[mailto:osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org] On Behalf Of Jason Daly
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 5:36 PM
To: OpenSceneGraph Users
Subject: Re: [osg-users] OFT: Interesting commentary of the future of OpenGL
Tueller, Shayne R Civ USAF AFMC 519 SMXS/MXDEC wrote:
One technical feature I can think
On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Tueller, Shayne R Civ USAF AFMC 519
SMXS/MXDEC shayne.tuel...@hill.af.mil wrote:
It works on Windows *and* XBox 360!
Hmmm...is that really cross-platform since the embedded OS on Xbox 360
really has its roots in Windows 2000?
I think the statement might have
Robert Osfield wrote:
On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Tueller, Shayne R Civ USAF AFMC 519
SMXS/MXDEC shayne.tuel...@hill.af.mil wrote:
It works on Windows *and* XBox 360!
Hmmm...is that really cross-platform since the embedded OS on Xbox 360
really has its roots in Windows 2000?
Hi Sukender,
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:15 AM, Sukender suky0...@free.fr wrote:
Okay, so admitting we're dropping D3D...
Well it's hard to drop something that you have picked up yet :-)
In terms of making a D3D backend a goal, as mentioned in my earlier
post this has some pros, and lots of
Hi Robert, hi all,
Well, so in that case I agree we should support OpenGL+ES+CL in OSG 3+.
About topics/actions you mentioned...
1) Campaign individually and as group publicly support of OpenGL
and it's promote its benefits.
2) Publicly put pressure on the hardware vendors to better
Hi Sukender,
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Sukender suky0...@free.fr wrote:
I suggest we create a Communication/advertising section on the wiki. Here
are some ideas to fill in the pages of this section:
- Articles on OpenGL and OSG (so that we link our personnal websites/blogs to
them).
Hi JS,
Supporting OpenGL 2 + OpenGL 3 first sounds fine to me. We should however keep
in mind future plans when designing :)
Sukender
PVLE - Lightweight cross-platform game engine - http://pvle.sourceforge.net/
Le Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:19:57 +0100, Jean-Sébastien Guay
25, 2009 3:04 PM
To: OpenSceneGraph Users
Subject: Re: [osg-users] OFT: Interesting commentary of the future
of OpenGL
Hi,
Sukender wrote:
Hi Robert,
Well yes, I forgot about XBox... So yes, the wrapper may be a
solution. However, I'd like to insist on the fact that we should
"
Hi Cory,
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Cory Riddell c...@codeware.com wrote:
Everybody is talking like there aren't any high performance cross-API scene
graphs nor could one be made. They do exist and they are expensive.
I haven't personally suggested this, but I have talked about the
Hi Sukender,
Supporting OpenGL 2 + OpenGL 3 first sounds fine to me. We should however keep
in mind future plans when designing :)
Of course, but targeting *all* *possible* future plans, even those that
have small probability to actually happen, is not useful.
Note that I forgot OpenGL ES
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Jean-Sébastien Guay
jean-sebastien.g...@cm-labs.com wrote:
Note that I forgot OpenGL ES in my list of what we will probably shoot for
in the near-to-mid term. Since OpenGL ES is totally shader-based it's
probably pretty close to OpenGL 3 (I'm assuming).
Just
Robert-
Robert Osfield wrote:
Well the gaming market is very big, BUT the gaming market isn't just
Windows/D3D, its much bigger than that. The Wii and Playstation2 have
been the big consoles of the last ten years, neither of which have
anything to do with D3D. MS would like to associate
I can think of a least two ways to support multiple backends without
sacrificing performance.
1) We generally acknowledge that a system of wrappers will provide
portability (to different backends) at the expense of performance. However,
a scene graph could be designed in such a way that it
OpenGL was a major concern in me choosing OSG for a commercial product.
I have issues with our current product where there are drawing bugs due to
OpenGL drivers (Dell laptops !) and I have to tell customers to update.
It's also not beyond belief that MSFT could simply decide to lock OpenGL out
Hi Martin,
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Martin Beckett osgfo...@tevs.eu wrote:
OpenGL was a major concern in me choosing OSG for a commercial product.
