date:20100216

On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 09:36 -0500, Mike Alaimo wrote:

 The data is displayed on the screen, and the user can change it as many
 times as they want.
 What do you think now Ash?
 
 
 Mike
 
 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 9:29 AM, Ashley Sheridan
 a...@ashleysheridan.co.ukwrote:
 
   On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 09:07 -0500, Mike Alaimo wrote:
 
  Can anyone guide me here?  I have the desire to store user entered
  data into the session.  I am regexing it to be only a-zA-z0-9 and a
  space.  The data is stored in an object and then serialized before
  storing it into the session.  Does anyone see any potential security
  risks here?
 
  Thanks,
 
  Mike
 
 
 
  I think you're fine, I can't see any problems. I think most of the time you
  have to worry when you're actually doing something with the data, like
  inserting it into a file or database, or outputting it to a screen, as these
  are the times that injections can take place.
 
Thanks,
  Ash
  http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
 
 
 


Well, if it's only alpha-numerica data with spaces, I don't see any
problems still. Anything input from the user that gets output to the
screen should be carefully parsed to ensure that any HTML it contains is
either removed or escaped to make it safe.

Data stored in a database should be filtered out to make sure that the
user isn't shoving in their own queries, otherwise you'll end up with
situations like this: http://xkcd.com/327/


Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

Re: [PHP] Storing user entered data in the session

On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 09:07 -0500, Mike Alaimo wrote:

 Can anyone guide me here?  I have the desire to store user entered
 data into the session.  I am regexing it to be only a-zA-z0-9 and a
 space.  The data is stored in an object and then serialized before
 storing it into the session.  Does anyone see any potential security
 risks here?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Mike
 


I think you're fine, I can't see any problems. I think most of the time
you have to worry when you're actually doing something with the data,
like inserting it into a file or database, or outputting it to a screen,
as these are the times that injections can take place.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

[PHP] DocBlocking SOAP types.

2010-02-16 Thread Richard Quadling

Hi.

I want to docblock a set of properties to be xml primitive datatypes [1].

Considering that this is the correct type for the XML/SOAP/WSDL
communication, how do I bypass Zend_WSDL / Zend_AutoDiscovery so
that these types go through cleanly. I know that as far as PHP is
concerned, the type is loose and it will be my responsibility to
encode the values accordingly. It is in the WSDL generation, and hence
the docblocks, that I want these types to be valid.

I think I can achieve this by the following steps.

1 - Create a new concrete class from the
Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_Abstract abstract class, say
Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_W3C (as the type are defined by W3C).
2 - Implement the addComplexType() method to validate the type against
the list and return it if is OK.

What I am stuck on is how do I cascade from the new class so that I
can still drop back to the Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_ArrayOfTypeComplex.

I think the Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_Composite is of use here, but I
can't quite work out how to use it.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Regards,

Richard Quadling.

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#built-in-primitive-datatypes

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Standing on the shoulders of some very clever giants!
EE : http://www.experts-exchange.com/M_248814.html
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[PHP] Re: DocBlocking SOAP types.

Richard Quadling wrote:
 Hi.
 
 I want to docblock a set of properties to be xml primitive datatypes [1].
 
 Considering that this is the correct type for the XML/SOAP/WSDL
 communication, how do I bypass Zend_WSDL / Zend_AutoDiscovery so
 that these types go through cleanly. I know that as far as PHP is
 concerned, the type is loose and it will be my responsibility to
 encode the values accordingly. It is in the WSDL generation, and hence
 the docblocks, that I want these types to be valid.
 
 I think I can achieve this by the following steps.
 
 1 - Create a new concrete class from the
 Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_Abstract abstract class, say
 Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_W3C (as the type are defined by W3C).
 2 - Implement the addComplexType() method to validate the type against
 the list and return it if is OK.
 
 What I am stuck on is how do I cascade from the new class so that I
 can still drop back to the Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_ArrayOfTypeComplex.
 
 I think the Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_Composite is of use here, but I
 can't quite work out how to use it.
 
 Any ideas would be appreciated.
 
 Regards,
 
 Richard Quadling.
 
 [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#built-in-primitive-datatypes
 

AFAIK the Zend Soap WSDL accessor already maps up php types to xsd
types; a PHP String maps to an xsd:string, integer to xsd:int and so forth.

XML schema 1.1 datatypes are pretty much the same as; and backwards
compatible with the current xml schema datatypes (which are still the
recommended standard, as 1.1 isn't a recommendation yet, work in
progress) and use the same namespace. Thus the existing implementation
should be xml w3c complaint both now and in the future.

All that's said purely based on the zend docs [1] and not through
practically using Zend_Soap_Wsdl_* though!

[1] http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/

Regards :)

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[PHP] Re: DocBlocking SOAP types.

Nathan Rixham wrote:
 Richard Quadling wrote:
 Hi.

 I want to docblock a set of properties to be xml primitive datatypes [1].

 Considering that this is the correct type for the XML/SOAP/WSDL
 communication, how do I bypass Zend_WSDL / Zend_AutoDiscovery so
 that these types go through cleanly. I know that as far as PHP is
 concerned, the type is loose and it will be my responsibility to
 encode the values accordingly. It is in the WSDL generation, and hence
 the docblocks, that I want these types to be valid.

 I think I can achieve this by the following steps.

 1 - Create a new concrete class from the
 Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_Abstract abstract class, say
 Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_W3C (as the type are defined by W3C).
 2 - Implement the addComplexType() method to validate the type against
 the list and return it if is OK.

 What I am stuck on is how do I cascade from the new class so that I
 can still drop back to the Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_ArrayOfTypeComplex.

 I think the Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_Composite is of use here, but I
 can't quite work out how to use it.

 Any ideas would be appreciated.

 Regards,

 Richard Quadling.

 [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#built-in-primitive-datatypes

 
 AFAIK the Zend Soap WSDL accessor already maps up php types to xsd
 types; a PHP String maps to an xsd:string, integer to xsd:int and so forth.
 
 XML schema 1.1 datatypes are pretty much the same as; and backwards
 compatible with the current xml schema datatypes (which are still the
 recommended standard, as 1.1 isn't a recommendation yet, work in
 progress) and use the same namespace. Thus the existing implementation
 should be xml w3c complaint both now and in the future.
 
 All that's said purely based on the zend docs [1] and not through
 practically using Zend_Soap_Wsdl_* though!


sigh.. [1] = http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/zend.soap.wsdl.html
(specifically Type mapping) - might make more sense now!



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[PHP] Re: DocBlocking SOAP types.

2010-02-16 Thread Richard Quadling

On 16 February 2010 16:41, Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote:
 Nathan Rixham wrote:
 Richard Quadling wrote:
 Hi.

 I want to docblock a set of properties to be xml primitive datatypes [1].

 Considering that this is the correct type for the XML/SOAP/WSDL
 communication, how do I bypass Zend_WSDL / Zend_AutoDiscovery so
 that these types go through cleanly. I know that as far as PHP is
 concerned, the type is loose and it will be my responsibility to
 encode the values accordingly. It is in the WSDL generation, and hence
 the docblocks, that I want these types to be valid.

 I think I can achieve this by the following steps.

 1 - Create a new concrete class from the
 Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_Abstract abstract class, say
 Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_W3C (as the type are defined by W3C).
 2 - Implement the addComplexType() method to validate the type against
 the list and return it if is OK.

 What I am stuck on is how do I cascade from the new class so that I
 can still drop back to the Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_ArrayOfTypeComplex.

 I think the Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_Composite is of use here, but I
 can't quite work out how to use it.

 Any ideas would be appreciated.

 Regards,

 Richard Quadling.

 [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#built-in-primitive-datatypes


 AFAIK the Zend Soap WSDL accessor already maps up php types to xsd
 types; a PHP String maps to an xsd:string, integer to xsd:int and so forth.

 XML schema 1.1 datatypes are pretty much the same as; and backwards
 compatible with the current xml schema datatypes (which are still the
 recommended standard, as 1.1 isn't a recommendation yet, work in
 progress) and use the same namespace. Thus the existing implementation
 should be xml w3c complaint both now and in the future.

 All that's said purely based on the zend docs [1] and not through
 practically using Zend_Soap_Wsdl_* though!


 sigh.. [1] = http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/zend.soap.wsdl.html
 (specifically Type mapping) - might make more sense now!




I think you've missed the point.

I want to tell the outside world, via the WSDL,  that property X is an
xsd:datetime (hmm ok, for that to make sense forget PHP's DateTime
builtin class)

How do I do that using AutoDiscovery?

PHP doesn't have all the types that I can ask for.

If I use PHP's types, they are all strings. So any junk can be put in.

The consumer of the service isn't PHP, but (I believe) C#. So strongly typed.


It isn't about mapping PHP types  to W3C types.




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Standing on the shoulders of some very clever giants!
EE : http://www.experts-exchange.com/M_248814.html
EE4Free : http://www.experts-exchange.com/becomeAnExpert.jsp
Zend Certified Engineer : http://zend.com/zce.php?c=ZEND002498r=213474731
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[PHP] Re: DocBlocking SOAP types.

Richard Quadling wrote:
 On 16 February 2010 16:41, Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote:
 Nathan Rixham wrote:
 Richard Quadling wrote:
 Hi.

 I want to docblock a set of properties to be xml primitive datatypes [1].

 Considering that this is the correct type for the XML/SOAP/WSDL
 communication, how do I bypass Zend_WSDL / Zend_AutoDiscovery so
 that these types go through cleanly. I know that as far as PHP is
 concerned, the type is loose and it will be my responsibility to
 encode the values accordingly. It is in the WSDL generation, and hence
 the docblocks, that I want these types to be valid.

 I think I can achieve this by the following steps.

 1 - Create a new concrete class from the
 Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_Abstract abstract class, say
 Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_W3C (as the type are defined by W3C).
 2 - Implement the addComplexType() method to validate the type against
 the list and return it if is OK.

 What I am stuck on is how do I cascade from the new class so that I
 can still drop back to the Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_ArrayOfTypeComplex.

 I think the Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_Composite is of use here, but I
 can't quite work out how to use it.

 Any ideas would be appreciated.

 Regards,

 Richard Quadling.

 [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#built-in-primitive-datatypes

 AFAIK the Zend Soap WSDL accessor already maps up php types to xsd
 types; a PHP String maps to an xsd:string, integer to xsd:int and so forth.

 XML schema 1.1 datatypes are pretty much the same as; and backwards
 compatible with the current xml schema datatypes (which are still the
 recommended standard, as 1.1 isn't a recommendation yet, work in
 progress) and use the same namespace. Thus the existing implementation
 should be xml w3c complaint both now and in the future.

