date:20210629

> From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> Hi John,
> 
> I�m just confused, since I�m not clear on how the signal would then be 
> communicated if both parameters are set to 0.  I did try both
> with zero initially and didn�t observe any movement so I went to P=1. Then I 
> saw very slow movement.  That prompted me to tune
> for the limit of stability per some instructions I found.  But at the end of 
> the day the steady state jog ferror just increases for all
> reasonable P values in LinuxCNC regardless of the drive tune.  I was planning 
> to try P=0 and FF1=1 next.
> 
> Matt

That didn't work for me.  I think it was Andy that clued me in that I had to 
have P=0 and FF1=0 to disable the PID part of the LCNC.  Since the servo drive 
does it anyway and the acceleration (speed that step pulses change) is defined 
by the INI file.

These are from my Spindle.

MAX_VELOCITY = 50.0
MAX_ACCELERATION = 300.0
# The values below should be 25% larger than MAX_VELOCITY and MAX_ACCELERATION
# If using BACKLASH compensation STEPGEN_MAXACCEL should be 100% larger.
STEPGEN_MAXVEL = 62.5
STEPGEN_MAXACCEL = 375.0

What type of drive is it and can you set the parameters easily? 

John




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Re: [Emc-users] Advice on Tuning Servo System

2021-06-29 Thread Matthew Herd

Hi John,

I’m just confused, since I’m not clear on how the signal would then be 
communicated if both parameters are set to 0.  I did try both with zero 
initially and didn’t observe any movement so I went to P=1. Then I saw very 
slow movement.  That prompted me to tune for the limit of stability per some 
instructions I found.  But at the end of the day the steady state jog ferror 
just increases for all reasonable P values in LinuxCNC regardless of the drive 
tune.  I was planning to try P=0 and FF1=1 next.

Matt

> On Jun 29, 2021, at 10:48 PM, John Dammeyer  wrote:
> 
> Hi Matt,
> I'm running the XYZ with a P1000 and FF1=1.  But the Servo Drives do the 
> rest.  Even the spindle is an AC Servo Drive with step/dir interface but for 
> it I'm running P=0 and FF1=0.  When I first started I had issues with P=0 and 
> FF1=1 and I had no motion at all.   Setting FF1=0 solved that problem.  
> 
> So try FF1=0 and P=0 and then only the drive should be involved in tuning.
> John
> 
> 
> [AXIS_X]
> MIN_LIMIT = -0.04
> MAX_LIMIT = 13.5
> MAX_VELOCITY = 3.0
> MAX_ACCELERATION = 12
> 
> [JOINT_0]
> TYPE = LINEAR
> HOME = 0.0
> FERROR = 0.5
> MIN_FERROR = 0.1
> MAX_VELOCITY = 3.0
> #MAX_ACCELERATION = 7.5
> MAX_ACCELERATION = 12
> # The values below should be 25% larger than MAX_VELOCITY and MAX_ACCELERATION
> # If using BACKLASH compensation STEPGEN_MAXACCEL should be 100% larger.
> STEPGEN_MAXVEL = 3.75
> #STEPGEN_MAXVEL = 3.75
> #STEPGEN_MAXACCEL = 15.0
> STEPGEN_MAXACCEL = 24
> P = 1000.0
> I = 0.0
> D = 0.0
> FF0 = 0.0
> FF1 = 1.0
> FF2 = 0.0
> BIAS = 0.0
> DEADBAND = 0.0
> MAX_OUTPUT = 0.0
> # these are in nanoseconds
> DIRSETUP   = 1000
> DIRHOLD= 1000
> STEPLEN= 2000
> STEPSPACE  = 1000
> STEP_SCALE = 15000.0
> MIN_LIMIT = -0.04
> MAX_LIMIT = 13.5
> # tested backlash at 4.2" from home 14MAR2020
> BACKLASH = 0.0189
> 
> 
> HOME_OFFSET = -0.1
> #HOME_SEARCH_VEL = -0.8
> #HOME_LATCH_VEL = 0.01
> HOME_FINAL_VEL = 0.2
> HOME_IGNORE_LIMITS = YES
> HOME_VOLATILE = 1
> #HOME_SEQUENCE = 1
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: June-29-21 7:32 PM
>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Advice on Tuning Servo System
>> 
>> I fiddled with the X axis servo drive and tuned the parameters with P=1 and 
>> jog speed set to 60 IPM.  The ferror always returned to
>> zero but did so at an exceedingly slow pace.  I tuned the drive to the 
>> limits of stability (or a little over) and the movement was always
>> so slow you couldn�t detect it.  I then went to LinuxCNC and turned up the P 
>> values until I saw instability.  The machine moved much
>> more quickly, but still lagged the commanded value.  As P increased the lag 
>> was lessened, but always increased with  constant
>> jogging.  The velocity command to the USC board was a clean acceleration 
>> ramp, constant velocity, and deceleration ramp.  I cannot
>> explain why my results are so poor, but I�m hoping that someone might have 
>> some suggestions on how to determine whether it�s a
>> problem with my settings in LinuxCNC or a problem with the drives.
>> 
>> Matt
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 8:55 AM, Matthew Herd  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Ok I thought so. I just want to confirm that setting all PID parameters to 
>>> 0 will allow the velocity commands to pass through. I�d
>> think I�d need P=1 or something along those lines?
>>> 
>>> I hope to try this one evening this week if I can get to the shop.
>>> 
>>> Thanks again!
>>> 
>>> Matthew Herd
>>> herd.m...@gmail.com
>>> 610-608-8930
>>> 
 On Jun 29, 2021, at 8:31 AM, Les Newell  wrote:
 
 ?I just checked the docs and you are correct. I assumed you were using a 
 standard stepgen. I didn't realize Pico USC works
>> differently.
 
 Les
 
> On 29/06/2021 13:18, Matthew Herd wrote:
> Hi Les,
> 
> I�m not sure if that will work with the Pico USC board.  If I�m not 
> mistaken LinuxCNC treats the motors as servos and the board
>> handles the step generation.
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
 
 
 
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Z stepper losing position

2021-06-29 Thread Gene Heskett

On Tuesday 29 June 2021 18:28:13 Viesturs Lācis wrote:

> Hello!
>
> I have a question about a machine that I converted to LinuxCNC 5 or 6
> years ago. It is a  4 axis mill that is used for making jewelry -
> milling wax parts that are then turned into nice things with lost-wax
> technique.
>
> The issue is that Z axis is losing height. That is best observed, when
> the milling is done with rotary head. Here is an example - the height
> difference of first passes vs last passes is approximately 1 mm:
> https://www.picpasteplus.com/v.php?i=507b0d6be4
>
> The thing is that the client told me about this problem few years ago,
> but then it somehow disappeared or at least the position error was not
> that huge and it was possible to fix the wax part before proceeding.
>
> Machine is running 2.7.4 version. Here are the INI and HAL files:
> https://pastebin.com/N7tk8nnW
> https://pastebin.com/epyUVbpp
>
> I am convinced that all the possible mechanical causes have been
> checked. For the final check, we brought Z axis to particular
> position, marked motor shaft placement regarding motor case, then did
> the milling and afterwards brought it back to the same position -
> marks on motor shaft _did not_ match the case.
>
> I changed the feedrate and acceleration values 2x lower just to make
> sure that machine was not missing steps. Or is it still missing steps?
>
> So I would like to ask for some ideas, what else should I try and
> where to look.
>
> Viesturs
>
I have not looked at your files so I don't know if servo's or steppers 
are in use. If steppers, I would make the assumption that dir-setup and 
dir-hold needed more, you are losing one step every time the direction 
changes, but only in one direction. So add half a u-sec to DIRSETUP and 
DIRHOLD to see if that fixes it.

Take care Viesters.
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Advice on Tuning Servo System

Hi Matt,
I'm running the XYZ with a P1000 and FF1=1.  But the Servo Drives do the rest.  
Even the spindle is an AC Servo Drive with step/dir interface but for it I'm 
running P=0 and FF1=0.  When I first started I had issues with P=0 and FF1=1 
and I had no motion at all.   Setting FF1=0 solved that problem.  

So try FF1=0 and P=0 and then only the drive should be involved in tuning.
John


[AXIS_X]
MIN_LIMIT = -0.04
MAX_LIMIT = 13.5
MAX_VELOCITY = 3.0
MAX_ACCELERATION = 12

[JOINT_0]
TYPE = LINEAR
HOME = 0.0
FERROR = 0.5
MIN_FERROR = 0.1
MAX_VELOCITY = 3.0
#MAX_ACCELERATION = 7.5
MAX_ACCELERATION = 12
# The values below should be 25% larger than MAX_VELOCITY and MAX_ACCELERATION
# If using BACKLASH compensation STEPGEN_MAXACCEL should be 100% larger.
STEPGEN_MAXVEL = 3.75
#STEPGEN_MAXVEL = 3.75
#STEPGEN_MAXACCEL = 15.0
STEPGEN_MAXACCEL = 24
P = 1000.0
I = 0.0
D = 0.0
FF0 = 0.0
FF1 = 1.0
FF2 = 0.0
BIAS = 0.0
DEADBAND = 0.0
MAX_OUTPUT = 0.0
# these are in nanoseconds
DIRSETUP   = 1000
DIRHOLD= 1000
STEPLEN= 2000
STEPSPACE  = 1000
STEP_SCALE = 15000.0
MIN_LIMIT = -0.04
MAX_LIMIT = 13.5
# tested backlash at 4.2" from home 14MAR2020
BACKLASH = 0.0189


HOME_OFFSET = -0.1
#HOME_SEARCH_VEL = -0.8
#HOME_LATCH_VEL = 0.01
HOME_FINAL_VEL = 0.2
HOME_IGNORE_LIMITS = YES
HOME_VOLATILE = 1
#HOME_SEQUENCE = 1


> -Original Message-
> From: Matthew Herd [mailto:herd.m...@gmail.com]
> Sent: June-29-21 7:32 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Advice on Tuning Servo System
> 
> I fiddled with the X axis servo drive and tuned the parameters with P=1 and 
> jog speed set to 60 IPM.  The ferror always returned to
> zero but did so at an exceedingly slow pace.  I tuned the drive to the limits 
> of stability (or a little over) and the movement was always
> so slow you couldn�t detect it.  I then went to LinuxCNC and turned up the P 
> values until I saw instability.  The machine moved much
> more quickly, but still lagged the commanded value.  As P increased the lag 
> was lessened, but always increased with  constant
> jogging.  The velocity command to the USC board was a clean acceleration 
> ramp, constant velocity, and deceleration ramp.  I cannot
> explain why my results are so poor, but I�m hoping that someone might have 
> some suggestions on how to determine whether it�s a
> problem with my settings in LinuxCNC or a problem with the drives.
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> > On Jun 29, 2021, at 8:55 AM, Matthew Herd  wrote:
> >
> > Ok I thought so. I just want to confirm that setting all PID parameters to 
> > 0 will allow the velocity commands to pass through. I�d
> think I�d need P=1 or something along those lines?
> >
> > I hope to try this one evening this week if I can get to the shop.
> >
> > Thanks again!
> >
> > Matthew Herd
> > herd.m...@gmail.com
> > 610-608-8930
> >
> >> On Jun 29, 2021, at 8:31 AM, Les Newell  wrote:
> >>
> >> ?I just checked the docs and you are correct. I assumed you were using a 
> >> standard stepgen. I didn't realize Pico USC works
> differently.
> >>
> >> Les
> >>
> >>> On 29/06/2021 13:18, Matthew Herd wrote:
> >>> Hi Les,
> >>>
> >>> I�m not sure if that will work with the Pico USC board.  If I�m not 
> >>> mistaken LinuxCNC treats the motors as servos and the board
> handles the step generation.
> >>>
> >>> Matt
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Advice on Tuning Servo System

2021-06-29 Thread Matthew Herd

I fiddled with the X axis servo drive and tuned the parameters with P=1 and jog 
speed set to 60 IPM.  The ferror always returned to zero but did so at an 
exceedingly slow pace.  I tuned the drive to the limits of stability (or a 
little over) and the movement was always so slow you couldn’t detect it.  I 
then went to LinuxCNC and turned up the P values until I saw instability.  The 
machine moved much more quickly, but still lagged the commanded value.  As P 
increased the lag was lessened, but always increased with  constant jogging.  
The velocity command to the USC board was a clean acceleration ramp, constant 
velocity, and deceleration ramp.  I cannot explain why my results are so poor, 
but I’m hoping that someone might have some suggestions on how to determine 
whether it’s a problem with my settings in LinuxCNC or a problem with the 
drives.

Matt

> On Jun 29, 2021, at 8:55 AM, Matthew Herd  wrote:
> 
> Ok I thought so. I just want to confirm that setting all PID parameters to 0 
> will allow the velocity commands to pass through. I’d think I’d need P=1 or 
> something along those lines?
> 
> I hope to try this one evening this week if I can get to the shop. 
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> Matthew Herd
> herd.m...@gmail.com
> 610-608-8930
> 
>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 8:31 AM, Les Newell  wrote:
>> 
>> I just checked the docs and you are correct. I assumed you were using a 
>> standard stepgen. I didn't realize Pico USC works differently.
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>>> On 29/06/2021 13:18, Matthew Herd wrote:
>>> Hi Les,
>>> 
>>> I’m not sure if that will work with the Pico USC board.  If I’m not 
>>> mistaken LinuxCNC treats the motors as servos and the board handles the 
>>> step generation.
>>> 
>>> Matt
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Emc-users] 2.8.2 Release

2021-06-29 Thread Leonardo Marsaglia

A little late, but thanks to all of you developers and users for this
magnificent piece of software :)

Hope you're all doing well!

El mar, 29 jun 2021 a las 19:51, Bari () escribió:

> Thank you for the new release!
>
> On 6/28/21 2:25 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 at 07:47, jrmitchellj  wrote:
> >
> >> Andy, if you are going to spin up a new ISO,  It would be really nice to
> >> include/install pciutils in the package.
> > That's one of the reasons that I am planning a new ISO. The ISO source
> > is already updated.
> >
> https://github.com/LinuxCNC/buster-live-build/blob/master/config/package-lists/desktop.list
> >
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] About the 7i76E and possible DB25 expansion cards

2021-06-29 Thread Leonardo Marsaglia

>
> I helped a guy set up a 7i95 with encoders. Not hard, but not super simple
> because pncconf doesn't support that board native and the 7i95 configurator
> didn't work. I used the ini name setting in pncconf, made a config for a
> 7i96 and had to change the name of the board in the ini file and rename the
> io pins.
>
> I have a two switch home setup on my Emco using a prox switch as an index
> pulse after hitting a mechanical switch, using home_use_index and I'm using
> home_index_no_encoder_reset in master to home my x and z without having
> full encoder feedback. I made some videos on my YouTube channel about it.
>
> I'm not shying you away from the 7i95, i think it's a great board, but be
> ready for a little hair pulling unless you're pretty comfortable with the
> mesa ecosystem.
>

Well, I'm not new to mesa boards but I'm always using a whole different
approach on each machine. The first I installed was the 5i25 with a
breakout board my brother already designed for another project. Then I
started with the PCIe ones, and now I'm finally going for the ethernet ones
because saves me a lot of hassle mounting the PC on the cabinet. On the top
of that, I'm retrofitting a machine every 2 years so every time is like I'm
re learning all of it again.

One thing I must say, I've never used PNCCONF or STEPCONF. What I always
loved about LCNC is the way I can model a system with HAL using plain text.
I'm far away from being a programmer but the way HAL works for me is just
pure genius. I don't even use the Classicladder feature. For me HAL has it
all right there, and It never ceases to amaze me.

