Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector-
Now as far as Slaves and Blacks we have had this here before too. Look
up
the history of the KKK. Started at a University and continued as a
way to
keep businesses from bringing in Blacks as strike breakers. If you
find
more please list the book or URL.
Are you saying that the KKK "started at a university?" You have blasted
me for
failure to document statements... I'd really like to see your
documentation that
the KKK started at a university. Same for your contention that it
"continued as a
way to keep businesses from bringing in blacks as strike breakers."
Here, for you enlightenment and entertainment, is where and when the KKK
was
organized:
On December 24, 1865, at Pulaski, Tennessee, in a small brick building
housing the
law offices of Judge Thomas Jones, six young veterans of the Confederate
Army
met. The last I heard, the office is still there, and marked with a
plaque.
While discussing "old army times," one of them said, "Lets start a club
of some
kind," and they talked about what it would be called, what activities
they would
do, and so forth. They didn't conclude anything that night, but had an
organizational meeting a few days later.. Attending were Capt. John
Kennedy ("B"
not "F"), Frank McCord, Calvin Jones, John Lester, Richard Reed, and
James Crow.
This information has been available for many years, and I've seen it in
several
books, including the biography, "Nathan Bedford Forrest" by Jack Hurst.
Now, I am becoming a bit short of tolerance for people who accuse me of
things
which are not true, while their condemnation should rightfully fall upon
their own
shoulders... In the future, either document what you say, or stop
insisting that
others do what you fail to do yourself.
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screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
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Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- For readings on Blacks that owned slaves see these resources. We have a book by Gary Mills, who a professor at Univ. of Alabama, "The Forgotten People," which is about Creoles of Color in Louisiana who owned slaves. It sells for $14.95, postpaid. "Black Slave owners" about Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860. It sells for $19.95, postpaid. So check out those books, those are approximate costs for the books. Another one to check out is Virginia's Attitude Toward Slavery and Secession by Beverly B. Munford, 1915. Noby the way you said the blacks could go northI did some checking because I knew better. I have written a book about this area and blacks were not allowed in many villages/cities around here. Also I checked around with a reenacting friend of mine from Ohio This is the e-mail sent and the reply received. " Now I need to find laws that prevented the blacks from going north...some states would not allow them in...please help me with this. Carlene The most blatant was Illinois'. In 1861 they passed a law making it illegal for a black person to be in the state. In 1862 they made it a part of their state constitution. Massachusetts: No law against slavery was ever passed by her legislature, and in that sense, the right to hold slaves may be said to have existed, until it was extinguished by adoption of the "constitutional amendment" in 1866. In 1840 (U.S. census) there were 40 slaves in Pennsylvania. New Jersey had 236 slaves for life in the 1850 census. In March 1788, Massachusetts passed a law ordering every black, mulatto, or Indian who came into the state and remained two months to be publickly whipped, and this punishmentwas to be repeated "if he or she shall not depart "toties quoties." This law remained in force until 1834. (Moore, History of Slavery in Mass., p. 229) There was also discussion on the KKK, well it is alive and well up north here. Keep your eye on Wisconsin on Martin Luther King's DayI think we are in for trouble. An article appeared in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel today. "The KKK will call of its Saturday rally at the state capitol if Gov Thompson admits he was wrong to originally deny the group a permit for the demonstration a leader said Monday. But a spokesman for the governor said Thompson wouldn't go along with that request. Wanting to prevent the vilence that could occur between the Klan and the counter demonstators Mike McQueeney, the Grand Dragon for Wisconsin, called on Thompson to publicly recognize the group has free speech and assembly rights too. If the governor does, he said the group would cancel its rally. Otherwise it will go forward as scheduled. "If one person gets hurt on the Capitol steps--I don't care if it's a negro, a jew, or a homosexual or a neo-Nazi--it will be on Tommy Thompson hands" McQueenely said Monday from his home in Mercer, Wis. "We'll cancel the rally it he admits by noon Wed. that he was wrong, Otherwise we will be sure to be there on Saturday. Madison is not ready for the Klan, and we don't want anyone in the state of Wis. to get hurt. We're not into violence, we're nonviolent. I can see something like this is going to lead to a confrontation and someone has to put a stop to it. I can stop it." A federal judge last week overturned the states decision to deny the group a permit for the event. U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb ruled Thompson could not deny the Klan's right to assemble and speck just because previous rallies held elsewhere became violent. The state had argued in court that the Klan used earlier rallies in Janesville and Beloit to incite violence. In December of 1997 rally in Beloit, nine people were arrested for fighting and 400 anti-Klan protestors showed up to challenge 18 Klan members. The Klan has schedule the rally for two days before Martin lutherKing Day to protest the holiday that honors him. State officials initially denied there quest because of safety concerns. After Crabbs ruling Thompson said he would not appeal the decision and would instruct Capitol police to make security preparations for the rally. Nearly 500 law enforcement officers will be available for the rally which could draw 100 Klan members and 2000 counter demonstartors..and it goes on a bit more...but you get the jist. BTW the first KKK was disbanded, and the first one served a purpose, a purpose which is less in severity than it is today...but the Klan is in other states...northern ones...and many northern states forbade the blacks to settle in their state Carlene DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- believe to be juvenile posts knocking one anothermaybe both of you need a time out. YI've been on this list for YEARSif you don't like it, LEAVE... CW-I have been listening to others and there is a lot of knowledge on this listwhen I got on this morning I saw this post calling someone else names...and for a while I thought that person should get cooled off too...but then as i read he was trying to be reasonable...take it private if you want to call others names instead of having this bunk end up in my mailbox. CWAs I said I am learning a lot of the others, and have been exposed to different way of looking at somethings... However I do get upset at name calling and innuendos has been going on for quite a while on this list. Maybe it was the first post I received when I got on that hit me wrong...but having slanderous remarks and you don't even have documentation for the remarks. G CWLike I have said I have been listening to others and there is a lot of knowledge on this list, and I appreciate them for their input...through their eyes I see things a little bit differently. ---Ma'am I consider you to be disrespectful to all of us on this list YWho the FUCK are YOU? YYou just join this list, and presume to DICTATE to those of us who have been on it for YEARS? CWI will voice my opinion if I see something that does not seem to be right ..like you do. Because you have been here longer does that mean I should not get any respect from you, and my posts are worth less than yours. after reading your post thoroughly. I do not want a post like this taking up room in my mailbox. YSo hit the fucking delete key... I have read your posts before, and you at times, can have a pretty good onejust do your name calling privately, instead of using the list for it. This way I can enjoy the other posts which you submit, but for that post to be the first one I read in the morning...well...I guess I expected more from you especially since you have been on the list for some time. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy your posts when you aren't bashing anyone around. so if you please write down your facts instead of posting personal opinion, I would be more than appreciative. YBite me. In this post you did not think you letyour emotions take over...if you findyourself doing this againwrite it --read it...edit it...or don't send it. YBite me. CWMa'am I do not think it would be wise, might be a bitter taste if I did.- Carlene DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Carlene M. Wojahn wrote: CW-I have been listening to others and there is a lot of knowledge on this listwhen I got on this morning I saw this post calling someone else names...and for a while I thought that person should get cooled off too...but then as i read he was trying to be reasonable...take it private if you want to call others names Follow your own advice...my post to you WAS private, you decided to then post it PUBLICLY to the list... WHY? It seems to me you are conducting a deliberate campaign of disrupting this list. June === The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year, Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear. -- Wm. Cullen Bryant: The Death of the Flowers === *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: Still voicing OPINION without FACTS, are we? Read the words, June... I believe them to be factual Documents from the era indicate that such was the situation, or that those who were living at the time believed it to be so Documents which you fail to give titles for, let alone quote... As a matter of FACT, Unitarianism is NOT prevalant here in the Northeast...Unitarianism isn't even Christianity... I have no idea what is prevalant in the northeast now... The same religions that have ALWAYS been prevalent... I said that religion in the north was "heavily influenced" by Unitarian thought... Religion in the North was 'heavily influenced' by the original Puritan colonists, and the conservative Protestant religions I previously mentioned... If I were to say that the opinions of Marx influenced the northeast, or that Napoleon's tactics influenced the Confederacy, it would not be the same as saying the North was Communist and the South was French. OK? Which means you admit that your statement is meaninless drivel... You may be aware of any number of facts of which I am unaware... Then why do you continue to post your PERSONAL OPINION and PREJUDICES as if they were FACTS? Jerry praises you for your 'documentation', but yet I've never seen you provide one iota of documentation...and in fact your private opinions posted as 'fact' have been roundly refuted by actual facts time and time again... If so, say what's on your mind. I already have, but I'll repeat it: You are an idiot who posts his personal opinion and prejudices as if they were a matter of fact, without providing a shred of documentation; and when you're obvious fallacies are pointed out by documented facts, you turn around and start calling those who provide FACTS to counter your prejudices any variety of names. But if you continue with your beligerant posts, I am going to start responding in kind... If DOCUMENTED FACTS are considered 'beligerant' by you, so be it... and I guarantee you, I am meaner than you are, Don't bet on it... So how 'bout you just lighten up a little bit, and be respectful... Again, if pointing out that you are posting personal opinion and prejudice as if they were 'facts' is considered 'disrespectful', so be it...I will NOT cease to point out your obvious errors... I personally feel your agenda is to disrupt this list in any manner that you can, and that you're just looking for an excuse to start up again. I will go on record as stating that I for one do NOT welcome you back. June === The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year, Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear. -- Wm. Cullen Bryant: The Death of the Flowers === *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: -Caveat Lector- On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: Still voicing OPINION without FACTS, are we? Read the words, June... I believe them to be factual Documents from the era indicate that such was the situation, or that those who were living at the time believed it to be so Documents which you fail to give titles for, let alone quote... This will give you something to start on: "Time On the Cross" by Fogel and Engerman. "A Defense of Virginia and the South" by Dabney. When you finish those, contact me and I'll send you some more. As a matter of FACT, Unitarianism is NOT prevalant here in the Northeast...Unitarianism isn't even Christianity... I have no idea what is prevalant in the northeast now... The same religions that have ALWAYS been prevalent... Probably so... That doesn't alter the fact that Unitarianism has had an influence on them. If I were to say that the opinions of Marx influenced the northeast, or that Napoleon's tactics influenced the Confederacy, it would not be the same as saying the North was Communist and the South was French. OK? Which means you admit that your statement is meaninless drivel... Which means that you cannot decifer between fact and fiction...and appear to be incapable of following a line of connected thoughts... I think I'm wasting my time. You may be aware of any number of facts of which I am unaware... Then why do you continue to post your PERSONAL OPINION and PREJUDICES as if they were FACTS? Hey, lady? The fact that you may know your mother's name (or maybe even your father's name), and I have not been exposed to that information, has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not what I say is "fact" or "opinion" unless I am commenting on your ancestors. Jerry praises you for your 'documentation', but yet I've never seen you provide one iota of documentation...and in fact your private opinions posted as 'fact' have been roundly refuted by actual facts time and time again... Well, I just gave you some... And which "private opinions" are you speaking of that have been roundly refuted by actual facts... Don't bother with "all of them," just give me a few. If so, say what's on your mind. I already have, but I'll repeat it: You are an idiot who posts his personal opinion and prejudices as if they were a matter of fact, Well, you're a super nice lady who is just way too sharp for me to pull that off on you, I suppose... But the challenge is still open... You provide one such "personal opinion or prejudice" that has been refuted by fact. When you do, I will confess that you are correct. without providing a shred of documentation; and when you're obvious fallacies are pointed out by documented facts, (by the way, it should be "your") I haven't seen the documented facts which point out my fallacies... Again, just summarize two or three for me. you turn around and start calling those who provide FACTS to counter your prejudices any variety of names. Oh? I don't think that is true, although memory may have failed me. Who, or when, specifically, did I call anyone who provided a fact to counter a prejudice any kind of name?? Maybe I owe them an apology... provide the info. But if you continue with your beligerant posts, I am going to start responding in kind... If DOCUMENTED FACTS are considered 'beligerant' by you, so be it... What DOCUMENTED FACT have you provided, that contradicted what I have said? and I guarantee you, I am meaner than you are, Don't bet on it... Don't have to. So how 'bout you just lighten up a little bit, and be respectful... Again, if pointing out that you are posting personal opinion and prejudice as if they were 'facts' is considered 'disrespectful', Well, I sort of think that calling someone a liar, without proof of their lying, or calling someone an "idiot" without documentation of that charge, might be considered disrepectful... It is where I live, anyway. Maybe its different in your neck of the woods. so be it...I will NOT cease to point out your obvious errors... I don't know of the first one you've pointed out yet. I personally feel your agenda is to disrupt this list in any manner that you can, and that you're just looking for an excuse to start up again. You keep challenging me... I assure you that I don't personally care to have discussions with you, so accusing me of wanting to be disruptive is silly. If you don't believe that, give it a try. Drop the discussion with me, and I assure you I'll leave you alone. I will go on record as stating that I for one do NOT welcome you back. Gee, I was hoping you were happy about it. Should my feelings be hurt? Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/10/99 10:23:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are two rather interesting photographs related to the CSA prison camp in Tyler, Texas (Camp Ford). One shows a group of prisoners photographed upon their departure from prison.. They were all dressed rather nattily, with frock coats, ties, "plantation" hats, etc. In fact, they "could have been dressed for the ball. " Shame on you, Hawk. Have you never heard of Potemkin Village? I think that the distance between us on how the slaves lived and were treated is due to two things. The living conditions and psychological environment of the slaves varied enormously between regions and plantations. I place greater credence in the slaves themselves as to what their lives were like. During the 1950s and 1960s when the South was being weaned from Jim Crow, it was common for Southern apologists to say things like "Some of my best friends..." or "We all got along fine here until those outsiders began stirring things up." [My wife attended a YWCA in the South during this time. When she and a friend arrived by car to the motel of a small town on their trip, they were frightened by the paranoia of the folks in the motel lobby. Many questions aimed at determining whether the travelers were there "to stir up trouble."] The apologists for slavery in the US are hardly alone, the phenomena is common enough. For instance, i have no doubt that if we asked the Japanese who participated in the POW camps where American prisoners were held how the prisoners were treated. They would assure the questioner that the treatment was fair and reasonable. My recollection is that Americans died in the Japanese POW camps at a rate 8 times greater than they died in the camps of Nazi Germany. Nothing is more enlightening on this issue than to read Bataan Death March which lets the American prisoners speak for themselves. Likewise the ex-slaves speak for themselves. Their opinions vary considerably but overall the picture emerges of mostly semi-isolated lives on plantations of fewer than 10 slaves having brutal lives of onerous labor in the fields with no regard shown for families or respect for person. Yes, there are exceptions, such as owner buying a comely mulatto girl who could sew after a fashion and taking her back home, installing her in a bedroom with a a needle and thread and announcing to the Mrs. that they had a new seamstress. This was hardly a good life for either the slave girl or the mistress but i suppose you could contend that it was a pleasant life of ease if your thinking allows it. Jerry DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector-
Now as far as Slaves and Blacks we have had this here before too. Look up
the history of the KKK. Started at a University and continued as a way to
keep businesses from bringing in Blacks as strike breakers. If you find
more please list the book or URL. If you want to know more ask questions
instead of sprouting off personal opinions - there are many on this list
that have studied this extensively. Hawk does have a interesting mind set
but his posts have shown him to be a lazy researcher, would be curious how
he would summarized some of these books or URLs. But for him to just talk
about his history professor, the propaganda he learned in school and to now
give us a book or something so that we can critic that propaganda as well is
boring.
For Carlene
Up till now you have contributed nothing to this list besides "Personal
Opinion". Now there may be others that have extreme opinions - we have had
URL's from some about Vampires, Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims - you
get the idea. Quoting the Bible to some of the people that read this list
just shows a narrow mindedness that would allow propaganda to flurish.
Talking about the underlying themes of the Bible is acceptable but quoting a
sheep type mentality will make many of us bored "At Great Speed"
"To Find New Oceans You Must Not Be Afraid To Lose Sight Of The Shore"
This is why I say the I believe in the 10 Commandments and the Constitution!
Now think of this list as a English paper that you have to turn in and that
(at least some of) your posts are required to have citations, documentation,
or URLs that allow us to make our own opinions. We are either bored,
curious, nosy, making a living writing - but all of us believe that we have
brains that allow us to study ourselves.
From the Bible - My father and yours - In other words I am allowed to study
from the same book(s) that he did "The Old Testament" and learn the same
things that he did. Now if you want to use the Bible - live by YOUR beliefs
and give us something that allows us to make our own opinions Not just
having to listen to you sprouting your own version of propaganda. We get
away with a bit of ("good") natured quibbling at times because we have
(previously) brought in some very good tibits. This list is "Food For
Thought" research so again Substancenot soapboxing! .
