Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[John Phillips]

Hi Kai,
I position my saddle so my sit bones are centered about where the 
widest part of the saddle is. I do shift back and forth a tiny bit when I 
stretch out or sit up straight and ride hands free. I am riding with larger 
pedals, with my arches centered over the spindles of the pedals, so I 
needed to lower my saddle 4cm and that places the saddle 1.3cm forward. My 
PBH is 85cm and my saddle height is about 71cm on Nitto S83 seatposts with 
the saddles all the way back on their rails.

Does that help?

John

On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 2:44:01 PM UTC-7, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
wrote:
>
> Thanks John, 
> Do you find yourself sitting farther forward on the Berthouds? 
> -Kai

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Thanks John, 
Do you find yourself sitting farther forward on the Berthouds?
-Kai

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[John Phillips]

Kai,
I have a Berthoud Aspin on my AHH with Noodle bars, and a Vars on my 
Hunqapillar with Albatross bars. I know the numbers point to the wider 
Berthoud saddles being similiar to the B17, but to my sit bones and butt, 
the Aspin/Aravis saddles feel like a B17 select but more comfortable, and 
the Aubisque/Vars/Mente saddles feel like the B67 Select but more 
comfortable. The narrower nose with less flare between the thighs is also 
more with both Berthoud shapes.
And I only use Obenauf's to treat my saddles.
I hope this helps, but YMMV of course,
John

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 7:23:40 PM UTC-7, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
wrote:
>
> Thanks for the links Steve, found this-
>
> "The answer is that the Berthoud has less suspended leather than the 
> B-17. 
>
> The Brooks B-17 is 170mm from the outside of the leather to the outside of 
> the leather at the widest part of the saddle. The frame support at that 
> point is about 155mm outside-to-outside, and it looks like there's about 
> 140mm of "suspended leather" within that 155mm width. The other 15mm or so 
> of leather is in direct contact with the metal support. 
>
> The Berthoud that I have is 155mm from the outside of the leather to the 
> outside of the leather at the widest part of the saddle. The underlying 
> plastic frame on the Berthoud is a little wider than the metal frame on the 
> Brooks, and it hugs the leather further in toward the middle than the frame 
> does on the Brooks. It's hard to tell just how much would be suspended and 
> how much would contact the underlying support once you sit on a broken-in 
> saddle, but my best guess is that no more than about 115mm would be 
> suspended. That's about what it is now with the saddle new, so that's the 
> most it will ever be. Based on this it's pretty clear that the Berthoud 
> will give you less than the Brooks."
>
> So percentage wise, the hammocked portion of a Berthoud is less than a 
> similarly sized Brooks. So Berthoud's widest, the Aubisque at 180mm would 
> be considerably narrower than Brooks' B68 at 205mm.
> Bummer. 
>  
> And Laing, thanks for the b68 acquisition tips! Recovering a sad and 
> neglected b68 is probably in my future. As for the Rivet Loveland, I bought 
> one last year and it was way too short, the nose was murder, good width 
> though (I'm 6'8" with what seems to be a recycled horse pelvis). And if you 
> would ever want to trade a ridable b68 for a perfect condition Rivet, look 
> no further!
> Thanks all
> -Kai
>
>   
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:39:11 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/789460-brooks-select-champion-special-berthoud-aspin-leather-saddles-compared.html
>>
>>
>> http://oceanaircycles.com/2011/06/23/saddle-comparison-brooks-b17-swift-and-berthoud-touring/
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/DarMZOShnMw
>>
>>
>> On 4/17/19 5:30 PM, John G. wrote:
>>
>> Kai, 
>>
>> I have a B17 Select on my Roadeo and a Berthoud Aspin on my Dream, which 
>> have similar reach and saddle-to-bar drop. The B17 Select has far more 
>> miles on it, and is more broken in. The Aspin feels noticeably narrower. 
>> Not a bad thing--the overall fit and feel of the two saddles is very 
>> different. I'm happy with both.
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:03:05 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
>> wrote: 
>>>
>>> How does sizing compare between Berthoud and Brooks? The widest Berthoud 
>>> is around 180mm, but their sides are much closer to vertical than Brooks', 
>>> so I'm wondering if their widest models have similar sit bone 
>>> comfort/measurements to Brooks with 20 or so more millimeters. I love my 
>>> Brooks B68, and would like to find an equivalent saddle available for sale. 
>>> -Kai
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Steve Palincsar
>> Alexandria, Virginia 
>> USA
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Tom Horton]

Re saddle covers  i have a few and use them interchangeably on my brooks b17 
and berthoud aspins  have never let my leather saddles get soaked

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 17, 2019, at 6:40 PM, Collin A  wrote:
> 
> Tom, over the thousand-or-so miles did you ever have to use a saddle cover to 
> deal with poor weather?
> 
> Everyone else, would you say a saddle cover made for a B17 would work fine on 
> a GB saddle?
> 
>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 9:21:28 AM UTC-7, Tom Horton wrote:
>> this is about berthoud saddles. for what it's worth, I got one from James a 
>> couple years back (hi James) and have ridden it maybe a thousand miles, and 
>> no problems, great comfortable saddle. I weigh about 190 pounds. I have used 
>> only Obenaufs on it, have tensioned it slightly.  maybe there is something 
>> to that Proofide causing a problem.  I was surprised how fast mine went from 
>> stiff to broken in...but no sign it's breaking down.  tom h
>> 
>>> On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>>> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
>>> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
>>> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
>>> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
>>> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
>>> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
>>> comfortable than the Aspin?
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Steve Palincsar]

The Aspin is more like the Team Pro than the B.17.  And it feels much 
narrower between the thighs than a B.17 does.


On 4/17/19 10:23 PM, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY wrote:

Thanks for the links Steve, found this-

"The answer is that the Berthoud has less suspended leather than the 
B-17.


The Brooks B-17 is 170mm from the outside of the leather to the 
outside of the leather at the widest part of the saddle. The frame 
support at that point is about 155mm outside-to-outside, and it looks 
like there's about 140mm of "suspended leather" within that 155mm 
width. The other 15mm or so of leather is in direct contact with the 
metal support.


The Berthoud that I have is 155mm from the outside of the leather to 
the outside of the leather at the widest part of the saddle. The 
underlying plastic frame on the Berthoud is a little wider than the 
metal frame on the Brooks, and it hugs the leather further in toward 
the middle than the frame does on the Brooks. It's hard to tell just 
how much would be suspended and how much would contact the underlying 
support once you sit on a broken-in saddle, but my best guess is that 
no more than about 115mm would be suspended. That's about what it is 
now with the saddle new, so that's the most it will ever be. Based on 
this it's pretty clear that the Berthoud will give you less than the 
Brooks."


So percentage wise, the hammocked portion of a Berthoud is less than a 
similarly sized Brooks. So Berthoud's widest, the Aubisque at 180mm 
would be considerably narrower than Brooks' B68 at 205mm.

Bummer.
And Laing, thanks for the b68 acquisition tips! Recovering a sad and 
neglected b68 is probably in my future. As for the Rivet Loveland, I 
bought one last year and it was way too short, the nose was murder, 
good width though (I'm 6'8" with what seems to be a recycled horse 
pelvis). And if you would ever want to trade a ridable b68 for a 
perfect condition Rivet, look no further!

Thanks all
-Kai




On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:39:11 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:


https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/789460-brooks-select-champion-special-berthoud-aspin-leather-saddles-compared.html




http://oceanaircycles.com/2011/06/23/saddle-comparison-brooks-b17-swift-and-berthoud-touring/



https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/DarMZOShnMw



On 4/17/19 5:30 PM, John G. wrote:

Kai,

I have a B17 Select on my Roadeo and a Berthoud Aspin on my
Dream, which have similar reach and saddle-to-bar drop. The B17
Select has far more miles on it, and is more broken in. The Aspin
feels noticeably narrower. Not a bad thing--the overall fit and
feel of the two saddles is very different. I'm happy with both.

