Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
Thank you, Peri, for that interesting insight. I'm sure Mr Musk is thinking along these lines already. MW On 14 Sep 2014, at 16:11, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Well, Martin, I see it a little differently - and no offense :) I don't know how aware the typical buyer of an SUV or truck is about general cost of petroleum and its effects on terrorist groups and corruption, etc. Surely some are, some aren't. I think the real issue, however, is the choice of vehicles. The auto manufactures simply don't produce a good alternative (yet). So, if you feel you need or want a large vehicle, you can choose the brand, looks, and features but not so much the fuel economy. The NHTSA (national highway transpo safety admin) rules make it uneconomical for foreign manufactures to sell vehicles in the US so, with the exception of a few manufactures (i.e. Honda, Toyota) that have decided to produce specifically for the US market (and largely produce *in* the US), the rest of the imports mostly fall into high premium vehicles. These rules are partly for safety but, I think, have quirks added to on behalf of industry lobbying to protect themselves. The net result is there isn't any significant foreign competition and the US auto makers can continue to build status quo - which is more profitable for them in the short run. I think with the relatively recent CAFE (fuel economy) rules adopted by the EPA we will see a gradual change. I'm hoping that change will accelerate if Tesla and others can produce a 200+ mile range SUV or light truck at a cost (including long term fuel costs) comparable to ICE versions. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com; EVDL Post Message ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 14-Sep-14 4:10:01 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (Um, Bruce, I don't want to appear rude, here, but singling out one section of the population on a racial basis for criticism - certainly in this context - is at best rather non-PC and at worst, a bit, well, ... offensive...? I'm trying to be delicate, here! I think I know you well enough to say I am sure you do not mean to be such but I suspect anyone from the Latin American community would be a bit surprised at the reference. Sorry if this is upsetting for you and moving swiftly on...) The overriding impression that I get as a non-US resident (and one who has not yet visited the USA) is that in very general terms, the average US citizen has virtually no idea of how dire the fuel economy of their vehicle is compared to the rest of the world, particularly those parts of the world where diesel and petrol is considerably more expensive than the USA, and not do they care. (I expect some US-based EVDL readers will find this a bit offensive too. Again... sorry!) Furthermore s/he has no knowledge nor interest in how significant this fact is on the workings of the rest of the world especially how much oil revenue is responsible for funding of various terrorist groups and the misery they cause, let alone furthering the (generally) evil machinations of Big Oil. I may be wrong. I'm not a parent but think if I were I would want to do what I could, when driving, to protect my children from the idiots and drunkards out there - I'm sure this is a problem the world over. To that end I would almost certainly consider a 'bigger' vehicle which does, of course, also make it more practical to haul children as well as all the necessary clobber about the place. The downside is a/ the extra cost of vehicle + fuel and b/ the associated guilt (see paragraph 2). The plus side is that if car designers really wanted to, they could bring the best of all worlds together and design a car/SUV that is not only fuel efficient but also safe and roomy (in the UK such vehicles are called 'people carriers') but will anyone in the US actually buy them? As things stand, the auto-makers can sell the same old same old and that's pretty much all they care about... Then, along came Tesla... MW ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
On Sep 16, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I predict the truck owner will notice the PIH. The ICE will be less potent to compensate for the extra cost of the PI part. There's certainly precedence for a rapid fleet turnover - all were gasoline, then there was a quick transition to diesel. ZEV next? Should be easy to sling an AC motor under a truck leaving the ICE in place. As discussed here it is very doable. There are other nice things about a truck - lots of room for batteries compared to a car. Cost a lot for batteries now, but that will change. On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 1:18 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 15 Sep 2014 at 9:34, brucedp5 via EV wrote: the full-size (puffy) truck or suv vehicle its self is what the buyer wants, and that the pih model would be close to the same size and passenger seating ... Now here is where my cynical side rebuts my optimistic side. :-\ I wonder if this wouldn't just end up much like the flexible fuel vehicles sold for the last several years. I think the automakers get some kind of CAFE credits for those (I don't know the details and it's OT anyway), but the number that ever get fed anything but gasoline is infinitesimal. Now suppose that with subsidies the big automakers could sell PIH trucks and SUVs cheaper than pure ICE trucks and SUVs. Of course they would; the dealers would clamor for it. BUT, I'll bet they wouldn't sell them as PIHs. The sales people would barely mention it, except to maybe tell the buyer it's cheaper because you could plug it in if you wanted to. Many or most of these bargain-priced PIHs would go to people who had no interest in using the EV mode. Chances are good that even though they'd save money by plugging in, many of them wouldn't bother - especially if they had to have an EVSE installed in their garages (if they even had garages). I can see many of these PIHs running most or all of the time on gasoline, just like the flexible fuel vehicles do today. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140916/eb11e6e4/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
Data point: If Subaru put a Volt-ish drivetrain in the Outback, there would be one in my driveway. Brett (waiting) On Sep 15, 2014 7:48 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Sep 14, 2014, at 11:29 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: As I see it, we really have only two ways to go. Either we look for ways to make EVs that match those massive ICEVs in utility, or we concentrate on making great EVs that do other things really, really well. Actually, there's a third way, though I realize that it's one that's not so popular with the readership here. Plug-in hybrids. If a puffy SUV or truck were outfitted with something analogous to the Volt's drivetrain but appropriately up-sized, even with the same size battery pack, at worst it'd still have a ~20 mile all-electric range. As a marketing bonus, that electric motor will have lots of low-end torque, and that metric is the one the marketing departments love to use for these vehicles. For many, that would make it a pure BEV for 80% of trips. Even those putting an hundred miles a day on the vehicle would still be driving 20% of their miles electrically...and that's the equivalent of turning one out of five puffy vehicles purely electric. I think most of us here realize what it would mean for one out of five