I am not attacking you personally or attacking at all! You have read the
theme (or thread) of this list and you are allowed to say what ever you want
(Free Speech) as long as you can come up with different citations. Do not
treat me as if I can not read or research or as if you are afraid that I
might find out something different.
Take it up with the list manager(s) - you will find that they will back me
up or am I backing them up? So put up (some citations or something
sometimes) or
PLEASE
shut up and this goes to some others (that have been using this as a forum
for their PRIVATE opinions from PRIVATE research as well) as well.
Laura
AKA The Pied Piper
-Original Message-
From: Carlene M. Wojahn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector-
On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote:
Still voicing OPINION without FACTS, are we?
Read the words, June... I believe them to be factual Documents from
the era indicate
that such was the situation,
Documents which you fail to give titles for, let alone quote...
Yes please state what documents you are talking about.
As a matter of FACT, Unitarianism is NOT prevalant here in the
Northeast...Unitarianism isn't even Christianity...
-But most of our leaders were Unitarianism...well according to one of
my history profs.
---The regions do have different types of religion as I first pointed
out...the South is
more fundamentalist..Baptist...Bible Churches...the Northern Churches
more
structured...and maybe more rigid...
"The north was all into "social engineering" or "solving the problems
of the poor" etc
much like the Methodist Church today... it was more "man-centered" rather
than bible centered
or Christ-centered"
-I know where I live there are mainly the main protestant and Catholic
Churches..not many
Bible or Baptist, and they seem to be quite prevalent done south..do your
homework you can
find this out on your own.
If I were to say that the opinions of Marx influenced the northeast, or
that Napoleon's tactics influenced the Confederacy, it would not be the
same as saying the North was Communist and the South was French. OK?
Which means you admit that your statement is meaninless drivel...
===Reread his statement..perfectly logical to mehe is simply trying to
say something can
be influenced by something...but that does not mean it is what it is
influenced by.
Okay...example ...
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- For Carlene Up till now you have contributed nothing to this list besides "Personal Opinion". Excuse me !!! Personal opinion...is it personal opinion that there have been KKK activities up north Okayhere is some documentation Chicago Historical Information 1919: Race Riots On the afternoon of July 27, 1919, Eugene Williams, a black youth, drowned of exhaustion off the 29th Street beach. A stone throwing melee between blacks and whites on the beach prevented the boy from coming ashore safely. After clinging to a railroad tie for a lengthy period, he drowned when he no longer had the strength to hold on. This was the finding of the Cook County Coroner's Office after an inquest was held into the cause of death. But false reports that he had been stoned to death led to five days of rioting in Chicago that claimed the lives of a total of 23 blacks and 15 whites, with 291 wounded and maimed. The Coroner's Office spent 70 day sessions and 20 night sessions on inquest work and in examining 450 witnesses. Those findings, reported in the Coroner's Report of 1919 are followed by his recommendations to deal with the festering social and economic conditions that were the precipitating factors leading to the riots. Sources: Hoffman, Peter M. The Race Riots. Published as the: Cook County (Ill.). Coroner's Office. Biennial Report 1918-1919 and Official Record of Inquests on the Victims of the Race Riots of July and August, 1919. Deaths, Disturbances, Disasters and Disorders in Chicago Compiled by Reference Librarians Ellen O'Brien and Lyle Benedict Municipal Reference Collection, Chicago Public Library Last Updated: 3/97 Now what other opinions did I give out...let me look. Constitutionally, they should of been allowed to secede, That is a fact...it was constitutionally correct that they had the right to secede,,,look at the documents issued during the Buchanann administration...do you want urls...I will get them for you. but I think what might have happened here, is Lincoln may have thought it was a minor rebellion led by a few. Not until he got forces out, did he realize how dedicated each southron was and is dedicated to the cause. This is opinion.. The North and the South had and still has a different culture, economic structure, and I believe due to these reasons ...misunderstanding occurred. Fact...there cultures, economic structures were and are different...the movement of the northerners down there may be changing their culture. It is interesting to note, the people selling the slaves were black men themselves, Fact and the one slave owner who had the most slaves was a Haitian that lived in Louisiana. Fact One must also remember there were white slaves. Fact well slaves were expensiveand expensive to maintain(slavery would have faded out on its own) Fact It was the over-seers that were the culprits, people who learned how to abuse their power. But if the were caught...many times it was there behind. Fact Slavery as we see it, in the situation that we are in is evil, we were raised that way, but let me throw out this one question on this, how can we today dare judge a society of yesterday...without understanding the culture, and the mores of that society. Opinion Many black folk were like family and treated as of such. Fact.. Only 5% were slave owners, the war was over preservation of cultures on both sides. Fact Economics is what one looks at, it was becoming uneconomical to have slaves, and was going out. Opinion Those that owned the slaves would have made this transition from slavery to freeman a lot more smoother, many slaves were thrown out in the streets, did not have a place to go, the mighty liberals of their day did not have a plan...the owners would have. Opinion You have NO comprehension of what you are talking about when you start prattling about how "corrupted" the south Fact Lee and others freed their slaves? Yes, there were economic reasons to believe slavery would end. But there were other forces that would have ended it as well. Now I did this with one post, could go back and do it with others...I am searching and have been for some time...I have the urls that can back up everything I stated as a fact and will if so requested... Talking about the underlying themes of the Bible is acceptable but quoting a sheep type mentality will make many of us bored "At Great Speed" Did I do this ??? I don't think so. "This list is "Food For Thought" research so again Substancenot soapboxing! . Soapboxing ??? I am not attacking you personally or attacking at all! You have read the theme (or thread) of this list and you are allowed to say what ever you want (Free Speech) as long as you can come up with different citations. HUH ? Do not treat me as if I can not read or research or as if you are afraid that I might find out something different. I don't and
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My understanding of law has lead me to believe that the southern states had the legal right to leave the union and that they did solawfully. As I stated, the Supreme Court of the time was probably in agreement with this position. It was Lincoln and others in the northern states who ignored their oathes to the Constitution. Again these are facts/questions, not opinions. That is my understanding as well, I have been doing a lot of research concerning this and I have some questions Why did states like Maine, New York, even Wisconsin, think they had the right to secede ? Virginia was one state ..yet part of that state broke away and became another, how can this happen if secession is not constitutional ? Why did the Southron states have to reapply for admission into statehood ? When the 14th amendment was being voted on ...how come they found out for a brief period they were non-states and could not vote on it ? Just a few questions What motivated them. They did not perform an act merely because it was legal, i.e. they did not act arbitrarily. --No it wasn't illegal, there was talk about the northern states doing..seceding as well. They joined in the Confederacy because it stood for their way of seeing, their way of living. That way was based upon slavery. The Southern leadership could not stay in the Union without accepting a gradual change over in the dirty little condition that made their way possible. No it was more based on states rights, slavery would of disappeared on its on with the westward movement..so the last sentence above is incorrect. The North was not going to accept additional slave states and the opposition to slavery was growing. -But who had sold the slaves to the South ? DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/9/99 7:55:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was raised in the old South in Claxton, Georgia 1941-1949 and I can tell you from personal experience that the old South I experienced respected everyone. Your post is disconnected from reality. You and Howard have shared your fantasy but it doesn't wash. When southern blacks with a number of participating whites began the freedom bus rides and sin-ins during the 1950s and 1960s, they were a threat to most of the quaint gentle white folk of the South. That's why so many of the marchers and bus riders and sit-in people were beaten, sometimes so bad that they were maimed, sometimes even killed but most were simply hosed or had police dogs sicked on them or were beaten with night sticks and jailed. Reality may not be pretty but if you face it you don't have to defend something that never was. Jerry DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/9/99 12:51:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now, I been a-thinkin', Lord have mercy, I can create a list that will recieve all posts from CTRL and will be open for more discussion and chat. Sounds good to me. Jerry DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- "Carlene M. Wojahn" wrote: -Caveat Lector- what is this..I don't understand this list, first message I opened, one was accusing one to be another.,,now you are saying it happens all of the time. Is this what this list is about, if so I might as well leave. I want to learn about things not argue if he is really he..if she is he ..if me is me...or whatever. I hope this list is more than that. Carlene Baby please don't go, baby please don't go, baby please don't go down to New Orleans I'll miss you so. -Blind Boy Phunt- ( J2 ) DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Dear Jerry, I remember those times that you speak of in the LATE fifty's early sixty's. That was almost twenty years difference from MY experience. The events that happened had nothing to do with MY experience. In my post, I indicated I lived in Claxton, Georgia. That's a whole different country than Alabama. Most of the beatings and killings were done by the Police force, and a very, very, tiny segment of the whites. Any way, calling me a liar or attacking me for simply reporting my memories of how things really was simply because they don't align with your perception of the truth is what does not wash. I can remember the one place that Blacks and whites together met. At the country store, on Saturday or after church on Sunday. It was called the "porch meeting". the General store had a big front porch with rockers and barrels and wood crates to sit on. It even had a wood stove on one side for when it got cold. No body went in side our of respect for the owner of the store. Blacks and Whites sat and smoked, chewed, carved; talked about the weather; talked about nothing and talked about everything. And yes, Blacks sat on one side and Whites sat on the other side some times, and other times they just sat on the porch with their legs hanging off. No one sat on the steps. Yes, maybe we were isolated from the media's attempt to divide the races and keep them at each others throats, but you see, we were all we had! We were our community. It made no difference whether we LIKED blacks or not, and it made no difference whether THEY LIKED Whites or not. What we did was RESPECT each other! We were all equally poor and all we had was each other. What I have reported on this list is the truth FROM MY EXPERIENCE. I lived it and I know. Maybe you might face some reality yourself and understand that any number of blacks killed or maimed while protesting does not make the whole world guilty does it? The same as the Kent State Massacre does not make the whole National Guard Guilty. You need to realize that most of this atrocities have been perpetrated by your government. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but you need not call someone you don't know a liar for expressing his memories; just because it don't align with your agenda. So if you have a response (and I know you will) could you just keep it civil and not resort to name calling or character bashing? Maybe we could just debate the issues and leave the character out of it. Sincerely Jim Norman Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/9/99 7:55:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was raised in the old South in Claxton, Georgia 1941-1949 and I can tell you from personal experience that the old South I experienced respected everyone. Your post is disconnected from reality. You and Howard have shared your fantasy but it doesn't wash. When southern blacks with a number of participating whites began the freedom bus rides and sin-ins during the 1950s and 1960s, they were a threat to most of the quaint gentle white folk of the South. That's why so many of the marchers and bus riders and sit-in people were beaten, sometimes so bad that they were maimed, sometimes even killed but most were simply hosed or had police dogs sicked on them or were beaten with night sticks and jailed. Reality may not be pretty but if you face it you don't have to defend something that never was. Jerry DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: -Caveat Lector- On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Carlene M. Wojahn wrote: or even that of 135 years ago, you got to remember the differences in the cultures between the north and the south, and that culture includes their religion. How was the religion of the South different from that of the North? The north, and particularly the northeast, was under the strong influence of Unitarianism, whereas the South was primarily Calvinistic That's the short answer, but the two philosophies are diametrically opposite to each other. What Roadsend explained is that when people start to use any religious treatise to support their views, one no longer has 'discussion' but prosyletizing...since one's religious beliefs all boil down to belief and faith, not facts. Anyone who expresses "strong opinions" based on what they've learned (rather than pure emotionalism) is expressing a thought based on their "religion," even if it is atheism. In the discourse leading up to the present discussion, someone opined that slavery was a "sin." However, when someone (such as I did) pointed out the *historical fact* that the Southern people did not consider it a "sin" based on their understanding of what is "sinful" as outlined in the Bible, that is NOT prosylitizing, but offering a historical basis for various actions... These *facts* -- like all "facts" -- are evididence to support a thesis, and not advocacy for any religion. Now, I am loathe to get into a "religious debate" on this list, but the bible is set forth primarily as a document (or documents) that claim to relate historical facts and offer some evidence of their claims. Thus, when one reads the Washington Post or the New York times, although the reported "history" may be hours old rather than hundreds of years, the reader who accepts what is said, is doing so "by faith." Those who reject tabloid news are rejecting it because they do not think the evidence supports the "news." Without first-hand knowledge, both views are taken "by faith." So if it is reported that, for instance, that U.S. warplanes bombed Iraq, the reader's expressions of belief or disbelief do not consititute a "religious debate." I could argue for the establishment of some law based on what Buddha taught...but if other's do not follow Buddhism, my argument is meaningless, and if I insist on quoting tenets of Buddhism, I'm then on a soapbox, prosyletizing my PERSONAL beliefs/faith/superstition, and not DISCUSSING FACTS. However, if you say that the VietNamese Buddist monks (during the 1960's) were involved in a revolution against the Catholic French, and their self-inceneration was a sign of their Buddist beliefs justified suicide as a tactic of revolution, you would not be "on a soapbox, prosyletizing PERSONAL belief" but discussing facts -- as you understood them, not having had the personal opportunity to discuss their purpose nor intent to cook themselves in public -- which would at least imply some stronger motive than a simple adult temper-tantrum. Now, I COULD discuss aspects of life in a Buddhist country, and compare how their political system and quality of life compare to, say, a Moslem or 'Christian' country...that would be discussing FACTS...but if the discussion degenerates into an argument about which religion is 'correct', then it's OT for this list... But of course, that is precisely what has taken place in the past few days. At least I haven't advocated that anyone "get saved" by accepting whatever religion that I adhere to... Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/8/99 6:23:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sometimes people would rather "be taken care of" than face life's uncertainties armed only with their own skills and decision-making abilities. Welcome back, Hawk. Many of us missed hearing your arguments however we disagreed because your supporting evidence offered something to get one's teeth into. I'm not sure what to say regarding your remarks concerning the scriptures since, apparently, some are grievously offended by any mention of spiritual or moral matters - at least they are offended when scriptures are referenced as opposed to, say, Urantia channeled baloney. I will only point out that we are directed away from legalism and toward general principles so i am puzzled by your statement that the principles cannot be applied in the specific. It seems to me that they could then never be applied. I am reminded of something a priest said at a class for the general public on biblical exegesis. The priest was British and supposedly a scholar of considerable talent. (Incidentally, this class was free, a not uncommon event in those days of the 60s.) He sarcastically said that whenever the bureaucrats or politicians of Britain commented on the golden rule and other such, they would say, "Well, that's all well and good but one cannot run an empire on ideals." Of course, at this time the empire had already dissolved. You speak of the slave mentality and i know that it lives in many people. However, IMO the root of it is in oppression. When folks get so frustrated and despair of being allowed to do, they sometimes sort of give up and go along with the notion that if something good is going to happen, it must come from massah (the corporation, government, church, et al). Of course this is not confined to actual ex-slaves. You ask about what state had the removal of thumbs as punishment for learning to read. The plantations were in the bush. The law was massah and vice versa. When you read the narratives of the ex-slaves your eyes are opened. The law is irrelevant when it is not available and when the entire economy depended upon supporting massah's heroic efforts to keep everyone in their place. Literate thinking slaves are an obvious threat. Why do you think our own news media is so carefully controlled? The weak spot in the plantation was the owner's children, their eagerness to share what they know and show off at the same time. When a slave learned to read, he taught others. When a plantation had more than, say, a score of slaves, they would meet at night in culverts or ditches with the overhead covered with branches and twigs. They told each other about what was going on, 10 pair of eyes in different places could see a lot. With good fortune, one would teach reading. When a slave stopped overnight attached to plantation visitors, they could hear about things far away and give information in return. These underground schools were vital to the encouragement that comes from camaraderie. The above remark applies to prayer also. Bear in mind that each plantation had its own way to deal with issues in the slave community, namely massah's way. A few, especially the large plantations with hundreds of slaves, were relatively liberal and followed their own house rules fairly consistently. Jefferson Davis ran one of these operations. Most plantation owners were rather harsh. Economics led the most intelligent owners to give their slaves just enough sustenance and rest to maintain the work. The photographs of the slaves tell the story by their faces. Jerry Apparently, many of the owners were as ignorant as the slaves about prayer. It was common for owners to forbid prayer, possibly because they did not want their slaves to have either hope or comfort or maybe because the owners really were nervous about the slaves communicating with the living god. The slaves, who like the owners apparently never heard of silent prayer or believed it ineffective, would speak their prayers into a tub of water to muffle it. Jerry DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- Welcome back, Hawk. Many of us missed hearing your arguments however we disagreed because your supporting evidence offered something to get one's teeth into. Thanks for the welcome. I'm not sure what to say regarding your remarks concerning the scriptures since, apparently, some are grievously offended by any mention of spiritual or moral matters - at least they are offended when scriptures are referenced as opposed to, say, Urantia channeled baloney. I will only point out that we are directed away from legalism and toward general principles so i am puzzled by your statement that the principles cannot be applied in the specific. It seems to me that they could then never be applied. That's an interesting question.. It seems to me that there are any number of "general summaries" or guidelines that "usually" apply... While I am not in agreement with the over-all thesis of "situation ethics," I do that that general principles may be over-ruled by specific guidelines. Let's say that it is a general rule that a soldier should obey his superior. However, there may be specific rules that speak to more carefully defined situations. If a superior officer tells Pvt. Peabody, "Strip that woman's clothing from her body and rape her," then Pvt. Peabody should be responsible enough to say that rape of a civilian by a soldier is prohibited by a specific rule. If the "general rule" is to obey the superior officer, and he superior officer says, toss a grenade into that building... BUT, the soldier knows that non-combatant women or children are hiding in there for safety, Pvt Peabody would be justified in refusing the order, which (under other circumstances) might be perfectly litigitimate. Thus, when a multitude of very specific guidelines are stated in which slave holders and slaves are instructed in the proper manner of conducting themselves in their relationship, and never once even an added footnote that "slavery is, after all, evil," then we cannot apply a general rule of treating people in a manner that we would like to be treated as covering that issue. In 1st John, for instance, there is a statement that "Christians don't sin." However, in the next few sentences, John talks about all kinds of sin that Christians are known to have committed (and are likely to again). It is somewhat along the lines of a father saying, "Son, you are a Smith... and we Smith's don't act that way," when the conversation was initiated precisely because a Smith was acting that way. Another passage comes to mind: "Answer NOT a fool according to his folly, lest you become like him," and in the very next verse, written by the same author, he goes on to say, "ANSWER a food according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own conceit." So, the actor's action may depend on the intended or anticipated result. To make this somewhat topical... Most of us would say that lying is a bad sociological action... and most of us would tell our children that one should not lie. However, in some circumstances lying might be the proper thing to do... after all, what is camoflage, if it isn't an attempt to deceive someone (usually someone bent on killing you)? You speak of the slave mentality and i know that it lives in many people. However, IMO the root of it is in oppression. When folks get so frustrated and despair of being allowed to do, they sometimes sort of give up and go along with the notion that if something good is going to happen, it must come from massah (the corporation, government, church, et al). Of course this is not confined to actual ex-slaves. Right.. having once been a private in the Army, I understand the concept. If one's dedication to self-discipline, hard work, dedication, and honesty aren't likely to be rewarded, it certainly dampens the enthusiasm for such ideals. I have visited several formerly Communist nations... The quality of workmanship is deplorable! Why go to any extra effort, if those efforts won't make any beneficial effect in one's life? I might say the same thing seems to raise its head concerning a large number of government employees. You ask about what state had the removal of thumbs as punishment for learning to read. The plantations were in the bush. I don't agree with that as a general statement. There was a highly structured society in the Confederate States. Plantations were not isolated societies. The law was massah and vice versa. When you read the narratives of the ex-slaves your eyes are opened. In some sense, you are exactly right... The "law" was generally whatever the master said... But not in any appreciable degree than the law governing a husband/wife or parent/child, or even employer/apprentice relationship. However, I have already directed the list's attention to various laws of the state of Virginia (for instance) regarding physical abuse of slaves, including assault and rape. "Massa"
