Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 at 13:23, Chris Murphy  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:49 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
>  wrote:
> >
> > Dear developers,
> > sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
> > number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention
> > top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people
> > pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information
> > twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format,
> > which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those
> > senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
>
> The place to fix this is at the listserver. Either bounce HTML emails
> like kernel.org does, or strip the HTML. I support the latter but not
> the former. It severely limits my participation to have emails bounce.
>
>
As for the top and bottom post thing, I agree top posting is annoying
> but again, that ship has sailed on mobile. There's no going back, and
> I wish this whole debate would just die by us giving up and going with
> top posting as the preferred way.
>
>
It just means the conversation shifts for when someone posts in context
that they are not following the social path.. you then end up with long
diatribes about how in-context breaks X,Y,Z things that top-posting people
require. In the end, it is mostly about social filtering... there are those
who follow 'a convention' and those who do not. We are filtering our
in-house people versus our unclean just like any other org.


>
> --
> Chris Murphy
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>


-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Chris Murphy]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:49 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
 wrote:
>
> Dear developers,
> sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
> number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention
> top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people
> pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information
> twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format,
> which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those
> senders have in common is that they use Gmail.

The place to fix this is at the listserver. Either bounce HTML emails
like kernel.org does, or strip the HTML. I support the latter but not
the former. It severely limits my participation to have emails bounce.

As for the top and bottom post thing, I agree top posting is annoying
but again, that ship has sailed on mobile. There's no going back, and
I wish this whole debate would just die by us giving up and going with
top posting as the preferred way.


-- 
Chris Murphy
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Mario Torre]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:11 AM Richard W.M. Jones  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 12:55:12PM +0200, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:50 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
> > domi...@greysector.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear developers,
> > >
> >
> > Hello, Dominik ;)
> >
> > sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
> > > number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention
> > > top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people
> > > pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information
> > > twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format,
> > > which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those
> > > senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
> > >
> > > So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora
> > > mailing lists.
> > >
> >
> > I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send
> > plaintext emails. Sorry =(

It seems to randomly change the settings over time, however there's a
way to do so, in the bottom corner of the reply textfield, next to
trash icon, there's a menu. If you click on that you will have access
to the "plain text mode" option.

> At least it's sending a proper text/plain alternative.
>
> I've seen far worse, such as corporate mail systems that send a snotty
> message along the lines of "install an HTML-capable email reader" as
> the text alternative.  Clue for those developers: If your software is
> too stupid to create a text alternative, don't send one at all.

Well, yeah, but some people don't really have a choice and it would be
unfair to ask them not to contribute because we don't like HTML
mailers (which is a problem, I agree, but shouldn't be
discriminatory).


Cheers,
Mario


-- 
Mario Torre
Associate Manager, Software Engineering
Red Hat GmbH 
9704 A60C B4BE A8B8 0F30  9205 5D7E 4952 3F65 7898
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 12:55:12PM +0200, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:50 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
> domi...@greysector.net> wrote:
> 
> > Dear developers,
> >
> 
> Hello, Dominik ;)
> 
> sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
> > number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention
> > top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people
> > pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information
> > twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format,
> > which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those
> > senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
> >
> > So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora
> > mailing lists.
> >
> 
> I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send
> plaintext emails. Sorry =(

At least it's sending a proper text/plain alternative.

I've seen far worse, such as corporate mail systems that send a snotty
message along the lines of "install an HTML-capable email reader" as
the text alternative.  Clue for those developers: If your software is
too stupid to create a text alternative, don't send one at all.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com
virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any
software inside the virtual machine.  Supports Linux and Windows.
http://people.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-df/
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Brian (bex) Exelbierd]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:56 PM Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:
>
> Brian (bex) Exelbierd writes:
>
>  > The question was genuine.  Additionally, even at this site, the user
>  > profile doesn't seem to be present.
>
> I doubt there is a user profile chapter or page for HyperKitty at the
> Mailman project.  If there is one, it would be in the HyperKitty docs
> themselves.

As far as I know it is not and is only present as a set of links to a
personal blog here:  https://wiki.list.org/HyperKitty

>  > Unrelated, if you have edit rights on that page, the GitHub link is
>  > out of date and the page still refers to Fedora Hosted.
>
> I hope you don't mean the Mailman wiki DEV/Home page?  Couldn't find
> either reference there.

This is hte page in question:  https://wiki.list.org/HyperKitty

I believe my previous email contained the wrong link because of a cut
and paste error.

regards,

bex

>
> Steve
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org



-- 
Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexel...@redhat.com | b...@pobox.com
Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:28:45PM -, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> Please do. Neal and I are starting up an effort. I reached out to
> Abhilash, the upstream lead, last night on the devel list and he was very
> responsive to this idea. He's already created a gitlab subproject for our
> efforts upstream.

Okay; I'll be happy to. But I'll do it separately from this thread. 

> > list. The same is true for every other list I looked at. People just aren't
> > using this.
> Matthew, the target user for Hyperkitty isn't a devel-list reader.

But devel is by far our most active and important list.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Brian (bex) Exelbierd writes:

 > The question was genuine.  Additionally, even at this site, the user
 > profile doesn't seem to be present.

I doubt there is a user profile chapter or page for HyperKitty at the
Mailman project.  If there is one, it would be in the HyperKitty docs
themselves.

 > Unrelated, if you have edit rights on that page, the GitHub link is
 > out of date and the page still refers to Fedora Hosted.

I hope you don't mean the Mailman wiki DEV/Home page?  Couldn't find
either reference there.

Steve
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Graham Leggett]

On 04 Oct 2018, at 23:32, Matthew Miller  wrote:

> The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
> Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
> impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
> big consumer email providers are much better.

Top posting rules where people talk at each other. This is common in the 
corporate world where email is treated like letter writing.

When people are having a conversation with each other, you reply like this. In 
the corporate world, I often see people struggle putting their responses in red 
text, or in caps, instead of quoting properly. Quoting properly isn’t “old 
school” or “hold out”, it’s basic courtesy.

I don’t find quoting on mobile particularly difficult (speaking for iPhone).

Regards,
Graham
—
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Brian (bex) Exelbierd]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 10:12 PM Máirín Duffy  wrote:
>
>
> > If this is, why has the project chosen to not document that in their
> > code/docs?  That would, it seems, help contributors stay focused on
> > the goal.
> >
> https://wiki.list.org/DEV/Home?action=show=DEV
>
> I went to list.org, clicked on developer wiki, it's on the front page.

Interesting.  I went to my search engine of choice and typed in
hyperkitty.  The first two links were:

https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty
and
https://hyperkitty.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

These felt fully authoritative and I did not notice a link to the url you cite.

> This is veering a bit off topic now and I smell unnecessary snark. Something, 
> btw, I'm sure happens on Discourse.

The question was genuine.  Additionally, even at this site, the user
profile doesn't seem to be present.  I believe it can be gathered from
reading every blog you have linked and all of the associated comments.
This seems rather fragile as it is a long spin-up time and if your
blog goes away, we have no user profile.

Unrelated, if you have edit rights on that page, the GitHub link is
out of date and the page still refers to Fedora Hosted.

regards,

bex

>
> ~m
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org



-- 
Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexel...@redhat.com | b...@pobox.com
Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Máirín Duffy]

> If this is, why has the project chosen to not document that in their
> code/docs?  That would, it seems, help contributors stay focused on
> the goal.
> 
https://wiki.list.org/DEV/Home?action=show=DEV

I went to list.org, clicked on developer wiki, it's on the front page.

