Re: life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
This is an effort to clarify what I have said in earlier posts. I
think it strengths the idea that we have a very substantial problem on
our hands.
[Terms not defined herein have the usual “Laws of Physics” definition]
1) Definition {1}: Energy (E) is the ability to subject a mass to a
force.
2) There are several types of energy currently known or proposed:
a) Mass itself via the conversion: [M <=> E/(c*c)]
b) Gravitational
c) Electromagnetic
d) Nuclear [Strong and Weak forces]
e) Dark Energy [proposed]
3) Definition {2}: Work (W) is the FLOW OF ENERGY amongst the various
types in (2) by means of a change in the spatial configuration,
dynamics and/or amount of mass in a physical system brought about by
an actual application of a force to a mass.
4) The exact original distribution of energy amongst the various types
can't be reestablished and the new configuration can't do as much work
as the prior configuration was capable of doing. [Less ability to
apply forces to masses] [See the Second Law of Thermodynamics]
5) Time is not a factor: Once a flow of energy is possible it will
take place immediately through an energy flow conduit.
6) If we look at the usual attempts to define "life", we find things
such as has a metabolism, grows larger [+ growth], procreates, etc.
These require a FLOW OF ENERGY (3) from an initial ability to do work
to a lower ability to do work (4) and through the life entity or its
associated instrumentality [Tools: such as a rock hammer, bow, car
engine or its piece of a vast food production and distribution system
etc.]. Think of the life entity as a pipe or "conduit" for this FLOW
OF ENERGY.]
7) Conclusion [1]: Therefore from (1) thru (6), wherever the
possibility of life exists [the proper ingredients are appropriately
present] life will appear as rapidly as possible. This is the
"origin" of life proposed herein.
8) All [more references needed] FLOWS OF ENERGY suffer from what are
known as "Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers" such as nuclear bonding
coefficient issues, spatial configuration, spin, other spatial statics
[location] and dynamics, ignition temperature requirements,
electromagnetic repulsion, etc. ["Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers" is
not my terminology - I think there was a twenty year or so old article
in Scientific American I am looking for and a quick Internet search
found a discussion of the repulsion hang-up in "Cosmology The Science
of the Universe" by Edward Robert Harrison. If energy flow hang-up
barriers did not exist then by (5) the universe would have become
incapable of supporting life very soon after it began. [Big Bang?]
9) Conclusion [2] Therefore "life" is just an energy flow conduit
necessarily drilling holes in energy flow hang-up barriers as per the
current ability of the particular life entity so as to enable even
more energy flow i.e. + growth, procreation, etc.
10) Definition {3} Operable work depletion: The depletion of the
ability to actually apply a force to a mass and as a result accomplish
the energy flow required by (3) with the consequences in (4) in a
region of the universe occupied by a particular biosphere. There may
be a great many biospheres in the universe.
11) Conclusion [3]: (9) and (10) combine into the "proposed Function
#1" [pF1] of life. ["Function" seems better than "Purpose".] In other
words life's function is to hasten the operable work depletion in its
region of the host universe.
12) Now add in evolution which is a random walk with a lower but no
upper bound, thus capable of producing ever more capable energy flow
hang-up busters.
-
i) Consciousness: Define it for now as the detection by a life entity
of the current system energy configuration both internal and external
to the life entity sufficient to ensure its adherence to its
"Actual Function" [AF] in its universe. In our universe it appears
that even single cells may have antenna to facilitate this detection.
See "ScienceNews", 11/03/12, page 16. I have proposed that life's AF
in this universe is the one I derived above. I see no reason how the
life’s Origin that I propose and pF1 conflict with such antenna on
individual cells.
ii) Freewill: pF1 precludes it because life must always follow its
function, so too for any Actual Function [AF] that differs from pF1.
iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of an
extinction event [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because pF1
would be the only priority for life. We may not be extinguished as a
species but we can't self exclude ourselves from the extinction
because of pF1. There have been a number of extinction events.
However, evolution has used some of these to produce new life entities
with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the
extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves from the K-Pg
event.
iv) Current Economic Conditions: The news in this area has been
rather bad for some time. The most frequently offered solution h
RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
I have tried to post this several times. It appears I am again having issues with my email software. I am sorry if it eventually posts multiple times. Hi John and Russell: As far as I know all the "Laws of Physics" are based on observation and are absent closed form proof. Given the data I have seen, resource consumption and real GDP follow similar size trajectories. Twenty or more years ago I played with ideas on how they [using quality of life experience for which real GDP would be a reasonable proxy] might be decoupled to the benefit of species survival . This included consideration of what I now call pAP1. Recently I had reason to resurrect these old unpublished writings. Review of these writings, conversations with associates and the vantage point of 20 more years of observation have caused me to believe that pAP1 has a global and unbreakable hold on human behavior. I believe even outliers such as survivalists if subjected to accurate energy flow analysis would be shown to be fully in its grasp. The consequences of this would be rather unpleasant as I indicated and Russell appears to support. Thus my recent posts looking for a falsification of pAP1. [I am currently rewriting the early post to improve clarity.] John: I think my response to Stephen re his "finite resolution." responds to your post also. Hal AFAIK, there is no requirement for resource consumption to be proportional to GDP. So it should be possible to save the economy without wrecking the planet. But yes, ultimately life will have to move on from H. Sapiens... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi John, I am quite aware of your views, which you descibe below, but I fail to see how it applies to the conversation Hal & I were having on the impacts of continuous growth in a bounded world. On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:00:42PM -0500, John Mikes wrote: > Hal and Russell: > > my agnostic thinking prevents me from speculating about the details > how the "world" (everything) might have been *before* OUR WORLD (=this > universe) arose as well as those details that might come up *after *Homo > Sapiens is gone. Our experienced figments are valid only temporarily and > even time may be restricted to the views while we 'observe' the world. > Even the "contemporaneous" world-VIEW is restricted to that segment of the > totality (everything) that transpired into our scientific(?) *inventory of > the knowables*, our 'model' of the infinite world: into as much as we can > observe of it. > JohnM > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 7:32 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 03:55:04PM -0500, Hal Ruhl wrote: > > > > > > Iiia) Current Economic Conditions: The news in this area has been rather > > > bad for some time. The most frequently offered solution has been that > > > national economies and thus the world economy must grow real GDP. In > > fact > > > grow it exponentially or even super exponentially. Since the planet has > > > only a finite supply of energy - see prior posts under #2 for energy > > types - > > > a new trick has to be learned. However, the offered solution is in > > > compliance with pAP1. Thus if pAP1 is correct then no other solution > > can be > > > offered. In this case weep for the children. I hope someone can falsify > > > pAP1. > > > > > > > AFAIK, there is no requirement for resource consumption to be > > proportional to GDP. So it should be possible to save the economy > > without wrecking the planet. > > > > But yes, ultimately life will have to move on from H. Sapiens... > > > > Cheers > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > > Principal, High Performance Coders > > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 03:55:04PM -0500, Hal Ruhl wrote: > > Iiia) Current Economic Conditions: The news in this area has been rather > bad for some time. The most frequently offered solution has been that > national economies and thus the world economy must grow real GDP. In fact > grow it exponentially or even super exponentially. Since the planet has > only a finite supply of energy - see prior posts under #2 for energy types - > a new trick has to be learned. However, the offered solution is in > compliance with pAP1. Thus if pAP1 is correct then no other solution can be > offered. In this case weep for the children. I hope someone can falsify > pAP1. > AFAIK, there is no requirement for resource consumption to be proportional to GDP. So it should be possible to save the economy without wrecking the planet. But yes, ultimately life will have to move on from H. Sapiens... Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Everyone: At this time I would like to go a bit further re item iii: iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of an extinction event [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because pAP1 would be the only priority for life. We may not be extinguished as a species but we can't exclude ourselves from the extinction because of pAP1 [fixed typo]. There have been a number of extinction events. However, evolution has used some of these to produce new life entities with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves from the K-Pg event. Iiia) Current Economic Conditions: The news in this area has been rather bad for some time. The most frequently offered solution has been that national economies and thus the world economy must grow real GDP. In fact grow it exponentially or even super exponentially. Since the planet has only a finite supply of energy - see prior posts under #2 for energy types - a new trick has to be learned. However, the offered solution is in compliance with pAP1. Thus if pAP1 is correct then no other solution can be offered. In this case weep for the children. I hope someone can falsify pAP1. Hal -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Stepen: Interesting post. I indicated in the initiating posts that life should rapidly appear where the conditions supporting it are found. I suspect that in most cases the sphere of influence for a particular instance of a biosphere is small when compared to the size of the universe. Therefore I propose to change "heat death" to "operative heat death" re your "finite resolving power" for observers. This should allow for the possibility of an "open" universe. I am also considering changing "purpose of life" to "function of life". Thanks Hal Dear Hal, What consequences would there be is the Universe (all that exists) is truly infinite and eternal (no absolute beginning or end) and what we observe as a finite (spatially and temporally) universe is just the result of our finite ability to compute the contents of our observations? It is helpful to remember that thermodynamic arguments, such as the heat engine concept, apply only to closed systems. It is better to assume open systems and finite resolving power (or equivalently finite computational abilities) for observers. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: RE: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Roger: I try to practice reasonable bandwidth conservation. Your comment "You say life hastens death." which is in my response seemed sufficient for the discussion. If you need something from one of your prior posts and you do not have it just cut and paste it from the Google archive. https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/everything-list Hal -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 8:42 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: RE: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum Hi Hal Ruhl Sorry, I can not respond as you clipped off my previous post containing said metaphors. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/9/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-08, 12:13:48 Subject: RE: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum Hi Roger: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 6:09 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum Hi Hal, Just look at the metaphors you use to see that your idea below is wrong. You say that life hastens death. Of course it does - all day every day in . Animals are parasitic on photosynthesis and frequently each other as well as the energy hang-up barriers they must bust. Hal -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: RE: RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Hal Ruhl The most important feature of a theory is that it is worthless unless you can communicate it to the world. Maybe I'm wrong. I can't understand your theory, perhaps others can. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/9/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-09, 10:43:51 Subject: RE: RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum Hi Roger: Roger: "Talk to Dawkins. The purpose of the gene is to create more genes. So the purpose of life (at a minimum) is to create more life." Response from Hal: No. Life creates more life in compliance with pAP1. A reasonable result is one heck of a mass extinction. Repeat until there are no more operative energy hang-up barriers. Roger: "You may notice that earth was once lifeless but its surface become alive with plants, fishes..." SNIP Response from Hal: You help make my point. Hal -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Roger: Roger: "Talk to Dawkins. The purpose of the gene is to create more genes. So the purpose of life (at a minimum) is to create more life." Response from Hal: No. Life creates more life in compliance with pAP1. A reasonable result is one heck of a mass extinction. Repeat until there are no more operative energy hang-up barriers. Roger: "You may notice that earth was once lifeless but its surface become alive with plants, fishes..." SNIP Response from Hal: You help make my point. Hal -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: RE: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Hal Ruhl Sorry, I can not respond as you clipped off my previous post containing said metaphors. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/9/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-08, 12:13:48 Subject: RE: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum Hi Roger: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 6:09 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum Hi Hal, Just look at the metaphors you use to see that your idea below is wrong. You say that life hastens death. Of course it does - all day every day in . Animals are parasitic on photosynthesis and frequently each other as well as the energy hang-up barriers they must bust. Hal -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Hal Ruhl Talk to Dawkins. The purpose of the gene is to create more genes. So the purpose of life (at a minimum) is to create more life. You may notice that earth was once lifeless but its surface become alive with plants, fishes and the other stuff from Genesis 1. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/9/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-08, 12:02:17 Subject: RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum Hi Stephen: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 6:56 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 11/7/2012 11:40 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: > Hi Stephen: > > pAP1 is #8 of the discussion initiating posts > > 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as > many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the > particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its > energy flow conduit character. This is the "purpose" of life herein. > In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. > > Hal Dear Hal, Is "heat death" truly real or a necessary concept? Well the term has been around for awhile but I have not seen a proposed end state or series of end states of the universe in which the ability to run a heat engine does not become zero or asymptotically approach it. Hal > > > -Original Message- > From: everything-list@googlegroups.com > [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:07 AM > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum > > On 11/7/2012 9:38 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: >> Hi Everyone: >> >> This may show up more than once as a few others did. In recent days >> I have had issues with my internet connection. It has been 16 hours >> since I sent this the second time. This time I tried sending it >> again and then again as plain text. Very sorry if my troubles cause >> some > clutter. >> At this time I would like to go a bit further re item iii: >> >> iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of an >> extinction event [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because pAP1 >> would be the only priority for life. We may not be extinguished as a >> species but we can't exclude ourselves from the extinction because of >> pAP1 [fixed typo]. There have been a number of extinction events. >> However, evolution has used some of these to produce new life >> entities with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the >> extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves from the K-Pg > event. >> iiia) Current Economic Conditions: The news in this area has been >> rather bad for some time. The most frequently offered solution has >> been that national economies and thus the world economy must grow >> real GDP. In fact grow it exponentially or even super exponentially. >> Since the planet has only a finite supply of energy - see prior posts >> under #2 for energy types - a new trick has to be learned. However, >> the offered solution is in compliance with pAP1. Thus if pAP1 is >> correct then no other solution [new trick] can be offered. In this >> case weep for the children. I hope someone can falsify pAP1 and >> anything > near it. >> >> Hal >> > Dear Hal, > > Could you restate pAP1? > > > -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