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:03:05 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V.
-Brooklyn NY wrote:

How does sizing compare between Berthoud and Brooks? The
widest Berthoud is around 180mm, but their sides are much
closer to vertical than Brooks', so I'm wondering if their
widest models have similar sit bone comfort/measurements to
Brooks with 20 or so more millimeters. I love my Brooks B68,
and would like to find an equivalent saddle available for sale.
-Kai


-- 
Steve Palincsar

Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Sounds like the 180mm Aubisque might be the closest Berthoud to the 175mm 
B17. According to Steve's bikeforums link, it would have a slightly 
narrower sweet sit spot than the b17, with the Aspin having a much skinnier 
feel indeed. Thanks John
-Kai 

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:30:09 PM UTC-4, John G. wrote:
>
> Kai,
>
> I have a B17 Select on my Roadeo and a Berthoud Aspin on my Dream, which 
> have similar reach and saddle-to-bar drop. The B17 Select has far more 
> miles on it, and is more broken in. The Aspin feels noticeably narrower. 
> Not a bad thing--the overall fit and feel of the two saddles is very 
> different. I'm happy with both.
>
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:03:05 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
> wrote:
>>
>> How does sizing compare between Berthoud and Brooks? The widest Berthoud 
>> is around 180mm, but their sides are much closer to vertical than Brooks', 
>> so I'm wondering if their widest models have similar sit bone 
>> comfort/measurements to Brooks with 20 or so more millimeters. I love my 
>> Brooks B68, and would like to find an equivalent saddle available for sale.
>> -Kai
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Thanks for the links Steve, found this-

"The answer is that the Berthoud has less suspended leather than the B-17. 

The Brooks B-17 is 170mm from the outside of the leather to the outside of 
the leather at the widest part of the saddle. The frame support at that 
point is about 155mm outside-to-outside, and it looks like there's about 
140mm of "suspended leather" within that 155mm width. The other 15mm or so 
of leather is in direct contact with the metal support. 

The Berthoud that I have is 155mm from the outside of the leather to the 
outside of the leather at the widest part of the saddle. The underlying 
plastic frame on the Berthoud is a little wider than the metal frame on the 
Brooks, and it hugs the leather further in toward the middle than the frame 
does on the Brooks. It's hard to tell just how much would be suspended and 
how much would contact the underlying support once you sit on a broken-in 
saddle, but my best guess is that no more than about 115mm would be 
suspended. That's about what it is now with the saddle new, so that's the 
most it will ever be. Based on this it's pretty clear that the Berthoud 
will give you less than the Brooks."

So percentage wise, the hammocked portion of a Berthoud is less than a 
similarly sized Brooks. So Berthoud's widest, the Aubisque at 180mm would 
be considerably narrower than Brooks' B68 at 205mm.
Bummer. 
 
And Laing, thanks for the b68 acquisition tips! Recovering a sad and 
neglected b68 is probably in my future. As for the Rivet Loveland, I bought 
one last year and it was way too short, the nose was murder, good width 
though (I'm 6'8" with what seems to be a recycled horse pelvis). And if you 
would ever want to trade a ridable b68 for a perfect condition Rivet, look 
no further!
Thanks all
-Kai

  



On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:39:11 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/789460-brooks-select-champion-special-berthoud-aspin-leather-saddles-compared.html
>
>
> http://oceanaircycles.com/2011/06/23/saddle-comparison-brooks-b17-swift-and-berthoud-touring/
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/DarMZOShnMw
>
>
> On 4/17/19 5:30 PM, John G. wrote:
>
> Kai, 
>
> I have a B17 Select on my Roadeo and a Berthoud Aspin on my Dream, which 
> have similar reach and saddle-to-bar drop. The B17 Select has far more 
> miles on it, and is more broken in. The Aspin feels noticeably narrower. 
> Not a bad thing--the overall fit and feel of the two saddles is very 
> different. I'm happy with both.
>
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:03:05 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
> wrote: 
>>
>> How does sizing compare between Berthoud and Brooks? The widest Berthoud 
>> is around 180mm, but their sides are much closer to vertical than Brooks', 
>> so I'm wondering if their widest models have similar sit bone 
>> comfort/measurements to Brooks with 20 or so more millimeters. I love my 
>> Brooks B68, and would like to find an equivalent saddle available for sale. 
>> -Kai
>>
>
> -- 
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Steve Palincsar]

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/789460-brooks-select-champion-special-berthoud-aspin-leather-saddles-compared.html

http://oceanaircycles.com/2011/06/23/saddle-comparison-brooks-b17-swift-and-berthoud-touring/

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/DarMZOShnMw


On 4/17/19 5:30 PM, John G. wrote:

Kai,

I have a B17 Select on my Roadeo and a Berthoud Aspin on my Dream, 
which have similar reach and saddle-to-bar drop. The B17 Select has 
far more miles on it, and is more broken in. The Aspin feels 
noticeably narrower. Not a bad thing--the overall fit and feel of the 
two saddles is very different. I'm happy with both.


On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:03:05 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
NY wrote:


How does sizing compare between Berthoud and Brooks? The widest
Berthoud is around 180mm, but their sides are much closer to
vertical than Brooks', so I'm wondering if their widest models
have similar sit bone comfort/measurements to Brooks with 20 or so
more millimeters. I love my Brooks B68, and would like to find an
equivalent saddle available for sale.
-Kai

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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Collin A]

Tom, over the thousand-or-so miles did you ever have to use a saddle cover 
to deal with poor weather?

Everyone else, would you say a saddle cover made for a B17 would work fine 
on a GB saddle?

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 9:21:28 AM UTC-7, Tom Horton wrote:
>
> this is about berthoud saddles. for what it's worth, I got one from James 
> a couple years back (hi James) and have ridden it maybe a thousand miles, 
> and no problems, great comfortable saddle. I weigh about 190 pounds. I have 
> used only Obenaufs on it, have tensioned it slightly.  maybe there is 
> something to that Proofide causing a problem.  I was surprised how fast 
> mine went from stiff to broken in...but no sign it's breaking down.  tom h
>
> On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>>
>> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
>> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
>> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
>> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
>> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
>> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
>> comfortable than the Aspin?
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Steve Palincsar]

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/789460-brooks-select-champion-special-berthoud-aspin-leather-saddles-compared.html

http://oceanaircycles.com/2011/06/23/saddle-comparison-brooks-b17-swift-and-berthoud-touring/

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/DarMZOShnMw


On 4/17/19 5:30 PM, John G. wrote:

Kai,

I have a B17 Select on my Roadeo and a Berthoud Aspin on my Dream, 
which have similar reach and saddle-to-bar drop. The B17 Select has 
far more miles on it, and is more broken in. The Aspin feels 
noticeably narrower. Not a bad thing--the overall fit and feel of the 
two saddles is very different. I'm happy with both.


On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:03:05 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
NY wrote:


How does sizing compare between Berthoud and Brooks? The widest
Berthoud is around 180mm, but their sides are much closer to
vertical than Brooks', so I'm wondering if their widest models
have similar sit bone comfort/measurements to Brooks with 20 or so
more millimeters. I love my Brooks B68, and would like to find an
equivalent saddle available for sale.
-Kai



--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[John G.]

Kai,

I have a B17 Select on my Roadeo and a Berthoud Aspin on my Dream, which 
have similar reach and saddle-to-bar drop. The B17 Select has far more 
miles on it, and is more broken in. The Aspin feels noticeably narrower. 
Not a bad thing--the overall fit and feel of the two saddles is very 
different. I'm happy with both.

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:03:05 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
wrote:
>
> How does sizing compare between Berthoud and Brooks? The widest Berthoud 
> is around 180mm, but their sides are much closer to vertical than Brooks', 
> so I'm wondering if their widest models have similar sit bone 
> comfort/measurements to Brooks with 20 or so more millimeters. I love my 
> Brooks B68, and would like to find an equivalent saddle available for sale.
> -Kai
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

How does sizing compare between Berthoud and Brooks? The widest Berthoud is 
around 180mm, but their sides are much closer to vertical than Brooks', so 
I'm wondering if their widest models have similar sit bone 
comfort/measurements to Brooks with 20 or so more millimeters. I love my 
Brooks B68, and would like to find an equivalent saddle available for sale.
-Kai

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[William deRosset]

Dear Matt,

The short version is "never," and "as little as possible," respectively.

As long as the saddle remains comfortable, isn't bottoming out on the rails, 
seatpost, etc, and isn't splaying unacceptably, don't think twice and keep on 
riding.


Best Regards,

Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Mat Grewe]

Anyone have advice on how much and when to adjust the tension of a Berthoud 
saddle?  I have probably around 5,000 miles on an Aspin and it has been 
great thus far.

