[Finale] TGTools and F2012
if anyone is using TGTools on 2012, have you had any issues with using shift/accidentals or align dynamics? i know some parts of the PI are not working properly (i had extremely bad things happen when running the update groups PI), but for these simple and straight-forward ones, i am hoping there is no problem...? cheers, jef ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] arranging and transcription pricing
Dear Finale List, This has always been a point of a big question mark with me, but I wanted to get some ideas of pricing structures, even gross, ballpark ones from what seems to be in the market today. I recently had a deal go very badly where I created over 100 pages of documents and now the client is balking at the price. I have always charged by the page, which I have always also said, per part, per score. I have charged the same price for part and score, and I have said that I will even do revisions after payment until the client is completely satisfied. What happened is the client suddenly viewed this, after the fact, as I was charging, twice per line. I said I had to do revisions and editing to all the parts, and that it wasn't just a magically created part (or unedited, for that matter), so time and care for page turns, adjusting of dynamics, etc. must be accounted for in some way. As far as I saw it, my price per page was so low that this was the only way I could make any money. In the case of this project, I was also doing arranging and not just transcription, which I had never charged differently for, so I came up with a higher rate, but kept the per part, per score clause. On top of this, as a lot of these arrangements were meant to go with piano parts that already existed, I not only didn't put the piano parts into the arrangement or the score, but the client benefited since it didn't cause the score to go a bunch of extra pages. I had to write in a piano part for one particular piece due to transposition, and I was apologetic about it. Now the client is saying that the scores, which were primarily for rehearsal purposes, only, are simply ways to charge them twice. I should also throw in that this was after the client kept adding more and more pieces to arrange and then kept checking in, saying that the music wasn't being produced fast enough. I was sending it as it was going, all parts and scores, and pages could have been counted; then I suddenly get an email asking why I hadn't said the price would be so high. This has all been very distressing. I will come out and say it; for over 100 pages of music, scores and parts, the total for everything came out to a little less than $1500, calculated on $10/page for transcription and $15/page for arranging. I have been doing this professionally for more than ten years; I really would like to know your thoughts, either privately or publicly as you wish. I took three weeks of my time working into the night on many occasions to meet this deadline, for so little money, really, and now the client has my music but doesn't want to pay; to make matters worse, I have known the client as a close friend and associate for over ten years, and this may well terminate our friendship. Am I being unreasonable? I haven't moved my rates since I began, because I haven't even known how to do so. Any and all thoughts are welcome. Michael Wittenburg Ridgewood, NJ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Avid restructuring
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20120702005682/en/Avid-Divests-Consumer-Businesses-Streamlines-Operations I don't think it's clear yet what this selloff will mean for Siblelius -- presumably it's not part of the consumer audio and video product lines being sold off? Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] arranging and transcription pricing
Hi Michael, I'm answering partly off-list (I'll send you a fuller message off-list). I am very sorry that this is distressing, but you're very much in the right here. These days the recommended rate for 'simple' work is $15 per page, separately for score and parts. 'Simple' is 6-8 lines per page -- four piano lines, two choral lines, etc. If you charge per page, then it's per page, no matter what, even if a part is nothing more than a copy with page turns. You bring expertise to the legibility and usefulness of the part, and in a way it compensates for the lower price on the score. Anything more complicated is normally charged by the hour, including arranging and transcription. To this you bring a differeny set of skills; just because they happen to mesh with you does not mean they are a given and included in the existing work. If you an engraver only, you would charge that price; a separate person who transcribed and arranged would get full rate. You are the equivalent of TWO people, two skill sets, two jobs. Don't undercharge. So hold your ground on this -- and raise your rates. Then offer a discount for 'packaged' skills. They get an apparent break, you never suffer a loss of income from it. Dennis On Wed, July 4, 2012 7:41 am, delius...@aol.com wrote: Dear Finale List, This has always been a point of a big question mark with me, but I wanted to get some ideas of pricing structures, even gross, ballpark ones from what seems to be in the market today. I recently had a deal go very badly where I created over 100 pages of documents and now the client is balking at the price. I have always charged by the page, which I have always also said, per part, per score. I have charged the same price for part and score, and I have said that I will even do revisions after payment until the client is completely satisfied. What happened is the client suddenly viewed this, after the fact, as I was charging, twice per line. I said I had to do revisions and editing to all the parts, and that it wasn't just a magically created part (or unedited, for that matter), so time and care for page turns, adjusting of dynamics, etc. must be accounted for in some way. As far as I saw it, my price per page was so low that this was the only way I could make any money. In the case of this project, I was also doing arranging and not just transcription, which I had never charged differently for, so I came up with a higher rate, but kept the per part, per score clause. On top of this, as a lot of these arrangements were meant to go with piano parts that already existed, I not only didn't put the piano parts into the arrangement or the score, but the client benefited since it didn't cause the score to go