Re: [Flightgear-users] resolving sound problems
On January 25, 2005 05:11 pm, Erik Hofman wrote: In case anyone wonders, I've been working on a fix for it for one and a half day ... Erik lol... I was expecting to see the word weeks, months or even years until the very last word. =) Ampere ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] 3D Rendering Problem
On January 23, 2005 09:41 pm, Li-lun Wang wrote: Hi, My computer is a ThinkPad X31 with Pentium-M 1.4G CPU and ATI Radeon Mobility M6 LY. I manually tweaked the ports tree and installed FlightGear 0.9.8 on my FreeBSD 5.3-STABLE. Everything seemed to work except that the frame rate was only around 3 fps and the CPU usage was near 100%. It seemed to me that FlightGear was not using hardware acceleration. My X-Window system is X.Org 6.8.1. According to glxinfo, the log file of X server, and the system dmesg, DRI and drm are successfully loaded and should be working. The frame rate for glxgears is 225 fps with rather low CPU usage. I suspected that I did something wrong when I manually tweaked the ports. However, a friend using FlightGears 0.9.6 from the ports with exactly the same hardware could also achieve only 3 fps. What I was told is that slow framerate on ATI cards in Linux is a driver issue. About the only thing people like you and I can do is wait for a fix from the DRI developers. In order to see if this is a FreeBSD specific problem, I installed the 0.9.8 package for Windows. On Windows XP, I could achieve 27 fps; however, none of the 3D parts were showing. I could see the 3D models of the aircrafts when I choose the aircraft with the wizard. But in fgfs itself, I could not see anything 3D. I could not see any scenery out of the aircraft; nor could I see the 3D panel. I could only see the 2D panel; out of the aircraft, I could only see a blue scene in the day light and completely dark at night -- not even able to see the runway light. Sounds to me like you are missing the scenery for wherever you were at. Ampere ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Adding a red balloon to the flight gear environment
Geoffrey Frost wrote: I created a .dxf model of a red balloon using openfx software, and loaded it into flight gear according to David Megginson's Mini-HOWTO: 3D Aircraft Models in FlightGear. I followed the instructions listed below: The easiest way to load a new model is to set the property at startup with the --prop: command-line option; for example, to use a 3D aircraft model that you have installed in $FG_ROOT/Models/my-cessna.wrl, you could invoke FlightGear like this (under Unix-like systems): fgfs --prop:/sim/model/path=Models/red_balloon.dxf The balloon appears as it should, however I only get a black image of the balloon. I change the material settings in openfx to red, and the model renders in red, and appears in openfx designer as red. I export the model as a dxf file, but it appears in Flight Gear as black. Can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong. Thanks. I don't know the DXF file format well, but I don't think it can export material settings like ambient, diffuse end specular color. Is there any other format to which you can export the model (like .obj or.3ds)? Erik ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] resolving sound problems
Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: On January 25, 2005 05:11 pm, Erik Hofman wrote: In case anyone wonders, I've been working on a fix for it for one and a half day ... lol... I was expecting to see the word weeks, months or even years until the very last word. =) Hey, now you make me feel like I was lazy :-) Erik ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-users] Scenery Documentation (was: 3D Rendering Problem)
We get a lot of queries about installing scenery. I've put a page up on the wiki: http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/flight_gear/installing_scenery.html?wpid=16 8815 But could people check that that's correct? Giles Robertson ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] resolving sound problems
Other way round, actually, I believe it is very important and that just confirms you are a fast coder. On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:52:21 +0100, Erik Hofman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: On January 25, 2005 05:11 pm, Erik Hofman wrote: In case anyone wonders, I've been working on a fix for it for one and a half day ... lol... I was expecting to see the word weeks, months or even years until the very last word. =) Hey, now you make me feel like I was lazy :-) Erik ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d -- Daniel Duris [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Re: Flying Helicopters ?