puffy vehicles to be pure electric, and most would jump for joy at the possibility. So why not a vehicle that's not pure electric but 20% electric? And _especially_ why not when, again, on average, it'll really be 50% - 80%+ electric? I think it's pretty clear that the only real technological challenge facing electric vehicles is the battery. Motors aren't a problem; today's electric motors absolutely smoke their fossil fuel counterparts. And the way to improve batteries is to sell more of them. And the way to sell more of them is to put them in more cars, even if those cars also have a fossil fuel tank. A transition from an ICE-only vehicle to a 20-mile PHEV to a 40-mile PHEV to an 80-mile PHEV to a 150-mile PHEV to a 300-mile BEV is much easier for the industry to manage and practically a natural from a consumer and marketing perspective. That 20-mile PHEV is a really big value-add for the consumer: save big on fuel and get a performance upgrade. What's not to love? The next generation has double the range, enough for most people to only hit the gas pumps every few months. (As a practical matter, this would be more than enough to solve all our vehicular fossil fuel problems.) The 80-mile generation after that is effectively a BEV with an emergency reserve tank of a few hundred miles. The 150-mile PHEV really is a pure BEV save you can use it to tow the boat to the lake on the other side of the state rather than having to rent something for the trip. And the 300-mile BEV, assuming it can get to 80% charge in 15 - 20 minutes and an adequate charging network, is the final na il in the ICE coffin. ...but, of course, we're still at the front end of that transition, with 20- to 40-mile PHEVs being the limit of practicality. But that's still an absolutely amazingly wonderful improvement over the ICE, and worthy of celebration and definitely something to encourage! Or, TL/DR: Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the fantastic. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140915/2351c6e1/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140916/54314d5f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
I predict the truck owner will notice the PIH. The ICE will be less potent to compensate for the extra cost of the PI part. Should be easy to sling an AC motor under a truck leaving the ICE in place. As discussed here it is very doable. There are other nice things about a truck - lots of room for batteries compared to a car. Cost a lot for batteries now, but that will change. On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 1:18 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 15 Sep 2014 at 9:34, brucedp5 via EV wrote: the full-size (puffy) truck or suv vehicle its self is what the buyer wants, and that the pih model would be close to the same size and passenger seating ... Now here is where my cynical side rebuts my optimistic side. :-\ I wonder if this wouldn't just end up much like the flexible fuel vehicles sold for the last several years. I think the automakers get some kind of CAFE credits for those (I don't know the details and it's OT anyway), but the number that ever get fed anything but gasoline is infinitesimal. Now suppose that with subsidies the big automakers could sell PIH trucks and SUVs cheaper than pure ICE trucks and SUVs. Of course they would; the dealers would clamor for it. BUT, I'll bet they wouldn't sell them as PIHs. The sales people would barely mention it, except to maybe tell the buyer it's cheaper because you could plug it in if you wanted to. Many or most of these bargain-priced PIHs would go to people who had no interest in using the EV mode. Chances are good that even though they'd save money by plugging in, many of them wouldn't bother - especially if they had to have an EVSE installed in their garages (if they even had garages). I can see many of these PIHs running most or all of the time on gasoline, just like the flexible fuel vehicles do today. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140916/eb11e6e4/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
On 14 Sep 2014 at 12:10, Martin WINLOW via EV wrote: singling out one section of the population on a racial basis for criticism - certainly in this context - is at best rather non-PC and at worst, a bit, well, ... offensive...? Sorry to say, I have to agree that some folks might take offense at the wording in the post. No matter how valid and good the other ideas expressed are, this can end up being used as a argument against them. Regrettably, there still seems to be a LOT of folks looking for arguments against EVs. I don't speak for Bruce, but reading between the lines, I took the piece more as considering how to market EVs to a segment that (for better or worse) demographers break out. That said, if it's a truly useful demographic split, I think it'd be mostly applicable to the US Southwest. I can tell you that here in the East- Midwest, the penchant for massive vehicles seems to cut across many demographic groups. Before I go any farther with this, a note about big people and big vehicles. At one time I tended to dismiss this issue. That was partly because back in 1972 I knew a truly king-size gentleman, a good 6' 8 or more tall with the weight to match. He very happily owned and drove a Honda 600! It was pretty entertaining to watch him fold himself into that car. He LOVED its size, manuverability, and efficiency. Over the years, though, I've come to understand that aging magnifies the discomfort of that kind of contortion. I've also gotten to know some folks who have significant physical challenges and have a LOT of trouble getting into and out of most small (or even large) sedans. Although I personally don't need or want a large vehicle, this has changed my views about what some folks really need. And like it or not, here in the US with our mostly hopeless public transit systems, there are very few places where you can have a productive life without (at least access to) a personal vehicle. If you don't have vehicles these folks can use, you are effectively grounding them. I also acknowledge that there are lots of other reasons that a person might need (or might think he needs, which is effectively the same) a large vehicle. Some folks have already mentioned some of these, and you can find more of them in archived discussions here and elsewhere. Beyond that, the market for big vehicles has been hugely and deliberately amplified by the automakers and their marketing because (1) selling trucks and truckish vehicles lets them bypass CAFE regulations, and (2) trucks and their relatives are WAY more profitable for them than cars. I could spend too much time expanding on how that all happened, but the salient point is that THIS IS WHERE WE ARE. Billions of dollars in auto industry advertising have stuffed us into this corner. We as EV advocates just don't have the bucks to get out of it. We have to make the best of it. As I see it, we really have only two ways to go. Either we look for ways to make EVs that match those massive ICEVs in utility, or we concentrate on making great EVs that do other things really, really well. The first of these is pretty tough. When you make a vehicle heavier and larger, you need more torque to accelerate it at a rate that drivers will accept. You need more power to keep it going at a speed they like against wind and rolling resistance. You need more energy to keep it going for as many miles as those drivers want to go. In an ICEV, you drop in a bigger ICE and a bigger fuel