Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread brucedp5 via EV

(Corrections requested)
With convenience stores (7-11, etc.) trying to be gas stations, and gas
stations trying to be convenience stores, whatever pump you pull up to, the
business draws power and people.

24 hour stations are the normal here and are located just off a highway (101
or 280). Customers range from those with less cash on hand that only buy
enough to get home (5 minutes at the pump), to those with large (puffy)
trucks or SUVs that swallow 30+ gallons (15 minutes at the pump). 
(Average: 10 minutes at the pump for each customer). 
Midnight to 6 the customer count is less.

Using a station I see when going to my local VA hospital as an example
http://www.sanfrangasprices.com/map_gas_prices.aspx?z=11=37.462992015873=-122.224724292755=15611=All

 it has two pumps at each of two islands, each pump can handle a customer on
each side for a total of 8 customers at a time (they are usually always in
use)
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRsYDkH1F85Z2d7raR2yj45ADCgKmbnAkN6RDGgzrvxv-CFeJaj8w

Plus there is power drawn for the mini convenience store as well as two
fully functional ice repair-smog bays, each with their own car lifts
http://www.kings76.com/var/m_8/89/891/216858/CACHED_288910-990-500.jpg

I would guesstimate that the station has a 208VAC 100A circuit and in a 24
hour period is on average only using 50% of its capacity:
 208VAC *  100A * .8 * .5 * 24hours = 199.680kWh per day.

8 customers every 10 minutes figuring they have half as many customers from
midnight to 6am:
 8 * 6 * 24hours * .75 = 864

So 200kWh used, serving 864 customers in a 24 hour period.

200kWh / 864 = 0.23kwh per customer in a 24 hour period.




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{brucedp.150m.com}

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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Brandon Hines via EV


I am guessing that there is less brand loyalty for convenience stores
than for gas stations.  At the very least there will be consolidation
among convenience stores.  I cannot imagine the market supporting four
convenience stores within a block of each other.  But more importantly,
these convenience stores are only convenient because people have to stop
for gas.  If people no longer need to stop the market will consolidate
and many will go away.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/gas+stations/@33.5239679,-112.1133195,17.25z


-Brandon

On 12/05/2015 10:00 PM, Peri Hartman wrote:
> Why would they go away?  People don't go to convenience stores to buy
> gas.  Certainly buying gas encourages buying something inside but the
> demand for convenience shopping was around long before service station
> morphed into convenience stores with gas pumps.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Brandon Hines via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 05-Dec-15 7:22:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
> pumping gas too!)
>
>> If people primarily charge at home then wouldn't most convenience stores
>> go away?
>>
>> Brandon
>>
>> On 12/05/2015 11:44 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>>  That's great info, Tom!
>>>
>>>  I think the convenience store aspect would remain, so just dividing
>>>  your numbers by four might be more realistic.  That's still 250-300 or
>>>  so miles per day EV equivalent.  Amazing!
>>>
>>>  It would be good to corroborate this data.  I'm hoping that this store
>>>  is an anomaly.
>>>
>>>  Peri
>>>
>>>  -- Original Message ------
>>>  From: "Tom Keenan" <tnan...@yahoo.com>
>>>  To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
>>>  List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>>  Sent: 05-Dec-15 9:36:12 AM
>>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
>>>  pumping gas too!)
>>>
>>>>  About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner
>>>>  what the normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said
>>>>  about 350 kWh in summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas
>>>>  heating). I asked if this was for an entire month, and me said no,
>>>>  that was the amount used for a single day!  He showed his power bill
>>>>  as proof.  I was quite surprised, as my house uses roughly that
>>>>  amount per month.
>>>>
>>>>  Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers
>>>>  (about a dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight
>>>>  gasoline and two diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a quarter
>>>>  of the total energy use for his station.
>>>>
>>>>  If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves
>>>>  perhaps 2,000 vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is
>>>>  between 125 and 175 Watt-hours
>>>>  (0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account
>>>>  their 'use' of powering the store, whether they buy soda and
>>>>  cigarettes or not.
>>>>
>>>>  Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the
>>>>  equation- extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use vastly
>>>>  more amounts of energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total
>>>>  energy used per vehicle would need to include that power used as
>>>> well.
>>>>
>>>>  Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to
>>>>  customer attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh
>>>>  available per day for the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250
>>>>  Wh/mi, that would translate to 1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of
>>>>  electric driving. Or enough miles/power to satisfy about 25 to 35 EVs
>>>>  doing forty-mile (round trip) commutes.   The gas station attrition
>>>>  model would appear to need to eliminate about 2,000 ICE vehicles to
>>>>  shut down one gas station.
>>>>
>>>>  Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...
>>>>
>>>>  Tom Keenan
>>>>
>>>>>   On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   That would be interesting information

Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Tom Keenan via EV
Yep - the old 'fat fingers' on the bitty keyboard.  The owner said he normally 
gets 200 to 400 cars per day - it is a busy station.  So, instead of 125 to 175 
Wh per car share of the gas station power use, it works out higher, to 1.25 - 
1.75 kWh per customer.  Five to seven EV miles could be driven on just the 
electricity used by this gas station/store per ICE gasoline tank fill as a 
rough estimate. 

As fas as convenience stores that are primarily gas stations (the customers go 
there to get gas, but also buy chips, soda, coffee, etc. because it is a handy 
impulse buy) are different than convenience stores that also sell gas 
(customers go primarily to get milk, newspapers, lotto, beer, cigarettes, and 
occasionally get gas, if they have the time and need).  

The price or handy accessibility of gasoline attracts some customers to the 
convenience store at the first sort, and the ready availability of staple items 
attracts some people to the gas pumps at the second, but gasoline is not the 
prime attractant.  These secondary stores generally don't have very many gas 
dispensers; oftentimes only two vehicles can fill simultaneously. Gasoline is a 
significant part of business in the first model, and the associated convenience 
store would probably fold if they had no customers stopping by to get gas.  If 
gasoline sales fell off at the second sort, the associated store would likely 
continue in business, at least for a while. 

Tom Keenan

> On Dec 5, 2015, at 5:29 PM, Robert Bruninga <bruni...@usna.edu> wrote:
> 
> Where did y ou get the 2000 cars a day at the gas station?  That seems huge.  
> That's 1 every 30 seconds solid over a 15 hour day.
> 
> I'd believe may 200, but not 2000.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
>> wrote:
>> That's great info, Tom!
>> 
>> I think the convenience store aspect would remain, so just dividing your 
>> numbers by four might be more realistic.  That's still 250-300 or so miles 
>> per day EV equivalent.  Amazing!
>> 
>> It would be good to corroborate this data.  I'm hoping that this store is an 
>> anomaly.
>> 
>> Peri
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Tom Keenan" <tnan...@yahoo.com>
>> To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>> Sent: 05-Dec-15 9:36:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping 
>> gas too!)
>> 
>>> About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner what the 
>>> normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said about 350 kWh in 
>>> summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas heating). I asked if this 
>>> was for an entire month, and me said no, that was the amount used for a 
>>> single day!  He showed his power bill as proof.  I was quite surprised, as 
>>> my house uses roughly that amount per month.
>>> 
>>> Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers (about a 
>>> dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight gasoline and two 
>>> diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a quarter of the total energy 
>>> use for his station.
>>> 
>>> If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves perhaps 
>>> 2,000 vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is between 125 and 175 
>>> Watt-hours
>>> (0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account their 
>>> 'use' of powering the store, whether they buy soda and cigarettes or not.
>>> 
>>> Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the 
>>> equation- extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use vastly more 
>>> amounts of energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total energy used per 
>>> vehicle would need to include that power used as well.
>>> 
>>> Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to customer 
>>> attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh available per day 
>>> for the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250 Wh/mi, that would translate 
>>> to 1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of electric driving. Or enough miles/power 
>>> to satisfy about 25 to 35 EVs doing forty-mile (round trip) commutes.   The 
>>> gas station attrition model would appear to need to eliminate about 2,000 
>>> ICE vehicles to shut down one gas station.
>>> 
>>> Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...
>>> 
>>> Tom Keenan
>>> 
>>>>  On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri

Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

That's great info, Tom!

I think the convenience store aspect would remain, so just dividing your 
numbers by four might be more realistic.  That's still 250-300 or so 
miles per day EV equivalent.  Amazing!


