Heinlein [was: Good Reading, Anyone?]
Doug Pensinger wrote: I'm sure a lot of you have read the Heinlein, but this was my first attempt since I threw The Cat who Walks through Walls across the room, unfinished, many years ago. Cat is the worst possible First Heinlein to read. It makes too many references to other books, it should be Heinlein's _last_. [The Moon is a Harsh Mistress] The story was decent; somewhat dated but still interesting. I love that story! I'm not a big fan of Heinlein's politics; the idea that any kind of anarchical system would be workable inspires incredulity, Since you didn't read Cat, you didn't see how the Anarchy evolved in the Moon: it didn't. Even in Moon, Manuel says so. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Heinlein [was: Good Reading, Anyone?]
Alberto wrote: Cat is the worst possible First Heinlein to read. It makes too many references to other books, it should be Heinlein's _last_. Cat wasn't my first Heinlein, I'd read a few others including Stranger in a Strange Land which I enjoyed. [The Moon is a Harsh Mistress] The story was decent; somewhat dated but still interesting. I love that story! I'm not a big fan of Heinlein's politics; the idea that any kind of anarchical system would be workable inspires incredulity, Since you didn't read Cat, you didn't see how the Anarchy evolved in the Moon: it didn't. Even in Moon, Manuel says so. It didn't in the end, but you get the feeling that the author thinks that its a good idea. Certainly, the system prior to the revolution with its chuck 'em out the door if you don't like 'em justice is to a large degree anarchical, and Manny seems to take a great deal of pride in that element of the system. How is The Number of the Beast? I read an excerpt from the book way back before it was published (in Omni) and was hot to read the book after that but for one reason or the other never picked it up. Doug ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Heinlein
Doug Pensinger wrote: Cat is the worst possible First Heinlein to read. It makes too many references to other books, it should be Heinlein's _last_. Cat wasn't my first Heinlein, I'd read a few others including Stranger in a Strange Land which I enjoyed. Ok, but Cat makes so much references to other books (including Moon, the Future History and specially Number) that reading it without the other books is a huge spoiler. [The Moon is a Harsh Mistress] Since you didn't read Cat, you didn't see how the Anarchy evolved in the Moon: it didn't. Even in Moon, Manuel says so. It didn't in the end, but you get the feeling that the author thinks that its a good idea. No... We get the feeling that _Manuel_ thinks it's a good idea. Somehow the book passes the idea that Anarchy is not practical due to human nature. Certainly, the system prior to the revolution with its chuck 'em out the door if you don't like 'em justice is to a large degree anarchical, and Manny seems to take a great deal of pride in that element of the system. Yes, but Manny is a kind of Moon-elite :-) How is The Number of the Beast? I read an excerpt from the book way back before it was published (in Omni) and was hot to read the book after that but for one reason or the other never picked it up. If you didn't like Cat you probably won't like Number. OTOH, it makes reference to many classical sf (and fantasy) stories, so maybe if you like those other stories you will like it. And Gregory Benford makes a cameo appearance at the end of it. I think the sf community should force him to write an account of his (or, rather, he-made-character's) experiences in that book. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Heinlein
Alberto Monteiro wrote: How is The Number of the Beast? I read an excerpt from the book way back before it was published (in Omni) and was hot to read the book after that but for one reason or the other never picked it up. If you didn't like Cat you probably won't like Number. OTOH, it makes reference to many classical sf (and fantasy) stories, so maybe if you like those other stories you will like it. Tons and tons of SF and Fantasy references and tropes. I think that I probably only caught a small percentage of them when I read that. I certainly would steer you away from Number until you've read more of Heinlein's other stuff: All four of Heinlein's last books (Time Enough for Love, The Number of the Beast, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, and To Sail Beyond the Sunset) act as something of a single capstone work culminating together something of a final epilogue (or rather, epilogues) for Heinlein's massive Future History, which he basically admits in Cat ends up as very much a somewhat quaint Future History of the Past by the time he's done, and embarking on a meta-journey that is both respectful to his (and other SF/Fantasy) earlier writings and yet a playful jab at them as well. If you don't like (heavy) meta-fiction or the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics you definitely should avoid the last three. I found them sometimes silly fun. As for Heinlein's politics, he certainly leaned somewhat to the libertarian side, but I think he was more complex than that (for instance, the mixture of the socialist influences that he had) and I certainly feel that a strength of his was in playing with political extremes in his works and hiding his own actual political beliefs below trying to make his character's beliefs realistically their own. At best, his works make you think and question your place in society. So certainly the political ideals in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress are flawed, but it is hard not to admire their spirit. -- --Max Battcher-- http://worldmaker.net ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
Jim Sharkey wrote: I got Time Enough for Love also. What's it about? I'm afraid my Heinlein exposure has been minimal. And you call yourself a Science Fiction reader ;-) Time Enough for Love follows the exploits of 2000-year old Lazarus Long, first introduced in Methusela's Children. The book opens with Lazarus wanting to die, an not really being allowed to by his descendant's. They are violating the rights of a family of long-lived people. The reason being is they want his wisdom. Seems the human race is going to hell in a handbasket (again) and they think what he's learned over his life time will help those who intend to escape the downfall (which doesn't necessarily happen). Lazarus and one of his descendants, Ira, reach and agreement. Lazarus will tell his story while Ira looks for something new for Lazarus to do; seems he thinks he's about done it all in his 2000 years. The book then flips back and forth between Lazarus telling stories and the present day (in the book). Eventually they find something new and the latter third of the book or so is him actually doing it as well as setting up a new planet. I'm a big Heinlein fan and this book is probably my favorite novel. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
G. D. Akin wrote: Jim Sharkey wrote: I got Time Enough for Love also. What's it about? I'm afraid my Heinlein exposure has been minimal. And you call yourself a Science Fiction reader ;-) I used to, but compared to many of the folks on this list, I'm clearly a piker and need to catch up. :) In truth, I've been more of a Fantasy fan than an SF fan. But thanks to the good people here, though, I am making up for lost time. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
