Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Jon Bradley]

On May 2, 2007, at 10:15 PM, Andrew Muller wrote:

Ooh, does this mean that they forgot to announce IE for the Mac at  
MIX???


Thank goodness they won't... I'd be afraid of all the new CSS hacks  
I'd have to learn.


Oh, and all those other hacked variations on standard languages...

- jon

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Bjorn Schultheiss]

Time to go home... Never!

I'm with Weyert on this one as well, Browser restrictions make my job  
difficult.



Bjorn

On 03/05/2007, at 5:52 PM, Weyert de Boer wrote:


No problem! You got my email address. Remind me offlist and I will
respond tomorrow. Time to go home. :)

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Weyert de Boer]

No problem! You got my email address. Remind me offlist and I will 
respond tomorrow. Time to go home. :)

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

Weyert,

I'm curious to learn more about what you mean by the "browser part". If we
could take this offline (I'm concious of the mail-list's context) and anyone
else for that matter would throw there pain points in this regard my way I
can feed it back to th SL Team.

Scott Barnes
Developer Evangelist
Microsoft

On 5/3/07, Weyert de Boer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Hi Scott!

I just don't like the browser part of it. Makes it all too complex, same
from RIAs in Flex/Flash, though. Desktop Applications like Apollo and
WPF/Avalon are more my thing.

Yes, expression/Web looks nice even got good reviews from a popular
magazine :) Trillion times better then FrontPage, even MSFT themself
know that app sucked...

Yours,
Weyert

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Weyert de Boer]

Hi Scott!

I just don't like the browser part of it. Makes it all too complex, same 
from RIAs in Flex/Flash, though. Desktop Applications like Apollo and 
WPF/Avalon are more my thing.

Yes, expression/Web looks nice even got good reviews from a popular 
magazine :) Trillion times better then FrontPage, even MSFT themself 
know that app sucked...

Yours,
Weyert

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

Cool, if you see Silverlight as another piece in your online delivery
solution great, if you think it's pure evil - don't use it. It's great to
have  choice of offerings like this and more power to one and all :)

p.s
Frontpage = Expression Web in terms of the next generation of Web Designer
tool for Microsoft. If you want developer base functionaity (C# etc), go
with Visual Studio Web Express etc..




On 5/3/07, Weyert de Boer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  I dont really care about SivlerLight I want Ultimate Experience (WPF) on

the Mac! All those stupid online applications 






--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Weyert de Boer]

I dont really care about SivlerLight I want Ultimate Experience (WPF) on 
the Mac! All those stupid online applications 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[dorkie dork from dorktown]

erm, i dont think so. what about visual interdev? you say it got reborn. no
its not frontpage. its a completely new and different program. unless you
can run your frontpage files in it Expression Web != frontpage.

you wrote,
I'll also talk more about how Adobe CS3 products can work with Expression
tools etc bottom line, there is no winner, just mashups of cool RIA
technologies.

no. thats not true. when i say, i want to choose a technology to use whoever
i choose to use is the winner of my decision. so if silverlight doesn't
support the features i need and the platforms i need then it will never
"win" my bid. if it doesn't support *me* and my project then its not even in
the running.

ps it could mash together with other apps if i choose multiple technologies
but i want one tool to develop in. i hate the mashup mash up development the
web has created. html talking to css talks to javascript talks to ajax talks
to java talks to database. were sending messages all over the place.
although flex helps this you still have 1 dummy html wrapper + 1 swf + 1
server side technology + 1 optional db. i had to give a swf to another
developer at work. it was loading in all the images and css. we had run into
path issues so i asked if he wanted everything embedded. i gave him one file
from then on. from 30 files to 1 swf.

On 5/2/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




On 5/3/07, sher_ali2004 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   Never trust Microsoft products and projects. They bring products and
> destroy those products themselves because of their marketing strategy.
> They never succeeded to run a product more than few years except
> Window OS and MS Office.
>
> If you put some efforts in learning a technology than you would never
> want to loss.
>
> What happend to FrontPage? What happened to ASP ?
>

Frontpage is now - Expression Web (re-modeled and re-done to make it
smarter etc).
ASP Classic got moved to ASP.NET, ASP.NET 2.0 is extremely popular for the
RAD approach it provides. Now we have ASP Futures release which combined
with Silverlight is pushing this evolution forward.

Microsoft are extremely committed to the Apple platform, if we weren't you
would would not of seen Silverlights launchpad event to be demo'd on a Mac.
It's about a series of channelled offerings and Apple users aren't being
left out on the Mac.

Again there are three tiers of offerings here, Ultimate Experience (WPF),
Great Experience (Silverlight) and Good Experience (AJAX/HTML). Our value
proposition to developers in the current .NET space that they have the
ability to move between these three tiers using their C#/VB.NET passports
mixed with XAML. Now if folks want to jump on board from the Flex world,
that's fine but I doubt Flex will "die" simply because Microsoft is in the
room, as Scott.G said this isn't a zero sum game,no two brands will "own"
the market.Silverlight and Live.com are a solution service that we think
is quite exciting and I think there is room for combination of both brands.

In the interest of killing such debates, I'm keen to spinup some
combination applications of FLEX + Silverlight working together. I'll also
talk more about how Adobe CS3 products can work with Expression tools etc
bottom line, there is no winner, just mashups of cool RIA technologies.

Scott Barnes
Developer Evangelist
Microsoft

 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Weyert de Boer]

You got to love how easy it is to obtain artwork from the XAML files 
used by the demos of Silverlight ;) Time to create some evil version of 
it. :>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Andrew Muller]

"Microsoft are extremely committed to the Apple platform"

Ooh, does this mean that they forgot to announce IE for the Mac at MIX???

;-)

On 03/05/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




On 5/3/07, sher_ali2004 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   Never trust Microsoft products and projects. They bring products and
> destroy those products themselves because of their marketing strategy.
> They never succeeded to run a product more than few years except
> Window OS and MS Office.
>
> If you put some efforts in learning a technology than you would never
> want to loss.
>
> What happend to FrontPage? What happened to ASP ?
>

Frontpage is now - Expression Web (re-modeled and re-done to make it
smarter etc).
ASP Classic got moved to ASP.NET, ASP.NET 2.0 is extremely popular for the
RAD approach it provides. Now we have ASP Futures release which combined
with Silverlight is pushing this evolution forward.

Microsoft are extremely committed to the Apple platform, if we weren't you
would would not of seen Silverlights launchpad event to be demo'd on a Mac.
It's about a series of channelled offerings and Apple users aren't being
left out on the Mac.

Again there are three tiers of offerings here, Ultimate Experience (WPF),
Great Experience (Silverlight) and Good Experience (AJAX/HTML). Our value
proposition to developers in the current .NET space that they have the
ability to move between these three tiers using their C#/VB.NET passports
mixed with XAML. Now if folks want to jump on board from the Flex world,
that's fine but I doubt Flex will "die" simply because Microsoft is in the
room, as Scott.G said this isn't a zero sum game,no two brands will "own"
the market.Silverlight and Live.com are a solution service that we think
is quite exciting and I think there is room for combination of both brands.

In the interest of killing such debates, I'm keen to spinup some
combination applications of FLEX + Silverlight working together. I'll also
talk more about how Adobe CS3 products can work with Expression tools etc
bottom line, there is no winner, just mashups of cool RIA technologies.

Scott Barnes
Developer Evangelist
Microsoft

 





---
Andrew Muller
http://www.webqem.com

linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/1/151/905

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[shardoolkarnik]

Now, I am really confused! I am going to look into Silverlight and see 
if it makes sense to switch. The only thing I love is the IDE and ease 
of development.

Any suggestions?

- Nick

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Gill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's about whether or not Silverlight will kill Flex.   :) (subject 
line)
> 
> Seriously .. this conversation has been going on for days .. would be 
> impossible to keep it all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > When editing out content, can you keep the context of the previous
> > message? I have no idea what this one is about :)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

On 5/3/07, sher_ali2004 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Never trust Microsoft products and projects. They bring products and
destroy those products themselves because of their marketing strategy.
They never succeeded to run a product more than few years except
Window OS and MS Office.

If you put some efforts in learning a technology than you would never
want to loss.

What happend to FrontPage? What happened to ASP ?



Frontpage is now - Expression Web (re-modeled and re-done to make it smarter
etc).
ASP Classic got moved to ASP.NET, ASP.NET 2.0 is extremely popular for the
RAD approach it provides. Now we have ASP Futures release which combined
with Silverlight is pushing this evolution forward.

Microsoft are extremely committed to the Apple platform, if we weren't you
would would not of seen Silverlights launchpad event to be demo'd on a Mac.
It's about a series of channelled offerings and Apple users aren't being
left out on the Mac.

Again there are three tiers of offerings here, Ultimate Experience (WPF),
Great Experience (Silverlight) and Good Experience (AJAX/HTML). Our value
proposition to developers in the current .NET space that they have the
ability to move between these three tiers using their C#/VB.NET passports
mixed with XAML. Now if folks want to jump on board from the Flex world,
that's fine but I doubt Flex will "die" simply because Microsoft is in the
room, as Scott.G said this isn't a zero sum game,no two brands will "own"
the market.Silverlight and Live.com are a solution service that we think is
quite exciting and I think there is room for combination of both brands.

In the interest of killing such debates, I'm keen to spinup some combination
applications of FLEX + Silverlight working together. I'll also talk more
about how Adobe CS3 products can work with Expression tools etc bottom line,
there is no winner, just mashups of cool RIA technologies.

Scott Barnes
Developer Evangelist
Microsoft

RE: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Peter]

I have been going through some of the Silverlight material and video’s, and
the way they have engineered the dlr and the openness with which ms is
approaching this “market” does seem fundamentally different from what I have
seen in the past from ms (just try to imagine ms open sourcing anything
substantial 5 years ago).  Also given the people they have hired recently I
do have the impression the commitment is substantial.

 

Whether there is anything sustainable in there remains to be seen (but that
is true for life in general).

 

And of course, it will not kill Flex. Actually my guess is it will make Flex
stronger. 

 

  _  

From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of sher_ali2004
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 7:24 PM
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our
beloved Flex ?

 

Never trust Microsoft products and projects. They bring products and
destroy those products themselves because of their marketing strategy.
They never succeeded to run a product more than few years except
Window OS and MS Office.

If you put some efforts in learning a technology than you would never
want to loss.

What happend to FrontPage? What happened to ASP ?

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
slangeberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> If you ever watch the developer videos on Channel 9, you'll see that
many MS
> devs have macbooks (or whatever they're called) sitting on their desks!
> 
> -Scott
> 
> On 4/29/07, dorkie dork from dorktown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > the problem with microsoft is they live in a bubble. they live
in their
> > own little world where only windows exists. well, at the college i
visit
> > half the people have macs. i am in a college coffee / study shop
with about
> > 150 people and half have macs. this all changed when the mac books
came out
> > last year. long time windows users switched. my roomate uses a mac
and loves
> > it. not everyone uses windows.
> >
> > i dont' trust their cross compatible promises either. what if they
do make
> > version on mac. anyone remember ie on mac? they need to prove they
have
> > changed the way they do things (and think) before i would ever
trust them.
> >
> > since i'm ranting, it seems, that users opinions don't matter. all
they
> > need to do is listen to their users and i do not get that from
them. vista
> > is an example of them living in a bubble. so as the web changes i
do not
> > think silverlight will progress when they do not listen to the users.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/29/07, simonjpalmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Does C# kill Java?
> > > Does IE kill Firefox?
> > > Does SQLServer kill Oracle?
> > > Does Windows kill UNIX?
> > > Will Silverlight kill Flex?
> > >
> > > From my 20 odd years of software development, during which time the
> > > Microsoft hegemony has been at its apogee, none of the above are
true.
> > > In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would
> > > choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left.
> > >
> > > Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop
> > > operating systems. Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop
> > > software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it
reign as
> > > such. Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your
> > > average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty
> > > good (c'mon, be generous).
> > >
> > > I regret deeply that the rest of the world doesn't have a house full
> > > of beautiful, stable, simple Macs like I do, but the reality is that
> > > they don't as Jason points out. Instead the three or four computers
> > > the normal person interacts with in their daily lives are almost
> > > exclusively running Windows (even the ATM machines and tills at the
> > > supermarket). Not a pleasant truth, but a truth nonetheless. If you
> > > are looking for broad adoption and commercial success as a software
> > > company you start with Windows.
> > >
> > > The wonderful reality, however, is that the software industry, like
> > > all others in the history of human endeavour, thrives on competition
> > > and there is space for more than one company/product/offering to
> > > survive. Adobe are not going to be Microsoft. THANK GOD! They have
> > > and in my opinion will always have, a distinct and separate
offering.
> &

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[sher_ali2004]

Never trust Microsoft products and projects. They bring products and
destroy those products themselves because of their marketing strategy.
They never succeeded to run a product more than few years except
Window OS and MS Office.

If you put some efforts in learning a technology than you would never
want to loss.

What happend to FrontPage? What happened to ASP ?



--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, slangeberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> If you ever watch the developer videos on Channel 9, you'll see that
many MS
> devs have macbooks (or whatever they're called) sitting on their desks!
> 
> -Scott
> 
> On 4/29/07, dorkie dork from dorktown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >   the problem with microsoft is they live in a bubble. they live
in their
> > own little world where only windows exists. well, at the college i
visit
> > half the people have macs. i am in a college coffee / study shop
with about
> > 150 people and half have macs. this all changed when the mac books
came out
> > last year. long time windows users switched. my roomate uses a mac
and loves
> > it. not everyone uses windows.
> >
> > i dont' trust their cross compatible promises either. what if they
do make
> > version on mac. anyone remember ie on mac? they need to prove they
have
> > changed the way they do things (and think) before i would ever
trust them.
> >
> > since i'm ranting, it seems, that users opinions don't matter. all
they
> > need to do is listen to their users and i do not get that from
them. vista
> > is an example of them living in a bubble. so as the web changes i
do not
> > think silverlight will progress when they do not listen to the users.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/29/07, simonjpalmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >   Does C# kill Java?
> > > Does IE kill Firefox?
> > > Does SQLServer kill Oracle?
> > > Does Windows kill UNIX?
> > > Will Silverlight kill Flex?
> > >
> > > From my 20 odd years of software development, during which time the
> > > Microsoft hegemony has been at its apogee, none of the above are
true.
> > > In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would
> > > choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left.
> > >
> > > Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop
> > > operating systems. Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop
> > > software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it
reign as
> > > such. Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your
> > > average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty
> > > good (c'mon, be generous).
> > >
> > > I regret deeply that the rest of the world doesn't have a house full
> > > of beautiful, stable, simple Macs like I do, but the reality is that
> > > they don't as Jason points out. Instead the three or four computers
> > > the normal person interacts with in their daily lives are almost
> > > exclusively running Windows (even the ATM machines and tills at the
> > > supermarket). Not a pleasant truth, but a truth nonetheless. If you
> > > are looking for broad adoption and commercial success as a software
> > > company you start with Windows.
> > >
> > > The wonderful reality, however, is that the software industry, like
> > > all others in the history of human endeavour, thrives on competition
> > > and there is space for more than one company/product/offering to
> > > survive. Adobe are not going to be Microsoft. THANK GOD! They have
> > > and in my opinion will always have, a distinct and separate
offering.
> > > If they can't retain that differentiation then they don't deserve to
> > > remain in business and the market will take care of them.
> > >
> > > So this is a bit of a silly thread as far as I am concerned. The
> > > answer for me is clearly No for all the same reasons that Microsoft
> > > haven't killed any of the other things on the list at the top. They
> > > might try, but I think they should be more worried about Google and
> > > web based desktop software than Adobe and the flash player.
> > >
> > > Simon
> > >
> > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
, Bjorn
> > > Schultheiss
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hey Jason,
> > > >
> > > > Even if 90% of internet's users are running Windows, how many
> > > > millions aren't..
> > > > If you can deploy applications that is guaranteed to only be
used by
> > > > Windows users, well good luck to you.
> > > >
> > > > Here we target creatives in the advertising industry and I
don't have
> > > > that luxury.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Bjorn Schultheiss
> > > > Senior Developer
> > > > 
> > > > Personalised Communication Power
> > > >
> > > > Level 2, 31 Coventry St.
> > > > South Melbourne 3205,
> > > > VIC Australia
> > > >
> > > > T: +61 3 9674 7400
> > > > F: +61 3 9645 9160
> > > > W: http://www.qdc.net.au
> > > >
> > > > ((This transmission is confidential and intended
solely
> > > > for the person or organiz

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[slangeberg]

If you ever watch the developer videos on Channel 9, you'll see that many MS
devs have macbooks (or whatever they're called) sitting on their desks!

-Scott

On 4/29/07, dorkie dork from dorktown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


  the problem with microsoft is they live in a bubble. they live in their
own little world where only windows exists. well, at the college i visit
half the people have macs. i am in a college coffee / study shop with about
150 people and half have macs. this all changed when the mac books came out
last year. long time windows users switched. my roomate uses a mac and loves
it. not everyone uses windows.

i dont' trust their cross compatible promises either. what if they do make
version on mac. anyone remember ie on mac? they need to prove they have
changed the way they do things (and think) before i would ever trust them.

since i'm ranting, it seems, that users opinions don't matter. all they
need to do is listen to their users and i do not get that from them. vista
is an example of them living in a bubble. so as the web changes i do not
think silverlight will progress when they do not listen to the users.



On 4/29/07, simonjpalmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   Does C# kill Java?
> Does IE kill Firefox?
> Does SQLServer kill Oracle?
> Does Windows kill UNIX?
> Will Silverlight kill Flex?
>
> From my 20 odd years of software development, during which time the
> Microsoft hegemony has been at its apogee, none of the above are true.
> In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would
> choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left.
>
> Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop
> operating systems. Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop
> software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it reign as
> such. Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your
> average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty
> good (c'mon, be generous).
>
> I regret deeply that the rest of the world doesn't have a house full
> of beautiful, stable, simple Macs like I do, but the reality is that
> they don't as Jason points out. Instead the three or four computers
> the normal person interacts with in their daily lives are almost
> exclusively running Windows (even the ATM machines and tills at the
> supermarket). Not a pleasant truth, but a truth nonetheless. If you
> are looking for broad adoption and commercial success as a software
> company you start with Windows.
>
> The wonderful reality, however, is that the software industry, like
> all others in the history of human endeavour, thrives on competition
> and there is space for more than one company/product/offering to
> survive. Adobe are not going to be Microsoft. THANK GOD! They have
> and in my opinion will always have, a distinct and separate offering.
> If they can't retain that differentiation then they don't deserve to
> remain in business and the market will take care of them.
>
> So this is a bit of a silly thread as far as I am concerned. The
> answer for me is clearly No for all the same reasons that Microsoft
> haven't killed any of the other things on the list at the top. They
> might try, but I think they should be more worried about Google and
> web based desktop software than Adobe and the flash player.
>
> Simon
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , Bjorn
> Schultheiss
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hey Jason,
> >
> > Even if 90% of internet's users are running Windows, how many
> > millions aren't..
> > If you can deploy applications that is guaranteed to only be used by
> > Windows users, well good luck to you.
> >
> > Here we target creatives in the advertising industry and I don't have
> > that luxury.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Bjorn Schultheiss
> > Senior Developer
> > 
> > Personalised Communication Power
> >
> > Level 2, 31 Coventry St.
> > South Melbourne 3205,
> > VIC Australia
> >
> > T: +61 3 9674 7400
> > F: +61 3 9645 9160
> > W: http://www.qdc.net.au
> >
> > ((This transmission is confidential and intended solely
> > for the person or organization to whom it is addressed. It may
> > contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the
> > intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any
> > action in reliance on it. If you believe you received this
> > transmission in error, please notify the sender.---))
> >
> >
> >
> > One person wrote:
> > > Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows.
> Macs
> > > have IE working OK.
> >
> > Another responded:
> > >>Think again.
> > "Think again?" What kind of an argument is that? People keep
> > brining up certain technlogies not working on Mac OS or Linux as a
> > bad thing. Personally, I've never bought into the, "that technology
> > does not support obscure browser "X" or non-Windows operating system
> > "Y" and therefore is doomed to fail" argument. As much as

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Tom Chiverton]

On Wednesday 02 May 2007, emendezgonzalez wrote:
> > Why would you want to do it though ?
> I was suggesting an "escape route" just in case Adobe felt the heat
> just too close.

Pfft.


-- 
Tom Chiverton
Helping to dramatically maximize eigth-generation eyeballs
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com



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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Tom Chiverton]

On Tuesday 01 May 2007, Adam Reynolds wrote:
> When editing out content, can you keep the context of the previous
> message? I have no idea what this one is about :)

Maybe you should turn threading on in Thunderbird.

-- 
Tom Chiverton
Helping to vitalistically harness cross-platform e-tailers
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com



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James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.  A list of members is available 
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This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be 
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[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[emendezgonzalez]

> Why would you want to do it though ?

I don't want to do it but, perhaps, Adobe does.

I was suggesting an "escape route" just in case Adobe felt the heat
just too close. It comes with its own set of problems, namely that the
Flash virtual machine will not be the "jewel of the crown" anymore but
Flex. In the end, Silverlight is another runtime virtual machine and
compilers can be directed to it.

Regards,

Eduardo.

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Nancy Gill]

It's about whether or not Silverlight will kill Flex.   :) (subject line)

Seriously .. this conversation has been going on for days .. would be 
impossible to keep it all.




> When editing out content, can you keep the context of the previous
> message? I have no idea what this one is about :)
>
>
>
> --



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[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[simonjpalmer]

isn't that what the previous message button is for ;-)

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Adam Reynolds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Tom Chiverton wrote:
> > On Monday 30 Apr 2007, emendezgonzalez wrote:
> >   
> >> Just an idea,
> >> 
> >
> > Why would you want to do it though ?
> >
> >   
> When editing out content, can you keep the context of the previous 
> message? I have no idea what this one is about :)
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Adam Reynolds]

Tom Chiverton wrote:
> On Monday 30 Apr 2007, emendezgonzalez wrote:
>   
>> Just an idea,
>> 
>
> Why would you want to do it though ?
>
>   
When editing out content, can you keep the context of the previous 
message? I have no idea what this one is about :)



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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Tom Chiverton]

On Monday 30 Apr 2007, emendezgonzalez wrote:
> Just an idea,

Why would you want to do it though ?