Just try it with Wine. I suppose it might work. I have bought it about two years ago in no-name shop for five bucks I believe. On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:08:13 +0100, Vincent Trouilliez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can see the game here (there is download): Dan http://gr.bolt.com/download/pc/sim/search_and_rescue2.htm Ah, thanks ! The graphics do look much better :o) But it's for windows !! :o( SearcAndRescue was Linux, so I stupidely assumeed that SAR2 was for Linux too ! Can't use it then :o((( That's just yet another old Dos/Windows game that I can't play. I guess I will have to get my hands dirty, and finally try and get some windows emulator to run on my machine... Vince ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d -- Daniel Duris [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] 3D Rendering Problem
Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: My computer is a ThinkPad X31 with Pentium-M 1.4G CPU and ATI Radeon Mobility M6 LY. The frame rate for glxgears is 225 fps with rather low CPU usage. What I was told is that slow framerate on ATI cards in Linux is a driver issue. About the only thing people like you and I can do is wait for a fix from the DRI developers. My ATI 9100 IGP gets 2500 frames in 5 sec / 518 FPS. That's with the Linux Xorg drivers. A friend of mine who has an ATI Mobility M9 in his machine gets over 6000 frames in 5 sec (over 1200fps) using the Linux ATI proprietary drivers. The proprietary ATI driver, available from their website http://www.ati.com works for just about every recent ATI card. The only one it doesn't work for is (you guessed it) the 9100 IGP (there's a little note about it in the middle of the release notes docs). I suggest you go and get the ATI proprietary driver and install it. If you need help with that I'm happy to offer advice; send me an off-list message. Cheers, Josh -- Josh Norm Audette [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.gnurple.net ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Re: Flying Helicopters ?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:52:30 +0100, Vincent Trouilliez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FlightGear uses the most realistic flightmodel it can and as such the helicopter has to be finely controlled in 3-axes at all times to remain in the hover / slow flight (As in real-life) Dave Martin About the FDM for the Heli, I would not mind having the opinion of a real Heli pilot (hopefully there is one on this list ?). The only reference point I have, is a few weeks flying the Bell 206 in Microsoft flight simulator, and that was 5 years ago, but in Fligh Gear, I feel that two things are wrong. I'm not yet a real helicopter pilot, but i managed to optain a scolarship to be trained to ATPL (H) Level, teoretical and practical. Wright now i'm o teoretical part until 1'st of May when the fling part begins. I also advanced a project to my aviation academy to permit finance us (the helicopter clas) to build a heli sim based on FG (mybe will be aproved by JAA), i'm waiting an answer from them (but the big problem is absence of autorotation in FG :(. ). From may, i can compare FG with realthing and help you with improving FDM for heli... also, if the academy will accept my project i will have a group of flight instructors with a vast experience in many helicopter types, as betta testers and critics for our simultaor. In any case, you can count on my help soon. ps i will fly EC 120 155. this is my academy: http://www.aviationacademy.ro/english/index.htm IS ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Re: Flying Helicopters ?
Just try it with Wine. I suppose it might work. I have bought it about two years ago in no-name shop for five bucks I believe. I have never managed to get anything with Wine, but the 'notepad' ! :-/ I think I will think big, and try to set up WMware. Vince ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures?
Can I keep FG from going back into plib and fiddling with textures once the sim is up/initialized!? I'm using a custom texture that I created using OpenGL directly (instead of via plib) and I'm getting HOSED when FG decides to go load new textures (... or when it does whatever it does when it starts making calls to ssgLoadTextures, ssgMakeMipMaps, etc., after the sim is executing). AArrgh! Are there any reasons why plib wouldn't let me build/use my own textures? (... I posted a similar question on the plib-users list to see if I get any replies) Why does FG need to load anything once the sim is executing? Are textures not allocated/created by FG until they're needed? Can this 'load-it-as-you-go' behavior be replaced with a 'load-everything' approach? What are the consequences? Thanks, D ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-users] Re: Flying Helicopters ?
* Ioan Suciu -- Wednesday 26 January 2005 14:47: I also advanced a project to my aviation academy to permit finance us (the helicopter clas) to build a heli sim based on FG (mybe will be aproved by JAA), i'm waiting an answer from them (but the big problem is absence of autorotation in FG :(. ). I'm afraid that fgfs is not suitable for helicopter training yet. Autorotation isn't the only thing that's missing. Ground effect and a few other effects aren't implemented either. From may, i can compare FG with realthing and help you with improving FDM for heli... The FDM author knows pretty exactly what is missing[1]. He knows experienced real-world helicopter pilots, even bo105 pilots (one of which is AFAIK the head of all bo105 helicopters issues of the German army). What is missing now isn't so much good advice, but someone who knows enough physics and mathematics to implement it! (The original author hasn't had time since a great while.) A different matter is the 3D representation, the bo105 model. I'm not a helicopter (or other) pilot and I can still be taught a lot. (Just spare me comments about how the bo model should be textured etc. If anyone knows that, it's definitely me! :-) m. [1] http://baron.flightgear.org/pipermail/flightgear-devel/2003-October/021940.html ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Re: Flying Helicopters ?