a bunch of extra pages. I had to write in a piano part for one particular piece due to transposition, and I was apologetic about it. Now the client is saying that the scores, which were primarily for rehearsal purposes, only, are simply ways to charge them twice. I should also throw in that this was after the client kept adding more and more pieces to arrange and then kept checking in, saying that the music wasn't being produced fast enough. I was sending it as it was going, all parts and scores, and pages could have been counted; then I suddenly get an email asking why I hadn't said the price would be so high. This has all been very distressing. I will come out and say it; for over 100 pages of music, scores and parts, the total for everything came out to a little less than $1500, calculated on $10/page for transcription and $15/page for arranging. I have been doing this professionally for more than ten years; I really would like to know your thoughts, either privately or publicly as you wish. I took three weeks of my time working into the night on many occasions to meet this deadline, for so little money, really, and now the client has my music but doesn't want to pay; to make matters worse, I have known the client as a close friend and associate for over ten years, and this may well terminate our friendship. Am I being unreasonable? I haven't moved my rates since I began, because I haven't even known how to do so. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Avid restructuring
On Wed, July 4, 2012 7:59 am, Darcy James Argue wrote: http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20120702005682/en/Avid-Divests-Consumer-Businesses-Streamlines-Operations I don't think it's clear yet what this selloff will mean for Siblelius -- presumably it's not part of the consumer audio and video product lines being sold off? Daniel Wolf also had something about this yesterday, with a little info from Avid: http://renewablemusic.blogspot.com/2012/07/latest-sins-fibs.html Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] sibelius UK office closing (?)
lots of inconsistent information but something to keep an eye / ear on... Jul 3 2012 Sibelius Will Stay with Avid, But Sources Report Principle Sibelius Office to Close http://createdigitalmusic.com/2012/07/sibelius-will-stay-with-avid-notation-remains-strategic ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] finale percussion rip-off of ghent font?
the finale percussion font is clearly based on -- some characters seem to be identical to -- ron caltibiano's ghent font. i have seen no mention of this having been purchased anywhere, or, if it was indeed purchased by makemusic, no credit given to the developer. of course when a corporation buys your work you don't always get the right of recognition in return, and maybe i am just being naïve, but i would have expected at least a mention somewhere. a search for ghent in the user manual brings up the finale percussion page as the only hit, but only because two symbols use the word ghent in their description, in reference to the notation conference, not the developer. corporation buys individual; individual can go suck eggs. nice one, makemusic. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] sibelius UK office closing (?)
On 2012-07-04 14:21, SN jef chippewa wrote: lots of inconsistent information but something to keep an eye / ear on... The main UK office (the original Sibelius office) is going to be closed by AVID, that was confirmed yesterday by Daniel Spreadbury. Unclear what's going to happen with all the staff at the UK office at this point. Although I was seeing something like this might happen, this was much more drastic than I could imagine. Finale needs competitors! Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] arranging and transcription pricing
Michael, So sorry to hear about your woes. Most of us have been there before. At this point, after the price has been set and the work mostly done, there isn't much to do except try to make the client see that the price IS actually fair. He must have had an idea of how much it would be in the end, since he was aware of how many measures and instruments he was asking for. A friend of mine once said that there are only three things that are important in a contract. Scope, time and money. Scope is the size of the work, time is the deadline, and of course money is the price, about which there can be no discussion after the contract is agreed upon, UNLESS there are changes to the scope and/or time, which there appear to have been! Since you were clear about how the work is charged, there is no problem here. After being burned a few times on revisions and changes, I now charge hourly for changes after ONE chance to sign off on the original work. Offering certain satisfaction to the client, as you do, was my policy at first, but then I realised that some clients were never satisfied, and some (even worse) changed their minds constantly after the work was done. He added pieces but didn't give you any more time, thus incurring overtime on your part. He must have known that adding work would raise the price (I hope you gave him an estimate up front? Something like 100 measures makes about 25 pages of score and 20 pages of parts, so 45 pages times $10 per page gives $450 for this piece.) There are a lot of ways to charge, but most importantly, you were upfront about it. Per filled measure (frame) which Finale can count for you. This rate charges the same for a plain whole note as for a florid measure with slurs, articulations, and expressions, but easy ones can cancel out difficult ones on a large project. Per score measure. This rate varies according to the number of staves (not instruments!) in the score, and includes part extraction. The drawback is that you are paid the same for lightly-scored passages as you are for tutti passages. Again, the easy ones make up for the hard ones in the long run. Per page, as you have done. Whole notes take up less room than florid measures, so the number of measures may vary from page to page, so this might be the fairest method, unless you have fixed numbers of measures per system as they do in film work and Broadway. You need to explain to him that the rate takes into account the fact that you don't have to re-enter the entries for the parts; just format. If you were to supply scores and someone else were to work the parts, he would have to pay that person for it and your score rate would be higher than your combined score and part rate. The New York musicians union has many different ways to calculate arranging (I list them above), but they suggest charging hourly for part extraction and layout in a computer program. This way, tough ones are charged more, while easy ones are cheaper. But the bottom line is you worked overtime for three weeks and made $1500. That's peanuts. I think the price is more than fair, unless you are a newbie who works at a snail's pace, and you don't sound like that. Oh yes, and don't apologise for necessary work you did. You were required to do it and you did it. I probably would have wanted the score to have ALL the piano parts, since the music director would want to know what was there, but that wasn't my decision. This is the best method I've found for pricing. You may find it useful too. http://dashes.com/anil/2005/05/pay-by-the-hour.html Christopher On 4-Jul-12, at 4-Jul-12 7:41 AM, delius...