-- 
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Helping to continually drive ubiquitous developments
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com



This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.

Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and 
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James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.  A list of members is available 
for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation 
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This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be 
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[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[emendezgonzalez]

Mmmm, let's see:

+ Flex (generates) Actionscript (runs-in) Flash

So, if:

+ Flex (generated) Javascript + WPF/E (run-in) Silverlight


Just an idea,

Eduardo.

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[simonjpalmer]

...and therein lies another horrible truth, the MBP hardware is a
winner, OS/X is not.  I myself am using a MBP and it is awesome, but
guess what, I'm not using OS/X (although I return for doses of
sanity).  My anecdotal study of the three Starbucks in walking
distance from my house shows 75% of people with MBP's.  Closer
inspection reveals 90% running Windows.  Bottom line is that (normal)
people don't really care what software they are running as long as it
is good enough, and Windows has made this a reality by ubiquity, not
excellence.  It is shameful that you need so much processing power
just for the operating system, it is lazy coding, but who really
cares?  Ask your Mum/Mom whether she is bothered whether she uses
flash or silverlight.

And the previous poster was right, Microsoft do live in their own
bubble and their intellectual protectionism is shocking, especially to
a European mindset (why don't they just participate rather than trying
to own absolutely everything?).  However, when your bubble includes
85% of all computers ever built, it is understandable that life
outside the bubble may seem somewhat irrelevant, especially if your
goals are commercial rather than principled, which Microsoft's
undoubtedly are.

However, they do have a serious credibility issue in the software
development community as this thread (and our avid support of Flash)
is a minor testimony to.  When I'm placing a trust bet I don't choose
Microsoft.  As a result I don't think Microsoft are going to retain
their position of dominance forever as more and more becomes available
through open source initiatives.  But the Microsoft monster is here
for now and it is smarter as a commercial software developer to use
the fact to your advantage than to stubbornly attempt to ignore the
reality.  

And speaking of the tao of programming, I think the only haiku worth
remembering in commercial software is that best never wins, and
neither does first.  As a species we are optimised for compromise,
evolution insists on it.


--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Weyert de Boer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Bjorn Schultheiss wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I am of the same opinion.
> > 
> > At the recent WebDU conference I spotted 1 presenter with a PC
notebook, 
> > all the rest were macbooks. 
> 
> Yeah, I was using Windows on my MBP ;-)
> 
> > I am quite a fan of a lot of non-windows based software, and i enjoy 
> > building flash-based applications that can be deployed on either OS.
> 
> Indeed! Developing GUI components for Windows is fun too, though. 
> Creating Grid components and such!
> 
> Yours,
> Weyert de Boer
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Manish Jethani]

On 4/30/07, simonjpalmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does C# kill Java?
> Does IE kill Firefox?
> Does SQLServer kill Oracle?
> Does Windows kill UNIX?
> Will Silverlight kill Flex?

The answer exists only in Tao.

http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Weyert de Boer]

>> Yeah, I was using Windows on my MBP ;-)
> Yes i noticed. mbp is the nicest notebook IMO.

Yeah, nice ones indeed! And fast too.


> WPF is cool for sure, silverlight not so much.
> At the moment Flash 9 and PV3D seems more interesting than silverlight.

Yes, thats what I am thinking too! It would be nice to have the real WPF 
under MacOSX instead of only a browser plugin.

Yours,
Weyert de Boer

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Bjorn Schultheiss]

Yeah, I was using Windows on my MBP ;-)


Yes i noticed. mbp is the nicest notebook IMO.



Indeed! Developing GUI components for Windows is fun too, though.
Creating Grid components and such!


WPF is cool for sure, silverlight not so much.
At the moment Flash 9 and PV3D seems more interesting than silverlight.


regards,

Bjorn





On 30/04/2007, at 2:11 PM, Weyert de Boer wrote:


Bjorn Schultheiss wrote:
>
>
> I am of the same opinion.
>
> At the recent WebDU conference I spotted 1 presenter with a PC  
notebook,

> all the rest were macbooks.

Yeah, I was using Windows on my MBP ;-)

> I am quite a fan of a lot of non-windows based software, and i enjoy
> building flash-based applications that can be deployed on either OS.

Indeed! Developing GUI components for Windows is fun too, though.
Creating Grid components and such!

Yours,
Weyert de Boer

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Weyert de Boer]

Bjorn Schultheiss wrote:
> 
> 
> I am of the same opinion.
> 
> At the recent WebDU conference I spotted 1 presenter with a PC notebook, 
> all the rest were macbooks. 

Yeah, I was using Windows on my MBP ;-)

> I am quite a fan of a lot of non-windows based software, and i enjoy 
> building flash-based applications that can be deployed on either OS.

Indeed! Developing GUI components for Windows is fun too, though. 
Creating Grid components and such!

Yours,
Weyert de Boer

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Bjorn Schultheiss]

I am of the same opinion.
At the recent WebDU conference I spotted 1 presenter with a PC  
notebook, all the rest were macbooks.


I am quite a fan of a lot of non-windows based software, and i enjoy  
building flash-based applications that can be deployed on either OS.




regards,

Bjorn

On 30/04/2007, at 1:00 PM, dorkie dork from dorktown wrote:

the problem with microsoft is they live in a bubble. they live in  
their own little world where only windows exists. well, at the  
college i visit half the people have macs. i am in a college  
coffee / study shop with about 150 people and half have macs. this  
all changed when the mac books came out last year. long time  
windows users switched. my roomate uses a mac and loves it. not  
everyone uses windows.


i dont' trust their cross compatible promises either. what if they  
do make version on mac. anyone remember ie on mac? they need to  
prove they have changed the way they do things (and think) before i  
would ever trust them.


since i'm ranting, it seems, that users opinions don't matter. all  
they need to do is listen to their users and i do not get that from  
them. vista is an example of them living in a bubble. so as the web  
changes i do not think silverlight will progress when they do not  
listen to the users.




On 4/29/07, simonjpalmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Does C# kill Java?
Does IE kill Firefox?
Does SQLServer kill Oracle?
Does Windows kill UNIX?
Will Silverlight kill Flex?

From my 20 odd years of software development, during which time the
Microsoft hegemony has been at its apogee, none of the above are true.
In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would
choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left.

Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop
operating systems. Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop
software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it reign as
such. Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your
average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty
good (c'mon, be generous).

I regret deeply that the rest of the world doesn't have a house full
of beautiful, stable, simple Macs like I do, but the reality is that
they don't as Jason points out. Instead the three or four computers
the normal person interacts with in their daily lives are almost
exclusively running Windows (even the ATM machines and tills at the
supermarket). Not a pleasant truth, but a truth nonetheless. If you
are looking for broad adoption and commercial success as a software
company you start with Windows.

The wonderful reality, however, is that the software industry, like
all others in the history of human endeavour, thrives on competition
and there is space for more than one company/product/offering to
survive. Adobe are not going to be Microsoft. THANK GOD! They have
and in my opinion will always have, a distinct and separate offering.
If they can't retain that differentiation then they don't deserve to
remain in business and the market will take care of them.

So this is a bit of a silly thread as far as I am concerned. The
answer for me is clearly No for all the same reasons that Microsoft
haven't killed any of the other things on the list at the top. They
might try, but I think they should be more worried about Google and
web based desktop software than Adobe and the flash player.

Simon

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>

> Hey Jason,
>
> Even if 90% of internet's users are running Windows, how many
> millions aren't..
> If you can deploy applications that is guaranteed to only be used by
> Windows users, well good luck to you.
>
> Here we target creatives in the advertising industry and I don't  
have

> that luxury.
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Bjorn Schultheiss
> Senior Developer
> 
> Personalised Communication Power
>
> Level 2, 31 Coventry St.
> South Melbourne 3205,
> VIC Australia
>
> T: +61 3 9674 7400
> F: +61 3 9645 9160
> W: http://www.qdc.net.au
>
> ((This transmission is confidential and intended solely
> for the person or organization to whom it is addressed. It may
> contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the
> intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any
> action in reliance on it. If you believe you received this
> transmission in error, please notify the sender.---))
>
>
>
> One person wrote:
> > Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are  
windows. Macs

> > have IE working OK.
>
> Another responded:
> >>Think again.
> "Think again?" What kind of an argument is that? People keep
> brining up certain technlogies not working on Mac OS or Linux as a
> bad thing. Personally, I've never bought into the, "that technology
> does not support obscure browser "X" or non-Windows operating system
> "Y" and therefore is doomed to fail" argument. As much as I wish it
> were not true, Micros

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[dorkie dork from dorktown]

the problem with microsoft is they live in a bubble. they live in their own
little world where only windows exists. well, at the college i visit half
the people have macs. i am in a college coffee / study shop with about 150
people and half have macs. this all changed when the mac books came out last
year. long time windows users switched. my roomate uses a mac and loves it.
not everyone uses windows.

i dont' trust their cross compatible promises either. what if they do make
version on mac. anyone remember ie on mac? they need to prove they have
changed the way they do things (and think) before i would ever trust them.

since i'm ranting, it seems, that users opinions don't matter. all they need
to do is listen to their users and i do not get that from them. vista is an
example of them living in a bubble. so as the web changes i do not think
silverlight will progress when they do not listen to the users.


On 4/29/07, simonjpalmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Does C# kill Java?
Does IE kill Firefox?
Does SQLServer kill Oracle?
Does Windows kill UNIX?
Will Silverlight kill Flex?

From my 20 odd years of software development, during which time the
Microsoft hegemony has been at its apogee, none of the above are true.
In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would
choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left.

Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop
operating systems. Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop
software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it reign as
such. Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your
average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty
good (c'mon, be generous).

I regret deeply that the rest of the world doesn't have a house full
of beautiful, stable, simple Macs like I do, but the reality is that
they don't as Jason points out. Instead the three or four computers
the normal person interacts with in their daily lives are almost
exclusively running Windows (even the ATM machines and tills at the
supermarket). Not a pleasant truth, but a truth nonetheless. If you
are looking for broad adoption and commercial success as a software
company you start with Windows.

The wonderful reality, however, is that the software industry, like
all others in the history of human endeavour, thrives on competition
and there is space for more than one company/product/offering to
survive. Adobe are not going to be Microsoft. THANK GOD! They have
and in my opinion will always have, a distinct and separate offering.
If they can't retain that differentiation then they don't deserve to
remain in business and the market will take care of them.

So this is a bit of a silly thread as far as I am concerned. The
answer for me is clearly No for all the same reasons that Microsoft
haven't killed any of the other things on the list at the top. They
might try, but I think they should be more worried about Google and
web based desktop software than Adobe and the flash player.

Simon

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , Bjorn
Schultheiss
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hey Jason,
>
> Even if 90% of internet's users are running Windows, how many
> millions aren't..
> If you can deploy applications that is guaranteed to only be used by
> Windows users, well good luck to you.
>
> Here we target creatives in the advertising industry and I don't have
> that luxury.
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Bjorn Schultheiss
> Senior Developer
> 
> Personalised Communication Power
>
> Level 2, 31 Coventry St.
> South Melbourne 3205,
> VIC Australia
>
> T: +61 3 9674 7400
> F: +61 3 9645 9160
> W: http://www.qdc.net.au
>
> ((This transmission is confidential and intended solely
> for the person or organization to whom it is addressed. It may
> contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the
> intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any
> action in reliance on it. If you believe you received this
> transmission in error, please notify the sender.---))
>
>
>
> One person wrote:
> > Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs
> > have IE working OK.
>
> Another responded:
> >>Think again.
> "Think again?" What kind of an argument is that? People keep
> brining up certain technlogies not working on Mac OS or Linux as a
> bad thing. Personally, I've never bought into the, "that technology
> does not support obscure browser "X" or non-Windows operating system
> "Y" and therefore is doomed to fail" argument. As much as I wish it
> were not true, Microsoft is one example of a company who has time and
> again developed solutions for Windows only and been quite successful
> at it. Not supporting Mac or Linux WILL hurt you a little, but it's
> still a Windows world (unfortunately) and thus there is a huge market
> there to tap. The world is changing, sure, but very very slowly in
> this regard.
>
> At the same time, I think Silverlig

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Weyert de Boer]

> In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would
> choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left.

I am not sure about the C# and Java bit, though ;) It might my severe 
experiences with Java lately. But I C# does a good job... You just need 
to use the right stuff with CLR. I mean most people run server 
applications in workstation mode instead of server mode. Yes, then you 
have performance issues. The garbage collector works differently then. 
Also some limitations will be removed etc.

> Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop
> operating systems. Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop
> software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it reign as
> such. Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your
> average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty
> good (c'mon, be generous).


I think Word is terrible to use, and Excel is good but I still think 
Quatro Pro worked better when I had to use it. I dont use Excel anymore.

Yours,
Weyert

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[simonjpalmer]

Does C# kill Java?
Does IE kill Firefox?
Does SQLServer kill Oracle?
Does Windows kill UNIX?
Will Silverlight kill Flex?

>From my 20 odd years of software development, during which time the
Microsoft hegemony has been at its apogee, none of the above are true.
 In fact if you want a really scalable enterprise platform you would
choose the right hand side of the list above rather than the left.  

Where Microsoft win hands down is in Office Applications and desktop
operating systems.  Excel is quite possibly the best piece of desktop
software ever written (Word being the worst) and long may it reign as
such.  Windows is crap, but it's more than good enough for your
average user and most Microsoft desktop products are actually pretty
good (c'mon, be generous).

I regret deeply that the rest of the world doesn't have a house full
of beautiful, stable, simple Macs like I do, but the reality is that
they don't as Jason points out.  Instead the three or four computers
the normal person interacts with in their daily lives are almost
exclusively running Windows (even the ATM machines and tills at the
supermarket).  Not a pleasant truth, but a truth nonetheless.  If you
are looking for broad adoption and commercial success as a software
company you start with Windows.

The wonderful reality, however, is that the software industry, like
all others in the history of human endeavour, thrives on competition
and there is space for more than one company/product/offering to
survive.  Adobe are not going to be Microsoft.  THANK GOD!  They have
and in my opinion will always have, a distinct and separate offering.
 If they can't retain that differentiation then they don't deserve to
remain in business and the market will take care of them.

So this is a bit of a silly thread as far as I am concerned.  The
answer for me is clearly No for all the same reasons that Microsoft
haven't killed any of the other things on the list at the top.  They
might try, but I think they should be more worried about Google and
web based desktop software than Adobe and the flash player.

Simon

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Jason,
> 
> Even if 90% of internet's users are running Windows, how many  
> millions aren't..
> If you can deploy applications that is guaranteed to only be used by  
> Windows users, well good luck to you.
> 
> Here we target creatives in the advertising industry and I don't have  
> that luxury.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Bjorn Schultheiss
> Senior Developer
> 
> Personalised Communication Power
> 
> Level 2, 31 Coventry St.
> South Melbourne 3205,
> VIC Australia
> 
> T:  +61 3 9674 7400
> F:  +61 3 9645 9160
> W:  http://www.qdc.net.au
> 
> ((This transmission is confidential and intended solely  
> for the person or organization to whom it is addressed. It may  
> contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the  
> intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any  
> action in reliance on it. If you believe you received this  
> transmission in error, please notify the sender.---))
> 
> 
> 
> One person wrote:
>  > Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs
>  > have IE working OK.
> 
> Another responded:
>  >>Think again.
> "Think again?"  What kind of an argument is that?  People keep  
> brining up certain technlogies not working on Mac OS or Linux as a  
> bad thing.  Personally, I've never bought into the, "that technology  
> does not support obscure browser "X" or non-Windows operating system  
> "Y" and therefore is doomed to fail" argument.  As much as I wish it  
> were not true, Microsoft is one example of a company who has time and  
> again developed solutions for Windows only and been quite successful  
> at it.  Not supporting Mac or Linux WILL hurt you a little, but it's  
> still a Windows world (unfortunately) and thus there is a huge market  
> there to tap.   The world is changing, sure, but very very slowly in  
> this regard.
> 
> At the same time, I think Silverlight is coming out a little too late  
> - the RIA runtime has already left the barn IMO.
> 
> Jason Merrill
> Bank of America
> GT&O Learning & Leadership Development
> eTools & Multimedia Team
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Bjorn Schultheiss]

Title: QDC - Bjorn Signature
Hey Jason,Even if 90% of internet's users are running Windows, how many millions aren't..If you can deploy applications that is guaranteed to only be used by Windows users, well good luck to you.Here we target creatives in the advertising industry and I don't have that luxury.Regards, Bjorn Schultheiss Senior Developer Personalised Communication Power Level 2, 31 Coventry St.South Melbourne 3205,VIC AustraliaT:  +61 3 9674 7400F:  +61 3 9645 9160W:  http://www.qdc.net.au ((This transmission is confidential and intended solely for the person or organization to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you believe you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender.---))One person wrote:> Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs> have IE working OK. Another responded:>>Think again."Think again?"  What kind of an argument is that?  People keep brining up certain technlogies not working on Mac OS or Linux as a bad thing.  Personally, I've never bought into the, "that technology does not support obscure browser "X" or non-Windows operating system "Y" and therefore is doomed to fail" argument.  As much as I wish it were not true, Microsoft is one example of a company who has time and again developed solutions for Windows only and been quite successful at it.  Not supporting Mac or Linux WILL hurt you a little, but it's still a Windows world (unfortunately) and thus there is a huge market there to tap.   The world is changing, sure, but very very slowly in this regard. At the same time, I think Silverlight is coming out a little too late - the RIA runtime has already left the barn IMO. Jason Merrill Bank of America  GT&O Learning & Leadership Development eTools & Multimedia Team  

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Kelly Birr]

Silverlight does not require IE.  It workes on IE and Firefox under 
Windows, and Safari for Mac.  I also understand Firefox for Mac support 
is expected soon (if I've not already missed it).  It has extensive 
cross platform functionality including streaming video support. 

It also has the advantage of development under Visual Studio which is a 
HUGE plus for me.  Don't get me wrong, Eclipse is a good IDE with a good 
debugger and a great set of available (even free) 3rd party plug-ins.  
But, I've yet to find anything that can compare to the power and ease of 
Visual Studio 2005 (IMHO).

All that being said Silverlight is not without it's problems:
* It's control library is still very week.  It does not even have a real 
TextInput equivalent in the last preview release I used. 
* I does not offer any form of compilation, so it is delivered to the 
end user as XAML and Javascript source code (which sucks).
* It may also be a long time before it has anywhere close to the market 
penetration that Flash has now.

I think Silverlight will be a good contender, but I really do not see it 
replacing Flash/Flex any time in the near future.

- Kelly

Paul J DeCoursey wrote:
> Ummm no IE does not work on the Mac, the last few versions were 
> awful and barely worked. MS hasn't been developing it in at least 2 
> years, maybe three.  They stopped supporting it over a year ago.
>
>   
>> Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs
>> have IE working OK. The better solution was a cross plataform
>> solution, that's why I've been working with Flex.
>> 
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Flexcoders Mailing List
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>
>
>
>
>
>   

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[mvbaffa]

You are rigth Jeffry. I am sure there are a lot of people that do not 
work with Windows. And that's OK. 

I just wanted to say that a lot of people works with Windows and 
Adobe is letting these developers with no support. I am sure you will 
agree that the number of windows developers is very high.

The first version of all releases of Flex are delivered first in ... 
WINDOWS.

I do not want to say that windows is better or worse than any other 
plataform. What I want to say is that they cannot be forgotten.

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
>   I think this is true for many enterprises.  Not true for a lot of 
> developers.
> 
> At 09:41 PM 4/26/2007, Bjorn Schultheiss wrote:
> 
> >Think again.
> >
> >
> >
> >On 27/04/2007, at 11:26 AM, mvbaffa wrote:
> >
> >>Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. 
Macs
> >>have IE working OK.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Jeffry Houser, Software Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording 
Engineer
> AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773
> --
> My Company: 
> My Podcast: 
> My Blog: 
> Connecticut Macromedia User Group: 
>

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[mvbaffa]

I am sure that no one has a solution so good as Flex. What will adobe 
do, wait for them to be close. 

I do not know what are Adobe plans, but if at this moment there is 
not a solution ready to use, I am afraid that this solution will only 
be avaiable when Microsoft will have Visual Studio 2007 ready to use 
and its technology ajusted and working well.

Two years ago Adobe had a lot of time. But now the clock is 
ticking 

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Paul DeCoursey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I think you are right that .NET support should be there, although I 
am
> not a .NET developer and probably never will be. I wonder if 
Microsoft
> could develop this solution? In theory they would have the best
> resources to understand .NET and enough people have figured out the
> protocols used in FDS that they should be able to develop this.
> 
> Anyway, the big flaw in your argument is that Adobe doesn't need to
> built the solution when there is one on the market already.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "mvbaffa"  wrote:
> >
> > I beleive that Adobe wants to increase its participation in 
> > the software development market. .NET is very good and its number 
of 
> > developers is huge. That's why they should not be fogotten. 
> > 
> > This at least is naive.
> > 
> > Adobe has one thing that Microsoft does not have, FLASH. This is 
the 
> > key to success if it is well conducted. 
> > 
> > I do not care about politics. I really do not care which is the 
winner 
> > Microsoft or Adobe. The winner will be the one that can deploy 
good and 
> > affordable products.
> > 
> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss 
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Think again.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 27/04/2007, at 11:26 AM, mvbaffa wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are 
windows. 
> > Macs
> > > > have IE working OK.
> > >
> >
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Bjorn Schultheiss]

Which department?

Development.
Creative.

Windows does not have a monopoly.


On 27/04/2007, at 12:34 PM, Jeffry Houser wrote:



I think this is true for many enterprises. Not true for a lot of
developers.

At 09:41 PM 4/26/2007, Bjorn Schultheiss wrote:

>Think again.
>
>
>
>On 27/04/2007, at 11:26 AM, mvbaffa wrote:
>
>>Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows.  
Macs

>>have IE working OK.