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Welcome Carlene This is a research list and even limited to a 100 posts a day it can still be hard to keep up. There are achieves available at Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ that when you check this thread you will see what was posted before you signed on. I for one don't have much truck with personal discussions and so this is the last that you will see me on this thread. I am starting a new one with something that I have only posted as a URL. Education, Religion and Propaganda It starts slow and then takes off. Laura AKA The Pied Piper -Original Message- From: Carlene M. Wojahn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison -Caveat Lector- Thank you for your warm welcome..the first post I opened up was the post accusing you to be someone else. The mentality of that first message got me wondering about this list. But I will stick around and see what I can learn, if anything I can learn from youand others who actually think before they write.. and for those of you wondering if I am someone else from this list check out my isp and you find out that I am not..I really am me. Carlene Carlene William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Carlene, Welcome to the list! This is the second time I've subscribed...and you DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- You are correct. It is your list. But, (oh shit here, it comes) what I see is censorship because you don't like his method of supporting his position. I enjoy the list and have learned a lot from both positions of the debate. My appraisal of the intercourse was (in Hawk's defense) honest debate using facts and historical documents; countered by name calling and personal assault. Hawk's retorts to the effacement efforts were, in my opinion, superior. The other debators resorted to name calling and debasement after the second post and it degenerated from there. I think you should be able to sustain your position with substance, not censorship. I further believe, in any debate you should be able to support your position for more than two post without resorting to name calling. Thank you for your work in maintaining this list. I learn a lot from the folks who post here. Sincerely, Jim Norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- I will agree, that there is much 'blame' to go around during the recent 'STUPID' bs flamings. And I really don't want to be a recess monitor. Sometimes I figure, if ya dish it out better expect to deal with it. Mostly it is a bore. Hawk was not put on 'no post' for 'baiting or flaming, but my own personal distaste for bible-thumping slavery apologists. Historical outlooks/discussions buttressed by bibical 'infalliabilty and interpretation" are futile and a waste of time. MHO And personally, somekind of hang-up, I guess, but I just don't 'cotton' to racism, bigotry and slavery, 'authorized' by the Bible, Chamber of Commerce or whatever. Excuse me. And besides what/whose sides? There is the cryptocracy. Their helpers and us, hoi polloi. Om K If people wish to pursue a more broader range discusion list, relating to conspiracy theory, that can be accomplished. But the utility of CTRL goes down when there is a high posting level and a lot of 'noise'. In a message dated 1/8/99 8:19:37 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: May I second the motion. In my opinion, "baiting" took place on both sides and if one goes, they should all go. Jim norman - Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/9/99 4:30:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You own the list. You can do what ever you want with it. However, your banning Hawk from the list without even a warning or and ending to that particular thread is objectionable to me. Will I be next? Now I will have to be looking at everything I write and wonder if I will be cut off for writing it. I don't know if your cutting him from the list is because of what you stated or if it was because you did not wish to deal with an arguement you had firmly planted in your mind and did not wish to have shaken. I personally do not recall a passage in the Bible which condemns slavery even though my own code of ethics precludes it. Perhaps a deeper understanding of the moral code of 3,000 years ago and its relationship to that of today would be useful. I don't know. But apparently we aren't going to be discussing it here. best wishes, Howard Davis I beg to differ with you here. Kris did indeed warn him and all others about the rhetoric, and has on several occasions made his wishes known as far as what is acceptable and what is not on this list. The use of the bible and other religious material for the furtherance of ones own particular viewpoints is off topic here and smacks of proselytizing and if you will look at the disclaimer in every post this is clearly forbidden. Personally I would have done the same, but maybe would have added a few other people to the list as well. Kris does an admirable job here having to deal with so much garbage makes the job that much harder. This list is about conspiracy theory, get it? If not, bye, bye. Thanks Teo1000 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/9/99 12:51:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Political and religious 'stances' discussions are subjects based upon 'personal' 'beliefs' and continual battlement on these subjects deter our study of 'social history and the forces behind the scenes. They are no win arguments that just go on and on, and that is why they should not be discussed here because they take away space that could be better served discussing other things that can be useful to everyone on the list. Teo1000 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- I believe the problem is a misunderstanding of his beliefs. I don't believe he supports slavery, he simple reported the truth about what happened in history. Slavery still exist today and is not limited to black people. His debate is not about his views, but about the history. I think he is factual in his references. I was raised in the old South in Claxton, Georgia 1941-1949 and I can tell you from personal experience that the old South I experienced respected everyone. There was no racial tension as today. Black people wanted to be with their kind and whites wanted the same. We worked together Black and White to plant and clear the crops since most of the able bodied men were still at war. Everyone helped everyone else. If uncle Joe or uncle John wanted to leave a box of food and supplies on a Black's front porch, it had to be done early in the morning before they woke up, cause if they saw him, they would chase him down and make him take it back. No body wanted charity. My first real introduction to charity was when my Uncle John with bargain for 30 minutes with a Black fellow who lived down the road to swap his carved stick figure for a quart of Uncle John's corn liquor. He threw the carving in the wood box. When I questioned him as to why he threw it away after trading for it he replied, " You don't think that man would take charity, do You?" Things have changed a lot since then. The "hit the delete button" remark was un-necessary; hitting the delete button only perpetuates ignorance. It is not an escape. Sincerely and respectfully, Jim Norman William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- What constitutes "baiting"? While I've subscribed to the list, I've read posts attacking Jews, minorities, and "liberals." Plus, all of the vile and scurrilous posts about the President and Hillary. In addition, I've read posts that have targeted the poor, welfare recipients, and Native Americans. Not to mention the many posts attacking feminists or women in general. Plus, there are the many strange posts defending slavery. I have responded to these many attacks in as courteous a manner as possible. Barb Witt, who does not share my views on many issues, has pointed out that I have tried to be fair and polite to those who I disagree with. I don't think I've "baited" anyone. If anything, I have been "baited" by the neofascists on the list from the outset with snide remarks and ad hominem attacks. I locked horns with Hawk...only to now be accused of being Hawk in disguise!!! Ha ha...go figure! Yes, there is a similarity between the two of us... And I do respect the maneven though I disagree with everything he believes. I've spent my entire life surrounded by people who think like he doesand I think I was making progress towards showing him that liberals and people of color also love their country...also love their kids...also believe in decency, integrity, respect for property...the same things he values I'm not a white middle class American. I didn't go to an elitist school... My father was an alcoholic, parents divorced when I was twelve... I know what it's like to live on the streets and be hungry...how many of you can say the same? Have you ever worked at a factory? washed dishes to eat? worked in construction? ...struggled to survive? Old Hawk and I come from the same low strata. We are the people who follow behind your parade with the shovels. I understand his sense of betrayal and rage. He's my brother.. although I disagree with his views. So...if you dislike my posts...just hit the delete button. On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Jim Norman wrote: -Caveat Lector- May I second the motion. In my opinion, "baiting" took place on both sides and if one goes, they should all go. Jim norman William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Hawk has informed me that he was removed from the list. I would like the listowner to reconsider his or her decision. All of us have been guilty of intemperate remarks from time to time on this list. (myself included.) I'm on the opposite end of the political spectrum from the dread bird, and I didn't find his posts that offensive. I've read some blatantly anti-semitic stuff that was far more offensive, in my opinion, that his posts.. Best wishes, William On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- I think you missed my earlier post. I'm not against the idea of states leaving the Union...per se. In the case of the Civil War, as in most wars, the issues were confused and complex. But I think on the issue of slavery there was no compromise. Mr. Davis, what appears to be "logical" or "illogical" depends upon your point of view, the criteria one uses to frame a particular discussion. For example, if you were a white male southerner at the time who owned
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- I will agree, that there is much 'blame' to go around during the recent 'STUPID' bs flamings. And I really don't want to be a recess monitor. Sometimes I figure, if ya dish it out better expect to deal with it. Mostly it is a bore. Hawk was not put on 'no post' for 'baiting or flaming, but my own personal distaste for bible-thumping slavery apologists. Historical outlooks/discussions buttressed by bibical 'infalliabilty and interpretation" are futile and a waste of time. MHO And personally, somekind of hang-up, I guess, but I just don't 'cotton' to racism, bigotry and slavery, 'authorized' by the Bible, Chamber of Commerce or whatever. Excuse me. And besides what/whose sides? There is the cryptocracy. Their helpers and us, hoi polloi. Om K If people wish to pursue a more broader range discusion list, relating to conspiracy theory, that can be accomplished. But the utility of CTRL goes down when there is a high posting level and a lot of 'noise'. In a message dated 1/8/99 8:19:37 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: May I second the motion. In my opinion, "baiting" took place on both sides and if one goes, they should all go. Jim norman - Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- You own the list. You can do what ever you want with it. However, your banning Hawk from the list without even a warning or and ending to that particular thread is objectionable to me. Will I be next? Now I will have to be looking at everything I write and wonder if I will be cut off for writing it. I don't know if your cutting him from the list is because of what you stated or if it was because you did not wish to deal with an arguement you had firmly planted in your mind and did not wish to have shaken. I personally do not recall a passage in the Bible which condemns slavery even though my own code of ethics precludes it. Perhaps a deeper understanding of the moral code of 3,000 years ago and its relationship to that of today would be useful. I don't know. But apparently we aren't going to be discussing it here. best wishes, Howard Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- I will agree, that there is much 'blame' to go around during the recent 'STUPID' bs flamings. And I really don't want to be a recess monitor. Sometimes I figure, if ya dish it out better expect to deal with it. Mostly it is a bore. Hawk was not put on 'no post' for 'baiting or flaming, but my own personal distaste for bible-thumping slavery apologists. Historical outlooks/discussions buttressed by bibical 'infalliabilty and interpretation" are futile and a waste of time. MHO And personally, somekind of hang-up, I guess, but I just don't 'cotton' to racism, bigotry and slavery, 'authorized' by the Bible, Chamber of Commerce or whatever. Excuse me. And besides what/whose sides? There is the cryptocracy. Their helpers and us, hoi polloi. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- What constitutes "baiting"? While I've subscribed to the list, I've read posts attacking Jews, minorities, and "liberals." Plus, all of the vile and scurrilous posts about the President and Hillary. In addition, I've read posts that have targeted the poor, welfare recipients, and Native Americans. Not to mention the many posts attacking feminists or women in general. Plus, there are the many strange posts defending slavery. I have responded to these many attacks in as courteous a manner as possible. Barb Witt, who does not share my views on many issues, has pointed out that I have tried to be fair and polite to those who I disagree with. I don't think I've "baited" anyone. If anything, I have been "baited" by the neofascists on the list from the outset with snide remarks and ad hominem attacks. I locked horns with Hawk...only to now be accused of being Hawk in disguise!!! Ha ha...go figure! Yes, there is a similarity between the two of us... And I do respect the maneven though I disagree with everything he believes. I've spent my entire life surrounded by people who think like he doesand I think I was making progress towards showing him that liberals and people of color also love their country...also love their kids...also believe in decency, integrity, respect for property...the same things he values I'm not a white middle class American. I didn't go to an elitist school... My father was an alcoholic, parents divorced when I was twelve... I know what it's like to live on the streets and be hungry...how many of you can say the same? Have you ever worked at a factory? washed dishes to eat? worked in construction? ...struggled to survive? Old Hawk and I come from the same low strata. We are the people who follow behind your parade with the shovels. I understand his sense of betrayal and rage. He's my brother.. although I disagree with his views. So...if you dislike my posts...just hit the delete button. On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Jim Norman wrote: -Caveat Lector- May I second the motion. In my opinion, "baiting" took place on both sides and if one goes, they should all go. Jim norman William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Hawk has informed me that he was removed from the list. I would like the listowner to reconsider his or her decision. All of us have been guilty of intemperate remarks from time to time on this list. (myself included.) I'm on the opposite end of the political spectrum from the dread bird, and I didn't find his posts that offensive. I've read some blatantly anti-semitic stuff that was far more offensive, in my opinion, that his posts.. Best wishes, William On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- I think you missed my earlier post. I'm not against the idea of states leaving the Union...per se. In the case of the Civil War, as in most wars, the issues were confused and complex. But I think on the issue of slavery there was no compromise. Mr. Davis, what appears to be "logical" or "illogical" depends upon your point of view, the criteria one uses to frame a particular discussion. For example, if you were a white male southerner at the time who owned slaves, you would be interested in protecting your "property," and you would not be too enthusiastic about the Federal government's plan to free your slaves. However, for the sake of argument, I was the slave owner ...and you were MY slave. You might have a completely different perspective on the issue of what exactly IS property and what ISN'T. If I decided to take your children from you and sell them to my neighbor, you wouldn't be able to complain, because the law had defined you to be chattel. Or, perhaps,if I decided to enjoy the sexual favors of your wife. Again, you would have nothing to say in the matter because I would be the absolute lord and master over the Davis family. Your wife, your children, your lives would be held in my tender hands. Now, being a thinking and reasonable person, I just might make a reasonable assumption that YOU would object to this state of affairs. In fact, it might not be a legal or logical issue to you...it might be an emotional and intensely personal issue to you, would you agree? Of course, I could trot out my Holy Book and explain to your sorry ass that you are chattel...and I could explain the Constitution to your untutored ears.and explain the finer points of the noble English Common Law tradition It would not surprise me that you might be unimpressed with the wisdom of my philsophy. Perhaps, you might even be emotional about it. Regards, Wm On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Howard R. Davis III wrote: -Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Davis and the other southern commanders had taken oaths as soldiers
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/9/99 12:36:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hawk was not put on 'no post' for 'baiting or flaming, but my own personal distaste for bible-thumping slavery apologists. Historical outlooks/discussions buttressed by bibical 'infalliabilty and interpretation" are futile and a waste of time. MHO I agree with all that you state. Hawk causes my hair to rise straight up, the man is more than a little wrong headed. However, variety in opinion is a good thing because it forces some of us to clearly state why we are opposed to that which is anathema to us. If you don't push Hawk, he remains fairly courteous. I wish to add my voice to Tunstall and Shrum in suggesting that although Hawk's temporary (?) exile was probably a good thing for him, it will be good for all of us if he is now let back in. CTRL is a marvelous forum, maintained at no small price by RoadsEnd. One hears (ok, reads) things here that are essentially forbidden in the mainstream media. I understand that folks like the butterfly should be given the boot because they are incoherent and obviously insane. Hawk has his head on backward but he will state chapter and verse for his opinions (thereby revealing that civilization requires more than "just the facts, mam"). In his own way he makes us think anew and thus adds to the CTRL goal of freeing through the truth. Jerry DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: Geeshh you had me worried there, that you weren't who you are, and Hawk isn't who he is, and I was even beginning to wonder if I was who I am.I was beginning to sense a conspiracy of our identities being taken away...oh, well...I am glad you cleared that all up for me. - What constitutes "baiting"? While I've subscribed to the list, I've read posts attacking Jews, minorities, and "liberals." Plus, all of the vile and scurrilous posts about the President and Hillary. In addition, I've read posts that have targeted the poor, welfare recipients, and Native Americans. Not to mention the many posts attacking feminists or women in general. Plus, there are the many strange posts defending slavery. I have responded to these many attacks in as courteous a manner as possible. Barb Witt, who does not share my views on many issues, has pointed out that I have tried to be fair and polite to those who I disagree with. I don't think I've "baited" anyone. If anything, I have been "baited" by the neofascists on the list from the outset with snide remarks and ad hominem attacks. I locked horns with Hawk...only to now be accused of being Hawk in disguise!!! Ha ha...go figure! Yes, there is a similarity between the two of us... And I do respect the maneven though I disagree with everything he believes. I've spent my entire life surrounded by people who think like he doesand I think I was making progress towards showing him that liberals and people of color also love their country...also love their kids...also believe in decency, integrity, respect for property...the same things he values I'm not a white middle class American. I didn't go to an elitist school... My father was an alcoholic, parents divorced when I was twelve... I know what it's like to live on the streets and be hungry...how many of you can say the same? Have you ever worked at a factory? washed dishes to eat? worked in construction? ...struggled to survive? Old Hawk and I come from the same low strata. We are the people who follow behind your parade with the shovels. I understand his sense of betrayal and rage. He's my brother.. although I disagree with his views. So...if you dislike my posts...just hit the delete button. On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Jim Norman wrote: -Caveat Lector- May I second the motion. In my opinion, "baiting" took place on both sides and if one goes, they should all go. Jim norman William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Hawk has informed me that he was removed from the list. I would like the listowner to reconsider his or her decision. All of us have been guilty of intemperate remarks from time to time on this list. (myself included.) I'm on the opposite end of the political spectrum from the dread bird, and I didn't find his posts that offensive. I've read some blatantly anti-semitic stuff that was far more offensive, in my opinion, that his posts.. Best wishes, William On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- I think you missed my earlier post. I'm not against the idea of states leaving the Union...per se. In the case of the Civil War, as in most wars, the issues were confused and complex. But I think on the issue of slavery there was no compromise. Mr. Davis, what appears to be "logical" or "illogical" depends upon your point of view, the criteria one uses to frame a particular discussion. For example, if you were a white male southerner at the time who owned slaves, you would be interested in protecting your "property," and you would not be too enthusiastic about the Federal government's plan to free your slaves. However, for the sake of argument, I was the slave owner ...and you were MY slave. You might have a completely different perspective on the issue of what exactly IS property and what ISN'T. If I decided to take your children from you and sell them to my neighbor, you wouldn't be able to complain, because the law had defined you to be chattel. Or, perhaps,if I decided to enjoy the sexual favors of your wife. Again, you would have nothing to say in the matter because I would be the absolute lord and master over the Davis family. Your wife, your children, your lives would be held in my tender hands. Now, being a thinking and reasonable person, I just might make a reasonable assumption that YOU would object to this state of affairs. In fact, it might not be a legal or logical issue to you...it might be an emotional and intensely personal issue to you, would you agree? Of course, I could trot out my Holy Book and explain to your sorry ass that you are chattel...and I could explain the Constitution to your untutored ears.and explain the finer points of the noble English Common