It would be good to corroborate this data.  I'm hoping that this store 
is an anomaly.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Tom Keenan" <tnan...@yahoo.com>
To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>

Sent: 05-Dec-15 9:36:12 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop 
pumping gas too!)


About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner what 
the normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said about 350 
kWh in summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas heating). I 
asked if this was for an entire month, and me said no, that was the 
amount used for a single day!  He showed his power bill as proof.  I 
was quite surprised, as my house uses roughly that amount per month.


Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers 
(about a dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight 
gasoline and two diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a quarter 
of the total energy use for his station.


If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves 
perhaps 2,000 vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is between 
125 and 175 Watt-hours
(0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account their 
'use' of powering the store, whether they buy soda and cigarettes or 
not.


Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the 
equation- extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use vastly 
more amounts of energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total energy 
used per vehicle would need to include that power used as well.


Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to customer 
attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh available per 
day for the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250 Wh/mi, that would 
translate to 1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of electric driving. Or 
enough miles/power to satisfy about 25 to 35 EVs doing forty-mile 
(round trip) commutes.   The gas station attrition model would appear 
to need to eliminate about 2,000 ICE vehicles to shut down one gas 
station.


Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...

Tom Keenan

 On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
wrote:


 That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an 
answer, based on this EIA graph:


 http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21

 Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of 
residential (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from EIA, 
for residential is 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average 
commercial location uses 8.8MwH per year.


 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3

 Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including 
accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver 
goes 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.


 So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses 
enough electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.


 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop 
pumping gas too!)



 : MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
 BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by 
overloading

 our power network, senior Tories fear.


 Typical right wing ignorance.

 What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas 
stations
 remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station 
consume  My
 wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50 EV's. 
 Now
 add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas stations, 
and

 turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
 distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity 
consumed

 pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it’s a WASH!

 Tonight I'm going to drop by my neighborhood gas station and see if 
the
 owner will tell me his electric bill and even better, if he will 
tell me how
 many cars he serves.  I DOUBT he will tell me anything about the 
number of
 cars and the amount of gas since he is in EXTREME competition with 
the
 statinon across the road, but maybe he will reveal the electric 
bill.


 But we need this number.  GO get your local number and lets compare 
notes.


 Bob
 ---






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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Tom Keenan via EV
About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner what the 
normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said about 350 kWh in 
summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas heating). I asked if this was 
for an entire month, and me said no, that was the amount used for a single day! 
 He showed his power bill as proof.  I was quite surprised, as my house uses 
roughly that amount per month. 

Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers (about a 
dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight gasoline and two 
diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a quarter of the total energy use 
for his station. 

If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves perhaps 2,000 
vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is between 125 and 175 Watt-hours
(0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account their 'use' of 
powering the store, whether they buy soda and cigarettes or not. 

Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the equation- 
extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use vastly more amounts of 
energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total energy used per vehicle would 
need to include that power used as well. 

Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to customer 
attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh available per day for 
the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250 Wh/mi, that would translate to 
1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of electric driving. Or enough miles/power to 
satisfy about 25 to 35 EVs doing forty-mile (round trip) commutes.   The gas 
station attrition model would appear to need to eliminate about 2,000 ICE 
vehicles to shut down one gas station. 

Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...

Tom Keenan

> On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an answer, based 
> on this EIA graph:
> 
> http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21
> 
> Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of residential 
> (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from EIA, for residential is 
> 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average commercial location uses 8.8MwH 
> per year.
> 
> https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3
> 
> Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including 
> accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver goes 
> 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.
> 
> So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses enough 
> electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas 
> too!)
> 
>>> : MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
>>> BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by overloading
>>> our power network, senior Tories fear.
>> 
>> Typical right wing ignorance.
>> 
>> What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas stations
>> remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station consume  My
>> wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50 EV's.  Now
>> add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas stations, and
>> turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
>> distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity consumed
>> pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it’s a WASH!
>> 
>> Tonight I'm going to drop by my neighborhood gas station and see if the
>> owner will tell me his electric bill and even better, if he will tell me how
>> many cars he serves.  I DOUBT he will tell me anything about the number of
>> cars and the amount of gas since he is in EXTREME competition with the
>> statinon across the road, but maybe he will reveal the electric bill.
>> 
>> But we need this number.  GO get your local number and lets compare notes.
>> 
>> Bob
>> ---
> 
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Where did y ou get the 2000 cars a day at the gas station?  That seems
huge.  That's 1 every 30 seconds solid over a 15 hour day.