--
Jeffry Houser, Software Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording  
Engineer

AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773
--
My Company: 
My Podcast: 
My Blog: 
Connecticut Macromedia User Group: 





Regards,

Bjorn Schultheiss
Senior Developer

Personalised Communication Power

Level 2, 31 Coventry St.
South Melbourne 3205,
VIC Australia

T:  +61 3 9674 7400
F:  +61 3 9645 9160
W:  http://www.qdc.net.au

((This transmission is confidential and intended solely  
for the person or organization to whom it is addressed. It may  
contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the  
intended recipient, you should not copy, distribute or take any  
action in reliance on it. If you believe you received this  
transmission in error, please notify the sender.---))

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Paul DeCoursey]

I think you are right that .NET support should be there, although I am
not a .NET developer and probably never will be. I wonder if Microsoft
could develop this solution? In theory they would have the best
resources to understand .NET and enough people have figured out the
protocols used in FDS that they should be able to develop this.

Anyway, the big flaw in your argument is that Adobe doesn't need to
built the solution when there is one on the market already.

Paul


--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "mvbaffa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I beleive that Adobe wants to increase its participation in 
> the software development market. .NET is very good and its number of 
> developers is huge. That's why they should not be fogotten. 
> 
> This at least is naive.
> 
> Adobe has one thing that Microsoft does not have, FLASH. This is the 
> key to success if it is well conducted. 
> 
> I do not care about politics. I really do not care which is the winner 
> Microsoft or Adobe. The winner will be the one that can deploy good and 
> affordable products.
> 
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss 
>  wrote:
> >
> > Think again.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 27/04/2007, at 11:26 AM, mvbaffa wrote:
> > 
> > > Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. 
> Macs
> > > have IE working OK.
> >
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Paul J DeCoursey]

Ummm no IE does not work on the Mac, the last few versions were 
awful and barely worked. MS hasn't been developing it in at least 2 
years, maybe three.  They stopped supporting it over a year ago.

> Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs
> have IE working OK. The better solution was a cross plataform
> solution, that's why I've been working with Flex.

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Brian Lesser]

At fitc Ted Patrick announced that Flex 3 will have platform-neutral 
support for data integration with .Net, Java, PHP, etc.. see Aral 
Balkan's notes from the keynote:

http://aralbalkan. com/922 

/*"I'm very excited about the back-end neutrality and the additional
language intelligence in Flex Builder 3. Refactoring support is going to
be a huge productivity booster and the integrated profiler should prove
very useful.*/"

I don't know exactly what that means - we'll have to wait and see.
Cheers,
-Brian

mvbaffa wrote:

> I beleive that Adobe wants to increase its participation in
> the software development market. .NET is very good and its number of
> developers is huge. That's why they should not be fogotten.
>
> This at least is naive.
>
> Adobe has one thing that Microsoft does not have, FLASH. This is the
> key to success if it is well conducted.
>
> I do not care about politics. I really do not care which is the winner
> Microsoft or Adobe. The winner will be the one that can deploy good and
> affordable products.
>


-- 
__
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario   Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: POD??  E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Enter through LB99)   Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
__

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Jeffry Houser]

  I think this is true for many enterprises.  Not true for a lot of 
developers.

At 09:41 PM 4/26/2007, Bjorn Schultheiss wrote:

>Think again.
>
>
>
>On 27/04/2007, at 11:26 AM, mvbaffa wrote:
>
>>Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs
>>have IE working OK.



--
Jeffry Houser, Software Developer, Writer, Songwriter, Recording Engineer
AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773
--
My Company: 
My Podcast: 
My Blog: 
Connecticut Macromedia User Group: 

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[mvbaffa]

I beleive that Adobe wants to increase its participation in 
the software development market. .NET is very good and its number of 
developers is huge. That's why they should not be fogotten. 

This at least is naive.

Adobe has one thing that Microsoft does not have, FLASH. This is the 
key to success if it is well conducted. 

I do not care about politics. I really do not care which is the winner 
Microsoft or Adobe. The winner will be the one that can deploy good and 
affordable products.

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Bjorn Schultheiss 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Think again.
> 
> 
> 
> On 27/04/2007, at 11:26 AM, mvbaffa wrote:
> 
> > Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. 
Macs
> > have IE working OK.
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Bjorn Schultheiss]

Think again.



On 27/04/2007, at 11:26 AM, mvbaffa wrote:


Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs
have IE working OK.

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[mvbaffa]

Everybody uses Windows, almost all the workstations are windows. Macs 
have IE working OK. The better solution was a cross plataform 
solution, that's why I've been working with Flex.

I expected, when I downloaded the alpha version of Flex 2.0, that at 
this moment Adobe would already havea .NET solution. But this it not 
true.

So maybe, and just maybe, it´s better to have a IE solution supported 
by a big company, like Microsoft, than to deploy an application 
constructed with Open Source solutions.

I would say that some of this Open Source solutions a very good, 
like, Fluorine, very well conducted by Zoltan. But what we need is a 
solution supported by another big company like Adobe.


--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Collins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> How will they become a "true" competitor when as I understand it, 
the XBAPs
> really only work in IE, so the whole cross-platform notion goes out 
the
> window, doesn't it?
> 
> I think that WPF definitely has it's place... on the windows 
desktop. It is
> my opinion that it will be huge in making windows applications more 
rich and
> friendly experiences, but for now at least, I don't see it making 
the same
> headway in online applications.
> 
> On 4/23/07, mvbaffa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >   I would like to remember that Windows Communication Foundation 
has
> > duplex, or callback services. That allows the server notify the
> > clients of any server events. Sounds like FDS don't you think ???
> >
> > And It's free !
> >
> > FDS is still more easy to use and more complete. But WCF is 
getting
> > there.
> >
> > When Microsoft solves the restrictions for the XBAP sandbox, XAML
> > Browser applications will be a true competitor of Flex.
> >
> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "dorkie
> > dork from dorktown"
> >
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > you wrote,
> > > How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around 
for
> > > electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a danger
> > in some
> > > organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance
> > away from as
> > > possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document 
Management
> > > Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think
> > MSFT has
> > > some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared 
to
> > look into
> > > what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA
> > development
> > > world-wide.
> > >
> > > that's what i'm talking about! there is a goal here that i 
thought
> > Flex/RIA
> > > was trying to address. i thought that was to make development 
and
> > developers
> > > lives easier and add new and necessary features to progress 
that.
> > >
> > > i love flex. it is an amazing vehicle but i think we need to 
get the
> > > foundation built. the flex 2 framework is part of the 
foundation.
> > the data
> > > services adapters on the server need to be part of that 
foundation.
> > at least
> > > basic amf remoting deserializers / classes. half the benefit of
> > flex is the
> > > data communications. client side *is* only half the application.
> > >
> > > flex builder - reasonably priced
> > > flex sdk - free (great for mass adoption)
> > > flex data services - out of reach for mass adoption of flex
> > >
> > > IMO that is the reason people would shop around to another 
solution.
> > >
> > > i don't see Silverlight's path in this market. if it does have
> > something out
> > > of the box it will have a huge advantage.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Paul,
> > > >
> > > > How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping 
around
> > for
> > > > electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a 
danger
> > in some
> > > > organisations, it's something they want to put as much 
distance
> > away from as
> > > > possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document
> > Management
> > > > Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I 
think
> > MSFT has
> > > > some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not 
cared to
> > look into
> > > > what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA
> > development
> > > > world-wide.
> > > >
> > > > 2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one,
> > hey he also
> > > > was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last 
idea,
> > so figured
> > > > he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be
> > bigger! Yet,
> > > > isn't as widespread.
> > > >
> > > > So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three
> > tiers of User
> > > > Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the
> > runtime stck
> > > > with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm
> > footing, then go
> > > > look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, 
whom
> > are just
> > > > as important, have validated the substance of the technology 
on
> > merit.
> > > >
> > > > Good Experience
> > > > AJAX / HTML / CSS
>

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[mvbaffa]

FDS Express is free provided you use for one application per server 
and the server has only one CPU. 

This is not exactly what I would call free. In fact it seems to me 
that FDS Express was delivered this way to provide a way to develop 
and test applications, which is very good. 

With this kind of license agreement it can not be used in a 
production systems. Because if you need to upgrade your server you 
would pass from zero do US 6K. Or even if you use the same server and 
has two Flex application hosted you would be charged the same way.

The "Big account" maketing and commercial strategy of Adobe is very 
dangerous. Software is tipically constructed by small/medium companies
they are the ones that make things run. 

Remember IBM and its very good products. IBM is mainly devoted to big 
accounts, because of Mainframes, of course. They tried to transport 
this filosophy to Software, we all know what happened.

I hope Adobe knows what it is doing. If they are wrong we will loose 
Flex.


--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Tom Chiverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> On Monday 23 Apr 2007, mvbaffa wrote:
> > And It's free !
> 
> Isn't FDS Express free ?
> 
> > When Microsoft solves the restrictions for the XBAP sandbox, XAML
> > Browser applications will be a true competitor of Flex.
> 
> As long as you don't want to have small downloads. Or to work on 
Linux.
> 
> -- 
> Tom Chiverton
> Helping to widespreadedly restore turn-key supply-chains
> on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com
> 
> 
> 
> This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.
> 
> Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in 
England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered 
office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 
2JF.  A list of members is available for inspection at the registered 
office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP 
means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society.
> 
> CONFIDENTIALITY
> 
> This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named 
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received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells 
LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008.
> 
> For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Tom Chiverton]

On Wednesday 25 Apr 2007, Scott Barnes wrote:
> developers more power in delivering their potential instead of reserving it
> for Enterprise firstly, getting caught up in this Microsoft is evil war and
> lastly forcing a technology like LiveCycle into the equation.
>
> How's that "misleading"?

Because LCDS isn't being forced on anyone.
No 'power' (do you mean feature ?) is being reserved for the Enterprise (who 
ever they are). 
All features are available to everyone.

-- 
Tom Chiverton
Helping to professionally pursue enterprise-class services
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com



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for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation 
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Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

*sigh* you wanna play politics Mike, go for it, but if you spent more time
focusing on the products and the issues developers face daily instead of
engaging in politics around the semantics of what exactly should be
disclosed vs shouldn't - on a public forum, that's not owned by Adobe - go
for it.

More to the point, this is my opinion and not of my employer (as per
previous emails) so no, it's not relevant and while you assume my job is to
compete with Adobe it's actually not, I deal with developers in all stacks
around the web. So, if Adobe want to go this whole "us vs them" attitude,
then you're a fool. As there are .NET developers out there whom use your
products and part of my role is also engaging these folks and helping them
through these hurdles. I deal with a lot of .NET folk whom need help withe
FLEX (thus why I promote WebORB as a nice end to end solution so far)

Sad part of all Mike is if you actually read the post and focused on it, I'm
*praising* FLEX and advocating it could do better (which if we were
competiting would mean bad for us right?). All I am asking is give the
developers more power in delivering their potential instead of reserving it
for Enterprise firstly, getting caught up in this Microsoft is evil war and
lastly forcing a technology like LiveCycle into the equation.

How's that "misleading"? - less time mud slinging the same old rant (you'e
done this before on Ted's blog and got the same responses) and more focus on
doing whatever it is you do at Adobe.

btw. I've not only bought Adobe products, but I've sold them on your behalf,
so with all due respect I'm still  paying customer first, brand second.
Focus on that.

On 4/25/07, Mike Chambers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Scott,

Don't you think you should make it clear in your emails that you work
for Microsoft, as an evangelist with technologies that compete directly
with Flash and Flex?

I know you mentioned it a couple of times, but you are emailing from a
gmail account, and don't put your Microsoft affiliation in your sig.

That seems a little misleading to me.

mike chambers

[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Scott Barnes wrote:
>
>
> heh, FUD, Troll and there was another one .. think it was "sell-out"
> from memory... I've heard them all dude :)
>
> Just for fun, I did a google of *Brian Lesser + Macromedia*, you seem to

> be a very vocal member of the community, so given i'm "trolling" does
> that make you "fanboi"?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy 
>
> (gets silly when we call each other names like this don't you think?)
>
> Scott.
>
> Connect with others.
>
> .
>
>






--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Mike Chambers]

Scott,

Don't you think you should make it clear in your emails that you work 
for Microsoft, as an evangelist with technologies that compete directly 
with Flash and Flex?

I know you mentioned it a couple of times, but you are emailing from a 
gmail account, and don't put your Microsoft affiliation in your sig.

That seems a little misleading to me.

mike chambers

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Scott Barnes wrote:
> 
> 
> heh, FUD, Troll and there was another one .. think it was "sell-out" 
> from memory... I've heard them all dude :)
>  
> Just for fun, I did a google of *Brian Lesser + Macromedia*, you seem to 
> be a very vocal member of the community, so given i'm "trolling" does 
> that make you "fanboi"?
>  
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy 
>  
> (gets silly when we call each other names like this don't you think?)
>  
> Scott.
> 
> Connect with others.
> 
> .
> 
> 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Nick Collins]

How will they become a "true" competitor when as I understand it, the XBAPs
really only work in IE, so the whole cross-platform notion goes out the
window, doesn't it?

I think that WPF definitely has it's place... on the windows desktop. It is
my opinion that it will be huge in making windows applications more rich and
friendly experiences, but for now at least, I don't see it making the same
headway in online applications.

On 4/23/07, mvbaffa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  I would like to remember that Windows Communication Foundation has
duplex, or callback services. That allows the server notify the
clients of any server events. Sounds like FDS don't you think ???

And It's free !

FDS is still more easy to use and more complete. But WCF is getting
there.

When Microsoft solves the restrictions for the XBAP sandbox, XAML
Browser applications will be a true competitor of Flex.

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "dorkie
dork from dorktown"

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> you wrote,
> How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for
> electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a danger
in some
> organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance
away from as
> possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management
> Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think
MSFT has
> some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to
look into
> what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA
development
> world-wide.
>
> that's what i'm talking about! there is a goal here that i thought
Flex/RIA
> was trying to address. i thought that was to make development and
developers
> lives easier and add new and necessary features to progress that.
>
> i love flex. it is an amazing vehicle but i think we need to get the
> foundation built. the flex 2 framework is part of the foundation.
the data
> services adapters on the server need to be part of that foundation.
at least
> basic amf remoting deserializers / classes. half the benefit of
flex is the
> data communications. client side *is* only half the application.
>
> flex builder - reasonably priced
> flex sdk - free (great for mass adoption)
> flex data services - out of reach for mass adoption of flex
>
> IMO that is the reason people would shop around to another solution.
>
> i don't see Silverlight's path in this market. if it does have
something out
> of the box it will have a huge advantage.
>
>
> On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around
for
> > electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? PDF is a danger
in some
> > organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance
away from as
> > possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document
Management
> > Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think
MSFT has
> > some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to
look into
> > what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA
development
> > world-wide.
> >
> > 2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one,
hey he also
> > was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea,
so figured
> > he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be
bigger! Yet,
> > isn't as widespread.
> >
> > So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three
tiers of User
> > Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the
runtime stck
> > with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm
footing, then go
> > look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom
are just
> > as important, have validated the substance of the technology on
merit.
> >
> > Good Experience
> > AJAX / HTML / CSS
> >
> > Great Experience
> > Silverlight
> >
> > Ultimate Experience
> > Windows Presentation Foundation
> >
> >
> > ASP.NET 2.0 has reduced effort by up to two-thirds since ASP 1.0
was
> > produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion developer for 9 years
I'm amazed
> > at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to AJAX, so I can only
hint that
> > going from ASP.NET AJAX to Silverlight is going to be enormous in
> > productivity gains and with the right tools, this hopefully
should seem
> > effortless. Steve.B looked like a loon when he jumped up and down
about
> > "Developers, Developers, Developers" but he was right, this is
where the
> > focus should be at the start of technology, expand when you get
their
> > blessing first and this is based off of "uptake".
> >
> > Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but
Microsoft's
> > focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom
have been
> > using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable
by
> > offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has
it's own
> > agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I
echo, it's
> > about co-existenc

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Tom Chiverton]

On Monday 23 Apr 2007, mvbaffa wrote:
> And It's free !

Isn't FDS Express free ?

> When Microsoft solves the restrictions for the XBAP sandbox, XAML
> Browser applications will be a true competitor of Flex.

As long as you don't want to have small downloads. Or to work on Linux.

-- 
Tom Chiverton
Helping to widespreadedly restore turn-key supply-chains
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com



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[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[mvbaffa]

I would like to remember that Windows Communication Foundation has 
duplex, or callback services. That allows the server notify the 
clients of any server events. Sounds like FDS don't you think ??? 

And It's free !

FDS is still more easy to use and more complete. But WCF is getting 
there. 

When Microsoft solves the restrictions for the XBAP sandbox, XAML 
Browser applications will be a true competitor of Flex.

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "dorkie dork from dorktown" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> you wrote,
> How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for
> electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions?  PDF is a danger 
in some
> organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance 
away from as
> possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management
> Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think 
MSFT has
> some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to 
look into
> what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA 
development
> world-wide.
> 
> that's what i'm talking about! there is a goal here that i thought 
Flex/RIA
> was trying to address. i thought that was to make development and 
developers
> lives easier and add new and necessary features to progress that.
> 
> i love flex. it is an amazing vehicle but i think we need to get the
> foundation built. the flex 2 framework is part of the foundation. 
the data
> services adapters on the server need to be part of that foundation. 
at least
> basic amf remoting deserializers / classes. half the benefit of 
flex is the
> data communications. client side *is* only half the application.
> 
> flex builder - reasonably priced
> flex sdk - free (great for mass adoption)
> flex data services - out of reach for mass adoption of flex
> 
> IMO that is the reason people would shop around to another solution.
> 
> i don't see Silverlight's path in this market. if it does have 
something out
> of the box it will have a huge advantage.
> 
> 
> On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >   Paul,
> >
> > How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around 
for
> > electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions?  PDF is a danger 
in some
> > organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance 
away from as
> > possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document 
Management
> > Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think 
MSFT has
> > some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to 
look into
> > what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA 
development
> > world-wide.
> >
> > 2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, 
hey he also
> > was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, 
so figured
> > he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be 
bigger! Yet,
> > isn't as widespread.
> >
> > So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three 
tiers of User
> > Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the 
runtime stck
> > with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm 
footing, then go
> > look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom 
are just
> > as important, have validated the substance of the technology on 
merit.
> >
> > Good Experience
> > AJAX  / HTML / CSS
> >
> > Great Experience
> > Silverlight
> >
> > Ultimate Experience
> > Windows Presentation Foundation
> >
> >
> > ASP.NET 2.0 has reduced effort by up to two-thirds since ASP 1.0 
was
> > produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion developer for 9 years 
I'm amazed
> > at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to AJAX, so I can only 
hint that
> > going from ASP.NET AJAX to Silverlight is going to be enormous in
> > productivity gains and with the right tools, this hopefully 
should seem
> > effortless. Steve.B looked like a loon when he jumped up and down 
about
> > "Developers, Developers, Developers" but he was right, this is 
where the
> > focus should be at the start of technology, expand when you get 
their
> > blessing first and this is based off of "uptake".
> >
> > Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but 
Microsoft's
> > focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom 
have been
> > using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable 
by
> > offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has 
it's own
> > agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I 
echo, it's
> > about co-existence not changing technology stacks.
> >
> > Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as 
I know
> > they can do better (similar with Microsoft, only reverse, great 
at input but
> > at times need work on output). No two companies are perfect.
> >
> > I rant but I'm not buying Adobe's direction on this one - if I 
may say
> > that clocked off MSFT's payroll and using Flex on my weekend(s).
> >
> >
> > On 4

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[dorkie dork from dorktown]

i wouldn't say that. i think he has some valid points that echo my own. i
love flex and i love the visual studio products when i worked in them. don't
really like some of MS business practices but i feel more comfortable with
MS than i have in a long time (well parts of it). but like scott, my first
goal above a brand is a better experience for the future for the user and
for the developer.

i don't think MS has told us everything about their plans for Silverlight.
what especially concerns me is all the staff they have. if these guys have a
say in the actual delivered product that *they* think it needs i think it
will be a great product. i dont think that will put us out of the job or
prevent flex from being successful.

nintendo (yay!) has a strategy that is focus on making games fun / a great
experience. they don't really care what the competition is doing. their $200
system is selling more than the super ps3 and super xbox 360. they don't
have their head in the sand but even if they did they are focused on the
right thing. if adobe focuses on making flex great, a great experience for
user and developer, then they got the focus right. all the things they need
to do will be enveloped under that umbrella.

dorkie dork
from dorktown


On 4/23/07, Brian Lesser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Sadly, this seems to describe Scott's post Microsoft behavior:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

I wish it was otherwise...
-Brian

Scott Barnes wrote:

>
> http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=TyuDAzzKnz8
> 
>
> :)
>

--
__
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: POD?? E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
(Enter through LB99) Web: 
http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
__

 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

heh, FUD, Troll and there was another one .. think it was "sell-out" from
memory... I've heard them all dude :)

Just for fun, I did a google of *Brian Lesser + Macromedia*, you seem to be
a very vocal member of the community, so given i'm "trolling" does that make
you "fanboi"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy

(gets silly when we call each other names like this don't you think?)

Scott.
P.S I own your book Brian, and so I respect your work and hope you don't
take offense, merly trying to illustrate how easy it is to throw the mud and
how silly it can get?

