Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Greg McCarroll]

* David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:21:08AM +1000, Damian Conway wrote:
> >
> >> Now if he'd just stop blaming me for stuff like DWIM.pm... ;-)
> > 
> > Well, I would if you'd just stop putting those evil thoughts in my head...
> 
> "The David made me do it!"??
> 

just wrap more tin foil around your head and everything will be ok 

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[David H. Adler]

On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:21:08AM +1000, Damian Conway wrote:
>
>> Now if he'd just stop blaming me for stuff like DWIM.pm... ;-)
> 
> Well, I would if you'd just stop putting those evil thoughts in my head...

"The David made me do it!"??

:-)

dha
-- 
David H. Adler - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
"Take myself, subtract films, and the remainder is zero"
 - Akira Kurosawa

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Piers Cawley]

Damian Conway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> Damian is so cool...
> 
> The next version of Text::Autoformat (which should be out before TPC5)
> will also leave header lines and sigs unmolested, making it truly useful
> for email tidying.

Huzzah!

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com

Re: Election Manifestos

[Dave Hodgkinson]

Simon Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:59:12AM +0100, Richard Clamp wrote:
> > Ah, he'd be fine if it weren't for those fucking mood swings.
> 
> You mean I'm nice at times?

Aren't you standing for London.pm in the election?

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy
   

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:59:12AM +0100, Richard Clamp wrote:
> Ah, he'd be fine if it weren't for those fucking mood swings.

You mean I'm nice at times?

-- 
Ever wake up feeling like a null pointer? -Allan Pratt

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Simon Cozens]

On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:21:08AM +1000, Damian Conway wrote:
> Well, I would if you'd just stop putting those evil thoughts in my head...

Evil Ideas BOF at TPC. ISAGN.

-- 
>God Save the Queen!
And let Satan take the Prime Minister...
- Tanuki, in the monastery.

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Mark Fowler]

On Thu, 24 May 2001, Leon Brocard wrote:

> Paul Makepeace sent the following bits through the ether:
>
> > Have you integrated into a mail server (module, procmail, whatever)
>
> .muttrc: set editor="/home/acme/bin/autoformat %s; xemacs -nw %s"
>
> Leon
>

in PINE

S SETUP -> C Config

display-filters: ~mark/bin/autoformat

where autoformat is simply



#!/usr/bin/perl
use strict;
use Text::Autoformat;

$_ = <>;

# don't process the headers
if (/^Subject/)
{
 print;
 print while (<>);
 exit;
}

# slurp in text and process
my $foo = $_;
$foo .= $_ while (<>);
$_ = autoformat($foo, {all => 1});

# begon disclaimers
s/The information contained in this communication.*//si;

print;



Later

Mark

--
 My other mail program has a .muttrc

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Leon Brocard]

Paul Makepeace sent the following bits through the ether:

> Have you integrated into a mail server (module, procmail, whatever)

.muttrc:
set editor="/home/acme/bin/autoformat %s; xemacs -nw %s"

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/

... Hey! Who took the cork off my lunch?

Re: Election Manifestos

[Mark Fowler]

On Thu, 24 May 2001, Simon Wistow wrote:

> Have no problem with them making money out of it it was just that it was
> ripped off and not released under the GPL and/or the changes sent back
> to us.

They don't have to under the artistic licence.  However, they do have to
"duplicate all of the original copyright notices and associated
disclaimers." which they did not do; Credit where credit is due.

Anyway, in the end IIRC the response was 'fuck it' let's have another beer
and think up some more madcap schemes.

Which brings us back around nicely to NMS and how we're going to licence
that stuff.  I think Leon will agree with me here that we should just
simply go for the 'do what the hell you want' licence.  If someone else
'steals' our code and makes a commercial library out of it, then so be it.


Oh sod this discussion for a lark, I'm off to write some free software...


Later.

Mark.

-- 
 This is my signature.  There are many like it, but this is mine.

 Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and am speaking on my behalf and my behalf
 alone.  I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything

Re: Election Manifestos

[Mark Fowler]

On Thu, 24 May 2001, Richard Clamp wrote:

> On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:13:12AM +0100, Robert Shiels wrote:
> > Typical quotes from Simon this week:
>
> Ah, he'd be fine if it weren't for those fucking mood swings.
>

You see, this is why we don't need to make a london-perl-mongers movie.
If we did, it's just turn out like SPACED.

Later.

Mark.

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Wistow]

Chris Ball wrote:
 
> I used to use At-mail a lot at work. Pseudo-interesting question of the
> day; do you really feel it was ripped off (in the stigmatism-attached
> sense of the word), or given that it was GPLed or Artistic'd anyway, that
> it's fair play to them and that's something that happens when you Give
> Code To The World sometimes?

The later versions don't bear any resemblance at all (well superficially
anyway - it's a completly new DHTML interface they have although the
modules they use are exactly the same as the ones used in Acmemail v.1)
but the early versions were identical. Even down to Leon's dodgy, non
transparent GIFs for icons. 

Have no problem with them making money out of it it was just that it was
ripped off and not released under the GPL and/or the changes sent back
to us.

Re: Election Manifestos

[Richard Clamp]

On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:13:12AM +0100, Robert Shiels wrote:
> Typical quotes from Simon this week:

Ah, he'd be fine if it weren't for those fucking mood swings.


-- 
Richard Clamp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Election Manifestos

[Robert Shiels]

Typical quotes from Simon this week:

"Oh, and fix your bloody line length."

"Roger, where we come from we have a word for people like that."

"Ripping that fucker out would be my first act. :)"

> If you didn't want your code to be used under the license terms you
> set, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SET THEM. Deal with it.

...bad language and shouting isn't big, and it isn't clever.