From: G. D. Akin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In? Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:49:29 +0900 Jim Sharkey wrote: I got Time Enough for Love also. What's it about? I'm afraid my Heinlein exposure has been minimal. And you call yourself a Science Fiction reader ;-) Ha! The list of authors *I* haven't read is at least as long as my arm. :) Time Enough for Love follows the exploits of 2000-year old Lazarus Long, first introduced in Methusela's Children. The book opens with Lazarus wanting to die, an not really being allowed to by his descendant's. They are violating the rights of a family of long-lived people. The reason being is they want his wisdom. Seems the human race is going to hell in a handbasket (again) and they think what he's learned over his life time will help those who intend to escape the downfall (which doesn't necessarily happen). Lazarus and one of his descendants, Ira, reach and agreement. Lazarus will tell his story while Ira looks for something new for Lazarus to do; seems he thinks he's about done it all in his 2000 years. The book then flips back and forth between Lazarus telling stories and the present day (in the book). Eventually they find something new and the latter third of the book or so is him actually doing it as well as setting up a new planet. All accurate, except I think Lazarus was 4000+ years old. Well, I'm pretty sure he was , anyway. My wife reorganized the shelves while I was in Baltimore recently and now I can't find anything. On the up side, precariously-stacked paperbacks aren't falling off the shelves anymore. :) Now that I think about it, this book may have began as a series of short stories. Heinlein ties them together seamlessly into a very captivating narrative... although there's an ongoing 'taboo' theme that culminates in a *very* odd ending. I'm a big Heinlein fan and this book is probably my favorite novel. I am too. Tied for me with Starship Troopers, and The Man Who Sold The Moon. I'm a big fan of authors who create universes and then continuity in unexpected places. Asimov and Heinlein were very good at it. Frex, there's a short story in TMWSTM about a Doctor Pinero, who has discovered a foolproof way to predict when someone who is going to die. Lazarus mentions an amusing visit to Pinero in Methuselah's Children. Jon Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com _ Use custom emotions -- try MSN Messenger 6.0! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_emoticon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
Jon Gabriel wrote: All accurate, except I think Lazarus was 4000+ years old. 2359. He was born on 1912-11-11, and the story begins somewhere in 4272. But he wasn't 2359 _years_ old, because he cut some of these years [about 70 of them] during _Methuselah's Children_. Timeline Maniac Maru Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
G. D. Akin wrote: Time Enough for Love Did I mention that I made a timeline of Heinlein? http://www.geocities.com/albmont/rah2.htm follows the exploits of 2000-year old Lazarus Long, first introduced in Methusela's Children. The book opens with Lazarus wanting to die, an not really being allowed to by his descendant's. They are violating the rights of a family of long-lived people. The reason being is they want his wisdom. Seems the human race is going to hell in a handbasket (again) and they think what he's learned over his life time will help those who intend to escape the downfall (which doesn't necessarily happen). No, there's no evidence of this crisis for the human race. It seems like _Secundus_ is in crisis, but it's a subtle crisis: they seem to be too much satisfied with what they already got. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
At 05:58 PM 9/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: Another one of those quizzes for everyone's categorization pleasure: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In? http://quizilla.com/users/dunkelza/quizzes/Which%20Heinlein%20Book%20Should%20You%20Have%20Been%20A%20Character%20In%3F/ or http://makeashorterlink.com/?L100121A4 I got: You belong in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. You value freedom above all else. You would fight and die for your family and your home. I think The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress is one of the few Heinlein books I haven't read, unfortunately. You belong in I Will Fear No Evil. Your body is your prison, and you would trade everything you have, even your sex, for a new lease on life. I don't remember reading this, but I have read most of his books. Must have been the I'm so tired answer. Kevin T. - VRWC Who is very, very tired right now ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
Another one of those quizzes for everyone's categorization pleasure: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In? http://quizilla.com/users/dunkelza/quizzes/Which%20Heinlein%20Book%20Should%20You%20Have%20Been%20A%20Character%20In%3F/ or http://makeashorterlink.com/?L100121A4 I got: You belong in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. You value freedom above all else. You would fight and die for your family and your home. I think The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress is one of the few Heinlein books I haven't read, unfortunately. _ Express yourself with MSN Messenger 6.0 -- download now! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_general ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
--- Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another one of those quizzes for everyone's categorization pleasure: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In? http://quizilla.com/users/dunkelza/quizzes/Which%20Heinlein%20Book%20Should%20You%20Have%20Been%20A%20Character%20In%3F/ or http://makeashorterlink.com/?L100121A4 Well after the first pass: You belong in Time Enough For Love. You are older than you look. Your wit and wisdom are prized by others. People throw themselves on you, begging to be with you. But then after I went back and put in my second choices: You belong in Starship Troopers. Your idea of a good time is bouncing across an alien battlefield blasting the foes of humanity into extinction. ah, Heinlein = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
From: Jan Coffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In? Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:37:30 -0700 (PDT) --- Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another one of those quizzes for everyone's categorization pleasure: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In? http://quizilla.com/users/dunkelza/quizzes/Which%20Heinlein%20Book%20Should%20You%20Have%20Been%20A%20Character%20In%3F/ or http://makeashorterlink.com/?L100121A4 Well after the first pass: You belong in Time Enough For Love. You are older than you look. Your wit and wisdom are prized by others. People throw themselves on you, begging to be with you. But then after I went back and put in my second choices: You belong in Starship Troopers. Your idea of a good time is bouncing across an alien battlefield blasting the foes of humanity into extinction. ah, Heinlein Indeed. :) First: You belong in Time Enough For Love. You are older than you look. Your wit and wisdom are prized by others. People throw themselves on you, begging to be with you. Second: Same thing. Guess I'm gonna live until I'm 4000. :-) Jon GSV Or Own A Ship Named Dora. :-) Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com _ Try MSN Messenger 6.0 with integrated webcam functionality! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_webcam ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