On 4/23/07, Brian Lesser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Sadly, this seems to describe Scott's post Microsoft behavior:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

I wish it was otherwise...
-Brian

Scott Barnes wrote:

>
> http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=TyuDAzzKnz8
> 
>
> :)
>

--
__
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: POD?? E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
(Enter through LB99) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
__







--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Brian Lesser]

Sadly, this seems to describe Scott's post Microsoft behavior:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

I wish it was otherwise...
-Brian

Scott Barnes wrote:

>
> http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=TyuDAzzKnz8 
> 
>  
> :)
>


-- 
__
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario   Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: POD??  E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Enter through LB99)   Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
__

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

ew label - LiveCycle (Patterns
> are the same, just approach slight adjusts (FUD be damned)).
>
> My overall close-out point is simple: LiveCycle is the next attempt at
> pushing Flash into the Enterprise market (I can see why, the idea of Flash
> player sitting nice and snuggly inside the corporate firewall would make
> anyone want to figure out revenue $$ can come from it somehow). It's bold
> and kudos for doing so as nothing but good can come from it for everyone on
> this list (Should you succeed). Yet do so not at the expense of having Flex
> Developers on this list having to jump more financial mismanaged hurdles
> while your guys figure out how the pieces play a role it just smacks of
> customer disloyalty firstly and secondly - most important of all - results
> in poor uptake of Flex ( *which by rights it should be doing much bigger
> things and that alone annoys me, given my personal investment in the
> technology*) and can cost people jobs.
>
> Recap Point: So I'm advocating for Adobe to do better with existing
> technology and give more to the people that got the technology where it is
> today - developers, developers, developers. RIA could get stronger, which
> validates everones passion and potential on this list resulting in the
> Internet as we know it making leaps and bounds in progress!
>
> Flex Data Services vs LiveCyle Data Services just sends the wrong
> signals, being Microsoft is my employer granted, but in this  occasion this
> is purely my own opinion and I'm sure there will be complaints (both
> sides) :)
>
>
> Scott.
> P.S
> I never left the fold (can't remember ever stating I did, we at
> Microsoft also use Flash - Ted even pointed that out with Vista Launch
> Site), I code offline a lot in FLEX, I'm currently trialing a project I have
> where I swapped out AJAX from ASP.NET <http://asp.net/> 2.0 with MXML
> using the server-side compiler... just because i drink now from the
> Microsoft fire hose, doesn't mean I turn my back on everything I worked on
> for the past 10 years.. there is life after Microsoft & Adobe.
>
> I've been doing this crap since Flash Generator days, don't get me
> started... heh.
>
>
>
> On 4/23/07, David Mendels <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> >
> >Scott,
> >
> > This is all FUD.  You contributed a lot to the Flex community for
> > years, but the below is just so off-base.
> >
> > a) Flex 1.0 and 1.X did not "crash and burn".  It was one of the most
> > successfull new product introductions in the history of the company. It was
> > a 1.X product, and it wasn't perfect, and in particular in advance of
> > the new VM the performance was not where any of us wanted it yet at that
> > time.  That said, it still was a massive advance, did very well, and many
> > people (not everyone) were very successfull with it.  As soon as we had the
> > performance issues nailed with the new VM, we broadened the strategy with
> > the free FlexSDK and FlexBuilder 2.  That was (IMO) the right order of
> > operations.  You mileage may vary, but Flex is taking off beautifully.
> >
> > b) Our strategy is clear.  The FlexSDK is free and can work with any
> > backend you choose--directly via XML, JSON, WebServices, or one of many
> > implementations of AMF.
> >
> > c) We are building an enterprise server product line as well.  It
> > isn't intended for everyone.  But it has tremendous value for use cases
> > where it it relevent and it is also very successfull.  It is clear you are
> > not interested in it yourself, which is fine.  Others are.  We--Adobe--will
> > continue to do our best to build great products and if we do people will use
> > them. If that is a "conspiracy" I don't get it.
> >
> > d) Many applications have documents/forms as inputs, outputs,
> > artifacts. Being able to integrate in a deep way with documents, using PDF
> > (an ISO standard) can be very valuable.  Some of the use cases I have seen
> > lately include health and benefits enrollment, tax submissions, mortgage
> > loan origination, insurance claims processing, corrospondence management,
> > field service management, new account opening, clinical trial management,
> > new drug submissions, grant applications, etc etc.  I could go on, but the
> > combination of Flex and LiveCycle (and PDF) enables some very powerfull and
> > seamless applications that create better experiences, reduce costs, improve
> > compliance, etc. I am not sure what is controversial here for you--these
> > apps exist whether they are of interest to you or not.  If you aren't
> > inter

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Gautam]

 list (Should you succeed). Yet do so not at the expense of having Flex
Developers on this list having to jump more financial mismanaged hurdles
while your guys figure out how the pieces play a role it just smacks of
customer disloyalty firstly and secondly - most important of all - results
in poor uptake of Flex ( *which by rights it should be doing much bigger
things and that alone annoys me, given my personal investment in the
technology*) and can cost people jobs.

Recap Point: So I'm advocating for Adobe to do better with existing
technology and give more to the people that got the technology where it is
today - developers, developers, developers. RIA could get stronger, which
validates everones passion and potential on this list resulting in the
Internet as we know it making leaps and bounds in progress!

Flex Data Services vs LiveCyle Data Services just sends the wrong signals,
being Microsoft is my employer granted, but in this  occasion this is purely
my own opinion and I'm sure there will be complaints (both sides) :)


Scott.
P.S
I never left the fold (can't remember ever stating I did, we at Microsoft
also use Flash - Ted even pointed that out with Vista Launch Site), I code
offline a lot in FLEX, I'm currently trialing a project I have where I
swapped out AJAX from ASP.NET 2.0 with MXML using the server-side
compiler... just because i drink now from the Microsoft fire hose, doesn't
mean I turn my back on everything I worked on for the past 10 years.. there
is life after Microsoft & Adobe.

I've been doing this crap since Flash Generator days, don't get me
started... heh.



On 4/23/07, David Mendels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Scott,
>
> This is all FUD.  You contributed a lot to the Flex community for years,
> but the below is just so off-base.
>
> a) Flex 1.0 and 1.X did not "crash and burn".  It was one of the most
> successfull new product introductions in the history of the company. It was
> a 1.X product, and it wasn't perfect, and in particular in advance of
> the new VM the performance was not where any of us wanted it yet at that
> time.  That said, it still was a massive advance, did very well, and many
> people (not everyone) were very successfull with it.  As soon as we had the
> performance issues nailed with the new VM, we broadened the strategy with
> the free FlexSDK and FlexBuilder 2.  That was (IMO) the right order of
> operations.  You mileage may vary, but Flex is taking off beautifully.
>
> b) Our strategy is clear.  The FlexSDK is free and can work with any
> backend you choose--directly via XML, JSON, WebServices, or one of many
> implementations of AMF.
>
> c) We are building an enterprise server product line as well.  It isn't
> intended for everyone.  But it has tremendous value for use cases where it
> it relevent and it is also very successfull.  It is clear you are not
> interested in it yourself, which is fine.  Others are.  We--Adobe--will
> continue to do our best to build great products and if we do people will use
> them. If that is a "conspiracy" I don't get it.
>
> d) Many applications have documents/forms as inputs, outputs,
> artifacts. Being able to integrate in a deep way with documents, using PDF
> (an ISO standard) can be very valuable.  Some of the use cases I have seen
> lately include health and benefits enrollment, tax submissions, mortgage
> loan origination, insurance claims processing, corrospondence management,
> field service management, new account opening, clinical trial management,
> new drug submissions, grant applications, etc etc.  I could go on, but the
> combination of Flex and LiveCycle (and PDF) enables some very powerfull and
> seamless applications that create better experiences, reduce costs, improve
> compliance, etc. I am not sure what is controversial here for you--these
> apps exist whether they are of interest to you or not.  If you aren't
> interested, so be it. There is no tight coupling with Flex which is free.
> There is not now nor has there ever been a conspiracy. Whether many people
> or a few people are interested in LiveCycle is not really an metric that
> matters to the success of Flex and I am not sure what you are trying to
> prove.
>
> I trust one day you will come back to the fold -;)  We'll keep working
> on advancing Flex and Flash Player and Apollo in the meantime--no
> conspiracies.
>
> -David
>
>  --
> *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:44 PM
> *To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player
> Kill our beloved Flex ?
>
>
>
> Paul: How many?
>
> Serio

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

ancial mismanaged hurdles
while your guys figure out how the pieces play a role it just smacks of
customer disloyalty firstly and secondly - most important of all - results
in poor uptake of Flex (*which by rights it should be doing much bigger
things and that alone annoys me, given my personal investment in the
technology*) and can cost people jobs.

Recap Point: So I'm advocating for Adobe to do better with existing
technology and give more to the people that got the technology where it is
today - developers, developers, developers. RIA could get stronger, which
validates everones passion and potential on this list resulting in the
Internet as we know it making leaps and bounds in progress!

Flex Data Services vs LiveCyle Data Services just sends the wrong signals,
being Microsoft is my employer granted, but in this  occasion this is purely
my own opinion and I'm sure there will be complaints (both sides) :)


Scott.
P.S
I never left the fold (can't remember ever stating I did, we at Microsoft
also use Flash - Ted even pointed that out with Vista Launch Site), I code
offline a lot in FLEX, I'm currently trialing a project I have where I
swapped out AJAX from ASP.NET 2.0 with MXML using the server-side
compiler... just because i drink now from the Microsoft fire hose, doesn't
mean I turn my back on everything I worked on for the past 10 years.. there
is life after Microsoft & Adobe.

I've been doing this crap since Flash Generator days, don't get me
started... heh.



On 4/23/07, David Mendels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


   Scott,

This is all FUD.  You contributed a lot to the Flex community for years,
but the below is just so off-base.

a) Flex 1.0 and 1.X did not "crash and burn".  It was one of the most
successfull new product introductions in the history of the company. It was
a 1.X product, and it wasn't perfect, and in particular in advance of the
new VM the performance was not where any of us wanted it yet at that time.
That said, it still was a massive advance, did very well, and many people
(not everyone) were very successfull with it.  As soon as we had the
performance issues nailed with the new VM, we broadened the strategy with
the free FlexSDK and FlexBuilder 2.  That was (IMO) the right order of
operations.  You mileage may vary, but Flex is taking off beautifully.

b) Our strategy is clear.  The FlexSDK is free and can work with any
backend you choose--directly via XML, JSON, WebServices, or one of many
implementations of AMF.

c) We are building an enterprise server product line as well.  It isn't
intended for everyone.  But it has tremendous value for use cases where it
it relevent and it is also very successfull.  It is clear you are not
interested in it yourself, which is fine.  Others are.  We--Adobe--will
continue to do our best to build great products and if we do people will use
them. If that is a "conspiracy" I don't get it.

d) Many applications have documents/forms as inputs, outputs,
artifacts. Being able to integrate in a deep way with documents, using PDF
(an ISO standard) can be very valuable.  Some of the use cases I have seen
lately include health and benefits enrollment, tax submissions, mortgage
loan origination, insurance claims processing, corrospondence management,
field service management, new account opening, clinical trial management,
new drug submissions, grant applications, etc etc.  I could go on, but the
combination of Flex and LiveCycle (and PDF) enables some very powerfull and
seamless applications that create better experiences, reduce costs, improve
compliance, etc. I am not sure what is controversial here for you--these
apps exist whether they are of interest to you or not.  If you aren't
interested, so be it. There is no tight coupling with Flex which is free.
There is not now nor has there ever been a conspiracy. Whether many people
or a few people are interested in LiveCycle is not really an metric that
matters to the success of Flex and I am not sure what you are trying to
prove.

I trust one day you will come back to the fold -;)  We'll keep working on
advancing Flex and Flash Player and Apollo in the meantime--no conspiracies.

-David

 ----------
*From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
Behalf Of *Scott Barnes
*Sent:* Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:44 PM
*To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
*Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player
Kill our beloved Flex ?



Paul: How many?

Seriously, throw the numbers on the table because I got to tell you, both
pre-Microsoft and post-Microsoft things haven't changed that radically that
DMS is more favoured then SAAS. SAAS is the new SOA dream, and people want
it because it's less red-tape to fight for a capital expense claim against
not only software but now hardware + bodies to support the software that was
bought. SAAS delegates that problem to 

RE: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[David Mendels]

Scott,
 
This is all FUD.  You contributed a lot to the Flex community for years,
but the below is just so off-base.
 
a) Flex 1.0 and 1.X did not "crash and burn".  It was one of the most
successfull new product introductions in the history of the company. It
was a 1.X product, and it wasn't perfect, and in particular in advance
of the new VM the performance was not where any of us wanted it yet at
that time.  That said, it still was a massive advance, did very well,
and many people (not everyone) were very successfull with it.  As soon
as we had the performance issues nailed with the new VM, we broadened
the strategy with the free FlexSDK and FlexBuilder 2.  That was (IMO)
the right order of operations.  You mileage may vary, but Flex is taking
off beautifully.
 
b) Our strategy is clear.  The FlexSDK is free and can work with any
backend you choose--directly via XML, JSON, WebServices, or one of many
implementations of AMF.  
 
c) We are building an enterprise server product line as well.  It isn't
intended for everyone.  But it has tremendous value for use cases where
it it relevent and it is also very successfull.  It is clear you are not
interested in it yourself, which is fine.  Others are.  We--Adobe--will
continue to do our best to build great products and if we do people will
use them. If that is a "conspiracy" I don't get it. 
 
d) Many applications have documents/forms as inputs, outputs, artifacts.
Being able to integrate in a deep way with documents, using PDF (an ISO
standard) can be very valuable.  Some of the use cases I have seen
lately include health and benefits enrollment, tax submissions, mortgage
loan origination, insurance claims processing, corrospondence
management, field service management, new account opening, clinical
trial management, new drug submissions, grant applications, etc etc.  I
could go on, but the combination of Flex and LiveCycle (and PDF) enables
some very powerfull and seamless applications that create better
experiences, reduce costs, improve compliance, etc. I am not sure what
is controversial here for you--these apps exist whether they are of
interest to you or not.  If you aren't interested, so be it. There is no
tight coupling with Flex which is free.  There is not now nor has there
ever been a conspiracy. Whether many people or a few people are
interested in LiveCycle is not really an metric that matters to the
success of Flex and I am not sure what you are trying to prove.
 
I trust one day you will come back to the fold -;)  We'll keep working
on advancing Flex and Flash Player and Apollo in the meantime--no
conspiracies.
 
-David



From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Barnes
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:44 PM
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player
Kill our beloved Flex ?



Paul: How many?
 
Seriously, throw the numbers on the table because I got to tell you,
both pre-Microsoft and post-Microsoft things haven't changed that
radically that DMS is more favoured then SAAS. SAAS is the new SOA
dream, and people want it because it's less red-tape to fight for a
capital expense claim against not only software but now hardware +
bodies to support the software that was bought. SAAS delegates that
problem to someone else to solve and so it means in theory less bodies
to support the infrastructure and more focus on supporting the users if
need be. 
 
Not saying DMS is dead by any stretch, i'm sure LiveCycle solves a
million and one points of interest in this space and it does look
compelling when you separate it away from FLEX for a bit. Yet, let's
take a step back and look at the bigger picture, how does FLEX
developers world-wide get any wins from having LiveCycle in the room,
and what percentage of them are in favour of LiveCycle development being
slotted in front of FLEX? 
 
2002 Paul, I've been waiting since 2002.. I waded through swapping and
changing of Flash Framework directions (V1 to V2) like the rest of some
of us on this list. I waited for Royale to hit the street only to watch
it crash and burn due to price tag issues (which we all said loud and
clear this bites! - listen to the customers is a tip). I watched CENTRAL
get thrown our way, and was glad we could use this concept and wondered
why it went away (EULA and again not consulting customers first was the
perception). I watched as FLEX 2.0 came back, but free only the whole
remoting piece dropped off the radar and came back as Flex Data
Services. Only Its hard to find someone whom will host this product
(why?) and secondly it doesn't support .NET and Java anymore? it's only
Java? (It's not as if Remoting + .NET has been a mystery, it was there
in the past and if the WebORB folks for example can make it happen?
surely Adobe could). 
 
It's 2007 and I'm seeing Apo

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Weyert de Boer]

Yeah, you would also say that when .NET was supported wonderfully and we 
got the problem with Java or ColdFusion connectivity? Now I can really 
care less about Java myself, but I can do tell that would hear the same 
sounds then.

Of course, it ain't difficult to write some good connector .NET <> 
Flex/Flash. It's just sad that you need to spend time on it, while its 
being one of the those programming languages widely used.

Yours,

Weyert de Boe

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

Oh yeah!..i agree.. I kind of wanted to dump and run on this rant as well...

Happy to let it die of the natral death it deserves heheeh.


On 4/23/07, Brian Lesser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Hi Paul,
You made me laugh out loud when I read:

"I shouldn't even be responding to this rant."

I've had a very similar feeling!

Some news that may be of interest from the FITC conference here in
Toronto summarized by Aral Balkan:

http://aralbalkan.com/922

/*"I'm very excited about the back-end neutrality and the additional
language intelligence in Flex Builder 3. Refactoring support is going to
be a huge productivity booster and the integrated profiler should prove
very useful.*/"

He's reporting on a quick overview Ted gave about Flex 3 during the
keynote - including a brief bit on how the new back-end platform-neutral
data integration will work. (I'm probably not using his exact words but
the gist was there will be support for Java, .Net, PHP, and others.) I'm
looking forward to Ted's longer Flex presentation.

Yours truly,
-Brian

Paul DeCoursey wrote:

> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com
> , "Scott Barnes" <
scott.barnes@ ...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Paul: How many?
>
> 37... I don't know... I don't even work in that group. I just know
> that it has been very lucrative. I shouldn't even be responding to
> this rant. I'm not too sure how to respond to it really. I don't
> really understand why people think that Adobe needs to be creating
> products that suit the needs of every user. If you want a .NET
> Remoting solution then build one, WebORB did it, why can't you? Adobe
> is making products that make sense for their main customers, and I'm
> sorry to say that isn't us.
>

--
__
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: POD?? E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
(Enter through LB99) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
__







--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Brian Lesser]

Hi Paul,
You made me laugh out loud when I read:

"I shouldn't even be responding to this rant."

I've had a very similar feeling!

Some news that may be of interest from the FITC conference here in 
Toronto summarized by Aral Balkan:

http://aralbalkan.com/922

/*"I'm very excited about the back-end neutrality and the additional 
language intelligence in Flex Builder 3. Refactoring support is going to 
be a huge productivity booster and the integrated profiler should prove 
very useful.*/"

He's reporting on a quick overview Ted gave about Flex 3 during the 
keynote - including a brief bit on how the new back-end platform-neutral 
data integration will work. (I'm probably not using his exact words but 
the gist was there will be support for Java, .Net, PHP, and others.) I'm 
looking forward to Ted's longer Flex presentation.

Yours truly,
-Brian

Paul DeCoursey wrote:

> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ups.com 
> , "Scott Barnes" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Paul: How many?
>
> 37... I don't know... I don't even work in that group. I just know
> that it has been very lucrative. I shouldn't even be responding to
> this rant. I'm not too sure how to respond to it really. I don't
> really understand why people think that Adobe needs to be creating
> products that suit the needs of every user. If you want a .NET
> Remoting solution then build one, WebORB did it, why can't you? Adobe
> is making products that make sense for their main customers, and I'm
> sorry to say that isn't us.
>


-- 
__
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Application Development and Integration
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario   Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: POD??  E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Enter through LB99)   Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
__

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Paul DeCoursey]

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Paul: How many?

37... I don't know... I don't even work in that group.  I just know
that it has been very lucrative. I shouldn't even be responding to
this rant. I'm not too sure how to respond to it really.  I don't
really understand  why people think that Adobe needs to be creating
products that suit the needs of every user.  If you want a .NET
Remoting solution then build one, WebORB did it, why can't you? Adobe
is making products that make sense for their main customers, and I'm
sorry to say that isn't us.

> 
> Seriously, throw the numbers on the table because I got to tell you,
both
> pre-Microsoft and post-Microsoft things haven't changed that
radically that
> DMS is more favoured then SAAS. SAAS is the new SOA dream, and
people want
> it because it's less red-tape to fight for a capital expense claim
against
> not only software but now hardware + bodies to support the software
that was
> bought. SAAS delegates that problem to someone else to solve and so
it means
> in theory less bodies to support the infrastructure and more focus on
> supporting the users if need be.
> 
> Not saying DMS is dead by any stretch, i'm sure LiveCycle solves a
million
> and one points of interest in this space and it does look compelling
when
> you separate it away from FLEX for a bit. Yet, let's take a step
back and
> look at the bigger picture, how does FLEX developers world-wide get
any wins
> from having LiveCycle in the room, and what percentage of them are
in favour
> of LiveCycle development being slotted in front of FLEX?
> 
> 2002 Paul, I've been waiting since 2002.. I waded through swapping and
> changing of Flash Framework directions (V1 to V2) like the rest of
some of
> us on this list. I waited for Royale to hit the street only to watch it
> crash and burn due to price tag issues (which we all said loud and clear
> this bites! - listen to the customers is a tip). I watched CENTRAL get
> thrown our way, and was glad we could use this concept and wondered
why it
> went away (EULA and again not consulting customers first was the
> perception). I watched as FLEX 2.0 came back, but free only the whole
> remoting piece dropped off the radar and came back as Flex Data
Services.
> Only Its hard to find someone whom will host this product (why?) and
> secondly it doesn't support .NET and Java anymore? it's only Java?
(It's not
> as if Remoting + .NET has been a mystery, it was there in the past
and if
> the WebORB folks for example can make it happen? surely Adobe could).
> 
> It's 2007 and I'm seeing Apollo have "PDF" Integration (which raises an
> eyebrow on whom this is really for - could be conspiracy theory
going off
> signal, happy to eat crow if i'm wrong on this one as i'm not absolutely
> sure). Flex Data Services now has a new name, LiveCycle Data
Services and
> FLEX 3 well.. i won't bother... I don't know all the answers but at
the very
> least, I'm seeing all the warning signs of the past and for once,
i'd like
> to raise this (once bit -ok, twice bit -fair enough, thrice bit no
thanks).
> 
> 2002 - 2007, we should be knee deep in RIA happiness and I should be
still
> on the street making bundles of $$ and not working for Microsoft.
Fact of
> the matter is I'm working for them, because to be openly honest i'm
going to
> start over my RIA quest and see what these guys do with Silverlight
and WPF
> as I've done my tour of duty with FLEX and have lots of scars to
prove it
> (It wasn't all bad, I did make a nice living and once I broke
through the
> learning barrier and was able to memorize the entire framework it
was easy
> just lots of fingers on keyboard stuff).
> 
>

Good luck with that.