El sáb, 26 jun 2021 a las 10:17, Feral Engineer ()
escribió:

> I helped a guy set up a 7i95 with encoders. Not hard, but not super simple
> because pncconf doesn't support that board native and the 7i95 configurator
> didn't work. I used the ini name setting in pncconf, made a config for a
> 7i96 and had to change the name of the board in the ini file and rename the
> io pins.
>
> I have a two switch home setup on my Emco using a prox switch as an index
> pulse after hitting a mechanical switch, using home_use_index and I'm using
> home_index_no_encoder_reset in master to home my x and z without having
> full encoder feedback. I made some videos on my YouTube channel about it.
>
> I'm not shying you away from the 7i95, i think it's a great board, but be
> ready for a little hair pulling unless you're pretty comfortable with the
> mesa ecosystem.
>
> That being said, anyone ever use a 7i95 for full closed loop to LinuxCNC
> using step dir and encoders? I know a lot of guys are using the 7i77 that
> way with analog and there's the 7i97 that would be fun to check out as well
> for analog setups. Curious if there's any kind of weirdness that happens
> using step pulse with encoder vs just using analog signal.
>
>
> Phil T.
> The Feral Engineer
>
> Check out my LinuxCNC tutorials, machine builds and other antics at
> www.youtube.com/c/theferalengineer
>
> Help support my channel efforts and coffee addiction:
> www.patreon.com/theferalengineer
>
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 8:47 AM Leonardo Marsaglia 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello Andrew and Gene and sorry for the late reply. I hope you're doing
> > great!
> >
> > I believe I'll use the 7i84 as Peter suggested to expand the I/Os. But
> > instead of the 7i76E I'll go with the 7i95 which can read encoders too.
> > With this I can replicate what I did on the mazak which is to fool the
> > homing sequence to use the index pulse of the motors on the final stage.
> >
> > El mar, 22 jun 2021 a las 2:23, Gene Heskett ()
> > escribió:
> >
> > > On Monday 21 June 2021 22:01:25 Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks a lot Peter and Andy,
> > > >
> > > > I re read through the manual and found the SSERIAL port connection
> and
> > > > the recommendation of using a CAT5 cable cut in half. I missed that
> > > > part so I was a little confused about how to expand the I/Os. So,
> I'll
> > > > be more than ok with this board :)
> > > >
> > > Another possibility if you need lots of i/o, is the 7i90HD, which has a
> > > total of 72 lines. Firmware options for uo to 8 axises of steppers and
> > > encoders. Or I believe pwm-gens and encoders. The disadvantages are its
> > > 3, 50 pin i/o's that are all tied to the fpga, and easily damaged by
> > > noise. The fix for that is a trio of 7i42TA's which are effectly used
> as
> > > breakout boards, tradeing some bandwidth for the usual surge protection
> > > and giving you nice screw terminals to wire it up with. It can be
> driven
> > > from an epp parport, or from an spi port from a pi. With all the
> > > gingerbread I've put on the sheldon, I probably have 35 i/o lines
> unused
> > > yet. And I can fire up firefox and browse the net at the same time its
> > > running the sheldon. I felt keeping the ethernet port out of the lcnc
> > > arena, so the net port was available for updating and such was more
> > > important, and still do. 2 of my 4 machines

Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

The CoC topic has been over a couple of messages ago for me, but you
insist in stating you opinion out loud like it was the only one, I
already apologised for this.
I didn't find your CoC drama nice, and I think I will accurately avoid
writing here for a long long time, I dislike conflicts of all kinds, I
would have appreciated more if at least you had been looking for a
constructive conversation instead of making a conflict out of it.

That said I am off to start building a big 3D printer, probably I will
post pictures when its done.

Regards


On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 17:30 -0600, R C wrote:
> On 6/29/21 5:17 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 17:07 -0600, R C wrote:
> > > On 6/29/21 4:54 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > Could you please try to avoid reading too literally and instead
> > > > try
> > > > to
> > > > understand the broad sense of what I write?
> > > I can try, but I am not good at reading minds, it's not my
> > > problem
> > > you
> > > didn't say what you meant.
> > 
> > I said exactly what I meant, but for some (unknow to me) reason you
> > don't interpret it as I do:
> That's because your comparison is/was wrong.
> > I presume that good organization is
> > necessary to avoid the chaos that can sometimes arise in human
> > interactions.
> 
> No it isn't, chaos arises because of people disagreeing, hence what
> you 
> call good organization isn't necessarily interpreted as good by
> others 
> and creates chaos.
> 
> 
> >   The fact that LinuxCNC succeeded without organization is
> > pure luck in my opinion, in general human communities organize
> > themselves to avoid being overwhelmed by chaos and to facilitate
> > the
> > resolution of internal conflicts.
> 
> No I think they succeeded, because these "guys" doing this are very
> good 
> at what they are doing, are knowledgeable, and like doing this for 
> others to enjoy this software (which I definitely do).
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I am done with this conversation..   I go with the guy with
> the 
> "be kind sign" email,  I think that is what we should have as a CoC
> (and 
> I didn't see inclusive etc etc in the definition of 'kind')
> 
> 
> over and out.
> 
> > 
> > > Also, I changed my mind  ..
> > > 
> > > hey all, can we still have that CoC? with that one rule in it
> > > that
> > > said
> > > something about not telling others what to do, or something like
> > > that.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:39 -0600, R C wrote:
> > > > > On 6/29/21 4:19 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > > > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:29 -0500, Bari wrote:
> > > > > > > On 6/29/21 4:12 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > again, eccept for an evasive and dumb answer, there
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > why...
> > > > > > > > > let me guess,  you don't really have one other then a
> > > > > > > > > controlling
> > > > > > > > > vague one.
> > > > > > > > The why is evident, we don't live in a ruleless world,
> > > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > nature
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > animal groups have their survival rules.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > It is a question of survival of the community as a
> > > > > > > > cohesive
> > > > > > > > group.
> > > > > > > I thought that LCNC is an open source software project.
> > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > dramatic talk of animal survival?
> > > > > > as humans we are evoluted animals and human collectivity
> > > > > > follows
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > same survival rules. That is only for comparison.
> > > > > those are not rules, those are laws deducted from what is
> > > > > observed,
> > > > > same/similar to  physical laws (like the law of gravity).
> > > > > 
> > > > > Animals don't have rules on how to behave, there might be
> > > > > some
> > > > > very
> > > > > primal ones based on picking order, power.
> > > > > 
> > > > > for example, a coyote doesn't give a damn that there is a
> > > > > rule
> > > > > not
> > > > > to
> > > > > attack poodles, the only reason for it not to attack the
> > > > > poodle
> > > > > is if
> > > > > it
> > > > > were more dangerous for the coyote then for the poodle.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Evolution does have NOTHING to do with rules, it is a
> > > > > pattern, "a
> > > > > scientific law" that  is assumed and proven because of
> > > > > observations.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Also, you cannot compare something, with something else that
> > > > > is
> > > > > false
> > > > > or
> > > > > doesn't make sense,  that is nonsense, a moot point in any
> > > > > argument.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > ___
> > > > > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > > > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
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> > > > >

Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread fxkl47BF via Emc-users

y'all should move this to the debian-users list
they love this kind of bs


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 5:17 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 17:07 -0600, R C wrote:

On 6/29/21 4:54 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

Could you please try to avoid reading too literally and instead try
to
understand the broad sense of what I write?

I can try, but I am not good at reading minds, it's not my problem
you
didn't say what you meant.


I said exactly what I meant, but for some (unknow to me) reason you
don't interpret it as I do:

That's because your comparison is/was wrong.

I presume that good organization is
necessary to avoid the chaos that can sometimes arise in human
interactions.


No it isn't, chaos arises because of people disagreeing, hence what you 
call good organization isn't necessarily interpreted as good by others 
and creates chaos.




  The fact that LinuxCNC succeeded without organization is
pure luck in my opinion, in general human communities organize
themselves to avoid being overwhelmed by chaos and to facilitate the
resolution of internal conflicts.


No I think they succeeded, because these "guys" doing this are very good 
at what they are doing, are knowledgeable, and like doing this for 
others to enjoy this software (which I definitely do).




Also, I am done with this conversation..   I go with the guy with the 
"be kind sign" email,  I think that is what we should have as a CoC (and 
I didn't see inclusive etc etc in the definition of 'kind')



over and out.





Also, I changed my mind  ..

hey all, can we still have that CoC? with that one rule in it that
said
something about not telling others what to do, or something like
that.



On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:39 -0600, R C wrote:

On 6/29/21 4:19 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:29 -0500, Bari wrote:

On 6/29/21 4:12 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:


again, eccept for an evasive and dumb answer, there is
still
no
why...
let me guess,  you don't really have one other then a
controlling
vague one.

The why is evident, we don't live in a ruleless world, even
nature
and
animal groups have their survival rules.

It is a question of survival of the community as a cohesive
group.

I thought that LCNC is an open source software project. What
is
this
dramatic talk of animal survival?

as humans we are evoluted animals and human collectivity
follows
the
same survival rules. That is only for comparison.

those are not rules, those are laws deducted from what is
observed,
same/similar to  physical laws (like the law of gravity).

Animals don't have rules on how to behave, there might be some
very
primal ones based on picking order, power.

for example, a coyote doesn't give a damn that there is a rule
not
to
attack poodles, the only reason for it not to attack the poodle
is if
it
were more dangerous for the coyote then for the poodle.

Evolution does have NOTHING to do with rules, it is a pattern, "a
scientific law" that  is assumed and proven because of
observations.


Also, you cannot compare something, with something else that is
false
or
doesn't make sense,  that is nonsense, a moot point in any
argument.



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 17:07 -0600, R C wrote:
> On 6/29/21 4:54 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > Could you please try to avoid reading too literally and instead try
> > to
> > understand the broad sense of what I write?
> 
> I can try, but I am not good at reading minds, it's not my problem
> you 
> didn't say what you meant.


I said exactly what I meant, but for some (unknow to me) reason you
don't interpret it as I do: I presume that good organization is
necessary to avoid the chaos that can sometimes arise in human
interactions. The fact that LinuxCNC succeeded without organization is
pure luck in my opinion, in general human communities organize
themselves to avoid being overwhelmed by chaos and to facilitate the
resolution of internal conflicts.


> 
> Also, I changed my mind  ..
> 
> hey all, can we still have that CoC? with that one rule in it that
> said 
> something about not telling others what to do, or something like
> that.
> 
> 
> > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:39 -0600, R C wrote:
> > > On 6/29/21 4:19 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:29 -0500, Bari wrote:
> > > > > On 6/29/21 4:12 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > again, eccept for an evasive and dumb answer, there is
> > > > > > > still
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > why...
> > > > > > > let me guess,  you don't really have one other then a
> > > > > > > controlling
> > > > > > > vague one.
> > > > > > The why is evident, we don't live in a ruleless world, even
> > > > > > nature
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > animal groups have their survival rules.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > It is a question of survival of the community as a cohesive
> > > > > > group.
> > > > > I thought that LCNC is an open source software project. What
> > > > > is
> > > > > this
> > > > > dramatic talk of animal survival?
> > > > as humans we are evoluted animals and human collectivity
> > > > follows
> > > > the
> > > > same survival rules. That is only for comparison.
> > > those are not rules, those are laws deducted from what is
> > > observed,
> > > same/similar to  physical laws (like the law of gravity).
> > > 
> > > Animals don't have rules on how to behave, there might be some
> > > very
> > > primal ones based on picking order, power.
> > > 
> > > for example, a coyote doesn't give a damn that there is a rule
> > > not
> > > to
> > > attack poodles, the only reason for it not to attack the poodle
> > > is if
> > > it
> > > were more dangerous for the coyote then for the poodle.
> > > 
> > > Evolution does have NOTHING to do with rules, it is a pattern, "a
> > > scientific law" that  is assumed and proven because of
> > > observations.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Also, you cannot compare something, with something else that is
> > > false
> > > or
> > > doesn't make sense,  that is nonsense, a moot point in any
> > > argument.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > ___
> > > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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> > 
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 4:54 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

Could you please try to avoid reading too literally and instead try to
understand the broad sense of what I write?


I can try, but I am not good at reading minds, it's not my problem you 
didn't say what you meant.



Also, I changed my mind  ..

hey all, can we still have that CoC? with that one rule in it that said 
something about not telling others what to do, or something like that.





On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:39 -0600, R C wrote:

On 6/29/21 4:19 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:29 -0500, Bari wrote:

On 6/29/21 4:12 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:


again, eccept for an evasive and dumb answer, there is still
no
why...
let me guess,  you don't really have one other then a
controlling
vague one.

The why is evident, we don't live in a ruleless world, even
nature
and
animal groups have their survival rules.

It is a question of survival of the community as a cohesive
group.

I thought that LCNC is an open source software project. What is
this
dramatic talk of animal survival?

as humans we are evoluted animals and human collectivity follows
the
same survival rules. That is only for comparison.

those are not rules, those are laws deducted from what is observed,
same/similar to  physical laws (like the law of gravity).

Animals don't have rules on how to behave, there might be some very
primal ones based on picking order, power.

for example, a coyote doesn't give a damn that there is a rule not
to
attack poodles, the only reason for it not to attack the poodle is if
it
were more dangerous for the coyote then for the poodle.

Evolution does have NOTHING to do with rules, it is a pattern, "a
scientific law" that  is assumed and proven because of observations.


Also, you cannot compare something, with something else that is false
or
doesn't make sense,  that is nonsense, a moot point in any argument.




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Re: [Emc-users] Z stepper losing position

> From: Viesturs Lacis [mailto:viesturs.la...@gmail.com]
> Hello!
> 
> I have a question about a machine that I converted to LinuxCNC 5 or 6
> years ago. It is a  4 axis mill that is used for making jewelry -
> milling wax parts that are then turned into nice things with lost-wax
> technique.
> 
> The issue is that Z axis is losing height. That is best observed, when
> the milling is done with rotary head. Here is an example - the height
> difference of first passes vs last passes is approximately 1 mm:
> https://www.picpasteplus.com/v.php?i=507b0d6be4
> 
> The thing is that the client told me about this problem few years ago,
> but then it somehow disappeared or at least the position error was not
> that huge and it was possible to fix the wax part before proceeding.
> 
> Machine is running 2.7.4 version. Here are the INI and HAL files:
> https://pastebin.com/N7tk8nnW
> https://pastebin.com/epyUVbpp
> 
> I am convinced that all the possible mechanical causes have been
> checked. For the final check, we brought Z axis to particular
> position, marked motor shaft placement regarding motor case, then did
> the milling and afterwards brought it back to the same position -
> marks on motor shaft _did not_ match the case.
> 
> I changed the feedrate and acceleration values 2x lower just to make
> sure that machine was not missing steps. Or is it still missing steps?
> 
> So I would like to ask for some ideas, what else should I try and where to 
> look.
> 
> Viesturs
> 

It's possible that your couplers are slipping on the shaft.   I see in the INI 
file you don't have home operations enabled on Z?  

Without that absolute physical reference you can't know for sure that you have 
stepper motor skipping or a slight rotation of motor to transmission.  That a 
return to the same co-ordinate is different mechanically doesn't rule out 
mechanical slippage. 

For example.  If you had a home switch and homed again after the missed Z 
position and then found it was back to the same target position but the mark 
relative to the motor case is now different then you have physical slippage.  

If after homing and movement to the target position and the marks once again 
line up then you are losing steps.  If that’s the case determine if it's a full 
step (1/200) of a motor turn or is it a fraction of that.   It's possible, as 
Gene is so fond of saying, that your optical isolators have aged and are 
slowing down and a step doesn't quite make it through although at 10uS per step 
that's likely not an issue.