tank. These don't really increase the vehicle manufacturing cost much. But they increase the vehicle's appeal to certain buyers even more, so the manufacturers make more profit on each one sold. That's why vehicles keep getting bigger and bigger. But in a EV - at least for a now - a gruntier motor and heftier controller push up the manufacturing cost more than a larger engine. Worse, while increasing the ICEV's fuel tank size from 20 to 30 gallons costs just a few bucks, increasing an EV's battery from 24kWh to 36kWh costs THOUSANDS. This means that the bigger the vehicle gets, the harder it is to make a price-competitive EV. Twenty years ago, the cost of the most modest EV parts, and the cost of advanced batteries, were so high that making a small car EV cost-compeitive with a small ICEV was darn near impossible. However, we found that when we shifted down several notches in vehicle size, buyers were a lot more willing to pay for the difference between an ICEV and an EV. I'm talking about E-bikes, so far EVs' biggest success story worldwide, and this is where we get to my second what to do alternative above - concentrating on making really, really good EVs that do non-large-vehicle things well. The other big thing that E-bikes had (and have) going for them is that rather than being compared with mopeds and scooters, they were (and are) often compared with non-powered bikes. Instead of seeing them as a
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
As the driver of a large puffy vehicle and a person living in the USA I can tell you that we own and operate these vehicles because they represent the best utility value for many. Partly because they are not paying for the added environmental damage... but pushing it off on the rest of us. The tragedy of the commons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons How many ecologically minded small car drivers does there have to be to make up for the excesses of the large ones? Bob ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
We also own a small sedan that consistently gets over 42 mpg. Life is often about balance. I surely don't feel like I'm pushing anything off on you.nbsp; If one takes your logic to its ultimate conclusion, then no one should be driving at ALL. Even an EV derives it's power from fossil sources in one way or another. Perhaps you are right. Sent from my phone. From: Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list [via Electric Vehicle Discussion List] Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 7:16 A M To: CoreyH Subject: Re: Electrifying Large Vehiclesgt; converting buyers to a higher mpge design gt; As the driver of a large puffy vehicle and a person living gt; nbsp;in the USA I can tell you that we own and operate these vehicles gt; because they represent the best utility value for many. Partly because they are not paying for the added environmental damage... but pushing it off on the rest of us. The tragedy of the commons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons How many ecologically minded small car drivers does there have to be to make up for the excesses of the large ones? Bob ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA ) If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Electrifying-Large-Vehicles-converting-buyers-to-a-higher-mpge-design-tp4671523p4671559.html To unsubscribe from Electrifying Large Vehiclesgt; converting buyers to a higher mpge design, click here . NAML -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Electrifying-Large-Vehicles-converting-buyers-to-a-higher-mpge-design-tp4671523p4671560.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
To answer your question - several times more. Example: N drivers who switch from an avg 25 MPG car to a 50 MPG Prius each driving 1000 miles per month, total savings: N x 20 gal One driver with a behemoth using 8 MPG also doing 1000 miles/mo, so using 125 gal/mo He is using 85 gal more than when driving a 25 MPG car To balance, 4.25 drivers of Prius converts are needed to keep fuel use the same compared to veryong taking a 25 MPG car. Note that the 50 MPG of the Prius is about average fuel economy in most (non-USA) countries. I have said before (esp if we take environmental damage into account) the price of fuel in USA should be double what it now is. Almost all other countries appear to be doing well with that price level and they avoid some of the excesses (and yes - I live in USA so I would be impacted by rising fuel prices. Also I have lived abroad and am familiar with European fuel prices and vehicle's fuel consumption and transportation trade-offs. Using a car is simply too cheap in USA, that is why you hardly find any good public transportation or non-motorized traffic). It is more a political issues that this does not happen and since politics are a no-no on this list AND this topic is no longer discussing EVs other than that those are the efficient vehicles we all *want*, I suggest to close the thread here. Any responses in private, please. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga via EV Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 6:16 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design As the driver of a large puffy vehicle and a person living in the USA I can tell you that we own and operate these vehicles because they represent the best utility value for many. Partly because they are not paying for the added environmental damage... but pushing it off on the rest of us. The tragedy of the commons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons How many ecologically minded small car drivers does there have to be to make up for the excesses of the large ones? Bob ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
On Sep 14, 2014, at 11:29 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: As I see it, we really have only two ways to go. Either we look for ways to make EVs that match those massive ICEVs in utility, or we concentrate on making great EVs that do other things really, really well. Actually, there's a third way, though I realize that it's one that's not so popular with the readership here. Plug-in hybrids. If a puffy SUV or truck were outfitted with something analogous to the Volt's drivetrain but appropriately up-sized, even with the same size battery pack, at worst it'd still have a ~20 mile all-electric range. As a marketing bonus, that electric motor will have lots of low-end torque, and that metric is the one the marketing departments love to use for these vehicles. For many, that would make it a pure BEV for 80% of trips. Even those putting an hundred miles a day on the vehicle would still be driving 20% of their miles electrically...and that's the equivalent of turning one out of five puffy vehicles purely electric. I think most of us here realize what it would mean for one out of five puffy vehicles to be pure electric, and most would jump for joy at the possibility. So why not a vehicle that's not pure electric but 20% electric? And _especially_ why not when, again, on average, it'll really be 50% - 80%+ electric? I think it's pretty clear that the only real technological challenge facing electric vehicles is the battery. Motors aren't a problem; today's electric motors absolutely smoke their fossil fuel counterparts. And the way to improve batteries is to sell more of them. And the way to sell more of them is to put them in more cars, even if those cars also have a fossil fuel tank. A transition from an ICE-only vehicle to a 20-mile PHEV to a 40-mile