subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Proclaiming ones enlightenment.."

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> Are you and I even all that different?
> > >
> > 
> > We are One but we are quite different.
> >
> Explain please?
>

Sorry, I just don't spend each day sitting at my computer looking at what is 
being said 
here and wondering what to say. 
I don't doubt your sincerity and the love you display in your posts.

Peace.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

2005-11-07 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
Are you and I even all that different?
> >
> 
> We are One but we are quite different.
>
Explain please?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Nov 1, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Peter wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > --- brahmachari108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > snip
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Reading your words and most others on their
> >> proclamations betrays the level of so called
> >> enlightenment.
> >> Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened,
> >> he would feel the need to tell
> >> "others?" What "other" exists in enlightenment?
> >> If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this
> >> need?
> >>
> >
> > The incentive to act is the same in the enlightened as
> > well as the unenlightened. Just that the unenlightened
> > think that they do it. The enlightened know that
> > nobody does anything. It just happens like the rising
> > and setting of the sun. But this understanding is
> > utterly useless for the dharma of waking state, that's
> > for sure!
> 
> The enlightened know that?
> 
> Bumper sticker I'd like to see:
> 
> "Narcissus loves me."
>
Beautiful






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108" 
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > snip
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" 
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> > > > 
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > I don't believe anyone ever does, in an absolute sense. Life 
> is 
> > > one 
> > > > > long continuum, from evolution to dissolution and over and 
> over 
> > > > > again, so 'enlightenment' as we call it, is a step whereby 
> we 
> > > > > recognize that our sense of ourselves transcends the 
> limitations 
> > > > > that our prior evolution has placed on us. We are larger 
> than we 
> > > > > ever imagined, and live and experience this as reality. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > It seems as if that state is only called 'enlightenment' 
> because 
> > > the 
> > > > > common experience in daily life and locked within our DNA is 
> > > that we 
> > > > > *are* in fact the sum of our limitations. It is how worlds 
> are 
> > > built 
> > > > > typically on Earth, now. That whole 'not enough resources, 
> grab 
> > > what 
> > > > > you can' mentality is a result of living as self-limited 
> beings.
> > > > > 
> > > > > So, when we stop living the surrealistic reality of our 
> assumed 
> > > > > limitations, and become free, we are said to then 
> > > be 'enlightened'. 
> > > > > But it is merely relative to what our past experience has 
> been. 
> > > In 
> > > > > reality, there is no actual enlightenment. It is just an 
> > > > > evolutionary stage we are very, very fond of here on Earth, 
> > > around 
> > > > > which a consensus has formed with regard to its desirability.
> > > > > 
> > > > > On the one hand, it is a significant achievement, a 
> milestone of 
> > > > > growth, and on the other hand it is no different really from 
> the 
> > > > > achievements we have achieved all of our lives.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Perhaps we prize it so greatly because of the subjective 
> > > experience 
> > > > > both of inner and outer freedom, and the knowledge, ability, 
> > > > > responsibility and love that comes with it. All admirable 
> > > qualities. 
> > > > > It both encompasses and transforms the human experience.
> > > > > 
> > > > > And yet, once this state of inner and outer freedom is 
> reached, 
> > > life 
> > > > > goes on, relative responsibilities and achievements 
> continue, 
> > > and 
> > > > > one day we will look a long way back and realize 
> > > > > that 'enlightenment', that which seemed so important once, 
> is 
> > > not so 
> > > > > relevant to our lives, that the importance of that awakening 
> has 
> > > > > faded over the years, like the memory of a favorite 
> relative, or 
> > > the 
> > > > > significant achievement of learning to walk as a young 
> child. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yet, on the horizon of our timeless lives ...another 
> > > enlightenment 
> > > > > beckons...
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Forgive please but what does your believing have to do with 
> the 
> > > Truth of it?
> > > > Interesting it is in this group how so many are so eager to 
> let 
> > > others know what their 
> > > > thinking is on enlightenment.
> > > 
> > > What is your thinking on it?
> > 
> > What good is it to think on it? 
> > 
> > > > 
> > > > Mental masturbation, this suppostion on the qualities of 
> > > enlightenment.
> > > 
> > > Is that all you can do because you are 'brahmachari'-- *mental* 
> > > masturbation?
> > 
> > I don't do sex in any fashion. Mental or otherwise.
> > Brahmachari definition is not limited to sex.
> > Truth.
> > 
> > > 
> > > > TMO fallout.EGO.
> > > 
> > > So you've had bad experiences with the TMO?
> > 
> > No, I had "good" experiences at the time, but found out these 
> experiences really didn't 
> > provide Truth nor enlightenment.
> > No regrets.
> > 
> > > 
> > > > Flowery words making it sound as if there is none, yet the 
> > > proferring itself betrays.
> > > 
> > > What are you talking about?
> > 
> > Reading your words and most others on their proclamations betrays 
> the level of so called 
> > enlightenment.
> > Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened, he would feel 
> the need to tell 
> > "others?" What "other" exists in enlightenment?
> > If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this need?
> > 
> > > > 
> > > > Just a few in this group actually contribute references within 
> > > their paths of practice without 
> > > > the "personal commentary" of what they think they know.
> > > > 
> > > > More useful and true to the mission of this group, it would be

[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > --- brahmachari108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > snip
> > 
> > > 
> > > Reading your words and most others on their
> > > proclamations betrays the level of so called 
> > > enlightenment.
> > > Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened,
> > > he would feel the need to tell 
> > > "others?" What "other" exists in enlightenment?
> > > If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this
> > > need?
> 
> 
> Are you speaking from personal experience? or from your understanding 
> of what the behavior of enlightened people looks like?
>

Who can know what the behavior of enlightened people looks like?
 TMO has perpetuated dangerous notions that have led to many thinking they know 
how it 
should look, both inner and outer.
Digging out of 35 years of experience in that organization that has now become 
a dark 
hole of desperation.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-11-02 Thread Vaj



On Nov 2, 2005, at 1:17 AM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:   On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:38 PM, brahmachari108 wrote:  Notions of CC, GC, UC are inventions of Mahesh Yogi. Where in Veda are these mentioned? What is above or below in the state of Turiya?   CC = samkhya and yoga GC = mimamsa and Vaishnava devotionalism. UC = Badarayana sutras  and numerous other places. Definitive work on CC and UC is   jivanmuktiviveka of Shankaracharya Vidyaranya.  Mahesh weaned his take on these from reading the various  commentaries   of the Badaraynana sutras, esp. favoring Shankara's  bhasya/comments/POV.   Sez me old friend, Sanskrit and Vedic music scholar, Anoop  Chandola, "no-one can listen to him [MMY] without realizing that he  is obviously speaking from personal experience..." Consensus gentium and argumentum ad verecundiam. No one?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-11-01 Thread Robert Gimbel

Yes, speaking from personal experience, is the gift.
Knowledge in the books, stays in the books;
Until someone can live what is written.
It's all just words on a page.

 In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:38 PM, brahmachari108 wrote:
> > 
> > > Notions of CC, GC, UC are inventions of Mahesh Yogi.
> > > Where in Veda are these mentioned?
> > > What is above or below in the state of Turiya?
> > 
> > 
> > CC = samkhya and yoga
> > GC = mimamsa and Vaishnava devotionalism.
> > UC = Badarayana sutras
> > 
> > and numerous other places. Definitive work on CC and UC is  
> > jivanmuktiviveka of Shankaracharya Vidyaranya.
> > 
> > Mahesh weaned his take on these from reading the various 
> commentaries  
> > of the Badaraynana sutras, esp. favoring Shankara's 
> bhasya/comments/POV.
> >
> 
> Sez me old friend, Sanskrit and Vedic music scholar, Anoop 
> Chandola, "no-one can listen to him [MMY] without realizing that he 
> is obviously speaking from personal experience..."
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-11-01 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:38 PM, brahmachari108 wrote:
> 
> > Notions of CC, GC, UC are inventions of Mahesh Yogi.
> > Where in Veda are these mentioned?
> > What is above or below in the state of Turiya?
> 
> 
> CC = samkhya and yoga
> GC = mimamsa and Vaishnava devotionalism.
> UC = Badarayana sutras
> 
> and numerous other places. Definitive work on CC and UC is  
> jivanmuktiviveka of Shankaracharya Vidyaranya.
> 
> Mahesh weaned his take on these from reading the various 
commentaries  
> of the Badaraynana sutras, esp. favoring Shankara's 
bhasya/comments/POV.
>

Sez me old friend, Sanskrit and Vedic music scholar, Anoop 
Chandola, "no-one can listen to him [MMY] without realizing that he 
is obviously speaking from personal experience..."






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

2005-11-01 Thread Vaj


On Nov 1, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Peter wrote:

>
>
> --- brahmachari108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> snip
>
>
>>
>> Reading your words and most others on their
>> proclamations betrays the level of so called
>> enlightenment.
>> Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened,
>> he would feel the need to tell
>> "others?" What "other" exists in enlightenment?
>> If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this
>> need?
>>
>
> The incentive to act is the same in the enlightened as
> well as the unenlightened. Just that the unenlightened
> think that they do it. The enlightened know that
> nobody does anything. It just happens like the rising
> and setting of the sun. But this understanding is
> utterly useless for the dharma of waking state, that's
> for sure!

The enlightened know that?

Bumper sticker I'd like to see:

"Narcissus loves me."



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

2005-11-01 Thread anonymousff

> --- brahmachari108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> snip
> 
> > 
> > Reading your words and most others on their
> > proclamations betrays the level of so called 
> > enlightenment.
> > Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened,
> > he would feel the need to tell 
> > "others?" What "other" exists in enlightenment?
> > If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this
> > need?

Are you speaking from personal experience? or from your understanding 
of what the behavior of enlightened people looks like?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

2005-11-01 Thread Peter

--- brahmachari108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

snip

> 
> Reading your words and most others on their
> proclamations betrays the level of so called 
> enlightenment.
> Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened,
> he would feel the need to tell 
> "others?" What "other" exists in enlightenment?
> If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this
> need?

The incentive to act is the same in the enlightened as
well as the unenlightened. Just that the unenlightened
think that they do it. The enlightened know that
nobody does anything. It just happens like the rising
and setting of the sun. But this understanding is
utterly useless for the dharma of waking state, that's
for sure! 

__ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

2005-11-01 Thread Vaj

On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:55 PM, brahmachari108 wrote:

> Reading your words and most others on their proclamations betrays  
> the level of so called
> enlightenment.
> Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened, he would feel  
> the need to tell
> "others?" What "other" exists in enlightenment?
> If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this need?

A fully enlightened Buddha cannot declare himself enlightened as it  
will harm other sentient beings.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-11-01 Thread Vaj

On Nov 1, 2005, at 3:38 PM, brahmachari108 wrote:

> Notions of CC, GC, UC are inventions of Mahesh Yogi.
> Where in Veda are these mentioned?
> What is above or below in the state of Turiya?

CC = samkhya and yoga
GC = mimamsa and Vaishnava devotionalism.
UC = Badarayana sutras

and numerous other places. Definitive work on CC and UC is  
jivanmuktiviveka of Shankaracharya Vidyaranya.

Mahesh weaned his take on these from reading the various commentaries  
of the Badaraynana sutras, esp. favoring Shankara's bhasya/comments/POV.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

2005-11-01 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108" 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > snip
> > > > >  
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> > > 
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I don't believe anyone ever does, in an absolute sense. Life 
is 
> > one 
> > > > long continuum, from evolution to dissolution and over and 
over 
> > > > again, so 'enlightenment' as we call it, is a step whereby 
we 
> > > > recognize that our sense of ourselves transcends the 
limitations 
> > > > that our prior evolution has placed on us. We are larger 
than we 
> > > > ever imagined, and live and experience this as reality. 
> > > > 
> > > > It seems as if that state is only called 'enlightenment' 
because 
> > the 
> > > > common experience in daily life and locked within our DNA is 
> > that we 
> > > > *are* in fact the sum of our limitations. It is how worlds 
are 
> > built 
> > > > typically on Earth, now. That whole 'not enough resources, 
grab 
> > what 
> > > > you can' mentality is a result of living as self-limited 
beings.
> > > > 
> > > > So, when we stop living the surrealistic reality of our 
assumed 
> > > > limitations, and become free, we are said to then 
> > be 'enlightened'. 
> > > > But it is merely relative to what our past experience has 
been. 
> > In 
> > > > reality, there is no actual enlightenment. It is just an 
> > > > evolutionary stage we are very, very fond of here on Earth, 
> > around 
> > > > which a consensus has formed with regard to its desirability.
> > > > 
> > > > On the one hand, it is a significant achievement, a 
milestone of 
> > > > growth, and on the other hand it is no different really from 
the 
> > > > achievements we have achieved all of our lives.
> > > > 
> > > > Perhaps we prize it so greatly because of the subjective 
> > experience 
> > > > both of inner and outer freedom, and the knowledge, ability, 
> > > > responsibility and love that comes with it. All admirable 
> > qualities. 
> > > > It both encompasses and transforms the human experience.
> > > > 
> > > > And yet, once this state of inner and outer freedom is 
reached, 
> > life 
> > > > goes on, relative responsibilities and achievements 
continue, 
> > and 
> > > > one day we will look a long way back and realize 
> > > > that 'enlightenment', that which seemed so important once, 
is 
> > not so 
> > > > relevant to our lives, that the importance of that awakening 
has 
> > > > faded over the years, like the memory of a favorite 
relative, or 
> > the 
> > > > significant achievement of learning to walk as a young 
child. 
> > > > 
> > > > Yet, on the horizon of our timeless lives ...another 
> > enlightenment 
> > > > beckons...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Forgive please but what does your believing have to do with 
the 
> > Truth of it?
> > > Interesting it is in this group how so many are so eager to 
let 
> > others know what their 
> > > thinking is on enlightenment.
> > 
> > What is your thinking on it?
> 
> What good is it to think on it? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Mental masturbation, this suppostion on the qualities of 
> > enlightenment.
> > 
> > Is that all you can do because you are 'brahmachari'-- *mental* 
> > masturbation?
> 
> I don't do sex in any fashion. Mental or otherwise.
> Brahmachari definition is not limited to sex.
> Truth.
> 
> > 
> > > TMO fallout.EGO.
> > 
> > So you've had bad experiences with the TMO?
> 
> No, I had "good" experiences at the time, but found out these 
experiences really didn't 
> provide Truth nor enlightenment.
> No regrets.
> 
> > 
> > > Flowery words making it sound as if there is none, yet the 
> > proferring itself betrays.
> > 
> > What are you talking about?
> 
> Reading your words and most others on their proclamations betrays 
the level of so called 
> enlightenment.
> Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened, he would feel 
the need to tell 
> "others?" What "other" exists in enlightenment?
> If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this need?
> 
> > > 
> > > Just a few in this group actually contribute references within 
> > their paths of practice without 
> > > the "personal commentary" of what they think they know.
> > > 
> > > More useful and true to the mission of this group, it would be 
if 
> > more of such 
> > > contributions were posted.
> > 
> > What is the mission of this group, as you see it?
> 
> It's obvious that garrulity rules.
> "Let me tell you what I think"...EGO may not be the mission but it 
appears clearly.
> A place for worthless banter on subjects equally worthless from a 
group of supposedly 
> spiritually advanced practitioners.
> 
> Sav

[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment..