I'm afraid that fgfs is not suitable for helicopter training yet. Autorotation isn't the only thing that's missing. Ground effect and a few other effects aren't implemented either. I knew that... but i was hoping... this is the reason for way i mentionated X-plane too in my project, The FDM author knows pretty exactly what is missing[1]. He knows experienced real-world helicopter pilots, even bo105 pilots (one of which is AFAIK the head of all bo105 helicopters issues of the German army). What is missing now isn't so much good advice, but someone who knows enough physics and mathematics to implement it! (The original author hasn't had time since a great while.) :( I was hpoing to be usefull, i don't have a good skill in writing code, i tryed once to imiplement a flight planner for FG, in Java, but it was to complicated for my skills. I would love to be able to imporve the Yasim's FDM but i'm not :( A different matter is the 3D representation, the bo105 model. I'm not a helicopter (or other) pilot and I can still be taught a lot. (Just spare me comments about how the bo model should be textured etc. If anyone knows that, it's definitely me! :-) About 3D representation af AC, i'm not demanding much... i'm flying from cokpit ;) IS ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-users] Airports
Hi Grayham Grayham Smith writes Hi all, I am running FG on Windows XP and the package is running without errors. 1/In the Airport selection menu there are some 57 US Airports to choose from. The documentation suggests there should be over 2000 airports to select from. How does one access these other airports? Load the scenery for the airports you want to use.If you want to use all 2000 of them then load all the US scenery you have. I assume you are using FGRUN to start FG.Well FGRUN is smart because FRED is smart.It assumes, I assume,that if you havn't got the scenery loaded for an area you won't want to fly from there. Not like in the old days were you could start were ever you liked.But people kept saying why am I in the middle of the ocean when I should be in the middle of Texas.:-) Cheers Innis ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Re: Flying Helicopters ?
VMWare's graphics driver won't be able to use accelerated graphics. You can try, but I doubt you'll get more than a couple of frames a second. It would be a shame to spend money on VMWare just for that. OTOH if you have VMWare already it'd be a good thing to try and let us know how it works. I can suggest trying dual-boot instead. Installing Windows on VMWare will take just as much hard drive space on the VMWare virtual disk as it would on a dual-boot disk. The big disadvantage is that the dual-boot system won't have access to your linux filesystem when in Windows so you won't be able to share scenery. If you need help with managing partitions, I can offer some advice as I've successfully done partition resizing before. My biggest piece of advice, right off the bat, is BACK UP YOUR DATA before you try anything of the sort. If you want help with this feel free to message me off-list. Cheers, Josh -- Vincent Trouilliez wrote: Just try it with Wine. I suppose it might work. I have bought it about two years ago in no-name shop for five bucks I believe. I have never managed to get anything with Wine, but the 'notepad' ! :-/ I think I will think big, and try to set up WMware. Vince ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d -- Josh Norm Audette [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.gnurple.net ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 D Wysong schrieb: Can I keep FG from going back into plib and fiddling with textures once the sim is up/initialized!? I'm using a custom texture that I created using OpenGL directly (instead of via plib) and I'm getting HOSED when FG decides to go load new textures (... or when it does whatever it does when it starts making calls to ssgLoadTextures, ssgMakeMipMaps, etc., after the sim is executing). AArrgh! Are there any reasons why plib wouldn't let me build/use my own textures? (... I posted a similar question on the plib-users list to see if I get any replies) Why does FG need to load anything once the sim is executing? Are textures not allocated/created by FG until they're needed? Can this 'load-it-as-you-go' behavior be replaced with a 'load-everything' approach? What are the consequences? Until someone who knows what he's talking about comes and gives you the real answer, I'll try: FlightGear doesn't handle it's own textures. It uses the scene graph from PLIB. So it tells PLIB to display object foo on this position. PLIB itself knows foo (i.e. the geometry and the textures). But PLIB also knows quite a lot of different other objects. So it can sort the drawing order in such a way that it can minimize the OpenGL state changes. And there's a reason why we don't have all textures in memory. As you fly along some new objects (with new textures) will come into your viewport and others will go away. As you'll have more and more objects (like Golden Gate bridge, Alcatraz, ...) this is very important - you'll never have enough memory to keep all textures for all objects on the world in memory. So what should you do? Use PLIB! You'll probably need to derive your own SSGLeaf or so. This is the part I'm totaly lost at and where the PLIB list will help you. CU, Christian PS: This question also might be better asked at the flightgear-developer list. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFB97G1lhWtxOxWNFcRAqMwAJ49O9TJ3FHm0ZTfzqRVexBF5PgtDQCfXwWN r4UTCKyPiHwbVm+wa0IdTE8= =GaH3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures?