PHEV to an 80-mile PHEV to a 150-mile PHEV to a 300-mile BEV is much easier for the industry to manage and practically a natural from a consumer and marketing perspective. That 20-mile PHEV is a really big value-add for the consumer: save big on fuel and get a performance upgrade. What's not to love? The next generation has double the range, enough for most people to only hit the gas pumps every few months. (As a practical matter, this would be more than enough to solve all our vehicular fossil fuel problems.) The 80-mile generation after that is effectively a BEV with an emergency reserve tank of a few hundred miles. The 150-mile PHEV really is a pure BEV save you can use it to tow the boat to the lake on the other side of the state rather than having to rent something for the trip. And the 300-mile BEV, assuming it can get to 80% charge in 15 - 20 minutes and an adequate charging network, is the final na il in the ICE coffin. ...but, of course, we're still at the front end of that transition, with 20- to 40-mile PHEVs being the limit of practicality. But that's still an absolutely amazingly wonderful improvement over the ICE, and worthy of celebration and definitely something to encourage! Or, TL/DR: Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the fantastic. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140915/2351c6e1/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
On 15 Sep 2014 at 9:16, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Partly because they are not paying for the added environmental damage... but pushing it off on the rest of us. I agree with this point. (TL;DR : skip to the last 4 paragraphs.) In Europe, things that increase public costs are more often (though not always) taxed more. (Duh.) I remember talking in the late 1990s to a pottery maker in Italy who groused that she had to pay more tax, IIRC because of the emissions from her kiln. That's just not much done here in the States. These social costs are usually borne by all taxpayers, including those who don't cause them. To be clear here, I'm not saying that people who truly need large vehicles should be punished for buying or having them. Read what I wrote in my previous post on this subject. There are lots of valid reasons. However, as a case study, I submit South Korea. Until the late 1990s, they taxed small vehicles lightly, and large vehicles and those with large displacement ICEs very heavily. The assumption was that if you could afford a big car, you could afford to pay more tax. Not surprisingly, the most popular car in Korea during the 1990s was the tiny, economical Daewoo Tico. US automakers griped to our government that they were having trouble selling their vehicles in South Korea. The US Trade Representative negotiated a deal with Korea (in reality negotiated with means dictated to in these cases). Korea agreed to reduce their large vehicle taxes. You can see the document here : http://www.atesk.org/pages/vehicletax.html An interesting thing happened. Between 1999 and 2000, the number of SUVs registered in Korea increased by 80%. In 2000, small vehicles were still the majority, though they were quickly being overwhelmed. When I was there this summer, the vehicle mix looked a lot like the US's, except with fewer pickup trucks. Back in 2000, only one Korean I personally knew and rode with drove an SUV. Today almost ALL my Korean friends drive them. That's a big change. Here's an interesting sidebar. The USTR's knuckle-cracking was supposed to open Korea's markets to US-made vehicles. But it didn't. Even today, those SUVs clogging Korean roads still don't say Ford and Jeep on them. They're mostly Hyundais and Kias. As of the last few years, a few are branded Chevrolet, but they're not US-made - they're built in Korea by GM Daewoo. So the USTR's meddling in Korean laws didn't do anything significant to achieve its ostensible goal to improve US-made vehicle sales. It did, however, make parking much more difficult, increase the diesel soot in the air, and raise Korea's energy use and CO2 emissions. The point is that financial incentives for buying vehicles that are better for your country and the world WORK, as they did in Korea before 1998. They don't exist in a vacuum; you have to coordinate them with other laws and incentives. You have to make them strong enough. But they can and do WORK. As of 2015, Korea's Ministry of Transport is offering a subsidy of 15 million won (pretty close to $15k) for Koreans who buy an EV, and some cities and provinces also have incentives running 3-8 million (around $3- 8k). For 2015 their choices will be a Kia Soul or a Chevy (Daewoo) Spark. We will see what happens. But you can bet that if these incentives last, a LOT more automakers there will be introducing EVs. I know that libertarians abhor subsidies and incentives, and I understand why. I understand that often there are unintended consequences. I understand that often the benefit sometimes isn't evenly or fairly distributed among the population. But when it comes to determining how a nation's or state's drivers buy vehicles, incentives WORK. Which (for patient folks still with me) brings us to in interesting notion. As I said before, the problem with commercializing large EVs is how fast the battery cost (and to a lesser degree, drivetrain cost) increases as the size of the vehicle goes up. What if EV incentives were tied to that specific EV's amount of potential environmental improvement? That is, what if replacing a 6000lb ICE pickup or SUV with an EV pickup or SUV got you a bigger subsidy than replacing a 3000lb sedan with a 3000lb EV? A lot of folks who oppose large vehicles on principle would be upset that it put yet more big vehicles on the road, and didn't do as much to reduce energy use and CO2 emissions as replacing those pickups and SUVs with small EVs. But in a nation that's clearly already addicted to large vehicles, where a lot of folks will NEVER buy a small car no matter how cheap it is, such a policy might - might - actually do more to reduce energy use and CO2 emissions. I'm not an expert, and I don't have any research that say that this will for sure work. But maybe it's something to think about, and perhaps research further. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = =
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
I track our cars' power usage and our grid-intertie solar power generation, and we generate, on an annual average, seventeen times as much as our two cars use. So we're only using hydrocarbons in so far as everything's fungible, and thirty-four other cars are using our solar power. -Bill On Sep 15, 2014, at 10:59, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: ...then no one should be driving at ALL. Even an EV derives it's power from fossil sources in one way or another. Whoaa, that is simply not true (though the right wing media would like us to believe it). Studies have shown that at least HALF of all people who purchase an EV either have solar or buy their electricity from 100% clean renewable providers such as solar or wind. And most of those that don't have that option say they WOULD if their local power company offered it. It is no coincidence that most of those people who buy EV's are also the motivated people who buy 100% clean renewable energy if they can. My EV is 100% free of fossil fuel (we have total solar at our house). We have reduced our fossil fuel energy consumption from over 3000 gallons equivalent per year down to 300. That is a 10-to-1 reduction. That last 300 