subject:"\[AFMUG\] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games\?"

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-24 Thread Simon Westlake

You could try, but what's the point? It doesn't really solve any problems.

On Jun 24, 2017 8:55 AM, "Kurt Fankhauser" <lists.wavel...@gmail.com> wrote:

> How about doing Protocal Specific UBB??? So 10GB allowance of VPN specific
> traffic each month with unlimited everything else? I'm sure this can be
> done with Powercode/Procera combination.
>
> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Robert <i...@avantwireless.com> wrote:
>
>> i.e.  AT blocking port 25?   I can't think of a more asinine thing to
>> do to customers that might have a clue...
>>
>> On 6/23/17 5:53 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:21 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net >> af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't think blocking VPNs or SSL would be reasonable network
>>> management. I don't think outright blocking any legal content would
>>> be considered reasonable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+In
>>> telligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/
>>> company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com
>>> /company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> *From: *"Sean Heskett" <af...@zirkel.us <mailto:af...@zirkel.us>>
>>> *To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
>>> *Sent: *Friday, June 23, 2017 7:20:13 PM
>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>> I completely agree with you on all those points josh.  It's a stupid
>>> thing to do for many reasons, but being illegal is not one of those
>>> reasons.
>>>
>>> I'm not picking a fight, just trying to clear the air about the
>>> legalities in regards to DPI rules to block or throttle a traffic
>>> type (such as VPN/SSL).  a lot of folks don't understand that
>>> "reasonable network management" is protected by the FCC NN rules.
>>>
>>> -sean
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com
>>> <mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the
>>> very people who make it possible for you to operate, when in
>>> reality you should be trying to find ways to get the government
>>> to stop handing out cruise ships full of money to companies to
>>> continue doing the same old shit.
>>>
>>> People do not want UBB.  Cable COs have been doing it for years
>>> to help stifle competition (online streaming) away from their
>>> money maker (cable tv + ad revenue).
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds
>>> <j...@kyneticwifi.com <mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> edit: s/can/can't/
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds
>>> <j...@kyneticwifi.com <mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Because you can discriminate based on traffic type
>>> except in the case of reasonable network management.
>>>  Not to mention you will block every single telework user
>>> in the process, along with many other types of content
>>> riding on that tunnel.
>>>
>>> I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an
>>> explain "I block VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun
>>> with that all you want.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett
>>> <af...@zirkel.us <

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-24 Thread Kurt Fankhauser

How about doing Protocal Specific UBB??? So 10GB allowance of VPN specific
traffic each month with unlimited everything else? I'm sure this can be
done with Powercode/Procera combination.

On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 12:30 AM, Robert <i...@avantwireless.com> wrote:

> i.e.  AT blocking port 25?   I can't think of a more asinine thing to do
> to customers that might have a clue...
>
> On 6/23/17 5:53 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
>
>> Agreed.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:21 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net > af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think blocking VPNs or SSL would be reasonable network
>> management. I don't think outright blocking any legal content would
>> be considered reasonable.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+In
>> telligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/
>> company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.
>> com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>> ----------------
>> 
>> *From: *"Sean Heskett" <af...@zirkel.us <mailto:af...@zirkel.us>>
>> *To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
>> *Sent: *Friday, June 23, 2017 7:20:13 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> I completely agree with you on all those points josh.  It's a stupid
>> thing to do for many reasons, but being illegal is not one of those
>> reasons.
>>
>> I'm not picking a fight, just trying to clear the air about the
>> legalities in regards to DPI rules to block or throttle a traffic
>> type (such as VPN/SSL).  a lot of folks don't understand that
>> "reasonable network management" is protected by the FCC NN rules.
>>
>> -sean
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com
>> <mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the
>> very people who make it possible for you to operate, when in
>> reality you should be trying to find ways to get the government
>> to stop handing out cruise ships full of money to companies to
>> continue doing the same old shit.
>>
>> People do not want UBB.  Cable COs have been doing it for years
>> to help stifle competition (online streaming) away from their
>> money maker (cable tv + ad revenue).
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds
>> <j...@kyneticwifi.com <mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
>>
>> edit: s/can/can't/
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds
>> <j...@kyneticwifi.com <mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Because you can discriminate based on traffic type
>> except in the case of reasonable network management.
>>Not to mention you will block every single telework user
>> in the process, along with many other types of content
>> riding on that tunnel.
>>
>> I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an
>> explain "I block VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun
>> with that all you want.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett
>> <af...@zirkel.us <mailto:af...@zirkel.us>> wrote:
>>
>> All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree
>> with you.  However, Josh said it was illegal and I
>> was pointing out that it is expressly legal to do
>> per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient
>> at fixing the problem but it is legal to do.
>>
>> -Sean
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-23 Thread Robert

i.e.  AT blocking port 25?   I can't think of a more asinine thing to 
do to customers that might have a clue...


On 6/23/17 5:53 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:

Agreed.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:21 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net 
<mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:


I don't think blocking VPNs or SSL would be reasonable network
management. I don't think outright blocking any legal content would
be considered reasonable.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>


<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

*From: *"Sean Heskett" <af...@zirkel.us <mailto:af...@zirkel.us>>
*To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Friday, June 23, 2017 7:20:13 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

I completely agree with you on all those points josh.  It's a stupid
thing to do for many reasons, but being illegal is not one of those
reasons.

I'm not picking a fight, just trying to clear the air about the
legalities in regards to DPI rules to block or throttle a traffic
type (such as VPN/SSL).  a lot of folks don't understand that
"reasonable network management" is protected by the FCC NN rules.

-sean


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com
<mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:

Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the
very people who make it possible for you to operate, when in
reality you should be trying to find ways to get the government
to stop handing out cruise ships full of money to companies to
continue doing the same old shit.

People do not want UBB.  Cable COs have been doing it for years
to help stifle competition (online streaming) away from their
money maker (cable tv + ad revenue).

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds
<j...@kyneticwifi.com <mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:

edit: s/can/can't/

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds
<j...@kyneticwifi.com <mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:

Because you can discriminate based on traffic type
except in the case of reasonable network management. 
Not to mention you will block every single telework user

in the process, along with many other types of content
riding on that tunnel.

I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an
explain "I block VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun
with that all you want.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett
<af...@zirkel.us <mailto:af...@zirkel.us>> wrote:

All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree
with you.  However, Josh said it was illegal and I
was pointing out that it is expressly legal to do
per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient
at fixing the problem but it is legal to do.

-Sean



On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com
<mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:

you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all
TLS type traffic, that is something I would
highly encourage any of my competitors to do...
Since a huge % of web traffic is https now,
netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is
hurting everyone's throughput for all of the
most common websites and applications.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett
<af...@zirkel.us <mailto:af...@zirkel.us>> wrote:

how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage
our networks as needed.

On F

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-23 Thread Josh Reynolds

Agreed.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:21 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:

> I don't think blocking VPNs or SSL would be reasonable network management.
> I don't think outright blocking any legal content would be considered
> reasonable.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> ------
> *From: *"Sean Heskett" <af...@zirkel.us>
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Friday, June 23, 2017 7:20:13 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> I completely agree with you on all those points josh.  It's a stupid thing
> to do for many reasons, but being illegal is not one of those reasons.
>
> I'm not picking a fight, just trying to clear the air about the legalities
> in regards to DPI rules to block or throttle a traffic type (such as
> VPN/SSL).  a lot of folks don't understand that "reasonable network
> management" is protected by the FCC NN rules.
>
> -sean
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the very people
>> who make it possible for you to operate, when in reality you should be
>> trying to find ways to get the government to stop handing out cruise ships
>> full of money to companies to continue doing the same old shit.
>>
>> People do not want UBB.  Cable COs have been doing it for years to help
>> stifle competition (online streaming) away from their money maker (cable tv
>> + ad revenue).
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> edit: s/can/can't/
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case
>>>> of reasonable network management.  Not to mention you will block every
>>>> single telework user in the process, along with many other types of content
>>>> riding on that tunnel.
>>>>
>>>> I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I
>>>> block VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun with that all you want.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.
>>>>> However, Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is
>>>>> expressly legal to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient 
>>>>> at
>>>>> fixing the problem but it is legal to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Sean
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic,
>>>>>> that is something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do...
>>>>>> Since a huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2,
>>>>>> youtube is https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting
>>>>>> everyone's throughput for all of the most common websites and 
>>>>>> applications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds <
>>>>>>> j...@kyneticwifi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And illegal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Josh
>&

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-23 Thread Eric Kuhnke

Legality and regulations aside, let's pretend for a minute there is no such
thing as the FCC or Industry Canada and it's a total free-for-all. I have
seen people spend a lot of time, money and effort on attempting to
implement DPI solutions using various vendors' semi-proprietary solutions,
and how to integrate them into their existing network. I have also seen
people spend a lot of money and person-hours in monthly billing
processes/customer headaches implementing UBB on a per-case basis for
individual customers.

