Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior
Hi Naveen, So much for my request of an off-list info request ... so be it ... now that it is out in the open, there is absolutely nothing I see that would indicate that there is a question of authenticity, or quality however that would be defined - which is my sole worry. So I should stop right here. But I'm stubborn and will continue ... Unless all bridges are irreparably burned, I hope there is still something amicable that can be worked out to lessen the burns. You say: I am still in shock because I expected the meteorite community to be small, friendly and ethical. As a community it is. But people are getting into disputes all the time. You can research it on this list and see flames that have flown throughout the years. Intelius is reliable, but not much else on the internet is. Everything else is caveat emptor. In a nutshell, without any input from the guys, and my pure speculation is you made that quarter of a million plus buck purchase and then tried to return 2/3 of it within the permissible window given to a bunch of guys used to dealing with new collectors purchasing $100 items for which they work night and day giving free lessons. If I read between the lines (and I have ZERO knowledge of this from the dealers) you felt you were overcharged. No doubt some other dealer told you that as he vied for the sale and your confidence and crapped bricks when he heard the amounts at stake. Dealers are like that behind closed doors - they eat each other for lunch for two orders of magnitude less. I'd like to invite you to come to the Tucson mineral show to assess this. And we all know that once a customer looses that lovin feeling for a rock, it's history. Why else would you agree to keep 8 of the 9 and just return the most expensive one and tell them to send you half of the cost of the second most expensive one back…? For reasons we do not know, once the sale was poisoned, it looks like a dispute developed between the selling partners which resulted in your return/refund not being a deliverable, not honored. You then got pissed off at them and involved the IMCA which reticently fulfilled their obligation in accordance with your contract as you have described it. It comes down to a simple escape clause you had that wasn't honored? Correct? I beg you do not assail the authenticity of their stones unless you can point something out that was fake; quality is ambiguous in this situation if they are authentic: then they are authentic. Or is there a hidden defect such as glue, cracks, etc. Rake them over the coals as you deem fit, but the ramifications of alleging fakery go much beyond baseless suspicions of parties in a dispute; the effect is to put the entire meteorite world in serious turmoil and we all lose, just like the scare of the US defaulting on its debt - it is a cascade effect through everyone's collection and rumors are deadly and hurt us all since the community with the good material is so tightly knit. To put it in perspective, however, it would be instructive to know whether it was simply an issue of differing expectations regarding returning your money among the selling associates, or if there were some special requests you required to modify (cut, polish, etc) the stones transforming them into something else. That would explain why they didn't allow the return, but it wouldn't explain why you were apparently promised it was returnable. Alternately, and what I suspect, perhaps it was originally from Morocco and most of the cash went there to release the stone and can't be recovered. None of this is your concern given you owned the escape clause; however it would speak volumes on how such a sad situation could shock us by occurring. No one selling meteorites that I know has terrific cash flow and sometimes companies make risky decisions based on optimism that lead to insolvency and inability to honor their unsettled liabilities. That doesn’t make them unethical, it just makes them foolish businessmen. With that magnitude, don’t you wish you only offered X% up front and Y% upon satisfaction? Of course that has nothing to do with your contract, but this sort of thing could happen anywhere and this is nothing you failed to do - only a bitter contemplation to theoretically have avoided the catastrophe. Imagine buying a house with a cashier’s check for the full amount from a bunch of in-laws in partnership ...escrow comes to mind to avoid temptation. Good luck to you all. Today is seriously the most terrible day in meteoritidum I've ever had - a nightmare. I hope beyond all odds that something good comes with it for all those who have been burned. The meteorites sound absolutely astounding. As a last resort, I have a cardboard sign with magic marker written, “I werk for unwanted orphan Lunar meatyites” ;-) Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Naveen Jain
[meteorite-list] shell shocked and stunned
Open Question to be taken very seriously- Does this mean that anything received from any/all three is/are now suspect in our respective collections? Pete MICA 1733 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal beh...
Hello, I am certainly surprised to find my emails published on the MetList! However it is true that the IMCA Board tried very hard over the last few weeks to negotiate an agreement between Martin, Stefan and Naveen, but I am sorry to say that we were not successful. Incidentally, Greg Catterton asked me to specify that his leaving the IMCA is in no way connected to Martin and Serfan's problem. Goodnight. Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _IMPACTIKA@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 8/1/2011 10:02:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time, nav...@intelius.com writes: Doug, I am still in shock because I expected the meteorite community to be small, friendly and ethical. I have had wonderful experience purchasing, learning and getting guidance from Martin Horejsi, Adam Hupe, Greg Hupe, Michael Farmer and others. Martin Altman and Stefan got blinded by the large $$$ sale and couldn’t control their greed. They sold all of their ethics, morals and even the sense of unlawful activities for $264K. I commend IMCA board members for taking the ethics violation seriously. They spent countless hours investigating the complaint and concluded that Stefan and Martin needed to honor their obligations. See below email from president of IMCA so you can see the facts. This is not my personal opinion of fraud committed by Stefan and Martin Altman but this the opinion of 8 reputed meteorite community leaders on the board of IMCA. Here are the string of emails from Anne Black (President of IMCA) that speak for themselves: = From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 1:18 PM To: Naveen Jain Cc: j...@meteorites.com.au Subject: Re: Update Hello Naveen, Ok, we are done. Martin was voted off the Board last week. Then we asked for his resignation from the IMCA. He asked for a few days to think about it, then this morning he emailed us that he was resigning. I am still very sorry that we could not get to an amicable resolution of this dispute, I really hoped..., but in the end we were giving very little choice. Thanks you for your patience. Anne Black === From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 12:28 PM To: altm...@meteorite-martin.de; Naveen Jain Subject: Complaint: Last attempt at a solution Naveen and Martin, Thank you for all the documentation you have both sent to us. We have reviewed it carefully, discussed it within the Board of Directors and we have voted on it. And we are now ready to act on this complaint. However, to be absolutely fair to both of you, we would like to give you one last chance to resolve this dispute with a mutually acceptable compromise. Going through the documentation we have isolated three options that have been suggested by either one of you at one time or another. These 3 options are listed below. Please look at them carefully and do let us know if there is anyway you might agree on either one of them. Let's give it a couple days for both of you to think about it, but if you tell us that no compromise is possible, then we are certainly ready to publish the decision we have reached in accordance with the ByLaws of the IMCA. 1)Return Kreep lunar for $124,387 and Green lunar for $54,152. Total $178,539. 