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- what is this..I don't understand this list, first message I opened, one was accusing one to be another.,,now you are saying it happens all of the time. Is this what this list is about, if so I might as well leave. I want to learn about things not argue if he is really he..if she is he ..if me is me...or whatever. I hope this list is more than that. Carlene "L. Shipton" wrote: -Caveat Lector- We have had this before. Multiple personal conversations (expessally from the same person, on the same thread) without documentation, citations, or URL's! My answer. Substance--Not soapboxing! CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Laura aka The Pied Piper PS I hope this is clear enough for you to understand, this time. -Original Message- From: William Hugh Tunstall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison -Caveat Lector- What constitutes "baiting"? While I've subscribed to the list, I've read posts attacking Jews, minorities, and "liberals." Plus, all of the vile and scurrilous posts about the President and Hillary. In addition, I've read posts that have targeted the poor, welfare recipients, and Native Americans. Not to mention the many posts attacking feminists or women in general. Plus, there are the many strange posts defending slavery. I have responded to these many attacks in as courteous a manner as possible. Barb Witt, who does not share my views on many issues, has pointed out that I have tried to be fair and polite to those who I disagree with. I don't think I've "baited" anyone. If anything, I have been "baited" by the neofascists on the list from the outset with snide remarks and ad hominem attacks. I locked horns with Hawk...only to now be accused of being Hawk in disguise!!! Ha ha...go figure! Yes, there is a similarity between the two of us... And I do respect the maneven though I disagree with everything he believes. I've spent my entire life surrounded by people who think like he doesand I think I was making progress towards showing him that liberals and people of color also love their country...also love their kids...also believe in decency, integrity, respect for property...the same things he values I'm not a white middle class American. I didn't go to an elitist school... My father was an alcoholic, parents divorced when I was twelve... I know what it's like to live on the streets and be hungry...how many of you can say the same? Have you ever worked at a factory? washed dishes to eat? worked in construction? ...struggled to survive? Old Hawk and I come from the same low strata. We are the people who follow behind your parade with the shovels. I understand his sense of betrayal and rage. He's my brother.. although I disagree with his views. So...if you dislike my posts...just hit the delete button. On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Jim Norman wrote: -Caveat Lector- May I second the motion. In my opinion, "baiting" took place on both sides and if one goes, they should all go. Jim norman William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Hawk has informed me that he was removed from the list. I would like the listowner to reconsider his or her decision. All of us have been guilty of intemperate remarks from time to time on this list. (myself included.) I'm on the opposite end of the political spectrum from the dread bird, and I didn't find his posts that offensive. I've read some blatantly anti-semitic stuff that was far more offensive, in my opinion, that his posts.. Best wishes, William On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- I think you missed my earlier post. I'm not against the idea of states leaving the Union...per se. In the case of the Civil War, as in most wars, the issues were confused and complex. But I think on the issue of slavery there was no compromise. Mr. Davis, what appears to be "logical" or "illogical" depends upon your point of view, the criteria one uses to frame a particular discussion. For example, if you were a white male southerner at the time who owned slaves, you would be interested in protecting your "prop
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Howdy all, The utility of CTRL as an informational exchange network starts to diminsh as the volume gets larger. Much of the volume is being created by discussions of asides and other trivial matters. Political and relgious 'stances' discussions are subjects based upon 'personal' 'beliefs' and continual battlement on these subjects deter our study of 'social history and the forces behind the scenes. Yes, there is much to be learn from the discussions, in both understanding others and ourselves, but IMHO, get it the way of 'reading the river' looking at the news and what-not, to see where the hoi polloi is being directed. Much of our newsmedia is directed at 'prodding' the paradigm into the cryptocracy's direction. In other words, some of the news and ' public actions' are for the purpose of validating/massaging the cryptocracy's future plans. Now, I been a-thinkin', Lord have mercy, I can create a list that will recieve all posts from CTRL and will be open for more discussion and chat. What say yea? I will put Hawke back on 'post'. Please, let us all think before we post. As to the question of whether slavery is a sin or not. If you have to ask the question . . . The understanding of 'moral codes' of 3,000 years ago is not the purpose of this list. The cryptocracy doesn't give a damn. Your beliefs are used against you. Stand upon a rock not on the sand. Understand the son of man, not enslavement to 'words'. MHO We shall see. . . Om K I got a life . . . In a message dated 1/9/99 1:30:35 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You own the list. You can do what ever you want with it. However, your banning Hawk from the list without even a warning or and ending to that particular th I will be cut off for writing it. I don't know if your cutting him from the list is because of what you stated or if it was because you did not wish to deal with an arguement you had firmly planted in your mind and did not wish to have shaken. I personally do not recall a passage in the Bible which condemns slavery even though my own code of ethics precludes it. Perhaps a deeper understanding of the moral code of 3,000 years ago and its relationship to that of today would be useful. I don't know. But apparently we aren't going to be discussing it here. best wishes, Howard Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- I will agree, that there is much 'blame' to go around during the recent 'STUPID' bs flamings. And I really don't want to be a recess monitor. Sometimes I figure, if ya dish it out better expect to deal with it. Mostly it is a bore. Hawk was not put on 'no post' for 'baiting or flaming, but my own personal distaste for bible-thumping slavery apologists. Historical outlooks/discussions buttressed by bibical 'infalliabilty and interpretation" are futile and a waste of time. MHO And personally, somekind of hang-up, I guess, but I just don't 'cotton' to racism, bigotry and slavery, 'authorized' by the Bible, Chamber of Commerce or whatever. Excuse me. And besides what/whose sides? There is the cryptocracy. Their helpers and us, hoi polloi. - Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Carlene, Welcome to the list! This is the second time I've subscribed...and you will be exposed to every kind of conceivable opinion here. So, don't leave. But at times, the exchanges become particularly nasty. Just before you posted, one of the list contributors suggested that I (William) might be, in reality, another contributor who goes by the net monicker of Hawk. I assured her that I am not. [William checking himself carefully...no black wings in evidence] This kind of lunacy does occasionally take place here. People are free to sound off about any topic they so desire... And I think it is a good thing. But at times a lynch mob mentality prevailsand some of us want to control the direction/topics/kind of verbal exchanges that take place. I tend to approach the list from the standpoint that one can actually LEARN from people whom one disagrees with. Debate...even if at times it sinks to the level of acrimony is a good thing in a free society...because we are exposed to new ideas...new information...new perspectives on old topics Our list has a number of exceptionally well-informed individuals coming from a variety of different backgrounds who make invaluable contributions to the list serve. Then, there are others who approach the list from a combative perspective They believe that they are the sole possessors and purveyors of "the truth"and it is their mission in life to enlighten the rest of us who have strayed into darkness. But even they make a contribution of sorts. Ordinarily, I don't tend to lock horns with the individuals on the list...but I get tired of their bullying supercilious attitude and feel that I have a duty to give some kind of response. (But if I were to respond to every post...I would never get away from this computer screen.) Best wishes and welcome to the list William On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Carlene M. Wojahn wrote: -Caveat Lector- what is this..I don't understand this list, first message I opened, one was accusing one to be another.,,now you are saying it happens all of the time. Is this what this list is about, if so I might as well leave. I want to learn about things not argue if he is really he..if she is he ..if me is me...or whatever. I hope this list is more than that. Carlene "L. Shipton" wrote: -Caveat Lector- We have had this before. Multiple personal conversations (expessally from the same person, on the same thread) without documentation, citations, or URL's! My answer. Substance--Not soapboxing! CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Laura aka The Pied Piper PS I hope this is clear enough for you to understand, this time. -Original Message- From: William Hugh Tunstall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison -Caveat Lector- What constitutes "baiting"? While I've subscribed to the list, I've read posts attacking Jews, minorities, and "liberals." Plus, all of the vile and scurrilous posts about the President and Hillary. In addition, I've read posts that have targeted the poor, welfare recipients, and Native Americans. Not to mention the many posts attacking feminists or women in general. Plus, there are the many strange posts defending slavery. I have responded to these many attacks in as courteous a manner as possible. Barb Witt, who does not share my views on many issues, has pointed out that I have tried to be fair and polite to those who I disagree with. I don't think I've "baited" anyone. If anything, I have been "baited" by the neofascists on the list from the outset with snide remarks and ad hominem attacks. I locked horns with Hawk...only to now be accused of being Hawk in disguise!!! Ha ha...go figure! Yes, there is a similarity between the two of us... And I do respect the maneven though I disagree with everything he believes. I've spent my entire life surrounded by people who think like he doesand I think I was making progress towards showing him that liberals and people of color also love their country...also love their kids...also believe in decency, integrity, respect for property...the same things he values I'm not a white middle class American. I didn't go to an elitist s
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Thank you for your warm welcome..the first post I opened up was the post accusing you to be someone else. The mentality of that first message got me wondering about this list. But I will stick around and see what I can learn, if anything I can learn from youand others who actually think before they write.. and for those of you wondering if I am someone else from this list check out my isp and you find out that I am not..I really am me. Carlene Carlene William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Carlene, Welcome to the list! This is the second time I've subscribed...and you DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Davis and the other southern commanders had taken oaths as soldiers and as politicians to serve and uphold the Constitution of the United States. They were bound by that oath not to work against the best interests of the nation. *** Yes, and they understood that the Constitution allowed states to seceed from the union. They had also taken an oath to their state govenments which governments preceeded the forming of the union. Lee, for instance, would have been working against the best interests of his country (Virginia) if he had taken command of the federal forces as had been offered. *** By taking up arms against their country, they were committing an act of treason.. Sorry if that offends some of you but that is a fact. Why should it offend me? I had no ancestor in the war except perhaps in the federal army. I have lived in the south for many years, but people still say I don't have an accent. I don't even like football. I just have studied the history and have tried to understand the situation at the time on the basis of law. I don't believe that you have. You are just argueing from an emotional basis and not on any basis of law. My understanding of law has lead me to believe that the southern states had the legal right to leave the union and that they did so lawfully. As I stated, the Supreme Court of the time was probably in agreement with this position. It was Lincoln and others in the northern states who ignored their oathes to the Constitution. That is my opinion from studying the facts. If you have a rational arguement to disprove my opinion, I am open to being corrected, but what you have provided so far has not dealt with the issue in anything but a purely emotional manner. best wishes, Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- I think you missed my earlier post. I'm not against the idea of states leaving the Union...per se. In the case of the Civil War, as in most wars, the issues were confused and complex. But I think on the issue of slavery there was no compromise. Mr. Davis, what appears to be "logical" or "illogical" depends upon your point of view, the criteria one uses to frame a particular discussion. For example, if you were a white male southerner at the time who owned slaves, you would be interested in protecting your "property," and you would not be too enthusiastic about the Federal government's plan to free your slaves. However, for the sake of argument, I was the slave owner ...and you were MY slave. You might have a completely different perspective on the issue of what exactly IS property and what ISN'T. If I decided to take your children from you and sell them to my neighbor, you wouldn't be able to complain, because the law had defined you to be chattel. Or, perhaps,if I decided to enjoy the sexual favors of your wife. Again, you would have nothing to say in the matter because I would be the absolute lord and master over the Davis family. Your wife, your children, your lives would be held in my tender hands. Now, being a thinking and reasonable person, I just might make a reasonable assumption that YOU would object to this state of affairs. In fact, it might not be a legal or logical issue to you...it might be an emotional and intensely personal issue to you, would you agree? Of course, I could trot out my Holy Book and explain to your sorry ass that you are chattel...and I could explain the Constitution to your untutored ears.and explain the finer points of the noble English Common Law tradition It would not surprise me that you might be unimpressed with the wisdom of my philsophy. Perhaps, you might even be emotional about it. Regards, Wm On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Howard R. Davis III wrote: -Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Davis and the other southern commanders had taken oaths as soldiers and as politicians to serve and uphold the Constitution of the United States. They were bound by that oath not to work against the best interests of the nation. *** Yes, and they understood that the Constitution allowed states to seceed from the union. They had also taken an oath to their state govenments which governments preceeded the forming of the union. Lee, for instance, would have been working against the best interests of his country (Virginia) if he had taken command of the federal forces as had been offered. *** By taking up arms against their country, they were committing an act of treason.. Sorry if that offends some of you but that is a fact. Why should it offend me? I had no ancestor in the war except perhaps in the federal army. I have lived in the south for many years, but people still say I don't have an accent. I don't even like football. I just have studied the history and have tried to understand the situation at the time on the basis of law. I don't believe that you have. You are just argueing from an emotional basis and not on any basis of law. My understanding of law has lead me to believe that the southern states had the legal right to leave the union and that they did so lawfully. As I stated, the Supreme Court of the time was probably in agreement with this position. It was Lincoln and others in the northern states who ignored their oathes to the Constitution. That is my opinion from studying the facts. If you have a rational arguement to disprove my opinion, I am open to being corrected, but what you have provided so far has not dealt with the issue in anything but a purely emotional manner. best wishes, Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Hawk has informed me that he was removed from the list. I would like the listowner to reconsider his or her decision. All of us have been guilty of intemperate remarks from time to time on this list. (myself included.) I'm on the opposite end of the political spectrum from the dread bird, and I didn't find his posts that offensive. I've read some blatantly anti-semitic stuff that was far more offensive, in my opinion, that his posts.. Best wishes, William On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- I think you missed my earlier post. I'm not against the idea of states leaving the Union...per se. In the case of the Civil War, as in most wars, the issues were confused and complex. But I think on the issue of slavery there was no compromise. Mr. Davis, what appears to be "logical" or "illogical" depends upon your point of view, the criteria one uses to frame a particular discussion. For example, if you were a white male southerner at the time who owned slaves, you would be interested in protecting your "property," and you would not be too enthusiastic about the Federal government's plan to free your slaves. However, for the sake of argument, I was the slave owner ...and you were MY slave. You might have a completely different perspective on the issue of what exactly IS property and what ISN'T. If I decided to take your children from you and sell them to my neighbor, you wouldn't be able to complain, because the law had defined you to be chattel. Or, perhaps,if I decided to enjoy the sexual favors of your wife. Again, you would have nothing to say in the matter because I would be the absolute lord and master over the Davis family. Your wife, your children, your lives would be held in my tender hands. Now, being a thinking and reasonable person, I just might make a reasonable assumption that YOU would object to this state of affairs. In fact, it might not be a legal or logical issue to you...it might be an emotional and intensely personal issue to you, would you agree? Of course, I could trot out my Holy Book and explain to your sorry ass that you are chattel...and I could explain the Constitution to your untutored ears.and explain the finer points of the noble English Common Law tradition It would not surprise me that you might be unimpressed with the wisdom of my philsophy. Perhaps, you might even be emotional about it. Regards, Wm On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Howard R. Davis III wrote: -Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Davis and the other southern commanders had taken oaths as soldiers and as politicians to serve and uphold the Constitution of the United States. They were bound by that oath not to work against the best interests of the nation. *** Yes, and they understood that the Constitution allowed states to seceed from the union. They had also taken an oath to their state govenments which governments preceeded the forming of the union. Lee, for instance, would have been working against the best interests of his country (Virginia) if he had taken command of the federal forces as had been offered. *** By taking up arms against their country, they were committing an act of treason.. Sorry if that offends some of you but that is a fact. Why should it offend me? I had no ancestor in the war except perhaps in the federal army. I have lived in the south