2005-11-01 Thread brahmachari108

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > snip
> > > >  
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > 
> > > > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > I don't believe anyone ever does, in an absolute sense. Life is 
> one 
> > > long continuum, from evolution to dissolution and over and over 
> > > again, so 'enlightenment' as we call it, is a step whereby we 
> > > recognize that our sense of ourselves transcends the limitations 
> > > that our prior evolution has placed on us. We are larger than we 
> > > ever imagined, and live and experience this as reality. 
> > > 
> > > It seems as if that state is only called 'enlightenment' because 
> the 
> > > common experience in daily life and locked within our DNA is 
> that we 
> > > *are* in fact the sum of our limitations. It is how worlds are 
> built 
> > > typically on Earth, now. That whole 'not enough resources, grab 
> what 
> > > you can' mentality is a result of living as self-limited beings.
> > > 
> > > So, when we stop living the surrealistic reality of our assumed 
> > > limitations, and become free, we are said to then 
> be 'enlightened'. 
> > > But it is merely relative to what our past experience has been. 
> In 
> > > reality, there is no actual enlightenment. It is just an 
> > > evolutionary stage we are very, very fond of here on Earth, 
> around 
> > > which a consensus has formed with regard to its desirability.
> > > 
> > > On the one hand, it is a significant achievement, a milestone of 
> > > growth, and on the other hand it is no different really from the 
> > > achievements we have achieved all of our lives.
> > > 
> > > Perhaps we prize it so greatly because of the subjective 
> experience 
> > > both of inner and outer freedom, and the knowledge, ability, 
> > > responsibility and love that comes with it. All admirable 
> qualities. 
> > > It both encompasses and transforms the human experience.
> > > 
> > > And yet, once this state of inner and outer freedom is reached, 
> life 
> > > goes on, relative responsibilities and achievements continue, 
> and 
> > > one day we will look a long way back and realize 
> > > that 'enlightenment', that which seemed so important once, is 
> not so 
> > > relevant to our lives, that the importance of that awakening has 
> > > faded over the years, like the memory of a favorite relative, or 
> the 
> > > significant achievement of learning to walk as a young child. 
> > > 
> > > Yet, on the horizon of our timeless lives ...another 
> enlightenment 
> > > beckons...
> > 
> > 
> > Forgive please but what does your believing have to do with the 
> Truth of it?
> > Interesting it is in this group how so many are so eager to let 
> others know what their 
> > thinking is on enlightenment.
> 
> What is your thinking on it?

What good is it to think on it? 

> > 
> > Mental masturbation, this suppostion on the qualities of 
> enlightenment.
> 
> Is that all you can do because you are 'brahmachari'-- *mental* 
> masturbation?

I don't do sex in any fashion. Mental or otherwise.
Brahmachari definition is not limited to sex.
Truth.

> 
> > TMO fallout.EGO.
> 
> So you've had bad experiences with the TMO?

No, I had "good" experiences at the time, but found out these experiences 
really didn't 
provide Truth nor enlightenment.
No regrets.

> 
> > Flowery words making it sound as if there is none, yet the 
> proferring itself betrays.
> 
> What are you talking about?

Reading your words and most others on their proclamations betrays the level of 
so called 
enlightenment.
Do you think that if someone were truly enlightened, he would feel the need to 
tell 
"others?" What "other" exists in enlightenment?
If enlightenment is egoless, then what drives this need?

> > 
> > Just a few in this group actually contribute references within 
> their paths of practice without 
> > the "personal commentary" of what they think they know.
> > 
> > More useful and true to the mission of this group, it would be if 
> more of such 
> > contributions were posted.
> 
> What is the mission of this group, as you see it?

It's obvious that garrulity rules.
"Let me tell you what I think"...EGO may not be the mission but it appears 
clearly.
A place for worthless banter on subjects equally worthless from a group of 
supposedly 
spiritually advanced practitioners.

Save for a few gems.

> > 
> > Worthless as well, this post.
> 
> To each his own...

Indeed.

What do I know.

Nothing personal...

Peace.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-11-01 Thread brahmachari108

> > >
> > > Objectively?
> > > 
> > > I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.
> > > 
> > > I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-practitioner
> > > repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down in a controlled
> > > manner, chances are this person is CC or above.

> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Horse crap.
> >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> How so?

Notions of CC, GC, UC are inventions of Mahesh Yogi. 
Where in Veda are these mentioned?
What is above or below in the state of Turiya?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-16 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

[...mucho snipt...]

> > No, we're talking about a definition of, or criteria
> > for, real levitation.  *You* brought up the notion of
> > "proof" for the purposes of convincing others.  That's
> > a separate issue (one I dealt with in the parts of my
> > earlier post that you decided you weren't able to
> > deal with).
> 
> Meanwhile, back in Paris, Unc, just returned from 
> a wonderful walk along the Seine and a viewing 
> of the new Wallace and Gromit movie, clicks on
> the computer, reads how Judy spent *her* morning,
> and feels a moment of compassion.  But then he
> thinks to himself, "Self, isn't it fascinating 
> how people who have never experienced something
> feel the need to define and categorize it, while
> those who have don't seem to give definitions 
> much thought?  I guess that's what makes them
> happy, and if it makes them happy, cool."  Then 
> he pours himself a nice glass of wine, and steps 
> out onto the balcony to sit in the sun and enjoy 
> the rest of the afternoon.  It's too nice a day
> to get all stuck inside a head -- your own or
> someone else's.
>

Which is why you're bothering to reply to someone whom you don't 
enjoy talking to...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:

> > No, we're talking about a definition of, or criteria
> > for, real levitation.  *You* brought up the notion of
> > "proof" for the purposes of convincing others.  That's
> > a separate issue (one I dealt with in the parts of my
> > earlier post that you decided you weren't able to
> > deal with).
> 
> Meanwhile, back in Paris, Unc, just returned from 
> a wonderful walk along the Seine and a viewing 
> of the new Wallace and Gromit movie, clicks on
> the computer, reads how Judy spent *her* morning,

Oops, you forgot my wonderful early-morning stroll
on the beautiful beach in the fresh, clean ocean air
before making a few posts to FFL.

> and feels a moment of compassion.  But then he
> thinks to himself, "Self, isn't it fascinating 
> how people who have never experienced something
> feel the need to define and categorize it, while
> those who have don't seem to give definitions 
> much thought?

Except that even those who *have* experienced it
may enjoy defining and categorizing it, just for
the sheer fun of exercising the intellect.

(Also note that the proposed definitions and
categorizations in this case Barry was only too
happy to go to considerable trouble and length to
trash in an attempt to defend *his* position that
defining and categorizing is a function of retarded
spiritual development--as compared to his own, of
course.)

> I guess that's what makes them
> happy, and if it makes them happy, cool."  Then 
> he pours himself a nice glass of wine, and steps 
> out onto the balcony to sit in the sun and enjoy 
> the rest of the afternoon.  It's too nice a day
> to get all stuck inside a head -- your own or
> someone else's.

Translation: My wonderful walk along the Seine and
viewing of a movie whose characters are made of
Plasticine have unfortunately not cleared my mind
enough to allow me to attempt to respond to Judy's
challenge to my argument, so I'll pretend I don't
*want* to.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-16 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> 
> > > > Lawson is talking about a *theoretical* way of verifying 
> > > > something he has never witnessed.  He's talking about a
> > > > theoretical way that someone who believes in something
> > > > could use to convince someone else that the something 
> > > > is real.
> 
> No, he wasn't.  He was talking about MMY's criteria 
> for real levitation.  *You* injected the idea of
> proof for the purpose of convincing others.
> 
> 
> > > > But don't let any of that stop you in your ongoing 
> > > > attempts to impose what you believe on the world as some
> > > > kind of "Truth."  *Somebody's* got to be the obligatory
> > > > religious fanatic on this group...might as well be you.  :-)
> > > 
> > > Asking for independent confirmation of an alleged phenomenon is 
> > > now called being a "religious fanatic?"
> > 
> > My snippy remark was aimed at Judy, not you.  She's
> > made a "career" out of trying to "prove" her point
> > of view "correct" on the Internet.  You have not.
> 
> I've made a career of trying to prove that being
> agnostic about levitation is correct?  Agnosticism is
> religious fanaticism??
> 
> > My point with regard to your request for "independent
> > confirmation" of the sidhis is based on my sincere
> > belief that the quest for "independent confirmation" 
> > of such things is pretty much equivalent to Don 
> > Quixote's quest.  Nothing you ever find will "prove"
> > anything.
> 
> And I challenged this argument in the part of my
> earlier response that you decided you weren't able
> to deal with.  It's not as black-and-white as you
> suggest.
> 
> 
> > And when it comes to levitation, what would consitute
> > "proof?"  Photographs?  In this age of Photoshop and
> > digital touchups, photos are inadmissible in *court*
> > in many states as "proof."  Same with film, in the age
> > of Final Cut.  What, after all, does an easily-altered
> > photo or film "prove?"  If you're committed to believing
> > that levitation doesn't exist, neither of these things
> > will "prove" the opposite to you.
> 
> Photos or film were not proposed (also in the part
> of my earlier post you decided you weren't able to
> deal with) as "proof" but rather as MMY's criteria
> for levitation, i.e., that its nature is such that
> it shows up on film, rather than just in one's mind.
> 
> As far as convincing others is concerned, it would
> be a matter of seeing levitation "live."  As I said
> in my earlier post, photos or film wouldn't cut it
> because they can be too easily faked.
> 
> For more on why your argument about convincing others
> is faulty, see the parts of my earlier post that you 
> decided you weren't able to deal with.
> 
> 
> > > No-one has said "your experience is invalid." All *I* have said 
> > > is that its not what I define as "Yogic Flying, floating 
> > > stage," since that is supposed to be independently verifiable.
> > 
> > "Supposed to be?"  As if the person who told you that is
> > infallible?  Are you looking to determine the truth of 
> > the situation or to verify that person's opinion?  :-)
> 
> No, we're talking about a definition of, or criteria
> for, real levitation.  *You* brought up the notion of
> "proof" for the purposes of convincing others.  That's
> a separate issue (one I dealt with in the parts of my
> earlier post that you decided you weren't able to
> deal with).

Meanwhile, back in Paris, Unc, just returned from 
a wonderful walk along the Seine and a viewing 
of the new Wallace and Gromit movie, clicks on
the computer, reads how Judy spent *her* morning,
and feels a moment of compassion.  But then he
thinks to himself, "Self, isn't it fascinating 
how people who have never experienced something
feel the need to define and categorize it, while
those who have don't seem to give definitions 
much thought?  I guess that's what makes them
happy, and if it makes them happy, cool."  Then 
he pours himself a nice glass of wine, and steps 
out onto the balcony to sit in the sun and enjoy 
the rest of the afternoon.  It's too nice a day
to get all stuck inside a head -- your own or
someone else's.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Apples and oranges, Judy.  If Lawson were saying he
> > > had *witnessed* true levitation, then we'd be comparing
> > > apples to apples.  As far as I remember, he hasn't.  I
> > > have.  For me, the phenomenon is part of my subjective
> > > experience.  I need no "objective" verification of it,
> > > no more than I do for any other subjective experience
> > > I've had in my life.  And I have no need to try to 
> > > convince anyone it was "true."
> > 
> > You got rather pissed off, as I recall, when Shemp
> > expressed skepticism awhile back.  
> 
> You recall incorrectly.  Nothing anyone has *ever* 
> said on FFL has ever gotten me "pissed off."

Not that you're willing to admit to, at any rate,
the evidence of your obviously pissed-off attacks
on Shemp notwithstanding.

  I think
> you're projecting again.  :-)
> 
> > You may not need
> > "objective" verification, but you're very firmly
> > attached to the notion that your *subjective*
> > experience was something more than fantasy on your
> > part.
> 
> Nope.  If it was a fantasy, it was a rather persistent
> one, but that's always possible.  What amuses me is
> the attempt by people such as yourself and Shemp to
> *label* it a fantasy

Ooopsy-daisy.  Nope, I never labeled your experience
a fantasy.  That was Shemp, and you rather viciously
attacked him for it.

> because the experiences of some-
> one who has witnessed levitation don't jibe with the
> theories of someone (yourselves) who have not.  :-)

Pas moi, mon vieux.  I'm agnostic both about the
kind of levitation you claim you witnessed
subjectively, and about the kind that would register
on film.

> > > Lawson is talking about a *theoretical* way of verifying 
> > > something he has never witnessed.  He's talking about a
> > > theoretical way that someone who believes in something
> > > could use to convince someone else that the something 
> > > is real.  I guess that photos are a nice enough way to 
> > > do that,
> > 
> > You'd need more than photos (or film, for that
> > matter) for convincing purposes, obviously, because
> > they can be faked.  The point of mentioning photos
> > is to define the nature of the performance, i.e., it
> > will show up on film, not just in your mind.  For
> > convincing, you would have to have "live" performance
> > and objective measurements.
> 
> NOTHING you could come up with in the realm of "proof"
> would EVER convince 40% of the people on the planet
> that levitation was real.  Get over it.  THAT is a
> fantasy.
>  
> (got bored with the subject, snipt the rest...you
> can project your own reasons onto why...my reason
> is that this morning it's bright an sunny and 
> unseasonably warm here and entering into *any* 
> discussion with you seems like more of a waste
> of time than usual...so argue among yourself if
> you need an argument, ok? :-)

Actually your reason is that you decided you
couldn't deal with my challenge to your argument
about nothing ever convincing people.  Just for fun,
I'm going to reproduce it below:

> if what is important to you in life is convinc-
> ing other people that what you believe is some kinda
> "Truth,"

[Added today: Remember that *you* introduced the
idea of convincing people.  Lawson was talking
about criteria.  Two different issues.]

 but it seems like a waste of time to me. The
> bottom line is that people are going to believe what
> they want to believe -- no amount of "evidence" that
> you show them is going to convince them to believe
> anything that they *don't* want to believe.

But it isn't black and white, you see. There are
different degrees of resistance, and repeated exposure
to objective evidence can whittle it down. You could
be absolutely convinced to start with that flying isn't
possible, but it's going to be hard to maintain that
belief if people are flying all around you on
a regular basis.

That's one end of the scale. In the middle, you may
be willing to believe it's possible, and then become
convinced once you see people flying. And on the other
end of the scale, a Yogic Flying practitioner who is
convinced it's possible *except in the gut*--as we were
talking about earlier--is likely to give up the gut
resistance if s/he's doing group program and sees
others flying.

I mean, we believe a lot of stuff about how the world
works that isn't true largely because everybody
*else* believes it--consensus reality. An individual's
belief system isn't a closed loop; it's open to
external influence.

> But don't let any of that stop you in your ongoing
> attempts to impose what you believe on the world as some
> kind of "Truth." *Somebody's* got to be the obligatory
> religious fanatic on this group...might as well be you. :-)

But see, I could make exac

[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

> > > Lawson is talking about a *theoretical* way of verifying 
> > > something he has never witnessed.  He's talking about a
> > > theoretical way that someone who believes in something
> > > could use to convince someone else that the something 
> > > is real.

No, he wasn't.  He was talking about MMY's criteria 
for real levitation.  *You* injected the idea of
proof for the purpose of convincing others.