I have issues with our current product where there are drawing bugs due to
OpenGL drivers (Dell laptops !) and I have to tell customers
Thanks Nintendo and Sony for their usage of OpenGL! ;)
Sukender
PVLE - Lightweight cross-platform game engine - http://pvle.sourceforge.net/
Le Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:10:19 +0100, Cory Riddell c...@codeware.com a écrit:
Robert-
Robert Osfield wrote:
Well the gaming market is very big, BUT the
Hi Paul,
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote:
I can think of a least two ways to support multiple backends without
sacrificing performance.
1) We generally acknowledge that a system of wrappers will provide
portability (to different backends) at the
Hi Martin, hi Robert,
Well, having better OpenGL drivers will be a part of our advocating wiki
section... I'll post about it in a few minutes (I hope!)... :)
Sukender
PVLE - Lightweight cross-platform game engine - http://pvle.sourceforge.net/
Le Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:48:23 +0100, Robert
This seems mostly to be a pretty pragmatic bunch of people, so I'm fairly
confident
that if D3D support doesn't materialize, it is for technical rather than
religious reasons.
Thanks,
Cory
One technical feature I can think of is that OGL is cross platform, running
on everything from
Tueller, Shayne R Civ USAF AFMC 519 SMXS/MXDEC wrote:
One technical feature I can think of is that OGL is cross platform, running
on everything from supercomputers to hand-held devices. D3D is a NO-OP in
this regard. That alone should rule out D3D as far as OSG is concerned.
That's not
Are Xbox-Windows and PC-Windows different platforms? :D
You even could say: It works on two different PCs, so it is cross-platform!...
Sukender
PVLE - Lightweight cross-platform game engine - http://pvle.sourceforge.net/
Le Fri, 27 Feb 2009 01:35:53 +0100, Jason Daly jd...@ist.ucf.edu a écrit:
Hi All,
Wow, I was expecting a few more bodies to show some support for MS +
Direct3D... so far it's just Gordon's clients...
Excellent article Paul, I agree pretty well 100%.
I would love MS to properly support OpenGL and not fight it like they
have done so for the last decade. The
I'm writing a second email on slightly different tack, as the one I've
just written covered the anti-trust/support for OpenGL aspect, this
one I'll do a what if tack that looks at practicalities.
With looking at any new feature one has to weigh up the costs vs
benefits, considering Direct3D
Hi Robert, hi all,
As mentioned in some articles, Direct3D *seems* more popular among game
developpers than OpenGL (contrary to pro apps). I don't know if it is true,
but I'm inclined to belive so. This is a bit what I was saying a few months ago
about OSG and the game industry. Well of course
Hi Sukender,
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Sukender suky0...@free.fr wrote:
And I guess simply adding an OpenGL-D3D mapper is a mistake because D3D
convinced devs would see it as a trickery/fraudulent fake D3D.
I would wonder if D3D convinced devs would consider something that
is not
Sukender wrote:
There are many cons to such a competition, but I guess we all can agree with
this, can't we? IMHO, neither D3D nor OpenGL should die.
And finally, about having OSG to support D3D... Well I'm not *that* happy
with it because D3D non-portability is an offence to the C++; but I
Hi Robert,
Well yes, I forgot about XBox... So yes, the wrapper may be a solution.
However, I'd like to insist on the fact that we should attract D3D devs by
telling them that we're going towards an API agnostic scene graph, and them see
with them what we may/should do about D3D support.
Hi Cory,
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Cory Riddell c...@codeware.com wrote:
I don't understand how anybody can think being OS agnostic is
good, but renderer agnosticism is bad (ideologically). I do understand
however, that development resources are scarce and the programmers get
to work on
[mailto:osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org] On Behalf Of Robert
Osfield
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 2:33 AM
To: OpenSceneGraph Users
Subject: Re: [osg-users] OFT: Interesting commentary of the future of OpenGL
Hi All,
Wow, I was expecting a few more bodies to show some support for MS
Hi Paul,
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote:
What specific ideas do you have for supporting OpenGL? The ARB has a
marketing subgroup that might be interested in hearing about our desire to
help out. Just off the top of my head, I imagine some kind of press
Hi Robert,
Reading your post, I'm thinking that if we forsee a failure in having an API
agnostic OSG, then we may then change our mind and keep having a close-to
OpenGL scenegraph, as for OSG 2. A good OpenGL only would be better than a
bad everything allowed. I hope we'll succeed in this API
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Hi,
Sukender wrote:
Hi Robert,
Well yes, I forgot about XBox... So yes, the wrapper may be a
solution. However, I'd like to insist on the fact that we should
attract D3D devs by telling them that we're going towards an API
agnostic scene
] On Behalf Of Robert
Osfield
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 2:00 PM
To: OpenSceneGraph Users
Subject: Re: [osg-users] OFT: Interesting commentary of the future of OpenGL
Hi Paul,
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Paul Martz pma...@skew-matrix.com wrote:
What specific ideas do you have
...@lists.openscenegraph.org] On Behalf Of Jan Ciger
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:04 PM
To: OpenSceneGraph Users
Subject: Re: [osg-users] OFT: Interesting commentary of the future of OpenGL
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Hi,
Sukender wrote:
Hi Robert,
Well yes, I forgot about XBox
Hi Paul, Jan, and Shayne,
Okay, so admitting we're dropping D3D... Will the problem be similar for
OpenGL-ES/OpenCL (I mean raytracing and such for OpenCL)? This is not ironic: I
don't know much about these. But I wonder if we would have the same
abstraction problem with them. I was thinking
Hi Gordon,
There has been OpenGL RIP stories going ever since Direct3D pocked
it's nose above the parapet. There all have been off mark - if the
stories were true OpenGL would already be dead, and the OSG community
would have deserted it long ago. The OSG community is actually still
growing,
Hm. Perhaps this is an appropriate time for me to unveil my discussion
forum, in which I have a blog stating my own opinions of OpenGL versus D3D:
http://www.skew-matrix.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3
http://www.skew-matrix.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3t=2 t=2
Paul Martz
Skew Matrix Software LLC
, February 24, 2009 12:04 PM
To: OpenSceneGraph Users
Subject: Re: [osg-users] OFT: Interesting commentary of the future of OpenGL
Hi Gordon,
There has been OpenGL RIP stories going ever since Direct3D pocked it's nose
above the parapet. There all have been off mark - if the stories were true
Hi Paul,
Hm. Perhaps this is an appropriate time for me to unveil my discussion
forum, in which I have a blog stating my own opinions of OpenGL versus D3D:
http://www.skew-matrix.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3t=2
Nice post, I agree. That Tom's Hardware article was buying into
Microsoft's
.
Bruce
From: osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org
[mailto:osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org] On Behalf Of Paul
Martz
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 12:31 PM
To: 'OpenSceneGraph Users'
Subject: Re: [osg-users] OFT: Interesting commentary
Not sure if this is an appropriate place to post this - and I'm not trying to
start a flame war, but.
It is in MSFT's financial interest for OpenGL to die.
Their games platform (XNA), the replacement for the win32gui (WPF) and the
replacement Flash on the web(silverlight) are all based on
I didn't expect that my suggestion of automatic OpenGL driver updates would
be popular with developers. Personally, I'd hate it.
However, most end users would favor the idea. Put yourself in their shoes:
Many of them probably don't even know how to spell device driver.
Expecting them to go out
I wouldn't like Microsoft to dump D3D. I think the software ecosystem
is healthier if there is more than one solution. I think it would be
hard to deny that the competition from D3D has helped advance OpenGL as
well.
Another scene graph product (HOOPS) lets you select different rendering
My thoughts on why it makes financial sense for MS to dump D3D and support
OpenGL are already posted in my blog, so I won't reply here.
Paul Martz
Skew Matrix Software LLC
http://www.skew-matrix.com
+1 303 859 9466
___
osg-users mailing list
[mailto:osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org] On Behalf Of
Jean-Sébastien Guay
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 10:45 AM
To: OpenSceneGraph Users
Subject: Re: [osg-users] OFT: Interesting commentary of the future of OpenGL
Hi Paul,
Hm. Perhaps this is an appropriate time for me to unveil my
-Sébastien Guay
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 10:45 AM
To: OpenSceneGraph Users
Subject: Re: [osg-users] OFT: Interesting commentary of the future of OpenGL
Hi Paul,
Hm. Perhaps this is an appropriate time for me to unveil my discussion
forum, in which I have a blog stating my own
Agreed, but we can still complain that OpenGL isn't moving forward fast
enough for us, right?
Absolutely...given the rate that the hardware is evolving in terms of
capability and programmability.
Now, where's my GLSL IDE...:)
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