Bryon wrote: Another one of those quizzes for everyone's categorization pleasure: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In? http://quizilla.com/users/dunkelza/quizzes/Which%20Heinlein%20Book%20Should%20You%20Have%20Been%20A%20Character%20In%3F/ or http://makeashorterlink.com/?L100121A4 I got _Time Enough For Love_ the first time through. With my second choices, I got: You belong in The Man Who Sold The Moon. You are a dreamer. People don't understand you your calling, and often get in your way. Frontiers call to you, and you will breathe your last breath as you gaze back from a distant horizon. Reggie Bautista _ Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! https://broadband.msn.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
Bryon Daly wrote: Another one of those quizzes for everyone's categorization pleasure: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In? Time Enough for Love. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
You belong in the Cat Who Walks Through Walls. You are creative and cunning. Your works often feel empty to you, though others love them. You suspect that the universe and everyone in it are just characters in someone else's story. xponent The Sequal Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
First pass:The Man Who Sold The Moon Second:Cat Who Walks Through Walls (I just picked the first answer in every category) Of all the little personality quizzes we've taken, this is lamest. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
I got Time Enough for Love also. What's it about? I'm afraid my Heinlein exposure has been minimal. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
--- Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another one of those quizzes for everyone's categorization pleasure: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In? http://quizilla.com/users/dunkelza/quizzes/Which%20Heinlein%20Book%20Should%20You%20Have%20Been%20A%20Character%20In%3F/ or http://makeashorterlink.com/?L100121A4 snip First set: Time Enough For Love (description deleted, but thus far seems to be popular in the List :D ) Second set: 'You belong in the Cat Who Walks Through Walls. You are creative and cunning. Your works often feel empty to you, though others love them. You suspect that the universe and everyone in it are just characters in someone else's story.' Hmmm...perhaps in-between... ^ ~ ^ Timecat Walking For Love Maru (@ @ ) == Y === __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] I got Time Enough for Love also. What's it about? I'm afraid my Heinlein exposure has been minimal. Time Enough For Love is from Heinlein's Dirty Old Man stage of his career. From what I remember, it's mostly about Lazarus Long, the world's oldest man, and his assorted exploits (LL can also be found in some of Heinlein's other books.) This book got me in hot water when my then-girlfriend borrowed it from me and was highly disturbed when she got to the part where LL went back in time and had an affair with his own mother (but no, he doesn't sire himself). _ Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Which Heinlein Book Should You Have Been A Character In?
You belong in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. You value freedom above all else. You would fight and die for your family and your home. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
New Heinlein Book soon to be published
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/newsFUTL.html For those of us who thought there would never again be another new Heinlein novel, the impossible has become reality . For Us, the Living, is a brand new, never before published novel by Robert A. Heinlein. It is going into print now for the first time and will be in bookstores by the end of November, 2003. It was announced at Torcon 2003. :-) Jon Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com _ Express yourself with MSN Messenger 6.0 -- download now! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_general ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein quote
- Original Message - From: Jan Coffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 8:16 PM Subject: Re: Heinlein quote --- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Seeberger wrote: An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. -Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond the Horizon, 1942 This statemente is totally false. Just look at any armed society - like a slum, or an area under the control of a terrorist group - and check if people are polite there. Are you saying Texas isn't polite? wfc? One example is enough to falsify Heinlein's statement. I gave two. Once again exactly! That is exactly why I disagree with him (among other issues more subtle) but you are in fact seeming to be in agreement that a lack of power balance is a bad thing. ( I never recieved Alberto's post) A slum is not a place defined by gun ownership, some will, some won't. Terrorists have weapons for the purpose of inflicting their will upon others. Alberto falsified nothing because his examples were fatally flawed. The society Heinlein proposed is one where 100% of the people (or close enough) are armed. I'm not claiming to agree with Heinlein, but I will note that people are very friendly in Texas and not so friendly in New York. G xponent Guns'N'Roses Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein quote
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 8:52 PM Subject: Re: Heinlein quote I'm not claiming to agree with Heinlein, but I will note that people are very friendly in Texas and not so friendly in New York. G You'd better never not come back to New York no more and say that. We New Yorkers don't take kindly to peoples what calls us unfriendly. ;) Seriously, it is utterly impossible to generalize about 7 million people. There are friendly New Yorkers and unfriendly Texans. I myself have never been to Texas. so I can't say a thing about it, but I'm from New York, and I have never known a truly unfriendly New Yorker (in the way TV stereotypes us/them). Bah!! The smiley should have been superfluous!G xponent Winkies Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein quote
Jan Coffey wrote: --- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And there are cultural differences between Texas and California, and the culture in Texas agreed with me a bit more when I visited both states on one trip, and that's how I ended up going to school in Texas. (But I will note that in *both* states I've had a random aging hippie come up to me and start a conversation which ended shortly after my gently refusing the offer of a joint.) What's wrong? You got some problem with Juke? Or you just don't like movable parts? I don't *smoke*. Period. I have a problem with being offered something that I'm supposed to burn in order to receive whatever pharmaceutical effects it may offer. Moveable parts are good. Parts that don't scream at you when you try to move them the way they were designed to move are even better. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein quote
--- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Seeberger wrote: I'm not claiming to agree with Heinlein, but I will note that people are very friendly in Texas and not so friendly in New York. G I think there are cultural differences between Texas and New York besides just the gun ownership thing that account for that. :) And I'm not sure how much is a difference between friendliness per se, and how much is the laid-back-ness of each place. Or some kind of difference in the expanded definition of friendly in each place. And there are cultural differences between Texas and California, and the culture in Texas agreed with me a bit more when I visited both states on one trip, and that's how I ended up going to school in Texas. (But I will note that in *both* states I've had a random aging hippie come up to me and start a conversation which ended shortly after my gently refusing the offer of a joint.) What's wrong? You got some problem with Juke? Or you just don't like movable parts? = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein quote [was: Politics]
- Original Message - From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 2:55 PM Subject: Heinlein quote [was: Politics] Jan Coffey wrote: Actually, they are Heinlein's words, and the full quote is: An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. -Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond the Horizon, 1942 I do in fact agree with Heinlein on many things. And while we have some agreement on this issue, (we would be on the same side of the arguement here). I do not exactly agree with this statement. This statemente is totally false. Just look at any armed society - like a slum, or an area under the control of a terrorist group - and check if people are polite there. Are you saying Texas isn't polite? All you are doing is revealing a deep bias with your statement. Even your examples reveal nothing but prejudice. Slum? Terrorist group? Are these the only armed groups that come to mind for you? Too much TV? xponent Equivalence With Violence Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein quote
--- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Coffey wrote: --- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And there are cultural differences between Texas and California, and the culture in Texas agreed with me a bit more when I visited both states on one trip, and that's how I ended up going to school in Texas. (But I will note that in *both* states I've had a random aging hippie come up to me and start a conversation which ended shortly after my gently refusing the offer of a joint.) What's wrong? You got some problem with Juke? Or you just don't like movable parts? I don't *smoke*. Period. I have a problem with being offered something that I'm supposed to burn in order to receive whatever pharmaceutical effects it may offer. Dito, just trying to be punny. Moveable parts are good. Parts that don't scream at you when you try to move them the way they were designed to move are even better. :) = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein quote
Robert Seeberger wrote: I'm not claiming to agree with Heinlein, but I will note that people are very friendly in Texas and not so friendly in New York. G I think there are cultural differences between Texas and New York besides just the gun ownership thing that account for that. :) And I'm not sure how much is a difference between friendliness per se, and how much is the laid-back-ness of each place. Or some kind of difference in the expanded definition of friendly in each place. And there are cultural differences between Texas and California, and the culture in Texas agreed with me a bit more when I visited both states on one trip, and that's how I ended up going to school in Texas. (But I will note that in *both* states I've had a random aging hippie come up to me and start a conversation which ended shortly after my gently refusing the offer of a joint.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein quote
I'm not claiming to agree with Heinlein, but I will note that people are very friendly in Texas and not so friendly in New York. G You'd better never not come back to New York no more and say that. We New Yorkers don't take kindly to peoples what calls us unfriendly. ;) Seriously, it is utterly impossible to generalize about 7 million people. There are friendly New Yorkers and unfriendly Texans. I myself have never been to Texas. so I can't say a thing about it, but I'm from New York, and I have never known a truly unfriendly New Yorker (in the way TV stereotypes us/them). Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein quote [was: Politics]
--- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Coffey wrote: Actually, they are Heinlein's words, and the full quote is: An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. -Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond the Horizon, 1942 I do in fact agree with Heinlein on many things. And while we have some agreement on this issue, (we would be on the same side of the arguement here). I do not exactly agree with this statement. This statemente is totally false. Just look at any armed society - like a slum, or an area under the control of a terrorist group - and check if people are polite there. Exactly. There is no balance of power there. = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein quote
--- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Seeberger wrote: An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. -Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond the Horizon, 1942 This statemente is totally false. Just look at any armed society - like a slum, or an area under the control of a terrorist group - and check if people are polite there. Are you saying Texas isn't polite? wfc? One example is enough to falsify Heinlein's statement. I gave two. Once again exactly! That is exactly why I disagree with him (among other issues more subtle) but you are in fact seeming to be in agreement that a lack of power balance is a bad thing. No one on this list (that I know of) was agreeing with Heinlein. The subject of Heinlein cam up becouse some were mistaking a different argument for Heinlein's. = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Heinlein quote [was: Politics]
Jan Coffey wrote: Actually, they are Heinlein's words, and the full quote is: An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. -Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond the Horizon, 1942 I do in fact agree with Heinlein on many things. And while we have some agreement on this issue, (we would be on the same side of the arguement here). I do not exactly agree with this statement. This statemente is totally false. Just look at any armed society - like a slum, or an area under the control of a terrorist group - and check if people are polite there. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