Something to look at...

John Dammeyer






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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Matt Shaver

I live close to Westminster, MD, and I see "Be Kind" signs all the
time. They look like a crayon and are various colors. Until this thread
started, I never looked in to their story, but this controversy piqued
my interest and I found this explanation:

https://littlethings.com/entertainment/be-kind-signs

When I first began to see them, my reaction was something like, "Don't
tell me how to be!", but it didn't take long for my attitude to reverse
itself, and now it's kind of an adventure to spot them while driving
around. I like to think I'm generally kind, so I don't think they've
affected my behavior, and their presence around here costs me nothing.
I've never met their creator, but he hasn't offended me a bit by
putting his kindness advice in writing.

I think I'll simply copy this attitude over to the code of conduct
issue. It will likely never affect me (or most anyone else on these
lists as far as I can tell). I know Jeff (and Seb who actually did the
expected thing and committed an edit he felt was needed), and I trust
their judgment.

Thanks,
Matt


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

Could you please try to avoid reading too literally and instead try to
understand the broad sense of what I write?


On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:39 -0600, R C wrote:
> On 6/29/21 4:19 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:29 -0500, Bari wrote:
> > > On 6/29/21 4:12 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > again, eccept for an evasive and dumb answer, there is still
> > > > > no
> > > > > why...
> > > > > let me guess,  you don't really have one other then a
> > > > > controlling
> > > > > vague one.
> > > > The why is evident, we don't live in a ruleless world, even
> > > > nature
> > > > and
> > > > animal groups have their survival rules.
> > > > 
> > > > It is a question of survival of the community as a cohesive
> > > > group.
> > > I thought that LCNC is an open source software project. What is
> > > this
> > > dramatic talk of animal survival?
> > as humans we are evoluted animals and human collectivity follows
> > the
> > same survival rules. That is only for comparison.
> 
> those are not rules, those are laws deducted from what is observed,  
> same/similar to  physical laws (like the law of gravity).
> 
> Animals don't have rules on how to behave, there might be some very 
> primal ones based on picking order, power.
> 
> for example, a coyote doesn't give a damn that there is a rule not
> to 
> attack poodles, the only reason for it not to attack the poodle is if
> it 
> were more dangerous for the coyote then for the poodle.
> 
> Evolution does have NOTHING to do with rules, it is a pattern, "a 
> scientific law" that  is assumed and proven because of observations.
> 
> 
> Also, you cannot compare something, with something else that is false
> or 
> doesn't make sense,  that is nonsense, a moot point in any argument.
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 4:28 PM, David Bagby wrote:


On 6/29/2021, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

the
vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC which
is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.


I've been monitoring this list since about 2002. I mostly just read 
and stay informed as best I can.  I've been trying to stay out of this 
topic, but I just can't - it seems to me that an obvious "management 
error" has been made.


I won't claim to know much about a majority of open source projects, 
but I'll assume the above quoted statement is true.


The second part of the statement does a good job of describing why 
there is controversy over, and discussion of the sudden appearance of 
a CoC.


As far as I know, a CoC for LinuxCNC was NOT "created, reviewed and 
accepted by community members".  It was just simply announced as a 
fait accomli.


Thus it should not be a surprise that there is was no consensus re its 
contents within the community, or that there appears to be little to 
zero by-in from the members of the community.  It's natural for people 
see question anything that suddenly get imposed on them.


This does raise the question of "imposed by whom"?   I am unaware of 
any current, formally functioning LCNC management organization which 
the community members would be predisposed to accept this from. So I'm 
not surprised that the general reaction is differing levels of WTF.


In my humble opinion, whoever (be that one or more people) worked in 
the background to give LCNC a new CoC and then simply announced has 
rather grossly overstepped their (presumed) authority.


Dave


well, the ones that are "well organized",  like Centos and some other 
large opensource projects for example, are way more organized,  with a 
corporate like structure, large amounts of money/grants etc. (look at 
how big RedHat is/was) but somehow always manage to get themselves in 
trouble, financially, legally etc.


linux cnc, I believe formerly emc2 (was it??) has been around for a long 
time, maybe that is why?






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Re: [Emc-users] Mounting spindle sensors.

Good point.  Thanks
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Les Newell [mailto:les.new...@fastmail.co.uk]
> Sent: June-29-21 3:22 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mounting spindle sensors.
> 
> > When the drawing is rotated you can actually see the sensors are offset so 
> > one looks at the tooth and one at the slot between.
> 
> That spacing gives you 180 degree phasing. You want 90 degree, so when
> one sensor sees an edge, the other should see the centre of a tooth or
> slot. It's an easy mistake to make. I see your drawing allows for plenty
> of adjustment so you would have been able to fix it anyway.
> 
> Les
> 
> On 29/06/2021 23:09, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > Thanks Les,
> > You can't quite see it in the photo but there's even an arc slot inward a 
> > tad to serve as the index.  So a total of 3 slotted sensors are
> sitting on my desk.
> >
> > This was the overly complex plan A.  When the drawing is rotated you can 
> > actually see the sensors are offset so one looks at the
> tooth and one at the slot between.
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

So it be. Andy, my apologies for trying to support the adoption of a
CoC, either the one proposed by Jeff or that of W3C as I proposed.
Evidently the idea of being an organized community doesn't appeal to
LinuxCNC users. I don't understand why there is so much opposition,
after all it is assumed that an organized community is able to work
better and with more personal satisfaction for all the participants,
and instead in this case a terrible conflict has broken out.

Regards



On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 23:01 +0100, andy pugh wrote:
> There seems to be a serious misunderstanding developing here about
> how
> LinuxCNC is organised.
> 
> It isn't.
> 
> Really not at all.
> 
> All LinuxCNC has is a web page, a github, a buildbot, a code-base and
> a bunch of contributors.
> 
> Some contributors have admin rights on the web server, and some have
> push rights on the github. (I have both of these things) But that
> doesn't make me part of "The management" or mean that I have some
> agenda.
> And the same is true of Jeff. He is a supremely valuable contributor
> to the LinuxCNC code-base (I think that he has written more lines of
> code than almost any other contributor[1])  but I very much doubt
> that
> he has any particular political agenda to push.
> (If I had to guess, and it would be a guess, because we haven't
> discussed it,  it would be that Jeff is worried about trouble looming
> if we don't have a CoC).
> 
> Don't go imagining that there are Machiavellian intrigues going on in
> back-channels. We are not that organised.
> 
> Nobody is in charge, there is no committee, there is no board of
> directors. Things only get done if one person decides that something
> should be done, and then does it.
> 
> [1] 
> https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/graphs/contributors?from=2003-10-05=2021-06-29=a
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] 2.8.2 Release


Thank you for the new release!

On 6/28/21 2:25 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 at 07:47, jrmitchellj  wrote:


Andy, if you are going to spin up a new ISO,  It would be really nice to
include/install pciutils in the package.

That's one of the reasons that I am planning a new ISO. The ISO source
is already updated.
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/buster-live-build/blob/master/config/package-lists/desktop.list




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread David Bagby



On 6/29/2021, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

the
vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC which
is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.


I've been monitoring this list since about 2002. I mostly just read and 
stay informed as best I can.  I've been trying to stay out of this 
topic, but I just can't - it seems to me that an obvious "management 
error" has been made.


I won't claim to know much about a majority of open source projects, but 
I'll assume the above quoted statement is true.


The second part of the statement does a good job of describing why there 
is controversy over, and discussion of the sudden appearance of a CoC.


As far as I know, a CoC for LinuxCNC was NOT "created, reviewed and 
accepted by community members".  It was just simply announced as a fait 
accomli.


Thus it should not be a surprise that there is was no consensus re its 
contents within the community, or that there appears to be little to 
zero by-in from the members of the community.  It's natural for people 
see question anything that suddenly get imposed on them.


This does raise the question of "imposed by whom"?   I am unaware of any 
current, formally functioning LCNC management organization which the 
community members would be predisposed to accept this from. So I'm not 
surprised that the general reaction is differing levels of WTF.


In my humble opinion, whoever (be that one or more people) worked in the 
background to give LCNC a new CoC and then simply announced has rather 
grossly overstepped their (presumed) authority.


Dave




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 4:19 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:29 -0500, Bari wrote:

On 6/29/21 4:12 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:


again, eccept for an evasive and dumb answer, there is still no
why...
let me guess,  you don't really have one other then a controlling
vague one.

The why is evident, we don't live in a ruleless world, even nature
and
animal groups have their survival rules.

It is a question of survival of the community as a cohesive group.

I thought that LCNC is an open source software project. What is this
dramatic talk of animal survival?

as humans we are evoluted animals and human collectivity follows the
same survival rules. That is only for comparison.


those are not rules, those are laws deducted from what is observed,  
same/similar to  physical laws (like the law of gravity).


Animals don't have rules on how to behave, there might be some very 
primal ones based on picking order, power.


for example, a coyote doesn't give a damn that there is a rule not to 
attack poodles, the only reason for it not to attack the poodle is if it 
were more dangerous for the coyote then for the poodle.


Evolution does have NOTHING to do with rules, it is a pattern, "a 
scientific law" that  is assumed and proven because of observations.



Also, you cannot compare something, with something else that is false or 
doesn't make sense,  that is nonsense, a moot point in any argument.







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Re: [Emc-users] Mounting spindle sensors.

On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 23:25, Les Newell  wrote:

> That spacing gives you 180 degree phasing. You want 90 degree, so when
> one sensor sees an edge, the other should see the centre of a tooth or
> slot. It's an easy mistake to make.

It is, I have made it.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DhSnrWtAd5AvszEw8
Had to try again:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/6nEevs5cDpYT54dLA

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 4:01 PM, andy pugh wrote:

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding developing here about how
LinuxCNC is organised.

It isn't.

Really not at all.

All LinuxCNC has is a web page, a github, a buildbot, a code-base and
a bunch of contributors.

Some contributors have admin rights on the web server, and some have
push rights on the github. (I have both of these things) But that
doesn't make me part of "The management" or mean that I have some
agenda.
And the same is true of Jeff. He is a supremely valuable contributor
to the LinuxCNC code-base (I think that he has written more lines of
code than almost any other contributor[1])  but I very much doubt that
he has any particular political agenda to push.
(If I had to guess, and it would be a guess, because we haven't
discussed it,  it would be that Jeff is worried about trouble looming
if we don't have a CoC).


Well,  the lists are on here (sourceforge),  and the 'stuff' is on 
github (good idea actually).


I assume that sourceforge wants compliance, with how they are organized. 
The list being 'private' moderated/administered, you could just throw 
anyone off who's posts you don't like, especially of course, when 
illegal etc.


I don't think the real trouble is in having a CoC or not. Companies etc 
tend to have one as "a stick behind the door" more for "personnel 
management" then anything else. Except for some name guessing you don't 
know if anyone is male/female, where from etc etc. and it doesn't look 
like anyone was ever denied on here for things that typically could get 
you in trouble, simple because you don't know and don't care other then 
someone being interested in hooking up a stepper motor, or how to thread 
a bolt. I don't know how admins deal with "deleting user accounts", but 
from what I see on the list, that doesn't seem to happen often (or at 
least I don't have the impression it does.)



On social media, like FB etc,  there are people going at each others 
throats about differences of opinion on what drive through lane to use 
at McD (yeah I am not kidding)  threaten each other over it too.  
Doesn't look like you have anything similar here about CNC stuff. (this 
CoC thing is probably one of the most "flared up" threads I have ever 
seen.)  I am not a legal person, but it doesn't look like there's much 
to worry about,  especially since  the repos,  mailing lists etc seem 
separate. Besides, I think,  if you'd have a CoC, you might actually  
have something that people actually CAN complain about, about it not 
being inclusive enough, because you forgot to mention some group, OR it 
being derogatory, illegal etc etc.  Maybe not being too organized, as 
you mentioned, is a good thing, then there's not much to complain about 
either.  Now it looks like a bunch of people maintaining something "for 
fun", some more that volunterely contribute,  and then there this list 
where anyone can talk/ask/chat about it.



if you get too organized, you might just end up somewhere, where no one 
wants to be.



but that's just my 2 cts


Ron





Don't go imagining that there are Machiavellian intrigues going on in
back-channels. We are not that organised.

Nobody is in charge, there is no committee, there is no board of
directors. Things only get done if one person decides that something
should be done, and then does it.

[1] 
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/graphs/contributors?from=2003-10-05=2021-06-29=a




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[Emc-users] Z stepper losing position

2021-06-29 Thread Viesturs Lācis

Hello!

I have a question about a machine that I converted to LinuxCNC 5 or 6
years ago. It is a  4 axis mill that is used for making jewelry -
milling wax parts that are then turned into nice things with lost-wax
technique.

The issue is that Z axis is losing height. That is best observed, when
the milling is done with rotary head. Here is an example - the height
difference of first passes vs last passes is approximately 1 mm:
https://www.picpasteplus.com/v.php?i=507b0d6be4

The thing is that the client told me about this problem few years ago,
but then it somehow disappeared or at least the position error was not
that huge and it was possible to fix the wax part before proceeding.

Machine is running 2.7.4 version. Here are the INI and HAL files:
https://pastebin.com/N7tk8nnW
https://pastebin.com/epyUVbpp

I am convinced that all the possible mechanical causes have been
checked. For the final check, we brought Z axis to particular
position, marked motor shaft placement regarding motor case, then did
the milling and afterwards brought it back to the same position -
marks on motor shaft _did not_ match the case.

I changed the feedrate and acceleration values 2x lower just to make
sure that machine was not missing steps. Or is it still missing steps?

So I would like to ask for some ideas, what else should I try and where to look.

Viesturs


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Re: [Emc-users] Mounting spindle sensors.


When the drawing is rotated you can actually see the sensors are offset so one 
looks at the tooth and one at the slot between.


That spacing gives you 180 degree phasing. You want 90 degree, so when 
one sensor sees an edge, the other should see the centre of a tooth or 
slot. It's an easy mistake to make. I see your drawing allows for plenty 
of adjustment so you would have been able to fix it anyway.


Les

On 29/06/2021 23:09, John Dammeyer wrote:

Thanks Les,
You can't quite see it in the photo but there's even an arc slot inward a tad 
to serve as the index.  So a total of 3 slotted sensors are sitting on my desk.
  
This was the overly complex plan A.  When the drawing is rotated you can actually see the sensors are offset so one looks at the tooth and one at the slot between.
  

  




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 16:29 -0500, Bari wrote:
> On 6/29/21 4:12 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> 
> > > again, eccept for an evasive and dumb answer, there is still no
> > > why...
> > > let me guess,  you don't really have one other then a controlling
> > > vague one.
> > The why is evident, we don't live in a ruleless world, even nature
> > and
> > animal groups have their survival rules.
> > 
> > It is a question of survival of the community as a cohesive group.
> I thought that LCNC is an open source software project. What is this 
> dramatic talk of animal survival?

as humans we are evoluted animals and human collectivity follows the
same survival rules. That is only for comparison.




