On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 04:18 am, Dan Minette wrote:
The point I was making was that people do the right thing because they
believe in right and wrong. It doesn't have to be faith in God, but
it is
still faith based. By pointing out that these principals are just
lies and
myths, one is
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Doug Pensinger
...
The second part (altruism is an outcome of
evolution) is circular, since it assumes that our characteristics are
derived exclusively from evolutionary processes. Even if true,
it
Isn't the reasonable response to imperfect knowledge to rationally (or
scientifically) search for more knowledge, or to work on improving the
accuracy of the knowledge you do have?
Why do you think a reasonable response to imperfect knowledge is to
assume that there exists some divine being for
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Erik Reuter
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:24 AM
To: Killer Bs Discussion
Subject: Re: No conflicts between selfishness and morality?
Isn't the reasonable response to imperfect knowledge to rationally
On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 02:47:42PM -0700, Nick Arnett wrote:
Behalf Of Erik Reuter
But apparently, Nick, you don't want to always strive closer to
perfect knowledge, you feel better when you add some comforting
belief which is actually imperfect, poor quality knowledge.
Phooey. I've
I
Could the Week Anthropic Principle be the hypothesis that the Earth was
created in seven days?
The world was created in seven days, but it took 14 billion years or so for
the OSHA and EPA paperwork to go through.
William Taylor
-
The weak as if I cared
princple.
Nick Arnett wrote:
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Doug Pensinger
That makes little sense to me, could you step me through how (pseudo)
altruism is circular?
It starts with the premise that our characteristics are the result of
evolution
I think some of the arguments in this thread beg important questions. E.g.,
altruistic behavior doesn't require faith because it leads to success as a
species; success is an outcome of evolution, so altruism evolved. Is that
right?
The first part begs the question of success as a species. If
--- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think some of the arguments in this thread beg important questions.
E.g.,
altruistic behavior doesn't require faith because it leads to success as a
species; success is an outcome of evolution, so altruism evolved. Is that
right?
The first part
Nick Arnett wrote:
I think some of the arguments in this thread beg important questions. E.g.,
altruistic behavior doesn't require faith because it leads to success as a
species; success is an outcome of evolution, so altruism evolved. Is that
right?
Except that some (most?) things we consider
At 12:48 PM 7/7/03 -0700, Jan Coffey wrote:
--- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think some of the arguments in this thread beg important questions.
E.g.,
altruistic behavior doesn't require faith because it leads to success as a
species; success is an outcome of evolution, so altruism
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm answering Erik's message in pieces, because it was extremely long. I'
I'll start it with a general question, do people here think that there is
rarely a real conflict between one's own interest and the interest of
others?
- Original Message
Dan Minette wrote:
Let me give just one counter example now. (Only one for space limitation,
not for lack of examples.) Tonight, on the local news, there was an
apartment fire. One man was taken to the hospital for smoke inhalation. He
was at risk because, instead of just yelling fire and
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dan Minette wrote:
Let me give just one counter example now. (Only one for space
limitation,
not for lack of examples.) Tonight, on the local news, there was an
apartment fire. One man was taken to the hospital for smoke inhalation.
He
- Original Message -
From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: No conflicts between selfishness and morality?
Dan Minette wrote:
Let me give just one counter example now. (Only one for space
Jan Coffey wrote:
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Isn't this just an example of _enlightened_ self interest? Certainly
the guy could have saved his ass and gotten out right away, but as the
result of a little risk taking, he has raised his stature in the community.
Do you really
- Original Message -
From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: No conflicts between selfishness and morality?
Jan Coffey wrote:
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Isn't this just
Dan Minette wrote:
Our culture glorifies heroism, does it not? It's been ingrained upon us
from the time we are small children that to sacrifice one's own short
term self interest for the good of a larger group - especially helpless
individuals - is a good thing and will generally be rewarded.
- Original Message -
From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: No conflicts between selfishness and morality?
humans
(most?) fall back upon these instincts when their life is threatened.
Why does
Dan Minette wrote:
The point I was making was that people do the right thing because they
believe in right and wrong. It doesn't have to be faith in God, but it is
still faith based. By pointing out that these principals are just lies and
myths, one is undercutting the community.
Faith has
- Original Message -
From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: No conflicts between selfishness and morality?
Dan Minette wrote:
The point I was making was that people do the right thing
Dan Minette wrote:
...
Right, and raping and pillaging is an example of exploitive behavior. They
are both part of human nature. Saving lives is good, raping and pillaging
is bad.
Now, I can't prove that; its a matter of faith for me.
What do lies and myths have to do with it?
On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 12:12:18AM -0400, David Hobby wrote:
Good point. Such beliefs are not usually based in fact, but are
strongly held. So in a sense, they are based on faith. But somehow
it feels like a completely different KIND of faith than the faith
required to believe in a
Erik Reuter wrote:
On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 12:12:18AM -0400, David Hobby wrote:
Good point. Such beliefs are not usually based in fact, but are
strongly held. So in a sense, they are based on faith. But somehow
it feels like a completely different KIND of faith than the faith
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jan Coffey wrote:
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Isn't this just an example of _enlightened_ self interest? Certainly
the guy could have saved his ass and gotten out right away, but as the
result of a little risk taking, he has
Dan Minette wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Faith has nothing to do with it, IMO. Cooperative behavior is
successful, that's why we are who we are. Saving lives is a
manifestation of cooperative behavior.
Right, and raping and pillaging is an example
Jan Coffey wrote:
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You know, I voluntere on a regular basis for psitions which might place me in
danger and might have a significant benifit for others. (Floor safty warden
at work for instance) I don't think I once considered glorification or
reward.
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: No conflicts between selfishness and morality?
humans
(most?) fall back upon
--- David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Erik Reuter wrote:
On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 12:12:18AM -0400, David Hobby wrote:
Good point. Such beliefs are not usually based in fact, but are
strongly held. So in a sense, they are based on faith. But somehow
it feels like a
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jan Coffey wrote:
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You know, I voluntere on a regular basis for psitions which might place
me in
danger and might have a significant benifit for others. (Floor safty
warden
at work for
I'm answering Erik's message in pieces, because it was extremely long. I'
I'll start it with a general question, do people here think that there is
rarely a real conflict between one's own interest and the interest of
others?
- Original Message -
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
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