/Robert

- Original Message - 
From: "Simon Cozens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 23 May 2001 22:00
Subject: Re: Election Manifestos


> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:50:47PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
> > @Mail (http://webbasedemail.com/) copied my code, my docs, and my
> > images without telling me, added a configuration file, and sold it. I
> > only found out about it by accident, which wasn't good. (it's changed
> > a lot since).
> 
> This is 100% within their rights.
> 
> > They could have handled it better. They could have told me about it,
> 
> Yes, but they didn't have to.
> 
> > So either I break up and cry at how lax the Artistic License is and
> > inflict viral GPL on all my code, or I just keep on going hacking
> > code. Which do I do? ;-)
> 
> If you didn't want your code to be used under the license terms you
> set, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SET THEM. Deal with it.
> 

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Damian Conway]

   > Damian is so cool...

The next version of Text::Autoformat (which should be out before TPC5)
will also leave header lines and sigs unmolested, making it truly useful
for email tidying.

   
   > Now if he'd just stop blaming me for stuff like DWIM.pm... ;-)

Well, I would if you'd just stop putting those evil thoughts in my head...

;-)

Damian

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Damian Conway]

   > Minor problemette is, when 1.0.4 is called at the end of the file:
   > Can't call method "signature" on an undefined value at
   > /usr/local/share/perl/5.6.0/Text/Autoformat.pm line 779.

Noted and fixed for the next release.

Damian

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Paul Makepeace]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:51:26PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote:
>   map g !G perl -MText::Autoformat -eautoformat 
>   map z !G perl -MText::Autoformat -e 'autoformat{ all => 1 }' 
> 
> ...shamelessly stolen, lock stock and barrel from Damian's article in
> the new TPJ. :-)

Cool, thanks. Actually I think I saw that at TPC too.

Minor problemette is, when 1.0.4 is called at the end of the file:
Can't call method "signature" on an undefined value at
/usr/local/share/perl/5.6.0/Text/Autoformat.pm line 779.

Paul, having thoughts about using nvi with its embedded perl interpreter
to speed that up a bit...

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[David H. Adler]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:41:33PM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:23:49PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote:
> > You should use Damian's Text::AutoFormat.  I just used it to reformat
> > the bit above beginning with "Indeed".  Lovely thing.
> 
> Have you integrated into a mail server (module, procmail, whatever)
> so that it gets cleaned on the way in, or does your mail client do it,
> or have you some on-demand vi/emacs macros? Do tell!

from my .vimrc:

map g !G perl -MText::Autoformat -eautoformat 
map z !G perl -MText::Autoformat -e 'autoformat{ all => 1 }' 

...shamelessly stolen, lock stock and barrel from Damian's article in
the new TPJ. :-)

The first does the current paragraph, the second does all paragraphs
down to the end of the document.

Damian is so cool...  Now if he'd just stop blaming me for stuff like
DWIM.pm... ;-)

dha

-- 
David H. Adler - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out
of Meat.  - Phillip, Goats, 20sep99

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Paul Makepeace]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:23:49PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote:
> You should use Damian's Text::AutoFormat.  I just used it to reformat
> the bit above beginning with "Indeed".  Lovely thing.

Have you integrated into a mail server (module, procmail, whatever)
so that it gets cleaned on the way in, or does your mail client do it,
or have you some on-demand vi/emacs macros? Do tell!

Paul

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:50:47PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
> @Mail (http://webbasedemail.com/) copied my code, my docs, and my
> images without telling me, added a configuration file, and sold it. I
> only found out about it by accident, which wasn't good. (it's changed
> a lot since).

This is 100% within their rights.

> They could have handled it better. They could have told me about it,

Yes, but they didn't have to.

> So either I break up and cry at how lax the Artistic License is and
> inflict viral GPL on all my code, or I just keep on going hacking
> code. Which do I do? ;-)

If you didn't want your code to be used under the license terms you
set, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SET THEM. Deal with it.

-- 
It's 106 miles from Birmingham, we've got an eighth of a tank of gas,
half a pack of Dorritos, it's dusk, and we're wearing contacts.
- Malcolm Ray

Re: Election Manifestos

[Leon Brocard]

Chris Ball sent the following bits through the ether:

> I used to use At-mail a lot at work. Pseudo-interesting question of the
> day; do you really feel it was ripped off (in the stigmatism-attached
> sense of the word), or given that it was GPLed or Artistic'd anyway, that
> it's fair play to them and that's something that happens when you Give
> Code To The World sometimes?

OK: I released acmemail under GPL&AL because I wanted it to be used by
the most amount of people and I wasn't intending to make money off it.

@Mail (http://webbasedemail.com/) copied my code, my docs, and my
images without telling me, added a configuration file, and sold it. I
only found out about it by accident, which wasn't good. (it's changed
a lot since).

If I remember correctly, they got around any license issues by selling
the webmail servers to companies as a service, and not a product.

They could have handled it better. They could have told me about it,
asked about selling it / giving me a token present. They could have
given patches back to acmemail and not forked the code too much. I
wasn't happy at all with them at the time. They sent me nasty letters
about my accusations. It was blatently my code.

Overall, kudos to them, they appear to be able to sell a simple Perl
script for  a pop to large corporations.

So either I break up and cry at how lax the Artistic License is and
inflict viral GPL on all my code, or I just keep on going hacking
code. Which do I do? ;-)

Hmmm, let's rewrite the Cathedral and the Bazaar, but as a failure for
open source in this case ;-)

Leon
-- 
... Squeeze

Re: Election Manifestos

[Chris Ball]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:04:19AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> It's a pity Acmemail never really took off (apart from being ripped off
> and turned into a succesful company by At-mail)

I used to use At-mail a lot at work. Pseudo-interesting question of the
day; do you really feel it was ripped off (in the stigmatism-attached
sense of the word), or given that it was GPLed or Artistic'd anyway, that
it's fair play to them and that's something that happens when you Give
Code To The World sometimes?