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 15:17 -0600, R C wrote:
> On 6/29/21 3:07 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 15:45 -0500, Bari wrote:
> > > On 6/29/21 3:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:
> > > > > On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > > > The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > respect
> > > > > > to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will
> > > > > > provided
> > > > > > that you act as the CoC says.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > 
> > > > > and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no
> > > > > way
> > > > > you
> > > > > can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating
> > > > > rules
> > > > > for
> > > > > what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
> > > > > countries
> > > > > where you can happily follow those rules.
> > > > This is what I think:
> > > > 
> > > > The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior
> > > > is
> > > > to
> > > > act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee
> > > > and
> > > > provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and
> > > > do
> > > > this
> > > > kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the
> > > > community
> > > > aggregation and mutual respect.
> > > > 
> > > > I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a
> > > > CoC,
> > > > the
> > > > vast majority of open source projects around the world has a
> > > > CoC
> > > > which
> > > > is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.
> > > > 
> > > > The only point I can make is that we need a community revision
> > > > and
> > > > voting of the CoC.
> > > > 
> > > > Regards
> > > > 
> > > The problem is with what is perceived as acceptable and by whom.
> > > Different people perceive things differently based on their
> > > background,
> > > experiences, education, parenting, intelligence, age,
> > > environment,
> > > country they live in, etc. etc.
> > > 
> > > Another thing to consider is what is LinuxCNC? What is the board
> > > of
> > > directors? is this a democracy or a dictatorship or something
> > > else?
> > 
> > It is incredible that after so many years those questions are still
> > open. They should have been resolved many years ago, when the
> > community
> > was born.
> > 
> > > Who
> > > decides which persons that this applies to? Users, persons in
> > > IRC,
> > > developers that wish to have their code included in the main
> > > distribution, forum posters, etc who is this for and what is the
> > > real
> > > reason for this?
> > > 
> > > It is a slippery slope.
> > Usually the leadership is voted and elected by members, and the CoC
> > should be applied to *everything* involving the community, so
> > Users,
> > persons in IRC, developers that wish to have their code included in
> > the
> > main distribution, forum posters, visitors, external experts, and
> > this
> > is not an exhaustive list.
> 
> You made a spelling mistake,  it is not spelled "leadership",  it 
> typically is spelled "corrupt politicians"  or "business major with
> a 
> bloated ego"
> 
> 
> If it was leadership,  you'd go do something ..  and the rest would
> be 
> following behind you,  which doesn't seem to be the case.



But I do not see any corrupted politician or business major with a
bloated ego in the LinuxCNC community.

Can I ask you to avoid writing to me privately please?






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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct


On 6/29/21 5:01 PM, andy pugh wrote:


Don't go imagining that there are Machiavellian intrigues going on in
back-channels. We are not that organised.



Isn't that just what a Machiavellian back channel organizer would say?  :)



Nobody is in charge, there is no committee, there is no board of
directors. Things only get done if one person decides that something
should be done, and then does it.



Thank you. Can we go back to Laissez-faire now?



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Re: [Emc-users] Mounting spindle sensors.

Thanks Les,
You can't quite see it in the photo but there's even an arc slot inward a tad 
to serve as the index.  So a total of 3 slotted sensors are sitting on my desk.
 
This was the overly complex plan A.  When the drawing is rotated you can 
actually see the sensors are offset so one looks at the tooth and one at the 
slot between.
 

 
> -Original Message-
> From: Les Newell [mailto:les.new...@fastmail.co.uk]
> Sent: June-29-21 3:00 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mounting spindle sensors.
> 
> I have to admit I'd be tempted to go really basic. Bend a piece of strip
> steel into a L shape. Drill a 10mm hole in one leg for one of the
> mounting bolts to go through. Mount two slotted sensors such as these
> <  
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201613548203?epid=1293723330> on another
> piece of steel.� Hold everything in place temporarily and tack the two
> steel pieces together.
> 
> You need to be a bit careful to ensure the sensors are spaced correctly.
> When one is looking at the edge of a tooth the other needs to be looking
> at the centre of a gap or the centre of a tooth.
> 
> Les
> 
> On 29/06/2021 22:31, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > I often have trouble coming up with simple solutions.
> >
> > Attached the photo of my encoder disk made from aluminium so slotted or 
> > reflective sensors would be required.  My first idea of a
> clamp around the casting to hold the sensors really didn't work out.
> >
> > The bolts holding the upper casting down are 10x1.5-35mm bolts and there's 
> > a flat machined area in the casting for the lock
> washer and bolt head.  It's really hard to determine exactly what the bolt 
> circle is but a guess of 120mm between bolts creates
> roughly 84.8 radius circle.
> >
> > What if I turned out two spacers? Clamped them in place and then welded a 
> > bracket to them.  Or even just a curved piece with
> much larger holes clamped down to allow some tweaking for fit.  Then maybe 
> spot weld in place with final welding off the machine.
> >
> > Then on this plate mounted the sensors.
> >
> > Good idea?  Or also doomed to failure?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> > John Dammeyer
> >
> >
> > "ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"
> > Automation Artisans Inc.
> > www dot autoartisans dot com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
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> >   
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct




On 6/29/21 4:00 PM, Bari wrote:
I'm not singling anyone out. I find these CoC's to be mostly 
hypocritical. Especially by large corporations. Codes of ethics for 
subordinates, ruthless and lawless behavior by those at the head, 
e.g., just don't get caught. But hypocrisy seems to be in vogue along 
with CoC's.



My experience too, and I work for a very large 'institution', once you 
let that happen to you, you're pretty much done.




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding developing here about how
LinuxCNC is organised.

It isn't.

Really not at all.

All LinuxCNC has is a web page, a github, a buildbot, a code-base and
a bunch of contributors.

Some contributors have admin rights on the web server, and some have
push rights on the github. (I have both of these things) But that
doesn't make me part of "The management" or mean that I have some
agenda.
And the same is true of Jeff. He is a supremely valuable contributor
to the LinuxCNC code-base (I think that he has written more lines of
code than almost any other contributor[1])  but I very much doubt that
he has any particular political agenda to push.
(If I had to guess, and it would be a guess, because we haven't
discussed it,  it would be that Jeff is worried about trouble looming
if we don't have a CoC).

Don't go imagining that there are Machiavellian intrigues going on in
back-channels. We are not that organised.

Nobody is in charge, there is no committee, there is no board of
directors. Things only get done if one person decides that something
should be done, and then does it.

[1] 
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/graphs/contributors?from=2003-10-05=2021-06-29=a

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

I'm not singling anyone out. I find these CoC's to be mostly 
hypocritical. Especially by large corporations. Codes of ethics for 
subordinates, ruthless and lawless behavior by those at the head, e.g., 
just don't get caught. But hypocrisy seems to be in vogue along with CoC's.



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Re: [Emc-users] Mounting spindle sensors.

I have to admit I'd be tempted to go really basic. Bend a piece of strip
steel into a L shape. Drill a 10mm hole in one leg for one of the
mounting bolts to go through. Mount two slotted sensors such as these
on another
piece of steel. Hold everything in place temporarily and tack the two
steel pieces together.

You need to be a bit careful to ensure the sensors are spaced correctly.
When one is looking at the edge of a tooth the other needs to be looking
at the centre of a gap or the centre of a tooth.

Les

On 29/06/2021 22:31, John Dammeyer wrote:

I often have trouble coming up with simple solutions.

Attached the photo of my encoder disk made from aluminium so slotted or reflective sensors would be required. My first idea of a clamp around the casting to hold the sensors really didn't work out.

The bolts holding the upper casting down are 10x1.5-35mm bolts and there's a flat machined area in the casting for the lock washer and bolt head. It's really hard to determine exactly what the bolt circle is but a guess of 120mm between bolts creates roughly 84.8 radius circle.

What if I turned out two spacers? Clamped them in place and then welded a bracket to them. Or even just a curved piece with much larger holes clamped down to allow some tweaking for fit. Then maybe spot weld in place with final welding off the machine.

Then on this plate mounted the sensors.

Good idea? Or also doomed to failure?

Thanks

John Dammeyer

"ELS! Nothing else works as well for your Lathe"

Automation Artisans Inc.
www dot autoartisans dot com

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Re: [Emc-users] Mounting spindle sensors.

On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 22:34, John Dammeyer  wrote:
>
> I often have trouble coming up with simple solutions.

How about taking out two of the bolts that are visible and drilling
and tapping a small hole in their heads. Then use those holes to affix
a bracket to hold your sensor?
This avoids trying to do any machining / drilling inside that area,
and is completely reversible for the price of two bolts.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 3:37 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:

Anno domini 2021 Tue, 29 Jun 22:53:12 +0200
  Valerio Bellizzomi scripsit:

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 14:32 -0600, R C wrote:

On 6/29/21 2:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:

On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with
respect
to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will
provided
that you act as the CoC says.

Regards


and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no way
you
can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating
rules
for
what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
countries
where you can happily follow those rules.

This is what I think:

The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is
to
act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do
this
kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
aggregation and mutual respect.

right, most normal/decent people know that is expected behavior, so
it
is pointless to re-iterate, and mosyly turns into something
manipulative.


I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC,
the
vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC
which
is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.

Because it is pointless.  There still has not been given an urgent
reason for doing this kinda left-ish thing.


I make a point of that all the time, also at work, where they have
several of these things.


Reason?  Oh an upper management person  once said it was needed
"because
everyone deserves to be respected, and by the end of the day can go
home
being happy they accomplished something"

I questioned him "Why?"  ..  except for a lot of "uh"-s no real
answer.
Of course not,  because there are no reasons to do that..  it's
management porn.



The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
voting of the CoC.

why?  seriously, make a pressing point of  why.



Regards


Ron


I cannot comment on what you do at work. However this is how things
work in a human society, we need to state very clearly what are the
leadership actions to do in case controvercies need to be resolved, and
state what is expected behavior and unacceptable behavior from
community members, so that everybody knows that staying in the
community involves some kind of mental and behavioral engagement. This
is necessary to avoid irrimediable conflicts that can lead to
destruction of the community.

I'm happy to see that LinuxCNC community has survived so long without a
CoC. That said every community needs a CoC mostly as an assurance to
external people that they can join the community without fear.

Sorry, but this total bs.

I would suggest that all people voting for CoC make a mailinglist 
"emc-users-...@lists.sourceforge.net" or better 
"coc-ems-us...@lists.sourceforge.net" 'cause  CoC is more important than LinuxCNC and 
users (who need users when we are the management?)

Nik



giving in to that, is 'their' first step.

I think that, and this thread,  should go to the tweet community..  and 
leave this alone.








Regards




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 3:29 PM, Bari wrote:

On 6/29/21 4:12 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:


again, eccept for an evasive and dumb answer, there is still no
why...
let me guess,  you don't really have one other then a controlling
vague one.

The why is evident, we don't live in a ruleless world, even nature and
animal groups have their survival rules.

It is a question of survival of the community as a cohesive group.
I thought that LCNC is an open source software project. What is this 
dramatic talk of animal survival?



liberal arts debate strategy (stating something as an undeniably fact 
(even if wrong or unrelated), and then associate it or make it parallel 
to their debate topic to make an argument. )






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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

Anno domini 2021 Tue, 29 Jun 22:53:12 +0200
 Valerio Bellizzomi scripsit:
> On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 14:32 -0600, R C wrote:
> > On 6/29/21 2:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:
> > > > On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > > The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with
> > > > > respect
> > > > > to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will
> > > > > provided
> > > > > that you act as the CoC says.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards
> > > > > 
> > > > and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no way
> > > > you
> > > > can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating
> > > > rules
> > > > for
> > > > what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
> > > > countries
> > > > where you can happily follow those rules.
> > > 
> > > This is what I think:
> > > 
> > > The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is
> > > to
> > > act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
> > > provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do
> > > this
> > > kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
> > > aggregation and mutual respect.
> > 
> > right, most normal/decent people know that is expected behavior, so
> > it 
> > is pointless to re-iterate, and mosyly turns into something
> > manipulative.
> > 
> > > I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC,
> > > the
> > > vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC
> > > which
> > > is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.
> > 
> > Because it is pointless.  There still has not been given an urgent 
> > reason for doing this kinda left-ish thing.
> > 
> > 
> > I make a point of that all the time, also at work, where they have 
> > several of these things.
> > 
> > 
> > Reason?  Oh an upper management person  once said it was needed
> > "because 
> > everyone deserves to be respected, and by the end of the day can go
> > home 
> > being happy they accomplished something"
> > 
> > I questioned him "Why?"  ..  except for a lot of "uh"-s no real
> > answer.  
> > Of course not,  because there are no reasons to do that..  it's 
> > management porn.
> > 
> > 
> > > The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
> > > voting of the CoC.
> > 
> > why?  seriously, make a pressing point of  why.
> > 
> > 
> > > Regards
> > > 
> > Ron
> 
> 
> I cannot comment on what you do at work. However this is how things
> work in a human society, we need to state very clearly what are the
> leadership actions to do in case controvercies need to be resolved, and
> state what is expected behavior and unacceptable behavior from
> community members, so that everybody knows that staying in the
> community involves some kind of mental and behavioral engagement. This
> is necessary to avoid irrimediable conflicts that can lead to
> destruction of the community.
> 
> I'm happy to see that LinuxCNC community has survived so long without a
> CoC. That said every community needs a CoC mostly as an assurance to
> external people that they can join the community without fear.

Sorry, but this total bs. 

I would suggest that all people voting for CoC make a mailinglist 
"emc-users-...@lists.sourceforge.net" or better 
"coc-ems-us...@lists.sourceforge.net" 'cause  CoC is more important than 
LinuxCNC and users (who need users when we are the management?)

Nik



> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 



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Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA, CIA ...


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct


On 29/06/2021 22:06, R C wrote:


Are you trying to organize this thing,  take over and sell it or so? 



Huh? How did you get that impression? As an occasional contributor to 
LinuxCNC, my experience has always been as I stated. I submitted the 
code, there was a little bit of discussion and it either went into the 
source tree or not. The end. I've seen the same for other contributions. 
Jeff has done an awful lot of work for the project in the past. The last 
thing we need to do is raise a shit storm and chase off people who are 
contributing to the code and administration. As a project, LinuxCNC is 
desperately short of people actually willing to do work on it.


The sad thing is that in 6 months everyone will have forgotten about 
this and the list will continue just as it was, with or without a CoC.


Les



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct


On 6/29/21 4:12 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:


again, eccept for an evasive and dumb answer, there is still no
why...
let me guess,  you don't really have one other then a controlling
vague one.

The why is evident, we don't live in a ruleless world, even nature and
animal groups have their survival rules.

It is a question of survival of the community as a cohesive group.
I thought that LCNC is an open source software project. What is this 
dramatic talk of animal survival?



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct


On 6/29/21 4:07 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:


The problem is with what is perceived as acceptable and by whom.
Different people perceive things differently based on their
background,
experiences, education, parenting, intelligence, age, environment,
country they live in, etc. etc.

Another thing to consider is what is LinuxCNC? What is the board of
directors? is this a democracy or a dictatorship or something else?

It is incredible that after so many years those questions are still
open. They should have been resolved many years ago, when the community
was born.

This might have been defined many years ago. Is any of this still true? 
Does the truth matter anyway?



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 3:07 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 15:45 -0500, Bari wrote:

On 6/29/21 3:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:


On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:

On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with
respect
to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will
provided
that you act as the CoC says.

Regards


and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no way
you
can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating
rules
for
what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
countries
where you can happily follow those rules.

This is what I think:

The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is
to
act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do
this
kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
aggregation and mutual respect.

I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC,
the
vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC
which
is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.

The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
voting of the CoC.

Regards


The problem is with what is perceived as acceptable and by whom.
Different people perceive things differently based on their
background,
experiences, education, parenting, intelligence, age, environment,
country they live in, etc. etc.

Another thing to consider is what is LinuxCNC? What is the board of
directors? is this a democracy or a dictatorship or something else?


It is incredible that after so many years those questions are still
open. They should have been resolved many years ago, when the community
was born.