for many years, but people still say I don't have an accent. I don't even like football. I just have studied the history and have tried to understand the situation at the time on the basis of law. I don't believe that you have. You are just argueing from an emotional basis and not on any basis of law. My understanding of law has lead me to believe that the southern states had the legal right to leave the union and that they did so lawfully. As I stated, the Supreme Court of the time was probably in agreement with this position. It was Lincoln and others in the northern states who ignored their oathes to the Constitution. That is my opinion from studying the facts. If you have a rational arguement to disprove my opinion, I am open to being corrected, but what you have provided so far has not dealt with the issue in anything but a purely emotional manner. best wishes, Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- At 01:44 PM 1/8/99 -0600, you wrote: -Caveat Lector- Hawk has informed me that he was removed from the list. I would like the listowner to reconsider his or her decision. All of us have been guilty of intemperate remarks from time to time on this list. (myself included.) I'm on the opposite end of the political spectrum from the dread bird, and I didn't find his posts that offensive. I've read some blatantly anti-semitic stuff that was far more offensive, in my opinion, that his posts.. Best wishes, William Hugh, although I often disagree with your views, I respect your scholarship, civility, lack of insecurity, and tolerance. Your ability to engage in a lively exchange without resorting to the arrogant, ill-mannered and unlearned tactics of the core group that is allowed to control this list is refreshing. You are a gentleman. I agree that Hawk should be allowed to stay, as should anyone else who is inclined. It really shouldn't matter if some persons find any number of posts offensive - isn't that "diversity"? Theory is obviously more palatable than the real deal for some persons. Regards, Barb DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/8/99 1:16:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My understanding of law has lead me to believe that the southern states had the legal right to leave the union and that they did so lawfully. As I stated, the Supreme Court of the time was probably in agreement with this position. It was Lincoln and others in the northern states who ignored their oathes to the Constitution. Suppose that you are quite correct in saying that Jefferson Davis, Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. etc. were strictly legal. What you are missing is that more is involved with every man's actions than legality, or for that matter, profit. These men in high leadership positions knew this. What motivated them. They did not perform an act merely because it was legal, i.e. they did not act arbitrarily. They joined in the Confederacy because it stood for their way of seeing, their way of living. That way was based upon slavery. The Southern leadership could not stay in the Union without accepting a gradual change over in the dirty little condition that made their way possible. The North was not going to accept additional slave states and the opposition to slavery was growing. It was much like those doors in Deuteronomy, one leads to life and one leads to death. The strange thing is that the doors are very well marked. No mistake is possible. Many white people in the South chose life but most of the leaders chose death. To be sure, choosing life is emotional; that's because our deepest values are emotional issues with us. The sin of keeping people enslaved is emotional. The slavers may taunt those who vote for freedom as being emotional but those who would even defend slavery, much less practice it, are also being emotional. Part of their dysfunction is that they must pretend to a strange machismo of the psyche. Incidentally, in an earlier posting someone referred to the reluctance of some of the ex-slaves to their new situation and even persistent opinion that the old slave times were preferable. It was sort of like the Israelis coming out of the land of fleshpots. Some weren't so sure. Many of the slaves of Dixie were dismissed from the plantations at war's end because it simply was not profitable for the planters to keep them on. These, now vagabonds, newly freed illiterate blacks lined the roads in their trek north to find work. They had only the clothes on their backs (few received 40 and a mule). Some died on the way but others made it to partly fuel the latter part of the industrialization of America. Most freed slaves far preferred their freedom but a few never obtained a decent life and actually remembered their slavery as a better time. Even with the night patrols, the removal of thumbs for the crime of learning to read, the forbiddance of prayer, and the merciless beatings when they took a bit of extra nourishment, the commonplace forcible sex by massah and supervisors of the slave women and, if these times are any guide, of boys and girls as well, the fleshpots glowed in their remembrance. Think of the filthy crimes committed today for those fleshpots, the dismemberment of companies along with massive disruption in lives, the unnecessary wars in Vietnam, Panama, the Gulf, Grenada, Somalia. Freedom came in second when we overthrew democracies in Iran, Guatemala, Chile and installed criminal governments. Man, how do we free ourselves of this sort of blindness? Jerry DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Hawk wrote: FROM THE DIXIEDAYS-L MAILING LIST. Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My understanding of law has lead me to believe that the southern states had the legal right to leave the union and that they did so lawfully. As I stated, the Supreme Court of the time was probably in agreement with this position. It was Lincoln and others in the northern states who ignored their oathes to the Constitution. That is my understanding as well, I have been doing a lot of research concerning this and I have some questions Why did states like Maine, New York, even Wisconsin, think they had the right to secede ? Virginia was one state ..yet part of that state broke away and became another, how can this happen if secession is not constitutional ? Why did the Southron states have to reapply for admission into statehood ? When the 14th amendment was being voted on ...how come they found out for a brief period they were non-states and could not vote on it ? Just a few questions What motivated them. They did not perform an act merely because it was legal, i.e. they did not act arbitrarily. --No it wasn't illegal, there was talk about the northern states doing..seceding as well. They joined in the Confederacy because it stood for their way of seeing, their way of living. That way was based upon slavery. The Southern leadership could not stay in the Union without accepting a gradual change over in the dirty little condition that made their way possible. No it was more based on states rights, slavery would of disappeared on its on with the westward movement..so the last sentence above is incorrect. The North was not going to accept additional slave states and the opposition to slavery was growing. -But who had sold the slaves to the South ? Carlene M. Wojahn Yep...that is still my name..I am still no one else. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: When the southern military commanders took up arms against their government...that was a TREASONOUS act in my book. *** Jefferson Davis spent several years in prison after the war begging to be released or put on trial for treason. I think it was seven years before he was released without a trial. Why was he never tried? It is believed that it was well known that the Supreme Court would have thrown out a conviction. This would have been untenable in the North since then there would have had to be an acknowledgemnt that the southern states had had the right to end their ties to the union. Virginia had even in their acceptance of the Constitution and the creation of the union had stated that they were free to leave the union if they later desired. They were accepted into the union on that basis and all other states should legally have been in the same position. All of the states which severed their ties with the union did so in a legal manner. Though I completely agree with you that slavery is immoral and should never have been permitted, as I have stated before, the "Civil War" was not fought over slavery. That was the smokescreen that was used to justify a war of agression whose purpose was to turn free states into colonies of a federal government. The southern states have suffered for over a century as a result. The Union was in the right to put an end to slavery. The South was in the wrong. The issue has been decided. Slavery was wrong. There is no disagreement from me about that. (Though I would not be surprized if the slaves were not economically better off during the period prior to the "Civil War" then afterward. The destruction of the war and the subsequent treatment of the south created an economic situation which was hard for both races). However, when the southern states entered the union they agreed to the creation of a federal government with limited powers. That federal government was not given the power to end slavery. Can you show me anywhere in the Constitution where the federal government was given this power? Legally the only way was through amendment. This was the only lawful way for the federal government to end it. However, the states also could have individually ended the practice within its area. Many southerners were in favor of this. Many had already freed their slaves and the economic justification of slavery was diminishing. As I have stated before, I believe that slavery would have ended in the south within twenty or thirty years if it had been left to the states. I believe that this would have been preferable also because I believe that it was the moral obligation of the people of these states to end it. If this had been the case, I believe that the relationship between the races in both the south and the north would have improved at a much faster pace. best wishes, Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Hawk wrote: -Caveat Lector- William... I am having to post this directly to you because I quickly use up my alloted 7 posts per day. William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Hawk, Thank you for serving our country. As a veteran, you put your life on the line for the country and that is to be respected. That's why I don't quite understand your political position. The fact that I "put my life on the line" is precisely what started me on the road to my political position. I was in the USAF for almost seven years as a professional military officer and aviator. During three of those years, I was involved in what later became known as the "Delta Force," but which then was "Blue Triangle" and a couple of other secretive names. As such, I engaged in numerous "informal" wars, insurrections, and general mayhem for the govm't of the U.S. -- often not even allowed to wear the uniform (we called these "T-shirt and blue-jean missions). I was also in VietNam quite a bit, before the conflict became a "war." In all of those missions, we were directly involved on the "wrong" side, or were sticking our noses into other peoples' affairs, generally helping some dictatorial govm't obtain or maintain its harsh control over the populace. Then, for three more years, I was directly involved in intelligence gathering operations. For three years, every morning, I saw "raw intelligence" -- information that had not been "laundered" for public consumption. Not one time -- and I mean not even ONCE -- did the truth about what was going on reach the average American. We were lied to on a continual basis, and are being lied to at the present time. I was trained in the process of developing "cover stories" about things that happened, and I can spot the various techniques because they are still in use today. In short, I distrust our govm't precisely because I know it to be a lying and manipulative government that has been and still is involved in an active effort to deny or reduce the freedom of everyone here and abroad. So, you see, neither I nor anyone else "in the service of this country" is responsible for the freedom that I do enjoy, and cerainly not for the freedom of people in other countries. This may have come as a shock to you, but there were many people around who knew what the imperialist government was doing. And why. It seems that you haven't yet learned why the government does what it does and why it must do it all secretly. I'll give you a hint, it's not because they are democratically controlled by us. How many innocent people did you kill even knowing the false pretenses you were fighting under? Why should you not be considered a war criminal? This is not a rhetorical question. snip I do not say that "owning a human being is a humane idea" -- but neither is it an inhumane act. Anyone who understands the bible (which I allow as the only reliable source of determining "good" and "evil"), should quickly pick up on the idea that God does not consider the institution of slavery as evil. And if God doesn't consider it evil, then I certainly am not going to condemn HIM for His position on it. It is clear from the Bible that involuntary servitude is not preferable in many cases, but it is not condemned. It is the abuse of the relationship that is condemned. Why am I not surprised that you justify slavery on the basis of this superstitious nonsense? Your slaver ancestors used it for the same purpose. snip Same here... Some of my ancestors lived in S. Carolina. They were a large and prosperous family, and when the Union army came through, they burned 30 of the Willis plantations to the ground, leaving only one standing, and it had been set fire to. Gee that's too bad. War is heck. I'll bet the slaves just hated to leave your wonderful family. snip But slavery was an evil institution. That is merely your opinion, and it does not comport with the Bible. You are welcome to it, and you are certainly not alone in that opinion. But I base my criteria on "stronger stuff" than personal opinion. By the way, at one time I would have agreed with you. I was "compelled" to study slavery in order to support my position that it was evil, but my study resulted in forcing me to reject my initial beliefs concerning it. As you may have gathered, I am VERY libertarian in my political philosophy. As a libertarian, I would have to reject slavery, either an an owner or a slave. But as a Christian, I cannot condemn it. I don't know dude...you sound like one confused puppy to me. ...and it brutalized both the slaves AND their owners. pure conjecture, and I disagree with your position on that. In order to justify the system, white Southerners had to practice a form of denial. No... All they had to do was adhere to the Bible. As such, it is not "a form of denial." In order to be an abolitionist,
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/6/99 4:04:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyone who understands the bible (which I allow as the only reliable source of determining "good" and "evil"), should quickly pick up on the idea that God does not consider the institution of slavery as evil. And if God doesn't consider it evil, then I certainly am not going to condemn HIM for His position on it. It is clear from the Bible that involuntary servitude is not preferable in many cases, but it is not condemned. The Fundamentalist's bible says "Holy Bible" on the front cover. Many folks don't know that on the back cover, in invisible ink, it says "Unholy Babble." The Fundamentalists read the unholy babble. The unholy babble is read backwards and many confused conclusions are drawn from it. The bible is practically a paean to freedom. Look up "freedom" and "liberty" in a concordance and you will be drowned in references. No, my friend, the verses do not exalt slavery or bondage but freedom. Look up slavery and bondage and the references, with one exception, speak disparagingly and sometimes alarmingly of these. The exception is that we are urged to be slaves or bondsmen to God so that we never think of ourselves as in servitude to others. My God, man, wake up! You are living in a delusionary world. Seek help. Save yourself. Jerry DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] TREASON [was: Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison]
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Davis and the other southern commanders had taken oaths as soldiers and as politicians to serve and uphold the Constitution of the United States. They were bound by that oath not to work against the best interests of the nation. By taking up arms against their country, they were committing an act of treason.. Mr. Tunstall, Sir, The Confederates did NOT take up arms against THEIR country, rather took up arms to fight against an enemy who invaded their COUNTRY. They did not view the *collective Union of States* as their COUNTRY, rather the State in which they lived was what they considered their COUNTRY, Sir. For exampleWhen General Lee tendered his resignation as an officer in the Union military in April of '61, he did so because he said he could not draw his sword against his COUNTRY, meaning Virginia, and had he remained in the Union military, knowing that serving in the Union military would be considered TREASONOUS since his COUNTRY of Virginia was no longer a part of the Union for his COUNTRY, Virginia had divorced herself from the Union, formed her own government, joined a partnership of other COUNTRIES who had formed a Confederacy. The Confederates no more committed the act of treason by divorcing the Union, than would a woman commit the act of treason should she divorce her husband who had usurped her God given rights, or visa versa. The Southron COUNTRIES that divorced themselves from the despot did so peacefully. But then, the Union invaded, fought them, tried to destroy their people, conquered them, and ever since then the Union of States has illegally occupied these COUNTRIES, denying them sovereignty for all these years. Sorry if that offends some of you but that is a fact. No Sirrespectfully I must disagree with youit is NOT a FACT. Remember, General Grant, who probably more than anyone, knew and respected his southern counterparts (hell...he had served with almost all of them during the Mexican-American war), was not sentimental about it. If you take up arms against your government, you are guilty of treason. TRUE, Sirand why the Confederates took up arms to defend THEIR country against an invading enemy, and why I hail them as heroes, and pay homage to the dear souls for their noble deedsmany of whom were my own peoplemy family of yesteryear whose blood courses through my veins. If my son or daughter is wearing a uniform of the United States government, and he encounters some treasonous, murderous son of a bitch who believes that he is serving God or Dixie or the Devil-himself by pointing a gun at him or herI would advise my son or daughter to blow that son of a bitch away without a moment's hesitation. That is your right, Sir to advice your children in such a way if you so choose. Now, personally, I'm not against the idea of a state removing itself from the Union (if it could be done peacefully and without bloodshed...property rights and civil liberties respected, etc. Go for it). But the last time I checked, more people are trying to get into the country than are trying to get out. I love America--New England, the Midwest,the West--hell yes, Dixie, too. Personally, I don't give a damn whether you are white, black,brown, southern, northern, Christian, Jew or atheist...whether you are male or female..rich or poor...if you live in a trailer or a million dollar house.. if you've only lived in this country for a year...or if you can boast of Revolutionary War ancestors...you are an American; and you are my brother or sister. We are a people, a nation, a society, a country. First I am a child of Godsecondly I am a South Carolinianthirdly I am an American. May God's blessings be upon you, Sir.. Linda of the Palmetto State U.S. Occupied And if you get into trouble in some damned forsaken corner of the globe, you can count on me or someone like me ( Americans come in a variety of different colors, sizes and shapes) to help you out. And I don't care about the size of your bank account, whether you are right or not right with the Creator, your political party, your ethnicity, your color or however you want to define yourself. When you are overseas and you are in a tight spot..these differences aren't so important. Best wishes, William On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, MY HEART'S IN DIXIE! wrote: -Caveat Lector- Howard R. Davis III wrote: -Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: When the southern military commanders took up arms against their government...that was a TREASONOUS act in my book. *** Jefferson Davis spent several years in prison after the war begging to be released or put on trial for treason. I think it was seven years before he was released without a trial. Why was he never tried? It is believed that it was well known that the Supreme Court would have thrown out a
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- I lived overseas, Hawk. (Mexico) I've had to come to the aid of Americans stranded down there..and in one case, they were tourists about to be jumped by the locals. I speak Spanish and with my Native American blood gives me a Hispanic look...so I can easily pass as Mexican down there... although I'm over six feet inches tall Americans should stay the hell out of these places..but they still wonder into them without realizing that not everyone is in love with them. As far as shooting a representative of the government, I don't think that's a good idea... I don't think I would want my kids to be doing hard time or to be six feet under... Re: the south. I'm all for the idea of letting them separate from themselves from the US. Great idea. Re: oaths. There is a question about doing the honorable thing. If you put on the uniform of your country, you have committed yourself to serve under its commander It doesn't matter whether or not the guy is a son of a bitch, a born-again Christian, of a political party that you approve of...is sitting in the Oval Office with a woman on his knee, smoking an illegal drug. You follow orders and go where they send you and do your duty. If you don't like it, take off the uniform..and join another army. Re: Grant's view on slavery...A lot of the Union soldiers/commanders/politicians had no special love for the idea of racial equality, abolition of slavery, etc. so what. They did their duty which involved putting an end to the rebellion. As I stated earlier, I think states do have the right to remove themselves from the Union.. Perhaps, California will go back to Mexico...Florida to Cuba ...personally, I'm not against whatever the people in the state decide on... If they want to leave the US...that's fine by me. Regards, Wm On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: William Hugh Tunstall wrote: Davis and the other southern commanders had taken oaths as soldiers and as politicians to serve and uphold the Constitution of the United States. They were bound by that oath not to work against the best interests of the nation. Were these, as you suggest, "life-time oaths," or oaths as officers in the Army or employees of the govm't? Having once served in the United States Air Force, am I forever bound by the oath I took when I was commissioned, or did my obligation to that oath -- as an officer -- end when I resigned my commission? As an employee wherever you work, there is at least an implied duty to submit to the demands of your employer... Does that obligation extend beyond your term of employment? When one takes an oath as a juror, is he bound to that oath even after being dismissed? By taking up arms against their country, they were committing an act of treason.. They didn't take up arms against their country... In Lee's case, you may recall, he resigned his commission RATHER THAN take up arms against his country, which was Virginia. Sorry if that offends some of you but that is a fact. You need to brush up on your facts... What you are saying is not true. Remember, General Grant, who probably more than anyone, knew and respected his southern counterparts (hell...he had served with almost all of them during the Mexican-American war), was not sentimental about it. However, General Grant made the statement, while serving as a general in the United States Army, then at war with the Confederate States of America, "If I thought this war was about abolishing slavery, I would resign my commission and offer my sword and my services to the Confederacy." You're right... He wasn't a sentimentalist. If you take up arms against your government, you are guilty of treason. Sometimes... However, those Confederates did not take up arms against THEIR government, but against a hostile nation bent on destroying their government. If my son or daughter is wearing a uniform of the United States government, and he encounters some treasonous, murderous son of a bitch who believes that he is serving God or Dixie or the Devil-himself by pointing a gun at him or herI would advise my son or daughter to blow that son of a bitch away without a moment's hesitation. Quite so... If my son or daughter encountered a son-of-a-bitch who was wearing the uniform of the United States, and was bent on their destruction, I would advise them to blow him away... The uniform be-damned. Now, personally, I'm not against the idea of a state removing itself from the Union (if it could be done peacefully and without bloodshed...property rights and civil liberties respected, etc. Go for it). That is precisely what each of the states that formed the Confederacy did. Personally, I don't give a damn whether you are white, black,brown, southern, northern, Christian, Jew or atheist...whether you are male or female..rich or poor...if you live in a trailer or a million dollar house.. if you've only
