from:"Jamie K via EV"

Re: [EVDL] (+more) Lawrence' Leaf: lithium 12v aux battery ...

2020-02-25 Thread Jamie K via EV



4-6 years checks out. Our original 2013 LEAF 12 volt aux battery failed 
at about the six year point, so we got the max of that range. We also 
still have 12 bars on the main pack at about 65k miles.


Cheers,
 -Jamie

On 2/25/20 9:11 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:



On 2/24/20 9:06 PM, evln via EV wrote:


Why is Lawrence replacing his 12V aux battery?
  If I remember correctly, he traded in his old gen Leaf
for a newer (2017?) 30kWh Leaf. That would only make his
12V aux batt 3 years old, which should last from 4 to 6
years.

The OEM 12v Aux battery that comes with Leaf's are a common early 
failure point. I had to replace mine at 4 years when it started to 
corrode and had blue & white crystals escaping


https://www.summet.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/OEM_battery_finished_may3_2019.jpg 



It does not surprise me that one has failed at the 3 year mark.
I went with an AGM replacement battery and am hoping it will last 4-6 
years.


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf 2use in VT: buying a used EV ...

2019-08-22 Thread Jamie K via EV




On 8/22/19 8:42 AM, Willie via EV wrote:

Thank you for "listening".  :-)


You're welcome, Willie. Thanks for pointing out your particular 
experiences with an early LEAF.


I think your experience is important, even when you post on every single 
LEAF thread to make sure we do listen. :^)


Thanks for being an early adopter and I'm always sorry to hear that 
Nissan did not stand behind your car.


That said, I think the LEAF from mid-2013 on is a decent EV, and early 
problems with some 2011/12 cars shouldn't dissuade folks from enjoying 
the EV experience with a LEAF.


I enjoy my LEAF every day, and that's also an important experience to 
relate. Compared to the earlier models I like the added/improved 
features in our 2013 SV, and our battery pack is doing fine.


Cheers,
 -Jamie

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf 2use in VT: buying a used EV ...

2019-08-22 Thread Jamie K via EV



For the LEAF, some folk's experiences as early adopters in 2011/12 was 
not satisfactory, primarily due to battery life, as Willie periodically 
reminds us.


However from my experience and others here I would say that from 
mid-2013 forward the LEAF has been much improved in multiple aspects 
including battery life.


For any EV, know your range needs and check the battery condition before 
you buy. When you find an EV that covers your use case, you will enjoy a 
much better overall experience than huffing along in a gas burner.


Cheers,
 -Jamie

On 8/22/19 7:53 AM, Willie via EV wrote:



On 8/22/19 8:41 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

EV range is very very user specific.  You buy an EV that meets your daily
range.  Done.

So please keep your denigrating comments to your specific case, and do 
not

use generalized negativisim which others may take out of context.  "very
limited life and market".  For example would be "has very limited life 
and

market for my driving needs".

For example, my son's commute is only 8 miles a day.  He can use 
almost free

used EV's when others have moved on..


I agree that a car that does not meet the needs and expectations of one 
person may well meet the needs and expectations of another.


A car's reputation is made from the sum of buyers experiences.  Glenn 
has properly presented his experience and should not be castigated for 
presenting.  That is, I object to you attempting to suppress honest and 
truthful statements.


My experience with a new 2011 Leaf is much the same that Glenn relates. 
I will never buy another Nissan and will never encourage anyone to buy one.


.


Thanks, Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Glenn Van Vlemen via EV
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 11:56 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Glenn Van Vlemen ; brucedp5 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf 2use in VT: buying a used EV ...

I have been looking at 2nd hand leaf’s but find the battery degradation
severely limits the use of these vehicles.

Some progress appears to be on the horizon for installing additional
capacity to restore and or improve range. But not commercially 
available yet

and potential issues around insurance, liabilities etc yet to be clearly
defined.

In Australia this appears to make these vehicles impractical and thus
valueless!

I do a 55km commute daily so would like a 80% charged range of > 80km 
to be
useful. Then there is the issue of continued battery degradation and 
further

reduction of range into the future.

So the leaf appears to me to have a very limited life and market. Pity as
the cars are on the market for reasonable prices now, assuming you can
accept the range limitations.


On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 09:13, Seth Rothenberg via EV 
wrote:


I second much of the advice shared here already, and I would add one
thing.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 8:52 PM brucedp5 via EV  
wrote:



I would not waste time on ay leaf that is older than 2014. That is
the model year offering onboard 6kW chargers and had worked out most
of the charger bugs.



I have a 2013 Nissan Leaf S, 24KWh battery, theoretical range 84 miles.
I bought this car 200 miles from home on a day that was 18 degrees F.
Let's just say it's good I had plenty of time and a really good friend
to take turns with.

In the 2016 model year, two additional options became available -
Heat pump instead of resistive heat and
30 KWh battery  (Not on all models in 2016).

It would be worth studying if these options are available
in your area, as I have been told they make a big difference in range.

If you buy a Leaf, one or more of the groups can share
more tips, like using seat warmers to warm people
conductively instead of the high cost of physically moving
air through the heating system.

Good luck, please let us know :-)
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*Regards*

*Glenn Van Vlemen*
Tel: +61 419 919 536
Email:  *gl...@exoro.com.au *
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf 2use in VT: buying a used EV ...

2019-08-21 Thread Jamie K via EV

I don't know what the story is in Australia but just to clarify some of
the info below, our USA _2013_ LEAF SV model does have the faster level
2 charging, 440 volt quick charging port, and heat pump.

Plus a light in the charge port, a useful battery charge percentage
display and a few other refinements added in 2013. It also has an 80%
charge option (good for protecting battery life) that was removed in
later years.

2013 SL models also had those features plus Bose speakers and an
all-around camera display. 2013 S models did not come with all of those
features but some may have been available as options.

We can report that at 55k miles or so the dash still shows all 12 bars
on the battery display (it's likely degraded some but not enough to
knock off the top bar yet or have a significantly noticeable effect on
our daily driving needs).

Our 2013 LEAF SV is EPA-rated at 84 miles/full charge and we generally
do better than that in summer and a bit less in winter. We plug it in
when not in use, so daily miles can be higher than those available from
a single-charge.

When we bought it we figured out what range we actually needed and it's
been a workhorse for us.

Cheers,
-Jamie

On 8/21/19 9:56 PM, Glenn Van Vlemen via EV wrote:

I have been looking at 2nd hand leaf’s but find the battery degradation
severely limits the use of these vehicles.

Some progress appears to be on the horizon for installing additional
capacity to restore and or improve range. But not commercially available
yet and potential issues around insurance, liabilities etc yet to be
clearly defined.

In Australia this appears to make these vehicles impractical and thus
valueless!

I do a 55km commute daily so would like a 80% charged range of > 80km to be
useful. Then there is the issue of continued battery degradation and
further reduction of range into the future.

So the leaf appears to me to have a very limited life and market. Pity as
the cars are on the market for reasonable prices now, assuming you can
accept the range limitations.

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 09:13, Seth Rothenberg via EV
wrote:

I second much of the advice shared here already,
and I would add one thing.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 8:52 PM brucedp5 via EV wrote:

I would not waste time on ay leaf that is older than 2014. That is the
model
year offering onboard 6kW chargers and had worked out most of the charger
bugs.

I have a 2013 Nissan Leaf S, 24KWh battery, theoretical range 84 miles.
I bought this car 200 miles from home on a day that was 18 degrees F.
Let's just say it's good I had plenty of time and a really good friend
to take turns with.

In the 2016 model year, two additional options became available -
Heat pump instead of resistive heat and
30 KWh battery (Not on all models in 2016).

It would be worth studying if these options are available
in your area, as I have been told they make a big difference in range.

If you buy a Leaf, one or more of the groups can share
more tips, like using seat warmers to warm people
conductively instead of the high cost of physically moving
air through the heating system.

Good luck, please let us know :-)
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*Regards*

*Glenn Van Vlemen*
Tel: +61 419 919 536
Email: *gl...@exoro.com.au *
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 78, Issue 23

2019-04-22 Thread Jamie K via EV

It's helpful to be aware of who is writing such "studies," who is
quoting them in slanted hit pieces, and who might benefit from any false
impression of objectivity.

At this point in history, the word "Institute" in the resume of an
article writer or purveyor of studies should raise a caution flag. Too
often it may as well be from the "Institute of BS," with a more accurate
slogan "shamelessly creating fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) to
benefit our benefactor's bottom line." FUD is a propaganda technique.
Don't be mislead by FUD.

The referenced article isn't anywhere close to the sort of objective
work of journalism it pretends to be. It reads like a one-sided advocacy
component from an astroturf network established to push an agenda.

You can follow the money to see who may be attempting to benefit. For
example:

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Manhattan_Institute_for_Policy_Research

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Consumer_Institute#Related_SourceWatch_articles

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Institute_for_Energy_Research

Regarding EVs and renewable energy, a self-selecting straw poll on EVDL
won't be scientific of course. That said, we run our EV on renewable
energy.

Even if we just used our standard utility mix our EV would already be
cleaner now and continue to get cleaner in the future as our utility
gets cleaner. It's one of many clear benefits of EVs that
"RealClearEnergy" may have missed. For some reason.

Cheers,
-Jamie

On 4/22/19 6:07 AM, Mark Laity-Snyder via EV wrote:

https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2019/04/19/electric_car_subsidies_arent_all_theyre_cracked_up_to_be_110427.html
Electric Car Subsidies Aren't All They're Cracked Up to Be
April 19, 2019 ... The EV tax credit, which has been around since 2008,
offers consumers a subsidy of up to $7,500 off the price of a qualifying EV
...
https://assets.realclear.com/images/46/469842.jpg

A Straw Poll:
How many of you EVangelists charge your cars using renewable power? The
article above sited a study that electric cars will not help the environment I
am assuming because they assume EVs are being charged from power from the power
company (which in my area means coal fired power plants). I do agree with the
premise that the EV subsidy helps wealthier people more than poor folks, since
if you can afford a brand new Tesla, you have some cash. But that study sited
is very suspect. Most of the people I know around here that have EVs also have
at least some solar. While a few have more solar than they can ever hope to
use themselves (Mark Hanson: take a bow).
So I am just curious. What say you?

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof> its stupid

2018-12-11 Thread Jamie K via EV




Here's a look at the S-Curve of innovation adoption as applied to 
electric cars around the world (from 2017 so the dots have moved a bit 
since then):


https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/23/electric-car-s-curve-adoption-country-fun-chart/

More about those groups along the curve:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 12/11/18 8:50 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Everything starts as a niche.  What counts is growth.  And EV's are growing
at a much higher rate than any other vehicle type.  Geeze, a giant whale
begins as something too small for the eye to see.

Those who overlook the growth of EV's will be eating the dust...

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of paul dove via EV
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 9:19 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: paul dove 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof> its stupid

There were 6 million vehicles sold in the US in 2017. 50,000 model 3's is a
niche.


 On Monday, December 10, 2018, 11:48:03 AM CST, Willie via EV
 wrote:



On 12/10/18 11:17 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:


A niche of a niche, because even today EVs themselves are still a
niche item, and IMO will only become a true mass market product with
continued


Perhaps you are not familiar with recent Model 3 sales figures?  By my
definition of "niche", EVs, especially Tesla, have moved well beyond.
Will demand disappear as income tax credits disappear?  Possible, but I
think not.



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Re: [EVDL] Subject: Re: George Bush father now: Nissan Leaf Compliance car?

2018-08-12 Thread Jamie K via EV



Our 2013 LEAF SV is still showing 12 bars of battery. It has more than 
40,000 miles and handles 99% of our trips which are area roads and 
highways. Fast charging is useful for extending its range on longer 
trips, but we mostly charge at home as needed. With the auto-timed 
charging it's charged and ready when we are.


The LEAF is our primary car. It's more fun to drive, quieter, quicker 
and smoother acceleration, with NO oil changes, gas stations or pesky 
ICE maintenance and stinky fumes.


We also have an older Prius for occasional road trips. It's less than 
half as efficient as the LEAF but at least it beats most ICE cars. The 
LEAF does what we need it to do, as does, for now, the Prius, which will 
eventually be replaced in its role by a Model 3 or equivalent.


I liked the IMEV but it didn't quite have the range for our primary 
vehicle needs. Of course needs vary; our LEAF wouldn't work for some 
people but it works well for us. Newer longer range LEAFs and cars like 
the Bolt and Model 3 open the door for more people to appreciate the 
benefits of driving electric. Good times.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 8/11/18 4:49 PM, Willie via EV wrote:



On 08/11/2018 12:15 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
We have had three Leafs.  The 2012 Leaf had a bad battery.  We turned 
it back in.  Our 2013 Leaf has normal battery degradation.  We can 
still eek out a hundred miles range on the freeway.  This is at 42k 
miles.  Still very useful.  Our 2016 Nissan is still showing 150 miles 
range at times and this is driven miles plus guessometer.  On our last 
trip to Southern California from San Francisco we  went from Salinas 
to San Luis Obispo  135 miles and still had 20 percent left.   The 30 
kw Leaf is fantastic.  The IMEV simply in it's original configuration 
does not meet our needs   Nissan has made the effort to improve the 
batteries of their cars.  The IMEV in my opinion is an embarrassment 
to the EV design community.  We paid 14k for the 2013 with 2,600 miles 
on the clock.  The 30kw was EVen better at 13,550.  We will buy this 
car after the lease.  Sorry you had a bad experience with your Leaf 
but almost everyone with a 2011 or 2012 had a bad experience.  We also 
needed fast charging.  I don't believe the IMEV has fast charging.  
The IMEV is a putt putt for city use similar to a smart car.  Every 
car has it's mission but to compare an IMEV to a Nissan Leaf is to 
compare a Nissan Leaf to a Tesla. In price/performance the Leaf is a 
clear winner.  It gets me where I want to go.  It is comfortable.  It 
is inexpensive.  I don't care how it looks David.  I just wish it had 
the aerodynamics of a Hyundai. Lawrence Rhodes


You don't mention personal experience with an imiev.

Is "putt put" intended to be derogatory?

I thought Leafs were 80kw.  Are they now offering a low power model to 
increase efficiency?


Both my imievs have standard chademo charging though I almost never use 
it.  Chademo charging was, I believe, a $700 option on my Leaf.  I did 
not buy it.


I use my imievs to travel rural roads to towns up to about 30 miles 
distant.  I typically drive below 60 mph to maximize range.  But they 
will go 80 mph or so.  They are very rarely driven in a city.


I have a fair amount of experience with the three cars mentioned. 
Clearly, a Tesla is superior to an imiev.  But, IMHO, both Teslas and 
imievs are superior to Leafs in all ways that I care about.  My low Leaf 
rating is due to unreliability and lack of support.  Mitsubishi may well 
have the same support problems as Nissan but I've never needed imiev 
support.


Of course, we all make our own judgments.  And you are welcome to yours.

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Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

2017-05-22 Thread Jamie K via EV



Haven't been charged for a LEAF oil change, LOL.

They do charge a little for replacing brake fluid every few years, and a 
yearly battery check after the first three years. That's about it other 
than tires.


There have only been one or two software updates since we got our LEAF. 
Like most non-Tesla cars they aren't adding features but they did 
address a bug related to passenger air bag detection.


Enjoy your Tesla.


