Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I remember that the city of Delft had its power distributed in a
similar fashion as the USA, with two phases at 115V to ground and
outlets wired with the two phases. Before the end of last century,
when The Netherlands was also driving to eliminate all overhead
wiring, even from rural areas, they also converted Delft from this
center-grounded system to the usual single phase 230V to ground &
Neutral, so they could use 3-phase distribution.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 7:11 PM Steve Gaarder via EV  wrote:
>
> As I understand it, 110 volts was chosen because an arc light operates at
> 55 volts, and thus two of them in series would work well.
>
> I believe Europe started out at 110/120, and moved up to 220/240 to reduce
> the need for copper, esp. after WWII.  When I lived in Europe in the
> 1960s, I traveled to places in France and Italy that had 110/120.  And I
> recall reading a posting from a German electrical worker describing what
> they did to convert a village from 110 to 220.
>
> And here's a writeup in voltages in Italy:
> https://samuele963.github.io/electrics/history.html
>
> Steve Gaarder
>
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > As far as I know, Edison decided on 110VDC (That's why people in the US
> > constantly refer to it as "110" when it's not been that way for over a
> > century), as that was high enough to make conductors reasonable, but not
> > terribly lethal, (so he claimed) light bulb filaments could bear it, and
> > switchgear could handle the arcs.  When AC came along, to preserve the same
> > light bulbs, they matched Edison's DC. (RMS)
> >
> > It started off as 110VAC, and slowly rose over the years until it was made
> > official in ANSI C81.1 in the early 1950's as 120VAC.
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Since *all* last-mile power lines are underground in Netherlands (and
in many EU countries) the common way to distribute power is to send
mid voltage to a "transformerhouse" which resembles a garage or
sometimes a small house in a residential neighborhood, which houses
the transformer to step the mid voltage down to 400V (3x 230V) as well
as the breakers and other switchgear for the local distribution.  This
transformer's secondary center (Neutral) connection was isolated from
the mid voltage and grounded (bonded, staked) to provide a grounded
Neutral even though the PE ground was ALSO carried from that
transformer into each house, so a fault in the Neutral down stream
would still not cause a dangerous situation. In Europe the housing of
anything is NEVER connected to either of the power wires, because even
today most EU outlets (not in all countries) allow you to freely
rotate the plug 180 deg anf plug in with the two wires reversed, so
you always have to account for either wire to be phase or Neutral.
The switchgear in the transferhouse included more than just breakers:
the one nearest to one house I lived in could be heard to produce a
loud *clang* at dusk and then the street lighting in the whole
neighborhood came on. This transformer provided this street light
circuit in addition to the 3 phase power that ran under the street and
sprouted a short branch into every home's crawl space, poking into the
utility closet and terminated at the hidden "utility fuse" that
protected the meter. Woe the person who overloaded their circuits to
the point that they blew their utility fuse (remember, typically 25A
or upgraded to 35A) and had to wait for the utility company to come,
break the seals and install a new fuse. Smaller homes typically had
between 4 to 7 circuits all fused at 16A (or in later years, breakers)
but still going to the same single phase meter and utility fuse... So,
no turning on your washing machine AND your dryer AND your dishwasher
AND boiling a kettle AND the microwave... because then darkness
ensued, even though the individual 16A circuits could easily carry
that, the limit was built-in at the utility entrance.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:55 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> The difference is historically whether there has been a bonded neutral.  My
> understanding is this wasn't common in EU until more recently.  (Bonded
> means a stake is driven in the ground at your house and connected to one
> side of the line that is then designated as the "neutral", meaning it has
> no voltage differential (or very little) with respect to the earth.
>
> In the US the "center tap" of the 240v transformer is what is bonded, so
> thus each leg is only 120V over the earth.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:33 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On 11 Mar 2024 at 17:37, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> >
> > > In my homes in either Netherlands or India, only the phase was
> > > protected with a breaker.
> >
> > I have heard that that's the case in the UK also - breakers are single
> > pole,
> > and open only the hot side.
> >
> > Maybe branch circuit breakers are double pole only in France.  I think
> > that
> > historically - maybe still - there was / is no standard for polarizing
> > French receptacles. Ungrounded plugs will fit them either way.
> >
> > So it's not possible to guarantee that the shell of the E27 lamp socket in
> > my desk lamp is at ground potential.
> >
> > Again, it's like the USA many years ago, when 2-pin plugs there were
> > unpolarized.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >  We can't solve problems by using the same kind
> >  of thinking we used when we created them.
> >
> > -- Alan Kay
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Steve Gaarder via EV]

As I understand it, 110 volts was chosen because an arc light operates at 
55 volts, and thus two of them in series would work well.