2) Keep green lunar but return lunar Kreep for what was paid ($124,387) and refund 25K from the price of green lunar. Total refund: $149,387. 3) Return all meteorites for a full refund. Thank you for your patience and your cooperation. Copy sent to the Board of Directors Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com impact...@aol.com President of IMCA www.IMCA.cc = From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 1:24 PM To: Naveen Jain Cc: stefan ralew; altm...@meteorite-martin.de Subject: Dispute Resolution Hello, I am sorry to have to admit that the resolution is not what we were hoping for. Stefan Ralew has informed us that he is the legal owner of Chladni's Heirs, as proven by the fact that your payments were sent to him and that the invoices came directly from him, not from Martin Altmann. Therefore he is the only one entitled to making any business decisions. Further Stefan Ralew has resigned from the International Meteorite Collectors Association, and has made it very clearly that any efforts from the IMCA regarding this dispute were not welcome. Therefore, working strictly within the framework of the IMCA ByLaws, there is nothing further we can do. Again I am very sorry we were not able to help you reach a mutually acceptable compromise. Thank you for your patience. Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com impact...@aol.com President of IMCA www.IMCA.cc
[meteorite-list] Removed/Resigned Members
Hi all, I would just like to address Pete's question and clarify that none of these member's complaints were in regards to the authenticity of material. I personally have no reason to believe that any of them have sold misrepresented meteorite material. Cheers, Jeff Kuyken Meteorites Australia www.meteorites.com.au Vice President - I.M.C.A. Inc. www.imca.cc -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com Sent: Tuesday, 2 August 2011 5:43 PM To: The List Subject: [meteorite-list] shell shocked and stunned Open Question to be taken very seriously- Does this mean that anything received from any/all three is/are now suspect in our respective collections? Pete MICA 1733 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kicked out of IMCAfor illegal activities
Dear List, I would like to express my regret that Martin Altmann, Stefan Ralew, and Greg Catterton are no longer members of the I.M.C.A. Martin Altmann ist one of the fairest and most reliable persons I got to know in my life. I also have great respect for his expert knowledge which he acquired on many subjects. My regret is deep. Best regards Siegfried __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior
Doug, that was a long email but I will try to answer your questions with another long email. I am very new to the meteorite collection and just fell in love with them when I purchased my first set of these from Martin Horejsi. My experience with him was so pleasant that I just assumed that others in the meteorite community will be just like him. He didn’t want me to buy anything but asked me to learn about them before he would even consider selling them to me. I guess I should have known this since he is a professor by day and meteorite collector by night. After I spent 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification with him at an education event, he sent me home with the briefcase full of meteorites and told me to pay when I get home and think about it again. He told me that he will take anything and everything back if I ever decided that I have made a mistake in purchasing them. Back to Martin Altman and Stefan, it was a different experience. Martin will tell great story about each meteorite and kept suggesting to buy it. I was willing to look at these well described meteorites since I was assured of full refund if I return them within 3 weeks (their website clearly states that any customer can ask for full refund for any reasons within 30 days). They asked me to pay them full amount by wire (which should have been my first warning sign) before shipping them but they again assured me that I can return anything within 3 weeks. I contacted Martin back within hours of my receiving the meteorites to let him know that I plan to return 2 out of 9 meteorites because they didn’t look how I imagined from the picture and their description. I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I am not sure if the meteorites are fake but they are certainly very low quality for the premium price I paid for these. I have since gotten to know Greg Hupe Adam Hupe and Michael Farmer. They each have given me unconditional 30 days money back guarantee and I have really enjoyed working with them. I tried very hard to resolve the issue with Martin and Stefan but Stefan didn’t want to resolve anything and told me Martin has no authority to return anything but can only sell stuff on his behalf. I am still hoping that Meteorite community can put enough moral pressure on Stefan and Martin Altman to do the right and fair thing. Just to answer your question specifically, I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesn’t look right to me and it was never touched, polished or modified in any way. Martin had one Urelite that needed classification but Stefan didn’t want to slice the piece for classification so he hammer broke a piece to send for analyses. Martin suggested that they should polish the broken surface before sending it to me along with polishing one other green Lunar meteorite that desperately needed polishing. I simply agreed what Martin said he needed to do before shipping with these meteorites. Irrespective, I am not even returning the Urelite specimen that was polished anyway. I think it was simply a greed and large sum that blinded them of their morals and obligations. Stefan and Martin Altman finally decided to sell their soul for large sum of money. IMCA board tried very hard to get them to honor their obligations but they refused which really makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff that they won’t ever be able to sell again. Warm regards, naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: MexicoDoug [mailto:mexicod...@aim.com] Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 11:12 PM To: Naveen Jain Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior Hi Naveen, So much for my request of an off-list info request ... so be it ... now that it is out in the open, there is absolutely nothing I see that would indicate that there is a question of authenticity, or quality however that would be defined - which is my sole worry. So I should stop right here. But I'm stubborn and will continue ... Unless all bridges are irreparably burned, I hope there is still something amicable that can be worked out to lessen the burns. You say: I am still in shock because I expected the meteorite community to be small, friendly and ethical. As a community it is. But people are getting into disputes all the time. You can research it on this list and see flames that have flown throughout the years. Intelius is reliable, but not much else on the internet is. Everything else is caveat emptor. In a nutshell, without any input from the guys, and my pure speculation is you made that quarter of a million plus buck purchase and then tried to return 2/3 of it within the permissible window given to a bunch of guys used to dealing
[meteorite-list] New Impact Rate Count Lays Nemesis Theory to Rest