This is veering a bit off topic now and I smell unnecessary snark. Something, 
btw, I'm sure happens on Discourse.

~m
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Brian (bex) Exelbierd]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 4:19 PM Máirín Duffy  wrote:
>
> Check my blog, where there are even scans of the napkin sketches. Or Google 
> "hyperkitty ux" my blog and my outreachy interns blog pop up.

Is this in response to my question?  For some reason many of your
emails have no quoting or context.

If this is, why has the project chosen to not document that in their
code/docs?  That would, it seems, help contributors stay focused on
the goal.

regards,

bex

>
> ~m
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org



--
Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexel...@redhat.com | b...@pobox.com
Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Máirín Duffy]

Oh and I should also point out - you shouldn't have to read all of that, the 
point was to make our mailing lists accessible to folks who aren't mailing list 
users, who are less technical, younger, etc., to be more conclusive. Same 
reason  Discourse is being peddled here. Big diff is we keep the mail interface 
up for exisiting users rather than dropping them as a target!!

This is why folks are trying to point out here, you may get new users w 
discourse but they will be different and you may lose who you have now.

~m
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Máirín Duffy]

Check my blog, where there are even scans of the napkin sketches. Or Google 
"hyperkitty ux" my blog and my outreachy interns blog pop up.

~m
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Brian (bex) Exelbierd]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 12:29 AM Máirín Duffy  wrote:
>
>
> > I just couldn't use it for day-to-day communication. Not necessarily any
> > single thing, but lots and lots of fundamentals. How do I get a list of new
> > threads? How do I get a list of threads I've read but which have new
> > responses, and ideally show only the new responses? How can I mute a thread
> > I don't want to be alerted on? How do I get to the next thread from the
> > *bottom* of a thread I just read? How can I search... usefully at all? My
> > point isn't to rag on HyperKitty, but I could definitely go on.
>
> Please do. Neal and I are starting up an effort. I reached out to Abhilash, 
> the upstream lead, last night on the devel list and he was very responsive to 
> this idea. He's already created a gitlab subproject for our efforts upstream.
>
> > I tried for a while to file suggestions and bug reports, but especially
> > after the extra two years it took to even get deployed, it was *very* clear
> > there were no resources for ongoing development from Red Hat, no significant
> > non-RH Fedora development, and no meaningful outside development either.
> > Basic things like https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/64 didn't
> > even get *responses*. So, I stuck with my previous email client setup.
> >
> > And the thing is, it's *not just me*. Take a look at
> >
> > It is the 19th of the month. Not a single vote on our most busy mailing
> > list. The same is true for every other list I looked at. People just aren't
> > using this.
>
> Matthew, the target user for Hyperkitty isn't a devel-list reader.

Can you share more information about the target audience?  I read
through the non-install docs at hyperkitty.readthedocs.io which is
where the Gitlab project sent me.  I could only find statements about
the shortcomings with Pipermail the project was trying to fix.  I did
not see a target user statement or find one for Pipermail.

Thanks,

bex

>
> ~m
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org



-- 
Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexel...@redhat.com | b...@pobox.com
Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Máirín Duffy]

> I just couldn't use it for day-to-day communication. Not necessarily any
> single thing, but lots and lots of fundamentals. How do I get a list of new
> threads? How do I get a list of threads I've read but which have new
> responses, and ideally show only the new responses? How can I mute a thread
> I don't want to be alerted on? How do I get to the next thread from the
> *bottom* of a thread I just read? How can I search... usefully at all? My
> point isn't to rag on HyperKitty, but I could definitely go on.

Please do. Neal and I are starting up an effort. I reached out to Abhilash, the 
upstream lead, last night on the devel list and he was very responsive to this 
idea. He's already created a gitlab subproject for our efforts upstream.

> I tried for a while to file suggestions and bug reports, but especially
> after the extra two years it took to even get deployed, it was *very* clear
> there were no resources for ongoing development from Red Hat, no significant
> non-RH Fedora development, and no meaningful outside development either.
> Basic things like https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/64 didn't
> even get *responses*. So, I stuck with my previous email client setup.
> 
> And the thing is, it's *not just me*. Take a look at
> 
> It is the 19th of the month. Not a single vote on our most busy mailing
> list. The same is true for every other list I looked at. People just aren't
> using this.

Matthew, the target user for Hyperkitty isn't a devel-list reader.

~m
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Anderson, Charles R]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 01:51:02PM -0500, Mátyás Selmeci wrote:
> On 10/17/18 2:38 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 02:12:37PM -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> >> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 14:48:52 -0400,
> >>   "tonynel...@georgeanelson.com"  wrote:
>  ... For html only messages you would either need to reject them or 
>  rewrite them, both of which have issues.
> >>> I've used elinks to do that in an email forum I wrote. It worked better 
> >>> than doing it with, say, Beautiful Soup.
> >>
> >> That is a big risk on your list serve processor. I would want to use 
> >> something 
> >> a lot safer than elinks (or lynx) to parse unsolicited email messages. 
> >> What I 
> >> do at work is use a simple perl script, but it doesn't do a great job.
> > 
> > I use a perl script with these modules and some regexps to clean up
> > the result:
> > 
> > use HTML::Strip; use HTML::LinkExtor; use HTML::Entities
> > qw/decode_entities/; use URI::Escape qw/uri_unescape/;
> > ___
> 
> Is this Perl script available somewhere?  I'm interested in having
> something better than elinks for the times I read HTML mail in Mutt.

I put them up on github:

https://github.com/cranderson/mutt-scripts/tree/master
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Mátyás Selmeci]

On 10/17/18 2:38 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 02:12:37PM -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 14:48:52 -0400,
>>   "tonynel...@georgeanelson.com"  wrote:
 ... For html only messages you would either need to reject them or rewrite 
 them, both of which have issues.
>>> I've used elinks to do that in an email forum I wrote. It worked better 
>>> than doing it with, say, Beautiful Soup.
>>
>> That is a big risk on your list serve processor. I would want to use 
>> something 
>> a lot safer than elinks (or lynx) to parse unsolicited email messages. What 
>> I 
>> do at work is use a simple perl script, but it doesn't do a great job.
> 
> I use a perl script with these modules and some regexps to clean up
> the result:
> 
> use HTML::Strip; use HTML::LinkExtor; use HTML::Entities
> qw/decode_entities/; use URI::Escape qw/uri_unescape/;
> ___

Is this Perl script available somewhere?  I'm interested in having
something better than elinks for the times I read HTML mail in Mutt.