D Wysong wrote: Can I keep FG from going back into plib and fiddling with textures once the sim is up/initialized!? I'm using a custom texture that I created using OpenGL directly (instead of via plib) and I'm getting HOSED when FG decides to go load new textures (... or when it does whatever it does when it starts making calls to ssgLoadTextures, ssgMakeMipMaps, etc., after the sim is executing). AArrgh! One thing you need to understand in OpenGL is state management. FlightGear is a complex program that needs to set different opengl parameters (i.e. states) in a number of different places in the code. If one section of the code isn't careful and doesn't reset things correctly, or makes some other wierd changes, then this could cause problems later. Think about it like someone giving you turn by turn directions. If they don't tell you to turn at all the right places, and in the right order, you aren't going to end up where you want to go. Are there any reasons why plib wouldn't let me build/use my own textures? (... I posted a similar question on the plib-users list to see if I get any replies) This should all work fine. FlightGear has places where it loads or builds it's own textures too. Why does FG need to load anything once the sim is executing? Are textures not allocated/created by FG until they're needed? Can this 'load-it-as-you-go' behavior be replaced with a 'load-everything' approach? What are the consequences? What are the consequences of loading 12Gb of world data and associated textures and code all at once into main RAM? I would hunt for an opengl state management issue in your code. Also, don't forget that you must do all your texture loading in the main thread. If you mix opengl calls in different threads, they will get mixed arbitrarily and sent to the single opengl context, and you will get unpredictable results ... well actually you'll most likely get a program crash. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-users] Re: Flying Helicopters ?
* Ioan Suciu -- Wednesday 26 January 2005 15:58: * * Melchior FRANZ: TWhat is missing now isn't so much good advice, but someone who knows enough physics and mathematics to implement it! :( I was hpoing to be usefull, I know, and I didn't want to discourage you. It's just that we have had lots of discussions/good advice/complaints, but this doesn't lead anywhere, as long as nobody really works on the FDM. Andy said he might, and JSBSim will certainly have helicopters, too. Maybe one of them will be finished one day. What we have now is half-done rotor support in YASim (yes, rotor support, not helicopter support!). A different matter is the 3D representation, the bo105 model. About 3D representation af AC, i'm not demanding much... i'm flying from cokpit ;) Yes, and guess who provides the cockpit? The 3D cockpit? m. ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Airports
Grayham Smith wrote: Hi all, I am running FG on Windows XP and the package is running without errors. 1/In the Airport selection menu there are some 57 US Airports to choose from. The documentation suggests there should be over 2000 airports to select from. How does one access these other airports? Hi Grayham, As Innis suggested, once you install the scenery for the entire world, you will have all 20,000+ airports available in the selection list. Be warned though that the launcher needs to scan your entire scenery tree first, which can take a *long* time if you have all 12Gb of scenery data installed. Fred is pondering/working on a more optimal solution for the next release. There are a number of good ideas he can try so I'm sure he'll come up with something that works quite well. :-) 2/I have the three DVD's containing worldwide scenery. The documentation describes what to do with the scenery files up to a point. e.g. unzip the files e000n20.tar.gz into the terrain directory. The documentation is essentially correct, but it was written before we created a nice little scenery installer util. This is included with the windows package and can be found in the FlightGear section of your Start menu. Put in a DVD, run the scenery installer util, and you can select which areas you want to install from the DVD and intall them. Again, this is a *lot* of data so it will take some time to install everything. Alternatively, you could run something like winzip and just extract the .tgz files into C:\Program Files\FlightGear\scenery That accomplishes the *exact* same thing as running the scenery installer. This intern creates a directory called e000n20 which contains many directories like e000n20,,,21,,,22,,,23,,,24. These directories each contain files like 2956160.btg.gz and 2956160.stg. This creates a directory structure and file of:- E:\flightgear\data\scenery\terrain\e000n20\e000n20\2956160.btg.gz Is this correct? do I need to unzip the resulting .btg.gz files as they contain a .btg file? do I need to do anything with the .stg files? FlightGear can decompress the .btg.gz files on the fly so you can leave them compressed and save a bit of room on your HD. So, once you've uncompressed the 10x10 chunk into the correct scenery directory, you don't need to do anything further. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Scenery Documentation (was: 3D Rendering Problem)
Giles Robertson wrote: We get a lot of queries about installing scenery. I've put a page up on the wiki: http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/flight_gear/installing_scenery.html?wpid=16 8815 But could people check that that's correct? Giles, A couple things. For windows users, I think this is the wrong direction to approach this subject. See my other post from a couple minutes ago for how I'd explain the process to a windows user (not that I'm claiming my explanation will be understood any better, just saying that's how I'd approach it.) To nitpick, FG_SCENERY can be a path so you can list several directories. So I think that since most of these questions are coming from windows users, I start with a specific explanation targeted towards them, emphasizing the default process of installing scenery, not the underlying theory of how FG leverages environment variables and paths and things like that. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Re: Flying Helicopters ?