I believe Europe started out at 110/120, and moved up to 220/240 to reduce 
the need for copper, esp. after WWII.  When I lived in Europe in the 
1960s, I traveled to places in France and Italy that had 110/120.  And I 
recall reading a posting from a German electrical worker describing what 
they did to convert a village from 110 to 220.


And here's a writeup in voltages in Italy:
https://samuele963.github.io/electrics/history.html

Steve Gaarder

On Mon, 11 Mar 2024, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:


As far as I know, Edison decided on 110VDC (That's why people in the US
constantly refer to it as "110" when it's not been that way for over a
century), as that was high enough to make conductors reasonable, but not
terribly lethal, (so he claimed) light bulb filaments could bear it, and
switchgear could handle the arcs.  When AC came along, to preserve the same
light bulbs, they matched Edison's DC. (RMS)

It started off as 110VAC, and slowly rose over the years until it was made
official in ANSI C81.1 in the early 1950's as 120VAC.



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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The difference is historically whether there has been a bonded neutral.  My
understanding is this wasn't common in EU until more recently.  (Bonded
means a stake is driven in the ground at your house and connected to one
side of the line that is then designated as the "neutral", meaning it has
no voltage differential (or very little) with respect to the earth.

In the US the "center tap" of the 240v transformer is what is bonded, so
thus each leg is only 120V over the earth.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:33 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 11 Mar 2024 at 17:37, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
> > In my homes in either Netherlands or India, only the phase was
> > protected with a breaker.
>
> I have heard that that's the case in the UK also - breakers are single
> pole,
> and open only the hot side.
>
> Maybe branch circuit breakers are double pole only in France.  I think
> that
> historically - maybe still - there was / is no standard for polarizing
> French receptacles. Ungrounded plugs will fit them either way.
>
> So it's not possible to guarantee that the shell of the E27 lamp socket in
> my desk lamp is at ground potential.
>
> Again, it's like the USA many years ago, when 2-pin plugs there were
> unpolarized.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  We can't solve problems by using the same kind
>  of thinking we used when we created them.
>
> -- Alan Kay
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 11 Mar 2024 at 17:37, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> In my homes in either Netherlands or India, only the phase was
> protected with a breaker.

I have heard that that's the case in the UK also - breakers are single pole, 
and open only the hot side.

Maybe branch circuit breakers are double pole only in France.  I think that 
historically - maybe still - there was / is no standard for polarizing 
French receptacles. Ungrounded plugs will fit them either way.  

So it's not possible to guarantee that the shell of the E27 lamp socket in 
my desk lamp is at ground potential. 

Again, it's like the USA many years ago, when 2-pin plugs there were 
unpolarized.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 We can't solve problems by using the same kind
 of thinking we used when we created them.

-- Alan Kay
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 4:52 PM EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
> Circuit breakers are always double-pole, so they open both hot and neutral.

In my homes in either Netherlands or India, only the phase was
protected with a breaker.
Neutral was wired straight from the service entrance to the circuits/outlets.
Maybe that practice has changed in recent years, but I have not heard
from my family that they had to upgrade anything while they did
install EV chargers.
Now, the EV charger is likely to be required to disconnect both power
wires, including Neutral. But I have not heard about dual pole
breakers for single phase circuits there.
Cor.
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 1:35 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV
 wrote:
> That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v above 
> ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg.