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

Paul: How many?

Seriously, throw the numbers on the table because I got to tell you, both
pre-Microsoft and post-Microsoft things haven't changed that radically that
DMS is more favoured then SAAS. SAAS is the new SOA dream, and people want
it because it's less red-tape to fight for a capital expense claim against
not only software but now hardware + bodies to support the software that was
bought. SAAS delegates that problem to someone else to solve and so it means
in theory less bodies to support the infrastructure and more focus on
supporting the users if need be.

Not saying DMS is dead by any stretch, i'm sure LiveCycle solves a million
and one points of interest in this space and it does look compelling when
you separate it away from FLEX for a bit. Yet, let's take a step back and
look at the bigger picture, how does FLEX developers world-wide get any wins
from having LiveCycle in the room, and what percentage of them are in favour
of LiveCycle development being slotted in front of FLEX?

2002 Paul, I've been waiting since 2002.. I waded through swapping and
changing of Flash Framework directions (V1 to V2) like the rest of some of
us on this list. I waited for Royale to hit the street only to watch it
crash and burn due to price tag issues (which we all said loud and clear
this bites! - listen to the customers is a tip). I watched CENTRAL get
thrown our way, and was glad we could use this concept and wondered why it
went away (EULA and again not consulting customers first was the
perception). I watched as FLEX 2.0 came back, but free only the whole
remoting piece dropped off the radar and came back as Flex Data Services.
Only Its hard to find someone whom will host this product (why?) and
secondly it doesn't support .NET and Java anymore? it's only Java? (It's not
as if Remoting + .NET has been a mystery, it was there in the past and if
the WebORB folks for example can make it happen? surely Adobe could).

It's 2007 and I'm seeing Apollo have "PDF" Integration (which raises an
eyebrow on whom this is really for - could be conspiracy theory going off
signal, happy to eat crow if i'm wrong on this one as i'm not absolutely
sure). Flex Data Services now has a new name, LiveCycle Data Services and
FLEX 3 well.. i won't bother... I don't know all the answers but at the very
least, I'm seeing all the warning signs of the past and for once, i'd like
to raise this (once bit -ok, twice bit -fair enough, thrice bit no thanks).

2002 - 2007, we should be knee deep in RIA happiness and I should be still
on the street making bundles of $$ and not working for Microsoft. Fact of
the matter is I'm working for them, because to be openly honest i'm going to
start over my RIA quest and see what these guys do with Silverlight and WPF
as I've done my tour of duty with FLEX and have lots of scars to prove it
(It wasn't all bad, I did make a nice living and once I broke through the
learning barrier and was able to memorize the entire framework it was easy
just lots of fingers on keyboard stuff).





On 4/23/07, Paul DeCoursey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Scott
Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for
> electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions?

Quite a few actually. The company I work for provides this as a
service for many fortune 500 companies. Some of those companies are
right now in the process of moving to Flex for the front end of their
forms systems. PDF has already deeply penetrated the business world.
Why do you feel PDF is a danger to business? It has many benefits
including being a universal format that is easy to read. It includes
versioning and security features required by SOX compliance. It just
makes sense for many organizations to adopt.

Paul







--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[dorkie dork from dorktown]

you wrote,
How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for
electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions?  PDF is a danger in some
organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as
possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management
Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has
some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into
what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development
world-wide.

that's what i'm talking about! there is a goal here that i thought Flex/RIA
was trying to address. i thought that was to make development and developers
lives easier and add new and necessary features to progress that.

i love flex. it is an amazing vehicle but i think we need to get the
foundation built. the flex 2 framework is part of the foundation. the data
services adapters on the server need to be part of that foundation. at least
basic amf remoting deserializers / classes. half the benefit of flex is the
data communications. client side *is* only half the application.

flex builder - reasonably priced
flex sdk - free (great for mass adoption)
flex data services - out of reach for mass adoption of flex

IMO that is the reason people would shop around to another solution.

i don't see Silverlight's path in this market. if it does have something out
of the box it will have a huge advantage.


On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Paul,

How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for
electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions?  PDF is a danger in some
organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as
possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management
Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has
some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into
what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development
world-wide.

2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, hey he also
was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, so figured
he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be bigger! Yet,
isn't as widespread.

So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three tiers of User
Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the runtime stck
with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm footing, then go
look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom are just
as important, have validated the substance of the technology on merit.

Good Experience
AJAX  / HTML / CSS

Great Experience
Silverlight

Ultimate Experience
Windows Presentation Foundation


ASP.NET 2.0 has reduced effort by up to two-thirds since ASP 1.0 was
produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion developer for 9 years I'm amazed
at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to AJAX, so I can only hint that
going from ASP.NET AJAX to Silverlight is going to be enormous in
productivity gains and with the right tools, this hopefully should seem
effortless. Steve.B looked like a loon when he jumped up and down about
"Developers, Developers, Developers" but he was right, this is where the
focus should be at the start of technology, expand when you get their
blessing first and this is based off of "uptake".

Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but Microsoft's
focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom have been
using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable by
offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has it's own
agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I echo, it's
about co-existence not changing technology stacks.

Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as I know
they can do better (similar with Microsoft, only reverse, great at input but
at times need work on output). No two companies are perfect.

I rant but I'm not buying Adobe's direction on this one - if I may say
that clocked off MSFT's payroll and using Flex on my weekend(s).


On 4/22/07, Paul DeCoursey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   I agree that Adobe is ignoring a large market. The low cost remoting
> product kind of already exists in open source, third party, and in
> house solutions. What Adobe is doing with Live Cycle is capturing the
> niche markets that do need PDF workflow in their RIA Applications.
> These companies have deep pockets and will use these for projects that
> can save them millions of dollars a year.
>
> I don't think that Adobe needs to have the low cost remoting product
> in their line, and I think that Adobe is counting on third parties and
> the community to provide those solutions.
>
> Paul
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Scott
> Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > I got could point for point with you and sound like a goose, but
> overall,
> > I'll push back 

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Paul DeCoursey]

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Paul,
> 
> How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for
> electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions? 

Quite a few actually.  The company I work for provides this as a
service for many fortune 500 companies.  Some of those companies are
right now in the process of moving to Flex for the front end of their
forms systems. PDF has already deeply penetrated the business world. 
Why do you feel PDF is a danger to business?  It has many benefits
including being a universal format that is easy to read.  It includes
versioning and security features required by SOX compliance. It just
makes sense for many organizations to adopt.

Paul

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[John C. Bland II]

I'll respond on the blog. :-D

On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


   John I agree with you on a lot of the points, but I am driven by the
past, present and future and it's murky on both brands to be honest. I get
were Microsoft are going, I don't get were Adobe ar going so I'm affiliated
to the MS Brand for my RIA going forward

Want to know why?

http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog/archive/2007/04/22/thanks-silverlight-you-just-validated-ria-wrong-here-s-why.aspx


I decided to make a post about my history with Flash/FLEX from 2002 to
2007and hopefully illustrate why I prefer Microsoft's thoughts in the end
and also disagree with Flash vs Silverlight discussions. I think they are
still different technologies that may have an overlap in a few spots, but
the direcion is different.

 On 4/22/07, John C. Bland II <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Scott, you are right about co-existence. I've been following WPF (and
> /e) for a year now. Silverlight has quite a ways before competing with Flash
> but it is clear there is a market for Silverlight.
>
> Bottom line, competition breeds innovation, IMO. With Silverlight being
> here...Flash HAS to step up and I mean the player. This is only going to
> make Adobe seriously make some big advancements. Not that they have been
> lacking with updates but now the pressure is on.
>
> I mean...who's pushed Flash in the last few years? MM/Adobe developers
> and the community. That's all well and good but people will be looking at
> Silverlight apps/sites/animations and saying "I wish Flash could do this!"
> This would be big time pressure on Adobe to produce results.
>
> * Silverlight will not crush Flash.
> * Flash is no longer the only player in the game.
> * Both have their own markets.
> * Flash will be on top for many years to come.
> * I'm happy Silverlight is as good as it is and still growing.
> (remember, v1 isn't out yet and it has some Flash's new abilities)
>
> Disclaimer:
> I'm a Flash Platform geek to the core. Being objective is just a good
> quality. ;-)
>
> On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> >
> >Paul,
> >
> > How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for
> > electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions?  PDF is a danger in some
> > organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as
> > possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management
> > Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has
> > some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into
> > what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development
> > world-wide.
> >
> > 2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, hey he
> > also was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, so
> > figured he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be
> > bigger! Yet, isn't as widespread.
> >
> > So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three tiers of
> > User Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the runtime
> > stck with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm footing,
> > then go look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom
> > are just as important, have validated the substance of the technology on
> > merit.
> >
> > Good Experience
> > AJAX  / HTML / CSS
> >
> > Great Experience
> > Silverlight
> >
> > Ultimate Experience
> > Windows Presentation Foundation
> >
> >
> > ASP.NET  2.0 has reduced effort by up to
> > two-thirds since ASP 1.0 was produced, I say this as being a
> > Coldfusion developer for 9 years I'm amazed at how fluent one is able to go
> > from ASP to AJAX, so I can only hint that going from 
ASP.NETAJAX to Silverlight is going to be enormous in productivity 
gains and with
> > the right tools, this hopefully should seem effortless. Steve.B looked
> > like a loon when he jumped up and down about "Developers, Developers,
> > Developers" but he was right, this is where the focus should be at the start
> > of technology, expand when you get their blessing first and this is based
> > off of "uptake".
> >
> > Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but Microsoft's
> > focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom have been
> > using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable by
> > offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has it's own
> > agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I echo, it's
> > about co-existence not changing technology stacks.
> >
> > Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as I
> > know they can do better (similar with Microsoft, only reverse, great at
> > input but at times need work on output). No two companies are perfect.
> >
> > I rant but I'm not buying Adobe's direction on this one - if I may say
> > that clocked off MSFT's payroll and using

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Weyert de Boer]

I only care about WPF not the crossplatform part of it WPF/e or 
silverlight. WPF is so much fun with XAML. I am even using it as the 
user interface engine for one Win32 project which hosting WPF content.

Yours,
Weyert

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

John I agree with you on a lot of the points, but I am driven by the past,
present and future and it's murky on both brands to be honest. I get were
Microsoft are going, I don't get were Adobe ar going so I'm affiliated to
the MS Brand for my RIA going forward

Want to know why?

http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog/archive/2007/04/22/thanks-silverlight-you-just-validated-ria-wrong-here-s-why.aspx

I decided to make a post about my history with Flash/FLEX from 2002 to
2007and hopefully illustrate why I prefer Microsoft's thoughts in the end
and also disagree with Flash vs Silverlight discussions. I think they are
still different technologies that may have an overlap in a few spots, but
the direcion is different.

On 4/22/07, John C. Bland II <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


   Scott, you are right about co-existence. I've been following WPF (and
/e) for a year now. Silverlight has quite a ways before competing with Flash
but it is clear there is a market for Silverlight.

Bottom line, competition breeds innovation, IMO. With Silverlight being
here...Flash HAS to step up and I mean the player. This is only going to
make Adobe seriously make some big advancements. Not that they have been
lacking with updates but now the pressure is on.

I mean...who's pushed Flash in the last few years? MM/Adobe developers and
the community. That's all well and good but people will be looking at
Silverlight apps/sites/animations and saying "I wish Flash could do this!"
This would be big time pressure on Adobe to produce results.

* Silverlight will not crush Flash.
* Flash is no longer the only player in the game.
* Both have their own markets.
* Flash will be on top for many years to come.
* I'm happy Silverlight is as good as it is and still growing. (remember,
v1 isn't out yet and it has some Flash's new abilities)

Disclaimer:
I'm a Flash Platform geek to the core. Being objective is just a good
quality. ;-)

On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Paul,
>
> How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for
> electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions?  PDF is a danger in some
> organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as
> possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management
> Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has
> some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into
> what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development
> world-wide.
>
> 2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, hey he
> also was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, so
> figured he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be
> bigger! Yet, isn't as widespread.
>
> So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three tiers of
> User Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the runtime
> stck with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm footing,
> then go look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom
> are just as important, have validated the substance of the technology on
> merit.
>
> Good Experience
> AJAX  / HTML / CSS
>
> Great Experience
> Silverlight
>
> Ultimate Experience
> Windows Presentation Foundation
>
>
> ASP.NET  2.0 has reduced effort by up to
> two-thirds since ASP 1.0 was produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion
> developer for 9 years I'm amazed at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to
> AJAX, so I can only hint that going from ASP.NET  AJAX
> to Silverlight is going to be enormous in productivity gains and with the
> right tools, this hopefully should seem effortless. Steve.B looked like
> a loon when he jumped up and down about "Developers, Developers, Developers"
> but he was right, this is where the focus should be at the start of
> technology, expand when you get their blessing first and this is based off
> of "uptake".
>
> Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but Microsoft's
> focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom have been
> using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable by
> offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has it's own
> agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I echo, it's
> about co-existence not changing technology stacks.
>
> Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as I know
> they can do better (similar with Microsoft, only reverse, great at input but
> at times need work on output). No two companies are perfect.
>
> I rant but I'm not buying Adobe's direction on this one - if I may say
> that clocked off MSFT's payroll and using Flex on my weekend(s).
>
>
> On 4/22/07, Paul DeCoursey <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> >
> >   I agree that Adobe is ignoring a large market. The low cost remoting
> > product kind of already exists in open source, third party, and in
> > house solu

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[John C. Bland II]

Scott, you are right about co-existence. I've been following WPF (and /e)
for a year now. Silverlight has quite a ways before competing with Flash but
it is clear there is a market for Silverlight.

Bottom line, competition breeds innovation, IMO. With Silverlight being
here...Flash HAS to step up and I mean the player. This is only going to
make Adobe seriously make some big advancements. Not that they have been
lacking with updates but now the pressure is on.

I mean...who's pushed Flash in the last few years? MM/Adobe developers and
the community. That's all well and good but people will be looking at
Silverlight apps/sites/animations and saying "I wish Flash could do this!"
This would be big time pressure on Adobe to produce results.

* Silverlight will not crush Flash.
* Flash is no longer the only player in the game.
* Both have their own markets.
* Flash will be on top for many years to come.
* I'm happy Silverlight is as good as it is and still growing. (remember, v1
isn't out yet and it has some Flash's new abilities)

Disclaimer:
I'm a Flash Platform geek to the core. Being objective is just a good
quality. ;-)

On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


   Paul,

How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for
electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions?  PDF is a danger in some
organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as
possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management
Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has
some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into
what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development
world-wide.

2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, hey he also
was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, so figured
he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be bigger! Yet,
isn't as widespread.

So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three tiers of User
Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the runtime stck
with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm footing, then go
look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom are just
as important, have validated the substance of the technology on merit.

Good Experience
AJAX  / HTML / CSS

Great Experience
Silverlight

Ultimate Experience
Windows Presentation Foundation


ASP.NET  2.0 has reduced effort by up to two-thirds since
ASP 1.0 was produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion developer for 9
years I'm amazed at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to AJAX, so I can
only hint that going from ASP.NET  AJAX to Silverlight is
going to be enormous in productivity gains and with the right tools, this
hopefully should seem effortless. Steve.B looked like a loon when he
jumped up and down about "Developers, Developers, Developers" but he was
right, this is where the focus should be at the start of technology, expand
when you get their blessing first and this is based off of "uptake".

Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but Microsoft's
focus is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom have been
using DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable by
offering the above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has it's own
agenda, and Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I echo, it's
about co-existence not changing technology stacks.

Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as I know
they can do better (similar with Microsoft, only reverse, great at input but
at times need work on output). No two companies are perfect.

I rant but I'm not buying Adobe's direction on this one - if I may say
that clocked off MSFT's payroll and using Flex on my weekend(s).


On 4/22/07, Paul DeCoursey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   I agree that Adobe is ignoring a large market. The low cost remoting
> product kind of already exists in open source, third party, and in
> house solutions. What Adobe is doing with Live Cycle is capturing the
> niche markets that do need PDF workflow in their RIA Applications.
> These companies have deep pockets and will use these for projects that
> can save them millions of dollars a year.
>
> I don't think that Adobe needs to have the low cost remoting product
> in their line, and I think that Adobe is counting on third parties and
> the community to provide those solutions.
>
> Paul
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Scott
> Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > I got could point for point with you and sound like a goose, but
> overall,
> > I'll push back with a question. How many people on this list are in
> need of
> > PDF work flow generation vs Remoting that's easier to work with on
> both JAVA
> > and .Net while at the same time have a low cost barrier. I'd like to
> think
> > that Scrapblog.com 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

Paul,

How many enterprise / companies do you know are shopping around for
electronic forms built in PDF vs SAAS solutions?  PDF is a danger in some
organisations, it's something they want to put as much distance away from as
possible and prefer to leave them buried in the Document Management
Solution(s). I'm not saying it's not worth the persuit (I think MSFT has
some stuff in this space as well, forgive me as I've not cared to look into
what they are) but do so *NOT* at the expense of FLEX/RIA development
world-wide.

2002 RIA Theory was written down, people bought it (I for one, hey he also
was the brains behind CF, so I owe my mortgage to his last idea, so figured
he'd be worth the second). It's 2007 and RIA is supposed to be bigger! Yet,
isn't as widespread.

So, Microsoft are looking to give developers access to three tiers of User
Experience through a more mature approach that goes beyond the runtime stck
with a focus on the developers initially, get them on firm footing, then go
look at the higher ends of town as by this point developers, whom are just
as important, have validated the substance of the technology on merit.

Good Experience
AJAX  / HTML / CSS

Great Experience
Silverlight

Ultimate Experience
Windows Presentation Foundation


ASP.NET 2.0 has reduced effort by up to two-thirds since ASP 1.0 was
produced, I say this as being a Coldfusion developer for 9 years I'm amazed
at how fluent one is able to go from ASP to AJAX, so I can only hint that
going from ASP.NET AJAX to Silverlight is going to be enormous in
productivity gains and with the right tools, this hopefully should seem
effortless. Steve.B looked like a loon when he jumped up and down about
"Developers, Developers, Developers" but he was right, this is where the
focus should be at the start of technology, expand when you get their
blessing first and this is based off of "uptake".

Validating RIA? Hate to break the news to one and all, but Microsoft's focus
is to stimulate the online/offline application market whom have been using
DHTML solutions for years, to get more robust and scaleable by offering the
above three tiers of experience potential. Flash has it's own agenda, and
Microsoft isn't about to crush that - hence I why I echo, it's about
co-existence not changing technology stacks.

Adobe make great output, but I worry at times about the input as I know they
can do better (similar with Microsoft, only reverse, great at input but at
times need work on output). No two companies are perfect.

I rant but I'm not buying Adobe's direction on this one - if I may say that
clocked off MSFT's payroll and using Flex on my weekend(s).


On 4/22/07, Paul DeCoursey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  I agree that Adobe is ignoring a large market. The low cost remoting
product kind of already exists in open source, third party, and in
house solutions. What Adobe is doing with Live Cycle is capturing the
niche markets that do need PDF workflow in their RIA Applications.
These companies have deep pockets and will use these for projects that
can save them millions of dollars a year.

I don't think that Adobe needs to have the low cost remoting product
in their line, and I think that Adobe is counting on third parties and
the community to provide those solutions.

Paul

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Scott
Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> I got could point for point with you and sound like a goose, but
overall,
> I'll push back with a question. How many people on this list are in
need of
> PDF work flow generation vs Remoting that's easier to work with on
both JAVA
> and .Net while at the same time have a low cost barrier. I'd like to
think
> that Scrapblog.com  concepts could do more with
Adobe technology, instead
> they had to shop around and thankfully WebORB folks have a descent
product
> to cope with this burden.
>
> LiveCycle is just not ready to be slotted into RIA as it's still
somewhat
> foreign to the "RIA" momentum. It's forcing the issue.
> Microsoft has more to learn, and I'll be sure to flog them where I
can to
> make that happen. I'm in Seattle next week and i'm not there to eat
> lunch/dinners and party, I have reasons and it's to do with Web 2.0
and RIA
> :)
>
> --
> Regards,
> Scott Barnes
>







--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Paul DeCoursey]

I agree that Adobe is ignoring a large market.  The low cost remoting
product kind of already exists in open source, third party, and in
house solutions. What Adobe is doing with Live Cycle is capturing the
niche markets that do need PDF workflow in their RIA Applications.
These companies have deep pockets and will use these for projects that
can save them millions of dollars a year. 

I don't think that Adobe needs to have the low cost remoting product
in their line, and I think that Adobe is counting on third parties and
the community to provide those solutions.

Paul


--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> I got could point for point with you and sound like a goose, but
overall,
> I'll push back with a question. How many people on this list are in
need of
> PDF work flow generation vs Remoting that's easier to work with on
both JAVA
> and .Net while at the same time have a low cost barrier. I'd like to
think
> that Scrapblog.com concepts could do more with Adobe technology, instead
> they had to shop around and thankfully WebORB folks have a descent
product
> to cope with this burden.
> 
> LiveCycle is just not ready to be slotted into RIA as it's still
somewhat
> foreign to the "RIA" momentum. It's forcing the issue.
> Microsoft has more to learn, and I'll be sure to flog them where I
can to
> make that happen. I'm in Seattle next week and i'm not there to eat
> lunch/dinners and party, I have reasons and it's to do with Web 2.0
and RIA
> :)
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Scott Barnes
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[dorkie dork from dorktown]

I'd like to say "me too" to the FDS thing. It really is an issue. They only
address Java while ignoring the .NET, PHP and Ruby crowd. They also market
FDS way above what the market can bear. In marketing you have to know what
clients are willing to pay for your solution over another solution. Without
options like AMFPHP and WebORB Flash would not be as successful as it is
today. Still, these entities can only support what their free time allows
them.