 All that's said purely based on the zend docs [1] and not through
 practically using Zend_Soap_Wsdl_* though!

 sigh.. [1] = http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/zend.soap.wsdl.html
 (specifically Type mapping) - might make more sense now!



 
 I think you've missed the point.

totally!

 I want to tell the outside world, via the WSDL,  that property X is an
 xsd:datetime (hmm ok, for that to make sense forget PHP's DateTime
 builtin class)
 
 How do I do that using AutoDiscovery?
 
 PHP doesn't have all the types that I can ask for.
 
 If I use PHP's types, they are all strings. So any junk can be put in.
 
 The consumer of the service isn't PHP, but (I believe) C#. So strongly typed.
 
 
 It isn't about mapping PHP types  to W3C types.

and now i completely follow after downloading the Zend code - which
strategy are you currently using / need to use? either way I guess the
two simplest approaches would either be:

1: create a class which extends
Zend_Soap_Wsdl_Strategy_YOURCURRENTSTRATEGYCHOICE , and implement the
addComplexType() method adding in all the xsd extra types and then
calling parent::addComplexType when not found.

2: create a class which extends Zend_Soap_Wsdl and overrides the
getType() method adding in all the xsd extra types and then calling
parent::getType when not found.

regards!

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[PHP] FTP Site

2010-02-16 Thread Ben Miller

Hi,

 

I'm building a site for a client that has a need to allow their users to
upload large files (up to 100mb or more) and store them on the server.  I've
never had a need to work with PHP's FTP functions until now and, before I go
reading the manual to learn how, I wanted to see if this something that I
can handle with just PHP, or if I'm going to need to adopt a third party
Ajax app or something like that?  Any thoughts or even a point in the right
direction would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,

 

Ben

Re: [PHP] FTP Site

2010-02-16 Thread Robert Cummings


Ben Miller wrote:

Hi,

I'm building a site for a client that has a need to allow their users to
upload large files (up to 100mb or more) and store them on the server.  I've
never had a need to work with PHP's FTP functions until now and, before I go
reading the manual to learn how, I wanted to see if this something that I
can handle with just PHP, or if I'm going to need to adopt a third party
Ajax app or something like that?  Any thoughts or even a point in the right
direction would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,


The PHP FTP functions are for client access to a remote server, not so 
that PHP can act as an FTP server. To resolve the issue you'll have to 
either give them FTP access, SSH access, or allow huge uploads. If you 
insist on doing it via PHP, you can use a .htaccess configuration in the 
 directory containing the upload script to override the upload/post 
maximum sizes for PHP. Similarly, you'll need to increase max execution 
time. Since these are clients, I presume they have been authenticated 
first (otherwise you're opening yourself up to DoS). Alternatively you 
could use a Flash plugin or Java applet to facilitate the upload.


Cheers,
Rob.
--
http://www.interjinn.com
Application and Templating Framework for PHP

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Re: [PHP] FTP Site

2010-02-16 Thread Ryan Sun

I think you will need the help from a client side app, like java
applet or flash, php can transfer file from your web server to your
ftp server but people will have difficulty uploading file via bare
browser

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Ben Miller biprel...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,



 I'm building a site for a client that has a need to allow their users to
 upload large files (up to 100mb or more) and store them on the server.  I've
 never had a need to work with PHP's FTP functions until now and, before I go
 reading the manual to learn how, I wanted to see if this something that I
 can handle with just PHP, or if I'm going to need to adopt a third party
 Ajax app or something like that?  Any thoughts or even a point in the right
 direction would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,



 Ben



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Re: [PHP] FTP Site

On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 15:21 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote:

 Ben Miller wrote:
  Hi,
  
  I'm building a site for a client that has a need to allow their users to
  upload large files (up to 100mb or more) and store them on the server.  I've
  never had a need to work with PHP's FTP functions until now and, before I go
  reading the manual to learn how, I wanted to see if this something that I
  can handle with just PHP, or if I'm going to need to adopt a third party
  Ajax app or something like that?  Any thoughts or even a point in the right
  direction would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,
 
 The PHP FTP functions are for client access to a remote server, not so 
 that PHP can act as an FTP server. To resolve the issue you'll have to 
 either give them FTP access, SSH access, or allow huge uploads. If you 
 insist on doing it via PHP, you can use a .htaccess configuration in the 
   directory containing the upload script to override the upload/post 
 maximum sizes for PHP. Similarly, you'll need to increase max execution 
 time. Since these are clients, I presume they have been authenticated 
 first (otherwise you're opening yourself up to DoS). Alternatively you 
 could use a Flash plugin or Java applet to facilitate the upload.
 
 Cheers,
 Rob.
 -- 
 http://www.interjinn.com
 Application and Templating Framework for PHP
 


Flash or Java are the best way to go for this. The browser isn't good
for large file uploads, I've had too many fail when the files got too
large, even when the server was set up to allow them.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

Re: [PHP] FTP Site

The only 1 i ever got to work properly for files   100 mb is
http://jumploader.com/
It's java, and free.

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 9:12 PM, Ben Miller biprel...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,



 I'm building a site for a client that has a need to allow their users to
 upload large files (up to 100mb or more) and store them on the server.  I've
 never had a need to work with PHP's FTP functions until now and, before I go
 reading the manual to learn how, I wanted to see if this something that I
 can handle with just PHP, or if I'm going to need to adopt a third party
 Ajax app or something like that?  Any thoughts or even a point in the right
 direction would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,



 Ben



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Re: [PHP] FTP Site

2010-02-16 Thread Michael A. Peters


Ben Miller wrote:

Hi,

 


I'm building a site for a client that has a need to allow their users to
upload large files (up to 100mb or more) and store them on the server.  I've
never had a need to work with PHP's FTP functions until now and, before I go
reading the manual to learn how, I wanted to see if this something that I
can handle with just PHP, or if I'm going to need to adopt a third party
Ajax app or something like that?  Any thoughts or even a point in the right
direction would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,

 


You might want to look at how the mozilla add-on firefogg does it.
They have server code example for php.

Basically it splits the file up into chunks (as it encodes it but 
encoding isn't your concern) and when a chunk is received, message is 
sent back to the client telling the client it is OK to send the next chunk.


It may be dependent upon browser functionality though, since it is the 
browser that splits the large upload into smaller manageable chunks.


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[PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Manuel Lemos wrote:
 Hello,
 
 on 02/15/2010 11:37 AM Nathan Rixham said the following:
 I need to find a skilled PHP dev, UK based, with long term availability,
  in the short term to join me on a project and ultimately be prepared to
 take over the project and own it. Remote contract work w/ occasional
 meetings on site.
 
 You may want to try searching PHP professionals with the specific skills
 you need here:
 
 http://www.phpclasses.org/professionals/country/uk/
 
 Or you may want to try to post a job here:
 
 http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/
 

Manuel,

I'm sure there are some very talented people on your site (and in the
community) - one slight problem though, I won't use you're website under
any circumstance (been there, done that).

You make every interaction with your site a horrible, painful
interaction that is purely there to get as many adverts as you can in
front of people, so that you can bleed every cent possible from the hard
work and effort of PHP developers and innocent users. In short, you take
advantage of your users, members and the PHP community - I've never seen
such a bold and ongoing attempt to profit on the hard work and good will
of PHP developers, ever, period.

And then, you have the good thought to come on here and SPAM the hell
out of your site at every opportunity.

ps: clicked the two links

http://www.phpclasses.org/professionals/country/uk/
All I can see at this one is a list of O . which isn't much
good to me or the developer that's supposed to represent - and surprise
surprise to view any of there information I have to register, sign up
and buy a premium subscription - so no, no information there that was
off use at all in any way.

http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/
And here I can pay $75, $60 or Very delayed - Job announcements that
are notified first only to featured professionals, and then much later
to all other users after 23 days for only 7 days. - think I'll give
that one a miss.

Thank you very much for all you're help and sorry you couldn't bleed
some money out of me on this occasion - perhaps you'll manage with
you're next spam to the list.

Regards,

Nathan

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[PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Nathan Rixham wrote:
 Manuel Lemos wrote:
 Hello,

 on 02/15/2010 11:37 AM Nathan Rixham said the following:
 I need to find a skilled PHP dev, UK based, with long term availability,
  in the short term to join me on a project and ultimately be prepared to
 take over the project and own it. Remote contract work w/ occasional
 meetings on site.
 You may want to try searching PHP professionals with the specific skills
 you need here:

 http://www.phpclasses.org/professionals/country/uk/

 Or you may want to try to post a job here:

 http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/

 
 Manuel,
 
 I'm sure there are some very talented people on your site (and in the
 community) - one slight problem though, I won't use you're website under
 any circumstance (been there, done that).
 
 You make every interaction with your site a horrible, painful
 interaction that is purely there to get as many adverts as you can in
 front of people, so that you can bleed every cent possible from the hard
 work and effort of PHP developers and innocent users. In short, you take
 advantage of your users, members and the PHP community - I've never seen
 such a bold and ongoing attempt to profit on the hard work and good will
 of PHP developers, ever, period.
 
 And then, you have the good thought to come on here and SPAM the hell
 out of your site at every opportunity.
 
 ps: clicked the two links
 
 http://www.phpclasses.org/professionals/country/uk/
 All I can see at this one is a list of O . which isn't much
 good to me or the developer that's supposed to represent - and surprise
 surprise to view any of there information I have to register, sign up
 and buy a premium subscription - so no, no information there that was
 off use at all in any way.
 
 http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/
 And here I can pay $75, $60 or Very delayed - Job announcements that
 are notified first only to featured professionals, and then much later
 to all other users after 23 days for only 7 days. - think I'll give
 that one a miss.
 
 Thank you very much for all you're help and sorry you couldn't bleed
 some money out of me on this occasion - perhaps you'll manage with
 you're next spam to the list.
 
 Regards,
 
 Nathan

pps: quote: Do email me; *off-list*; on the above address or
nat...@webr3.org if you're interested. - which would avoid situations
like this, and noise + spam getting through to the list ;)

regards

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

2010-02-16 Thread Michael A. Peters


Nathan Rixham wrote:



You make every interaction with your site a horrible, painful
interaction that is purely there to get as many adverts as you can in
front of people, so that you can bleed every cent possible from the hard
work and effort of PHP developers and innocent users. In short, you take
advantage of your users, members and the PHP community.


While you are entitled to your opinion, as someone with a few classes on 
that site I do not feel taken advantage of in the slightest.