> > > But don't let any of that stop you in your ongoing 
> > > attempts to impose what you believe on the world as some
> > > kind of "Truth."  *Somebody's* got to be the obligatory
> > > religious fanatic on this group...might as well be you.  :-)
> > 
> > Asking for independent confirmation of an alleged phenomenon is 
> > now called being a "religious fanatic?"
> 
> My snippy remark was aimed at Judy, not you.  She's
> made a "career" out of trying to "prove" her point
> of view "correct" on the Internet.  You have not.

I've made a career of trying to prove that being
agnostic about levitation is correct?  Agnosticism is
religious fanaticism??

> My point with regard to your request for "independent
> confirmation" of the sidhis is based on my sincere
> belief that the quest for "independent confirmation" 
> of such things is pretty much equivalent to Don 
> Quixote's quest.  Nothing you ever find will "prove"
> anything.

And I challenged this argument in the part of my
earlier response that you decided you weren't able
to deal with.  It's not as black-and-white as you
suggest.

> And when it comes to levitation, what would consitute
> "proof?"  Photographs?  In this age of Photoshop and
> digital touchups, photos are inadmissible in *court*
> in many states as "proof."  Same with film, in the age
> of Final Cut.  What, after all, does an easily-altered
> photo or film "prove?"  If you're committed to believing
> that levitation doesn't exist, neither of these things
> will "prove" the opposite to you.

Photos or film were not proposed (also in the part
of my earlier post you decided you weren't able to
deal with) as "proof" but rather as MMY's criteria
for levitation, i.e., that its nature is such that
it shows up on film, rather than just in one's mind.

As far as convincing others is concerned, it would
be a matter of seeing levitation "live."  As I said
in my earlier post, photos or film wouldn't cut it
because they can be too easily faked.

For more on why your argument about convincing others
is faulty, see the parts of my earlier post that you 
decided you weren't able to deal with.

> > No-one has said "your experience is invalid." All *I* have said 
> > is that its not what I define as "Yogic Flying, floating stage," 
> > since that is supposed to be independently verifiable.
> 
> "Supposed to be?"  As if the person who told you that is
> infallible?  Are you looking to determine the truth of 
> the situation or to verify that person's opinion?  :-)

No, we're talking about a definition of, or criteria
for, real levitation.  *You* brought up the notion of
"proof" for the purposes of convincing others.  That's
a separate issue (one I dealt with in the parts of my
earlier post that you decided you weren't able to
deal with).

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 10/15/05 10:54 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe none ofthem are attempting to beat the
> > world record. The olympic level athletes reportedly have at least
> > short-term health problems after the run.
> 
> This topic has morphed. It would be good to change the subject line.

I think we've resolved it; and in any case, it was
still relevant, at least in terms of the purpose of
the TM-Sidhis.  (I had suggested an analogy of
training to run a marathon with the goal of becoming
fit, the ability to run a marathon being a benchmark
of fitness.)

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:

> > I'm talking about events like the New York City
> > Marathon that all kinds of ordinary people run
> > in, BTW--people who have regular jobs, moms with
> > kids, and so on.  If it were as debilitating as
> > you suggest, they wouldn't be able to participate.
> > And I've seen interviews with or stories about 
> > quite a few over the years.  Never saw any of them
> > say their health was destroyed, even temporarily.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe none ofthem are attempting to beat the 
> world record. The olympic level athletes reportedly have at least 
> short-term health problems after the run.

Ah, OK.  My analogy to the TM-Sidhis was training to
*run* a marathon, not training to *win* a marathon,
let alone beat a world record.  I was thinking just
of the ordinary person who wants to get physically
fit, not to become an Olympic athlete.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-16 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Apples and oranges, Judy.  If Lawson were saying he
> > had *witnessed* true levitation, then we'd be comparing
> > apples to apples.  As far as I remember, he hasn't.  I
> > have.  For me, the phenomenon is part of my subjective
> > experience.  I need no "objective" verification of it,
> > no more than I do for any other subjective experience
> > I've had in my life.  And I have no need to try to 
> > convince anyone it was "true."
> 
> You got rather pissed off, as I recall, when Shemp
> expressed skepticism awhile back.  

You recall incorrectly.  Nothing anyone has *ever* 
said on FFL has ever gotten me "pissed off."  I think
you're projecting again.  :-)

> You may not need
> "objective" verification, but you're very firmly
> attached to the notion that your *subjective*
> experience was something more than fantasy on your
> part.

Nope.  If it was a fantasy, it was a rather persistent
one, but that's always possible.  What amuses me is
the attempt by people such as yourself and Shemp to
*label* it a fantasy because the experiences of some-
one who has witnessed levitation don't jibe with the
theories of someone (yourselves) who have not.  :-)

> > Lawson is talking about a *theoretical* way of verifying 
> > something he has never witnessed.  He's talking about a
> > theoretical way that someone who believes in something
> > could use to convince someone else that the something 
> > is real.  I guess that photos are a nice enough way to 
> > do that,
> 
> You'd need more than photos (or film, for that
> matter) for convincing purposes, obviously, because
> they can be faked.  The point of mentioning photos
> is to define the nature of the performance, i.e., it
> will show up on film, not just in your mind.  For
> convincing, you would have to have "live" performance
> and objective measurements.

NOTHING you could come up with in the realm of "proof"
would EVER convince 40% of the people on the planet
that levitation was real.  Get over it.  THAT is a
fantasy.

(got bored with the subject, snipt the rest...you
can project your own reasons onto why...my reason
is that this morning it's bright an sunny and 
unseasonably warm here and entering into *any* 
discussion with you seems like more of a waste
of time than usual...so argue among yourself if
you need an argument, ok? :-)

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-16 Thread TurquoiseB

> > > > > > The kind of levitation/floating that MMY claims to be 
> > > > > > referring to is the kind that you can photograph and 
> > > > > > perform 
> > > > > > before a skeptical audience.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hmmm.  I would be one of those skeptics.  Exactly where,
> > > > > after 30 years or so, are these photographs that show
> > > > > "the kind of levitation" you're talking about?  
> > > > > 
> > > > > Could it possibly be that, after 30 years or so, you're
> > > > > still assuming that what Maharishi said is true just
> > > > > because he said it?  :-)
> > > > 
> > > > sure, but I'm not claiming that TM-Sidhis levitation has 
> > > > happened
> > > > or has ever happened, while YOU, in the context of discussing 
> > > > what most of us assume is TM-Sidhis levitation, DO assert 
> > > > that it happens and that you have witnessed it.
> > 
> > And?  I *have* seen it, many times.  Therefore, it falls
> > *for me* into a different category of experience than
> > something that has only been talked about or speculated
> > about.  I have no need to convince others that what I
> > witnessed was some kind of Grand Truth or anything.
> > Some TMers, on the other hand, seem to be rather 
> > obsessive about declaring their *speculation* -- something 
> > that they've never seen -- to be Truth.
> > 
> > > > Of course, you object to the "objective observer" aspect of 
> > > > the TM-sidhis claim because you have already admitted that 
> > > > YOUR definition of levitation doesn't require that it exist 
> > > > independently of the receptivity of the observer. I.E., no 
> > > > cameras, videos, and no million dollar prize possible from 
> > > > James Randi.
> > 
> > I don't "object" to those things; I just think they're
> > kinda silly, that's all, the kind of thing that someone
> > who is trying to convince someone of something engages
> > in.  I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.
> > 
> > > But having a double standard, you see--an easy one
> > > for yourself and a tough one for everybody else--
> > > is a sign of advanced spiritual development, a
> > > recognition that the universe isn't required to
> > > obey human rules of logic and consistency if they
> > > get in your way.
> > 
> > Apples and oranges, Judy.  If Lawson were saying he
> > had *witnessed* true levitation, then we'd be comparing
> > apples to apples.  As far as I remember, he hasn't.  I
> > have.  For me, the phenomenon is part of my subjective
> > experience.  I need no "objective" verification of it,
> > no more than I do for any other subjective experience
> > I've had in my life.  And I have no need to try to 
> > convince anyone it was "true."  
> > 
> > Lawson is talking about a *theoretical* way of verifying 
> > something he has never witnessed.  He's talking about a
> > theoretical way that someone who believes in something
> > could use to convince someone else that the something 
> > is real.  I guess that photos are a nice enough way to 
> > do that, if what is important to you in life is convinc-
> > ing other people that what you believe is some kinda
> > "Truth," but it seems like a waste of time to me. The
> > bottom line is that people are going to believe what
> > they want to believe -- no amount of "evidence" that
> > you show them is going to convince them to believe
> > anything that they *don't* want to believe.
> > 
> > But don't let any of that stop you in your ongoing 
> > attempts to impose what you believe on the world as some
> > kind of "Truth."  *Somebody's* got to be the obligatory
> > religious fanatic on this group...might as well be you.  :-)
> 
> 
> Asking for independent confirmation of an alleged phenomenon is now 
> called being a "religious fanatic?"

My snippy remark was aimed at Judy, not you.  She's
made a "career" out of trying to "prove" her point
of view "correct" on the Internet.  You have not.

My point with regard to your request for "independent
confirmation" of the sidhis is based on my sincere
belief that the quest for "independent confirmation" 
of such things is pretty much equivalent to Don 
Quixote's quest.  Nothing you ever find will "prove"
anything.

I'm amazed sometimes at the *naivete* of the TMO.
They seem to believe that if you trot out enough
"scientific proof" of something, everyone will believe
it and get on board with "the program."  Naive to a 
fault -- the belief system of a bunch of people who
never leave their hotels and interact on a one-on-one
basis with real people.  If they had, they would know
that you can present seemingly *irrefutable* proof of
something to people until you're blue in the face, and
those people are going to believe what they want to 
believe anyway.

And when it comes to levitation, what would consitute
"proof?"  Photographs?  In this age of Photoshop and
digital touchups, photos are inadmissible in *court*
in many states as "proof."  Same with film, in the age
of Final Cut.  What, after all, does an easily-altered
photo or film "prov

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-15 Thread Rick Archer

on 10/15/05 10:54 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe none ofthem are attempting to beat the
> world record. The olympic level athletes reportedly have at least
> short-term health problems after the run.

This topic has morphed. It would be good to change the subject line.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-15 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > I don't know that running a marathon could be said
> > > > > to "destroy your health" even temporarily.  It
> > > > > certainly depletes your strength, but it doesn't
> > > > > take that long to recover if you're fit to start
> > > > > with.
> > > > 
> > > > You start pissing blood and so on as your body digests itself
> > > > during the run.
> > > 
> > > Maybe some do, but I don't think it's very common.
> > > And even so, given that recovery is quick, I still
> > > wouldn't call that "destroying your health."
> > 
> > How quick is "quick?"
> 
> Few days, max.
> 
> I'm talking about events like the New York City
> Marathon that all kinds of ordinary people run
> in, BTW--people who have regular jobs, moms with
> kids, and so on.  If it were as debilitating as
> you suggest, they wouldn't be able to participate.
> And I've seen interviews with or stories about 
> quite a few over the years.  Never saw any of them
> say their health was destroyed, even temporarily.
>

Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe none ofthem are attempting to beat the 
world record. The olympic level athletes reportedly have at least 
short-term health problems after the run. 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-15 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > 
> > > > I don't know that running a marathon could be said
> > > > to "destroy your health" even temporarily.  It
> > > > certainly depletes your strength, but it doesn't
> > > > take that long to recover if you're fit to start
> > > > with.
> > > 
> > > You start pissing blood and so on as your body digests itself
> > > during the run.
> > 
> > Maybe some do, but I don't think it's very common.
> > And even so, given that recovery is quick, I still
> > wouldn't call that "destroying your health."
> 
> How quick is "quick?"

Few days, max.

I'm talking about events like the New York City
Marathon that all kinds of ordinary people run
in, BTW--people who have regular jobs, moms with
kids, and so on.  If it were as debilitating as
you suggest, they wouldn't be able to participate.
And I've seen interviews with or stories about 
quite a few over the years.  Never saw any of them
say their health was destroyed, even temporarily.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-15 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> 
> > > I don't know that running a marathon could be said
> > > to "destroy your health" even temporarily.  It
> > > certainly depletes your strength, but it doesn't
> > > take that long to recover if you're fit to start
> > > with.
> > 
> > You start pissing blood and so on as your body digests itself
> > during the run.
> 
> Maybe some do, but I don't think it's very common.
> And even so, given that recovery is quick, I still
> wouldn't call that "destroying your health."
>

How quick is "quick?" 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-15 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 2005, at 9:39 AM, authfriend wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >> Typical. Avoid the question. Why are you afraid to answer that
> >> question Judy?
> >
> > Vaj, the question is *irrelevant*.  The topic is what
> > MMY teaches about the purpose of TM-Sidhis practice,
> > not what *you* believe is the purpose.  Why are you
> > afraid to deal with what MMY teaches?
> 
> I thought you'd dodge the question again. I know this is painful
> for you.

Sorry, no, I'm finding it hilarious.

Let me put it another way:

The question is *irrelevant*.  The topic is what
MMY teaches about the purpose of TM-Sidhis practice,
not what *you* believe is the purpose.  Why are you
afraid to deal with what MMY teaches?

> My dear, I am dealing with this by pointing out important  
> discrepancies in what Patanjali taught and what Mahesh attempted.

Well, no, what you're dealing with are what you
believe are discrepancies between MMY's interpretation
of Patanjali and the interpretation of Patanjali that
you prefer.

The only problem is, *you don't understand what
MMY's interpretation IS*.

As I said, you can't make a case that what somebody
teaches is wrong, or even point out discrepancies
between that and what somebody else teaches,  if you
don't know *what* the first person teach.

And frankly, when you're so clueless about what
it is that MMY teaches about Patanjali, I'm very
dubious that you understand any other interpretation
of Patanjali either.

I'm sorry, but I don't have any basis for considering
you an authority about *anything*.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-15 Thread Vaj

On Oct 15, 2005, at 9:39 AM, authfriend wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On Oct 14, 2005, at 3:38 PM, authfriend wrote:
>>
>>
 The
 Patanjali sutras are yoga/samkhya darshana Judy and what is the
 result of yoga darshana Judy? I'll give you a hint, it begin
 with "C"...

>>>
>>> I wasn't aware there was a yoga darshana that
>>> had my name on it.  How strange!
>>>
>>
>> Typical. Avoid the question. Why are you afraid to answer that
>> question Judy?
>>
>
> Vaj, the question is *irrelevant*.  The topic is what
> MMY teaches about the purpose of TM-Sidhis practice,
> not what *you* believe is the purpose.  Why are you
> afraid to deal with what MMY teaches?

I thought you'd dodge the question again. I know this is painful for  
you.

My dear, I am dealing with this by pointing out important  
discrepancies in what Patanjali taught and what Mahesh attempted.  
That's in no way to diminish that Mahesh used to present a great  
intro. method. It had it's good aspects. Sadly, it didn't pan out  
well, but maybe that's more than can be expected for a mass  
meditation movement--some issues are more personal and more one-on-one.

When you're willing to talk about specifics of Patanjali/Yoga  
darshana/Samkhya darshana, write back.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

> I am also not sure any more whether the technique
> actually *does* anything or whether it merely
> tricks practitioners into forgetting that they
> *can't* do something, and as a result, they can.

That sounds like the technique "does something"
to me.

> > I think serious seekers in the TMO are far closer to E than they 
> > might realize, the reason being the fact that they live in a world
> > (until this summer) controlled by Kali. 
> 
> And what happened after this summer?  Did Kali
> get a day job or something, and have to stop
> amusing herself by fucking with the Earth?  :-)

According to Dana Milbank of the Washington Post,
it was the Curse of Cindy Sheehan.