I'd believe may 200, but not 2000.

Bob

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> That's great info, Tom!
>
> I think the convenience store aspect would remain, so just dividing your
> numbers by four might be more realistic.  That's still 250-300 or so miles
> per day EV equivalent.  Amazing!
>
> It would be good to corroborate this data.  I'm hoping that this store is
> an anomaly.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Tom Keenan" <tnan...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 05-Dec-15 9:36:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping
> gas too!)
>
> About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner what
>> the normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said about 350 kWh
>> in summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas heating). I asked if
>> this was for an entire month, and me said no, that was the amount used for
>> a single day!  He showed his power bill as proof.  I was quite surprised,
>> as my house uses roughly that amount per month.
>>
>> Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers (about
>> a dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight gasoline and two
>> diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a quarter of the total energy
>> use for his station.
>>
>> If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves perhaps
>> 2,000 vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is between 125 and 175
>> Watt-hours
>> (0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account their
>> 'use' of powering the store, whether they buy soda and cigarettes or not.
>>
>> Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the
>> equation- extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use vastly more
>> amounts of energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total energy used per
>> vehicle would need to include that power used as well.
>>
>> Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to customer
>> attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh available per day
>> for the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250 Wh/mi, that would translate
>> to 1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of electric driving. Or enough miles/power
>> to satisfy about 25 to 35 EVs doing forty-mile (round trip) commutes.   The
>> gas station attrition model would appear to need to eliminate about 2,000
>> ICE vehicles to shut down one gas station.
>>
>> Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...
>>
>> Tom Keenan
>>
>>  On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an answer,
>>> based on this EIA graph:
>>>
>>>  http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21
>>>
>>>  Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of
>>> residential (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from EIA, for
>>> residential is 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average commercial
>>> location uses 8.8MwH per year.
>>>
>>>  https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3
>>>
>>>  Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including
>>> accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver goes
>>> 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.
>>>
>>>  So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses
>>> enough electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.
>>>
>>>  Peri
>>>
>>>  -- Original Message --
>>>  From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>>  To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>>  Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
>>>  Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping
>>> gas too!)
>>>
>>>  : MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
>>>>>  BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by
>>>>> overloading
>>>>>  our power network, senior Tories fear.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Typical right wing ignorance.
>>>>
>>>>  What happe

Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Brandon Hines via EV
If people primarily charge at home then wouldn't most convenience stores
go away?

Brandon

On 12/05/2015 11:44 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> That's great info, Tom!
>
> I think the convenience store aspect would remain, so just dividing
> your numbers by four might be more realistic.  That's still 250-300 or
> so miles per day EV equivalent.  Amazing!
>
> It would be good to corroborate this data.  I'm hoping that this store
> is an anomaly.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Tom Keenan" <tnan...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 05-Dec-15 9:36:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
> pumping gas too!)
>
>> About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner
>> what the normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said
>> about 350 kWh in summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas
>> heating). I asked if this was for an entire month, and me said no,
>> that was the amount used for a single day!  He showed his power bill
>> as proof.  I was quite surprised, as my house uses roughly that
>> amount per month.
>>
>> Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers
>> (about a dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight
>> gasoline and two diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a quarter
>> of the total energy use for his station.
>>
>> If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves
>> perhaps 2,000 vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is
>> between 125 and 175 Watt-hours
>> (0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account
>> their 'use' of powering the store, whether they buy soda and
>> cigarettes or not.
>>
>> Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the
>> equation- extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use vastly
>> more amounts of energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total
>> energy used per vehicle would need to include that power used as well.
>>
>> Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to
>> customer attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh
>> available per day for the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250
>> Wh/mi, that would translate to 1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of
>> electric driving. Or enough miles/power to satisfy about 25 to 35 EVs
>> doing forty-mile (round trip) commutes.   The gas station attrition
>> model would appear to need to eliminate about 2,000 ICE vehicles to
>> shut down one gas station.
>>
>> Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...
>>
>> Tom Keenan
>>
>>>  On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an
>>> answer, based on this EIA graph:
>>>
>>>  http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21
>>>
>>>  Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of
>>> residential (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from
>>> EIA, for residential is 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average
>>> commercial location uses 8.8MwH per year.
>>>
>>>  https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3
>>>
>>>  Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including
>>> accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver
>>> goes 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.
>>>
>>>  So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses
>>> enough electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.
>>>
>>>  Peri
>>>
>>>  -- Original Message --
>>>  From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>>  To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>>  Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
>>>  Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
>>> pumping gas too!)
>>>
>>>>>  : MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
>>>>>  BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by
>>>>> overloading
>>>>>  our power network, senior Tories fear.
>>>>
>>>>  Typical right wing ignorance.
>>>>
>>>>  What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas
>>>> stations
>>&

Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-05 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Why would they go away?  People don't go to convenience stores to buy 
gas.  Certainly buying gas encourages buying something inside but the 
demand for convenience shopping was around long before service station 
morphed into convenience stores with gas pumps.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Brandon Hines via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 05-Dec-15 7:22:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop 
pumping gas too!)


If people primarily charge at home then wouldn't most convenience 
stores

go away?

Brandon

On 12/05/2015 11:44 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

 That's great info, Tom!

 I think the convenience store aspect would remain, so just dividing
 your numbers by four might be more realistic.  That's still 250-300 
or

 so miles per day EV equivalent.  Amazing!

 It would be good to corroborate this data.  I'm hoping that this 
store

 is an anomaly.

 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Tom Keenan" <tnan...@yahoo.com>
 To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
 List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 Sent: 05-Dec-15 9:36:12 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
 pumping gas too!)


 About two years ago, I asked a gas station/convenience store owner
 what the normal amounts of electricity they used were, and he said
 about 350 kWh in summer, and 250 kWh in the winter. (Natural gas
 heating). I asked if this was for an entire month, and me said no,
 that was the amount used for a single day!  He showed his power bill
 as proof.  I was quite surprised, as my house uses roughly that
 amount per month.

 Granted, most of the energy was used for beverage and food coolers
 (about a dozen) and air conditioning. He estimated that the eight
 gasoline and two diesel dispensers and lift pumps was about a 
quarter

 of the total energy use for his station.

 If one considers this a typical store/gas station, and it serves
 perhaps 2,000 vehicles a day, each vehicle's share of energy is
 between 125 and 175 Watt-hours
 (0.125 to 0.175 kWh) when they fuel up.  This takes into account
 their 'use' of powering the store, whether they buy soda and
 cigarettes or not.

 Obviously, energy used at a gas station is only a small part of the
 equation- extraction, transport, and refining of crude oil use 
vastly

 more amounts of energy in the whole petroleum cycle.  The total
 energy used per vehicle would need to include that power used as 
well.


 Thought of another way, if the station were to go away (due to
 customer attrition)  there would be an additional 250 to 350 kWh
 available per day for the grid to power plug-in vehicles.  At 250
 Wh/mi, that would translate to 1,000 to 1,400 miles per day of
 electric driving. Or enough miles/power to satisfy about 25 to 35 
EVs

 doing forty-mile (round trip) commutes.   The gas station attrition
 model would appear to need to eliminate about 2,000 ICE vehicles to
 shut down one gas station.

 Feel free to check my math - done on an iPhone...

 Tom Keenan

  On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>

 wrote:

  That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an
 answer, based on this EIA graph:

  
http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21


  Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of
 residential (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from
 EIA, for residential is 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average
 commercial location uses 8.8MwH per year.

  https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3

  Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including
 accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver
 goes 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.

  So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station 
uses

 enough electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.

  Peri

  -- Original Message --
  From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
  To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
  Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
  Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop
 pumping gas too!)


  : MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
  BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by
 overloading
  our power network, senior Tories fear.


  Typical right wing ignorance.

  What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas
 stations
  remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station
 consume  My
  wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50
 EV's.  Now
  add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas 
stations,

 and
  turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
  distribution system, and turning off HALF of al

Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses enough
> electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.