gallons per year is for the Prius that we keep for trips beyond routine EV range. See a plot of how we went from 3000 gal to 300 in just the last few years (about 50% down this page:) http://aprs.org/AFM-environment.html And the amazing thing is that switching to solar and EV's is CHEAPER than just continuing to burn coal and oil to oblivion. This weekend, I just added another 3 kW array to my house for a total of 14 kW (and another 3 kW in the driveway awaiting non-honey-do time). Cost of this last 3kW (DIY) is on the order of 90 cents a watt or about $2700 including the inverter. And will generate about $500 a year in return. That is a 26% return on investment per year for the rest of my life Compare 26% ROI to savings at 1% or the stock market at 6%. And this 26% ROI will actually go UP every time the cost of energy goes up It makes no sense not to invest in solar if you have sun! PS, most people will not need an array this big. My house is 90+ years old, and consumes probably twice what an average modern house consumes, so most people would not need more than about a 10kw array. Not bragging, just showing that it can be done, and is cheaper in the long run than doing nothing. The things that are certain in live are Death, Taxes and Utilities. The one thing you can't solve is death, but you can sure reduce your taxes by 30% and eliminate utilities for the rest of your life by going solar! Bob, Wb4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
Actually, in the big picture it is true - EVs consume fossil fuels. Even if all the power to operate them comes from solar, please consider: - energy to design and manufacture the vehicle, - energy and materials to provide charging infrastruture (i.e. your solar panels) - energy and materials for roads - energy wasted indirectly as a result of traffic congestion. All said, EVs are fantastic but there's no question that the best way to use less energy, including fossil fuels, is to *not* drive! Peri -- Original Message -- From: Bill Woodcock via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 15-Sep-14 8:27:15 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free) I track our cars' power usage and our grid-intertie solar power generation, and we generate, on an annual average, seventeen times as much as our two cars use. So we're only using hydrocarbons in so far as everything's fungible, and thirty-four other cars are using our solar power. -Bill On Sep 15, 2014, at 10:59, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: ...then no one should be driving at ALL. Even an EV derives it's power from fossil sources in one way or another. Whoaa, that is simply not true (though the right wing media would like us to believe it). Studies have shown that at least HALF of all people who purchase an EV either have solar or buy their electricity from 100% clean renewable providers such as solar or wind. And most of those that don't have that option say they WOULD if their local power company offered it. It is no coincidence that most of those people who buy EV's are also the motivated people who buy 100% clean renewable energy if they can. My EV is 100% free of fossil fuel (we have total solar at our house). We have reduced our fossil fuel energy consumption from over 3000 gallons equivalent per year down to 300. That is a 10-to-1 reduction. That last 300 gallons per year is for the Prius that we keep for trips beyond routine EV range. See a plot of how we went from 3000 gal to 300 in just the last few years (about 50% down this page:) http://aprs.org/AFM-environment.html And the amazing thing is that switching to solar and EV's is CHEAPER than just continuing to burn coal and oil to oblivion. This weekend, I just added another 3 kW array to my house for a total of 14 kW (and another 3 kW in the driveway awaiting non-honey-do time). Cost of this last 3kW (DIY) is on the order of 90 cents a watt or about $2700 including the inverter. And will generate about $500 a year in return. That is a 26% return on investment per year for the rest of my life Compare 26% ROI to savings at 1% or the stock market at 6%. And this 26% ROI will actually go UP every time the cost of energy goes up It makes no sense not to invest in solar if you have sun! PS, most people will not need an array this big. My house is 90+ years old, and consumes probably twice what an average modern house consumes, so most people would not need more than about a 10kw array. Not bragging, just showing that it can be done, and is cheaper in the long run than doing nothing. The things that are certain in live are Death, Taxes and Utilities. The one thing you can't solve is death, but you can sure reduce your taxes by 30% and eliminate utilities for the rest of your life by going solar! Bob, Wb4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
On Sep 15, 2014, at 8:27 AM, Bill Woodcock via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I track our cars' power usage and our grid-intertie solar power generation, and we generate, on an annual average, seventeen times as much as our two cars use. So we're only using hydrocarbons in so far as everything's fungible, and thirty-four other cars are using our solar power. As another data point...I haven't run the numbers in detail for a while, but my solar roof generates about half as much electricity as I use -- intentionally oversized to power an EV. I don't yet have an EV, but I don't drive all that much...about 5 gallons / week on average (which, granted, works out to about a kilowatt using NIST GGE). And baseload power here comes from nuclear...despite its other problems, it doesn't (directly) consume fossil fuels nor produce atmospheric CO2. Even without the EV, I'm already well ahead of the carbon curve. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140915/9b30e7e2/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
On Sep 15, 2014, at 8:34 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Actually, in the big picture it is true - EVs consume fossil fuels. Even if all the power to operate them comes from solar, please consider: - energy to design and manufacture the vehicle, - energy and materials to provide charging infrastruture (i.e. your solar panels) - energy and materials for roads - energy wasted indirectly as a result of traffic congestion. All said, EVs are fantastic but there's no question that the best way to use less energy, including fossil fuels, is to *not* drive! Well, if we're going to go that route, the #1 thing people do that increases their carbon footprint is to have children. Waving a magic wand and swapping all passenger vehicles with electric equivalents would basically solve today's fossil fuel crisis at both ends -- production and pollution. We'd still use substantial fossil fuels in agribusiness and plastics and the like, but the excess capacity from not having to fuel passenger vehicles would greatly extend the lifetime of existing reserves and dramatically reduce pollution. If the magic wand also made all the electricity for those vehicles come from solar power, the effect would again be greatly magnified, and it would leave us in the perfect position to stop mining hydrocarbon feedstocks and start producing them from atmospheric CO2. At that point, we'd basically be home free. Complaining that EVs still consume fossil fuels is the archetypal example of making the perfect the enemy of the good. EVs use so little fossil fuels compared to ICE vehicles that EVs might as well not use any at all in comparison. ...though, regardless, we still would be much better off with a much, much, much smaller population b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140915/98e57151/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