On 11/8/2012 12:02 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Stephen: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 6:56 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 11/7/2012 11:40 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Stephen: pAP1 is #8 of the discussion initiating posts 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character. This is the "purpose" of life herein. In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. Hal Dear Hal, Is "heat death" truly real or a necessary concept? Well the term has been around for awhile but I have not seen a proposed end state or series of end states of the universe in which the ability to run a heat engine does not become zero or asymptotically approach it. Hal Dear Hal, What consequences would there be is the Universe (all that exists) is truly infinite and eternal (no absolute beginning or end) and what we observe as a finite (spatially and temporally) universe is just the result of our finite ability to compute the contents of our observations? It is helpful to remember that thermodynamic arguments, such as the heat engine concept, apply only to closed systems. It is better to assume open systems and finite resolving power (or equivalently finite computational abilities) for observers. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Roger: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 6:09 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum Hi Hal, Just look at the metaphors you use to see that your idea below is wrong. You say that life hastens death. Of course it does - all day every day in . Animals are parasitic on photosynthesis and frequently each other as well as the energy hang-up barriers they must bust. Hal -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Stephen: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 6:56 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 11/7/2012 11:40 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: > Hi Stephen: > > pAP1 is #8 of the discussion initiating posts > > 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as > many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the > particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its > energy flow conduit character. This is the "purpose" of life herein. > In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. > > Hal Dear Hal, Is "heat death" truly real or a necessary concept? Well the term has been around for awhile but I have not seen a proposed end state or series of end states of the universe in which the ability to run a heat engine does not become zero or asymptotically approach it. Hal > > > -Original Message- > From: everything-list@googlegroups.com > [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:07 AM > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum > > On 11/7/2012 9:38 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: >> Hi Everyone: >> >> This may show up more than once as a few others did. In recent days >> I have had issues with my internet connection. It has been 16 hours >> since I sent this the second time. This time I tried sending it >> again and then again as plain text. Very sorry if my troubles cause >> some > clutter. >> At this time I would like to go a bit further re item iii: >> >> iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of an >> extinction event [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because pAP1 >> would be the only priority for life. We may not be extinguished as a >> species but we can't exclude ourselves from the extinction because of >> pAP1 [fixed typo]. There have been a number of extinction events. >> However, evolution has used some of these to produce new life >> entities with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the >> extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves from the K-Pg > event. >> iiia) Current Economic Conditions: The news in this area has been >> rather bad for some time. The most frequently offered solution has >> been that national economies and thus the world economy must grow >> real GDP. In fact grow it exponentially or even super exponentially. >> Since the planet has only a finite supply of energy - see prior posts >> under #2 for energy types - a new trick has to be learned. However, >> the offered solution is in compliance with pAP1. Thus if pAP1 is >> correct then no other solution [new trick] can be offered. In this >> case weep for the children. I hope someone can falsify pAP1 and >> anything > near it. >> >> Hal >> > Dear Hal, > > Could you restate pAP1? > > > -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Hal, Just look at the metaphors you use to see that your idea below is wrong. You say that life hastens death. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/8/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 18:56:00 Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 11/7/2012 11:40 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: > Hi Stephen: > > pAP1 is #8 of the discussion initiating posts > > 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as many > holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular > life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow > conduit character. This is the "purpose" of life herein. In other words > life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. > > Hal Dear Hal, Is "heat death" truly real or a necessary concept? > > > -Original Message- > From: everything-list@googlegroups.com > [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:07 AM > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum > > On 11/7/2012 9:38 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: >> Hi Everyone: >> >> This may show up more than once as a few others did. In recent days I >> have had issues with my internet connection. It has been 16 hours >> since I sent this the second time. This time I tried sending it again >> and then again as plain text. Very sorry if my troubles cause some > clutter. >> At this time I would like to go a bit further re item iii: >> >> iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of an >> extinction event [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because pAP1 >> would be the only priority for life. We may not be extinguished as a >> species but we can't exclude ourselves from the extinction because of >> pAP1 [fixed typo]. There have been a number of extinction events. >> However, evolution has used some of these to produce new life entities >> with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the >> extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves from the K-Pg > event. >> iiia) Current Economic Conditions: The news in this area has been >> rather bad for some time. The most frequently offered solution has >> been that national economies and thus the world economy must grow real >> GDP. In fact grow it exponentially or even super exponentially. >> Since the planet has only a finite supply of energy - see prior posts >> under #2 for energy types - a new trick has to be learned. However, >> the offered solution is in compliance with pAP1. Thus if pAP1 is >> correct then no other solution [new trick] can be offered. In this >> case weep for the children. I hope someone can falsify pAP1 and anything > near it. >> >> Hal >> > Dear Hal, > > Could you restate pAP1? > > > -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
On 11/7/2012 11:40 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Stephen: pAP1 is #8 of the discussion initiating posts 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character. This is the "purpose" of life herein. In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. Hal Dear Hal, Is "heat death" truly real or a necessary concept? -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:07 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 11/7/2012 9:38 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Everyone: This may show up more than once as a few others did. In recent days I have had issues with my internet connection. It has been 16 hours since I sent this the second time. This time I tried sending it again and then again as plain text. Very sorry if my troubles cause some clutter. At this time I would like to go a bit further re item iii: iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of an extinction event [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because pAP1 would be the only priority for life. We may not be extinguished as a species but we can't exclude ourselves from the extinction because of pAP1 [fixed typo]. There have been a number of extinction events. However, evolution has used some of these to produce new life entities with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves from the K-Pg event. iiia) Current Economic Conditions: The news in this area has been rather bad for some time. The most frequently offered solution has been that national economies and thus the world economy must grow real GDP. In fact grow it exponentially or even super exponentially. Since the planet has only a finite supply of energy - see prior posts under #2 for energy types - a new trick has to be learned. However, the offered solution is in compliance with pAP1. Thus if pAP1 is correct then no other solution [new trick] can be offered. In this case weep for the children. I hope someone can falsify pAP1 and anything near it. Hal Dear Hal, Could you restate pAP1? -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Stephen: pAP1 is #8 of the discussion initiating posts 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character. This is the "purpose" of life herein. In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. Hal -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:07 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 11/7/2012 9:38 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: > Hi Everyone: > > This may show up more than once as a few others did. In recent days I > have had issues with my internet connection. It has been 16 hours > since I sent this the