On 5/22/17 11:40 AM, Willie via EV wrote:

On 05/22/2017 12:09 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:


True for 2011/12 LEAF models.

However the LEAF's guess-o-meter was improved later models. Even better,
a useful battery-percentage-remaining display option was added.



A good point!  Also points out the Leaf weakness of not having OTA 
software updates ala Tesla.  My Tesla started with a not very useful 
fisheye backup camera.  After a few months, lines appeared on the 
display that marked the car's path.  You could then tell exactly what 
territory the backing car was going to move over.  Also, you used to 
have to go the the service center to get new/different tire pressure 
sensors programmed.  Like when you had a flat and changed wheels. Now, 
you press a button on the display and the TPS thing reprograms itself. 
There have been hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of such tweaks.  No 
visits to the dealer required.  Nissan tries to get Leaf owners into 
dealerships at every opportunity.  I've heard of some Leaf owners being 
charged for oil changes during such visits.

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Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

2017-05-22 Thread Jamie K via EV



True for 2011/12 LEAF models.

However the LEAF's guess-o-meter was improved later models. Even better, 
a useful battery-percentage-remaining display option was added.



On 5/22/17 10:10 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
Bruce mentioned "guessometer" in a Tesla context.  It is my 
understanding that Tesla arrives at an estimated range by applying a 
constant, linear scale factor to the estimated remaining energy.  For 
normal use, that scale factor is about 285 wh/m.  The driver is properly 
left to make allowances for wind, speed, elevation, weather, etc.  The 
imiev does apply some guessing based on past data.  They do a fair job 
of such guessing.  Leaf, OTHO, does such a terrible job that it is 
nearly useless.  I remember my wife calling me on her way home from 
picking up the new Leaf: "This thing has lost 15 miles of range in the 
first 5 miles traveled.  At this rate, I won't be able to get home.  Are 
you prepared to come get me?"  We, of course, learned to mostly ignore 
the really crappy instrumentation.


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Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the question

2016-10-04 Thread Jamie K via EV



Speculation, FWIW:

If the 2014 LEAF really became OK to fully charge to 100%, that may have 
been based on performance monitoring of the 2013 batteries not showing 
degradation when charged to 100%. And that would imply that it may also 
be OK to charge the 2013 to 100% regularly.


Or it may be because the EPA was rating the range based on the 80% 
recommendation, splitting the difference between 80% ande 100% range, 
and Nissan wanted a better number on the spec sheet.


Or both. Or something else.

What we do:

What we do with ours is charge to 80% most of the time. If needed 
though, we don't hesitate to charge to 100%. We time it so that it 
finishes the charge right before we drive so it doesn't sit at 100% 
longer than necessary, to reduce exposure to any potential high charge 
degradation.


It may be a good idea to charge to 100% until the lights go out every 
now and then, so it can top balance the pack.


Also keep in mind that the entire pack capacity isn't actually used, so 
100% is not the entire 24kWh. IIRC it uses about 21 kWh, which would be 
just under 90% when charged to "100%".


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 10/4/16 8:19 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Hi folks
In my 2013 leaf manual it says to not fully charge each cycle and only to 80 
percent is preferred but in 2014 it became ok to fully charge.  The chemistry 
is the same NMC nickel manganese cobalt cathode with a lithium electrolyte and 
a graphite anode.  So did Nissan get it wrong?  Is it ok to plug it in on short 
15 mile trips each time?  I do that on my Ghia that has 45k miles on LiFePo4 
batteries and still ok equalize on each charge with balancers like the Leaf 
does.
Best regards
Mark Hanson

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Charge Net NZ L3&2 EVSE in Wellington and Petone

2016-03-29 Thread Jamie K via EV



All of the Chademo level 3 chargers I have used can charge the LEAF to 
100%. As with level 2, charging does slow down past 80% as it approaches 
100%.


2013 or earlier LEAFs have an option to limit charging to 80%. 2014 and 
later LEAF models don't have the 80% limit option.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 3/29/16 1:21 PM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

On 03/29/2016 01:21 PM, dovepa via EV wrote:

I have on your ever used one Chademo charger but it charged to 100% it
drops the current the closers you get to full.

I imagine it is a function of the charger or charge network.  I've used
a few EVGos and they all stop at 80%.  But, who wants to pay that
exorbitant fee to slow charge that last 20%.  Of course, SuperChargers
will go to 100% but very slowly.


When did fast chargers start charging past 80% SOC to 100%?  Did I miss
something?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA



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Re: [EVDL] To maximize Leaf EV range> count bars not miles (v)

2015-11-24 Thread Jamie K via EV

For 2013+ models of the LEAF:
Simply glance at the percent-of-charge meter.
MUCH easier than the nebulous fluffery of bars.

Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com

On 11/24/15 6:00 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

'Wow. People don’t know what they don’t know.'

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/11/18/maximize-range-nissan-leaf-gas-passe/
Maximize Range With The Nissan LEAF (& Gas Is So Passé)
November 18th, 2015 Cynthia Shahan

[image
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/11/Green-spots-show-regeneration-through-braking-copy.jpg
Green spots show regeneration through braking copy

http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/11/Smart-Tire-Care-Extends-Range.jpg
Smart Tire Care Extends Range

video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNJYnMbk-GM
2014 Nissan LEAF - Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) with Easy Fill
Tire Alert
Nissan Owner Channel Apr 19, 2015

The Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) monitors tire pressure. A CHECK
TIRE PRESSURE warning message will appear in the vehicle information display
and the low tire pressure warning light will illuminate when one or more
tires are low on pressure and air is needed. Adjust the low tire pressure to
the recommended COLD tire pressure shown on the Tire and Loading Information
label.

The TPMS also includes an Easy Fill Tire Alert, which provides audible and
visual cues during inflation that indicate when the tire has reached the
recommended COLD tire pressure. After stopping the vehicle, apply the
parking brake and place the vehicle in the PARK position. Then place the
POWER switch in the ON position. Do not place the switch in the READY to
drive mode. After exiting the vehicle, add air to the underinflated tire and
within a few seconds the hazard warning lights will flash. When the
designated tire pressure is reached, the horn will beep and the hazard
warning flashers will stop. Repeat this procedure for any additional
underinflated tires.

After tire pressures are adjusted, drive the vehicle at speeds above 16
miles per hour. The warning and indicator light will disappear. If the low
tire pressure warning light flashes for approximately one minute and then
remains on after you turn the vehicle ON, the TPMS is not functioning
properly. Have the system checked by a NISSAN certified LEAF dealer.

Tire pressure rises and falls depending on the heat caused by the vehicle's
operation and the outside temperature. Low outside temperature can lower the
temperature of the air inside the tire, which can cause a lower tire
inflation pressure. This may cause the low tire pressure warning light to
illuminate. If the warning light illuminates in low ambient temperature,
check the tire pressure in your tires.

The Tire and Loading Information label provides important information at a
glance. It lists proper tire size and pressure. It also lists the maximum
number of occupants for your vehicle, and its maximum load capacity. Please
check your Owner's Manual for the location of the Tire and Loading
Information label on your vehicle.

The Tire Pressure Monitoring System does NOT detect a sudden drop in tire
pressure, as with a tire blowout, and it is not a substitute for proper tire
maintenance.

Please see your Owner's Manual for important safety information, system
limitations and additional operating information.
]

Very soon, I have some out-of-town trips to make in the LEAF. I am tuning in
on tricks to maximize range with the 84-mile fully electric Nissan LEAF. The
lingering joy I have with the LEAF continues as a direct relief from my
previous lifestyle driving a gasmobile. This past month (becoming more
pedestrian once again and driving only electric) I experienced an
immeasurable feeling of liberation from gas; my lifeforce jumped up a few
tall notches. The soft green spots on the dash below shows regeneration as I
brake in ECO mode. I am feeling regeneration of my own.

Air pollution is no joke. We are all affected by the harmful and even
carcinogenic factors of bad air. I want to breathe clean air. I want pure
fresh air even more passionately than ever for my sweet young growing
grandchildren.

And face it, EVs are mechanically simpler. Theoretically, the cars are more
reliable. There is less maintenance with an EV. There are No stops at smelly
oily gas stations. Gas is so passé, or should be, could be, will be. As one
commentator on Nissanusa.com puts it, “Gas is so 20th century.” It is so
last century — along with coal. Wind. Solar. Electric Cars. They are the
smart considerations of the 21st century.

Back to driving range: Some ideas for extending range are to use the ECO
button (takes just a second.) As you can see above, the soft green lights as
I slow and brake start to come on. As the braking continues, the lights
light up to the left even more — indicating regeneration, I believe. And
this is stronger with the ECO button pressed.

Things that also apply to extending gas mileage, and to transportation in
general, via James Balog, and his “Insanely, Ridiculously, Bea

Re: [EVDL] The cell phone "app"

2015-11-13 Thread Jamie K via EV

On 11/13/15 2:15 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> What I also find particularly pleasant is the total absence of scheduled
> maintenance. No tune ups. No oil changes. No nothing. You rotate the
> tires and that is it.

It's pretty much plug in and go.

But there is a yearly dealer battery check for the warranty, and maybe 
every other year brake fluid check/replace. Also replace the cabin air 
filter every year or two.

Cheers,
 -Jamie
 www.JamieKrutz.com

On 11/13/15 2:15 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

The feature I value the most is the cell phone app that communicates
with the car. The base model (without navigation) deletes this app and I
can't imagine life without it. You can check on your car from anywhere
in the world. Don't get a Leaf without navigation.

You can turn on the heat (or A/C) while you are eating breakfast and the
car is still plugged in. If you wish, the app will message you when your
Leaf is; Full, Unplugged, Charger On, Heat Off, Heat On, etc. You can
also tell the state of charge and how long until it is full, remotely.
I've used this feature when my Leaf was parked at the airport and I was
flying in from another state. I checked the SOC with my tablet to be
sure that the parking folks had plugged my Leaf in and it would be full
when I arrived to pick it up. (Canape Parking. Great outfit.
http://canopyairportparking.com/green-parking/juice-bar-ev-charging-stations/)

I would hesitate to get a 2011 Leaf unless you get a _smoking_ good
deal. Nissan was still learning to make EV's in 2011 and they needed a
"learner" model. 2012 is better, with a battery heater and some
improvements. 2013 is better yet, with a _much_ more efficient heater
and still more improvements. Every year newer is better, with 2016
making a big leap with a 30 kWh battery.

I could never hope to convert a car that would be anywhere as nice as a
Leaf. I definitely could not get the same features as the Leaf in a
conversion for the same money, for sure.

What I also find particularly pleasant is the total absence of scheduled
maintenance. No tune ups. No oil changes. No nothing. You rotate the
tires and that is it.

Bill Dube'

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Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

2015-11-13 Thread Jamie K via EV

e same class
as Tesla or high-end cars, but absolutely competes within its class as
far as usability.



 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Jamie K via EV" 
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Sent: 13-Nov-15 9:26:08 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...


 On 11/13/15 10:13 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

 On 11/13/2015 11:08 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:

 On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

 Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch
wine
 sound
 from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.


 I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a
 typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying,
 some may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.

 My hearing is poor, especially at high frequencies, but.
 I never noticed any noise on my first year Leaf.  Nor did anyone else
 comment on noise.  IMHO, of FAR more concern is crappy
instrumentation
 and crappy manufacturer support.


 The main instrumentation complaint was addressed in the 2013+ models
 when they added a useful percentage-of-charge display option. I've
 read that the guess-o-meter was also improved to be less sporadic.

 So, better instrumentation is one reason to consider 2013+ models
 over 2011/12 models.

 The biggest complaints about manufacturer support likely come from
 owners of 2011/12 models in hot climates where battery degradation
 was a problem. From comments on forums, some feel their problem was
 eventually resolved with extended warranty battery replacement with
 the "lizard" battery, but others don't feel Nissan really stepped up.

 Battery issues may be another reason to favor 2013+ models, for those
 in hotter climates.

 Cheers,
  -Jamie
  www.JamieKrutz.com




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Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

2015-11-13 Thread Jamie K via EV


On 11/13/15 10:37 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

This is getting OT but I want to point out that the instrumentation
issue goes beyond the SOC meter.

- all buttons for radio, heat, settings, etc. look virtually identical;
you have to memorize them before you can safely drive the car.  All
labels are text with no or minimal graphics, so you have to actually
read them rather than identify by shape or icon.


True, but the physical control grouping is mostly helpful and easy to 
become accustomed to, for me. Radio controls on the left (except for 
tuning controls), menu stuff on the right. The temp controls are color 
coded.


On the left side of the dash, left of the wheel, I don't change those 
controls while driving except steering wheel heat, which is a bit 
awkward since it's to the right of that group and behind the wheel.


Here's a pic that shows the top part of the center dash controls:

http://www.nissanusa.com/content/dam/nissan/vehicles/2016/leaf/colors-photos/interior-photos/004_large.jpg


- in order to view the temperature setting you have to change the
temperature - you can't just view the current setting.


True, although if you have the status screen showing, the temp display 
may persist (I'll have to look next time I drive).



- There is no virtual (on screen) buttons for graphically setting which
vents should blow air - you have to cycle through.  Well, sort of -
there are some convoluted operations for turning on defrost...


True, there's one button for cycling through the vent options, and the 
screen shows the options as you are cycling.


There's a separate button for windshield defrost and another for rear 
window defrost, that's easy enough. To get heat to hit the windshield 
ongoing, the cycling button isn't that hard to use.



- The steering wheel controls have micro sized font on them which can
only be seen in direct sunlight.


True, but the control grouping/physical locations make them easy to use, 
once you know what they do.



- The map application is utterly useless.  I won't enumerate here but I
can probably list a dozen significant faults.


I use it rarely, but it can be useful for seeing the names of cross 
streets coming up. If I didn't have my phone I'd use it more, but the 
phone is better.



- The car has two clocks which run entirely independently and must be
set through two different mechanisms.


Good point.


- Settings, such as the resetting the trip odometer or the average
mile/kwh, are controlled from a small obscure panel below and to the
left of the steering wheel. Very hard to see and there are only four
buttons so you spend a lot of time clicking to cycle through options.
Not a good idea to do while you're driving.


True. I only really use the upper left button, and rarely, since I 
mostly leave it on the percentage-of-charge display option.



- What else?  These are off the top of my head !


Setting the timers is a bit cumbersome.

So yes, the LEAF's dash could be improved. I don't find it to be 
horrible, though. What car has nailed these issues for comparison sake? 
What should Nissan look to as an example of dash controls done right?


For me, the 2013+ percent-of-charge display is something I would really 
miss in the 2011/12 models.


And despite some valid criticisms, I think the heat/AC, radio and cruise 
controls (what I use most often), are reasonably easy to find and 
operate. I wouldn't dissuade anyone from buying a LEAF based on the dash 
controls.


Cheers,
 -Jamie
 www.JamieKrutz.com



Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Jamie K via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 13-Nov-15 9:26:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...


On 11/13/15 10:13 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

On 11/13/2015 11:08 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:

On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine
sound
from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.


I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a
typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying,
some may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.

My hearing is poor, especially at high frequencies, but.
I never noticed any noise on my first year Leaf.  Nor did anyone else
comment on noise.  IMHO, of FAR more concern is crappy instrumentation
and crappy manufacturer support.


The main instrumentation complaint was addressed in the 2013+ models
when they added a useful percentage-of-charge display option. I've
read that the guess-o-meter was also improved to be less sporadic.