In my opinion those person-hours, equipment purchase money and effort spent
on DPI and traffic categorization is better put towards improving your
backhaul situation, obtaining low cost IP transit at a major IX, setting up
peering where you can, and other capacity constraint issues in your own
network. If your goal is to get the traffic off your network and to/from
the content-provider ASes as soon as possible and as efficiently as
possible, and you focus on that, you will have better results.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com> wrote:

> Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the very people
> who make it possible for you to operate, when in reality you should be
> trying to find ways to get the government to stop handing out cruise ships
> full of money to companies to continue doing the same old shit.
>
> People do not want UBB.  Cable COs have been doing it for years to help
> stifle competition (online streaming) away from their money maker (cable tv
> + ad revenue).
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
> wrote:
>
>> edit: s/can/can't/
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case of
>>> reasonable network management.  Not to mention you will block every single
>>> telework user in the process, along with many other types of content riding
>>> on that tunnel.
>>>
>>> I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I block
>>> VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun with that all you want.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>> All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.
>>>> However, Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is
>>>> expressly legal to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient at
>>>> fixing the problem but it is legal to do.
>>>>
>>>> -Sean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic,
>>>>> that is something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do...
>>>>> Since a huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2,
>>>>> youtube is https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting
>>>>> everyone's throughput for all of the most common websites and 
>>>>> applications.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And illegal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Josh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett" <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We go from bad idea to worse?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>>>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>>>>>>> <https://

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-23 Thread Mike Hammett

I don't think blocking VPNs or SSL would be reasonable network management. I 
don't think outright blocking any legal content would be considered reasonable. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Sean Heskett" <af...@zirkel.us> 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 7:20:13 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 


I completely agree with you on all those points josh. It's a stupid thing to do 
for many reasons, but being illegal is not one of those reasons. 


I'm not picking a fight, just trying to clear the air about the legalities in 
regards to DPI rules to block or throttle a traffic type (such as VPN/SSL). a 
lot of folks don't understand that "reasonable network management" is protected 
by the FCC NN rules. 


-sean 




On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 




Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the very people who 
make it possible for you to operate, when in reality you should be trying to 
find ways to get the government to stop handing out cruise ships full of money 
to companies to continue doing the same old shit. 


People do not want UBB. Cable COs have been doing it for years to help stifle 
competition (online streaming) away from their money maker (cable tv + ad 
revenue). 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 




edit: s/can/can't/ 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 






Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case of 
reasonable network management. Not to mention you will block every single 
telework user in the process, along with many other types of content riding on 
that tunnel. 


I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I block VPNs" 
to the FCC. You can have fun with that all you want. 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett < af...@zirkel.us > wrote: 





All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you. However, Josh 
said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is expressly legal to do per 
the FCC NN rules. It's not smart or efficient at fixing the problem but it is 
legal to do. 


-Sean 






On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > wrote: 





you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that is 
something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since a huge 
% of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is 
https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's throughput 
for all of the most common websites and applications. 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett < af...@zirkel.us > wrote: 



how is it illegal? FCC says we can manage our networks as needed. 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 





And illegal. 


- Josh 




On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett" < af...@ics-il.net > wrote: 






We go from bad idea to worse? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 






From: "Kurt Fankhauser" < lists.wavel...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 


Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if the 
customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it off? 


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy < jeremysmi...@gmail.com > wrote: 



On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track their 
specific usage. We tell them that their are routers like the Fortigate which 
can track usage, but that we do not support those devices. I tell them that I 
think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have no experience with 
these devices. "The only way that we track which websites are visited and what 
you are doing on the Internet is with a warrant or an order from the Department 
of Justice". We stand behind our usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay 
the bill then they can find another provider. We have lost two or three 
customers over four years who refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending 
those ones to collections. We just go and collect our equipment and write it 
off as bad debt. 




On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 


That's an interesting point. 


-- Original Message -- 
From: "Stefan Englhardt" < s...@genias.net > 
To: af@afmug.com ; "Wireless Administrator" < wirel...@htn.net > 
Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM 


Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB g

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-23 Thread Josh Reynolds

Listen, at the end of the day you're consider penalizing the very people
who make it possible for you to operate, when in reality you should be
trying to find ways to get the government to stop handing out cruise ships
full of money to companies to continue doing the same old shit.

People do not want UBB.  Cable COs have been doing it for years to help
stifle competition (online streaming) away from their money maker (cable tv
+ ad revenue).

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com> wrote:

> edit: s/can/can't/
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case of
>> reasonable network management.  Not to mention you will block every single
>> telework user in the process, along with many other types of content riding
>> on that tunnel.
>>
>> I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I block
>> VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun with that all you want.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote:
>>
>>> All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.  However,
>>> Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is expressly legal
>>> to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient at fixing the
>>> problem but it is legal to do.
>>>
>>> -Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that
>>>> is something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since
>>>> a huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
>>>> https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's
>>>> throughput for all of the most common websites and applications.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> And illegal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Josh
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett" <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We go from bad idea to worse?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>>>>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" <lists.wavel...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>>>>>>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if
>>>>>>> the customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with 
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> off?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On that point, we tell them that it is

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-23 Thread Josh Reynolds

edit: s/can/can't/

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com> wrote:

> Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case of
> reasonable network management.  Not to mention you will block every single
> telework user in the process, along with many other types of content riding
> on that tunnel.
>
> I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I block
> VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun with that all you want.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote:
>
>> All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.  However,
>> Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is expressly legal
>> to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient at fixing the
>> problem but it is legal to do.
>>
>> -Sean
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that
>>> is something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since
>>> a huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
>>> https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's
>>> throughput for all of the most common websites and applications.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And illegal.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Josh
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett" <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> We go from bad idea to worse?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>>>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" <lists.wavel...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>>>>>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if
>>>>>> the customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it
>>>>>> off?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to
>>>>>>> track their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those 
>>>>>>> devices.
>>>>>>> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we 
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
>>>>>>> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
>>>>>>> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind 
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can 
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-23 Thread Josh Reynolds

Because you can discriminate based on traffic type except in the case of
reasonable network management.  Not to mention you will block every single
telework user in the process, along with many other types of content riding
on that tunnel.

I'll say this, I would not be the one to want to try an explain "I block
VPNs" to the FCC.  You can have fun with that all you want.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote:

> All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.  However,
> Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is expressly legal
> to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient at fixing the
> problem but it is legal to do.
>
> -Sean
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that
>> is something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since
>> a huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
>> https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's
>> throughput for all of the most common websites and applications.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote:
>>
>>> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And illegal.
>>>>
>>>> - Josh
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett" <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We go from bad idea to worse?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>>>>> --
>>>>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" <lists.wavel...@gmail.com>
>>>>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>>>>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if
>>>>> the customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it
>>>>> off?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to
>>>>>> track their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
>>>>>> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those 
>>>>>> devices.
>>>>>> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we 
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
>>>>>> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
>>>>>> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
>>>>>> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can 
>>>>>> find
>>>>>> another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years 
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
>>>>>> collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as 
>>>>>> bad
>>>>>> debt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gma

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-23 Thread Sean Heskett

All of that is very true Eric and I completely agree with you.  However,
Josh said it was illegal and I was pointing out that it is expressly legal
to do per the FCC NN rules.  It's not smart or efficient at fixing the
problem but it is legal to do.

-Sean



On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that is
> something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since a
> huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
> https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's
> throughput for all of the most common websites and applications.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote:
>
>> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> And illegal.
>>>
>>> - Josh
>>>
>>> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett" <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We go from bad idea to worse?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>>>> --
>>>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" <lists.wavel...@gmail.com>
>>>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>>>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>>
>>>> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if
>>>> the customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it
>>>> off?
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track
>>>>> their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
>>>>> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those devices.
>>>>> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we 
>>>>> have
>>>>> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
>>>>> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
>>>>> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
>>>>> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can find
>>>>> another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years who
>>>>> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
>>>>> collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as bad
>>>>> debt.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That's an interesting point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Original Message --
>>>>>> From: "Stefan Englhardt" <s...@genias.net>
>>>>>> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net>
>>>>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to
>>>>>>> pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family 
>>>>>>> member,
>>>>>>> what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use 
&

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-23 Thread Eric Kuhnke

you go right ahead and do DPI / deprioritize all TLS type traffic, that is
something I would highly encourage any of my competitors to do... Since a
huge % of web traffic is https now, netflix is https/tls1.2, youtube is
https/tls1.2, etc, all you would accomplish is hurting everyone's
throughput for all of the most common websites and applications.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Sean Heskett <af...@zirkel.us> wrote:

> how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
> wrote:
>
>> And illegal.
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett" <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:
>>
>>> We go from bad idea to worse?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>>> --
>>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" <lists.wavel...@gmail.com>
>>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if the
>>> customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it off?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy <jeremysmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track
>>>> their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
>>>> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those devices.
>>>> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have
>>>> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
>>>> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
>>>> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
>>>> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can find
>>>> another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years who
>>>> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
>>>> collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as bad
>>>> debt.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That's an interesting point.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Original Message --
>>>>> From: "Stefan Englhardt" <s...@genias.net>
>>>>> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net>
>>>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>>>
>>>>> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to
>>>>>> pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member,
>>>>>> what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai 
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view
>>>>>> Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers
>>>>>> had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +0000
>>>>>>  "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.
>>>>>>> Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to 
>>>>>>> implement
>>>&

