Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 06 Dec 2013, at 16:24, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: What I will say for you and Quentin is that for each individual convert, the previous state was disproved. Since, its subjective, why argue otherwise. If we want objective, then we must be able to measure. I agree, and that's why the th

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:04 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > 2013/12/6 Platonist Guitar Cowboy > >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2013/12/5 Jason Resch >>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

It's a fascinating concept. What a shame it can't happen in the real world. On 7 December 2013 07:42, John Clark wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:11 PM, LizR wrote: > > > Ah yes I've heard that the gravity at the event horizon can be as weak >> as you like with a suitably large hole - that y

Re: Dialogue between two believing scientists on how the universe is run

So these guys are equating God with the laws of physics, or maybe the origin of the laws of physics? On 7 December 2013 00:07, Roger Clough wrote: > > *Dialogue between two believing scientists on how the universe is run* > > JOHN-- >Funny thought [universal government, which is Plato's univers

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013/12/6 Platonist Guitar Cowboy > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > >> >> >> >> 2013/12/5 Jason Resch >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religio

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Richard: I learned my physics dogma at Harvard Grad School. Before that I was a mechanical engineer. Fine, but to 'think: what is a dogma' you learned as a li'l kid when you had to pray at bedtime. BTW (I never attended Harvard) did they teach you that 'physics' is a dogma? I try to identify 'phis

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 6 December 2013 06:58, Telmo Menezes wrote: > On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:42 AM, LizR wrote: > >> > > I think I love you. I've been saying this sort of thing for years, but > > rarely have I managed to do it so articulately. > > Awww.. thanks Liz! :) :-) Obviously it will have to be Platonic!

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > 2013/12/5 Jason Resch > >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >>> A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a >>> religion. >>> >>> >>> >> Some religions may be, that doesn't

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 7 December 2013 09:31, John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > > Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty >> on this list. >> > > I neither believe nor disbelieve in quantum immortality, I am not ashamed > to admit that the

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: > Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty > on this list. > I neither believe nor disbelieve in quantum immortality, I am not ashamed to admit that there are some things I just don't know. And that makes me m

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 06 Dec 2013, at 13:59, Richard Ruquist wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Bruno: Can you refute comp-I? In which theory? In comp, comp_i is a theorem, or meta-theorem. The amoeba

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:10 AM, LizR wrote: > On 6 December 2013 21:52, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> On 05 Dec 2013, at 20:05, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> >>> On 05 Dec 2013, at 17:20, Jason Resch wrote: >>> >>> So if you were t

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:57, meekerdb wrote: > > On 12/5/2013 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > In measure theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics) ) > just because there are an infinite number does not mean they are equa

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 12/6/2013 12:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:57, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In measure theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics) ) just because there are an infinit

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/6/2013 10:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: There is no "science". There are only field of inquiries, and humans having a scientific attitude. Scientific attitude is field independent. Research can be refrained only by abuse of authority. Genuine believer hides nothing and don't fear reason. T

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/6/2013 7:27 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux > wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux mailto:allco...@gmail.com>> wrote: A religion is

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/6/2013 7:21 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Quentin Anciaux > wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux mailto:allco...@gmail.com>> wrote: A religion is

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/6/2013 4:56 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Science cannot get rid of fundamental ontological and epistemological assumptions. What are these? Is Bruno getting rid of them? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscr

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/6/2013 4:46 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: So science is the art of discussing and questioning everything? Plus hypothesizing and testing. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop r

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/6/2013 3:59 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: The dogma that "science" (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial pos

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 06 Dec 2013, at 11:10, LizR wrote: On 6 December 2013 21:52, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 20:05, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 17:20, Jason Resch wrote: So if you were to spend a day in the box with Schrodi

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/6/2013 12:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:29, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 1:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 13:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED:

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Can you refute comp-I? > No I can not because of the IHA principle. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving e

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/6/2013 12:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux mailto:allco...@gmail.com>> wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not,

Re: doesn't dark matter falsify general relativity?