So, better instrumentation is one reason to consider 2013+ models over
2011/12 models.

The biggest complaints about manufacturer support likely come from
owners of 2011/12 models in hot climates where battery degradation was
a problem. From comments on foru

Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

2015-11-13 Thread Jamie K via EV


On 11/13/15 10:13 AM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

On 11/13/2015 11:08 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:

On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine
sound
from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.


I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a
typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying,
some may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.

My hearing is poor, especially at high frequencies, but.
I never noticed any noise on my first year Leaf.  Nor did anyone else
comment on noise.  IMHO, of FAR more concern is crappy instrumentation
and crappy manufacturer support.


The main instrumentation complaint was addressed in the 2013+ models 
when they added a useful percentage-of-charge display option. I've read 
that the guess-o-meter was also improved to be less sporadic.


So, better instrumentation is one reason to consider 2013+ models over 
2011/12 models.


The biggest complaints about manufacturer support likely come from 
owners of 2011/12 models in hot climates where battery degradation was a 
problem. From comments on forums, some feel their problem was eventually 
resolved with extended warranty battery replacement with the "lizard" 
battery, but others don't feel Nissan really stepped up.


Battery issues may be another reason to favor 2013+ models, for those in 
hotter climates.


Cheers,
 -Jamie
 www.JamieKrutz.com




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Re: [EVDL] 2016 30kWh Leaf : Best year to buy ...

2015-11-13 Thread Jamie K via EV

On 11/13/15 9:04 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

Regardless where you buy a Leaf at, take note of the high pitch wine sound
from the motor. VERY aggravating to most people.

I can't speak for most people but I doubt that's true. Our 2013 a
typical understated EV "jet-like" sound. Some may find it annoying, some
may find it thrilling, some may not really notice it.

It does have an added whistle added at low speeds to alert pedestrians
outside the car (switchable on 2011/12 models), which is not
particularly noticeable inside the car. Sadly, there is no option to
select a "Jetsons" spaceship sound for the pedestrian warning. :^)

Also, excessive road noise
due to lack of insulation.

The road noise level doesn't seem excessive compared to similar
hatchbacks. Overall the LEAF is a fairly quiet car, nicer for music
listening than our gasmobile.

My suggestion, is take a look at the Ford Focus
which makes no noise. It only has a 23kwh battery like the 2015 Leaf, but is
more efficient in energy use.

The Focus is a nice looking car. Perhaps it's quieter, I don't know I
haven't had the chance to ride in one. I think the Ford was the first EV
to support 6.6kW charging which may have influenced Nissan to add that
feature.

We considered the Focus EV. Where the Ford EV falls short is: lack of
trunk space (due to their battery configuration as a converted Focus
rather than built-for-EV design); and lack of faster level 3 charging.
Perhaps since it was a project driven more by a supplier rather than
Ford itself it seems stuck in time without much improvement since it was
introduced. What are Ford's EV plans going forward? Will Ford step up
with a purpose-built EV with more interior space, increased range and
faster charging to keep up with the competition or will they let Nissan,
Kia and others continue to eat their lunch?

Cheers,
-Jamie
www.JamieKrutz.com

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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Jamie K via EV



I hope you're right, Ben. The LEAF is a top seller for EVs so it seems 
like there will be a reasonable battery market to serve.


One more thing for the OP: the 2013 and later LEAFs have a bit more 
trunk space than 2011/12 LEAFs.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 11/12/15 3:26 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On Nov 12, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Jamie K via EV 
wrote:


It would be cool if, when the time comes to replace the batteries
(in another 5+ years), Nissan would offer higher range choices for
replacement packs.


Nissan is almost going to have to...but, even if they don't, somebody
else will. The Leaf is the electric version of the Model T Ford.
You'll still be able to buy parts for a Leaf for many decades to
come, maybe even a century, and people will prize them the same way
we do the Tin Lizzy.

Third-party battery replacements won't be that big of a deal. The
volumetric efficiency of batteries is increasing at a pretty rapid
pace, and there's not all that much to the Leaf's battery system. It
doesn't make sense today for a third-party manufacturer to start
making Leaf batteries, but, as soon as there's a market for them that
Nissan doesn't fill, you can bet that market will get filled by
somebody else.

...and, in the mean time, places like the Hybrid Auto Center sell
Leaf packs that, at least on paper, look mighty attractive for DIY
conversion projects

b&



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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Jamie K via EV



I think of 2013 as LEAF version 1.5. The SV could be the value sweet 
spot although used SLs may compete depending on how prices trend.


Nissan is a bit cagey about it, but it seems like the 2013 batteries 
were tweaked a bit.


The 2013 battery percentage display is very useful; the heat pump on the 
SV and SL saves range in winter; 6.6kW charging makes the car MUCH more 
useful for multiple trips during the day (charges twice as fast as 3.3kW 
and 5 times faster than 110v); the Chademo fast charging capability 
makes it MUCH more useful for longer trips when it's necessary to charge 
along the way; the lighted charge port is useful; and the remote button 
to open the charge port is handy.


Other niceties that may also be in earlier models: Heated seats and 
steering wheel; timed preheat/cooling; and USB connection to phones for 
music. There's also navigation but we tend to use phone mapping and 
plugshare.


What's missing: on the SV: no backup camera unless the car also has the 
bose speaker option, which takes up trunk space.


2014 and 2015 seem to be much the same as the 2013, although there may 
be additional battery tweaks and they do have backup cameras. I'm not 
sure if other options changed. The 2013 is the last year to offer 
automatic charge to 80% to go easier on the batteries - does that mean 
2014 batteries are better or did they base that on encouraging data from 
the 2013 batteries (or are they just gaming the EPA range rating)? Hard 
to say.


So far, at about 20k miles, we've really been enjoying our 2013 SV and 
expect to do so for years to come.


The 2016's extra range would be a nice improvement but it all depends on 
what your driving patterns/needs are for the car. Right now the 2013 
LEAF's range works fine for our typical driving around town. It would be 
cool if, when the time comes to replace the batteries (in another 5+ 
years), Nissan would offer higher range choices for replacement packs.


Cheers,
 -Jamie
 www.JamieKrutz.com



On 11/12/15 1:50 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I have seen some very good prices on 2013 Leafs with chademo & 6.6
chargers.  I'm selling the veggie mobile and will need a car and
since 12k is affordable to me I'm thinking of replacing the mess and
thrift with almost as thrifty but much less messy electric.  Is there
a "best" year of leaf so far?  Lawrence Rhodes -- next
part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:




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Re: [EVDL] adding solar charging to 12 volt battery on LEAF

2015-07-15 Thread Jamie K via EV



Your air compressor might be a factor, I don't know. I can say that 
while we've also had pesky tires with very slow leaks, our air 
compressor can run on 120 volts in the garage so filling them every few 
weeks (until we finally had them fixed) didn't impact the LEAF's 12 volt 
battery.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 7/15/15 11:07 PM, harry henderson wrote:

S, like i said, battery was at 4 volts and i had to jump it to start
it [my first EV/EV jump] i had to jump it two more times that day
then i got a new battery, however, the 'old' battery was only a month
old.  as another data point, i did need to fill up one tire several
times as it had a slow leak, carmax also fixed that, but i might have
been using the 12 volt too much?

harry

Albuquerque, NM current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000

-------- On Wed, 7/15/15, Jamie K
via EV  wrote:

Subject: Re: [EVDL] adding solar charging to 12 volt battery on LEAF
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"  Date:
Wednesday, July 15, 2015, 8:12 AM


As another data point, so far we haven't noticed any problems with
the 12 volt battery in the 2013 LEAF that we bought about a year and
a half ago.

What model LEAF did you buy? S, SV or SL? What symptoms have you
had?

Cheers,

-Jamie


On 7/14/15 10:41 PM, harry henderson via EV wrote:

the 2013 nissan leaf has a known issue

with its 12 volt battery

either by lack

of charging or vampiric drains, i just got a 2013 leaf

and found my 12 volt battery at 4

something volts a couple weeks

after i

got it.  carmax replaced it but what they replaced was not

the original battery.  the battery

they replaced was only a month old

and

i don't know how many batteries this 2 year old EV has used in

its 10,000 miles of life.

i'm considering

hooking up a solar charging unit to the battery.

i've been using solar charging systems

on my 12 volt systems as their

only

power source for 10 years now on my homemade EVs, however, this

is a little different, since it

supposed has a DC/DC system.  the



options i've pondered include:


1. add an unregulated trickle charge [but

with diode: 1-2 watts] to

existing

battery 2. add a regulated [charge controller: 10-20 watts]

to existing battery 3. add a

regulated [charge controller: 10-20



watts] to a deep cycle [that is larger than existing battery, maybe

about 30% larger]

#3 is what i've

been using very successfully for 10 years, but again

this is different situation, eager for

other folk's suggestions


i realize this might void some or all

warranty issues, please don't



respond if that is your only contribution, thanks


harry

Albuquerque, NM

current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179

current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000


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Re: [EVDL] adding solar charging to 12 volt battery on LEAF

2015-07-15 Thread Jamie K via EV



As another data point, so far we haven't noticed any problems with the 
12 volt battery in the 2013 LEAF that we bought about a year and a half ago.


What model LEAF did you buy? S, SV or SL?
What symptoms have you had?

Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 7/14/15 10:41 PM, harry henderson via EV wrote:

the 2013 nissan leaf has a known issue with its 12 volt battery
either by lack of charging or vampiric drains, i just got a 2013 leaf
and found my 12 volt battery at 4 something volts a couple weeks
after i got it.  carmax replaced it but what they replaced was not
the original battery.  the battery they replaced was only a month old
and i don't know how many batteries this 2 year old EV has used in
its 10,000 miles of life.

i'm considering hooking up a solar charging unit to the battery.
i've been using solar charging systems on my 12 volt systems as their
only power source for 10 years now on my homemade EVs, however, this
is a little different, since it supposed has a DC/DC system.  the
options i've pondered include:

1. add an unregulated trickle charge [but with diode: 1-2 watts] to
existing battery 2. add a regulated [charge controller: 10-20 watts]
to existing battery 3. add a regulated [charge controller: 10-20
watts] to a deep cycle [that is larger than existing battery, maybe
about 30% larger]

#3 is what i've been using very successfully for 10 years, but again
this is different situation, eager for other folk's suggestions

i realize this might void some or all warranty issues, please don't
respond if that is your only contribution, thanks

harry

Albuquerque, NM current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000
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Re: [EVDL] Trickle Charging a Nissan?

2015-06-05 Thread Jamie K via EV

On the 2013 (and later) model LEAFs, like the one the OP was inquiring
about, you don't have to deal with the semi-ambiguous charge bars.

There's an option for a direct numeric percentage display which is much
more useful/readable.

Battery temp is still indicated by the left bar display, which works
adequately for that use. On our car it does change, tending a bit lower
in winter and higher in summer. It hasn't exceeded the indicated limits.

Cheers,
-Jamie

On 6/5/15 5:07 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote:

On Jun 3, 2015, at 5:51 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On Jun 3, 2015, at 5:05 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote:

The guess-o-meter provides neither number.

Ignoring the guess-o-meter for the moment...how accurate is the remaining charge meter? Can one use
it mentally like one does the gas gauge on an ICE vehicle? That is, if you know that you typically
get 100 miles on a full "tank" and the meter shows you've got a quarter "tank"
left, you better not plan on going much more than twenty miles before charging and even that's
pushing your luck. Does that sort of thing work?

The remaining charge meter is not linear, but seems to be consistent, at least
for my 2011 Leaf. When I charge fully (100% vs 80%), I get 12 bars (all of
them) on the gauge. The 12th bar lasts for about 3 miles on
residential/commercial streets (25mph - 45mph, traffic signals and stop signs).
The 11th bar lasts for another 4.5 (sometimes as much as 5) miles. The 10th
bar lasts at most 2.5 miles. I can get about 35 miles on the top 8 bars if I
never go over 50mph and never accelerate hard enough to have more than four
power dots filled (N.B. one is always filled even when stopped). I can get
another 37 miles on the bottom four bars: 10 miles on the last bar, 20 on the
last two, 29 on the last three and 37 on the last four. Keeping the speed
under 35mph and accelerating more gently, I can get another mile or so per bar.

One annoying thing is that the system removes a charge meter bar every time it
is power cycled if the charge left is less than some threshold of the bar
removed. I have not been able to determine this threshold. It eventually
recovers from this. If I’m on a trip where I care, I remember the gauge
reading before I power down the car.

My leaf has a 16.5KWH usable capacity pack. I don’t believe this has changed
that much in the 41K miles and 46 months I’ve had the car. When I use it to
what I interpret as completely dead (about 3 miles of residential/commercial
streets after the very low battery warning where it shuts off the meter),
charging to what it indicates as 100% (12 bars on the meter) takes a little
less than 5 hours. Assuming my charger is 3.3KW this is about 16.5KWH.

The display on the center console says I am averaging 3.9 miles/KWH while the
display on the dash says I’m averaging 3.8 miles/KWH. This seems consistent
with the 16.5KWH capacity and the total range. I assume I do a bit better than
this when I’m trying to drive efficiently. I rarely need to drive efficiently
though. The routes I typically travel are well within the range of the car, so
I rarely even look at anything other than the speedometer. I plug it in every
night and it charges off peak and I start each day with 80% charge.

I have 5 bars on the temperature meter. I don’t think that has ever changed.
Maybe that gauge is broken in my car. At any rate it is useless they way it
is, so I don’t look at it much either.

There is the silly gauge that constructs pine trees or something. This does
indicate something, but I haven’t been able to correlate it with anything. The
longer I drive without power cycling, the more trees it builds, so maybe it is
some sort of low resolution inverse range or charge indication. I ignore the
tree gauge too.

Ed
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Re: [EVDL] Trickle Charging a Nissan?

2015-06-03 Thread Jamie K via EV

Yes. Starting with the 2013 model LEAF there is a very useful percentage
of charge display option.

You can also reset the miles/kWh display before a trip in order to
monitor what your average is for that particular trip.

With those two numbers you can get a good idea of how you're doing.

Once you've successfully done a route a few times you'll relax a bit
about watching the numbers and just enjoy the drive.

BTW, the guess-o-meter is reportedly less erratic and a bit more useful
starting with the 2013 model year. My guess is they changed the
algorithm to average over a wider time period.

Cheers,
-Jamie

On 6/3/15 6:51 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

On Jun 3, 2015, at 5:05 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote:

The guess-o-meter provides neither number.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Success!

2015-05-31 Thread Jamie K via EV



Congrats on the new LEAF. There were some significant improvements in 
the 2013 model year (search the EVDL for comments on "LEAF version 
1.5"). There were changes to instrumentation, battery chemistry, regen, 
and other features that early adopters of 2011/12 versions had been 
requesting.


You can also search for comments about the LEAF's battery warranty.

The LEAF's traction batteries are passively air cooled. It takes a while 
to change the temp of the batteries. There's a battery temp indicator on 
the left side of the dash (the bars opposite the charge bars). Your 
parents can keep an eye on that.


I would suspect that running the LEAF's AC inside the garage would be 
unlikely to cool the batteries, and might actually do the opposite since 
the garage air would be getting warmer. The batteries are not inside the 
LEAF's passenger area and AFAIK aren't cooled by the LEAF's AC.