second time. This time I tried sending it again > and then again as plain text. Very sorry if my troubles cause some clutter. > > At this time I would like to go a bit further re item iii: > > iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of an > extinction event [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because pAP1 > would be the only priority for life. We may not be extinguished as a > species but we can't exclude ourselves from the extinction because of > pAP1 [fixed typo]. There have been a number of extinction events. > However, evolution has used some of these to produce new life entities > with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the > extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves from the K-Pg event. > > iiia) Current Economic Conditions: The news in this area has been > rather bad for some time. The most frequently offered solution has > been that national economies and thus the world economy must grow real > GDP. In fact grow it exponentially or even super exponentially. > Since the planet has only a finite supply of energy - see prior posts > under #2 for energy types - a new trick has to be learned. However, > the offered solution is in compliance with pAP1. Thus if pAP1 is > correct then no other solution [new trick] can be offered. In this > case weep for the children. I hope someone can falsify pAP1 and anything near it. > > > Hal > Dear Hal, Could you restate pAP1? -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
On 11/7/2012 9:38 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Everyone: This may show up more than once as a few others did. In recent days I have had issues with my internet connection. It has been 16 hours since I sent this the second time. This time I tried sending it again and then again as plain text. Very sorry if my troubles cause some clutter. At this time I would like to go a bit further re item iii: iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of an extinction event [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because pAP1 would be the only priority for life. We may not be extinguished as a species but we can't exclude ourselves from the extinction because of pAP1 [fixed typo]. There have been a number of extinction events. However, evolution has used some of these to produce new life entities with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves from the K-Pg event. iiia) Current Economic Conditions: The news in this area has been rather bad for some time. The most frequently offered solution has been that national economies and thus the world economy must grow real GDP. In fact grow it exponentially or even super exponentially. Since the planet has only a finite supply of energy - see prior posts under #2 for energy types - a new trick has to be learned. However, the offered solution is in compliance with pAP1. Thus if pAP1 is correct then no other solution [new trick] can be offered. In this case weep for the children. I hope someone can falsify pAP1 and anything near it. Hal Dear Hal, Could you restate pAP1? -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Everyone: This may show up more than once as a few others did. In recent days I have had issues with my internet connection. It has been 16 hours since I sent this the second time. This time I tried sending it again and then again as plain text. Very sorry if my troubles cause some clutter. At this time I would like to go a bit further re item iii: iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of an extinction event [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because pAP1 would be the only priority for life. We may not be extinguished as a species but we can't exclude ourselves from the extinction because of pAP1 [fixed typo]. There have been a number of extinction events. However, evolution has used some of these to produce new life entities with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves from the K-Pg event. iiia) Current Economic Conditions: The news in this area has been rather bad for some time. The most frequently offered solution has been that national economies and thus the world economy must grow real GDP. In fact grow it exponentially or even super exponentially. Since the planet has only a finite supply of energy - see prior posts under #2 for energy types - a new trick has to be learned. However, the offered solution is in compliance with pAP1. Thus if pAP1 is correct then no other solution [new trick] can be offered. In this case weep for the children. I hope someone can falsify pAP1 and anything near it. Hal -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Everyone: Here are some expansions on my prior post regarding the following three topics: i) Consciousness: Define it for now as the detection by a life entity of the current system energy configuration both internal and external to the life entity sufficient to ensure its adherence to its "Actual Purpose" [AP] in its universe. In our universe it appears that even single cells may have antenna to facilitate this detection. See "ScienceNews", 11/03/12, page 16. I have proposed that life's AP in this universe is the one I derived in earlier posts. Call this "proposed Actual Purpose 1" [pAP1]. I see no reason how the life's Origin that I propose and pAP1 conflict with such antenna on individual cells. ii) Freewill: pAP1 precludes it because life must always follow its purpose, so too for any AP that differs from pAP1. iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of an extinction event [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because pAP1 would be the only priority for life. We may not be extinguished as a species but we can't exclude ourselves from the extinction because of pPA1. There have been a number of extinction events. However, evolution has used some of these to produce new life entities with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves from the K-Pg event. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Hal Ruhl i) Is OK, except Cs isn't distributed, it's beyond spacetime, and so it's just "there". ii) Is misleading, because an entity cannot move or do as it desires without some degree of free will. If no free will, they're robots. If so, then who designed those robots and controls them ? The term "self-determination" includes all of the constraints you might imagine, at least those within an entities' skin, for that is what constitutes the self. iii) Is a political, not a scientific statement. Liberals have for centuries forecast disaster, as it is a strong motivation for accepting their own utopian diasters instead. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-04, 15:39:44 Subject: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum Hi Everyone: I would now like to expand the discussion re the two current conclusions in the slightly edited version of the first post [below] as follows: i) Consciousness: The origin and purpose of life herein leads me to believe that consciousness is distributed across life entities in accordance with their ability to act in accord with it. Even single celled entities would have a non zero degree of it to properly enable life's purpose. ii) Freewill: Life's purpose as given herein precludes it. iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of a mass extinction [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because implementation of the purpose as given herein is the only priority for life. We can't exclude ourselves from the extinction. [There have been a number of mass extinctions but evolution has sometimes used these to produce new life entities with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves. Edited first post 1) Definition (1): Energy (E) is the ability to subject a mass to a force. 2) There are several types of energy currently known or proposed: a) Mass itself via the conversion: [M <=> E/(c*c)] b) Gravitational c) Electromagnetic d) Nuclear [Strong and Weak forces] e) Dark Energy 3) Definition (2): Work (W) is the flow of energy amongst the various types by means of a change in the spatial configuration, dynamics and/or amount of mass in a system brought about by an actual application of a force to a mass. 4) The exact original distribution of energy amongst the various types can't be reestablished and the new configuration can't do as much work as the prior configuration was capable of doing. [Second Law of Thermodynamics] 5) Time is not a factor: Once a flow of energy is possible it will take place immediately. 6) Conclusion (1): Since life is an energy flow conduit, wherever the possibility of life exists life will appear as rapidly as possible. This is the "origin" of life herein. [If we look at the usual attempts to define "life", we find things such as grow, procreate,[Thanks John] etc. These require a flow of energy from an initial ability to do work to a lower ability to do work and through the life entity. Think of the life entity as a pipe or "conduit" for this flow.] 7) Some energy flows are prevented by what are known [in my memory] as "Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers" such as nuclear bonding coefficient issues, spatial configuration, spin, other spatial dynamics, ignition temperature requirements, electromagnetic repulsion, etc. ["Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers" is not my terminology - I think there was a twenty year or so old article in Scientific American I am looking for and a quick Internet search found a discussion of the repulsion hang-up in "Cosmology The Science of the Universe" by Edward Robert Harrison. [Therefore "life" herein is just an energy flow conduit drilling holes in energy flow hang-up barriers as rapidly as possible for the particular entity to enable even more such energy flow.] 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character. This is the "purpose" of life herein. In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. 9) Now add in evolution which is a random walk with a lower but no upper bound. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscrib
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Everyone: I would now like to expand the discussion re the two current conclusions in the slightly edited version of the first post [below] as follows: i) Consciousness: The origin and purpose of life herein leads me to believe that consciousness is distributed across life entities in accordance with their ability to act in accord with it. Even single celled entities would have a non zero degree of it to properly enable life's purpose. ii) Freewill: Life's purpose as given herein precludes it. iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of a mass extinction [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because implementation of the purpose as given herein is the only priority for life. We can't exclude ourselves from the extinction. [There have been a number of mass extinctions but evolution has sometimes used these to produce new life entities with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves. Edited first post 1) Definition (1): Energy (E) is the ability to subject a mass to a force. 2) There are several types of energy currently known or proposed: a) Mass itself via the conversion: [M <=> E/(c*c)] b) Gravitational c) Electromagnetic d) Nuclear [Strong and Weak forces] e) Dark Energy 3) Definition (2): Work (W) is the flow of energy amongst the various types by means of a change in the spatial configuration, dynamics and/or amount of mass in a system brought about by an actual application of a force to a mass. 4) The exact original distribution of energy amongst the various types can't be reestablished and the new configuration can't do as much work as the prior configuration was capable of doing. [Second Law of Thermodynamics] 5) Time is not a factor: Once a flow of energy is possible it will take place immediately. 6) Conclusion (1): Since life is an energy flow conduit, wherever the possibility of life exists life will appear as rapidly as possible. This is the "origin" of life herein. [If we look at the usual attempts to define "life", we find things such as grow, procreate,[Thanks John] etc. These require a flow of energy from an initial ability to do work to a lower ability to do work and through the life entity. Think of the life entity as a pipe or "conduit" for this flow.] 7) Some energy flows are prevented by what are known [in my memory] as "Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers" such as nuclear bonding coefficient issues, spatial configuration, spin, other spatial dynamics, ignition temperature requirements, electromagnetic repulsion, etc. ["Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers" is not my terminology - I think there was a twenty year or so old article in Scientific American I am looking for and a quick Internet search found a discussion of the repulsion hang-up in "Cosmology The Science of the Universe" by Edward Robert Harrison. [Therefore "life" herein is just an energy flow conduit drilling holes in energy flow hang-up barriers as rapidly as possible for the particular entity to enable even more such energy flow.] 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character. This is the "purpose" of life herein. In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. 9) Now add in evolution which is a random walk with a lower but no upper bound. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Stephen and John: I believe I absorbed the "evolution is a random walk with a lower bound but no upper bound" from my readings of Stephen Gould. I have no memory of where and when and the memory may be false. In any event I do not see that it excludes selection. I think there was an illustration something like: A staggering drunk is walking down a city street on a sidewalk bounded on one side by a solid row of locked buildings and on the other by the street. Given a long enough walk the drunk will always end up in the gutter - the "gutter" in this case representing either a new player on the field or a pruning. This discussion is important to where I want to take my posts. Thanks Hal -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 12:09 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 11/4/2012 12:09 AM, John Mikes wrote: > snip > ## to 9 I have objections. I cannot imagine (maybe my mistake) > evolution without a goal, a final aim which would require an > intelligent design to approach it. (I may have one: the > re-distribution into the Plenitude). My way (as of yesterday) is the > ease-and-potential path of changes allowed by the available > configurations (relations) when a change occurs. > NO RANDOM, it would make a grits out of nature. Even authors with high > preference on random treatises withdrew into a "conditional random" > when I attacked the term. Conditionality kills random of course. > So in my terms: NO random mutations, (especially not FOR survival) I > call 'evolution' the HISTORY of our universe. The unsuccessful mutants > die, the successful go on - science detects them in its snapshots > taken and explains them religiously. (Survival of the fittest - the > Dinosaur was fit when it got extinct by the change in circumstances). > I accept ONE random (in mathematical puzzles): "take ANY number..." > > Your "lower, but not upper bound" is highly appreciable. Thanks. > > I apologize for my haphazard remarks upon prima vista reading. The > list-discussion is not a well-founded scientific discourse upon new > ideas. Most people tell what they formulated over years. A reply is > many times instantaneous. > snip > [HR] 9) Now add in evolution which is a random walk with a lower but > no upper bound. snip Dear John, I wanted to make a remark on just this part of your post as I need to ask a question. Why is the Selective aspect of evolution almost completely ignored? It is easy to talk about mutations and models of them, such as random walks - which I favor!, but what about the selection aspect? what about how the Tree of Life is almost constantly pruned by events that kill off or otherwise blunt growth in some directions as opposed to others? My question to you is specific. How do polymers mold themselves to local parameters that influence their molecules? What determines their shape? Is there a deterministic explanation of the shape of a polymer? Would this explanation work for, say, DNA or peptite molecules? -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
On 11/4/2012 12:09 AM, John Mikes wrote: snip ## to 9 I have objections. I cannot imagine (maybe my mistake) evolution without a goal, a final aim which would require an intelligent design to approach it. (I may have one: the re-distribution into the Plenitude). My way (as of yesterday) is the ease-and-potential path of changes allowed by the available configurations (relations) when a change occurs. NO RANDOM, it would make a grits out of nature. Even authors with high preference on random treatises withdrew into a "conditional random" when I attacked the term. Conditionality kills random of course. So in my terms: NO random mutations, (especially not FOR survival) I call 'evolution' the HISTORY of our universe. The unsuccessful mutants die, the successful go on - science detects them in its snapshots taken and explains them religiously. (Survival of the fittest - the Dinosaur was fit when it got extinct by the change in circumstances). I accept ONE random (in mathematical puzzles): "take ANY number..." Your "lower, but not upper bound" is highly appreciable. Thanks. I apologize for my haphazard remarks upon prima vista reading. The list-discussion is not a well-founded scientific discourse upon new ideas. Most people tell what they formulated over years. A reply is many times instantaneous. snip [HR] 9) Now add in evolution which is a random walk with a lower but no upper bound. snip Dear John, I wanted to make a remark on just this part of your post as I need to ask a question. Why is the Selective aspect of evolution almost completely ignored? It is easy to talk about mutations and models of them, such as random walks - which I favor!, but what about the selection aspect? what about how the Tree of Life is almost constantly pruned by events that kill off or otherwise blunt growth in some directions as opposed to others? My question to you is specific. How do polymers mold themselves to local parameters that influence their molecules? What determines their shape? Is there a deterministic explanation of the shape of a polymer? Would this explanation work for, say, DNA or peptite molecules? -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi, Hal, and thanks for your reply. I don't feel up to discuss YOUR ideas: as I touched I WAS a polymer(chem) scientist as long as I lost my faith in the conventional views (giving place to agnosticism upon the infinite complexity I call "everything". So consider my responses 'second rate' - ideas you may or may not consider indeed. ## Ability: seems to me you value the potential energy higher than the rest. ##Mass - I am lost. (massive as well). When I tried to "go down" to the bases of it, I lost all massiveness: mass less concepts with physical items attached. All in our conventional science terms: human thinking within the model we actually carry (different at all times). ##Dark energy (matter?) - thanks for not crucifying me for such