I find it to be a great resource for finding existing classes that often 
do exactly what I need but is not available in pear, and I also have 
found it to be an excellent resource for seeing how other coders solved 
certain problems.


Yes, there are advertisements on the site. Some of the advertisers 
donate useful products to be given as innovation awards and I assume 
some of them do not. Resources like that are not free to operate.


I use to run a yum repository for RHEL/CentOS that provided packages 
from Fedora/Livna that were not available in EPEL.


I had to close it down because after a couple months, my bandwidth costs 
were way too high. I do not know what phpclasses uses in terms of 
bandwidth, but I do not blame him for trying to cover his costs or even 
profiting from the service he provides, I find it to be a service that 
is of a great benefit to me.


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[PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Hello,

on 02/16/2010 08:02 PM Nathan Rixham said the following:
 I need to find a skilled PHP dev, UK based, with long term availability,
  in the short term to join me on a project and ultimately be prepared to
 take over the project and own it. Remote contract work w/ occasional
 meetings on site.
 You may want to try searching PHP professionals with the specific skills
 you need here:

 http://www.phpclasses.org/professionals/country/uk/

 Or you may want to try to post a job here:

 http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/

 
 Manuel,
 
 I'm sure there are some very talented people on your site (and in the
 community) - one slight problem though, I won't use you're website under
 any circumstance (been there, done that).
 
 You make every interaction with your site a horrible, painful
 interaction that is purely there to get as many adverts as you can in
 front of people, so that you can bleed every cent possible from the hard
 work and effort of PHP developers and innocent users. In short, you take
 advantage of your users, members and the PHP community - I've never seen
 such a bold and ongoing attempt to profit on the hard work and good will
 of PHP developers, ever, period.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here.

The PHPClasses.org site was created by me in 1999 with the purpose of
making it easy to distribute my PHP classes so others could test them
and send bug reports and suggestions.

Then I thought it would be nice to let others also share their code
there to do the same, if they want of course. Back then, there was no
advertising or any sort of monetization of the site.

Meanwhile the site has grown a lot. Now it has over 850.000 registered
users. Initially it could run on a shared hosting, but since many years
ago it needs dedicated servers. Hiring dedicated servers costs good
money as you know.

In 2002 I had to choose, either to dedicate to the site full time to
moderate the new site content and develop the features that it needed to
better serve the PHP developers, or shut the site down for good because
I would not have the time to take a day job and maintain the site at the
same time.


I took the chance and decided to work on the site full time. But I had
to find some way to make it generate revenue, basically turn it into a
full time business.

My first option was to provide a package of premium services for a small
subscription fee. I placed a survey asking the users about services they
could be willing to pay.

http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/10-Paid-site-services-survey.html

That was a good idea but it would take me a lot of time to develop the
planned services. So the alternative option that was available was to
put advertising.

I do not like advertising because it slows down page loading and
distracts users from the real content. But over the time, if it was not
for advertising the site would have been shut down a long time ago.

After a lot of time and development effort, in 2007 I finally was able
to launch the planned premium services.

http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/68-Launched-premium-services-for-PHP-developers.html

Premium services help in generating nice revenue, but honestly it is not
a big deal. Not only I have to keep the advertising, I also need to seek
other sources of revenue.

To continue to make the site useful for PHP developers, I decided to
develop a dedicated job board for PHP professionals that was launched in
2008.

http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/79-New-PHP-dedicated-job-site.html

As you may figure by now, the site requires continuous development to
address the user needs. For instance, some site users complained about
the site design.

In 2008 I started developing a system that would let designers propose
new designs and users try the designs in different pages. When the
system was finished in late 2009, a contest was launched.

The winning design won a USD $3.000 money prize (and a big elePHPant).
The new design will replace the current in a few days, once we make a
few adjustments. The money prize comes mostly from the revenue of
premium subscriptions.

I am sorry if you feel that what I have done and will continue doing is
a bad thing and I am just taking advantage of the site users.

I suppose you do not work for free. So you cannot expect me to work for
free as well, as we all have families and have to put food on the table.
There are no miracles.

If what I did with PHPClasses.org is bad, my alternative is to close the
site because I cannot work on the site and have a day job at the same time.


 And then, you have the good thought to come on here and SPAM the hell
 out of your site at every opportunity.

What you call spam, I call word of mouth. You have expressed a need. I
know of a resource that can help you solve you problem, so I told you
about it. If telling about something that could solve your problem is
spam, I am apologise for trying to help you.


 ps: clicked the two links

[PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Manuel Lemos wrote:
 Hello,
 
 on 02/16/2010 08:02 PM Nathan Rixham said the following:
 I need to find a skilled PHP dev, UK based, with long term availability,
  in the short term to join me on a project and ultimately be prepared to
 take over the project and own it. Remote contract work w/ occasional
 meetings on site.
 You may want to try searching PHP professionals with the specific skills
 you need here:

 http://www.phpclasses.org/professionals/country/uk/

 Or you may want to try to post a job here:

 http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/

 Manuel,

 I'm sure there are some very talented people on your site (and in the
 community) - one slight problem though, I won't use you're website under
 any circumstance (been there, done that).

 You make every interaction with your site a horrible, painful
 interaction that is purely there to get as many adverts as you can in
 front of people, so that you can bleed every cent possible from the hard
 work and effort of PHP developers and innocent users. In short, you take
 advantage of your users, members and the PHP community - I've never seen
 such a bold and ongoing attempt to profit on the hard work and good will
 of PHP developers, ever, period.
 
 There seems to be a misunderstanding here.
 
 The PHPClasses.org site was created by me in 1999 with the purpose of
 making it easy to distribute my PHP classes so others could test them
 and send bug reports and suggestions.
 
 Then I thought it would be nice to let others also share their code
 there to do the same, if they want of course. Back then, there was no
 advertising or any sort of monetization of the site.
 
 Meanwhile the site has grown a lot. Now it has over 850.000 registered
 users. Initially it could run on a shared hosting, but since many years
 ago it needs dedicated servers. Hiring dedicated servers costs good
 money as you know.
 
 In 2002 I had to choose, either to dedicate to the site full time to
 moderate the new site content and develop the features that it needed to
 better serve the PHP developers, or shut the site down for good because
 I would not have the time to take a day job and maintain the site at the
 same time.
 
 
 I took the chance and decided to work on the site full time. But I had
 to find some way to make it generate revenue, basically turn it into a
 full time business.
 
 My first option was to provide a package of premium services for a small
 subscription fee. I placed a survey asking the users about services they
 could be willing to pay.
 
 http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/10-Paid-site-services-survey.html
 
 That was a good idea but it would take me a lot of time to develop the
 planned services. So the alternative option that was available was to
 put advertising.
 
 I do not like advertising because it slows down page loading and
 distracts users from the real content. But over the time, if it was not
 for advertising the site would have been shut down a long time ago.
 
 After a lot of time and development effort, in 2007 I finally was able
 to launch the planned premium services.
 
 http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/68-Launched-premium-services-for-PHP-developers.html
 
 Premium services help in generating nice revenue, but honestly it is not
 a big deal. Not only I have to keep the advertising, I also need to seek
 other sources of revenue.
 
 To continue to make the site useful for PHP developers, I decided to
 develop a dedicated job board for PHP professionals that was launched in
 2008.
 
 http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/79-New-PHP-dedicated-job-site.html
 
 As you may figure by now, the site requires continuous development to
 address the user needs. For instance, some site users complained about
 the site design.
 
 In 2008 I started developing a system that would let designers propose
 new designs and users try the designs in different pages. When the
 system was finished in late 2009, a contest was launched.
 
 The winning design won a USD $3.000 money prize (and a big elePHPant).
 The new design will replace the current in a few days, once we make a
 few adjustments. The money prize comes mostly from the revenue of
 premium subscriptions.
 
 I am sorry if you feel that what I have done and will continue doing is
 a bad thing and I am just taking advantage of the site users.
 
 I suppose you do not work for free. So you cannot expect me to work for
 free as well, as we all have families and have to put food on the table.
 There are no miracles.
 
 If what I did with PHPClasses.org is bad, my alternative is to close the
 site because I cannot work on the site and have a day job at the same time.
 
 
 And then, you have the good thought to come on here and SPAM the hell
 out of your site at every opportunity.
 
 What you call spam, I call word of mouth. You have expressed a need. I
 know of a resource that can help you solve you problem, so I told you
 about it. If telling about something that could solve your problem is
 spam, I am apologise

Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 00:29 +, Nathan Rixham wrote:

Manuel Lemos wrote:
Hello,

on 02/16/2010 08:02 PM Nathan Rixham said the following:
I need to find a skilled PHP dev, UK based, with long term availability,
in the short term to join me on a project and ultimately be prepared to
take over the project and own it. Remote contract work w/ occasional
meetings on site.
You may want to try searching PHP professionals with the specific skills
you need here:

http://www.phpclasses.org/professionals/country/uk/

Or you may want to try to post a job here:

http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/

Manuel,

I'm sure there are some very talented people on your site (and in the
community) - one slight problem though, I won't use you're website under
any circumstance (been there, done that).

You make every interaction with your site a horrible, painful
interaction that is purely there to get as many adverts as you can in
front of people, so that you can bleed every cent possible from the hard
work and effort of PHP developers and innocent users. In short, you take
advantage of your users, members and the PHP community - I've never seen
such a bold and ongoing attempt to profit on the hard work and good will
of PHP developers, ever, period.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here.

The PHPClasses.org site was created by me in 1999 with the purpose of
making it easy to distribute my PHP classes so others could test them
and send bug reports and suggestions.

Then I thought it would be nice to let others also share their code
there to do the same, if they want of course. Back then, there was no
advertising or any sort of monetization of the site.

Meanwhile the site has grown a lot. Now it has over 850.000 registered
users. Initially it could run on a shared hosting, but since many years
ago it needs dedicated servers. Hiring dedicated servers costs good
money as you know.

In 2002 I had to choose, either to dedicate to the site full time to
moderate the new site content and develop the features that it needed to
better serve the PHP developers, or shut the site down for good because
I would not have the time to take a day job and maintain the site at the
same time.

I took the chance and decided to work on the site full time. But I had
to find some way to make it generate revenue, basically turn it into a
full time business.

My first option was to provide a package of premium services for a small
subscription fee. I placed a survey asking the users about services they
could be willing to pay.

http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/10-Paid-site-services-survey.html

That was a good idea but it would take me a lot of time to develop the
planned services. So the alternative option that was available was to
put advertising.