If the LEAF's dash starts showing hotter battery temps, here are some 
ideas: Park the car in the shade. Keep the garage ventilated if it gets 
hotter than the outside air temp. Use the timer to charge at night when 
it's cooler. Generally set it to charge to 80% unless they need more on 
a particular day.


Most importantly, enjoy the new electric ride!

Here's a useful place to ask further LEAF questions or read answers to 
questions others have asked:


  www.myNissanLeaf.com

Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/31/15 1:03 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

So, Dad just drove Mom home in a 2013 Leaf. ~12k miles, California
vehicle; couldn't tell it from new. There was one bar missing from
the charge gauge; the numeric meter read, "98%."

Everybody's excited. It should be well and truly perfect for them.

One thought I had that I'm hoping somebody might be able to shed some
insight into...they'll be keeping the car in the garage, but the
garage isn't climate controlled. It probably won't quite get to
today's forecasted high of 108°F inside the garage, but it'll
definitely get rather toasty.

What are the chances that the car will let you run the air
conditioning while it's plugged in with nobody inside? Would that
actually do anything to make the batteries happier?

b& -- next part -- A non-text attachment was
scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size:
801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL:




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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Jamie K via EV

On 5/27/15 1:15 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

I used 75 miles as the range because that is what Consumers Report is
currently reporting and I'd rather use an "independent" testing number
especially if reported range drops in winter.

Sure, as we've all experienced, the ranges of vehicles (fossil-fuel or 
electric) are typically greater in warmer weather.

It's fine to use something other than the standard EPA range rating when 
discussing EV ranges. But you might want to mention what you're using up 
front since folks will generally be comparing vehicles using the actual 
EPA standard.

BTW, the EPA rating itself is a bit conservative compared to our LEAF 
experience so far. Our 2013 LEAF regularly gets higher than EPA rated 
range in the summer, lower in in winter.

We get around 3.3 to 4.5 miles/kWh in colder weather and 4 to 5.5 
miles/kWh in warmer weather (indicated). With roughly 20kWh usable from 
the 24kWh pack, that's about 66-90 miles in cold weather and 80-110 in 
warm weather at 100% charge for our mix of city and highway driving, 
generally in Eco mode (but with full power always available from the 
accelerator pedal when needed).

Based on the Consumer Report number you quoted, it would seem that their 
experience is a bit different than ours. What model year did they test, 
and at what charge percentage?

 >>Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF
refresh for 2017. <<

Seeing the reported ranges increase from the pre-announcements  is very
encouraging.

Yes indeed.

 >>IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the
current model LEAF batteries. <<
When I divide the Model S pack of 85 kwhr by the an estimated weight of
roughly 550 kg for the total pack, I get a figure of 154 whr/kg. Granted
that this weight includes the pack structure and wiring etc. and is an
estimate from an online forum.  If I add about a 1/3 for this weight,
the energy density about doubles over a comparative LiFePO6 at around 90
whr/kg.   When seeing the Jeff Dahn video of doubling to tripling of
energy densities, it puts the above into doubt.

A quick search shows the Model S battery pack referred to as 240 Wh/kg 
and the LEAF at 140 on various internet reports. If those are accurate, 
then the Tesla Model S pack would be about 1.7 times the energy density 
of today's LEAF's pack, so not quite double.

Cheers,
 -Jamie

On 5/27/2015 12:36 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:

On 5/27/15 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.

Actually the current model LEAF is rated at 84 miles EPA range. The
old rating was based on an average between the at-the-time recommended
80% charge and a 100% charge. Along with changes in battery chemistry
Nissan removed the option to automatically charge to 80%.

Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise
and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that
pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S? Ans: ~800
miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as
well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point.
Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful
thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.

IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the
current model LEAF batteries.

Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model
Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in
anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up
to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?

We await word from Nissan on all of this. Longer range replacement
packs for existing LEAFs would be a great option.

Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF
refresh for 2017.

Cheers,
 -Jamie

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Jamie K via EV



On 5/27/15 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.


Actually the current model LEAF is rated at 84 miles EPA range. The old 
rating was based on an average between the at-the-time recommended 80% 
charge and a 100% charge. Along with changes in battery chemistry Nissan 
removed the option to automatically charge to 80%.



Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise
and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that
pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S?  Ans: ~800
miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as
well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point.
Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful
thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.


IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the current 
model LEAF batteries.



Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model
Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in
anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up
to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?


We await word from Nissan on all of this. Longer range replacement packs 
for existing LEAFs would be a great option.


Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that 
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public 
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF 
refresh for 2017.


Cheers,
 -Jamie

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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV



Small, light, efficient, yes. Bring 'em on!

We also live in a small town, but it's in the middle of a large metro 
area. Not surprisingly, with that and other considerations our driving 
needs are different. We couldn't make a go of it here with just L1 and 
the LEAF. But with home 6.6kW L2 it's working pretty well.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/13/15 9:36 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Jamie K via EV wrote:

All I can tell you is that from our experience, L2 is not rapid
charging, it's normal charging. Whereas when you have somewhere to go
soon, L1 is punishment charging.


This is the problem that Lawrence Rhodes pointed out. If you build EVs
just like big heavy power-hungry ICEs, then they need lots of power.
That means big expensive battery packs, and big expensive fast chargers.

But if you build small, light, efficient EVs, then all this excess size,
weight, and cost goes away.



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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV



All I can tell you is that from our experience, L2 is not rapid 
charging, it's normal charging. Whereas when you have somewhere to go 
soon, L1 is punishment charging.


There are places where L1 works well, for example at an airport where 
the car is going to sit for days. And no doubt there are folks who don't 
need much spontaneity and have consistent daily needs (or another 
vehicle available) so that L1 would suffice.


But while L1 can work for some cases, and it's nice to have in a pinch, 
it clearly limits what can be done with an EV.


I wouldn't try to speak for most people, but I do think that flexible 
(home and away) charging options are big part of the equation for 
growing the EV market.


L2 controllers do not cost thousands, ours was around $1k with 
professional installation and construction permit. Faster home charging 
adds flexibility and makes the car investment worth much more.


When 200 mile ranges become the norm, it will be even more useful to 
charge at home at L2 6.6kW (or more) at around 25 miles per hour (or 
more) instead of trickling in at 5 miles/hour or so - except for those 
who don't mind parking their car much of the time and limiting their EV 
options.


The potential pricing of L3 charging is an interesting topic. Right now 
it's free or not much $$ around here. BTW, Nissan removed their earlier 
warning about L3 charging after monitoring the performance of the packs 
for several years, and perhaps after changing the battery chemistry.


Cheers,
 -Jamie



On 5/13/15 7:19 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On May 13, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Jamie K via EV 
wrote:


It's the outliers that you have to accommodate.


Yes, but not necessarily with rapid charging.
When 200-mile ranges become the norm, as is promised soon -- say, a
40 kWh (usable) battery in a (conservative) 200 Wh / mile car -- the
situation becomes moot. Put 150 miles on the car in an unusual day.
Put "only" 70 miles back in the car in a shortened overnight charge.
The battery isn't full, but you've still got 120 miles of range. Do
your normal (but still more than average) 40 miles the next day; down
to 80. Put another 70 in overnight and it's back to full. At no time
did you have less than 50 miles of range, and all your charging was
at L1 rates only while you were in bed.

Will that handle cross-country road trips? No. Can you drive to
Grandma 200 miles away at the end of the day after a 40-mile round
trip commute? No. If you need to do that sort of thing often or
without warning, you'll need something more.

But most people will look at that and decide they can pay exorbitant
rates at somebody else's rapid charger the once or twice a year that
sort of thing happens, or rent a car, or otherwise manage, rather
than spend thousands on a dedicated charger.

Of course, if your car can only go ~60 miles on a charge and takes a
lot of Wh to do so, range anxiety starts to set in and rapid charging
is a real way to assuage it. But if you can be confident that you'll
wake up every morning with more miles in the "tank" than you'll need
to drive, range anxiety vanishes.

...not to mention that rapid charging tends to shorten battery
life

b&



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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV



So I take it you aren't driving an electric car and using L1 at home to 
do all or most of your driving?


For us it isn't hypothetical or theoretical. And for anyone, please be 
clear that a "typical day" is not a relevant metric for range requirements.


It's the outliers that you have to accommodate. Don't lose sight of that.

Your data about 10,000 miles being 40 miles per day is again getting 
hung up on the average. The average is not the appropriate consideration 
for range, some days will be less, some more, and a savvy (and 
ultimately satisfied) EV buyer must consider the latter cases (or have 
another vehicle that can handle them).


The average doesn't include trips to grandma's in the next town over, or 
the emergency trip to a child's school, or an extra trip home to 
retrieve a forgotten item, or going out again after work, or rushing to 
a hospital, or accommodating any other part of life that may come up 
occasionally that, while above the irrelevant average, are important and 
maybe even critical.


Some days we might not drive at all, some days we might charge multiple 
times and cover longer distances. On those days, with the 6.6kW charger, 
we are back in business in an hour or so, four at the most. whereas if 
we were at the mercy of slow L1, multiply that times five.


Realistically, on those days we can't wait 5-20ish hours for each 
additional charge. On those days, we can't have the car be out of 
service for anywhere close to that long, that would make it unusable.


If the goal here is to have electric cars be widely adopted and not just 
niche vehicles, flexibility for the busier days is key. Faster charging 
makes that possible. On days when it's not important, no problem. On 
those days when it IS important, what a relief it is to have a usable car.


The top selling EV is the Nissan LEAF, and they get it. They offer 6.6kW 
L2 charging including at home, and much faster L3 charging, both of 
which make our 2013 SV usable for our situation, for everything but 
longer road trips. They are also working toward longer range cars which 
will also help EV adoption, as will the next round from Tesla, GM and 
hopefully others.


Of course our situation is not everyone's situation, but I wouldn't 
dismiss it as particularly rare either. Everyone's situation is 
different and potential EV owners have to evaluate range based on their 
own range needs (but not merely their average range needs).


Talk to anyone who started out with only L1 (usually to save money) but 
eventually added L2. An EV with faster home charging becomes much more 
flexible and useful and creates happier EV drivers, which helps 
word-of-mouth promotion and growth in the EV market.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/13/15 6:04 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On May 13, 2015, at 1:44 PM, Jamie K via EV 
wrote:


I'm coming from a perspective of practical experience with an
electric car as our main vehicle.


The big factor you left out is daily driving mileage. If you're
putting 80 miles a day on the car, yes, L1 is probably borderline at
best for you. But, for most people, half that is an unusually busy
driving day. Not all people, of course, by any means...but most.
Remember: most automotive warranties are in the range of 10,000 miles
/ year, which is equal to 40 miles per day, five days a week, fifty
weeks a year; if you're doing more than that, you're probably beyond
your warranty's coverage, which most people don't do.

And, with a 250 Wh / mile vehicle (such as the LEAF), 40 miles is a
mere 10 kWh and well under 7 hours at L1 rates.

If it takes less time to charge the car for an entire day's worth of
driving than it does to get a night's sleep, any sort of argument for
faster charging as the normal mode is damned hard to make.

b&



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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV



Charging associated with hotels seems like a good idea for road trips.

For day-to-day local use, do you primarily drive an EV where you use L1 
charging at home or are you talking theoretically?


I'm coming from a perspective of practical experience with an electric 
car as our main vehicle. Approximately 22 hours of L1 would be a long 
time to be plugged in. Even 10 hours for a lesser charge would be 
unworkable for us. Such long charge times take the car out of commission 
when it's needed.


Having only L1 charging at home wouldn't work for us because it wouldn't 
cover our maximum range needs within a workable amount of time. In 
addition to over night charging opportunities, we also need to be able 
to replenish the charge during the day in a reasonably short amount of 
time.


We don't view our LEAF as just a simple commuter car, it's what we use 
for everything except long road trips. And no, we don't want to stop at 
public chargers unless absolutely necessary. Reasonably fast home 
charging and jumping into a ready-to-go topped up car is very practical.


I'm not convinced that L1 is sufficient for "most people" as a practical 
matter. It could work for a predictable commuting pattern, but L2, 
especially 6.6kWh+, makes EVs more practical for life's unexpected 
twists and turns.


If the goal is just to provide a simple commuter car, sure, that could 
work, but if the goal is to upgrade the general car fleet to electric 
power, faster home charging is part of that equation.


I know a volt owner who started out with L1. But even for the Volt, with 
its gas generator backup, he soon realized home L2 made his car more 
practical (BTW a lot of Volt owners I know suffer from "gas anxiety" - 
they want to avoid burning gas). Count me among those who would like to 
see GM up the V2 Volt's L2 support to something faster than 3.3kW.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/13/15 2:00 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On May 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Jamie K via EV 
wrote:


But real range needs are based on maximums.


I'd agree with that. And I hope I'm not coming across as suggesting
that in-home L1 charging is the only way that an EV would ever be
charged.

My point is that most people don't need more than L1 chargers in
their home, if we're assuming that there are faster charging options
on the road. But the resulting problem is that that sets an
expectation of, say, at $0.10 / kWh and a 50 kWh (usable) pack and
250 wH / mile...a 200-mile range that costs $5 in "fuel" in the
"tank." And what roadside rapid charger of any capability, let alone
a supercharger, can compete with costs like that?

That big gap between the cost for most cars to mostly be charged and
the minimum cost for profitability for rapid charging stations is
going to be a challenge.

If batteries were cheap, one solution would be cars with even bigger
batteries. If you drive a few extra miles in a day and more than your
charger can top off overnight, no big deal so long as you don't do
that every day for several days on end. But batteries aren't cheap,
and you've still got a problem for multi-day road trips. Maybe the
hotels invest in rapid chargers that're comfortable putting a
500-mile charge into a typical car over the course of eight hours,
and the expense is included in the room rate? Because, even at 250 wH
/ mile, you're still looking at 70A @ 220V for that, more than is
realistic for any home charger.

b&



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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV



The assumption of what "nearly everyone needs in a day" is based on 
averages, right?


Averages are built from data ranging from minimums to maximums. But real 
range needs are based on maximums. So it would be erroneous to assume 
that averages define the actual range needs of most people.


Further, it matters how often people need to hop in the car and run an 
errand, handle an emergency or drive to the next town. Faster L2 
charging frees up the car for more trips in a day, and L3 opens the 
portal to nearby intercity trips. Supercharging opens the portal to 
interstate trips. All of these charging options make an EV that much 
more practical.


For the Volt there's a 300 mile generator included, so it's OK to design 
for "most trips." But for a BEV, the driver must consider the maximum 
trip required or have another vehicle to pick up that slack.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/13/15 1:08 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On May 13, 2015, at 11:51 AM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:


Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly everybody and L2 being 
overkill, I would ask "based on what data"?


Sorry...I had in mind overnight home charging, with the assumption that the 20 kWh you 
get from 12 hours @ 110V / 15A is going to be good enough for as many miles as nearly 
everybody is going to need in a day, especially given the types of efficiency figures 
we're headed towards and that Lawrence was advocating. At 250 Wh / mile, that's 80 miles. 
Even at 500 Wh / mile, that's still 40 miles, the range that Chevy targeted for the Volt 
as "almost good enough for 100% electric for almost everybody."

Yes, there will be exceptions...but how many people regularly drive more than 
40 miles in a day, and, of those, how many are going to want to do so in an EV 
that's only doing 500 Wh / mile?