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-23 Thread Sean Heskett

how is it illegal?  FCC says we can manage our networks as needed.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:55 AM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
wrote:

> And illegal.
>
> - Josh
>
> On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett" <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:
>
>> We go from bad idea to worse?
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>> --
>> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" <lists.wavel...@gmail.com>
>> *To: *af@afmug.com
>> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if the
>> customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it off?
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy <jeremysmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track
>>> their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
>>> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those devices.
>>> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have
>>> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
>>> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
>>> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
>>> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can find
>>> another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years who
>>> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
>>> collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as bad
>>> debt.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That's an interesting point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- Original Message --
>>>> From: "Stefan Englhardt" <s...@genias.net>
>>>> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net>
>>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>>
>>>> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to
>>>>> pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member,
>>>>> what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai 
>>>>> ...
>>>>> You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view
>>>>> Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers
>>>>> had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
>>>>>  "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.
>>>>>> Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to 
>>>>>> implement
>>>>>> it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it
>>>>>> really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have 
>>>>>> already
>>>>>> implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem to have an automated
>>>>>> process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our 
>>>>>> industry
>>>>>> will not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I 
>>>>>> coined)
>>>>>> is the way ….
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-23 Thread Josh Reynolds

And illegal.

- Josh

On Jun 22, 2017 11:22 AM, "Mike Hammett" <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:

> We go from bad idea to worse?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> ------
> *From: *"Kurt Fankhauser" <lists.wavel...@gmail.com>
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if the
> customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it off?
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy <jeremysmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track
>> their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
>> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those devices.
>> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have
>> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
>> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
>> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
>> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can find
>> another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years who
>> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
>> collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as bad
>> debt.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That's an interesting point.
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Stefan Englhardt" <s...@genias.net>
>>> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net>
>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to
>>>> pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member,
>>>> what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai 
>>>> ...
>>>> You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view
>>>> Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers
>>>> had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
>>>>  "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.
>>>>> Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to implement
>>>>> it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it
>>>>> really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already
>>>>> implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem to have an automated
>>>>> process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our industry
>>>>> will not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I 
>>>>> coined)
>>>>> is the way ….
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
>>>>> Technologies
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
>>>>> To: Simon Westlake
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Simon,
>>>>>
>>>>> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does
>>>>> the baby need to be falling asleep wat

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-22 Thread Mike Hammett

We go from bad idea to worse? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Kurt Fankhauser" <lists.wavel...@gmail.com> 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:15:11 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 


Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if the 
customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it off? 


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy < jeremysmi...@gmail.com > wrote: 



On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track their 
specific usage. We tell them that their are routers like the Fortigate which 
can track usage, but that we do not support those devices. I tell them that I 
think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have no experience with 
these devices. "The only way that we track which websites are visited and what 
you are doing on the Internet is with a warrant or an order from the Department 
of Justice". We stand behind our usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay 
the bill then they can find another provider. We have lost two or three 
customers over four years who refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending 
those ones to collections. We just go and collect our equipment and write it 
off as bad debt. 




On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 


That's an interesting point. 


-- Original Message -- 
From: "Stefan Englhardt" < s...@genias.net > 
To: af@afmug.com ; "Wireless Administrator" < wirel...@htn.net > 
Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 



We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to pay 
surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member, what IP 
is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai ... 
You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view Euros. I 
am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers had to pay 
surplus. We have to do flat pricing. 

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 + 
"Wireless Administrator" < wirel...@htn.net > wrote: 


This industry is in trouble. Nobody wants usage based billing. Customers don’t 
want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to implement it for fear of 
losing customers. If you lose money on an account is it really an asset to your 
business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already implemented Usage Based Rate 
Adjustment. They seem to have an automated process to adjust rates that will 
force off the heavy users. Our industry will not get respect until it asks for 
it. UBB or UBRA (New term I coined) is the way …. 



Steve 



From: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka 
Technologies 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM 
To: Simon Westlake 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 



Simon, 

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing. Does the baby 
need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie? The best way I can put it is 
renting an apartment with utilities included. If I'm renting an apartment in FL 
with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68 24/7. The cat will be 
very comfortable all day, why should I care. However, if I'm paying for 
electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to 
deal with 72 when I get home. 

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still expensive. 
Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle the higher 
bandwidth internally. 
4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080 or 720 TV's. Why should someone who is 
willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as 
that guy that wants to watch in 4K. Why should a single person who just needs 
dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount as the 
family with 6 kids and 30 devices? Why should the kid willing to buy his game 
on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off 
the couch to change a disc? 
Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch fast 
and reliable service at a single low price. The electric company gets to charge 
per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell phone company 
charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell even the streaming 
companies get to put limits on the number of people that can stream per 
account. Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell 
breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards? 


-- Best regards, 
Mark  mailto: m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
< http://www.MyakkaTech.com > www.MyakkaTech.com 

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life 
< http://www.RelayForLif

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-22 Thread Simon Westlake

Yes, but it depends on the type of VPN. Some will only show up as SSL, 
so you'd have to just throttle all SSL traffic. If you've setup your 
rules to prioritize and shape traffic based on type though, it will 
probably happen anyway. For example, I have a rule setup in my house to 
prioritize gaming and voice traffic at the top, and streaming second. I 
limit total streaming to about 60% of my available capacity. I limit all 
software updates, backups, etc to a low rate (I think I have it at 
256Kbps) except between 1AM and 5AM. This has fixed pretty much every 
issue I have in my home with iPads, phones, etc, pushing backups during 
the day and saturating my upstream. If everything was encapsulated in a 
VPN, I'd be back to having latency spikes and issues with buffering.


On 6/22/2017 10:15 AM, Kurt Fankhauser wrote:
Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if 
the customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with 
it off?


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy <jeremysmi...@gmail.com 
<mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>> wrote:


On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to
track their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers
like the Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not
support those devices.  I tell them that I think the new Torch
router does it too, but that we have no experience with these
devices.  "The only way that we track which websites are visited
and what you are doing on the Internet is with a warrant or an
order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our usage
tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can
find another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over
four years who refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending
those ones to collections.  We just go and collect our equipment
and write it off as bad debt.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com
<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

That's an interesting point.


-- Original Message --
From: "Stefan Englhardt" <s...@genias.net <mailto:s...@genias.net>>
To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>; "Wireless
Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net <mailto:wirel...@htn.net>>
    Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer
who had to pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from
each single family member, what IP is this. Why cant you
tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai ...
You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute
for a view Euros. I am sure this service times cost us
more money than the customers had to pay surplus. We have
to do flat pricing.

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
 "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net
<mailto:wirel...@htn.net>> wrote:

This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based
billing.  Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons.
ISP’s are afraid to implement it for fear of losing
customers. If you lose money on an account is it
really an asset to your business? I feel that the
Large ISP’s have already implemented Usage Based Rate
Adjustment. They seem to have an automated process to
adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our
industry will not get respect until it asks for it.
UBB or UBRA (New term I coined) is the way ….



Steve



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] On Behalf Of Mark -
Myakka Technologies
    Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
    To: Simon Westlake
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and
100GB games?



Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they
are doing.  Does the baby need to be falling asleep
watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put it is
renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm
renting an apartment in FL with electric included, my
AC is going to be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will be
very comfortable all day, why should I care.  However,
if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal
with 78 during the day and I may have to deal with 72
when I get home.

Bandwidth

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-22 Thread Kurt Fankhauser

Can you block/throttle a VPN connection with DPI? Make it so that if the
customer turns it on the VPN their connection gets worse than with it off?

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Jeremy <jeremysmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track
> their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
> Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those devices.
> I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have
> no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
> websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
> warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
> usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can find
> another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years who
> refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
> collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as bad
> debt.
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> That's an interesting point.
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Stefan Englhardt" <s...@genias.net>
>> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net>
>> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to pay
>>> surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member, what
>>> IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai ...
>>> You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view
>>> Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers
>>> had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
>>>  "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.
>>>> Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to implement
>>>> it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it
>>>> really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already
>>>> implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem to have an automated
>>>> process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our industry
>>>> will not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I coined)
>>>> is the way ….
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
>>>> Technologies
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
>>>> To: Simon Westlake
>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Simon,
>>>>
>>>> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does
>>>> the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can
>>>> put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an
>>>> apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68
>>>> 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.
>>>> However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78
>>>> during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.
>>>>
>>>> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still
>>>> expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle
>>>> the higher bandwidth internally.
>>>> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who
>>>> is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the
>>>> same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who
>>>> just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same
>>>> amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid
>>>> willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who
>>>> doesn't want to get up off the couch to change a disc?
>>>> Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top
>>>> notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The el

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Jeremy

On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track
their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those devices.
I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have
no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can find
another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years who
refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as bad
debt.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's an interesting point.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Stefan Englhardt" <s...@genias.net>
> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net>
> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to pay
>> surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member, what
>> IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai ...
>> You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view
>> Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers
>> had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.
>>
>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
>>  "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net> wrote:
>>
>>> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.
>>> Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to implement
>>> it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it
>>> really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already
>>> implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem to have an automated
>>> process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our industry
>>> will not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I coined)
>>> is the way ….
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
>>> Technologies
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
>>> To: Simon Westlake
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Simon,
>>>
>>> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does
>>> the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can
>>> put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an
>>> apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68
>>> 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.
>>> However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78
>>> during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.
>>>
>>> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still
>>> expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle
>>> the higher bandwidth internally.
>>> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who
>>> is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the
>>> same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who
>>> just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same
>>> amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid
>>> willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who
>>> doesn't want to get up off the couch to change a disc?
>>> Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top
>>> notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric
>>> company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per
>>> person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges
>>> per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits on the number
>>> of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user
>>> to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards?
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Best regards,
>>> Mark<mail

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Adam Moffett

That's an interesting point.