@aol.com wrote: Dear Finale List, This has always been a point of a big question mark with me, but I wanted to get some ideas of pricing structures, even gross, ballpark ones from what seems to be in the market today. I recently had a deal go very badly where I created over 100 pages of documents and now the client is balking at the price. I have always charged by the page, which I have always also said, per part, per score. I have charged the same price for part and score, and I have said that I will even do revisions after payment until the client is completely satisfied. What happened is the client suddenly viewed this, after the fact, as I was charging, twice per line. I said I had to do revisions and editing to all the parts, and that it wasn't just a magically created part (or unedited, for that matter), so time and care for page turns, adjusting of dynamics, etc. must be accounted for in some way. As far as I saw it, my price per page was so low that this was the only way I could make any money. In the case of this project, I was also doing arranging and not just transcription, which I had never charged differently for, so I came up with a higher rate, but kept the per part,
Re: [Finale] sibelius UK office closing (?)
Hi Jari, Yes, I saw that the UK office is closing, which I'm guessing means that virtually none of the current staff will be retained. I feel especially bad for Daniel Spreadbury, who was exceptionally diligent, accessible, hard-working, and a great ambassador for the product. Needless to say, despite the fact that Avid will retain ownership, moves like this don't do a lot to instill confidence in the future of the software. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 4 Jul 2012, at 9:37 AM, Jari Williamsson wrote: On 2012-07-04 14:21, SN jef chippewa wrote: lots of inconsistent information but something to keep an eye / ear on... The main UK office (the original Sibelius office) is going to be closed by AVID, that was confirmed yesterday by Daniel Spreadbury. Unclear what's going to happen with all the staff at the UK office at this point. Although I was seeing something like this might happen, this was much more drastic than I could imagine. Finale needs competitors! Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] arranging and transcription pricing
That's great advice, Christopher. It is certainly a situation I've been in. And thanks for that link to the 'pay by the hour' guy. That is indeed priceless. :) - Nigel Hanley On 04/07/2012, at 10:52 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Michael, So sorry to hear about your woes. Most of us have been there before. At this point, after the price has been set and the work mostly done, there isn't much to do except try to make the client see that the price IS actually fair. He must have had an idea of how much it would be in the end, since he was aware of how many measures and instruments he was asking for. A friend of mine once said that there are only three things that are important in a contract. Scope, time and money. Scope is the size of the work, time is the deadline, and of course money is the price, about which there can be no discussion after the contract is agreed upon, UNLESS there are changes to the scope and/or time, which there appear to have been! Since you were clear about how the work is charged, there is no problem here. After being burned a few times on revisions and changes, I now charge hourly for changes after ONE chance to sign off on the original work. Offering certain satisfaction to the client, as you do, was my policy at first, but then I realised that some clients were never satisfied, and some (even worse) changed their minds constantly after the work was done. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] sibelius UK office closing (?)
One quote from an anonymous Sibelius employee: This is heartbreaking, it took us 15 years to build this business and it took Avid 15 months to wreck it.” http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2012/7/3/avid-to-close-uk-sibelius-office.html Remember when Avid acquired Sibelius and the prevailing wisdom was that their deep pockets would mean more development money? Seriously, this situation sounds dire, obviously for the Sibelius employees who are having their jobs outsourced, and Sibelius users whose product's future is now in very uncertain hands, but also for notation software generally. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 4 Jul 2012, at 10:31 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Jari, Yes, I saw that the UK office is closing, which I'm guessing means that virtually none of the current staff will be retained. I feel especially bad for Daniel Spreadbury, who was exceptionally diligent, accessible, hard-working, and a great ambassador for the product. Needless to say, despite the fact that Avid will retain ownership, moves like this don't do a lot to instill confidence in the future of the software. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 4 Jul 2012, at 9:37 AM, Jari Williamsson wrote: On 2012-07-04 14:21, SN jef chippewa wrote: lots of inconsistent information but something to keep an eye / ear on... The main UK office (the original Sibelius office) is going to be closed by AVID, that was confirmed yesterday by Daniel Spreadbury. Unclear what's going to happen with all the staff at the UK office at this point. Although I was seeing something like this might happen, this was much more drastic than I could imagine. Finale needs competitors! Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] finale percussion rip-off of ghent font?