Mat Grewe
Driftless Wisconsin

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Drew Henson]

Just to add my experience, I have two berthoud aspins that I really like. 
One is almost a year old and one is only about 3 months in. The year old 
one is very very comfortable. I had a brooks b17 for about 8 years before 
that and it was fine. Plenty comfortable but eventually i couldn't get the 
tension where i wanted it.  

Before I splurged for the second berthoud I tried a selle anatomica and it 
took me one ride to figure out it wasn't for me. Not only is it way too 
"soft", but the relatively flat shape caused the sharp edges to rub against 
my legs. I also didn't care for the leather finishing.

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Tom Horton]

this is about berthoud saddles. for what it's worth, I got one from James a 
couple years back (hi James) and have ridden it maybe a thousand miles, and 
no problems, great comfortable saddle. I weigh about 190 pounds. I have 
used only Obenaufs on it, have tensioned it slightly.  maybe there is 
something to that Proofide causing a problem.  I was surprised how fast 
mine went from stiff to broken in...but no sign it's breaking down.  tom h

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
> comfortable than the Aspin?
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:25:00 PM UTC-7, Drw wrote:
>
> I got the h2 purchased 4 days ago direct from sell anatomica. The “2” 
> versions were supposed to be the fixed versions. I can’t speak to previous 
> iterations, since I never owned one, but I’m definitely gonna complain 
> about this thing. Beyond it being super droopy (butt on seatpost  during 
> 1st 5 mile ride, after extreme retensioning out of the box) it just reeks 
> of low quality everywhere. A 80$ brooks might weigh a bit more, but it 
> costs half the price and will likely last 15x longer.


I got a Selle Anatomica saddle years ago when they were first released to 
try, and it didn't really work for me (its sides were too wide for my fat 
thighs). However, I was under the impression that these are unlike Brooks 
or Berthoud saddles in that one *should* have the leather slung like a 
hammock. Thus, the leather being a bit loose and droopy is expected. If 
you've seen the original intro videos of the underside of the Selle 
Anatomica saddle when it was ridden, the swaying/flexing leather top 
clearly demonstrated this characteristic. Nevertheless, your butt shouldn't 
contact the seatpost mast at all, and especially after tensioning. Have you 
confirmed that you got the right saddle for your weight?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Steve Palincsar]

On 4/15/19 11:03 PM, Drw wrote:

This is not about berthound saddles, but I’m a little frustrated, so excuse the 
venting.



You're right, it's not.  And adding it to this discussion does a 
disservice to everyone.  You should start a new discussion about Selle 
an Atomica saddles.  That way, people interested in them will be able to 
find your comments, and you won't run the risk of confusing people who 
noting the subject line may think you're speaking about Berthoud saddles.




  I’ve ridden brooks for years. They were all vaguely comfortable and 
exceedingly durable. After reading the bikepacking.com reviews of the new 
improved selle anatomica, I bit the bullet , hoping for better than decently 
comfortable and lighter weight. What arrived was an incredibly loose saddle 
that needed 10 + full turns of tensioning and still feels loose. An instruction 
sheet that claims they have the longest rails in the business, oh but you can’t 
use the full length of them or they might break..and A claim of high 
durability, oh but make sure you get your butt off the saddle on every bump or 
it might break. Also I ordered their heaviest duty model. How is this so hard 
to get right?


--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Drw]

I got the h2 purchased 4 days ago direct from sell anatomica. The “2” versions 
were supposed to be the fixed versions. I can’t speak to previous iterations, 
since I never owned one, but I’m definitely gonna complain about this thing. 
Beyond it being super droopy (butt on seatpost  during 1st 5 mile ride, after 
extreme retensioning out of the box) it just reeks of low quality everywhere. A 
80$ brooks might weigh a bit more, but it costs half the price and will likely 
last 15x longer. 

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Drw]

This is not about berthound saddles, but I’m a little frustrated, so excuse the 
venting. I’ve ridden brooks for years. They were all vaguely comfortable and 
exceedingly durable. After reading the bikepacking.com reviews of the new 
improved selle anatomica, I bit the bullet , hoping for better than decently 
comfortable and lighter weight. What arrived was an incredibly loose saddle 
that needed 10 + full turns of tensioning and still feels loose. An instruction 
sheet that claims they have the longest rails in the business, oh but you can’t 
use the full length of them or they might break..and A claim of high 
durability, oh but make sure you get your butt off the saddle on every bump or 
it might break. Also I ordered their heaviest duty model. How is this so hard 
to get right?

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Don Compton]

My experience with leather saddles is so different than this discussion. 
For years I was using Brooks B-17 Ti models and every one developed a hump 
that made them uncomfortable for even a short ride. I sold them all. I have 
two Berthoud saddles and have not experienced any of these problems 
mentioned. I have used Odenaufs ( recommend bt Mr. Heine) and after a 
fairly long break-in, they have remained very comfortable.

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 5:24:45 AM UTC-7, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
> comfortable than the Aspin?
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Jan Heine]

Regarding the different Berthoud models, their less-expensive saddles are 
not rebuildable. They are intended for OEM bikes in Europe, and they use 
rivets instead of their custom bolts. At Rene Herse Cycles, we only sell 
the fully rebuildable top-of-the-line models, which also seem to have the 
best leather.

What I love about Berthoud is how carefully they select the parts of the 
hide to make the tops, whereas most makers simply cut as many tops out of a 
hide as possible. Leather is a natural product, and the knowledge of how to 
orient the saddle tops on the hide so that they don't stretch or become 
lopsided is a well-guarded secret. It has been handed down by generations 
of leatherworkers from the old Idéale factory, who then helped Berthoud set 
up their saddle production more than a decade ago after the original Idéale 
production ceased.

Jan Heine
Rene Herse Cycles
Reborn in the Cascade Mountains
www.renehersecycles.com

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Jan Heine]

James,

Thank you for the additional information.

I believe Proofide contains neatsfoot oil, which breaks down the leather 
fibers. We don't recommend it, because it tends to do what you describe: 
Suddenly softens the leather and then has it break down completely. I 
haven't used Proofide, so I don't know whether it affects the leather of 
Brooks saddles (which tends to be harder) than the higher-quality leather 
of the Berthoud saddles differently.

We sell Obenauf's Leather Preservative instead, which just conditions and 
waterproofs the leather without softening it.

Jan Heine
Rene Herse Cycles
Reborn in the Cascade Mountains
www.renehersecycles.com

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[James / Analog Cycles]

My experience as a retailer has been that asking manufacturers why their 
stuff is falling apart is rarely fruitful.  You mainly get denials, and 
statements like 'that's the first I've heard of it.'  I've seen this across 
frames, lights, saddles, rims, the list goes on.  I won't name names, but 
it's a common BS reaction.  In one particular case, I contacted a big 
company about carbon frames that were developing a creak in the bottom 
bracket.  They told me it was the first they'd heard of it, and told me to 
shim it with a beer can.  (press fit BB)  About a month later, the company 
was making pressfit BB's with a slightly bigger OD, so they wouldn't 
creak.  They made them in a few sizes, so as your frame wore out, you could 
stuff a bigger one in there.  An expensive beer can shim.  Anyway, I don't 
typically bother to ask a maker why something is failing.  I just stop 
using it.  And I would trade the saddle for a Brooks, if someone's wore 
out.  This was when I co-owned Gravel & Grind, so that was about 2-3 years 
ago when I was selling these.  Again, if you are using one and like it, 
great, keep at it!  I've tried every leather saddle out there, and although 
I really like many of the Berthoud features and the comfort, I'm sticking 
with Brooks.  

-James

On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 12:06:13 PM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> That’s very frustrating and sad to hear. I wonder whether this is 
> something new-ish. I have 3 of their saddles and haven’t had this 
> experience. But mine were all purchased around 2015. May I ask if your 
> experiences were more recent than this?  Maybe it’s some sort of new 
> treatment of the leather. I’d, too, be interested in hearing what Berthoud 
> customer service had to say about it. 
>
> Thank you for sharing this info! 

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[James / Analog Cycles]

The saddles were all treated with proofide, which seems to work pretty well 
on brooks saddles.  My understanding it's a leather preservative, not a 
leather conditioner.  Pencil eraser sized glob on the bottom, one time, 
then small treatments on the top as needed.  