Even more important...how many people are going to want to spend lots of extra 
money on an at-home fast charger if overnight L1 charging always leaves them 
with 80 miles more in the morning than they had at the end of the day before?

b&



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Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV



Good points about the importance of low weight and improved CD, 
Lawrence. If the Tesla Model 3 can be more efficient than the Model S, 
that would help get the price down from Model S levels while still 
maintaining their desired range. Carrying fewer batteries would help 
further with the weight side of the equation. It will be interesting to 
see what they can accomplish.


Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly 
everybody and L2 being overkill, I would ask "based on what data"?


I can tell you that the 6.6kW L2 charging ability _at home_ is what 
makes our 2013 LEAF practical for our use.


There are days when we charge several times, from home. Even 3.3kW L2 
would make the LEAF much less useful. Relying on slow L1 would make it 
necessary to drive another car much of the time.


Once there's a 160+ miles/charge LEAF with a larger battery pack, L1 
would be even less practical since it would take days to charge from empty.


Finally, L3 is what makes our LEAF practical for trips to nearby towns, 
where we can charge quickly near the destination in order to make the 
return trip. Having just L1 would eliminate the LEAF from that use case 
entirely, and even 6.6kW L2 would generally be too slow.


For longer road trips the supercharging approach works for the Model S, 
and it could work even better for more people given higher efficiency, 
lower cost vehicles in the future. The Model S is high performance but 
low efficiency.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/13/15 11:58 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

On May 13, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 wrote:
Most EV charging can and should reasonably be expected to be done
while the vehicle is parked, especially overnight at home. L1
chargers are today and always will be good enough for that for nearly
everybody, and L2 is pretty much guaranteed overkill for nearly all
the rest.



...but...unless the per-charge mileage is in the four-digit range,
there will be situations where people will want to charge, wherever
they happen to be, and they're not going to be happy if it takes more
than ten or fifteen minutes. And 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60
kilowatts...not quite the level of insanity of a megawatt, but still
in a range far beyond what you'd ever see in a residential setting.

The *real* problem is that I don't think that there's an overlap
between what rapid charging is likely to cost and what people are
likely to be willing to pay, especially when they're used to paying
on the order of $0.10 / kWh at home. And with low demand, the prices
would have to be even higher since they won't be spread out over as
many customers, driving down demand even further.

But without the option for rapid charging, a small but significant
minority of the miles people unthinkingly drive today simply can't be
done in an electric vehicle, creating a chicken-and-egg problem.

That's part of Tesla's marketing brilliance with their own rapid
charger network, but I don't know that it's something that can
realistically be made universal.

Perhaps our best real-world hope is for Tesla to offer universal
adapters to their superchargers for about the same price as they
charge to upgrade their vehicles to supercharger capability. (Same
price because Tesla's price includes their capital and operating
expenses for the network, not just whatever is done to the car
itself.) Done right, that would allow the minority who need to make
road trips in non-Tesla vehicles to do so...and it even opens up the
possibility for renting the adapters for rare road trips.

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Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?

2015-05-06 Thread Jamie K via EV



Here are some links regarding LEAF batteries, warranties and replacement:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1081362_nissan-leaf-battery-capacity-loss-covered-by-warranty-now

http://insideevs.com/nissan-makes-good-on-battery-warranty-plesge-for-2011-2012-leaf-owners-software-update/

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13192

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=19667&sid=08d58c219e5cba01e8d472a7289935c4

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168#p374490

Cheers,
 -Jamie



On 5/6/15 4:06 PM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

On 05/06/2015 05:00 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

...and possibly as well advice on what to avoid...I seem to remember
Leafs up to a certain year died quick deaths in the heat...? b&

I think that was the first year (2011?).  The year I had.  I don't
begrudge Nissan not getting their battery sorted out before selling
cars.  I do begrudge them refusing to fix the bad batteries.  Even
though they are supposedly fixed now, I will never buy another Nissan.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics & Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread Jamie K via EV


On 3/26/15 10:36 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote:



On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Jamie K via EV 
wrote:

For example, if the display shows 50%, then 50% of 20kWh is 10kWh.


Why bother with the intermediate conversion to KWH?  If you know how
far you can go on 50%, then you are done.


Because at any time I can multiply kWh times the displayed miles/kWh 
(which will change due to driving conditions) to quickly arrive at a 
range number in miles.


(Percentage remaining * 20kWh) * miles/kWh = instant range in miles

This is basically what the built-in guess-o-meter does, but now I have a 
way to confirm it, and a way to make a more accurate guess if, for 
example, I know I'm about to go up a long hill and the miles/kWh will go 
down (from my experience).


And using the LEAF V1.5 percentage readout I don't have to bother with 
the beautifully presented but hard-to-read and arbitrary bar display 
that people here have been complaining about, and I don't have to guess 
how long it's been at any particular bar position and how much of that 
bar might be left. 100 steps on a percentage basis is a finer measure to 
use than a smaller number of bars, and quicker to grok.


Of course if I had a LEAF V1 w/o the percentage display then yes, I 
think your method would be workable.


For that matter, on the 2013 LEAF at least, most of the time the 
guess-o-meter isn't too bad, and it only takes a quick glance. But since 
it can't look ahead, there are times when I like my method of confirmation.


Cheers,
 -Jamie



With my 2011 Leaf, I know I can travel 10 miles on the last bar, 20
miles on the last two bars, 29 on the last three bars and 37 on the
last four bars. This is with fully inflated tires,  the climate
control off, keeping the speed below 50mph, never accelerating hard
enough to have more than 3 power dots filled at once (there is always
one filled), and only using regen or coasting to slow down. If I keep
the speed under 35mph I can get another mile or so per bar.

I know to never be more than about 35 miles from home when I get to
the last four bars. Since the miles per bar on the first 8 bars is
significantly less it is essentially impossible to be more than 35
miles from home before getting to the last four bars.  The last four
bars is about 50%.  However, it is possible to be more than 20 miles
from home with only two bars left.  I make sure I plan to avoid this
situation.

Of course this algorithm gets thrown off a bit because a bar gets
erased every time the car is power cycled.  If I'm on a trip where I
care, I have to make sure I notice how many bars are active before I
shut it off.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics & Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread Jamie K via EV



Good points, Ben.

It's interesting to note how gas gauges are set up, psychologically. 
Here's one explanation:


 http://theappslab.com/2010/12/21/how-does-your-gas-gauge-really-work/

Compared to that, I appreciate the numeric charge percentage display on 
LEAF V1.5.


Cheers,
 -Jamie




On 3/26/15 9:58 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Jamie K via EV 
wrote:


That works for me, and it pretty much sums up what LEAF V1.5
(2013-2015) displays right now.


Good to know that it's a feature of one of the first-tier electric
vehicles on the market. Gives one hope that it'll be a standard long
into the future -- and, hopefully, one that gets refined with future
generations.

After all, it's not uncommon to have gas gauges on ICE vehicles that
behave less than ideally linearly due to tank shape or voltage
regulation or whatever, but I don't know that it's been a big
priority for manufacturers to improve gas gauges over the years.

But an EV should have far more than enough computational oomph to do
whatever is needed to properly refine a measurement of remaining kWh.
If experience shows that the estimate is too optimistic over the
bottom quarter of the display range, it's not _that_ hard to
initially add a fudge factor to the software...and, eventually, some
smart analytics to truly nail it.

b&




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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics & Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread Jamie K via EV

On 3/26/15 8:57 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
> That's the idea behind my suggestion of a "remaining (usable) kWh"
> gauge, For a century or so drivers have done just fine with a
> "remaining (usable) gallons of fuel" gauge and a basic idea of how
> far they can make it on a gallon of fuel based on current
> conditions.
>
> This whole voltage-based thing is irrelevant. What people want to
> know is how much energy is left, in whatever form, and they're fine
> translating that to distance with precision enough for typical
> driving.

Well put, Ben. That works for me, and it pretty much sums up what LEAF 
V1.5 (2013-2015) displays right now.

The percent-of-charge-remaining display shows how much charge is left as 
a percentage from 0-100%.

The pack is 24kWh, but I think it uses only about 20kWh of that. So 
multiply the percentage by 20 to get remaining kWh. (That may be a bit 
conservative but I don't mind erring on the conservative side.)

For example, if the display shows 50%, then 50% of 20kWh is 10kWh.

There is a resettable display of miles/kWh so you can see what you are 
getting on your current trip, both as an average and as an instant 
readout as you drive. Multiply remaining kWh by the miles per kWh you're 
achieving. That will give you a quick guesstimate of remaining range. 
Temper that by upcoming conditions, such as uphill or downhill driving 
and your experience with the route.

For example if you're getting 5 miles/kWh and you expect to be driving 
in similar conditions ahead, then you could likely go about 50 more 
miles on 50% charge remaining. For me, keeping a buffer just in case, I 
would be comfortable if the destination was within 30 miles or so at 
that point.

Even though the "miles remaining" guess-o-meter on the LEAF V1.5 is 
perhaps more accurate than in earlier models (more of an ongoing average 
and less prone to wild swings), it's still sometimes handy to have the 
LEAF V1.5's percent-of-charge-remaining display to confirm the 
situation. I leave the percent-of-charge-remaining display on the dash 
at all times.

If you want, you can also bring up the nav screen and see a circle 
outlining your current remaining guess-o-meter range on a map.

If things are getting tight, the nav system can show charging stations 
within guess-o-meter range. However I prefer to use Plugshare's app to 
investigate chargers since it seems more complete and up to date, and 
since it includes comments from others about the operational readiness 
of each charger.

All that said, after you've driven your typical routes a few times you 
can mostly ignore the gauges and just enjoy EV driving. (Unless you are 
trying to beat a personal efficiency record on a route, which can be 
fun. Or if driving conditions have changed, such as bad weather or 
traffic jams, where you may want an extra confirmation of how you're doing.)

Cheers,
 -Jamie
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Re: [EVDL] LEAF Version Distinctions

2015-03-26 Thread Jamie K via EV



Thanks Alan. I think you summed up the used LEAF choices perfectly. We 
were in that exact place a year and a half ago when we found a decent 
deal on our 2013 as a barely used car.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 3/26/15 12:52 PM, Alan Brinkman via EV wrote:

Jamie,

Your description of the variations of the Leaf is helpful. I have
been watching the used price of Leafs (Leaves) for some time now and
they have come down into the affordable range for me. I see a
difference in charging rate and also the changes in 2013. I need to
get my research done before I am ready to buy so I find a Leaf with
the fast charging capacity and the better options or find a low price
without the options and be happy.

Thanks for your description.

Alan

-Original Message- From: EV
[mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jamie K via EV Sent:
Thursday, March 26, 2015 9:22 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion
List Subject: [EVDL] LEAF Version Distinctions



It might be useful to make version distinctions when discussing
"the LEAF":



-We might call the 2011 and 2012 model years "LEAF V1."



-Models from 2013 forward (a year of major changes) we might call
"LEAF V1.5."



-The upcoming 150-200+ range LEAF we might call "LEAF V2" (unless
Nissan gives it some other unique moniker).



In addition, it would be useful to note the trim level, S, SV or
SL, since they have different standard features and available
option packages (for >example the more efficient LEAF V1.5 heat
pump feature is not available on the S).


-rest of message cut-
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[EVDL] LEAF Version Distinctions

2015-03-26 Thread Jamie K via EV

It might be useful to make version distinctions when discussing "the LEAF":

 -We might call the 2011 and 2012 model years "LEAF V1."

 -Models from 2013 forward (a year of major changes) we might call 
"LEAF V1.5."

 -The upcoming 150-200+ range LEAF we might call "LEAF V2" (unless 
Nissan gives it some other unique moniker).

In addition, it would be useful to note the trim level, S, SV or SL, 
since they have different standard features and available option 
packages (for example the more efficient LEAF V1.5 heat pump feature is 
not available on the S).

Consider LEAF V1.5:
In 2013 there were a lot of significant changes, some of which seem to 
be based on user requests. They include things like:

 -A direct percentage-of-charge readout on the dash.
 -Changes to battery chemistry.
 -Possible improvements to regen availability.
 -Combining motor and controller under the hood while increasing trunk 
space.

 -An option for improved heater efficiency with a heat pump.
 -Standardizing the cold weather battery heating option.
 -An option to double level 2 charging speed.
 -Ability to open the charge port from the remote.
 -A handy light inside the charge port.
 -Other improvements.

So LEAF V1.5 gained a combination of battery/drivetrain upgrades, 
efficiency upgrades and convenience features. In those ways, it's a 
different car.

Sometimes I read reports here about "the LEAF" that really apply to 
previous experiences with LEAF V1, but don't necessarily apply in the 
same way to LEAF V1.5. That could be confusing to anyone who doesn't 
know the differences.

For example:
There have been complaints made here recently about the LEAF's 
instrumentation, specifically the bars that indicate battery level.

In LEAF V1.5 that problem has been dealt with: A new and useful direct 
battery percentage readout was added (the bars are still there but you 
can ignore them).

So while it's fine to complain about LEAF V1's lack of such a feature, 
obviously current LEAFs do not have that problem. (This change was 
likely due to Nissan reacting to the many complaints about LEAF V1's 
instrumentation.)

Another example:
On 3/25/15 7:07 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote:
>The best I have ever
> been able to do with my Leaf was 81 miles.

It sounds like Ed's LEAF may be a 2011 or 12, a LEAF V1.

By contrast, for our 1.5 year old 2013 LEAF SV (LEAF V1.5): On warm days 
we often get more than 5 miles per kWh, which leads to a range of 
slightly more than 100 miles at 100% charge, quite an improvement over 
Ed's best result.

On cold winter days we may only get 3.3 miles/kWH, sometimes more, 
sometimes slightly less.

Background info on range: We drive in Eco mode (but don't hesitate to 
floor it when necessary for max acceleration). We have varying terrain 
with hills. We use mixed driving speeds on roads with typical speed 
limits of 30-65mph, often 45 and above. We use heat when cold (any 
combination of heat pump, heated seats and heated steering wheel as 
needed) and AC when hot, otherwise vent fan or open window when it's 
pleasant out. We sometimes use cruise control on longer stretches.

The difference between Ed's LEAF experience and ours could be any 
combination of a variety of things, such as battery chemistry 
improvements in LEAF v1.5; earlier use of regen in LEAF V1.5; the heat 
pump option in LEAF v1.5; drive train improvements in LEAF v1.5; driving 
styles; driving mode; climate; traffic; road conditions; terrain 
differences; average speed; or ?

2013 is the last year that an 80% charging is selectable and we 
generally use that unless we think we'll need the extra range of 100%.

Interestingly, our LEAF V1.5 gains back the first ring of regen at 
around 98% charge indicated which is sooner than what I've heard 
reported about LEAF V1. That could come down to battery chemistry 
changes allowing modifications to battery management, which might also 
lead to better handling of DC fast charging.

Cheers,
 -Jamie

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics & Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV

On 3/25/15 2:48 PM, Michael Ross wrote:

I won't challenge your ideas of Li ion cell life here, but there is new
information. We have gone around that recently on the list.

Why Li ion batteries die. by Dr. Jeff Dahn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs

Dahn says that cells don't have to die, and I believe him.

Thanks again for the video link from Oct 31, 2013. In it Dahn said,
theoretically, if CE=1 (charge=discharge) the cell will last forever.