The USA 240V is a split-phase system, meaning two 120V phases in 180
deg offset, simply created by a single winding with center tap off a
11kV mid voltage line and distribution transformer AKA "Pole Pig" if
it is one of the round barrel, pole mounted transformers.
The split phase is helping to reduce the amount of copper needed to
transport the 120V, because the Neutral return current from one phase
cancels the return current from the other phase.
THat is one of the reasons that you are requested to do a load
analysis and phase balance calculation when requesting the permit for
a service panel.
So, the Neutral does not need to carry *twice* the current of the two
phases, but it needs only to be as large as a single phase, so your
copper use is 75% of a single 120V feed with double the copper in the
phase and double the copper in the Neutral return, instead you have 3
wires, each 50% smaller conductors, so a saving of 25%.

In Europe all power is 3-phase, every single home has 3 phase plus
neutral coming into the utility closet, but often only a single phase
meter gets installed, though you can get it swapped for 3 phase when
you need more power. Typically a house is provided at least with 25A
single phase 230V and in a block of houses every 3rd house is on the
same phase as your house. (babyphones that send the signal over the
power wires work best if you visit the neighbors 3 homes over)
Since all power is 3-phase and the returns of the current in the
Neutral again cancel each other out, the Neutral only needs to be as
big as one of the 3 phases, so the saving in copper is 33% as you only
need 4 wires instead of 6, or 2 wires of 3x the amount of copper, to
transport the necessary power.
That is also why upstream of the mid voltage distribution transformer,
all USA grids are also 3-phase and commercial sites are supplied with
3-phase, either 480V (3x277V) or 208V (3x 120V).
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Bill Dube via EV]

The consensus is that ~30mA is the threshold for a fatal shock under 
ordinary circumstances:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_injury
and
https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physics/p616/safety/fatal_current.html

Thus, most countries pick 30 mA as the trip for GFCI (RCD). Picking a 
greater current increases the risk of fatalities, while picking a lower 
current increases the risk/frequency of nuisance tripping. 30 mA is the 
smart place to set the standard trip.


Nuisance tripping due to the lower 5 mA threshold actually reduces 
safety, if you think about it for a bit. Whole house GFCI protection is 
totally impractical at 5mA, while it is completely acceptable and the 
normal practice at 30 mA. Unprotected circuits in the household raise 
the safety risk, obviously. Bedroom outlets are a prime example of 
non-GFCI protected areas under the NEC. (They have arc fault protection, 
but that is a different animal entirely.)


Nuisance tripping will cause folks to defeat the GFCI protection by 
simply using an extension cord to an unprotected outlet (like one in a 
hallway) when they are in an area that requires a GFCI, like outdoors, 
or in the kitchen.


Keep in mind that 30 mA GFCI protection is required over the entire 
household, you can, but you aren't required, to use a single device to 
accomplish that coverage. I have several separate GFCI breakers, each 
covering different portions of my house. I have a separate GFCI breaker 
for the lighting. I have a separate GFCI breaker for the front outlets 
and one for the rear outlets. I have two separate GFCI circuits for 
outdoor outlets. They aren't terribly expensive, and having separate 
ones helps isolate any problems that may occur.



On 3/12/2024 8:42 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Cor van de Water wrote:

my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use
my garage to do any development work, because as soon as
I plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on,
the heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI
because it indeed creates a current to ground.

The easy answer is a big isolation transformer. I have some big 1KW ones that I 
use. (If anyone needs one, I have many, holding down the basement floor).


If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.

The original idea for a GFCI was safety; to keep people from being electrocuted 
(i.e. junior sticks a fork in the toaster with one hand to get his bread out, 
while the other hand is resting on the grounded sink. The 5mA limit was chosen 
as the maximum current that a normal healthy person would survive, since they 
can let go and jump away from the source of the shock. In medical settings, an 
even lower limit of 0.5mA was required, on the basis that hospital patients may 
well not be able to remove themselves from the source of the shock.

But these limits proved to be hard to design for. So manufacturers have lobbied 
for higher limits of 50mA. That's more than enough to kill a person. Yet the 
last I knew, our EVs are being designed to allow up to 50mA of ground leakage 
before their GFCI trips.

500mA for a GFCI limit? Gah! That would not only kill someone, but *cook* them 
as well!
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will
indeed trip guaranteed.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a
lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over
about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are
getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. I'd
definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages
everywhere.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV
wrote:


On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:


Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in
the world.

Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere,
including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South
Korea.

Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't
usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf
tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall.

I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling
surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It
appeared
to be a recent installation.

Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be
6kW
or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years. Spain has a lot
of
3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there.

On the 

Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 11 Mar 2024 at 20:33, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the non-us
> households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the
> panel and have split transformers like we have but rather they
> groundone leg as a neutral) 

I don't know about other places, but France doesn't have an equivalent of 
the US split phase system.  

It's 400 / 230 volt 3-phase. Older and/or larger houses often have 3-phase 
installed, especially if they were once farms or businesses. Newer houses 
usually just get one phase and neutral.  

You can request 3-phase from the utility, and charge your EV at up to 22kW, 
if the onboard charger allows.  (32a * 230v * 3ph) But the cost will be 
higher.

Circuit breakers are always double-pole, so they open both hot and neutral.

> That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v above
> ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg.

Yep, hot and neutral.  For a 3-phase installation, 3 hots and a neutral.

As I understand it, the neutral isn't grounded ahead of the house. Maybe 
that's why a lightning arrestor is usually fitted to the main panel.  But 
the neutral IS grounded at the main house service entrance, so the potential 
to ground is 230v.

Hence a 500ma main RCD, and smaller 30ma RCDs on each panel bus.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 Listen to the mustn'ts, child; listen to the don'ts. 
 Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. 
 Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me: 
 Anything can happen, child.  Anything can be.  

-- Shel Silverstein
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Rush via EV]

Lee wrote -   I have many, holding down the basement floor

How novel, so I if you ever want to move your house all you have to do is 
remove 
the transformers?