Thanks,
-Mat

-- 
Mátyás (Mat) Selmeci
Open Science Grid Software Team / Center for High-Throughput Computing
University of Wisconsin-Madison Department of Computer Sciences
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:26 AM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 03:53:06AM -, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > But we can file bugs against Discourse and they will be magically and
> > quickly fixed to our satisfaction, yes?
>
> Of course not. However: development is very active.
> https://github.com/discourse/discourse/commits/master
>
>
> > I'm concerned that those proposing Discourse seem to not have used
> > Hyperkitty at length.
>
> As you know, I was very excited about HyperKitty. I *did* try it very
> seriously at first, but not at length, because it quickly became apparent
> that it wasn't really up to the task of being my primary interface to
> email.
> I just couldn't use it for day-to-day communication. Not necessarily any
> single thing, but lots and lots of fundamentals. How do I get a list of new
> threads? How do I get a list of threads I've read but which have new
> responses, and ideally show only the new responses? How can I mute a thread
> I don't want to be alerted on? How do I get to the next thread from the
> *bottom* of a thread I just read? How can I search... usefully at all? My
> point isn't to rag on HyperKitty, but I could definitely go on.
>
> I tried for a while to file suggestions and bug reports, but especially
> after the extra two years it took to even get deployed, it was *very* clear
> there were no resources for ongoing development from Red Hat, no
> significant
> non-RH Fedora development, and no meaningful outside development either.
> Basic things like https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/64 didn't
> even get *responses*. So, I stuck with my previous email client setup.
>
> And the thing is, it's *not just me*. Take a look at
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/
> right now. Every single thread shows a "meh" face and "+0/-0". It says
>
>Most popular discussions
>No vote has been cast this month (yet).
>
> It is the 19th of the month. Not a single vote on our most busy mailing
> list. The same is true for every other list I looked at. People just aren't
> using this.
>
> I *really* think HyperKitty has potential. But we can't run on potential.
> Discourse is a pure open source project that is *really catching on and
> successful*. It's not perfect either, of course, but we're way better off
> aligning with something with momentum.
>
>
Completely agree - well stated.  It's quite obvious when using both tools
which lends itself
to better conversation and collaboration.  I realize people are resistant
to change - but once
they start to use and learn about the new features and functionality - most
people come around.
Sometimes people need a nudge to change and adapt - myself included.  It's
just human nature -
but as I get older, I try to keep an open mind and be adaptable.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Pierre-Yves Chibon]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 03:53:06AM -, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:27:02PM -, Ray Strode wrote:
> > 
> > Unfortunately, all is not rosy there. See this thread on the users' list
> > from this fall about confusion with hyperkitty quoting:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.o...
> 
> It's hilarious reading this thread in Hyperkitty and having absolutely no 
> issue understanding which quote is from whom.

You're replying to an email from Matthew but it show here as coming from Ray
Strode. This is the bug Matthew was referring to.

Pierre
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 03:53:06AM -, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> But we can file bugs against Discourse and they will be magically and
> quickly fixed to our satisfaction, yes?

Of course not. However: development is very active. 
https://github.com/discourse/discourse/commits/master


> I'm concerned that those proposing Discourse seem to not have used
> Hyperkitty at length.

As you know, I was very excited about HyperKitty. I *did* try it very
seriously at first, but not at length, because it quickly became apparent
that it wasn't really up to the task of being my primary interface to email.
I just couldn't use it for day-to-day communication. Not necessarily any
single thing, but lots and lots of fundamentals. How do I get a list of new
threads? How do I get a list of threads I've read but which have new
responses, and ideally show only the new responses? How can I mute a thread
I don't want to be alerted on? How do I get to the next thread from the
*bottom* of a thread I just read? How can I search... usefully at all? My
point isn't to rag on HyperKitty, but I could definitely go on.

I tried for a while to file suggestions and bug reports, but especially
after the extra two years it took to even get deployed, it was *very* clear
there were no resources for ongoing development from Red Hat, no significant
non-RH Fedora development, and no meaningful outside development either.
Basic things like https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/64 didn't
even get *responses*. So, I stuck with my previous email client setup.

And the thing is, it's *not just me*. Take a look at 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/
right now. Every single thread shows a "meh" face and "+0/-0". It says

   Most popular discussions
   No vote has been cast this month (yet).

It is the 19th of the month. Not a single vote on our most busy mailing
list. The same is true for every other list I looked at. People just aren't
using this.

I *really* think HyperKitty has potential. But we can't run on potential.
Discourse is a pure open source project that is *really catching on and
successful*. It's not perfect either, of course, but we're way better off
aligning with something with momentum.


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno ven 19 ott 2018 alle 5:53, =?iso-8859-1?b?TeFpcu1u?= Duffy 
 ha scritto:


I'm concerned that those proposing Discourse seem to not have used 
Hyperkitty at length.




I'm one of those.
I've never used Hyperkitty before, but I'll give it a try now.


___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Máirín Duffy]

> On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:27:02PM -, Ray Strode wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, all is not rosy there. See this thread on the users' list
> from this fall about confusion with hyperkitty quoting:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.o...

It's hilarious reading this thread in Hyperkitty and having absolutely no issue 
understanding which quote is from whom.
 
> (Look back at your message I'm replying to here, and note that the standard
> attribution line is missing. And that's not the only issue identified.)
> 
> Additionally, when one does reply, it's just using the standard web browser
> text box, and to my knowledge that doesn't have an easy "delete by line"
> keyboard command, let alone things like smart reflow with quoting. 

These sound like good enhancement features that are likely not essential for 
the core target user.

So that's
> not super-ideal for inline replies. Hyperkitty's threaded view also is
> rudimentary compared to a good mail client.
> 
> All of this stuff would be something we could invest development resources
> in and make better, but we don't really _have_ those resources,

But we can file bugs against Discourse and they will be magically and quickly 
fixed to our satisfaction, yes?

We can invest money and resources into Discourse deployment, and time and 
effort trying to convert each ML over to it one by one, dealing with all of the 
existing docs and pointers to MLs and updating them, no sweat?

Threading is something I could fix on the front end with some backend help. Is 
anybody handy with Django who is interested?

Is that the biggest issue to tackle?

I'm concerned that those proposing Discourse seem to not have used Hyperkitty 
at length.

 and no
> significant outside-of-fedora hyperkitty development community ever
> developed. We're left with some pretty awful things like the prominent "Sign
> Up" button on every Fedora list leading to a big, ugly "Sign Up Closed: We
> are sorry, but the sign up is currently closed" screen —  which is not very
> inviting, to say the least.

I have no idea what that is, but it sounds like a minor bug that probably isn't 
difficult to fix.

But sure let's split our community over that.

~m
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Roberto Ragusa]

On 10/09/2018 04:06 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:

> One click is too much for my terminal email client via SSH on my
> phone.  My email client already supports filtering into separate
> mailboxes for each list and also supports threads shown in a
> hierarchy.  If Fedora lists go away in favor of a web forum, I will
> probably just not participate anymore.

That's more or less the same for me.
My fetchmail, procmail and thunderbird setup gives me a way to
keep an eye on this (and many other mailing lists) without much effort.
I will not consider switching to a forum based website, since
my experience with projects using them has been discouraging.
Any "mailing list mode" will be a second class citizen, with
limitations and constant babysitting, and certainly due to be removed
in the future because "most of our users are using the web UI".

I'll probably not follow Fedora anymore.
My folders contain all fedora and fedora-devel mails
since my subscription, on 24/12/2005 (that is, Fedora 4),
not sure if there will be a 2019 folder.

Regards.

