GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

chnical at openehr.org Subject: Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) On 15/12/2010 00:57, pablo pazos wrote: Hi Thomas, ... You describe a very big picture and sounds logic, so

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi! On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 00:30, Thomas Beale ?wrote: > On 10/12/2010 08:49, Erik Sundvall wrote: >> If the already present annotation mechanism in templates is powerful enough >> (Do you think it is, Koray,?Pablo and others?) > > to be clear, do you mean the annotations documented in the ADL 1

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 20/12/2010 12:05, Erik Sundvall wrote: > Hi! > > On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 00:30, Thomas Beale > wrote: >> On 10/12/2010 08:49, Erik Sundvall wrote: >>> If the already present annotation mechanism in templates is powerful enough >>> (Do you think it is, Koray, Pablo and others?) >> to be clear,

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) Hi All I sense Thomas is right. If you look at the exam archetypes there is a pattern of unlimited normal statements. This allows anything to be said but for it to be classified as normal even if it is text. There is work to do on

New requirements from endoscopy (was Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs))

Hi Tom, I'll try to make a few things clear. I'll chop off parts of my original message for better readability. . However clinical findings, as in our case, essentially require to be depicted as unknown or absent explicitly. We have initially thought we could solve the issue by using flavo

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

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GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 15/12/2010 00:57, pablo pazos wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > ... > > > You describe a very big picture and sounds logic, so we'll have: > > * Level 1: archetypes (for model complete data sets about a > concept, general and specialized ones) > * Level 2: structural templates (for local

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 15/12/2010 00:57, pablo pazos wrote: Hi Thomas, ... You describe a very big picture and sounds logic, so we'll have: Level 1: archetypes (for model complete data sets about a concept, general and

New requirements from endoscopy (was Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs))

hi Koray Unknown <> Indeterminate. (though they overlap) Generally, this is not really an endoscopy requirement. I've seen it come up in all sorts of contexts. (for instance, the Australias structured pathology reports). Even in the case of a list of medications: you can assert that the patient *

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 15/12/2010 12:17, Koray Atalag wrote: > > Hi Tom, yes you nailed it...Actually this is exactly what we do at the > moment but uncomfortable with this approach. I think it'd be great if > the formalism handles this common pattern without such a workaround > which is repeating all over. > > Che

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi Hugh, The Exclusion archetype makes sense at a diagnosis or procedure level but does not work well for detailed clinical findings. In the case of the pathology archetypes it would result in the creation of scores of Exclusion archetypes and umanageable templates. The problem Koray raises is a

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 15/12/2010 11:40, Hugh Leslie wrote: > Hi Koray > > One way that we are handling this kind of issue is with a separate > exclusion archetype. So for adverse reactions for instance, if you > want to say that this person has no known allergies, you use a > separate archetype called an exclusio

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

discussions Subject: Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) Hi everyone, for those interested, my full thesis is available here: http://www.sourcefusion.nl/thesis/Dissertation-HvdL.pdf A link on the openEHR website to this PDF is appreciated. Sorry for not participating in the

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

during modelling. It looks like these are 'physical' properties and not 'man-made' concepts. Hope this helps to elaborate things... Cheers, -koray & hong yul From: openehr-technical-bounces at openehr.org [mailto:openehr-technical-boun...@openehr.org] On Behalf Of Thomas B

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 10/12/2010 08:49, Erik Sundvall wrote: > Hi! > > A very interesting discussion, thanks to everybody here! Great with > all references too! > > On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 16:26, pablo pazos > wrote: > > Maybe if we change the terminology to GUI Templates and op

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi Thomas, Correct me if I'm wrong: If templates can specialize templates in several generations of inheritance/specialisation (This is the case, right?), then we could use the same basic annotation formalism for different purposes in different layers, only the annot

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi everyone, for those interested, my full thesis is available here: http://www.sourcefusion.nl/thesis/Dissertation-HvdL.pdf A link on the openEHR website to this PDF is appreciated. Sorry for not participating in the discussion, but my current job has me swamped with work and deadlines. With

New requirements from endoscopy (was Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs))

On 14/12/2010 10:44, Koray Atalag wrote: > > Hi Tom, here is our response: > > We have so far came across two issues which we believe should be > handled at the clinical modelling levels (i.e. RM, archetypes and > templates). These have to do with the structure and semantics of the > clinical in

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

ehalf Of Thilo Schuler Sent: Monday, 13 December 2010 7:20 p.m. To: For openEHR technical discussions Subject: Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) Hi everybody, I got permission to publish the MedInfo paper and its successor mentioned below. You can find it here (last r