On 2012-07-04 14:26, SN jef chippewa wrote: the finale percussion font is clearly based on -- some characters seem to be identical to -- ron caltibiano's ghent font. i have seen no mention of this having been purchased anywhere, or, if it was indeed purchased by makemusic, no credit given to the developer. MM can license it without the things mentioned above. Do you see any mention of my name regarding the Space Systems plug-in in Fin2012? Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] arranging and transcription pricing
That came from my brother, who is a computer contractor. He gave me much excellent advice about contracts, including: Set your original price according to the specifications to be quite reasonable. This will get you the gig. However, for any changes to the specification, charge hourly up the wazoo, and point out this clause to the client in a stern voice. They will always laugh and say, oh, we won't be changing anything! Then they always do, and you make money to make up for the frustration. However, that clause is astonishingly effective at getting clients to get organised, which is in everyone's best interest. Structure the payments. You should have some upon signing, some partway through, and the last payment upon final delivery. Make sure that ONLY the last one is tied exactly to deliverables, otherwise they could cut you loose at any time and you will be out the work you did so far. For large projects, several payments are preferable. Make sure they know that work will STOP if any payment is missed or delayed. Clients are sometimes flaky in the music biz, and surprisingly so in the computer biz, too! Ten percent of your clients give you 90% of your problems. Cut them loose, or charge frustration rates to make up for it. Double your fees. he said. I boggled. Are you kidding? I'll lose half my clients! I'll wait for you to do the math... he replied. Once I got it, he added, If you aren't losing at least 1 out of 4 contracts because your price is too high, you aren't charging enough. And that doesn't do anyone any good. That was pretty deep, and I have been learning more about that ever since. It affects me, the clients, and all the other guys around me doing similar work. Christopher On 4-Jul-12, at 4-Jul-12 10:40 AM, Nigel Hanley wrote: That's great advice, Christopher. It is certainly a situation I've been in. And thanks for that link to the 'pay by the hour' guy. That is indeed priceless. :) - Nigel Hanley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] finale percussion rip-off of ghent font?
MM can license it without the things mentioned above. Do you see any mention of my name regarding the Space Systems plug-in in Fin2012? sure, but i don't have to agree with this way of doing things. and i do see a TGTools menu in the default PI bundle... MM could acknowledge it somewhere, i simply think that is good business policy. i suppose that in the end, it is what you negotiate, if you are in the position of doing so. for example, my name and weblink, as well as that of the artist who drew the hands from photos i took, appear in the new edition of pression (lachenmann) that is coming out this month. in notations 21, i was in fact the person who coordinated getting the brice pauset and mathias spahlinger examples in the book and simply didn't take care to make sure i got mentioned as the copyist / designer (i assumed it would be... silly, naïve little jeffy). it would be very relevant because the book was about graphic notation, not about publishing. in the case of pauset it is particularly absurd, because the example is a page i prepared when working on my spacing prefs for new music and despite discussions about me making a new version of the score, it never came to be; the only published example is hand-written, the version you can see in notations 21 exists *only* as a private example of my work. -- one summer in a music library job, i took example from the book publishing industry, where in good editions even the typesetter is mentioned. i started including a copyright page on the backside of the title page for various kinds of information, because i believe the production of the score is dependent on everyone who contributed, not just the publisher, to whom the composer has signed over their distribution rights. my copyright pages list: work title, composer name, ensemble type (string trio; large ensemble) - commissioner - performers of the premiere - any agency that somehow contributed (commissioning / festival grant etc.) - significant awards the piece has won - copyist in addition to simply recognizing and documenting properly, librarians sometimes have extreme difficulty processing music scores if they are unfamiliar with the work / composer. also this way the musicians that come across the score immediately have some information about the history and context of the piece. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] arranging and transcription pricing
i am seriously tempted to add exactly this phrase to my standard contract... For any corrections above and beyond that outlined in the present contract, as well as for spectacularly late delivery of final materials, the Client agrees to be charged up the wazoo, at an hourly rate of... However, for any changes to the specification, charge hourly up the wazoo, and point out this clause to the client in a stern voice. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] sibelius UK office closing (?)
