Re: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

There was nothing to suggest water hammer. Water hammer resulting from a pump start is unlikely in sprinkler system piping. Even if there is a water hammer problem, it's something you want to know because it's easy to fiz.When you do see water hammer from a fire pump, it usually happens in und

Re: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

was the system ever tested with a water hammer produced by the pump so has to ensure everything was good and tight? Water hammer is a much bigger concern than static pressure. I certainly agree with checking it several times but when do you stop pounding things week in and week out? The

Re: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

zackery The more appropriate way to word it is that it makes NO SENSE to unnecessarily expose to system to additional stress. The TC has stated that it is not necessary to test such small modifications to the system beyond the working pressure. Roland On Mar 8, 2007, at 3:35 PM, Greg Mc

RE: Valve Seals

Plastic cable-ties (with company logos or seals at the end) are becoming more acceptable today, easy to replace at minimal cost, recyclable, and a lot safer than lead to process! Jack C Kilavuz Risk Engineer E mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mail

Re: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

A real-world example: Just a couple of years ago there was a situation at an auto parts warehouse. Fully sprinklered, adequate for the commodity and storage arrangement. Water supplied by a fire pump. Because of concerns that system might leak, even though it was relatively new with no sign

RE: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

Better to find system defects now than during a fire, make a disclaimer as noted before: my work leaks - then I fix it, others work leaks pay me to fix it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:35 PM

RE: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

I agree with Garth with everything except we ALL have one huge unknownwho has worked on the system since it was new and the system was put in service? Has anyone changed a leaking head, relocated a head or etc and it was tested then? We have seen sprinklers in service that were slow dripping an

Re: Valve Seals

The vast majority (99%) of all of the sprinkler system control valves at my former company were locked open with padlocks and chains. However, there were few occasions where a control valve was sealed closed for manual operations (dust collectors). These seals were made of metal and are normally us

RE: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

The Fitter makes good sense. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Garth W. Warren Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 5:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing The owner may not care but th

Re: Valve Seals

Seton sells lead (which you may want to avoid unless you hand out MSDS for each seal) and stainless steel seals and a crimping tool. Garth a fitter - Original Message - From: "Jay Stough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "AFSA Sprinkler Forum" Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:15 PM Subject: Valv

Re-enable my membership.

Please re-enable my membership. Thank you. mario berrios [EMAIL PROTECTED] AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Sprinkler

RE: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

AMEN -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Garth W. Warren Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 3:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing The owner may not care but the firefighters that wer

Re: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

The owner may not care but the firefighters that were expecting the water at the fire area would sure be disappointed. If we are actually scared our systems are going to blow-up during pressurization, like will normally happen during firefighter response, then we are offering a false sense of secu

Re: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

BULLSEYE Roland On Mar 8, 2007, at 11:22 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That would depend on your point of view. As an owner he may not care if the cap blows off while the FD is pumping it up during a fire as mush as he would if there was no emergency and someone just wanted a test becaus

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

Thom, I'll work on that resume. lol Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -Original Message---

Re: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

Martin, With the information you've provided that the replacement was not for the entire system, or an area easily isolated, I would agree with you, and with others who've suggested that the only required test is at system pressure. As for the contract argument I would suggest that unless th

Re: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

P.S. Because the system was taken out of service to replace the heads, it must be "Re-activated" (Generally follow same guidelines as for "Activation".) Also if you want to be the "DEVIL'S" Advocate, you must first apply in person, with a fire proof resume. (If selected you'll have to supply y

RE: Standpipe at Intermediate Landing

Thanks Roland, I've never fought a fire in my life, so my experience there is gained here on the forum. Well, no experience except maybe for a few times that I started a fire accidentally as a kid when I was experimenting with matches, gasoline, and ants! Anyway, I do have a call into the AHJ, st

Re: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

In Mil Speak, that means when you initially turn the system on or "Pressurize" the piping. Thom McMahon Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 08,

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

What's the definition of "activating", sprinkler discharge such as during a fire scenario as opposed to shutting one down for service and placing it back into service? I can completely understand the de-energization of critical equipment in a sprinkler discharge scenario as triggered by the wate

RE: What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

That would depend on your point of view. As an owner he may not care if the cap blows off while the FD is pumping it up during a fire as mush as he would if there was no emergency and someone just wanted a test because they wanted to see what happens to the system. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Pro

Re: Calculating Attic Heads

7+2 not 7 total. (9 Total) Thom McMahon Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 - Original Message - From: "Reed Roisum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 10:47 AM Subject: Calculating Attic Heads

What I'm Hearing About Hydrostatic Testing

I'm concerned about the undertone of the discussions. That is, hydrostatic testing of existing systems will lead to unpredictable results (things leaking and coming apart). If this is the case, then we may have many very fragile systems out there that shouldn't be in service in the first place.