-- Original Message --
From: "Stefan Englhardt" <s...@genias.net>
To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net>
Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to 
pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family 
member, what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont 
use Akamai ...
You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view 
Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the 
customers had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
 "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net> wrote:
This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.  
Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to 
implement it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an 
account is it really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large 
ISP’s have already implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem 
to have an automated process to adjust rates that will force off the 
heavy users.  Our industry will not get respect until it asks for it.  
UBB or UBRA (New term I coined) is the way ….

Steve

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka 
Technologies

Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
To: Simon Westlake
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does 
the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way 
I can put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm 
renting an apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to 
be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why 
should I care.  However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have 
to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I 
get home.

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still 
expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to 
handle the higher bandwidth internally.
4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone 
who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to 
pay the same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a 
single person who just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be 
force to pay the same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices? 
 Why should the kid willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay 
the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off the couch to change 
a disc?
Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top 
notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric 
company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per 
person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite 
charges per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits 
on the number of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when 
we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and 
we are the greedy bastards?

-- Best regards,
Mark<mailto:m...@mailmt.com> 
mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
<http://www.MyakkaTech.com> www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
<http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL> 
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at <http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html> 
http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html

--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. 
The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they 
have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going 
to look for other options if they have to pay every time they try to 
use a device in their household, and even if people are willing to 
pay, you still have to be able to deliver enough service to them to 
give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better 
solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, 
and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better 
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to 
this problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a 
bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change 
their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them 
financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett < 
<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basicall

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Jeremy

We have been somewhat UBB from the beginning.  We allow 300GB and then it
is 50 cents per GB thereafter.  4-5% of our customers exceed that amount
each month.  The heavy overage users inevitably move to Comcast where
available, as planned.  In areas where they are not an option our closest
competitor offers less GB per month for $30 more per month, requires a
contract, and has slow speeds at peak times.  So those customers will often
stay with us and add a satellite package or lower resolutions.  We have
very little churn over it, and it prevents abuse, and keeps our network
running fast.  We have one WISP in the area that is unlimited, and people
constantly switch to us because they have no network management, and people
abuse the system, stream 4K while sleeping, and nobody can get their
speedsconstant buffering.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> massive MIMO and. wait for it. metered billing or datacaps
> (unlimited LOLZ)
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:
>
>> I think the metered ship has sailed. People are going to have to figure
>> out how to get big pipes into and throughout their networks.
>>
>> Our PtMP vendors are going to have to step it up as well. The cellular
>> guys are moving to massive MIMO on everything. We'll have to do that too.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>> --
>> *From: *"Mark - Myakka Technologies" <m...@mailmt.com>
>> *To: *"Simon Westlake" <af@afmug.com>
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:06:53 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> Simon,
>>
>> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the
>> baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put
>> it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an
>> apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68
>> 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.
>> However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78
>> during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.
>>
>> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still
>> expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle
>> the higher bandwidth internally.
>>
>> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who
>> is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the
>> same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who
>> just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same
>> amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid
>> willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who
>> doesn't want to get up off the couch to change a disc?
>>
>> Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top
>> notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric
>> company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per
>> person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges
>> per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits on the number
>> of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user
>> to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy
>> bastards?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *-- Best regards, Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>> <m...@mailmt.com>
>>
>>
>> *Myakka Technologies, Inc. *www.MyakkaTech.com
>>
>>
>> *Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life *
>> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL
>>
>> *Please Donate at Please Donate at *http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Steve Jones

massive MIMO and. wait for it. metered billing or datacaps
(unlimited LOLZ)

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:

> I think the metered ship has sailed. People are going to have to figure
> out how to get big pipes into and throughout their networks.
>
> Our PtMP vendors are going to have to step it up as well. The cellular
> guys are moving to massive MIMO on everything. We'll have to do that too.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
> *From: *"Mark - Myakka Technologies" <m...@mailmt.com>
> *To: *"Simon Westlake" <af@afmug.com>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:06:53 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> Simon,
>
> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the
> baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put
> it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an
> apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68
> 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.
> However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78
> during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.
>
> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still
> expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle
> the higher bandwidth internally.
>
> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who is
> willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same
> as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who just
> needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount
> as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid willing to
> buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't
> want to get up off the couch to change a disc?
>
> Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch
> fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric company gets
> to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell
> phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell
> even the streaming companies get to put limits on the number of people that
> can stream per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their
> fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards?
>
>
>
>
>
> *-- Best regards, Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
> <m...@mailmt.com>
>
>
> *Myakka Technologies, Inc. *www.MyakkaTech.com
>
>
> *Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life *
> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL
>
> *Please Donate at Please Donate at *http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
>
>
>
>
> *-- Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote: *
>
> The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The
> customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV
> they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other
> options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their
> household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able
> to deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.
>
> Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better
> solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and
> prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better option,
> but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It
> may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to
> most customer's ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless
> it's extremely painful for them financially.
>
> On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> metered billing.. wave of the future
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Simon Westlake

It's a possibility, sure. If you use DPI the right way, it would be a 
net negative for the customer to do that. Anyone implementing DPI as a 
punitive measure is doing it wrong. All the customer would get out of a 
whole house VPN is a return to Windows update filling their pipe, Xbox 
downloads increasing their gaming latency, etc.. and you're off the hook 
for support at that point.


It all really depends on if your perspective is to look for a solution 
to solve the problem, or a way to punish the customer. If you want to 
punish them, then they can certainly circumvent it fairly easily, and 
maybe there will be some easy way for them to buy something to do it. 
I'd argue it's totally the wrong approach though.


On 6/21/2017 3:14 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
If there is a market for it, someone will make it easy for a small one 
time fee.


On 06/21/2017 11:14 AM, Simon Westlake wrote:

That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I
don't think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand
how to setup a whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles,
ipads, etc.

On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:

DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers
realize that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster.
Customers just need to pay for their usage as it directly affects how
much we pay to furnish services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake <simon@sonar.software
<mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to
download, or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most
people are just going to look for other options if they have to
pay every time they try to use a device in their household, and
even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much
better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game
downloads, and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish
there was a better option, but I really don't think implementing
UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more money to
build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's
ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's
extremely painful for them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett
<dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming
without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach
1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start
billing for consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't
even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com
<mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Yeah, this sucks for us. Even worse, many of these games
come out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows
10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games
and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza
potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing
customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes
heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not
sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not
been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K
content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an
option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even
after ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to
the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally purchased
games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked
consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital
license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own
multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you
can play any of your games on either console, at any time,
j

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Robert Andrews

If there is a market for it, someone will make it easy for a small one 
time fee.


On 06/21/2017 11:14 AM, Simon Westlake wrote:

That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I
don't think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand
how to setup a whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles,
ipads, etc.

On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:

DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers
realize that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster.
Customers just need to pay for their usage as it directly affects how
much we pay to furnish services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake <simon@sonar.software
<mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to
download, or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most
people are just going to look for other options if they have to
pay every time they try to use a device in their household, and
even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much
better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game
downloads, and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish
there was a better option, but I really don't think implementing
UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more money to
build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's
ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's
extremely painful for them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett
<dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming
without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach
1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start
billing for consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't
even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com
<mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games
come out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows
10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games
and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza
potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing
customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes
heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not
sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not
been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K
content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an
option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even
after ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to
the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally purchased
games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked
consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital
license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own
multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you
can play any of your games on either console, at any time,
just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to me.  The
only way to get this digital license is to download it from
the Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).
This has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get
hit with massive overages, and they usually switch to Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:

This will be the new normal with the next generation
Xbox, when many customers start bringing them home...


https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download

<https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_b

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Stefan Englhardt

We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to pay 
surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member, what 
IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai ...
You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view Euros. 
I am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers had to 
pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.


On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
 "Wireless Administrator" <wirel...@htn.net> wrote:
This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based 
billing.  Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. 
ISP’s are afraid to implement it for fear of losing 
customers.  If you lose money on an account is it really 
an asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s 
have already implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. 
They seem to have an automated process to adjust rates 
that will force off the heavy users.  Our industry will 
not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New 
term I coined) is the way ….




Steve



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark 
- Myakka Technologies

Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
To: Simon Westlake
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB 
games?




Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are 
doing.  Does the baby need to be falling asleep watching 
a 4K movie?  The best way I can put it is renting an 
apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an 
apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to 
be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all 
day, why should I care.  However, if I'm paying for 
electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the 
day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.


Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others 
it is still expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to 
upgrade your network to handle the higher bandwidth 
internally.  

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why 
should someone who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for 
satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as that guy that 
wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who 
just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force 
to pay the same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 
devices?  Why should the kid willing to buy his game on a 
disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't 
want to get up off the couch to change a disc?  

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to 
deliver a top notch fast and reliable service at a single 
low price.  The electric company gets to charge per KW, 
the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell 
phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges 
per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put 
limits on the number of people that can stream per 
account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their 
fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy 
bastards? 




--
Best regards,
Mark 
   <mailto:m...@mailmt.com> 
mailto:m...@mailmt.com


Myakka Technologies, Inc.
<http://www.MyakkaTech.com> www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
<http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL> 
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL


Please Donate at Please Donate at 
<http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html> 
http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html

--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:


The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't 
solve the problem. The customer still purchased a game 
they want to download, or they have a 4K TV they want to 
watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for 
other options if they have to pay every time they try to 
use a device in their household, and even if people are 
willing to pay, you still have to be able to deliver 
enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.


Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a 
much better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape 
things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape their 
video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I 
really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this 
problem. It may give you more money to build up your 
network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's 
extremely painful for them financially.


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:


metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett < 
<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:



I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar 
vein.


Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 
4:1 oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def 
streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will 
approach 1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Cameron Crum

One of our UBB clients does not count data between midnight and 5am. He
encourages his customers to schedule data backups, big downloads, updates
during those times (to the extent that is possible). It is probably a short
term solution given the way things are going, but it helps everyone else on
the network during peak times, and it saves the customer money for not
having those activities counted against their totals.


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:08 PM, Rory Conaway <r...@triadwireless.net>
wrote:

> You can always put a monthly cap on there and disconnect the 5% of users
> that exceed it.
>
>
>
> Rory
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Wireless
> Administrator
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:00 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
>
>
> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.  Customers
> don’t want it for obvious reasons.  ISP’s are afraid to implement it for
> fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it really an
> asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already
> implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment.  They seem to have an automated
> process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our industry
> will not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I coined)
> is the way ….
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark - Myakka Technologies
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
> *To:* Simon Westlake
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
>
>
> Simon,
>
> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the
> baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put
> it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an
> apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68
> 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.
> However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78
> during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.
>
> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still
> expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle
> the higher bandwidth internally.
>
> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who is
> willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same
> as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who just
> needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount
> as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid willing to
> buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't
> want to get up off the couch to change a disc?
>
> Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch
> fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric company gets
> to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell
> phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell
> even the streaming companies get to put limits on the number of people that
> can stream per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their
> fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards?
>
>
>
>
>
> *-- Best regards, Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
> <m...@mailmt.com>
>
>
> *Myakka Technologies, Inc. *www.MyakkaTech.com
>
>
> *Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life *
> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL
>
> *Please Donate at Please Donate at *http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
>
>
> *-- Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:*
>
> The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The
> customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV
> they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other
> options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their
> household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able
> to deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.
>
> Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better
> solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and
> prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better option,
> but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It
> may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to
> most customer's ears, and it won't change

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Mike Hammett

If you care about those sorts of things, more APs, smaller sectors, smarter 
APs\sectors can be paid for with that increased revenue. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Simon Westlake" <simon@sonar.software> 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:13:43 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 

Does it really though? My kids watch Netflix on my 4K TV, I'm not always there 
making sure they're watching HD stuff instead of 4K, so it's not something I 
think about. They download Minecraft mods on my PS4, it's not something I sit 
there thinking about. 

I'm not saying you can't do metered billing, and your argument is why shouldn't 
someone pay more. I'm not saying not to charge them more. If that is your 
business model, there is a legitimate argument to be made that they should pay 
more. 

However, the fact that games on the Xbox are now 100GB (and some cannot be 
obtained by any means other than by downloading them) is not a problem that is 
solved by metering - that's what I'm saying. If I own that console, I buy a 
game, and the download is 100GB, I have no option other than to download it and 
pay you extra. If you still don't have the capacity at the AP to support 
multiple users all downloading 100GB games at the same time, while others are 
streaming, and someone else is doing Windows updates, the fact that I am 
willing to pay extra for additional data transfer becomes completely 
irrelevant. This is why I am recommending DPI - it solves the problem. UBB 
really doesn't, if your issue is capacity, and you have no option to increase 
capacity due to spectral limitations. 


On 6/21/2017 1:06 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote: 


Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? Simon, 

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing. Does the baby 
need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie? The best way I can put it is 
renting an apartment with utilities included. If I'm renting an apartment in FL 
with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68 24/7. The cat will be 
very comfortable all day, why should I care. However, if I'm paying for 
electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to 
deal with 72 when I get home. 

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still expensive. 
Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle the higher 
bandwidth internally. 

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080 or 720 TV's. Why should someone who is 
willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as 
that guy that wants to watch in 4K. Why should a single person who just needs 
dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount as the 
family with 6 kids and 30 devices? Why should the kid willing to buy his game 
on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off 
the couch to change a disc? 

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch fast 
and reliable service at a single low price. The electric company gets to charge 
per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell phone company 
charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell even the streaming 
companies get to put limits on the number of people that can stream per 
account. Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell 
breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards? 



-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.MyakkaTech.com 

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life 
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL 

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html 
-- 

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote: 



The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. 
The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want. 

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially. 

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote: 


metered billing.. wave of the future 



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Mike Hammett

I think the metered ship has sailed. People are going to have to figure out how 
to get big pipes into and throughout their networks. 

Our PtMP vendors are going to have to step it up as well. The cellular guys are 
moving to massive MIMO on everything. We'll have to do that too. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" <m...@mailmt.com> 
To: "Simon Westlake" <af@afmug.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:06:53 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? Simon, 

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing. Does the baby 
need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie? The best way I can put it is 
renting an apartment with utilities included. If I'm renting an apartment in FL 
with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68 24/7. The cat will be 
very comfortable all day, why should I care. However, if I'm paying for 
electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to 
deal with 72 when I get home. 

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still expensive. 
Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle the higher 
bandwidth internally. 

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080 or 720 TV's. Why should someone who is 
willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as 
that guy that wants to watch in 4K. Why should a single person who just needs 
dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount as the 
family with 6 kids and 30 devices? Why should the kid willing to buy his game 
on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off 
the couch to change a disc? 

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch fast 
and reliable service at a single low price. The electric company gets to charge 
per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell phone company 
charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell even the streaming 
companies get to put limits on the number of people that can stream per 
account. Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell 
breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards? 



-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.MyakkaTech.com 

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life 
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL 

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html 
-- 

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote: 


The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. 
The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want. 

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially. 

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote: 

metered billing.. wave of the future 



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein. 

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint. 
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1. You'll have to 
either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack the 
price way up. 

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this. 



-- Original Message -- 
From: "Jeremy" < jeremysmi...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 


Yeah, this sucks for us. Even worse, many of these games come out with 
dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase. 
I bought a couple games and checked it out. It was amazing to be able to just 
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double 
the download size. This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC. When you 
are providing custome

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Rory Conaway

You can always put a monthly cap on there and disconnect the 5% of users that 
exceed it.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Wireless Administrator
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:00 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.  Customers 
don’t want it for obvious reasons.  ISP’s are afraid to implement it for fear 
of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it really an asset to 
your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already implemented Usage Based 
Rate Adjustment.  They seem to have an automated process to adjust rates that 
will force off the heavy users.  Our industry will not get respect until it 
asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I coined) is the way ….

Steve

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
To: Simon Westlake
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the baby 
need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put it is 
renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an apartment in 
FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will 
be very comfortable all day, why should I care.  However, if I'm paying for 
electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to 
deal with 72 when I get home.

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still expensive.  
Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle the higher 
bandwidth internally.

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who is 
willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as 
that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who just needs 
dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount as the 
family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid willing to buy his game 
on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off 
the couch to change a disc?

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch fast 
and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric company gets to 
charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell phone 
company charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell even the 
streaming companies get to put limits on the number of people that can stream 
per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all 
hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards?

--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com<http://www.MyakkaTech.com>

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The 
customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett 
<dmmoff...@gmail.com<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have 
to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack 
the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this.

-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com<mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB game

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Wireless Administrator

This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.  Customers 
don’t want it for obvious reasons.  ISP’s are afraid to implement it for fear 
of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it really an asset to 
your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already implemented Usage Based 
Rate Adjustment.  They seem to have an automated process to adjust rates that 
will force off the heavy users.  Our industry will not get respect until it 
asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I coined) is the way ….

 

Steve

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
To: Simon Westlake
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

 

Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the baby 
need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put it is 
renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an apartment in 
FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will 
be very comfortable all day, why should I care.  However, if I'm paying for 
electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to 
deal with 72 when I get home.

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still expensive.  
Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle the higher 
bandwidth internally.  

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who is 
willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as 
that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who just needs 
dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount as the 
family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid willing to buy his game 
on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off 
the couch to change a disc?  

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch fast 
and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric company gets to 
charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell phone 
company charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell even the 
streaming companies get to put limits on the number of people that can stream 
per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all 
hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards? 



-- 
Best regards,
Mark <mailto:m...@mailmt.com> mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
 <http://www.MyakkaTech.com> www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
 <http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL> 
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at  <http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html> 
http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:


The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The 
customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:


metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett < <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> 
dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:


I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have 
to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack 
the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" < <mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com> jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
To:  <mailto:af@afmug.com> af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual 
licenses so that you can play on Wi

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Eric Kuhnke

If you are in the right place at, or very near a major IX point where
there's a carrier POP in the same building as you, and it's as easy as them
turning up a new 1310nm/LX 10Gb port on an aggregation router, more like
$0.10/Mbps...


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com>
wrote:

> The divide between urban and rural connectivity is widening at a
> terrifying pace.
>
> 10G is lower than 0.20/Mb in many places now.
>
> - Josh
>
> On Jun 21, 2017 10:51 AM, "Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> metered billing.. wave of the future
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>>>
>>> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
>>> oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without
>>> complaint.
>>> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
>>> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
>>> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>>>
>>> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
>>> consider stuff like this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
>>> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
>>> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
>>> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
>>> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
>>> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
>>> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
>>> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
>>> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
>>> us all pretty hard.
>>>
>>> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
>>> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
>>> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
>>> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
>>> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
>>> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
>>> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
>>> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
>>> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
>>> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
>>> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
>>> they usually switch to Comcast.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
>>>> customers start bringing them home...
>>>>
>>>> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
>>>> l_be_100gb_download
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Simon Westlake

Yes, it's not a fix to an improperly built network. Microsoft updates 
trashing a customer connection is not a problem of an improperly built 
network though. Neither is a kid downloading a 100GB game while another 
family member is trying to stream Netflix or make a VoIP call. Those are 
the kinds of problems I am proposing a solution to.


On 6/21/2017 1:25 PM, Paul McCall wrote:


DPI only becomes relevant as a part of the overall solution IF you do 
everything else.


Lots of APs with higher capacities

Lots of BHs with high capacities

Cheap BW (either you can already get it or it is really hard to 
solve that problem)


It takes an all in approach OR just do what you can do now and 
regulate what you have with only incremental, logical upgrades. There 
isn’t much in between logically, IMO


*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Simon Westlake
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:21 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Well, until that happens, I think it's a pretty good option. It's 
going to be a pretty big technical hurdle for someone like DLink to 
offer a scalable VPN solution to hundreds of thousands of people, as 
well as convincing them to pay for it (and supporting it when 
something doesn't work right.)


You can get DPI today at a per-month cost with very little up front, I 
wouldn't worry too much about 'what ifs' in the future when there is a 
solution here today that doesn't require a big investment.


On 6/21/2017 1:18 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:

They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers
notice, I guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN
service that covers the whole house for a few bucks per month,
that can be activated with a single click after monthly billing is
arranged.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Simon Westlake
<simon@sonar.software <mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:

That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm
seeing today. I don't think most consumers have the technical
knowledge to understand how to setup a whole-house VPN that
will cover their TV, consoles, ipads, etc.

On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:

DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and
customers realize that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their
games download faster. Customers just need to pay for
their usage as it directly affects how much we pay to
furnish services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake
<simon@sonar.software <mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't
solve the problem. The customer still purchased a game
they want to download, or they have a 4K TV they want
to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look
for other options if they have to pay every time they
try to use a device in their household, and even if
people are willing to pay, you still have to be able
to deliver enough service to them to give them the
speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is
a much better solution.. you can deprioritize and
shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape
their video streaming. I wish there was a better
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a
solution to this problem. It may give you more money
to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to
most customer's ears, and it won't change their
behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for
them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett
<dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>>
wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a
similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll
need a 4:1 oversubscription ratio to support
peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.

As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio
will approach 1:1.  You'll have to either
start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video
trends,

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Seth Mattinen


On 6/21/17 11:18, Colin Stanners wrote:
They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers notice, I 
guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN service that covers 
the whole house for a few bucks per month, that can be activated with a 
single click after monthly billing is arranged.



And then 100% of the customer's traffic gets shaped down into a single 
category since you can't distinguish between updates or streaming or 
voip. Customer complains? Turn off the VPN before we can troubleshoot.


~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Paul McCall

DPI only becomes relevant as a part of the overall solution IF you do 
everything else.

Lots of APs with higher capacities
Lots of BHs with high capacities
Cheap BW (either you can already get it or it is really hard to solve that 
problem)

It takes an all in approach OR just do what you can do now and regulate what 
you have with only incremental, logical upgrades.   There isn’t much in between 
logically, IMO


From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Simon Westlake
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Well, until that happens, I think it's a pretty good option. It's going to be a 
pretty big technical hurdle for someone like DLink to offer a scalable VPN 
solution to hundreds of thousands of people, as well as convincing them to pay 
for it (and supporting it when something doesn't work right.)

You can get DPI today at a per-month cost with very little up front, I wouldn't 
worry too much about 'what ifs' in the future when there is a solution here 
today that doesn't require a big investment.
On 6/21/2017 1:18 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers notice, I 
guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN service that covers the 
whole house for a few bucks per month, that can be activated with a single 
click after monthly billing is arranged.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Simon Westlake 
<simon@sonar.software<mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:
That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I don't 
think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand how to setup a 
whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles, ipads, etc.
On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers realize that 
paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster. Customers just need 
to pay for their usage as it directly affects how much we pay to furnish 
services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake 
<simon@sonar.software<mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:
The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The 
customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially.
On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett 
<dmmoff...@gmail.com<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have 
to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack 
the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com<mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual 
licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I 
bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just 
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double 
the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you 
are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy 
Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a 
blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, 
but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I 
initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard 
drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally 
purchased games

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Paul McCall

Yep, guaranteed that will happen

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Colin Stanners
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:19 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers notice, I 
guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN service that covers the 
whole house for a few bucks per month, that can be activated with a single 
click after monthly billing is arranged.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Simon Westlake 
<simon@sonar.software<mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:
That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I don't 
think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand how to setup a 
whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles, ipads, etc.
On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers realize that 
paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster. Customers just need 
to pay for their usage as it directly affects how much we pay to furnish 
services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake 
<simon@sonar.software<mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:
The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The 
customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially.
On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
metered billing.. wave of the future

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett 
<dmmoff...@gmail.com<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have 
to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack 
the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this.

-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com<mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual 
licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I 
bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just 
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double 
the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you 
are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy 
Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a 
blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, 
but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I 
initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard 
drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally 
purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked 
consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have 
purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and 
at work), you can play any of your games on either console, at any time, just 
not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to me.  The only way to get this 
digital license is to download it from the Internet (or hack the console...not 
yet an option).  This has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get 
hit with massive overages, and they usually switch to Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com<mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many customers 
start bringing them home...

https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download

--

Simon Westlake

Email:

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Simon Westlake

Well, until that happens, I think it's a pretty good option. It's going 
to be a pretty big technical hurdle for someone like DLink to offer a 
scalable VPN solution to hundreds of thousands of people, as well as 
convincing them to pay for it (and supporting it when something doesn't 
work right.)


You can get DPI today at a per-month cost with very little up front, I 
wouldn't worry too much about 'what ifs' in the future when there is a 
solution here today that doesn't require a big investment.


On 6/21/2017 1:18 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers notice, I 
guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN service that 
covers the whole house for a few bucks per month, that can be 
activated with a single click after monthly billing is arranged.


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Simon Westlake <simon@sonar.software 
<mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:


That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing
today. I don't think most consumers have the technical knowledge
to understand how to setup a whole-house VPN that will cover their
TV, consoles, ipads, etc.

On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:

DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers
realize that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download
faster. Customers just need to pay for their usage as it directly
affects how much we pay to furnish services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake
<simon@sonar.software <mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to
download, or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on.
Most people are just going to look for other options if they
have to pay every time they try to use a device in their
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still
have to be able to deliver enough service to them to give
them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much
better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like
game downloads, and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I
wish there was a better option, but I really don't think
implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give
you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is
poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change their
behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them
financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett
<dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a
4:1 oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def
streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will
approach 1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying
100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack the
price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and
didn't even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com
<mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB
games?