> That said, neither manifesting the sidhis nor
> having witnessed them being performed strikes me 
> as more important or valuable than any other 
> experience in my life.  They happened.  I'm glad 
> they did.  They were neat.  But lots of other 
> things were neat.  Lots of things still are.

In MMY's teaching, of course, one isn't practicing
the techniques so that one will be able to do siddhis,
but rather because the practice facilitates Unity
consciousness.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

> > > My guess is that there is some level on which most
> > > yogic flyers don't *really* believe true levitation
> > > (i.e., hovering and beyond, not just Really Big Hops)
> > > is possible.  They may believe it on an intellectual
> > > basis, but not in their gut.
> > 
> > Exactly.  I think that's the factor that makes
> > all the difference.  And in my opinion it can't
> > be overcome intellectually.  The belief you 
> > speak of is *not* at an intellectual level.  As
> > you say, it's a "gut" experience.  Quite literally,
> > your *body* has to believe that the sidhi is 
> > possible.
> 
> I don't know whether it's the body or something
> else.  But awhile back I wrote about an experience
> I sometimes have at the apex of a hop: for a split
> second, it becomes self-evident that levitation is
> possible.  It's not a belief or even a conviction,
> it's *knowledge*, as sure as the knowledge that if
> I decide to lift my hand to scratch my nose, that's
> what's going to happen.

That's it.  Your way of expressing it is better
than mine.  'Conviction' or 'belief' connotes
something less than this experience.  It's more
what I would associate with 'seeing,' as in having
a clear intuition or a vision of the future.  You
don't 'believe' it's true; it's just true.  There
is no question about it.

> But it doesn't last.  If it did, I wouldn't come
> down.

Not even for lunch?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > I am also convinced that many of them also have reached the 
required
> > > physiological degree of purity to sustain that state which 
allows 
> > > them to levitate, but that the ambient atmosphere is fore-
checking 
> > > this and holding them back.
> > 
> > My guess is that there is some level on which most
> > yogic flyers don't *really* believe true levitation
> > (i.e., hovering and beyond, not just Really Big Hops)
> > is possible.  They may believe it on an intellectual
> > basis, but not in their gut.
> 
> Exactly.  I think that's the factor that makes
> all the difference.  And in my opinion it can't
> be overcome intellectually.  The belief you 
> speak of is *not* at an intellectual level.  As
> you say, it's a "gut" experience.  Quite literally,
> your *body* has to believe that the sidhi is 
> possible.

I don't know whether it's the body or something
else.  But awhile back I wrote about an experience
I sometimes have at the apex of a hop: for a split
second, it becomes self-evident that levitation is
possible.  It's not a belief or even a conviction,
it's *knowledge*, as sure as the knowledge that if
I decide to lift my hand to scratch my nose, that's
what's going to happen.

But it doesn't last.  If it did, I wouldn't come
down.



  
> 
> Interestingly enough, one of the benefits of
> witnessing the sidhis is being able to sit in
> their energy field.  If you are sitting close
> enough to witness the sidhi, you are sitting
> within the aura of the state of attention 
> that makes the sidhi possible.  It is a 
> transformative experience.  The energy field
> is so powerful that your *body* can't resist 
> it.  You get to "wear" that state of attention
> for a little while, to experience first-hand
> what it feels like to be in the mindstate from
> which that sidhi is possible.  It's just the
> damnedest thing.  Words fail me.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Whatever floats your boat, I guess. 
> 
> Are you addicted to your boat floating?

I think you may be onto something here.  The thought
of the opposite gives me a sinking feeling.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> 
> > I am also convinced that many of them also have reached the required
> > physiological degree of purity to sustain that state which allows 
> > them to levitate, but that the ambient atmosphere is fore-checking 
> > this and holding them back.
> 
> My guess is that there is some level on which most
> yogic flyers don't *really* believe true levitation
> (i.e., hovering and beyond, not just Really Big Hops)
> is possible.  They may believe it on an intellectual
> basis, but not in their gut.

Exactly.  I think that's the factor that makes
all the difference.  And in my opinion it can't
be overcome intellectually.  The belief you 
speak of is *not* at an intellectual level.  As
you say, it's a "gut" experience.  Quite literally,
your *body* has to believe that the sidhi is 
possible.  

Interestingly enough, one of the benefits of
witnessing the sidhis is being able to sit in
their energy field.  If you are sitting close
enough to witness the sidhi, you are sitting
within the aura of the state of attention 
that makes the sidhi possible.  It is a 
transformative experience.  The energy field
is so powerful that your *body* can't resist 
it.  You get to "wear" that state of attention
for a little while, to experience first-hand
what it feels like to be in the mindstate from
which that sidhi is possible.  It's just the
damnedest thing.  Words fail me.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

> > > The kind of levitation/floating that MMY claims to be 
> > > referring to is the kind that you can photograph and 
> > > perform before a skeptical audience.
> > 
> > Hmmm.  I would be one of those skeptics.  Exactly where,
> > after 30 years or so, are these photographs that show
> > "the kind of levitation" you're talking about?  
> > 
> > Could it possibly be that, after 30 years or so, you're
> > still assuming that what Maharishi said is true just
> > because he said it?  :-)
> 
> The MMY flying sutra works - I think you said so yourself in 
> a posting. 

It works at *something*.  I am not sure what.
I am also not sure any more whether the technique
actually *does* anything or whether it merely
tricks practitioners into forgetting that they
*can't* do something, and as a result, they can.

To be honest, I really haven't put much thought
into it.  The TM siddhis never really did that much 
for me, and I'm not in the habit of sitting around 
pondering things that didn't do that much for me.
I haven't really thought much about them since I
stopped doing them, which is now over 25 years ago.
I don't miss them; I don't regret having learned
them; I don't feel the desire to ever try them
again.  They're just something that happened 
along the Way.

> The one and only time my bpdy truly levitated was when being 
> initiated
> on the sidhi-course. The experience was that of the body being
> forcefully "pulled down" into that field which presupposes movement
> throught the air. Next it was like sitting on 2000cc bike for the
> first time, with full throttle. Scary stuff. I (or 'i' rather) was 
> not
> in control - the 2000cc bike was. The distances covered in each
> landing was in the realm of 30 feet, the altitude topped 3+ feet
> (higher was impossible due to the height of the room. 

Cool.  Neat experience.  Me, I'm not sure that I 
would still be practicing them even if I had
experienced something similar.  I've had more
than my share of whiz-bang experiences in my
life, and I've developed a kind of "Hey, that
was *neat*...wonder what's next?" attitude about
them.  I don't ponder them much once they're over,
except to write about them if they're *really*
neat, as sort of a spiritual exercise.  But even
when I do that, once the writing is over, I rarely
think of the experience again.  It's just how I am,
my predilection.  I don't know if it's a good thing
or a bad thing or an indifferent thing; it's just
my predilection.

What made me lose interest in the siddhis was some-
thing that someone here (I forget who) talked about:
the ROI factor.  He/she didn't use that term, but
that was the gist of it -- what do you get out of
this investment of time, and is that 'what' impor-
tant enough to you to continue the investment of
time?  I wound up valuing the time more than I did
the benefits.

> The physical restructuring this resulted in the ensuing 4-5 days
> included having to re-experience bodily pain from accidents that
> evidently was stored in the physiology, as well as falling asleep
> whenever I sat down.

Interesting. 

> After this, only the normal ass-bumping has occured.
> 
> I see two reasons for the latter, the first is remaning physical
> impurities. 

Or maybe there is no need for the experience to 
repeat itself.  It was what it was.  Perhaps it
will never be repeated.  Some other experience 
will come along.

> Second, perhaps the hardest one, the surroundings - doing
> the flying sutra is a declaration of war, of sorts to the prevalent
> configuration of the atmosphere. The world is simply not very
> welcoming to this high level of energy. I think this may be 
> different in different locations. 

While I understand what you are saying -- the 
world's energy has shifted a *lot* in the last
twenty years -- I am not convinced that the
environment somehow 'prevents' experience unless
we believe it does.  Mystics in every age, some
of those ages very dark indeed, have managed to 
have mystical experiences, including performance of
the sidhis.  Sometimes the darker the times, the
better the experiences.  Go figure.

> I think serious seekers in the TMO are far closer to E than they 
> might realize, the reason being the fact that they live in a world
> (until this summer) controlled by Kali. 

And what happened after this summer?  Did Kali
get a day job or something, and have to stop
amusing herself by fucking with the Earth?  :-)

> I am also convinced that many of them also have reached the required
> physiological degree of purity to sustain that state which allows 
> them to levitate, but that the ambient atmosphere is fore-checking 
> this and holding them back.
> 
> Serious feedback welcome.

While I appreciate your point of view on this,
and agree with you completely that this planet
is one gnarly place to practice the mystical
arts right now, I'm not convinced that the
world's purity or lack thereof can cause the
non-appearance of sidhis.  I am also not
convinced that a certain level o

[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread akasha_108

TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Whatever floats your boat, I guess. 

Are you addicted to your boat floating?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> 
> > I am also convinced that many of them also have reached the 
required
> > physiological degree of purity to sustain that state which allows 
> > them to levitate, but that the ambient atmosphere is fore-checking 
> > this and holding them back.
> 
> My guess is that there is some level on which most
> yogic flyers don't *really* believe true levitation
> (i.e., hovering and beyond, not just Really Big Hops)
> is possible.  They may believe it on an intellectual
> basis, but not in their gut.

(On the other hand, this may be a function of the
ambient atmosphere.)







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

> I am also convinced that many of them also have reached the required
> physiological degree of purity to sustain that state which allows 
> them to levitate, but that the ambient atmosphere is fore-checking 
> this and holding them back.

My guess is that there is some level on which most
yogic flyers don't *really* believe true levitation
(i.e., hovering and beyond, not just Really Big Hops)
is possible.  They may believe it on an intellectual
basis, but not in their gut.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > I suspect it all depends upon the level of conditioning
> > that the fanatic was exposed to.  Consider fanatical 
> > sects within the Catholic Church or Muslim faith or
> > whatever, in which doubt is not only not tolerated, it
> > is cause for expulsion.  Consider a monk who has never
> > had what he considers a spiritual experience his entire
> > life, but at the same time, has been taught every day
> > of that life that FAITH, even in the absence of exper-
> > ience, is what counts.  I would say that such persons
> > would tend to dive into the Bardo with faith intact.
> > 
> > And who knows...that may be a good thing, if what you
> > want out of this life is some benefit in the next one.
>
> What you say is good advice to keep our eyes open at all times 
> and see what we are seeing. The TB life is a sad one, in my 
> opinion, and a poor trade off for the richness of this world.

Ah, but there are benefits as well.  I have a 
number of friends who really *get off* on faith.
They make *no* rational or pondered or thought-
out decisions in their lives; everything is done
on sheer faith that things will work out if they
just "follow their bliss" or "follow their
master."  And, interestingly, more often than
not, things *do* work out for them.

Me, I chalk the difference up to predilection.
If your predilection is to be more bhakti-oriented,
and trust in a guru, then nothing else is going to
offer you the same satisfaction in life.  If your
predilection is to trust in nature or the Tao or
whatever, then nothing else is going to do it for
you.  However, if your predilection does *not* lie
in that direction, and you attempt to adopt that
lifestyle because people told you it was the Way
to go, then very little works out for you.

I think the key to a fairly happy incarnation is
to figure out as soon as possible in that lifetime
what your predilection is and follow it.  Then again,
there are probably some who set up a series of karmas
and samskaras for themselves that were designed to
*prevent* having a happy incarnation, and for them,
following the "wrong" dharma for their body's predi-
lection might be just the ticket.  

Surely there are people in this world, and people
who follow the path of self realization, whose 
intent seems to be to make things as difficult for
themselves as possible.  They usually succeed, and
when this tendency is pointed out, they usually
ignore any advice that might make things a little
easier for them and continue merrily on their Way
to misery and difficulties.  Surely this says 
something about their predilection in life.

Whatever floats your boat, I guess.  Some prefer
rowing through water, others prefer rowing through
mud.  

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Vaj

On Oct 14, 2005, at 1:09 PM, peterklutz wrote:I think serious seekers in the TMO are far closer to E than they might realize, the reason being the fact that they live in a world (until this summer) controlled by Kali. Didn't M. say the opposite, that people would be surprised (at how advanced they really were, i.e. that they couldn't levitate)? I am also convinced that many of them also have reached the required physiological degree of purity to sustain that state which allows them to levitate, but that the ambient atmosphere is fore-checking this and holding them back. I always thought that M.'s statement that 'the reason people couldn't hover was because of low coherence' was BS; then I heard the Dalai Lama's response to the same question and he stated 'people used to be able to levitate much easier and much higher (i.e when he was a child and before), but now the world consciousness is too coarse.' Of course he was commenting on the novices which the questioner observed. There are other more advanced mahamudra practitioners who can but have not (as of yet) been up for public scrutiny by outsiders.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread peterklutz

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > The kind of levitation/floating that MMY claims to be referring to 
> > is the kind that you can photograph and perform before a skeptical 
> > audience.
> 
> Hmmm.  I would be one of those skeptics.  Exactly where,
> after 30 years or so, are these photographs that show
> "the kind of levitation" you're talking about?  
> 
> Could it possibly be that, after 30 years or so, you're
> still assuming that what Maharishi said is true just
> because he said it?  :-)
>

The MMY flying sutra works - I think you said so yourself in a posting. 

The one and only time my bpdy truly levitated was when being initiated
on the sidhi-course. The experience was that of the body being
forcefully "pulled down" into that field which presupposes movement
throught the air. Next it was like sitting on 2000cc bike for the
first time, with full throttle. Scary stuff. I (or 'i' rather) was not
in control - the 2000cc bike was. The distances covered in each
landing was in the realm of 30 feet, the altitude topped 3+ feet
(higher was impossible due to the height of the room. 

The physical restructuring this resulted in the ensuing 4-5 days
included having to re-experience bodily pain from accidents that
evidently was stored in the physiology, as well as falling asleep
whenever I sat down.

After this, only the normal ass-bumping has occured.

I see two reasons for the latter, the first is remaning physical
impurities. Second, perhaps the hardest one, the surroundings - doing
the flying sutra is a declaration of war, of sorts to the prevalent
configuration of the atmosphere. The world is simply not very
welcoming to this high level of energy. I think this may be different
in different locations. 

I think serious seekers in the TMO are far closer to E than they might
realize, the reason being the fact that they live in a world (until
this summer) controlled by Kali. 

I am also convinced that many of them also have reached the required
physiological degree of purity to sustain that state which allows them
to levitate, but that the ambient atmosphere is fore-checking this and
holding them back.