Who
decides which persons that this applies to? Users, persons in IRC,
developers that wish to have their code included in the main
distribution, forum posters, etc who is this for and what is the
real
reason for this?

It is a slippery slope.

Usually the leadership is voted and elected by members, and the CoC
should be applied to *everything* involving the community, so Users,
persons in IRC, developers that wish to have their code included in the
main distribution, forum posters, visitors, external experts, and this
is not an exhaustive list.


You made a spelling mistake,  it is not spelled "leadership",  it 
typically is spelled "corrupt politicians"  or "business major with a 
bloated ego"



If it was leadership,  you'd go do something ..  and the rest would be 
following behind you,  which doesn't seem to be the case.










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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 15:02 -0600, R C wrote:
> On 6/29/21 2:53 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 14:32 -0600, R C wrote:
> > > On 6/29/21 2:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:
> > > > > On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > > > The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > respect
> > > > > > to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will
> > > > > > provided
> > > > > > that you act as the CoC says.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > 
> > > > > and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no
> > > > > way
> > > > > you
> > > > > can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating
> > > > > rules
> > > > > for
> > > > > what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
> > > > > countries
> > > > > where you can happily follow those rules.
> > > > This is what I think:
> > > > 
> > > > The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior
> > > > is
> > > > to
> > > > act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee
> > > > and
> > > > provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and
> > > > do
> > > > this
> > > > kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the
> > > > community
> > > > aggregation and mutual respect.
> > > right, most normal/decent people know that is expected behavior,
> > > so
> > > it
> > > is pointless to re-iterate, and mosyly turns into something
> > > manipulative.
> > > 
> > > > I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a
> > > > CoC,
> > > > the
> > > > vast majority of open source projects around the world has a
> > > > CoC
> > > > which
> > > > is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.
> > > Because it is pointless.  There still has not been given an
> > > urgent
> > > reason for doing this kinda left-ish thing.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I make a point of that all the time, also at work, where they
> > > have
> > > several of these things.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Reason?  Oh an upper management person  once said it was needed
> > > "because
> > > everyone deserves to be respected, and by the end of the day can
> > > go
> > > home
> > > being happy they accomplished something"
> > > 
> > > I questioned him "Why?"  ..  except for a lot of "uh"-s no real
> > > answer.
> > > Of course not,  because there are no reasons to do that..  it's
> > > management porn.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > The only point I can make is that we need a community revision
> > > > and
> > > > voting of the CoC.
> > > why?  seriously, make a pressing point of  why.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Regards
> > > > 
> > > Ron
> > 
> > I cannot comment on what you do at work. However this is how things
> > work in a human society, we need to state very clearly what are the
> > leadership actions to do in case controvercies need to be resolved,
> > and
> > state what is expected behavior and unacceptable behavior from
> > community members, so that everybody knows that staying in the
> > community involves some kind of mental and behavioral engagement.
> > This
> > is necessary to avoid irrimediable conflicts that can lead to
> > destruction of the community.
> > 
> > I'm happy to see that LinuxCNC community has survived so long
> > without a
> > CoC. That said every community needs a CoC mostly as an assurance
> > to
> > external people that they can join the community without fear.
> 
> You still didn't say why,  except for a bunch of blabla leadership,  
> sounds like it has nothing to do  with neither linux, nor CNC.
> 
> 
> again, eccept for an evasive and dumb answer, there is still no
> why...   
> let me guess,  you don't really have one other then a controlling
> vague one.

The why is evident, we don't live in a ruleless world, even nature and
animal groups have their survival rules.

It is a question of survival of the community as a cohesive group.





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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 15:45 -0500, Bari wrote:
> On 6/29/21 3:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:
> > > On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with
> > > > respect
> > > > to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will
> > > > provided
> > > > that you act as the CoC says.
> > > > 
> > > > Regards
> > > > 
> > > and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no way
> > > you
> > > can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating
> > > rules
> > > for
> > > what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
> > > countries
> > > where you can happily follow those rules.
> > 
> > This is what I think:
> > 
> > The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is
> > to
> > act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
> > provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do
> > this
> > kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
> > aggregation and mutual respect.
> > 
> > I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC,
> > the
> > vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC
> > which
> > is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.
> > 
> > The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
> > voting of the CoC.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> The problem is with what is perceived as acceptable and by whom. 
> Different people perceive things differently based on their
> background, 
> experiences, education, parenting, intelligence, age, environment, 
> country they live in, etc. etc.
> 
> Another thing to consider is what is LinuxCNC? What is the board of 
> directors? is this a democracy or a dictatorship or something else? 


It is incredible that after so many years those questions are still
open. They should have been resolved many years ago, when the community
was born.

> Who 
> decides which persons that this applies to? Users, persons in IRC, 
> developers that wish to have their code included in the main 
> distribution, forum posters, etc who is this for and what is the
> real 
> reason for this?
> 
> It is a slippery slope.

Usually the leadership is voted and elected by members, and the CoC
should be applied to *everything* involving the community, so Users,
persons in IRC, developers that wish to have their code included in the
main distribution, forum posters, visitors, external experts, and this
is not an exhaustive list.





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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 2:57 PM, Les Newell wrote:
Valerio, I agree completely. I also think we should give Jeff a break 
here. LinuxCNC is a loosely organized group and things only really get 
done when someone sees a problem and tries to fix it. Many open source 
projects have a CoC so Jeff put something together, trying to help. He 
now pretty much gets accused of being a dictator.  I'm sure that is 
far from his intention.



The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
voting of the CoC.


Historically when someone comes up with a new feature they announce it 
on the list, there is a bit of discussion about it and in most cases 
it gets added to the source, possibly with some modification. No name 
calling or political posturing. That is probably closer to how Jeff 
expected this to go.



Are you trying to organize this thing,  take over and sell it or so?




Les


On 29/06/2021 21:21, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

This is what I think:

The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is to
act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do this
kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
aggregation and mutual respect.

I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC, the
vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC which
is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.

The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
voting of the CoC.

Regards




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct


yup..  there you go


looks like  that CoC is just a control mechanism,  let's see a year or 
so after this,  this list will be done.




who wants to start a new one?





On 6/29/21 2:59 PM, Bari wrote:

I forgot to include this link to a video in my last post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moWe3rk7LzQ

This was not satire.



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 2:53 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 14:32 -0600, R C wrote:

On 6/29/21 2:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:

On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with
respect
to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will
provided
that you act as the CoC says.

Regards


and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no way
you
can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating
rules
for
what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
countries
where you can happily follow those rules.

This is what I think:

The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is
to
act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do
this
kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
aggregation and mutual respect.

right, most normal/decent people know that is expected behavior, so
it
is pointless to re-iterate, and mosyly turns into something
manipulative.


I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC,
the
vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC
which
is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.

Because it is pointless.  There still has not been given an urgent
reason for doing this kinda left-ish thing.


I make a point of that all the time, also at work, where they have
several of these things.


Reason?  Oh an upper management person  once said it was needed
"because
everyone deserves to be respected, and by the end of the day can go
home
being happy they accomplished something"

I questioned him "Why?"  ..  except for a lot of "uh"-s no real
answer.
Of course not,  because there are no reasons to do that..  it's
management porn.



The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
voting of the CoC.

why?  seriously, make a pressing point of  why.



Regards


Ron


I cannot comment on what you do at work. However this is how things
work in a human society, we need to state very clearly what are the
leadership actions to do in case controvercies need to be resolved, and
state what is expected behavior and unacceptable behavior from
community members, so that everybody knows that staying in the
community involves some kind of mental and behavioral engagement. This
is necessary to avoid irrimediable conflicts that can lead to
destruction of the community.

I'm happy to see that LinuxCNC community has survived so long without a
CoC. That said every community needs a CoC mostly as an assurance to
external people that they can join the community without fear.


You still didn't say why,  except for a bunch of blabla leadership,  
sounds like it has nothing to do  with neither linux, nor CNC.



again, eccept for an evasive and dumb answer, there is still no why...   
let me guess,  you don't really have one other then a controlling vague one.





Regards




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct


I forgot to include this link to a video in my last post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moWe3rk7LzQ

This was not satire.



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

Valerio, I agree completely. I also think we should give Jeff a break 
here. LinuxCNC is a loosely organized group and things only really get 
done when someone sees a problem and tries to fix it. Many open source 
projects have a CoC so Jeff put something together, trying to help. He 
now pretty much gets accused of being a dictator.  I'm sure that is far 
from his intention.



The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
voting of the CoC.


Historically when someone comes up with a new feature they announce it 
on the list, there is a bit of discussion about it and in most cases it 
gets added to the source, possibly with some modification. No name 
calling or political posturing. That is probably closer to how Jeff 
expected this to go.


Les


On 29/06/2021 21:21, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

This is what I think:

The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is to
act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do this
kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
aggregation and mutual respect.

I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC, the
vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC which
is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.

The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
voting of the CoC.

Regards




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Re: [Emc-users] 3D Printing + LinuxCNC

2021-06-29 Thread Sam Sokolik

Really?  I am remembering similar to Todd..   t thought rotary circular arc
wasn't implemented yet...  (That would be exciting)

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 2:02 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 19:39, andrew beck 
> wrote:
> >
> > Mate it would be so good to get this 9 axis tp working. Have you tried
> it?
>
> No.
>
> I have had a brief conversation with the author about what it would
> take to merge it. But couldn't find the code to even attempt a merge.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 15:45 -0500, Bari wrote:
> On 6/29/21 3:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:
> > > On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with
> > > > respect
> > > > to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will
> > > > provided
> > > > that you act as the CoC says.
> > > > 
> > > > Regards
> > > > 
> > > and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no way
> > > you
> > > can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating
> > > rules
> > > for
> > > what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
> > > countries
> > > where you can happily follow those rules.
> > 
> > This is what I think:
> > 
> > The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is
> > to
> > act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
> > provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do
> > this
> > kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
> > aggregation and mutual respect.
> > 
> > I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC,
> > the
> > vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC
> > which
> > is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.
> > 
> > The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
> > voting of the CoC.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> The problem is with what is perceived as acceptable and by whom. 
> Different people perceive things differently based on their
> background, 
> experiences, education, parenting, intelligence, age, environment, 
> country they live in, etc. etc.
> 
> Another thing to consider is what is LinuxCNC? What is the board of 
> directors? is this a democracy or a dictatorship or something else?
> Who 
> decides which persons that this applies to? Users, persons in IRC, 
> developers that wish to have their code included in the main 
> distribution, forum posters, etc who is this for and what is the
> real 
> reason for this?
> 
> It is a slippery slope.


That is why I suggested the W3C Code of Ethics and Professional
Conduct. W3C is a worldwide consortium, thus you can be assured that
the definition of "acceptable" is a definition which is shared
worldwide.





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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 14:32 -0600, R C wrote:
> On 6/29/21 2:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:
> > > On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > > > The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with
> > > > respect
> > > > to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will
> > > > provided
> > > > that you act as the CoC says.
> > > > 
> > > > Regards
> > > > 
> > > and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no way
> > > you
> > > can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating
> > > rules
> > > for
> > > what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
> > > countries
> > > where you can happily follow those rules.
> > 
> > This is what I think:
> > 
> > The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is
> > to
> > act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
> > provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do
> > this
> > kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
> > aggregation and mutual respect.
> 
> right, most normal/decent people know that is expected behavior, so
> it 
> is pointless to re-iterate, and mosyly turns into something
> manipulative.
> 
> > I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC,
> > the
> > vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC
> > which
> > is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.
> 
> Because it is pointless.  There still has not been given an urgent 
> reason for doing this kinda left-ish thing.
> 
> 
> I make a point of that all the time, also at work, where they have 
> several of these things.
> 
> 
> Reason?  Oh an upper management person  once said it was needed
> "because 
> everyone deserves to be respected, and by the end of the day can go
> home 
> being happy they accomplished something"
> 
> I questioned him "Why?"  ..  except for a lot of "uh"-s no real
> answer.  
> Of course not,  because there are no reasons to do that..  it's 
> management porn.
> 
> 
> > The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
> > voting of the CoC.
> 
> why?  seriously, make a pressing point of  why.
> 
> 
> > Regards
> > 
> Ron


I cannot comment on what you do at work. However this is how things
work in a human society, we need to state very clearly what are the
leadership actions to do in case controvercies need to be resolved, and
state what is expected behavior and unacceptable behavior from
community members, so that everybody knows that staying in the
community involves some kind of mental and behavioral engagement. This
is necessary to avoid irrimediable conflicts that can lead to
destruction of the community.

I'm happy to see that LinuxCNC community has survived so long without a
CoC. That said every community needs a CoC mostly as an assurance to
external people that they can join the community without fear.

Regards




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct


On 6/29/21 3:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:


On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:

On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with
respect
to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will provided
that you act as the CoC says.

Regards


and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no way
you
can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating rules
for
what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
countries
where you can happily follow those rules.


This is what I think:

The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is to
act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do this
kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
aggregation and mutual respect.

I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC, the
vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC which
is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.

The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
voting of the CoC.

Regards

The problem is with what is perceived as acceptable and by whom. 
Different people perceive things differently based on their background, 
experiences, education, parenting, intelligence, age, environment, 
country they live in, etc. etc.


Another thing to consider is what is LinuxCNC? What is the board of 
directors? is this a democracy or a dictatorship or something else? Who 
decides which persons that this applies to? Users, persons in IRC, 
developers that wish to have their code included in the main 
distribution, forum posters, etc who is this for and what is the real 
reason for this?


It is a slippery slope.



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 2:21 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:

On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with
respect
to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will provided
that you act as the CoC says.

Regards


and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no way
you
can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating rules
for
what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
countries
where you can happily follow those rules.


This is what I think:

The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is to
act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do this
kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
aggregation and mutual respect.


right, most normal/decent people know that is expected behavior, so it 
is pointless to re-iterate, and mosyly turns into something manipulative.




I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC, the
vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC which
is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.


Because it is pointless.  There still has not been given an urgent 
reason for doing this kinda left-ish thing.



I make a point of that all the time, also at work, where they have 
several of these things.



Reason?  Oh an upper management person  once said it was needed "because 
everyone deserves to be respected, and by the end of the day can go home 
being happy they accomplished something"


I questioned him "Why?"  ..  except for a lot of "uh"-s no real answer.  
Of course not,  because there are no reasons to do that..  it's 
management porn.





The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
voting of the CoC.


why?  seriously, make a pressing point of  why.




Regards


Ron





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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 13:42 -0600, R C wrote:
> On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with
> > respect
> > to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will provided
> > that you act as the CoC says.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no way
> you 
> can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating rules
> for  
> what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are
> countries 
> where you can happily follow those rules.

This is what I think:

The point of a CoC is to tell people that the expected behavior is to
act kindly with respect to each other, and the CoC must foresee and
provide means to resolve any controvercies that may arise, and do this
kindly as much as possible in order to reestablish the community
aggregation and mutual respect.

I don't understand why there is so much friction on adopting a CoC, the
vast majority of open source projects around the world has a CoC which
is created, reviewed and accepted by community members.

The only point I can make is that we need a community revision and
voting of the CoC.

Regards

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Re: [Emc-users] [Emc-developers] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 12:57 PM, andy pugh wrote:

Yes, I read that, and is saddened me. But in more than just the
obvious way, because that means that some of us have been acting in a
way that upset Kirk, but if you asked us I would bet that not one of
us would think that we had.
I am not sure that a CoC is any help there, until Kirk said what he
said I had always considered this mailing list to be friendly, and
that I was already behaving according to the CoC.