New Impact Rate Count Lays Nemesis Theory to Rest by Nancy Atkinson, Universe Today, August 1, 2011 http://www.universetoday.com/87874/new-impact-rate-count-lays-nemesis-theory-to-rest/ Avoiding Nemesis: Does the impact rate for asteroids and comets vary periodically with time? MPIA Science Release 2011-08-01, Max Planck Institute for Astronomy http://www.mpia.de/Public/menu_q2e.php?Aktuelles/PR/2011/PR110801/PR_110801_en.html#images http://www.mpia.de/Public/menu_q2e.php?Aktuelles/PR/2011/PR110801/PR_110801_en.html The paper is: Bailer-Jones, C. A. L., 2011, Bayesian time series analysis of terrestrial impact cratering. Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society. Article first published online: 27 JUN 2011 DOI: 10./j.1365-2966.2011.19112.x http://de.arxiv.org/abs/1105.4100 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1365-2966.2011.19112.x/abstract http://esoads.eso.org/abs/2011MNRAS.tmp..993B PDF file at http://de.arxiv.org/pdf/1105.4100v2 http://de.arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1105/1105.4100v2.pdf Yours, Paul H. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kicked out of IMCAfor illegal activities
Siegfried, list, I agree. Without knowing the details I'm bewildered and can't believe what I read on the list today. Mr. Jain is an extremely rich man and of course a tempting possible client for every meteorite dealer. Especially this fact makes me pensive. In any case: Martin Altmann and Stefan Ralew are rightly highly reputated meteorite dealers, experts, members of the worldwibe meteorite community since a long time. (Btw. the name of Mr. Jain I've read the first time some hours ago.) I know especially Martin as someone who never hesitates to help with his enormous knowledge of the matter. We all on this list know his knowledgeable and engaged postings, quite often flavoured with a good pinch of humour. If I'd be a member of IMCA, such an event would make me think about whether it wouldn't be time to leave this association too. With regret, best regards, Matthias - Original Message - From: siegfr...@haberer-meteorite.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: i...@imcamail.de Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 12:28 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kicked out of IMCAfor illegal activities Dear List, I would like to express my regret that Martin Altmann, Stefan Ralew, and Greg Catterton are no longer members of the I.M.C.A. Martin Altmann ist one of the fairest and most reliable persons I got to know in my life. I also have great respect for his expert knowledge which he acquired on many subjects. My regret is deep. Best regards Siegfried __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde gepr�ft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kickedout of IMCAfor illegal activities
Thanks Matthias and Siegfried, same bad feelings here. Andi -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Matthias Bärmann Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 15:48 An: siegfr...@haberer-meteorite.de; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: i...@imcamail.de Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kickedout of IMCAfor illegal activities Siegfried, list, I agree. Without knowing the details I'm bewildered and can't believe what I read on the list today. Mr. Jain is an extremely rich man and of course a tempting possible client for every meteorite dealer. Especially this fact makes me pensive. In any case: Martin Altmann and Stefan Ralew are rightly highly reputated meteorite dealers, experts, members of the worldwibe meteorite community since a long time. (Btw. the name of Mr. Jain I've read the first time some hours ago.) I know especially Martin as someone who never hesitates to help with his enormous knowledge of the matter. We all on this list know his knowledgeable and engaged postings, quite often flavoured with a good pinch of humour. If I'd be a member of IMCA, such an event would make me think about whether it wouldn't be time to leave this association too. With regret, best regards, Matthias - Original Message - From: siegfr...@haberer-meteorite.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: i...@imcamail.de Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 12:28 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kicked out of IMCAfor illegal activities Dear List, I would like to express my regret that Martin Altmann, Stefan Ralew, and Greg Catterton are no longer members of the I.M.C.A. Martin Altmann ist one of the fairest and most reliable persons I got to know in my life. I also have great respect for his expert knowledge which he acquired on many subjects. My regret is deep. Best regards Siegfried __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for theirillegal behavior
Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde gepr�ft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior
Hello Naveen, It appears you have stepped right into humanity's grand challenge! A code of conduct, if you will. Integrity, Respect, Accountability and Performance Excellence are all being measured, every second of everyday. Something we all need to think about and remind ourselves about. This thread has raised these issues in my mind, today. Kind Regards, Jim Wooddell __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior
to force them to honor their obligation of full refund. I strongly suspect that Stefan and Martin either sent me the either fake or low quality meteorite and were afraid to give the refunds for the garbage that they sold me under deceit and fraud of promising full refund with clear intent of not honoring the obligation. I am sending this note to warn all meteorite collectors to watch out so they don't become their next victim. I will be happy to provide more details if anyone wants it. I have consulted my legal counsel and probably will file lawsuit to avoid them from profiting from their illegal activities. I may also contact my friends at FBI to investigate their mail and wire fraud scam. - Original Message - From: I.M.C.A. International Meteorite Collectors Association questi...@imca.cc To: complai...@imca.cc Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:18 AM Subject: IMCA Complaints Your Name: Naveen Jain Your E-Mail: nav...@intelius.com Are you an IMCA member?: no Message: I am a new collector and purchased 9 meteorite specimens from Martin Altman (director of IMCA). Martin touted his being a director of IMCA to give me comfort and entice me to buy it from him. I specifically asked him if I will be able to return any item that I didn't like and he said that it's their normal practice and part of the German consumer protection law (see email from him below). The return policy on their website also clearly states the same i.e. a customer can return any item within 30 days for a full refund. i contacted them within 24 hours of my receiving the items that I want to return 2 of the 9 specimens that I received. They are now refusing to return the item and refund my money. I am now being told that I am somehow a business customer and my order that was sold from their stock as shown on their website is somehow a custom order because it was packed for shipping to US. I will like to refund everything to them if they have problem returning 2 out of 9 orders. Here is the email from Martin Altman: From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM To: Naveen Jain Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. Hi Naveen, As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily return any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full refund. Nja.happily. perhaps not :-) ; But of course that is our business standard. And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer returns it within 3 weeks. Warm regards, Naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde gepr¸ft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD: My Annual 50% Off Sale On EVERYTHING! -August 1st to 7th ! Enjoy!
