Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
Von: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Leon Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [ ] Default to last-used instead of source directory Does it really make sense to make this a preference option? Wouldn't it be better to add a UI that deals explicitely with processing batches of images? Adding this as a gimprc parameter would probably be easy but it seems like a quick and dirty solution. We have the chance to get this right for 2.4, so let's see if we can't find a better solution... I'd like to see the bookmarks system being used for this. Maybe in this fashion: - have a special bookmark that specifies last used directory - have a way to set one bookmark as the default bookmark If any of this is already possible, I'm currently not aware of it. This way, whenever the 'Save as' dialog comes up, the last used directory could be selected. If you don't want this, choose another default; or none and the current behaviour will be used. Of course, this is something that will have to be suggested to GTK+, but since we have so many people here who claim that they know why the fileselector is bad or good, I'd like to have my suggestions examined here first :) Michael -- Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail gratis + 3 Ausgaben stern gratis ++ Jetzt anmelden testen ++ http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail ++ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
Hi, Robert L Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also by default, starting to type a filename pops up a filename entry, as currently done. But typing a filename does not currently pop up a filename entry. There are corner cases where it does (absolute paths) but in general there is no such popup and there shouldn't be one. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
Hi, Leon Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A special batch-processing UI would have its own independent uses, (e.g. it would be handy to be able throw a macro at a batch of Gnumeric files in one go), but does not directly address the issue. /digression We're not trying to turn The GIMP into a GUI copy of ImageMagick. The purpose of the exercise is to cater straightforwardly to the batching _mindset_ rather than a specifically batched situation. Such a UI has been requested quite frequently and I think it would be very nice to be able to mark a directory or a bunch of images for batch processing. The list of selected images could be shown in a dockable (perhaps even the already existing Images dialog) and you could work your way through this list. In such a context, it would make a lot of sense to remember the save location and default to the same save directory for all images. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
Hi, Ingo Ruhnke [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Alt-Up brings you up one level in the folder hierarchy. This brings me only up one level in the presented folder hierachy, not one level up in the directory hierachy. So if I am in [Home] or [Desktop] or other 'special' locations I can't go further, even so there still would be a directory. So is it right that I have to either use the mouse or restart from / if I one to go higher than that? You can't even use the mouse to go further up from your Home directory since the Home directory (and others like Desktop) are being rerooted. They are basically a root of the directory tree without a parent node. Please note that I haven't claimed that this is a good idea. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
Hi, Leon Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I usually work from unprocessed into processed directories, so does my sister-in-law (who taught herself, so my input isn't a consideration). My wife doesn't, but would if she felt comfortable enough about the rest of the computer (she just about lost it trying to cope with XP's idiosyncrasies a few weeks ago, despite entering that experience believing that Windows is easier than what she was using (KDE)) _or_ if The GIMP made it easier. To really underscore the I am not a voice in the wilderness point, I also watched over the shoulder of two different people GIMPing stuff at LCA2005, and they both worked the same way (one of them grumbled about it at the time, less after I pointed out that he could make and dispose of bookmarks on the fly). Bookmarks do indeed work very well for this but they are obviously not the ideal solution. I don't really see how we could possible improve this. If I open the Save As dialog on an image that already has a filename, then I definitely expect the file-chooser to come up with this filename preselected. Everything else would, IMO, be a major source of confusion. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
Hi, Ingo Ruhnke [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: couldn't even figure out how to move a directory up with type-ahead, '..' doesn't work. Alt-Up brings you up one level in the folder hierarchy. My experience shows that I need a more, need to grab the mouse and whatever. The new dialog is really not much good for use with the keyboard. I can only state once more that I rarely ever use the mouse in that dialog. I use the mouse to change a file filter and I use it to manipulate bookmarks, certainly not for navigating the file list. I accept that it doesn't work for you but it is wrong to state that the new dialog is not much good for use with the keyboard. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