That is an absurdly low number.  The average American 20 mile/day is about
$40 worth of electricity.  A wild a$$ gues that the electric bill for a gas
station is on the order of $800 per month, would make that be 20 cars.  So I
guess my original guess of 50 cars is about the same as assuing an average
gas station electric bill of $1600/mo.  OK, lets get the data...

And even if you say that a lot of that goes to the service bay and the
mechanic, and the oil changer, remember that most of that all goes away when
EV's rule.  EV's will need only 10% of the greasemonkey type maintenance
too.

-Original Message-
From: Peri Hartman [mailto:pe...@kotatko.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 10:09 AM
To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping
gas too!)

That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an answer, based
on this EIA graph:

http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21

Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of residential
(this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from EIA, for residential is
11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average commercial location uses 8.8MwH
per year.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3

Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including
accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver goes
2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.

So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses enough
electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas
too!)

>>: MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
>>  BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by
>>overloading
>>  our power network, senior Tories fear.
>
>Typical right wing ignorance.
>
>What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas
>stations remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station
>consume
>My
>wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50 EV's.
>Now
>add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas stations, and
>turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
>distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity
>consumed pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it’s a WASH!
>
>Tonight I'm going to drop by my neighborhood gas station and see if the
>owner will tell me his electric bill and even better, if he will tell
>me how many cars he serves.  I DOUBT he will tell me anything about the
>number of cars and the amount of gas since he is in EXTREME competition
>with the statinon across the road, but maybe he will reveal the
>electric bill.
>
>But we need this number.  GO get your local number and lets compare
>notes.
>
>Bob
>-
>A Cabinet row has broken out over the plug-in motors.
>
>Eco-loving ministers at the Environment and Transport departments say
>greener roads with millions of the electric vehicles is vital for clean
>air.
>
>But the Department of Energy and Climate Change fear we don’t have
>enough power for them.
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>racing at NEDRA
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>
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:28 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> The average American 20 mile/day is about
> $40 worth of electricity.

Wha…?

Assume 3 miles per kWh. Rounding up, that’s 7 kWh for your daily mileage. Most 
places are within shouting distance of $0.10 / kWh for off-peak EV charging, 
which puts the daily electricity cost under $1.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an answer, 
based on this EIA graph:


http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21

Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of 
residential (this is a visual interpretation).  The figure, from EIA, 
for residential is 11MwH per year.  So, let's say the average commercial 
location uses 8.8MwH per year.


https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3

Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including 
accessories, charging losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver goes 
2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.


So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses 
enough electricy to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping 
gas too!)



: MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
 BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by 
overloading

 our power network, senior Tories fear.


Typical right wing ignorance.

What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas 
stations
remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station consume  
My
wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50 EV's.  
Now

add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas stations, and
turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity 
consumed

pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it’s a WASH!

Tonight I'm going to drop by my neighborhood gas station and see if the
owner will tell me his electric bill and even better, if he will tell 
me how
many cars he serves.  I DOUBT he will tell me anything about the number 
of

cars and the amount of gas since he is in EXTREME competition with the
statinon across the road, but maybe he will reveal the electric bill.

But we need this number.  GO get your local number and lets compare 
notes.


Bob
-
A Cabinet row has broken out over the plug-in motors.

Eco-loving ministers at the Environment and Transport departments say
greener roads with millions of the electric vehicles is vital for clean 
air.


But the Department of Energy and Climate Change fear we don’t have 
enough

power for them.
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> EVs will be very good for the grid…but not because we’ll be shutting down
> gas stations.

Agreed, completely.  But my point was that I have never seen anyone look at
this point of view as to what electricity is saved by not moving so much gas
around everywhere.  Though small, It’s a data point we need to include in
our quiver and come up with some numbers...

Bob

b&
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> Though small, It’s a data point we need to include in
> our quiver and come up with some numbers...

I think focussing on the small fry might be distracting and counterproductive. 
If you really want to do that sort of thing, you’d have to come up with a 
complete well-to-wheels analysis, including lifetime manufacturing / recycling 
impact. But that’s a monumental task.