Regarding a bad batch, I suppose it's possible.  I've seen it with tubes.  
The leather looked great, super thick, minimal flaws. 

I'm glad so many people who have the saddles are having good luck.  I want 
Brooks to have competition!  Maybe Jan will send me another Berthoud to try 
out, ha!  

As a side note, FWIW, anytime I have written to Rene Herse/Compass to ask 
about a warranty issue, they have always hooked it up.  

-james

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
> comfortable than the Aspin?
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Steve Palincsar]

I've got 7, some a year old, some around 10 years old.  I had one that 
went from brand-new-hard to very soft in a matter of 100 miles / 2 
weeks.  They replaced it under warranty -- with the Ti rail model!  
Other than that, I think I've had one that's needed serious tensioning.


On 4/14/19 11:57 AM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

Och, James! How frustrating for you and all involved! May I ask what Berthoud's 
response and support as been?

My experience with my saddle, which I've had over a year, in extensive use, is 
it is by far my preferred saddle, though I've only a data point of one saddle. 
Prior to reading this, I'd figured I would use my Rivet saddles and then get 
Berthoud saddles once I needed to. Hearing your experience has me wondering 
about that plan, so knowing Berthoud's customer service record would be very 
helpful.

With abandon,
Patrick


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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[John Phillips]

James,
Is it possible that the failing Berthoud saddles were waterproofed with 
the same material, and this had a hand in breaking down the leather? 
Not throwing stones here, just really curious.
John

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Jan Heine]

James,

I am surprised by your experience that Berthoud saddles wore out 
prematurely. How many saddles were affected? If it's a small number, it 
could have been one hide of leather that wasn't as good as the others...

We've sold hundreds of these saddles, and amongst our team, we've got about 
a dozen in regular – often hard – use. Testing the Juniper Ridge tires was 
hard on the saddle - long, cold, wet gravel rides on a fender-less bike. I 
put a small saddlebag under the saddle to protect it as much as possible, 
and it's still fine. So are all the others we have in use, including one of 
the very first prototypes (No. 024, I believe) that I have used on my Urban 
Bike for 12 years now. 

The leather tops are replaceable – not just in theory by drilling out 
rivets and resetting them, but in practice using a simple Torx wrench – but 
we've sold very few tops, indicating that these saddles last as long as the 
other posters suggest. The only problem we've heard of is that the screws 
can loosen as the leather shrinks a bit with age. We recommend tightening 
them every 6-8 months. If you lose one, we sell the replacements 
individually, not just as a set.

Jan Heine
Rene Herse Cycles
Reborn in the Cascade Mountains
www.renehersecycles.com

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[David Wadstrup]

That’s very frustrating and sad to hear. I wonder whether this is something 
new-ish. I have 3 of their saddles and haven’t had this experience. But mine 
were all purchased around 2015. May I ask if your experiences were more recent 
than this?  Maybe it’s some sort of new treatment of the leather. I’d, too, be 
interested in hearing what Berthoud customer service had to say about it. 

Thank you for sharing this info! 

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Och, James! How frustrating for you and all involved! May I ask what Berthoud's 
response and support as been?

My experience with my saddle, which I've had over a year, in extensive use, is 
it is by far my preferred saddle, though I've only a data point of one saddle. 
Prior to reading this, I'd figured I would use my Rivet saddles and then get 
Berthoud saddles once I needed to. Hearing your experience has me wondering 
about that plan, so knowing Berthoud's customer service record would be very 
helpful.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[James / Analog Cycles]

Re: all the follow up questions about premature wear.  The leather gets 
stretched and broken in way to fast.  They go from being hard as a rock to 
super broken in within a half a year, and then instead of just staying 
broken in, they start to break down.  In other words, the saddle becomes to 
hammock'd out to be usable.  I've personally had 3 do it, before I caught 
the hint, and had it happen on a number of customer saddles as well, again 
to the point that I stopped selling them.  Additionally the finish on the 
leather would crack and flake.  Again, I've seen a few that have lasted.  I 
am drawn to the saddles, and want them to work.  It's more comfortable, 
before they become unusable, than a Brooks, for me and many folks.  But I 
can't get behind an expensive product that wears out in a spectacularly 
short period of time.  

I have no idea of Rene Herse knows about it.  Obviously their success rate 
with them is high enough that they can keep selling them.  Mine was not, so 
I don't!  

-james @ analog cycles  

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
> comfortable than the Aspin?
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Collin A]

I am also curious about the premature wear! Was this recent or a while ago?

On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 4:54:38 PM UTC-7, James / Analog Cycles 
wrote:
>
> For whatever it's worth, as a retailer, I sold Berthoud saddles for about 
> a year.  I rode them, and really liked them.  For about 6 months.  Then I 
> started to see customer saddles, and my saddles wear out prematurely. Like, 
> in 6 months.  Or after one long tour.  Not because of rain, or rider 
> weight, or too much saddle goop.  These were experienced Brooks riders who 
> wanted something a bit better, and ended up getting something that was 
> initially better, and then ended up being a bad investment very quickly.  I 
> had my fingers crossed for these saddles, but like so many other non-Brooks 
> leather saddles (Selle Anatomica has the same issue, etc), I found I could 
> not continue to sell them in good faith.  I know some folks who still ride 
> them and like them, good on you.  But at least 4 outta five that we sold 
> did not last nearly as long as a 200 buck saddle should.  I don't know if 
> this is the right thread for such info, but there it is!  
>
> Caveat: if you have one, and like it, don't jump down my throat.  I am 
> merely relating an experience based on selling 20 or so of these saddles.  
> If you have a different experience, based on riding a few of these, great, 
> enjoy it! 
>
> -james
>
> On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>>
>> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
>> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
>> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
>> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
>> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
>> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
>> comfortable than the Aspin?
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[John Phillips]

James,
 Which parts of your customers' saddles were wearing out? The leather, 
titanium or steel rails, or the plastic component, or...? This is the first 
I've ever heard of premature wear on Berthoud saddles.
   I wonder if Rene Herse Cycles sees the same problems?
   I have two and haven't had any problems. (knock on wood & fingers 
crossed)
John

On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 4:54:38 PM UTC-7, James / Analog Cycles 
wrote:
>
> For whatever it's worth, as a retailer, I sold Berthoud saddles for about 
> a year.  I rode them, and really liked them.  For about 6 months.  Then I 
> started to see customer saddles, and my saddles wear out prematurely. Like, 
> in 6 months.  Or after one long tour. 
> -james
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[David Wadstrup]

That’s interesting, James. Would you mind going into greater detail about your 
experiences? What do you mean exactly by them not lasting? Did they fall apart 
or brake or did the leather deteriorate? Just curious. I’m appreciative of your 
warning, and would love to hear more before buying one. 

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[James / Analog Cycles]

For whatever it's worth, as a retailer, I sold Berthoud saddles for about a 
year.  I rode them, and really liked them.  For about 6 months.  Then I 
started to see customer saddles, and my saddles wear out prematurely. Like, 
in 6 months.  Or after one long tour.  Not because of rain, or rider 
weight, or too much saddle goop.  These were experienced Brooks riders who 
wanted something a bit better, and ended up getting something that was 
initially better, and then ended up being a bad investment very quickly.  I 
had my fingers crossed for these saddles, but like so many other non-Brooks 
leather saddles (Selle Anatomica has the same issue, etc), I found I could 
not continue to sell them in good faith.  I know some folks who still ride 
them and like them, good on you.  But at least 4 outta five that we sold 
did not last nearly as long as a 200 buck saddle should.  I don't know if 
this is the right thread for such info, but there it is!  

Caveat: if you have one, and like it, don't jump down my throat.  I am 
merely relating an experience based on selling 20 or so of these saddles.  
If you have a different experience, based on riding a few of these, great, 
enjoy it! 

-james

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
> comfortable than the Aspin?
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Collin A]

You can order direct from GB, and with the current exchange rate it's 
actually cheaper to order through them than through a distributor. It will 
probably take longer to get the saddle, though.


