled by lawful means? If that's not the case, what is the correlation? Or are you saying that laws can't control anything because they can't control drugs? Or are you just trolling to try to revive the always popular and divisive gun control thread? There is no correlation between drugs and guns except that they are both examples of something that the law cannot control, or at least cannot eliminate. And yes, I was just trolling. I ran across an old post and just reposted it. grin --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
I guess it all depends on whose stream you are in that determines whether we are mainstream or not. When it comes to following the Lord's prophets, I'll try my best to be as mainstream as possible. Interesting how hard it is to turn the other cheek at times. Do we do as the pacifist Lamanites and lay down our weapons of war, or do we send off our sons to do the fighting for us, as they did? I guess it depends upon each and every situation, and what God expects in that moment of decision. Since these anti-Mormon demonstrators are not physically attacking the saints, there should be no reason to get physical ourselves. Only in the event of an actual attack should we consider fighting, and then only in self defense if possible. Of course, there always are exceptions, such as when God told Nephi to slay Laban (somewhat pre-emptive, I must say). But there is a standard, and then there are exceptions, and we should preach, teach and follow the standard. Gary Smith Tom Matkin wrote: Stacy, That was my point exactly. We will not be mainstream if we continue to resist evil with good. The mainstream response would be to resist evil with evil. We are not conforming to the world in this, we are making our way following the principles outlined by Christ. Tom -Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 12, 2003 7:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out Whoever said we were supposed to be mainstream? Aren't we supposed to not be conformed to this world? Stacy. At 01:20 PM 10/31/2003 -0700, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: October 31, 2003 11:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out 99,997 ignored antagonists By Doug Robinson Deseret Morning News Like a lot of people, you're probably still trying to make sense of the ongoing debate regarding the street preachers and the stormin' Mormons. Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? I have walked past those preachers at the gates of the Conference Centre and have been tested to just walk on by and leave vengeance to God. Everything in the media patterns an aggressive response - well everything since that strange western TV series years ago where Grasshopper (David Carradine as Caine) was supposed to take all kinds of abuse, although it seems to me that in the end, even he, turned to Kung Fu (after all that's what the series was called) to solve his problems, his pacifism usually was what got him into trouble. If we continue to resist evil with good we will never be mainstream. Tom /// // / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
There may very well be resurrected beings in this event. However, once resurrection occurs, IMHO, the desires for evil or good are already established. Once Satan is loosed, he will gather an army from amongst those still living upon the earth. However, it will not be anywhere near the numbers he has already taken with him. In a world populated with 10 billion people, I would imagine his army would be in the millions at most. Now, will that final war be fought just amongst mortals, or will it also be fought by spiritual beings on both sides, also? (on the lines of the legendary last battles of the Norse Gods at Ragnarock?) Gary Smith John W. Redelfs wrote: Gerald Smith wrote: But the longlasting Outer Darkness made for Sons of Perdition is a place which already will be quite filled with the third of heaven that has already chosen it. Given 16 billion people estimated have already walked the earth, that means a minimum of 8 billion spirits rejected God in the Spirit World. There just won't be very many mortals going there, as they don't have enough knowledge to choose it (and given they have already rejected Satan's plan once, most probably won't change their minds and choose his plan later). Those who are mortal now don't have enough knowledge to choose to be Sons of Perdition, but what about after the resurrection of the wicked? Isn't there going to be another great war after the Millennium? Those who fight against Christ as resurrected beings following the resurrection of the wicked will have enough knowledge then, won't they? Or is this war going to be fought strictly between those who are mortal upon the earth then? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
