Good point. A good custom builder should at least know what size
crank the buyer intends to use. Depending on the level of
communication before the build, the builder may know how the rider
pedals.
On Feb 5, 12:42 am, Philip Williamson
wrote:
> On Feb 4, 12:18 pm, CycloFiend wrote:> on 2/4/10
On Feb 4, 12:18 pm, CycloFiend wrote:
> on 2/4/10 8:28 AM, Rene at valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
...
> You could probably measure the BB to front axle distance, and see if there
> was a consistency in what size caused the issue. The variables would be
> wheel size, tire size, fender standoff (gap
>
> A. Homer Hilsen 72
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-
> >From: CycloFiend
> >Sent: Feb 4, 2010 3:18 PM
> >To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
>
> >on 2/4/10 8:28 AM, Ren
Well yeah. Small bike, medium to high trail, 700c wheel, probably
some tco. Play with the trail - Rivs don't do low - and you may be
able to avoid. Or as the form says, opt for smaller wheels. Not
always an option with stock bikes.
On Feb 4, 8:50 pm, Richard wrote:
> The order form for a cust
The order form for a custom Rivendell explains TCO, and asks if TCO is
or is not acceptable.
http://www.rivbike.com/assets/payloads/177/original_custom_frame_form.pdf
On Feb 3, 12:51 pm, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > On a single I'm willing to put up with some TCO, though I'm very glad
> > that Mike B
A. Homer Hilsen 72
-Original Message-
>From: CycloFiend
>Sent: Feb 4, 2010 3:18 PM
>To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
>
>on 2/4/10 8:28 AM, Rene at valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> TCO
27;s why i don't reply to any all topics here;-) if
> grant did not start the thread, who did? isn't it if your name is on top of
> the topic or the first one, it is considered that you started the topic? --
> rene
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> >
ROTFL!!
One of the reasons I do business with Jim is his sensitive nature.
On Feb 4, 2010, at 8:33 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
Tim is sensitive about his small wheels. Whenever he visits me at the
shop, I try not to stare.
On Feb 4, 8:03 am, Steve Palincsar wrote:
On Wed, 2010
On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 12:49 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> Not to offend anybody, but my personal opinion is that TCO is a sign
> of weak character and moral failing.
Weak character on the part of the frame builder and designer, right?
--
You received this message because you are
Not to offend anybody, but my personal opinion is that TCO is a sign
of weak character and moral failing.
On Feb 4, 2:44 pm, Brad Gantt wrote:
> That would be "affected" not "effected". :)
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That would be "affected" not "effected". :)
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"I've read many reports over the years of people falling from their
bikes because of TCO. It hasn't happened to me, but I wouldn't want
to
tell anyone that the thing that made them fall over was purely user
error and not an attribute of bicycle design."
This I think is the crux. TCO is an aspect
CycloFiend wrote, in part:
>I think GP's post was a new thread to comment about a previous thread.
>Nevertheless, I do want to remind folks that if they want to communicate
>with Rivendell on any subject, the best way if directly. (Or cc them on the
>email with a note explaining why.) This list is
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 12:00, Brad Gantt wrote:
> I will admit that I simply do not understand the sentiment that
> TCO is an "offense". I believe that word choice is inflammatory and
> honestly insulting to the designers and builders of these bicycles. I
> also admit that I cannot understand the
on 2/4/10 8:28 AM, Rene at valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
> Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
> sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
> Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out
Email and forum posts are a poor substitute for actual communication.
Intent, tone, etc. is often lost in translation. If I insulted
anybody, I apologize. I simply felt as though this string had
degenerated beyond the point of reason and perspective had been lost.
I make no judgement as to the impo
On Feb 3, 4:17 pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 12:54 PM, JoelMatthews wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> For some reason that isn't completely obvious, a lot of people have a
> >> reflexive distaste for smaller wheels. The 56 Atlantis was always a
> >> much harder sell than a 58 Atlantis, which
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 11:42, james black wrote:
> This is directed to Brad and Patrick: is there really a need to be so
> condescending? You don't mind TCO, fine. Please don't insult those of
> us who do.
And by the way - I joined in this discussion not because it gives me
pleasure to fight with
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:34, Brad Gantt wrote:
> This has gotten ridiculous. Grant's post ended with an expression of
> concern that he shouldn't have said anything. I imagine it might be a
> bit before he does again and I for one find that unfortunate.
> TCO is an "offense"? Honestly.