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 8:11 PM, LizR wrote: > Ah yes I've heard that the gravity at the event horizon can be as weak as > you like with a suitably large hole - that you might not even realise you'd > crossed it > Yes. > though surely you'd get some optical effects? > If you were falling back f

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 06 Dec 2013, at 11:07, LizR wrote: On 6 December 2013 21:45, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:57, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In measure theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics) ) just because there are an infinite number does

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 06 Dec 2013, at 13:52, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Science comes from latin and means knowledge... *that* *is* *the* error of the "latine". They "misunderstanding" of the greeks and indians. For the platonist, and the popperians notably, science is *only* beliefs, public theories, I wou

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013/12/6 Jason Resch > > > On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > > 2013/12/5 Jason Resch < jasonre...@gmail.com> > >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux < >> allco...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence scien

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013/12/6 Jason Resch > > > On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > > 2013/12/5 Jason Resch < jasonre...@gmail.com> > >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux < >> allco...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence scien

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:13 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Cou

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

What I will say for you and Quentin is that for each individual convert, the previous state was disproved. Since, its subjective, why argue otherwise. If we want objective, then we must be able to measure. Mitch -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list Sent: Fri,

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013/12/6 Richard Ruquist > On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > Well John not you nor I are believers in QI > but there seem to be plenty on this list. > > > Bruno: Can you refute comp-I? > > I can't, even without the step 8. > > Richard: I do not have to since it is a matter of

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013/12/6 Telmo Menezes > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux > wrote: > > Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and > questionned... > > That is philosophy. Science is more narrow -- and it should be. > Science is empiricism. It is restricted to the domains of kn

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013/12/6 Telmo Menezes > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux > wrote: > > Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and > questionned... > > That is philosophy. Science is more narrow -- and it should be. > Science is empiricism. Empiricism is part of science, but

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Bruno: Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Richard: I do not have to since it is a matter of belief. I do not believe that universes split

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... That is philosophy. Science is more narrow -- and it should be. Science is empiricism. It is restricted to the domains of knowledge where hypothesis can be rejecte

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Science comes from latin and means knowledge... if some wants to use science as a cover for something else, that doesn't redefine what it is... science is an attitude towards pursuit of knowledge... Quentin 2013/12/6 Alberto G. Corona > > > > 2013/12/6 Quentin Anciaux > >> Science has no dog

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013/12/6 Quentin Anciaux > Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and > questionned... > So science is the art of discussing and questioning everything? That is like saying nothing. In the other side, one thing is the activity of science, other the different schools of scie

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Science has no dogma, because everything can be discussed and questionned... On the contrary, religions *must* have some part that can't be discussed, you can't say you're catholic if you don't believe jesus was the son of god... you can't say you're buddhist and reject what the buddha said. So no

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

The dogma that "science" (in the very narrow sense used today for such world) is not dogma is the foundation stone of one of the most sucessful modern religions: scientism. That is wonderful since there is no knowledge possible without initial postulates or "dogmas" as you may call it. This erasu

Dialogue between two believing scientists on how the universe is run

Dialogue between two believing scientists on how the universe is run JOHN-- >Funny thought [universal government, which is Plato's universe] coming from a staunch Republican conservative govt minimizer. Perhaps an atheist is just someone who thinks something the size of the whole universe can

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

> > On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> The way I have for a time looked at is, is there are X instances that >> explain your current experience. Some may be "ordinary" while others might >> be, say a "dream". If in your experience, you encounter something you are >> unlike

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 6 December 2013 21:52, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 05 Dec 2013, at 20:05, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> On 05 Dec 2013, at 17:20, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> So if you were to spend a day in the box with Schrodinger's cat (each >> hour

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 6 December 2013 21:45, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:57, meekerdb wrote: > > On 12/5/2013 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > In measure theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics) ) > just because there are an infinite number does not mean they are equal. > Y