Just pointing out that EVs mean that utilities will profit from excess 
overnight baseload capacity that’s currently one of their biggest financial 
drains…that right there is enough to shut down the naysayers. Add in 
vehicle-to-grid two-way smart chargers that can mean shutting down peaking 
plants and you’ve sealed the deal. Then mention that the utilities will take 
away all the private vehicle energy sales profits from the petroleum companies? 
No need for hookers and blow at that point.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Bill Dube via EV
 Overall, the electricity use will remain the same or rise a small 
amount. Many studies have shown this.


1) Compact fluorescent and LED bulbs as well as the move toward other 
more efficient household appliances will tend to counteract the added 
load of EVs on the grid.


2) EV's tend to charge through night, when the load on the grid is quite 
small. Basically, EVs load the grid during non-peak hours, or can be 
incentivized to do so if grid peak load becomes an issue.


3) We should not forget that as roof top solar panels gain in popularity 
they will ease the load on total power generation, offsetting any 
additional generation load EVs might add in total.


Old argument. Debunked numerous times in the past. Never held water in 
the past and certainly doesn't now. Also, with EV's gaining in 
popularity, grid overloading has not proved to be an issue.


Bill Dube'

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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Dec 4, 2015, at 7:47 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station consume

Nowhere near as much as you’re suggesting. As a general rule, Americans use 
about as much energy on personal transportation as for household electricity, 
with the cars generally more than the house. There’s no way the corner gas 
station has as much electricity load as 50 houses.

EVs will increase electricity consumption, and increase it significantly. But 
EVs are mostly charged at night when the power plants are producing more than 
people are using. And EVs are perfectly suited to soaking up excess 
renewables…and even backfeeding to level out demand and reduce the need for 
expensive peaking generation.

EVs will be very good for the grid…but not because we’ll be shutting down gas 
stations.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Well, it's not that bad.  ICE cars are, perhaps, 20% efficient and EVs 
around 80%.  So you would divide your number by 4.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Ben Goren via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Robert Bruninga" <bruni...@usna.edu>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>

Sent: 04-Dec-15 7:11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop 
pumping gas too!)


On Dec 4, 2015, at 7:47 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
wrote:



 How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station consume


Nowhere near as much as you’re suggesting. As a general rule, Americans 
use about as much energy on personal transportation as for household 
electricity, with the cars generally more than the house. There’s no 
way the corner gas station has as much electricity load as 50 houses.


EVs will increase electricity consumption, and increase it 
significantly. But EVs are mostly charged at night when the power 
plants are producing more than people are using. And EVs are perfectly 
suited to soaking up excess renewables…and even backfeeding to level 
out demand and reduce the need for expensive peaking generation.


EVs will be very good for the grid…but not because we’ll be shutting 
down gas stations.


b&
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Jim Walls via EV
Ben, I did the same thing until I realized Bob was talking about per month.  
For a ballpark figure, Bob's figure is close enough.
  
 Jim
  
  


 From: "Ben Goren via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Friday, December 4, 2015 7:35 AM
To: "Robert Bruninga" <bruni...@usna.edu>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas 
too!)   
On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:28 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > 
> The average American 20 mile/day is about > $40 worth of electricity. Wha.? 
Assume 3 miles per kWh. Rounding up, that's 7 kWh for your daily mileage. Most 
places are within shouting distance of $0.10 / kWh for off-peak EV charging, 
which puts the daily electricity cost under $1. b& 
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[EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
>: MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
> BRITAIN’S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by overloading
> our power network, senior Tories fear.

Typical right wing ignorance.

What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas stations
remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station consume  My
wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50 EV's.  Now
add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas stations, and
turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity consumed
pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it’s a WASH!

Tonight I'm going to drop by my neighborhood gas station and see if the
owner will tell me his electric bill and even better, if he will tell me how
many cars he serves.  I DOUBT he will tell me anything about the number of
cars and the amount of gas since he is in EXTREME competition with the
statinon across the road, but maybe he will reveal the electric bill.

But we need this number.  GO get your local number and lets compare notes.

Bob
-
A Cabinet row has broken out over the plug-in motors.

Eco-loving ministers at the Environment and Transport departments say
greener roads with millions of the electric vehicles is vital for clean air.

But the Department of Energy and Climate Change fear we don’t have enough
power for them.
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 4 Dec 2015 at 9:47, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> Typical right wing ignorance.