On 7/4/2012 10:55 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: One quote from an anonymous Sibelius employee: This is heartbreaking, it took us 15 years to build this business and it took Avid 15 months to wreck it.” http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2012/7/3/avid-to-close-uk-sibelius-office.html Remember when Avid acquired Sibelius and the prevailing wisdom was that their deep pockets would mean more development money? Seriously, this situation sounds dire, obviously for the Sibelius employees who are having their jobs outsourced, and Sibelius users whose product's future is now in very uncertain hands, but also for notation software generally. [snip] True, but the current version works very well so if that's where the product stops, as long as operating systems allow it to run things should be good. And one can hope that if Avid is really cutting all that staff loose, perhaps they'll bring their expertise to MuseScore and raise its capabilities to a new level. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] sibelius UK office closing (?)
Really? They'd go from their paid former jobs to go work on a FREE piece of software….. That is fantasy. Avid is keeping Sibelius though…..so I doubt they would let key programmers go for it. On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 at 10:10 AM, David H. Bailey wrote: On 7/4/2012 10:55 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: One quote from an anonymous Sibelius employee: This is heartbreaking, it took us 15 years to build this business and it took Avid 15 months to wreck it.” http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2012/7/3/avid-to-close-uk-sibelius-office.html Remember when Avid acquired Sibelius and the prevailing wisdom was that their deep pockets would mean more development money? Seriously, this situation sounds dire, obviously for the Sibelius employees who are having their jobs outsourced, and Sibelius users whose product's future is now in very uncertain hands, but also for notation software generally. [snip] True, but the current version works very well so if that's where the product stops, as long as operating systems allow it to run things should be good. And one can hope that if Avid is really cutting all that staff loose, perhaps they'll bring their expertise to MuseScore and raise its capabilities to a new level. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com (mailto:dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
I'm noticing that several of the tools are now inoperable. MakeMusic MUST acquire and maintain TGTOOLS. I'm sure Garritan and MusicXML were not cheap. TGTOOLS would be much less. Henry Howey Sent from my iWhatever ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
Totally agree. TGTools is perhaps one of the only reasons I use Finale over Sibelius. They are absolutely essential. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath/Evil Genius http://www.ericdannewitz.com/ iMessage ericdannew...@me.com On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Henry Howey wrote: I'm noticing that several of the tools are now inoperable. MakeMusic MUST acquire and maintain TGTOOLS. I'm sure Garritan and MusicXML were not cheap. TGTOOLS would be much less. Henry Howey Sent from my iWhatever ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu (mailto:Finale@shsu.edu) http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
On Jul 4, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Henry Howey wrote: I'm noticing that several of the tools are now inoperable. MakeMusic MUST acquire and maintain TGTOOLS. Is there a way to make a me too list and send it to MM to emphasize this point? It may something about which all serious users of Finale can agree. Chuck I'm sure Garritan and MusicXML were not cheap. TGTOOLS would be much less. Henry Howey Sent from my iWhatever ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 8831 SE 12th Ave. Portland, OR 97202-7097 land line: (503) 954-2107 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com www.chuckisraelsjazz.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and F2012
Align dynamics works (whew!), but shift accidentals spins for a while and then dies (this is on Win7 x64). To my eye, the default spacing for accidentals in a chord is much too wide, and it's very painful to adjust these without an automated tool. Also, smart explosion usually crashes Finale completely, which means a lot more work generating parts -- at least until linked parts can gracefully handle multi-part staves, cues, and different music spacing for scores and parts. -Lee Lee Actor Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic http://www.leeactor.com -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of SN jef chippewa Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 3:55 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] TGTools and F2012 if anyone is using TGTools on 2012, have you had any issues with using shift/accidentals or align dynamics? i know some parts of the PI are not working properly (i had extremely bad things happen when running the update groups PI), but for these simple and straight-forward ones, i am hoping there is no problem...? cheers, jef ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
Indeed. It would have made MORE sense to acquire TGTools than the also-ran Garritan. -- On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: On Jul 4, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Henry Howey wrote: I'm noticing that several of the tools are now inoperable. MakeMusic MUST acquire and maintain TGTOOLS. Is there a way to make a me too list and send it to MM to emphasize this point? It may something about which all serious users of Finale can agree. Chuck I'm sure Garritan and MusicXML were not cheap. TGTOOLS would be much less. Henry Howey Sent from my iWhatever ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu (mailto:Finale@shsu.edu) http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 8831 SE 12th Ave. Portland, OR 97202-7097 land line: (503) 954-2107 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com (http://www.chuckisraels.com) www.chuckisraelsjazz.com (http://www.chuckisraelsjazz.com) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu (mailto:Finale@shsu.edu) http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