Best regards,

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV
www.TucsonEV.com




> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2024 12:42 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: Lee Hart 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV 
> courtesy
> outlet to a solar array)
>
> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use my garage
> > to do any development work, because as soon as I plug in one of my HP
> > power supplies, even before I turn it on, the heavy capacitive
> > filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI because it indeed creates
> > a current to ground.
>
> The easy answer is a big isolation transformer. I have some big 1KW ones that 
> I
> use. (If anyone needs one, I have many, holding down the basement floor).
>
> > If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
> > a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
>
> The original idea for a GFCI was safety; to keep people from being 
> electrocuted
> (i.e. junior sticks a fork in the toaster with one hand to get his bread out, 
> while the
> other hand is resting on the grounded sink. The 5mA limit was chosen as the
> maximum current that a normal healthy person would survive, since they can let
> go and jump away from the source of the shock. In medical settings, an even 
> lower
> limit of 0.5mA was required, on the basis that hospital patients may well not 
> be
> able to remove themselves from the source of the shock.
>
> But these limits proved to be hard to design for. So manufacturers have 
> lobbied 
> for
> higher limits of 50mA. That's more than enough to kill a person. Yet the last 
> I
> knew, our EVs are being designed to allow up to 50mA of ground leakage before
> their GFCI trips.
>
> 500mA for a GFCI limit? Gah! That would not only kill someone, but *cook* them
> as well!
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have a 
> breaker)
> that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
> This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will indeed trip
> guaranteed.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50?AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> >
> > Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a
> > lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever
> > over about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU
> > you are getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal.
> > I'd definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those
> > voltages everywhere.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25?AM EV List Lackey via EV
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > >
> > > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous
> > > > codes in the world.
> > >
> > > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices
> > > elsewhere, including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto
> > > Rico, and South Korea.
> > >
> > > Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes
> > > aren't usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The
> > > cable or smurf tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall.
> > >
> > > I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the
> > > ceiling surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US
> > > wiring. It appeared to be a recent installation.
> > >
> > > Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will
> > > be 6kW or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years.
> > > Spain has a lot of 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for
> > > EV home charging there.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU
> > > nations, the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage
> > > current.
> > >
> > > David Roden, EVDL moderator  general lackey
> > >
> > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
> > > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> > >
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > =
> > >
> > > Interpreter: One who enables two persons of different languages to
> > > understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been
> > > to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said.
> > >
> > > -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > =
> > >
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Lee,
I have designed EVSE so you can quote me on this: The GFI limit that
(level2, AC) EV Charging Stations are designed to for the USA is 20mA.
(For EU the limit is 30mA, the same limit as the standard GFCI
breakers in EU, although there is an additional requirement to detect
6mA DC Current leakage)
Apparently the car manufacturers recognised that 5mA is not a good
limit as even 20mA can cause nuisance trips, I have dealt with a few
installations of our chargers where the GFI alerted on a problem,
despite nothing being wrong with the charging station.
The common denominator that I have seen is noise on the grid.
In one installation it was perfectly reproducible - during the day,
not at night.
That set me on the path of Solar being the cause and indeed, that was
a home that had recently installed a *lot* of solar panels, each with
its own micro-inverter.
And I found out that the solar was at the same phase as the EV charger
(this was in EU, with 3 phase power, so the customer could move his
single phase charger to a different phase than the solar and his
problems ceased).
Apparently the high frequent switching of the inverters leaked into
the phase with high enough power that the heavy EMC filtering caps in
the EV caused the charger to see a "leakage" to ground on the phase
which was absent on the Neutral wire, hence the nuisance trips of the
GFI circuit in the charger.
NOTE that GFI in an EV charging is a *very* safe circuit, because it
is required for safety certification that the GFI circuit is verified
to detect a fault current after *every* charging session or on a
regular schedule, I believe once a day. So, every charger with safety
marking has a "fault-generating" circuit built-in that causes a 20mA
fault current through the Current Transformer that detect the GFI.
Usually this is a separate wire from the high power wire, specifically
to induce the fault current without affecting the charging cable.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 12:43 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use
> > my garage to do any development work, because as soon as
> > I plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on,
> > the heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI
> > because it indeed creates a current to ground.
>
> The easy answer is a big isolation transformer. I have some big 1KW ones that 
> I use. (If anyone needs one, I have many, holding down the basement floor).
>
> > If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
> > a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
>
> The original idea for a GFCI was safety; to keep people from being 
> electrocuted (i.e. junior sticks a fork in the toaster with one hand to get 
> his bread out, while the other hand is resting on the grounded sink. The 5mA 
> limit was chosen as the maximum current that a normal healthy person would 
> survive, since they can let go and jump away from the source of the shock. In 
> medical settings, an even lower limit of 0.5mA was required, on the basis 
> that hospital patients may well not be able to remove themselves from the 
> source of the shock.
>
> But these limits proved to be hard to design for. So manufacturers have 
> lobbied for higher limits of 50mA. That's more than enough to kill a person. 
> Yet the last I knew, our EVs are being designed to allow up to 50mA of ground 
> leakage before their GFCI trips.
>
> 500mA for a GFCI limit? Gah! That would not only kill someone, but *cook* 
> them as well!
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
> a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
> This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will
> indeed trip guaranteed.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> >
> > Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a
> > lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over
> > about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are
> > getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. I'd
> > definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages
> > everywhere.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > >
> > > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in
> > > > the world.
> > >
> > > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere,
> > > including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South
> > > Korea.
> > >
> > > Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't
> > > usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf
> > > tubing emerges from the 

Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

As far as I know, Edison decided on 110VDC (That's why people in the US
constantly refer to it as "110" when it's not been that way for over a
century), as that was high enough to make conductors reasonable, but not
terribly lethal, (so he claimed) light bulb filaments could bear it, and
switchgear could handle the arcs.  When AC came along, to preserve the same
light bulbs, they matched Edison's DC. (RMS)

It started off as 110VAC, and slowly rose over the years until it was made
official in ANSI C81.1 in the early 1950's as 120VAC.


On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 1:35 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
wrote:

>
> We have 240 volt systems of course (stove/dryer and less common nema 6-15
> etc..). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the
> non-us households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the
> panel and have split transformers like we have but rather they groundone
> leg as a neutral)
>
> That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v
> above ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and
> neutralleg.
>
>
>On Monday, March 11, 2024, 12:46:12  PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> I'm sure that there must be good reasons that the US chose 120 volts and
> most of the rest of the world chose 240 volts, but I don't know what they
> are.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

We have 240 volt systems of course (stove/dryer and less common nema 6-15 
etc..). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the non-us 
households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the panel and 
have split transformers like we have but rather they groundone leg as a neutral)

That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v above 
ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg.