Yeah, this sucks for us. Even worse, many of these
games come out with dual licenses so that you can play
on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a
couple games and checked it out. It was amazing to be
able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left
off on my laptop, but it was double the download size. 
This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC. When

you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly
switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a blessing
or a curse. For now, it has not been a gigantic churn
issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely
hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is
not an option.  I initially bought discs, only to find
that even after ripping them to the hard drive, I have
to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
Digitally purc

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Colin Stanners

They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers notice, I
guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN service that covers
the whole house for a few bucks per month, that can be activated with a
single click after monthly billing is arranged.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Simon Westlake <simon@sonar.software>
wrote:

> That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I
> don't think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand how
> to setup a whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles, ipads, etc.
>
> On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
>
> DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers realize
> that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster. Customers
> just need to pay for their usage as it directly affects how much we pay to
> furnish services to them.
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake <simon@sonar.software>
> wrote:
>
>> The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem.
>> The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a
>> 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for
>> other options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in
>> their household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to
>> be able to deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.
>>
>> Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better
>> solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and
>> prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better option,
>> but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It
>> may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to
>> most customer's ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless
>> it's extremely painful for them financially.
>>
>> On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
>>
>> metered billing.. wave of the future
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>>>
>>> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
>>> oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without
>>> complaint.
>>> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
>>> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
>>> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>>>
>>> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
>>> consider stuff like this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
>>> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
>>> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
>>> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
>>> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
>>> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
>>> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
>>> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
>>> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
>>> us all pretty hard.
>>>
>>> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
>>> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
>>> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
>>> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
>>> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
>>> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
>>> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
>>> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
>>> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
>>> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
>>> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with ma

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Simon Westlake


Another way to look at my perspective on this:

If your network is being tramped by Windows updates today, does 
implementing UBB have any measurable impact on that problem? Conversely, 
does implementing DPI have any impact on that problem?


On 6/21/2017 1:13 PM, Simon Westlake wrote:
Does it really though? My kids watch Netflix on my 4K TV, I'm not 
always there making sure they're watching HD stuff instead of 4K, so 
it's not something I think about. They download Minecraft mods on my 
PS4, it's not something I sit there thinking about.


I'm not saying you can't do metered billing, and your argument is why 
shouldn't someone pay more. I'm not saying not to charge them more. If 
that is your business model, there is a legitimate argument to be made 
that they should pay more.


However, the fact that games on the Xbox are now 100GB (and some 
cannot be obtained by any means other than by downloading them) is not 
a problem that is solved by metering - that's what I'm saying. If I 
own that console, I buy a game, and the download is 100GB, I have no 
option other than to download it and pay you extra. If you still don't 
have the capacity at the AP to support multiple users all downloading 
100GB games at the same time, while others are streaming, and someone 
else is doing Windows updates, the fact that I am willing to pay extra 
for additional data transfer becomes completely irrelevant. This is 
why I am recommending DPI - it solves the problem. UBB really doesn't, 
if your issue is capacity, and you have no option to increase capacity 
due to spectral limitations.


On 6/21/2017 1:06 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does 
the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way 
I can put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm 
renting an apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to 
be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why 
should I care.  However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will 
have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to deal with 72 
when I get home.


Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still 
expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to 
handle the higher bandwidth internally.


4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone 
who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to 
pay the same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a 
single person who just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be 
force to pay the same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 
devices?  Why should the kid willing to buy his game on a disc be 
forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off the 
couch to change a disc?


Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top 
notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric 
company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per 
person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite 
charges per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits 
on the number of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when 
we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and 
we are the greedy bastards?




/--
Best regards,
Mark /mailto:m...@mailmt.com

/Myakka Technologies, Inc.
/www.MyakkaTech.com <http://www.MyakkaTech.com>

/Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
/http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

/Please Donate at Please Donate at /http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
/--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:

/

	The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the 
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to download, 
or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are 
just going to look for other options if they have to pay every time 
they try to use a device in their household, and even if people are 
willing to pay, you still have to be able to deliver enough service 
to them to give them the speeds they want.


Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better 
solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, 
and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better 
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to 
this problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a 
bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change 
their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them 
financially.


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com 
<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I read some scary stuff the other day al

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Simon Westlake

That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I 
don't think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand 
how to setup a whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles, 
ipads, etc.


On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers 
realize that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster. 
Customers just need to pay for their usage as it directly affects how 
much we pay to furnish services to them.


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake <simon@sonar.software 
<mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:


The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to
download, or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most
people are just going to look for other options if they have to
pay every time they try to use a device in their household, and
even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much
better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game
downloads, and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish
there was a better option, but I really don't think implementing
UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more money to
build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's
ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's
extremely painful for them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett
<dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming
without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach
1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start
billing for consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't
even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com
<mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games
come out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows
10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games
and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza
potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing
customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes
heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not
sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not
been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K
content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an
option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even
after ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to
the network closet to insert the disc. Digitally purchased
games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked
consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital
license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own
multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you
can play any of your games on either console, at any time,
just not simultaneously. Discs are now useless to me.  The
only way to get this digital license is to download it from
the Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option). This
has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit
with massive overages, and they usually switch to Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:

This will be the new normal with the next generation
Xbox, when many customers start bringing them home...


https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download

<https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download>







-- 
Simon Westlake

Email:simon@sonar.software <mailto:simon@sonar.software>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Simon Westlake

Does it really though? My kids watch Netflix on my 4K TV, I'm not always 
there making sure they're watching HD stuff instead of 4K, so it's not 
something I think about. They download Minecraft mods on my PS4, it's 
not something I sit there thinking about.


I'm not saying you can't do metered billing, and your argument is why 
shouldn't someone pay more. I'm not saying not to charge them more. If 
that is your business model, there is a legitimate argument to be made 
that they should pay more.


However, the fact that games on the Xbox are now 100GB (and some cannot 
be obtained by any means other than by downloading them) is not a 
problem that is solved by metering - that's what I'm saying. If I own 
that console, I buy a game, and the download is 100GB, I have no option 
other than to download it and pay you extra. If you still don't have the 
capacity at the AP to support multiple users all downloading 100GB games 
at the same time, while others are streaming, and someone else is doing 
Windows updates, the fact that I am willing to pay extra for additional 
data transfer becomes completely irrelevant. This is why I am 
recommending DPI - it solves the problem. UBB really doesn't, if your 
issue is capacity, and you have no option to increase capacity due to 
spectral limitations.


On 6/21/2017 1:06 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does 
the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way 
I can put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm 
renting an apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to 
be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why 
should I care.  However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have 
to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I 
get home.


Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still 
expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to 
handle the higher bandwidth internally.


4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone 
who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to 
pay the same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a 
single person who just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be 
force to pay the same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices? 
 Why should the kid willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay 
the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off the couch to change 
a disc?


Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top 
notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric 
company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per 
person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite 
charges per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits 
on the number of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when 
we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and 
we are the greedy bastards?




/--
Best regards,
Mark /mailto:m...@mailmt.com

/Myakka Technologies, Inc.
/www.MyakkaTech.com <http://www.MyakkaTech.com>

/Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
/http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

/Please Donate at Please Donate at /http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
/--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:

/

	The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the 
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or 
they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just 
going to look for other options if they have to pay every time they 
try to use a device in their household, and even if people are willing 
to pay, you still have to be able to deliver enough service to them to 
give them the speeds they want.


Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better 
solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, 
and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better 
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to 
this problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a 
bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change 
their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them 
financially.


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com 
<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without 
complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1. 
 You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billin

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Mark - Myakka Technologies

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.  However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle the higher bandwidth internally.  

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off the couch to change a disc?  

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits on the number of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards? 



-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:






The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:




metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:




I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?





Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard. 

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (s

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Colin Stanners

DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers realize
that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster. Customers
just need to pay for their usage as it directly affects how much we pay to
furnish services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake <simon@sonar.software>
wrote:

> The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The
> customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV
> they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other
> options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their
> household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able
> to deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.
>
> Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better
> solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and
> prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better option,
> but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It
> may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to
> most customer's ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless
> it's extremely painful for them financially.
>
> On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> metered billing.. wave of the future
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>>
>> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
>> oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without
>> complaint.
>> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
>> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
>> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>>
>> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
>> consider stuff like this.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
>> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
>> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
>> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
>> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
>> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
>> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
>> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
>> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
>> us all pretty hard.
>>
>> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
>> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
>> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
>> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
>> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
>> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
>> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
>> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
>> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
>> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
>> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
>> they usually switch to Comcast.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
>>> customers start bringing them home...
>>>
>>> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
>>> l_be_100gb_download
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Simon Westlake
> Email: simon@sonar.software
> Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA
> ---
> Sonar Software Inc
> The future of ISP billing and OSShttps://sonar.software
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Steve Jones

"charge more to compensate for their consumption."
yeah
metered billing lol

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Josh Luthman <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>
wrote:

