Re: language, cloning and thought experiments

2009-03-06 Thread rmiller
At 07:31 AM 3/6/2009, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/6 Jack Mallah jackmal...@yahoo.com wrote: If you're not worried about the fair trade, then to be consistent you shouldn't be worried about the unfair trade either. In the fair trade, one version of you A disappears overnight, and

RE: Why I am I?

2009-12-05 Thread rmiller
From: John Mikes [mailto:jami...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:00 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why I am I? I admire this list. Somebody asks a silly question and 'we' write hourlong wisdom(s) upon it. After my deep liking of Stathis's what

RE: Many-worlds vs. Many-Minds

2010-02-21 Thread rmiller
To me, the Many-Minds interpretation requires significant changes in frames of reference. Suppose you view a particular world out of many as a 2-dimensional surface. Layers of surfaces comprise the local environment of a particular section of Many Worlds. Now think of a behavior pattern as a

RE: Many-worlds vs. Many-Minds

2010-02-22 Thread rmiller
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-l...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 2:20 PM To: Everything List Subject: Re: Many-worlds vs. Many-Minds On Feb 22, 8:12 pm, rmiller rmil...@legis.com wrote: From

RE: Many-worlds vs. Many-Minds

2010-02-22 Thread rmiller
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-l...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:43 PM To: Everything List Subject: Re: Many-worlds vs. Many-Minds Good point, but among the many fates there is always the

RE: A paper by Bas C. van Fraassen

2010-10-23 Thread rmiller
Good article and, as I see it, a barely-concealed challenge to actually come up with an experiment that will prove or disprove MWI. I’ve seen a few on the Los Alamos site from time to time, but nothing that wraps it up. And Young’s experiment shouldn’t count. From:

Re: Probability

2008-11-06 Thread rmiller
At 10:54 AM 11/6/2008, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2008, at 02:37, Thomas Laursen wrote: Hi everyone, I am a complete layman but still got the illusion that maybe one day I would be able to understand the probability part of MW if explained in a simple way. I know it's the most

experience = sum over histories?

2005-06-02 Thread rmiller
At 11:20 AM 6/2/2005, Hal Finney wrote: (snip) All these examples are meant to show that we act as though we care about giving good experiences even though we know they will be forgotten and not have lasting impact. If we extend that principle more generally, I think it follows that we should

Equivalence

2005-06-02 Thread rmiller
Equivalence If the individual exists simultaneously across a many-world manifold, then how can one even define a copy? If the words match at some points and differ at others, then the personality would at a maximum, do likewise---though this is not necessary---or, for some perhaps, not even

Re: Functionalism and People as Programs

2005-06-02 Thread rmiller
At 11:20 PM 6/2/2005, Lee Corbin wrote: Stephen writes I really do not want to be a stick-in-the-mud here, but what do we base the idea that copies could exist upon? It is a conjecture called functionalism (or one of its close variants). Functionalism, at least, in the social

Re: Equivalence

2005-06-03 Thread rmiller
and border regions of coherence. An optics experiment might be able to test this (if it hasn't been done already), and it might be experimentally testable as a psychology experiment. RM - Original Message - From: rmiller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stathis Papaioannou [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: Equivalence

2005-06-03 Thread rmiller
At 11:27 AM 6/3/2005, rmiller wrote: At 10:23 AM 6/3/2005, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear R., You make a very good point, one that I was hoping to communicate but failed. The notion of making copies is only coherent if and when we can compare the copied produce to each other. Failing

Re: Equivalence

2005-06-03 Thread rmiller
At 01:46 PM 6/3/2005, rmiller wrote: (snip) What do you mean by the qualia approach? Do you mean a sort of dualistic view of the relationship between mind and matter? From the discussion at http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/rhett.html it seems that Sarfatti suggests some combination of Bohm's

Re: Do things constantly get bigger?

2005-06-03 Thread rmiller
At 01:28 PM 6/3/2005, Norman Samish wrote: Hal, Your phrase . . . constantly get bigger reminds me of Mark McCutcheon's The Final Theory where he revives a notion that gravity is caused by the expansion of atoms. Norman That's the excuse I use. RM - Original Message - From: Hal

Re: Equivalence

2005-06-03 Thread rmiller
At 04:40 PM 6/3/2005, rmiller wrote: At 03:25 PM 6/3/2005, you wrote: (snip) I spoke with Schmidt in '96. He told me that it is very unlikely that causation can be reversed, but rather that the retropk results suggest many worlds. But that is presumably just his personal intuition

Re: Functionalism and People as Programs

2005-06-03 Thread rmiller
At 10:58 PM 6/3/2005, you wrote: R. Miller writes (quoting Lee Corbin): If someone can teleport me back and forth from work to home, I'll be happy to go along even if 1 atom in every thousand cells of mine doesn't get copied. Exposure to a nuclear detonation at 4000 yds typically kills