As far as Silverlight goes, i like the name, i like the site, it looks cool.
I think it validates that RIA technology allows you to do so much more for
your user again. The web took away the power of the desktop. RIA is bring
the power of applications to the web. For MS to make this choice to pursue
this is clear that they see the value and need in it. If I owned the Flash
Player I would not be able to compete when MS decided to play. Since its
Adobe, I'm not bothered at all, except for the stupid FDS thing. I'm trying
to convince my boss to use Flex and like Scott says, this is a entry
barrier. When you are trying to get software adopted like Flex (people are
still not sure about it) you don't make it so difficult to take advantage
of. Adobe knows this, thats why they don't put the price on the site. It
would scare people away. I can only hope Silverlight has some sort of FDS
for *much* cheaper (free?) than FDS. Anyway, starting to rant.

my 1.98 cents


On 4/21/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Brian,

I got could point for point with you and sound like a goose, but overall,
I'll push back with a question. How many people on this list are in need of
PDF work flow generation vs Remoting that's easier to work with on both JAVA
and .Net while at the same time have a low cost barrier. I'd like to think
that Scrapblog.com concepts could do more with Adobe technology, instead
they had to shop around and thankfully WebORB folks have a descent product
to cope with this burden.

LiveCycle is just not ready to be slotted into RIA as it's still somewhat
foreign to the "RIA" momentum. It's forcing the issue.
Microsoft has more to learn, and I'll be sure to flog them where I can to
make that happen. I'm in Seattle next week and i'm not there to eat
lunch/dinners and party, I have reasons and it's to do with Web 2.0 and
RIA :)

--
Regards,
Scott Barnes


 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

Brian,

I got could point for point with you and sound like a goose, but overall,
I'll push back with a question. How many people on this list are in need of
PDF work flow generation vs Remoting that's easier to work with on both JAVA
and .Net while at the same time have a low cost barrier. I'd like to think
that Scrapblog.com concepts could do more with Adobe technology, instead
they had to shop around and thankfully WebORB folks have a descent product
to cope with this burden.

LiveCycle is just not ready to be slotted into RIA as it's still somewhat
foreign to the "RIA" momentum. It's forcing the issue.
Microsoft has more to learn, and I'll be sure to flog them where I can to
make that happen. I'm in Seattle next week and i'm not there to eat
lunch/dinners and party, I have reasons and it's to do with Web 2.0 and RIA
:)

--
Regards,
Scott Barnes

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Brian Lesser]

I personally don't see any reason to be newly concerned about "LiveCycle 
+ FLEX" as opposed to Flex Data Services and Flex.  LiveCycle is a suite 
of products including: Adobe LiveCycle Workflow, Assembler, Policy 
Server, Designer, Document Security, Form Manager, PDF Generator, etc.

It appears Adobe is both enhancing and rebranding Flex Data Services as 
LiveCycle Data Services. Rebranding and enhancing a product in and of 
themselves don't indicate that there is a new problem - at least to me. 
At first glance, Adobe seems to be doing a lot of interesting work 
within LiveCycle Data Services. The ability to generate PDF, the portal 
feature, and AJAX data service all look interesting. (I'm still working 
my way through the Beta developer doc.) To Adobe's credit I think 
LiveCycle Data Services provides a lot more functionality than the 
simple Flash Remoting Gateway that started it all and that Macromedia 
tried to sell for $999/CPU.

I also think it is important to acknowledge that Flex 2.0 was a 
fundamental departure from the licensing model of Flex 1.x. We all know 
the compiler and framework are now available at no cost and I believe 
(correct me if I'm wrong) the server-side Web compiler is also available 
free. The cost of the IDE - which I enjoy using - is not unreasonable. 
Flex clients can communicate directly with Web Services and to 
open-source and commercial Flash/Flex Remoting Gateways. I think that 
represents an important change:

With a Remoting Gateway I can build powerful and *efficient* Flex 
applications that work with an Enterprise back end without using 
LiveCycle/Flex DataServices at all.

On the other hand I think mvbaffa is making a somewhat different point. 
The entry barrier of moving from the no-cost commercial FDS license 
through the $6,000/CPU Department to the $20,000 Enterprise license will 
often be too high for much of the current Java developer/Enterprise 
market that Adobe wants to appeal to. That's partly because the cost and 
difficulty of using Java in the Enterprise has been declining while the 
power of what it can do has been steadily improving. When you look 
carefully at what you can get from JBoss or say Mule (see: 
http://mule.codehaus.org/display/MULE/Home) - to choose only two 
examples - you'll know what I mean. (My apologies if you've been there 
and worked through all their projects/modules already.) That Adobe is 
focusing on Java to start with rather than .Net is not surprising in 
this context and given Microsoft's offerings.

At any rate since you (Scott) works for Microsoft it might be worth 
pointing out that Microsoft's server-side story can also be costly once 
you get away from the loss leaders Microsoft includes with the server 
OS. The value propositions for developers who want to add on to 
Microsoft's enterprise offerings get especially complicated if they need 
to push Client Access Licenses as part of new services or products.

I think Microsoft and Adobe are two companies committed to making money 
selling servers into the Enterprise. From my perspective Adobe's 
licensing around Flex 2.0 and the availability of open source and 
commercial Remoting gateways, and RTMP capable servers, solved the 
fundamental barrier to entry for developers. You don't need Flex Data 
Services or LiveCycle Data Services to rock and roll with Flex.

Yes, I'd like LiveCycle Data Services to be a lot less expensive than 
FDS just as I would like to pay a lot less for many Microsoft products 
and services I use. As someone who had to work through Microsoft's many 
licensing options and SKUs in great detail over the years, do I enjoy 
reading a Microsoft represenative piling on to complaints about Adobe's 
pricing and SKUs?  Not so much.

Yours truly,
-Brian



Scott Barnes wrote:

> For the record, I was very vocal about Flash's potential all those 
> years ago as well (In 2004, I made this post http://www.mossyblo 
> g.com/archives/ 276.cfm ). 
> I'm not trying to stir the politics, but i even look at the CS3 sku's 
> and ponder what the hell is going on? (keep it simple).
>  
> Flash has always been one of these pieces that I thought had so much 
> more potential than what it has today, I mean you're right FLEX 1.0 
> was not only ahead of the game - but - pre-AJAX movement, so there was 
> enormous potential here and it's why since i'm in an openly honest 
> mood I hate the very though LiveCycle + FLEX are living side by side 
> another as I get that feeling again "Here we go, different name, 
> numbers stay about the same". (Yes I know I'm now being negative and 
> being a Microsoft employee it's now sounding like FUD, but in 2004 I 
> had these feelings and I was right, 2007 they are back, difference is 
> i have MS Logo on my back).
>  
> I love FLEX, just hate the distractions around it.
>
>  
> On 4/20/07, *mvbaffa* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] com > 
> wrote:
>
> Adobe constructed a gr

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

For the record, I was very vocal about Flash's potential all those years ago
as well (In 2004, I made this post http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/276.cfm).
I'm not trying to stir the politics, but i even look at the CS3 sku's and
ponder what the hell is going on? (keep it simple).

Flash has always been one of these pieces that I thought had so much more
potential than what it has today, I mean you're right FLEX 1.0 was not only
ahead of the game - but - pre-AJAX movement, so there was enormous potential
here and it's why since i'm in an openly honest mood I hate the very though
LiveCycle + FLEX are living side by side another as I get that feeling again
"Here we go, different name, numbers stay about the same". (Yes I know I'm
now being negative and being a Microsoft employee it's now sounding like
FUD, but in 2004 I had these feelings and I was right, 2007 they are back,
difference is i have MS Logo on my back).

I love FLEX, just hate the distractions around it.


On 4/20/07, mvbaffa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Adobe constructed a great product. The conception and architecture
are excelent, but the comercial strategy is not so good.

Macromedia had something like 4 years ahead of Microsoft, since
Flex 1.5, that was a very good product too. Macromedia insisted to
to seel it for US$18 k, nobody bought it  Microsoft at that time
did not exist in RIA Market.

Then Adobe came and Flex became more accessible. But Adobe charges
FDS in US$ 20K and does not pay attention to .NET developers. Well it
seems to me that this is another big mistake.

if Adobe continues with this kind of comercial strategy, i am afraid
that our beloved Flex will loose the race.

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Scott
Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> On 4/20/07, Michael Schmalle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I have to put my 2 cents down for prosperity sake.
> >
> 4
> which is important :)
>
> All you people that live in cities and constantly sicken
yourselves by
> > your own pollution, need to live on a mountain for a couple
years, look back
> > at what you say and see how hilarious it all is.
> >
>
> I live near a desert? does that' coun't for isolation and freedom of
> thoughts? (Sorry in Australia, our mountains are hard to come by at
times).
>
>
>
> > How many times can the battle of north and south be fought
and... won?
> > :)
> >
>
> Until East & West figure out it's time to join in, and then we go on
> Springer... i got dibs on the chair throwing...
>
>
>
> Listening to people engrossed in the politics of banter on the
internet
> > is much more funny than turning on the TV these days.
> >
>
> They still have TV? you mean YouTube + TV can co-exist? next thing
you'll
> say Silverlight and Flash can co-exist.. pft crazy talk.
>
>
>
> Scott, your just a person that likes getting people talking
regardless of
> > the side your on. Your good at it to.
> >
>
> Oh stop, you say that to all the Evangelists.. now you're making me
blush
> *blush in ascii art*.
>
>
>
> As far as Microsoft's world domination, I doubt it. No one
ever 'wins'
> > forever. I think most of the resistance you feel around your
posts is
> > exactly what Dave Wolf said... now theres options, people want
choice. I
> > guess that is what the market and developers 'against' Microsoft
have been
> > saying forever... WE WANT CHOICE!
> >
>
> Watch what you wish for, you just may get it...
>
>
>
> I think that is what being human is all about.
> >
> > Peace, Mike
> >
>
> If I didn't have leg cramps right about now, i'd stand and applaud
you :)
> (Seriously - Politics is bound to happen when you have to large
corporations
> saying to all of you - try my stuff, no try mine, nooo try mine...
and so
> on.. Adobe & Microsoft compete on a number of levels while at the
same time
> - this will freak the kids out in the front row - without
Microsoft, Adobe
> couldn't of gotten to where it is today. Without Microsoft Flash's
> penetration numbers wouldn't be where they are/were today (but its
ok, no
> thanks required for the Updates / Default installs we put on the
box when we
> ship etc). I should also mention sites like Honda, MySpace, YouTube
and
> Movie Sites etc were also strong drivers in this space more so then
us. Yet
> if i say this outloud then we could sober up a bit and no1 likes a
buzz
> killer ;)
>
> Point: Lighten up folks, it's just technology - or should I say
Silverlight,
> Light up the web! :)
>
>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Scott Barnes
> Developer Evangelist
> Microsoft - whom wrote this with GMAIL.. shhh, don't tell HQ or
they'll dock
> my pay ...as Hotmail and GMAIl cannot co-exist at all! it's in the
rules
> alongside Silverlight and Flash :)
>







--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[mvbaffa]

Adobe constructed a great product. The conception and architecture 
are excelent, but the comercial strategy is not so good.

Macromedia had something like 4 years ahead of Microsoft, since 
Flex 1.5, that was a very good product too. Macromedia insisted to 
to seel it for US$18 k, nobody bought it  Microsoft at that time 
did not exist in RIA Market.

Then Adobe came and Flex became more accessible. But Adobe charges 
FDS in US$ 20K and does not pay attention to .NET developers. Well it 
seems to me that this is another big mistake.

if Adobe continues with this kind of comercial strategy, i am afraid 
that our beloved Flex will loose the race.


--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> On 4/20/07, Michael Schmalle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >   I have to put my 2 cents down for prosperity sake.
> >
> 4
> which is important :)
> 
>All you people that live in cities and constantly sicken 
yourselves by
> > your own pollution, need to live on a mountain for a couple 
years, look back
> > at what you say and see how hilarious it all is.
> >
> 
> I live near a desert? does that' coun't for isolation and freedom of
> thoughts? (Sorry in Australia, our mountains are hard to come by at 
times).
> 
> 
> 
> >   How many times can the battle of north and south be fought 
and... won?
> > :)
> >
> 
> Until East & West figure out it's time to join in, and then we go on
> Springer... i got dibs on the chair throwing...
> 
> 
> 
>Listening to people engrossed in the politics of banter on the 
internet
> > is much more funny than turning on the TV these days.
> >
> 
> They still have TV? you mean YouTube + TV can co-exist? next thing 
you'll
> say Silverlight and Flash can co-exist.. pft crazy talk.
> 
> 
> 
>Scott, your just a person that likes getting people talking 
regardless of
> > the side your on. Your good at it to.
> >
> 
> Oh stop, you say that to all the Evangelists.. now you're making me 
blush
> *blush in ascii art*.
> 
> 
> 
>As far as Microsoft's world domination, I doubt it. No one 
ever 'wins'
> > forever. I think most of the resistance you feel around your 
posts is
> > exactly what Dave Wolf said... now theres options, people want 
choice. I
> > guess that is what the market and developers 'against' Microsoft 
have been
> > saying forever... WE WANT CHOICE!
> >
> 
> Watch what you wish for, you just may get it...
> 
> 
> 
>I think that is what being human is all about.
> >
> > Peace, Mike
> >
> 
> If I didn't have leg cramps right about now, i'd stand and applaud 
you :)
> (Seriously - Politics is bound to happen when you have to large 
corporations
> saying to all of you - try my stuff, no try mine, nooo try mine... 
and so
> on.. Adobe & Microsoft compete on a number of levels while at the 
same time
> - this will freak the kids out in the front row - without 
Microsoft, Adobe
> couldn't of gotten to where it is today. Without Microsoft Flash's
> penetration numbers wouldn't be where they are/were today (but its 
ok, no
> thanks required for the Updates / Default installs we put on the 
box when we
> ship etc). I should also mention sites like Honda, MySpace, YouTube 
and
> Movie Sites etc were also strong drivers in this space more so then 
us. Yet
> if i say this outloud then we could sober up a bit and no1 likes a 
buzz
> killer ;)
> 
> Point: Lighten up folks, it's just technology - or should I say 
Silverlight,
> Light up the web! :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Scott Barnes
> Developer Evangelist
> Microsoft - whom wrote this with GMAIL.. shhh, don't tell HQ or 
they'll dock
> my pay ...as Hotmail and GMAIl cannot co-exist at all! it's in the 
rules
> alongside Silverlight and Flash :)
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Weyert de Boer]

Puff. Avalon or WPF just rocks! :-)
I luv it. Great, to use a the user interface engine in application.
Easier to leverage then the Flash ActiveX control 

Weyert

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Robert Thompson]

Take it from me: Thomson v Microsoft
   
  1. The documents I've seen waht to make me through up (dry heave)
   
  2. Microsoft is involved in patent them, z4 technologies $140 recently is 
proof.  So is Sun's settlement for MS hacking code.
   
  3. Would you trust Microsoft.  Bill Gates is a desperate "LOSER"  I don't 
care how much money he has -- STEVE JOBS IS AN INNOVATOR, Bill Gates is a 
huster stealing from you peole in their early 20's.

Paul DeCoursey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  I agree that there is room in the RIA space for another player. I
think that MS has a few things going against it for this launch. 
First off it's a new plugin with little real world experience. It is
going to take a long time for the market to become saturated enough
for it to be relevant. It took many years for the Flash Player to gain
acceptance, and it's still not a total success (read any posting on
slashdot that is related to Flash to see what I mean). Throw on top of
that Microsofts reputation in Internet Security and you have a user
base that will be uneasy with the install.

I see this going one of two ways. Silverlight takes more than 2 years
to reach saturation, partially fueled by the reluctance of the
population to upgrade to Vista. This causes developers to choose other
options which in turn drive the next big web trend beyond RIA. Or
Sliverlight is a moderate success and everyone is happy.

Or (sorry, I just thought of this so it's actually 3 ways) Silverlight
is a big success and clever developers like myself (I do totally rock
;) blend Flash, Flex, Silverlight and some other new emerging
technologies that in turn drive innovation away from all the current
RIA platforms to something far more advanced. This fits into my
demented belief that the web is doomed to failure and something better
is bound to replace it before it ends up killing us all.

I can't say right now that I am totally excited about Silverlight. I
would like to take a look at it and see what it can do.

Paul deCoursey

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Wolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Scott,
> 
> > Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read,
> but i think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil,
> watch them" mentality.
> 
> I assure you that undertone wasn't purposeful. I did flub the Sparkle
> reference, but then again, most people misunderstood what Sparkle was
> and the general understanding at large was the Sparkle was WPF/E. 
> Code words are supposed to be confusing right? :=)
> 
> As you said, aiming at that would have just undone the message I was
> trying to get out. 
> 
> Worth noting BTW, I am a MSFT Alumnus. 
> 
> -- 
> Dave Wolf
> Cynergy Systems, Inc.
> Adobe Flex Alliance Partner
> http://www.cynergysystems.com
> http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs
> 
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Office: 866-CYNERGY
> 
> 
> 
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Barnes" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dave.C,
> > 
> > Dave.W gets it :) He understands that the RIA space is not exclusive
> to one
> > company but many, while I get the undercurrent of his blog-speech,
I do
> > however disagree with the "dark evil plotting" - MIX isn't because MAX
> > exists, its actually because it's intent is to showcase a MIX of
> Microsoft
> > Technologies in the one spot, consolidated. Usually PDC / TechEd are
> > reserved for the 100% Microsoft pieces (except TechEd Australia were
> we are
> > hoping to mix-it-up a bit more).
> > 
> > Furthermore, we are looking to REMIX (Australia, Melbourne, June
25th -
> > 26th) in the rest of the world based off what the US version does
and so
> > on.. point I'm thinking folks at times amplify the paranoia around
> > Microsoft ;)
> > 
> > Secondly, Sparkle was the code-name for Expression Blend, and JOLT
> was the
> > code-name for Silverlight. I also get nervous when anyone uses the
term
> > "Missiles","Big Bang" and Microsoft. As when they do, i start to
> think of
> > Cult Followings and ponder if I've been duped into some mystic cult
> (I'll be
> > that guy running out in FBI handcuffs on Hard Copy saying "I didn't
> know..I
> > didn't know..")
> > 
> > Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read,
> but i
> > think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil,
> watch them"
> > mentality.
> > 
> > I'm evil, Microsoft isn't though (just to clarify that).
> > 
> > On 4/20/07, Dave Carabetta  wrote:
> > >
> > > I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill
for my
> > > employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice
> President of
> > > Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why
> > > Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA
> industry and
> > > why it's not just some "copycat Flash" competitor. If you're
> looking for a
> > > balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog
> entry:
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

On 4/20/07, Michael Schmalle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  I have to put my 2 cents down for prosperity sake.



which is important :)

  All you people that live in cities and constantly sicken yourselves by

your own pollution, need to live on a mountain for a couple years, look back
at what you say and see how hilarious it all is.



I live near a desert? does that' coun't for isolation and freedom of
thoughts? (Sorry in Australia, our mountains are hard to come by at times).




  How many times can the battle of north and south be fought and... won?
:)



Until East & West figure out it's time to join in, and then we go on
Springer... i got dibs on the chair throwing...



  Listening to people engrossed in the politics of banter on the internet

is much more funny than turning on the TV these days.



They still have TV? you mean YouTube + TV can co-exist? next thing you'll
say Silverlight and Flash can co-exist.. pft crazy talk.



  Scott, your just a person that likes getting people talking regardless of

the side your on. Your good at it to.



Oh stop, you say that to all the Evangelists.. now you're making me blush
*blush in ascii art*.



  As far as Microsoft's world domination, I doubt it. No one ever 'wins'

forever. I think most of the resistance you feel around your posts is
exactly what Dave Wolf said... now theres options, people want choice. I
guess that is what the market and developers 'against' Microsoft have been
saying forever... WE WANT CHOICE!



Watch what you wish for, you just may get it...



  I think that is what being human is all about.


Peace, Mike



If I didn't have leg cramps right about now, i'd stand and applaud you :)
(Seriously - Politics is bound to happen when you have to large corporations
saying to all of you - try my stuff, no try mine, nooo try mine... and so
on.. Adobe & Microsoft compete on a number of levels while at the same time
- this will freak the kids out in the front row - without Microsoft, Adobe
couldn't of gotten to where it is today. Without Microsoft Flash's
penetration numbers wouldn't be where they are/were today (but its ok, no
thanks required for the Updates / Default installs we put on the box when we
ship etc). I should also mention sites like Honda, MySpace, YouTube and
Movie Sites etc were also strong drivers in this space more so then us. Yet
if i say this outloud then we could sober up a bit and no1 likes a buzz
killer ;)

Point: Lighten up folks, it's just technology - or should I say Silverlight,
Light up the web! :)




--
Regards,

Scott Barnes
Developer Evangelist
Microsoft - whom wrote this with GMAIL.. shhh, don't tell HQ or they'll dock
my pay ...as Hotmail and GMAIl cannot co-exist at all! it's in the rules
alongside Silverlight and Flash :)

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

On 4/20/07, Dave Wolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Scott,

> Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read,
but i think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil,
watch them" mentality.

I assure you that undertone wasn't purposeful. I did flub the Sparkle
reference, but then again, most people misunderstood what Sparkle was
and the general understanding at large was the Sparkle was WPF/E.
Code words are supposed to be confusing right? :=)



Fair call :) I'll take you at your word  on this one - but don't let that
get out or people will think i'm soft, as in micro-soft :) I agree there was
confusion and so i retract my point...



  As you said, aiming at that would have just undone the message I was

trying to get out.

Worth noting BTW, I am a MSFT Alumnus.



Yeah, seems like a lof of MSFT folks floating about, even some folks behind
Macromedia are now floating in MSFT? :)  You know what would look good for
Cynergy Systems .. "Adobe Flex Alliance Partner & Microsoft Alliance
Partner" - now that would be worthy of an MSFT Alumnus ;) hehe.