But more realistically he talked about efforts to improve cell life by
using additives to incrementally reduce coulombic inefficiency. His
measurement techniques allow quick experiments to find the most
effective combinations of additives. Clever approach.

I may have missed the part where he made a claim for actual infinite
battery life, but he did show evidence of how different chemical
additives measurably improve the life of the cells, by apparently
reducing parasitic reactions that can cause a premature drop in battery
performance due to plating.

That aligns with speculation about how Nissan may have progressively
adjusted their battery chemistry in their newer packs, in attempts to
mitigate premature degradation seen in earlier packs in hot climates.

Cheers,
-Jamie

Rickard (EVTV) thinks he proved that LFP cells have a shelf life
(deteriorate a little just sitting).. I am not sure his estimates are
definitive.

For the original work on high precision coulometry:
http://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/publications.html

Aaron Smith is now the engineer responsible for cell life at Tesla.
Chris Burns is building and selling HPC test equipment.
http://www.novonix.ca/

Linden's Handbook of Batteries - Chapter 26.
*http://tinyurl.com/narq9nw*
*
*
Best regards,

MIke
*
*

On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Jamie K via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:

On 3/25/15 10:11 AM, Michael Ross wrote:

Yes, the severe problem is in hot climates. So much of Europe
is not
going to see the issue. Though some may. Put a charged Leaf in a
garage on a rock in Greece or Spain, let it heat up good in the
summer
sun and you will see some deterioration like in AZ. Unless they
have
made some improvements.

Casual speculation aside, yes, they have made ongoing improvements
to the LEAF battery pack. It's worth reading this link:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&hilit=+battery+update#p374490

<http://www.mynissanleaf.com/__viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&__hilit=+battery+update#p374490>

Five year warranty on a pack is not really very good. If you get
to 5
years, do they honor it further out to 60K? No, or they would
just have
a 60K warranty. So it is 5 years or less if one drives 60K.
Here in the
US 60k miles might use up $6000 in fuel on a similar size ICE
car, less
if the car is efficient.

Here is Nissan's information on the battery warranty:

http://nissannews.com/en-US/__nissan/usa/releases/nissan-__announces-battery-replacement-__program-for-leaf

<http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-announces-battery-replacement-program-for-leaf>

It's hard to predict what a gas car's fuel cost will be over the
next five years in the USA, but it's a fair guess that the price
will remain volatile and trend upwards, on average. Electricity
prices are generally lower, less volatile and costs generally go up
more slowly. Some folks lock in a low electric cost by installing
solar panels. It also helps that electric cars are more efficient
than gas cars.

At ~60 miles to a charge, not much driving gets done, and a Leaf
yields
a poor payback against gas prices in the US if the battery pack
makes
trouble. If I had to buy a $5500 pack and some unknown labor
every 5
years that would really suck. I expect cars to last 10+ years.

According to my understanding of Li ion cells, it is possible to
select
cells, make packs and manage them for nearly unlimited life with
no loss
of capacity. You have to cool them, oversize them, undercharge
them, and
under discharge them. Not many EV manufacturers on that path
yet. Here
is hoping the new testing catches on and they all wise up.

AFAIK there are two ways that lithium batteries deteriorate:
By use (cycles) and by calendar life. Managing charge levels and
temperature helps optimize battery life within those limits. I
haven't heard of an infinite life lithium battery, but maybe that
will happen someday.

Meanwhile a roughly 24kWh battery at $6K or less for replacement
(today's cost) after 5-10 years (depending on how much range you
need) is about $250

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics & Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV



I think your point is clear, Willie2. You had a bad experience with 
Nissan and will never trust them again. That's understandable. So far 
you're happy with your Tesla, which is also understandable, especially 
given your range needs.


I'm glad you found a better car for your purposes, and thanks for being 
an early adopter of new technology despite the risks.


Even though it may not matter to you, it's worth noting generally that 
Nissan's product has improved since your experience. For that matter, 
Tesla's product has also improved over time.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 3/25/15 2:14 PM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

On 03/25/2015 12:37 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:


Willie2, it sounds like the Model S is a great fit for your needs. If
70% of the initial LEAF range meant it "lost nearly all its utility"
then you were really on the edge with that car. Given the battery
improvements since then, I would expect that 2013+ LEAF packs will
generally hold up longer than what you experienced. Time will tell.

Maybe I failed to make my point.  At this point, I don't care if/when
Nissan can make a reliable battery.  I now know that their warranty is
worthless and they have lost me as a customer and potential customer.  A
potentially troublesome battery is not a deal breaker.  IF the maker is
honorable and can be relied on to fulfil his obligations.  Nissan can not.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics & Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV



The LEAF instrumentation has changed since 2011/12. On the 2013+ LEAF 
models, there is a new percentage of charge remaining display option - a 
useful improvement. Also, the "guess-o-meter," the miles remaining 
display, has an improved algorithm.


Using the percentage of charge display and the miles/kWh display you can 
do your own estimating to double check the car's best guess, since you 
know more about the upcoming driving conditions, driving style and route 
ahead than the car does (it only looks at past performance).


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 3/25/15 2:24 PM, Willie2 via EV wrote:

On 03/25/2015 03:14 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote:

Their instrumentation is not very linear. When fully (100%) charged,
the state of charge gauge indicates 12 bars. The 12th bar lasts for
about 3 miles on residential/commercial (25mph -



bar left. The first 36 miles took 8 bars, the last 37.5 miles took
less than 4 bars. The state of charge algorithm also removes one of
the bars every time the car is power cycled if more than half a bar is
used. That is very annoying. I get out of the car with four bars
remaining, and get back in with just three. It eventually recovers
from this mistake, but it means I have to remember where it was when I
turned the car off. The only thing I will say about the miles
remaining meter is that it is inaccurate. The display is disabled when
the number would go below four, so it wouldn’t even say zero when the
pack was completely

Ed, are you aware of the Android app "Leaf Spy" (I think is the name)? I
don't have any experience with it but I have a similar thing for my
imiev.  With a $10-$60 OBD reader, it should give you the straight scoop
on your energy flows.

Have you ever wondered WHY the Leaf's instrumentation is so crappy? It
seems to me that they must have intentionally made it so.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics & Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV



On 3/25/15 10:54 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Ok, you've convinced me, Willie, that I should have a Tesla.  I'm going
to open a kickstarter campaign to get me Tesla.  Anyone who contributes
will get free use for a day :)


Whatta deal! Or just wait a few years and get the model 3...

Willie2, it sounds like the Model S is a great fit for your needs. If 
70% of the initial LEAF range meant it "lost nearly all its utility" 
then you were really on the edge with that car. Given the battery 
improvements since then, I would expect that 2013+ LEAF packs will 
generally hold up longer than what you experienced. Time will tell.


Cheers,
 -Jamie



Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie2 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 25-Mar-15 9:45:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics &
Critics (?)


On 03/25/2015 10:34 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:


Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement.
Replacements are with the so-called "Lizard" battery pack, which is
reported to be more tolerant of hotter climates.


I know from personal experience that Nissan has been less than
honorable in dealing with battery warranty issues. Their
instrumentation obfuscates the true situation. IMHO, that is by
design. "Bars" have almost no meaning. The car owner has no idea what
true battery capacity is other than by observing declining range.
Nissan uses this dearth of owner accessible information to deny
capacity loss.

Even if honored, the warranty is nearly useless. It specifies at least
30% capacity loss (as determined by Nissan). By the time a Leaf is 30%
down in capacity, it has lost almost all of it's utility. And it seems
likely that Nissan is forcing owners to suffer to 40% or 50% loss
before warranty replacement.

My Leaf went from about 95 miles of range down to about 65 miles. With
65 miles of range, Nissan declared my battery to be "fine" and refused
to replace. For the first year, my Leaf served about 90% of my needs.
With 65 miles of range, it was less than 50%. I went from being able
to drive the Leaf about 15k miles per year to way less than 10k miles.
With such crappy range, the car was not worth keeping.

I bought the Leaf with the expectation that the battery would serve
for at least five years and, when it was time for replacement, cheaper
and bigger batteries would be available. I found it to have a two year
battery with no warranty protection.

I was extremely happy with my Leaf. For the first year. I'm at two
years on the Tesla and still extremely happy. The Tesla has gone 50k
miles in two years and has lost about 5% of capacity. Tesla
instrumentation is honest and clear, much in contrast to the Leaf's.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics & Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV

On 3/25/15 10:11 AM, Michael Ross wrote:

Yes, the severe problem is in hot climates. So much of Europe is not
going to see the issue. Though some may. Put a charged Leaf in a
garage on a rock in Greece or Spain, let it heat up good in the summer
sun and you will see some deterioration like in AZ. Unless they have
made some improvements.

Casual speculation aside, yes, they have made ongoing improvements to
the LEAF battery pack. It's worth reading this link:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/__viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&__hilit=+battery+update#p374490

Five year warranty on a pack is not really very good. If you get to 5
years, do they honor it further out to 60K? No, or they would just have
a 60K warranty. So it is 5 years or less if one drives 60K. Here in the
US 60k miles might use up $6000 in fuel on a similar size ICE car, less
if the car is efficient.

Here is Nissan's information on the battery warranty:

http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-announces-battery-replacement-program-for-leaf

It's hard to predict what a gas car's fuel cost will be over the next
five years in the USA, but it's a fair guess that the price will remain
volatile and trend upwards, on average. Electricity prices are generally
lower, less volatile and costs generally go up more slowly. Some folks
lock in a low electric cost by installing solar panels. It also helps
that electric cars are more efficient than gas cars.

At ~60 miles to a charge, not much driving gets done, and a Leaf yields
a poor payback against gas prices in the US if the battery pack makes
trouble. If I had to buy a $5500 pack and some unknown labor every 5
years that would really suck. I expect cars to last 10+ years.

According to my understanding of Li ion cells, it is possible to select
cells, make packs and manage them for nearly unlimited life with no loss
of capacity. You have to cool them, oversize them, undercharge them, and
under discharge them. Not many EV manufacturers on that path yet. Here
is hoping the new testing catches on and they all wise up.

AFAIK there are two ways that lithium batteries deteriorate:
By use (cycles) and by calendar life. Managing charge levels and
temperature helps optimize battery life within those limits. I haven't
heard of an infinite life lithium battery, but maybe that will happen
someday.

Meanwhile a roughly 24kWh battery at $6K or less for replacement
(today's cost) after 5-10 years (depending on how much range you need)
is about $250 per KWh, which is actually a market leading low price. The
price could come down further and/or the available capacity of the pack
could go up by the time a typical LEAF pack would need to be replaced.

If ROI is your primary consideration when purchasing a car then you
would want to make a complete accounting, including all of the
maintenance and repair expenses over whatever you consider to be the
car's useful life. Plus fuel costs.

I would put battery replacement in the maintenance/repair category.
There isn't much else in that category for the LEAF since it obviously
doesn't require a gas car's typical engine/transmission/fuel
system/exhaust system parts-fest. With regen, the LEAF doesn't even use
the brake pads much.

The LEAF is widely available today, has a decent feature set, and an
improved battery from at least 2013 forward. Electric vehicles offer
important advantages, so I'm glad it's available along with other
choices. It's the current best-selling BEV for a variety of reasons.
Only you know what works for you.

Cheers,
-Jamie

On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Jamie K via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:

On 3/25/15 3:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

% Some U.S. Leaf owners would state differently %

Yes, but to be fair it looks like the quoted articles are about Europe.

AFAIK the US problem was primarily in hot climates in some earlier
models. It's been reported that the packs have been updated a few
times since then. 2013+ LEAF packs have a better reputation.

Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement.
Replacements are with the so-called "Lizard" battery pack, which is
reported to be more tolerant of hotter climates.

To outright purchase a replacement pack costs $5500 with trade-in of
the old pack, plus installation (and a necessary upgrade kit for
earlier 2011/2012 models which would add up to about $6k total).
Warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles against defects and 5 years/60,000
miles against capacity loss.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/__viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&__hilit=+battery+update#p374490

<http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&hilit=+battery+update#p374490>

Cheers,
-Jamie

https://3d-car-shows.com/__nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-__outperforms-cyn

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics & Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV



On 3/25/15 3:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

% Some U.S. Leaf owners would state differently %


Yes, but to be fair it looks like the quoted articles are about Europe.

AFAIK the US problem was primarily in hot climates in some earlier 
models. It's been reported that the packs have been updated a few times 
since then. 2013+ LEAF packs have a better reputation.


Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement. Replacements 
are with the so-called "Lizard" battery pack, which is reported to be 
more tolerant of hotter climates.


To outright purchase a replacement pack costs $5500 with trade-in of the 
old pack, plus installation (and a necessary upgrade kit for earlier 
2011/2012 models which would add up to about $6k total). Warranty is 8 
years/100,000 miles against defects and 5 years/60,000 miles against 
capacity loss.


http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&hilit=+battery+update#p374490

Cheers,
 -Jamie



https://3d-car-shows.com/nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives/
NISSAN LEAF BATTERY RELIABLY OUTPERFORMS CYNICS, CRITICS AND ALTERNATIVES
March 23, 2015  By Gerald Ferreira

[image
https://3d-car-shows.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/nissan-leaf.jpg


video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V1bJJwJhEg
Nissan LEAF Battery Reliability Outperforms Cynics, Critics and Alternatives
Nissan Europe  Mar 17, 2015
- Just 0.01% of batteries have been replaced since 2010
- More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to industry
averages

§ Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling electric car, with more than
30,000 sold across Europe
]

  - Five years on, Nissan reports 99.99% battery success rate across Europe

  - More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to industry
averages

  - Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling all-electric car, with over
165,000 sold globally

Rolle, Switzerland, 19 February 2015: Five years and more than 35,000
European sales since the launch of its all-electric LEAF, proprietary data
released by Nissan for the first time shows that 99.99 percent of its
battery units remain entirely fit for purpose.

The findings will silence naysayers who, in 2010, claimed that “batteries
would need to be fully replaced after three years,” or that “high-mileage
LEAFs would experience a noticeable drop in battery capacity in the first
year of ownership.”

In fact, the failure rate of the battery power unit is less than 0.01
percent – or just three units in total – a fraction of the equivalent
industry-wide? figure for defects affecting traditional combustion engines.

To prove the long-term reliability of the battery technology, Nissan tracked
down a rather infamous early model, whose owner is still enjoying fault-free
motoring in her LEAF three years on:

Electric vehicle advocate and presenter of online TV channel Fully Charged,
Robert Llewellyn commented: “This comes as no surprise. There was a lot of
apprehension about electric technology in the beginning, but with sales
climbing month-on-month I struggle to see how these myths continue to be
regurgitated today.”

The Nissan LEAF has smashed its own sales record with a 33 percent increase
in sales in 2014 over the previous year, taking more than a quarter of the
burgeoning electric car market with 15,098 sales.

Jean-Pierre Diernaz, Director of Electric Vehicles for Nissan in Europe,
comments: “The facts speak for themselves. The rate of battery faults in our
vehicles is negligible, even the most ardent critic cannot argue with that.

“The battery technology is just part of our success story. With over 165,000
customers globally, it’s clear that we’re not the only people who are
thrilled by the success of this state-of-the-art technology.”

With just three main components – the on-board charger, inverter and motor –
the Nissan LEAF is also 40 percent cheaper to maintain compared to petrol or
diesel-powered alternatives.