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi everybody, I got permission to publish the MedInfo paper and its successor mentioned below. You can find it here (last row of table): http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/resources/MedInfo+2007+-+Brisbane+Australia Cheers, Thilo After that Helma, her supervisor, Rong and I published a very >

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi Koray, Erik, Pablo, Pariya and other GUI interested These are very exciting times for me. I have been interested in openEHR GUIs and GUI generation since the first experiments that the co-authors and I did prior to publishing the MIE 2006 paper that Koray mentioned. For those still interested I

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi Thilo, Is great to see such enthusiasm on the subject of GUI definition & generation (subject I love). I see we have many people interested in the subject too. I think your work in exploring tools like ours, is of great importance, because without these explorations and trials we could not

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

enehr-technical-boun...@openehr.org] On Behalf Of pablo pazos Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2010 7:39 a.m. To: openehr technical Subject: RE: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) Hi Ian, If I understand what Thomas said "I would suggest that the GUI templates just reference paths fo

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

ember 2010 7:39 a.m. To: openehr technical Subject: RE: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) Hi Ian, If I understand what Thomas said "I would suggest that the GUI templates just reference paths found in the openEHR template", the paths in a GUI Template will come

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi! A very interesting discussion, thanks to everybody here! Great with all references too! On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 16:26, pablo pazos wrote: > Maybe if we change the terminology to GUI Templates and openEHR Templates, > we will not have these problems. > Or perhaps "GUI focused templates" and

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 09/12/2010 21:37, Koray Atalag wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've read similar work before starting with our design and found > Thilo's prior work very relevant and well researched. This MIEUR 2006 > paper describes a new layer of GUI model using Mozilla XUL -- an XML > based open web layout standar

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

s.beale at oceaninformatics.com > To: openehr-technical at openehr.org > Subject: Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) > > On 08/12/2010 15:26, pablo pazos wrote: > > May be if we change the terminology to GUI Templates and openEHR Templates, > we will not have

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 08/12/2010 15:26, pablo pazos wrote: > May be if we change the terminology to GUI Templates and openEHR > Templates, we will not have these problems. > > I think the only thing in common of those two type of template is that > they reference a set of archetypes to do something. > * > * I woul

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

ca.blogspot.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos > From: Ian.McNicoll at oceaninformatics.com > Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 17:30:38 + > Subject: Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) > To: openehr-technical at openehr.org > > Hi Pablo, > > In both

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 08/12/2010 14:32, Ian McNicoll wrote: > Hi Koray, > > I agree with Thomas here, Koray, but I take your point about the > separation into a further layer represents added potential development > complexity. well... software engineering history would say otherwise. Where a concept is needed you

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi Koray, I agree with Thomas here, Koray, but I take your point about the separation into a further layer represents added potential development complexity. I think we should expect tools to handle this in the same way that a complex development environment like Visual Studio handles various laye

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 06/12/2010 21:06, Koray Atalag wrote: > > For us this was a no brainer because I think ALL pure GUI stuff should go to > Templates. I have explained my reasoning in a previous message but shortly > archetypes and templates are all about information capture and validation > (i.e. which data it

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 15:41:11 + From: thomas.be...@oceaninformatics.com To: openehr-technical at openehr.org Subject: Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) On 08/12/2010 15:26, pablo pazos wrote

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

://uy.linkedin.com/in/pablopazosgutierrez Blog: http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 14:14:04 + From: thomas.be...@oceaninformatics.com To: openehr-technical at openehr.org Subject: Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

:) -koray Skype: atalagk -Original Message- From: openehr-technical-bounces at openehr.org [mailto:openehr-technical-boun...@openehr.org] On Behalf Of Ian McNicoll Sent: Tuesday, 7 December 2010 1:14 a.m. To: For openEHR technical discussions Subject: Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Wa

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi Olof, I agree but I think there are some directives that are actually not purely GUI directives but which say something meaningful about the underlying information. For instance Koray's directive isCoreConcept (g): "This is an abstract concept; but we can say that Core Concepts are real-world

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

ces at openehr.org<mailto:openehr-technical-bounces at openehr.org> [mailto:openehr-technical-boun...@openehr.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Beale Sent: Thursday, 2 December 2010 2:45 p.m. To: openehr-technical at openehr.org<mailto:openehr-technical at openehr.org> Subject: Re: GUI-directiv

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 06/12/2010 10:36, Olof Torgersson wrote: > 5 dec 2010 kl. 18.04 skrev Thomas Beale: > > > Returning to the original topic of what should go into a template, I > would say that this statement supports that template should not > contain GUI-directives, but that such information should go into a