   On Monday, March 11, 2024, 12:46:12  PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  

I'm sure that there must be good reasons that the US chose 120 volts and 
most of the rest of the world chose 240 volts, but I don't know what they 
are.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    Talking about the contents of this poster is illegal.  
    It is important that you share this information with 
    colleagues and neighbors, and discuss it with your 
    family.  Failure to do so may lead to prosecution.  
    For more information please reread.

                              -- Scarfolk Council poster
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 11 Mar 2024 at 12:05, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> As a consequence of the higher voltage, the current is lower for the
> same power and where I hear a lot about electrical fires in the USA,
> that is a rarity in Europe ...

The higher domestic voltage also allows for more powerful appliances. A 
typical French (and I assume most of EU, perhaps Asia) home receptacle 
circuit can supply 3.8kW, compared to 2.4kW in the US, so over 50% more. 

Plug connected space heaters and flatirons are typically 2kW, rather than 
the usual 1.2kw or 1.5kW in the US.  

An EV "granny cord" connected to a household or garage wall receptacle 
delivers 2.3kW.  A Dacia Spring will charge in ~11 hours at that rate, so 
it's practical.

You can also use ligher wire (less copper, lower cost) for the circuit 
wiring, and for the appliance cables.  And for a given size, there's less 
loss (waste heat, inefficiency) from wiring resistance.

I'm sure that there must be good reasons that the US chose 120 volts and 
most of the rest of the world chose 240 volts, but I don't know what they 
are.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 Talking about the contents of this poster is illegal.  
 It is important that you share this information with 
 colleagues and neighbors, and discuss it with your 
 family.  Failure to do so may lead to prosecution.  
 For more information please reread.

   -- Scarfolk Council poster
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Cor van de Water wrote:
> my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use
> my garage to do any development work, because as soon as
> I plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on,
> the heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI
> because it indeed creates a current to ground.

The easy answer is a big isolation transformer. I have some big 1KW ones that I 
use. (If anyone needs one, I have many, holding down the basement floor).

> If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
> a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.

The original idea for a GFCI was safety; to keep people from being electrocuted 
(i.e. junior sticks a fork in the toaster with one hand to get his bread out, 
while the other hand is resting on the grounded sink. The 5mA limit was chosen 
as the maximum current that a normal healthy person would survive, since they 
can let go and jump away from the source of the shock. In medical settings, an 
even lower limit of 0.5mA was required, on the basis that hospital patients may 
well not be able to remove themselves from the source of the shock.

But these limits proved to be hard to design for. So manufacturers have lobbied 
for higher limits of 50mA. That's more than enough to kill a person. Yet the 
last I knew, our EVs are being designed to allow up to 50mA of ground leakage 
before their GFCI trips.

500mA for a GFCI limit? Gah! That would not only kill someone, but *cook* them 
as well!
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will
indeed trip guaranteed.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a
> lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over
> about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are
> getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. I'd
> definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages
> everywhere.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV
> wrote:
>
> > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> >
> > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in
> > > the world.
> >
> > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere,
> > including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South
> > Korea.
> >
> > Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't
> > usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf
> > tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall.
> >
> > I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling
> > surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It
> > appeared
> > to be a recent installation.
> >
> > Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be
> > 6kW
> > or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years. Spain has a lot
> > of
> > 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there.
> >
> > On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU
> > nations,
> > the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage current.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator  general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > Interpreter: One who enables two persons of different languages
> > to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have
> > been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said.
> >
> > -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Phil wrote:
> no conductor is ever over about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground

I agree, but with one little nit to pick. My AC line voltage is normally 
120vac, and varies from about 115v to 124v depending on the current grid 
loading. The peak of 124vac is actually 170v; a situation that occurs here 
pretty often.

In fact, I had to add a 6v buck transformer between my PV inverter and grid (so 
it sees 114v when the grid is 120v). The inverter trips off if the grid hits 
126vac, which happened often enough to need the buck transformer.

You are exactly right on US NEC codes. They are written for fire and insurance 
purposes, not electrical safety. Enforcement is also more bureaucratic than 
technically accurate.
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
 
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

As a consequence of the higher voltage, the current is lower for the
same power and where I hear a lot about electrical fires in the USA,
that is a rarity in Europe, while here in the USA I personally know of
two people who had a starting electrical fire in a power strip, one
could barely keep the flames from setting the bedroom on fire.