For the benefit of the MM employees on this list, I have to say that I completely agree. TGTools is an absolutely essential part of my workflow, in ways large and small. Aaron. On 7/4/2012 2:35 PM, Henry Howey wrote: I'm noticing that several of the tools are now inoperable. MakeMusic MUST acquire and maintain TGTOOLS. I'm sure Garritan and MusicXML were not cheap. TGTOOLS would be much less. Henry Howey Sent from my iWhatever ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] A font question
With every musical-theatre project I compose, I choose a distinct display font for song titles. I installed the font for my upcoming project (blossom.ttf), set up the project's template to use it in Finale 2010, and life was good. Then MakeMusic offered the great deal on 2012, so I bought and installed that, opened my project template in 2012, and Blossom won't show up in the font list. Other fonts I've installed since *do* show up, though. Any idea what the problem might be, or how to remedy it? Thanks, Clay (Fin2012, Mac OSX 10.6.8) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
I could not work without TGTools. And, the uncertainty that I read here about its functioning in later Finale versions is a big factor in why I have not upgraded for a while. Richard Yates -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Aaron Sherber Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 12:43 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b For the benefit of the MM employees on this list, I have to say that I completely agree. TGTools is an absolutely essential part of my workflow, in ways large and small. Aaron. On 7/4/2012 2:35 PM, Henry Howey wrote: I'm noticing that several of the tools are now inoperable. MakeMusic MUST acquire and maintain TGTOOLS. I'm sure Garritan and MusicXML were not cheap. TGTOOLS would be much less. Henry Howey Sent from my iWhatever ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
I tossed this out a couple weeks back and only heard from Chuck. Has anyone had ANY contact at all with Tobias regarding the status of TGTools? I wholeheartedly agree with everyone here who finds them indispensable to our work flow, and I would be more than happy to pay an upgrade fee to keep them running smoothly. Or, MakeMusic, buy out Tobias and keep these developed. J D Thomas ThomaStudios On Jul 4, 2012, at 12:43 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: For the benefit of the MM employees on this list, I have to say that I completely agree. TGTools is an absolutely essential part of my workflow, in ways large and small. Aaron. On 7/4/2012 2:35 PM, Henry Howey wrote: I'm noticing that several of the tools are now inoperable. MakeMusic MUST acquire and maintain TGTOOLS. I'm sure Garritan and MusicXML were not cheap. TGTOOLS would be much less. Henry Howey Sent from my iWhatever ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
I can't help thinking that if MM ever had a handle on how we worked with Finale, they might have integrated the kinds of plug-ins and innovations we have come to depend on Tobias for. They are indispensable, indeed. I would not assume that MM could pick up where he left off or maintain TGTools as is. MM has redesigned the staff systems in each of the last 2 versions among other improvements/changes. It is no wonder that TGTools doesn't work the same in this area without an update from Tobias. It seems to me that Jari is our future and is slowly providing all of the functionality of TGTools and then some that is up-to-date. It may be more beneficial for us to support his efforts than to look to MM to fill these needs. John Blane Blane Music Preparation 1649 Huntington Ln. Highland Park, IL 60035 847 579-9900 847 579-9903 fax www.BlaneMusic.com j...@blanemusic.com On Jul 4, 2012, at 1:35 PM, Henry Howey wrote: I'm noticing that several of the tools are now inoperable. MakeMusic MUST acquire and maintain TGTOOLS. I'm sure Garritan and MusicXML were not cheap. TGTOOLS would be much less. Henry Howey Sent from my iWhatever ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
On 2012-07-04 20:35, Henry Howey wrote: I'm noticing that several of the tools are now inoperable. MakeMusic MUST acquire and maintain TGTOOLS. I'm sure Garritan and MusicXML were not cheap. TGTOOLS would be much less. Gary and Michael became a part of the MM staff as part of the merger with Garritan and Recordare. That was an investment from MM's side, and current results are the free Dolet and the partnership with Abbey Road Studios, for example. Buying TGTools and then hire programmers to bring Tobias' sources up-to-date would IMHO cost MM much more than they would gain. If a third party looses interest in its customers, I really can't see why the main company has any responsibilities. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
i COMPLETELY disagree with the idea that it could benefit the user community if MM acquired TGTools, expecting it would simply become yet another sister in the family of dis-functionality that is never quite up to par. linked parts (partly broken in 6 versions now)? score manager? dozens of other recurring bugs that have not been fixed and probably hundreds that the average user might never or rarely encounter? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
Oh, and boy hasn't that resulted in a TON of great products and updates from MakeMusic….I mean, MusicXML is taking the world by storm….. -- On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Jari Williamsson wrote: On 2012-07-04 20:35, Henry Howey wrote: I'm noticing that several of the tools are now inoperable. MakeMusic MUST acquire and maintain TGTOOLS. I'm sure Garritan and MusicXML were not cheap. TGTOOLS would be much less. Gary and Michael became a part of the MM staff as part of the merger with Garritan and Recordare. That was an investment from MM's side, and current results are the free Dolet and the partnership with Abbey Road Studios, for example. Buying TGTools and then hire programmers to bring Tobias' sources up-to-date would IMHO cost MM much more than they would gain. If a third party looses interest in its customers, I really can't see why the main company has any responsibilities. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu (mailto:Finale@shsu.edu) http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