I totally agree there, for one   IF it was on the list, we all would 
have seen something ...  aaand someone might have said something about  
said toxic remarks. It is unlikely that it was "out of band", but 
possible it was sent directly. BUT In the latter case, the risk the 
toxic person is running is that it would be posted on the list anyway 
(which would expose it)  or  it would be forwarded to an admin/moderator.



Also,  if someone has something to complain about, speak up and say what 
it is no one else has noticed.  Also,  there is no way a CoC is going to 
prevent people from experiencing something as toxic or prevent them from 
getting their feelings hurt.


(and there's no way you can make everyone happy, the world simply 
doesn't work that way, there will always be people that are unhappy, 
complain, or both)



So yeah,  I totally agree with what you said.



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Bruce Layne


On 6/29/21 4:10 AM, andy pugh wrote:

It does seem a little odd. I suspect it is aimed at some manner of
behaviour that I have not (knowingly) seen on our forums.
It is a bit of a concern to think that I could be accused of breaking
the CoC for being too helpful.


I believe the Code of Conduct was designed to protect the feelings of 
people who don't know, so they ask, but are offended when someone 
"mansplains" to them in a manner they perceive to be condescending.


Unfortunately, the CoC doesn't concern itself with the intent of the 
person providing the answer.  The person asking the question decides 
whether the answer is helpful or condescending, and if the latter, the 
person trying to be helpful is punished.  That's no way to encourage 
people to try to help others.  Many of these externally applied rules of 
conduct have noble intent but often produce ignoble results.


When I don't know and I ask a question, it's because I tried to find the 
answer and couldn't.  I'm probably approaching the problem incorrectly 
and I'm hoping for a quick answer to point me in the right direction.  
If someone takes the time to explain it to me in greater detail to 
educate me rather than simply helping me to educate myself, I'm even 
more grateful they spent their time to save my time.  I try to be that 
guy, who provides a more detailed explanation because more information 
seems more helpful to me.  It seems like a welcoming gesture to someone 
new to the community. However, there are some people who want only the 
answer that they want.  We're expected to read their minds to ascertain 
exactly what they want and provide only the information they want but 
not any excess information that might imply they don't know something.  
The Code of Conduct appears to force our entire community into tip 
toeing through that mine field.





I get the feeling that this CoC was written for a somewhat different
demographic than LinuxCNC users tend to be. (By which I am mainly
referring to age).


I believe age is part of the demographic difference, but there is also a 
difference between typical engineers who are good at technical issues 
but not good at social issues.  Or, as my wife tells me, it's not what 
you said but how you said it. :-/




On 6/29/21 7:47 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:


My only question is why in the heck is this even necessary?  We're all in
this because we share the common bonds of machining, LinuxCNC, and other
related things that go along with.


Apparently, a history of peaceful coexistence is not good enough. 
There's an old saying.  You may not care about politics, but politics 
cares about you.


There may be an online community of people who enjoy LinuxCNC, who 
support each other and anyone sharing that interest is welcome, but they 
cannot be allowed to restrict their conversations to the technical and 
ignore someone else's political issues.  All interest groups must be 
expanded to include identity politics.


LinuxCNC  -->  LinuxCNC + politics
Flower Arranging  -->  Flower Arranging + politics
etc.



On 6/29/21 8:10 AM, Les Newell wrote:
I find it mildly ironic that the introduction of a code of conduct 
triggered one of the few posts I've seen on this list that breaks the 
code of conduct...


Ironic, yes, but probably not unintended.

Most people want self governance, but a small minority see themselves as 
our rulers.  They know better than we do what's best for us.  It's not 
good enough to have a group of technical people discussing technical 
issues.  We can't be allowed to ignore the important issues of our day.  
We must be forced to engage in the divisive politics of race, gender, 
sexual orientation, etc.  For our own good.  Even if it destroys the 
community.




On 6/29/21 8:14 AM, fxkl47BF via Emc-users wrote:

have one or be labeled non-conformist and be boycotted


Maybe being boycotted might not be so bad if those who boycott are the 
ones whose participation would consist of off-topic divisive politics.   :-)


If the Powers That Be insist on a code of conduct, can't we just 
formalize our unwritten code?  "Everybody be cool."




On 6/29/21 12:51 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
In my view, the LinuxCNC user list has been too toxic to be involved 
with for the last few years. It has been toxic long enough that the 
usual suspects have grown used to their habits and don't know any 
better. Fortunately for me, I have learned enough to fix whatever goes 
wrong with my machines or the software, but it hurts to see this drive 
away the people that have provided the foundation for this amazing 
project for the last twenty years.


It's almost as if we're reading different email lists.  I see the 
LinuxCNC community as helpful and welcoming.  On very rare occasions, 
I've seen a terse reply from someone who has seen the same question 
asked many times before, but it's almost always followed up with someone 
patiently answering the same question again for the benefit of someone 
who

Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Gene Heskett

On Tuesday 29 June 2021 13:09:08 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> >
> > On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 16:45, Mark Wendt  
wrote:
> > > Have there been any instances of any discrimination, bullying or
> > > other problems with people having issue with anyone of any sort on
> > > this list, forum, wiki or IRC?
> >
> > It's very hard to say. I see about half a dozen new subscribers
> > every day. About 20% go on to post a single question to the forum,
> > and then disappear. I like to think that in general that is because
> > they got the help they wanted (and no more :-) and saw no reason to
> > stick around. But it is possible that they felt unwelcome and left.
> >
> > The IRC serves a social function for many people, but the forum
> > really is just focussed on the topic at hand.
> >
> > --
> > atp
>
> Andy,
> Over the years I've often felt the general Linux community has been
> quite rude to new users.  I've seen people stay with MACH and Windows
> because of the perceived 'elitist' attitude of Linux users.
>
> Let me put out an example of what the CoC appears to support.
> 
> The question by a new user:
> I'd like to be able to add an encoder to my spindle.  How do I start?
>
> Acceptable response:
> It's in the documentation.  Read it before you bother us with
> questions.
>
> Unacceptable response because it's way too helpful and excessive:
> Linux, unlike MACH requires at least two sensors: one for a once per
> rev just like MACH that tells the system where the spindle is for
> synchronization and one that provides a number of pulses per
> revolution so LCNC can determine spindle speed.  This is more accurate
> for speed monitoring than just the single PPR. There's a bit more
> information here for you to start with.
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/examples/spindle.html
> 
>
> Go through the archives and the number of 'experts' (based on posting
> numbers) who respond with "That's already been answered" with no
> additional information is quite high.
>
> I like to think of it this way.  If the questions were already
> answered and all one has to do is look through reference material then
> all we have to do is teach children to read and boot them out of
> school at about 10 years old.  After all, everything they need to know
> is already out there.  The questions have already been answered.  Just
> read the books!
>
Chuckle, carefull there John, except for the age, you are describing me, 
but I made it to about 14 before I came to the conclusion that school, 
under the then present recipe, was a waste of my time and went to fixing 
what was then a brand new thing called a tv.  Fall of'48 IIRC. Thats the 
main reason I still tend to shy away from higher math. My algebra 
teacher was far more interested it getting the pubescent girls all hot 
and bothered by spending his class time telling off-color stories. A 
small town father of one girl finally took his 12 gauge and invited him 
to leave town in the middle of the night. He rather wisely did. I had 
previously taken my objections to the Principle, because I did want to 
learn since I was by then rather heavily into the electronics of the 
day, but the blow back was all on me, I was the trouble-maker. I guess I 
still am, when I'm right. Now its about 70 years too late to modify 
that. ;o)

> So regardless of whether it's LCNC or some other technical forum,
> short 4 word answers are generally a larger waste of space than a long
> winded one.
>
> IMHO.  (oops.   4 letter acronym).
> SAAH.  (crap.  Another 4 letter acronym -- Small Attempt At Humour)
>
> John Dammeyer
>
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:


The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with respect
to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will provided
that you act as the CoC says.

Regards

and that is why it is inappropriate, and useless, there is no way you 
can predict how/what  offends people (and nowadays. Creating rules for  
what/how/when and to whom what can be said, well, there are countries 
where you can happily follow those rules.






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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 10:39 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 16:45, Mark Wendt  wrote:

Have there been any instances of any discrimination, bullying or other
problems with people having issue with anyone of any sort on this list,
forum, wiki or IRC?

It's very hard to say. I see about half a dozen new subscribers every
day. About 20% go on to post a single question to the forum, and then
disappear. I like to think that in general that is because they got
the help they wanted (and no more :-) and saw no reason to stick
around. But it is possible that they felt unwelcome and left.



I think many do that on lists like that ask a question they can't find 
an answer to, then either leave because it wasn't a tech answer they 
were looking for, or just hang around, read but not post.


It would be unusual I think, this list is not at all like 
"stackoverflow" for example,  where a post first gets editted, and then 
people start questioning you why you asked in the first place.


(actually I have done that, in many other lists, just joing to ask a 
question or two)


Ron



The IRC serves a social function for many people, but the forum really
is just focussed on the topic at hand.




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Re: [Emc-users] [Emc-developers] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Martin Dobbins

>I am not sure that a CoC is any help there, until Kirk said what he
>said I had always considered this mailing list to be friendly, and
>that I was already behaving according to the CoC.

I have not noticed any of the problems that Kirk mentioned, but maybe I'm 
blind, too easy going, inclined too much to give people the benefit of the 
doubt?

To your point that lots of people seem to join, only a few seem to post once 
and then disappear, I hesitate to use the term lurkers.  Sometimes joining a 
list is the only way to get access to the archives, once a person does and is 
able to search they may find their questions have been answered, so no need to 
post or maybe just once for clarification of something that wasn't addressed 
fully?

I don't post much because, unless I have a pertinent reply to a question, or 
something to ask (that doesn't prove I'm stupid ).  I'll leave the airways 
clear.

I've decided to change that and if someone posts a really useful piece of 
information in response to someone else's question, or even because they're 
just documenting their journey   I'm going to write and tell them so and say 
thanks.

That's way more than my 2 cents worth

Martin








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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 14:20 -0400, Mark Wendt wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 1:12 PM Valerio Bellizzomi <
> vale...@selnet.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 11:40 -0400, Mark Wendt wrote:
> > > Adding all the rest of the nonsense is telling people what and
> > > how to
> > > think.
> > > 
> > > Mark
> > 
> > The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with
> > respect
> > to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will provided
> > that you act as the CoC says.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> 
> I'm not seeing that at all.  I'm seeing a brute force attempt at
> telling us
> how we are to act and think.
> 
> Mark

Sorry but that's ridiculous, nobody can tell us how to think, it is our
natural freedom to think as we will.
But once we are in a community, we must behave kindly to each other,
failing that the community is at risk of disgregation.





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Re: [Emc-users] 3D Printing + LinuxCNC

On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 19:39, andrew beck  wrote:
>
> Mate it would be so good to get this 9 axis tp working. Have you tried it?

No.

I have had a brief conversation with the author about what it would
take to merge it. But couldn't find the code to even attempt a merge.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] [Emc-developers] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 19:47, Jeff Epler  wrote:

> At the same time, it's good to be mindful of how the advice and help we
> give will be perceived; I think we should take to heart Kirk's message
> in this thread about toxic behavior.  Kirk has been in this community a
> long time.

Yes, I read that, and is saddened me. But in more than just the
obvious way, because that means that some of us have been acting in a
way that upset Kirk, but if you asked us I would bet that not one of
us would think that we had.
I am not sure that a CoC is any help there, until Kirk said what he
said I had always considered this mailing list to be friendly, and
that I was already behaving according to the CoC.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Leonardo Marsaglia

Well, seems that CoC is only underscoring what's been going on here since I
joined (2009 I think). If it doesn't hurt anybody I'm ok with it. Is it
necessary? Well I don't really know.. But I don't see things changing a lot
here because of that code, I mean.. this has always been and still is a
great place to know and learn from people.

I understand also the ones that are reluctant about all this political
correctness thing, most of the time it's only demagogy but that's the world
we have now sadly... I don't think this applies here, I see it just as a
formality.

El mar, 29 jun 2021 a las 15:25, Mark Wendt ()
escribió:

> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 1:12 PM Valerio Bellizzomi 
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 11:40 -0400, Mark Wendt wrote:
> > > Adding all the rest of the nonsense is telling people what and how to
> > > think.
> > >
> > > Mark
> >
> > The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with respect
> > to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will provided
> > that you act as the CoC says.
> >
> > Regards
> >
>
> I'm not seeing that at all.  I'm seeing a brute force attempt at telling us
> how we are to act and think.
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Emc-users] 3D Printing + LinuxCNC

2021-06-29 Thread Todd Zuercher

I'm not certain, but I thought that the new tool planner had already been 
expanded to include all 6 linear axis in LinuxCNC, just not the rotary ABC 
axis.  I know there was an experimental branch that did, and I thought it had 
been merged to master before 2.8, but I could be wrong.  But I'm still running 
2.7, mostly because I haven't gotten around to it.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: andrew beck  
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 2:36 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] 3D Printing + LinuxCNC

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

Mate it would be so good to get this 9 axis tp working. Have you tried it?

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 4:58 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 10:15, Robert Murphy  wrote:
>
> > Not being with the ins and outs, all tho I have one and use one, 
> > what
> are biggest hurdles for running a 3D printer with Linuxcnc.
>
> One issue is that the current LinuxCNC trajectory planner only blends 
> in XYZ, and any movement in an extruder axis will tend to cause a 
> fall-back to single-segment blending.
> Combine that with the fact that STL files can only ever produce 
> straight line segments, and high-quality STL use very small triangles, 
> and the TP performance can be unspectacular.
>
> There is a full 9-axis blend TP out there, I think that Machinekit has 
> it. It would be very nice to get that in to LinuxCNC, but with JA 
> changes in LinuxCNC and not (AFAIK) in Machinekit, the code paths have 
> rather diverged.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is 
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and 
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] [Emc-developers] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Jeff Epler

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 07:19:08PM +0100, andy pugh wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 16:39, andy pugh  wrote:
> 
> > I largely agree, apart from prohibiting "answering outside the scope
> > of the question"
> 
> Thanks for reconsidering this clause, Seb.

I see a number of reasonable folks here concerned about how this rule
would be interpreted and applied, and I don't mind seeing it removed.

I talked to one of the community moderators at Adafruit, where most of
the wording was adopted from.  It sounds like there was a specific need
for it there, and those circumstances don't apply to LinuxCNC.

At the same time, it's good to be mindful of how the advice and help we
give will be perceived; I think we should take to heart Kirk's message
in this thread about toxic behavior.  Kirk has been in this community a
long time.  How many more people simply left the community when they
arrived and got unhelpful help, likely with a dose of contempt? How much
more vibrant could the community have been today if that is not how it
happened?

We've got stuff to work on, y'all.  Communities are work to maintain,
just like software is.

Jeff

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Re: [Emc-users] 3D Printing + LinuxCNC

2021-06-29 Thread andrew beck

Mate it would be so good to get this 9 axis tp working. Have you tried it?

On Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 4:58 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 10:15, Robert Murphy  wrote:
>
> > Not being with the ins and outs, all tho I have one and use one, what
> are biggest hurdles for running a 3D printer with Linuxcnc.
>
> One issue is that the current LinuxCNC trajectory planner only blends
> in XYZ, and any movement in an extruder axis will tend to cause a
> fall-back to single-segment blending.
> Combine that with the fact that STL files can only ever produce
> straight line segments, and high-quality STL use very small triangles,
> and the TP performance can be unspectacular.
>
> There is a full 9-axis blend TP out there, I think that Machinekit has
> it. It would be very nice to get that in to LinuxCNC, but with JA
> changes in LinuxCNC and not (AFAIK) in Machinekit, the code paths have
> rather diverged.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 1:12 PM Valerio Bellizzomi 
wrote:

> On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 11:40 -0400, Mark Wendt wrote:
> > Adding all the rest of the nonsense is telling people what and how to
> > think.
> >
> > Mark
>
> The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with respect
> to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will provided
> that you act as the CoC says.
>
> Regards
>

I'm not seeing that at all.  I'm seeing a brute force attempt at telling us
how we are to act and think.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users

Look up "mansplaining". When it's a person's (specifically male) job to explain 
to a new employee (specifically female) how to do a task but the new person 
already knows how (or thinks they do) to do it and expects the explainer to 
somehow know that. Nevermind it's a requirement to explain to ensure the 
explainee has been informed to cover arses in case the new person screws up.
The genders of the people involved can be any combination but the one in the 
word points out which one teds to complain the most.
I think of a parachute jumpmaster. It's their job to go over the procedures 
*every time*, whether it's the jumper's first jump or 10,000th. If the jumper 
screws up they (or their relatives) have no beef with the jumpmaster.

On Tuesday, June 29, 2021, 2:13:15 AM MDT, andy pugh  
wrote:  

 On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 04:14, John Dammeyer  wrote:
>
> At the risk of being banned I'd suggest that this one point is a bit extreme:
>
> "Excessive or unwelcome helping; answering outside the scope of the question 
> asked"

It does seem a little odd. I suspect it is aimed at some manner of
behaviour that I have not (knowingly) seen on our forums.
It is a bit of a concern to think that I could be accused of breaking
the CoC for being too helpful.

I get the feeling that this CoC was written for a somewhat different
demographic than LinuxCNC users tend to be. (By which I am mainly
referring to age) .  
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 11:40 -0400, Mark Wendt wrote:
> Adding all the rest of the nonsense is telling people what and how to
> think.
> 
> Mark

The whole purpose of a CoC is telling people how to behave with respect
to each other. Basically you are free to think as you will provided
that you act as the CoC says.

Regards

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 16:45, Mark Wendt  wrote:
> >
> > Have there been any instances of any discrimination, bullying or other
> > problems with people having issue with anyone of any sort on this list,
> > forum, wiki or IRC?
> 
> It's very hard to say. I see about half a dozen new subscribers every
> day. About 20% go on to post a single question to the forum, and then
> disappear. I like to think that in general that is because they got
> the help they wanted (and no more :-) and saw no reason to stick
> around. But it is possible that they felt unwelcome and left.
> 
> The IRC serves a social function for many people, but the forum really
> is just focussed on the topic at hand.
> 
> --
> atp

Andy,
Over the years I've often felt the general Linux community has been quite rude 
to new users.  I've seen people stay with MACH and Windows because of the 
perceived 'elitist' attitude of Linux users.

Let me put out an example of what the CoC appears to support.

The question by a new user:
I'd like to be able to add an encoder to my spindle.  How do I start?

Acceptable response:
It's in the documentation.  Read it before you bother us with questions.

Unacceptable response because it's way too helpful and excessive:
Linux, unlike MACH requires at least two sensors: one for a once per rev just 
like MACH that tells the system where the spindle is for synchronization and 
one that provides a number of pulses per revolution so LCNC can determine 
spindle speed.  This is more accurate for speed monitoring than just the single 
PPR.
There's a bit more information here for you to start with.
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/examples/spindle.html

Go through the archives and the number of 'experts' (based on posting numbers) 
who respond with "That's already been answered" with no additional information 
is quite high.

I like to think of it this way.  If the questions were already answered and all 
one has to do is look through reference material then all we have to do is 
teach children to read and boot them out of school at about 10 years old.  
After all, everything they need to know is already out there.  The questions 
have already been answered.  Just read the books!

So regardless of whether it's LCNC or some other technical forum, short 4 word 
answers are generally a larger waste of space than a long winded one.

IMHO.  (oops.   4 letter acronym). 
SAAH.  (crap.  Another 4 letter acronym -- Small Attempt At Humour)

John Dammeyer

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Kirk Wallace


On 6/29/21 8:50 AM, R C wrote:


Nothing in the Code of Conduct should be surprising to anyone here - 
it really is all common sense "don't be a jerk" type stuff.


No it isn't useful, and if it's common sense here already, then why do 
you need it?




In my view, the LinuxCNC user list has been too toxic to be involved 
with for the last few years. It has been toxic long enough that the 
usual suspects have grown used to their habits and don't know any 
better. Fortunately for me, I have learned enough to fix whatever goes 
wrong with my machines or the software, but it hurts to see this drive 
away the people that have provided the foundation for this amazing 
project for the last twenty years.


Sincerely, Kirk Wallace


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Re: [Emc-users] 3D Printing + LinuxCNC

On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 10:15, Robert Murphy  wrote:

> Not being with the ins and outs, all tho I have one and use one, what are 
> biggest hurdles for running a 3D printer with Linuxcnc.

One issue is that the current LinuxCNC trajectory planner only blends
in XYZ, and any movement in an extruder axis will tend to cause a
fall-back to single-segment blending.
Combine that with the fact that STL files can only ever produce
straight line segments, and high-quality STL use very small triangles,
and the TP performance can be unspectacular.

There is a full 9-axis blend TP out there, I think that Machinekit has
it. It would be very nice to get that in to LinuxCNC, but with JA
changes in LinuxCNC and not (AFAIK) in Machinekit, the code paths have
rather diverged.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 12:42 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 16:45, Mark Wendt  wrote:
> >
> > Have there been any instances of any discrimination, bullying or other
> > problems with people having issue with anyone of any sort on this list,
> > forum, wiki or IRC?
>
> It's very hard to say. I see about half a dozen new subscribers every
> day. About 20% go on to post a single question to the forum, and then
> disappear. I like to think that in general that is because they got
> the help they wanted (and no more :-) and saw no reason to stick
> around. But it is possible that they felt unwelcome and left.
>
> The IRC serves a social function for many people, but the forum really
> is just focussed on the topic at hand.
>
> --
> atp
>

I think that's just typical behavior on just about any forum.  I  admin and
moderate a number of different forums and see that all the time, and all
those forums welcome newcomers.  Many of the ones that never post or post
once and leave either get their question(s) answered or find the forum
isn't what they were looking for in the first place.  Plus there are a ton
of folks that just lurk for a long time before they ever post.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 16:45, Mark Wendt  wrote:
>
> Have there been any instances of any discrimination, bullying or other
> problems with people having issue with anyone of any sort on this list,
> forum, wiki or IRC?

It's very hard to say. I see about half a dozen new subscribers every
day. About 20% go on to post a single question to the forum, and then
disappear. I like to think that in general that is because they got
the help they wanted (and no more :-) and saw no reason to stick
around. But it is possible that they felt unwelcome and left.

The IRC serves a social function for many people, but the forum really
is just focussed on the topic at hand.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Ed


On 6/29/21 9:28 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 9:52 AM Ed  wrote:


On 6/29/21 7:55 AM, ken.stra...@gmail.com wrote:

Perhaps just say "NO!" to such silliness? I have been on this mailing

list for years and don't recall any instances of bad behaviour. I only very
occasionally know enough about a topic to contribute but I've been
delighted with the help received for my questions. Keep things as they are!

As Ken said, leave it alone!


This discussion has caused more bad OT than I have ever seen.


Ed.


Tell us all how responding to a post that was originally made by the admins
with comments as how things will change on this list, probably the forum
and within the LinuxCNC community is off topic.

Mark


The term "bad OT" was a bad choice on my part, "bad blood" is term I 
should have used.



Reading ahead I think you and I, Mark, are mostly in agreement.


Ed.




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

Anno domini 2021 Tue, 29 Jun 09:26:19 -0600
 Sebastian Kuzminsky scripsit:
> The Code of Conduct is not about controlling anyone or shoving anything 
> down anyone's throats.  It's about defining inclusive and welcoming 
> community standards for peaceful cooperation and coexistence.
> 
> It's useful to do this explicitly and openly, because that creates a 
> shared standard of communication and interaction that we can all see and 
> agree on.
> 
> Nothing in the Code of Conduct should be surprising to anyone here - it 
> really is all common sense "don't be a jerk" type stuff.
> 
> If it offends you or you think it's "woke babble" that it explicitly 
> mentions don't be a jerk to trans people, or don't be a jerk to people 
> based on their race or religion or whatever, then please take this as a 
> request to leave, and our community will be better off without you.
> 
> Please, let's just all be polite to the people we share this community 
> with, it's not hard.  Let's keep focussing on our shared interest in 
> machining and open source fabrication software, and I look forward to 
> collaborating with you all for many years to come.
> 

If it's common sense, then just drop that CoC and say "plase use common sense" 
... which does not make sense at all, 'cause everybody uses common sense. If 
the CoC is not common sense, then you should drop it 'cause of its agenda. 
Combine both to "just drop CoC". CoC does not make sense at all - only to those 
who deem themself superior.

Nik

-- 
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA, CIA ...


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 9:40 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:

Have there been any instances of any discrimination, bullying or other
problems with people having issue with anyone of any sort on this list,
forum, wiki or IRC?


Nope,  not that I can remember, not as long as I have been here (which 
started years ago, with different account)




What forced this issue to the forefront all of a sudden?
the enlightened woke left ones, loosing territory,  or those that can't 
live without them for some reason. Consider it a last ditch effort 
before they become useless.


All the CoC needed to say was said in the first 31 words.

"In the interest of fostering an open and welcoming environment, we as
contributors and leaders pledge to making participation in our project and
our community a harassment-free experience for everyone."


yeah and that is not even a "Code of Conduct" that people need to be 
reminded of.



And then, for example,  what are you going to do with this/these?:

- let's assume a known child molester, rapist, is on here..

- let's assume,  you find out some terrorist, or adversary is on here, 
trying to figure out how to do/build something, or figure out technology.



are you (I mean the list, not 'you' you) still going to be that inviting 
and "inclusive" or remove them?  that's why a CoC doesn't make sense.




Adding all the rest of the nonsense is telling people what and how to think.


exactly., thanks



Mark



Ron





On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 11:28 AM Sebastian Kuzminsky <
seb.kuzmin...@gmail.com> wrote:


The Code of Conduct is not about controlling anyone or shoving anything
down anyone's throats.  It's about defining inclusive and welcoming
community standards for peaceful cooperation and coexistence.

It's useful to do this explicitly and openly, because that creates a
shared standard of communication and interaction that we can all see and
agree on.

Nothing in the Code of Conduct should be surprising to anyone here - it
really is all common sense "don't be a jerk" type stuff.

If it offends you or you think it's "woke babble" that it explicitly
mentions don't be a jerk to trans people, or don't be a jerk to people
based on their race or religion or whatever, then please take this as a
request to leave, and our community will be better off without you.

Please, let's just all be polite to the people we share this community
with, it's not hard.  Let's keep focussing on our shared interest in
machining and open source fabrication software, and I look forward to
collaborating with you all for many years to come.

--
Sebastian Kuzminsky


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 9:26 AM, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
The Code of Conduct is not about controlling anyone or shoving 
anything down anyone's throats.


yes it is


It's about defining inclusive and welcoming community standards for 
peaceful cooperation and coexistence.
that was already the case, so "defining" does not make any sense, hence 
my previous statement.


It's useful to do this explicitly and openly, because that creates a 
shared standard of communication and interaction that we can all see 
and agree on.


Nothing in the Code of Conduct should be surprising to anyone here - 
it really is all common sense "don't be a jerk" type stuff.


No it isn't useful, and if it's common sense here already, then why do 
you need it?





If it offends you or you think it's "woke babble" that it explicitly 
mentions don't be a jerk to trans people, or don't be a jerk to people 
based on their race or religion or whatever, then please take this as 
a request to leave, and our community will be better off without you.


No it's not offending,  I am not a jerk to people in general (neither 
are the majority of subscribers here), except, I am, to jerks and dumb 
people etc., that are trying to tell people what they can and cannot do, 
it is controlling, obsessive compulsive, ridiculous, not offensive.





Please, let's just all be polite to the people we share this community 
with, it's not hard.  Let's keep focussing on our shared interest in 
machining and open source fabrication software, and I look forward to 
collaborating with you all for many years to come.



Yeah let's do that,  let's focus at what we all like to do as a hobby 
and work,  and take that social CoC experiment to another appropriate 
group/list, like a social studies, 'whomever" issues interest group. one 
or so, we don't need it here, because here (most) have common sense, as 
you stated earlier.




Ron



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Chad Woitas

Good morning All,

Please note the point is to be kind to people regardless of who they are. There 
is someone on the other side of the email.

-Chad

Get Outlook for Android

From: Robert Murphy 
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 7:00:57 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

Do you care to point out this..oh hang on I did call someone not
involved in the project a blight and a bully.

The current Code of Conduct is being pushed by those with agendas
outside of OSS Projects. I have heard these agendas referred to as
"Social Engineering".

It is agendas like these that led to a Political Party in Australia
wanting to prosecute doctors for what is best practice regarding Gender
Dysphoria. Up until that time I had been a supporter or this particular
party, but when I read of their policy to do that to Doctors when doing
their job and providing best care I was disgusted.

"Misgendering" someone, which the list of genders seems to get bigger
every day, is a crime in some places.

Then you get people like this;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv who hides behind being trans
to be a social pest. And in effect making life hard for those that are
truly suffering.

On 29/6/21 10:10 pm, Les Newell wrote:
> I find it mildly ironic that the introduction of a code of conduct
> triggered one of the few posts I've seen on this list that breaks the
> code of conduct...
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

Have there been any instances of any discrimination, bullying or other
problems with people having issue with anyone of any sort on this list,
forum, wiki or IRC?

What forced this issue to the forefront all of a sudden?

All the CoC needed to say was said in the first 31 words.

"In the interest of fostering an open and welcoming environment, we as
contributors and leaders pledge to making participation in our project and
our community a harassment-free experience for everyone."

Adding all the rest of the nonsense is telling people what and how to think.

Mark

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 11:28 AM Sebastian Kuzminsky <
seb.kuzmin...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Code of Conduct is not about controlling anyone or shoving anything
> down anyone's throats.  It's about defining inclusive and welcoming
> community standards for peaceful cooperation and coexistence.
>
> It's useful to do this explicitly and openly, because that creates a
> shared standard of communication and interaction that we can all see and
> agree on.
>
> Nothing in the Code of Conduct should be surprising to anyone here - it
> really is all common sense "don't be a jerk" type stuff.
>
> If it offends you or you think it's "woke babble" that it explicitly
> mentions don't be a jerk to trans people, or don't be a jerk to people
> based on their race or religion or whatever, then please take this as a
> request to leave, and our community will be better off without you.
>
> Please, let's just all be polite to the people we share this community
> with, it's not hard.  Let's keep focussing on our shared interest in
> machining and open source fabrication software, and I look forward to
> collaborating with you all for many years to come.
>
> --
> Sebastian Kuzminsky
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

Hi Robert,

oh I totally agree with you. The reason why STEM people (Science, Tech,
Enineering, Math) have dealt with "that crap" for so long is because
they don't tend to "socialize" and therefor not organize. Most of us
are more like, let me do what I like to do, my job, solve problems, and
ignore the woke liberal artsy stuff. That used to work fine, but now
there are just too d*mn many of the woke now and they won't stop,
because they are not told to stop.

I think that is changing, look at this thread for example, this thread
explosion would not have happened 2 years ago.) The general public, and
the majority of them are moderate, whatever side you look at, and are
fed up with the nonsense, Those are mostly the productive members of
society anyway and I think that will prevail.