  --

Dave Wolf
Cynergy Systems, Inc.
Adobe Flex Alliance Partner
http://www.cynergysystems.com
http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs

Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Office: 866-CYNERGY

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Scott
Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Dave.C,
>
> Dave.W gets it :) He understands that the RIA space is not exclusive
to one
> company but many, while I get the undercurrent of his blog-speech, I do
> however disagree with the "dark evil plotting" - MIX isn't because MAX
> exists, its actually because it's intent is to showcase a MIX of
Microsoft
> Technologies in the one spot, consolidated. Usually PDC / TechEd are
> reserved for the 100% Microsoft pieces (except TechEd Australia were
we are
> hoping to mix-it-up a bit more).
>
> Furthermore, we are looking to REMIX (Australia, Melbourne, June 25th -
> 26th) in the rest of the world based off what the US version does and so
> on.. point I'm thinking folks at times amplify the paranoia around
> Microsoft ;)
>
> Secondly, Sparkle was the code-name for Expression Blend, and JOLT
was the
> code-name for Silverlight. I also get nervous when anyone uses the term
> "Missiles","Big Bang" and Microsoft. As when they do, i start to
think of
> Cult Followings and ponder if I've been duped into some mystic cult
(I'll be
> that guy running out in FBI handcuffs on Hard Copy saying "I didn't
know..I
> didn't know..")
>
> Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read,
but i
> think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil,
watch them"
> mentality.
>
> I'm evil, Microsoft isn't though (just to clarify that).
>
> On 4/20/07, Dave Carabetta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill for my
> > employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice
President of
> > Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why
> > Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA
industry and
> > why it's not just some "copycat Flash" competitor. If you're
looking for a
> > balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog
entry:
> >
> >
> >

http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_the
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave Carabetta.
> > Cynergy Systems, Inc.
> >
> > On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET
remoting
> > > was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and
whether its back
> > > but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head
screwed on right
> > > and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex
Builder
> > > integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew
Shorten & I
> > > drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG)
> > >
> > > That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't
meant to
> > > be)
> > >
> > >
> > > On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the
> > > > release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP
ready.
> > > > That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it
since it's
> > > > 1.5 version.
> > > >
> > > > But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET
Framework 2.0
> > > > and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining
> > > > exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that
> > > > would like to have a server framework developed directly from
Adobe.
> > > >
> > > > Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and
consistent
> > > > server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive
> > > > focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET
> > > > developers.
> > > >
> > > > Communications Foundations is really good and it will be
better very
> > > > soon. And

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Weyert de Boer]

Always fun with Microsoft it's your competitor and your friend at the 
same time. I mean sometimes you cant without Microsoft when developing 
for the Windows platform.

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Paul DeCoursey]

I agree that there is room in the RIA space for another player.  I
think that MS has a few things going against it for this launch. 
First off it's a new plugin with little real world experience. It is
going to take a long time for the market to become saturated enough
for it to be relevant. It took many years for the Flash Player to gain
acceptance, and it's still not a total success (read any posting on
slashdot that is related to Flash to see what I mean). Throw on top of
that Microsofts reputation in Internet Security and you have a user
base that will be uneasy with the install.

I see this going one of two ways. Silverlight takes more than 2 years
to reach saturation, partially fueled by the reluctance of the
population to upgrade to Vista. This causes developers to choose other
options which in turn drive the next big web trend beyond RIA.  Or
Sliverlight is a moderate success and everyone is happy.

Or (sorry, I just thought of this so it's actually 3 ways) Silverlight
is a big success and clever developers like myself (I do totally rock
;) blend Flash, Flex, Silverlight and some other new emerging
technologies that in turn drive innovation away from all the current
RIA platforms to something far more advanced.  This fits into my
demented belief that the web is doomed to failure and something better
is bound to replace it before it ends up killing us all.

I can't say right now that I am totally excited about Silverlight. I
would like to take a look at it and see what it can do.

Paul deCoursey



--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Wolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Scott,
> 
> > Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read,
> but i think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil,
> watch them" mentality.
>  
> I assure you that undertone wasn't purposeful.  I did flub the Sparkle
> reference, but then again, most people misunderstood what Sparkle was
> and the general understanding at large was the Sparkle was WPF/E. 
> Code words are supposed to be confusing right? :=)
> 
> As you said, aiming at that would have just undone the message I was
> trying to get out.  
> 
> Worth noting BTW, I am a MSFT Alumnus. 
> 
> -- 
> Dave Wolf
> Cynergy Systems, Inc.
> Adobe Flex Alliance Partner
> http://www.cynergysystems.com
> http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs
> 
> Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Office: 866-CYNERGY
> 
> 
> 
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Barnes" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dave.C,
> > 
> > Dave.W gets it :) He understands that the RIA space is not exclusive
> to one
> > company but many, while I get the undercurrent of his blog-speech,
I do
> > however disagree with the "dark evil plotting" - MIX isn't because MAX
> > exists, its actually because it's intent is to showcase a MIX of
> Microsoft
> > Technologies in the one spot, consolidated. Usually PDC / TechEd are
> > reserved for the 100% Microsoft pieces (except TechEd Australia were
> we are
> > hoping to mix-it-up a bit more).
> > 
> > Furthermore, we are looking to REMIX (Australia, Melbourne, June
25th -
> > 26th) in the rest of the world based off what the US version does
and so
> > on.. point I'm thinking folks at times amplify the paranoia around
> > Microsoft ;)
> > 
> > Secondly, Sparkle was the code-name for Expression Blend, and JOLT
> was the
> > code-name for Silverlight. I also get nervous when anyone uses the
term
> > "Missiles","Big Bang" and Microsoft. As when they do, i start to
> think of
> > Cult Followings and ponder if I've been duped into some mystic cult
> (I'll be
> > that guy running out in FBI handcuffs on Hard Copy saying "I didn't
> know..I
> > didn't know..")
> > 
> > Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read,
> but i
> > think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil,
> watch them"
> > mentality.
> > 
> > I'm evil, Microsoft isn't though (just to clarify that).
> > 
> > On 4/20/07, Dave Carabetta  wrote:
> > >
> > >   I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill
for my
> > > employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice
> President of
> > > Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why
> > > Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA
> industry and
> > > why it's not just some "copycat Flash" competitor. If you're
> looking for a
> > > balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog
> entry:
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_the
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Dave Carabetta.
> > > Cynergy Systems, Inc.
> > >
> > > On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET
> remoting
> > > > was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and
> whether its back
> > > > but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head
> screwed on right
> > > > and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex
> 

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[iko_knyphausen]

I agree it was a fun read, and I think Dave you got it right. It's a
confirmation of the market and everyone it will benefit. Plus a little
competition keeps everyone on their toes ;-)


--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Wolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Scott,
>
> > Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read,
> but i think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil,
> watch them" mentality.
>
> I assure you that undertone wasn't purposeful. I did flub the Sparkle
> reference, but then again, most people misunderstood what Sparkle was
> and the general understanding at large was the Sparkle was WPF/E.
> Code words are supposed to be confusing right? :=)
>
> As you said, aiming at that would have just undone the message I was
> trying to get out.
>
> Worth noting BTW, I am a MSFT Alumnus.
>
> --
> Dave Wolf
> Cynergy Systems, Inc.
> Adobe Flex Alliance Partner
> http://www.cynergysystems.com
> http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs
>
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Office: 866-CYNERGY
>
>
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Barnes" scott.barnes@
> wrote:
> >
> > Dave.C,
> >
> > Dave.W gets it :) He understands that the RIA space is not exclusive
> to one
> > company but many, while I get the undercurrent of his blog-speech, I
do
> > however disagree with the "dark evil plotting" - MIX isn't because
MAX
> > exists, its actually because it's intent is to showcase a MIX of
> Microsoft
> > Technologies in the one spot, consolidated. Usually PDC / TechEd are
> > reserved for the 100% Microsoft pieces (except TechEd Australia were
> we are
> > hoping to mix-it-up a bit more).
> >
> > Furthermore, we are looking to REMIX (Australia, Melbourne, June
25th -
> > 26th) in the rest of the world based off what the US version does
and so
> > on.. point I'm thinking folks at times amplify the paranoia around
> > Microsoft ;)
> >
> > Secondly, Sparkle was the code-name for Expression Blend, and JOLT
> was the
> > code-name for Silverlight. I also get nervous when anyone uses the
term
> > "Missiles","Big Bang" and Microsoft. As when they do, i start to
> think of
> > Cult Followings and ponder if I've been duped into some mystic cult
> (I'll be
> > that guy running out in FBI handcuffs on Hard Copy saying "I didn't
> know..I
> > didn't know..")
> >
> > Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read,
> but i
> > think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil,
> watch them"
> > mentality.
> >
> > I'm evil, Microsoft isn't though (just to clarify that).
> >
> > On 4/20/07, Dave Carabetta dcarabetta@ wrote:
> > >
> > > I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill for
my
> > > employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice
> President of
> > > Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to
why
> > > Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA
> industry and
> > > why it's not just some "copycat Flash" competitor. If you're
> looking for a
> > > balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog
> entry:
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_\
the
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Dave Carabetta.
> > > Cynergy Systems, Inc.
> > >
> > > On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes scott.barnes@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET
> remoting
> > > > was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and
> whether its back
> > > > but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head
> screwed on right
> > > > and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex
> Builder
> > > > integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew
> Shorten & I
> > > > drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG)
> > > >
> > > > That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't
> meant to
> > > > be)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa mvbaffa@ > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before
the
> > > > > release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP
> ready.
> > > > > That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it
> since it's
> > > > > 1.5 version.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET
> Framework 2.0
> > > > > and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is
maintaining
> > > > > exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers
that
> > > > > would like to have a server framework developed directly from
> Adobe.
> > > > >
> > > > > Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and
> consistent
> > > > > server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its
exclusive
> > > > > focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET
> > > > > developers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Communications Foundations is really good and it will be
> better very
> > > > > soon. And it's price is very good, it is free !
> > > > >

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Michael Schmalle]

I have to put my 2 cents down for prosperity sake.

All you people that live in cities and constantly sicken yourselves by your
own pollution, need to live on a mountain for a couple years, look back at
what you say and see how hilarious it all is.

How many times can the battle of north and south be fought and... won? :)

Listening to people engrossed in the politics of banter on the internet is
much more funny than turning on the TV these days.

Scott, your just a person that likes getting people talking regardless of
the side your on. Your good at it to.

As far as Microsoft's world domination, I doubt it. No one ever 'wins'
forever. I think most of the resistance you feel around your posts is
exactly what Dave Wolf said... now theres options, people want choice. I
guess that is what the market and developers 'against' Microsoft have been
saying forever... WE WANT CHOICE!

I think that is what being human is all about.

Peace, Mike

On 4/19/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Dave.C,

Dave.W gets it :) He understands that the RIA space is not exclusive to
one company but many, while I get the undercurrent of his blog-speech, I do
however disagree with the "dark evil plotting" - MIX isn't because MAX
exists, its actually because it's intent is to showcase a MIX of Microsoft
Technologies in the one spot, consolidated. Usually PDC / TechEd are
reserved for the 100% Microsoft pieces (except TechEd Australia were we are
hoping to mix-it-up a bit more).

Furthermore, we are looking to REMIX (Australia, Melbourne, June 25th -
26th) in the rest of the world based off what the US version does and so
on.. point I'm thinking folks at times amplify the paranoia around
Microsoft ;)

Secondly, Sparkle was the code-name for Expression Blend, and JOLT was the
code-name for Silverlight. I also get nervous when anyone uses the term
"Missiles","Big Bang" and Microsoft. As when they do, i start to think of
Cult Followings and ponder if I've been duped into some mystic cult (I'll be
that guy running out in FBI handcuffs on Hard Copy saying "I didn't know..I
didn't know..")

Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read, but i
think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil, watch them"
mentality.

I'm evil, Microsoft isn't though (just to clarify that).

On 4/20/07, Dave Carabetta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill for my
> employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice President of
> Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why
> Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA industry and
> why it's not just some "copycat Flash" competitor. If you're looking for a
> balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog entry:
>
> http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_the
>
>
> Regards,
> Dave Carabetta.
> Cynergy Systems, Inc.
>
>
> On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> >
> >Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET
> > remoting was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and whether
> > its back but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head screwed
> > on right and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex
> > Builder integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew
> > Shorten & I drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG)
> >
> > That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't meant
> > to be)
> >
> >
> >  On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> > >
> > >   I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the
> > > release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP ready.
> > >
> > > That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it since
> > > it's
> > > 1.5 version.
> > >
> > > But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET Framework
> > > 2.0
> > > and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining
> > > exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that
> > > would like to have a server framework developed directly from Adobe.
> > >
> > > Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and consistent
> > > server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive
> > > focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET
> > > developers.
> > >
> > > Communications Foundations is really good and it will be better very
> > >
> > > soon. And it's price is very good, it is free !
> > >
> > > I am still working on the Microsoft framework. But I beleive that
> > > WPF
> > > and SilverLight can be very soon a real competitive alternative.
> > >
> > > Marcus Baffa
> > > NOVA Consulting
> > >
> > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> > > "Peter Demling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Version 1 of Microsoft products have historically been slow,
> > > > unapologizing in their 

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Dave Wolf]

Scott,

> Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read,
but i think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil,
watch them" mentality.
 
I assure you that undertone wasn't purposeful.  I did flub the Sparkle
reference, but then again, most people misunderstood what Sparkle was
and the general understanding at large was the Sparkle was WPF/E. 
Code words are supposed to be confusing right? :=)

As you said, aiming at that would have just undone the message I was
trying to get out.  

Worth noting BTW, I am a MSFT Alumnus. 

-- 
Dave Wolf
Cynergy Systems, Inc.
Adobe Flex Alliance Partner
http://www.cynergysystems.com
http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs

Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Office: 866-CYNERGY



--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Dave.C,
> 
> Dave.W gets it :) He understands that the RIA space is not exclusive
to one
> company but many, while I get the undercurrent of his blog-speech, I do
> however disagree with the "dark evil plotting" - MIX isn't because MAX
> exists, its actually because it's intent is to showcase a MIX of
Microsoft
> Technologies in the one spot, consolidated. Usually PDC / TechEd are
> reserved for the 100% Microsoft pieces (except TechEd Australia were
we are
> hoping to mix-it-up a bit more).
> 
> Furthermore, we are looking to REMIX (Australia, Melbourne, June 25th -
> 26th) in the rest of the world based off what the US version does and so
> on.. point I'm thinking folks at times amplify the paranoia around
> Microsoft ;)
> 
> Secondly, Sparkle was the code-name for Expression Blend, and JOLT
was the
> code-name for Silverlight. I also get nervous when anyone uses the term
> "Missiles","Big Bang" and Microsoft. As when they do, i start to
think of
> Cult Followings and ponder if I've been duped into some mystic cult
(I'll be
> that guy running out in FBI handcuffs on Hard Copy saying "I didn't
know..I
> didn't know..")
> 
> Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read,
but i
> think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil,
watch them"
> mentality.
> 
> I'm evil, Microsoft isn't though (just to clarify that).
> 
> On 4/20/07, Dave Carabetta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >   I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill for my
> > employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice
President of
> > Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why
> > Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA
industry and
> > why it's not just some "copycat Flash" competitor. If you're
looking for a
> > balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog
entry:
> >
> >
> >
http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_the
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave Carabetta.
> > Cynergy Systems, Inc.
> >
> > On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET
remoting
> > > was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and
whether its back
> > > but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head
screwed on right
> > > and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex
Builder
> > > integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew
Shorten & I
> > > drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG)
> > >
> > > That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't
meant to
> > > be)
> > >
> > >
> > >  On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >   I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the
> > > > release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP
ready.
> > > > That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it
since it's
> > > > 1.5 version.
> > > >
> > > > But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET
Framework 2.0
> > > > and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining
> > > > exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that
> > > > would like to have a server framework developed directly from
Adobe.
> > > >
> > > > Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and
consistent
> > > > server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive
> > > > focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET
> > > > developers.
> > > >
> > > > Communications Foundations is really good and it will be
better very
> > > > soon. And it's price is very good, it is free !
> > > >
> > > > I am still working on the Microsoft framework. But I beleive
that WPF
> > > > and SilverLight can be very soon a real competitive alternative.
> > > >
> > > > Marcus Baffa
> > > > NOVA Consulting
> > > >
> > > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> > > > "Peter Demling" 
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Version 1 of Microsoft products have historically been slow,
> > > > > unapologizing in their copycat nature, and hampered by large
numbers
> > > > 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

Dave.C,

Dave.W gets it :) He understands that the RIA space is not exclusive to one
company but many, while I get the undercurrent of his blog-speech, I do
however disagree with the "dark evil plotting" - MIX isn't because MAX
exists, its actually because it's intent is to showcase a MIX of Microsoft
Technologies in the one spot, consolidated. Usually PDC / TechEd are
reserved for the 100% Microsoft pieces (except TechEd Australia were we are
hoping to mix-it-up a bit more).

Furthermore, we are looking to REMIX (Australia, Melbourne, June 25th -
26th) in the rest of the world based off what the US version does and so
on.. point I'm thinking folks at times amplify the paranoia around
Microsoft ;)

Secondly, Sparkle was the code-name for Expression Blend, and JOLT was the
code-name for Silverlight. I also get nervous when anyone uses the term
"Missiles","Big Bang" and Microsoft. As when they do, i start to think of
Cult Followings and ponder if I've been duped into some mystic cult (I'll be
that guy running out in FBI handcuffs on Hard Copy saying "I didn't know..I
didn't know..")

Sillyness aside, there is substance to this and it was a great read, but i
think what hurt it's purity is the undercurrent of "MS is evil, watch them"
mentality.

I'm evil, Microsoft isn't though (just to clarify that).

On 4/20/07, Dave Carabetta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill for my
employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice President of
Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why
Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA industry and
why it's not just some "copycat Flash" competitor. If you're looking for a
balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog entry:


http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_the

Regards,
Dave Carabetta.
Cynergy Systems, Inc.

On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET remoting
> was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and whether its back
> but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head screwed on right
> and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex Builder
> integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew Shorten & I
> drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG)
>
> That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't meant to
> be)
>
>
>  On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> >
> >   I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the
> > release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP ready.
> > That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it since it's
> > 1.5 version.
> >
> > But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET Framework 2.0
> > and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining
> > exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that
> > would like to have a server framework developed directly from Adobe.
> >
> > Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and consistent
> > server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive
> > focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET
> > developers.
> >
> > Communications Foundations is really good and it will be better very
> > soon. And it's price is very good, it is free !
> >
> > I am still working on the Microsoft framework. But I beleive that WPF
> > and SilverLight can be very soon a real competitive alternative.
> >
> > Marcus Baffa
> > NOVA Consulting
> >
> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> > "Peter Demling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Version 1 of Microsoft products have historically been slow,
> > > unapologizing in their copycat nature, and hampered by large numbers
> > > of major bugs and gaps in functionality.
> > >
> > > However, their astronomical cash reserves and relentless commitment
> > to
> > > establish market share has almost always led to vastly improved
> > > products in version 2 and beyond. So of course, Silverlight is no
> > > match for Flex - right now. But if Microsoft sustains its
> > commitment,
> > > it's not a question of *if* it could be "almost as good" as Flex -
> > > just a matter of when.
> > >
> > > I don't say this as a criticism of Microsoft (I use several of their
> >
> > > products daily and love them), but rather to point out that they are
> > > more of a market force than a true software company - and so the
> > > relative success of Silverlight (or any other MS offering) is
> > > pre-ordained, so long as they decide that's what they want to do -
> > > it's independent of the present quality of the actual product.
> > >
> > > -Peter Demling
> > > Lexington, MA
> > >
> > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> > "Scott Barnes" 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Claus,
> > > >
> > > > Yup, so that's why FLEX does have its uniqu

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Dave Carabetta]

I hope this isn't taken with as some sort of corporate shill for my
employer, as it's honestly not my intent, but Dave Wolf, Vice President of
Consulting at Cynergy Systems, gives an excellent summary as to why
Silverlight is a phenomenally important announcement to the RIA industry and
why it's not just some "copycat Flash" competitor. If you're looking for a
balanced view of Silverlight's effect, check out his latest blog entry:

http://www.cynergysystems.com/blogs/page/davewolf?entry=wake_up_and_see_the

Regards,
Dave Carabetta.
Cynergy Systems, Inc.

On 4/18/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET remoting
was dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and whether its back
but yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head screwed on right
and he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex Builder
integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew Shorten & I
drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG)

That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't meant to
be)


On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the
> release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP ready.
> That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it since it's
> 1.5 version.
>
> But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET Framework 2.0
> and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining
> exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that
> would like to have a server framework developed directly from Adobe.
>
> Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and consistent
> server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive
> focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET
> developers.
>
> Communications Foundations is really good and it will be better very
> soon. And it's price is very good, it is free !
>
> I am still working on the Microsoft framework. But I beleive that WPF
> and SilverLight can be very soon a real competitive alternative.
>
> Marcus Baffa
> NOVA Consulting
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Peter
> Demling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> wrote:
> >
> > Version 1 of Microsoft products have historically been slow,
> > unapologizing in their copycat nature, and hampered by large numbers
> > of major bugs and gaps in functionality.
> >
> > However, their astronomical cash reserves and relentless commitment
> to
> > establish market share has almost always led to vastly improved
> > products in version 2 and beyond. So of course, Silverlight is no
> > match for Flex - right now. But if Microsoft sustains its
> commitment,
> > it's not a question of *if* it could be "almost as good" as Flex -
> > just a matter of when.
> >
> > I don't say this as a criticism of Microsoft (I use several of their
> > products daily and love them), but rather to point out that they are
> > more of a market force than a true software company - and so the
> > relative success of Silverlight (or any other MS offering) is
> > pre-ordained, so long as they decide that's what they want to do -
> > it's independent of the present quality of the actual product.
> >
> > -Peter Demling
> > Lexington, MA
> >
> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> "Scott Barnes" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Claus,
> > >
> > > Yup, so that's why FLEX does have its unique offering vs
> SilverLight and
> > > once developers & designers unsubscribe from the notion it's
> a "Flash
> > > Killer" and do more of what you are doing (exploring it's upcoming
> > release)
> > > you'll decide on what you think it's merits are vs aren't. It's
> > early days
> > > yet, so wouldn't worry to much about it folks ;) just keep an
> open mind
> > > should you want to take it for a test-run post MIX07 :)
> > >
> > > WPF & SilverLight are going to have interesting prospects just
> like
> > Apollo
> > > and FLEX will have it's own, I think the two will do different
> > things for
> > > different people. Keep fingers in all barrels I'd say :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 17 Apr 2007 03:30:22 -0700, Claus Wahlers  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > If you read FUD crap, ignore it on both sides and just be
> opened
> > to the
> > > > > idea that theres yet another channel of delivery in rich
> interactive
> > > > > applications.
> > > >
> > > > Reading through the Silverlight docs, XAML looks to me like
> some weird
> > > > kind of microsoftified SVG, spiced up with MP3 and WM codecs.
> I'm
> > still
> > > > searching but so far i couldn't find anything close to what Flex
> > offers
> > > > (what i found are some barely working and butt ugly component
> > > > experiments). I'd guess that Silverlight will get some video
> market
> > > > share, but it has a long way to go to enter the RIA market. My 2
> > centavos.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Claus.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > claus wahlers
> > 

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

Its an annoyance of mine aswell. I'm confused as to why .NET remoting was
dropped from Flash/Flex (haven't yet seen FLASH CS3 and whether its back but
yeah, no idea and all i can say is Mark's got his head screwed on right and
he can help with WebORB in that regard. Actually the Flex Builder
integration is quite stunning I must say, it left both Andrew Shorten & I
drooling @ Feb Seattle Flex UG)

That so sounded like a plug didn't it :) hehe. (Sorry it wasn't meant to be)


On 18 Apr 2007 07:38:08 -0700, mvbaffa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the
release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP ready.
That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it since it's
1.5 version.