Hello, This is my Annual 50% off Everything Sale. Enjoy! Thanks! ALL SALE ITEMS HERE: http://stores.ebay.com/voyage-botanica-natural-history Best Wishes Michael Cottingham __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior
that they sold me under deceit and fraud of promising full refund with clear intent of not honoring the obligation. I am sending this note to warn all meteorite collectors to watch out so they don't become their next victim. I will be happy to provide more details if anyone wants it. I have consulted my legal counsel and probably will file lawsuit to avoid them from profiting from their illegal activities. I may also contact my friends at FBI to investigate their mail and wire fraud scam. - Original Message - From: I.M.C.A. International Meteorite Collectors Association questi...@imca.cc To: complai...@imca.cc Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:18 AM Subject: IMCA Complaints Your Name: Naveen Jain Your E-Mail: nav...@intelius.com Are you an IMCA member?: no Message: I am a new collector and purchased 9 meteorite specimens from Martin Altman (director of IMCA). Martin touted his being a director of IMCA to give me comfort and entice me to buy it from him. I specifically asked him if I will be able to return any item that I didn't like and he said that it's their normal practice and part of the German consumer protection law (see email from him below). The return policy on their website also clearly states the same i.e. a customer can return any item within 30 days for a full refund. i contacted them within 24 hours of my receiving the items that I want to return 2 of the 9 specimens that I received. They are now refusing to return the item and refund my money. I am now being told that I am somehow a business customer and my order that was sold from their stock as shown on their website is somehow a custom order because it was packed for shipping to US. I will like to refund everything to them if they have problem returning 2 out of 9 orders. Here is the email from Martin Altman: From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM To: Naveen Jain Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. Hi Naveen, As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily return any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full refund. Nja.happily. perhaps not :-) ; But of course that is our business standard. And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer returns it within 3 weeks. Warm regards, Naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde gepr¸ft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kickedout of IMCAfor illegal activities
Did they promise a 30 day return policy? Is that on their site? If so and by the emails it seems they violated all terms offered to Mr Jain. They are in the wrong and Mr Jain is right. If the board ruled unanimously, where is the problem? Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Aug 2, 2011, at 6:50 AM, Andreas Gren i...@meteoritenhaus.de wrote: Thanks Matthias and Siegfried, same bad feelings here. Andi -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Matthias Bärmann Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 15:48 An: siegfr...@haberer-meteorite.de; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: i...@imcamail.de Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kickedout of IMCAfor illegal activities Siegfried, list, I agree. Without knowing the details I'm bewildered and can't believe what I read on the list today. Mr. Jain is an extremely rich man and of course a tempting possible client for every meteorite dealer. Especially this fact makes me pensive. In any case: Martin Altmann and Stefan Ralew are rightly highly reputated meteorite dealers, experts, members of the worldwibe meteorite community since a long time. (Btw. the name of Mr. Jain I've read the first time some hours ago.) I know especially Martin as someone who never hesitates to help with his enormous knowledge of the matter. We all on this list know his knowledgeable and engaged postings, quite often flavoured with a good pinch of humour. If I'd be a member of IMCA, such an event would make me think about whether it wouldn't be time to leave this association too. With regret, best regards, Matthias - Original Message - From: siegfr...@haberer-meteorite.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: i...@imcamail.de Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 12:28 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kicked out of IMCAfor illegal activities Dear List, I would like to express my regret that Martin Altmann, Stefan Ralew, and Greg Catterton are no longer members of the I.M.C.A. Martin Altmann ist one of the fairest and most reliable persons I got to know in my life. I also have great respect for his expert knowledge which he acquired on many subjects. My regret is deep. Best regards Siegfried __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for theirillegal behavior
in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer returns it within 3 weeks. Warm regards, Naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde gepr¸ft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altmankickedout of IMCAfor illegal activities
Michael, I agree with your assessment. I will love the meteorite community to put moral pressure on Stefan and Martin so they do what’s ethical, moral and legal. Here is a link and information from their website. Additionally, I have written confirmation from Martin on an email with unconditional warranty. There was no qualification of any kind. http://www.chladnis-heirs.com/ordering-info.html -- Return policy, We grant to our non-professional customers to return all items within 1 month after the date of purchase for any reason at full refund - given the item being in the same condition as it was sent (except custom made goods). For the case, that you are not fully satisfied with your specimen, please contact us immediately. - From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM To: Naveen Jain Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. Hi Naveen, As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily return any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full refund. Nja.happily. perhaps not :-) ; But of course that is our business standard. And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer returns it within 3 weeks. Does anyone see any doubt on what I was promised in the email for them not to honor their obligations. Warm regards, Naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of meteoriteguy.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 7:04 AM To: Andreas Gren Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altmankickedout of IMCAfor illegal activities Did they promise a 30 day return policy? Is that on their site? If so and by the emails it seems they violated all terms offered to Mr Jain. They are in the wrong and Mr Jain is right. If the board ruled unanimously, where is the problem? Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Aug 2, 2011, at 6:50 AM, Andreas Gren i...@meteoritenhaus.de wrote: Thanks Matthias and Siegfried, same bad feelings here. Andi -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Matthias Bärmann Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 15:48 An: siegfr...@haberer-meteorite.de; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: i...@imcamail.de Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kickedout of IMCAfor illegal activities Siegfried, list, I agree. Without knowing the details I'm bewildered and can't believe what I read on the list today. Mr. Jain is an extremely rich man and of course a tempting possible client for every meteorite dealer. Especially this fact makes me pensive. In any case: Martin Altmann and Stefan Ralew are rightly highly reputated meteorite dealers, experts, members of the worldwibe meteorite community since a long time. (Btw. the name of Mr. Jain I've read the first time some hours ago.) I know especially Martin as someone who never hesitates to help with his enormous knowledge of the matter. We all on this list know his knowledgeable and engaged postings, quite often flavoured with a good pinch of humour. If I'd be a member of IMCA, such an event would make me think about whether it wouldn't be time to leave this association too. With regret, best regards, Matthias - Original Message - From: siegfr...@haberer-meteorite.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: i...@imcamail.de Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 12:28 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kicked out of IMCAfor illegal activities Dear List, I would like to express my regret that Martin Altmann, Stefan Ralew, and Greg Catterton are no longer members of the I.M.C.A. Martin Altmann ist one of the fairest and most reliable persons I got to know in my life. I also have great respect for his expert knowledge which he acquired on many subjects. My regret is deep. Best regards Siegfried __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com
Re: [meteorite-list] New type of fake moldavite coming soon?