Oh, but that was what the yearly $129 for the latest Finale 20XX was for right? For them to fix bugs and re-introduce old features as new. How many times have they done slurs now in Finale……3 times or something? Every time it's called something new and listed as a new feature. Or the one year where one of the bullet points was that you could put the copyright symbol in….. -- On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 at 2:51 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote: i COMPLETELY disagree with the idea that it could benefit the user community if MM acquired TGTools, expecting it would simply become yet another sister in the family of dis-functionality that is never quite up to par. linked parts (partly broken in 6 versions now)? score manager? dozens of other recurring bugs that have not been fixed and probably hundreds that the average user might never or rarely encounter? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu (mailto:Finale@shsu.edu) http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
henry, which ones specifically are you noticing as problematic? i would not trust (and some have described probs) with parts-related tools, the reset staff groups has caused me very much anguish and i'm no longer certain about the layout tool (although it could be part of the probs i had with resetting staff groups, never managed to find out which did what). so far for me the following work: shift accis (not 100%, but it never was); align dynamics; tremolos worked well in 2010, haven't tested yet in 2012. let us know whcih ones you had probs with!!! I'm noticing that several of the tools are now inoperable. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and F2012
hey lee, i'm not getting this crash at all, are you using TGT 2.6? not sure it would make a diff, but if not, try updating. i got over my fears and installed it and today and it is running more or less as expected, and i think it is even faster on 2012 than it was on 2012, don't know if that is possible (?). i am however discovering that it isn't shifting on some notes, will explore more tomorrow, but maybe was only in the viola voices, so may have to do with how the PI reads the actual pitches... (?) Align dynamics works (whew!), but shift accidentals spins for a while and then dies (this is on Win7 x64). To my eye, the default spacing for accidentals in a chord is much too wide hm, sounds like you haven't explored the settings in the accis tab for accis between 4th, 5ths and 6ths, or the sixths tabs which has even more fine-tuning. also, you prob won't need it (the default settings work even with my custom font), but you can also adjust the values the PI considers to be the default widths of nat b # bb and x. or if you mean the finale default, you can change this in the doc options. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
man, for me the upgrade with finale water bottle was the awesomest. linked parts? meh. staff styles? meh. slurs that are note-attached instead of page-attached? mmight pay for that one. text and graphics tool improvements? meh. unicode support? double meh. i would give another 100 bucks for a sexy-ass water bottle again any day, i lost mine in a move sometime ago. Oh, but that was what the yearly $129 for the latest Finale 20XX was for right? For them to fix bugs and re-introduce old features as new. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
What about the T-Shirts -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath/Evil Genius http://www.ericdannewitz.com/ iMessage ericdannew...@me.com On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 at 3:24 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote: man, for me the upgrade with finale water bottle was the awesomest. linked parts? meh. staff styles? meh. slurs that are note-attached instead of page-attached? mmight pay for that one. text and graphics tool improvements? meh. unicode support? double meh. i would give another 100 bucks for a sexy-ass water bottle again any day, i lost mine in a move sometime ago. Oh, but that was what the yearly $129 for the latest Finale 20XX was for right? For them to fix bugs and re-introduce old features as new. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu (mailto:Finale@shsu.edu) http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
Hey, what about that super-ultra-cool cobalt-blue Pilsner glass? Now THAT was cool!! I still have mine, but only because I ordered the wife and son to keep their mitts off it. After all: considering the frustration arising FROM Finale at times, the LEAST they could do was to provide a vessel for booze to help dull the pain of dealing with program quirks. Come to think of it, they'd probably get near-universal upgrade-compliance if they came up with a Finale bong. Not that I'm suggesting or endorsing ANYTHING, mind you Les Marsden (209) 966-6988 (H) (559) 708-6027 (Emergency-only cell) 7145 Snyder Creek Road Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 Music AND Mariposa? Ahhh, Paradise! Chairman, Mariposa County Planning Commission President, Mariposa County Arts Council, Incorporated Board Director, Economic Development Corporation of Mariposa County Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Mariposa Symphony Orchestra: http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html Les Marsden - Former Career (retired due to disability) page: http://tinyurl.com/ygpj7og - Original Message - From: SN jef chippewa shirl...@newmusicnotation.com To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b man, for me the upgrade with finale water bottle was the awesomest. linked parts? meh. staff styles? meh. slurs that are note-attached instead of page-attached? mmight pay for that one. text and graphics tool improvements? meh. unicode support? double meh. i would give another 100 bucks for a sexy-ass water bottle again any day, i lost mine in a move sometime ago. Oh, but that was what the yearly $129 for the latest Finale 20XX was for right? For them to fix bugs and re-introduce old features as new.Signature HEAVYscaledFIRST NAME ONLY.jpg___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