Serious feedback welcome.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

> > > > > > > > Haven't you ever considered the possibility that
> > > > > > > > Maharishi just said that to get people to pay a 
> > > > > > > > lot of money for his made-up "Patanjali" tech-
> > > > > > > > niques, and to keep practicing them?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Okay, I am getting a bit confused here. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Are you a TMSP-practitioner yourself?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I took the Sidhis course, "flew" the first day,
> > > > > > was bored with the whole thing by the second
> > > > > > day.  Haven't practiced them in decades.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I just don't believe that the techniques that
> > > > > > are taught by Maharishi have *anything* to do
> > > > > > with what Patanjali was talking about.  They're
> > > > > > a made-up invention in my opinion.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I also don't believe that the siddhis have
> > > > > > *anything* whatsoever to do with enlightenment
> > > > > > or the cultivation thereof.  Apples and oranges.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Clear enough?
> > > > > 
> > > > > No,no, not at all. If I was your guru I'd tell you
> > > > > that knowledge can't be only intellectual, you must
> > > > > have the direct experience. So practice the siddhis
> > > > > regularly for 28 years, then you will know directly.
> > > > 
> > > > And if Maharishi were my guru, and I were still
> > > > "on the program," I'd probably believe it.  Many
> > > > obviously still do.
> > > > 
> > > > The question seems to be, "Which will come first
> > > > for these TBs -- doubt or death?
> > >
> > > IMO, doubt comes first, followed inevitably by death.
> > 
> > That sounds off the program to me.  If you're 
> > a real TB, it should be the other way around.
> >
> I am not sure that a even a fanatic, intuiting his/her own demise 
> would be free of doubt just previous to their extinction.

I suspect it all depends upon the level of conditioning
that the fanatic was exposed to.  Consider fanatical 
sects within the Catholic Church or Muslim faith or
whatever, in which doubt is not only not tolerated, it
is cause for expulsion.  Consider a monk who has never
had what he considers a spiritual experience his entire
life, but at the same time, has been taught every day
of that life that FAITH, even in the absence of exper-
ience, is what counts.  I would say that such persons
would tend to dive into the Bardo with faith intact.

And who knows...that may be a good thing, if what you
want out of this life is some benefit in the next one.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I suspect it all depends upon the level of conditioning
> that the fanatic was exposed to.  Consider fanatical 
> sects within the Catholic Church or Muslim faith or
> whatever, in which doubt is not only not tolerated, it
> is cause for expulsion.  Consider a monk who has never
> had what he considers a spiritual experience his entire
> life, but at the same time, has been taught every day
> of that life that FAITH, even in the absence of exper-
> ience, is what counts.  I would say that such persons
> would tend to dive into the Bardo with faith intact.
> 
> And who knows...that may be a good thing, if what you
> want out of this life is some benefit in the next one.
>
What you say is good advice to keep our eyes open at all times and see 
what we are seeing. The TB life is a sad one, in my opinion, and a 
poor trade off for the richness of this world.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Haven't you ever considered the possibility that
> > > > > > > Maharishi just said that to get people to pay a 
> > > > > > > lot of money for his made-up "Patanjali" tech-
> > > > > > > niques, and to keep practicing them?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Okay, I am getting a bit confused here. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Are you a TMSP-practitioner yourself?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I took the Sidhis course, "flew" the first day,
> > > > > was bored with the whole thing by the second
> > > > > day.  Haven't practiced them in decades.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I just don't believe that the techniques that
> > > > > are taught by Maharishi have *anything* to do
> > > > > with what Patanjali was talking about.  They're
> > > > > a made-up invention in my opinion.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I also don't believe that the siddhis have
> > > > > *anything* whatsoever to do with enlightenment
> > > > > or the cultivation thereof.  Apples and oranges.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Clear enough?
> > > > 
> > > > No,no, not at all. If I was your guru I'd tell you
> > > > that knowledge can't be only intellectual, you must
> > > > have the direct experience. So practice the siddhis
> > > > regularly for 28 years, then you will know directly.
> > > 
> > > And if Maharishi were my guru, and I were still
> > > "on the program," I'd probably believe it.  Many
> > > obviously still do.
> > > 
> > > The question seems to be, "Which will come first
> > > for these TBs -- doubt or death?
> >
> > IMO, doubt comes first, followed inevitably by death.
> 
> That sounds off the program to me.  If you're 
> a real TB, it should be the other way around.
>
I am not sure that a even a fanatic, intuiting his/her own demise 
would be free of doubt just previous to their extinction.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

> > > > > > Haven't you ever considered the possibility that
> > > > > > Maharishi just said that to get people to pay a 
> > > > > > lot of money for his made-up "Patanjali" tech-
> > > > > > niques, and to keep practicing them?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Okay, I am getting a bit confused here. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Are you a TMSP-practitioner yourself?
> > > > 
> > > > I took the Sidhis course, "flew" the first day,
> > > > was bored with the whole thing by the second
> > > > day.  Haven't practiced them in decades.
> > > > 
> > > > I just don't believe that the techniques that
> > > > are taught by Maharishi have *anything* to do
> > > > with what Patanjali was talking about.  They're
> > > > a made-up invention in my opinion.
> > > > 
> > > > I also don't believe that the siddhis have
> > > > *anything* whatsoever to do with enlightenment
> > > > or the cultivation thereof.  Apples and oranges.
> > > > 
> > > > Clear enough?
> > > 
> > > No,no, not at all. If I was your guru I'd tell you
> > > that knowledge can't be only intellectual, you must
> > > have the direct experience. So practice the siddhis
> > > regularly for 28 years, then you will know directly.
> > 
> > And if Maharishi were my guru, and I were still
> > "on the program," I'd probably believe it.  Many
> > obviously still do.
> > 
> > The question seems to be, "Which will come first
> > for these TBs -- doubt or death?
>
> IMO, doubt comes first, followed inevitably by death.

That sounds off the program to me.  If you're 
a real TB, it should be the other way around.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > (Oh, and the techniques aren't "made-up 'Patanjali'
> > > > > techniques."  You might want to have a look at the
> > > > > Yoga Sutras sometime.)
> > > > 
> > > > I have.  So, obviously, has Maharishi.  He took one
> > > > look at the verses and said to himself, "I can make
> > > > up some bullshit 'techniques' based on nothing more
> > > > than thinking these phrases in English and people
> > > > in the West are so gullible that they'll pay thousands
> > > > of dollars for it."  And he was right.
> > > 
> > > Oh, right, I forgot, we've all just been imagining the
> > > experiences and benefits from the practices to justify
> > > having paid thousands of dollars for them.
> > >
> > Although we have to be careful not to throw the baby out with 
the 
> > bath water, Barry touches on a valid point, and that is to see 
the 
> > Sidhis techniques in the light of what we are trying to 
accomplish, 
> > vs. an automatic prescription for enlightenment.
> 
> Or, we can just enjoy what they provide without
> fixating on goals.
> 
> > I found the Sidhis to be very very powerful, and they cleaned 
out 
> > some channels of my perception noticeably. I also, like Barry 
> > said, 'flew' with the flying technique on the first day.
> > 
> > However, after awhile I assessed what it was I was trying to 
> > accomplish for myself in this life, and decided that my practice 
of 
> > the Sidhis were no longer furthering my progress towards those 
> > goals.
> 
> Or, whether the day-to-day benefits continue to be
> worth the time spent, again regardless of specific
> goals.
> 
Yes, exactly-- I could no longer correlate the hours spent on these 
techniques with the benefits I received.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > (Oh, and the techniques aren't "made-up 'Patanjali'
> > > > techniques."  You might want to have a look at the
> > > > Yoga Sutras sometime.)
> > > 
> > > I have.  So, obviously, has Maharishi.  He took one
> > > look at the verses and said to himself, "I can make
> > > up some bullshit 'techniques' based on nothing more
> > > than thinking these phrases in English and people
> > > in the West are so gullible that they'll pay thousands
> > > of dollars for it."  And he was right.
> > 
> > Oh, right, I forgot, we've all just been imagining the
> > experiences and benefits from the practices to justify
> > having paid thousands of dollars for them.
> >
> Although we have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the 
> bath water, Barry touches on a valid point, and that is to see the 
> Sidhis techniques in the light of what we are trying to accomplish, 
> vs. an automatic prescription for enlightenment.

Or, we can just enjoy what they provide without
fixating on goals.

> I found the Sidhis to be very very powerful, and they cleaned out 
> some channels of my perception noticeably. I also, like Barry 
> said, 'flew' with the flying technique on the first day.
> 
> However, after awhile I assessed what it was I was trying to 
> accomplish for myself in this life, and decided that my practice of 
> the Sidhis were no longer furthering my progress towards those 
> goals.

Or, whether the day-to-day benefits continue to be
worth the time spent, again regardless of specific
goals.




> 
> So I stopped them, and continued on my merry way.
> 
> This is a very important point, to always be vigilant about where 
we 
> are going and the means we use to get there. Same as in daily life- 
> good program management.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > (Oh, and the techniques aren't "made-up 'Patanjali'
> > > > techniques."  You might want to have a look at the
> > > > Yoga Sutras sometime.)
> > > 
> > > I have.  So, obviously, has Maharishi.  He took one
> > > look at the verses and said to himself, "I can make
> > > up some bullshit 'techniques' based on nothing more
> > > than thinking these phrases in English and people
> > > in the West are so gullible that they'll pay thousands
> > > of dollars for it."  And he was right.
> > 
> > Oh, right, I forgot, we've all just been imagining the
> > experiences and benefits from the practices to justify
> > having paid thousands of dollars for them.
> 
> Actually, in my opinion that is a very strong
> possibility.

That's *very* funny.

Too bad you missed out.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > (Oh, and the techniques aren't "made-up 'Patanjali'
> > > techniques."  You might want to have a look at the
> > > Yoga Sutras sometime.)
> > 
> > I have.  So, obviously, has Maharishi.  He took one
> > look at the verses and said to himself, "I can make
> > up some bullshit 'techniques' based on nothing more
> > than thinking these phrases in English and people
> > in the West are so gullible that they'll pay thousands
> > of dollars for it."  And he was right.
> 
> Oh, right, I forgot, we've all just been imagining the
> experiences and benefits from the practices to justify
> having paid thousands of dollars for them.
>
Although we have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the 
bath water, Barry touches on a valid point, and that is to see the 
Sidhis techniques in the light of what we are trying to accomplish, 
vs. an automatic prescription for enlightenment. 

I found the Sidhis to be very very powerful, and they cleaned out 
some channels of my perception noticeably. I also, like Barry 
said, 'flew' with the flying technique on the first day.

However, after awhile I assessed what it was I was trying to 
accomplish for myself in this life, and decided that my practice of 
the Sidhis were no longer furthering my progress towards those goals.

So I stopped them, and continued on my merry way.

This is a very important point, to always be vigilant about where we 
are going and the means we use to get there. Same as in daily life- 
good program management.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Haven't you ever considered the possibility that
> > > 
> > > > > Maharishi just said that to get people to pay a 
> > > > > lot of money for his made-up "Patanjali" tech-
> > > > > niques, and to keep practicing them?
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > Okay, I am getting a bit confused here. 
> > > > 
> > > > Are you a TMSP-practitioner yourself?
> > > 
> > > I took the Sidhis course, "flew" the first day,
> > > was bored with the whole thing by the second
> > > day.  Haven't practiced them in decades.
> > > 
> > > I just don't believe that the techniques that
> > > are taught by Maharishi have *anything* to do
> > > with what Patanjali was talking about.  They're
> > > a made-up invention in my opinion.
> > > 
> > > I also don't believe that the siddhis have
> > > *anything* whatsoever to do with enlightenment
> > > or the cultivation thereof.  Apples and oranges.
> > > 
> > > Clear enough?
> > 
> > 
> > No,no, not at all. If I was your guru I'd tell you
> > that knowledge can't be only intellectual, you must
> > have the direct experience. So practice the siddhis
> > regularly for 28 years, then you will know directly.
> 
> And if Maharishi were my guru, and I were still
> "on the program," I'd probably believe it.  Many
> obviously still do.
> 
> The question seems to be, "Which will come first
> for these TBs -- doubt or death?
>
IMO, doubt comes first, followed inevitably by death.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > (Oh, and the techniques aren't "made-up 'Patanjali'
> > > techniques."  You might want to have a look at the
> > > Yoga Sutras sometime.)
> > 
> > I have.  So, obviously, has Maharishi.  He took one
> > look at the verses and said to himself, "I can make
> > up some bullshit 'techniques' based on nothing more
> > than thinking these phrases in English and people
> > in the West are so gullible that they'll pay thousands
> > of dollars for it."  And he was right.
> 
> Oh, right, I forgot, we've all just been imagining the
> experiences and benefits from the practices to justify
> having paid thousands of dollars for them.

Actually, in my opinion that is a very strong
possibility.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Peter

--- TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > snip
> > > 
> > > The kind of levitation/floating that MMY claims
> to
> > > be referring to is 
> > > the kind that you can photograph and perform
> before
> > > a skeptical 
> > > audience.
> > 
> > But this has never happened, right? So why not
> talk
> > about the man in the moon?
> 
> Given the lower gravity, the man in the moon
> will probably levitate before TM-sidhas do.
> 
> Now that I think of it, though, even butt-
> bouncing would be a lot of fun on the moon.  
> You'd probably get a few ten- or twenty-meter
> hops in each session.

That would be fun, wouldn't it? I wonder if any of the
astronauts that walked on the moon ever talked about
how much fun it was to bound around on the moon's
surface.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

__ 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > (Oh, and the techniques aren't "made-up 'Patanjali'
> > techniques."  You might want to have a look at the
> > Yoga Sutras sometime.)
> 
> I have.  So, obviously, has Maharishi.  He took one
> look at the verses and said to himself, "I can make
> up some bullshit 'techniques' based on nothing more
> than thinking these phrases in English and people
> in the West are so gullible that they'll pay thousands
> of dollars for it."  And he was right.

Oh, right, I forgot, we've all just been imagining the
experiences and benefits from the practices to justify
having paid thousands of dollars for them.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> snip
> > 
> > The kind of levitation/floating that MMY claims to
> > be referring to is 
> > the kind that you can photograph and perform before
> > a skeptical 
> > audience.
> 
> But this has never happened, right? So why not talk
> about the man in the moon?

Given the lower gravity, the man in the moon
will probably levitate before TM-sidhas do.

Now that I think of it, though, even butt-
bouncing would be a lot of fun on the moon.  
You'd probably get a few ten- or twenty-meter
hops in each session.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Haven't you ever considered the possibility that
> > 
> > > > Maharishi just said that to get people to pay a 
> > > > lot of money for his made-up "Patanjali" tech-
> > > > niques, and to keep practicing them?
> > > >
> > > 
> > > Okay, I am getting a bit confused here. 
> > > 
> > > Are you a TMSP-practitioner yourself?
> > 
> > I took the Sidhis course, "flew" the first day,
> > was bored with the whole thing by the second
> > day.  Haven't practiced them in decades.
> > 
> > I just don't believe that the techniques that
> > are taught by Maharishi have *anything* to do
> > with what Patanjali was talking about.  They're
> > a made-up invention in my opinion.
> > 
> > I also don't believe that the siddhis have
> > *anything* whatsoever to do with enlightenment
> > or the cultivation thereof.  Apples and oranges.
> > 
> > Clear enough?
> 
> 
> No,no, not at all. If I was your guru I'd tell you
> that knowledge can't be only intellectual, you must
> have the direct experience. So practice the siddhis
> regularly for 28 years, then you will know directly.

And if Maharishi were my guru, and I were still
"on the program," I'd probably believe it.  Many
obviously still do.