On 15 Mar 2003 at 22:59, Han Tacoma wrote: My opinion is that the French have the same misgivings as the American Jewish community has: | But some Jews are increasingly concerned about the lack of widespread | international support for a pre-emptive strike, and skeptical that the United | States can create a stable post-war government in Iraq. | | Rabbi Ismar Schorsch, chancellor of the Jewish Theological Seminary | of America, the academic and spiritual center of Conservative Judaism, | said at a lecture this week, We live in a Ahem. Some points - he is conservative. His views also only reprisent a proportion of the *conservative* Jewish views. (I am Masorti, which is roughly the UK equivalent of Conservative). Please don't read any major (or even minor) overall Jewish stance into his viewpoints. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
On Sunday, March 16, 2003 8:10 AM, Andrew Crystall wrote: On 15 Mar 2003 at 22:59, Han Tacoma wrote: My opinion is that the French have the same misgivings as the American Jewish community has: I retract my _generalization_ of the American Jewish Community in the context that I used it. When I quoted from the New York Times, http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/15/national/15JEWS.html?th I choose only one of the four (4) branches that Hannah Rosenthal, executive director of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs described, -- Reconstructionist; Reform; Conservative; and Orthodox, in the article to make the point: the United States had 'gravely weakened the institutions of internationalism so painstakingly erected after the Second World War'. | But some Jews are increasingly concerned about the lack of | widespread international support for a pre-emptive strike, and | skeptical that the United States can create a stable post-war | government in Iraq. | | Rabbi Ismar Schorsch, chancellor of the Jewish Theological | Seminary of America, the academic and spiritual center | of Conservative Judaism, said at a lecture this week, We live in a Ahem. Some points - he is conservative. His views also only reprisent a proportion of the *conservative* Jewish views. (I am Masorti, which is roughly the UK equivalent of Conservative). Please don't read any major (or even minor) overall Jewish stance into his viewpoints. I realize that Rabbi Schorsch's views are his. While you don't indicate what you mean by proportion (i.e. a percentage), it seems to me that you are using the word as an implication -- that it is a minority -- to justify your opinion that one should not read a stance. While holding the posistion he does, I would hardly see him offering a view that would contradict the feelings of the majority of that branch of conservatives, and therefore I accept his statement as representative of that branch. Cheers! -- Han Tacoma ~ Artificial Intelligence is better than none! ~ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
On 16 Mar 2003 at 18:10, Han Tacoma wrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2003 8:10 AM, Andrew Crystall wrote: I realize that Rabbi Schorsch's views are his. While you don't indicate what you mean by proportion (i.e. a percentage), it seems to me that you are using the word as an implication -- that it is a minority -- to justify your opinion that one should not read a stance. While holding the posistion he does, I would hardly see him offering a view that would contradict the feelings of the majority of that branch of conservatives, and therefore I accept his statement as representative of that branch. Understand that conservative Judaism is not especially internally coherent in it's views (and while I would describe myself to Americas as conservative) is is not precisely a large organisation even among American Jews. The word conservative is somewhat of a misnomer, really. We essentially believe much as the ortherdox do, but we go back to the source (the bible) for rabinical interpretations rather than re- interpret allready old rulings. And we're more interested in the spirit rather than the letter. That's not how all Conservative/Masorti would put it either. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
Erik Reuter wrote: At the risk of ruining it, can you explain the joke? I know that le is and article for the, but what is le weekend? I thought the French worked short weeks compared to Americans, so they would have at least as long a weekend as Americans. The French adopted the term le weekend from the American, and there are enough people trying to protect the language and keep it pure that they were upset by it. Many words that just get co-opted and whatever-ized in other languages are given their own French version that doesn't resemble anyone else's (but if you know enough French, they make sense on some level, at least). Le weekend is the pretty much the only bit of purely borrowed vocabulary I remember from 3 semesters of college French. (Jeep might have been a vocabulary word as well, but I don't put brand names on the same footing as generic nouns, for example.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
On Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 03:38:56PM +, Robert J. Chassell wrote: And, since the US has more power than Iraq, economically, militarily, and culturally, from the point of view of a non-US government, the US presents a more pressing danger, even if, at the moment, it is much nicer than Iraq. Hence, it makes sense to oppose the US, even in a morally justified endeaver, such as overthrowing the government of Iraq. Do you think many French reason this way? I can understand being concerned about excessive American power in general. But when specifically compared to Hussein, do the French really think the probability of the US attacking or subverting their country sometime in the future is greater than the dangers posed by Hussein? If they do assume the US is a likely future threat, then the rest of their behavior follows rationally, but that seems a paranoid assumption to make. Granted, America doesn't have the best track record at refraining from supporting dictators and fascists in third world countries, but that was often rationalized (rightly or wrongs) as being necessary to oppose a greater evil (frequently communism, which is much less likely to appear as a goad to America in the future). What likely future situation would result in America taking such a position against FRANCE? The question here is whether this French policy is even worse than the `Solution Unsatisfactory' that Heinlein envisioned? Seems that way. But then, I tend to favor creating, building, and improving, rather than just complaining. Maybe the French think that the EU can be such a solution. But the track record so far looks rather poor. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3 On Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 03:38:56PM +, Robert J. Chassell wrote: And, since the US has more power than Iraq, economically, militarily, and culturally, from the point of view of a non-US government, the US presents a more pressing danger, even if, at the moment, it is much nicer than Iraq. Hence, it makes sense to oppose the US, even in a morally justified endeaver, such as overthrowing the government of Iraq. Do you think many French reason this way? I can understand being concerned about excessive American power in general. But when specifically compared to Hussein, do the French really think the probability of the US attacking or subverting their country sometime in the future is greater than the dangers posed by Hussein? It depends on how subvert is interpreted. The US had now taken France's proper roll as the leading nation of the world. During the Cold War, France has shown its importance by being as uncooperative an ally as possible while remaining an ally...kicking US soldiers out of France but working with the US on its own terms. After the Cold War, the power and prestige of the US as the only superpower grew, and its need to coax France into cooperating lessened. So, to improve France's relative positon in the world, France needs to take the US down a peg. Gautam's comment about other people being able to critique his idea that relative position is the key to a nation's actions referes to a rather long paper (100 pages) he wrote about this subject.** (As an aside, I think that every country does not operate under this paradigm, but I'll agree France does). France sees a strong US as a threat to its natural place in the order of things. What likely future situation would result in America taking such a position against FRANCE? I think the real fear is a cultural attack, that the French will become Americanized by their exposure to such horrors as le weekend. Dan M. **If you want a copy of this thesis, please send 25 cents and a self addressed envelope to Merkle Press ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
... do the French really think the probability of the US attacking or subverting their country sometime in the future is greater than the dangers posed by Hussein? That is not the question. The question is, for example, whether a US government thinks it better that France workers bear the cost of excess steel production than US workers. Not long after he was elected, President Bush went against Republican rhetoric on freedom of trade and decided to favor certain US workers over French workers (and over some US Republicans, one of whom told me how angry he was with Bush, for pushing up steel prices). -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
On 15 Mar 2003 at 19:54, Robert J. Chassell wrote: ... do the French really think the probability of the US attacking or subverting their country sometime in the future is greater than the dangers posed by Hussein? That is not the question. The question is, for example, whether a US government thinks it better that France workers bear the cost of excess steel production than US workers. Not long after he was elected, President Bush went against Republican rhetoric on freedom of trade and decided to favor certain US workers over French workers (and over some US Republicans, one of whom told me how angry he was with Bush, for pushing up steel prices). Umm. He pushed *Europe*, and we pushed back, trade-wise. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
On Sat, Mar 15, 2003 at 12:34:34PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do you think many French reason this way? I can understand being concerned about excessive American power in general. But when specifically compared to Hussein, do the French really think the probability of the US attacking or subverting their country sometime in the future is greater than the dangers posed by Hussein? It depends on how subvert is interpreted. I meant more along the lines of covertly attack than along the lines of overshadowing or eclipsing prestige. So, to improve France's relative positon in the world, France needs to take the US down a peg. I can understand this viewpoint rationally, but I find it quite significantly more arrogant and short-sighted than Bush's behavior has been (and from me, that is saying a lot). But I thought Robert was referring more to real danger to France, military or economic, rather than just possible ego damage. Can you clear this up, Robert? I think the real fear is a cultural attack, that the French will become Americanized by their exposure to such horrors as le weekend. At the risk of ruining it, can you explain the joke? I know that le is and article for the, but what is le weekend? I thought the French worked short weeks compared to Americans, so they would have at least as long a weekend as Americans. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
On Sat, Mar 15, 2003 at 07:54:38PM +, Robert J. Chassell wrote: ... do the French really think the probability of the US attacking or subverting their country sometime in the future is greater than the dangers posed by Hussein? That is not the question. The question is, for example, whether a US government thinks it better that France workers bear the cost of excess steel production than US workers. This seems a stretch. Are you suggesting the French think their recent actions are a good way to cut down on trade barriers with America? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
Erik Reuter wrote: At the risk of ruining it, can you explain the joke? I know that le is and article for the, but what is le weekend? I thought the French worked short weeks compared to Americans, so they would have at least as long a weekend as Americans. The use of the word weekend rather than its French equivalent. Other examples: le hot dog and le fast food (not sure about the gender on these). Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
- Original Message - From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3 Erik Reuter wrote: At the risk of ruining it, can you explain the joke? I know that le is and article for the, but what is le weekend? I thought the French worked short weeks compared to Americans, so they would have at least as long a weekend as Americans. The use of the word weekend rather than its French equivalent. Other examples: le hot dog and le fast food (not sure about the gender on these). The French equivalent had to be invented. IIRC, the use of le weekend is against the law. How chauvinistic of them. :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heinlein and current international politics L3
On Friday, March 14, 2003 10:38 AM, Robert J. Chassell wrote: Robert Heinlein expressed the problem in a science fiction story in 1941, `Solution Unsatisfactory'. I will get to that in a moment. [...snip...] The question here is whether this French policy is even worse than the `Solution Unsatisfactory' that Heinlein envisioned? My opinion is that the French have the same misgivings as the American Jewish community has: | But some Jews are increasingly concerned about the lack of widespread | international support for a pre-emptive strike, and skeptical that the United | States can create a stable post-war government in Iraq. | | Rabbi Ismar Schorsch, chancellor of the Jewish Theological Seminary | of America, the academic and spiritual center of Conservative Judaism, | said at a lecture this week, We live in a world gone mad, a world in which | a paper tiger has become America's mortal enemy, a world in which America | is about to enter a war in which America stands alone. | | Rabbi Schorsch said in an interview that he believed that North Korea | was a greater threat than Iraq, that Al Qaeda's fortunes would not fall | with Iraq's, and that the United States had gravely weakened the institutions [sic]^^^ | of internationalism so painstakingly erected after the Second World War. _^^^ [excerpt from The New York Times] http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/15/national/15JEWS.html?th Divide Among Jews Leads to Silence on Iraq War By LAURIE GOODSTEIN March 15, 2003 Cheers! -- Han Tacoma ~ Artificial Intelligence is better than none! ~ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Heinlein and current international politics L3