un-science. ## - "E"??? do you have any idea how to identify electricity? (This is not my vendetta against it for the 5 days this week when we missed it to Sandy). Luckily we got it back but I have bad vibes. ## We NEED Strong and weak forces to maintain our figment of matter. So we created them and calculate them to satisfy what we think. I don't deny an atomic bomb explosion, but the explanation is premature. We have a fantastic technology - ALMOST good (except for some unexpected mishaps, accidents, sicknesses, wars, imperfections.) ##Your Conclusions to 6 are perfectly identified by the terms science is using (work?). I call them figments based on our present partial knowledge of EVERYTHING - subject to be changed when our knowledge -inventory grows. It was different 1000 years ago and maybe yesterday. Your sentences are involved, I need more time to digest them better. (As I recall our last discussion years ago, I stopped short when you started to resort more and more into engineering lingo what I could not match. That was the time when my agnostic ideas emerged and I could not cope with the human thinking firmness of the engineering know-it-all.) My principle is - "I dunno". ## LIFE: I feel with 'my' translation I may be close to your position - maybe a bit wider in scope. I did not boil it down (so far!) to energy change (flow). Reproduction is nonexistent, except in prokaryotes, the offspring of 2 heterosexual parents into a 3rd entity maybe 'procreation', but not *reproduction* of any of the parents. Just think of the personal DNA. I surprised already some reputable biologists/physiologists. Like a physicist's characterisation of energy(activity!) I found for life - *process* the M&R (metabolism and repair) description of Robert Rosen the closest - not an identification of the *term* either. Besides I place a 'life(process)' into much wider bounds than OUR human chemistry of carbon compound-, even non-carbon compound live- bio-chem-processes in our terrestrial circumstances. (See resp to ##9) ##to7: I "feel" the 'universe' is our abode among innumerable others in a Multiverse - composed of non-identical ones, MAYBE not so simplistic ones as ours (we have no contact to others): ours is founded upon two ordinates (space and time) making it a 3D view with changes between the two. Conventional sciences cannot afford to step out from such framework (Sci.Am. or else). That would be 'unscientific' and 'imaginary'. ## "Heat Death" - the perfect and infinite entropy Stephen referred to - is akin to (my) re-distribution into the - OK, let's say: - perfect entropy of MY PLENITUDE from which the universe(s) popped out because of some "un-entropic" complexity formation - to re-smoothing again into it. The Black Hole is a related idea, perverted into Terrestrial Physics. (And so we get again closer in thinking - Ha Ha). ## to 9 I have objections. I cannot imagine (maybe my mistake) evolution without a goal, a final aim which would require an intelligent design to approach it. (I may have one: the re-distribution into the Plenitude). My way (as of yesterday) is the ease-and-potential path of changes allowed by the available configurations (relations) when a change occurs. NO RANDOM, it would make a grits out of nature. Even authors with high preference on random treatises withdrew into a "conditional random" when I attacked the term. Conditionality kills random of course. So in my terms: NO random mutations, (especially not FOR survival) I call 'evolution' the HISTORY of our universe. The unsuccessful mutants die, the successful go on - science detects them in its snapshots taken and explains them religiously. (Survival of the fittest - the Dinosaur was fit when it got extinct by the change in circumstances). I accept ONE random (in mathematical puzzles): "take ANY number..." Your "lower, but not upper bound" is highly appreciable. Thanks. I apologize for my haphazard remarks upon prima vista reading. The list-discussion is not a well-founded scientific discourse upon new ideas. Most people tell what they formulated over years. A reply is many times instantaneous. Regards John Mikes On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: > Hi John: > > My respon
RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi John: My responses are below within an edited original post. Thanks for your comments. 1) Definition (1): Energy (E) is the ability to subject a mass to a force. * Re the use of "ability" here: What I am trying to do here is establish a process such that at the instant an ability becomes a possibility that possibility is realized immediately since the necessary series of events unfold immediately . Take as an example a radioactive isotope deep in the earth's core. We can reasonably assume that it was fused together billions of years ago in some ancient stellar event. Since then it has had the "ability" to undergo fission [ a type of energy ] but has not because conditions in it have never been quite right. Then all of a sudden conditions are right - appropriate Bosons are exchanged and the fission unfolds. Energy is redistributed amongst the various types. Thus at the moment I will therefore leave the above wording as is. * * 2) There are several types of energy currently known or proposed : I agree with you about Dark Energy - I had intended the wording to be as it now appears above. ++ a) Mass itself via the conversion: [M<=>E/(c*c)] I do not think the above is a restriction in the sense I think you mean. For example a spring when compressed [as I understand it] is more massive when compressed then when relaxed. ++ b) Gravitional c) Electromagnetic d) Nuclear [Strong and Weak forces] e) Dark Energy 3) Definition (2) Work (W): Work is the flow of energy amongst the various types by means of a change in the spatial configuration, dynamics and/or amount of mass in a system brought about by an actual application of a force to a mass. 4) The exact original distribution of energy amongst the various types can't be reestablished and the new configuration can't do as much work as the prior configuration was capable of doing. [Second Law of Thermodynamics] 5) Time is not a factor: Once a flow of energy is possible it will take place immediately. 6) Conclusion (1): Since life is an energy flow conduit, wherever the possibility of life exists life will appear as rapidly as possible. The "origin" of life herein. \ If we look at the usual attempts to define "life", we find things such as grow [larger I suppose], reproduce, etc. These require a flow of energy from an initial ability to do work to a lower ability to do work and through the life entity. Think of the life entity as a pipe or "conduit" for this flow. Therefore "life" herein is just an energy flow conduit drilling holes in energy flow hang-up barriers as rapidly as possible for the particular entity to enable even more such energy flow - a simple but not necessarily uplifting origin-purpose. *** 7) Some energy flows are prevented by what are known [in my memory] as "Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers" such as nuclear bonding coefficient issues, spatial configuration, spin, other spatial dynamics, ignition temperature requirements, electromagnetic repulsion, etc. ["Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers" is not my terminology - I think there was a twenty year or so old article in Scientific American and a quick Internet search found a discussion of the repulsion hangup in "Cosmology The Science of the Universe". 8) Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character. The "purpose" of life herein. In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. 9) Now add in evolution which is a random walk with a lower but no upper bound. A discussion of the possible consequences [such as qualia levels of particular life entities] should await a critique and possibly a revision of the above. Thanks again for your comments. Hal -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
On 11/3/2012 12:10 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Stephen: -Original Message- Hi Hal, Could it be that information is being created and "forcing" the physical universe to make room for its instantiation? After all, space is not a conserved quantity! [HH] I think that what you mention is at least part of the source of Dark Energy but I wonder if the members of the multiverse are completely isolated from each other. Of course they are, otherwise we would see them! Perhaps we have yet to look in the right place in the right way. Perhaps a component of Dark Energy is a first peak at a larger world. Hi Hal, Interesting possibility! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Stephen: -Original Message- > Hi Hal, > > Could it be that information is being created and "forcing" the > physical universe to make room for its instantiation? After all, space > is not a conserved quantity! > > [HH] I think that what you mention is at least part of the source of > Dark Energy but I wonder if the members of the multiverse are > completely isolated from each other. > Of course they are, otherwise we would see them! Perhaps we have yet to look in the right place in the right way. Perhaps a component of Dark Energy is a first peak at a larger world. -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Hal Ruhl Information is a collection of facts or data. There must be a reason (a sufficient reason) for their being so. We do not know what that is, although scientists do construct theories to give us a sufficient reason or two. To do this, they use their intelligence, which is from the platonic realm. This does not provide certainty (since the theory may not be unique or be in error), but it is immensely useful. Nature itself does not need to construct theories, it is thought by some such as Leibniz, that the facts we see were created a priori according to a pre-established harmony. By the hand of God. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/3/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-02, 23:47:05 Subject: RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum Hi Stephen: I think this got lost so I sending it again. -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 6:37 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 11/2/2012 4:27 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: > Let me refer you to a very old paper of mine: > http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/life.html > > I took a quick look. I may need some help understanding it fully. I > occasionally play with the idea that Dark Energy is a spatially > uniform leak of information from "outside" combined with a maximum > information packing density in our universe. Hi Hal, Could it be that information is being created and "forcing" the physical universe to make room for its instantiation? After all, space is not a conserved quantity! I think that what you mention is at least part of the source of Dark Energy but I wonder if the members of the multiverse are completely isolated from each other. Hal -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