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- In general, I'm opposed to the use of force against people. [snip] , but I think most of us have to recognize that until there is some major transformation of human nature and human society, "power" or force must be used in order to maintain order within a civil society. I disagree that "force" must be used "in order to maintain order..." Force should only be used to punish crimes that have been committed. The threat of punishment AFTER a crime is committed may be the coercion you speak of. Again, God said, "Because judgment against *an evil work* is NOT inflicted *swiftly*, therefore the hearts of the sons of men are fully set in them to do evil." The American federal government during the 1860s was not the superpower state of today One of the tragedies of the period was that once having "freed" the slaves, the Federal government found itself not having either the will nor the wherewithal to protect and to insure the civil liberties of black Americans. The North was eager to address the "slave issue," but caved in to their truer natures when it came to addressing the Negro issue. Not having a way of supporting themselves, many of the former slaves understandably looked to their former masters for guidance and support in their new status. Keep in mind that *capital* is a requirement to start up maintain an orderly and efficient business. There were basically only two forms of capital left in the South after the war... (1)Land, and (2) the inherent "capital" of the labor of the former slaves... These were combined largely in the form of "share-cropping," which was not a new idea at all, and had been widely in use by slaves and landowners. Most plantations had land set aside for the slaves in which they could conduct their own personal farming operations, and the proceeds were used either directly or sold for their personal benefit. (See "Time on the Cross" for a larger discourse on this.) Clearly, the Federal government had a responsibility to these individuals to help them to become productive members of a society for which they were ill prepared to enter... That isn't so "clear" to me Most slaves knew how to work, and many of them had skills such as blacksmithing, brick-laying, and even engineering in some cases. Lacking the funds/political support/a workable plan, the US government more or less abandoned these individuals to the tender mercies of a market economy that the newly freed slaves didn't understand... However, their employers understood it... It isn't likely that ANY peasant working class people "understood the market economy" any better... You work, you get paid, you spend your money... It isn't a difficult concept. Plus, look at the condition of southern agriculture after the Civil War...not a happy picture Of course, some states fared better than others..but my point is that the concept of freedom is a tricky one. Absolutely... people tend to develop a "slave mentality" when the personal result of their labor (benefits to them) are not proportional to the effort expended... That is why socialism does NOT work... It fosters a "slave mentality." Are you truly "free" if you are illiterate, without marketable skills,lacking capital in a society that considers you to be less than human? No you aren't... But then, NO ONE is "truly free," if by that you mean "has license to do whatever-in-the-hell he wants to do." The factory workers in the northeast and in Europe were certainly not "free." In fact, their lives were considerably "less free" in terms of actual options and benefits than were Negro slaves... who had "cradle to grave" benefits, far less rigorous work schedules, and "employers" who had a direct interest in their health and well-being. The differences in living conditions between the average slave-owner and his slaves was not as great as the living conditions of the great northern industrialists and their "wage-slaves." Of course there were exceptions in both areas, but I speak in terms of "general conditions." The prevailing social philosophy of the time--"root, hog or die"--might have been workable IF the former slaves would have had the wherewithal to support themselves (land,tools,food,shelter,etc)...instead, they found themselves having to sell what little skills they possessed in an economy that had been devastated by war. They were no different in that aspect than anyone else... Everyone should be expected to "sell their skills" in the economy. Slaves generally had skills in agriculture, house-keeping, animal husbandry, and so forth, but many also had "trade skills" ... Some became sharecroppers, others became employees, and some became entrepreneurs. The federal government just wanted the problem to go away White Americans were more interested in getting on with their own lives...putting an end to the enmity against the former
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Continuing discussion: This is my rant for the evening: In order to prosper in a capitalist society you need capital in one form or another. You would agree? The individual who has capital (money, land, skills, political connections, education, membership in a politically powerful organization of one kind or another) has advantages over the lone individual. If your name is Mellon, or Rockefeller or Bush or Harriman--you are beginning life with any number of advantages that you can capitalize on and benefit from. Just by virtue of being born into a particular family, if your surname is the "right" one, doors open for you. You can enjoy the benefit of any number of different unofficial affirmative action programs. These are all voluntary, of course, but they have always played an instrumental role in determining one's life prospects. Now, you can, of course, "rise" on the basis of your own skills...but sooner or later, as an individual you will have to form alliances of one kind or another with those who can benefit you.. (Lawyers, business consultants, local political bosses, key members in the particular guild or profession you're entering...who hold pivotal positions in these non-government bureaucracies... they determine who will be promoted...who will move higher in the organization and who will stay behind.) Initiative, hard work, integrity, and basic competency are NOT necessarily rewarded. In addition to having the right stuff, it also pays to have the right look...be the right color, be the right gender, fit the corporate image, know the right people. Just basic integrity and competency is not enough. You must learn to master the codes (stated and unstated rules) that govern the organization. Who rises and who falls in terms of income, social prestige, etc. is not necessarily determined on the basis of hard work and loyalty to the company. Some firms are operated like Mafioso "familias." They have legal activities (while at the same time, they engage in illegal/criminal activities) The sons and daughters of the owners usually inherit these operations, but the businesses survive despite the incompetence and stupidity of the second, third and fourth generations.. In a capitalist system, you can hire competent people to run a business, while you sit back on your rear end and rake in the profits. That is the beauty of our sytem. By being in a favored SOCIAL position, you can be in a favored economic position. Thus, a mediocre talent like Forbes can run for the presidency and be taken seriously...why because his name is Forbes..and he has the money to do so. Forbes is a member of the aristocracy of sperm. He had the "right" daddy. Now, tell a young black man whose mom has to scrub toilets for a living to put food on the table, whose mother has spent her life loving Jesus, how the American system rewards virtue, hard work, thrift and industry. Let's not make our hypothetical young person black...what if he's a poor white boy from Appalachia.. He sure as hell is NOT going to go to Princeton (like Forbes), nor is he going to be a member of the Skull and Bones Society (like Bush) He has to "put it together"...learn how to fend for himself (like we all do). but some of us have had a helluva lot of help along the way...mentors, coaches, religious leaders, teachers, family friends, friends of friends, moms. maybe Mom and Dad did stay together and teach you some basic skills... Thanks to being born to the right parents, you've learned to love books and music. You have been blessed with having love in the home... not a drug addict for a mom or fatherNow, of course, we will agree that there many people who pull themselves up by their bootstraps...who are born in hellholes of poverty and abuse...and they become productive members of society. But there are always exceptions.. I want a truly level playing field I don't for one minute believe that economics determines one's character... that money and materialism is everything...but I believe we need to have a principle of fairness applied here. If you are willing to work hard and play by the rules, you need to be rewarded.. Keeping this class system going is destructive for all of us. Every day I see a lot snot-nosed privileged white kids who have had all of the privileges of living in this societyand they are people who don't give a flying about anything except themselves. And thanks to our class system...these little socially irresonsible jerks are going to be ushered into positions of responsibility in a few short years to be sending someone else's son or daughter off to war overseas to protect their investments... I think we need a different kind of America.. We need responsibility... and we need to become a society again... to pull together to make this country a better place.. On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector-
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/5/99 9:17:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh no, I killed a rat in my house the other day. Am I going to go to hell? best wishes, Howard Davis Maybe you are. Prudy DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Re: "sending kids off to war." Your caustic comment notwithstanding, you nor I wouldn't be enjoying the freedoms we do have, if it wasn't for the sacrifice of others... Perhaps, they were "stupid" to fight for this country. I don't think so. They, and I was one of "them", did not do anything that promoted freedom in this country. We killed folks IN THEIR COUNTRY. I've been in five wars (OK, some were small wars, but it was wholesale killing non-the-less) in "my country's" uniform. And in NOT A SINGLE CASE was this country's "freedom" threatened. The last American soldiers to fight for "freedom" were Confederate soldiers. Since then, Amercian soldiers truly have fought gallantly... but they were not fighting for American freedom. WWII was fought "to make the world safe for communism." The outcome -- bottom line -- of that conflict was two-thirds of the world's population falling under communism. Re: "paying bills." People have been paying YOUR bill for a long time. They paid at Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Omaha, and a helluva lot of other places.. That's my point. I didn't have any bills to pay in Tarawa, Iwo Jima, etc so you OWE something to this country... I don't owe anything to anyone for going half way around the world to kill people who were not a threat to me. Why is that so difficult a concept to understand? A lot of Americans have paid the price so that you can have your miserable little life. My "miserable little life?" Pardner, I myself have "paid the price" It is absurd for anyone to say that Americans sent to kill people in their own country "paid the price" so I could have ANY kind of life. You should be proud to be a citizen...greatful to have the money to pay. So the next time some mugger pokes a gun in my face he should tell me, "You should be proud to be an American, and grateful that you have money for me to take." After all, he's taking my money so he can maintain his lifestyle of robbing and killing other people... Or maybe it's time for you to move to the Cayman Islands or some taxhaven with others of your ilk. My ilk? Maybe its time for "others of my ilk" to sack up people "of your ilk" and ship THEM somewhere so we can live our lives without deadbeats robbing us of the fruit of our labor. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William... I am having to post this directly to you because I quickly use up my alloted 7 posts per day. William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Hawk, Thank you for serving our country. As a veteran, you put your life on the line for the country and that is to be respected. That's why I don't quite understand your political position. The fact that I "put my life on the line" is precisely what started me on the road to my political position. I was in the USAF for almost seven years as a professional military officer and aviator. During three of those years, I was involved in what later became known as the "Delta Force," but which then was "Blue Triangle" and a couple of other secretive names. As such, I engaged in numerous "informal" wars, insurrections, and general mayhem for the govm't of the U.S. -- often not even allowed to wear the uniform (we called these "T-shirt and blue-jean missions). I was also in VietNam quite a bit, before the conflict became a "war." In all of those missions, we were directly involved on the "wrong" side, or were sticking our noses into other peoples' affairs, generally helping some dictatorial govm't obtain or maintain its harsh control over the populace. Then, for three more years, I was directly involved in intelligence gathering operations. For three years, every morning, I saw "raw intelligence" -- information that had not been "laundered" for public consumption. Not one time -- and I mean not even ONCE -- did the truth about what was going on reach the average American. We were lied to on a continual basis, and are being lied to at the present time. I was trained in the process of developing "cover stories" about things that happened, and I can spot the various techniques because they are still in use today. In short, I distrust our govm't precisely because I know it to be a lying and manipulative government that has been and still is involved in an active effort to deny or reduce the freedom of everyone here and abroad. So, you see, neither I nor anyone else "in the service of this country" is responsible for the freedom that I do enjoy, and cerainly not for the freedom of people in other countries. I'm descended from people who owned slaves. If you want to look in the historical records of the state of North Carolina, you will find that twenty-two members of my family fought FOR the Confederacy. They were not "bad" people...they thought they were fighting for their friends and neighbors...defending their "southern way of life," a way of life that involved the enslavement of human beings... I agree with you about what they were fighting for. My grandfather, born in 1886, would tell me stories about how much our family loved their slaves..how well they treated them, etc. My grandfather wasn't deliberately lying... sure, my family loved the slaves. They were valuable property. That is not the only reason the loved their slaves. Surely you don't deny that close personal bonds were often deverloped between slaves and the family that owned them... It is well documented. And they treated them humanely (if one can argue that owning a human being is a humane idea). I do not say that "owning a human being is a humane idea" -- but neither is it an inhumane act. Anyone who understands the bible (which I allow as the only reliable source of determining "good" and "evil"), should quickly pick up on the idea that God does not consider the institution of slavery as evil. And if God doesn't consider it evil, then I certainly am not going to condemn HIM for His position on it. It is clear from the Bible that involuntary servitude is not preferable in many cases, but it is not condemned. It is the abuse of the relationship that is condemned. They didn't separate family members... I still have visions of my grandfather, old H.B., sitting in his chair, puffing on his cigar, telling me about how much the family lived their "." My grandfather was a product of his generation. Who isn't? And,for your information, the family had stories of the damned Yankees who came into North Carolina, seizing the food and valuables of everyone. In order to save their smoked hams, the family placed discolored flour on the cuts of meat, hoping that the Yankees would think them poisoned. I was raised on Civil War stories and states rights arguments. Same here... Some of my ancestors lived in S. Carolina. They were a large and prosperous family, and when the Union army came through, they burned 30 of the Willis plantations to the ground, leaving only one standing, and it had been set fire to. Most white southerners were too poor to own slaves. Slavery was a complex institution--the large operations in the Deep South (cotton) were run differently from the the tobacco plantations of the border states (Ky, Tenn, NC and Virginia)... As were the operations in Louisiana that
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/6/99 10:18:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The last American soldiers to fight for "freedom" were Confederate soldiers. You're just confused. The Confederate soldiers were fighting for slavery. Some understood this and other, like yourself, didn't. The South was prostrate before evil. Say it with me, "Thank you, God, for Lincoln and thank you for the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s and thank you, Jesus, that at the price of much blood, freedom has won the day for the slaves and for the South." Jerry DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
Curious, Environmental groups do not say that you have to quit eating meat. Think of Coustou. All they say is that we should take care of our food supply. They do not say that you can not train and ride a horse or train and show or shoot over a dog. They do think that you should do it without starving a animal. Compare the life of a show horse or a show dog OR heaven forbid even a chinchilla that was bred for it's fur. Let's take the horse or dog first well fed, well groomed, cared for in many ways. Overall on average they are taken care of much better that the normal family dog. Granted there is the risk of injury, that is true in human athletes as well. The other thing that I have heard of, at times is a great accumulation of animals (puppy mill), these are taken out - how many family pets have had puppies and those puppies dropped off at the human society or worse at the side of the road - these are not heard of as the animals slowly starve or join into packs and hunt through the city or country until they have to be killed. The show animal - worth a lot. The family dog many times ends up at the pound when they are no longer cute babies or when the family can not keep them due to economics or moving. The chinchilla and along with it chickens and any other animal bred for use are covered in the next section. Why would people want to protest the use these animals are put to? The farmer, the (previous) chinchilla breeder, the horse breeder, the dog breeder, the person showing in 4H and anyone else that looks for health will see things happening in animals faster than humans. Getting people mad at ecologists - so does the farmer notice the fact that there does not seem to be the diversity of animals (pests) around the farm, do people notice that there are less road kills, does the homeowner notice that there seems to be fewer songbirds. Not until the pesticides, herbicides and the other chemicals start effecting the people that use them, or pay for others to use these pesticides or herbicides (on their land) and then have a reaction. Male fish are producing eggs in their testes in the UK, the reptiles in the everglades have smaller male genitalia and there is a lot of mutations in the frogs that do manage to make it past the tadpole stage. (SPECULATION) What do (some of) the (human) males that know about this do? They eat well, stay away from these chemicals (as much as possible) and see if they can get some female pregnant to see if they have sperm or eggs in their testes and fuss if she gets a abortion before they can be sure that they will actually have a viable child. One last thing. Do you know what a set of ovaries look like that have just released a egg? The egg actually bursts out of the ovary and leaves a place which will scar in it's wake. Food for thought. That egg is much larger than a sperm. So which of you out there are already producing eggs in your testes? What would happen if a egg were to try to get out of a testes? Or maybe you have other things that are happening to your bodies? So why get rid of the American Farmer that keeps animals for food and try to only have mass produced, assembly line chickens, pigs, cattle and dairy herds? Because the American Farmer just might wake up and start saying something! Good Day To All, Laura AKA The Pied Piper http://members.xoom.com/ThePiedPiper/Intro2.htm1. Take the 60-day No Aspartame Test and send us your case history. Mission Possible International5950-H State Bridge Rd. #215 Duluth, GA 30097 USA 2. Tell your doctor and all of your friends! 3. Return Asparcidal food to the store.(anything with Monsanto's NutraSweet/Equal/Spoonful/Benevia/NatraTaste) VISIT http://www.dorway.com Get links to over 30 sites on aspartameVISIT http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/ ..FAQs CasesVISIT http://www.notmilk.com Exposing Bovine Growth Hormone Disability and Death are not acceptable costs of business!