But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET Framework 2.0
and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining
exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that
would like to have a server framework developed directly from Adobe.

Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and consistent
server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive
focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET
developers.

Communications Foundations is really good and it will be better very
soon. And it's price is very good, it is free !

I am still working on the Microsoft framework. But I beleive that WPF
and SilverLight can be very soon a real competitive alternative.

Marcus Baffa
NOVA Consulting

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Peter
Demling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Version 1 of Microsoft products have historically been slow,
> unapologizing in their copycat nature, and hampered by large numbers
> of major bugs and gaps in functionality.
>
> However, their astronomical cash reserves and relentless commitment
to
> establish market share has almost always led to vastly improved
> products in version 2 and beyond. So of course, Silverlight is no
> match for Flex - right now. But if Microsoft sustains its
commitment,
> it's not a question of *if* it could be "almost as good" as Flex -
> just a matter of when.
>
> I don't say this as a criticism of Microsoft (I use several of their
> products daily and love them), but rather to point out that they are
> more of a market force than a true software company - and so the
> relative success of Silverlight (or any other MS offering) is
> pre-ordained, so long as they decide that's what they want to do -
> it's independent of the present quality of the actual product.
>
> -Peter Demling
> Lexington, MA
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , "Scott
Barnes" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Claus,
> >
> > Yup, so that's why FLEX does have its unique offering vs
SilverLight and
> > once developers & designers unsubscribe from the notion it's
a "Flash
> > Killer" and do more of what you are doing (exploring it's upcoming
> release)
> > you'll decide on what you think it's merits are vs aren't. It's
> early days
> > yet, so wouldn't worry to much about it folks ;) just keep an
open mind
> > should you want to take it for a test-run post MIX07 :)
> >
> > WPF & SilverLight are going to have interesting prospects just
like
> Apollo
> > and FLEX will have it's own, I think the two will do different
> things for
> > different people. Keep fingers in all barrels I'd say :)
> >
> >
> >
> > On 17 Apr 2007 03:30:22 -0700, Claus Wahlers  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > If you read FUD crap, ignore it on both sides and just be
opened
> to the
> > > > idea that theres yet another channel of delivery in rich
interactive
> > > > applications.
> > >
> > > Reading through the Silverlight docs, XAML looks to me like
some weird
> > > kind of microsoftified SVG, spiced up with MP3 and WM codecs.
I'm
> still
> > > searching but so far i couldn't find anything close to what Flex
> offers
> > > (what i found are some barely working and butt ugly component
> > > experiments). I'd guess that Silverlight will get some video
market
> > > share, but it has a long way to go to enter the RIA market. My 2
> centavos.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Claus.
> > >
> > > --
> > > claus wahlers
> > > côdeazur brasil
> > > http://codeazur.com.br/
> > > http://wahlers.com.br/claus/blog/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Scott Barnes
> > http://www.mossyblog.com
> >
>

 





--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Shaun]

Ralph,  The 1-4 were in regards to WPF vs Apollow, not WPF/E vs 
Flash.  WPF does not use javascript, is definitely faster (is 
basically a standard winforms app), and by design doesn't need to be 
cross-platform.  That is why it is a strong choice over Apollo if you 
know your customer base will be 100% windows (common for 
intranet/backoffice apps).

When you don't know that everyone will be running Windows...Apollo to 
the rescue.

Shaun

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Hauwert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> ) Ability to leverage .NET developer pool
> -Who will have to do JS scripting
> 2) Performance (I'm guessing WPF will be faster due to the CLR)
> CLR extends to the XAML implementation. What speed are you 
referring too?
> Render speed?
> 3) Vastly (sorry, Adobe) superior IDE/developer tools (at least at
> this point - I'm hoping FB3 really steps it up)
> Which only run on Windows. Nice way to get the design community in.
> 4) Cross-platform is not important if you know all of your users 
will
> be running Windows
> WPF/e is crossplatform to the extent of PC/MAC + IE6 + Firefox 1.5+ 
Safari
> or another mozilla based project.
> 
> Ralph.
> 
> 
> 
> On 17 Apr 2007 11:26:13 -0700, Shaun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >   I would have to believe that WPF will win over Apollo for
> > backoffice/intranet software for the following reasons:
> >
> > 1) Ability to leverage .NET developer pool
> > 2) Performance (I'm guessing WPF will be faster due to the CLR)
> > 3) Vastly (sorry, Adobe) superior IDE/developer tools (at least at
> > this point - I'm hoping FB3 really steps it up)
> > 4) Cross-platform is not important if you know all of your users 
will
> > be running Windows
> >
> > As far as public internet sites go, I can't fathom why anyone 
would
> > go for Silverlight over Flash/Flex. It's unproven, has 0 market
> > share, is not truly cross-platform, and on and on...
> >
> > Shaun
> >
> > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
> > "softwarecat" 
> >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > If you go and see the sample of the technology on the 
Silverlight
> > > website, it is not as smooth and elegent as the ones Ely has
> > created.
> > > I think it will have it's audience, but IMHO I think the 
movement
> > of
> > > the community and the designer involvement is going to make Flex
> > the
> > > king. I agree, marketing and brute force are a challenge to Flex
> > only
> > > by company name and reputation with the masses.
> > >
> > > Still clumsy, but I honestly have not worked within WPF to know,
> > only
> > > seen some results. My 2 Cents!
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , Paul J
> > DeCoursey  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > All I have to say is it's Microsoft, if they kill anything 
it's
> > not
> > > on
> > > > the merits of their product... it's brute force. This is not a
> > > threat
> > > > to Flash/Flex by any means. Microsoft will never be able to
> > create a
> > > > truly cross platform product. All of their past efforts have
> > been
> > > > clumsy at best, even on their own platform.
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ralph Hauwert
>

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Mark Piller]

>> Also at least in .NET the Fluorine gateway supports calling 
>> existing web services via AMF remoting so you get to use your 
>> existing code but the transport is actually AMF and not SOAP.

Not to steer this discussion into a different route, but the same
functionality (invoking web services via AMF) has been in WebORB since
version 1.0

Cheers,
Mark


--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Samuel R. Neff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> 
> The problem with .NET and Flex is Adobe's stance that FDS is needed
to build
> "enterprise-class" applications and that Remoting only works with
FDS, both
> of which are flat out wrong.  
> 
> If Adobe isn't willing to make a .NET version of FDS then they should
> embrace the many options available to non-Java developers to use
> Remoting--Fluorine, WebORB, AMFPHP, etc. Even if they do make FDS
available
> for other platforms, it would be wrong for them to use their
position as the
> creator of Flash/Flex to attempt to squash alternatives to FDS through
> incorrect and misleading documentation.  
> 
> Also at least in .NET the Fluorine gateway supports calling existing web
> services via AMF remoting so you get to use your existing code but the
> transport is actually AMF and not SOAP.
> 
> Sam
> 
> ---
> We're Hiring! Seeking a passionate developer to join our team
building Flex
> based products. Position is in the Washington D.C. metro area. If
interested
> contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Weyert de Boer
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:33 PM
> To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player
Kill our
> beloved Flex ?
> 
> Yes, but web services aren't really meant for exchanging large sets of 
> data anyways. Well, that's what I learned school about it ;)
> 
> Indeed binary formats such as FDS/Remoting are fasters, but not 
> something to use when you got legacy things or existing web services.
> 
> At Yahoo we also XML over HTTP for exchanging the latest
music/artist news.
> 
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Weyert de Boer
>

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[mvbaffa]

I've been working with Flex since its alpha version. Before the 
release version was avaiable I had an application with AMFPHP ready. 
That is I really love Flex and i have been working with it since it's 
1.5 version.

But I am a .NET developer, I have a huge legacy in .NET Framework 2.0 
and 1.1. I don't know why Adobe, up to this moment, is maintaining 
exclusive focus on Java. There are a lot of .NET developers that 
would like to have a server framework developed directly from Adobe.

Applications are not only Client, they need a strong and consistent 
server Framework. I beleive that if Adobe maintains its exclusive 
focus on java it will loose, very soon a good number of .NET 
developers. 

Communications Foundations is really good and it will be better very 
soon. And it's price is very good, it is free !

I am still working on the Microsoft framework. But I beleive that WPF 
and SilverLight can be very soon a real competitive alternative.

Marcus Baffa
NOVA Consulting

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Demling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Version 1 of Microsoft products have historically been slow,
> unapologizing in their copycat nature, and hampered by large numbers
> of major bugs and gaps in functionality.
> 
> However, their astronomical cash reserves and relentless commitment 
to
> establish market share has almost always led to vastly improved
> products in version 2 and beyond.  So of course, Silverlight is no
> match for Flex - right now.  But if Microsoft sustains its 
commitment,
> it's not a question of *if* it could be "almost as good" as Flex -
> just a matter of when.
> 
> I don't say this as a criticism of Microsoft (I use several of their
> products daily and love them), but rather to point out that they are
> more of a market force than a true software company - and so the
> relative success of Silverlight (or any other MS offering) is
> pre-ordained, so long as they decide that's what they want to do -
> it's independent of the present quality of the actual product.
> 
> -Peter Demling
>  Lexington, MA
> 
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Barnes" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Claus,
> > 
> > Yup, so that's why FLEX does have its unique offering vs 
SilverLight and
> > once developers & designers unsubscribe from the notion it's 
a "Flash
> > Killer" and do more of what you are doing (exploring it's upcoming
> release)
> > you'll decide on what you think it's merits are vs aren't. It's
> early days
> > yet, so wouldn't worry to much about it folks ;) just keep an 
open mind
> > should you want to take it for a test-run post MIX07 :)
> > 
> > WPF & SilverLight are going to have interesting prospects just 
like
> Apollo
> > and FLEX will have it's own, I think the two will do different
> things for
> > different people. Keep fingers in all barrels I'd say :)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 17 Apr 2007 03:30:22 -0700, Claus Wahlers  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > If you read FUD crap, ignore it on both sides and just be 
opened
> to the
> > > > idea that theres yet another channel of delivery in rich 
interactive
> > > > applications.
> > >
> > > Reading through the Silverlight docs, XAML looks to me like 
some weird
> > > kind of microsoftified SVG, spiced up with MP3 and WM codecs. 
I'm
> still
> > > searching but so far i couldn't find anything close to what Flex
> offers
> > > (what i found are some barely working and butt ugly component
> > > experiments). I'd guess that Silverlight will get some video 
market
> > > share, but it has a long way to go to enter the RIA market. My 2
> centavos.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Claus.
> > >
> > > --
> > > claus wahlers
> > > côdeazur brasil
> > > http://codeazur.com.br/
> > > http://wahlers.com.br/claus/blog/
> > > 
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Regards,
> > Scott Barnes
> > http://www.mossyblog.com
> >
>

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[justme1231331]

I think MS's app is going to be as bloated and as convoluted to use as 
all of there other development platforms. I started out using CF 
because it was simple to catch on to, as compared to ASP. I tried VB 
and other programing languages but they are all bloated when compared 
to CF. Flex just needs some polishing and it WILL be an incredible 
platform.

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Ralph Hauwert]

) Ability to leverage .NET developer pool
-Who will have to do JS scripting
2) Performance (I'm guessing WPF will be faster due to the CLR)
CLR extends to the XAML implementation. What speed are you referring too?
Render speed?
3) Vastly (sorry, Adobe) superior IDE/developer tools (at least at
this point - I'm hoping FB3 really steps it up)
Which only run on Windows. Nice way to get the design community in.
4) Cross-platform is not important if you know all of your users will
be running Windows
WPF/e is crossplatform to the extent of PC/MAC + IE6 + Firefox 1.5+ Safari
or another mozilla based project.

Ralph.



On 17 Apr 2007 11:26:13 -0700, Shaun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  I would have to believe that WPF will win over Apollo for
backoffice/intranet software for the following reasons:

1) Ability to leverage .NET developer pool
2) Performance (I'm guessing WPF will be faster due to the CLR)
3) Vastly (sorry, Adobe) superior IDE/developer tools (at least at
this point - I'm hoping FB3 really steps it up)
4) Cross-platform is not important if you know all of your users will
be running Windows

As far as public internet sites go, I can't fathom why anyone would
go for Silverlight over Flash/Flex. It's unproven, has 0 market
share, is not truly cross-platform, and on and on...

Shaun

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com ,
"softwarecat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

wrote:
>
> If you go and see the sample of the technology on the Silverlight
> website, it is not as smooth and elegent as the ones Ely has
created.
> I think it will have it's audience, but IMHO I think the movement
of
> the community and the designer involvement is going to make Flex
the
> king. I agree, marketing and brute force are a challenge to Flex
only
> by company name and reputation with the masses.
>
> Still clumsy, but I honestly have not worked within WPF to know,
only
> seen some results. My 2 Cents!
>
>
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com , Paul J
DeCoursey  wrote:
> >
> > All I have to say is it's Microsoft, if they kill anything it's
not
> on
> > the merits of their product... it's brute force. This is not a
> threat
> > to Flash/Flex by any means. Microsoft will never be able to
create a
> > truly cross platform product. All of their past efforts have
been
> > clumsy at best, even on their own platform.
> >
> > Paul
> >
>

 





--
Ralph Hauwert

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Shaun]

I would have to believe that WPF will win over Apollo for 
backoffice/intranet software for the following reasons:

1) Ability to leverage .NET developer pool
2) Performance (I'm guessing WPF will be faster due to the CLR)
3) Vastly (sorry, Adobe) superior IDE/developer tools (at least at 
this point - I'm hoping FB3 really steps it up)
4) Cross-platform is not important if you know all of your users will 
be running Windows

As far as public internet sites go, I can't fathom why anyone would 
go for Silverlight over Flash/Flex.  It's unproven, has 0 market 
share, is not truly cross-platform, and on and on...

Shaun

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarecat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> If you go and see the sample of the technology on the Silverlight 
> website, it is not as smooth and elegent as the ones Ely has 
created.  
> I think it will have it's audience, but IMHO I think the movement 
of 
> the community and the designer involvement is going to make Flex 
the 
> king.  I agree, marketing and brute force are a challenge to Flex 
only 
> by company name and reputation with the masses.  
> 
> Still clumsy, but I honestly have not worked within WPF to know, 
only 
> seen some results.  My 2 Cents!
> 
> 
> --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Paul J DeCoursey  wrote:
> >
> > All I have to say is it's Microsoft, if they kill anything it's 
not 
> on 
> > the merits of their product... it's brute force.  This is not a 
> threat 
> > to Flash/Flex by any means.  Microsoft will never be able to 
create a 
> > truly cross platform product.  All of their past efforts have 
been 
> > clumsy at best, even on their own platform.
> > 
> > Paul
> >
>

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[softwarecat]

If you go and see the sample of the technology on the Silverlight 
website, it is not as smooth and elegent as the ones Ely has created.  
I think it will have it's audience, but IMHO I think the movement of 
the community and the designer involvement is going to make Flex the 
king.  I agree, marketing and brute force are a challenge to Flex only 
by company name and reputation with the masses.  

Still clumsy, but I honestly have not worked within WPF to know, only 
seen some results.  My 2 Cents!


--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Paul J DeCoursey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> All I have to say is it's Microsoft, if they kill anything it's not 
on 
> the merits of their product... it's brute force.  This is not a 
threat 
> to Flash/Flex by any means.  Microsoft will never be able to create a 
> truly cross platform product.  All of their past efforts have been 
> clumsy at best, even on their own platform.
> 
> Paul
>

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Scott Barnes]

See there ya go ;) once you get past all this my muscles are bigger than
yours stuff and you get to the heart of it, it doesn't hurt to know how
SilverLight ticks though does it :)

Scott.



On 17 Apr 2007 06:29:35 -0700, driverdude <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:



*snarf* I'm trying to stop laughing!

Realistically, Silverlight may pick up some heavy video developers, but
Adobe is way far out there.

I love Microsoft tools for coding, but doesn't this look like an
opportunity to dis-include Linux and Solaris more than a real product?

I'll pay much more serious attention if they do a good job with .NET
integration. Flex + Coldfusion + SQL Server < Silverlight + SQL Server
with no middleware application server.

As long as Adobe keeps the Flash runtime under 1 MB, with decent
performance, and no plug-in CODEC searches (like QuickTime or WMP), I
think Flash wins.

Perhaps if Microsoft makes the tools free, that would shift the scales
in their direction, or announcing something Apollo-like or integrating
PDF viewing/generation/web browsing like Apollo.

I intend to be fluent in Silverlight technologies as well as
Flash/Flex/Apollo, in hopes that they do something really innovative,
but I just can't imagine the masses dropping Flash for a very green
product.

Let's see what the next few months hold...







--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

Re: [flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Tom Chiverton]

On Tuesday 17 Apr 2007, driverdude wrote:
> I'll pay much more serious attention if they do a good job with .NET
> integration.  Flex + Coldfusion + SQL Server < Silverlight + SQL Server
> with no middleware application server.

.. except the one MS would have to bundle for free with SQL server ?
Can you say 'anti-trust' ?

> in their direction, or announcing something Apollo-like 

WPF is Apollo-like.

-- 
Tom Chiverton
Helping to globally reintermediate industry-wide m-commerce
on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com



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[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[driverdude]

*snarf*  I'm trying to stop laughing!

Realistically, Silverlight may pick up some heavy video developers, but
Adobe is way far out there.

I love Microsoft tools for coding, but doesn't this look like an
opportunity to dis-include Linux and Solaris more than a real product?

I'll pay much more serious attention if they do a good job with .NET
integration.  Flex + Coldfusion + SQL Server < Silverlight + SQL Server
with no middleware application server.

As long as Adobe keeps the Flash runtime under 1 MB, with decent
performance, and no plug-in CODEC searches (like QuickTime or WMP), I
think Flash wins.

Perhaps if Microsoft makes the tools free, that would shift the scales
in their direction, or announcing something Apollo-like or integrating
PDF viewing/generation/web browsing like Apollo.

I intend to be fluent in Silverlight technologies as well as
Flash/Flex/Apollo, in hopes that they do something really innovative,
but I just can't imagine the masses dropping Flash for a very green
product.

Let's see what the next few months hold...

[flexcoders] Re: Will Microsoft's new Silverlight Player Kill our beloved Flex ?

[Peter Demling]

Version 1 of Microsoft products have historically been slow,
unapologizing in their copycat nature, and hampered by large numbers
of major bugs and gaps in functionality.

However, their astronomical cash reserves and relentless commitment to
establish market share has almost always led to vastly improved
products in version 2 and beyond.  So of course, Silverlight is no
match for Flex - right now.  But if Microsoft sustains its commitment,
it's not a question of *if* it could be "almost as good" as Flex -
just a matter of when.

I don't say this as a criticism of Microsoft (I use several of their
products daily and love them), but rather to point out that they are
more of a market force than a true software company - and so the
relative success of Silverlight (or any other MS offering) is
pre-ordained, so long as they decide that's what they want to do -
it's independent of the present quality of the actual product.

-Peter Demling
 Lexington, MA

--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Claus,
> 
> Yup, so that's why FLEX does have its unique offering vs SilverLight and
> once developers & designers unsubscribe from the notion it's a "Flash
> Killer" and do more of what you are doing (exploring it's upcoming
release)
> you'll decide on what you think it's merits are vs aren't. It's
early days
> yet, so wouldn't worry to much about it folks ;) just keep an open mind
> should you want to take it for a test-run post MIX07 :)
> 
> WPF & SilverLight are going to have interesting prospects just like
Apollo
> and FLEX will have it's own, I think the two will do different
things for
> different people. Keep fingers in all barrels I'd say :)
> 
> 
> 
> On 17 Apr 2007 03:30:22 -0700, Claus Wahlers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > If you read FUD crap, ignore it on both sides and just be opened
to the
> > > idea that theres yet another channel of delivery in rich interactive
> > > applications.
> >
> > Reading through the Silverlight docs, XAML looks to me like some weird
> > kind of microsoftified SVG, spiced up with MP3 and WM codecs. I'm
still
> > searching but so far i couldn't find anything close to what Flex
offers
> > (what i found are some barely working and butt ugly component
> > experiments). I'd guess that Silverlight will get some video market
> > share, but it has a long way to go to enter the RIA market. My 2
centavos.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Claus.
> >
> > --
> > claus wahlers
> > côdeazur brasil
> > http://codeazur.com.br/
> > http://wahlers.com.br/claus/blog/
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Scott Barnes
> http://www.mossyblog.com
>