On Thursday 23 June 2005 16:40, Sven Neumann wrote: Leon Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I usually work from unprocessed into processed directories, so does my sister-in-law (who taught herself, so my input isn't a consideration). My wife doesn't, but would if she felt comfortable enough about the rest of the computer (she just about lost it trying to cope with XP's idiosyncrasies a few weeks ago, despite entering that experience believing that Windows is easier than what she was using (KDE)) _or_ if The GIMP made it easier. To really underscore the I am not a voice in the wilderness point, I also watched over the shoulder of two different people GIMPing stuff at LCA2005, and they both worked the same way (one of them grumbled about it at the time, less after I pointed out that he could make and dispose of bookmarks on the fly). Bookmarks do indeed work very well for this but they are obviously not the ideal solution. Agree. I don't really see how we could possible improve this. [ ] Default to last-used instead of source directory Note that the default-default is still to *not* do this. And while we're at it: [ ] Default to expanded file dialog(ue)s If I open the Save As dialog on an image that already has a filename, then I definitely expect the file-chooser to come up with this filename preselected. Yes. I think we all understand that. Everything else would, IMO, be a major source of confusion. Yes, that's absolutely correct in every detail. What I'm trying to achieve here is to put across some evidence is that Sven's good, honest, valid and valuable opinion isn't the same as everyone else's opinion - more, that everyone else includes a large number of people are are confused by an approach which is native, i'm natural and appropriate for Sven. I apologise if this comes across to you as pedantic, simplistic, condescending etc, but I can't think of an easy way to get the point across: Sven's view of the situation, excellent and obviously useful though it is, is not the only functional or useful view of the world. Here's how I see it: you are thinking in terms of the location being essentially just another property of the image, and the file dialog(ue)s being expressions of that property. Others are looking at the image as being an object within the filesystem, conceptually detached from its internal properties. Detaching the location property confuses you. Integrating it confuses others. I believe that we can and should cater for the second mindset without substantially disturbing the first. I look forward to someone else finding a third (or forth) common workflow and a way to incorporate them all into a GTK file dialog. (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/Member, Linux Professionals WA http://osia.net.au/ Member, Open Source Industry Australia http://linux.org.au/Member, Linux Australia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 12:24:24AM +0200, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: developers removed it. Why is something removed that is apparently useful to a lot of people and is no problem for someone who does not want to use it? Because it isn't needed. You can still enter the filename and without the entry it is easier to keep your eye focused on the list while you are doing that. My experience shows that I need less keystrokes to select a file with the new dialog. How are we to interpret that? You use more keystrokes because there is an additional widget on the screen? Or is this just the general the new dialogs are good, just believe me slogna? -- The choice of a -==- _GNU_ ==-- _ generation Marc Lehmann ---==---(_)__ __ __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / http://schmorp.de/ -=/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
On Thursday 23 June 2005 17:15, Leon Brooks wrote: I look forward to someone else finding a third (or forth) common workflow and a way to incorporate them all into a GTK file dialog. (-: Should add in the existing dialogue's defence (if it needs one) that I was delighted today to discover that multiple selections are active and Do The Right Thing, ie, open images from multiple files. A small thing, but inordinately pleasing. Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/Member, Linux Professionals WA http://osia.net.au/ Member, Open Source Industry Australia http://linux.org.au/Member, Linux Australia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: couldn't even figure out how to move a directory up with type-ahead, '..' doesn't work. Alt-Up brings you up one level in the folder hierarchy. This brings me only up one level in the presented folder hierachy, not one level up in the directory hierachy. So if I am in [Home] or [Desktop] or other 'special' locations I can't go further, even so there still would be a directory. So is it right that I have to either use the mouse or restart from / if I one to go higher than that? I can only state once more that I rarely ever use the mouse in that dialog. I use the mouse to change a file filter and I use it to manipulate bookmarks, certainly not for navigating the file list. I accept that it doesn't work for you but it is wrong to state that the new dialog is not much good for use with the keyboard. Well, it might still be keyboard navigatable to some degree (support for '..' and such whould be nice), but I fail to see how it should be in any way superior to the old one whe used with the keyboard. -- WWW: http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ JabberID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 59461927 ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
So here's a half baked proposal. Make of it what you will. I am beginning to see why it is quite complicated. The current file chooser stays the same by default, except that a label is added somewhere that reads Type a filename or whatever (to give some kind of visual cue that you can type a filename to it). This isn't essential to my proposal, but I think that the cue should be there in any case. Also by default, starting to type a filename pops up a filename entry, as currently done. However, there's one additional little checkbox named Dock With Chooser or the like. If this is checked, the filename entry (and checkbox) immediately integrates with the chooser, and stays there until/unless Dock With Chooser is unchecked. This state is saved, so the next time the chooser pops up it's in the same state as it last was. Therefore, if Dock With Chooser is not checked, everything behaves exactly as it does now. If it is checked, the main dialog has a tab completing pathname entry box. What happens when Dock With Chooser is selected? Let's start with some definitions: * A filename refers to the base name component of a path (i. e. what basename returns). * A dirname refers to the directory component of a path (i. e. what dirname returns, with a path component separator appended). * A pathname refers to the concatenation of a (possibly empty) directory name with a (possibly empty) filename The focus (or whatever it's called in this situation -- it's not the window receiving focus, but rather the active widget) is the same as usual, but if you start typing, focus is switched to the text entry box. The entry box starts with an empty pathname. Next, some definitions: How does tab work? Here are the cases: 1) If the entry box contains an empty pathname, tab always goes to the next widget. 