I do not like advertising because it slows down page loading and
distracts users from the real content. But over the time, if it was not
for advertising the site would have been shut down a long time ago.

After a lot of time and development effort, in 2007 I finally was able
to launch the planned premium services.

http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/68-Launched-premium-services-for-PHP-developers.html

Premium services help in generating nice revenue, but honestly it is not
a big deal. Not only I have to keep the advertising, I also need to seek
other sources of revenue.

To continue to make the site useful for PHP developers, I decided to
develop a dedicated job board for PHP professionals that was launched in
2008.

http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/79-New-PHP-dedicated-job-site.html

As you may figure by now, the site requires continuous development to
address the user needs. For instance, some site users complained about
the site design.

In 2008 I started developing a system that would let designers propose
new designs and users try the designs in different pages. When the
system was finished in late 2009, a contest was launched.

The winning design won a USD $3.000 money prize (and a big elePHPant).
The new design will replace the current in a few days, once we make a
few adjustments. The money prize comes mostly from the revenue of
premium subscriptions.

I am sorry if you feel that what I have done and will continue doing is
a bad thing and I am just taking advantage of the site users.

I suppose you do not work for free. So you cannot expect me to work for
free as well, as we all have families and have to put food on the table.
There are no miracles.

If what I did with PHPClasses.org is bad, my alternative is to close the
site because I cannot work on the site and have a day job at the same time.

And then, you have the good thought to come on here and SPAM the hell
out of your site at every opportunity.

What you call spam, I call word of mouth. You have expressed a

[PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Hello,

on 02/16/2010 10:29 PM Nathan Rixham said the following:
 Thank you very much for all you're help and sorry you couldn't bleed
 some money out of me on this occasion - perhaps you'll manage with
 you're next spam to the list.
 Personally I regret that you need to be hostile and rude when I was
 legitimately trying to help you. I do not recall ever seeing you here.
 You seem to act as if I hurt you in someway in the past. If I ever did
 that, I sincerely apologise.

 Anyway, I just think you probably are misunderstanding my work. I hope
 it does not upset you that I carry on working on projects that I believe
 to benefit the PHP developers in general.


 
 I'm unsure now TBH
 
 1/2 of me is reading your response and thinking; sure sounds fair;
 
 the other half me is thinking if I took all your opensource work (and
 other peoples) then wrapped it up in a site filled with adverts, then
 piggy backed on paid services like job postings and premium members etc
 to it - so that I could make a living; would that be a good thing to do
 / would it be cool? then counter thought of if those people
 contributed the code.

There seems to be a small detail that may have escaped you. I do not
take anybody opensource. The authors voluntarily submit their work to
the site.

I am not abusing from anybody's work without permission because the
authors submitted it to the PHPClasses.org because they wanted to.


 in all honesty the following are the sticking point that make it hard
 for me to decide if I was right in my earlier response:
 
 1: that the sign up to get the class is even part of the equation

This is another misunderstanding. The site does not make anybody
register to download any package. That is an option determined by each
author.

That is explained in the site FAQ and other places, but some people
still misunderstand it and assume that it is an evil imposition of the site.

http://www.phpclasses.org/faq/#register-to-download

It may not be obvious, but the truth is that this detail is one of the
reasons for the success of the site.


 2: that developer listings are visible to premium only peopl

Also, if you are a premium subscriber, everybody can contact you if you
want to provide paid services.

Of course, as aI mentioned, if you are a great contributor that sent
innovative packages, you get your premium subscription for free.


 3: that users can't delete an account

That is explained in the FAQ. The site does not allow users to recreate
accounts with the same address or access name. If you really delete an
account, you have no way to prevent that an user recreates an account
with the same access name and e-mail address. That would be a hole for
malicious users to cheat on several types of rankings and contests that
the site organizes.

http://www.phpclasses.org/faq/#delete-account

Other than that, most sites out there never really delete accounts. Some
claim they do, but then you try to create an account with the same
credentials and the site says the account still exists. I would rather
tell users the truth.


 4: the amount of adverts

I wish it was viable to remove all the ads. That would mean that the
site could succeed on revenue from other services. Advertising was plan
B. I still hope someday I can take all ads down. Meanwhile, premium
subscribers have all ads removed from the site. In some cases, they see
other valuable information in the place of the ads.


 Certain things like having paid Job postings on there
 are fair enough and I'll remove from the equation; just the 4 things
 above that I can't decided over.
 
 Maybe I am misunderstanding, perhaps I was a bit harsh - I would be
 interested to know if it is a full time job; obviously we can't have
 you working for nothing whilst you're family suffers.

 It bothered me that I may have flamed you for no reason, so I took
 council from a few people - one said I was definitely right to do so;
 one wasn't sure after your response; and the other said opensource
 people shouldn't play that game (ie monetize / pull a salary from
 contributed work). I'm wondering why it is that people are unsure about
 your website, yet see sourceforge and github etc with there adverts as okay.

Nowadays it is not that dramatic. That was more a problem after the
dotcom bubble in 2001 when there were no alternatives to monetize a
content site. The site was at a greater risk of closing.

Nowadays I am just happy that I work for myself on a project that I have
chosen to dedicate full time. It is just not a matter of money, although
more money helps investing on things like the design contest that
allowed paying the best user chosen design for the site.

There are much more things upcoming. Most of the things are based on
suggestions from users because that is the way to make this a more
satisfactory project for everybody.

But I have to manage this as any real business to keep it viable.

Most people that use the site do it to some how make money for

Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Hello,

on 02/16/2010 10:54 PM Ashley Sheridan said the following:
 I myself do find the site confusing to navigate, which doesn't always
 help when looking for a PHP class to fit in a project that's already

That is a bit vague as you do not mention explicitly what is confusing.
Sometimes I read comments like yours and do not have a clear idea of
what people find so confusing. Maybe it helps if you can be more explicit.

Anyway, I don't know if you have accessed the site lately, but a few
months ago the site made available the internal site search engine to
every user, which before that was only available to premium users.

Until them regular users would see a co-branded version of the Google
site search. That was not good for searching a site with many sections,
as results of different site sections would appear totally mixed.

The internal site search provides a better solution because it splits
results into tabs: packages, reviews, blogs, forums, videos, etc..

http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/105-Improved-site-search-for-every-user.html


 With charging for the open source items, that does seem a little
 old-fashioned. What about allowing the contributors to offer up paid
 support for their code, with the site taking a cut. Charging for the
 support and documentation of an open-source system is a model that seems
 quite popular in the open source world (look at a lot of Linux distros,
 for example). You'll still have people being a bit tight and not wanting
 to pay, but there will be more people (I think) that would want to pay
 for the documentation if it was reasonably priced.
 
 In fact, a system like that could possibly improve the state of
 documentation for some systems.

The question is whether that would provide enough revenue to justify an
investment in developing something like that?

Anyway, there is already a PHP specialists forum. It is forum that you
may go and ask tough questions about PHP development and related subjects.

http://www.phpclasses.org/discuss/topic/specialists/forum/general/

All questions are answered by either me or any premium subscriber. The
advantage for premium subscribers is that they can expose their contacts
in case you want to hire them to provide paid consultancy.

Many premium subscribers are actually winners or nominees of the
innovation award, so often they are developers above the average. So,
they often provide very good answers and also get private requests to
provide paid work.

Despite, PHP specialists forum is restricted and you can only see the
responses if you are a premium subscriber, if you are a regular user of
the site you can post a question there for free. If you have a though
problem to solve, you may try it now for free in the address above.


-- 

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

Find and post PHP jobs
http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/

PHP Classes - Free ready to use OOP components written in PHP
http://www.phpclasses.org/

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

[PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Manuel Lemos wrote:
 Hello,
 
 on 02/16/2010 10:29 PM Nathan Rixham said the following:
 Thank you very much for all you're help and sorry you couldn't bleed
 some money out of me on this occasion - perhaps you'll manage with
 you're next spam to the list.
 Personally I regret that you need to be hostile and rude when I was
 legitimately trying to help you. I do not recall ever seeing you here.
 You seem to act as if I hurt you in someway in the past. If I ever did
 that, I sincerely apologise.

 Anyway, I just think you probably are misunderstanding my work. I hope
 it does not upset you that I carry on working on projects that I believe
 to benefit the PHP developers in general.


 I'm unsure now TBH

 1/2 of me is reading your response and thinking; sure sounds fair;

 the other half me is thinking if I took all your opensource work (and
 other peoples) then wrapped it up in a site filled with adverts, then
 piggy backed on paid services like job postings and premium members etc
 to it - so that I could make a living; would that be a good thing to do
 / would it be cool? then counter thought of if those people
 contributed the code.
 
 There seems to be a small detail that may have escaped you. I do not
 take anybody opensource. The authors voluntarily submit their work to
 the site.

hence why I said: if those people contributed the code. - I'm thinking
about it from both angles - just to clarify, all your content is
contributed willingly by authors, and I'm in no way suggesting it isn't
- rather I was contemplating the business model in both scenarios.

 I am not abusing from anybody's work without permission because the
 authors submitted it to the PHPClasses.org because they wanted to.

fully concurred and glad that's cleared up!

 in all honesty the following are the sticking point that make it hard
 for me to decide if I was right in my earlier response:

 1: that the sign up to get the class is even part of the equation
 
 This is another misunderstanding. The site does not make anybody
 register to download any package. That is an option determined by each
 author.
 
 That is explained in the site FAQ and other places, but some people
 still misunderstand it and assume that it is an evil imposition of the site.
 
 http://www.phpclasses.org/faq/#register-to-download
 
 It may not be obvious, but the truth is that this detail is one of the
 reasons for the success of the site.

again, hence why I said part of the equation; it is can be switched on
and off by the author on a per file basis, but to me it would make more
sense to leave the decision of signing up to the user, and not try and
influence it in anyway - personally I would remove the optional part of
it and simply do what other sites do; present the user with two choices
register and download or download without registering.

A similar topic of opt-in vs opt-out on emails is often discussed;
however I believe it has to be opt-in now, within the UK certainly.

 2: that developer listings are visible to premium only peopl
 
 Also, if you are a premium subscriber, everybody can contact you if you
 want to provide paid services.
 
 Of course, as aI mentioned, if you are a great contributor that sent
 innovative packages, you get your premium subscription for free.

... I see no discussion here; personally (as a user, and an author) I
find that a little off-putting; but as you mentioned it is a business,
and thus a business decision (as is all of this I guess!).