Robert Heinlein expressed the problem in a science fiction story in 1941, `Solution Unsatisfactory'. I will get to that in a moment. First, the `Jacksonian' tradition in the US. On 13 Mar 2003, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think part of the problem is that there is one party in the whole dispute who is as black as you can get. Outside of the lunatics (ANSWER) everyone agrees that that party is as black as it is possible to be. _By contrast_ everyone else tends to look white. This makes sense if you follow the US `Wilsonian' political theme. There are other political themes in the US, such as the `Jacksonian' tradition, which looks to others as ruthless and dangerous to them. I think that some outside of the US fear that the US will follow a `Jacksonian' policy at some point or another. For example, the US has supported dictatorships in Chile, Argentina, and Brazil, in Spain and Greece, and elsewhere, including Iraq, under President Reagan. You have to be ruthless and uncaring of non-US people to follow such a policy, not a `Wilsonian' but a `Jacksonian'. Several years ago, Walter Russell Mead wrote an essay on `The Jacksonian Tradition' http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html His first two sentences were: In the last five months of World War II, American bombing raids claimed the lives of more than 900,000 Japanese civilians--not counting the casualties from the atomic strikes against Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This is more than twice the total number of combat deaths that the United States has suffered in all its foreign wars combined. His thesis was: An observer who thinks of American foreign policy only in terms of the commercial realism of the Hamiltonians, the crusading moralism of Wilsonian transcendentalists, and the supple pacifism of the principled but slippery Jeffersonians would be at a loss to account for American ruthlessness at war. Those who prefer to believe that the present global hegemony of the United States emerged through a process of immaculate conception avert their eyes from many distressing moments in the American ascension. The United States over its history has consistently summoned the will and the means to compel its enemies to yield to its demands. Perhaps the Bush administration is predominantly Wilsonian, or perhaps not. In any event, there will be other administrations and maybe one or other of them will be as `Jacksonian' as the Reagan or Nixon administrations. That being the case, a non-US government could argue that the current Iraqi government is indeed very bad: it has used chemical warfare against its own people as well as against foreigners, it has developed and weaponized plagues, and it has spent fortunes to develop nuclear weapons. Moreover, although pressed to disarm, unlike South Africa, it has not cooperated with the disarmament inspectors. However, the non-US government could go on to say, the most that Iraq can do with chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons is gain political leverage over its neighbors, and through its control of oil, temporary political leverage over France, Germany, and other West European countries that depend more heavily on Middle Eastern oil than the US -- but since oil is fungible, that leverage could not last very long since the West European countries would simply purchase more oil from Venezula, Russia, and Nigeria. Of course, an overall world shortage of oil would mean a recession in places like Western Europe, Japan, and the US, but a spokesperson for a Western European government could say that his or her nation could deal with a recession because they are more likely to favor government spending than a traditional US Republican administration. In particular, to maintain their own independence over the long term, the West European countries would simply have to increase their conservation efforts, and increase their (in large part government) spending on alternative sources of energy: wind, wave, solar, and nuclear (mostly hydrogen fusion). The reason for such a policy would be the expectation that some administrations in the US would follow `Jacksonian' rather than or in addition to `Wilsonian' policies -- that, as a practical matter, some US leaders would be no more altruistic than their European counterparts. And, since the US has more power than Iraq, economically, militarily, and culturally, from the point of view of a non-US government, the US presents a more pressing danger, even if, at the moment, it is much nicer than Iraq. Hence, it makes sense to oppose the US, even in a morally justified endeaver, such as overthrowing the government of Iraq. The US could counter-argue that technological advances over the past century have not only enabled countries such as the US to increase their lethal power, but have enabled the weak to increase their lethal power
Scouted: Heinlein Translated Into Dutch...
...with an unforeseen consequence. :-) Jon Dutchman sold pieces of the moon - - - - - - - - - - - - ASSOCIATED PRESS Jan. 28, 2003 | AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) -- For years, Rene Veenema says he made a small fortune selling real estate plots on the moon. Now he's in jail, on Earth. Veenema, 33, has been accused of fraud and forgery by prosecutors investigating complaints from clients who said they paid for, but never received, ownership certificates for their parcels of land in space, the daily Telegraaf newspaper reported Tuesday. Veenema, who goes on trial next month, was quoted as saying he made thousands of people happy before his business turned sour. He claims he sold plots for around 1,500 euros ($1,600) each through the U.S.-based firm Lunar Embassy. The American company has sold plots since 1996 to owners who include Johnny Carson, Ed McMahon, David Letterman, Ed Asner, Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. Since then, the moon has sold well in Europe -- last year the lots were a popular Valentine's Day gift in Romania -- even though few if any buyers can ever hope to set foot on their property. The paper said Veenema was jailed several weeks ago and that prosecutors are seeking damages in a suit brought by five disappointed investors. Like most things I start up, the moon project had a promising start. But when the rush failed to materialize -- I had expected tens of thousands of orders per month -- I ordered a car, a house, you name it, he was quoted as saying. In fact, I have been pulling this off for more than 10 years, Veenema told the newspaper. My employers, my colleagues, my ex-girlfriend, I conned them all. When he gets out of jail, Veenema said he intends to repay all those he swindled and learn to stop lying and cheating. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Heinlein Translated Into Dutch...