2) If the most recent action was switching into the entry box, tab simply switches to the next widget. 3) If the most recent action was typing something into the entry box, tab attempts to complete as much as it can. The next tab switches to the next widget (i. e. two tabs in a row switches out). Alternatively, tab only completes as far as a single directory name. Typing tab again completes as much as it can within the next directory, and then the next tab switches out. I was also thinking that the normal tab order should simply skip the entry box, so the only ways to use the entry box are to either click in it with the mouse or start typing. That's also an alternative. (Have I missed anything?) A few more things: 1) If the dirname in the entry box is empty, any filename is interpreted relative to the otherwise selected directory. 2) If the dirname in the entry box is not empty, the directory of the entire file chooser is dynamically set to the dirname of the entry box (e. g. as a path component is typed or erased, the directory of the file chooser changes on the fly). 3) Selecting another directory with any other widget replaces any directory component typed into the chooser, but leaves the file component intact. Thus, if I've typed /foo/bar.j into the browser, and then select /home/rlk, /foo/ is erased from the entry widget, leaving /foo/bar.j. 4) Selecting a filename with other widgets in the chooser erases any filename in the widget, and replaces it component with the filename selected. Thus, if I've typed /foo/bar.j into the entry box, the directory of the entire chooser has been changed to /foo. If I now select baz.jpg via any other means, the entry box receives the text /foo/baz.jpg. No doubt I've missed some things, but this is a starting point. -- Robert Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2 Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project lead for Gimp Print --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works. --Eric Crampton ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
Hi, Leon Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [ ] Default to last-used instead of source directory Does it really make sense to make this a preference option? Wouldn't it be better to add a UI that deals explicitely with processing batches of images? Adding this as a gimprc parameter would probably be easy but it seems like a quick and dirty solution. We have the chance to get this right for 2.4, so let's see if we can't find a better solution... Sven's view of the situation, excellent and obviously useful though it is, is not the only functional or useful view of the world. Heh, needless to tell me. But it is probably good that you mention that since obviously a few people missed that point. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
On Wed, Jun 22, 2005 at 01:49:40PM +0200, Michael Thaler wrote: But unfortunately the save as... dialog does not. So everytime I save a rescaled image I have to click on the home directory button and then click until I am in the correct directory. For me it would really be an enhancement if gimp would also remember the directory where pictures are saved with save as. (I know that I can create bookmarks, but I would still prefer that gimp would remember the directory I saved the last image to, because this would save one click). This covers, exactly, one of my biggest problems with the recent Gimp. (I use 2.2.0 on Windows XP at my work.) I also find it quite annoying that there is no line edit widget where you can enter the path. In this respect the old gtk file choser widget worked very well (it probably was one of the best) and the new one completely sucks. I really don't understand why the gtk developers removed it. Why is something removed that is apparently useful to a lot of people and is no problem for someone who does not want to use it? I agree here, as well. Personally, the new gtk file choser widget is the number one reason I try not to use gtk apps. Gimp is the _only_ GTK app that I use. The only other non-KDE GUI applications I use on a regular basis (at home on Linux) are Mozilla (but only when I want to use Google Maps, otherwise I use Konqueror) and xview. (Well, there are games, too, but most are SDL-based.) Another data point: my wife was happily using GNOME 1.2 and when we upgraded here to GNOME 2.0, it only lasted about a day. I asked if she'd like to try KDE, since it seemed to make more sense. She's been using it ever since. (She uses Gimp a lot, as well as Firefox and Gthumb. I'll have to ask what her feelings are on the recent file chooser interface in Gimp.) -- -bill! Linux vs Windows studies can be divided into: [EMAIL PROTECTED]1. Studies paid for by Microsoft http://newbreedsoftware.com/ 2. Studies that conclude Linux wins ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 00:24 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote: Basically what you ask for is not logical. Currently there's exactly one File Open dialog and of course it remembers the folder it was last being used in. There is however a File Save dialog for each image and it comes up with the folder preselected that this image lives in. Now if I open an image from folder A and save it to folder B, why should the file selection dialogs of all other images (whether they are already opened or not) switch to folder B now? There is actually no good reason for such a behaviour and I expect it to cause quite some confusion. But I am open for your view on this... I agree. Say I'm working in a web design project and the files I would probably put in /home/gezim/projects/web/. So