How about a specific gravity test? Chris. Spratt Victoria, BC __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for theirillegal behavior
consumers protection. By law we would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer returns it within 3 weeks. Warm regards, Naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde gepr¸ft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6344 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6344 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde gepr�ft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] A Heads-Up: Interesting article on Tagish Lake in S T
Hello List, In the Sky Tel, Sep 2011 issue (p.16), there is an interesting article in the News Notes section on the 'Tagish Lake Meteorite's Organic Brew'. The authors' conclusions are quite provocative, so, get your copy if interested in finding out what is so provocative ;-) Cheers, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior
Hello Naveen and Listers From what I have seen and heard from your posts so far is that this is an unfortunate situation that has taken place. In a perfect world this would have gone differently, but we don’t live in that type of world. From what I can tell Naveen you had received two expensive meteorites that weren’t polished and from that you felt they were low quality or fakes. Let me assure you that the two X IMCA members you did business with are very well respected people in the community and know there stuff and don’t deal in fakes. Now for meteorites not being polished doesn’t make them less in value or fake but in some respect make the value more depending if they have fusion crust or if they are a whole stone. As you collect more you will learn that people collect with different intensions. Me, if I could, I would only collect meteorites that are in fragment form that hadn’t been cut into a slice or polished. I would rather the meteorite be true to its natural state when it was found, but I can’t always collect that way cause of budget issues and sometimes you can’t find meteorite in the form you want them. Other people collect whole slices and they want them to be polished on both sides to a mirror finish. Each collector has his or her own way of collecting from NWAs, historic, hammer stones, or only meteorite falls, or to found meteorites. There is no right or wrong way to collect a meteorite, but just because a meteorite isn’t polished doesn’t mean it’s a lower quality or fake, it just means that some people rather have the meteorite be true to its original state when found. But all hope isn’t lost. People every day have their meteorites cut in half and polished or cleaned to bring out other qualities of the meteorite. Again it is unfortunate what has taken place, but I again would like to stress the two people in question sell high quality meteorites and for the most part the meteorite community is a safe place to collect, trade, sell, learn and talk about meteorites. I can say this, take your time with future sales and learn more about what you’re going to buy. Make sure that once you do the sale that you can live with the meteorite without second thoughts if you should have bought the meteorite or not because some people have a no return policy. That’s doesn’t mean that it’s a fake or low quality it’s the nature of the business with selling a collecting meteorites. But if it’s a fake that’s a different story but be careful when suggesting that because that can to cause problems with both parties and in some cause can be deemed as defamation of character. All in all I can say that collecting meteorites is wonderful way to spend your hard earned money because I can say I do it day in and day out. As for the situation you’re in, I hope something can be worked out. As for the rest of us we are great people. We all have one thing in common is that we all enjoy meteorites and welcome to the addiction :) Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behaviorNaveen Jain naveen at intelius.com Tue Aug 2 11:09:22 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] AD: My Annual 50% Off Sale On EVERYTHING! -August 1st to 7th ! Enjoy! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Michael, Please help me get this resolved if you can. I am open to anything that’s just and fair. I am not looking forward to filing lawsuit against them but simply look to them to fulfill their obligations. I think many in FBI will think of what they did as cross border Mail and Wire fraud but I am not willing to go down that route quite yet. Thanks for your offer to resolve the dispute. IMCA board members tried very hard to get them to see the light but sight of large money completely blinded them. Warm regards, Naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteoriteguy.com [mailto:mike at meteoriteguy.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 7:48 AM To: Naveen Jain Cc: Matthias Bärmann; MexicoDoug; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior I like martin and stefan. I am Sure this can still be peacfully resolved for all parties. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Aug 2, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Naveen Jain naveen at intelius.com wrote: Absolutely Yes. Here is the email thread with the unconditional refund policy. I specifically asked Martin in an email thread below after having discussed with him on the phone previously about the refund policy. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list
[meteorite-list] Another Heads-Up: Again S T
In the August 2011 issue, pp. 20-27: Pummeling the Planets: - Humans have evolved - Clues from the Moon - Apollo samples aren't enough - It's Neptune's fault - What about Mars? - Evidence under our noses - Solving the puzzle - Did the Late Heavy Bombardment (LHB) flame out or fizzle out? Best wishes, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behavior
Mark, Stefan and Martin have completely refused the refund despite their written email promise of full refund. I tried very hard to work out a solution with them. IMCA board members tried the same after thoroughly investigating the complaint. It’s clear that Stefan and Martin were blinded by their greed. I am hopeful that you and others will get them to see the light and bring them back to ethical behavior. I have no idea why someone will refuse a refund after their promise unless they sold goods that were so bad that they are unlikely to find another sucker for it. Warm regards, naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius --- From: Mark's Meteorites [mailto:m...@meteorites.cc] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 9:03 AM To: Matthias Bärmann Cc: Naveen Jain; MexicoDoug; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behavior To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ•˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ•˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for theirillegal behavior
To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ•˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behavior
My English is unfortunately not perfect and I either don't want to give the gobshite, but as this causa is serious enough: Mark wrote: (...) either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. I don't believe that this is really what you wanted to express, Mark. Apart from this I've noticed here on the list the quotation of Martin Altmann, assuring refund in the case that pieces wouldn't be accepted from the recipient. I have n o t noticed, as a second step, any quotation of Martin actually refusing to give the asked refund or arguing about why not. Best regards, Matthias - Original Message - From: Mark's Meteorites m...@meteorites.cc To: Matthias Bärmann majbaerm...@web.de Cc: nav...@intelius.com; 'MexicoDoug' mexicod...@aim.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behavior To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ•˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6344 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6344 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde gepr�ft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Speculation on big lunar deal