On 11/2/2012 11:47 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Stephen: I think this got lost so I sending it again. -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 6:37 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 11/2/2012 4:27 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Let me refer you to a very old paper of mine: http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/life.html I took a quick look. I may need some help understanding it fully. I occasionally play with the idea that Dark Energy is a spatially uniform leak of information from "outside" combined with a maximum information packing density in our universe. Hi Hal, Could it be that information is being created and "forcing" the physical universe to make room for its instantiation? After all, space is not a conserved quantity! [HH] I think that what you mention is at least part of the source of Dark Energy but I wonder if the members of the multiverse are completely isolated from each other. Of course they are, otherwise we would see them! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Stephen: I think this got lost so I sending it again. -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 6:37 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 11/2/2012 4:27 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: > Let me refer you to a very old paper of mine: > http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/life.html > > I took a quick look. I may need some help understanding it fully. I > occasionally play with the idea that Dark Energy is a spatially > uniform leak of information from "outside" combined with a maximum > information packing density in our universe. Hi Hal, Could it be that information is being created and "forcing" the physical universe to make room for its instantiation? After all, space is not a conserved quantity! I think that what you mention is at least part of the source of Dark Energy but I wonder if the members of the multiverse are completely isolated from each other. Hal -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Stephen: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 6:37 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 11/2/2012 4:27 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: > Let me refer you to a very old paper of mine: > http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/life.html > > I took a quick look. I may need some help understanding it fully. I > occasionally play with the idea that Dark Energy is a spatially > uniform leak of information from "outside" combined with a maximum > information packing density in our universe. Hi Hal, Could it be that information is being created and "forcing" the physical universe to make room for its instantiation? After all, space is not a conserved quantity! I think that what you mention is at least part of the source of Dark Energy but I wonder if the members of the multiverse are completely isolated. Hal -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
On 11/2/2012 4:27 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: [SPK] Do you see mutation as a one-to-many map and selection as a many -to-one map? Well the DNA strings we know of are finite [n characters] so a particular example is a "one" in some sense and this string's finite number of mutations 4 ^ n+ is a "many". However, I do not see that selection will always produce just "one" successor. Hi Hal, One DNA stand mutates into many... Only a few survive and create more copies of themselves... My intent with #9 was to open the door a crack on what I would like to post next. Slightly larger crack: I too have been chewing on these concepts for many years. I have several unpublished works expressing versions of these ideas such as "A Path to Socioeconomic Sustainability", 1992, Library of Congress deposit # TXu 554 900 among others and a very few published tiny pieces. My goal here is to make sure the underling engine of what I will now try to publish is sound. As potential returns to the list some of the engine's consequences seem of interest here such as consciousness distribution in an ecosystem and the engine's impact on the concept of freewill. I am with you. This WORK is a collective effort, each of us working individually to make the new paradigm real. ;-) -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
On 11/2/2012 4:27 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Let me refer you to a very old paper of mine: http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/life.html I took a quick look. I may need some help understanding it fully. I occasionally play with the idea that Dark Energy is a spatially uniform leak of information from "outside" combined with a maximum information packing density in our universe. Hi Hal, Could it be that information is being created and "forcing" the physical universe to make room for its instantiation? After all, space is not a conserved quantity! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Dear Hal,
nice to read you again after all those years.
Life is a topic I brought up many times (as a question of course) and have
only a vague idea - opposing the conventional scientific stance based on
the carbon-etc. foundational "bio"/"physiological restrictions.
In my *speculations* 'life' is *much more* than a material-based
process-type - not to mention upon definitions of our (classic?) physical
terms.
I had a hard time to draw the line between a pretty open life concept and
my thinking about *consciousness* (which is in my view something like:
*"response to relations" * without a proper definition of relation.
I appreciate *your* rule to keep the definitions congruent to those in the
physical sciences: I step beyond those in my agnostic view, considering an
infinite complexity as the 'Everything' from which some details keep
filtrating into our knowledge-base (mind content?) and we construct from
these the 'model' of our (physical?) world (continuously) over the
millennia. I do not argue: I try to spell out whatever I can for the
argument.
(I find your restriction of your 'energy' to mass too narrow, since mass
and matter are figment of our physical explanations (mostly by tools of
mathematics) about phenomena originally poorly understood. (Cf: mental
energy). Also I find the inclusion of 'dark energy' premature which serves
to explain (round up?) some mathematical mishaps in our conventional
cosmology to complement them by some dark matter.
I like your #5.
In #6 I find you just as vague as in your definition under #1 where
'ability" is a hard-to-apply quale in physically stated science-talk. -
"Since"? it may be the proposition ti discuss. Also it does not state how
the 'flow' turns into life - or what it may be to begin with.
To Stephen's excellent remark I have one word:
*1. Nice post! Any way that the energy/force/work relation can be
considered as a broken symmetry restoration concept?*
*2. Isn't the maximum entropy of a system a type of symmetry, where all
equiprobable states "look the same"?*
*
*
In my speculative story of a "logically lesser mind-boggling" explanation
about the Big Bang fables (around 1990) I presumed the "everything" (called
it Plenitude after Plato) as a (now I use newer language) complexity in
free exchange relation and perfect equilibrium (symmetry?), where
compilations of 'similars' (whatever - unidentified) are not excludible,
consequently 'knots' occur. Such knots - indeed violations of the perfect
symmetry - dissipate back into the homogeneity. I called such 'knots
universes and the re-dissipation their life-path.
I assumed a tendency for restoring the symmetry - something what our
physicists may call 'energy'. The result you may call the maximum entropy
(which is abused in conventional sciences into diverse figments, partial
changes - like e.g. the 2nd law).
Please forgive me the unscientific views in my agnostic stance. I consider
ALL we know a partial input of the "Everything" - adjusted to the
capabilities of our mind.
Beyond that ("The Model") the rest of the everything is also influencing
OUR experienced changes without our knowledge WHAT they are and HOW they
work. During my successful 50 year career in polymer sciences I believed in
atoms, forces, molecular connections & other figments. Then I became
agnostic.