Going back to GFCI: my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I
cannot use my garage to do any development work, because as soon as I
plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on, the
heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI because
it indeed creates a current to ground. Though it is not leakage, it is
actually intentional because this is how you squelch EMC emissions on
the power line. And how you trip the GFCI. I need to run an extension
cord from a non-GFCI circuit to avoid that the lab power supply trips
the GFCI, talk about nuisance trips!

If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will
indeed trip guaranteed.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a
> lower voltage.   In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over
> about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are
> getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal.   I'd
> definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages
> everywhere.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> >
> > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in
> > > the world.
> >
> > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere,
> > including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South
> > Korea.
> >
> > Some of them look like old USA practices.  Example: junction boxes aren't
> > usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf
> > tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall.
> >
> > I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling
> > surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It
> > appeared
> > to be a recent installation.
> >
> > Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be
> > 6kW
> > or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years.  Spain has a lot
> > of
> > 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there.
> >
> > On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU
> > nations,
> > the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage current.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >  Interpreter: One who enables two persons of different languages
> >  to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have
> >  been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said.
> >
> >   -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a
lower voltage.   In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over
about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are
getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal.   I'd
definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages
everywhere.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in
> > the world.
>
> Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere,
> including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South
> Korea.
>
> Some of them look like old USA practices.  Example: junction boxes aren't
> usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf
> tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall.
>
> I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling
> surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It
> appeared
> to be a recent installation.
>
> Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be
> 6kW
> or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years.  Spain has a lot
> of
> 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there.
>
> On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU
> nations,
> the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage current.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  Interpreter: One who enables two persons of different languages
>  to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have
>  been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said.
>
>   -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in
> the world. 

Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere, 
including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South 
Korea.

Some of them look like old USA practices.  Example: junction boxes aren't 
usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf 
tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall. 

I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling 
surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It appeared 
to be a recent installation.

Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be 6kW 
or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years.  Spain has a lot of 
3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there.

On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU nations, 
the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage current.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 Interpreter: One who enables two persons of different languages 
 to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have 
 been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said. 

  -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[jim--- via EV]

When I put my solar in about five years ago, I took the "opportunity" to 
replace my 100A Zinsco main panel with a 200A Siemens main panel.  On the new 
panel, the main breaker is at the bottom of the panel and the panel was marked 
that it was required to hook up solar to the top of the panel (breakers 1 & 2).


Jim Walls


-Original Message-
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 

I suppose where you place the solar breaker in the panel might matter, 
somewhat. It would likely be best if you placed the solar breaker on the 
far end, away from the main breaker. Thus, no portion of the bus bar 
would be subject to more amps than the main breaker current. (Think 
about this for a moment or two.)



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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I don't know if most know this, but the NEC (National Electrical Code) is
written by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association).  That is an
organization mainly driven by fire insurance underwriters.  We thus have an
electrical code carefully constructed and revised to reduce insurance
claims, regardless of cost or complexity.  Based on what I know, it's one
of the most rigorous codes in the world.

Individual States and local AHJs (Authorities Having Jurisdiction) decide
which version of the NEC to enforce, and sometimes add or modify it for
particular local conditions and practices.