This is d
This has gotten ridiculous. Grant's post ended with an expression of
concern that he shouldn't have said anything. I imagine it might be a
bit before he does again and I for one find that unfortunate.
TCO is an "offense"? Honestly.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G
: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
>
> Actually, Grant didn't start the thread.
>
> But I think it is time for other entrail readings and that we should move
on to analyzing Grant's wardrobe or his deoderant or something. I don&#
Feb 4, 2010 12:13 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general.. Actually, Grant didn't start the thread.But I think it is time for other entrail readings and that we should move on to analyzing Grant's wardrobe or his deoderant or something. I don't
Actually, Grant didn't start the thread.
But I think it is time for other entrail readings and that we should move on
to analyzing Grant's wardrobe or his deoderant or something. I don't like
his haircut. Anyone else care to chime in?
Christ! Let's all get ourselves lives!
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at
ut no pics of the current setup...
Steve
-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
[mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com]on Behalf Of PATRICK MOORE
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:09 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in genera
TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
what size(s) among their models
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Frederick, Steve
wrote:
my 26" Bianchi Milano fixed gear conversion commuter"
May we see photos?
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>>> On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
>
I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
with 26" wheels.
I've only had a couple of comments about my 26"-wheeled XO-1. One fellow
commented on the long wheelbase, mistaking the roomy clearance
On Feb 4, 2010, at 8:03 AM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 22:28 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
with 26" wh
Tim is sensitive about his small wheels. Whenever he visits me at the
shop, I try not to stare.
On Feb 4, 8:03 am, Steve Palincsar wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 22:28 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> > > On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 22:28 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
> >> I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
> >> with 26" wheels.
> >>
> >
> > I can't imagine why th
On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Feb 3, 2010, at 12:54 PM, JoelMatthews wrote:
Did not realize people were so hostile to 26". I will soon
receive a
custom that is built around 26" wheels - at just under 6', I
gu
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 5:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
> >
>
> I can't imagine why they'd care [about 26" wheels -- ed.]. Can you even
> see that the wheels are
> unusual? I've only really ever seen one Riv All-Arounder, I think a 58
> cm, and it looks perfectly ordinary with nothing particula
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 12:54 PM, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > Did not realize people were so hostile to 26". I will soon receive a
> > custom that is built around 26" wheels - at just under 6', I guess you
> > could call my bikes either larger or av
On Feb 3, 2010, at 12:54 PM, JoelMatthews wrote:
For some reason that isn't completely obvious, a lot of people have a
reflexive distaste for smaller wheels. The 56 Atlantis was always a
much harder sell than a 58 Atlantis, which I attribute to a
widespread
prejudice against smaller wheels. O
On Feb 3, 2010, at 11:37 AM, james black wrote:
Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like
myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and
deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging
that it is a necessary evil (however signi
Anne and James:
I will readily concede that TCO not being a concern to me left less
sensitive to GP's choice of words.
On Feb 3, 1:05 pm, Anne Paulson wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews wrote:
> >> Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like
> >> myse
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews wrote:
>> Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like
>> myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and
>> deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging
>> that it is a necessary evil
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48, JoelMatthews wrote:
>> Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like
>> myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and
>> deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging
>> that it is a necessary evil (ho
> For some reason that isn't completely obvious, a lot of people have a
> reflexive distaste for smaller wheels. The 56 Atlantis was always a
> much harder sell than a 58 Atlantis, which I attribute to a widespread
> prejudice against smaller wheels. Over on the Long Haul Trucker forum,
> there are
> On a single I'm willing to put up with some TCO, though I'm very glad
> that Mike Barry designed my Mariposa without it.
You cannot compare a custom with a stock design. Unless the owner
demands some wacky wheel size/geometry, a custom builder should have a
lot more flexibility than a basic des
> Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like
> myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and
> deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging
> that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be tolerated.
Isn't that what Gr
"What we're talking about is a matter of how much value to place on
various attributes."
I agree that smaller wheels are a solution for TCO and other real and
perceived problems, and my custom touring bike is basically a copy of
my 58 Atlantis, but for 26" wheels.
For some reason that isn't comp
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:37 AM, james black wrote:
> ... I
> am mildly annoyed and feel vaguely insulted by the point of view I
> sometimes encounter that TCO is an imaginary problem, or that I'm some
> kind of dimwit because it bothers me. There are other cyclists
> (customers) l
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 22:32, Tim McNamara wrote:
> I think there are a number of us who want our cake and get to eat it too:
> sporty fast geometry with 45 mm tires, full fenders and no TCO. I'd say
> "pick two." Some enchiladas can't be readily served whole.