 3: that users can't delete an account
 
 That is explained in the FAQ. The site does not allow users to recreate
 accounts with the same address or access name. If you really delete an
 account, you have no way to prevent that an user recreates an account
 with the same access name and e-mail address. That would be a hole for
 malicious users to cheat on several types of rankings and contests that
 the site organizes.
 
 http://www.phpclasses.org/faq/#delete-account
 
 Other than that, most sites out there never really delete accounts. Some
 claim they do, but then you try to create an account with the same
 credentials and the site says the account still exists. I would rather
 tell users the truth.

I've read it quite a few times, and as a developer I know very well that
you could delete the account and prevent the address from being re-used
very easily with little code; the ethics of making somebody remove each
tiny bot of info and file from your site in order to manually remove
themselves is a bit.. debatable to me - again, personally I'd do it the
same way as everybody else, giving the user the option of whether to
make the username and email address available to be re-registered. I
strongly feel all these kind of choices should be in the hands of the
user, and not the company.

 
 4: the amount of adverts
 
 I wish it was viable to remove all the ads. That would mean that the
 site could succeed on revenue from other services. Advertising was plan
 B. I still hope someday I can

Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 10:02:09PM +, Nathan Rixham wrote:

 Manuel Lemos wrote:
  Hello,
 
  on 02/15/2010 11:37 AM Nathan Rixham said the following:
  I need to find a skilled PHP dev, UK based, with long term availability,
   in the short term to join me on a project and ultimately be prepared to
  take over the project and own it. Remote contract work w/ occasional
  meetings on site.
 
  You may want to try searching PHP professionals with the specific skills
  you need here:
 
  http://www.phpclasses.org/professionals/country/uk/
 
  Or you may want to try to post a job here:
 
  http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/
 
 
 Manuel,
 
 I'm sure there are some very talented people on your site (and in the
 community) - one slight problem though, I won't use you're website under
 any circumstance (been there, done that).
 
 You make every interaction with your site a horrible, painful
 interaction that is purely there to get as many adverts as you can in
 front of people, so that you can bleed every cent possible from the hard
 work and effort of PHP developers and innocent users. In short, you take
 advantage of your users, members and the PHP community - I've never seen
 such a bold and ongoing attempt to profit on the hard work and good will
 of PHP developers, ever, period.

I've given Manuel a hard time in the past about his site design. But
we'll see what his new design is, when it shows up.

As for Manuel profiting from the whole thing, I don't see another
busines model working. Source Forge has a similar business model. And
nearly every other Linux publication profits from the work of FOSS
developers. The only other popular business model on the FOSS world is a
support-based model, which works for companies with a single product or
a small stable of products. It wouldn't work for phpclasses.org.

Having to register to download classes from phpclasses.org is a
nuisance. Manuel says this is up to the individual developer. This may
be technically true, but Manuel *offers* this as an option. Contrast
Source Forge, which performs a similar function but does not require any
registration to download anything. I imagine that the registration
allows Manuel to tightly monitor site usage in a variety of ways.

But I don't know of another, better, resource for PHP code written by
random developers anywhere. I'm willing to give his site a plug when
someone can't find a class they need. If I had worthy classes, I'd
upload them there myself. I can't really blame Manuel for promoting the
site. It's his job.

As for the jobs and other aspects of the site, I can't say. I don't use
them.

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Yeez eh, some of you people here are truely ungrateful for serious
effort spent to save you time.

While i've never found a use for any of the code on phpclasses.org,
and i also would've chosen a slightly different pay-server-rent-model
for the jobs subsection, i can't help but notice the author of
phpclasses must've put in quite a bit of time to organize a specialist
meetingplace.

You really really shouldn't flame a person for trying to make a small
living while at the same time still giving away quite a bit of
timesaving products for free.

Instead you people bitch about too many ads, and you practically
force me to pay for something.
If you don't like the ads, ignore 'm! And still click on a few and
let'm sit in tabs for a few seconds. It's the very-fucking-least you
can do for the time you're saved.

And if you have a complaint-and-tip-for-change about somebody's
business model, you'll find that framing such a change in neutral /
positive lanugage is far likelier to be considered at all.

I have also put out 3 opensource products, paid hosting cost for it
even for a while, and have never used ads to support 'm.
But you know what? Out of thousands of downloads, i never got even a
single short thanks message back.
I must've saved at least some people quite a bit of time and mental
energy, and possibly decreased their schedule pressure at the same
time.
But a thank you over email is too much effort for them apparently.

Open-source users are often very haughty and insist on
everything-must-be-free, but those are often also the vast majority
who don't put out free work of their own.
They want to get paid good money for the conglomerate products they
create, yet pay preferably NOTHING for the components they base that
on.
If these people weren't so dispicable, it'd be funny.

I would not be surprised to see open-source releasers (like myself)
quit putting out free wares all together. Afterall, being paid with
public flames instead of even-short-thank-yous and the occasional
click on-my-ads, will cause any human to think why would i want to
offer that thing for free at all?



- putting ads on his site, even lots of them

 I'm sure there are some very talented people on your site (and in the
 community) - one slight problem though, I won't use you're website under
 any circumstance (been there, done that).

 You make every interaction with your site a horrible, painful
 interaction that is purely there to get as many adverts as you can in
 front of people, so that you can bleed every cent possible from the hard
 work and effort of PHP developers and innocent users. In short, you take
 advantage of your users, members and the PHP community - I've never seen
 such a bold and ongoing attempt to profit on the hard work and good will
 of PHP developers, ever, period.

 And then, you have the good thought to come on here and SPAM the hell
 out of your site at every opportunity.


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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Hello,

on 02/17/2010 01:06 AM Paul M Foster said the following:
 I've given Manuel a hard time in the past about his site design. But
 we'll see what his new design is, when it shows up.

Actually, there was a contest and the users have chosen the winning
design, not me. That was the way to assure the majority of the users
that care would be satisfied.

The winning designing is viewable here but since the author is still
making some changes to fix some issues on pages that were not tested
during the contest, it may not be viewable all the times.

http://www.phpclasses.org/design/turn/2/theme/igd01.html

If you cannot see it yet, the author left a preview on their site:

http://www.intergraphicdesigns.com/clients/phpclasses/


 As for Manuel profiting from the whole thing, I don't see another
 busines model working. Source Forge has a similar business model. And
 nearly every other Linux publication profits from the work of FOSS
 developers. The only other popular business model on the FOSS world is a
 support-based model, which works for companies with a single product or
 a small stable of products. It wouldn't work for phpclasses.org.

Right, because the site just distributes other people's code, not
support it directly.


 Having to register to download classes from phpclasses.org is a
 nuisance. Manuel says this is up to the individual developer. This may
 be technically true, but Manuel *offers* this as an option. Contrast
 Source Forge, which performs a similar function but does not require any
 registration to download anything. I imagine that the registration
 allows Manuel to tightly monitor site usage in a variety of ways.

Actually it is much more than that. If you download a package, the site
keeps track of that and next time the package is updated, it send you an
e-mail alert so you can get the latest version, unless you do not want
to be notified of course.

Also the site counts how many distinct users downloaded each package and
builds top download rankings . If you download a package more than once,
it only counts once, so the top download charts are accurate, making it
fair for everybody.

For users this may not be very important, but for authors it is very
motivating. Authors are happy that the site lets their users know about
updates of their classes. Authors also like to see the progress of their
packages in terms of users that have downloaded it.

The site also provide a blog for each package, so when the author wants
to post something new about the class or ask for feedback, a message is
sent to the users that downloaded the package.

There are other compelling reasons but this is basically why more than
2600 authors submitted over 5000 packages. The site gets them attention.

Other sites like Sourceforge cannot provide this level of attention
precisely because they do not require users to download even if the
authors wanted that.

-- 

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

Find and post PHP jobs
http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/

PHP Classes - Free ready to use OOP components written in PHP
http://www.phpclasses.org/

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[PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Hello,

on 02/17/2010 12:34 AM Nathan Rixham said the following:
 in all honesty the following are the sticking point that make it hard
 for me to decide if I was right in my earlier response:

 1: that the sign up to get the class is even part of the equation
 This is another misunderstanding. The site does not make anybody
 register to download any package. That is an option determined by each
 author.

 That is explained in the site FAQ and other places, but some people
 still misunderstand it and assume that it is an evil imposition of the site.

 http://www.phpclasses.org/faq/#register-to-download

 It may not be obvious, but the truth is that this detail is one of the
 reasons for the success of the site.
 
 again, hence why I said part of the equation; it is can be switched on
 and off by the author on a per file basis, but to me it would make more
 sense to leave the decision of signing up to the user, and not try and
 influence it in anyway - personally I would remove the optional part of
 it and simply do what other sites do; present the user with two choices
 register and download or download without registering.
 
 A similar topic of opt-in vs opt-out on emails is often discussed;
 however I believe it has to be opt-in now, within the UK certainly.

That is because you are only seeing it from the view point of the user.

People need to have motivation to do what they do. Authors only submit
their packages to PHPClasses site if they gain something from it. What
the site provides them is attention.

As I explained in another reply, if an author leaves the login
requirement enabled, the site can keep track of the users that
downloaded the packages. That can be used for sending alerts when a new
version of the package is released, or a new blog about the package is
posted.

The site can also build download charts that lets authors see their
progress in user interest and motivate them to continue to submit more
packages or update existing ones.

In the end everybody wins.


 3: that users can't delete an account
 That is explained in the FAQ. The site does not allow users to recreate
 accounts with the same address or access name. If you really delete an
 account, you have no way to prevent that an user recreates an account
 with the same access name and e-mail address. That would be a hole for
 malicious users to cheat on several types of rankings and contests that
 the site organizes.

 http://www.phpclasses.org/faq/#delete-account

 Other than that, most sites out there never really delete accounts. Some
 claim they do, but then you try to create an account with the same
 credentials and the site says the account still exists. I would rather
 tell users the truth.
 
 I've read it quite a few times, and as a developer I know very well that
 you could delete the account and prevent the address from being re-used
 very easily with little code; the ethics of making somebody remove each
 tiny bot of info and file from your site in order to manually remove
 themselves is a bit.. debatable to me - again, personally I'd do it the
 same way as everybody else, giving the user the option of whether to
 make the username and email address available to be re-registered. I
 strongly feel all these kind of choices should be in the hands of the
 user, and not the company.

The site sorts of give that option to the users by letting them know
that it does not remove accounts. Users that disagree, should just not
register.

It is like you go to some country and if for some reason you leave,
probably upset with something, you will not be able to erase the records
of your presence in  that country.