Hi Naveen and List, It is clearly tempting for list members to opine on this rather sizable business transaction since both the buyer and -- likely more so on this List -- the sellers are extremely well-known, well-liked and well-respected. It seems unlikely in the extreme that the meteorites in dispute are not what Stefan and Martin claimed, and if I've read the chain of e-mails correctly, Naveen is not disputing that the specimens are meteorites, nor does he appear to be questioning that they are lunaites. Rather, the dissatisfaction is over the perceived quality of the specimens. Now, I have not seen the pictures, let alone the meteorites themselves, and in any case many aspects of quality are in the eyes of the beholder. But the bottom line is that Naveen felt that what he received did not match his expectations based on the pictures he saw, which is why he wanted to exercise the refund option. Given the considerable sum involved, it would not surprise me if a good percentage of that capital had to go to a third party in order to secure the big ticket items. (I know Chladni's Heirs does a decent amount of meteorite business, but it seems unlikely that they'd have those kind of reserves on hand.) Continuing this line of speculation, it is equally unlikely that the third party has as generous a return policy as Martin and Stefan do. (This is probably being kind: I doubt ANY such return policy would exist.) But if all of this is true, then surely Stefan and Martin would have been forced to protect themselves by having an alternate return policy in place for unusually big ticket items -- especially any that they don't actually hold in inventory. Call it a restocking fee or what-have-you. But to reiterate, this is all speculation. We don't know the original source of the lunar meteorites in question (presumably someone in Morocco), nor the circumstances and expenses incurred by Martin and Stefan to procure them. But I'd like to believe that given the collective intelligence of this group, an amicable arrangement can be reached. Cheers, Rob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Hi Mark, you wrote, ... Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. It's not necessarily that easy , if you arrange a deal with two centrepieces and some by-catch and the seller has reduced the prices of the by-catch dramatically to offer an interesting total; to give back the two centrepieces and ask for money back could be a misuse of any give back agreements Please note, I used the terms if and could, I'm just speculating. Best greetings Andi - -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark's Meteorites Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 18:05 An: Matthias Bärmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; nav...@intelius.com; 'MexicoDoug' Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ.˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Hello Mr Jain, No disrespect to you, but I'm still wondering why you think the 2 meteorites you wanted to return was garbage? I understand if you're not happy with them, then you are entitled to send them back for a refund, but maybe in your inexperience those 2 pieces may be highly desirable otherwise? No, I'm sorry for my rudeness, what I'm trying to say is why you did not like the 2 meteorites you wanted to return? What was it that makes you think they were not what was represented? We haven't heard from Martin but It looks to me he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Carl2 Mark wrote: To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks... Shawn wrote: ...Now for meteorites not being polished doesn’t make them less in value or fake but in some respect make the value more depending if they have fusion crust or if they... __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Andi, I was given unconditional guarantee to be able to return item within 3 weeks. I contacted them within hours of receiving the package. Each item was priced individually and I was offered approx. 12%-13% discount on the package of meteorites. IMCA looked at all these details when they offered 3 options to Martin Altman and Stefan to resolve the issues. Essentially, they adjusted the price of each item on pro-rated prices based on the discount percentage. Is there someone on the list who is willing to help the newcomer resolve this dispute with Stefan and Martin. IMCA board has looked at the complaint and facts and made the recommendation. I am comfortable with any of the 3 recommendation made by IMCA board. Any thoughts? naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Andreas Gren Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:26 AM To: Mark's Meteorites Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour Hi Mark, you wrote, ... Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. It's not necessarily that easy , if you arrange a deal with two centrepieces and some by-catch and the seller has reduced the prices of the by-catch dramatically to offer an interesting total; to give back the two centrepieces and ask for money back could be a misuse of any give back agreements Please note, I used the terms if and could, I'm just speculating. Best greetings Andi - -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark's Meteorites Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 18:05 An: Matthias Bärmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; nav...@intelius.com; 'MexicoDoug' Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ.˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Carl, No disrespect to you but its beside the point on why I didnt like these meteorites. I can't tell you what you should or shouldnt like. I was offered unconditional refund and I feel that some meteorites didn't meet my expectation. Think about it - Why would Stefan and Martin not take these back (as per their obligation and terms of sale) if these meteorites were really that great. Are they afraid that there may not be another sucker for these not so wonderful meteorites. There is no justification for committing fraud which is to offer the terms of sale with no intention of honoring them. naveen From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Carl 's Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:36 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour Hello Mr Jain, No disrespect to you, but I'm still wondering why you think the 2 meteorites you wanted to return was garbage? I understand if you're not happy with them, then you are entitled to send them back for a refund, but maybe in your inexperience those 2 pieces may be highly desirable otherwise? No, I'm sorry for my rudeness, what I'm trying to say is why you did not like the 2 meteorites you wanted to return? What was it that makes you think they were not what was represented? We haven't heard from Martin but It looks to me he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Carl2 Mark wrote: To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks... Shawn wrote: ...Now for meteorites not being polished doesnt make them less in value or fake but in some respect make the value more depending if they have fusion crust or if they... __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Sorry again if I had hit a nerve. I understand you are entitled for a refund if you are not happy. I was just wondering why those meteorites did not meet your expectations? Size, color, polished,...? Carl2 Carl, No disrespect to you but it’s beside the point on why I didn’t like these meteorites. I can't tell you what you should or shouldn’t like. I was offered unconditional refund and I feel that some meteorites didn't meet my expectation. Think about it - Why would Stefan and Martin not take these back (as per their obligation and terms of sale) if these meteorites were really that great. Are they afraid that there may not be another sucker for these not so wonderful meteorites. There is no justification for committing fraud which is to offer the terms of sale with no intention of honoring them. naveen __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Trying to contact Aerolite and Suzanne
I've been trying to contact Suzanne at Aerolite since Friday both by email and phone. I've received no response so far via email and everytime I call I just get Geoff's voice mail greeting and then I leave my message. The office apparently hasn't been manned ( or womanned ;-) ) since Thursday. Now when I call I get a message stating the voice mailbox is full! Has anyone else had a similar experience? I was in the middle of a transaction with Aerolite since early last week when I sent them a package and all of the sudden there appears to be no one around. The package has been waiting for them to pick up at the post office since Thursday, but the post says it is still waiting for pickup. Thanks, Mal __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Naveen, I'll make three more observations then quit on this one. 1) You've been through the channels with IMCA - according to your email compilation, you complained to IMCA (13th July) three days after a note where Martin agreed that a refund was in order (10th July). Regardless of whether people think this counts as trying very hard to resolve the issue, the IMCA acted, and both Martin and Stephan are now no longer members. IMCA involvement is at an end. 2) I draw attention to the amendment to the subject heading I made earlier in the thread. I don't like reading emails which use terms like 'fraud', 'scam', 'systematically engaged in mail and wire fraud', 'one of their many victims', 'illegal and unethical behaviour', etc. As far as I'm concerned, they are allegations and nothing more. 3) The IMCA has no connection with this mailing list. You're not going to get this issue resolved by further emails to the MetList - we're not the police, we're collectors, scientists, students and traders. Ultimately this is going to be resolved, or not, between yourself and the sellers. Mark __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Have to voice my agreement with Mark regarding these allegations flying around.Seems to me they are bordering on the libelous. shocked and dismayed sales of all Mars and Moon boxes hereby suspended until further notice. Jim Brady I.M.C.A. 2424 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Speculation on big lunar deal