John W. Redelfs wrote: Stephen Beecroft wrote: Christopher Hitchens hates Mother Teresa. This is not a secret. Given some of Hitchens' proclivities, I am not necessarily prone to uncritical acceptance of his viewpoint, but the man is very intelligent and, I think, makes a few good points. (Not that I know enough about the issues to make an informed judgment.) Given the praise of Mother Teresa taking place when I first returned to this list a few weeks back, I thought some might find this piece interesting, even despite its URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2090083/ Excerpt: MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had beenshe preferred California clinics when she got sick herselfand her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility? The rich world has a poor conscience, and many people liked to alleviate their own unease by sending money to a woman who seemed like an activist for 'the poorest of the poor.' People do not like to admit that they have been gulled or conned, so a vested interest in the myth was permitted to arise, and a lazy media never bothered to ask any follow-up questions. Many volunteers who went to Calcutta came back abruptly disillusioned by the stern ideology and poverty-loving practice of the 'Missionaries of Charity,' but they had no audience for their story. George Orwell's admonition in his essay on Gandhithat saints should always be presumed guilty until proved innocentwas drowned in a Niagara of soft-hearted, soft-headed, and uninquiring propaganda. Not only that, but according to Christ, almsgiving is to be done anonymously. Mother Theresa was FAMOUS for her unselfishness. Just how unselfish can giving be when it brings that kind of fame? --JWR Two points: 1)To my knowledge, Mother Thereas did not publicize her good deeeds, her life-long work with the poor. 2. To my knowledge, the Church does publicize its donations to worth causes around the world. Given that, John, S'plain your comments above. Be sure to cc me on the message (Reply to all) if you're seeking further comment from me on the subject as I'm reading only at the website from time to time. Ron Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not only that, but according to Christ, almsgiving is to be done anonymously. Mother Theresa was FAMOUS for her unselfishness. Just how unselfish can giving be when it brings that kind of fame? --JWR Two points: 1)To my knowledge, Mother Thereas did not publicize her good deeeds, her life-long work with the poor. 2. To my knowledge, the Church does publicize its donations to worth causes around the world. Given that, John, S'plain your comments above. Be sure to cc me on the message (Reply to all) if you're seeking further comment from me on the subject as I'm reading only at the website from time to time. Inasmuch as Mother Theresa was an effective fund raiser for her work among the poor, I'm sure she did publicize her good deeds. And I don't always approve of everything the Church does. I just don't complain about it because I'm sure that either 1) I'll find out where I was mistaken or 2) the Lord will inspire his prophets to make changes. The truth is, Ron, I don't know that much about Mother Theresa. There are a lot of good people outside of the Church. Perhaps she was one of them. I'm still convinced that the best people are inside the Church. I have to believe that or discount the need for the gospel in the world. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
Jim Cobabe wrote: submits Deseret News Column 99,997 ignored antagonists By Doug Robinson Deseret Morning News snip Most of those attending General Conference probably did ask themselves, as some critics have suggested, What would Jesus do? and then did it. Three people asked themselves, What would John Wayne do? and did that. All people remember are those three. I know Doug Robinson is not dense, but it seems to me that he should have figured out long ago that in these hyper-media times John Wayne types would get more attention than the meek and mild of the world. The fallout from the demonstrations around Temple Square this Fall has been interesting. A high school classmate of mine, an ACLU lawyer, was absolutely disgusted by the vile protestors and so were many, most of her colleagues. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
The truth is, Ron, I don't know that much about Mother Theresa. There are a lot of good people outside of the Church. Perhaps she was one of them. I'm still convinced that the best people are inside the Church. I have to believe that or discount the need for the gospel in the world. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not so sure the best people are inside the Church. I know the people in the Church who are earnestly striving to keep their covenants are much the better for it and that those outside the Church would be better off with the ordinances and teachings of the Church. We can only be perfected through the ordinances and repentance, so our potential is much higher than it is for those who don't have the Church. But whether enough of us meet that potential... I don't know. I'm often in great admiration of the good character and clean living of many people totally outside the Church. These wonderful honorable (adjective chosen carefully) people of the earth do it without the Holy Ghost, without the teachings, and without the encouragement that comes with understanding the doctrines. Many, I'm sure, have not had an adequate opportunity to accept or reject the gospel. Have you ever read Corrie Ten Boom's book The Hiding Place. What a tale of wonderful Christian people. Would that any of us could live as well as Corrie, her sister or her father. I've always thought well of Mother Teresa as well and don't understand the need some people have to throw mud at her. Of course if I have a vested interest in promoting birth control in third world countries I might see her as a threat. Of course there are detractors for Joseph Smith, Gordon B. Hinckley and even Jesus Christ had some strong enemies. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