This site is not really interested in your personal information. The
reason this site does not remove accounts is because it is used to
prevent several types of fraud. I am just not going to enter in much
detail here in public on what happens to not give ideas to cheaters that
may be reading this. I hope you understand.


 4: the amount of adverts
 I wish it was viable to remove all the ads. That would mean that the
 site could succeed on revenue from other services. Advertising was plan
 B. I still hope someday I can take all ads down. Meanwhile, premium
 subscribers have all ads removed from the site. In some cases, they see
 other valuable information in the place of the ads.
 
 the amount; not suggesting you remove adverts all together, it's the
 currency of the web!

Unfortunately I cannot reduce the current amount of ads. The site
already eliminated most types of pop-under ads because they are too
annoying for the users. That caused a significant ad revenue reduction.

Maybe if the number of premium subscriptions raises to a significant
level I can reduce or even eliminated all ads. While that does not
happen, I am afraid the current number of ads has to kept.


 There are much more things upcoming. Most of the things are based on
 suggestions from users because that is the way to make this a more
 satisfactory

Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

2010-02-16 Thread Shawn McKenzie

Paul M Foster wrote:
 On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 10:02:09PM +, Nathan Rixham wrote:
 
 Manuel Lemos wrote:
 Hello,

 on 02/15/2010 11:37 AM Nathan Rixham said the following:
 I need to find a skilled PHP dev, UK based, with long term availability,
  in the short term to join me on a project and ultimately be prepared to
 take over the project and own it. Remote contract work w/ occasional
 meetings on site.
 You may want to try searching PHP professionals with the specific skills
 you need here:

 http://www.phpclasses.org/professionals/country/uk/

 Or you may want to try to post a job here:

 http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/

 Manuel,

 I'm sure there are some very talented people on your site (and in the
 community) - one slight problem though, I won't use you're website under
 any circumstance (been there, done that).

 You make every interaction with your site a horrible, painful
 interaction that is purely there to get as many adverts as you can in
 front of people, so that you can bleed every cent possible from the hard
 work and effort of PHP developers and innocent users. In short, you take
 advantage of your users, members and the PHP community - I've never seen
 such a bold and ongoing attempt to profit on the hard work and good will
 of PHP developers, ever, period.
 
 I've given Manuel a hard time in the past about his site design. But
 we'll see what his new design is, when it shows up.
 
 As for Manuel profiting from the whole thing, I don't see another
 busines model working. Source Forge has a similar business model. And
 nearly every other Linux publication profits from the work of FOSS
 developers. The only other popular business model on the FOSS world is a
 support-based model, which works for companies with a single product or
 a small stable of products. It wouldn't work for phpclasses.org.
 
 Having to register to download classes from phpclasses.org is a
 nuisance. Manuel says this is up to the individual developer. This may
 be technically true, but Manuel *offers* this as an option. Contrast
 Source Forge, which performs a similar function but does not require any
 registration to download anything. I imagine that the registration
 allows Manuel to tightly monitor site usage in a variety of ways.
 
 But I don't know of another, better, resource for PHP code written by
 random developers anywhere. I'm willing to give his site a plug when
 someone can't find a class they need. If I had worthy classes, I'd
 upload them there myself. I can't really blame Manuel for promoting the
 site. It's his job.
 
 As for the jobs and other aspects of the site, I can't say. I don't use
 them.
 
 Paul
 

I won't write a lengthy post, but I'll second some of what Paul has
said.  phpclasses has been around for a while and has provided a
collection of quite a few very nice classes before there was really any
PHP framework to speak of.  Manuel has authored most of them and many
other people have their own nice collection there. I haven't ever used
one of the classes, but I have downloaded several in the past that
performed functions that I wasn't very familiar with and used them as a
learning guide and inspiration for my own code.

I don't have a problem with the profits.  People submit their code
because they want to, and well, ads are part of most sites now days, sf
included.

The only slightly negative thing that I can say is that I have never
seen a post by Manuel on this list actually contributing a solution,
recommendation or any type of help other than a link to phpclasses.

-- 
Thanks!
-Shawn
http://www.spidean.com

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 04:28:07AM +0100, Rene Veerman wrote:

snip

 
 I have also put out 3 opensource products, paid hosting cost for it
 even for a while, and have never used ads to support 'm.
 But you know what? Out of thousands of downloads, i never got even a
 single short thanks message back.
 I must've saved at least some people quite a bit of time and mental
 energy, and possibly decreased their schedule pressure at the same
 time.
 But a thank you over email is too much effort for them apparently.

You know, I've noticed this too. I have a project on SourceForge, which
gets downloaded with some regularity. It's the kind of thing you
wouldn't download unless it specifically fit what you needed. I've had
three people submit patches, but beyond that, no one has ever emailed me
to say, Gee thanks for the code. It really helped!

snip

 I would not be surprised to see open-source releasers (like myself)
 quit putting out free wares all together. Afterall, being paid with
 public flames instead of even-short-thank-yous and the occasional
 click on-my-ads, will cause any human to think why would i want to
 offer that thing for free at all?

I don't think this will ever happen. I don't submit public code in order
to receive accolades. If no one ever uses it or thanks me, that's okay.
It would be *nice* to receive some acknowledgement, but I'm too busy
writing code to worry about that much.

I will say this though: if you're on a list like this and someone
materially assists you with their advice, it would be a nice courtesy to
just write back and thank them. It also helps let others know that this
particular piece of advice actually was the key to solving the problem.

Paul

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 01:52:08AM -0200, Manuel Lemos wrote:

 
 The winning designing is viewable here but since the author is still
 making some changes to fix some issues on pages that were not tested
 during the contest, it may not be viewable all the times.
 
 http://www.phpclasses.org/design/turn/2/theme/igd01.html
 
 If you cannot see it yet, the author left a preview on their site:
 
 http://www.intergraphicdesigns.com/clients/phpclasses/

Mch better.

Paul

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

 I don't think this will ever happen. I don't submit public code in order
 to receive accolades. If no one ever uses it or thanks me, that's okay.
 It would be *nice* to receive some acknowledgement, but I'm too busy
 writing code to worry about that much.


yea, i don't particularly mind not-being-thanked, i take the
opensource from others that i use myself as thanks, but if it would
turn into public flaming because of some ads, i would be offended.

on the other hand, i have received off-list mail about other business
practices of phpclasses.org that i also would not have chosen myself,
because i disapprove of them.

but, it can be argued that for a person with a certain skillset and
skill levels, maintaining and marketing phpclasses.org is the work
related to opensourcing.
Not contributing a lot of work-code can then be forgiven, imo.

but if it turns out he's truely leeching on the work of others (by for
instance requiring authors to give him (near-)free exclusive rights or
something), then i'd have to switch sides, and say that authors need
to be warned of such practices. They should at least retain the full
rights to their work and be able to quickly and permanently remove
their work from a site like phpclasses.org, including the removal of
individual files.

it's been made clear to me that when it comes to his business
practices, the owner of phpclasses.org likes to stick to his own ideas
and descisions.

but hey, one can always start a competitor.
it shouldn't be that hard for the cluefull to create something
better-looking and easier-to-work-with, while still making a
finders-fee profit.

and if you're an author and don't like phpclasses.org, just use
something like sf.net or googlecode.

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[PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Manuel Lemos wrote:
 Hello,
 
 on 02/17/2010 12:34 AM Nathan Rixham said the following:
 in all honesty the following are the sticking point that make it hard
 for me to decide if I was right in my earlier response:

 1: that the sign up to get the class is even part of the equation
 This is another misunderstanding. The site does not make anybody
 register to download any package. That is an option determined by each
 author.

 That is explained in the site FAQ and other places, but some people
 still misunderstand it and assume that it is an evil imposition of the site.

 http://www.phpclasses.org/faq/#register-to-download

 It may not be obvious, but the truth is that this detail is one of the
 reasons for the success of the site.
 again, hence why I said part of the equation; it is can be switched on
 and off by the author on a per file basis, but to me it would make more
 sense to leave the decision of signing up to the user, and not try and
 influence it in anyway - personally I would remove the optional part of
 it and simply do what other sites do; present the user with two choices
 register and download or download without registering.

 A similar topic of opt-in vs opt-out on emails is often discussed;
 however I believe it has to be opt-in now, within the UK certainly.
 
 That is because you are only seeing it from the view point of the user.
 
 People need to have motivation to do what they do. Authors only submit
 their packages to PHPClasses site if they gain something from it. What
 the site provides them is attention.

I know - I'm an author ;) [or was, well still am, can't delete profile
so left some files up their for anybody who may find them useful] - and
as for attention, the last class I put on phpclasses was getting 5
downloads a week, and 1k+ a week on sourceforge.

 As I explained in another reply, if an author leaves the login
 requirement enabled, the site can keep track of the users that
 downloaded the packages. That can be used for sending alerts when a new
 version of the package is released, or a new blog about the package is
 posted.
 
 The site can also build download charts that lets authors see their
 progress in user interest and motivate them to continue to submit more
 packages or update existing ones.
 
 In the end everybody wins.

and it can do all this with the user being in control and choosing to
give that info.. as implemented on millions of other sites..

 3: that users can't delete an account
 That is explained in the FAQ. The site does not allow users to recreate
 accounts with the same address or access name. If you really delete an
 account, you have no way to prevent that an user recreates an account
 with the same access name and e-mail address. That would be a hole for
 malicious users to cheat on several types of rankings and contests that
 the site organizes.

 http://www.phpclasses.org/faq/#delete-account

 Other than that, most sites out there never really delete accounts. Some
 claim they do, but then you try to create an account with the same
 credentials and the site says the account still exists. I would rather
 tell users the truth.
 I've read it quite a few times, and as a developer I know very well that
 you could delete the account and prevent the address from being re-used
 very easily with little code; the ethics of making somebody remove each
 tiny bot of info and file from your site in order to manually remove
 themselves is a bit.. debatable to me - again, personally I'd do it the
 same way as everybody else, giving the user the option of whether to
 make the username and email address available to be re-registered. I
 strongly feel all these kind of choices should be in the hands of the
 user, and not the company.
 
 The site sorts of give that option to the users by letting them know
 that it does not remove accounts. Users that disagree, should just not
 register.
 
 It is like you go to some country and if for some reason you leave,
 probably upset with something, you will not be able to erase the records
 of your presence in  that country.
 