On Thursday, April 11, 2019 at 9:48:25 AM UTC-7, Chris Birkenmaier wrote:
>
> Thanks for the info on the Aubisque!  I wasn't aware of that model.  My 
> research shows its the same proportions as the Mente and the leather 
> attachments seem to be like the upscale Vars.  Kind of a middle price 
> between the two.  Trying to find a US seller is not easy.
>
> On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>>
>> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
>> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
>> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
>> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
>> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
>> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
>> comfortable than the Aspin?
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Thanks for the info on the Aubisque!  I wasn't aware of that model.  My 
research shows its the same proportions as the Mente and the leather 
attachments seem to be like the upscale Vars.  Kind of a middle price 
between the two.  Trying to find a US seller is not easy.

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
> comfortable than the Aspin?
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Collin A]

Doing a little digging (because I am looking to replace my brooks that has 
eaten 3 pants now), it looks like the Aubisque saddle is the replacement to 
the mente and brings the model more in-line with their other models. Still 
just as wide it seems.

https://berthoudcycles.fr/en/1371-leather-saddle-aubisque-brown.html

On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 at 12:25:12 PM UTC-7, Chris Birkenmaier wrote:
>
> Just have to chime in since there isn't normally a lot of chatter around 
> Berthoud saddles.  As much as I adore Brooks, the Mente is one of my all 
> time favorites.  I have alt bars on all my bikes except for the Roadini 
> which has Albaastache and the Mente works very well for me.  I like the 
> long nose and sleek profile from the side.  Quality abounds on these 
> saddles.  I've noticed the Mente is getting harder to find available.  Not 
> sure if they are phasing it out?
>
> On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>>
>> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
>> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
>> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
>> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
>> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
>> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
>> comfortable than the Aspin?
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Just have to chime in since there isn't normally a lot of chatter around 
Berthoud saddles.  As much as I adore Brooks, the Mente is one of my all 
time favorites.  I have alt bars on all my bikes except for the Roadini 
which has Albaastache and the Mente works very well for me.  I like the 
long nose and sleek profile from the side.  Quality abounds on these 
saddles.  I've noticed the Mente is getting harder to find available.  Not 
sure if they are phasing it out?

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
> comfortable than the Aspin?
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[oldmangabe]

I've been riding a Galibier for about two years on my randonneur bike. It 
took me (170lbs) quite a while to break it in. I almost gave up and swapped 
it back for the Aspin, but a combo of rainy and sweaty rides finally did 
the trick. 

For me the S/G works best with bars below saddle, while the Aspin works 
slightly below, at, and above saddle heights.

I like both models equally. I decided to try switching to the Galibier 
because the bars on my rando are 2-3 inches below my saddle and I've come 
to appreciate less pressure on the backs of my thighs on rides over 200k. 
It feels similar to using a Flite or a Fabric Scoop saddle. Though the 
Aspin is a great all around saddle for me as well. YMMV

Gabe

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 5:24:45 AM UTC-7, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for 
> very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with 
> the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for 
> bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the 
> Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here 
> have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less 
> comfortable than the Aspin?
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Bill M.]

Don,

Why don't you take my custom-carved B17 out for a spin?  Cutting out the 
middle makes a huge difference, there's no material there to create a hump. 
 In any case, I'll have it out of service for now ( I'll be trying 
something quite different on my Rawland, an SMP Hybrid is due to arrive on 
Thursday) so it won't be a problem for me.  For that matter, I have an 
Imperial available, too.  It's not like I'm far away!  

Bill
Stockton, CA

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 12:42:55 PM UTC-7, Don Compton wrote:
>
> I've been a Rivendell fan for years having owned 4 different bikes. I used 
> B-17 saddles for years, but with wear, as the area under my sit bones would 
> settle, the hump in the saddle( running for-aft) would cause extreme 
> discomfort. I just had to give up on Brooks. I have been using a Secialized 
> Phenom for about a year, but it's not so great on longer rides like I 
> remember my Brooks in the early years of ownership. Has anyone with issues 
> similar to mine switched over to a Berthoud saddle and felt some 
> improvement?
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Bill in Roswell GA]

The leather used for B17s is not as thick as it was 30 years ago. I have a 
1985 B17 narrow which I bought used. I would say the leather is as thick as 
a modern Professional model, comparing to new ones at the shop. It was a 
little dry when I got it about 9 years ago, but a few treatments cured 
that. It still has its shape. The spanner has only been turned a half turn 
by me. The B17 is mounted on my 1985 Bridgestone and primarily is used for 
running errands, usually less than 10 miles round trip. 

Modern B17s look like an old sway back horse after a couple of years. I can 
see how turning the spanner would cause a ridge down the middle. No wonder 
I've come to prefer flat saddles!

Cheers,
Bill in Roswell, GA

On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 4:20:27 PM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> I have heard different things from different "experts". Some say the 
> leather is not the same as in the olden days. Some say the leather quality 
> is different on different models. Some say the leather does not differ 
> between models. So there is  different info going around. Hard to get to 
> the bottom of it.
>
>  I did get confirmation from Brooks that misaligned rivets, crooked Brooks 
> name plates, crooked  adjuster bolt, and crooked noses,  different height 
> Springs, are part of the handmade process and do not cause a problem for 
> functionality .
>  Maybe I will email them again and see if I get an answer on the leather. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Lungimsam]

 I have heard different things from different "experts". Some say the leather 
is not the same as in the olden days. Some say the leather quality is different 
on different models. Some say the leather does not differ between models. So 
there is  different info going around. Hard to get to the bottom of it.

 I did get confirmation from Brooks that misaligned rivets, crooked Brooks name 
plates, crooked  adjuster bolt, and crooked noses,  different height Springs, 
are part of the handmade process and do not cause a problem for functionality .
 Maybe I will email them again and see if I get an answer on the leather. 

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Eric]

Thanks for the link regarding the saddle repair services!

But in reference to the Imperial (which are nice) but it still begs the 
question if current standard B17's are made as well as they used to be. 

I for one think they're not simply because of how quickly & unevenly they 
break in along with the development of the dreaded "hump".

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

I've never used them but these guys will re-form your saddle with a "love 
channel":

http://rideyourbike.com/brookssaddlerepair.shtml



On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 3:42:55 PM UTC-4, Don Compton wrote:
>
> I've been a Rivendell fan for years having owned 4 different bikes. I used 
> B-17 saddles for years, but with wear, as the area under my sit bones would 
> settle, the hump in the saddle( running for-aft) would cause extreme 
> discomfort. I just had to give up on Brooks. I have been using a Secialized 
> Phenom for about a year, but it's not so great on longer rides like I 
> remember my Brooks in the early years of ownership. Has anyone with issues 
> similar to mine switched over to a Berthoud saddle and felt some 
> improvement?
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/17/2016 08:58 AM, jeffrey kane wrote:


So faced with the decision to buy a new Team Pro -- or try yet another 
saddle -- I went with the Aspin (Arivis, actually -- but same shape) 
because that saddle also looked to fit my needs based on the numbers. 
And it did -- but here's the odd part -- I must be the only person to 
be disappointed with it's longevity. It broke in very quickly (read: 
sagged) and once, when soaked in a rainstorm I didn't see coming -- 
sagged so much that I thought it was a goner. To it's credit, I was 
able to get it back into shape again and am finishing a second season 
with it -- though, I've had to run the tension bolt in a bunch more 
than expected -- and again, I always have that nagging feeling that 
it's sagging towards state of ultimate uselessness.


I like that I can at least order new leather for it -- but wish I'd 
had that 500 mile break-in period everyone talks about and the 
impression that the leather is somehow thicker. Mine does not seem 
overly thick compared to the Books models I've used in the past ... 
and well, it's not behaving much differently, either.


It is comfortable, however,  and I get that these are leather saddles, 
therefor somewhat subject to the varying nature of "natural"  material 
-- so I suppose I'll try replacing the leather sooner or later ... if 
not next season then likely the season after.


I am curious if anyone else has had a similar Berthoud experience -- I 
weigh between 150 and 160lb, generally, btw.