RE: Functionalism and People as Programs

2005-06-04 Thread rmiller
At 12:36 PM 6/4/2005, Lee Corbin wrote: R. Miller writes Lee Corbin wrote: Exposure to a nuclear detonation at 4000 yds typically kills about 1 in a million cells. When that happens, you die. I would suggest that is a bad metaphor. Well, my numbers, above, are *entirely* different

Hypothetical shaman's dilemma

2005-06-04 Thread rmiller
Here's a hypothetical situation. Your plane goes down in the wilds and you're rescued by a tribe indigenous to the area. You're wearing the latest clothes from the GAP, so the tribe elders decide you're a candidate for shaman apprentice--a position that comes with nice lodging and pays well

Another Tedious Hypothetical

2005-06-05 Thread rmiller
All, Another hypothetical. In 1939, let's say, a writer comes up with a sci-fi story, which is published the next year. It involves (let's say) a uranium bomb and a beryllium target in the Arizona desert that might blow up and cause problems for everyone. His main character is a fellow he

Another tedious hypothetical

2005-06-05 Thread rmiller
All, Another hypothetical. In 1939, let's say, a writer comes up with a sci-fi story, which is published the next year. It involves (let's say) a uranium bomb and a beryllium target in the Arizona desert that might blow up and cause problems for everyone. His main character is a fellow he

Re: Another Tedious Hypothetical

2005-06-05 Thread rmiller
At 12:31 PM 6/5/2005, rmiller wrote: A correction---the first nuclear test, was named, of course, Trinity, not The Manhattan Project. And the core of the device, which Oppenheimer called the gadget was about the size of a grapefruit. RM

RE: Another Tedious Hypothetical

2005-06-05 Thread rmiller
At 09:01 PM 6/5/2005, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: In order: 2,1,5,3,4. --Stathis Papaioannou Thanks to Lee and Stathis-- Anyone else? R.

Hypotheses

2005-06-05 Thread rmiller
Re the hypotheses---Social scientists, astronomers and CSI agents are the only ones I'm aware of who routinely evaluate events after the fact. The best, IMHO, such as the historian Toynbee, fit facts to a model. At it's worst, the model becomes the event and before long we're deep in

RE: Down with Scientism

2005-06-05 Thread rmiller
At 12:16 AM 6/6/2005, you wrote: I sometimes get into arguments with anti-science associates, who are into wholism, mysticism, spiritualism and so forth. They think that scientists are an elite with their own brand of 'ism (scientism, perhaps), which is no more valid than these other 'isms. I

RE: Another tedious hypothetical

2005-06-05 Thread rmiller
At 03:40 PM 6/5/2005, you wrote: RM writes (snip) Now, pick one: 1. All a Big Coincidence Proving Nothing (ABCPN) 2. The writer obviously was privy to state secrets and should have been arrested. 3. Suggests precognition of a very strange and weird sort. 4. Might fit a QM many worlds

RE: Hypotheses

2005-06-06 Thread rmiller
At 12:50 AM 6/6/2005, you wrote: A couple of hours ago, I was speaking to a young man who informed me that he can predict the future: he has visions or dreams, and they turn out to be true. I asked him for an example of this ability. He thought for a moment, explaining that there were

Re: Another tedious hypothetical

2005-06-06 Thread rmiller
At 03:01 PM 6/6/2005, Pete Carlton wrote: (snip) The point is, there are enough stories published in any year that it would be a trivial matter to find a few superficial resemblances between any event and a story that came before it. Let's look a little closer at the story in terms of

Re: Another tedious hypothetical

2005-06-06 Thread rmiller
At 03:01 PM 6/6/2005, Pete Carlton wrote: (snip) The point is, there are enough stories published in any year that it would be a trivial matter to find a few superficial resemblances between any event and a story that came before it. my second comment. . .if it's such a trivial matter, then

Re: Another tedious hypothetical

2005-06-06 Thread rmiller
At 03:58 PM 6/6/2005, you wrote: rmiller wrote: At 03:01 PM 6/6/2005, Pete Carlton wrote: (snip) The point is, there are enough stories published in any year that it would be a trivial matter to find a few superficial resemblances between any event and a story that came before it. Let's

Re: Another tedious hypothetical

2005-06-06 Thread rmiller
At 06:56 PM 6/6/2005, you wrote: Jesse has it right on here, and one can go even further in this vein. You are impressed by the relationship between one particular story and one particular event - but you hand-picked both the story and the event for discussion here because of their superficial

The tedious hypothesis and the reason for it. . .