Studies have shown that at least HALF of all people who purchase an EV either have solar or buy their electricity from 100% clean renewable providers such as solar or wind. As sales move from early adopters to the more general population, ... unless PV sales start outstripping auto sales, these numbers will drop. I don't think so. Solar is already outstripping EV sales. The annual growth in solar currently exceeds the growth in EV's and I cannot imagine any reason why this would not continue. Solar is a WINNER no matter how one looks at it. There is no downside. EV's on the other hand are not for every purpose nor for every application. SO most people can invest in solar, but not everyone can get maximum benefit from an EV.Of course LOTS of folks cannot invest in solar (they have too much shade) but they can sign up for solar from their power company. Other restricitons on solar (do not own the home) similarly affect the purchase of EV's (no place to plug in). SO I think those negative factors cancel. Bob, WB4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
Actually, in the big picture it is true - EVs consume fossil fuels. Yes, I eat arsenic too (true, apple seeds) but it is unfair to generalize and say I eat arsenic. In your arguments below, you incorrectly tie the word energy to fossil fuel Even if all the power to operate them comes from solar, please consider: Yes, TRUE in the past, but NOT TRUE now and in the future: and it is the future that comes from what we do NOW. . 1 - energy to design and manufacture the vehicle, 2 - energy and materials to provide charging infrastruture (i.e. your solar panels) 3 - energy and materials for roads 4 - energy wasted indirectly as a result of traffic congestion. 1) Already Germany is up to 30% soar/wind in just a few years, this is heading for 100%. Not 0% as you imply 2) Solar passed break-even in 1980 or so. The first solar plant to generate all the electricity it took to produce the panels was in Fredrick Maryland back then. British Petroleum bought it in the last decade or so, to rip-off Maryland Tax payers by taking huge business credits and writeoffs, and then bulldozed it. 3) will improve over time. 4) EV's generally waste maybe 5% while stalled in traffic compared to a gas car. And that 5% mostly came from the sun (for the EV drivers that charge from solar, More than half and growing). All said, EVs are fantastic but there's no question that the best way to use less energy, including fossil fuels, is to *not* drive! Yes, ride a bike or a train or walk. Bob -- Original Message -- From: Bill Woodcock via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 15-Sep-14 8:27:15 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free) I track our cars' power usage and our grid-intertie solar power generation, and we generate, on an annual average, seventeen times as much as our two cars use. So we're only using hydrocarbons in so far as everything's fungible, and thirty-four other cars are using our solar power. -Bill On Sep 15, 2014, at 10:59, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: ...then no one should be driving at ALL. Even an EV derives it's power from fossil sources in one way or another. Whoaa, that is simply not true (though the right wing media would like us to believe it). Studies have shown that at least HALF of all people who purchase an EV either have solar or buy their electricity from 100% clean renewable providers such as solar or wind. And most of those that don't have that option say they WOULD if their local power company offered it. It is no coincidence that most of those people who buy EV's are also the motivated people who buy 100% clean renewable energy if they can. My EV is 100% free of fossil fuel (we have total solar at our house). We have reduced our fossil fuel energy consumption from over 3000 gallons equivalent per year down to 300. That is a 10-to-1 reduction. That last 300 gallons per year is for the Prius that we keep for trips beyond routine EV range. See a plot of how we went from 3000 gal to 300 in just the last few years (about 50% down this page:) http://aprs.org/AFM-environment.html And the amazing thing is that switching to solar and EV's is CHEAPER than just continuing to burn coal and oil to oblivion. This weekend, I just added another 3 kW array to my house for a total of 14 kW (and another 3 kW in the driveway awaiting non-honey-do time). Cost of this last 3kW (DIY) is on the order of 90 cents a watt or about $2700 including the inverter. And will generate about $500 a year in return. That is a 26% return on investment per year for the rest of my life Compare 26% ROI to savings at 1% or the stock market at 6%. And this 26% ROI will actually go UP every time the cost of energy goes up It makes no sense not to invest in solar if you have sun! PS, most people will not need an array this big. My house is 90+ years old, and consumes probably twice what an average modern house consumes, so most people would not need more than about a 10kw array. Not bragging, just showing that it can be done, and is cheaper in the long run than doing nothing. The things that are certain in live are Death, Taxes and Utilities. The one thing you can't solve is death, but you can sure reduce your taxes by 30% and eliminate utilities for the rest of your life by going solar! Bob, Wb4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
Ben;s comments (below) are along the lines I was attempting to convey. That
the full-size (puffy) truck or suv vehicle its self is what the buyer wants,
and that the pih model would be close to the same size and passenger seating
(only trimming down the length and width to fit and maneuver into typical
USA parking spaces), but using a pih drive train.
The Volt pih drive train comes to mind, and in one of the links I provided
in my original post Lutz sez the Volt should have been a truck (well maybe
he was promoting VIA as that is now the company he is part of).
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the Cadillac pih (aka elr) drivetrain
more powerful than the Volt's. If so, perhaps a crew-cab Chevy Colorado
with a Cadillac pih drivetrain would be a first pass design approach to a
pih truck that would be of the size and capability interest to truck buyers
that do not have a high cargo or towing demand need from their vehicle (more
of a people and some items transporter, than a heavy-duty construction work
truck).
{brucedp.150m.com}
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_ELR#Specifications
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Colorado
-
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014, at 06:48 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: ...
If a puffy SUV or truck were outfitted with something analogous to the
Volt's drivetrain but appropriately up-sized, even with the same size
battery pack, at worst it'd still have a ~20 mile all-electric range. As
a marketing bonus, that electric motor will have lots of low-end torque,
and that metric is the one the marketing departments love to use for
these vehicles. For many, that would make it a pure BEV for 80% of trips.
Even those putting an hundred miles a day on the vehicle would still be
driving 20% of their miles electrically...and that's the equivalent of
turning one out of five puffy vehicles purely electric.