VMWare's graphics driver won't be able to use accelerated graphics. You can try, but I doubt you'll get more than a couple of frames a second. Ah, bad news then ! :o( It would be a shame to spend money on VMWare just for that. I don't have single penny to spend on WMWare. I donwloaed the demo version from their site, and just happen to have a friend who could give me serial number to unlock it. OTOH if you have VMWare already it'd be a good thing to try and let us know how it works. I would have to install and configure it...this is my real problem : I do'nt have any skills for doing so ! And I don't have the patience spend days on the net to learn about it. I am just a norma user, not a Linux guru... I can suggest trying dual-boot instead. Installing Windows on VMWare will take just as much hard drive space on the VMWare virtual disk as it would on a dual-boot disk. The big disadvantage is that the dual-boot system won't have access to your linux filesystem when in Windows so you won't be able to share scenery. Yep, I keep a small partition with Windows XP. I have never actually started it though, I keep it there 'just in case'. But I don't want to boot windows just to start games (or anything really). I want to play within Linux, as I spend all my time on it, but only play games a few hours per year, occasionnaly, 10 minutes here, 10 minutes there... If you need help with managing partitions, I can offer some advice as I've successfully done partition resizing before. My biggest piece of advice, right off the bat, is BACK UP YOUR DATA before you try anything of the sort. Hmmm, I don't have any way of backing my data, sadly. I have been thinking about it in the past months, I must find a solution, as I often scare myself. I am not too scared by software failures, as Linux is apparently very safe in this department, but I can't help picture my hard drive crashing. I hear that even modenr drives still crash, and I would devastated if that happened to me ! I am only 27 but I have nonetheless 10 years worth of data on my drive, I just can't afford to lose it all... :-/ If WMWare can't handly H/W accelerated graphics, I think I will try Cedega, it meant to run Windows 3D games. It's not free, but it's cheap I hear. I think the ideal solution would be to have a second machine, fitted with DOS and Windows, just to run games, which would share the keyboard/mouse/monitir of the Linux machine. This way I can stay on Linux, and switch at will to the Windows machine to play games. I could also use that second machine to backup my data, killing two birds with one stones so to speak... Vince ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures?
I'm religiously preserving the OpenGL state around everything that I'm doing (glPushAttrib() and glPopAttrib() with GL_ALL_ATTRIB_BITS). Is there something more bulletproof? Glad to know that FlightGear uses non-plib textures, too. Can you point me to a place in the source code where this occurs? To rephrase my initial question, is there a way to limit the world in which FlightGear operates to, say, 100 sq miles around my home airport and force it to load everything it needs up front (thus avoiding the '12 GB of data' consequence)? Thanks for the help. D Original message Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:36:20 -0600 From: Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures? To: FlightGear user discussions flightgear-users@flightgear.org D Wysong wrote: Can I keep FG from going back into plib and fiddling with textures once the sim is up/initialized!? I'm using a custom texture that I created using OpenGL directly (instead of via plib) and I'm getting HOSED when FG decides to go load new textures (... or when it does whatever it does when it starts making calls to ssgLoadTextures, ssgMakeMipMaps, etc., after the sim is executing). AArrgh! One thing you need to understand in OpenGL is state management. FlightGear is a complex program that needs to set different opengl parameters (i.e. states) in a number of different places in the code. If one section of the code isn't careful and doesn't reset things correctly, or makes some other wierd changes, then this could cause problems later. Think about it like someone giving you turn by turn directions. If they don't tell you to turn at all the right places, and in the right order, you aren't going to end up where you want to go. Are there any reasons why plib wouldn't let me build/use my own textures? (... I posted a similar question on the plib-users list to see if I get any replies) This should all work fine. FlightGear has places where it loads or builds it's own textures too. Why does FG need to load anything once the sim is executing? Are textures not allocated/created by FG until they're needed? Can this 'load-it-as-you-go' behavior be replaced with a 'load-everything' approach? What are the consequences? What are the consequences of loading 12Gb of world data and associated textures and code all at once into main RAM? I would hunt for an opengl state management issue in your code. Also, don't forget that you must do all your texture loading in the main thread. If you mix opengl calls in different threads, they will get mixed arbitrarily and sent to the single opengl context, and you will get unpredictable results ... well actually you'll most likely get a program crash. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Re: Flying Helicopters ?