 This site is not really interested in your personal information. The
 reason this site does not remove accounts is because it is used to
 prevent several types of fraud. I am just not going to enter in much
 detail here in public on what happens to not give ideas to cheaters that
 may be reading this. I hope you understand.

as stated, you could just remove the public pages of said user and keep
the username + email taken; quite easily

 4: the amount of adverts
 I wish it was viable to remove all the ads. That would mean that the
 site could succeed on revenue from other services. Advertising was plan
 B. I still hope someday I can take all ads down. Meanwhile, premium
 subscribers have all ads removed from the site. In some cases, they see
 other valuable information in the place of the ads.
 the amount; not suggesting you remove adverts all together, it's the
 currency of the web!

Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 01:52:08AM -0200, Manuel Lemos wrote:


 The winning designing is viewable here but since the author is still
 making some changes to fix some issues on pages that were not tested
 during the contest, it may not be viewable all the times.

 http://www.phpclasses.org/design/turn/2/theme/igd01.html

 If you cannot see it yet, the author left a preview on their site:

 http://www.intergraphicdesigns.com/clients/phpclasses/

 Mch better.

 Paul

+1 !

And Manuel, you'd get more goodwill if you'd allow dowloading without
registration..

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Hello,

on 02/17/2010 02:13 AM Shawn McKenzie said the following:
 PHP framework to speak of.  Manuel has authored most of them and many

I suppose you meant that I authored many of the classes. I only
submitted about 30 out of more than 2600 classes available submitted to
the site. 30 may be many, but 1% is far from being most.


 The only slightly negative thing that I can say is that I have never
 seen a post by Manuel on this list actually contributing a solution,
 recommendation or any type of help other than a link to phpclasses.

This doesn't sound fair. If a developer has a problem and I have a class
that solves that problem, suggesting to use the class does not
contribute to the solution of the problem?

Still it is not accurate to say that I only post messages here to
suggest links to the site.

Even if it was true, keep in mind that I do not have all the time in the
world. I think it is still helpful when I find time to suggest solutions
even if they include using any of my classes or something else in the
PHPClasses site, unless you prefer that I do not even post any messages
here at all and do not bother trying helping anybody here in any way.

-- 

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

Find and post PHP jobs
http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/

PHP Classes - Free ready to use OOP components written in PHP
http://www.phpclasses.org/

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Rene Veerman wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com 
 wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 01:52:08AM -0200, Manuel Lemos wrote:

 The winning designing is viewable here but since the author is still
 making some changes to fix some issues on pages that were not tested
 during the contest, it may not be viewable all the times.

 http://www.phpclasses.org/design/turn/2/theme/igd01.html

 If you cannot see it yet, the author left a preview on their site:

 http://www.intergraphicdesigns.com/clients/phpclasses/
 Mch better.

 Paul
 
 +1 !

+1

 And Manuel, you'd get more goodwill if you'd allow dowloading without
 registration..

+1

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 05:38:36AM +0100, Rene Veerman wrote:

snip

 but if it turns out he's truely leeching on the work of others (by for
 instance requiring authors to give him (near-)free exclusive rights or
 something), then i'd have to switch sides, and say that authors need
 to be warned of such practices. They should at least retain the full
 rights to their work and be able to quickly and permanently remove
 their work from a site like phpclasses.org, including the removal of
 individual files.

Yeah, I have a real beef with copyright-assignment, like what the GNU
Project insists upon. If I built a program, I get to keep the copyright
and determine the license.

I feel the opposite way about patches. If you submit a patch to my
sourceforge project, it's copyrighted by me. I don't make money off the
project and I don't want to fight with you later about the code. And if
I submit a patch to your project, you're free to do as you like with the
code and its copyright.

By the way, I am *not* saying Manuel does this. I'm just commenting on
Rene's post.

Paul

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Manuel Lemos wrote:
 Hello,
 
 on 02/17/2010 02:13 AM Shawn McKenzie said the following:
 PHP framework to speak of.  Manuel has authored most of them and many
 
 I suppose you meant that I authored many of the classes. I only
 submitted about 30 out of more than 2600 classes available submitted to
 the site. 30 may be many, but 1% is far from being most.
 
 
 The only slightly negative thing that I can say is that I have never
 seen a post by Manuel on this list actually contributing a solution,
 recommendation or any type of help other than a link to phpclasses.
 
 This doesn't sound fair. If a developer has a problem and I have a class
 that solves that problem, suggesting to use the class does not
 contribute to the solution of the problem?
 
 Still it is not accurate to say that I only post messages here to
 suggest links to the site.
 
 Even if it was true, keep in mind that I do not have all the time in the
 world. I think it is still helpful when I find time to suggest solutions
 even if they include using any of my classes or something else in the
 PHPClasses site, unless you prefer that I do not even post any messages
 here at all and do not bother trying helping anybody here in any way.
 

take the (pretty much forced) registration off the site and people will
mind a whole lot less ;)

you're getting a lot of good feedback here

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Paul M Foster wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 05:38:36AM +0100, Rene Veerman wrote:
 
 snip
 
 but if it turns out he's truely leeching on the work of others (by for
 instance requiring authors to give him (near-)free exclusive rights or
 something), then i'd have to switch sides, and say that authors need
 to be warned of such practices. They should at least retain the full
 rights to their work and be able to quickly and permanently remove
 their work from a site like phpclasses.org, including the removal of
 individual files.
 
 Yeah, I have a real beef with copyright-assignment, like what the GNU
 Project insists upon. If I built a program, I get to keep the copyright
 and determine the license.
 
 I feel the opposite way about patches. If you submit a patch to my
 sourceforge project, it's copyrighted by me. I don't make money off the
 project and I don't want to fight with you later about the code. And if
 I submit a patch to your project, you're free to do as you like with the
 code and its copyright.
 
 By the way, I am *not* saying Manuel does this. I'm just commenting on
 Rene's post.
 

snap - afaik he doesn't do this

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

2010-02-16 Thread Shawn McKenzie

Manuel Lemos wrote:
 Hello,
 
 on 02/17/2010 02:13 AM Shawn McKenzie said the following:
 PHP framework to speak of.  Manuel has authored most of them and many
 
 I suppose you meant that I authored many of the classes. I only
 submitted about 30 out of more than 2600 classes available submitted to
 the site. 30 may be many, but 1% is far from being most.
 
 
 The only slightly negative thing that I can say is that I have never
 seen a post by Manuel on this list actually contributing a solution,
 recommendation or any type of help other than a link to phpclasses.
 
 This doesn't sound fair. If a developer has a problem and I have a class
 that solves that problem, suggesting to use the class does not
 contribute to the solution of the problem?
 
 Still it is not accurate to say that I only post messages here to
 suggest links to the site.
 
 Even if it was true, keep in mind that I do not have all the time in the
 world. I think it is still helpful when I find time to suggest solutions
 even if they include using any of my classes or something else in the
 PHPClasses site, unless you prefer that I do not even post any messages
 here at all and do not bother trying helping anybody here in any way.
 

Well fuck it then.  99% of my post was defending you with one blurb of
constructive criticism.

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

I use LGPL and i think (hope, actually) that it gives me a free full
license for any patch i receive.
That's what several people summarizing it for me have told me.

But as far as i'm concerned, it goes both ways; any patch is included
in a free update that may be re-hosted.
It's just about who-does-the-coordinating and final descision making.
That should be the original author for as long as he/she chooses.

And i don't mind contributors insisting on crediting them in the
appropriate place with at least 1 line, with an option for another
line with a url of their choosing.
If the url is / gets malicious, the browser content virus-malware
services will warn users about it these days.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:54 AM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 05:38:36AM +0100, Rene Veerman wrote:

 snip

 but if it turns out he's truely leeching on the work of others (by for
 instance requiring authors to give him (near-)free exclusive rights or
 something), then i'd have to switch sides, and say that authors need
 to be warned of such practices. They should at least retain the full
 rights to their work and be able to quickly and permanently remove
 their work from a site like phpclasses.org, including the removal of
 individual files.

 Yeah, I have a real beef with copyright-assignment, like what the GNU
 Project insists upon. If I built a program, I get to keep the copyright
 and determine the license.

 I feel the opposite way about patches. If you submit a patch to my
 sourceforge project, it's copyrighted by me. I don't make money off the
 project and I don't want to fight with you later about the code. And if
 I submit a patch to your project, you're free to do as you like with the
 code and its copyright.

 By the way, I am *not* saying Manuel does this. I'm just commenting on
 Rene's post.


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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Shawn McKenzie wrote:
 Manuel Lemos wrote:
 Hello,

 on 02/17/2010 02:13 AM Shawn McKenzie said the following:
 PHP framework to speak of.  Manuel has authored most of them and many
 I suppose you meant that I authored many of the classes. I only
 submitted about 30 out of more than 2600 classes available submitted to
 the site. 30 may be many, but 1% is far from being most.


 The only slightly negative thing that I can say is that I have never
 seen a post by Manuel on this list actually contributing a solution,
 recommendation or any type of help other than a link to phpclasses.
 This doesn't sound fair. If a developer has a problem and I have a class
 that solves that problem, suggesting to use the class does not
 contribute to the solution of the problem?

 Still it is not accurate to say that I only post messages here to
 suggest links to the site.

 Even if it was true, keep in mind that I do not have all the time in the
 world. I think it is still helpful when I find time to suggest solutions
 even if they include using any of my classes or something else in the
 PHPClasses site, unless you prefer that I do not even post any messages
 here at all and do not bother trying helping anybody here in any way.

 
 Well fuck it then.  99% of my post was defending you with one blurb of
 constructive criticism.
 

perhaps it's my fault for setting the negative tone from the off, or
perhaps its a case of showing true colors, or perhaps different all
together - time will tell I guess.

there's a lot for him to think about and take on board!

bailing out now,

regards

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 01:52:08AM -0200, Manuel Lemos wrote:


snip

 
  Having to register to download classes from phpclasses.org is a
  nuisance. Manuel says this is up to the individual developer. This may
  be technically true, but Manuel *offers* this as an option. Contrast
  Source Forge, which performs a similar function but does not require any
  registration to download anything. I imagine that the registration
  allows Manuel to tightly monitor site usage in a variety of ways.
 
 Actually it is much more than that. If you download a package, the site
 keeps track of that and next time the package is updated, it send you an
 e-mail alert so you can get the latest version, unless you do not want
 to be notified of course.
 
 Also the site counts how many distinct users downloaded each package and
 builds top download rankings . If you download a package more than once,
 it only counts once, so the top download charts are accurate, making it
 fair for everybody.
 
 For users this may not be very important, but for authors it is very
 motivating. Authors are happy that the site lets their users know about
 updates of their classes. Authors also like to see the progress of their
 packages in terms of users that have downloaded it.
 