I just got out of an Algorithms exam, and my head hurts. Apologies if
this is too random. :)

-- 
Chris Ball.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] || http://printf.net/
perl -e '$0 = s/-//; print "Just another P$0rl hacker"'

RE: Election Manifestos

[Robin Szemeti]

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Cross David - dcross wrote:
> From: Leon Brocard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:43 AM
> 
> > Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether:
> > 
> > > This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's
> > > definition of a decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just
> > > slap the authors until it does :)
> > 
> > You'll be happy to know that I gave up ownership of acmemail a while
> > back stating that: a) I wasn't using it b) hence I wasn't improving it
> > c) I don't have time for things I don't use. I handed it over to a
> > couple of guys in the acmemail "community" who are slowly plodding
> > along. It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss.
> 
> OK. But you'd still be able to install it far easier than anyone else in the
> group :)

Sqwebmail is nice .. works well with the Qmail/Vopmail/Courier-IMAP suite
.. been running it on a couple of sites for a couple of years and not had
much trouble (apart from thick users) ...

-- 
Robin Szemeti   

Redpoint Consulting Limited
Real Solutions For A Virtual World 

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[David H. Adler]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:52:39PM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:32:09PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
> > 
> > >Much as I'd love it if everyone was to be able to post to the list from their 
>favourite Unix mail client all the time, 
> > 
> > 
> > Oxymoron, surely?
> 
> Not in the slightest.  Now if you'd said "favourite gui mail client",
> you might be correct.

No, I think that's still not a contradiction.  "good gui mail client"
probably is, however.

> > Indeed. And some of us use display technology that doesn't have an
> > overwhelming urge to be backward compatible with 1972, and can
> > therefore do cool futuristic stuff like handle more than 72 columns.
> 
> However, the cool futuristic stuff like CORRECT BLOODY WORK WRAPPING is
> completely beyond it, despite the fact it's been implemented correctly
> countless times before over the past 30 years or so.

You should use Damian's Text::AutoFormat.  I just used it to reformat
the bit above beginning with "Indeed".  Lovely thing.

dha
-- 
David H. Adler - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
philosophy department 
- you don't have to be to work here, but it helps

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Niklas Nordebo]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:52:39PM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> However, the cool futuristic stuff like CORRECT BLOODY WORK WRAPPING is

I generally avoid this issue by not working so much that it needs wrapping.

-- 
Niklas Nordebo -><- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -><- +447966251290
 "The day is seven hours and fifteen minutes old, and already it's
crippled with the weight of my evasions, deceit, and downright lies"

Re: Election Manifestos

[Philip Newton]

Simon Wistow wrote:
> the DBI abstraction was, well, nonexistent.

As in, if your script has lots of calls to mysql_this and mysql_that, it
doesn't look very database independent.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Dominic Mitchell]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:32:09PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
> At 07:49 23/05/01 +0100, you wrote:
> >At 17:37 22/05/2001, Roger Burton West wrote:
> >
> >
> >>And get a shell account, why don't you?
> >
> >Thanks. I already have several. 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
> >Much as I'd love it if everyone was to be able to post to the list from their 
>favourite Unix mail client all the time, 
> 
> 
> Oxymoron, surely?

Not in the slightest.  Now if you'd said "favourite gui mail client",
you might be correct.

> >have the time or knowledge to do that. This email client snobbery is getting too 
>frequent. Just because someone is posting from an Exchange server, it doesn't 
>necessarily mean that what they are saying is less valid.

This is very reasonable.  But nonetheless, being able to present
onesself in a reasonable fashion makes communicating a lot easier.

I'm just glad that people here speak in plain english, as opposed to the
complete abortion phone-messaging ``language'' that I see all over the
rest of my delete key.

> Indeed. And some of us use display technology that doesn't have an overwhelming urge 
>to be backward compatible with 1972, and can therefore do cool futuristic stuff like 
>handle more than 72 columns.

However, the cool futuristic stuff like CORRECT BLOODY WORK WRAPPING is
completely beyond it, despite the fact it's been implemented correctly
countless times before over the past 30 years or so.

And besides, how many newspapers do you see with text that goes on and
on all over the page?  (obvious nasty comments about newspapers aside)

> >:->
> 
> 
> >Dave...
> >[bugger! another grumpy start to the day]
> 
> I blame the hot weather. It's unnatural.
> 
> Jon 'Troll? Where?' Peterson

Time to get me a shotgun and go back a few trolls!  Yes, sirree!

-Dom

Re: Election Manifestos

[Jonathan Peterson]

At 07:49 23/05/01 +0100, you wrote:
>At 17:37 22/05/2001, Roger Burton West wrote:
>
>
>>And get a shell account, why don't you?
>
>Thanks. I already have several. 

[snip]


>Much as I'd love it if everyone was to be able to post to the list from their 
>favourite Unix mail client all the time, 


Oxymoron, surely?

>have the time or knowledge to do that. This email client snobbery is getting too 
>frequent. Just because someone is posting from an Exchange server, it doesn't 
>necessarily mean that what they are saying is less valid.

Indeed. And some of us use display technology that doesn't have an overwhelming urge 
to be backward compatible with 1972, and can therefore do cool futuristic stuff like 
handle more than 72 columns.

>:->


>Dave...
>[bugger! another grumpy start to the day]

I blame the hot weather. It's unnatural.