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:40:31 +0100, Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Ioan Suciu -- Wednesday 26 January 2005 15:58: * * Melchior FRANZ: TWhat is missing now isn't so much good advice, but someone who knows enough physics and mathematics to implement it! :( I was hpoing to be usefull, I know, and I didn't want to discourage you. It's just that we have had lots of discussions/good advice/complaints, but this doesn't lead anywhere, as long as nobody really works on the FDM. Andy said he might, and JSBSim will certainly have helicopters, too. Maybe one of them will be finished one day. What we have now is half-done rotor support in YASim (yes, rotor support, not helicopter support!). A different matter is the 3D representation, the bo105 model. About 3D representation af AC, i'm not demanding much... i'm flying from cokpit ;) Yes, and guess who provides the cockpit? The 3D cockpit? :) hmm... i miss understud the part: A different matter is the 3D representation, the bo105 model. I'm not a helicopter (or other) pilot and I can still be taught a lot. (Just spare me comments about how the bo model should be textured etc. If anyone knows that, it's definitely me! :-) If i can help u, i will.. But, once upon a time, i tryed Gmax, i wanted to recreate the glider i was flying those days for msfs, but 3D design was to much for me i never gived ather shoot to this... IS ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Re: Flying Helicopters ?
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:40:31 +0100, Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Ioan Suciu -- Wednesday 26 January 2005 15:58: * * Melchior FRANZ: TWhat is missing now isn't so much good advice, but someone who knows enough physics and mathematics to implement it! :( I was hpoing to be usefull, I know, and I didn't want to discourage you. It's just that we have had lots of discussions/good advice/complaints, but this doesn't lead anywhere, as long as nobody really works on the FDM. Andy said he might, and JSBSim will certainly have helicopters, too. Maybe one of them will be finished one day. What we have now is half-done rotor support in YASim (yes, rotor support, not helicopter support!). A different matter is the 3D representation, the bo105 model. About 3D representation af AC, i'm not demanding much... i'm flying from cokpit ;) Yes, and guess who provides the cockpit? The 3D cockpit? :) hmm... i miss understud the part: A different matter is the 3D representation, the bo105 model. I'm not a helicopter (or other) pilot and I can still be taught a lot. (Just spare me comments about how the bo model should be textured etc. If anyone knows that, it's definitely me! :-) If i can help u, i will.. But, once upon a time, i tryed Gmax, i wanted to recreate the glider i was flying those days for msfs, but my model wasn't to good,... i never tryed again... i just fleu widowth 3d model.. i did just the FDM IS ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-users] Multiple PC FlightGear using the --native protoocol
Can someone help me configure FlightGear to run on multiple PCs? I am trying to set up a master node that is connected to the input device, and slave nodes that take there input from the master. Im running FlightGear under Linux and using the command line options pasted below. FlightGear starts normally (except for audio initializationI have not installed OpenAL). However, the input of the slave does not get tied to the master, and after exiting FlightGear, the console prints an error message stating that the command native=socket,in,30,204.85.191,13001,udp is not recognized. I took a look at the FlightGear command line options, and noticed the documentation for the native switch, but could not find any documentation for the protocol of the parameters required by native. Thanks! fgfs --fg-root=/usr/lib/FlightGear/data --fg-scenery=/usr/lib/FlightGear/data/Scenery --disable-random-objects --enable-horizon-effect --enable-enhanced-lighting --telnet=5501 --native=socket,in,30,204.85.191.49,13001,udp --enable-ai-models --httpd=5502 --view-offset=-180.0 ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures?
Quoting D Wysong : To rephrase my initial question, is there a way to limit the world in which FlightGear operates to, say, 100 sq miles around my home airport and force it to load everything it needs up front (thus avoiding the '12 GB of data' consequence)? First, get only the sceneries you need and put them in your scenery folder. Second, look at the visibility commands ( those bound to z/Z ) to see how the radius of the scenery cache loader is managed. -Fred ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Multiple PC FlightGear using the --native protoocol
Rahul Prasad wrote: Can someone help me configure FlightGear to run on multiple PCs? I am trying to set up a master node that is connected to the input device, and slave nodes that take there input from the master. Im running FlightGear under Linux and using the command line options pasted below. FlightGear starts normally (except for audio initializationI have not installed OpenAL). However, the input of the slave does not get tied to the master, and after exiting FlightGear, the console prints an error message stating that the command native=socket,in,30,204.85.191,13001,udp is not recognized. I took a look at the FlightGear command line options, and noticed the documentation for the native switch, but could not find any documentation for the protocol of the parameters required by native. Thanks! fgfs --fg-root=/usr/lib/FlightGear/data --fg-scenery=/usr/lib/FlightGear/data/Scenery --disable-random-objects --enable-horizon-effect --enable-enhanced-lighting --telnet=5501 --native=socket,in,30,204.85.191.49,13001,udp --enable-ai-models --httpd=5502 --view-offset=-180.0 If you are reading data in, you don't need (want?) to specify a host name/ip. Something like the following should work: For the master: --native-fdm=socket,out,60,192.0.0.101,5505,udp And then for the slave: --native-fdm=socket,in,60,,5505,udp Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Multiple PC FlightGear using the --native protoocol