The question seems to be, "Which will come first
for these TBs -- doubt or death?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread akasha_108

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Don't know about less experienced TMSP practitioners, but there's the 
> > Vastu thing to consider, andof course, the claim that the Maharishi 
> > Effect exists and would have an effect on individuals during group 
> > practice of the TMSP.
> 
> More horse crap.  "I can't levitate because the doors in 
> my building face the wrong way."  I can't BELIEVE people
> still fall for this stuff.

So the flying pigs live in SV stalls?

And when the monkeys fly out your ass, are you facing east? Or do they
reorient themselves instantly upon exit? 

This is important stuff to document.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> The kind of levitation/floating that MMY claims to be referring to 
> is the kind that you can photograph and perform before a skeptical 
> audience.

Hmmm.  I would be one of those skeptics.  Exactly where,
after 30 years or so, are these photographs that show
"the kind of levitation" you're talking about?  

Could it possibly be that, after 30 years or so, you're
still assuming that what Maharishi said is true just
because he said it?  :-)

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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Paula Youmans













Objectively?

I belive MMY
says that levitation is proof of samadhi.

I suppose
this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-practitioner
repeatedly
can take-off, hoover and settle down in a controlled
manner,
chances are this person is CC or above.





 

I’m thinking if what has already
happened freaked me out as bad as it did, that my feet leaving the ground would
send me into a panicky ball of blubbering goo.

If that ever happens, someone better be
with me so they can slap me across the face….

 

I would like to see someone else do it
though …that would be fun

















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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Paula Youmans











So, when we stop living the surrealistic reality of our assumed 
limitations, and become free, we are said to then
be 'enlightened'. 
But it is merely relative to what our past
experience has been. 



 



 

Hi Jim …thanks for your reply. 

I was thinking about that line you wrote
above and you must be right. 

 

It also made me realize that it is a
concept that I don’t need to put in a box to wrap my hands around. 

I don’t really like using words that
I don’t have a clear idea of what it means, but I think I am getting a
better understanding.

Kind of like when people say they are
broke…I used to think that it meant that they have no money, but people
don’t use it that way at all. 

I’ve heard people that were in my
eyes very wealthy, say that they were broke when what they meant is they have
less money than they did last week. 


Perhaps we prize it so greatly because of the
subjective experience 
both of inner and outer freedom, and the
knowledge, ability, 
responsibility and love that comes with it. 

 

Sometimes I wonder if a
part of me is being lazy and looking for some endpoint so I can go back to
watching family guy and eating cheetos (I’m teasing kind of).

 

And yet, once this state of inner and outer freedom is
reached, life 
goes on, relative responsibilities and
achievements continue

 

Like the old saying; “before
enlightenment one chops wood and carries water. After enlightenment, one chops
wood and carries water.”

Ugh. 

 

Yet, on the horizon of our timeless lives ...another
enlightenment 
beckons...



YEAH!! :-D














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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Peter

--- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

snip
> 
> The kind of levitation/floating that MMY claims to
> be referring to is 
> the kind that you can photograph and perform before
> a skeptical 
> audience.

But this has never happened, right? So why not talk
about the man in the moon?

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Peter



--- TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Haven't you ever considered the possibility that
> 
> > > Maharishi just said that to get people to pay a 
> > > lot of money for his made-up "Patanjali" tech-
> > > niques, and to keep practicing them?
> > >
> > 
> > Okay, I am getting a bit confused here. 
> > 
> > Are you a TMSP-practitioner yourself?
> 
> I took the Sidhis course, "flew" the first day,
> was bored with the whole thing by the second
> day.  Haven't practiced them in decades.
> 
> I just don't believe that the techniques that
> are taught by Maharishi have *anything* to do
> with what Patanjali was talking about.  They're
> a made-up invention in my opinion.
> 
> I also don't believe that the siddhis have
> *anything* whatsoever to do with enlightenment
> or the cultivation thereof.  Apples and oranges.
> 
> Clear enough?


No,no, not at all. If I was your guru I'd tell you
that knowledge can't be only intellectual, you must
have the direct experience. So practice the siddhis
regularly for 28 years, then you will know directly.


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Vaj



On Oct 14, 2005, at 3:07 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:On the other hand, I disagree completely with levitation being any measure of one's state of consciousness.  It's  just a skill.  You can either do it or you can't.  It don't say bupkus about your state of consciousness.   If it was then you'd have to accept that Darth Vader was in Unity...and as everyone knows, he wasn't (well not sure about the last episode, it was kinda vague).





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > Haven't you ever considered the possibility that 
> > Maharishi just said that to get people to pay a 
> > lot of money for his made-up "Patanjali" tech-
> > niques, and to keep practicing them?
> >
> 
> Okay, I am getting a bit confused here. 
> 
> Are you a TMSP-practitioner yourself?

I took the Sidhis course, "flew" the first day,
was bored with the whole thing by the second
day.  Haven't practiced them in decades.

I just don't believe that the techniques that
are taught by Maharishi have *anything* to do
with what Patanjali was talking about.  They're
a made-up invention in my opinion.

I also don't believe that the siddhis have
*anything* whatsoever to do with enlightenment
or the cultivation thereof.  Apples and oranges.

Clear enough?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Vaj



On Oct 13, 2005, at 11:20 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz"  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans"  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  wrote:   I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I was enlightened, so there.  Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached enlightenment?   It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't remember; or getting the gas bill:"Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lolSeriously.how does anyone ever know???  Objectively?  I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.  I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP- practitioner repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down in a controlled manner, chances are this person is CC or above.   I believe MMY said that fully-perfected levitation (i.e.  floating)  (or other sidhi) done on-demand at any time outside of sutra  practice  would be a sign of fully-established Unity, not CC.  He's also implied that NOT being able to float at all is a sign  of  NOT being in Unity.   Given your first definition, the second would have to be true, wouldn't it?  Fully in Unity is not, as far as I can gather, the same as being in  Unity (somewhat/someofthetime/sorta). There would be gradiations of  maturity or whatever. Non-advaita paths generally use Unity as the Goal (or Fruit) and true Advaita paths utilize Unity as the Path.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Don't know about less experienced TMSP practitioners, but there's 
the 
> > Vastu thing to consider, andof course, the claim that the Maharishi 
> > Effect exists and would have an effect on individuals during group 
> > practice of the TMSP.
> 
> More horse crap.  "I can't levitate because the doors in 
> my building face the wrong way."  I can't BELIEVE people
> still fall for this stuff.
>

Haven't heard THAT particular claim. Where did you get it?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread peterklutz

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> > > was enlightened, so there.
> > > 
> > > Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached
> > enlightenment? 
> > > 
> > > It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't
> > > remember; or getting the gas bill:
> > > 
> > > "Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lol
> > > 
> > > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> > 
> > Objectively?
> > 
> > I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.
> > 
> > I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-
> > practitioner repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down 
> > in a controlled manner, chances are this person is CC or above.
> 
> Haven't you ever considered the possibility that 
> Maharishi just said that to get people to pay a 
> lot of money for his made-up "Patanjali" tech-
> niques, and to keep practicing them?
>

Okay, I am getting a bit confused here. 

Are you a TMSP-practitioner yourself?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > > I believe MMY said that fully-perfected levitation (i.e. 
> > > floating) 
> > > (or other sidhi) done on-demand at any time outside of sutra 
> > > practice 
> > > would be a sign of fully-established Unity, not CC.
> > > 
> > > He's also implied that NOT being able to float at all is a sign 
> > > of NOT being in Unity.
> > 
> > Given your first definition, the second would have to be true,
> > wouldn't it?
> > 
> > Has any solution been indicated for the perhaps greatest obstacle 
to
> > successfull flying sutra practice - the surroundings? 
> > 
> > Seclusion far out in the wilderness as a way of life also for non-
> > CCs simply in order to remove the obstacles put on i.a. flying 
sutra
> > practice by the collective stress of society and other less
> > good-experienced TMSP-practitioners?
> 
> You guys should get out more.  The first time I saw someone
> levitate (and by that I mean hover in mid-air for extended
> periods of time, "lifting up" and "settling down" with ease),
> it was in the Los Angeles Convention Center.  I have since
> seen it done in private meditation halls, in the desert,
> in a Denny's coffee shop late at night, and in hundreds
> of other places.  "I can't do it because of..." is a phrase
> that people who can't do stuff make up to explain why they
> can't do it.
> 
> On the other hand, I disagree completely with levitation
> being any measure of one's state of consciousness.  It's 
> just a skill.  You can either do it or you can't.  It don't
> say bupkus about your state of consciousness.
>

The kind of levitation/floating that MMY claims to be referring to is 
the kind that you can photograph and perform before a skeptical 
audience.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Irmeli Mattsson


Irmeli: It puzzles me also, why people, when they stop
 identifying the 'I'  with an image of one's personal self, say there
is  no 'I' anymore.

Peter:Because no "I" or psychological sense of "me" is
present. It can't be found. When people (in avidya)
say "me" they are refering to a sense of separate
individuality. An abstract, felt-sense of "me-ness"
that is private and distinct from others' "me-ness".

Irmeli: The `I' is the subject, who feels, sees, interprets
 and evaluates  situations, makes meaning, uses concepts like
 enlightenment in  communication, relates to others, is in dialogue
 with others.

Peter: Yes, this is all true in avidya. It is a
phenomenological reality. "I" exist, "I" think, "I"
feel, "I" interprate and evaluate, "I" make meaning.
There is always, except in deep sleep, this underlying
sense of "I".

Irmeli: The  fact that something is being perceived is based on
 subject/object  dualism. The perceiver is subject, the perceived is
 object.  The `I', the subject, cannot see itself. If it can,
 there is an error in perception.

Peter:All this is true in waking state/avidya.

Irmeli: The subject can see only something
 that is object to  itself. In enlightenment this error vanishes. And
 another error seems  to appear, the idea that there is no `I'.

Peter: No, it is not an error. You are extending waking state
logic into realization and it falls apart there. In
realization no individuality or sense of "me" can be
located. There is thought, there is feeling, there is
everything just like waking state, but there is no "I"
or "me" present. It just can't be located! People say
your name as if refering to a "you," but there is no
"you" present.

This "I" is a delusion created by the identification
of pure consciousness with bound mind. Consciousness
projects into and identifies with a subjective object
and assumes the limitations of that object.
Patanjali's metaphor of the crystal gem assuming the
color of whatever it is placed on works well. The
crystal appears to be colored. I mean, damn boy, I can
see that it's colored! That's the phenomenology of
waking state. But consciousness is not bound by any
object even when it appears to be bound (hence the
you're already enlightened rap). The initial
stage/condition of liberation is this cessation of
projection/identification of counsciousness with
objects of experience. Once counsciousness "pulls
back" into itself there is no longer any
identification occuring and hence no boundary or
relative limitation to consciousness. Full awareness,
but no "I" to lay claim to be doing anything. There is
nobody home, but all the lights are on and everything
is working just fine. That sense of "I" is just a very
subtle thought. Self-inquiry will reveal this.

Irmeli: If you are enlightened, I clearly am not, because I have
difficulties to understand you. I have never felt a glimpse of the
kind of reality you are speaking about and don't miss it either.

Are you meaning that enlightenment means to you another state of
consciousness like waking state, dreaming and sleeping. You just have
one more state appearing on daily basis: enlightenment? In TM doctrine
it had an other name I just now cannot recall.

I have referred to enlightenment as a permanent stage of awareness,
that includes waking state, dreaming and sleeping. Following our birth
we humans evolve through different stages of awareness. When a higher
stage unfolds the qualities of the old one are not lost, they are
included in the new one. The new stage is just more encompassing. What
was ultimate in the earlier stage is not anymore. A new more
encompassing ultimacy has appeared. Some aspects and structures that
earlier were embedded in the `I' and hence unseen to it, can now be
looked at, and is available as a tool to work with. Yes and this all
appears just in the relative, but more and more subtle and powerful
aspects of the relative unfold to us this way not only in the area
objective science, but also in the subjective structures of the mind
as tools and capacities and as cognition.
I claim that everything we can feel and be aware of appears in the
realm of the relative. The concept of the absolute is an intellectual
cognition of the mind. I have come to the conclusion that people tend
to call absolute some experienced states that are very subtle relative
to their predominant waking state. When you get more familiar with
those more subtle levels, you see that it is full of life and evolving
also.
I also claim that everything that appears to the cognition is cognised
only because there is a subject who is capable of feeling the
unbounded experience. In states that have not become permanently lived
stages it appears as if there is no `I', because it is so subtle
compared to the `I' of the prevalent stage.

For me as long as we in communication need the concepts I, you etc.,
it is a serious error of intellect to claim there is no `I' in one's
subjectively lived reality. We are in no way separate

[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Don't know about less experienced TMSP practitioners, but there's the 
> Vastu thing to consider, andof course, the claim that the Maharishi 
> Effect exists and would have an effect on individuals during group 
> practice of the TMSP.

More horse crap.  "I can't levitate because the doors in 
my building face the wrong way."  I can't BELIEVE people
still fall for this stuff.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> (Oh, and the techniques aren't "made-up 'Patanjali'
> techniques."  You might want to have a look at the
> Yoga Sutras sometime.)

I have.  So, obviously, has Maharishi.  He took one
look at the verses and said to himself, "I can make
up some bullshit 'techniques' based on nothing more
than thinking these phrases in English and people
in the West are so gullible that they'll pay thousands
of dollars for it."  And he was right.

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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-14 Thread Paula Youmans











Hi Akasha,

 

 

First, many here and elsewhere have so many
understandings of the term, use of such a label,
in contrast to direct
descriptors of an experience, has little communicative
value IMO.



I know
lol. I hear that word used so much, and I swear ….I don’t know what
it means lol. 

Second, I don't feel there is an endpoint (for our
purposes) to
refinement and "expansion" - and to me,
"E", connates some endpoint. 

I don’t
think there is a real endpoint either; for MANY reasons.

Worse yet, "E" conveys a goal. 

I know
lol. Kind of like when people discuss the path to enlightenment as if there is
a point of demarcation where there is not path and then path. 
I mean,…one “is” the path (at least to my way of thinking). 


I am not pegging you as having this or that type
of experience or
understanding of it. I am not offering advice.
Just offering a "joke".
Laughing is its own reward. A result of holding a
paradox in the mind
(like "where does space begin?") or the
fusion of disparate ideas or
concepts. A Gap opener. And that has its own
reward and insights.


haha, I didn’t think you were
calling me out or anything lol. If anything I wondered if I sounded like a brat
or something and thought perhaps I should choose my words better.

The problem I have is that I kept having
these spontaneous awakenings…They were incredible, but far beyond my ability
to handle them. So far beyond that I was akin to an infant with a hand gun. It
was ruining my life on a very physical level. 

I finally met a person who taught me how
to control it to a degree, so things don’t just sweep me away much
anymore (that is a very good thing). 

Any degree of control is a new development
for me and I am very much a beginner at certain practices. 

I ask questions because all I have is
experience and I try to match up the words so that I can try and understand
more (and learn more). 

I’m actually learning Hindi right
now…I think that will help me understand a little better.

 

I mean…right now, sometimes I don’t
even know if I am asking the right question J   

 










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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> > I believe MMY said that fully-perfected levitation (i.e. 
> > floating) 
> > (or other sidhi) done on-demand at any time outside of sutra 
> > practice 
> > would be a sign of fully-established Unity, not CC.
> > 
> > He's also implied that NOT being able to float at all is a sign 
> > of NOT being in Unity.
> 
> Given your first definition, the second would have to be true,
> wouldn't it?
> 
> Has any solution been indicated for the perhaps greatest obstacle to
> successfull flying sutra practice - the surroundings? 
> 
> Seclusion far out in the wilderness as a way of life also for non-
> CCs simply in order to remove the obstacles put on i.a. flying sutra
> practice by the collective stress of society and other less
> good-experienced TMSP-practitioners?