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

5 dec 2010 kl. 18.04 skrev Thomas Beale: On 05/12/2010 16:49, Tim Cook wrote: I personally think it makes it simpler for everyone to think of templates as only being used for 1. slot-filling 2. removal of unneeded optional data points and 3. tightening of some leaf value constraints, nearly al

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 11:56 +0100, Olof Torgersson wrote: > > > In the openEHR case there is a specific domain and also specifications > (archetypes/templates) which you make the task easier than trying to > do it generally Exactly, we have some researchers here doing exactly that work. I am ce

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 05/12/2010 16:49, Tim Cook wrote: > >> Archetypes contain slots; templates fill them and remove unwanted >> archetype data points (generally most of them in any given template). >> It is a matter for discussion whether templates should ever be allowed >> to add new data points the way an archety

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 03/12/2010 22:04, David Moner wrote: > Thanks Thomas. I will resume the reasoning that brought us here: > "in some cases" templates will also be shared together with > archetypes, then, in my opinion, they should not incorporate GUI > related stuff and be only about data constraints. I would re

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi Tom, On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 12:28 +, Thomas Beale wrote: > The current design of ADL 1.5 is that template ids will be declared in > the data (since they are just like archetype ids) - see > http://www.openehr.org/svn/specification/TRUNK/publishing/architecture/am/knowledge_id_system.pdf > >

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 03/12/2010 22:21, Tim Cook wrote: > Hi Tom, > > On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 21:48 +, Thomas Beale wrote: >> the general idea has always been that data can always be interpreted >> by a receiver using just the archetypes declared in the data. I >> believe this will continue to be a reliable assumpt

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Thanks Thomas. I will resume the reasoning that brought us here: "in some cases" templates will also be shared together with archetypes, then, in my opinion, they should not incorporate GUI related stuff and be only about data constraints. David 2010/12/3, Thomas Beale : > On 03/12/2010 21:01, Da

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

2010/12/3, Tim Cook wrote: > > #1. You do not revise data in a health record. You version it with > additional information. You are right, I was not precise enough. > > #2. Any well designed archetype / template combination is going to use > the same 'data structure'. Irregardless of the avai

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 03/12/2010 21:01, David Moner wrote: > >> #3. The templates you use should only restrict data entry. It should >> not filter existing data of the same structure. If it does; there goes >> interoperability. Along with the entire premise for the use of and >> purpose of archetypes. > Interestin

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi Tom, On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 21:48 +, Thomas Beale wrote: > the general idea has always been that data can always be interpreted > by a receiver using just the archetypes declared in the data. I > believe this will continue to be a reliable assumption into the > future. So this begs the que

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

it is now time to talk for yourself ? > don?t be shy! And people don?t hesitate to ask all your hard questions... > > *From:*openehr-technical-bounces at openehr.org > [mailto:openehr-technical-bounces at openehr.org] *On Behalf Of *Thomas Beale > *Sent:* Thursday, 2 Dec

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

opazosgutierrez Blog: http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos > From: Ian.McNicoll at oceaninformatics.com > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 10:17:57 + > Subject: Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) > To: timothywayne.cook at

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi, From your response, my understanding is that one can generate such a GUI in OSHIP, but is also needs manual adjustments to reach the ideal GUI design. I'm not sure if I understand your last phrase. Do you mean considering design guidelines while generating GUIs? Best Regards Pariya MSc; PhD

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Dear Tim, Thank you for your response Could you please provide me with more detail about this? Would it need manual adjustment of any css/style file or would it be totally dynamic? Is it based on the templates, archetypes, or both? I am trying to summarize the answers from different contributors

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi Tim, I do tend to agree with you that GUI generation can be useful as a startpoint, but that most real-world applications will demand much a richer GUI that will need subsequent, manual intervention. There are 2 other areas where auto-GUI generation can be useful. One is in the area of user-de

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 10:45 +0100, Pariya Kashfi wrote: > > I'm not sure if I understand your last phrase. > Do you mean considering design guidelines while generating GUI Yes. -Tim > > > > > > On Dec 3, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Tim Cook wrote: > > > On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 10:21 +0100, Par

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On Fri, 2010-12-03 at 10:21 +0100, Pariya Kashfi wrote: > Dear Tim, > > Thank you for your response > Could you please provide me with more detail about this? > Would it need manual adjustment of any css/style file or would it be > totally dynamic? Well, you can generate dynamic UIs; but I really

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

2010/12/2, Tim Cook > > Hmmm,I am very interested in hearing about a use case where these > templates are 'needed' to 'fully interpret' the data. > > Thanks, > Tim > Maybe I do not have the knowledge to give a valid clinical example but it is reasonable to think that constraining an archetype in t