But I'd like to believe that given the collective intelligence of this group, an amicable arrangement can be reached. I am absolutely with Rob here! And especially I also concur with the personal statements of my fellow countrymen Matthias and Siegfried, and with the comments of my fellow Austrian collector friend Herbert made earlier. The arguments of the IMCA board member´s decision should be made much more transparent, imho, in addition to what has already been said by it´s president, Anne Black. I would also like to read not only the re-iterated personal comments from one of the conflicting parties, but also from the opposing side. Yes, this is better done on the IMCA list, essentially, but it should not be confined to just that place since I believe this is a matter of more general interest to a wider audience, as almost everyone of us meteorite friends, independent of being a member of that association, is involved in dealing, trading, buying, exchanging - all sorts of transaction which are expected to be based on integrity and seriosity of the participants. A sad day... Alex Berlin/Germany __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for theirillegal behavior
to refund everything to them if they have problem returning 2 out of 9 orders. Here is the email from Martin Altman: From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM To: Naveen Jain Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. Hi Naveen, As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily return any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full refund. Nja.happily. perhaps not :-) ; But of course that is our business standard. And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer returns it within 3 weeks. Warm regards, Naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde gepr¸ft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6344 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6344 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde gepr�ft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
I didn't know there was a quality to a meteorite. A meteorite is a meteorite is a meteorite. They are what they are. We don't have cheap ones made in China, high quality ones made in Germany.Come on. Certainly there are prettier ones, neater ones, and odd ones but nowhere have I ever seen there could be a quality issue. Seems Walmart has ruined another industry, take back anything for no reason. -- Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC IMCA#9052 http://www.facebook.com/Stuart.McDaniel.No.1 Naveen Jain nav...@intelius.com wrote: = Andi, I was given unconditional guarantee to be able to return item within 3 weeks. I contacted them within hours of receiving the package. Each item was priced individually and I was offered approx. 12%-13% discount on the package of meteorites. IMCA looked at all these details when they offered 3 options to Martin Altman and Stefan to resolve the issues. Essentially, they adjusted the price of each item on pro-rated prices based on the discount percentage. Is there someone on the list who is willing to help the newcomer resolve this dispute with Stefan and Martin. IMCA board has looked at the complaint and facts and made the recommendation. I am comfortable with any of the 3 recommendation made by IMCA board. Any thoughts? naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Andreas Gren Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:26 AM To: Mark's Meteorites Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour Hi Mark, you wrote, ... Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. It's not necessarily that easy , if you arrange a deal with two centrepieces and some by-catch and the seller has reduced the prices of the by-catch dramatically to offer an interesting total; to give back the two centrepieces and ask for money back could be a misuse of any give back agreements Please note, I used the terms if and could, I'm just speculating. Best greetings Andi - -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark's Meteorites Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 18:05 An: Matthias Bärmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; nav...@intelius.com; 'MexicoDoug' Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ.˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Trying to contact Aerolite and Suzanne
Hi Mal: Patience my friend. This has happened to me, but not to worry, they will be back. Remember that Geoff has just got back from a 3 week shooting trip, and has a lot of catching up to do. They are probably swamped doing their Meteorite Men things right now. Cheers Craig Moody IMCA 6276 Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 14:20:17 -0400 From: magbi...@lowcountry.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Trying to contact Aerolite and Suzanne I've been trying to contact Suzanne at Aerolite since Friday both by email and phone. I've received no response so far via email and everytime I call I just get Geoff's voice mail greeting and then I leave my message. The office apparently hasn't been manned ( or womanned ;-) ) since Thursday. Now when I call I get a message stating the voice mailbox is full! Has anyone else had a similar experience? I was in the middle of a transaction with Aerolite since early last week when I sent them a package and all of the sudden there appears to be no one around. The package has been waiting for them to pick up at the post office since Thursday, but the post says it is still waiting for pickup. Thanks, Mal __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Hi Andi Nadeen But Naveen, someone has to speak for the meteorites. They are truly what appear to be world class specimens. To say anything less of them doesn't sit right with me as a reason for the return. Why a return deal cannot be worked out I haven't a clue - it smells too much like the dealer wars with which we are all familiar, and the dark side of this incredibly fulfilling avocation. The IMCA quotations seemed to indicate that the parties were unwilling to negotiate anything. Zilcho. If you had the no-question returns' clause I completely agree with you. I did notice that some of the material in question might have been secured by the sellers, if I recall, at the time, in a shrewd race with other prominent and respected dealers that were incensed to have lost first dibbs on that fantastic material. So it is starting to sound to me like payback time in a very different vein. What will really be a tragedy here is if both sides simply were not on the same wavelength regarding the terms of the deal. It has happened before. I would not mess with Naveen. I would work something out with him, even if it put me at a hardship and don't we all wish we could wind the clock back and be sure no deal were made. Andi you are absolutely right about cherry picking returns of package deals. But wait, ... we also need to note that Naveen ramped up the demand for a full refund for everything ... and that raises the stakes and eliminates this objection. I still can't believe these guys would sell themselves out, to me it is unthinkable. Other dealers may be quick to take advantage of such a situation, in fact I would too if becoming an indentured servant to transfer those lunar gems into my possession were possible ;-). The only clue I picked up is from Naveen's information about the refund request denial - something along the lines that he wasn't a simple collector but rather a business. The email that was submitted referring to refund policy seems damning if true, but, we lack the context. If I follow that line of reasoning, and speculate at face value, it would suggest to me that the guys viewed the deal as dealer-to-dealer or dealer-to-professional for whatever reason, where the refund rules are usually quite different. Only the unbiased terms between the parties can speak for themselves, and personally I think the Europeans are outflanked by their American colleagues in some aspects when it comes to such boxing matches and I wish the sellers the best as well as meeting their obligations, whatever those were specific to this transaction. I am still wondering if there is a cash flow crunch caused by sending money to Morocco to release the stones and causing insolvency. Stranger things have happened and who am I to say: the point is that there is a dispute. We've only heard one side of the dispute, including the interpretation of the vote. This entire situation is terrible for the meteorite community - that is what I feel. The IMCA vote doesn't seem to question authenticity, not quality, and details are not complete as a board member posted. It does say that the members were pressured to negotiate and then resigned instead. It doesn't say that they were kicked-out, though it certainly looks like some pressure was put upon them to do more than they were willing or able. Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Andreas Gren i...@meteoritenhaus.de To: 'Mark's Meteorites' m...@meteorites.cc Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, Aug 2, 2011 1:25 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour Hi Mark, you wrote, ... Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. It's not necessarily that easy , if you arrange a deal with two centrepieces and some by-catch and the seller has reduced the prices of the by-catch dramatically to offer an interesting total; to give back the two centrepieces and ask for money back could be a misuse of any give back agreements Please note, I used the terms if and could, I'm just speculating. Best greetings Andi - -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark's Meteorites Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 18:05 An: Matthias Bärmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; nav...@intelius.com; 'MexicoDoug' Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behavior
Dear Naveen and List This is quite surreal... but no, not surreal anymore in our times. First, Naveen, no matter how big your wealth is, how can you buy anything for such an amount without seeing it, touching it... ?! (if this shocks you... read some Albert Einstein thoughts...) You could have flown to Europe or invited them to US for pennies in regard to the amount of the deal you are talking about ! I know, there was the refund policy ! Nevertheless... I am flabbergasted ! I don't know personally the 2 Germans involved, but being a follower on this list for many years, Martin seems all but far away from a crook. Now 2 OTs, and this in the same pursuit as yours in ethical manners and philosophy: (I could have sent you these questions privately, but as Anne Black said, you put her private emails on this list, without her knowledge and/or consent, so be it...) 1- how do you combine hoping to mine resources from the Moon (your Moon Express adventure) and touting yourself a philanthropist ? Sounds contradictory to me. Please let me know where I am wrong on this. 2- having lived many years in USA, and looking at your other creation, Intelius, Why can't I see what information is collected on me there, without having to pay for it ? Is that ethical ? Not sure about it... ultimately... Anyway, I hope your matter will be resolved, but would very much like you to answer my 2 last points. (privately or on the List) Thank you... Ethically yours... Michael Brosse __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behavior
I know there must be another side to this story. I sure would like to hear Stefan and Martin's response, though I can understand their reticence to speak up, under threat of litigation. I won't add to the speculation, except to note that the overwhelming number of List members posting in defense of Chladni's Heirs speaks volumes about their reputation in the community. Doug Ross __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Request for Luc Labenne's email
Dear List, If someone has a direct email to Luc Labenne, can you please send it to me OFF LIST? I've been trying to contact him through his site, but it is not working properly. Thanks in advance! - Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com and join us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Meteorites1 IMCA #5765 - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Thread regarding IMCA members
Good Afternoon; I think it's time to discontinue this thread. Hopefully the parties involved can bring the issue to conclusion, but I don't think that anymore speculation on this List will do anyone any good. Thanks, -Art Meteorite Central __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behavior
I was going to hold my tongue about recent issues, including this one. I offer only this quote, and make no additional comment, input or opinion other than all of this is very disturbing in such a tiny community... Character is like a tree and reputation like its shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing. ABRAHAM LINCOLN, Lincoln's Own Stories -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 - Original Message - From: Doug Ross d...@dougross.net To: Meteorite List List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2011 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behavior I know there must be another side to this story. I sure would like to hear Stefan and Martin's response, though I can understand their reticence to speak up, under threat of litigation. I won't add to the speculation, except to note that the overwhelming number of List members posting in defense of Chladni's Heirs speaks volumes about their reputation in the community. Doug Ross __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] No Nemesis, yes; No periodicity, no.
Hi Paul - Raup and Sepowski's ELE data shows a roughly 26 million year periodicity. As far as Earth craters go, aside from weathering, 70% of the planet is covered with water. Aside from that, there are many suspected structures which have not been examined. For example, there are three at the YD horizon, where impact is now accepted to have happened based on nano-diamond deposits and iridium levels. As far as the smaller impacts go... For a long time it has been assumed that after the LPBEs, there was a lessening of inner solar system accretion with time. This study would appear to indicate that some gravitational effects are just now coming into play. I hope that new studies of Mars' craters and those on other bodies will finally lead to a general accretion model in which asteroidal and cometary impacts rates will be determined with some certainty. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] No Nemesis No periodicity
As has been discussed on this list before, this theory died well over a decade ago, both because it is pretty much impossible for Nemesis to exist, despite some wild machinations by some to try to keep the idea going. The idea of periodicity disappears if anyone spends more than 5 minutes investigating it for themselves. In the last 600 million years there have been 18 Mass and minor extinction events. Many of these took about 15 million years to occur from start to finish but a few took only 1 million or less or took as long as 42 million years from start to finish. The average period between all of these events is 30.6 million years, but the average is not typical. Some occurred in about a million years after the previous one, but other extinction events happened as much as 80 million years apart. There is no Nemesis There is no periodicity in the timing of extinction events. We've been studying the surface of Mars by spacecraft for nearly 50 years and had the first orbiters were in place 35 years ago and we have a pretty good handle on impact rates, despite the single note continuously played by a small group of tooters. -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] by popular request...............
and I am sorry Art, but this is my last word on the subject. Hello, I would like to make a few things perfectly clear here: 1. The Board was presented with, and discussed only, a complaint regarding a refund dispute. Nothing else. Nothing more. 2. Martin and Stefan resigned for personal and business reasons. 3. and again Greg Catterton's leaving is a completely separate matter. Also could we please keep posts on the IMCA mailing list from spilling over to the MetList (MeteoriteCentral). This would be very helpful. Anne M. Black http://www.impactika.com/ impact...@aol.com President, I.M.C.A. Inc. http://www.imca.cc/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Trying to contact Aerolite and Suzanne
Mal Bishop wrote: I've been trying to contact Suzanne at Aerolite since Friday both by email and phone. I've received no response so far via email and everytime I call I just get Geoff's voice mail greeting and then I leave my message. Dear Mal: Sorry for the slight delay in getting back to you. I've been on the road for five weeks filming Season Three of MM and just returned after a 23-hour travel day. My staff have been working so hard on multiple new projects that I suggested we all take a long weekend, as nobody here has had much time off since . . . well, the gem show back in February. Hope you don't mind : ) It's extremely unusual for us to close the office and amazing how quickly that voice mailbox gets filled up. Everything is fine with your order and I hope you enjoy the new piece, which is rather spectacular. Thank you for your continued patronage. Hoping all is well with you, Geoff www.aerolite.org www.meteoritemen.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