Frederic Bouvier wrote: Quoting Curtis L. Olson : Rahul Prasad wrote: Can someone help me configure FlightGear to run on multiple PCs? I am trying to set up a master node that is connected to the input device, and slave nodes that take there input from the master. Im running FlightGear under Linux and using the command line options pasted below. FlightGear starts normally (except for audio initializationI have not installed OpenAL). However, the input of the slave does not get tied to the master, and after exiting FlightGear, the console prints an error message stating that the command native=socket,in,30,204.85.191,13001,udp is not recognized. I took a look at the FlightGear command line options, and noticed the documentation for the native switch, but could not find any documentation for the protocol of the parameters required by native. Thanks! fgfs --fg-root=/usr/lib/FlightGear/data --fg-scenery=/usr/lib/FlightGear/data/Scenery --disable-random-objects --enable-horizon-effect --enable-enhanced-lighting --telnet=5501 --native=socket,in,30,204.85.191.49,13001,udp --enable-ai-models --httpd=5502 --view-offset=-180.0 If you are reading data in, you don't need (want?) to specify a host name/ip. Something like the following should work: For the master: --native-fdm=socket,out,60,192.0.0.101,5505,udp And then for the slave: --native-fdm=socket,in,60,,5505,udp Do you need --fdm=null or --fdm=external on the slave, or is it implied by --native-fdm ? Yes, I believe you want to include --fdm=null on the slave command lines to disable the internal dynamics calculations. Thanks for pointing that out. Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Re: Flying Helicopters ?
You could try wine-x... It's supposed to be very good and was targeted at gaming. Haven't tried it myself, of course... LeeE On Wednesday 26 January 2005 15:01, Josh (Norm) Audette wrote: VMWare's graphics driver won't be able to use accelerated graphics. You can try, but I doubt you'll get more than a couple of frames a second. It would be a shame to spend money on VMWare just for that. OTOH if you have VMWare already it'd be a good thing to try and let us know how it works. I can suggest trying dual-boot instead. Installing Windows on VMWare will take just as much hard drive space on the VMWare virtual disk as it would on a dual-boot disk. The big disadvantage is that the dual-boot system won't have access to your linux filesystem when in Windows so you won't be able to share scenery. If you need help with managing partitions, I can offer some advice as I've successfully done partition resizing before. My biggest piece of advice, right off the bat, is BACK UP YOUR DATA before you try anything of the sort. If you want help with this feel free to message me off-list. Cheers, Josh -- Vincent Trouilliez wrote: Just try it with Wine. I suppose it might work. I have bought it about two years ago in no-name shop for five bucks I believe. I have never managed to get anything with Wine, but the 'notepad' ! :-/ I think I will think big, and try to set up WMware. Vince ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures?
Here's the deal -- I'm projecting NTSC video frames (my textures) onto a 'screen' that I've placed under the HUD b/c I'd really like to use the synthetic scenery as a backdrop for live flight video (UAV groundstation). It works... except for this texture conflict thing I keep getting hit with. My textures (video frames) are actually being loaded and displayed by FlightGear just fine (I can send pics!)... which leads me to believe the attributes are Ok. I'll glPush the attributes specifically to see if it helps, though. I'm also following the rules (glGenTextures, etc) to keep from conflicting with everyone else. I'm using the C-172 w/ 2D panel and my class calls are all made from within hud.cxx. I'm calling my Init() method (allocates the system memory region for the frame grabber) when the HUD is turned on via the masterswitch (h). I'm calling my Render() method (gets/displays a scaled subimage of the grabbed frame) from within drawHud(). Is this within the main thread that Curtis is talking about? Should I be doing this stuff elsewhere? If I let the sim come up and then enable the HUD (h), my video happily appears. The segfault I'm seeing only occurs (according to gdb traces) when FlightGear begins to load/allocate other textures. This appears to occur when I either (1) leave the immediate area, or (2) attempt to minimize the panel (s) AFTER I activate my video. If I minimize the panel (thus getting all of the texture init stuff out of the way) and THEN activate my video (h), I can switch back and forth between the 2D panel and mini panel all day with my video active.. Another question -- can I use plib to manage what I'm doing if my texture data is already in memory instead of in a file? I poked at the classes in ssg but all I found were load() methods that used filenames. I can write a class... but if it's already there I'd rather avoid the extra work. D --- Curtis L. Olson wrote: D Wysong wrote: I'm religiously preserving the OpenGL state around everything that I'm doing (glPushAttrib() and glPopAttrib() with GL_ALL_ATTRIB_BITS). Is there something more bulletproof? Hmmm, I seem to recall that there are some issues with glPush/PopAttrib(). I don't think they handle *every* possible state change, just the more common ones. You need to carefully read the opengl manual to make sure that the things you are changing are indeed covered with glPush/PopAttrib(). Also, I think we've found occaisional bugs where glPush/PopAttrib() doesn't always work as advertised. If your modified app is crashing, I suspect that either you will eventually find a state management problem, you are trying to do opengl calls outside of the main render thread, or you have a bug and are doing something (or a sequence of somethings) that opengl thinks is illegal or can't deal with. Glad to know that FlightGear uses non-plib textures, too. Can you point me to a place in the source code where this occurs? The opening splash screen does this, as does the 2d instrument panels. Cloud textures might also be loaded outside of plib. Curt. ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] 3D Rendering Problem
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 03:45:51 -0500, Ampere wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What I was told is that slow framerate on ATI cards in Linux is a driver issue. About the only thing people like you and I can do is wait for a fix from the DRI developers. ..one idea is de-rate newer cards to ATI Radeon 9200 PRO by lieing when specifing the chip set, and I'd guess the DRI guys would be easier to talk into adding support for more pipelines and associated custom plumbing, than ATI. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures?