> People have been saying that for years.  Cellco tried to do it and look
> how that backfired, Verizon lost a ton of customers.
>
> Really just call it unlimited, limit it at a certain point (make sure
> legal covers your ass on this one), and then in the minimal situation where
> the customer complains you get rid of them or charge more to compensate for
> their consumption.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies <
> m...@mailmt.com> wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>
>> *-- Best regards, Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>> <m...@mailmt.com>
>>
>>
>> *Myakka Technologies, Inc. *www.MyakkaTech.com
>>
>>
>> *Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life *
>> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL
>>
>> *Please Donate at Please Donate at *http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *-- Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 11:51:26 AM, you wrote: *
>>
>> metered billing.. wave of the future
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>>
>> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
>> oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without
>> complaint.
>> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
>> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
>> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>>
>> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
>> consider stuff like this.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>>
>> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
>> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
>> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
>> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
>> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
>> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
>> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
>> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
>> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
>> us all pretty hard.
>>
>> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
>> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
>> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
>> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
>> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
>> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
>> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
>> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
>> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
>> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
>> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
>> they usually switch to Comcast.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
>> customers start bringing them home...
>>
>> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
>> l_be_100gb_download
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Mike Hammett

The CDNs I've talked to want to fix it (at least where they're over-stuffing 
the connection), just don't know what to fix due to a lack of packet captures. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Adam Moffett" <dmmoff...@gmail.com> 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:17:45 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 


I'd love to see all the software updates from Apple, Microsoft, etc throttled 
back heavily. 
The end user will not know the difference if their software update takes 10 
minutes or 10 days. They don't even know when updates are happening anyway, 
they just call about their crummy speed test results and I have to be like, 
"yeah you're using all your bandwidth downloading something from Microsoft" 






-- Original Message -- 
From: "Simon Westlake" < simon@sonar.software > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:11:27 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 




The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The 
customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want. 

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially. 


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote: 




metered billing.. wave of the future 






On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 




I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein. 


Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint. 
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1. You'll have to 
either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack the 
price way up. 


They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this. 






-- Original Message -- 
From: "Jeremy" < jeremysmi...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 





Yeah, this sucks for us. Even worse, many of these games come out with dual 
licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase. I 
bought a couple games and checked it out. It was amazing to be able to just 
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double 
the download size. This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC. When you 
are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy 
Xbox customers very quickly switch providers. I'm not sure if that is a 
blessing or a curse. For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, 
but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard. 


My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option. I initially 
bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard drive, I 
have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc. Digitally purchased 
games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked consoles. There is 
no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have purchased a disc. Also, 
if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you can play 
any of your games on either console, at any time, just not simultaneously. 
Discs are now useless to me. The only way to get this digital license is to 
download it from the Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option). This 
has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive 
overages, and they usually switch to Comcast. 


On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > wrote: 



This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many customers 
start bringing them home... 


https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download 















-- 
Simon Westlake
Email: simon@sonar.software Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA
---
Sonar Software Inc
The future of ISP billing and OSS https://sonar.software

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Adam Moffett

I'd love to see all the software updates from Apple, Microsoft, etc 
throttled back heavily.
The end user will not know the difference if their software update takes 
10 minutes or 10 days.  They don't even know when updates are happening 
anyway, they just call about their crummy speed test results and I have 
to be like, "yeah you're using all your bandwidth downloading something 
from Microsoft"




-- Original Message --
From: "Simon Westlake" <simon@sonar.software>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. 
The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have 
a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to 
look for other options if they have to pay every time they try to use a 
device in their household, and even if people are willing to pay, you 
still have to be able to deliver enough service to them to give them 
the speeds they want.


Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better 
solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, 
and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better 
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this 
problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but 
it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change their 
behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them financially.


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without 
complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  
You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for 
consumptionor jack the price way up.


They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even 
consider stuff like this.




-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out 
with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the 
same purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was 
amazing to be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left 
off on my laptop, but it was double the download size.  This makes 
Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing 
customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy Xbox 
customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a 
blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn 
issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all 
pretty hard.


My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  
I initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them 
to the hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to 
insert the disc.  Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from 
a menu, like all of the hacked consoles.  There is no option to 
'upgrade' to a digital license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, 
if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you 
can play any of your games on either console, at any time, just not 
simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to me.  The only way to get 
this digital license is to download it from the Internet (or hack 
the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big bummer to 
heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and they 
usually switch to Comcast.


On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:
This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when 
many customers start bringing them home...


https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download 
<https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download>









-- Simon Westlake Email: simon@sonar.software Phone: (702) 447-1247 US 
/ (780) 900-1180 CA --- Sonar Software Inc The 
future of ISP billing and OSS https://sonar.software

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Josh Luthman

People have been saying that for years.  Cellco tried to do it and look how
that backfired, Verizon lost a ton of customers.

Really just call it unlimited, limit it at a certain point (make sure legal
covers your ass on this one), and then in the minimal situation where the
customer complains you get rid of them or charge more to compensate for
their consumption.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies <
m...@mailmt.com> wrote:

> Steve,
>
> +1
>
>
>
> *-- Best regards, Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
> <m...@mailmt.com>
>
>
> *Myakka Technologies, Inc. *www.MyakkaTech.com
>
>
> *Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life *
> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL
>
> *Please Donate at Please Donate at *http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
>
>
>
>
> *-- Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 11:51:26 AM, you wrote: *
>
> metered billing.. wave of the future
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>
> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription
> ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>
> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider
> stuff like this.
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
>
> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
> us all pretty hard.
>
> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
> they usually switch to Comcast.
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
> customers start bringing them home...
>
> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_
> will_be_100gb_download
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Simon Westlake

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. 
The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have 
a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look 
for other options if they have to pay every time they try to use a 
device in their household, and even if people are willing to pay, you 
still have to be able to deliver enough service to them to give them the 
speeds they want.


Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better 
solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, 
and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better 
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this 
problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but 
it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change their behavior 
that much unless it's extremely painful for them financially.


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com 
<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming
without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1. 
You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for

consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com
<mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come
out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1
for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it
out.  It was amazing to be able to just continue my Halo Wars
right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double the
download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC. 
When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without

overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch
providers.  I'm not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For
now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the
future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an
option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even after
ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to the
network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally purchased games can
just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked consoles. 
There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have

purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
(say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on
either console, at any time, just not simultaneously. Discs are
now useless to me.  The only way to get this digital license is
to download it from the Internet (or hack the console...not yet
an option).  This has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when
they get hit with massive overages, and they usually switch to
Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:

This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox,
when many customers start bringing them home...


https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download

<https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download>







--
Simon Westlake
Email: simon@sonar.software
Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA
---
Sonar Software Inc
The future of ISP billing and OSS
https://sonar.software

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Josh Reynolds

The divide between urban and rural connectivity is widening at a terrifying
pace.

10G is lower than 0.20/Mb in many places now.

- Josh

On Jun 21, 2017 10:51 AM, "Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

> metered billing.. wave of the future
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>>
>> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
>> oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without
>> complaint.
>> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
>> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
>> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>>
>> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
>> consider stuff like this.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
>> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
>> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
>> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
>> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
>> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
>> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
>> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
>> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
>> us all pretty hard.
>>
>> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
>> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
>> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
>> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
>> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
>> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
>> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
>> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
>> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
>> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
>> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
>> they usually switch to Comcast.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
>>> customers start bringing them home...
>>>
>>> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
>>> l_be_100gb_download
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Rory Conaway

At the same time, our bandwidth costs have dropped, our radios speeds are 
increasing like crazy, and radios costs and cost per Mbps have either dropped.  
I’ve seen prices at low as $.28 per Mbps on 10Gbps circuits and even with local 
loop transport, I’m paying under $1 per Mbps in most places now.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:46 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have 
to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack 
the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this.

-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com<mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual 
licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I 
bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just 
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double 
the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you 
are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy 
Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a 
blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, 
but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I 
initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard 
drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally 
purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked 
consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have 
purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and 
at work), you can play any of your games on either console, at any time, just 
not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to me.  The only way to get this 
digital license is to download it from the Internet (or hack the console...not 
yet an option).  This has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get 
hit with massive overages, and they usually switch to Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
<eric.kuh...@gmail.com<mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many customers 
start bringing them home...

https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Mark - Myakka Technologies

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Steve,

+1

-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 11:51:26 AM, you wrote:






metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:




I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?





Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and they usually switch to Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com> wrote:




This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many customers start bringing them home...

https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Steve Jones

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>
> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription
> ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>
> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider
> stuff like this.
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
> us all pretty hard.
>
> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
> they usually switch to Comcast.
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
>> customers start bringing them home...
>>
>> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
>> l_be_100gb_download
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-21 Thread Kurt Fankhauser

this is why you need to build you networks to handle 50mbps and 100mbps
plans to customers and then charge thme for this "special gamer package" a
nice hefty price. If they have no other options they WILL pay for it...
They crave it...

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:03 AM, Jeremy  wrote:

> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
> us all pretty hard.
>
> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
> they usually switch to Comcast.
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
>
>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
>> customers start bringing them home...
>>
>> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
>> l_be_100gb_download
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-20 Thread Jeremy

Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
(say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
they usually switch to Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
> customers start bringing them home...
>
> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_
> will_be_100gb_download
>
>
>

[AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

2017-06-20 Thread Eric Kuhnke

This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
customers start bringing them home...

https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download

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