ja man, i still have my black F2004 T. keeping it safe for another 30 years when i will bring it out and much younger women will run to my side in th(r)ongs because i will be so übercööl and retro. by then, the bong PI lee spoke of will *finally* be working properly and all the years of kludging, fussing, cussing will be nothing but a meaningless blur of history... for an evening at least. What about the T-Shirts ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTOOLS in 2012b
Whaaa? Staff Styles are AWESOME! They seem to have fixed in 2012b the score styles not showing up properly in parts. Note-attached slurs, also awesome (though not completely problem-free, but hey, whaddya want?) Text, well, I am still waiting for partial point sizes and centre justification in expressions. Christopher On 4-Jul-12, at 4-Jul-12 6:24 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote: man, for me the upgrade with finale water bottle was the awesomest. linked parts? meh. staff styles? meh. slurs that are note-attached instead of page-attached? mmight pay for that one. text and graphics tool improvements? meh. unicode support? double meh. i would give another 100 bucks for a sexy-ass water bottle again any day, i lost mine in a move sometime ago. Oh, but that was what the yearly $129 for the latest Finale 20XX was for right? For them to fix bugs and re-introduce old features as new. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and F2012
I'm using the latest TGT, which on Win is 2.61, and the shift accidentals plugin doesn't work at all for me. My comment on default spacing of accidentals being too wide was meant to refer to the Finale default for notes a fifth or sixth apart, which is what I need the TGT plugin for. It helps some if I change the default spacing between accidentals in doc options from 8 to 5 EVPUs, but this one-size-fits-all approach isn't nearly as good as the plugin was. I want my plugin back! BTW, the plugin never did work properly for chords of more than 2 notes, not a particularly frequent occurrence for me. It does seem very strange that this plugin chokes on my system and not on yours. -Lee -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of SN jef chippewa Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 3:10 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] TGTools and F2012 hey lee, i'm not getting this crash at all, are you using TGT 2.6? not sure it would make a diff, but if not, try updating. i got over my fears and installed it and today and it is running more or less as expected, and i think it is even faster on 2012 than it was on 2012, don't know if that is possible (?). i am however discovering that it isn't shifting on some notes, will explore more tomorrow, but maybe was only in the viola voices, so may have to do with how the PI reads the actual pitches... (?) Align dynamics works (whew!), but shift accidentals spins for a while and then dies (this is on Win7 x64). To my eye, the default spacing for accidentals in a chord is much too wide hm, sounds like you haven't explored the settings in the accis tab for accis between 4th, 5ths and 6ths, or the sixths tabs which has even more fine-tuning. also, you prob won't need it (the default settings work even with my custom font), but you can also adjust the values the PI considers to be the default widths of nat b # bb and x. or if you mean the finale default, you can change this in the doc options. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] GROUPS, barlines, instr names
Here's a question I've been meaning to ask for years and never have. I'm working with MacFin2011. On piano parts, some grand staves have barlines reaching through the staves (treble and bass) the way I want them to, but other systems, later on in the part have barlines only on EACH staff. What is the remedy for that? In Staff Tool/Groups I have designated I want barlines THROUGH both staves. Also, so systems have have Piano out to the left. In Staff Tool/Groups I have designated No Name, also, in the Staff dialog, I have no name. All the best, KIM R ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] A font question
Jari W. offered this the other day. Not sure if this is at all the same, or if his solution applies to anything other than music fonts. Maybe someone else can chime in. On 2012-06-27 19:43, Chuck Israels wrote: I am out of town for a week but would be interested to hear if the Bill Duncan FAN issue has been resolved, so that I will know what to do when I get home. There were issues with some symbols showing up in slot positions in the editing matrix that were literally off the grid and therefore next to impossible to access in order edit the FAN files. But that's caused by the font not being listed in MacSymbolFonts.txt. Add any 3rd party music fonts you use to that file, and the problem will go away. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Clay Zambo cza...@mac.com wrote: With every musical-theatre project I compose, I choose a distinct display font for song titles. I installed the font for my upcoming project (blossom.ttf), set up the project's template to use it in Finale 2010, and life was good. Then MakeMusic offered the great deal on 2012, so I bought and installed that, opened my project template in 2012, and Blossom won't show up in the font list. Other fonts I've installed since *do* show up, though. Any idea what the problem might be, or how to remedy it? Thanks, Clay (Fin2012, Mac OSX 10.6.8) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