Even if you live in an area without much enforcement, if you ever have a
fire because you did some shortcut in violation of NEC, you can bet the
insurance investigator will find it, as they spend a lot of time and effort
to find ways to deny claims.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 11:24 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> First, breakers themselves really don't care which way the power is
> flowing. I can't think of anything about a breaker that would behave
> differently if the power flows in or out of the bus bars.
>
> VERY large breakers need power on the input side to rewind the trip
> mechanism. Even then, you simply must rewind them with the manual crank
> if you are in a no power situation. (You can't reset them if they aren't
> rewound.) Aside from that, they also don't care which way the power flows.
>
> I can't recall ever seeing a bus bar overheat due to overloading. I
> suspect that the bus bars can take far more than the main breaker
> current. Keep in mind that temperature is the issue. The ohmic heating
> and the ambient temperature must cause the bus bar to rise to the point
> where the insulation will be damaged. Each breaker that you attach to
> the bus bar will both draw more current (perhaps) but will also help
> wick heat away from the bus bar.
>
> I suppose where you place the solar breaker in the panel might matter,
> somewhat. It would likely be best if you placed the solar breaker on the
> far end, away from the main breaker. Thus, no portion of the bus bar
> would be subject to more amps than the main breaker current. (Think
> about this for a moment or two.)
>
> Even if you were to put the solar breaker in the middle of the panel,
> the bus bars are not very likely to see a load greater than the main
> breaker current, because the circuits between the solar breaker and the
> main are drawing current. This draw is likely to be more than the solar
> breaker is supplying to the panel. Typically (but not always) it is
> general practice to install the larger current breakers near the top of
> the panel, near the main breaker.
>
>   I would guess that under any normal circumstances, the odds of a bus
> bar over load are vanishingly small, particularly if you don't place the
> solar breaker near the very top of the panel.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 3/11/2024 5:52 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
> > I'm going to chime in with a point.   Probably plenty all ready know it,
> but maybe some don't.
> > Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some
> electrical rules.   The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used
> to back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually
> look the other way.
> >
> > The problem is as follows.
> > Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.It has a big 200 amp breaker
> at the top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine
> that you have a 40 amp solar.
> > So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance
> and you are drawing 200 amps.  (or a tiny bit less).No problem as the
> main breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet.  Now turn on the 40
> amps of solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from
> the power company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances.
> But the important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially
> seeing 200 amps).Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps)  so
> now the bus bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't
> flip (because it's now it only sees 200 amps.
> > So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they
> are rated for.
> > The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps
> but almost nobody does that.
> >
> > But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not
> really correct.
> > Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to
> a solar panel not being entirely kosher.
> >
> > -- next part --
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> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/6489e531/attachment.htm
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> 

[EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Bill Dube via EV]

First, breakers themselves really don't care which way the power is 
flowing. I can't think of anything about a breaker that would behave 
differently if the power flows in or out of the bus bars.


VERY large breakers need power on the input side to rewind the trip 
mechanism. Even then, you simply must rewind them with the manual crank 
if you are in a no power situation. (You can't reset them if they aren't 
rewound.) Aside from that, they also don't care which way the power flows.


I can't recall ever seeing a bus bar overheat due to overloading. I 
suspect that the bus bars can take far more than the main breaker 
current. Keep in mind that temperature is the issue. The ohmic heating 
and the ambient temperature must cause the bus bar to rise to the point 
where the insulation will be damaged. Each breaker that you attach to 
the bus bar will both draw more current (perhaps) but will also help 
wick heat away from the bus bar.


I suppose where you place the solar breaker in the panel might matter, 
somewhat. It would likely be best if you placed the solar breaker on the 
far end, away from the main breaker. Thus, no portion of the bus bar 
would be subject to more amps than the main breaker current. (Think 
about this for a moment or two.)


Even if you were to put the solar breaker in the middle of the panel, 
the bus bars are not very likely to see a load greater than the main 
breaker current, because the circuits between the solar breaker and the 
main are drawing current. This draw is likely to be more than the solar 
breaker is supplying to the panel. Typically (but not always) it is 
general practice to install the larger current breakers near the top of 
the panel, near the main breaker.


 I would guess that under any normal circumstances, the odds of a bus 
bar over load are vanishingly small, particularly if you don't place the 
solar breaker near the very top of the panel.


Bill D.

On 3/11/2024 5:52 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:

I'm going to chime in with a point.   Probably plenty all ready know it, but 
maybe some don't.
Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some 
electrical rules.   The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used to 
back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually look 
the other way.

The problem is as follows.
Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.    It has a big 200 amp breaker at the 
top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine that you 
have a 40 amp solar.
So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance and 
you are drawing 200 amps.  (or a tiny bit less).    No problem as the main 
breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet.  Now turn on the 40 amps of 
solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from the power 
company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances.    But the 
important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially seeing 200 
amps).    Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps)  so now the bus 
bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't flip (because it's 
now it only sees 200 amps.
So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they are 
rated for.
The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps but 
almost nobody does that.

But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not really 
correct.
Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to a 
solar panel not being entirely kosher.

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