At 16:17 28-01-2003 -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote: Veenema, who goes on trial next month, was quoted as saying he made thousands of people happy before his business turned sour. He claims he sold plots for around 1,500 euros ($1,600) each through the U.S.-based firm Lunar Embassy. Assuming for a moment that those are 1,600 *US* dollars, whoever wrote that article really needs to update his/her exchange rate tables. If 1,500 Euros equals 1,600 dollars, then a dollar would be worth 1,066 Euros; that *has* happened, but the last time it *did* happen was early June 2002; it's been going downhill ever since (although it has actually been going downhill longer than that). At the current exchange rate (1 : 0.92), 1,500 Euros equals roughly 1,380 dollars -- that is 220 dollars less than the article wants us to believe. Just thought I'd mention that... Jeroen Casual Observations van Baardwijk LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
FWD: [rrff] Notice regarding Virginia Heinlein
I'm forwarding this from the Reading For the Future list: -- I started an individual letter to several addressees in this and other DYR/RFF groups, but then decided there were so many that perhaps this slightly off-topic post might be acceptable and save time here. Replies expressing grief, generally, probably should be avoided so as not to clog all our mailboxes. Mrs. Heinlein, however, actively supported the goals of this group; and was always interested in and enjoyed receiving news of its activities. The following was written by another addressee of this group, Dr. Robert James [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]. Virginia Heinlein passed away peacefully in her sleep in the early morning of January 18, 2003. She was 86 years old. Mrs. Heinlein was the widow of famed science fiction writer, Robert A. Heinlein, author of Stranger In a Strange Land and 55 other books, who died in 1988. Her death followed a prolonged bout of respiratory illness, including pneumonia, as well as a broken hip sustained on Thanksgiving Day, 2002, requiring surgery and a long recovery. The couple had no children, but countless readers around the world refer to themselves as Heinlein?s Children. Virginia Gerstenfeld Heinlein was born April 22, 1916, in Brooklyn, New York, the daughter of a dentist. She went to the Packer Collegiate Institute, a college preparatory high school, where she finished in three-and-a-half years, always on the honor roll. She attended New York University, majoring in chemistry. She lettered in swimming, diving, basketball, and field hockey. She also reached national competitive levels in figure skating, the sport that became her lifelong passion. In the late 1950's, she served on the U.S. Olympic Committee for Skating. In time, she came to speak over seven languages, including French, Latin, Italian, and Russian. Graduating in 1937, she worked for as a chemist until 1943, when the WAVE Corps was formed. She enlisted immediately and was offered a commission as a WAVE lieutenant, serving first at the Bureau of Aeronautics, then at the Naval Air Experimental Station in Philadelphia in 1944 and 1945. She met Robert Heinlein there, working as a civilian aviation engineer because the Navy would not overlook his medical discharge due to tuberculosis in 1934. She served as his assistant on several classified development projects as a chemist and aviation test engineer. After World War II, she came to Los Angeles to study for an unfinished doctorate in biochemistry at UCLA. She married Robert Heinlein in Raton, New Mexico, in October 1948. Thereafter, the two were inseparable; those who knew them spoke often of their intense and abiding love for each other. She became his closest companion, aiding him in his writing, and traveling the world with him. Virginia shepherded Robert through two severe near-death illnesses in the seventies through constant care and love. She took over the business aspects of his writing career, freeing him to focus on his writing. Together, they made a special project of organizing local and national blood drives and facilitating cooperation among all the blood collecting organizations in the world. Shortly after his death in 1988, she moved to Florida. She gathered a selection of her husband's letters in Grumbles from the Grave, printed for the first time his travel memoir Tramp Royale and political handbook Take Back Your Government (originally titled How to Be a Politician), and oversaw the restoration of several texts she felt had been badly edited, including Red Planet, Puppet Masters, and Stranger in a Strange Land. Throughout her life, she loved reading, cooking, gardening, music, and politics. In recent years, declining eyesight and physical health curtailed some of her favorite activities, but she began and maintained an active presence on Internet venues devoted to study of her husband's works, pursuing this new hobby with much energy. She endowed the Robert Anson Heinlein Chair in Aerospace Engineering, established on August 28, 2001, at Annapolis, by a gift of over $2.6 million, in honor of her late husband, a graduate of the Naval Academy's Class of 1929. She also helped to found The Heinlein Society, an educational charity dedicated to paying forward to generations to come the many Heinlein legacies. She also endowed the public library in Robert Heinlein's birthplace of Butler, Missouri. Readers have often remarked on the strength, intelligence, and power of his female characters; his fictional women were often based on Virginia Heinlein. As science fiction writer Spider Robinson said, several of Heinlein's women bear a striking resemblance to his wife Virginia. Many of Heinlein's books were dedicated to her. Virginia, or Ginny as she preferred to be called, was his sounding board and source of ideas; she originated the idea that became Stranger in a Strange Land. She was his first reader and trusted critic. Robert Heinlein once said she
Re: [rrff] Notice regarding Virginia Heinlein
On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 07:07 PM, Steve Sloan II wrote: snippage about Ms. Heinlein Sigh...A very classy lady. She'll be missed. RIP. john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