What we're talking about is a mat
> to jamb my shoe into my fender". Bicycles should not cause this kind
> of low-grade anxiety. It's unnecessary - if a bike has TCO, the wheels
> are too big. Design it out with smaller wheels!
As GP argues, there are many other concerns in a bike design than
TCO. Designing a bike so it will be a
On Feb 2, 2010, at 9:22 PM, james black wrote:
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 23:36, Grant Petersen
wrote:
TCO ends up being a problem---in my opinion---only in theoretics,
but not in
practice. THere are some builders who would disagree; and although
in the
spirit of diplomacy and reasonableness
Hello all,
This is kind of an interesting topic, and I think about it
sometimes . . . so I'll add some thoughts. I have 8, or so, bikes
(guess I need one more?) 6 of them don't have TCO, but my two FAVORITE
bikes do: my 63cm AHH, and my 25" Jack Taylor (which has WAY more fork
rake than the AHH.)
>
> Toe overlap is not a problem because riding and cornering at normal
> speed the front wheel never turns far enough for the toe to hit the
> front wheel. The only time it becomes an issue is when turning sharply
> at a very slow speed; doing a U-turn on a very narrow road for
> example.
This i
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 5:51 PM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 6:02 PM, cyclotourist wrote:
>
>> Yes! I already mentioned I hope it has... get this... room for 60mm tires
>> and no TCO! :-)
>>
>> .. 70 mms and fenders (TCO be damned)?
>
> Patrick "wimpy skinny 60s" Moore
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 5:36 PM, newenglandbike wrote:
> On Feb 2, 8:02 pm, cyclotourist wrote:
> > Yes! I already mentioned I hope it has... get this... room for 60mm
> tires
> > and no TCO! :-)
> >
> > But I understand if it doesn't. That's the extreme end of the design
> > spectrum, and may
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 6:02 PM, cyclotourist wrote:
> Yes! I already mentioned I hope it has... get this... room for 60mm tires
> and no TCO! :-)
>
> .. 70 mms and fenders (TCO be damned)?
Patrick "wimpy skinny 60s" Moore
--
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contac
On Feb 2, 8:02 pm, cyclotourist wrote:
> Yes! I already mentioned I hope it has... get this... room for 60mm tires
> and no TCO! :-)
>
> But I understand if it doesn't. That's the extreme end of the design
> spectrum, and may not be one of the goals. That doesn't mean it's covered
> in mucus,
Yes! I already mentioned I hope it has... get this... room for 60mm tires
and no TCO! :-)
But I understand if it doesn't. That's the extreme end of the design
spectrum, and may not be one of the goals. That doesn't mean it's covered
in mucus, either!
:-)
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Micha
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:21 PM, RonLau wrote:
> "Fixed gear and fenders (Mudguards.) is going to make this move a
> little difficult, but not impossible. With clipless pedals, you could
> unclip the outside foot and move your toe back to give more clearance.
> I sometimes get out of the saddle an
Another Frame builder talked about TCO.
http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2006/11/5/toe-overlap-no-problem.html
"
There was a discussion recently on Classic Rendezvous Bike list; the
tread titled “Toe overlap even on good bikes,” implied that toe
overlap was a design flaw and one should n
Perhaps the Hunqapillar will fit your yearing for bigger knobby tired
lugged bikes? It is touted as somwhere between the Atlantis and the
Bombadil. I haven't seen any geometry yet but to me that means at
least a 2.0" 29er tire. Perhaps Grant can fill in the missing geometry
data so those of us who
Some of the people I know who ride ultra-short-wheelbase fixed-gear
bikes w/clips have what seems like whole foot overlap, but they manage
in boston traffic nonetheless. I know from experience that riding in
this traffic must involve some serious weaving and sharp cuts of the
wheel left/right.
When pictures of my Hilsen first showed up on Cyclofiend, someone e-
mailed me a brief - 'Wow. How's that TCO doing ya?' Or something
generally in that line. Presumably the author meant to make me feel
bad for having bought the bike.
Two problems with the effort. First, with its 32 tires and SK
One of the non-Riv bikes we sell comes standard with clips and straps
(we should really take them off). Last Summer a guy came in to test
one, so I aired up the tires, offered a helmet (declined), and away he
went. When he returned, both he and the bike were scraped up.
Apparently, the TC got caugh
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