You guys should get out more.  The first time I saw someone
levitate (and by that I mean hover in mid-air for extended
periods of time, "lifting up" and "settling down" with ease),
it was in the Los Angeles Convention Center.  I have since
seen it done in private meditation halls, in the desert,
in a Denny's coffee shop late at night, and in hundreds
of other places.  "I can't do it because of..." is a phrase
that people who can't do stuff make up to explain why they
can't do it.

On the other hand, I disagree completely with levitation
being any measure of one's state of consciousness.  It's 
just a skill.  You can either do it or you can't.  It don't
say bupkus about your state of consciousness.  

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> > > was enlightened, so there.
> > > 
> > > Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached
> > enlightenment? 
> > > 
> > > It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't
> > > remember; or getting the gas bill:
> > > 
> > > "Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lol
> > > 
> > > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> > 
> > Objectively?
> > 
> > I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.
> > 
> > I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-
> > practitioner repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down 
> > in a controlled manner, chances are this person is CC or above.
> 
> Haven't you ever considered the possibility that 
> Maharishi just said that to get people to pay a 
> lot of money for his made-up "Patanjali" tech-
> niques, and to keep practicing them?

That would make sense if he had said *only* those
who can levitate are in CC.

But that's not what he said, is it?

Also, it wouldn't make sense unless there were no 
*other* benefits to the TM-Sidhis.

Plus which, as Lawson pointed out in a subsequent
post, the ability to "take-off, hoover [sic] and
settle down in a controlled manner" is evidence of
UC, not CC.

(Oh, and the techniques aren't "made-up 'Patanjali'
techniques."  You might want to have a look at the
Yoga Sutras sometime.)

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Forgive please but what does your believing have to do with the 
> Truth of it?  Interesting it is in this group how so many are so 
> eager to let others know what their thinking is on enlightenment. 
> 
> Mental masturbation, this suppostion on the qualities of 
> enlightenment.  TMO fallout.EGO.
> Flowery words making it sound as if there is none, yet the 
> proferring itself betrays.
> 
> Just a few in this group actually contribute references within 
> their paths of practice without the "personal commentary" of 
> what they think they know.
> 
> More useful and true to the mission of this group, it would be 
> if more of such contributions were posted.

To use your phrase, horse crap.

You seem to be saying that the only thing valid to
offer on this forum is what we have been taught by
other people.  "Leave it up to the 'experts.'"

Horse crap.  Many of us here have had it up to here
with 'experts.'  We've been *told* stuff about 
enlightenment for decades, by those who claim to
know, and who expect to get paid for telling it to us.
And then we start having some experiences ourselves,
and some of the experiences jibe with what we've
been told and some of them do not, but it really
doesn't matter, because they're OUR experiences,
and NO ONE can do justice to describing them except
(maybe) ourselves.

I LIKE the fact that people here aren't afraid to
talk about their personal experiences in the realm
of consciousness.  At this point in my life I just
don't have any interest in hearing what one more
'expert' says about enlightenment.  I'd rather hear
the day-to-day experiences of someone like myself
who doesn't really have a clue, but is trying to
figure it all out.  Pat answers are for small minds
who want the world to be easily compartmentable and
manageable.  The world is neither.

Let the 'experts' and their traditions go suck eggs.
I'd rather hear from the guy on the street (or the
gal on the street) who has had some interesting
experiences and wants to throw them out there for
others to bounce off of.  I don't look to anything
they say as "Truth."  I don't believe that any such
concept as "Truth" exists in the universe, so I ain't
exactly lookin' for it.  I'm just trying to figure
things out as best I can.  And I'm WAY past the 
point of taking anybody else's word for it.

This forum is great BECAUSE people don't restrict
themselves to mindlessly repeating the stuff they've
been told by the 'experts' in their lives.  They're
ready to be their own 'experts,' even if their 
'expertise' is only a stumbling attempt to figure
out what their personal experiences mean, or if they
'mean' anything.  I kinda like that.  It's refresh-
ing in this world of 10-cent prophets and 'experts'
wanting to tell you the "Truth," for a price.  
Always for a price.

The things said here are said for free.  And some
may say that you get what you pay for.  Me, I've 
gotten far more from some of the things the people
on this forum have said for free than from the 
things the 'experts' in my life sold me.  

> Worthless as well, this post.

EVERYTHING is worthless if you're still gullible
enough to be searching for the "Truth."  T'ain't no
such animal.  "Kick back and enjoy the ride and learn
what you can from whomever you can, while laughing
as much as possible" sounds like a better approach
to things to me...

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> > > was enlightened, so there.
> > > 
> > > Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached
> > enlightenment? 
> > > 
> > > It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't
> > > remember; or getting the gas bill:
> > > 
> > > "Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lol
> > > 
> > > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> > 
> > Objectively?
> > 
> > I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.
> > 
> > I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-
> > practitioner repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down 
> > in a controlled manner, chances are this person is CC or above.
> 
> Horse crap.

I agree with you, but your Yoda syntax is slipping.
I was growing fond of it.  Shouldn't you have said,
"Horse crap, that is."  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> > was enlightened, so there.
> > 
> > Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached
> enlightenment? 
> > 
> > It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't
> > remember; or getting the gas bill:
> > 
> > "Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lol
> > 
> > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> 
> Objectively?
> 
> I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.
> 
> I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-
> practitioner repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down 
> in a controlled manner, chances are this person is CC or above.

Haven't you ever considered the possibility that 
Maharishi just said that to get people to pay a 
lot of money for his made-up "Patanjali" tech-
niques, and to keep practicing them?  

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

MDG:
Then who is the "I" that is doing this switching, that "could switch
between 'ME' and 'me'", that says "the sense or glow of 'ME' was
stronger and more switchable with 'me' when I wanted it"?

Akasha:
Its a form of the intellect that knows itself, and the difference
between "Me" and "me".
Intellect, a bit morphing as "attention".

MDG:
Who is the EXPERIENCER?

A:
Its sort of a "mu" question. I understand your Ramana framework. But
IME, "Me" IS.
Its not an "Experiencer" in the way that word has a connotation to me.
But I understand that you may have a different connotation from me. 

MDG:
Notice how experiences come and go - even the experience of pure 'ME'.

A:
And Who is doing the noticing when you do this? Ponder that .. you should.

MDG:
There you are.

A:
No, Its non-localized. Its nowhere. As the beatles sang, "He is just a
Nowhere Man". :)


MDG:
You have always been there, haven't you?

A:
Another "mu" question. Or perhaps mute.

MDG:
We're trying to use linear, relative
words to hint at something that can't be contained by words.]

A:
"We" kimoshabe?

A:
> So the question is, does your sense of "no I" include an absence of
> localized "issues" that affect "you", distinct from "You"? 

> In other
> words, for example, if someone insults you, that is, someone -- or an
> event -- pushes a really deep button, do "you" still feel insulted?

MDG:
There are two fields to Life - the relative and the Absolute.

A:
Sometimes. Sometimes not.

MDG:
In enlightenment, the relative field of Life does not disappear.
That is some "spiritual urban legend".

A:
When Shiva IS, Shiva IS.


MDG:
The relative field of life is 'me'.
That 'me' has its nature, its role to perform.

A:
Do you ever read my posts? Do you think you are providing an insight here?
No problem if you are using my comments as a springboard to make
general statements, voiced to all, and not specifically in related to
my points. But its useful to distinguiush that. Your tone is personal,
yet your words bely much understanding of my oft expressed POVs.   


MDG:
The body still has an innate will to live.

A:
A group of us were siting on the floor late at night with M. and
someone, a caring motherly type woman" admonsished M. to get off to
bed, to get some sleep, to take care of his body "else you might die".
M. just said abruptly, "So what!" and went on with "the work".


A:
> And that gets to the point, are there still any buttons to push that
> can get "you" riled up enough so that "you" actually feel insulted? Or
> is the Ocean so deep, no waves are felt?

MDG:
The question is not framed the right way; 

A:
Oh. Thank you for clarifying my train of thought.

MDG: 
you make it a kind of
"either/or" choice, as though you can be either 'me' or 'ME'.
That's like saying that the ocean can either be waves or silent
depth, but not both together.

A:
Nope, I implied nothing of the kind. Perhaps you should read more
carefully. Or I will try to write more clearly. But in re-reading it,
it seems pretty clear. Again, feel free to use my comments as a
springboard to go off on your own lecture. Lectures can be good. But
don't delude yourself that you are addressing points I raised.

MDG:
Why can't 'me' feel insulted, and "ME" feel nothing in its silence,


A:
For you, if you have that experience, then I am sure it can. But I am
refering to my own experience where the Ocean so deep that any
"insults" just don't stick. Nothing can be taken away. Anger can't
rise up. So that is my Experience. At tmes -- which I am referring to.
It doesn't need to fit your experience or intellectual frameworks. It
just IS.

MDG:
If you put attention on 'me' you will notice all the mechanics of
insult and attention will experience/resonate with 'insult'.
If you put attention on "ME" you will notice all untouchability and
silence and peace and attention will experience/resonate with 'un-
touchable'.

A:
Michael, I notice what I notice. I notice a lot. You are free to
notice what you do. We can compare notes at time. That would be fun.
And while I appreciate your imptus and impulse to help, I don't need
you to tell me what I notice or need to notice. Particularly when you
don't seem to notice -- or have had the experience -- that I am
referring to.  What I refered to above is outside the realm of
reacting to insult. If you have not experienced that, fine. if you
want to state that you experience and react to insults, while
experiencing "Me", fine. I have been there. But I am referring to
something beyond that. (see prior response)

MDG:
Both are simultaneously true.

A:
If they are for you at times, then fine. Just a heads up, someday you
may experience something where the Ocean so deep that any "insults"
just don't stick. Nothing can be taken away. Anger can't rise up. So
thats my Experience. If you also eperience such, then great. If you do
not experience such, then great. Your experience is your experience.

A:
> It would seem if ALL traces of ego are gone,

MDG:
If all traces of

[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> > > > was enlightened, so there.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached
> > > enlightenment? 
> > > > 
> > > > It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't
> > > remember; or
> > > > getting the gas bill:
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > "Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lol
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> > > 
> > > Objectively?
> > > 
> > > I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.
> > > 
> > > I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-
> > practitioner
> > > repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down in a controlled
> > > manner, chances are this person is CC or above.
> > >
> > 
> > I believe MMY said that fully-perfected levitation (i.e. 
floating) 
> > (or other sidhi) done on-demand at any time outside of sutra 
practice 
> > would be a sign of fully-established Unity, not CC.
> > 
> > He's also implied that NOT being able to float at all is a sign 
of 
> > NOT being in Unity.
> >
> 
> Given your first definition, the second would have to be true,
> wouldn't it?

Fully in Unity is not, as far as I can gather, the same as being in 
Unity (somewhat/someofthetime/sorta). There would be gradiations of 
maturity or whatever.

> 
> Has any solution been indicated for the perhaps greatest obstacle to
> successfull flying sutra practice - the surroundings? 
> 
> Seclusion far out in the wilderness as a way of life also for non-
CCs
> simply in order to remove the obstacles put on i.a. flying sutra
> practice by the collective stress of society and other less
> good-experienced TMSP-practitioners?
>

Don't know about less experienced TMSP practitioners, but there's the 
Vastu thing to consider, andof course, the claim that the Maharishi 
Effect exists and would have an effect on individuals during group 
practice of the TMSP.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

Hi Paula,

Pleasant is always good, if not the best. My response, though
"serious" in content, had a jocular intent.

There is a cetain "joke" underlying the question and answer. In a
similar vein to Judy's statement "I just don't want to be overshadowed
anymore". 

As you may know from my posts, I am not a big fan of labels such as
"Enlightenment".  First, many here and elsewhere have so many
understandings of the term, use of such a label, in contrast to direct
descriptors of an experience, has little communicative value IMO.

Second, I don't feel there is an endpoint (for our purposes) to
refinement and "expansion" - and to me, "E", connates some endpoint. 

Worse yet, "E" conveys a goal. Something to strive for. Yet the state
itself, common even among multiple definitions, is a "striveless
state" -- something to which nothing can be added, and nothing can be
taken away. Thus, striving for a "striveless" state, is a paradox, and
is quite funny. If "obtaining 'E'" adds something, by definition (and
eperience) its not 'E'.

And a characteristic of what many people refer to as "E" is the
awareness of non-localized, undifferented (from others) sense of
"identity" (or identitylessness)."I" strives. "IT" is not striving.
Thus, the concept or motion of "striving for E" is also funny on a
second level, beyond that of the preceeding paragraph. In "E" there is
no "I" to strive. 

So the thought "I strive for Enlightenment" is an unsurpassed,
multi-level, "recursive into itself", Escher-type joke: there is no
"I" that can strive to and achieve the striveless state.

Similar to the statement (high level joke to me) "I just don't want to
be overshadowed anymore". The striver ("I") is not that which is NOT
overshadowed. Thats a convoluted double negative sentence, I know, but
no more convoluted than the paradox of the original quote. And the
striving "to not be overshadowed" is the same "striving for a
'striveless state'" as above.  

I am not pegging you as having this or that type of experience or
understanding of it. I am not offering advice. Just offering a "joke".
Laughing is its own reward. A result of holding a paradox in the mind
(like "where does space begin?") or the fusion of disparate ideas or
concepts. A Gap opener. And that has its own reward and insights.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Yikes, not at all. 
>  
> And if I did, asking would hardly help me (as I was stating).
> 
> I ask because people speak of enlightenment as if they know what it
is and
> have never been able ttent. find out. 
> 
> So to answer your questions
> 
> 1.I want to know
> 2.you couldn't pay me to take such a label
> 3.I guess
> 4.not to me, but I've never claimed to be smart. I'm more of the
> pleasant type
> 
>  
> 
> Do you know?
> 
   _  
> 
> Peter 
> > I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> > was enlightened, so there.
> 
> Paula
> > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> 
> 
> Who wants to know? Do you feel you would be enhanced with such a
> christening or label? If so, isn't that telling? Doesn't that in
> itself convey the answer?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To subscribe, send a message to:
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> and click 'Join This Group!' 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPONSORED LINKS 
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> 
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>
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> yogi 
> 
> Ramana
>
 i&w2=Ramana+maharshi&c=2&s=48&.sig=D6Jfznbioysd6xJ1BSC_Fw>  maharshi 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread peterklutz

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> > > was enlightened, so there.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached
> > enlightenment? 
> > > 
> > > It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't
> > remember; or
> > > getting the gas bill:
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > "Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lol
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> > 
> > Objectively?
> > 
> > I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.
> > 
> > I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-
> practitioner
> > repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down in a controlled
> > manner, chances are this person is CC or above.
> >
> 
> I believe MMY said that fully-perfected levitation (i.e. floating) 
> (or other sidhi) done on-demand at any time outside of sutra practice 
> would be a sign of fully-established Unity, not CC.
> 
> He's also implied that NOT being able to float at all is a sign of 
> NOT being in Unity.
>

Given your first definition, the second would have to be true,
wouldn't it?