 The site also provide a blog for each package, so when the author wants
 to post something new about the class or ask for feedback, a message is
 sent to the users that downloaded the package.
 
 There are other compelling reasons but this is basically why more than
 2600 authors submitted over 5000 packages. The site gets them attention.
 
 Other sites like Sourceforge cannot provide this level of attention
 precisely because they do not require users to download even if the
 authors wanted that.

This type of question has been asked many times on this list,
particularly for voting type projects: How do I ensure that a person
can only vote once (etc.)? No answer I've ever seen, besides insisting
on a registration/login, has ever been satisfactory. The above is a
real-world example of this in action. And as Manuel details, it has
some definite benefits to users and developers.

Again, having to register/login is a pain. But ads are a pain, too. It's
a trade-off.

Paul

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 06:02:18AM +0100, Rene Veerman wrote:

 I use LGPL and i think (hope, actually) that it gives me a free full
 license for any patch i receive.
 That's what several people summarizing it for me have told me.

snip

The multitude of copyright holders on several FOSS projects has created
licensing issues, in particular with the Linux kernel. The problem
arises where the controlling person wants to (or doesn't want to) change
the license. In the case of the Linux kernel, the license issue is GPLv3
versus GPLv2. Broadly, the rights and privileges are the same between
the two licenses, but Linus has some issues with some of the provisions
of GPLv3. Other projects have wanted to change licenses for whatever
reason, but where the copyrights are owned by a variety of people,
getting them all to agree on the change has been a problem.

Paul

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Paul M Foster wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 01:52:08AM -0200, Manuel Lemos wrote:
 
 
 snip
 
 Having to register to download classes from phpclasses.org is a
 nuisance. Manuel says this is up to the individual developer. This may
 be technically true, but Manuel *offers* this as an option. Contrast
 Source Forge, which performs a similar function but does not require any
 registration to download anything. I imagine that the registration
 allows Manuel to tightly monitor site usage in a variety of ways.
 Actually it is much more than that. If you download a package, the site
 keeps track of that and next time the package is updated, it send you an
 e-mail alert so you can get the latest version, unless you do not want
 to be notified of course.


per project rss feeds?

 Also the site counts how many distinct users downloaded each package and
 builds top download rankings . If you download a package more than once,
 it only counts once, so the top download charts are accurate, making it
 fair for everybody.

no more accurate than storing the ip (or a hash of it); people forget
details sign up again and so forth - can never guarantee accuracy here

 For users this may not be very important, but for authors it is very
 motivating. Authors are happy that the site lets their users know about
 updates of their classes. Authors also like to see the progress of their
 packages in terms of users that have downloaded it.

can be done with the aforementioned, no need for logins

 The site also provide a blog for each package, so when the author wants
 to post something new about the class or ask for feedback, a message is
 sent to the users that downloaded the package.

good; but again rss  offering an option to subscribe by email.

 There are other compelling reasons but this is basically why more than
 2600 authors submitted over 5000 packages. The site gets them attention.

 Other sites like Sourceforge cannot provide this level of attention
 precisely because they do not require users to download even if the
 authors wanted that.

I'd debate this; but trying to stick to positives - sf do pretty well
with their stats is all I'll say

 This type of question has been asked many times on this list,
 particularly for voting type projects: How do I ensure that a person
 can only vote once (etc.)? No answer I've ever seen, besides insisting
 on a registration/login, has ever been satisfactory. The above is a
 real-world example of this in action. And as Manuel details, it has
 some definite benefits to users and developers.

ack; fact is if you wanted to skew results you'd just create lots of
accounts - distinct ip and cookies can cover it just as well; there is
no perfect solution.

 Again, having to register/login is a pain. But ads are a pain, too. It's
 a trade-off.

always need to figure out which has more benefits though; more downloads
and exposure (better conversion ratio) vs better stats and less exposure
(low conversion ratio) + account for things like people downloading
because they can see the source ala google code - i for one always check
the svn browser on google code before downloading, sure many others do too..

regards

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[PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Hello,

on 02/17/2010 02:42 AM Nathan Rixham said the following:
 People need to have motivation to do what they do. Authors only submit
 their packages to PHPClasses site if they gain something from it. What
 the site provides them is attention.
 
 I know - I'm an author ;) [or was, well still am, can't delete profile
 so left some files up their for anybody who may find them useful] - and
 as for attention, the last class I put on phpclasses was getting 5
 downloads a week, and 1k+ a week on sourceforge.

Rest assured that the download numbers of PHPClasses are accurate.
Unlike sites that do not provide the option to the authors to require
user authentication, the PHPClasses site does not account downloads from
Web robots because robots usually do not log in sites.

How many robots downloaded your work from Sourceforge? Can you know how
many real users have downloaded your work at least once?


 As I explained in another reply, if an author leaves the login
 requirement enabled, the site can keep track of the users that
 downloaded the packages. That can be used for sending alerts when a new
 version of the package is released, or a new blog about the package is
 posted.

 The site can also build download charts that lets authors see their
 progress in user interest and motivate them to continue to submit more
 packages or update existing ones.

 In the end everybody wins.
 
 and it can do all this with the user being in control and choosing to
 give that info.. as implemented on millions of other sites..

Does Sourceforge send e-mail alerts to all users that have downloaded
your package when a new version is published?

Can you have a blog in Sourceforge for each of your packages and when
you post a new article in a package blog all users that downloaded the
package before be notified to come and read the blog?


 This site is not really interested in your personal information. The
 reason this site does not remove accounts is because it is used to
 prevent several types of fraud. I am just not going to enter in much
 detail here in public on what happens to not give ideas to cheaters that
 may be reading this. I hope you understand.
 
 as stated, you could just remove the public pages of said user and keep
 the username + email taken; quite easily

Yes, I can disable your account permanently. If you want that just let
me know privately your access name.


 I do hope it all goes well for you and the community, and that the right
 choices are made - when in doublt just look at the big guys like
 sourceforge, github etc and see how they do it - the better your service
 and easier it is for users, the more chance you get of full donated
 hosting and investments - I guess a good measure will be when you have
 several of the big PHP projects / libraries on there.
 Well, those sites are not exactly for the same purpose. They are for
 hosting the actual project development. The PHPClasses site is more for
 distribution. Each type of site needs to find a business model that
 adequates to the type of activity that goes one in the site.

 
 if you made the site more accessible; didn't lock in users, took off the

I think you are missing the point. As an author, you are the one that
can remove the login requirement from your package files.


 registration, cut down the ads (not remove), improved the templates,

I suppose you have missed that there was a design contest to let users
submit new site templates and have the users vote on which they prefer.


 promoted the developers by giving their details free and showing off

Do you work for free all the time? No? So why do you want the PHPClasses
site to provide free advertising to all PHP developers, when they can
make good money from the advertising they get?


 their fine work; hell why not even integrate with these fine project
 hosting sites (that'll cut the bandwidth..) then maybe - just maybe

I am not sure what you mean, but being able to synchronize projects from
CVS/SVN/Git repositories is something that is on my to do list for a while.


 traffic would rise; people would enjoy the site more; use it more and in
 turn the money maker which is the job ad's would get more exposure and
 boost revenue for you.

That is a wild guess. I do not see any PHP specific site doing what you
are suggesting and boosting their revenue.


 you've got everything there to make a great community which would in
 turn fund you and be a fine business - there are other ways to do
 things. I know it's been 8 years but you can always change / tweak.
 
 ultimately though, it is a business the focus has to be on making sure
 the money comes in  that has to be priority #1 (?)

Of course. The reality is that it is impossible to please everybody. I
have chosen many years ago to please the authors because I am one of
them and if the authors do not have motivation to contribute, there is
no reason for rest of the users to come to the site. If the users do not
come, there is not much of a

Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Hello,

on 02/17/2010 03:00 AM Shawn McKenzie said the following:
 Well fuck it then.  99% of my post was defending you with one blurb of
 constructive criticism.

I am sorry but I was just clarifying things that I felt it were
inaccurate. I did not meant to upset anybody. If you found reason to be
offended, I appologise.

-- 

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

Find and post PHP jobs
http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/

PHP Classes - Free ready to use OOP components written in PHP
http://www.phpclasses.org/

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity

Hello,

on 02/17/2010 02:38 AM Rene Veerman said the following:
 on the other hand, i have received off-list mail about other business
 practices of phpclasses.org that i also would not have chosen myself,
 because i disapprove of them.

Off the list? Curious. Is it my impression or someone is cowardly trying
to poison people here against the PHPClasses site?



 but, it can be argued that for a person with a certain skillset and
 skill levels, maintaining and marketing phpclasses.org is the work
 related to opensourcing.
 Not contributing a lot of work-code can then be forgiven, imo.
 
 but if it turns out he's truely leeching on the work of others (by for
 instance requiring authors to give him (near-)free exclusive rights or
 something), then i'd have to switch sides, and say that authors need
 to be warned of such practices. They should at least retain the full
 rights to their work and be able to quickly and permanently remove
 their work from a site like phpclasses.org, including the removal of
 individual files.

I don't know where people get those ideas. The PHPClasses site has no
interest nor means to require any author to grant (near-)free exclusive
rights to any of the contributed code.

The truth is that if authors submit their packages to PHPClasses and not
elsewhere, that could be because the site provide them benefits that
they do not get elsewhere.

Anyway, you may check out the site contribution requirements here. Maybe
the text is not very clear.

http://www.phpclasses.org/contribute.html


 it's been made clear to me that when it comes to his business
 practices, the owner of phpclasses.org likes to stick to his own ideas
 and descisions.

Is this a good or a bad thing? The site has to remain viable. By the end
of the day I am the ultimate responsible to keep it viable. I often
listen to user ideas and implement them. But some user ideas are not
feasible or are counterproductive. Should I have to follow all user
ideas even if I feel they are not right to execute?

I think sometimes users do not have patience. Certain ideas are good and
accepted but it take a long time to become feasible. Some people may
understand that as if I just want to stick to my own ideas.

For instance, the site design was meant to replaceable by the users
since 2002. Unfortunately that was something that did not get
development priority until 2008. It took more than one year to develop a
design contest system that allows any user to propose new designs and
any user to vote on the proposed designs.

The contest is finished, the winner was picked and in a few days the new
design will be up after a few adjustments. This was a monstrous job only
meant to please the interest of users to have a different design. Still
I had to put up with the criticism as if I wanted to stick to the
original design.

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Regards,
Manuel Lemos

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http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/

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Re: [PHP] Re: UK Project Opportunity