Problem solved. I was using glPixelStore to set the image pixel width of my textures and it wasn't being properly reset. glPushAttrib/glPopAttrib doesn't give any protection for this so I had to manually reset the parameter (Good call, Curt!). Thanks for the help, everyone. ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures?
D Wysong wrote: Problem solved. I was using glPixelStore to set the image pixel width of my textures and it wasn't being properly reset. glPushAttrib/glPopAttrib doesn't give any protection for this so I had to manually reset the parameter (Good call, Curt!). Thanks for the help, everyone. Glad you got it working! Your project sounds really intersting. If you can share any video or picts, that would be great. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] Scenery Documentation (was: 3D Rendering Problem)
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:50:07 -0600, Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Giles Robertson wrote: We get a lot of queries about installing scenery. I've put a page up on the wiki: http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/flight_gear/installing_scenery.html?wpid=16 8815 But could people check that that's correct? Giles, A couple things. For windows users, I think this is the wrong direction to approach this subject. See my other post from a couple minutes ago for how I'd explain the process to a windows user (not that I'm claiming my explanation will be understood any better, just saying that's how I'd approach it.) To nitpick, FG_SCENERY can be a path so you can list several directories. So I think that since most of these questions are coming from windows users, I start with a specific explanation targeted towards them, emphasizing the default process of installing scenery, not the underlying theory of how FG leverages environment variables and paths and things like that. Regards, Curt. Yep.. I'm agreeing with Curt on this.. Give the newbie a quick start with the exact instructions for a standard install and then the explanation of what is going on. Some user coming from a windows background don't like to read too much. to put it one way: How many of you read the manual before install Microsoft office? It would be nice to have a wizard to fetch and install extra scenery and aircraft, perhaps running off fgrun or entirely separate program. George ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures?
We'll fly the system on a manned aircraft in the Spring and will capture plenty of video. I'm looking forward to seeing how the actual scenery corolates with what FlightGear generates! I'll certainly post a link once we've captured something worth looking at. D Original message Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:05:09 -0600 From: Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures? To: FlightGear user discussions flightgear-users@flightgear.org D Wysong wrote: Problem solved. I was using glPixelStore to set the image pixel width of my textures and it wasn't being properly reset. glPushAttrib/glPopAttrib doesn't give any protection for this so I had to manually reset the parameter (Good call, Curt!). Thanks for the help, everyone. Glad you got it working! Your project sounds really intersting. If you can share any video or picts, that would be great. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures?
... looking forward to seeing how the actual scenery CORRELATES, that is. Stupid spell cheakcer! :-) Original message Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:04:35 -0600 From: D Wysong [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures? To: FlightGear user discussions flightgear-users@flightgear.org We'll fly the system on a manned aircraft in the Spring and will capture plenty of video. I'm looking forward to seeing how the actual scenery corolates with what FlightGear generates! I'll certainly post a link once we've captured something worth looking at. D Original message Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:05:09 -0600 From: Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Flightgear-users] how do I disable 'dynamic' textures? To: FlightGear user discussions flightgear-users@flightgear.org D Wysong wrote: Problem solved. I was using glPixelStore to set the image pixel width of my textures and it wasn't being properly reset. glPushAttrib/glPopAttrib doesn't give any protection for this so I had to manually reset the parameter (Good call, Curt!). Thanks for the help, everyone. Glad you got it working! Your project sounds really intersting. If you can share any video or picts, that would be great. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-users mailing list Flightgear-users@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-users 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