-
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Electrifying-Large-Vehicles-converting-buyers-to-a-higher-mpge-design-tp4671523p4671573.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
On 15 Sep 2014 at 9:34, brucedp5 via EV wrote: the full-size (puffy) truck or suv vehicle its self is what the buyer wants, and that the pih model would be close to the same size and passenger seating ... Now here is where my cynical side rebuts my optimistic side. :-\ I wonder if this wouldn't just end up much like the flexible fuel vehicles sold for the last several years. I think the automakers get some kind of CAFE credits for those (I don't know the details and it's OT anyway), but the number that ever get fed anything but gasoline is infinitesimal. Now suppose that with subsidies the big automakers could sell PIH trucks and SUVs cheaper than pure ICE trucks and SUVs. Of course they would; the dealers would clamor for it. BUT, I'll bet they wouldn't sell them as PIHs. The sales people would barely mention it, except to maybe tell the buyer it's cheaper because you could plug it in if you wanted to. Many or most of these bargain-priced PIHs would go to people who had no interest in using the EV mode. Chances are good that even though they'd save money by plugging in, many of them wouldn't bother - especially if they had to have an EVSE installed in their garages (if they even had garages). I can see many of these PIHs running most or all of the time on gasoline, just like the flexible fuel vehicles do today. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
(Um, Bruce, I don't want to appear rude, here, but singling out one section of the population on a racial basis for criticism - certainly in this context - is at best rather non-PC and at worst, a bit, well, ... offensive...? I'm trying to be delicate, here! I think I know you well enough to say I am sure you do not mean to be such but I suspect anyone from the Latin American community would be a bit surprised at the reference. Sorry if this is upsetting for you and moving swiftly on...) The overriding impression that I get as a non-US resident (and one who has not yet visited the USA) is that in very general terms, the average US citizen has virtually no idea of how dire the fuel economy of their vehicle is compared to the rest of the world, particularly those parts of the world where diesel and petrol is considerably more expensive than the USA, and not do they care. (I expect some US-based EVDL readers will find this a bit offensive too. Again... sorry!) Furthermore s/he has no knowledge nor interest in how significant this fact is on the workings of the rest of the world especially how much oil revenue is responsible for funding of various terrorist groups and the misery they cause, let alone furthering the (generally) evil machinations of Big Oil. I may be wrong. I'm not a parent but think if I were I would want to do what I could, when driving, to protect my children from the idiots and drunkards out there - I'm sure this is a problem the world over. To that end I would almost certainly consider a 'bigger' vehicle which does, of course, also make it more practical to haul children as well as all the necessary clobber about the place. The downside is a/ the extra cost of vehicle + fuel and b/ the associated guilt (see paragraph 2). The plus side is that if car designers really wanted to, they could bring the best of all worlds together and design a car/SUV that is not only fuel efficient but also safe and roomy (in the UK such vehicles are called 'people carriers') but will anyone in the US actually buy them? As things stand, the auto-makers can sell the same old same old and that's pretty much all they care about... Then, along came Tesla... MW On 13 Sep 2014, at 22:27, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: -OT pih trucks suvs- % Following the evdl member voted charter, pih is considered an Off-Topic, so lets try to round up pih discussions quicker, ending them sooner than EV discussions % IMO, there are now plenty of sedan EVs on the market, and larger EVs coming including the Soul and the env200 van. And there are lots of newswire noise of 200mi range EVs. But when I go to local markets to do my shopping, I see large/huge trucks ice that are driven around as their daily vehicle which likely has low mpg. Low mpg not only means more pollution but it is emptying out the family's income to feed the pump (BO gets the profits). Not to only profile the Latino populous, but many of the vehicle they drive a large puffy fairly new truck or suv ice. He uses them for not only work but to bring the whole family to do shopping. And I also see Mom using her large suv ice to carry the kids and all the many other items in the back she feels is needed (strollers, baby-bags, food, +lots of other junk). While Latinos may be the majority of the huge truck and suv ice drivers I see locally, they are the only ones. There is a sizable portion of drivers that like to make one vehicle have multiple uses (work, family, show-their-income-status, +more). But these are the same vehicles that can drain his business' assets each time he fills the tank. After losing my Blazer EV (in the wrong place at the wrong time), I had been rarely driving the used sedan ice I got until a I find a production EV that fits my needs (God gave me a big body). I have been driving it more recently since resolving my heart issues by routinely going to the VA hospital (20mi round-trip). But where I come to the pump, I see the poor soul that has dropped $80+ to fill their tank for the day. Whereas, I can get by on 1 gallon a week. That is a big ouch, taking a large bite out the families income. So, what is this large truck or suv ice market (what is the buyer seeking to purchase, etc.), and how have automakers approached making and selling pih versions. Automakers would have an incentive as the more pih they sell, the more ice model profits they can make. So what is it that large vehicle drivers described want from their purchase. The people I am talking to, are going by what they see their friends and neighbors driving: large puffy full sized pick-up trucks. These are not small nor light ice vehicles. All too often I see the driver's difficulty in getting out of a parking space because of its width, length, and larger turning radius. I liken their desire to have a large vehicle to wanting to have one of the biggest stallions around so
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
Also, US child-safety laws require add-in protective seats that don't really fit in smaller cars, and are unworkable in two-door cars. So, even in a full-size car or small ute, you're limited to two kids and two adults, and not much baggage, which isn't always sufficient. Thus the prevalence of larger utes with convertable third-row seating / trunk space. I didn't really get this until I had kids. We're lucky enough to have several cars (and bicycles) and be able to pick the right vehicle for each trip. We put most of our miles on a Ford Focus electric and a Ford C-Max PIH, and use an Audi Q7 when we have to. We leased the Q7, hoping that the Tesla X will be shipping by the time the lease runs out. We've got about 15k miles on the Focus, 5k miles on the C-Max (part-way through our third tank of gas), and about 800 on the Q7, mostly back and forth to the airport with kids and luggage, school field-trips, or when we have guests visiting. -Bill On Sep 14, 2014, at 10:07, CoreyH via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: As the driver of a large puffy vehicle and a person living in the USA I can tell you that we own and operate these vehicles because they represent the best utility value for many. They do cost a few dollars more per month to drive, but they are capable of handling much more than any sedan ever could. Also my truck gets a little better fuel economy than my BMW sedan!!! Especially here in the western rural states a truck is almost a necessary evil when your nearest re-supply city is 2-3 hours drive. I