I've not been caught in the rain without fenders or a saddle cover 
riding a leather saddle since the 1990s, so I can't speak to how well a 
Berthoud saddle would do in those conditions.  I can say, last year I 
bought a dark brown Aspin that broke in alarmingly quickly - very soft 
in just 50 miles.  I contacted the seller who in turn contacted Gilles 
Berthoud and learned they'd had a few reported cases like mine.  The 
saddle was replaced under warranty, with an Aravis, which has been just 
fine, as have the other five Berthoud saddles.   As for weight: mine's 
substantially more.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[jeffrey kane]

I'll chime in with a quick six year synopsis of my leather saddle 
experience:

I like B-17's with upright bars but they don't work in drop bar mode for me 
(too wide at the rear and in-between my legs). I tried a Brooks Swift in 
drop bar mode for a while, which, wasn't too bad but did sag so much over a 
short period of use (maybe two seasons) that I started to become frustrated 
with the whole finicky leather saddle thing altogether. I haven't enjoyed 
the continual evolving towards sag experience much but I do like the feel 
of leather saddles (way more than the Cambiums -- but that's another story).

Next I tried an older Team Pro, which, by the numbers seemed like it would 
be a better fit for my drop bar position (and it was). Unfortunately, it 
deteriorated and ripped (but that was really due to it's age more than 
anything else). 

So faced with the decision to buy a new Team Pro -- or try yet another 
saddle -- I went with the Aspin (Arivis, actually -- but same shape) 
because that saddle also looked to fit my needs based on the numbers. And 
it did -- but here's the odd part -- I must be the only person to be 
disappointed with it's longevity. It broke in very quickly (read: sagged) 
and once, when soaked in a rainstorm I didn't see coming -- sagged so much 
that I thought it was a goner. To it's credit, I was able to get it back 
into shape again and am finishing a second season with it -- though, I've 
had to run the tension bolt in a bunch more than expected -- and again, I 
always have that nagging feeling that it's sagging towards state of 
ultimate uselessness. 

I like that I can at least order new leather for it -- but wish I'd had 
that 500 mile break-in period everyone talks about and the impression that 
the leather is somehow thicker. Mine does not seem overly thick compared to 
the Books models I've used in the past ... and well, it's not behaving much 
differently, either. 

It is comfortable, however,  and I get that these are leather saddles, 
therefor somewhat subject to the varying nature of "natural"  material -- 
so I suppose I'll try replacing the leather sooner or later ... if not next 
season then likely the season after.

I am curious if anyone else has had a similar Berthoud experience -- I 
weigh between 150 and 160lb, generally, btw.

On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 7:59:44 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>
> On 10/17/2016 12:36 AM, Lungimsam wrote: 
> > Is tge name pronounced: 
> > "Ber-toad", or 
>
> > "Bear-tood" 
> According to google translate, bear-too, with a rolling r 
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/17/2016 12:36 AM, Lungimsam wrote:

Is tge name pronounced:
"Ber-toad", or



"Bear-tood"

According to google translate, bear-too, with a rolling r




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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Lungimsam]

Is tge name pronounced:
"Ber-toad", or
"Bear-tood"
Or some other way?

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[RonaTD]

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 2:42:55 PM UTC-5, Don Compton wrote:
>
>  Has anyone with issues similar to mine switched over to a Berthoud saddle 
> and felt some improvement?
>

I had a bunch of B17's over the years, most of which developed pretty large 
twists, and all of which tended to cause sores. I have a Berthoud Touring 
on my brevet bike and I have been very happy with it. 

Several years ago Sean Virnig tipped me to the Dimension Afton Classic, 
which has a shape and size that is very close to the B17, and cost about 
$25. It's not as wide in the back, only 145mm, but the extra width at the 
back of the B17 (and Berthoud) is where the Afton starts to taper, in back 
of where you actually sit. I've ridden the Afton on a 600km with no 
trouble. I used the Afton instead of the Berthoud on the Ride Across 
Wisconsin (178 miles) this year because of the wet weather and it was 
great. Alas, the Afton Classic is no longer made, but the Soma Ensho is 
pretty much identical (but twice the price) and, like the Afton, actually 
made by Velo/Taiwan. For me the critical dimensions are the shape between 
the legs, the sit bone support area, and (very important) the rise of the 
back area (or, the dip in the middle, between the nose and the tail). The 
B17, Berthoud, Afton, and Ensho are all very similar in those dimensions. 
Interesting additional note - my wife loves the Afton - first time we've 
ever agreed on a saddle.


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Lungimsam]

Perhaps a brooks imperial would eliminate the hump?

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Eric]

Just made the switch & could not be more happy!

The "hump" on the B17 just seemed to develop way to fast in more recent 
B17's I've purchased, both the standard & copper rivet B17 models. The 
"hump" made the ride just awful! 

It begs the question, are they as well made as they used to be?!




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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/16/2016 05:53 PM, John Bokman wrote:
I switched several years ago from Brooks B-17 which I had ridden on 
for years on several bikes. i had issues with decomposition of B-17s 
over time to where they became uncomfortable - even with the "Select" 
version. Also, I found as I began to ride in a more forward leaning 
manner (lowered my bars for more comfort, contrary to what is often 
preached here), the B-17 shape didn't work for me.


So I switched to Berthoud and have been happy as a clam ever since. 
I've been riding the Aspin now for about 3 years. Better quality 
(thicker, stiffer leather; no hamered rivets to eventually dig into 
ones backside as the leather around the rivet wears; completely 
rebuildable saddle because the saddle is bolted to the rails, not 
hammered in. Just a better design, in my opinion.


Caveat: it took me 500 miles to break the saddle to where riding 
anything more than 20 miles was comfortable. But, after 3 years, the 
saddle is broken, but not broken. Just thicker, stiffer material that 
will last much longer, I am sure. Highly recommended.




It takes me about 500 miles to break in an Aspin, too.  I presume you 
mean "broken in but not broken" - and that's very true.


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[John Bokman]

I switched several years ago from Brooks B-17 which I had ridden on for 
years on several bikes. i had issues with decomposition of B-17s over time 
to where they became uncomfortable - even with the "Select" version. Also, 
I found as I began to ride in a more forward leaning manner (lowered my 
bars for more comfort, contrary to what is often preached here), the B-17 
shape didn't work for me. 

So I switched to Berthoud and have been happy as a clam ever since. I've 
been riding the Aspin now for about 3 years. Better quality (thicker, 
stiffer leather; no hamered rivets to eventually dig into ones backside as 
the leather around the rivet wears; completely rebuildable saddle because 
the saddle is bolted to the rails, not hammered in. Just a better design, 
in my opinion.

Caveat: it took me 500 miles to break the saddle to where riding anything 
more than 20 miles was comfortable. But, after 3 years, the saddle is 
broken, but not broken. Just thicker, stiffer material that will last much 
longer, I am sure. Highly recommended.

John

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 12:42:55 PM UTC-7, Don Compton wrote:
>
> I've been a Rivendell fan for years having owned 4 different bikes. I used 
> B-17 saddles for years, but with wear, as the area under my sit bones would 
> settle, the hump in the saddle( running for-aft) would cause extreme 
> discomfort. I just had to give up on Brooks. I have been using a Secialized 
> Phenom for about a year, but it's not so great on longer rides like I 
> remember my Brooks in the early years of ownership. Has anyone with issues 
> similar to mine switched over to a Berthoud saddle and felt some 
> improvement?
>

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Anton Tutter]

I have a Berthoud touring saddle and several Brooks Pros.  I have come to 
prefer the Berthoud, but still ride other bikes with Brooks and don't 
really have complaints.

The Berthoud leather is thicker, harder (I like a firm saddle), and flatter 
than the leather on a Brooks Pro. The Berthoud performs best for me when 
completely horizontal, while the Brooks performs best with the nose canted 
up slightly.

FWIW, both the Berthoud and the Brooks Pro are used on bikes with the hbars 
set slightly below saddle level.  For setups with the bars at or above 
saddle height, I prefer a wider saddle like a B17 with the nose canted up.

Anton



On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 1:07:09 AM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Anyone here have experience with Berthoud Saddles? From what I can tell 
 they are thicker, better quality, and more comfortable than Brooks are, 
 sounding like what people say of Brooks from 30 years ago. Boulder cycles 
 also has a 6 month saddle guarantee, which is attractive.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[john]

I'm loving my berthoud saddle (Aspin, which is their touring model I 
believe.) It's 155mm wide, which is narrower than the brooks b-17 it 
replaced. The leather is definitely thick and the plastic, while 
off-putting to some, is rock solid great stuff. I'm a light guy (150 pounds 
at 6' tall). I mention this because if all their saddles are the same, it 
will take a long long time to break the saddle to the butt. For me, I 
needed about 500 miles until it was okay; I needed 1000 miles until I 
really loved it. As others have mentioned, the saddle should be level (I 
actually used a level to level mine). It's amazing how micro-changes in 
tilt really affect the feel of this saddle. If you're a rider who wants a 
narrower saddle than the venerable b-17, and you're willing to pay for 
quality leather craftsmanship, the Berthoud is a good choice.