The Nissan LEAF launched over four years ago in 2010, as one of the first
mass-market, pure-electric vehicles. It is now the best-selling electric
vehicle in history, with over 165,000 LEAF vehicles sold globally, more than
35,000 of which have been sold in Europe; clocking up an impressive one
billion kilometres worldwide.
[© 3d-car-shows.com]
...
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2015/03/23/127476-nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives.html
Nissan LEAF Battery Reliably Outperforms Cynics, Critics and Alternatives
23 March 2015



http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/business/nissan-sends-powerful-message-to-those-who-doubt-electric-vehicles-1-7171329
Nissan sends powerful message to those who doubt electric vehicles
Fiona Thompson  23 March 2015

NISSAN’S Leaf batteries have shown they go the distance after less than 0.01
per cent of those installed in 35,000 cars have failed.

Five years after the first models were built, data has shown 99.9per cent of
the battery units made remain fit for purpose, with j

Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)

2015-03-10 Thread Jamie K via EV

On 3/10/15 9:02 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
> Actually...I rather suspect that, by the time we get to a true
> no-frills EV from major manufacturers -- your archetypal base-model
> $15k econobox -- they'll come with at least 100 mile ranges, and the

We're under that 15k price now, for new EVs. Used LEAFs with more frills 
are also available now for under 15K.

The Mitsubishi iMiev is 23000, minus 7500 federal tax refund for anyone
who qualifies makes it 15,500, minus state incentives: In California,
Colorado and Georgia it could be well under $15k this year.

If two seats would suffice: The electric Smart car is a few thousand 
more, but it can be purchased for under 15K with incentives in some 
states (even less w/battery lease option, depending on how you account 
for that cost).

Range wise, the next step for mid-priced EVs is a 200-ish range. Those 
BEV models are a few years out, so far including LEAF 2, Bolt, Model 3 
and maybe a few others, none of which are likely to be under 15K.

That would leave room for Mitsubishi and Smart to up their range and 
still hit a lower price point. Or for Nissan to differentiate the LEAF 
by range levels and have a lower priced model. Or for another player to 
step in. So we'll see...

Cheers,
 -Jamie

On 3/10/15 9:02 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

On Mar 10, 2015, at 7:11 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV
 wrote:

And the other error in my thinking is that MFR's simply are not
going to make a NO-FRILLS 40 mile EV this early in the game

Actually...I rather suspect that, by the time we get to a true
no-frills EV from major manufacturers -- your archetypal base-model
$15k econobox -- they'll come with at least 100 mile ranges, and the
manufacturers simply won't offer them until they can sell them at a
profit at that price point. And, over time, those ranges will rise.
Eventually, you won't be able to buy an EV from a major manufacturer
with less than a couple hundred miles of range guaranteed for the
term of the warrantee -- just as you can't buy a gas-powered vehicle
with a tank smaller than about eight gallons.

And those people with 40 MPG city cars with eight-gallon tanks...when
was the last time they used more than five gallons before filling up?
So isn't that "extra" three gallons of tank just a waste? Why not
just give the cars two gallon tanks, since 80 miles is more than you
need in a day for a commuter and you can top it off in just a minute
at gas stations anywhere for the price of a pseudo-coffee beverage
from Starbucks?

Yes, home charging changes the equation with EVs...but only
marginally. For virtually all car owners today, the downsides of a
range just barely more than their typical daily usage far outweigh
any possible convenience home charging could ever give.

The _real_ winner is long-range EVs that you normally charge at home
but can also get a quick charge from a rest stop. Day-to-day, you
drive for free without ever having to go to a gas station and always
start with a full tank...but you can also drive to grandma's on the
weekends just as you would in a gas-powered vehicle today. That's
what Tesla is working towards, and they're exactly right to do so.
Now, if only their charging network wasn't proprietary and if they
dropped all the control freak stuff

Cheers,

b& -- next part -- A non-text attachment was
scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size:
801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL:

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Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me)

2015-03-09 Thread Jamie K via EV



Could any of the current shorter range BEV options work for you, Bob?

The Mitsubishi iMiev or Smart ED are shorter range, lower priced BEV 
options (no superfluous ICE). Either may be worth considering for more 
affordable 30 mile commuter use, if available in your area. Or perhaps a 
used iMiev or Smart for even less. Both are below 80 miles range EPA, 
but still with a bit extra over 40 to handle the considerations Bill 
brought up.


Or a used LEAF with less than the current model 84 miles EPA range but 
still sufficiently over 40, they are widely available and getting more 
affordable every day. Or a used Chevy Spark, if available in your area.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 3/9/15 5:02 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

You will need the few miles of extra range when:

1) The car gets a number of years old, and the pack ages a bit.
2)  Winter, bad weather, etc.
3) Construction/accident detour.
4) Unnoticed low pressure in tire.
etc, etc, etc

 It is nice to have a little extra cushion in the total range.

At 04:53 PM 3/9/2015, you wrote:

My answer:   I'm waiting for a 40 mile BEV.  The Prius 12mi is too short
and both it and the VOLT haul along an entirely not needed ICE (adding
$10k to the price) (I have 2 other salvage Prius for all the distance I
need).  And my daily commute is 30 mi total.  40 miles for me.

Unwilling to pay the extra $6k for the final 40 miles of the current crop
of 80 mile BEV's that I'd never use.

Bob


-Original Message-
Ok, we've seen both sides of the "wasteful" range question.  Let me pose
this: how close to saturation are we for the market of people who can
afford and are willing to have an additional car just so they can buy a
short range (50+ miles) for local driving.

That is, how many people are left who will buy a short range EV with the
justification they also have an ICE car for longer distances?
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: iMiev remains cheap EV champ> nil changes, 2016 model in March

2015-03-03 Thread Jamie K via EV

On 3/3/15 8:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> So, why aren’t people buying it?  I've heard a number of assertions that
> a cheap, efficient, small car "should be" the ideal choice for some
> segment of people.  But, still, the sales are practically nonexistent.

According to InsideEVs.com, Mitsubishi hasn't been importing the i-Miev 
in significant numbers - a crucial point left out of the quoted 10tv.com 
story. Check out the InsideEVs links below.

Cheers,
 -Jamie

http://insideevs.com/january-2015-plug-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/

"Mitsu continues to learn the lesson of “If you don’t ship any 
inventory, its hard to sell cars.”

For December national inventories contracted further still, with about 
80 2014 MY cars available…and suspiciously zero 2015s.

The cold hard fact on the i-MiEV is that Mitsubishi really doesn’t make 
any money on the car, and they do on the Outlander PHEV…which they still 
can’t make enough of, so they aren’t shipping i-MiEVs to the US, and 
they may never ship them before the model fades away shortly. No better 
example of this unwillingness to sell the car is in states such as 
Georgia, whose generous state-level incentive almost makes the car 
completely free on a lease."

http://insideevs.com/exclusive-look-whos-back-2016-mitsubishi-i-miev-arrives-for-us-in-march/

"Well, if you have been following EV sales (check out our scorecard here 
for ALL the data), you know that Mitsubishi has been selling next to 
nothing when it comes to the i-MiEV in the United States.

In fact only 195 were sold all of 2014..and all of them were 2014 model 
year cars.  There was no 2015 model year inventory – Mitsu didn’t ship 
any, or for that matter, register the model with the Department of 
Energy even.

This means that through a quirk in the way manufacturers can bill a 
“new” offering into the market, Mitsu can use next year’s moniker today. 
 Much like in the same way the next generation Chevrolet Volt will be a 
2016 (full details on that car here), even though first copies could (in 
theory) arrive as early as late July/early August.

We would like to take a moment to note that this move is not without 
precedent, as there was also no 2013 model year i-MiEV brought to the 
US, and ultimately no more than 400 2014 i-MiEVs were shipped to America 
by our estimates."

On 3/3/15 8:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

So, why aren’t people buying it?  I've heard a number of assertions that
a cheap, efficient, small car "should be" the ideal choice for some
segment of people.  But, still, the sales are practically nonexistent.

I can speak for myself: I bought the Leaf because, at the time, it was
only about $2K more than the iMiev but came with ample room for 4
adults, had slightly more range, and came with quick charge.

If I were to buy today, I very well might have bought the iMiev because
the price is so much less.  I've only used quick charge a few times and,
without, would simply use a different vehicle for those cases.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 03-Mar-15 3:03:25 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: iMiev remains cheap EV champ> nil changes, 2016
model in March

http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/apexchange/2015/02/24/us-mitsubishi-electric-car.html

Mitsubishi's iMiev remains cheapest electric
February 24, 2015

DETROIT (AP) — Mitsubishi's 2016 iMiev will remain the cheapest
electric car
on the market when it goes on sale in the U.S. next month.

The tiny four-seater starts at $22,995, the same as the previous model
year.
With a $7,500 federal tax credit, the price drops to $15,495.

Standard features include heated front seats, remote keyless entry and an
eight-year, 100,000-mile warranty on the battery pack.

The iMiev was introduced in 2011. Two years later, Mitsubishi dropped its
price by $5,000 to ensure it would be cheaper than newer entries like the
electric Chevrolet Spark.

But the car hasn't been a big seller. Mitsubishi sold 196 iMievs in
the U.S.
last year, down 81 percent from the previous year. By comparison, Nissan
sold more than 30,000 electric Leaf sedans.
©2015 by The Associated Press
[© 10tv.com]

https://transportevolved.com/2015/02/24/mitsubishi-confirms-no-price-cut-for-2016-i-miev-electric-car-adds-optional-touchscreen-navigation-package/

Mitsubishi Confirms No Price Cut for 2016 i-Miev Electric Car, Adds
Optional
Touchscreen Navigation Package
February 24, 2015 By Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield

[images
https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2014-mitsubishi-i-miev-4-door-hb-es-angular-front-exterior-view_100460333_l.jpg

There’s no change between the 2014 and 2016 model year i-Miev — save a
$2,000 optional sat-nav system

https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/14MY_imiev_12_3_13-1.jpg

Fun and functional, the i-Miev is a great entry-level car. But its
limited
range may put some off
] ... [© transportevolved.com]

http://www.a

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: PG&E wants CA ratepayers to pay bill for $653M public

2015-02-12 Thread Jamie K via EV



On 2/12/15 7:09 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Even I would balk at that!  $25,000 per charging station when a $15 GFCI
ouitlet from Home Depot can do the same thing most of the time!


Leaving aside any discussion about who should pay for level three 
charging stations, and how the business model might work, I just want to 
add a perspective on the increased utility of electric cars with fast 
charging capability.


Level one charging does not offer the same utility as even level two 
charging, let alone level three. By changing the charging capability and 
you change what the car can do. By expanding what the car can do you 
increase the number of people who can consider using it.


A level one connection does only one thing, and that's a slow charge 
suitable for overnight at home or much of the day at work, for those who 
drive within a range covered by that approach, and who have access to 
home or work charging. Or if a car is left for a sufficient period of 
time, like at an airport.


So yes, for such particular use cases, it can be great. But these use 
cases may not cover most people most of the time.


Level one charging greatly limits the utility of the vehicle because you 
only get a small amount of range per charging hour. There are times you 
may want to jump in the car and run an errand and you can't.


There are people who need to drive outside of those constraints. So 
level one charging limits the number of people for whom an electric 
vehicle might fit, and makes the vehicle more of a compromise.


Level two at 6.6kw allows our electric car to regain charge relatively 
quickly so it can easily drive more than twice its single charge range 
within the same day.


That is a huge jump in vehicle flexibility and utility. It probably 
works best for those with level two charging at home or work, depending 
on where you are when you need to juice up. It also works if you're 
driving to a destination where you will be for a while, like a movie, 
concert or meeting, if you can plug in while doing your activity.


Level two is useful, but less so, for trips where you need to charge 
halfway between start and destination, because for that use you have to 
wait out the charge time and it still takes hours. It helps to combine 
it with a stop where you can do something useful for those hours, but 
not every such trip is conducive to that.


Level three charging, which our car also has, is another huge jump in 
vehicle utility because the wait time to recharge is much, much less, so 
it makes longer regional trips more practical. Thirty minutes or less is 
much more doable than multiple hours.


In Colorado, with level three charging, I can easily drive from Denver 
to Fort Collins and back within a single day. That's a big jump in 
utility over level two charging, for me.


Sadly, there's no level three charging available in Colorado Springs. 
For the cost of just a few more level three chargers in, say, Castle 
Rock and Colorado Springs, I could drive from Fort Collins to Pueblo.


Just two more level three chargers, added to the ones already existing 
in Fort Collins, Loveland, Denver, Greeley and Pueblo, would open up the 
long Colorado front range metro area to my LEAF.


Again, I'm just commenting on that one issue, the relative utility of 
level 1, 2 and 3 charging.


I don't know how the California chargers in question would be sited, but 
if they use them to eliminate holes in the charging network to similarly 
increase the utility of the existing level 3 capable electric car fleet 
for people who live there, it could do a lot to make electric cars more 
useful to more people. It could increase their useful daily range to 
become regional vehicle. (I'm not advocating using the current LEAF for 
interstate driving).


Increasing the flexibility and utility of electric vehicles in a way 
that moves them beyond just the simple level one commuter use, (as 
wonderful as that limited use may be for some people), helps to expand 
the market for these cleaner vehicles.


Cheers,
 -Jamie








http://www.mantecabulletin.com/section/140/article/120539/
PG&E wants ratepayers to pay bill for $653M in car chargers
The state’s biggest utility wants to install 25,000 electric car charging
stations across Northern and Central California and have customers foot
the bill.



More than 60,000 plug-in electric vehicles are currently registered in
PG&E’s service area in Central and Northern California.
But there are only 1,991 charging stations statewide, according to the
U.S.


Lets see.  That's 1 public charger already exists for every 30 EV's already.
Or about 3%..  Yep  That coincidently matches the State of Maryland's
determination that 97% of all charging at work can be done from standard
120v outlets while vehicles are parked at work..

EV's are not optimum nor designed for distant travel.  Throwing money at the
problem to try to make EV's distant travlers will disappoint EVERYONE and in
the long

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Theobald’s sun-powered customized 1966 VW e-Bus

2014-11-23 Thread Jamie K via EV



On 11/23/14, 9:36 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

It's a neat gimmick, but I still say the solar panels belong on the roof of the 
house, not the vehicle. Better efficiencies all the way 'round, much more 
cost-effective, and excess generation capacity doesn't go to waste.

For s special-purpose vehicle out in the middle of nowhere (or even on the 
surface of Mars), it makes sense to carry around the solar panels. Everywhere 
else...fix the panels to the ground where they're optimally positioned and make 
use of every watt-hour they generate.


Generally agree, but it seems solar on the car is sufficient for his 
specific needs AND more convenient.


Consider that he said:  “I have used the bus to go back and forth from 
school, commute to work on a daily basis—the panels provide enough 
energy to the batteries I never have to plug in."


If he doesn't have to drive fast or far, I can see how his approach 
makes sense. Even in the middle of somewhere. :^)


Cheers,
 -Jamie




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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: As EV battery prices fall> ?More range or lower 100mi EV cost?

2014-08-29 Thread Jamie K via EV



You bring up a lot of useful considerations, Ben.

I'll just quibble somewhat with your conclusion below about BEVs as a 
"second car."


"...for families that are going to have two cars anyway..."