No politics please, just the facts.  Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Jukka Järvinen via EV
I saw one graph which stated the energy usage for oil refining to gasoline.
It's stated 23g of CO2 for each driven kilometer just for that part. With
our mix on electricity there was 19g of CO2 per kilometer on EV. From this
one could derive that producing gasoline solely is already consuming more
electricity what you use in the EV. So you do not need to even think about
the gas stations. We are better off if we just leave the gasoline
unrefined. That's already enough to compensate all EVs.
-Jukka


2015-12-04 17:21 GMT+02:00 Robert Bruninga via EV :

> > EVs will be very good for the grid…but not because we’ll be shutting down
> > gas stations.
>
> Agreed, completely.  But my point was that I have never seen anyone look at
> this point of view as to what electricity is saved by not moving so much
> gas
> around everywhere.  Though small, It’s a data point we need to include in
> our quiver and come up with some numbers...
>
> Bob
>
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Lee Hart via EV
I assume that most EVs in the UK would be charged overnight at home. 
Doesn't the UK have the same situation as the USA with there being a 
large surplus of power at night, and shortages only happen during the 
daytime? Widespread EV use is generally found to *help* the grid, by 
leveling power usage and reducing the need for peaking plants.


Also, I cannot imagine any scenario where a country would suddenly 
switch to EVs. It will take *decades* to slowly replace the existing 
ICEs. That gives the power companies plenty of time to plan and build 
for the change.


--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons. -- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Rush Dougherty via EV
Typical ignorance

Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com


> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
via EV
> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 10:46 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas
too!)
>
> On 4 Dec 2015 at 9:47, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
> > Typical right wing ignorance.
>
> No politics please, just the facts.  Thanks.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

2015-12-04 Thread Rush Dougherty via EV
Great website Peri, lots of information.

Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com

> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 8:09 AM
> To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping 
> gas 
> too!)
>
> That would be interesting information.  I'll take a stab at an answer, based 
> on 
> this EIA
> graph:
>
> http://www.eia.gov/beta/MER/index.cfm?tbl=T02.01#/?f=A=21
>
> Overall, it shows that commercial uses about 80% the amount of residential 
> (this 
> is a visual
> interpretation).  The figure, from EIA, for residential is 11MwH per year.  
> So, 
> let's say the
> average commercial location uses 8.8MwH per year.
>
> https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97=3
>
> Now for the EVs:  If the average EV uses 300wH = .3KwH (including 
> accessories, 
> charging
> losses, etc.) per mile and the average driver goes
> 2 miles per year, that's 6MwH of charging per year.
>
> So, based on averages and some EV assumptions, the gas station uses enough 
> electricy
> to charge somewhere between 1 and 2 EVs.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 04-Dec-15 6:47:23 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas 
> too!)
>
> >>: MP Amber Rudd sez the UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
> >>  BRITAIN'S electric car revolution could trigger blackouts by
> >>overloading
> >>  our power network, senior Tories fear.
> >
> >Typical right wing ignorance.
> >
> >What happens when 50% of cars are EV's.  Then only 50% of the gas
> >stations remain operating.  How much ELECTRICITY does a gas station
> >consume
> >My
> >wild a$$ guess is maybe the same as what it takes to charge 50 EV's.
> >Now
> >add up all the ELECTRIC savings by closing all those gas stations, and
> >turning off half the gasoline pipelines, and half of the gasoline
> >distribution system, and turning off HALF of all the electricity
> >consumed pumping gas ouit of the ground, etc, and I bet it's a WASH!
> >
> >Tonight I'm going to drop by my neighborhood gas station and see if the
> >owner will tell me his electric bill and even better, if he will tell
> >me how many cars he serves.  I DOUBT he will tell me anything about the
> >number of cars and the amount of gas since he is in EXTREME competition
> >with the statinon across the road, but maybe he will reveal the
> >electric bill.
> >
> >But we need this number.  GO get your local number and lets compare
> >notes.
> >
> >Bob
> >-
> >A Cabinet row has broken out over the plug-in motors.
> >
> >Eco-loving ministers at the Environment and Transport departments say
> >greener roads with millions of the electric vehicles is vital for clean
> >air.
> >
> >But the Department of Energy and Climate Change fear we don't have
> >enough power for them.
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