On Tuesday, April 1, 2014 10:07:09 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Anyone here have experience with Berthoud Saddles? From what I can tell 
 they are thicker, better quality, and more comfortable than Brooks are, 
 sounding like what people say of Brooks from 30 years ago. Boulder cycles 
 also has a 6 month saddle guarantee, which is attractive.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Ron Mc]

My buddy loves them, but when he outfitted their tandem with matching 
Bertoud saddles, his wife balked, and he had to go back and change his 
color scheme.  
They generally run narrower, and are definitely flatter across the top - 
they don't have that characteristic Brooks sag. Before you spring for one, 
you might want to look at Rivet saddles - a bit less expensive and more 
width options.  

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:07:09 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Anyone here have experience with Berthoud Saddles? From what I can tell 
 they are thicker, better quality, and more comfortable than Brooks are, 
 sounding like what people say of Brooks from 30 years ago. Boulder cycles 
 also has a 6 month saddle guarantee, which is attractive.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Matthew J]

I used Berthoud saddles from when first available before switching to 
Brooks Cambium last Fall.

The design of the saddle is different from the B-17.  Not only thicker, but 
as others note somewhat more narrow.  The top is flatter as well.  

For me the best Berthoud set up was horizontal to the ground.  Angling the 
front end up as many prefer for the B-17 is uncomfortable with the 
Berthoud.  

Once I had it set up properly, I found it a very comfortable saddle with 
almost no break in.  It was equally comfortable for me on my daily bike 
with upright handle bars as on my road bike with drops.  I was equally 
happy with it commuting, on weekend pleasure / distance rides and on 
several tours.

Berthoud is very durable as well.  Mine has at least 8k miles on it (I 
really do not keep track of mileage that may be more).  I treated it once a 
year with the wax that comes with a new purchase.  Did not need to tighten 
it until late last Summer, just before I got my second Cambium.

The rear strap attachments are easy to use.  It also has a Kickflix (sp?) 
attachment if you own any of the bags that use that set up.

As for the Cambium, I have been pleasantly surprised that set up and feel 
is far more Berthoud like than traditional Brooks.  So far the road and 
commuter Cambiums are holding up very well.   We'll have to see if they are 
as durable as the Berthoud.

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:07:09 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Anyone here have experience with Berthoud Saddles? From what I can tell 
 they are thicker, better quality, and more comfortable than Brooks are, 
 sounding like what people say of Brooks from 30 years ago. Boulder cycles 
 also has a 6 month saddle guarantee, which is attractive.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Ron Mc]

the main reason you angle up a Brooks saddle is because of the sag that is 
designed into it.  That is how gravity puts your sit bones on target.  With 
a Brooks saddle flat, you're falling forward the whole time.  

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 7:42:14 AM UTC-5, Matthew J wrote:

 I used Berthoud saddles from when first available before switching to 
 Brooks Cambium last Fall.

 The design of the saddle is different from the B-17.  Not only thicker, 
 but as others note somewhat more narrow.  The top is flatter as well.  

 For me the best Berthoud set up was horizontal to the ground.  Angling the 
 front end up as many prefer for the B-17 is uncomfortable with the 
 Berthoud.  

 Once I had it set up properly, I found it a very comfortable saddle with 
 almost no break in.  It was equally comfortable for me on my daily bike 
 with upright handle bars as on my road bike with drops.  I was equally 
 happy with it commuting, on weekend pleasure / distance rides and on 
 several tours.

 Berthoud is very durable as well.  Mine has at least 8k miles on it (I 
 really do not keep track of mileage that may be more).  I treated it once a 
 year with the wax that comes with a new purchase.  Did not need to tighten 
 it until late last Summer, just before I got my second Cambium.

 The rear strap attachments are easy to use.  It also has a Kickflix (sp?) 
 attachment if you own any of the bags that use that set up.

 As for the Cambium, I have been pleasantly surprised that set up and feel 
 is far more Berthoud like than traditional Brooks.  So far the road and 
 commuter Cambiums are holding up very well.   We'll have to see if they are 
 as durable as the Berthoud.

 On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:07:09 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Anyone here have experience with Berthoud Saddles? From what I can tell 
 they are thicker, better quality, and more comfortable than Brooks are, 
 sounding like what people say of Brooks from 30 years ago. Boulder cycles 
 also has a 6 month saddle guarantee, which is attractive.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Minh]

i have a berthoud on my QB, and overall i'm happy with it.  as others 
mention it is narrower, they are rock hard (you think brooks are hard? HA!) 
and even after 2 years of riding mine is still really hard.  personally i 
have one because i wanted something different from brooks (i've ridden a 
B17 for 10+ years), for me the berthoud does not do anything 'better' then 
a b17, and you can argue it's worst since it's not as comfortable (for me). 
   

sorry i don't mean to sound like i'm against berthoud, i like what the do 
(have a few of their bags), and the quality, build of the saddle is nice, 
no problems there.  but they are not a direct replacement for a brooks.  to 
be fair i know some folks really like the stiffness of the berthouds, 
typically those are the people that complain that brooks feel like hammocks.

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 1:07:09 AM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Anyone here have experience with Berthoud Saddles? From what I can tell 
 they are thicker, better quality, and more comfortable than Brooks are, 
 sounding like what people say of Brooks from 30 years ago. Boulder cycles 
 also has a 6 month saddle guarantee, which is attractive.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Ron Mc]

I've tried to make this point on a couple of threads and a couple of 
forums.  Many people try to attribute others' choices to taste, but in the 
end (pun intended) the choices are based on function - what works for some 
is not going to work for others.  

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 8:44:31 AM UTC-5, Minh wrote:

 i have a berthoud on my QB, and overall i'm happy with it.  as others 
 mention it is narrower, they are rock hard (you think brooks are hard? HA!) 
 and even after 2 years of riding mine is still really hard.  personally i 
 have one because i wanted something different from brooks (i've ridden a 
 B17 for 10+ years), for me the berthoud does not do anything 'better' then 
 a b17, and you can argue it's worst since it's not as comfortable (for me). 


 sorry i don't mean to sound like i'm against berthoud, i like what the do 
 (have a few of their bags), and the quality, build of the saddle is nice, 
 no problems there.  but they are not a direct replacement for a brooks.  to 
 be fair i know some folks really like the stiffness of the berthouds, 
 typically those are the people that complain that brooks feel like hammocks.

 On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 1:07:09 AM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Anyone here have experience with Berthoud Saddles? From what I can tell 
 they are thicker, better quality, and more comfortable than Brooks are, 
 sounding like what people say of Brooks from 30 years ago. Boulder cycles 
 also has a 6 month saddle guarantee, which is attractive.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Matthew J]

Neglected to point out that I am somewhat below average weight for my 
height - 6' 160#s and have a fairly slender frame.  Larger bodied people 
may have different reaction to the Berthoud (which presumably is designed 
with French people in mind).

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 7:42:14 AM UTC-5, Matthew J wrote:

 I used Berthoud saddles from when first available before switching to 
 Brooks Cambium last Fall.

 The design of the saddle is different from the B-17.  Not only thicker, 
 but as others note somewhat more narrow.  The top is flatter as well.  

 For me the best Berthoud set up was horizontal to the ground.  Angling the 
 front end up as many prefer for the B-17 is uncomfortable with the 
 Berthoud.  

 Once I had it set up properly, I found it a very comfortable saddle with 
 almost no break in.  It was equally comfortable for me on my daily bike 
 with upright handle bars as on my road bike with drops.  I was equally 
 happy with it commuting, on weekend pleasure / distance rides and on 
 several tours.

 Berthoud is very durable as well.  Mine has at least 8k miles on it (I 
 really do not keep track of mileage that may be more).  I treated it once a 
 year with the wax that comes with a new purchase.  Did not need to tighten 
 it until late last Summer, just before I got my second Cambium.