-- 
   Roberto Ragusamail at robertoragusa.it
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[tonynel...@georgeanelson.com]

Bruno said:> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 14:48:52 -0400,
  "tonynel...@georgeanelson.com"  wrote:
>>> ... For html only messages you would either need to reject them or rewrite 
>>> them, both of which have issues.
>>I've used elinks to do that in an email forum I wrote. It worked better than 
>>doing it with, say, Beautiful Soup.
>
>That is a big risk on your list serve processor. I would want to use something 
>a lot safer than elinks (or lynx) to parse unsolicited email messages. What I 
>do at work is use a simple perl script, but it doesn't do a great job.It's 
>after I've stripped it in Beautiful 
>Soup.___TonyN.:'
>                                          Sent from my LG Mobile___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 19:38:20 +,
 "Anderson, Charles R"  wrote:

I use a perl script with these modules and some regexps to clean up
the result:

use HTML::Strip; use HTML::LinkExtor; use HTML::Entities
qw/decode_entities/; use URI::Escape qw/uri_unescape/;


Thanks, I'll take a look at using some of these to make my scripts better.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Anderson, Charles R]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 02:12:37PM -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 14:48:52 -0400,
>   "tonynel...@georgeanelson.com"  wrote:
> >> ... For html only messages you would either need to reject them or rewrite 
> >> them, both of which have issues.
> >I've used elinks to do that in an email forum I wrote. It worked better than 
> >doing it with, say, Beautiful Soup.
> 
> That is a big risk on your list serve processor. I would want to use 
> something 
> a lot safer than elinks (or lynx) to parse unsolicited email messages. What I 
> do at work is use a simple perl script, but it doesn't do a great job.

I use a perl script with these modules and some regexps to clean up
the result:

use HTML::Strip; use HTML::LinkExtor; use HTML::Entities
qw/decode_entities/; use URI::Escape qw/uri_unescape/;
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 14:48:52 -0400,
 "tonynel...@georgeanelson.com"  wrote:

... For html only messages you would either need to reject them or rewrite 
them, both of which have issues.

I've used elinks to do that in an email forum I wrote. It worked better than 
doing it with, say, Beautiful Soup.


That is a big risk on your list serve processor. I would want to use something 
a lot safer than elinks (or lynx) to parse unsolicited email messages. What I 
do at work is use a simple perl script, but it doesn't do a great job.

___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[tonynel...@georgeanelson.com]

> ... For html only messages you would either need to reject them or rewrite 
> them, both of which have issues.
I've used elinks to do that in an email forum I wrote. It worked better than 
doing it with, say, Beautiful Soup.
(Sorry, 
Bruno.)___TonyN.:'
                                          Sent from my LG Mobile
-- Original message--From: Bruno Wolff IIIDate: Wed, Oct 17, 2018 2:11 
PMTo: Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski;Cc: 
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org;Subject:Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn 
off HTML mail
On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 15:40:19 +0200,
>
>Stop sending e-mail to public mailing lists using Gmail, then? Or are
>you going to pay for affected people's bandwith? Mailing lists have push
>delivery model, so it's not possible to filter-out only HTML e-mail
>before it's already downloaded.

It is, but it has to be done server side. I think mailman supports dropping 
html attachments which should work pretty well for multipart/alternative 
messages. For html only messages you would either need to reject them or 
rewrite them, both of which have issues.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 15:40:19 +0200,


Stop sending e-mail to public mailing lists using Gmail, then? Or are
you going to pay for affected people's bandwith? Mailing lists have push
delivery model, so it's not possible to filter-out only HTML e-mail
before it's already downloaded.


It is, but it has to be done server side. I think mailman supports dropping 
html attachments which should work pretty well for multipart/alternative 
messages. For html only messages you would either need to reject them or 
rewrite them, both of which have issues.

___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 8:21 PM Reindl Harald  wrote:
>
> nice for you, other prefer email and *local* archives which sirely don't
> disappear *because* you control the whole client and if somebody next
> year makes a relaunch of the online stuff with a bad usability or
> lacking features you are doomed
>
> "do you have to worry about using space to archive conversations which
> are important to you" is nonsense - if it's *important* for you you need
> it local with your won control of archiving and backups

What if your system crashes and your backups were destroyed?  You are doomed!

The bottom line is that Discourse is a superior solution.  It allows
for rss feeds, email
notifications, bookmarks, editing your posts, etc.  The threads are
infinitely more readable.

For those of you who must use email can simply turn on "mailing list mode".

Before criticising a solution, try it out.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 7:06 AM Anderson, Charles R  wrote:
> One click is too much for my terminal email client via SSH on my
> phone.  My email client already supports filtering into separate
> mailboxes for each list and also supports threads shown in a
> hierarchy.  If Fedora lists go away in favor of a web forum, I will
> probably just not participate anymore.

I just tried it out and found it incredibly easy to use.  Not only
that, noticed I had
made an error in my post and was able to simply edit it.  Easily setup
a rss feed for
notifications.  Love it.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Anderson, Charles R]

On Tue, Oct 09, 2018 at 06:58:27AM -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> Completely agree - and discourse is a great solution.  It allows for
> RSS feeds and
> email notifications = participation is a click away.  Your email inbox
> is no longer cluttered
> with hard to follow threads, nor do you have to worry about using
> space to archive conversations which
> are important to you... just use the bookmark feature.

One click is too much for my terminal email client via SSH on my
phone.  My email client already supports filtering into separate
mailboxes for each list and also supports threads shown in a
hierarchy.  If Fedora lists go away in favor of a web forum, I will
probably just not participate anymore.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:33 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:
>
> The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
> Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
> impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
> big consumer email providers are much better.
>
> Yes, this sucks for having nuanced point-by-point discussions. But I don't
> think that's a tide we're really going to hold back. We should look at other
> tools that fit with the way people do asynchronous online discussion today.
> As Brian noted, we're trying out Discourse at 
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
> —  if you're interested in trying it out, come join the conversation there.

Completely agree - and discourse is a great solution.  It allows for
RSS feeds and
email notifications = participation is a click away.  Your email inbox
is no longer cluttered
with hard to follow threads, nor do you have to worry about using
space to archive conversations which
are important to you... just use the bookmark feature.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Alex Thomas]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 4:33 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:
>
> The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
> Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
> impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
> big consumer email providers are much better.
>
> Yes, this sucks for having nuanced point-by-point discussions. But I don't
> think that's a tide we're really going to hold back. We should look at other
> tools that fit with the way people do asynchronous online discussion today.
> As Brian noted, we're trying out Discourse at 
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
> —  if you're interested in trying it out, come join the conversation there.
>
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
Please no. No more Discourse. Having already stopped keeping up with
one major project (Chef.io) because of that switch.Far easier to live
with how broken gmail is and possibly just stripping out html content,
then trying force web forum software into being useful.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 08:25:21PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
> I'm more worried how these forums exclude commercial contributors.  Rust
> has the same NC terms.  How is this supposed to work for projects which
> are not exclusively run and used by hobbyists?  How do you incorporate
> material that is posted to the forum into free software, when the terms
> clearly state that you cannot do this?

It looks like Foreman hasn't updated the software's boilerplate terms of
service, which puts user content under CC BY-NA-SA.

For the Fedora instance, we've changed that whole long page to a much
simpler statement that

1. Participants are bound by the Fedora Code of Conduct, and

2. User contributions need to be under an acceptable-for-Fedora license,
   with the normal Fedora content license (which is CC BY-SA 3.0) by
   default.

(See https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/tos)

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Florian Weimer]

* Matthew Miller:

> The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this way,
> and https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
> is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might have
> some ... trepidation.