when I go to http://www.sxc.hu/ (great site for royalty free stock images, BTW) find my images, save them to /home/gezim/projects/web/ . Then I would open GIMP open ~/projects/web/flower.jpg manipulate it then guess what? I would save it back in the directory that I opened it from (/home/gezim/projects/web) . If you don't do this, then you're just disorganized and GIMP can't help you with that. When you write something to a harddrive you should (I do anyway) make sure that the location you're putting it in is logical, so it wouldn't need to be changed. -Gezim ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Because it isn't needed. You can still enter the filename and without the entry it is easier to keep your eye focused on the list while you are doing that. I for one find it quite annoying not being able to type full pathnames into the file open dialog, slows me down a lot, is irritating and also limits a lot in that I can't edit the current path with the keyboard, couldn't even figure out how to move a directory up with type-ahead, '..' doesn't work. The new dialogs is nicly usable with the mouse, but with the keyboard its IMHO *FAR* inferior to the old one, its slow, ugly (neither Ctrl-L window not the type-ahead floating thing feels natural) and simply confusing for really no good reason. Simply adding the text entry widget to the new dialog would almost instantly fix most of the problems it has and from what I can tell would make a lot of users very happy. I really don't get way this still happen, since it was a very common complain from day one, instead we got typeahead which while an improvement doesn't really solve the problems. My experience shows that I need less keystrokes to select a file with the new dialog. My experience shows that I need a more, need to grab the mouse and whatever. The new dialog is really not much good for use with the keyboard. -- WWW: http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ JabberID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 59461927 ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
On Thursday 23 June 2005 06:24, Sven Neumann wrote: Basically what you ask for is not logical. That's not quite true. It's illogical *from one perspective*; this one: Currently there's exactly one File Open dialog and of course it remembers the folder it was last being used in. There is however a File Save dialog for each image and it comes up with the folder preselected that this image lives in. Now if I open an image from folder A and save it to folder B, why should the file selection dialogs of all other images (whether they are already opened or not) switch to folder B now? Because in the minds of many people approaching this, the directory is *not* associated with the _image_, it's associated with the _program_, or to be more specific, to the _job_ or _batch_ that they're working on now. Yes, it breaks the document-centric model a little, but in some situations is it genuinely very useful and time-saving. The default should be image-centric rather than program-centric (and the help for it should explain why), but it should be simply configurable (click on one widget, not crawl off and run a config program or edit a text file) to be program-oriented, or to be more pedantic, job-centric. Another way of handling this, which would be more useful but a lot of work, is to introduce the concept of a job or batch - or at least make separate instances of The GIMP behave that way - and invisibly default newly opened images to a common batch which stays covert unless the user explicitly creates a new batch. This would allow the image-centric motif to be retained, but also cater for the workflow-oriented viewpoint that many users will (rightfully) carry with them to The GIMP. There is actually no good reason for such a behaviour You now have one to hand, O thou victim of premature optimisation, and I'm sure I could find more if necessary. (-: Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/Member, Linux Professionals WA http://osia.net.au/ Member, Open Source Industry Australia http://linux.org.au/Member, Linux Australia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] gtk file choser widget
On Thursday 23 June 2005 07:28, Gezim Hoxha wrote: Say I'm working in a web design project and the files I would probably put in /home/gezim/projects/web/. So when I go to http://www.sxc.hu/ (great site for royalty free stock images, BTW) find my images, save them to /home/gezim/projects/web/ . Then I would open GIMP open ~/projects/web/flower.jpg manipulate it then guess what? I would save it back in the directory that I opened it from (/home/gezim/projects/web). If you don't do this, then you're just disorganized and GIMP can't help you with that. Disagree. You're just organised in a different way to Sven and Gezim. When you write something to a harddrive you should (I do anyway) make sure that the location you're putting it in is logical, so it wouldn't need to be changed. True, but I'm having trouble coming to terms with the idea that your way of organising things is the only one that exists. I usually work from unprocessed into processed directories, so does my sister-in-law (who taught herself, so my input isn't a consideration). My wife doesn't, but would if she felt comfortable enough about the rest of the computer (she just about lost it trying to cope with XP's idiosyncrasies a few weeks ago, despite entering that experience believing that Windows is easier than what she was using (KDE)) _or_ if The GIMP made it easier. To really underscore the I am not a voice in the wilderness point, I also watched over the shoulder of two different people GIMPing stuff at LCA2005, and they both worked the same way (one of them grumbled about it at the time, less after I pointed out that he could make and dispose of bookmarks on the fly). Cheers; Leon -- http://cyberknights.com.au/ Modern tools; traditional dedication http://plug.linux.org.au/ Member, Perth Linux User Group http://slpwa.asn.au/Member, Linux Professionals WA http://osia.net.au/ Member, Open Source Industry Australia http://linux.org.au/Member, Linux Australia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