2005-06-07 Thread rmiller
All, My tedious complaint about scientists prejudging issues prior to analysis (the facts don't warrant. . .etc) extends beyond the superficially weird (Heinlein's story) to the comparatively normal. While I'm not suggesting anyone who does this routinely is anything other than merely

Re: Another tedious hypothetical

2005-06-07 Thread rmiller
At 02:45 PM 6/7/2005, Jesse Mazer wrote: (snip) Of course in this example Feynman did not anticipate in advance what licence plate he'd see, but the kind of hindsight bias you are engaging in can be shown with another example. Suppose you pick 100 random words out of a dictionary, and then

Re: Another tedious hypothetical

2005-06-08 Thread rmiller
At 11:08 PM 6/8/2005, Jesse Mazer wrote: (snip) You should instead calculate the probability that a story would contain *any* combination of meaningful words associated with the Manhattan project. This is exactly analogous to the fact that in my example, you should have been calculating the

RE: Many Pasts? Not according to QM...

2005-06-11 Thread rmiller
At 12:43 PM 6/11/2005, Hal Finney wrote: Here's a little tongue-in-cheek rant... (snip) Yet how many philosophers are willing to seriously consider abandoning this arbitrary conditioning in deciding what is right and wrong? How many of us here are willing to take the logical path to its

Re: more torture

2005-06-13 Thread rmiller
At 06:00 AM 6/13/2005, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: I have been arguing in recent posts that the absolute measure of an observer moment (or observer, if you prefer) makes no possible difference at the first person level. A counterargument has been that, even if an observer cannot know how many

RE: more torture

2005-06-15 Thread rmiller
At 11:03 AM 6/15/2005, Jesse Mazer wrote: I wrote: No, I don't think they don't all have to have the same volume, Whoops, weird double negative here...that should read I don't think they all have to have the same volume. Jesse must have should have are required to have RM

Re: another puzzzle

2005-06-16 Thread rmiller
At 09:12 AM 6/16/2005, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: You find yourself in a locked room with no windows, and no memory of how you got there. The room is sparsely furnished: a chair, a desk, pen and paper, and in one corner a light. RM: You've just described me at work in my office. The light

Re: another puzzzle

2005-06-16 Thread rmiller
At 09:12 AM 6/16/2005, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: You find yourself in a locked room with no windows, and no memory of how you got there. \ (snip) The other state consists of 10^100 exact copies of you, their minds perfectly synchronised with your mind, each copy isolated from all the

Re: death

2005-06-18 Thread rmiller
At 10:55 AM 6/18/2005, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: (snip) The above mechanism would still work even if, as in my thought experiment, there were 10^100 exact copies running in lockstep and all but one died. Each one of the 10^100-1 copies would experience continuity of consciousness through

copy method important?

2005-06-18 Thread rmiller
All, Though we're not discussing entanglement per se, some of these examples surely meet the criteria. So, my thought question for the day: is the method of copying important? Example #1: we start with a single marble, A. Then, we magically create a copy, marble B--perfectly like

New Scientist

2005-06-24 Thread rmiller
All, New Scientist has a very interesting article this week about free will, reality and entanglement. Worth a look. Additionally, for the trivia fans among you, it seems one of the researchers quoted has clocked similarity effects associated with entanglement at something like (minimum)

Re: another puzzzle

2005-06-24 Thread rmiller
Jesse wrote In reality the molecules in your brain are constantly being recycled--if you believe that the changes that make up memories happen at the synapses, the article at http://www.sci-con.org/articles/20040601.html suggests all the molecules at the synapses are replaced in only 24

RE: singular versus plural

2005-06-24 Thread rmiller
At 06:44 AM 6/24/2005, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: (snip) So although it's not impossible that minds can somehow act as a group, that is something in need of *real* experimental evidence. Stacking a controversial theory on a weird idea balancing on an impossible situation is asking for

Re: Have all possible events occurred?

2005-06-26 Thread rmiller
At 10:22 AM 6/26/2005, Norman Samish wrote: Stathis Papaioannou writes: Of course you are right: there is no way to distinguish the original from the copy, given that the copying process works as intended. And if you believe that everything possible exists, then there will always be at least

Re: Hilgard's hidden observer

2005-06-26 Thread rmiller
Transform circuit.) By monitoring the wavelet coming from this area, one could determine the time of exit for an OOBE. Rich M Kindest regards, Stephen - Original Message - From: rmiller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Norman Samish [EMAIL PROTECTED]; everything-list@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, June 26

Re: Have all possible events occurred?