Jon 'Troll? Where?' Peterson


-- 
Jonathan Peterson
Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Election Manifestos

[Martin Ling]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 02:06:13PM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> 
> > > But they fixed references in 6.0! No, wait, they just introduced a
> > > load of Thread-* headers :-( Fucking morons.
> > 
> > They just innovated threading!
> > 
> > Tell me you're joking.
> 
> If I was joking I wouldn't have "ignore Thread-" in my .muttrc :-(
> 
> Thread-Topic: Subject line goes here.
> Thread-Index: AcDZqhhI7VsxDWt9TIyjVP5af1xC5wAANWVg  

I've just spent five minutes trying to respond to this without actually
screaming. Sorry, but I can't.


Martin

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Wistow]

AEF wrote:

>  Could you elaborate on that a little? It's not too much of a danger, but
> I may have to persuade people that PHP isn't the right solution for a
> large-scale application. I know quite a few of the arguments, but it'd be
> nice to have some real-world examples...

Well I haven't played aroudn with it much for a few years but from what
I remember it had all of Perl's problems with writing large scale apps
(like no typing at the API level) plus you couldn't have more than 1
level of inheritence and the OO-iness of PHP just sucked in general.
This may have changed since Version 3. 

It was difficult to abstract content from logic (although it's kind of a
templating system in its own right), the library system isn't nearly as
good either as a way to load libraries in or as a repository (but then
what programming language does have an equivalent to CPAN) and the DBI
abstraction was, well, nonexistent.

And it wasn't nearly as powerful as Perl.

Twas nearly two years ago though.

Still quite like it for quick stuff though.

Re: Election Manifestos

[AEF]

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Simon Wistow wrote:

> Imp was crap when we started and it's also PHP based. I like PHP (/me
> gets coat) but I wouldn't do a large scale application in it (especially
> since I had just just done one then and hit some very large limitations)

 Could you elaborate on that a little? It's not too much of a danger, but
I may have to persuade people that PHP isn't the right solution for a
large-scale application. I know quite a few of the arguments, but it'd be
nice to have some real-world examples...

 Tony

Re: Election Manifestos

[Mark Fowler]

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Simon Cozens wrote:

> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:17:14AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> > But Mail::Cclient is also unbeleivably powerful. Lying round on my HD
> > there's a Mail::Cclient::Simple which amkes everything much easier but
> > it's one of many projects I've never got round to finishing. Why
> > reinvent the wheel by rolling my own or using 5 or 6 different modules
> > when one will do.
>
> Because it doesn't exist? :) OTOH, Mail::Cclient does do NNTP as well, which
> would be a boost, because WING is meant to be the Web IMAP and NNTP Gateway.

Mail::Cclient was (not sure if it is still) a bitch to install.  Requires
c headers from IMAP libraries.  How likely is it that you have these
(still) lying around on your client machine[1]?

Most people opt for something that they can get to install easily[2]
rather than something more powerful.  If I can't just write a bundle for
cpan then it's probably not worth the bother...

Oh, let's just add it to the list of things to do once we've done NMS, the
new website for london.pm.org and conferences are out of the way...

Later.

Mark.

[1] Rhetorical question, not flame bait.
[2] in under 2 hours

-- 
 My other mail has a signature

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:17:14AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> But Mail::Cclient is also unbeleivably powerful. Lying round on my HD
> there's a Mail::Cclient::Simple which amkes everything much easier but
> it's one of many projects I've never got round to finishing. Why
> reinvent the wheel by rolling my own or using 5 or 6 different modules
> when one will do.
 
Because it doesn't exist? :) OTOH, Mail::Cclient does do NNTP as well, which
would be a boost, because WING is meant to be the Web IMAP and NNTP Gateway.

> Imp was crap when we started and it's also PHP based. I like PHP (/me
> gets coat) but I wouldn't do a large scale application in it (especially
> since I had just just done one then and hit some very large limitations)
> plus it doesn't have the community support that Perl does or CPAN and it
> was difficult to extract presentation from logic.

If I were to deploy Imp, I wouldn't care how much community support PHP had,
I'd care how much community support Imp had.

-- 
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas.   If your ideas are any good, 
you'll have to ram them down people's throats."
 -- Howard Aiken

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Wistow]

Simon Cozens wrote:
> 
> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:04:19AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> > that Mail::Cclient is powerful but complicated and can be a bitch to
> > install,
> 
> And use. Ripping that fucker out would be my first act. :)
> There's also http://www.horde.org/imp/ which is reasonably popular.

But Mail::Cclient is also unbeleivably powerful. Lying round on my HD
there's a Mail::Cclient::Simple which amkes everything much easier but
it's one of many projects I've never got round to finishing. Why
reinvent the wheel by rolling my own or using 5 or 6 different modules
when one will do.

Imp was crap when we started and it's also PHP based. I like PHP (/me
gets coat) but I wouldn't do a large scale application in it (especially
since I had just just done one then and hit some very large limitations)
plus it doesn't have the community support that Perl does or CPAN and it
was difficult to extract presentation from logic.

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:04:19AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> that Mail::Cclient is powerful but complicated and can be a bitch to
> install,

And use. Ripping that fucker out would be my first act. :)
There's also http://www.horde.org/imp/ which is reasonably popular.

-- 
"Jesus ate my mouse" or some similar banality.
-- Megahal (trained on asr), 1998-11-06

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Wistow]

Simon Cozens wrote:
> 
> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:43:23AM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
> > It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss.
> 
> Yet Another Webmail Client; it wasn't exactly filling a gaping niche.
> (And I say that as someone who may soon be maintaining one of the others...)

It did at the time - IIRC there weren't any (good) GPL-ed Webmail
clients when Leon started Acmemail and when I (well, Mark and I) were
working on it to get it integrated for a free ISP I hunted around and
there wasn't anything nearly as good (IMO) except Malcom Beattie's Wing
(http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mbeattie/wing/) which I looked at but didn't
like the structure.

It's a pity Acmemail never really took off (apart from being ripped off
and turned into a succesful company by At-mail) because it had loads of
great fetaures, was easy to extend and customise (especially the latest
development branch) and could easily (a month of good hacking) have had
feature sets to rival or beat anything I've seen including Hotmail and
Yahoomail.

On the other hand I learnt a lot about writing good, abstracted, large
scale CGI applications and maintainable, reusable code. I learnt about
doing mail and MIME properly under Perl, about working as a team on
code, Open Source software development models, that Mail::Cclient is
powerful but complicated and can be a bitch to install, supporting users
(God some of them are stupid) and writing documentation and installation
guides. 

Which was nice.

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:43:23AM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
> It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss.

Yet Another Webmail Client; it wasn't exactly filling a gaping niche.
(And I say that as someone who may soon be maintaining one of the others...)

-- 
4.2BSD may not be a complete disaster, but it does a good job of emulating one.

RE: Election Manifestos

[Mark Fowler]

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Cross David - dcross wrote:

> I've had another idea tho'. Why don't we install acmemail on Penderel and
> suggest that people with braindead mail clients use that?
>
> This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's definition of a
> decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just slap the authors until it
> does :)

Oi, what did I ever do to you.  Slap Leon around as much as you want, but
leave me out of it.

Later.

Mark.

(who suggests that someone writes a script that will accept mail, fixxor
the threading into a proper format and sends it on, security allowing...)

RE: Election Manifestos

[Cross David - dcross]

From: Leon Brocard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:43 AM

> Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether:
> 
> > This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's
> > definition of a decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just
> > slap the authors until it does :)
> 
> You'll be happy to know that I gave up ownership of acmemail a while
> back stating that: a) I wasn't using it b) hence I wasn't improving it
> c) I don't have time for things I don't use. I handed it over to a
> couple of guys in the acmemail "community" who are slowly plodding
> along. It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss.

OK. But you'd still be able to install it far easier than anyone else in the
group :)

Dave...

-- 


The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
original message or any copy of it from your computer
system.

Re: Election Manifestos

[Leon Brocard]

Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether:

> This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's
> definition of a decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just
> slap the authors until it does :)

You'll be happy to know that I gave up ownership of acmemail a while
back stating that: a) I wasn't using it b) hence I wasn't improving it
c) I don't have time for things I don't use. I handed it over to a
couple of guys in the acmemail "community" who are slowly plodding
along. It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss.

Leon
-- 
... My other computer is a 500-node Beowulf cluster

RE: Election Manifestos

[Cross David - dcross]

From: Paul Makepeace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 8:00 AM

> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:49:48AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
> > Yes, there _are_ always round it, but some people don't have the time 
> > or knowledge to do that.
> 
> You're more than welcome to snag this Java 1.1 SSH client at 
> 
> http://paulm.com/login/index.html
> http://paulm.com/login/mindtermfull.jar

Thanks Paul. I'll investigate that when I next have a free half hour.

I've had another idea tho'. Why don't we install acmemail on Penderel and
suggest that people with braindead mail clients use that?

This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's definition of a
decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just slap the authors until it
does :)

Dave...
[positive suggestions r us]

-- 


The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
original message or any copy of it from your computer
system.

Re: Election Manifestos

[Paul Makepeace]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:49:48AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
> Yes, there _are_ always round it, but some people don't have the time 
> or knowledge to do that.

You're more than welcome to snag this Java 1.1 SSH client at 

http://paulm.com/login/index.html
http://paulm.com/login/mindtermfull.jar

HTH,
Paul

Re: Election Manifestos

[Dave Cross]

At 17:37 22/05/2001, Roger Burton West wrote:
>On or about Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:23:32PM +0100, Cross David - dcross typed:
>
> >I've not actually seen the manifesto, but from what I'm told it really means
>
>If you can't be bothered to take a few minutes to look, why the hell are
>you posting about it? The actual text is:
>
>"A future Conservative Government will repeal IR35 and replace it with
>legislation that addresses genuine abuses."

Because, although I hadn't read the manifesto, I _had_ read the news 
stories when this piece of policy was announced about two months ago.

>In other words, it'll be in the pockets of whichever lobby group pays
>them most at the time, just as the Labour one was.

Exactly. What I object to is the contractors I hear saying that just 
because the Tories have said they'll abolish IR35 then they _must_ vote for 
them. Conveniently ignoring a few facts:

1/ The second half of the sentence states that it will be replaced by 
something else. And we really have no idea what it might be.

2/ Most intelligent people make up their minds who to vote for on the basis 
of more than one issue.

3/ Some contractors don't actually agree that IR35 is such a bad thing.

[snip oversized corporate disclaimer]

>And get a shell account, why don't you?

Thanks. I already have several. And I can't get to any of them from within 
Acxiom without spending inordinate amounts of time doing things that I'm 
not being paid for. I will, however, spend some time this weekend trying to 
fix my webmail that my ISP broke somehow a couple of months ago.

Much as I'd love it if everyone was to be able to post to the list from 
their favourite Unix mail client all the time, I understand that is never 
going to happen. We are just going to accept that some people will always 
be forced to post using whatever email fuckwittage their company lands them 
with. Yes, there _are_ always round it, but some people don't have the time 
or knowledge to do that. This email client snobbery is getting too 
frequent. Just because someone is posting from an Exchange server, it 
doesn't necessarily mean that what they are saying is less valid.

I intended this group (and, by extension, this mailing list) to be 
inclusive. We should be encouraging people to use Perl, not scaring them 
off because they use the wrong email client.

Dave...
[bugger! another grumpy start to the day]


-- 
  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Perl Training in the UK

Re: Election Manifestos

[Paul Makepeace]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 09:14:05PM +0100, Martin Ling wrote:
> On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 11:11:23AM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> > 
> > I *loathe* Exchange.
> > 
> > But they fixed references in 6.0! No, wait, they just introduced a
> > load of Thread-* headers :-( Fucking morons.
> 
> They just innovated threading!
> 
> Tell me you're joking.

If I was joking I wouldn't have "ignore Thread-" in my .muttrc :-(

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Paul

Re: Election Manifestos

[Alex Gough]

On Tue, 22 May 2001, Robin Szemeti wrote:

> hmmm .. I was tempted just to let it pass .. but I can't resist ;)
> 
> What you need to remember is this : They will say ANYTHING to get your
> vote .. ANYTHING.

Even the truth?  I'd very much doubt that.

Alex Gough
-- 
I don't believe that honesty leads to madness.  I don't believe we
need delusions to stay sane.  I don't believe the truth is strewn with
booby-traps, waiting to swallow up anyone who thinks too much.  There
is nowhere to fall -- not unless you stand there digging the hole.

Re: Election Manifestos

[Robin Szemeti]

On Tue, 22 May 2001, Paul Mison wrote:
> On 22/05/2001 at 16:19 +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
> 
> >the immediate feeling I get is to rent some cellars at the houses of
> >parliament  and invest in a number of big barrels of gunpowder .. oh hang
> >on that ones been done before and had a distinctly negative outcome .. OK
> >.. perhaps someting more subtle then ;)
> 
> For whom? Guy Fawkes 

yup .. thats what was putting me off the plan.

> but it ended in a Bill of Rights that led to what's arguably the first
> constituitonal monarchy in the modern world.

umm .. hang on .. wasn't that another pre-election promise I remember
from the last time we had a government given to us? ... yeah .. I'm sure
one lot was wittering on about having a proper bill of rights .. whose lot
was that then? ... 

-- 
Robin Szemeti   

Redpoint Consulting Limited
Real Solutions For A Virtual World 

Re: Election Manifestos

[Martin Ling]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 11:11:23AM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> 
> I *loathe* Exchange.
> 
> But they fixed references in 6.0! No, wait, they just introduced a
> load of Thread-* headers :-( Fucking morons.

They just innovated threading!

Tell me you're joking.


Martin

Re: Election Manifestos

[Paul Makepeace]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 06:49:01PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
> Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether:
> 
> > [SNIP!]
> 
> Please fix your mailer to do proper In-Reply-To and References
> headers. It's really really annoying.

I *loathe* Exchange.

But they fixed references in 6.0! No, wait, they just introduced a
load of Thread-* headers :-( Fucking morons.

Paul

Re: Election Manifestos

[Martin Ling]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:25:36PM +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
> 
> Thanks, that's going in my sigfile.

Your sigfile is a mighty repository of evil.


Martin

Re: Election Manifestos

[Leon Brocard]

Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether:

> [SNIP!]

Please fix your mailer to do proper In-Reply-To and References
headers. It's really really annoying.

Leon
-- 
... Money is the root of all wealth

Re: Election Manifestos

[Chris Heathcote]

on 22/5/01 5:26 pm, Robin Szemeti wrote:

>> Errr... no PR yet for general elections!
> 
> really .. are you sure ? .. I'm certain this lot said they were going
> to do something about that ... how odd.

It was part of the buttering-up in case of a need for a Lib-Lab pact. It's
certainly been pushed on the back burner.

I feel more strongly about this than any particular party...

c.
-- 
 every day, computers are making people easier to use

  http://www.unorthodoxstyles.com

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:37:23PM +0100, Roger Burton West wrote:
> If you can't be bothered to take a few minutes to look, why the hell are
> you posting about it?

But I wanna type, I wanna type, I wanna type!

Roger, where we come from we have a word for people like that.

-- 
I did write and prove correct a 20-line program in January, but I made
the mistake of testing it on our VAX and it had an error, which two
weeks of searching didn't uncover, so there went one publication out the
window.  - David Gries, 1980

Re: Election Manifestos

[Roger Burton West]

On or about Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:23:32PM +0100, Cross David - dcross typed:

>I've not actually seen the manifesto, but from what I'm told it really means

If you can't be bothered to take a few minutes to look, why the hell are
you posting about it? The actual text is:

"A future Conservative Government will repeal IR35 and replace it with 
legislation that addresses genuine abuses."

In other words, it'll be in the pockets of whichever lobby group pays
them most at the time, just as the Labour one was.

>The information contained in this communication is
>confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
>named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
>of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
>hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
>copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
>If you have received this communication in error, please 
>re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
>original message or any copy of it from your computer
>system.

And get a shell account, why don't you?

Re: Election Manifestos

[Robin Szemeti]

On Tue, 22 May 2001, Chris Heathcote wrote:
> on 22/5/01 4:19 pm, Robin Szemeti wrote:
> 
> > thank goodness for
> > proportioanl representation, it should make the next parliament a lot
> > more representative of what people actually want, ratehr than a choice
> > between 2 (and a half ) evils.
> 
> Errr... no PR yet for general elections!

really .. are you sure ? .. I'm certain this lot said they were going
to do something about that ... how odd. Its almost as if they said they
would look at it .. got elected on a huge majority .. looked at it and
discovered they would have a much smaller majority under PR and said
'bollocks to that for a game of soldiers' and completely forgot about the
whole thing...

don't get me wrong the other lot would have done *exactly* the same thing
.. but since this lot know they stand an extremely good chance of a second
term they feel at liberty to ignore any pre election promises. 

Is that an oxy-moron .. politician and promise?

-- 
Robin Szemeti   

Redpoint Consulting Limited
Real Solutions For A Virtual World 

RE: Election Manifestos

[Cross David - dcross]

From: Simon Wistow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 4:03 PM

> According to the Register ...
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/19112.html
> 
> the Tory's want to repeal IR35,

I've not actually seen the manifesto, but from what I'm told it really means


We're going to repeal IR35


...and replace it with something else that does the same thing


Plus ca change...

Dave...

-- 


The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
original message or any copy of it from your computer
system.

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 05:16:41PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
>Labour were voted in on the basis of the Tories screw ups. 

Yes, so what you said about the party's previous record as, indeed,
irrelevant.

> Labour hasn't screwed up yet. 

Thanks, that's going in my sigfile.

Oh, and fix your bloody line length.

-- 
Thus spake the master programmer:
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless."
-- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"

Re: Election Manifestos

[Jonathan Peterson]

At 17:01 22/05/01 +0100, you wrote:
>Right, yes, which is why we - sorry, you plural, I was way out of the country
>at the time - elected Labour based on their fantastic performance last time
>which lead to the General Strike and the Winter of Discontent. Sorry, a
>nanosecond of thought would show that that is complete bullshit.

Not so. Labour were voted in on the basis of the Tories screw ups. Like I said, we 
vote against the party that has most recently screwed up. Labour hasn't screwed up 
yet. The economy is pretty OK, house prices haven't crashed, unemployment is OK. This 
is what people vote on. No-one really cares about the dome. No-one cares about asylum 
seekers unless they live in Dover. No-one cares about building 500,000 houses unless 
they are going to be built right next to them. No-one even cares that much about crime 
unless they've been a victim of it during the last government. No-one cares about the 
NHS unless they or a relative have a serious illness.

Remember - Economy, property prices, unemployment. Get those right, avoid foreign wars 
(can be OK, but too risky), and you stay in power. Simple. It helps if you kiss babies 
and have charisma, but that's hardly a new thing.



-- 
Jonathan Peterson
Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 04:44:25PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
> We vote for the encumbent party until they screw up big time and then we
> switch and repeat the process.

Except we don't while they can arrange for elections to be when everyone's
forgotten about their big screwups. Also, in fact, most of the voters are too
oblivious to or closed-minded about or basically too damned stupid to
recognise their big screw-ups anyway. 

Besides, what do you call a big screw up? The Dome was a screw-up from start
to finish, but it hasn't made a scrap of difference. F&M was handled amazingly
badly, but that hasn't made any difference either. Nor has the Hindujas, or
Mandelson or Robinson. The NHS? Health of the nation not quite a big enough
screw-up? Or the schools?

Deciding who should govern us is far too important to be left to the plebs.

> There's no point judging the parties on what they say they'll do, only on
> what they did last time they were in power.

Right, yes, which is why we - sorry, you plural, I was way out of the country
at the time - elected Labour based on their fantastic performance last time
which lead to the General Strike and the Winter of Discontent. Sorry, a
nanosecond of thought would show that that is complete bullshit.

-- 
In related wibbling, I can see an opening for the four lusers of the
Apocalypse... "I didn't change anything", "My e-mail doesn't work",
"I can't print" and "Is the network broken?".
- Paul Mc Auley

Re: Election Manifestos

[Chris Heathcote]

on 22/5/01 4:46 pm, Simon Wistow wrote:

> Simon Cozens wrote:
> 
>> I've yet to hear a Labour MP talk eloquently about anything at all. Anyone
>> ever talked - sorry, tried talking - to their MP about RIP?
> 
> Harriet Harman tried to tell me that I didn't really know about
> computers or the Internet.

There's a current trend towards minority-interest voting websites (e.g. what
does every MP think about gay rights, plus voting record, same for electoral
reform, green issues etc. etc.). Is there a computer/privacy/Internet
version? 
(or: is faxyourmp.com doing one? ;) )

c.
-- 
 every day, computers are making people easier to use

  http://www.unorthodoxstyles.com

Re: Election Manifestos

[Paul Mison]

On 22/05/2001 at 16:19 +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:

>the immediate feeling I get is to rent some cellars at the houses of
>parliament  and invest in a number of big barrels of gunpowder .. oh hang
>on that ones been done before and had a distinctly negative outcome .. OK
>.. perhaps someting more subtle then ;)

For whom? Guy Fawkes and co came off badly, and the next 85 years were
hardly a bundle of laughs (rising discontent, civil war, puritan
dictatorship, baudy restoration, tension) but it ended in a Bill of
Rights that led to what's arguably the first constituitonal monarchy in
the modern world.

Um, sorry, had a minor burst of 17th century history. Won't happen again.

--
:: paul
:: stay all day
:: if you want to

Re: Election Manifestos

[Jonathan Peterson]

At 16:31 22/05/01 +0100, you wrote:
>On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 04:16:16PM +0100, Chris Heathcote wrote:
>> From air-conditioned tubes, thru to RIPA, to cheap petrol, it's
>> bandwagon-jumping.
>
>Ah, congratulations! You seem to have been completely politically
>brainwashed; i

The cynicism of the electorate will rise or fall to match the cynicism of the elected, 
nothing more.

It is always best to judge politicians on what they do, not what they say. This is 
always a problem for the parties not in power, as they haven't had the chance to do 
anything. Thus, all they can really do come election time is to point out the things 
the party in power has done wrong. This then gets called 'negative campaigning'.

However, it strikes me as simply being the way modern democracy works and we should 
just get on with it. We vote for the encumbent party until they screw up big time and 
then we switch and repeat the process.

There's no point judging the parties on what they say they'll do, only on what they 
did last time they were in power.




-- 
Jonathan Peterson
Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Election Manifestos

[Leon Brocard]

Chris Heathcote sent the following bits through the ether:

> It seems that every promise in the Tory manifesto is based on hearsay

It'd be okay if they were based on shaggy or fat boy slim...

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/

... It sucks. But why does it suck?

Re: Election Manifestos

[Chris Heathcote]

on 22/5/01 4:19 pm, Robin Szemeti wrote:

> thank goodness for
> proportioanl representation, it should make the next parliament a lot
> more representative of what people actually want, ratehr than a choice
> between 2 (and a half ) evils.

Errr... no PR yet for general elections!

Slight aside, but the Electoral Reform Society urgently needs new members...
see http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/ for details of how to join.

c.
-- 
 every day, computers are making people easier to use

  http://www.unorthodoxstyles.com

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Wistow]

Simon Cozens wrote:

> I've yet to hear a Labour MP talk eloquently about anything at all. Anyone
> ever talked - sorry, tried talking - to their MP about RIP?

Harriet Harman tried to tell me that I didn't really know about
computers or the Internet.

Personally I don't believe a word anybody says about anything let alone
politicians, I just thought it was a good talking point and interesting
that the Conservatives seem to be actively persuing the techno-savvy.

Re: Election Manifestos

[Jonathan Peterson]

At 16:02 22/05/01 +0100, you wrote:

>the Tory's want to repeal IR35, make RIPA less strict and speed up Local
>Loop unbundling, whereas Labour want to introduce laws meaning that if
>you pretend to be a teenager on the Net you can be jailed for 5 years
>(bad luck bK).

They are politicians. They lie. Although the move to prevent people pretending to be 
teenagers I find particularly amusing (for dark values of amusing).

Let's face it, no-one is very interested in civil rights these days, and especially 
not on the Internet. 


>This is not an invitation for a flame war, it all got said, done and
>^

Pull the other one! :-)

 

Jonathan Peterson
Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Election Manifestos

[Robin Szemeti]

On Tue, 22 May 2001, Simon Wistow wrote:
> According to the Register ...
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/19112.html
> 
> the Tory's want to repeal IR35, make RIPA less strict and speed up Local
> Loop unbundling, whereas Labour want to introduce laws meaning that if
> you pretend to be a teenager on the Net you can be jailed for 5 years
> (bad luck bK).

hmmm .. I was tempted just to let it pass .. but I can't resist ;)

What you need to remember is this : They will say ANYTHING to get your
vote .. ANYTHING.  Remember the U turn Labour did over key escrow as soon
as they won the election? ... do you really believe that the
Conservatives are any different? ..

They are all lying gits who would happily tell you black was white if
they thought it would make you vote for em.  thank goodness for
proportioanl representation, it should make the next parliament a lot
more representative of what people actually want, ratehr than a choice
between 2 (and a half ) evils.

> Being that most of the people here seem to be more Left than right
> (especially the contarctors) how do you lot feel about this.

the immediate feeling I get is to rent some cellars at the houses of
parliament  and invest in a number of big barrels of gunpowder .. oh hang
on that ones been done before and had a distinctly negative outcome .. OK
.. perhaps someting more subtle then ;)

-- 
Robin Szemeti   

Redpoint Consulting Limited
Real Solutions For A Virtual World 

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 04:16:16PM +0100, Chris Heathcote wrote:
> From air-conditioned tubes, thru to RIPA, to cheap petrol, it's
> bandwagon-jumping.

Ah, congratulations! You seem to have been completely politically
brainwashed; it's become so de rigeur for parties to completely
disregard the will of the people that when one actually even *claims* to
be concerned about matters that people will get up and shout about,
they're immediately decried.

It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it: Labour is interested in
what concerns the people; the LibDems are true democrats; the Tories are
jumping on bandwagons.

Not that I'm accusing anyone of hypocracy, of course.

Perhaps bandwagon-jumping is in fact the essence of democracy.

> I have yet to see a Conservative talk eloquently and knowledgably about the
> subjects they're making promises on. 

I've yet to hear a Labour MP talk eloquently about anything at all. Anyone
ever talked - sorry, tried talking - to their MP about RIP?

> Which is fucking scary.

This is even scarier, since, under Rule One, they're probably going to get
elected again.

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Re: Election Manifestos

[Chris Heathcote]

on 22/5/01 4:02 pm, Simon Wistow wrote:

> the Tory's want to repeal IR35, make RIPA less strict and speed up Local
> Loop unbundling, whereas Labour want to introduce laws meaning that if
> you pretend to be a teenager on the Net you can be jailed for 5 years
> (bad luck bK).

It seems that every promise in the Tory manifesto is based on hearsay and
rumour about things that people don't like at the moment. From
air-conditioned tubes, thru to RIPA, to cheap petrol, it's
bandwagon-jumping. Even if you agree with some, it's unlikely you'll agree
with a majority.

I have yet to see a Conservative talk eloquently and knowledgably about the
subjects they're making promises on. Which is fucking scary. You sort of
have to admire their bravado though, in some ghoulish way.

c.
-- 
 every day, computers are making people easier to use

  http://www.unorthodoxstyles.com

Re: Election Manifestos

[Roger Burton West]

On or about Tue, May 22, 2001 at 04:02:33PM +0100, Simon Wistow typed:
>According to the Register ...
>
>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/19112.html
>
>the Tory's want to repeal IR35, make RIPA less strict and speed up Local
>Loop unbundling, whereas Labour want to introduce laws meaning that if
>you pretend to be a teenager on the Net you can be jailed for 5 years
>(bad luck bK).
>
>Being that most of the people here seem to be more Left than right
>(especially the contarctors) how do you lot feel about this.

How about "don't believe a word of it, anything said between now
and the election is purely an attempt to woo gullible representatives
of special-interest groups"?

Labour don't care about actual competent net users (who will probably
vote for them anyway, they reckon, and by last week's experience they
may be right) but want to look as if they regard crime as a bad thing
(still fighting the 1980s council stories, really); the Conservatives
reckon that people who want politicians to do something about crime will
vote for them anyway, but that competent net users might be wooed.

Roger