 The rear strap attachments are easy to use.  It also has a Kickflix (sp?) 
 attachment if you own any of the bags that use that set up.

 As for the Cambium, I have been pleasantly surprised that set up and feel 
 is far more Berthoud like than traditional Brooks.  So far the road and 
 commuter Cambiums are holding up very well.   We'll have to see if they are 
 as durable as the Berthoud.

 On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:07:09 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Anyone here have experience with Berthoud Saddles? From what I can tell 
 they are thicker, better quality, and more comfortable than Brooks are, 
 sounding like what people say of Brooks from 30 years ago. Boulder cycles 
 also has a 6 month saddle guarantee, which is attractive.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[johnb]

I have one on my Atlantis and find it very comfortable. I have ridden B-17s 
for a long time and find this one well worth recommending.

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 1:07:09 AM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Anyone here have experience with Berthoud Saddles? From what I can tell 
 they are thicker, better quality, and more comfortable than Brooks are, 
 sounding like what people say of Brooks from 30 years ago. Boulder cycles 
 also has a 6 month saddle guarantee, which is attractive.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Cyclofiend Jim]

As far as thickness and materials, there do seem to be variations between 
Brooks models. (And obviously, since it uses organic material, between 
various runs of the same model...)

For my position and shape, I find the B17's to be a bit wrong. They are a 
little too wide (though I can deal with shorter errands on them.) I've 
migrated to the Swift as my go to shape (and - darn it! - also love the 
Swallow, but only because I got lucky once finding one cheaply from a list 
member...) 

Anyway, my original point is that the Swifts I've gotten are uniformally 
thicker than the B17's I've bought or ended up with.  I'm just breaking in 
a new one now, and even though the shape is perfect, the give is still 
quite minimal after ~400 miles or so.  

hope that helps,

- Jim

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Deacon Patrick]

I spoke with Mike and Boulder Bicycle, who said there aren't saddle sack 
loops on the saddles except one model, and when he was concerned the 
plastic might break on the one model when he heard it is a large SaddleSack 
I'm using.

I'm thinking I'll focus on the Brooks b17 select or Swift.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Lynne Fitz]

one of my riding partners has a Berthoud, and he is still trying to show it who 
is in charge :-)  Probably has over 1000 miles on it now.  I bought myself a 
Brooks Super Champion Flyer S many years ago, and it went from new to not bad 
to uncomfortable.  The leather gave it up too quickly.  Had the Selle Anatomica 
cut out installed, and it didn't help.  (Still in the cabinet.  Make an offer.)

After many years of Terry Butterfly and a brief foray into the Selle Italia 
Diva Gel Flow, I bought a Rivet Pearl.  Also very thick, stiff leather.  Our 
relationship is improving.  Almost 1000 miles on it so far.  Due to the way the 
Rivet is constructed,, the skirts will never splay out.  I am optimistic that 
we will get along well for the foreseeable future.  Rivet saddles have a 1 year 
(!) return policy.

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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Matthew J]

Mike Kone is a bright guy, but not sure there is a problem here.

I attached a mid size Acorn with a Bordo Granite no problem.  On shorter 
tours I used a loaded Carradice Super C with hoop. Packed that bag with 
clothes, shoes, tools and Minox binoculars (like to star gaze).  No 
problems.

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:17:13 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 I spoke with Mike and Boulder Bicycle, who said there aren't saddle sack 
 loops on the saddles except one model, and when he was concerned the 
 plastic might break on the one model when he heard it is a large SaddleSack 
 I'm using.

 I'm thinking I'll focus on the Brooks b17 select or Swift.

 With abandon,
 Patrick


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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Matthew J]

Also, the Berthoud Aspin touring model, Marie Blanc Touring model and the 
Mente city saddle have bag loops.  The sport riding model does not.  Not 
sure why Mike said only one model has loops.

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:58:48 PM UTC-5, Matthew J wrote:

 Mike Kone is a bright guy, but not sure there is a problem here.

 I attached a mid size Acorn with a Bordo Granite no problem.  On shorter 
 tours I used a loaded Carradice Super C with hoop. Packed that bag with 
 clothes, shoes, tools and Minox binoculars (like to star gaze).  No 
 problems.

 On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:17:13 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 I spoke with Mike and Boulder Bicycle, who said there aren't saddle sack 
 loops on the saddles except one model, and when he was concerned the 
 plastic might break on the one model when he heard it is a large SaddleSack 
 I'm using.

 I'm thinking I'll focus on the Brooks b17 select or Swift.

 With abandon,
 Patrick



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[RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Deacon Patrick]

I just talked with Debra at Rivet Saddles. She has what she calls a 
Netflixs for Saddles where for $25 she'll send you a saddle to try 
(whatever she has available from the exchanges/returns she gets in her 
1-year guarantee). You ride the saddle for a few months, whatever, then 
contact her to either buy a new, specific saddle, or keep the one you are 
trying at a discount off full price. I admit I am intrigued and am trying 
it out.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 11:53:35 AM UTC-6, Lynne Fitz wrote:

 one of my riding partners has a Berthoud, and he is still trying to show 
 it who is in charge :-)  Probably has over 1000 miles on it now.  I bought 
 myself a Brooks Super Champion Flyer S many years ago, and it went from new 
 to not bad to uncomfortable.  The leather gave it up too quickly.  Had the 
 Selle Anatomica cut out installed, and it didn't help.  (Still in the 
 cabinet.  Make an offer.)

 After many years of Terry Butterfly and a brief foray into the Selle 
 Italia Diva Gel Flow, I bought a Rivet Pearl.  Also very thick, stiff 
 leather.  Our relationship is improving.  Almost 1000 miles on it so far. 
  Due to the way the Rivet is constructed,, the skirts will never splay out. 
  I am optimistic that we will get along well for the foreseeable future. 
  Rivet saddles have a 1 year (!) return policy.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Dan Abelson]

I have a rivet independence and I like it a lot. It works better for me
than Brooks and Berthoud. Debra is also great to deal with. I do think the
Berthoud is probably the best constructed of the saddles but mine stayed
hard as a rock and I just couldn't get comfortable.

Dan Abelson
On Apr 2, 2014 11:38 AM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:

 I just talked with Debra at Rivet Saddles. She has what she calls a
 Netflixs for Saddles where for $25 she'll send you a saddle to try
 (whatever she has available from the exchanges/returns she gets in her
 1-year guarantee). You ride the saddle for a few months, whatever, then
 contact her to either buy a new, specific saddle, or keep the one you are
 trying at a discount off full price. I admit I am intrigued and am trying
 it out.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 11:53:35 AM UTC-6, Lynne Fitz wrote:

 one of my riding partners has a Berthoud, and he is still trying to show
 it who is in charge :-)  Probably has over 1000 miles on it now.  I bought
 myself a Brooks Super Champion Flyer S many years ago, and it went from new
 to not bad to uncomfortable.  The leather gave it up too quickly.  Had the
 Selle Anatomica cut out installed, and it didn't help.  (Still in the
 cabinet.  Make an offer.)

 After many years of Terry Butterfly and a brief foray into the Selle
 Italia Diva Gel Flow, I bought a Rivet Pearl.  Also very thick, stiff
 leather.  Our relationship is improving.  Almost 1000 miles on it so far.
  Due to the way the Rivet is constructed,, the skirts will never splay out.
  I am optimistic that we will get along well for the foreseeable future.
  Rivet saddles have a 1 year (!) return policy.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Berthoud Saddles

[Mojo]

I messaged this to just Patrick, but am sharing with all now. The Berthoud 
does break in and get much much better. Patience!

 I am a B17 guy since 1995, but have grown frustrated with inconsistencies 
and relatively short saddle life. I tried the *Berthoud 
touring*https://www.flickr.com/photos/79695460@N00/5598979996/ when 
I built up my latest (last dammit!) new bike. Flat is where its at with 
this saddle, I sugget you do not tip it up and certainly not down. Yes it 
was a good long while before the saddle broke in. For a few months it was 
painful beyond about 40 miles. A few hot sweaty rides and one century ride 
in the rain fixed all that. It is supremely comfortable now. It would be my 
choice for a long tour. I have used *two different 
saddlebags*https://www.flickr.com/photos/79695460@N00/10828931806/on the 
plastic saddlebag loops. I trust them I guess...I don't think about 
them.

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