2005-06-26 Thread rmiller
At 11:07 PM 6/26/2005, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: R. Miller writes: Stathis Papaioannou writes: Of course you are right: there is no way to distinguish the original from the copy, given that the copying process works as intended. And if you believe that everything possible exists, then there

Re: Witnesses, Observer Moments and Memories of a Past

2005-06-28 Thread rmiller
At 10:31 PM 6/28/2005, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Lee, Are you familiar with any of the experiments that have been performed regarding quantum counterfactuals or null measurements? It turns out that the fact that some particular measure *was not made* counts just as much, and thus

3D Time

2005-07-18 Thread rmiller
All, You may find this interesting.http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:eVk8dYC9J44J:psroc.phys.ntu.edu.tw/cjp/v28/215.pdf+Lehto+physics+timehl=en Back in the early 1990s I corresponded with astronomer William Tifft at the U of Ariz. (Flagstaff). Seems he had possibly found evidence of

Re: 3D Time

2005-07-18 Thread rmiller
At 10:04 PM 7/18/2005, rmiller wrote: All, You may find this interesting.http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:eVk8dYC9J44J:psroc.phys.ntu.edu.tw/cjp/v28/215.pdf+Lehto+physics+timehl=en Back in the early 1990s I corresponded with astronomer William Tifft at the U of Ariz. (Flagstaff). Seems

Re: contention: theories are incompatible

2005-11-16 Thread rmiller
At 10:14 PM 11/16/2005, James N Rose wrote: An open hypothesis to list members: Conservation as a 'fundamental rule of condition' is incompatible and antithetical with any notions of many worlds. Either explicitly excludes and precludes the other; can't have both and retain a consistent

Re: Lobian Machine

2005-12-29 Thread rmiller
, specifically, proof of N requires knowledge of non-N. As I'm sure you know, sanity is a *legal*, rather than a mathematical term. While this sort of logical fuzziness is probably in keeping with these times, I doubt if it really applies to Godel's theorem. RMiller

Re: Technical paper on 3-dimensional time

2006-01-26 Thread rmiller
At 01:23 PM 1/23/2006, Johnathan Corgan wrote: Marc Geddes wrote: This is very recent (late 2005): http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0510010 I've read this and the author's prior two papers on multi-dimensional time. (snip) All, Finnish physicist Ari Lehto wrote about 3D time way back in

Quantum accident survivor

2003-10-30 Thread rmiller
It would seem that there are a finite number of ways to survive (or die in) any given car accident. It that's the case, the number of many world branches would be limited by this value. Taken longitudinally, it would seem that the architecture of the world lines of these and similar events

Re: Frank Flynn

2003-11-02 Thread rmiller
It's a chatterbot. Considering the poor syntax and misspelled words, it was probably designed by a Russian teen. RMiller

Re: An All/Nothing multiverse model

2004-11-16 Thread rmiller
This is starting to sound like discussion Hume must have had with himself. RM

Sociological approach

2005-05-22 Thread rmiller
. RMiller

Re: Sociological approach

2005-05-23 Thread rmiller
Patrick-- At 05:04 AM 5/23/2005, you wrote: On Sun, 22 May 2005, rmiller wrote: I'm approaching this as a sociologist with some physics background so I'm focusing on what the behavior system perceives (measures). If all possible worlds exist in a superpositional state, then the behavior

Re: Sociological approach

2005-05-23 Thread rmiller
At 07:29 PM 5/23/2005, you wrote: I think I can answer to the whole message by saying no way isn't always the way. The EPR paradox was supposed to prove quantum theory was wrong because it supposedly violated relativity. Alain Aspect proved that EPR actually worked as advertised, however it

RE: Sociological approach

2005-05-24 Thread rmiller
At 07:15 AM 5/24/2005, you wrote: Richard M writes I remember Plaga's original post on the Los Alamos archives way back when the server there was a 386. Most of the methods I've seen--Plaga's, Fred Alan Wolf's, and others involve tweaking the mortar, so to speak---prying apart the

Re: Plaga

2005-05-24 Thread rmiller
All, In my recent post I noted that Plaga's article has been on the xxx site since their server was a 386. I want to be clear that my comment was not meant as a dig at Plaga, nor his paper--just that it has been around since '95 and I can't recall anyone commenting (constructively) on it. As

Re: Plaga

2005-05-24 Thread rmiller
quantum communication should be impossible. Hal Finney I don't recall that discussion; may not have been a list subscriber at that time. At any rate, thanks for the info. RMiller

RE: Sociological approach, luck, and the WTC surge cloud

2005-05-25 Thread rmiller
at Rutgers. Bottom line: Many scientists fail to study things not because it's worth studying, but because no one drops a wad of $1000 bills on their desk beforehand---and agrees to build a new Faculty Lounge over the old tritium storage pit behind the maintenance shed. RMiller

Re: Plaga

2005-05-26 Thread rmiller
At 06:58 PM 5/24/2005, rmiller wrote: In a recent post (5/24) I wrote. . . I would suggest re Plaga or anyone else discussed here, it's not the time spent in a particular academic trench that makes the idea great, it's the quality of the insight. As luck, coincidence or a wide specious

Re: time sampling

2005-05-26 Thread rmiller
while, but this was the first I'd heard of consciousness as a wave function sampling various areas of block space. Anyone happen to know the source of this concept? RMiller