Ron

On 6/29/21 9:07 AM, Robert Murphy wrote:

RC that’s the point I was trying to make, but now it would seem a complete lack
of eloquence and a whole lot of a bull in a china shop.

And Les with regards to the Yaniv character, how would you refer to an
individual that makes appointments with businesses that deal with “feminine
hair issues” then proceeds to drag them through the courts because they refused
to wax his male genitalia?
The same person was also brought up on illegal weapons charges, and complaints
have been made regarding grooming of underage girls. Not to mention an assault
charge, where the assault was caught on camera. All but the grooming have been
dealt with by the caught. Also Yaniv tried to organise a “topless” swimming
event where teen girls were encouraged not to bring parents or guardians. These
all for public record. Adding to that there was crowd funding campaign for the
entry fee for a beauty contest.
Yes I think those actions have proved Yaniv to be a social pest.
As for the instigator of the CofC maybe a better wording would have been his
actions have been those of a bully and have not been positive.

Composed with my Crayons

On 30 Jun 2021, at 00:42, R C wrote:

On 6/29/21 8:25 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 15:18, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:

+1 CoC guarantees nontechnical tentacles grab hold on technical projects. Nobody needs
those "management" types.

I don't see any real risk of that happening to LinuxCNC. Apart from
anything else I doubt that anyone non-technical has any interest in
the project. (This is not the case for a desktop OS, or a graphics
package, for example)

Might not be about the technical nature/interest, it might just be that woke "everyone has to
do what we say" policy. It's "cancel culture", if you don't behave like we demand,
you're going to be banned. (or not hosted there anymore) Doesn't matter if it is highly technical
or not.

(look at what is happening at the "woke math" in the K-12 school system, which
is spreading to sciences too)

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Sebastian Kuzminsky

The Code of Conduct is not about controlling anyone or shoving anything 
down anyone's throats.  It's about defining inclusive and welcoming 
community standards for peaceful cooperation and coexistence.


It's useful to do this explicitly and openly, because that creates a 
shared standard of communication and interaction that we can all see and 
agree on.


Nothing in the Code of Conduct should be surprising to anyone here - it 
really is all common sense "don't be a jerk" type stuff.


If it offends you or you think it's "woke babble" that it explicitly 
mentions don't be a jerk to trans people, or don't be a jerk to people 
based on their race or religion or whatever, then please take this as a 
request to leave, and our community will be better off without you.


Please, let's just all be polite to the people we share this community 
with, it's not hard.  Let's keep focussing on our shared interest in 
machining and open source fabrication software, and I look forward to 
collaborating with you all for many years to come.


--
Sebastian Kuzminsky


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Robert Murphy

RC that’s the point I was trying to make, but now it would seem a complete lack 
of eloquence and a whole lot of a bull in a china shop.

And Les with regards to the Yaniv character, how would you refer to an 
individual that makes appointments with businesses that deal with “feminine 
hair issues” then proceeds to drag them through the courts because they refused 
to wax his male genitalia?
The same person was also brought up on illegal weapons charges, and complaints 
have been made regarding grooming of underage girls. Not to mention an assault 
charge, where the assault was caught on camera. All but the grooming have been 
dealt with by the caught. Also Yaniv tried to organise a “topless” swimming 
event where teen girls were encouraged not to bring parents or guardians. These 
all for public record. Adding to that there was crowd funding campaign for the 
entry fee for a beauty contest.
Yes I think those actions have proved Yaniv to be a social pest.
As for the instigator of the CofC maybe a better wording would have been his 
actions have been those of a bully and have not been positive.

Composed with my Crayons 

> On 30 Jun 2021, at 00:42, R C  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 6/29/21 8:25 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>>> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 15:18, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp  wrote:
>>> 
>>> +1 CoC guarantees nontechnical tentacles grab hold on technical projects. 
>>> Nobody needs those "management" types.
>> I don't see any real risk of that happening to LinuxCNC. Apart from
>> anything else I doubt that anyone non-technical has any interest in
>> the project. (This is not the case for a desktop OS, or a graphics
>> package, for example)
>> 
> Might not be about the technical nature/interest,  it might just be that woke 
> "everyone has to do what we say" policy. It's "cancel culture",  if you don't 
> behave like we demand, you're going to be banned. (or not hosted  there 
> anymore) Doesn't matter if it is highly technical or not.
> 
> (look at what is happening at the "woke math" in the K-12 school system, 
> which is spreading to sciences too)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Gene Heskett

On Tuesday 29 June 2021 10:13:50 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:

> Anno domini 2021 Tue, 29 Jun 09:16:19 -0400
>
>  Gene Heskett scripsit:
> > > How about we  just adopt the Golden Rule - do unto others as you
> > > would have them do unto you. That seems to have worked well for
> > > many thousands of years.  Leave the sexual preference bullcrap
> > > somewhere else where people wish to discuss that kind of thing.
> > >
> > > Mark
> >
> > + about 10+26
>
> Far too easy. What those "management" flok do then?
>
Lose the next election. :) On this list, terms seem to be of arbitrary 
duration, its all volunteer anyway. I am gratefull for any helpfull 
info, and in turn I help where I can. Thats not intended to be bragging, 
but it is the right thing to do.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 8:25 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 15:18, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp  wrote:


+1 CoC guarantees nontechnical tentacles grab hold on technical projects. Nobody needs 
those "management" types.

I don't see any real risk of that happening to LinuxCNC. Apart from
anything else I doubt that anyone non-technical has any interest in
the project. (This is not the case for a desktop OS, or a graphics
package, for example)

Might not be about the technical nature/interest,  it might just be that 
woke "everyone has to do what we say" policy. It's "cancel culture",  if 
you don't behave like we demand, you're going to be banned. (or not 
hosted  there anymore) Doesn't matter if it is highly technical or not.


(look at what is happening at the "woke math" in the K-12 school system, 
which is spreading to sciences too)






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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct



On 6/29/21 8:16 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:

+1 CoC guarantees nontechnical tentacles grab hold on technical projects. Nobody needs 
those "management" types. To push it to the extreme, with CoC you are not 
allowed any more to tell these self-proclamed policemen to go where the sun never shines.


exactly   , I see that everywhere,  including where I work (a fairly 
large 'institution'), management/policy-makers (or "spread sheet people" 
as I call them)  telling you how, when and what to do (including 
nonsense 'training').  At some point you just have to say things like 
"No!",  "go away", "shut up" etc.   Yeah that is probably not 
"inclusive" (haha),  but I am not going sit there and listen to that, 
because it is not constructive,  in fact, it is destructive.  and that 
seems to, in fact, putting your foot down actually a positive effect.


I think that probably explains the 'explosive' trending topic here,  ..  
enough is enough, and people are speaking up.



Ron


Nik





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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 10:28 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 15:18, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp  wrote:
>
> > +1 CoC guarantees nontechnical tentacles grab hold on technical
> projects. Nobody needs those "management" types.
>
> I don't see any real risk of that happening to LinuxCNC. Apart from
> anything else I doubt that anyone non-technical has any interest in
> the project. (This is not the case for a desktop OS, or a graphics
> package, for example)
>
> --
> atp
>

Then what's the point of pushing a Code of Conduct which has a very obvious
agenda on a group that for so many years has not needed anything of the
sort?

We may or may not agree with everything anybody says on this forum but for
as long as I've been on this list (and that's been since the early 2000's)
we seem to all play in this sandbox pretty well without having to submit to
a Code of Conduct.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 10:16 AM Dr. Nikolaus Klepp 
wrote:

> Anno domini 2021 Tue, 29 Jun 09:16:19 -0400
>  Gene Heskett scripsit:
> >
> > > How about we  just adopt the Golden Rule - do unto others as you would
> > > have them do unto you. That seems to have worked well for many
> > > thousands of years.  Leave the sexual preference bullcrap somewhere
> > > else where people wish to discuss that kind of thing.
> > >
> > > Mark
> >
> > + about 10+26
>
> Far too easy. What those "management" flok do then?
>

Wouldn't that be their problem and not ours?

This list seems to have done pretty well for it's entire existence without
some phony Code of Conduct with a bunch of woke babble being forced down
our throats.  Why fix something that isn't broken?

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

Anno domini 2021 Tue, 29 Jun 15:25:51 +0100
 andy pugh scripsit:
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 15:18, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp  wrote:
> 
> > +1 CoC guarantees nontechnical tentacles grab hold on technical projects. 
> > Nobody needs those "management" types.
> 
> I don't see any real risk of that happening to LinuxCNC. Apart from
> anything else I doubt that anyone non-technical has any interest in
> the project. (This is not the case for a desktop OS, or a graphics
> package, for example)
> 

It's not about the project, it's about power over people. CoC in place is like 
a pile of elefant poop ... some day there will be flies.

Nik



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 9:52 AM Ed  wrote:

> On 6/29/21 7:55 AM, ken.stra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Perhaps just say "NO!" to such silliness? I have been on this mailing
> list for years and don't recall any instances of bad behaviour. I only very
> occasionally know enough about a topic to contribute but I've been
> delighted with the help received for my questions. Keep things as they are!
>
> As Ken said, leave it alone!
>
>
> This discussion has caused more bad OT than I have ever seen.
>
>
> Ed.
>

Tell us all how responding to a post that was originally made by the admins
with comments as how things will change on this list, probably the forum
and within the LinuxCNC community is off topic.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 at 15:18, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp  wrote:

> +1 CoC guarantees nontechnical tentacles grab hold on technical projects. 
> Nobody needs those "management" types.

I don't see any real risk of that happening to LinuxCNC. Apart from
anything else I doubt that anyone non-technical has any interest in
the project. (This is not the case for a desktop OS, or a graphics
package, for example)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

Anno domini 2021 Tue, 29 Jun 23:00:57 +1000
 Robert Murphy scripsit:
> Do you care to point out this..oh hang on I did call someone not
> involved in the project a blight and a bully.
> 
> The current Code of Conduct is being pushed by those with agendas
> outside of OSS Projects. I have heard these agendas referred to as
> "Social Engineering".

+1 CoC guarantees nontechnical tentacles grab hold on technical projects. 
Nobody needs those "management" types. To push it to the extreme, with CoC you 
are not allowed any more to tell these self-proclamed policemen to go where the 
sun never shines.

Nik

> 
> It is agendas like these that led to a Political Party in Australia
> wanting to prosecute doctors for what is best practice regarding Gender
> Dysphoria. Up until that time I had been a supporter or this particular
> party, but when I read of their policy to do that to Doctors when doing
> their job and providing best care I was disgusted.
> 
> "Misgendering" someone, which the list of genders seems to get bigger
> every day, is a crime in some places.
> 
> Then you get people like this;
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv who hides behind being trans
> to be a social pest. And in effect making life hard for those that are
> truly suffering.
> 
> On 29/6/21 10:10 pm, Les Newell wrote:
> > I find it mildly ironic that the introduction of a code of conduct
> > triggered one of the few posts I've seen on this list that breaks the
> > code of conduct...
> >
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

Anno domini 2021 Tue, 29 Jun 09:16:19 -0400
 Gene Heskett scripsit:
> 
> > How about we  just adopt the Golden Rule - do unto others as you would
> > have them do unto you. That seems to have worked well for many
> > thousands of years.  Leave the sexual preference bullcrap somewhere
> > else where people wish to discuss that kind of thing.
> >
> > Mark
> 
> + about 10+26

Far too easy. What those "management" flok do then? 

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> 
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

Yeah,  but the problem with that is, that when you "leave it alone" or 
ignore it, contrary to "old fashioned belief", the woke and self 
proclaimed morally/ethically superior won't leave you alone.



Look at the Centos list/project, they have now have meetings "the 
group/meeting of smart people" as they call themselves (yeah I am not 
kidding) and they decide if people should waste their time on answering 
what you asked... Of course by now, Centos is pretty much dead.


(one reason is, IBM doesn't want to pay for that anymore,  other reason, 
developers walked away.)



On 6/29/21 7:50 AM, Ed wrote:

On 6/29/21 7:55 AM, ken.stra...@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps just say "NO!" to such silliness? I have been on this mailing 
list for years and don't recall any instances of bad behaviour. I 
only very occasionally know enough about a topic to contribute but 
I've been delighted with the help received for my questions. Keep 
things as they are!


As Ken said, leave it alone!


This discussion has caused more bad OT than I have ever seen.


Ed.




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct





Who was the 2nd person I attacked ?


You attacked Jessica Yaniv and Coraline Ada Ehmke. The list is not the 
place for this kind of politics. I won't make any further posts on this 
subject but you are welcome to take it off-list if you really want to.


Les



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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread dave engvall

From my view as a 'older' person: the CoC simply weaponizes those who 
want to be nasty.
I visit another forum where about half the members are polite and the 
other half apparently didn't get much parenting . profane, 
aggressive, nasty, lacking basic spelling and language skills, etc. 
Needless to say I'm not going to name names.

To quote or  paraphrase MT "why does common sense seem to  be so uncommon".

On 6/29/21 5:14 AM, fxkl47BF via Emc-users wrote:

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Tuesday, June 29th, 2021 at 3:52 AM, Robert Murphy  
wrote:


I have a feeling that there is a boiler plate/template for the Code of Conduct.
Rumours abound relating to projects being forced to have one.

have one or be labeled non-conformist and be boycotted


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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Ed


On 6/29/21 7:55 AM, ken.stra...@gmail.com wrote:

Perhaps just say "NO!" to such silliness? I have been on this mailing list for 
years and don't recall any instances of bad behaviour. I only very occasionally know 
enough about a topic to contribute but I've been delighted with the help received for my 
questions. Keep things as they are!


As Ken said, leave it alone!


This discussion has caused more bad OT than I have ever seen.


Ed.




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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct

2021-06-29 Thread Robert Murphy

Les, 
Who was the 2nd person I attacked ?
The Yaniv person and their antics have been widely and truthfully in the media. 
The “shave my b” thing was dealt by the Canadian courts. 
The reason for the “trans thing” is the driving force behind the CofC is trans 
and has spoken of it themselves. If you take time to read past the bits you may 
not like you will note that I have nothing against those that are genuinely 
dealing with these issues.
But children transitioning before they 18 and are fully able the grasp the 
gravity of the situation is not right.
If you look at the wording of the CofC it separates people into groups. That’s 
the issue, it’s about identity or which group you are part of. Rather than 
listing groups what is wrong with just mentioning people ?
Is that not what we all are people before anything else ? All members of the 
human clan ?
I just see more than a so called code of conduct.

Composed with my Crayons 

> On 29 Jun 2021, at 23:21, Valerio Bellizzomi  wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 2021-06-29 at 08:57 -0400, Mark Wendt wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 8:46 AM Valerio Bellizzomi <
>> vale...@selnet.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> In my organization, which also involes machining, it is a question
>>> of
>>> transparency of project management, statement of compliance with
>>> management standards, and commitment to a positive work place. It
>>> is
>>> also a means to resolve controvercies in-house without resorting to
>>> external costly experts.
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> 
>> 
>> Apples and oranges.
> 
> they're both fruits, you can mix them in a very good tasting smoothie
> :-)
> 
> 
>>  The only controversies I've ever seen on this list in
>> the last 20 or 30 years have been on a way to do things better, or
>> the
>> direction some folks would like to see this software go.  The beauty
>> of
>> being behind a keyboard is that it tends to keep the in-person
>> conflicts to
>> a very small minimum.
>> 
>> As I said in another post, just apply the Golden Rule.  Short, to the
>> point
>> and says everything that code should say in one sentence without the
>> baggage.
>> 
>> Mark
> 
> 
> but to be clear, I'm not advocating that we must adopt this CoC, only
> suggesting one example that seems adopted worldwide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Code of Conduct