The people of the earth often get messages from the Holy Ghost; they just don't always have Him with them. Neither do we if we're not living right. Stacy. At 04:30 PM 11/12/2003 -0700, you wrote: The truth is, Ron, I don't know that much about Mother Theresa. There are a lot of good people outside of the Church. Perhaps she was one of them. I'm still convinced that the best people are inside the Church. I have to believe that or discount the need for the gospel in the world. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not so sure the best people are inside the Church. I know the people in the Church who are earnestly striving to keep their covenants are much the better for it and that those outside the Church would be better off with the ordinances and teachings of the Church. We can only be perfected through the ordinances and repentance, so our potential is much higher than it is for those who don't have the Church. But whether enough of us meet that potential... I don't know. I'm often in great admiration of the good character and clean living of many people totally outside the Church. These wonderful honorable (adjective chosen carefully) people of the earth do it without the Holy Ghost, without the teachings, and without the encouragement that comes with understanding the doctrines. Many, I'm sure, have not had an adequate opportunity to accept or reject the gospel. Have you ever read Corrie Ten Boom's book The Hiding Place. What a tale of wonderful Christian people. Would that any of us could live as well as Corrie, her sister or her father. I've always thought well of Mother Teresa as well and don't understand the need some people have to throw mud at her. Of course if I have a vested interest in promoting birth control in third world countries I might see her as a threat. Of course there are detractors for Joseph Smith, Gordon B. Hinckley and even Jesus Christ had some strong enemies. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
I grew up outside the Church and met a number of good, honorable, even Christlike people. But the most Christlike people I have ever known, by far, are a small number of Mormons that I have met since joining the Church. But that is just anecdotal. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Starts with G Gap
I love it when a baseball diamond has a section of the outfield sold to The Gap. I used to know what the Cumberland Gap was about, but it has left me. There's a place near here called Whiskey Gap, but there's only one house left there, and it's the old church now converted into a home. It's just 5 miles east of Immigration Gap, which never did have even one house, but was the place where the first settlers of Southern Alberta, coming from the south, crossed into Canada. A few people still cross there, apparently, although there is no legitimate border crossing there. Most of the traffic is in the night, I suppose. People speak of closing or bridging the gap. Orthodontists, I understand, are dedicated to eliminating the gap. The only gap in scripture is in Ezekiel: Ezekiel 22:30 30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. I have no idea what that means. President Benson said that in the true Latter Day Saint home there was no such thing as a generation gap. John P. Grier (whoever that was) said that that the biggest gap in the world is the gap between the justice of a cause and the motives of the people pushing it I suppose he knew what he was talking about. I could say what I think about the credibility gap, but I don't think you would believe me. Some people try to study the culture gap between indiginous peoples and European Americans, but the gap all but precludes any significant acculturation or accommodation, according to some experts. A spark can leap a gap, but probably not an alarming gap or even an ominous gap. Some desperate people turn to a stop-gap solution. Some apographical writings bridge the intertestamental gap. Usually one is disturbed by widening gaps and happier about narrowing gaps. But sometimes it's the other way around. George Orwell wrote that The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns, as it were instinctively, to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuddlefish squirting out ink. That fills the gap for me. Tom I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her executed at any time according to my own pleasure. It gives me great comfort! (The Little Princess) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts with G Gap