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Whether Native Americans corraled bison or drove them off cliffs, the FACT of the matter is that at the time the Europeans showed up, bison numbered in the MILLIONS, and their accounts relate migrations where bison herds filled the land from horizon to horizon FOR DAYS... And yet within a few years of the railroad coming thru, the bison had been almost exterminated... So whatever hunting methods Indians used, even if they 'wasted' half a bison when butchering it, the FACT of the matter is that their methods did NOT wipe out the herds, but in fact seem to have made the herds more vigorous...while the European hunting methods did just the opposite... June === The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year, Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear. -- Wm. Cullen Bryant: The Death of the Flowers === *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: Then I thought of something else... Let's compare the American Bison with the elephant. In Africa, elephants are owned by "the people," which everyone with any sense should know by now, means "the government." There is no private ownership of elephants. Vast resources are spent (read, "taxpayer money") to protect the elephant for extinction due to poachers, disease, and general mis-management of the herds. On the other hand, in Burma, Thailand, and other countries, "people" -- without "the" in front of it -- meaning "individuals" -- own the elephants. The elephants are used as beasts of burden in private enterprise. Maybe because you are talking about two different speciecies of elephant...the Indian elephant is semi-tame and is trainable, while the African elephant -- a totally different species of elephant -- is not, at least not without an extensive amount of time and money to do so, and even then it will not be as tame as it's Indian cousin They are run over with elephants... elephants are thriving and multiplying. Bullshit. The Indian elephant's in trouble due to loss of it's natural habitat... There is no danger of their becoming extinct. Again, bullshit. An elephant is extremely expensive, to buy, to train (takes years), and to house and feed adequately...therefore most areas of the east where the elephant was once used have replaced the elephant with gasoline-driven vehicles to do the same work, as the gas vehicles are ultimately cheaper... June === The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year, Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear. -- Wm. Cullen Bryant: The Death of the Flowers === *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- You need to do some research on the subject, H. (with all due respect). The Canadian government is subsidizing their producers. Your remarks about agricultural subsidies demonstrates your basic lack of knowledge about conditions in the agricultural sector. The reason why you should "buy American" is quite simple. Your dollars are going to insure the continued productivity of our domestic economy. The wheat farmers are Americans who pay taxes, send their kids off to war to protect the country. If the wheat farmers do well economically, rural America does well... The agricultural sector supports thousands of small businesses throughout the American Midwest. Each dollar that is spent in a rural community is "rolled over" several times through that community. When you buy American products, you are supporting your country. It's that simple. You are indirectly the beneficiary of the economic wellbeing of your fellow citizens. The farmers pay taxes that support basic services like schools, highways, medical services... If your fellow citizens go under economically, eventually, YOU will be asked to pay for their welfare. Their economic distress undermines your own economic security. How so? Re-read your American history. Take a look at the American Depression. When money is taken out of an economy, out of the pockets of ordinary working people, the system eventually collapses. Re: Your "tribal mentality" remarks. They are fundamentally racist and absurd. First of all, Native Americans did not have a "money" economy. Their technological expertise could not rival the Europeans (who, as you must know) were the heirs and technological beneficiaries of several advanced civilizations (Rome, Greece, Egypt, the cultures of the Levant).. The European expansion was based on CENTURIES of cultural trials and errors... Also, look at the role that geography,a temperate climate, and proximity to the "civilized" Near East played in the development of Europe. Re: "God made animals for us" comments. They're made for the plate? An interesting argument. I would only point out that we might consider some healthier, "kinder and gentler" (borrowing a phrase) ways of taking care of our protein needs. Just a thought. But of course we could follow PJ O'Rourke's advice and eat the rich. Regards, Wm On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: -Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Thank you for the excellent post. Here in North Dakota, the agricultural community is hurting thanks to a number of stupid government policies... NAFTA and the Republican "Freedom to Farm" bill... The wheat growers are particularly angry at Canadian dumping of wheat on this side of the border... The wheat consumers -- such as I -- are particularly angry at the US Govm't for subsidizing farmers and paying them NOT to grow wheat... However, I hasten point out that I disbelieve you when you say that Canadians are "dumping" wheat in the United States... Why would they do that? Seems like they would sell it to Americans. And if Amercians are buying Canadian wheat rather than American wheat, doesn't it make you wonder why? Could it be that they are selling it at a price MOST Americans would rather pay? Why should I subsidize a North Dakota farmer who's trying to rip me off by charging higher prices than the Canadians? Out in the western half of the state ( posse comitatus-militia country), the beef industry still holds sway The cattle industry plays hell with the environment... There's an interesting idea Who's "environment?" Chances are it is land owned by the United States government, and leased to the cattle rancher. If the govm't would sell all the land it owns, it could wipe out the national debt. Did you know that the U.S. govm't owns MORE LAND west of the Mississippi than there IS LAND east of that mighty river? Why should the govm't own all that land in the first place? As the family farms go under, many of the farm people find themselves targeted by white supremacist groups If they are "going under," what are they being targeted for? Family farms are "going under" primarily because of govm't programs that encourage stupid economics, which has little to do with white supremacist groups, which don't know any economics. Re: American Indian hunting practices. Native Americans were smart enough to realize that it wasn't a good idea to exhaust the resources of the environment. They were also stupid enough not to realize the value of personal ownership of wealth, and the productive power of capitalism... After all, that's why they were living in tents and barely subsisting... "Hunters and gatherers" don't have any capital to carry them over in hard times (such as a bad hunting season). "Tribal mentality" is the same as "slave mentality," which isn't known to result in creation of wealth and prosperity. The buffalo was the
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- I'm all for your right to own an elephant, Hawk. Go for it. However, I think your argument that private owners make better caretakers because they are interested in protecting their investment might be a little weak. It resembles the arguments used by white slaveowners during the Abolitionist debates... "We love our slaves...after all, they're investments.. We have to take care of them or they lose their value.." Regards, Wm On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: -Caveat Lector- Hawk wrote: -Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: Re: American Indian hunting practices. Native Americans were smart enough to realize that it wasn't a good idea to exhaust the resources of the environment. Hawk said: They were also stupid enough not to realize the value of personal ownership of wealth, and the productive power of capitalism... Then I thought of something else... Let's compare the American Bison with the elephant. In Africa, elephants are owned by "the people," which everyone with any sense should know by now, means "the government." There is no private ownership of elephants. Vast resources are spent (read, "taxpayer money") to protect the elephant for extinction due to poachers, disease, and general mis-management of the herds. On the other hand, in Burma, Thailand, and other countries, "people" -- without "the" in front of it -- meaning "individuals" -- own the elephants. The elephants are used as beasts of burden in private enterprise. They are run over with elephants... elephants are thriving and multiplying. There is no danger of their becoming extinct. The reason is this: When elephants belong to individuals, and represent "wealth" to that person, he takes care of them, nurtures them, and promotes their well-being AT NO COST TO "SOCIETY." He pays all this out of his own pocket, for his own welfare and to produce his own wealth. It is the same with almost any "natural resource." When the govm't owns it, there is a burden on the taxpayer, and the resource is almost certain to be mis-managed, costly, and in danger of depletion. When individuals own resources, they foot the bill for preservation and management of the resource. While an individual may needlessly and foolishly exploit or squander his little portion of the resource, it is unlikely that all owners of similar resources would be so foolish. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: They are run over with elephants... elephants are thriving and multiplying. Bullshit. The Indian elephant's in trouble due to loss of it's natural habitat... Maybe I should have said "Domesticated Indian elephants." You're back to talking about "wild" elephants that "belong to the people." There is no danger of their becoming extinct. Again, bullshit. An elephant is extremely expensive, to buy, to train (takes years), and to house and feed adequately...therefore most areas of the east where the elephant was once used have replaced the elephant with gasoline-driven vehicles to do the same work, as the gas vehicles are ultimately cheaper... Proves my point As long as there was a "use" for elephants, and people were allowed to own them for their personal use, there was no danger of them becoming extinct. As for the rest of the world, I must say that not having ever seen a "do-do bird" doesn't seem to have had a detrimental effect on me... And since I can no longer buy elephant-hide boots, and never had a desire to own any ivory, the extinction of elephants would not effect me much either. I don't think they were "put here" for entertainment purposes (i.e. vacation trips to Africa, or even to the zoo, to "see the elephants.") Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/4/99 11:56:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: They were also stupid enough not to realize the value of personal ownership of wealth, and the productive power of capitalism... After all, that's why they were living in tents and barely subsisting... "Hunters and gatherers" don't have any capital to carry them over in hard times (such as a bad hunting season). "Tribal mentality" is the same as "slave mentality," which isn't known to result in creation of wealth and prosperity. The Native Americans should have been ashamed of themselves not to realize the commercial value of property. Of coure they were doing beautifully before the colonists started killing them, but they just should have understood that grabbing the most of everything is the mark of true civilization. Maybe they already understood the words I saw on an announcement board outside a local church. "When we die, we leave what we have and take what we are." Prudy DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- You need to do some research on the subject, H. (with all due respect). The Canadian government is subsidizing their producers. I don't care at all what the Canadian govm't subsidizes or doesn't subsidize. I would be delighted if they bought every grain of Canadian wheat and gave it to me free. Your remarks about agricultural subsidies demonstrates your basic lack of knowledge about conditions in the agricultural sector. I freely admit to "lack of knowledge" about conditions in the agricultural sector. However, I don't have to have a great deal of knowledge to know that it is wrong for the govm't to take MY money, against my will, and give it to farmers. Anything beyond that knowledge on the subject of subsidies is immaterial. By the way, I just read in this morning's Dallas Morning News that the U.S. Agriculture Dept (which has more employees than there are farmers in the U.S.) has "settled a lawsuit" with Negro farmers, in which the "farmers" will get a $50,000 cash award, plus all debts to the govm't will be canceled, which are estimated to be between $75,000 and $100,000 each. Do I have to be more knowlegable than that to know that I'm being screwed? The reason why you should "buy American" is quite simple. Your dollars are going to insure the continued productivity of our domestic economy. You've taken the bait, I see. You're telling me that I have some obligation to support people who otherwise cannot make a living at their chosen profession. Sir, I am not responsible for their inept farming or business practices, nor for their choice of how to make a living. They aren't responsible for mine either, by the way. The wheat farmers are Americans who pay taxes, send their kids off to war to protect the country. I pay my taxes, too... But I don't get a subsidy from farmers so I can be self-employed... And as for sending their kids off to war, then they are stupid to boot. I am not responsible for other peoples' stupidity. If the wheat farmers do well economically, rural America does well... So, I should pay higher prices than the free market will bear is that right? So "rural America will do well"??? And, by the same token, I should pay higher prices for automobiles so the United Autoworkers will do well? And exhorbitant taxes to support inferior schools so the teachers "will do well?" Give me a break! The agricultural sector supports thousands of small businesses throughout the American Midwest. Each dollar that is spent in a rural community is "rolled over" several times through that community. Good... Spend your own dollars, and stop taking mine... If that's your objective, go right ahead... But don't force me support people who don't give a damn whether or not I have to pay too much for what I buy. When you buy American products, you are supporting your country. It's that simple. Yep... That's one of the most "simple" things a person could say You are indirectly the beneficiary of the economic wellbeing of your fellow citizens. Maybe so, but I am DIRECTLY the victim of having my money extorted from me. Anytime someone starts talking about how I will benefit from someone else's govm't support, I automatically reach for my wallet. The farmers pay taxes that support basic services like schools, highways, medical services... Then they're being conned, too... Welcome to the club. If your fellow citizens go under economically, eventually, YOU will be asked to pay for their welfare. "Eventually, my ass!" I'm already being FORCED to pay for their welfare. I don't recall being "asked." Their economic distress undermines your own economic security. How so? They need to get a job that pays a living without extorting my money to subsidize their lifestyle... Re-read your American history. Take a look at the American Depression. When money is taken out of an economy, out of the pockets of ordinary working people, the system eventually collapses. That's my point... "MONEY IS BEING TAKEN OUT OF MY POCKET" and, you're right, the system will indeed collapse. Re: Your "tribal mentality" remarks. They are fundamentally racist and absurd. Yeah, yeah... You haven't a clue about who I am or what my ideas about "race" are. As for the results, which is what I commented on, do you deny it? First of all, Native Americans did not have a "money" economy. That's because they didn't have any money Everything is "the property of the tribe." That's why they were living in tents, and why they now live in hovels. The point is, they created no wealth, and having no one the tax, they were destitute. Re: "God made animals for us" comments. They're made for the plate? An interesting argument. I would only point out that we might consider some healthier, "kinder and gentler" (borrowing a phrase) ways of taking care of our protein needs. Just a thought.