With best regards
John Mikes
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote:
> Hi Everyone:
>
> I would like to restart my participation on the list by having a
> discussion regarding the aspects of what we call “life” in our universe
> starting in a simple manner as follows: [terms not defined herein have the
> usual “Laws of Physics” definition]
>
> 1) Definition (1): Energy (E) is the ability to subject a mass to a force.
>
> 2) There are several types of energy currently known:
>
> a) Mass itself via the conversion: [M <=> E/(c*c)]
> b) Gravitational
> c) Electromagnetic
> d) Nuclear [Strong and Weak forces]
> e) Dark Energy
>
> 3) Definition (2) Work (W) Work is the flow of energy amongst the various
> types by means of a change in the spatial configuration, dynamics and/or
> amount of mass in a system brought about by an actual application of a
> force to a mass.
>
> 4) The exact original distribution of energy amongst the various types
> can’t be reestablished and the new configuration can’t do as much work as
> the prior configuration was capable of doing. [Second Law of Thermodynamics]
>
> 5) Time is not a factor: Once a flow of energy is possible it will take
> place immediately.
>
> 6) Conclusion (1): Since life is an energy flow conduit, wherever the
> possibility of life exists life will appear as rapidly as possible. The
> “origin” of life herein.
>
> 7) Some energy flows are prevented by what are known [in my memory] as
> “Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers” such as nuclear bonding coefficient issues,
> spatial configuration, spin, other spatial dynamics, ignition temperature
> requirements, e
RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
Hi Stephen: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen P. King Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 11:50 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum On 10/31/2012 9:48 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: > Hi Everyone: > > I would like to restart my participation on the list by having a > discussion regarding the aspects of what we call "life" in our > universe starting in a simple manner as follows: [terms not defined > herein have the usual "Laws of Physics" definition] > > 1) Definition (1): Energy (E) is the ability to subject a mass to a force. > > 2) There are several types of energy currently known: > > a) Mass itself via the conversion: [M <=> E/(c*c)] > b) Gravitational > c) Electromagnetic > d) Nuclear [Strong and Weak forces] > e) Dark Energy Hi Hal, Nice post! Thank you. Any way that the energy/force/work relation can be considered as a broken symmetry restoration concept? I had not thought of the "unfolding" of the scene I propose in terms of symmetry. But now that you mention it is seems that our universe may have started with full rotational symmetry [a point] and may end up with the same symmetry based on an infinite uniform and quite cold gas. > > 3) Definition (2) Work (W) Work is the flow of energy amongst the various types by means of a change in the spatial configuration, dynamics and/or amount of mass in a system brought about by an actual application of a force to a mass. > > 4) The exact original distribution of energy amongst the various types > can't be reestablished and the new configuration can't do as much work > as the prior configuration was capable of doing. [Second Law of > Thermodynamics] Isn't the maximum entropy of a system a type of symmetry, where all equiprobable states "look the same"? See above response. > > 5) Time is not a factor: Once a flow of energy is possible it will take place immediately. > > 6) Conclusion (1): Since life is an energy flow conduit, wherever the possibility of life exists life will appear as rapidly as possible. The "origin" of life herein. Let me refer you to a very old paper of mine: http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/life.html I took a quick look. I may need some help understanding it fully. I occasionally play with the idea that Dark Energy is a spatially uniform leak of information from "outside" combined with a maximum information packing density in our universe. > > 7) Some energy flows are prevented by what are known [in my memory] as "Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers" such as nuclear bonding coefficient issues, spatial configuration, spin, other spatial dynamics, ignition temperature requirements, electromagnetic repulsion, etc. ["Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers" is not my terminology - I think there was a twenty year or so old article in Scientific American I am looking for and a quick Internet search found a discussion of the repulsion hang-up in "Cosmology The Science of the Universe" by Edward Robert Harrison. > > 8) Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character. The "purpose" of life herein. In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. > > 9) Now add in evolution which is a random walk with a lower but no upper bound. Do you see mutation as a one-to-many map and selection as a many -to-one map? Well the DNA strings we know of are finite [n characters] so a particular example is a "one" in some sense and this string's finite number of mutations 4 ^ n+ is a "many". However, I do not see that selection will always produce just "one" successor. My intent with #9 was to open the door a crack on what I would like to post next. Slightly larger crack: I too have been chewing on these concepts for many years. I have several unpublished works expressing versions of these ideas such as "A Path to Socioeconomic Sustainability", 1992, Library of Congress deposit # TXu 554 900 among others and a very few published tiny pieces. My goal here is to make sure the underling engine of what I will now try to publish is sound. As potential returns to the list some of the engine's consequences seem of interest here such as consciousness distribution in an ecosystem and the engine's impact on the concept of freewill. > > A discussion of the possible consequences [such as qualia levels of particular life entities - like degrees of consciousness] sh
Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum
On 10/31/2012 9:48 PM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Everyone: I would like to restart my participation on the list by having a discussion regarding the aspects of what we call “life” in our universe starting in a simple manner as follows: [terms not defined herein have the usual “Laws of Physics” definition] 1) Definition (1): Energy (E) is the ability to subject a mass to a force. 2) There are several types of energy currently known: a) Mass itself via the conversion: [M <=> E/(c*c)] b) Gravitational c) Electromagnetic d) Nuclear [Strong and Weak forces] e) Dark Energy Hi Hal, Nice post! Any way that the energy/force/work relation can be considered as a broken symmetry restoration concept? 3) Definition (2) Work (W) Work is the flow of energy amongst the various types by means of a change in the spatial configuration, dynamics and/or amount of mass in a system brought about by an actual application of a force to a mass. 4) The exact original distribution of energy amongst the various types can’t be reestablished and the new configuration can’t do as much work as the prior configuration was capable of doing. [Second Law of Thermodynamics] Isn't the maximum entropy of a system a type of symmetry, where all equiprobable states "look the same"? 5) Time is not a factor: Once a flow of energy is possible it will take place immediately. 6) Conclusion (1): Since life is an energy flow conduit, wherever the possibility of life exists life will appear as rapidly as possible. The “origin” of life herein. Let me refer you to a very old paper of mine: http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/life.html 7) Some energy flows are prevented by what are known [in my memory] as “Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers” such as nuclear bonding coefficient issues, spatial configuration, spin, other spatial dynamics, ignition temperature requirements, electromagnetic repulsion, etc. [“Energy Flow Hang-up Barriers” is not my terminology – I think there was a twenty year or so old article in Scientific American I am looking for and a quick Internet search found a discussion of the repulsion hang-up in “Cosmology The Science of the Universe” by Edward Robert Harrison. 8) Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows – this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character. The “purpose” of life herein. In other words life’s purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. 9) Now add in evolution which is a random walk with a lower but no upper bound. Do you see mutation as a one-to-many map and selection as a many -to-one map? A discussion of the possible consequences [such as qualia levels of particular life entities - like degrees of consciousness] should await a critique and possibly a revision of the above. Comments are eagerly sought. Thank you Nice! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