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi David, Thanks for the reply. On Thu, 2010-12-02 at 22:54 +0100, David Moner wrote: > Maybe I do not have the knowledge to give a valid clinical example but > it is reasonable to think that constraining an archetype in the way a > template does can influence the interpretation of the data. Wha

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

-technical-bounces at openehr.org [mailto:openehr-technical-boun...@openehr.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Beale Sent: Thursday, 2 December 2010 2:45 p.m. To: openehr-technical at openehr.org Subject: Re: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) On 02/12/2010 01:33, Tim Cook wrote: On Thu

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On 02/12/2010 01:33, Tim Cook wrote: > On Thu, 2010-12-02 at 00:50 +, Thomas Beale wrote: > > >> This is one of the most common uses of templates we are finding. > So somehow knowing the possible choices somehow affects the actual code > in the field you are querying? in theory no, but it coul

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Tim, if someone designs a template that has say a more limited set of Snomed or other codes on a field than the original archetypes had, then querying the data may be enabled with the template at hand, since it would tell you what (reduced) set of code values could be possible in that field.

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

/pablopazosgutierrez Blog: http://informatica-medica.blogspot.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/ppazos Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 13:24:20 +0100 Subject: GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs) From: erik.sundv...@liu.se To: openehr-technical at openehr.org CC: lincoln.moura at

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

I definitely agree with this separation into what you call structural and visualization templates. It would be really nice if the structural ones became a reality and were implemented into for instance the Java reference implementation. These were almost finished a couple of years ago and seem

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On Thu, 2010-12-02 at 00:50 +, Thomas Beale wrote: > > Tim, > > if someone designs a template that has say a more limited set of > Snomed or other codes on a field than the original archetypes had, > then querying the data may be enabled with the template at hand, since > it would tell you wh

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

We had a similar discussion at the EN13606 web page. These are the conclussions I got. We should distinguish two types of templates: - Structural templates (specific use). Artefacts that constrain archetypes for specific uses or aggregate them in order to build more complex structures. These are

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

On Wed, 2010-12-01 at 23:04 +0100, David Moner wrote: > The important here is to distinguish ?specific use? from ?local use?. > In my mind, a specific use is to define a use case where only a part > of the archetypes or several archetypes are used. This is related to > data structures. For example,

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

I am happy to read this opinion and I do fully agree on this. This makes it possible to use templates for any purpose desired. I already had thought of some template enrichments which work with CSS. Now that there is template parsing software in Java, I am thinking of further developing/implemen

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi Thomas, It is not just governments who will want to use templates to define agreed minimum datasets. At present all decent attempts at interoperability are essentially project-driven and often quite local e.g. Diabetes shared care dataset, Palliative care message, Emergency care summary. The di

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Well we are pretty close with ADL 1.5, and I would expect that the Java project could safely start implementing what is in the current draft of ADL 1.5 and the Template document. So, hopefully not too many months now. - thomas On 01/12/2010 17:19, Olof Torgersson wrote: > Hi, > > When it come

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Yes and no... we used to think that templates would be only local, but it is now clear that governments want a way to standardise whole data-sets, which is what an (ADL 1.5) template is - effectively an archetype that grabs bits of other archetypes and puts them together to create a specific d

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi, When it comes to templates, what I would like to see is that they are finalized and become a part of standard implementations such as the Java reference model. This is something I've been waiting for since I first viewed this list a couple of years ago. Then, as a next step one could start

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi Olof, I agree this is a significant missing piece of the reference model and I am not sure how close the overall ADL 1.5 spec is to being finalised but the operational template definition appears to be very stable and can act as a reference point for coalescing various local template implementa

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

IMO templates are an implementation specific issue and should not be part of the reference model. Archetypes that express a concept as a maximal dataset are sufficient for interoperability. Local templates are just that; local templates. Certain implementations may share templates between applic

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

There's also an opensource project called EHRFlex, which is an archetype-based clinical registry system (EHR) independent of a particular reference model. It uses clinical archetypes as guidelines for the automatic generation of web interfaces, oriented to a clinical use and data introduction. Curr

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Hi All! There was a related discussion regarding GUI-directives/hints around june 2008, that I tried to summarize in the post http://www.openehr.org/mailarchives/openehr-technical/msg03755.html As you will see that post is somewhere in the middle of the thread, so you can find other interesting th

GUI-directives/hints again (Was: Developing usable GUIs)

Thanks Eric, This is an excellent suggestion. With respect to ADL 1.5, the operational template is, I think, the key artefact. It is the 'close to run-time' data definition, and can act as the start point for a great deal of downstream tooling support. It would be interesting t know how readily ot