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- I'm all for your right to own an elephant, Hawk. Go for it. However, I think your argument that private owners make better caretakers because they are interested in protecting their investment might be a little weak. I don't think its weak at all... Most people don't take care of "other peoples' stuff" as well as they care for their own... I'll bet you use more generous portions of toilet paper in a motel than you do when you're directly paying for it. Ever heard the old saying, "I'll beat you like a government mule"??? The basis for that little phrase is that people just don't take care of government stuff as well as they do their own. There are a zillion examples to support it. It resembles the arguments used by white slaveowners during the Abolitionist debates... "We love our slaves...after all, they're investments.. We have to take care of them or they lose their value.." It was, I might add, a valid argument. I've done a bit of research in that aspect of economics and history. For your information, the typical Negro slave received back, over the period of his life, about 90% of the wealth he produced... He had a longer life expectency than white Europeans of the time, and was better off in practically every measurable aspect of economic life and physical health than was any "peasant class" worker in the world (specifically factory workers in the industrial north and Europe). Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- You're too right. Isn't it sad? Prudy DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Re: government subsidies. I don't disagree with you on this point. Why should the government subsidize a particular economic sector (or special interest group) and not others? But that is how the game of power is played. The government is particularly generous to business interests of various sorts: Savings and Loan bailouts, bailouts to Mexican investors, bailouts to Wall Street junk bond investors, subsidies to defense contractors not to mention billions of dollars in armaments to oppressive dictators in central America, South America and wherever else peasants are seeking to overthrow their rulers. So, the subject of tax dollars going to finance any number of dubious schemes/boondoggles/etc. is a complex one. My tax dollars have supported the murder of millions of peasants around the world... in order to help some greedy corporate elites to make money off of the misery of poor people... I had no vote on the matter. Why should my tax dollars go to support United Fruit in Guatemala and El Salvador? Re: NAFTA American workers have seen their businesses sent to Mexico...thanks to NAFTA. Are you aware of the fact that government agencies work with private businesses to help them close down their American operations to move to slave labor markets overseas? Re: "sending kids off to war." Your caustic comment notwithstanding, you nor I wouldn't be enjoying the freedoms we do have, if it wasn't for the sacrifice of others... Perhaps, they were "stupid" to fight for this country. I don't think so. Re: "paying bills." People have been paying YOUR bill for a long time. They paid at Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Omaha, and a helluva lot of other places.. so you OWE something to this country... A lot of Americans have paid the price so that you can have your miserable little life. You should be proud to be a citizen...greatful to have the money to pay. Or maybe it's time for you to move to the Cayman Islands or some taxhaven with others of your ilk. Regards, Wm On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: -Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- You need to do some research on the subject, H. (with all due respect). The Canadian government is subsidizing their producers. I don't care at all what the Canadian govm't subsidizes or doesn't subsidize. I would be delighted if they bought every grain of Canadian wheat and gave it to me free. Your remarks about agricultural subsidies demonstrates your basic lack of knowledge about conditions in the agricultural sector. I freely admit to "lack of knowledge" about conditions in the agricultural sector. However, I don't have to have a great deal of knowledge to know that it is wrong for the govm't to take MY money, against my will, and give it to farmers. Anything beyond that knowledge on the subject of subsidies is immaterial. By the way, I just read in this morning's Dallas Morning News that the U.S. Agriculture Dept (which has more employees than there are farmers in the U.S.) has "settled a lawsuit" with Negro farmers, in which the "farmers" will get a $50,000 cash award, plus all debts to the govm't will be canceled, which are estimated to be between $75,000 and $100,000 each. Do I have to be more knowlegable than that to know that I'm being screwed? The reason why you should "buy American" is quite simple. Your dollars are going to insure the continued productivity of our domestic economy. You've taken the bait, I see. You're telling me that I have some obligation to support people who otherwise cannot make a living at their chosen profession. Sir, I am not responsible for their inept farming or business practices, nor for their choice of how to make a living. They aren't responsible for mine either, by the way. The wheat farmers are Americans who pay taxes, send their kids off to war to protect the country. I pay my taxes, too... But I don't get a subsidy from farmers so I can be self-employed... And as for sending their kids off to war, then they are stupid to boot. I am not responsible for other peoples' stupidity. If the wheat farmers do well economically, rural America does well... So, I should pay higher prices than the free market will bear is that right? So "rural America will do well"??? And, by the same token, I should pay higher prices for automobiles so the United Autoworkers will do well? And exhorbitant taxes to support inferior schools so the teachers "will do well?" Give me a break! The agricultural sector supports thousands of small businesses throughout the American Midwest. Each dollar that is spent in a rural community is "rolled over" several times through that community. Good... Spend your own dollars, and stop taking mine... If that's your objective, go right ahead... But don't force me support people who don't give a damn whether or not I have to pay too much for what I buy. When you buy American
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Thank you, Hawk, for the documentation. I apologize for any ad hominem remarks I might have made.. I have read Vogel. (I have a degree in American history.) Vogel argued that the majority of slaves were not inhumanely or cruelly treated.. I would agree (if we define inhumane treatment in terms of whippings, beatings, and being malnourished.) Yes, the slaveowners did take care of their property. But even the pampered "house niggers" could be bought and sold at the whim of their masters.. Re: Biblical support for slavery. Of course. "Slaves obey your masters," etc... Sure. Slavery was a respected institution in the ancient world... no doubt about it. As well as the Biblical injunction to not tolerate witches, etc. The Bible condoned a number of questionable practices.. I haven't read Dabney...but I have read the pro-slavery tracts of the period and I'm familiar with the arguments. On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- If you are going to spew forth such absolute bullshit, please document it. What academic sources are you using in your "research" on the conditions of blacks in the American South during the days of slavery? Not that I think you will bother to check it out, but one primary source is "Time On the Cross - The Economics of American Negro Slavery," by Pulitzer Prize-winning economist Robert W. Fogel. This is an extremely well-documented book by a man who's initial purpose was to debunk the idea that slavery as practiced in the South was inhumane and cruel. The facts didn't substantiate his thesis, but he was principled enough to publish the book anyway. He wrote a later book in which he expressed his disapproval of slavery on "moral" grounds... But the facts I mentioned were accurate non-the-less. You might also want to read "A Defense of Virginia and the South," by R.L. Dabney. Regarding the "moral" aspect, I suggest a reading of the Bible and its teachings on the institution of slavery. Hawk ps... I sent this to the list as well as to you personally, since I received a note from the list that I had exceeded my daily limit of seven postings. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: Bullshit. The Indian elephant's in trouble due to loss of it's natural habitat... Maybe I should have said "Domesticated Indian elephants." You're back to talking about "wild" elephants that "belong to the people." And just WHERE do you think those 'domesticated Indian elephants' get PARKED? Do you really think that privately owned Indian elephants in the increasingly urbanized southeast Asia get put into garages, complete with automatic dooropeners, every night? I stand by my statement...the DOMESTICATED Indian elephant is also in trouble, due to the loss of its natural habitat. Proves my point As long as there was a "use" for elephants, and people were allowed to own them for their personal use, there was no danger of them becoming extinct. Proves absolutely nothing of what you claim...your contention was that AFRICAN elephants should be privately owned like some Indian elephants are...ignoring the FACT that African elephants are basically untrainable. You also ignore the fact of the USES the Indian elephant was put to, and therefore fail to recognize WHY the Indian elephant, privately owned tho many of them may be, is becoming increasingly rare... It would make as much sense to argue that Saudis and Kuwaitis should go back to using camels instead of driving cars... I don't think they were "put here" for entertainment purposes (i.e. vacation trips to Africa, or even to the zoo, to "see the elephants.") I would not presume to second-guess God's mind in WHY elephants...or any other species...was put on Earth...neither would I presume to state that eliminating any species would have little, or no, effect on the greater whole... But my guess is that God will treat each one of us by the way we treated the lesser species in our care/dominion... June === The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year, Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear. -- Wm. Cullen Bryant: The Death of the Flowers === *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/5/99 12:54:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: and history. For your information, the typical Negro slave received back, over the period of his life, about 90% of the wealth he produced... He had a longer life expectency than white Europeans of the time, and was better off in practically every measurable aspect of economic life and physical health than was any "peasant class" worker in the world ( specifically factory workers in the industrial north and Europe). You must be living in a dream world, have you been shooting something into your arm? If you learned very little in school, it is not too late. I suggest you read Bullwhip Days to unburden yourself of the scales that cover your eyes. Jerry PS the notion that privately held property is taken better care of is certainly pure crap where the corporations are concerned. Consider Hurwitz and his tender treatment of the resources of MAXXAM. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: But my guess is that God will treat each one of us by the way we treated the lesser species in our care/dominion... Oh no, I killed a rat in my house the other day. Am I going to go to hell? best wishes, Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: and history. For your information, the typical Negro slave received back, over the period of his life, about 90% of the wealth he produced... He had a longer life expectency than white Europeans of the time, and was better off in practically every measurable aspect of economic life and physical health than was any "peasant class" worker in the world ( specifically factory workers in the industrial north and Europe). You must be living in a dream world, have you been shooting something into your arm? Nope... and I live in the real world... And from your post, I seem to have a better comprehension of it than the likes of you. If you learned very little in school, it is not too late. Oh, I "learned" a lot in school... Apparently the same thing you learned. Fortunately, I was able to "un-learn" the bullshit that was presented. Unfortunately, you don't seem to have learned anything except the propoganda... It MAY be too late. I suggest you read Bullwhip Days to unburden yourself of the scales that cover your eyes. "Bullwhip" huh? Sounds charming. Since we are suggesting things to each other, while there is one suggestion that I am tempted to make, I will, instead, encourage you to read "Time On the Cross" by PulitzerPrize-winning author William Fogel. You might learn something. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- Thank you for the excellent post. Here in North Dakota, the agricultural community is hurting thanks to a number of stupid government policies... NAFTA and the Republican "Freedom to Farm" bill... The wheat growers are particularly angry at Canadian dumping of wheat on this side of the border... Out in the western half of the state ( posse comitatus-militia country), the beef industry still holds sway The cattle industry plays hell with the environment...and the aquifer is being pumped out.. As the family farms go under, many of the farm people find themselves targeted by white supremacist groups Here in Fargo, every Monday night, the local community can watch "The White Hour of Power Show," hosted by one of our homegrown Aryan types. This individual is proud of his brownshirt and swastika... His theme song for the program is a scratchy old recording of an SS anthem, the Horst Wessel Song. In the western half of the state, Tom Metzger has been able to gain access to the local airwaves in order to capitalize on the anger in the heartland. Scary stuff.. Re: American Indian hunting practices. Native Americans were smart enough to realize that it wasn't a good idea to exhaust the resources of the environment. The buffalo was the Native American equivalent to a supermarket... every part of the animal was used by the plains people.. Waste not...want not... Personally, I'm a vegetarian. Years ago, not having my college degree, finding myself out of work in a strange city, I was hired on at a meatpacking plant. I lasted three months... and that experience changed me... I agree with the author of this post. We need to move towards a more humane and environmentally sound policy like getting our protein needs from soy beans and grain... Plus, think about the needless destruction to our water supplies... (and think about the people who have to slaughter the animals for a living, just so you can have your supply of burgers) Try a veggie burger..they're great! :) Regards, Wm On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Marlea Linse wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: -Caveat Lector- Today's NY Times has an article titled "People Can't Agree on What's Natural and What's Not," by Timothy Egan that repeats an often-heard accusation against the American Indian, namely that they were just as "wasteful" of natural resources as the Europeans. Egan writes: "A hundred years ago, after the Americans had wiped out most of the bounteous bison of the West and removed the native people who had lived on those animals, there came a great die-out of domestic cattle. A long, bitter winter left cowboys without cows, and the Indians saying, 'Told you so.' It was, many people still believe, nature's blow against the attempt to erase much of the native West. "But what about the Great Plains tribes, who used to start big grass fires to drive bison off a cliff? By some estimates, up to 90 percent of a herd was wasted. It may have been natural or simply crafty and wasteful, no different from Roman excess." Well, what about those Great Plains tribes? If you look at the chapter on "The Prairie-Plains" in Alice Kehoe's "North American Indians: A Comprehensive Account," you will find reference to bison being corralled, not being stampeded off cliffs. John C. Ewers was Senior Ethnologist at the Smithsonian Institution and an expert on Plains Indians. In his "The Blackfeet: Raiders of the Northwestern Plains," there is an account from an elder named Old Weasel Tail of how the Blackfoot hunted bison prior to the introduction of the horse into their society: "Near the edge of timber and toward the bottom of a downhill slope the Indians built a corral of wooden posts set upright in the ground to a height of about seven feet. They connected the posts by crosspoles tied in place with rawhide ropes. Around three sides of the corral they laid stakes over the lowest crosspoles. Their butt ends were firmly braced in the ground outside the corral. These stakes projected about three feet or more inside the corral at an angle, so that their sharpened ends were about the height of a buffalo's body. If the buffalo tried to break through the corral, after they had been driven into it, they would be impaled on these stakes. From the open side of the corral the fence of poles extended in two wings outward and up the hill. These lines were further extended by piles of cut willows in the shape of conical lodges about half the height of a man, tied together at their tops. These brush piles were spaced at intervals of several feet. On the hill just above the corral opening a number of poles were placed on the ground crosswise of the slope and parallel to each other. The buffalo had to cross these poles to enter the corral. The poles were covered with manure and water, which froze and became slippery so that once the buffalo were in the corral
Re: [CTRL] Stampeding Bison
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: -Caveat Lector- Thank you for the excellent post. Here in North Dakota, the agricultural community is hurting thanks to a number of stupid government policies... NAFTA and the Republican "Freedom to Farm" bill... The wheat growers are particularly angry at Canadian dumping of wheat on this side of the border... The wheat consumers -- such as I -- are particularly angry at the US Govm't for subsidizing farmers and paying them NOT to grow wheat... However, I hasten point out that I disbelieve you when you say that Canadians are "dumping" wheat in the United States... Why would they do that? Seems like they would sell it to Americans. And if Amercians are buying Canadian wheat rather than American wheat, doesn't it make you wonder why? Could it be that they are selling it at a price MOST Americans would rather pay? Why should I subsidize a North Dakota farmer who's trying to rip me off by charging higher prices than the Canadians? Out in the western half of the state ( posse comitatus-militia country), the beef industry still holds sway The cattle industry plays hell with the environment... There's an interesting idea Who's "environment?" Chances are it is land owned by the United States government, and leased to the cattle rancher. If the govm't would sell all the land it owns, it could wipe out the national debt. Did you know that the U.S. govm't owns MORE LAND west of the Mississippi than there IS LAND east of that mighty river? Why should the govm't own all that land in the first place? As the family farms go under, many of the farm people find themselves targeted by white supremacist groups If they are "going under," what are they being targeted for? Family farms are "going under" primarily because of govm't programs that encourage stupid economics, which has little to do with white supremacist groups, which don't know any economics. Re: American Indian hunting practices. Native Americans were smart enough to realize that it wasn't a good idea to exhaust the resources of the environment. They were also stupid enough not to realize the value of personal ownership of wealth, and the productive power of capitalism... After all, that's why they were living in tents and barely subsisting... "Hunters and gatherers" don't have any capital to carry them over in hard times (such as a bad hunting season). "Tribal mentality" is the same as "slave mentality," which isn't known to result in creation of wealth and prosperity. The buffalo was the Native American equivalent to a supermarket... every part of the animal was used by the plains people.. Waste not...want not... I think most of them "wanted" most of the time... Because they were non-producers, they suffered the same fate as so-called "over-populated" countries... ie being destitute most of the time. We need to move towards a more humane and environmentally sound policy like getting our protein needs from soy beans and grain... If God didn't want us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat. Plus, think about the needless destruction to our water supplies... There's about the same amount of water in the world as there has been for several centuries. All we can do with it is try to move it from place to place, and even then, it isn't usually very cooperative. (and think about the people who have to slaughter the animals for a living, just so you can have your supply of burgers) WoW! What a brilliant statement! In case you haven't learned this, those people aren't slaughtering animals "so I can have hamburgers." They don't give a damn if I EVER have a hamburger... They don't even know me... In my opinion, they are slaughtering animals so THEY can have what THEY want -- most of which costs money, which they earn by slaughtering animals. Try a veggie burger..they're great! No thanks... I need to keep my cholesterol count high... the govm't says it should be low, and they lie about everything. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL]