I'm more worried how these forums exclude commercial contributors.  Rust
has the same NC terms.  How is this supposed to work for projects which
are not exclusively run and used by hobbyists?  How do you incorporate
material that is posted to the forum into free software, when the terms
clearly state that you cannot do this?

Thanks,
Florian
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Chris Murphy]

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Matthew Miller
 wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 02:02:46AM +0100, Andrew Clayton wrote:
>> Adam Williamson  wrote:
>> > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 17:32 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> > > The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline 
>> > > replies.
>> > > Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
>> > > lists.
>> > ...like this one. ;)
>> His email was from mutt as well! I guess fedora-devel just isn't
>> old-school enough :(
>
> Okay, I admit to some level of trolling there. :)
>
> My point, though, is that I don't think we can afford to be exclusively
> old-school to the point where it makes a significant barrier to entry.

I agree.

And I think this needs rephrasing since forever:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Place each part of your reply after the text it addresses (i.e., NO
Top-Posting, please see "Wikipedia - Top Posting" and links therein
for more on this).

It's one thing to state a preference for bottom posting, and why. But
the present guidelines encourage people to flip out whenever there's a
top post.


> Top-posting isn't just an annoying Gmail thing; it's a whole different
> approach to using email for conversations. And, yeah, it *is* a much worse
> one than our old-school threaded, minimal-quoting, usenet-inspired style.
> That's why the general trend is *away* from email.

For all the faults of gmail, one thing I like is being able to search
lists within gmail.


>
> The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this way,
> and https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
> is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might have
> some ... trepidation.
>
> I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's honestly worth
> considering if a different approach will be more effective.

Far worse would be fragmented list/forums resulting from mutually
exclusive venues. It's probably a joke and not worth the effort to
have automagic behind the scenes cross posting between discourse
forums and hyperkitty (email) lists.

-- 
Chris Murphy
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 02:02:46AM +0100, Andrew Clayton wrote:
> Adam Williamson  wrote:
> > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 17:32 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > > The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline 
> > > replies.
> > > Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> > > lists.  
> > ...like this one. ;)
> His email was from mutt as well! I guess fedora-devel just isn't
> old-school enough :(

Okay, I admit to some level of trolling there. :) 

My point, though, is that I don't think we can afford to be exclusively
old-school to the point where it makes a significant barrier to entry. A few
years ago, I think the landscape was different. As more young people come to
the project with a new perspective on online communication, we should look
at how _our_ practices should evolve.

Top-posting isn't just an annoying Gmail thing; it's a whole different
approach to using email for conversations. And, yeah, it *is* a much worse
one than our old-school threaded, minimal-quoting, usenet-inspired style.
That's why the general trend is *away* from email.

The Foreman community recently switched away from mailing lists in this way,
and https://theforeman.org/2018/07/discourse-6-months-on-impact-assesment.html
is really interesting and helpful read on the topic for those who might have
some ... trepidation.

I'm not sayin' we are ready to shut this list down, but it's honestly worth
considering if a different approach will be more effective.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Neal Gompa]

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 11:11 AM Matthew Miller  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:27:02PM -, Ray Strode wrote:
> > Why switch, when we already have
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > ? it does good quoting already, you get to click what you want, and i'm
> > guessing this reply i'm sending will show up plaintext.
>
> Unfortunately, all is not rosy there. See this thread on the users' list
> from this fall about confusion with hyperkitty quoting: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/us...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/HQATMLGPSWGT4PGPUMYOLA6FOL6AV3XO/#ZRYTMEI3HIBLYWGQK4RZUBA4RQZREZR7
> (Look back at your message I'm replying to here, and note that the standard
> attribution line is missing. And that's not the only issue identified.)
>
> Additionally, when one does reply, it's just using the standard web browser
> text box, and to my knowledge that doesn't have an easy "delete by line"
> keyboard command, let alone things like smart reflow with quoting. So that's
> not super-ideal for inline replies. Hyperkitty's threaded view also is
> rudimentary compared to a good mail client.
>
> All of this stuff would be something we could invest development resources
> in and make better, but we don't really _have_ those resources, and no
> significant outside-of-fedora hyperkitty development community ever
> developed. We're left with some pretty awful things like the prominent "Sign
> Up" button on every Fedora list leading to a big, ugly "Sign Up Closed: We
> are sorry, but the sign up is currently closed" screen —  which is not very
> inviting, to say the least.
>

Python is migrating to Mailman 3 now:
https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/

And there's interest in the openSUSE community to switch from mlmmj to
Mailman 3 with HyperKitty.

So the community *is* developing, it's just much later than probably expected.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:27:02PM -, Ray Strode wrote:
> Why switch, when we already have 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> ? it does good quoting already, you get to click what you want, and i'm
> guessing this reply i'm sending will show up plaintext.

Unfortunately, all is not rosy there. See this thread on the users' list
from this fall about confusion with hyperkitty quoting: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/us...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/HQATMLGPSWGT4PGPUMYOLA6FOL6AV3XO/#ZRYTMEI3HIBLYWGQK4RZUBA4RQZREZR7
(Look back at your message I'm replying to here, and note that the standard
attribution line is missing. And that's not the only issue identified.)

Additionally, when one does reply, it's just using the standard web browser
text box, and to my knowledge that doesn't have an easy "delete by line"
keyboard command, let alone things like smart reflow with quoting. So that's
not super-ideal for inline replies. Hyperkitty's threaded view also is
rudimentary compared to a good mail client.

All of this stuff would be something we could invest development resources
in and make better, but we don't really _have_ those resources, and no
significant outside-of-fedora hyperkitty development community ever
developed. We're left with some pretty awful things like the prominent "Sign
Up" button on every Fedora list leading to a big, ugly "Sign Up Closed: We
are sorry, but the sign up is currently closed" screen —  which is not very
inviting, to say the least.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 7:27 PM Ray Strode  wrote:
>
> > I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want to
> > get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
> > bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together.  Lets
> > move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
> Why switch, when we already have
>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>
> ?  it does good quoting already, you get to click what you want, and i'm 
> guessing this reply i'm sending will show up plaintext.
>

You are correct. It worked exactly like that. However, it seems like
there just simply wasn't much in the way of promoting the HyperKitty
interface after the initial growing pains of deploying it and
converting everything over.


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Andrew Clayton]

On Thu, 04 Oct 2018 16:26:21 -0700
Adam Williamson  wrote:

> On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 17:32 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
> > Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> > lists.  
> 
> ...like this one. ;)

His email was from mutt as well! I guess fedora-devel just isn't
old-school enough :(
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Ray Strode]

> I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want to
> get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
> bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together.  Lets
> move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
Why switch, when we already have 

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

?  it does good quoting already, you get to click what you want, and i'm 
guessing this reply i'm sending will show up plaintext.

Ray
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Adam Williamson]

On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 17:32 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
> Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> lists.

...like this one. ;)
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Igor Gnatenko]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 23:33 Matthew Miller  wrote:

> The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
> Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
> impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
> big consumer email providers are much better.
>
> Yes, this sucks for having nuanced point-by-point discussions. But I don't
> think that's a tide we're really going to hold back. We should look at
> other
> tools that fit with the way people do asynchronous online discussion today.
> As Brian noted, we're trying out Discourse at
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
> —  if you're interested in trying it out, come join the conversation there.
>

How can we get our space there? Packaging and Rust topics.