Has any solution been indicated for the perhaps greatest obstacle to
successfull flying sutra practice - the surroundings? 

Seclusion far out in the wilderness as a way of life also for non-CCs
simply in order to remove the obstacles put on i.a. flying sutra
practice by the collective stress of society and other less
good-experienced TMSP-practitioners?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

Peter:
> > > This is one of the clearest responses articulating the
> > >  condition of "I" after realization. It's brilliant.
> > > Wondering what happens to the "I" in enlightenment is
> > > like asking what happens to the knot after it's
> > > untied; what happens to the darkness when the light is
> > > turned on. What happens is that they no longer exist.
> > > They are not accounted for because they cease to
> > > be"assimilated, silenced, replaced" by no-thing!
> > 

Quote: 
Answer: There is great difficulity in describing a
condition that is not within the experiental reality of the ego, and
especially in answering a question the asking of which stems from
the dualistic paradigm of reality of the questioner. An
enlightened being *is* their condition; thus, there is no purpose to
make a 'claim'. That is an ego view.
> > >>
The personal self does not become enlightened or
transformed but instead is assimilated, silenced, and replaced by a
different condition altogether.
Vaj:  
>From my POV it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the  
eastern experience of "ahamkara" (translated often as "ego") and 
the Freudian, psychological or New Age idea of "ego". The two are not 
the same, although many assume they are. When you lose ahamkara, you 
lose the ability to identify with your body. In laymen's terms, you 
die. In general, organs and cells don't like it.

Irmeli: 

It puzzles me also, why people, when they stop identifying the 'I'
with an image of one's personal self, say there is no 'I' anymore.
 
The `I' is the subject, who feels, sees, interprets and evaluates 
situations, makes meaning, uses concepts like enlightenment in 
communication, relates to others, is in dialogue with others. The 
fact that something is being perceived is based on subject/object 
dualism. The perceiver is subject, the perceived is object. 
The `I', the subject, cannot see itself. If it can, there is an error 
in interpreting. The subject can see only something that is object to 
itself. In enlightenment this error vanishes. And another error seems 
to appear, the idea that there is no `I'.

--

Akasha:

So many interpretations of what one must presume is the same
Experience. (How can one meditate for decades without some good degree
of Experience of transcendence -- in itself, separate from activity,
or at the core of things?) Why one interpretation and not another? Why
one interpretation held emphatically (at times)? 

It may be from the process of aquiring the interpretative insight --
often IME, its a Eureka type, "Ah Ha!) experience. It seems
"self-validating", obvious. And such  Eureka experiences, may open the
Gap, so it "feels so right". With such hard-core assurance, it perhaps
seems equally clear that other interpretations must not be equally
valid. Thats understandable.

But the interpreation is "just" a thought. Perhaps well processed by
the intellect . Which is just a thing that churns away. The stronger
the sense of "I" and "my" mind, "my" intellect, the stronger the habit
or senses that "my" thoughts and reflections are correct. They bubbled
up (in "my" mind) or got spit out (from "my" intellect) so they must
be correct, right? That logic is about as good as saying, "I read it
on the Internet, so it must be true, right?"

So its ironic, or perhaps deeply telling, that those alleging "no I"
are often the most emphatic that their interpretations ("my thought")
of THE Experience, is correct, more correct than others. No foul in
vigorously defending a POV. Thats quite beneficial in bringing out
deeper levels of insight. But inner liberation brings with it, ALSO,
the increasing flexibility to see and appreciate other POVs, to easily
slip into another POV, to pull the best from many POVs. These are
hallmarks of inner independence. (Well, at least, thats one (though
not singular or exclusive) self-validated POV.)









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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Paula Youmans











Yikes, not at all. 

And if I did, asking would hardly help me
(as I was stating).

I ask because people speak of
enlightenment as if they know what it is and have never been able to find out. 

So to answer your questions


 I
 want to know
 you
 couldn’t pay me to take such a label
 I
 guess
 not
 to me, but I’ve never claimed to be smart. I’m more of the
 pleasant type


 

Do you know?

 











Peter 
> I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me
that I
> was enlightened, so there.

Paula
> Seriously.how does anyone ever know???


Who wants to know? Do you feel you would be
enhanced with such a
christening or label? If so, isn't that telling?
Doesn't that in
itself convey the answer?















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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > 
> > I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> > was enlightened, so there.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached
> enlightenment? 
> > 
> > It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't
> remember; or
> > getting the gas bill:
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > "Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lol
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> 
> Objectively?
> 
> I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.
> 
> I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-
practitioner
> repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down in a controlled
> manner, chances are this person is CC or above.
>

I believe MMY said that fully-perfected levitation (i.e. floating) 
(or other sidhi) done on-demand at any time outside of sutra practice 
would be a sign of fully-established Unity, not CC.

He's also implied that NOT being able to float at all is a sign of 
NOT being in Unity.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> Full awareness,
> > but no "I" to lay claim to be doing anything. There is
> > nobody home, but all the lights are on and everything 
> > is working just fine. That sense of "I" is just a very
> > subtle thought. Self-inquiry will reveal this.  
> 
> Although "I" no longer exists, do you find that you can think that 
> very subtle thought anyway, if you choose to?
>

Who chooses?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

>
Peter 
> I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> was enlightened, so there.

Paula
> Seriously.how does anyone ever know???


Who wants to know? Do you feel you would be enhanced with such a
christening or label? If so, isn't that telling? Doesn't that in
itself convey the answer?









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> snip
> > >  
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> 
> > > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I don't believe anyone ever does, in an absolute sense. Life is 
one 
> > long continuum, from evolution to dissolution and over and over 
> > again, so 'enlightenment' as we call it, is a step whereby we 
> > recognize that our sense of ourselves transcends the limitations 
> > that our prior evolution has placed on us. We are larger than we 
> > ever imagined, and live and experience this as reality. 
> > 
> > It seems as if that state is only called 'enlightenment' because 
the 
> > common experience in daily life and locked within our DNA is 
that we 
> > *are* in fact the sum of our limitations. It is how worlds are 
built 
> > typically on Earth, now. That whole 'not enough resources, grab 
what 
> > you can' mentality is a result of living as self-limited beings.
> > 
> > So, when we stop living the surrealistic reality of our assumed 
> > limitations, and become free, we are said to then 
be 'enlightened'. 
> > But it is merely relative to what our past experience has been. 
In 
> > reality, there is no actual enlightenment. It is just an 
> > evolutionary stage we are very, very fond of here on Earth, 
around 
> > which a consensus has formed with regard to its desirability.
> > 
> > On the one hand, it is a significant achievement, a milestone of 
> > growth, and on the other hand it is no different really from the 
> > achievements we have achieved all of our lives.
> > 
> > Perhaps we prize it so greatly because of the subjective 
experience 
> > both of inner and outer freedom, and the knowledge, ability, 
> > responsibility and love that comes with it. All admirable 
qualities. 
> > It both encompasses and transforms the human experience.
> > 
> > And yet, once this state of inner and outer freedom is reached, 
life 
> > goes on, relative responsibilities and achievements continue, 
and 
> > one day we will look a long way back and realize 
> > that 'enlightenment', that which seemed so important once, is 
not so 
> > relevant to our lives, that the importance of that awakening has 
> > faded over the years, like the memory of a favorite relative, or 
the 
> > significant achievement of learning to walk as a young child. 
> > 
> > Yet, on the horizon of our timeless lives ...another 
enlightenment 
> > beckons...
> 
> 
> Forgive please but what does your believing have to do with the 
Truth of it?
> Interesting it is in this group how so many are so eager to let 
others know what their 
> thinking is on enlightenment.

What is your thinking on it?
> 
> Mental masturbation, this suppostion on the qualities of 
enlightenment.

Is that all you can do because you are 'brahmachari'-- *mental* 
masturbation?

> TMO fallout.EGO.

So you've had bad experiences with the TMO?

> Flowery words making it sound as if there is none, yet the 
proferring itself betrays.

What are you talking about?
> 
> Just a few in this group actually contribute references within 
their paths of practice without 
> the "personal commentary" of what they think they know.
> 
> More useful and true to the mission of this group, it would be if 
more of such 
> contributions were posted.

What is the mission of this group, as you see it?
> 
> Worthless as well, this post.

To each his own...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread peterklutz

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "brahmachari108"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> > > was enlightened, so there.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached
> > enlightenment? 
> > > 
> > > It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't
> > remember; or
> > > getting the gas bill:
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > "Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lol
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> > 
> > Objectively?
> > 
> > I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.
> > 
> > I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-practitioner
> > repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down in a controlled
> > manner, chances are this person is CC or above.
> 
> Horse crap.
>

How so?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread brahmachari108

snip
> >  
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:

> > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:

> I don't believe anyone ever does, in an absolute sense. Life is one 
> long continuum, from evolution to dissolution and over and over 
> again, so 'enlightenment' as we call it, is a step whereby we 
> recognize that our sense of ourselves transcends the limitations 
> that our prior evolution has placed on us. We are larger than we 
> ever imagined, and live and experience this as reality. 
> 
> It seems as if that state is only called 'enlightenment' because the 
> common experience in daily life and locked within our DNA is that we 
> *are* in fact the sum of our limitations. It is how worlds are built 
> typically on Earth, now. That whole 'not enough resources, grab what 
> you can' mentality is a result of living as self-limited beings.
> 
> So, when we stop living the surrealistic reality of our assumed 
> limitations, and become free, we are said to then be 'enlightened'. 
> But it is merely relative to what our past experience has been. In 
> reality, there is no actual enlightenment. It is just an 
> evolutionary stage we are very, very fond of here on Earth, around 
> which a consensus has formed with regard to its desirability.
> 
> On the one hand, it is a significant achievement, a milestone of 
> growth, and on the other hand it is no different really from the 
> achievements we have achieved all of our lives.
> 
> Perhaps we prize it so greatly because of the subjective experience 
> both of inner and outer freedom, and the knowledge, ability, 
> responsibility and love that comes with it. All admirable qualities. 
> It both encompasses and transforms the human experience.
> 
> And yet, once this state of inner and outer freedom is reached, life 
> goes on, relative responsibilities and achievements continue, and 
> one day we will look a long way back and realize 
> that 'enlightenment', that which seemed so important once, is not so 
> relevant to our lives, that the importance of that awakening has 
> faded over the years, like the memory of a favorite relative, or the 
> significant achievement of learning to walk as a young child. 
> 
> Yet, on the horizon of our timeless lives ...another enlightenment 
> beckons...


Forgive please but what does your believing have to do with the Truth of it?
Interesting it is in this group how so many are so eager to let others know 
what their 
thinking is on enlightenment. 

Mental masturbation, this suppostion on the qualities of enlightenment.
TMO fallout.EGO.
Flowery words making it sound as if there is none, yet the proferring itself 
betrays.

Just a few in this group actually contribute references within their paths of 
practice without 
the "personal commentary" of what they think they know.

More useful and true to the mission of this group, it would be if more of such 
contributions were posted.

Worthless as well, this post.











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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread brahmachari108

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "peterklutz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> > was enlightened, so there.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached
> enlightenment? 
> > 
> > It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't
> remember; or
> > getting the gas bill:
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > "Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lol
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Seriously.how does anyone ever know???
> 
> Objectively?
> 
> I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.
> 
> I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-practitioner
> repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down in a controlled
> manner, chances are this person is CC or above.

Horse crap.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread peterklutz

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> was enlightened, so there.
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached
enlightenment? 
> 
> It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't
remember; or
> getting the gas bill:
> 
>  
> 
> "Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lol
> 
>  
> 
> Seriously.how does anyone ever know???

Objectively?

I belive MMY says that levitation is proof of samadhi.

I suppose this means that if a person who is a known TMSP-practitioner
repeatedly can take-off, hoover and settle down in a controlled
manner, chances are this person is CC or above.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > And yet, once this state of inner and outer freedom is reached, 
life 
> > goes on, relative responsibilities and achievements continue, 
and 
> > one day we will look a long way back and realize 
> > that 'enlightenment', that which seemed so important once, is 
not so 
> > relevant to our lives, that the importance of that awakening has 
> > faded over the years, like the memory of a favorite relative, or 
the 
> > significant achievement of learning to walk as a young child. 
> > 
> > Yet, on the horizon of our timeless lives ...another 
enlightenment 
> > beckons...
> 
> Very nicely said.
>
Thanks- Yes, right now one of my evolutionary questions is to be 
able to discern a pinot noir from a cabernet...I am resonably sure 
*you* can...but I don't typically drink reds, fwiw





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> And yet, once this state of inner and outer freedom is reached, life 
> goes on, relative responsibilities and achievements continue, and 
> one day we will look a long way back and realize 
> that 'enlightenment', that which seemed so important once, is not so 
> relevant to our lives, that the importance of that awakening has 
> faded over the years, like the memory of a favorite relative, or the 
> significant achievement of learning to walk as a young child. 
> 
> Yet, on the horizon of our timeless lives ...another enlightenment 
> beckons...

Very nicely said.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Youmans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> 
> I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> was enlightened, so there.
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Haha.have you ever had someone tell you that you had reached 
enlightenment? 
> 
> It's a lot like someone informing you of a past life you don't 
remember; or
> getting the gas bill:
> 
>  
> 
> "Okeedoke, I'll take your word for it" lol
> 
>  
> 
> Seriously.how does anyone ever know???

I don't believe anyone ever does, in an absolute sense. Life is one 
long continuum, from evolution to dissolution and over and over 
again, so 'enlightenment' as we call it, is a step whereby we 
recognize that our sense of ourselves transcends the limitations 
that our prior evolution has placed on us. We are larger than we 
ever imagined, and live and experience this as reality. 

It seems as if that state is only called 'enlightenment' because the 
common experience in daily life and locked within our DNA is that we 
*are* in fact the sum of our limitations. It is how worlds are built 
typically on Earth, now. That whole 'not enough resources, grab what 
you can' mentality is a result of living as self-limited beings.

So, when we stop living the surrealistic reality of our assumed 
limitations, and become free, we are said to then be 'enlightened'. 
But it is merely relative to what our past experience has been. In 
reality, there is no actual enlightenment. It is just an 
evolutionary stage we are very, very fond of here on Earth, around 
which a consensus has formed with regard to its desirability.

On the one hand, it is a significant achievement, a milestone of 
growth, and on the other hand it is no different really from the 
achievements we have achieved all of our lives.

Perhaps we prize it so greatly because of the subjective experience 
both of inner and outer freedom, and the knowledge, ability, 
responsibility and love that comes with it. All admirable qualities. 
It both encompasses and transforms the human experience.

And yet, once this state of inner and outer freedom is reached, life 
goes on, relative responsibilities and achievements continue, and 
one day we will look a long way back and realize 
that 'enlightenment', that which seemed so important once, is not so 
relevant to our lives, that the importance of that awakening has 
faded over the years, like the memory of a favorite relative, or the 
significant achievement of learning to walk as a young child. 

Yet, on the horizon of our timeless lives ...another enlightenment 
beckons...

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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Paula Youmans












To be like Shiva. He does it all the time.



 



 

Plus Ostriches are cool, and by cool I
mean totally sweet!

Fast as hell they are…. Swsh

:-D






 










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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

 Peter wrote:
> I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
> was enlightened, so there.

And then you rolled over and told Tom to quit hogging all the blanket?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment