Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Pure political genius.  Mortgage the yet unborn.  They can't complain from
the womb and the current crop of politicians will be gone before they can
vote.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Clay via Mercedes
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 7:45 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Clay 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

There is one shipper in AK that retrofit their fleet with massive LNG tanks.
They shuttle between WA and AK, as well as head out to HI in these boats.
It is the Green thing to do.  I wonder if they could swap over to H fuel at
a later date.

Euro rail is electric.  Not a small enough area to allow USA to do that.
Take too much copper, and the miscreants would be constantly ripping the
wires out.  

I was reading up on the energy disaster in UK this morning.  Big huzzahs for
the increase in plug in cars, while much rending of tunic over the increase
in home heating and electric costs.  Many energy companies went into
receivership when cost to get fuel outpaced revenues and customers got
tossed into another provider with jacked up pricing.  Elected leadership is
pondering giving away more money as well as reducing tax on energy in an
attempt to lower the curve of inflationary costs.  I tried to reconcile the
mass increase in energy cost (electric) with forcing plug in cars and
inability to provide power when consumers reduce NG use and increase plug in
heaters to balance their bills


Clay

> On Jan 6, 2022, at 11:56 AM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes
 wrote:
> 
> Thorium reactors and upgrade (and hardening) of the US electric grid would
be an answer. However, they don't produce byproducts used in nuclear
weapons, so there is no interest.
> 
> The elephant in the room is this. A barrel of oil produces 40-46%
gasoline, 25-28% diesel fuel, 10-12% jet A, and miscellaneous other stuff,
asphalt, ship fuel, etc.  If you eliminate the internal combustion
automobile that operates on gasoline, but do NOT eliminate diesel powered
semi tractor trailers, farm tractors, combines, diesel electric
locomotives*, cargo container ships, asphalt roads, and other stuff I don't
care to mention, there will be a glut of gasoline byproduct that will need
to be disposed of. This occured early in the pandemic, when trucks were on
the road, and cars weren't. Refineries were facing shut downs because of
lack of gasoline storage, and diesel was facing shortages. Crude oil was
negative for a while, because there was a lack of storage.
> 
> No one thinks this stuff through. Decisions and actions have consequences.
Electric cars make little sense for the majority. In urban areas, where
travel is limited to a few miles each way, sure. Visitors from other
countries are amazed at the wide open spaces in the heartland and out west.
In rural America they make no sense.
> 
> So unless you eliminate a good deal of the population, and colonize the
remainder of folks into urban areas, mass electrification of personal
transportation is __ (fill in the blank).
> 
> *Locomotives are a diesel electric hybrid.
> 
> 
> Rick

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

It isn't a fixed ratio.  After initial fractional distillation, the heavier 
distillates can be converted (commonly by hydrocracking) to produce more of the 
lighter distillates.  The process needs to be adjusted for the various types of 
incoming crude (e.g. light, heavy, sweet, sour).
-Original Message-

From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Allan Streib via Mercedes
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 4:13 PM

That breakdown of a barrel of oil is interesting. So how did we arrive at that 
perfect balance of what oil provides and what we do with it? Did we develop 
technology to use the oil products available, or did we develop refining 
techniques to produce the refined product the market wanted?

For example, before jet airplanes, where did the 10% Jet A component go?

When the railroads all switched from coal-fired steam to diesel-electric, how 
did we supply that increased demand for diesel fuel?


On Thu, Jan 6, 2022, at 3:56 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:
> Thorium reactors and upgrade (and hardening) of the US electric grid 
> would be an answer. However, they don't produce byproducts used in 
> nuclear weapons, so there is no interest.
>
> The elephant in the room is this. A barrel of oil produces 40-46% 
> gasoline, 25-28% diesel fuel, 10-12% jet A, and miscellaneous other 
> stuff, asphalt, ship fuel, etc.  If you eliminate the internal 
> combustion automobile that operates on gasoline, but do NOT eliminate 
> diesel powered semi tractor trailers, farm tractors, combines, diesel 
> electric locomotives*, cargo container ships, asphalt roads, and other 
> stuff I don't care to mention, there will be a glut of gasoline 
> byproduct that will need to be disposed of. This occured early in the 
> pandemic, when trucks were on the road, and cars weren't. Refineries 
> were facing shut downs because of lack of gasoline storage, and diesel 
> was facing shortages. Crude oil was negative for a while, because 
> there was a lack of storage.
>
> No one thinks this stuff through. Decisions and actions have 
> consequences. Electric cars make little sense for the majority. In 
> urban areas, where travel is limited to a few miles each way, sure.
> Visitors from other countries are amazed at the wide open spaces in 
> the heartland and out west. In rural America they make no sense.
>
> So unless you eliminate a good deal of the population, and colonize 
> the remainder of folks into urban areas, mass electrification of 
> personal transportation is __ (fill in the blank).
>
> *Locomotives are a diesel electric hybrid.
>
>
> Rick
>
> Hard times produce tough men.
>
> Tough men produce good times.
>
> Good times produce weak men.
>
> Weak men produce hard times. #
>
> # We are here.
>
> Hope This Helps.
>
>
> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Sent: January 6, 2022 2:07 PM
> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Cc: astrasfo...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>
> *Electric cars are niche vehicles for the rich based on the myth they 
> don't pollute.  Given state of the art of electrical power generation, 
> conversion, and transmission, electric vehicle operation pollutes less 
> (not
> none) only if the charging power is hydro.*
>
> Really?  I have a deposit on a modestly priced EV (Fisker Ocean), and 
> am not exactly rich.
>
> Obviously, if you build GHG emitting power plants to satisfy the 
> demand for charging EVs that would be a detriment, but no one is suggesting 
> that.
> Solar and wind are steadily supplanting fossil fuel generating sources 
> of baseload electricity, and nuclear may yet enjoy a renaissance (but 
> don't hold your breath).  And to be fair, conventional ICE cars have 
> comparable or greater impacts than EVs in terms of building and 
> recycling costs while polluting the air and warming the planet.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 2:38 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes < 
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>> Exactly.  Electric cars are niche vehicles for the rich based on the 
>> myth they don't pollute.  Given state of the art of electrical power 
>> generation, conversion, and transmission, electric vehicle operation 
>> pollutes less (not
>> none) only if the charging power is hydro.  And that doesn't account 
>> for pollution from building and recycling.
>>
>> The electric vehicle craze is what you get when art-history majors 
>> make decisions for brain-dead politicians.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of G Mann via Mercedes
>> Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 8:58 AM
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>> Cc: G Mann 
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>>
>>

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Clay via Mercedes]

I used to work along the tracks by the Amtrak office.  There were a number of 
trains sitting on side rails chugging away day and night with nobody onboard.  
Upon occasion one would be sitting and not running.  It was entertaining when 
they tried to light it off.  Always a summer event.  Massive Delta engines 
would sound as if somehow they used a howitzer shell to kickstart rotation.  
Must have had APU that slowly spun the shafts up, compressing air and injecting 
fuel and all the while this thing is farting like a mexican giant with belching 
black clouds out the stack until it would light, but still had the shaking and 
belch/fart staccato for five minutes until the engine was warmed up.  Then it 
sat puffing/purring along for a few days.  At least I thought it was the same 
engine/train when I showed up to work the next day.


Clay



> On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:56 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Jet A is very nearly kerosene which is similar to diesel fuel 
> anyway.Locomotives use bunker fuel, like big ships do.When I was just out of 
> high school I worked land surveying along the railroad between Boston and 
> Portland, Maine. I noticed that the locos stayed running all the time. I 
> asked once if the loco got shut down and completely cooled down how long it 
> would take to get it running again. The answer was "It'd start again in May" 
> this was in November...
> -Curt

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Jet A is very nearly kerosene which is similar to diesel fuel 
anyway.Locomotives use bunker fuel, like big ships do.When I was just out of 
high school I worked land surveying along the railroad between Boston and 
Portland, Maine. I noticed that the locos stayed running all the time. I asked 
once if the loco got shut down and completely cooled down how long it would 
take to get it running again. The answer was "It'd start again in May" this was 
in November...
-Curt

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 04:14:38 PM EST, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 That breakdown of a barrel of oil is interesting. So how did we arrive at that 
perfect balance of what oil provides and what we do with it? Did we develop 
technology to use the oil products available, or did we develop refining 
techniques to produce the refined product the market wanted?

For example, before jet airplanes, where did the 10% Jet A component go?

When the railroads all switched from coal-fired steam to diesel-electric, how 
did we supply that increased demand for diesel fuel?


On Thu, Jan 6, 2022, at 3:56 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:
> Thorium reactors and upgrade (and hardening) of the US electric grid 
> would be an answer. However, they don't produce byproducts used in 
> nuclear weapons, so there is no interest.
>
> The elephant in the room is this. A barrel of oil produces 40-46% 
> gasoline, 25-28% diesel fuel, 10-12% jet A, and miscellaneous other 
> stuff, asphalt, ship fuel, etc.  If you eliminate the internal 
> combustion automobile that operates on gasoline, but do NOT eliminate 
> diesel powered semi tractor trailers, farm tractors, combines, diesel 
> electric locomotives*, cargo container ships, asphalt roads, and other 
> stuff I don't care to mention, there will be a glut of gasoline 
> byproduct that will need to be disposed of. This occured early in the 
> pandemic, when trucks were on the road, and cars weren't. Refineries 
> were facing shut downs because of lack of gasoline storage, and diesel 
> was facing shortages. Crude oil was negative for a while, because there 
> was a lack of storage.
>
> No one thinks this stuff through. Decisions and actions have 
> consequences. Electric cars make little sense for the majority. In 
> urban areas, where travel is limited to a few miles each way, sure. 
> Visitors from other countries are amazed at the wide open spaces in the 
> heartland and out west. In rural America they make no sense.
>
> So unless you eliminate a good deal of the population, and colonize the 
> remainder of folks into urban areas, mass electrification of personal 
> transportation is __ (fill in the blank).
>
> *Locomotives are a diesel electric hybrid.
>
>
> Rick
>
> Hard times produce tough men.
>
> Tough men produce good times.
>
> Good times produce weak men.
>
> Weak men produce hard times. #
>
> # We are here.
>
> Hope This Helps.
>
>
> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Sent: January 6, 2022 2:07 PM
> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Cc: astrasfo...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>
> *Electric cars are niche vehicles for the rich based on the myth they don't
> pollute.  Given state of the art of electrical power generation,
> conversion, and transmission, electric vehicle operation pollutes less (not
> none) only if the charging power is hydro.*
>
> Really?  I have a deposit on a modestly priced EV (Fisker Ocean), and am
> not exactly rich.
>
> Obviously, if you build GHG emitting power plants to satisfy the demand for
> charging EVs that would be a detriment, but no one is suggesting that.
> Solar and wind are steadily supplanting fossil fuel generating sources of
> baseload electricity, and nuclear may yet enjoy a renaissance (but don't
> hold your breath).  And to be fair, conventional ICE cars have comparable
> or greater impacts than EVs in terms of building and recycling costs while
> polluting the air and warming the planet.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 2:38 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>> Exactly.  Electric cars are niche vehicles for the rich based on the myth
>> they don't pollute.  Given state of the art of electrical power generation,
>> conversion, and transmission, electric vehicle operation pollutes less (not
>> none) only if the charging power is hydro.  And that doesn't account for
>> pollution from building and recycling.
>>
>> The electric vehicle craze is what you get when art-history majors make
>> decisions for brain-dead politicians.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of G Mann via Mercedes
>> Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 8:58 AM

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Clay via Mercedes]

I seem to recall that Standard Oil needed to find a use for all the left over 
product after making the main product Kerosene back in the day.   IIRC that led 
to the battle over what would fuel the automobiles of the future where steam 
and batteries lost to petrol.

Clay


> On Jan 6, 2022, at 12:13 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> That breakdown of a barrel of oil is interesting. So how did we arrive at 
> that perfect balance of what oil provides and what we do with it? Did we 
> develop technology to use the oil products available, or did we develop 
> refining techniques to produce the refined product the market wanted?
> 
> For example, before jet airplanes, where did the 10% Jet A component go?
> 
> When the railroads all switched from coal-fired steam to diesel-electric, how 
> did we supply that increased demand for diesel fuel?


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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Clay via Mercedes]

There is one shipper in AK that retrofit their fleet with massive LNG tanks.  
They shuttle between WA and AK, as well as head out to HI in these boats.  It 
is the Green thing to do.  I wonder if they could swap over to H fuel at a 
later date.

Euro rail is electric.  Not a small enough area to allow USA to do that.  Take 
too much copper, and the miscreants would be constantly ripping the wires out.  

I was reading up on the energy disaster in UK this morning.  Big huzzahs for 
the increase in plug in cars, while much rending of tunic over the increase in 
home heating and electric costs.  Many energy companies went into receivership 
when cost to get fuel outpaced revenues and customers got tossed into another 
provider with jacked up pricing.  Elected leadership is pondering giving away 
more money as well as reducing tax on energy in an attempt to lower the curve 
of inflationary costs.  I tried to reconcile the mass increase in energy cost 
(electric) with forcing plug in cars and inability to provide power when 
consumers reduce NG use and increase plug in heaters to balance their bills


Clay

> On Jan 6, 2022, at 11:56 AM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Thorium reactors and upgrade (and hardening) of the US electric grid would be 
> an answer. However, they don't produce byproducts used in nuclear weapons, so 
> there is no interest.
> 
> The elephant in the room is this. A barrel of oil produces 40-46% gasoline, 
> 25-28% diesel fuel, 10-12% jet A, and miscellaneous other stuff, asphalt, 
> ship fuel, etc.  If you eliminate the internal combustion automobile that 
> operates on gasoline, but do NOT eliminate diesel powered semi tractor 
> trailers, farm tractors, combines, diesel electric locomotives*, cargo 
> container ships, asphalt roads, and other stuff I don't care to mention, 
> there will be a glut of gasoline byproduct that will need to be disposed of. 
> This occured early in the pandemic, when trucks were on the road, and cars 
> weren't. Refineries were facing shut downs because of lack of gasoline 
> storage, and diesel was facing shortages. Crude oil was negative for a while, 
> because there was a lack of storage.
> 
> No one thinks this stuff through. Decisions and actions have consequences. 
> Electric cars make little sense for the majority. In urban areas, where 
> travel is limited to a few miles each way, sure. Visitors from other 
> countries are amazed at the wide open spaces in the heartland and out west. 
> In rural America they make no sense.
> 
> So unless you eliminate a good deal of the population, and colonize the 
> remainder of folks into urban areas, mass electrification of personal 
> transportation is __ (fill in the blank).
> 
> *Locomotives are a diesel electric hybrid.
> 
> 
> Rick

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

The 'refineries' have ability to make one compound out of another that 
they didn't have 100 years ago, IIRC it's mostly cracking the heavy 
stuff down into gasoline fractions.


To answer your question, I believe the jet fuel used to go into kerosene 
lamps and heaters.

Mitch.

On 2022-01-06 16:13, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:

That breakdown of a barrel of oil is interesting. So how did we arrive
at that perfect balance of what oil provides and what we do with it?
Did we develop technology to use the oil products available, or did we
develop refining techniques to produce the refined product the market
wanted?

For example, before jet airplanes, where did the 10% Jet A component 
go?




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To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

That breakdown of a barrel of oil is interesting. So how did we arrive at that 
perfect balance of what oil provides and what we do with it? Did we develop 
technology to use the oil products available, or did we develop refining 
techniques to produce the refined product the market wanted?

For example, before jet airplanes, where did the 10% Jet A component go?

When the railroads all switched from coal-fired steam to diesel-electric, how 
did we supply that increased demand for diesel fuel?


On Thu, Jan 6, 2022, at 3:56 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:
> Thorium reactors and upgrade (and hardening) of the US electric grid 
> would be an answer. However, they don't produce byproducts used in 
> nuclear weapons, so there is no interest.
>
> The elephant in the room is this. A barrel of oil produces 40-46% 
> gasoline, 25-28% diesel fuel, 10-12% jet A, and miscellaneous other 
> stuff, asphalt, ship fuel, etc.  If you eliminate the internal 
> combustion automobile that operates on gasoline, but do NOT eliminate 
> diesel powered semi tractor trailers, farm tractors, combines, diesel 
> electric locomotives*, cargo container ships, asphalt roads, and other 
> stuff I don't care to mention, there will be a glut of gasoline 
> byproduct that will need to be disposed of. This occured early in the 
> pandemic, when trucks were on the road, and cars weren't. Refineries 
> were facing shut downs because of lack of gasoline storage, and diesel 
> was facing shortages. Crude oil was negative for a while, because there 
> was a lack of storage.
>
> No one thinks this stuff through. Decisions and actions have 
> consequences. Electric cars make little sense for the majority. In 
> urban areas, where travel is limited to a few miles each way, sure. 
> Visitors from other countries are amazed at the wide open spaces in the 
> heartland and out west. In rural America they make no sense.
>
> So unless you eliminate a good deal of the population, and colonize the 
> remainder of folks into urban areas, mass electrification of personal 
> transportation is __ (fill in the blank).
>
> *Locomotives are a diesel electric hybrid.
>
>
> Rick
>
> Hard times produce tough men.
>
> Tough men produce good times.
>
> Good times produce weak men.
>
> Weak men produce hard times. #
>
> # We are here.
>
> Hope This Helps.
>
>
> From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Sent: January 6, 2022 2:07 PM
> To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Cc: astrasfo...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>
> *Electric cars are niche vehicles for the rich based on the myth they don't
> pollute.  Given state of the art of electrical power generation,
> conversion, and transmission, electric vehicle operation pollutes less (not
> none) only if the charging power is hydro.*
>
> Really?  I have a deposit on a modestly priced EV (Fisker Ocean), and am
> not exactly rich.
>
> Obviously, if you build GHG emitting power plants to satisfy the demand for
> charging EVs that would be a detriment, but no one is suggesting that.
> Solar and wind are steadily supplanting fossil fuel generating sources of
> baseload electricity, and nuclear may yet enjoy a renaissance (but don't
> hold your breath).  And to be fair, conventional ICE cars have comparable
> or greater impacts than EVs in terms of building and recycling costs while
> polluting the air and warming the planet.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 2:38 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>> Exactly.  Electric cars are niche vehicles for the rich based on the myth
>> they don't pollute.  Given state of the art of electrical power generation,
>> conversion, and transmission, electric vehicle operation pollutes less (not
>> none) only if the charging power is hydro.  And that doesn't account for
>> pollution from building and recycling.
>>
>> The electric vehicle craze is what you get when art-history majors make
>> decisions for brain-dead politicians.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of G Mann via Mercedes
>> Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 8:58 AM
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>> Cc: G Mann 
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>>
>> In the real world, cold weather sucks the life out of battery reserves.
>> So, at wind chill minus 30, range would be much less... then, how do you
>> heat the car so you can stand to drive and survive... stuck in a snowbank
>> for a couple days with no recharge [real world that happens] you become a
>> well preserved frozen artifact not found until the spring thaw, maybe.
>> The electric car has reality probl

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Thorium reactors and upgrade (and hardening) of the US electric grid would be 
an answer. However, they don't produce byproducts used in nuclear weapons, so 
there is no interest.

The elephant in the room is this. A barrel of oil produces 40-46% gasoline, 
25-28% diesel fuel, 10-12% jet A, and miscellaneous other stuff, asphalt, ship 
fuel, etc.  If you eliminate the internal combustion automobile that operates 
on gasoline, but do NOT eliminate diesel powered semi tractor trailers, farm 
tractors, combines, diesel electric locomotives*, cargo container ships, 
asphalt roads, and other stuff I don't care to mention, there will be a glut of 
gasoline byproduct that will need to be disposed of. This occured early in the 
pandemic, when trucks were on the road, and cars weren't. Refineries were 
facing shut downs because of lack of gasoline storage, and diesel was facing 
shortages. Crude oil was negative for a while, because there was a lack of 
storage.

No one thinks this stuff through. Decisions and actions have consequences. 
Electric cars make little sense for the majority. In urban areas, where travel 
is limited to a few miles each way, sure. Visitors from other countries are 
amazed at the wide open spaces in the heartland and out west. In rural America 
they make no sense.

So unless you eliminate a good deal of the population, and colonize the 
remainder of folks into urban areas, mass electrification of personal 
transportation is __ (fill in the blank).

*Locomotives are a diesel electric hybrid.


Rick

Hard times produce tough men.

Tough men produce good times.

Good times produce weak men.

Weak men produce hard times. #

# We are here.

Hope This Helps.


From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: January 6, 2022 2:07 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: astrasfo...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

*Electric cars are niche vehicles for the rich based on the myth they don't
pollute.  Given state of the art of electrical power generation,
conversion, and transmission, electric vehicle operation pollutes less (not
none) only if the charging power is hydro.*

Really?  I have a deposit on a modestly priced EV (Fisker Ocean), and am
not exactly rich.

Obviously, if you build GHG emitting power plants to satisfy the demand for
charging EVs that would be a detriment, but no one is suggesting that.
Solar and wind are steadily supplanting fossil fuel generating sources of
baseload electricity, and nuclear may yet enjoy a renaissance (but don't
hold your breath).  And to be fair, conventional ICE cars have comparable
or greater impacts than EVs in terms of building and recycling costs while
polluting the air and warming the planet.



On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 2:38 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Exactly.  Electric cars are niche vehicles for the rich based on the myth
> they don't pollute.  Given state of the art of electrical power generation,
> conversion, and transmission, electric vehicle operation pollutes less (not
> none) only if the charging power is hydro.  And that doesn't account for
> pollution from building and recycling.
>
> The electric vehicle craze is what you get when art-history majors make
> decisions for brain-dead politicians.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of G Mann via Mercedes
> Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 8:58 AM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: G Mann 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>
> In the real world, cold weather sucks the life out of battery reserves.
> So, at wind chill minus 30, range would be much less... then, how do you
> heat the car so you can stand to drive and survive... stuck in a snowbank
> for a couple days with no recharge [real world that happens] you become a
> well preserved frozen artifact not found until the spring thaw, maybe.
> The electric car has reality problems that have not been overcome. I will
> keep driving Diesels for now.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:23 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > If it really has a 620 mile range (assume real-world ~500) that would
> > be quite welcome. Not a fan of the wide screen and other gizmos. Give
> > me a car with that range, basic gauges on the dash, a manual climate
> > control system, real switches for the headlights, wipers, and other
> > accessories, and I might be interested.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, at 9:08 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > > MB Tex was the distant ancestor of vegan upholstery.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:44 PM Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes <
> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Wasn’t that called “MBTex”?
> > >>
> > >> --FT
> > &

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

*Electric cars are niche vehicles for the rich based on the myth they don't
pollute.  Given state of the art of electrical power generation,
conversion, and transmission, electric vehicle operation pollutes less (not
none) only if the charging power is hydro.*

Really?  I have a deposit on a modestly priced EV (Fisker Ocean), and am
not exactly rich.

Obviously, if you build GHG emitting power plants to satisfy the demand for
charging EVs that would be a detriment, but no one is suggesting that.
Solar and wind are steadily supplanting fossil fuel generating sources of
baseload electricity, and nuclear may yet enjoy a renaissance (but don't
hold your breath).  And to be fair, conventional ICE cars have comparable
or greater impacts than EVs in terms of building and recycling costs while
polluting the air and warming the planet.



On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 2:38 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Exactly.  Electric cars are niche vehicles for the rich based on the myth
> they don't pollute.  Given state of the art of electrical power generation,
> conversion, and transmission, electric vehicle operation pollutes less (not
> none) only if the charging power is hydro.  And that doesn't account for
> pollution from building and recycling.
>
> The electric vehicle craze is what you get when art-history majors make
> decisions for brain-dead politicians.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of G Mann via Mercedes
> Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 8:58 AM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: G Mann 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>
> In the real world, cold weather sucks the life out of battery reserves.
> So, at wind chill minus 30, range would be much less... then, how do you
> heat the car so you can stand to drive and survive... stuck in a snowbank
> for a couple days with no recharge [real world that happens] you become a
> well preserved frozen artifact not found until the spring thaw, maybe.
> The electric car has reality problems that have not been overcome. I will
> keep driving Diesels for now.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:23 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > If it really has a 620 mile range (assume real-world ~500) that would
> > be quite welcome. Not a fan of the wide screen and other gizmos. Give
> > me a car with that range, basic gauges on the dash, a manual climate
> > control system, real switches for the headlights, wipers, and other
> > accessories, and I might be interested.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, at 9:08 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > > MB Tex was the distant ancestor of vegan upholstery.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:44 PM Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes <
> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Wasn’t that called “MBTex”?
> > >>
> > >> --FT
> > >> Sent from iFōn
> > >>
> > >> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> > >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Fisker uses vegan leather too.
> > >> >
> > >> >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 7:02 PM Clay via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Clay
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com
> > >> >
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> > https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-
> > concept-revealed/
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> --
> > >> >>> OK Don
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is
> > >> >>> time
> > to
> > >> >>> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am
> > doing.”
> > >> >> Wernher
> > >> >>> Von Braun
> > >> >>> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> > >> >>> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> > >> >>> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> ___
> > 

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Exactly.  Electric cars are niche vehicles for the rich based on the myth they 
don't pollute.  Given state of the art of electrical power generation, 
conversion, and transmission, electric vehicle operation pollutes less (not 
none) only if the charging power is hydro.  And that doesn't account for 
pollution from building and recycling.

The electric vehicle craze is what you get when art-history majors make 
decisions for brain-dead politicians.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of G Mann via Mercedes
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 8:58 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: G Mann 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

In the real world, cold weather sucks the life out of battery reserves. So, at 
wind chill minus 30, range would be much less... then, how do you heat the car 
so you can stand to drive and survive... stuck in a snowbank for a couple days 
with no recharge [real world that happens] you become a well preserved frozen 
artifact not found until the spring thaw, maybe.
The electric car has reality problems that have not been overcome. I will keep 
driving Diesels for now.


On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:23 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes < 
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> If it really has a 620 mile range (assume real-world ~500) that would 
> be quite welcome. Not a fan of the wide screen and other gizmos. Give 
> me a car with that range, basic gauges on the dash, a manual climate 
> control system, real switches for the headlights, wipers, and other 
> accessories, and I might be interested.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, at 9:08 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > MB Tex was the distant ancestor of vegan upholstery.
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:44 PM Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes < 
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Wasn’t that called “MBTex”?
> >>
> >> --FT
> >> Sent from iFōn
> >>
> >> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Fisker uses vegan leather too.
> >> >
> >> >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 7:02 PM Clay via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather
> >> >>
> >> >> Clay
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com
> >> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >>
> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-
> concept-revealed/
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> OK Don
> >> >>>
> >> >>> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is 
> >> >>> time
> to
> >> >>> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
> >> >>>
> >> >>> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am
> doing.”
> >> >> Wernher
> >> >>> Von Braun
> >> >>> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> >> >>> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> >> >>> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> >> >>
> >> >> ___
> >> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >> >>
> >> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >> >>
> >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > ___
> >> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >> >
> >> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >> >
> >> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >> >
> >>
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>
> >>
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

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To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com



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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

During my time as a Congressional Fellow I staffed a hearing on Hot Dry
Rock geothermal energy.  Has great promise but not yet commercial.
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/ba/pba/pdfs/geo_hotdry_rock.pdf

On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:19 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>  I expect it depends on how high the ground water is, I've seen some that
> have 400' drops. I've also seen them talk about horizontal loops 10 feet
> down but as our frost line is 6 feet I'd imagine we'd want horizontal loops
> to be deeper than that.
> -Curt
>
> On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 12:05:32 PM EST, dan penoff.com via
> Mercedes  wrote:
>
>  I think our loops were supposed to go down 60 feet or so if I recall
> correctly.
>
> -D
>
> On Jan 6, 2022, at 9:21 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
>
> 
> I don't know how far down we'll have to go for rock, the top couple feet
> are soft soil anyway...
>
> -Curt
>
> On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 11:07:14 AM EST, dan penoff.com <
> d...@penoff.com> wrote:
>
>
> Based on the geology of where you live I’m guessing a lot of the cost is
> in the boreholes for the loops. Drilling through rock versus clay and soil
> (Indiana) is a big difference.
>
> -D
>
> On Jan 6, 2022, at 8:23 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
>
> 
> Whoa, I've been considering it for here and the estimate is $35k although
> we have a very small house (900sqft) so it'll probably be cheaper. Plus I
> want to hook it into our existing hydronic setup. I have no interest in hot
> air...
>
> We spend about $1600/yr on oil which isn't getting any cheaper.
>
> -Curt
>
> On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 10:17:34 AM EST, dan penoff.com via
> Mercedes  wrote:
>
>
> We seriously considered geothermal for the massif we owned in Indiana.
> This would have been 2010, but for a 4,000 SF two story house the total
> would have been around $14,000, less Federal and State incentives bringing
> our out the door cost of around $10,000-$11,000 as I recall. Average
> monthly bill regardless of season was estimated at under $100.
>
> Also, in Indiana the state gave you a cut on your property taxes for
> installing geothermal. It wasn’t a substantial amount, but hey, like Geddy
> Lee says, “10 bucks is 10 bucks.”
>
> -D
>
> > On Jan 6, 2022, at 6:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> >
> > What was the install cost for your geothermal system?  This would work
> > great in the mid-Atlantic but has never really caught on.  How much
> acreage
> > did you need?
> >
> >> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:02 AM OK Don via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dan, I've lived with heat pumps since 1979 - the earlier ones had
> resistive
> >> backup heat that did come on below freezing. This new one doesn't have
> any
> >> resistive elements. In our main house, we have geothermal, and
> >> occasionally the resistive elements would fire up, but I've pulled the
> >> cut-off on them so we just have the geothermal now and it's been just
> fine,
> >> even below 0F last winter.
> >> No, they don't blow hot air, and the warm air does blow more than a hot
> air
> >> system would, but it's not a problem, at least for us. YMMV.
> >> The new mini-split is in the 700 sq ft "guest house" where my wife is
> now
> >> growing veggies all year round -and it replaced a couple of window units
> >> (one was a heat pump) and some electric space heaters. The electric use
> is
> >> about a third of what it was last year. When we installed the
> geothermal in
> >> the big house, our total energy cost was cut in half.
> >> We're very happy with both of them.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 8:59 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
> >> mercedes@okiebenz.com<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Don, is the outlet air temperature decent? That's one thing that a lot
> of
> >>> people don't get used to if they've experienced gas or electric forced
> >> air
> >>> - the outlet temps are generally quite a bit higher than what a heat
> pump
> >>> puts out.
> >>>
> >>> I'm curious about this as I don't want to put something in the casita
> >> that
> >>> won't perform.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks!
> >>>
> >>> -D
> >>> 
> >>> From: Mercedes  mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com>

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

There are other ways to do these things too.
One of the ladies that my wife worked with for years had a recently 
built house that used passive heat sources. It was super insulated and 
faced south. The windows were almost all in the south wall and those 
were large. It had clerestory windows that faced into a balcony on the 
2nd floor and dark coloured ceramic tile on all of the floors in the 
main living area and upper hallway. The sun through the windows warmed 
the floors which gave off heat in the night. Many years, she had not 
turned on the heat at Christmas time and her annual electric bills were 
minimal. This house was built probably 20 to 25 years ago so technology 
has not doubt advanced since then.


If you have enough land, you can do geothermal with trenches and 
horizontal piping. My aunt and uncle in NW Ontario (Dryden) had that 
system for years and it worked well.
If you live on a rural acreage with a pond, you can run the piping in 
the pond.


If you don't have much land, it is more problematic. We looked into it 
for our house in Winnipeg and we don't have enough land unless we had 
them drill deep and use fewer holes. That becomes more expensive as 
drilling deeper would require drilling into rock. It wouldn't be 
worthwhile for us. We got a new efficient furnace and our costs were 
halved from what we were paying for natural gas with our furnace from 
the 80's.


Randy


On 06/01/2022 9:16 AM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:

We seriously considered geothermal for the massif we owned in Indiana. This 
would have been 2010, but for a 4,000 SF two story house the total would have 
been around $14,000, less Federal and State incentives bringing our out the 
door cost of around $10,000-$11,000 as I recall. Average monthly bill 
regardless of season was estimated at under $100.

Also, in Indiana the state gave you a cut on your property taxes for installing 
geothermal. It wasn’t a substantial amount, but hey, like Geddy Lee says, “10 
bucks is 10 bucks.”

-D


On Jan 6, 2022, at 6:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 wrote:

What was the install cost for your geothermal system?  This would work
great in the mid-Atlantic but has never really caught on.  How much acreage
did you need?


On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:02 AM OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

Dan, I've lived with heat pumps since 1979 - the earlier ones had resistive
backup heat that did come on below freezing. This new one doesn't have any
resistive elements. In our main house, we have geothermal, and
occasionally the resistive elements would fire up, but I've pulled the
cut-off on them so we just have the geothermal now and it's been just fine,
even below 0F last winter.
No, they don't blow hot air, and the warm air does blow more than a hot air
system would, but it's not a problem, at least for us. YMMV.
The new mini-split is in the 700 sq ft "guest house" where my wife is now
growing veggies all year round -and it replaced a couple of window units
(one was a heat pump) and some electric space heaters. The electric use is
about a third of what it was last year. When we installed the geothermal in
the big house, our total energy cost was cut in half.
We're very happy with both of them.

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 8:59 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


Don, is the outlet air temperature decent? That's one thing that a lot of
people don't get used to if they've experienced gas or electric forced

air

- the outlet temps are generally quite a bit higher than what a heat pump
puts out.

I'm curious about this as I don't want to put something in the casita

that

won't perform.

Thanks!

-D

From: Mercedes  on behalf of OK Don via
Mercedes 
Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 9:34 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: OK Don 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

The Mitsubishi mini-split we had installed last year is rated for either

5

or 10F. It has been down to 15F so far, and it held the temp just fine.

The

temp is supposed to drop to 12F tonight - we'll see.It's also very quiet.

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:46 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


yes we just had one rated 4F installed in our church rectory.
the one we put in our house 15 years ago is rated 30F for heat

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 6:00 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My
insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down

to

4F

(-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature

coming

out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down

to

that ambient temperature.

I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas

wall

furnace that’s currently in there.

-D

Sent from my iPad


On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <

mercedes@okiebenz.com> 

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

You have to have one of those back bumper/trailer hitch racks with a 
good sized generator on it so that you can feed your battery.


Randy

On 06/01/2022 7:57 AM, G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

In the real world, cold weather sucks the life out of battery reserves. So,
at wind chill minus 30, range would be much less... then, how do you heat
the car so you can stand to drive and survive... stuck in a snowbank for a
couple days with no recharge [real world that happens] you become a well
preserved frozen artifact not found until the spring thaw, maybe.
The electric car has reality problems that have not been overcome. I will
keep driving Diesels for now.




___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I expect it depends on how high the ground water is, I've seen some that have 
400' drops. I've also seen them talk about horizontal loops 10 feet down but as 
our frost line is 6 feet I'd imagine we'd want horizontal loops to be deeper 
than that.
-Curt

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 12:05:32 PM EST, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 I think our loops were supposed to go down 60 feet or so if I recall correctly.

-D

On Jan 6, 2022, at 9:21 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:


I don't know how far down we'll have to go for rock, the top couple feet are 
soft soil anyway...

-Curt

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 11:07:14 AM EST, dan penoff.com  
wrote:


Based on the geology of where you live I’m guessing a lot of the cost is in the 
boreholes for the loops. Drilling through rock versus clay and soil (Indiana) 
is a big difference.

-D

On Jan 6, 2022, at 8:23 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:


Whoa, I've been considering it for here and the estimate is $35k although we 
have a very small house (900sqft) so it'll probably be cheaper. Plus I want to 
hook it into our existing hydronic setup. I have no interest in hot air...

We spend about $1600/yr on oil which isn't getting any cheaper.

-Curt

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 10:17:34 AM EST, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
 wrote:


We seriously considered geothermal for the massif we owned in Indiana. This 
would have been 2010, but for a 4,000 SF two story house the total would have 
been around $14,000, less Federal and State incentives bringing our out the 
door cost of around $10,000-$11,000 as I recall. Average monthly bill 
regardless of season was estimated at under $100.

Also, in Indiana the state gave you a cut on your property taxes for installing 
geothermal. It wasn’t a substantial amount, but hey, like Geddy Lee says, “10 
bucks is 10 bucks.”

-D

> On Jan 6, 2022, at 6:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>
> What was the install cost for your geothermal system?  This would work
> great in the mid-Atlantic but has never really caught on.  How much acreage
> did you need?
>
>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:02 AM OK Don via Mercedes 
>> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dan, I've lived with heat pumps since 1979 - the earlier ones had resistive
>> backup heat that did come on below freezing. This new one doesn't have any
>> resistive elements. In our main house, we have geothermal, and
>> occasionally the resistive elements would fire up, but I've pulled the
>> cut-off on them so we just have the geothermal now and it's been just fine,
>> even below 0F last winter.
>> No, they don't blow hot air, and the warm air does blow more than a hot air
>> system would, but it's not a problem, at least for us. YMMV.
>> The new mini-split is in the 700 sq ft "guest house" where my wife is now
>> growing veggies all year round -and it replaced a couple of window units
>> (one was a heat pump) and some electric space heaters. The electric use is
>> about a third of what it was last year. When we installed the geothermal in
>> the big house, our total energy cost was cut in half.
>> We're very happy with both of them.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 8:59 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> Don, is the outlet air temperature decent? That's one thing that a lot of
>>> people don't get used to if they've experienced gas or electric forced
>> air
>>> - the outlet temps are generally quite a bit higher than what a heat pump
>>> puts out.
>>>
>>> I'm curious about this as I don't want to put something in the casita
>> that
>>> won't perform.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> -D
>>> ____
>>> From: Mercedes 
>>> mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com>> on 
>>> behalf of OK Don via
>>> Mercedes mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 9:34 PM
>>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>>> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
>>> Cc: OK Don mailto:okd...@gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>>>
>>> The Mitsubishi mini-split we had installed last year is rated for either
>> 5
>>> or 10F. It has been down to 15F so far, and it held the temp just fine.
>> The
>>> temp is supposed to drop to 12F tonight - we'll see.It's also very quiet.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:46 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes <
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> yes we just had one r

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

I think our loops were supposed to go down 60 feet or so if I recall correctly.

-D

On Jan 6, 2022, at 9:21 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:


I don't know how far down we'll have to go for rock, the top couple feet are 
soft soil anyway...

-Curt

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 11:07:14 AM EST, dan penoff.com  
wrote:


Based on the geology of where you live I’m guessing a lot of the cost is in the 
boreholes for the loops. Drilling through rock versus clay and soil (Indiana) 
is a big difference.

-D

On Jan 6, 2022, at 8:23 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:


Whoa, I've been considering it for here and the estimate is $35k although we 
have a very small house (900sqft) so it'll probably be cheaper. Plus I want to 
hook it into our existing hydronic setup. I have no interest in hot air...

We spend about $1600/yr on oil which isn't getting any cheaper.

-Curt

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 10:17:34 AM EST, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
 wrote:


We seriously considered geothermal for the massif we owned in Indiana. This 
would have been 2010, but for a 4,000 SF two story house the total would have 
been around $14,000, less Federal and State incentives bringing our out the 
door cost of around $10,000-$11,000 as I recall. Average monthly bill 
regardless of season was estimated at under $100.

Also, in Indiana the state gave you a cut on your property taxes for installing 
geothermal. It wasn’t a substantial amount, but hey, like Geddy Lee says, “10 
bucks is 10 bucks.”

-D

> On Jan 6, 2022, at 6:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>
> What was the install cost for your geothermal system?  This would work
> great in the mid-Atlantic but has never really caught on.  How much acreage
> did you need?
>
>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:02 AM OK Don via Mercedes 
>> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dan, I've lived with heat pumps since 1979 - the earlier ones had resistive
>> backup heat that did come on below freezing. This new one doesn't have any
>> resistive elements. In our main house, we have geothermal, and
>> occasionally the resistive elements would fire up, but I've pulled the
>> cut-off on them so we just have the geothermal now and it's been just fine,
>> even below 0F last winter.
>> No, they don't blow hot air, and the warm air does blow more than a hot air
>> system would, but it's not a problem, at least for us. YMMV.
>> The new mini-split is in the 700 sq ft "guest house" where my wife is now
>> growing veggies all year round -and it replaced a couple of window units
>> (one was a heat pump) and some electric space heaters. The electric use is
>> about a third of what it was last year. When we installed the geothermal in
>> the big house, our total energy cost was cut in half.
>> We're very happy with both of them.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 8:59 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> Don, is the outlet air temperature decent? That's one thing that a lot of
>>> people don't get used to if they've experienced gas or electric forced
>> air
>>> - the outlet temps are generally quite a bit higher than what a heat pump
>>> puts out.
>>>
>>> I'm curious about this as I don't want to put something in the casita
>> that
>>> won't perform.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> -D
>>> ____
>>> From: Mercedes 
>>> mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com>> on 
>>> behalf of OK Don via
>>> Mercedes mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 9:34 PM
>>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>>> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
>>> Cc: OK Don mailto:okd...@gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>>>
>>> The Mitsubishi mini-split we had installed last year is rated for either
>> 5
>>> or 10F. It has been down to 15F so far, and it held the temp just fine.
>> The
>>> temp is supposed to drop to 12F tonight - we'll see.It's also very quiet.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:46 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes <
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> yes we just had one rated 4F installed in our church rectory.
>>>> the one we put in our house 15 years ago is rated 30F for heat
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 6:00 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
>>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Actually, the

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Whoa, I've been considering it for here and the estimate is $35k although we 
have a very small house (900sqft) so it'll probably be cheaper. Plus I want to 
hook it into our existing hydronic setup. I have no interest in hot air...

We spend about $1600/yr on oil which isn't getting any cheaper.
-Curt

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 10:17:34 AM EST, dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 We seriously considered geothermal for the massif we owned in Indiana. This 
would have been 2010, but for a 4,000 SF two story house the total would have 
been around $14,000, less Federal and State incentives bringing our out the 
door cost of around $10,000-$11,000 as I recall. Average monthly bill 
regardless of season was estimated at under $100.

Also, in Indiana the state gave you a cut on your property taxes for installing 
geothermal. It wasn’t a substantial amount, but hey, like Geddy Lee says, “10 
bucks is 10 bucks.”

-D

> On Jan 6, 2022, at 6:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> What was the install cost for your geothermal system?  This would work
> great in the mid-Atlantic but has never really caught on.  How much acreage
> did you need?
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:02 AM OK Don via Mercedes 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dan, I've lived with heat pumps since 1979 - the earlier ones had resistive
>> backup heat that did come on below freezing. This new one doesn't have any
>> resistive elements. In our main house, we have geothermal, and
>> occasionally the resistive elements would fire up, but I've pulled the
>> cut-off on them so we just have the geothermal now and it's been just fine,
>> even below 0F last winter.
>> No, they don't blow hot air, and the warm air does blow more than a hot air
>> system would, but it's not a problem, at least for us. YMMV.
>> The new mini-split is in the 700 sq ft "guest house" where my wife is now
>> growing veggies all year round -and it replaced a couple of window units
>> (one was a heat pump) and some electric space heaters. The electric use is
>> about a third of what it was last year. When we installed the geothermal in
>> the big house, our total energy cost was cut in half.
>> We're very happy with both of them.
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 8:59 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Don, is the outlet air temperature decent? That's one thing that a lot of
>>> people don't get used to if they've experienced gas or electric forced
>> air
>>> - the outlet temps are generally quite a bit higher than what a heat pump
>>> puts out.
>>> 
>>> I'm curious about this as I don't want to put something in the casita
>> that
>>> won't perform.
>>> 
>>> Thanks!
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> 
>>> From: Mercedes  on behalf of OK Don via
>>> Mercedes 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 9:34 PM
>>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>>> Cc: OK Don 
>>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>>> 
>>> The Mitsubishi mini-split we had installed last year is rated for either
>> 5
>>> or 10F. It has been down to 15F so far, and it held the temp just fine.
>> The
>>> temp is supposed to drop to 12F tonight - we'll see.It's also very quiet.
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:46 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes <
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> yes we just had one rated 4F installed in our church rectory.
>>>> the one we put in our house 15 years ago is rated 30F for heat
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 6:00 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
>>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My
>>>>> insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down
>>> to
>>>> 4F
>>>>> (-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature
>>>> coming
>>>>> out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down
>>> to
>>>>> that ambient temperature.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas
>>> wall
>>>>> furnace that’s currently in there.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -D
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
>>>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
&g

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

We seriously considered geothermal for the massif we owned in Indiana. This 
would have been 2010, but for a 4,000 SF two story house the total would have 
been around $14,000, less Federal and State incentives bringing our out the 
door cost of around $10,000-$11,000 as I recall. Average monthly bill 
regardless of season was estimated at under $100.

Also, in Indiana the state gave you a cut on your property taxes for installing 
geothermal. It wasn’t a substantial amount, but hey, like Geddy Lee says, “10 
bucks is 10 bucks.”

-D

> On Jan 6, 2022, at 6:41 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> What was the install cost for your geothermal system?  This would work
> great in the mid-Atlantic but has never really caught on.  How much acreage
> did you need?
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:02 AM OK Don via Mercedes 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dan, I've lived with heat pumps since 1979 - the earlier ones had resistive
>> backup heat that did come on below freezing. This new one doesn't have any
>> resistive elements. In our main house, we have geothermal, and
>> occasionally the resistive elements would fire up, but I've pulled the
>> cut-off on them so we just have the geothermal now and it's been just fine,
>> even below 0F last winter.
>> No, they don't blow hot air, and the warm air does blow more than a hot air
>> system would, but it's not a problem, at least for us. YMMV.
>> The new mini-split is in the 700 sq ft "guest house" where my wife is now
>> growing veggies all year round -and it replaced a couple of window units
>> (one was a heat pump) and some electric space heaters. The electric use is
>> about a third of what it was last year. When we installed the geothermal in
>> the big house, our total energy cost was cut in half.
>> We're very happy with both of them.
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 8:59 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Don, is the outlet air temperature decent? That's one thing that a lot of
>>> people don't get used to if they've experienced gas or electric forced
>> air
>>> - the outlet temps are generally quite a bit higher than what a heat pump
>>> puts out.
>>> 
>>> I'm curious about this as I don't want to put something in the casita
>> that
>>> won't perform.
>>> 
>>> Thanks!
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> 
>>> From: Mercedes  on behalf of OK Don via
>>> Mercedes 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 9:34 PM
>>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>>> Cc: OK Don 
>>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>>> 
>>> The Mitsubishi mini-split we had installed last year is rated for either
>> 5
>>> or 10F. It has been down to 15F so far, and it held the temp just fine.
>> The
>>> temp is supposed to drop to 12F tonight - we'll see.It's also very quiet.
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:46 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes <
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> yes we just had one rated 4F installed in our church rectory.
>>>> the one we put in our house 15 years ago is rated 30F for heat
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 6:00 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
>>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My
>>>>> insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down
>>> to
>>>> 4F
>>>>> (-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature
>>>> coming
>>>>> out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down
>>> to
>>>>> that ambient temperature.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas
>>> wall
>>>>> furnace that’s currently in there.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -D
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
>>>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in
>>>>> really cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for
>>>> days.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures.
>>> They
>>>>> are fine in spr

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[G Mann via Mercedes]

In the real world, cold weather sucks the life out of battery reserves. So,
at wind chill minus 30, range would be much less... then, how do you heat
the car so you can stand to drive and survive... stuck in a snowbank for a
couple days with no recharge [real world that happens] you become a well
preserved frozen artifact not found until the spring thaw, maybe.
The electric car has reality problems that have not been overcome. I will
keep driving Diesels for now.


On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:23 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> If it really has a 620 mile range (assume real-world ~500) that would be
> quite welcome. Not a fan of the wide screen and other gizmos. Give me a car
> with that range, basic gauges on the dash, a manual climate control system,
> real switches for the headlights, wipers, and other accessories, and I
> might be interested.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, at 9:08 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > MB Tex was the distant ancestor of vegan upholstery.
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:44 PM Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Wasn’t that called “MBTex”?
> >>
> >> --FT
> >> Sent from iFōn
> >>
> >> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Fisker uses vegan leather too.
> >> >
> >> >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 7:02 PM Clay via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather
> >> >>
> >> >> Clay
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com
> >> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >>
> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> OK Don
> >> >>>
> >> >>> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time
> to
> >> >>> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
> >> >>>
> >> >>> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am
> doing.”
> >> >> Wernher
> >> >>> Von Braun
> >> >>> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> >> >>> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> >> >>> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> >> >>
> >> >> ___
> >> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >> >>
> >> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >> >>
> >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > ___
> >> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >> >
> >> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >> >
> >> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >> >
> >>
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>
> >>
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

What was the install cost for your geothermal system?  This would work
great in the mid-Atlantic but has never really caught on.  How much acreage
did you need?

On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:02 AM OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Dan, I've lived with heat pumps since 1979 - the earlier ones had resistive
> backup heat that did come on below freezing. This new one doesn't have any
> resistive elements. In our main house, we have geothermal, and
> occasionally the resistive elements would fire up, but I've pulled the
> cut-off on them so we just have the geothermal now and it's been just fine,
> even below 0F last winter.
> No, they don't blow hot air, and the warm air does blow more than a hot air
> system would, but it's not a problem, at least for us. YMMV.
> The new mini-split is in the 700 sq ft "guest house" where my wife is now
> growing veggies all year round -and it replaced a couple of window units
> (one was a heat pump) and some electric space heaters. The electric use is
> about a third of what it was last year. When we installed the geothermal in
> the big house, our total energy cost was cut in half.
> We're very happy with both of them.
>
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 8:59 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Don, is the outlet air temperature decent? That's one thing that a lot of
> > people don't get used to if they've experienced gas or electric forced
> air
> > - the outlet temps are generally quite a bit higher than what a heat pump
> > puts out.
> >
> > I'm curious about this as I don't want to put something in the casita
> that
> > won't perform.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > -D
> > 
> > From: Mercedes  on behalf of OK Don via
> > Mercedes 
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 9:34 PM
> > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > Cc: OK Don 
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
> >
> > The Mitsubishi mini-split we had installed last year is rated for either
> 5
> > or 10F. It has been down to 15F so far, and it held the temp just fine.
> The
> > temp is supposed to drop to 12F tonight - we'll see.It's also very quiet.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:46 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > yes we just had one rated 4F installed in our church rectory.
> > >  the one we put in our house 15 years ago is rated 30F for heat
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 6:00 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My
> > > > insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down
> > to
> > > 4F
> > > > (-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature
> > > coming
> > > > out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down
> > to
> > > > that ambient temperature.
> > > >
> > > > I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas
> > wall
> > > > furnace that’s currently in there.
> > > >
> > > > -D
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > >
> > > > > On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> > > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in
> > > > really cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for
> > > days.
> > > > >
> > > > > Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures.
> > They
> > > > are fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon
> > > > electric heat built in to the heat pump system.
> > > > >
> > > > > Randy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
> > > > >> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in
> > > Virginia.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating,
> > > which
> > > > would be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system
> > which
> > > > should be more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold
> > > outside.
> > > > >>
> > > >

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Dan, I've lived with heat pumps since 1979 - the earlier ones had resistive
backup heat that did come on below freezing. This new one doesn't have any
resistive elements. In our main house, we have geothermal, and
occasionally the resistive elements would fire up, but I've pulled the
cut-off on them so we just have the geothermal now and it's been just fine,
even below 0F last winter.
No, they don't blow hot air, and the warm air does blow more than a hot air
system would, but it's not a problem, at least for us. YMMV.
The new mini-split is in the 700 sq ft "guest house" where my wife is now
growing veggies all year round -and it replaced a couple of window units
(one was a heat pump) and some electric space heaters. The electric use is
about a third of what it was last year. When we installed the geothermal in
the big house, our total energy cost was cut in half.
We're very happy with both of them.

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 8:59 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Don, is the outlet air temperature decent? That's one thing that a lot of
> people don't get used to if they've experienced gas or electric forced air
> - the outlet temps are generally quite a bit higher than what a heat pump
> puts out.
>
> I'm curious about this as I don't want to put something in the casita that
> won't perform.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -D
> 
> From: Mercedes  on behalf of OK Don via
> Mercedes 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 9:34 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: OK Don 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware
>
> The Mitsubishi mini-split we had installed last year is rated for either 5
> or 10F. It has been down to 15F so far, and it held the temp just fine. The
> temp is supposed to drop to 12F tonight - we'll see.It's also very quiet.
>
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:46 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > yes we just had one rated 4F installed in our church rectory.
> >  the one we put in our house 15 years ago is rated 30F for heat
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 6:00 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My
> > > insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down
> to
> > 4F
> > > (-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature
> > coming
> > > out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down
> to
> > > that ambient temperature.
> > >
> > > I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas
> wall
> > > furnace that’s currently in there.
> > >
> > > -D
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > > On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in
> > > really cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for
> > days.
> > > >
> > > > Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures.
> They
> > > are fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon
> > > electric heat built in to the heat pump system.
> > > >
> > > > Randy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
> > > >> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in
> > Virginia.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating,
> > which
> > > would be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system
> which
> > > should be more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold
> > outside.
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas
> > > would compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a
> > > "stranded in a blizzard" scenario.
> > > >>
> > > >> Allan
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > > >
> > > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > > >
> > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > > >
&

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Clay via Mercedes]

5-20 rings a bell.  It was changed past summer with generic tire shop goo that 
#2 boy handled since he was driving it 

Clay




> On Jan 5, 2022, at 6:48 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> OIL SAE viscosity?

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Clay via Mercedes]

I got off the phone with #1 boy in ND.  He was wanting advice on why the fob 
for the car was not allowing touch unlock and keyless start.  The separate auto 
start fob does its job fine.  He keeps his keys in the work truck at -28C today 
with -49C windchill.  I told him to keep his fob in his trouser pocket for the 
battery to be happier.  Or, just pop new battery in.  Being a sparky, he tells 
me there is just so much electrons and there should be  no fresh juice in them 
if they are dead.  This related to poking and stabbing the start button until 
he got the car to finally start.  


Clay


> On Jan 5, 2022, at 2:03 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I thought they might even work down to about -20C but we get colder than that 
> here in the GWN. It is -25C right now at 5:00 PM.
> The coldest that I have seen lately is about -33C but we sometimes exceed 
> that.
> 
> Randy

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Clay via Mercedes]

The cars live in the garage religiously.  I did point out things to make these 
more useful in GWN winters, but SWMBA poo-poos that kind of thing.  She does 
swap out tires for winter, but no winter oil or upgrades.  Heated seat and 
steering wheel are her idea of winter prep. I stopped talking about it after I 
figured out nobody was listening.


clay 

I have no pronouns please do not refer to me.



> On Jan 5, 2022, at 1:04 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes  > wrote:
> 
> Do you have block heaters in your vehicles? If not, get them installed. Not 
> expensive and if plugged in and kept warm, the vehicle will start. You can 
> also get battery blankets that are electric heaters to keep the battery warm.
> 
> Randy

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

OIL SAE viscosity?

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Clay via Mercedes
Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 4:04 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Clay 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

Temps this week hover around 0*F in ANC.  The carpet installers are using
the garage to prep so the cars are out on the street.  I tried to move one
that had sat overnight to put it in the driveway.  Maybe 30 hour cold soaked
and that poor battery was nearly incapable of spinning it over.  Like a no
glow start on an OM615.  Did get it lit off after a few tries and hooked it
to the charger once the engine was up to temp and battery warmed.  Tried to
move it this morning and it was not happy.  Maybe it wants a real winter
battery.



Clay

> On Jan 5, 2022, at 11:39 AM, Allan Streib via Mercedes
 wrote:
> 
> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in Virginia.
> 
> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating, which
would be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which
should be more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold outside.
> 
> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas would
compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a "stranded
in a blizzard" scenario.
> 
> Allan

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

As a former resident of hurricane alley (who had to evacuate more than once)
I think a person would be nuts to have an electric car unless he also had a
reliable gas/diesel vehicle.  

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of mitch--- via Mercedes
Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 4:16 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: mi...@mitchellhaley.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

You have blankets, a parka, and insulated boots in the trunk, right?
Mitch.

On 2022-01-05 15:39, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:

> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas 
> would compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in 
> a "stranded in a blizzard" scenario.
> 

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

The air coming out of the mini-split in my barn feels quite warm, especially 
compared to a normal central heat pump system.  But the moving air may still 
feel cool across the room.  Also, the mini-split air handler always needs some 
air flow (blower on low) to sense room temperature.

Something I didn't mention is the mini-split has a minimal air filter, just a 
screen.  Nothing like the pleated filters in large central units.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of dan penoff.com via Mercedes
Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 9:59 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: dan penoff.com 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

Don, is the outlet air temperature decent? That's one thing that a lot of 
people don't get used to if they've experienced gas or electric forced air - 
the outlet temps are generally quite a bit higher than what a heat pump puts 
out.

I'm curious about this as I don't want to put something in the casita that 
won't perform.

Thanks!

-D

From: Mercedes  on behalf of OK Don via Mercedes 

Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 9:34 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: OK Don 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

The Mitsubishi mini-split we had installed last year is rated for either 5 or 
10F. It has been down to 15F so far, and it held the temp just fine. The temp 
is supposed to drop to 12F tonight - we'll see.It's also very quiet.

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:46 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes < 
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> yes we just had one rated 4F installed in our church rectory.
>  the one we put in our house 15 years ago is rated 30F for heat
>
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 6:00 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes < 
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My 
> > insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good 
> > down to
> 4F
> > (-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature
> coming
> > out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat 
> > down to that ambient temperature.
> >
> > I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas 
> > wall furnace that’s currently in there.
> >
> > -D
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm 
> > > in
> > really cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for
> days.
> > >
> > > Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures. 
> > > They
> > are fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying 
> > upon electric heat built in to the heat pump system.
> > >
> > > Randy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
> > >> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in
> Virginia.
> > >>
> > >> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating,
> which
> > would be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system 
> > which should be more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* 
> > cold
> outside.
> > >>
> > >> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of 
> > >> gas
> > would compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia 
> > in a "stranded in a blizzard" scenario.
> > >>
> > >> Allan
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>

--
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause 
and reflect." Mark Twain

Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Mini splits have advantages, mainly no duct loss, multi-speed blowers, and 
variable speed (inverter-driven) compressors  for optimum refrigerant flow.  
Efficiency is not the right measure.  Resistance heating is 100% efficient (all 
watts become BTUs).  For heat pumps coefficient of performance (COP) a better 
metric.  COP=BTU-out/watts-in (in the same units, of course).  COP of 2-3+ is 
not unusual.  Metrics like SEER are like EPA mileage to estimate average the 
performance over an expected range of operating conditions.  Mini splits still 
have good winter efficiency at low temps, they just can't produce as much 
output heat.  As outside temp goes down heat loss goes up (requiring more BTU 
to stay warm) while heat pump output goes down, so it's a double whammy.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of dan penoff.com via Mercedes
Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 7:51 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: dan penoff.com 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

From what my insulation guys said, and they've been doing this in the Flagstaff 
area for some years, mini-splits have always performed better at low 
temperatures than the larger single home units. Apparently, it's something to 
do with the design. The big-name guys like Samsung have units that are as much 
as 95% efficient at low temperatures. Thats the big issue - efficiency. When 
it's only 70% efficient at those temperatures, it's becoming ineffective at 
pulling heat out of the ambient air.

-D

From: Mercedes  on behalf of Randy Bennell via 
Mercedes 
Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 6:03 PM
To: dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
Cc: Randy Bennell 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

I thought they might even work down to about -20C but we get colder than that 
here in the GWN. It is -25C right now at 5:00 PM.
The coldest that I have seen lately is about -33C but we sometimes exceed that.

Randy

On 05/01/2022 4:59 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
> Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My 
> insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down to 4F 
> (-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature coming 
> out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down to that 
> ambient temperature.
>
> I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas wall 
> furnace that’s currently in there.
>
> -D
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in really 
>> cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for days.
>>
>> Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures. They are 
>> fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon electric 
>> heat built in to the heat pump system.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
>>> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in Virginia.
>>>
>>> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating, which 
>>> would be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which 
>>> should be more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold outside.
>>>
>>> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas would 
>>> compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a "stranded 
>>> in a blizzard" scenario.
>>>
>>> Allan
>>>
>>>


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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Don, is the outlet air temperature decent? That's one thing that a lot of 
people don't get used to if they've experienced gas or electric forced air - 
the outlet temps are generally quite a bit higher than what a heat pump puts 
out.

I'm curious about this as I don't want to put something in the casita that 
won't perform.

Thanks!

-D

From: Mercedes  on behalf of OK Don via Mercedes 

Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 9:34 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: OK Don 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

The Mitsubishi mini-split we had installed last year is rated for either 5
or 10F. It has been down to 15F so far, and it held the temp just fine. The
temp is supposed to drop to 12F tonight - we'll see.It's also very quiet.

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:46 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> yes we just had one rated 4F installed in our church rectory.
>  the one we put in our house 15 years ago is rated 30F for heat
>
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 6:00 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My
> > insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down to
> 4F
> > (-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature
> coming
> > out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down to
> > that ambient temperature.
> >
> > I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas wall
> > furnace that’s currently in there.
> >
> > -D
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in
> > really cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for
> days.
> > >
> > > Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures. They
> > are fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon
> > electric heat built in to the heat pump system.
> > >
> > > Randy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
> > >> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in
> Virginia.
> > >>
> > >> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating,
> which
> > would be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which
> > should be more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold
> outside.
> > >>
> > >> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas
> > would compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a
> > "stranded in a blizzard" scenario.
> > >>
> > >> Allan
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>

--
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

“Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
Von Braun
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Dwight Giles via Mercedes]

good luck tonight

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 9:35 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> The Mitsubishi mini-split we had installed last year is rated for either 5
> or 10F. It has been down to 15F so far, and it held the temp just fine. The
> temp is supposed to drop to 12F tonight - we'll see.It's also very quiet.
>
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:46 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > yes we just had one rated 4F installed in our church rectory.
> >  the one we put in our house 15 years ago is rated 30F for heat
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 6:00 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My
> > > insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down
> to
> > 4F
> > > (-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature
> > coming
> > > out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down
> to
> > > that ambient temperature.
> > >
> > > I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas
> wall
> > > furnace that’s currently in there.
> > >
> > > -D
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > > On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> > > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in
> > > really cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for
> > days.
> > > >
> > > > Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures.
> They
> > > are fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon
> > > electric heat built in to the heat pump system.
> > > >
> > > > Randy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
> > > >> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in
> > Virginia.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating,
> > which
> > > would be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system
> which
> > > should be more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold
> > outside.
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas
> > > would compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a
> > > "stranded in a blizzard" scenario.
> > > >>
> > > >> Allan
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > > >
> > > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > > >
> > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > >
> > >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
>
> --
> OK Don
>
> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
>
> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”
> Wernher
> Von Braun
> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[OK Don via Mercedes]

The Mitsubishi mini-split we had installed last year is rated for either 5
or 10F. It has been down to 15F so far, and it held the temp just fine. The
temp is supposed to drop to 12F tonight - we'll see.It's also very quiet.

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:46 PM Dwight Giles via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> yes we just had one rated 4F installed in our church rectory.
>  the one we put in our house 15 years ago is rated 30F for heat
>
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 6:00 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My
> > insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down to
> 4F
> > (-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature
> coming
> > out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down to
> > that ambient temperature.
> >
> > I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas wall
> > furnace that’s currently in there.
> >
> > -D
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in
> > really cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for
> days.
> > >
> > > Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures. They
> > are fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon
> > electric heat built in to the heat pump system.
> > >
> > > Randy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
> > >> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in
> Virginia.
> > >>
> > >> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating,
> which
> > would be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which
> > should be more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold
> outside.
> > >>
> > >> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas
> > would compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a
> > "stranded in a blizzard" scenario.
> > >>
> > >> Allan
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>

-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

“Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
Von Braun
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Dwight Giles via Mercedes]

yes we just had one rated 4F installed in our church rectory.
 the one we put in our house 15 years ago is rated 30F for heat

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 6:00 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My
> insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down to 4F
> (-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature coming
> out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down to
> that ambient temperature.
>
> I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas wall
> furnace that’s currently in there.
>
> -D
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in
> really cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for days.
> >
> > Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures. They
> are fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon
> electric heat built in to the heat pump system.
> >
> > Randy
> >
> >
> >
> >> On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
> >> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in Virginia.
> >>
> >> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating, which
> would be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which
> should be more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold outside.
> >>
> >> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas
> would compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a
> "stranded in a blizzard" scenario.
> >>
> >> Allan
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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> >
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

I watched over lunch a jay leno vid of the EQS prototype or whatever it was. He 
was with the MB marketing director or whatever who was an inane ADHD 
marketing-bullshit-spewing twit. The review was quite superficial, mostly about 
the vid screens and various electronic functions (scents!) and aerodynamics 
(Cd=.20).  Nothing about the car’s handling, power, ride experience, etc. 

Jay mentioned a few times a 400mi range but it wasn’t clear if that was the 2 
or 4 motor version. And how real world factors would affect the range. 

The design was basically a wind tunnel jellybean exercise with some Benz 
graphics elements to indicate it was a Benz. The interior was nice as you would 
expect from an S, the 56” screens across the entire dash were the main selling 
point. The marketing dude was extremely excited about that. 

I’m sure it is an excellent highly-engineered car and will offer a great user 
experience. 

In 2032 I will buy one for $3k off The Zuckerbook from a guy who ran it into 
the ground and left it parked under a tree behind his trailer and hack some 
batteries with some cheap chinee EBay knockoffs and maybe get it running again. 
If the nannies and screens aren’t completely fried and NLA. That will be my 
user experience. 

--FT
Sent from iFōn

> On Jan 5, 2022, at 2:23 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> If it really has a 620 mile range (assume real-world ~500) that would be 
> quite welcome. Not a fan of the wide screen and other gizmos. Give me a car 
> with that range, basic gauges on the dash, a manual climate control system, 
> real switches for the headlights, wipers, and other accessories, and I might 
> be interested.
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, at 9:08 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>> MB Tex was the distant ancestor of vegan upholstery.
>> 
>> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:44 PM Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Wasn’t that called “MBTex”?
>>> 
>>> --FT
>>> Sent from iFōn
>>> 
 On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
 
 Fisker uses vegan leather too.
 
> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 7:02 PM Clay via Mercedes 
> wrote:
> 
> Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather
> 
> Clay
> 
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes >>> 
> wrote:
>> 
>> 
> 
>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/
>> 
>> --
>> OK Don
>> 
>> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
>> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
>> 
>> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”
> Wernher
>> Von Braun
>> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
>> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
>> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> 
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>>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 It depends upon the heat pump I think. I got in a debate on that recently on 
Reddit. Apparently there are heat pumps that will work down to 5F (-15 
Canadians) which is pretty good.
For the house up north I'm debating a geothermal system to replace the current 
oil burner. We've got good access around the house and a high water table which 
will help.
-Curt

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022, 05:08:38 PM EST, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in 
really cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for days.

Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures. They 
are fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon 
electric heat built in to the heat pump system.

Randy



On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in Virginia.
>
> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating, which would 
> be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which should be 
> more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold outside.
>
> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas would 
> compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a "stranded 
> in a blizzard" scenario.
>
> Allan
>
>


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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 0F isn't really all that cold, especially considering the light oil in today's 
engines.
A block heater is a good idea but I bet its hard to find a car with a real 
freeze plug these days. Neither of my VWs have one. They make a coolant heater 
that the guys in real cold climes use.
My 2015 TDI has never failed to fire off, it's never even seriously complained 
but I don't think I've started it much below zero.
-Curt

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022, 05:05:45 PM EST, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Do you have block heaters in your vehicles? If not, get them installed. 
Not expensive and if plugged in and kept warm, the vehicle will start. 
You can also get battery blankets that are electric heaters to keep the 
battery warm.

Randy


On 05/01/2022 3:03 PM, Clay via Mercedes wrote:
> Temps this week hover around 0*F in ANC.  The carpet installers are using the 
> garage to prep so the cars are out on the street.  I tried to move one that 
> had sat overnight to put it in the driveway.  Maybe 30 hour cold soaked and 
> that poor battery was nearly incapable of spinning it over.  Like a no glow 
> start on an OM615.  Did get it lit off after a few tries and hooked it to the 
> charger once the engine was up to temp and battery warmed.  Tried to move it 
> this morning and it was not happy.  Maybe it wants a real winter battery.
>
>
>
> Clay


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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I had put the batteries from the snowmobile club's Pisten Bully on the 
batteryMinder on maintenance mode a month ago. Monday I took them over and put 
them in the machine. Remember this has a big Mercedes diesel truck engine, I 
forget exactly, OM3xx something.The 2 batteries are in series for 24v starting 
and are dated 2014. Last winter they were on their last legs and the Minder 
brought them around, hopefully they'll last this year.
Anyway it cranked a looong time but finally fired off. Unfortunately when it 
fired off the starter button (switch) stuck on. So I shut the key off and 
noodled around to loosen the button. Lather, rinse, repeat. I could get the 
button to work fine as long as the engine didn't start but as soon as it 
started the button would stick.
In desperation I finally shot a little Houdini lock lube around the button, it 
was the only lube I had with me. Seems to have done the trick and smells nice 
too. At this point the batteries were toast but the machine did manage to crank 
up one last time. I let it run for 15 minutes, hopefully got enough electrons 
into the batteries to make up for the torture.
-Curt

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022, 04:04:23 PM EST, Clay via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Temps this week hover around 0*F in ANC.  The carpet installers are using the 
garage to prep so the cars are out on the street.  I tried to move one that had 
sat overnight to put it in the driveway.  Maybe 30 hour cold soaked and that 
poor battery was nearly incapable of spinning it over.  Like a no glow start on 
an OM615.  Did get it lit off after a few tries and hooked it to the charger 
once the engine was up to temp and battery warmed.  Tried to move it this 
morning and it was not happy.  Maybe it wants a real winter battery.



Clay

> On Jan 5, 2022, at 11:39 AM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in Virginia.
> 
> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating, which would 
> be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which should be 
> more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold outside.
> 
> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas would 
> compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a "stranded 
> in a blizzard" scenario.
> 
> Allan

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

From what my insulation guys said, and they've been doing this in the Flagstaff 
area for some years, mini-splits have always performed better at low 
temperatures than the larger single home units. Apparently, it's something to 
do with the design. The big-name guys like Samsung have units that are as much 
as 95% efficient at low temperatures. Thats the big issue - efficiency. When 
it's only 70% efficient at those temperatures, it's becoming ineffective at 
pulling heat out of the ambient air.

-D

From: Mercedes  on behalf of Randy Bennell via 
Mercedes 
Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 6:03 PM
To: dan penoff.com via Mercedes 
Cc: Randy Bennell 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

I thought they might even work down to about -20C but we get colder than
that here in the GWN. It is -25C right now at 5:00 PM.
The coldest that I have seen lately is about -33C but we sometimes
exceed that.

Randy

On 05/01/2022 4:59 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:
> Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My 
> insulation guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down to 4F 
> (-15C) for the casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature coming 
> out of it would be that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down to that 
> ambient temperature.
>
> I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas wall 
> furnace that’s currently in there.
>
> -D
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in really 
>> cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for days.
>>
>> Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures. They are 
>> fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon electric 
>> heat built in to the heat pump system.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
>>> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in Virginia.
>>>
>>> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating, which 
>>> would be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which 
>>> should be more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold outside.
>>>
>>> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas would 
>>> compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a "stranded 
>>> in a blizzard" scenario.
>>>
>>> Allan
>>>
>>>


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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

I thought they might even work down to about -20C but we get colder than 
that here in the GWN. It is -25C right now at 5:00 PM.
The coldest that I have seen lately is about -33C but we sometimes 
exceed that.


Randy

On 05/01/2022 4:59 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote:

Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My insulation 
guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down to 4F (-15C) for the 
casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature coming out of it would be 
that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down to that ambient temperature.

I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas wall 
furnace that’s currently in there.

-D

Sent from my iPad


On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes  
wrote:

It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in really cold 
weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for days.

Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures. They are fine 
in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon electric heat 
built in to the heat pump system.

Randy




On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in Virginia.

I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating, which would 
be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which should be 
more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold outside.

I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas would compare as far 
as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a "stranded in a blizzard" 
scenario.

Allan





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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Actually, there are heat pumps now rated for lower temperatures. My insulation 
guys in Flagstaff offered me a mini-split that’s good down to 4F (-15C) for the 
casita. Granted, I can’t imagine the air temperature coming out of it would be 
that great, but it’s supposed to produce heat down to that ambient temperature.

I passed for now, but I may still do it so I can disable the old gas wall 
furnace that’s currently in there.

-D

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 5, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in really 
> cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for days.
> 
> Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures. They are 
> fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon electric 
> heat built in to the heat pump system.
> 
> Randy
> 
> 
> 
>> On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
>> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in Virginia.
>> 
>> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating, which 
>> would be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which 
>> should be more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold outside.
>> 
>> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas would 
>> compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a "stranded 
>> in a blizzard" scenario.
>> 
>> Allan
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

It really isn't a problem for Tesla owners to keep the car warm in 
really cold weather. They just light it on fire and it burns hot for days.


Heat pumps for houses don't work here in the winter temperatures. They 
are fine in spring and fall but come winter, you will be relying upon 
electric heat built in to the heat pump system.


Randy



On 05/01/2022 2:39 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:

Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in Virginia.

I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating, which would 
be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which should be 
more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold outside.

I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas would compare as far 
as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a "stranded in a blizzard" 
scenario.

Allan





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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

Do you have block heaters in your vehicles? If not, get them installed. 
Not expensive and if plugged in and kept warm, the vehicle will start. 
You can also get battery blankets that are electric heaters to keep the 
battery warm.


Randy


On 05/01/2022 3:03 PM, Clay via Mercedes wrote:

Temps this week hover around 0*F in ANC.  The carpet installers are using the 
garage to prep so the cars are out on the street.  I tried to move one that had 
sat overnight to put it in the driveway.  Maybe 30 hour cold soaked and that 
poor battery was nearly incapable of spinning it over.  Like a no glow start on 
an OM615.  Did get it lit off after a few tries and hooked it to the charger 
once the engine was up to temp and battery warmed.  Tried to move it this 
morning and it was not happy.  Maybe it wants a real winter battery.



Clay



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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

No. I wear a hoodie, jeans, sneakers, and no gloves. If I get stuck, I get on 
twitter and complain that nobody is coming to help.


On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, at 4:15 PM, mitch--- via Mercedes wrote:
> You have blankets, a parka, and insulated boots in the trunk, right?
> Mitch.
>
> On 2022-01-05 15:39, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
>
>> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas
>> would compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in
>> a "stranded in a blizzard" scenario.
>> 
>
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[mitch--- via Mercedes]

You have blankets, a parka, and insulated boots in the trunk, right?
Mitch.

On 2022-01-05 15:39, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:


I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas
would compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in
a "stranded in a blizzard" scenario.



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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Clay via Mercedes]

Temps this week hover around 0*F in ANC.  The carpet installers are using the 
garage to prep so the cars are out on the street.  I tried to move one that had 
sat overnight to put it in the driveway.  Maybe 30 hour cold soaked and that 
poor battery was nearly incapable of spinning it over.  Like a no glow start on 
an OM615.  Did get it lit off after a few tries and hooked it to the charger 
once the engine was up to temp and battery warmed.  Tried to move it this 
morning and it was not happy.  Maybe it wants a real winter battery.



Clay

> On Jan 5, 2022, at 11:39 AM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in Virginia.
> 
> I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating, which would 
> be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which should be 
> more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold outside.
> 
> I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas would 
> compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a "stranded 
> in a blizzard" scenario.
> 
> Allan

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Also, that's why the 620 claimed range is welcome ... in real world conditions 
running the heat or AC, it's still probably going to have "useful" range even 
if it doesn't manage the ideal-condition "rated" range.


On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, at 3:03 PM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
> I just wonder how harsh weather conditions would affect driving range. For 
> example, full AC or heat when it's a hundred degrees or 20 degrees has got to 
> be a severe drain on the batteries.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 2:23 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
>> If it really has a 620 mile range (assume real-world ~500) that would be 
>> quite welcome. Not a fan of the wide screen and other gizmos. Give me a car 
>> with that range, basic gauges on the dash, a manual climate control system, 
>> real switches for the headlights, wipers, and other accessories, and I might 
>> be interested.
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, at 9:08 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>> > MB Tex was the distant ancestor of vegan upholstery.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:44 PM Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes <
>> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Wasn’t that called “MBTex”?
>> >>
>> >> --FT
>> >> Sent from iFōn
>> >>
>> >> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
>> >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Fisker uses vegan leather too.
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 7:02 PM Clay via Mercedes 
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Clay
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes > >> >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> OK Don
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
>> >> >>> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”
>> >> >> Wernher
>> >> >>> Von Braun
>> >> >>> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
>> >> >>> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
>> >> >>> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ___
>> >> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> >> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > ___
>> >> > http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >> >
>> >> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >> >
>> >> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> >> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >>
>> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >>
>> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> > ___
>> > http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >
>> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >
>> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Ask the folks in Teslas who were stranded on the interstate in Virginia.

I think at least the newer EV cars do not use resistance heating, which would 
be a heavy drain on the batteries, but use a heat pump system which should be 
more efficient, at least as long as it's not *too* cold outside.

I don't know how a half-charged EV vs. a car with a half-tank of gas would 
compare as far as keeping warm enough to prevent hypothermia in a "stranded in 
a blizzard" scenario.

Allan


On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, at 3:03 PM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
> I just wonder how harsh weather conditions would affect driving range. For 
> example, full AC or heat when it's a hundred degrees or 20 degrees has got to 
> be a severe drain on the batteries.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 2:23 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
>> If it really has a 620 mile range (assume real-world ~500) that would be 
>> quite welcome. Not a fan of the wide screen and other gizmos. Give me a car 
>> with that range, basic gauges on the dash, a manual climate control system, 
>> real switches for the headlights, wipers, and other accessories, and I might 
>> be interested.
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, at 9:08 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>> > MB Tex was the distant ancestor of vegan upholstery.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:44 PM Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes <
>> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Wasn’t that called “MBTex”?
>> >>
>> >> --FT
>> >> Sent from iFōn
>> >>
>> >> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
>> >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Fisker uses vegan leather too.
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 7:02 PM Clay via Mercedes 
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Clay
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes > >> >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> OK Don
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
>> >> >>> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”
>> >> >> Wernher
>> >> >>> Von Braun
>> >> >>> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
>> >> >>> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
>> >> >>> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ___
>> >> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> >> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > ___
>> >> > http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >> >
>> >> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >> >
>> >> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> >> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >>
>> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >>
>> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> > ___
>> > http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >
>> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >
>> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
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>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

I just wonder how harsh weather conditions would affect driving range. For
example, full AC or heat when it's a hundred degrees or 20 degrees has got
to be a severe drain on the batteries.

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022, 2:23 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> If it really has a 620 mile range (assume real-world ~500) that would be
> quite welcome. Not a fan of the wide screen and other gizmos. Give me a car
> with that range, basic gauges on the dash, a manual climate control system,
> real switches for the headlights, wipers, and other accessories, and I
> might be interested.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, at 9:08 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> > MB Tex was the distant ancestor of vegan upholstery.
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:44 PM Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Wasn’t that called “MBTex”?
> >>
> >> --FT
> >> Sent from iFōn
> >>
> >> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Fisker uses vegan leather too.
> >> >
> >> >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 7:02 PM Clay via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather
> >> >>
> >> >> Clay
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com
> >> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >>
> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> OK Don
> >> >>>
> >> >>> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time
> to
> >> >>> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
> >> >>>
> >> >>> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am
> doing.”
> >> >> Wernher
> >> >>> Von Braun
> >> >>> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> >> >>> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> >> >>> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> >> >>
> >> >> ___
> >> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >> >>
> >> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >> >>
> >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > ___
> >> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >> >
> >> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >> >
> >> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >> >
> >>
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>
> >>
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
> ___
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>
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>
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>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

If it really has a 620 mile range (assume real-world ~500) that would be quite 
welcome. Not a fan of the wide screen and other gizmos. Give me a car with that 
range, basic gauges on the dash, a manual climate control system, real switches 
for the headlights, wipers, and other accessories, and I might be interested.


On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, at 9:08 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> MB Tex was the distant ancestor of vegan upholstery.
>
> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:44 PM Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>> Wasn’t that called “MBTex”?
>>
>> --FT
>> Sent from iFōn
>>
>> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Fisker uses vegan leather too.
>> >
>> >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 7:02 PM Clay via Mercedes 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather
>> >>
>> >> Clay
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes > >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> OK Don
>> >>>
>> >>> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
>> >>> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
>> >>>
>> >>> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”
>> >> Wernher
>> >>> Von Braun
>> >>> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
>> >>> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
>> >>> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >>
>> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >>
>> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> > ___
>> > http://www.okiebenz.com
>> >
>> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> >
>> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> >
>>
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>
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>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>>
>>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

MB Tex was the distant ancestor of vegan upholstery.

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 8:44 PM Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Wasn’t that called “MBTex”?
>
> --FT
> Sent from iFōn
>
> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > Fisker uses vegan leather too.
> >
> >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 7:02 PM Clay via Mercedes 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather
> >>
> >> Clay
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes  >
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> OK Don
> >>>
> >>> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
> >>> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
> >>>
> >>> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”
> >> Wernher
> >>> Von Braun
> >>> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> >>> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> >>> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> >>
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>
> >>
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

Wasn’t that called “MBTex”?

--FT
Sent from iFōn

> On Jan 3, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Fisker uses vegan leather too.
> 
>> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 7:02 PM Clay via Mercedes 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather
>> 
>> Clay
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/
>>> 
>>> --
>>> OK Don
>>> 
>>> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
>>> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
>>> 
>>> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”
>> Wernher
>>> Von Braun
>>> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
>>> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
>>> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>> 
> ___
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Fisker uses vegan leather too.

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022, 7:02 PM Clay via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather
>
> Clay
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/
> >
> > --
> > OK Don
> >
> > "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
> > pause and reflect." Mark Twain
> >
> > “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”
> Wernher
> > Von Braun
> > 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> > 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> > 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes is selling vaporware

[Clay via Mercedes]

Vegan leather = Mango fruit leather

Clay


> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/
> 
> -- 
> OK Don
> 
> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
> 
> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
> Von Braun
> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!

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