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 03:51:51PM +0530, Manas Mangaonkar wrote:
> > all this aside,HTML mail format is difficult to qoute and reply on
> > mobile,plain text would be nice.
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 3:34 PM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd <
> bexel...@redhat.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:44 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wednesday, 03 October 2018 at 08:38, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > > > > * Iñaki Ucar:
> > > > >
> > > > > > IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> > > > > > automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this
> (e.g.,
> > > > > > R).
> > > > >
> > > > > In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read
> > > (it's
> > > > > clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.
> > > >
> > > > For me it's actually the other way around, because HTML part gets
> > > > processed by lynx. Quoting is marked by identation, which is not
> > > > automatically highlighted by VIM, while the > prefix in the
> text/plain
> > > > part is.
> > > >
> > > > But that's beside the point. My point was about excessive and
> > > > unnecessary bandwith usage (the same information gets sent twice).
> > >
> > > I respect this issue, but I wonder if it this is a situation where we
> > > are trying to solve a problem for a small number of people by
> > > potential inconveniencing or excluding a lot of people.
> > >
> > > While Internet plans vary, I wonder how many pay per bit?  In
> > > September, if you assume every message sent to devel list was plain
> > > text and you further assume that the html version was 1.25 times
> > > longer then the total traffic for the month would have been about 10.6
> > > MB.  While this is 2.25 more bits than were actually sent (based on
> > > disk size), is it really a problem we should invest effort in fixing?
> > >
> > > We know that more and more people are using mailers which can
> > > accidentally or purposefully send HTML mail.  We know that we want to
> > > attract people, and not create unneeded barriers to entry.  Saying
> > > that you have to change your email client to participate in Fedora is
> > > a huge disincentive.  We are effectively putting a sign on the door
> > > saying "go away."
> > >
> > > I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want to
> > > get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
> > > bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together.  Lets
> > > move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
> > > There the person will be given the ability to select exactly which
> > > subjects they see and allow to be transmitted down the wire.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > bex
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Dominik
> > > > --
> > > > Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPMFusion   http://rpmfusion.org
> > > > There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> > > > oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> > > > -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess
> Irulan
> > > > ___
> > > > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> > > > List Guidelines:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > > List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.
> > > org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexel...@redhat.com | b...@pobox.com
> > > Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
> > > @bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
> > > ___
> > > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> > > List Guidelines:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > List Archives:
> 

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Matthew Miller]

The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
big consumer email providers are much better.

Yes, this sucks for having nuanced point-by-point discussions. But I don't
think that's a tide we're really going to hold back. We should look at other
tools that fit with the way people do asynchronous online discussion today.
As Brian noted, we're trying out Discourse at 
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/
—  if you're interested in trying it out, come join the conversation there.


On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 03:51:51PM +0530, Manas Mangaonkar wrote:
> all this aside,HTML mail format is difficult to qoute and reply on
> mobile,plain text would be nice.
> 
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 3:34 PM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd 
> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:44 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wednesday, 03 October 2018 at 08:38, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > > > * Iñaki Ucar:
> > > >
> > > > > IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> > > > > automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> > > > > R).
> > > >
> > > > In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read
> > (it's
> > > > clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.
> > >
> > > For me it's actually the other way around, because HTML part gets
> > > processed by lynx. Quoting is marked by identation, which is not
> > > automatically highlighted by VIM, while the > prefix in the text/plain
> > > part is.
> > >
> > > But that's beside the point. My point was about excessive and
> > > unnecessary bandwith usage (the same information gets sent twice).
> >
> > I respect this issue, but I wonder if it this is a situation where we
> > are trying to solve a problem for a small number of people by
> > potential inconveniencing or excluding a lot of people.
> >
> > While Internet plans vary, I wonder how many pay per bit?  In
> > September, if you assume every message sent to devel list was plain
> > text and you further assume that the html version was 1.25 times
> > longer then the total traffic for the month would have been about 10.6
> > MB.  While this is 2.25 more bits than were actually sent (based on
> > disk size), is it really a problem we should invest effort in fixing?
> >
> > We know that more and more people are using mailers which can
> > accidentally or purposefully send HTML mail.  We know that we want to
> > attract people, and not create unneeded barriers to entry.  Saying
> > that you have to change your email client to participate in Fedora is
> > a huge disincentive.  We are effectively putting a sign on the door
> > saying "go away."
> >
> > I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want to
> > get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
> > bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together.  Lets
> > move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
> > There the person will be given the ability to select exactly which
> > subjects they see and allow to be transmitted down the wire.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > bex
> >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Dominik
> > > --
> > > Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPMFusion   http://rpmfusion.org
> > > There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> > > oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> > > -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
> > > ___
> > > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> > > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.
> > org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexel...@redhat.com | b...@pobox.com
> > Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
> > @bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
> > ___
> > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.
> > fedoraproject.org
> >

> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: 

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Manas Mangaonkar]

all this aside,HTML mail format is difficult to qoute and reply on
mobile,plain text would be nice.

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 3:34 PM, Brian (bex) Exelbierd 
wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:44 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
>  wrote:
> >
> > On Wednesday, 03 October 2018 at 08:38, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > > * Iñaki Ucar:
> > >
> > > > IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> > > > automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> > > > R).
> > >
> > > In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read
> (it's
> > > clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.
> >
> > For me it's actually the other way around, because HTML part gets
> > processed by lynx. Quoting is marked by identation, which is not
> > automatically highlighted by VIM, while the > prefix in the text/plain
> > part is.
> >
> > But that's beside the point. My point was about excessive and
> > unnecessary bandwith usage (the same information gets sent twice).
>
> I respect this issue, but I wonder if it this is a situation where we
> are trying to solve a problem for a small number of people by
> potential inconveniencing or excluding a lot of people.
>
> While Internet plans vary, I wonder how many pay per bit?  In
> September, if you assume every message sent to devel list was plain
> text and you further assume that the html version was 1.25 times
> longer then the total traffic for the month would have been about 10.6
> MB.  While this is 2.25 more bits than were actually sent (based on
> disk size), is it really a problem we should invest effort in fixing?
>
> We know that more and more people are using mailers which can
> accidentally or purposefully send HTML mail.  We know that we want to
> attract people, and not create unneeded barriers to entry.  Saying
> that you have to change your email client to participate in Fedora is
> a huge disincentive.  We are effectively putting a sign on the door
> saying "go away."
>
> I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want to
> get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
> bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together.  Lets
> move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
> There the person will be given the ability to select exactly which
> subjects they see and allow to be transmitted down the wire.
>
> regards,
>
> bex
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dominik
> > --
> > Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPMFusion   http://rpmfusion.org
> > There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> > oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> > -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
> > ___
> > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.
> org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>
>
>
> --
> Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexel...@redhat.com | b...@pobox.com
> Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
> @bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.
> fedoraproject.org
>
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Brian (bex) Exelbierd]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:44 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
 wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, 03 October 2018 at 08:38, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > * Iñaki Ucar:
> >
> > > IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> > > automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> > > R).
> >
> > In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read (it's
> > clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.
>
> For me it's actually the other way around, because HTML part gets
> processed by lynx. Quoting is marked by identation, which is not
> automatically highlighted by VIM, while the > prefix in the text/plain
> part is.
>
> But that's beside the point. My point was about excessive and
> unnecessary bandwith usage (the same information gets sent twice).