personally would love a PIH truck. I've considered building my own as the market does not seem to be rushing into this segment (as you pointed out). My guess is that the cost/benefit/complexity factors would make it a hard sell to the average truck user. I do think consumers will be demanding such trucks when they see first-hand how well the small EV cars evolve. Nothing would put a bigger grin on my face than being able to use a truck on purely electric power while making short trips, then being able to switch to a hybrid mode (CNG would be my preference) and take a 1000 mile trip. (We will often put over 1000 miles a weekend on our truck). As for your racial overtones- most Mexicans are great people that have a deep passion for their families. Many return home often to visit. I'm sure that a truck is the tool of choice because it fits their family and allows them to transport supplies, materials, and food to the families they visit. I met a guy from Chihuaha the other day that had a large round semi tank in his bed. They do this because they can buy fuel much cheaper in Mexico. Point is we either have the freedom to choose our lifestyles or we don't. It almost sounds like you want to force everyone to live like you. Where's the diversity in that? -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Electrifying-Large-Vehicles-converting-buyers-to-a-higher-mpge-design-tp4671523p4671541.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I think with the relatively recent CAFE (fuel economy) rules adopted by the EPA we will see a gradual change. I'm hoping that change will accelerate if Tesla and others can produce a 200+ mile range SUV or light truck at a cost (including long term fuel costs) comparable to ICE versions. For those who truly need larger capacity than a sedan (which includes me - I prefer station wagons, but don't see anything more than hatchbacks), the only alternative I see right now is a conversion or a Nissan eNV200. (See www.env200.com; it is shown in utility and people-mover versions.) It's not in production yet as far as I know. It's based on the Leaf platform so has the Leaf's range, which might not be enough for some. Hopefully all this talk of 200 mile range EVs will have an effect on specs prior to roll-out. Any others? All I can think of is commercial trucks made by low-volume manufacturers, which are made for industrial use - not families. Chris -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140914/8ab8e315/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
On Sep 14, 2014, at 11:49 AM, Chris Tromley via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Any others? NetGain has a PIH kit with a pair of inline smallish motors that replace much of the driveshaft and act as a range extender. I don't think they're readily available except as fleet conversions, but give 'em a call and they'll be delighted to talk to you and point you in the right direction for converting your own vehicle. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140914/6faee3fe/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design
[ref http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Electrifying-Large-Vehicles-converting-buyers-to-a-higher-mpge-design-tp4671523.html ] Martin, I think you have taken too many sensitivity pills, and taking offense to something that is not there. Enhance your calm, and be well. Rereading my original post, ... yea, I am guilty of typos, and wording errors that could have better expressed my target-marketing approach. I chock that up to perhaps being tired (lack of sleep from old age), and also my haste in wanting to put the original post out there for Sunday readers (I usually proof, and reproof several times before I post). From your perspective, I have offended your sensibilities. If I remember correctly, you do not live in the U.S. where we have a diverse mix of good-people of many different back grounds. Within those, some have commonalities that a marketing-team would identify by grouping them. I have posted in the past where a major automaker marketing-team target-marketed a set of ads and a model for one group of buyers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nMkKgb2vqI In a business or organization marketing-team meeting, they will 'target market' a particular group differently that another group. Perhaps they could have called each group a, b, c, ... x, and it may turn out that group c had mostly Latinos in it (a team member might call group c, the Latino group, etc.). They may have identified it that way to market with that group's perspective in mind, to communicate better their product, services, etc. Within each group, there are varied sub-groups. A marketing team will be targeting to sell or communicate to. I will give some of my person-on-the-street experiences as examples. A couple of days ago, I was in a city near the eaasv.org EVent I have been touting, checking up on some new NRG eVgo public L3 (CHAdeMO and combo) L2 EVSE that was installed at major supermarket chain store. As I was talking to an older couple (another group to target-market to) who were in their Fiat 500 Abarth ice, our conversation lead to letting them know of the 500e EV, the eaasv.org EVent happening nearby, all the while pointing out that new EVSE the store had put in, ... when a huge full-size (puffy) pick-up truck pulled in behind me and in typical fashion, parked taking two spaces like he owned the place. I did not see the guy driving as he went in to the store, but a quick glance let me know his couple of year old dirty and scratched-up work truck was used in construction. When he came back to leave, carrying a case of beer, I could see by his clothing he was of a person in construction (of Caucasian ancestry). In that case, I had previously approached local construction types before and knew their interest in electrified, better-mpge vehicles is even less than the Latino large-vehicle drivers. So, I would likely spend less of my effort on (one has to pick your battles to succeed more often). More examples are from yesterday, when I was out and about at a nearby public shoreline access area, working on getting some aerobic/walking exercise (so I sleep better). I was able to talk to several different people while I was doing that. Some of which were four young, 20ish guys (of Latino ancestry) hanging out in a small sedan. Whether they were tired from exercise (or some deleterious -buzzed- reasons), they were laid back with doors open, so I approached them to see if they were interested in the eaasv.org EVent (I always ask if they are interested first, and if not, I stop and thank them for their time). At first they said, ... not really. Before ending the conversation, I asked if anyone had heard of the Tesla. That made one guy's eyes perk-up. That was my hook to target market to their interest (performance, date-bait cars). So, these men not those large truck or suv ice drivers my original post was target marketing, I felt that if they came to the EVent, these men would share their plugin information they learned with family, friends and neighbors that were those large vehicle drivers (EVangelizing: its all about getting the word out). As we ended our conversation, the sedan driver wanted my name and shared me his (George), shaking my hand before I hobbled away using my walker. I turned and said I remember when I was young like them, and they all smiled :-) Later, I talked to a Mom with her young son (of Latino ancestry) that were playing with their two little dogs I was able to share information of the EVent with. They were quite happy to know such EVents happen. Approaching people like this is not an easy thing to do for some people. It is like doing cold-calls (a marketing term, like a door-to-door sales-type, where disappointment happens more often than not. Not a task for the faith of heart). Some of my approaches have been like a cold-calls as well. There was a couple of men (of Latino ancestry) using the public shoreline access to fish the SF bay slough (a water-way). I