Actually a lot of folks are reporting that what becomes the "second car" 
is the ICE, not the BEV.


That's our experience, too. We drive the electric car on the vast 
majority of our trips, while the ICE car is used rarely.


Of course YMMV.

With current tech, something like the Volt makes sense for a single car 
family when usage patterns (and budget) requires some percentage of long 
trips beyond affordable electric range and/or fast charging.


But for a two car family the possibilities open up a bit more, and 
that's where  trip length statistics favor the BEV as being the "first 
car" covering most of the trips. Maybe unexpectedly so, for some folks. 
The Volt can be a good second car in that scenario.


So, bottom line, it's good to have choices right now. People have 
different needs to meet. As you pointed out, all the options we're 
discussing help transfer miles to electric.


As the battery tech and charging infrastructure continue to develop, the 
BEV configuration becomes more and more applicable to more and more 
driving patterns.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 8/29/14 4:43 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

On Aug 29, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:


I think one could argue that if you take a 100 mile trip once every
6 weeks, an EV for everything else might work.  Renting once every
6 weeks would be reasonable, perhaps.


For some, perhaps. It's definitely much less convenient than
get-in-the-car-and-go -- you've got to make reservations, get to the
rental place during business hours, deal with all the paperwork,
return the car during business hours, make sure you drop it off with
a full tank...especially if you were looking to get an early start or
come back late at night, that starts to turn into either or both a
major inconvenience or significant additional expense. Possibly
_very_ significant if you have to take time off work to pick up and /
or return the car and pay for an additional day or two of rental
fees.

Basically, unless you're already renting for longer trips, switching
to renting probably isn't going to be something you consider. Most
people who rent cars do so after flying to their destination, and
only small percentages do so in lieu of driving their own cars. BEVs
aren't going to change the mental dynamics of that situation.

But there's a larger problem. If everybody who currently drives their
own vehicle for 80+ mile trips now needs to rent a car, those car
rental companies need to dramatically expand and add huge numbers of
gasoline cars to their fleets -- and have that much more parking
space capacity both for their own vehicles and those of their
clients, and all the rest. That cuts an awful lot into expected
environmental gains as an whole -- you've still got huge numbers of
gasoline cars being made and driven, plus being dumped onto the used
car market after a year.

Again, contrast that with the Volt and presumed future PHEVs with
similar specs: they're pure electric BEVs for Dennis's 85% of trips,
and they're 40% electric for 100-mile trips. And all this in a single
vehicle, with no need for a second one.

It'll be fantastic when BEVs can compete with that...but that day is
a looong time coming.

In the mean time, BEVs as a great possibility for the second car for
families that're going to have two cars anyway, and PHEVs in place of
pure gasoline cars for all the rest. And, please, let's not pretend
otherwise!

Cheers,

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Re: [EVDL] 500 $ per charge???

2014-07-09 Thread Jamie K via EV


On 7/9/14 8:34 AM, Electric Blue auto convertions via EV wrote:

I was reading post and saw David and some one else talking about Tesla charges 
going back & forth from NYC to DC. @ 500$ per charge?? i would rather own a 
dodge viper and know up front I am getting hosed at the gas pump. Thats 
ridiculous...500$ or am I reading it wrong? Or coming in on this topic to late ??


He was taking the price difference between the two Model S battery 
versions and applying it to the difference in range. Further, he was 
only looking at commuting over a particular route for a year, or some 
such, leading to his conclusion that each charge  on that route over one 
year would account for $500 of that price difference.


It was a rather arbitrary argument since the Model S will last much 
longer than one year and the Model S could be used for many other trips 
where the higher range battery might have more value.


But his point was that for the regular trip in question, paying for the 
longer range Model S was not cost effective, in his opinion. Someone 
else may have a different opinion, especially if they do more than that 
one regular trip.


Still, the difference in price as he quoted it is enough to buy a LEAF, 
so I'm sure Tesla buyers who are stretching to afford the Model S have 
to consider if they really need the longer range battery. Or for that 
matter, if they should buy a LEAF and just take the train for that one 
particular commute, as someone else suggested.


There is actually no per charge fee for Supercharger use for the Model 
S. Think of it as free charging for the life of the vehicle.


Supercharger access is included as a standard feature with the higher 
range Model S. However, IIRC There is a one-time fee of several thousand 
bucks if you buy the lower range Model S and choose the Supercharger 
access option. Again, there is no actual payment needed per charge at 
the Supercharger itself.


Cheers,
 -Jamie



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Re: [EVDL] What serious EVs are available, at what price & how do they compare?

2014-07-07 Thread Jamie K via EV

On 7/7/14 6:47 PM, Ben Apollonio via EV wrote:

I know it's not a 'true' EV, but definitely don't forget the noble
Chevy Volt. At just $34k before tax credit, it provides decent EV
range (unlike the other PIH), decent performance, a coddled battery
that will last forever, actual back seat and trunk space (unlike the
puny Leaf), and versatility that only the Tesla can rival (at 3x the
price). I think its the perfect car for someone who wants to go EV,
needs more than the 70 miles the automakers have settled on (or lives
in harsh climates), and can't/won't throw down a fortune for a
Tesla.

The Volt is worth considering for anyone who needs one car that can do
some electric and some gas. It's not the best at either, but it does it
all in one car.

To be accurate though, I don't think the Volt has any significant back
seat or trunk advantage over the LEAF. I'd expect the Volt to have less
space since it's classified as a compact whereas the LEAF is classified
as a mid-sized vehicle. The LEAF can seat 5 people, vs. 4 in the Volt.

From one comparison:
(http://www.autotrader.com/research/article/car-reviews/224415/2014-nissan-leaf-vs-2014-chevrolet-volt-which-is-better.jsp)
"We're also not sold on the Volt's cargo capacity: Seats up or down, it
only has about half the cargo volume of the Leaf."

For less money the LEAF also gives you at least double the EV range,
double the 240 volt level two charging speed, and a 440 volt fast charge
port that's not available on the Volt. Plus a simpler mechanical design
with no complex gas engine or exhaust system to repair, ever. On the
flip side, the Volt can burn gas for longer range needs. While it's not
as efficient as a Prius for long trips, if you want it all in one car
the Volt can do it.

So it just depends on what your driving needs are. There's no ultimate
winner, just different options to fit different needs.

One of each might be a nice combination for two car families with a mix
of driving needs.

Cheers,
-Jamie

That said, if you have the money, the Tesla is definitely the
superior car for 99% of your driving needs.

-Ben

On Jul 7, 2014, at 5:41 AM, brucedp5 via EV
wrote:

After seeing many misinformed newswires on that topic, that did not
state where EVs are available and at what price so the public can
compare, I thought I would put together this post.

I encourage comments and evdl members to post similarly of what EVs
are available and their prices in their location.

I searched for new non-compliance-car EVs in the SF Bay area. I
think it would be interesting to compare with other regions. My
local Mitsubishi dealership web pages did not list the iMiev so, I
left the iMiev out. Here is what I found:

$32k 2015 Nissan Leaf S Trim r:75mi-EPA, Level-3 charging:CHAdeMO
http://www.stevenscreeknissan.com/new-inventory/index.htm?year=2015&&&sortBy=internetPrice+asc&model=LEAF&;

Stevens Creek Nissan

http://www.nissansunnyvale.com/new-inventory/index.htm?model=LEAFyear=2015&;

Nissan Sunnyvale

$43k 2014 BMW i3 (EV-only) r:81mi-EPA, Level-3 charging:Combo css
http://www.stevenscreekbmw.com/new-inventory/index.htm?model=i3&sortBy=internetPrice%20asc&;

Stevens Creek BMW

http://westmont.laurelbmw.com/Westmont/For-Sale/New/?ModelId=2432&Model=i3

BMW of Fremont

http://www.peterpanbmw.com/inventory.aspx?_new=true&_model=i3&_sort=priceasc

Peter Pan BMW

http://www.eastbaybmw.com/inventory.aspx?_new=true&_makef=BMW&_model=i3

East Bay BMW

$70k Tesla Model S 60kWh r:208mi-EPA, Level-3
charging:Supercharger http://www.teslamotors.com/models/design

All these USD prices are before any rebates and will vary
(dealerships mark up the price wildly to get as much as they can).
These prices were the lowest ones I found on the above dealership
websites.

In the following 3 different EVs, they each have level-3 quick
charging and multiple driving modes. These Automakers seem to have
made much more of an EV commitment than all the others. I am using
a price to mileage ratio to roughly compare the EVs'
bang-for-the-buck (the lower the number, the better the deal):

Leaf: ~427 (=32000/75)

i3: ~511 (=43000/81)

Tesla-S: ~337 (=7/208)

The Tesla-S has the best overall deal, and the Leaf is the better
lower-purchase-cost deal.

But besides not being a better cost/range deal, there is another
problem with the i3. There is nil Combo css level-3 quick charging
in the Americas. Therefore the i3 only has a 6kW level-2 charging
capability in the Americas. For some, level-2 is all they need but
not having Level-3 quick charging that is a game-killer for many
buyers. They may hardly use it, but it it there if they want to use
it, and it adds to the EV's resale value.

I suppose we could do a similar comparison with the compliance-car
EVs, but why?

Besides being hard to get, harder to get support, they do not have
level-3 charging. Also those Automakers could pull a Toyota and
abandon their compliance-car EVs to go fcv just

Re: [EVDL] What serious EVs are available, at what price & how do they compare?

2014-07-07 Thread Jamie K via EV



Good points, and no arguments here on using EPA range for the sake of 
camparison even though YMMV.


However the actual consumer cost of each EV is post tax incentive, 
which, to make an accurate comparison, cannot be ignored. Purchase cost 
per mile range is a useful metric for comparison when actual post 
incentive pricing is taken into account.


Subtract just the USA Federal tax incentive from the price of each and 
the LEAF beats the Tesla in the formula below. Subtract Fed, state and 
local tax incentives, depending on location, and the LEAF lead widens.


This is simply because the tax incentives are a bigger percentage of the 
purchase price for the LEAF than the Tesla.


It will be interesting to see how the expected longer range LEAF and 
lower priced Tesla line up in a few years.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 7/7/14 10:53 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

With a little help from my friends, I am corrected: according to
http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/charging-range/range/
"The Nissan LEAF® can get you 84 miles on a single charge. [*] Speed,
topography, load, and accessory use can significantly affect the estimated
range."

So, recalculating the list using 84 miles @ $3200 for the Leaf EV:

Leaf: ~381 (=32000/84)

i3: ~511 (=43000/81)

Tesla-S: ~337 (=7/208)

The Tesla Model-S is still the overall better deal using my funny-numbers
above, and the Leaf is still the better lower-purchase-cost deal.

I hope everyone realizes that range figures are a moving target (everyone's
range will vary). The  mynissanleaf.com  forum had a chart that showed some
speed to range ratios that some might find interesting:
http://www.smidgeindustriesltd.com/leafrangewithtesla.gif

But I stuck with using the EPA numbers for each EV, not because I believe
the EPA range is fact, but to compare apples with apples.


{brucedp.150m.com}




On Mon, Jul 7, 2014, at 09:21 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote:

Note that the LEAF is currently rated at 84 mile EPA range, not 75.
Taking that into account, and if you look at the actual price people are
likely to pay post tax incentives, the LEAF currently has the lowest
cost per range mile of those three EVs.

-



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Re: [EVDL] What serious EVs are available, at what price & how do they compare?

2014-07-07 Thread Jamie K via EV

Note that the LEAF is currently rated at 84 mile EPA range, not 75. 
Taking that into account, and if you look at the actual price people are 
likely to pay post tax incentives, the LEAF currently has the lowest 
cost per range mile of those three EVs.

Cheers,
 -Jamie

> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 5:41 AM, brucedp5 via EV  
wrote:

>

>> Leaf: ~427 (=32000/75)
>>
>> i3: ~511 (=43000/81)
>>
>> Tesla-S: ~337 (=7/208)
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Re: [EVDL] Miles Remaining

2014-05-09 Thread Jamie K via EV



On 5/9/14 10:36 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Well, it doesn't have to be called a kwh meter.  I could be called a
energy-remaining or, to use the term incorrectly, a power-remaining meter.


Perhaps that's what the optional percentage readout is meant to address 
on the 2013/2014 LEAF. I find it to be very useful, along with the 
instant and average miles per kWh indicators.


Cheers,
 -Jamie



Peri

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: 09 May, 2014 9:19 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Miles Remaining

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

If only, in their focus groups, they had asked the question: would you
rather have an accurate remaining-kwh meter or an fairly inaccurate
remaining-miles meter?


But most of the people in the focus group would probably have said, "A
killerwhat? That sounds dangerous!"

I suspect that only 1% of average drivers could tell you what a
kilowatthour is. The Leaf focus group probably had people 10 times more
likely to be interested in EVs, so they were better; 10% of them knew
what a Kilowatthour is. So they still got out-voted.



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Re: [EVDL] Miles Remaining

2014-05-08 Thread Jamie K via EV



The LEAF has always had an empty-full gauge, consisting of stacked bars 
on the right side of the screen in front of the driver.


From 2013 forward, due to requests from drivers, there's also a numeric 
battery percentage option that can be displayed in the middle of the 
driver's screen.


You can also choose to show miles per kWh either on the middle screen or 
on the driver's screen.


LEAF owners refer to "miles remaining" as the Guess-o-meter, or GOM. 
AFAIK, the algorithm was smoothed out in 2013/14 models so the swings 
are less wild, but any such algorithm doesn't know where you're going to 
go next, what traffic will be like or the weather conditions. So if you 
drive up a mountain it will guess increasingly low, and when you come 
back down it will guess increasingly high.


The GOM is a more useful feature when driving on terrain with fewer 
changes and at more consistent speeds.


I haven't needed the built-in nav features, but I suppose if the GOM 
tied into the suggested route, and if it included data for elevation 
changes, traffic patterns and weather, it could be made to be more 
accurate even on routes that had a lot of variability.


I prefer to show battery percentage on the driver's screen because it's 
easier to grok than a stack of bars, along with miles/kWh on the middle 
screen so i can judge how efficiently I'm driving and how far that 
percentage will take me. That combination lets me use my own internal 
GOM based on knowing where I'm going and my experience with the route 
and the LEAF.


The LEAF's GOM still shows on both screens. It can be ignored when 
driving conditions are highly variable, or given more credence when 
driving conditions are more consistent.


For a newbie, it just takes a few times on any route to build 
understanding and confidence in the car. Driving then becomes routine 
enjoyment of the benefits of the smooth, quiet power of electric travel.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 5/8/14 8:43 AM, Bill Dennis via EV wrote:

Lee wrote:

But suppose you want to know how far you can go at a given speed (i.e. a

given load).

That is a much more complex calculation


I rented a Leaf recently, and I really don't like the "miles remaining"
thing.  It varies too much.  If you're going uphill, it gives a smaller
number of miles remaining.  Then when you get back on level ground, miles go
back up.  Going downhill it changes again.  Talk about range anxiety.  I'd
much rather have just as Empty-Full gauge as a regular car does.  Then I can
see just how fast the gauge is going down and estimate for myself.  I think
most people who have driving ICE cars all their lives have the same
instinct.  The "miles remaining" is only a rough estimate anyway, just like
the rough estimate I'd make by looking at the Empty-Full gauge.

I'd be interested to hear other people's take on it.

Bill

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