I respect this issue, but I wonder if it this is a situation where we
are trying to solve a problem for a small number of people by
potential inconveniencing or excluding a lot of people.

While Internet plans vary, I wonder how many pay per bit?  In
September, if you assume every message sent to devel list was plain
text and you further assume that the html version was 1.25 times
longer then the total traffic for the month would have been about 10.6
MB.  While this is 2.25 more bits than were actually sent (based on
disk size), is it really a problem we should invest effort in fixing?

We know that more and more people are using mailers which can
accidentally or purposefully send HTML mail.  We know that we want to
attract people, and not create unneeded barriers to entry.  Saying
that you have to change your email client to participate in Fedora is
a huge disincentive.  We are effectively putting a sign on the door
saying "go away."

I suggest that if we think this is a serious issue and that we want to
get the maximum possible help to those who are forced to pay by the
bit that we stop sending them mail they don't need all together.  Lets
move this mailing list (and others) to discussion.fedoraproject.org.
There the person will be given the ability to select exactly which
subjects they see and allow to be transmitted down the wire.

regards,

bex

>
> Regards,
> Dominik
> --
> Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPMFusion   http://rpmfusion.org
> There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org



-- 
Brian (bex) Exelbierd | bexel...@redhat.com | b...@pobox.com
Fedora Community Action & Impact Coordinator
@bexelbie | http://www.winglemeyer.org
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski]

On Wednesday, 03 October 2018 at 08:38, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Iñaki Ucar:
> 
> > IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> > automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> > R).
> 
> In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read (it's
> clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.

For me it's actually the other way around, because HTML part gets
processed by lynx. Quoting is marked by identation, which is not
automatically highlighted by VIM, while the > prefix in the text/plain
part is.

But that's beside the point. My point was about excessive and
unnecessary bandwith usage (the same information gets sent twice).

Regards,
Dominik
-- 
Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPMFusion   http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Florian Weimer]

* Iñaki Ucar:

> IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> R).

In many cases, the quoting in the text/html part is easier to read (it's
clearer who wrote what) than in the text/plain part.

For example, Igor's message looks like this in HTML:

|  Dear developers,
| 
| Hello, Dominik ;)
| 
|  sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
|  number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention

The first and last two lines of the snippet are quoted.

The corresponding text/plain version looks like this:

| > Dear developers,
| >
| 
| Hello, Dominik ;)
| 
| sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
| > number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention

So the quoting has become corrupted.  In this case, it is not much of a
problem, but for inline replies it can be really confusing.

Thanks,
Florian
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Fabio Valentini]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 3:41 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
 wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, 02 October 2018 at 12:55, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:50 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
> > domi...@greysector.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear developers,
> > >
> >
> > Hello, Dominik ;)
> >
> > sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
> > > number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention
> > > top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people
> > > pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information
> > > twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format,
> > > which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those
> > > senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
> > >
> > > So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora
> > > mailing lists.
> > >
> >
> > I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send
> > plaintext emails. Sorry =(
>
> Stop sending e-mail to public mailing lists using Gmail, then? Or are
> you going to pay for affected people's bandwith? Mailing lists have push
> delivery model, so it's not possible to filter-out only HTML e-mail
> before it's already downloaded.
>
> Regards,
> Dominik

I don't think we want to exclude people on mobile devices from
discussions. There are multiple reasons for not being able (or
willing) to sit in front of a PC when discussions happen here in real
time - among them, "office hours" depend on your time zone, some
people are contributing in their free time and have $DAYJOB where they
don't sit at a PC, watching the mailing lists, but might only become
aware of ongoing discussions on their mobile devices.

This happens to me quite often - discussions happen while I'm unaware
(or only have a phone with me), and by the time I'm at my PC, they are
over, decisions have been reached, everybody has moved on. I don't
think policies which would effectively discourage discussion
contributions by non-professionals / volunteers would be helpful. A
programmatical solution to the "HTML problem" at the server level
would be preferable (if possible) ...

Fabio

(Sent from GMail in Plain Text mode on my fedora machine)

> --
> Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPMFusion   http://rpmfusion.org
> There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
> oppression to develop psychic muscles.
> -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:46 AM Ankur Sinha  wrote:
> A known, but unsolved issue from the looks of it (from a 2014 post):
> https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/d7ySu-m1rgY

Yep... and the issue is 4 years old and ends with the recommendation
of "Send Feedback".  I have
no idea why Google doesn't add text mode to it's gmail phone apps...
seems like it would be
a simple thing for them to do - but then again, look at their other
apps - especially their
messaging strategy (or apparent lack thereof).  It's the wild west over there.

As @Chris mentioned, if people collectively believe it's a big enough
issue, start bouncing
HTML emails.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Chris Murphy]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:48 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski
 wrote:
> Dear developers,
> sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
> number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention
> top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people
> pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information
> twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format,
> which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those
> senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
>
> So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora
> mailing lists.

It's a valid complaint. Gmail has a Plain text mode in the popdown
menu to the right of the trash. Usually this is a sticky setting, but
for reasons I can't figure out it sometimes silently unsticks (I think
only on replies, not new mails). And Gmail on both iOS and Android
lacks the option entirely, which is where you're going to get the bulk
of top posting and html replies.

Considering it's 2018, and plain text and bottom posting are policies,
I'd like to think some clever person could make a mailing list program
apply the policy by striping out the html, recognizing top posting and
putting it at the bottom of the quoted text. And in fact this could
have been done 10 years ago but for whatever reason people seem to
prefer endlessly pointing to impossible guidelines and then
complaining when people or their chosen MUA fails the policy.

Meanwhile over on the vger kernel mailing lists, they bounce emails
that contain html. Which is super annoying because now I can't reply
from my phone, but at least no one is complaining about html emails on
any of those lists.



-- 
Chris Murphy
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[mcatanzaro]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 3:40 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski 
 wrote:

Stop sending e-mail to public mailing lists using Gmail, then?


Perhaps we've reached the end of meaningful conversation in this 
thread
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski]

On Tuesday, 02 October 2018 at 13:55, Iñaki Ucar wrote:
> El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:48, Iñaki Ucar
> () escribió:
[...]
> > IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> > automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> > R).
> 
> i.e., see multipart filtering and conversion to plaintext:
> 
> https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/filtering.html
> 
> It should be easy to set this up for all Fedora mailing lists.

While it might be easy, it would break GPG signatures on such
e-mails. Arguably it could be skipped for such signed e-mails
as a compromise.

Regards,
Dominik
-- 
Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPMFusion   http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski]

On Tuesday, 02 October 2018 at 12:55, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:50 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
> domi...@greysector.net> wrote:
> 
> > Dear developers,
> >
> 
> Hello, Dominik ;)
> 
> sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
> > number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention
> > top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people
> > pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information
> > twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format,
> > which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those
> > senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
> >
> > So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora
> > mailing lists.
> >
> 
> I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send
> plaintext emails. Sorry =(

Stop sending e-mail to public mailing lists using Gmail, then? Or are
you going to pay for affected people's bandwith? Mailing lists have push
delivery model, so it's not possible to filter-out only HTML e-mail
before it's already downloaded.