Re: Reality is not matter, it's Heidegger's dasein, which is Leibniz's monad

On 06 Dec 2013, at 02:21, LizR wrote: On 6 December 2013 14:15, Roger Clough wrote: Reality is not matter, it's Heidegger's dasein, which is Leibniz's monad Materialists spend much effort on trying to show that reality is simply physics. But the philosophy of Plato, Leibniz, Kant, and n

Re: Reality is not matter, it's Heidegger's dasein, which is Leibniz's monad

On 06 Dec 2013, at 02:15, Roger Clough wrote: Reality is not matter, it's Heidegger's dasein, which is Leibniz's monad Materialists spend much effort on trying to show that reality is simply physics. But the philosophy of Plato, Leibniz, Kant, and now Heidegger shows that materialism a

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 23:47, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Dec 2013, at 01:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias > wrote: Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and outside the fait

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 22:33, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 They are proven false. People leave religions all the time. Often for another one. If they were proven false, what's your explanation of why the catholic church still exists and has followers ? (or take your pick at any curr

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 21:56, Richard Ruquist wrote: Well John not you nor I are believers in QI but there seem to be plenty on this list. Can you refute comp-I? I can't, even without the step 8. Bruno On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:51 PM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Ric

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 20:23, Quentin Anciaux wrote: It isn't... QI is not worshipped, it is not a belief per se (you can entertain the idea for an argument or a theory that's all) and QI could in principle be proven false... A religion by being based on faith cannot. It is true that there m

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 05 Dec 2013, at 20:05, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Dec 2013, at 17:20, Jason Resch wrote: So if you were to spend a day in the box with Schrodinger's cat (each hour having a 50% chance of poisoning you), what would you predict e

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:57, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 2:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In measure theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics) ) just because there are an infinite number does not mean they are equal. Your measure each time you pull the trigger in the quantum

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:52, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:40 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 12:53 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:48 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:..

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:50, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But what has happened is that science has taken away more and more of their domain, It was in the domain at the start. Science is only a lamp, not a truth. It is a way to look at any domain. And the way

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:45, Richard Ruquist wrote: Who can tell me that quantum immortality is not religion. Well, it is a consequence of QM without collapse, or more simply, elementary arithmetic (and comp). But you need faith to believe in them and their meaning/models. BTW it is not

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:36, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 12:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Dec 2013, at 19:29, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Bruno Marchal wrot > I have already insist that God cannot be part of the explanation. We agree on this. Then I repeat

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal > > On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:29, meekerdb wrote: > > On 12/5/2013 1:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 04 Dec 2013, at 13:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous > religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:29, meekerdb wrote: On 12/5/2013 1:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 13:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I repeat the cult of men to men is the most primitive and dangerous religion. And RELIGION CAN NOT BE AVOIDED: you can not live without a form of religi

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

2013/12/6 Bruno Marchal > > On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > > 2013/12/5 Jason Resch > >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >>> A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a >>> religion. >>> >>> >>> >> Some religio

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:15, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. How do y

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:13, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/12/5 Jason Resch On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: A religion is based on dogma, science is not, hence science is not a religion. Some religions may be, that doesn't mean they all are, however. Could yo

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 19:11, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Dec 2013, at 16:24, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi Alberto, I agree with you that religion cannot be avoided in this sense. Here's a funny example: The Leipzig secular solstice celebr

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 18:38, Quentin Anciaux wrote: A religion is based on dogma, That is your dogma. Religion is based on experience and dialog for the founder of science and "modern theology", which is forbidden since about 1500 years. Bruno science is not, hence science is not a reli

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 18:36, Richard Ruquist wrote: I believe in science. That is my religion. Yes. Religion is no more than the idea that science put some light on *something* beyond ourself. As Einstein said : religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame. Bruno

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 18:35, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > you can not live without a form of religion Speak for yourself, I've been living without religion since i was 12. Without fairy tales. Nice for you. But religion and theology are us

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 05 Dec 2013, at 18:30, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > I repeat my question, why add useless wheels within wheels that explain nothing to otherwise nice theories? > To take into account the discovery already made by arithmetical machine that