Don't forget the greed gap. That is the difference between a man's physiological needs, and his psychological needs for a particular standard of living. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Old Jeeps
John, NO, I did not hear about that, however we must be on about the same page. Ira and I and I'm not sure who else, but there were three of us that were going to make a movie in the desert. I took my dad's old IH pickup out in the desert - to Kilborne's hole and it broke down in the hole. We made it back to town, and the rest of the story is about the same. My dad had to pay the tow trucks (two of them) anyway, and I was in a heap of trouble. We got a ride out of the desert in the back of a pickup - and the night had settled in. Boy was it cold. Pax et Bonum, John A.E., n/OEF Life is a romantic business. It is painting a picture, not doing a sum -- but you have to make the romance, and it will come to the question how much fire you have in your belly. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 1:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Old Jeeps Steven Montgomery wrote: I agree. I still have several Handyman jacks. But, in the particular bind I was in, since I was at the pinnacle of a very narrow steep ridge, I didn't have anyplace to put the jack, it wouldn't hold no matter where I put it or tried to brace it, so--I broke down and paid $50.00 to have a tow truck nudge me just enough to get me off. John English told of a jeep that belonged to a friend of ours, Fred Evans, that we cruised the deserts with around El Paso when we were young. But I have a story about Fred and his jeep that John may never have heard: On the 4th of July in 1973 I went out to Kilbourne Hole northwest of El Paso with my roommate Don Riding in his little Ford Pinto. It was about 105 degrees in the shade. Well, we got stuck in some soft sand in a dry creek bottom on the road, and we had to walk out, a really terrifying experience because so many die of dehydration in the same situation. We finally came to a deep well farm, and telephoned for a tow truck. The tow truck got stuck trying to pull us out. Then a second tow truck got stuck trying to pull out the first tow truck. Finally, we called Fred who brought his old WWII jeep out. Fred had better sense than to get down into the depression where the pinto and two tow trucks were stuck. He stayed up on the ridge and let out his winch. First he pulled out one tow truck, then the other, and finally the Pinto. Both the tow truck operators were so embarrassed. They had tried so hard to get out of the depression they had badly damaged their trucks on the rocks, tearing off their mufflers and doing body damage. It was late that night when all of us got home. Boy were we tired. And thank heaven for Fred and his old jeep. Did you ever hear that one, John? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Old Jeeps
John A. English, n/OEF wrote: NO, I did not hear about that, however we must be on about the same page. Ira and I and I'm not sure who else, but there were three of us that were going to make a movie in the desert. I took my dad's old IH pickup out in the desert - to Kilborne's hole and it broke down in the hole. We made it back to town, and the rest of the story is about the same. My dad had to pay the tow trucks (two of them) anyway, and I was in a heap of trouble. We got a ride out of the desert in the back of a pickup - and the night had settled in. Boy was it cold. I think I must be confusing the two incidents, because I dimly remember an old green pickup. I think it was green. Anyway, it must have been you, me and Ira. The incident on July 4, 1973 with the Ford Pinto must have been another time. Sometimes I wonder if my mood swings aren't causing me permanent brain damage. Maybe it is early onset Alzheimers. Dang! Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Old Jeeps
John W. Redelfs wrote: Maybe it is early onset Alzheimers. Dang! Grampa Bill comments: Not likely. Early Alzheimers predominently afftects short term memory... not interesting life memories that happened years ago. They say that as you age, your memory is the second thing to go. Unfortunately, I can't remember what the first thing is. Also can't remember if I've used this line before in this forum. Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Sons of Perdition
At 01:16 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote: Once Satan is loosed, he will gather an army from amongst those still living upon the earth. However, it will not be anywhere near the numbers he has already taken with him. In a world populated with 10 billion people, I would imagine his army would be in the millions at most. From my understanding and as Brother McConkie indicates This final great battle, in which evil spirits, mortal men, and resurrected personages all participate, will be the end of war as far as this earth is concernedI believe that the final battle includes these evil spirits or in other words the 1/3 of the host of heaven that was kicked out with Satan. If this is the case it surely would be more than millions. -- Lew -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