Regards,
Dominik
-- 
Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPMFusion   http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
-- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Orcan Ogetbil]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 07:27, Neal Gompa wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm wrote:
> >
> > > I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to 
> > > send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
> >
> > Gmail
> >  -> compose
> >  -> options (bottom right)
> >  -> plain text mode
> >
> > doesn't work for you?
> >
> > (I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check it)
> >
>
> This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.
>

Then don't use mobile apps to send email. :)
What is the problem?

(sent via gmail on desktop browser with the settings above)

Orcan
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Neal Gompa]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:56 AM Iñaki Ucar  wrote:
>
> El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:48, Iñaki Ucar
> () escribió:
> >
> > El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:44, Neal Gompa () 
> > escribió:
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:30 AM Reindl Harald  
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Am 02.10.18 um 13:25 schrieb Neal Gompa:
> > > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm  
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility 
> > > > >>> to send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Gmail
> > > > >>  -> compose
> > > > >>  -> options (bottom right)
> > > > >>  -> plain text mode
> > > > >>
> > > > >> doesn't work for you?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> (I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can 
> > > > >> check it)
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.
> > > >
> > > > so get k9 mail and use imap/smtp - problem solved and a devloper should
> > > > be capable to use mail proper
> > > >
> > >
> > > To be quite honest, I am not installing another mail app just for
> > > this. There's not a single legitimate reason for me to bother with the
> > > inconvenience of setting that up and effectively bypassing things like
> > > 2FA and whatnot.
> >
> > IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> > automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> > R).
>
> i.e., see multipart filtering and conversion to plaintext:
>
> https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/filtering.html
>
> It should be easy to set this up for all Fedora mailing lists.
>

I don't think it's a good idea to convert/transform people's emails in
flight... But multipart mail renders as plain text by most plain text
mail clients, so I'm not sure it's really a problem from Gmail (which
always sends multipart mail when in rich text mode).


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Iñaki Ucar]

El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:48, Iñaki Ucar
() escribió:
>
> El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:44, Neal Gompa () escribió:
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:30 AM Reindl Harald  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Am 02.10.18 um 13:25 schrieb Neal Gompa:
> > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to 
> > > >>> send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
> > > >>
> > > >> Gmail
> > > >>  -> compose
> > > >>  -> options (bottom right)
> > > >>  -> plain text mode
> > > >>
> > > >> doesn't work for you?
> > > >>
> > > >> (I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check 
> > > >> it)
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.
> > >
> > > so get k9 mail and use imap/smtp - problem solved and a devloper should
> > > be capable to use mail proper
> > >
> >
> > To be quite honest, I am not installing another mail app just for
> > this. There's not a single legitimate reason for me to bother with the
> > inconvenience of setting that up and effectively bypassing things like
> > 2FA and whatnot.
>
> IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
> automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
> R).

i.e., see multipart filtering and conversion to plaintext:

https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/filtering.html

It should be easy to set this up for all Fedora mailing lists.

>
> >
> >
> > --
> > 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
>
> --
> Iñaki Ucar



-- 
Iñaki Ucar
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Iñaki Ucar]

El mar., 2 oct. 2018 a las 13:44, Neal Gompa () escribió:
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:30 AM Reindl Harald  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 02.10.18 um 13:25 schrieb Neal Gompa:
> > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to 
> > >>> send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
> > >>
> > >> Gmail
> > >>  -> compose
> > >>  -> options (bottom right)
> > >>  -> plain text mode
> > >>
> > >> doesn't work for you?
> > >>
> > >> (I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check it)
> > >>
> > >
> > > This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.
> >
> > so get k9 mail and use imap/smtp - problem solved and a devloper should
> > be capable to use mail proper
> >
>
> To be quite honest, I am not installing another mail app just for
> this. There's not a single legitimate reason for me to bother with the
> inconvenience of setting that up and effectively bypassing things like
> 2FA and whatnot.

IMO, it would be easier for everybody if the mailing list could
automatically strip out the HTML part. Some projects do this (e.g.,
R).

>
>
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

-- 
Iñaki Ucar
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Ankur Sinha]

On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 07:33:44 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
> 
> To be quite honest, I am not installing another mail app just for
> this. There's not a single legitimate reason for me to bother with the
> inconvenience of setting that up and effectively bypassing things like
> 2FA and whatnot.

A known, but unsolved issue from the looks of it (from a 2014 post):
https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/d7ySu-m1rgY

-- 
Thanks,
Regards,

Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD"

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
Time zone: Europe/London


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Neal Gompa]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:30 AM Reindl Harald  wrote:
>
>
>
> Am 02.10.18 um 13:25 schrieb Neal Gompa:
> > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm  wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to 
> >>> send plaintext emails. Sorry =(
> >>
> >> Gmail
> >>  -> compose
> >>  -> options (bottom right)
> >>  -> plain text mode
> >>
> >> doesn't work for you?
> >>
> >> (I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check it)
> >>
> >
> > This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.
>
> so get k9 mail and use imap/smtp - problem solved and a devloper should
> be capable to use mail proper
>

To be quite honest, I am not installing another mail app just for
this. There's not a single legitimate reason for me to bother with the
inconvenience of setting that up and effectively bypassing things like
2FA and whatnot.


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Andrew Clayton]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 13:00:54 +0200
Michal Schorm  wrote:

> Gmail
>  -> compose
>  -> options (bottom right)
>  -> plain text mode  
> 
> doesn't work for you?
> 
> (I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check it)

Yeah, there was no HTML part.

Andrew
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Neal Gompa]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:01 AM Michal Schorm  wrote:
>
> > I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send 
> > plaintext emails. Sorry =(
>
> Gmail
>  -> compose
>  -> options (bottom right)
>  -> plain text mode
>
> doesn't work for you?
>
> (I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check it)
>

This is not respected by any of the mobile apps.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Michal Schorm]

> I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send 
> plaintext emails. Sorry =(

Gmail
 -> compose
 -> options (bottom right)
 -> plain text mode

doesn't work for you?

(I'm sending this e-mail with this setting so who knows how can check it)

--

Michal Schorm
Associate Software Engineer
Core Services - Databases Team
Red Hat
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Francisco J. Tsao Santin]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2018, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote:

> So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora
> mailing lists.
> 
> Regards,
> Dominik (who still reads e-mail in text mode in a terminal)

+1
-- 
Francisco Javier Tsao Santín
http://gattaca.es
1024D/71CF4D62  42 F1 53 35 EF 98 98 8A FC 6C 56 B3 4C A7 7D FB___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org

Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Igor Gnatenko]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:50 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski <
domi...@greysector.net> wrote:

> Dear developers,
>

Hello, Dominik ;)

sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but I've noticed that a significant
> number of posters is sending HTML e-mail to this list (not to mention
> top-replying), which generates unnecessary network traffic. Some people
> pay for every bit downloaded, so they're paying for the same information
> twice, because the e-mails are sent with multipart/alternative format,
> which contains BOTH text/plain and text/html. One thing I noticed those
> senders have in common is that they use Gmail.
>
> So, a plea to Gmail users: please stop sending HTML e-mail to Fedora
> mailing lists.
>

I'm sending you this HTML email because Google dropped possibility to send
plaintext emails. Sorry =(
-- 

-Igor Gnatenko
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org