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

Well if the PO was for the replacement of heads and the labor to perform such, then anything beyond that should be handled as a change order. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491

Re: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

IF YOU ARE UNDER THE GUIDANCE OF THE UFC 3-600-01, (adopted by the Dept. of the Airforce April 2003) take heart! 6-8.1.1 Automatic sprinkler protection, Requires all power to be disconnected from and sensitive electronic equipment when activating a fire sprinkler system. (If your facility is "

Valve Seals

Does anyone use valve seals during inspections? We use seals similar to those used on fire extinguishers, but they are not the best. If you take your time, you can take them off without breaking the seal. If you use these, where do you get them? Thanks. Joseph C. Stough CET, CFPS Tilley Fire E

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

Because this building is a US Air Force building, I don't think it will go to a code appeals process, but I can always ask. We make a quote to change the heads and they issued a purchase order for the heads and labor. There is no contract language that I can rely on in this case. Their purch

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

Has anyone thought to call Tyco? Maybe they have dealt with this exact issue before - probably many times? Terri Simmons Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING voice: 858.751.2930 fax: 858.751.2933 cell: 619.871.8450 -Original Message- From: Jim Kettler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

We call these folks "inventors" and they generally give us AHJ-types a bad reputation. I struggle to get folks to comply with the minimum standards, let alone invent new requirements! I think the technical code issues have been well addressed. My only recommendation to add - avoid turning this int

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

If water comes out of the sprinkler fittings, then it's your water. If water comes out anywhere else, it's their water. Wouldn't this be a fair way to approach the testing? Bill Brooks Pittsburgh, PA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roland H

Re: Standpipe at Intermediate Landing

well let the boys that put the wet stuff on the hot stuff address it but I suspect they pull hose from outside for the ground floor. I would think the intermediate connection at the first landing is for the second floor. Maybe Steve will comment on if the TC has talked about the first floor

RE: Standpipe at Intermediate Landing

If you haven' t already, I would suggest a call to your local AHJ. Typically firefighting operations would have crews connect at the floor below; preferably at the intermediate landing below so not to bungle up access at the floor below. Depending upon the height of the intermediate landings, the l

Re: Standpipe at Intermediate Landing

The couple of intermediate-landing standpipes I've installed, I put a FDV on the lowest floor landing as well. Is this a manual standpipe? Tom Go Red Sox! Roland, I can understand that, but at the first intermediate set of landings they will need to go down to reach the first level. Bob Knigh

Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

I agree with George! How many customers do you have that don't want to spend the money to proactively repair a system, but call you immediately if there is a leak, and tell you it is your fault. Unfortunately, even if the customer likes you and tells you it's not your fault, their insurance comp

RE: Standpipe at Intermediate Landing

Roland, I can understand that, but at the first intermediate set of landings they will need to go down to reach the first level. Bob Knight -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 11:26 AM To: sprinkle

Re: Standpipe at Intermediate Landing

My understanding is that they thread UP the stairs. Being below the fire is so much better than being above it. Roland On Mar 8, 2007, at 10:04 AM, Bob Knight wrote: I have a parking garage with a dry manual standpipe. The south tower is cut and dry with the standpipe hose valves at each

Re: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

That is true and thank goodness there are no vindictive consequences when pointing that out. Best to give the dog a bone if it will shut them up but if the dog wants your whole leg, THEN fight about it. Roland On Mar 8, 2007, at 7:28 AM, Chris Cahill wrote: They cannot ask for whatever

Re: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

In order to omit from the calculations such small rooms (with light fuel loads as already discussed but poorly defined), you must have a remote area with a minimum size from Figure 11.2.3.1.1 (ie 1500 sf for LH & OH) plus any increases. IT identifies 30% for dry pipe but ceiling slope wo

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

What does your contract specifically define as the scope of your work? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg

Standpipe at Intermediate Landing

I have a parking garage with a dry manual standpipe. The south tower is cut and dry with the standpipe hose valves at each intermediate landing. The north tower, on the other hand, is confusing me. Rather than a single intermediate landing, there are two intermediate landings. I am planning on

Fwd: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

Hi Group, A little more information about the building. It is on an Air Force site and the Fire Chief, who is the AHJ, is requiring the hydrostatic test after the Omega heads were replaced. The fire sprinkler head replacement did not emcompass the entire building because there are mixed hea

Calculating Attic Heads

I am reviewing a dry system attic layout using Tyco's Single Directional (SD) and Back to Back (BB) attic heads. The attic narrows at the remote area so that the peak goes from an attic peak (12/4 slope)with roof on each side, to a roof only on one side of the peak. (sorry for the poor description

RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

Thank you my thoughts exactly concerning the rooms. I welcome any more comments, but extend thanks to all. Kathryn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jarrod Poorman Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Re: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

Viking just released one for up to 14'x14' and rated for QR in OH applications. Jarrod Poorman Sr. Fire Protection Design Technician Global Fire Engineering www.global-fire.com Office (941)-758-2551 Fax (941)-739-6383 Chad Burnett wrote: Does anyone know if there is an Extended Coverage Head

RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

Does anyone know if there is an Extended Coverage Head that has a QR rating in and OH applications? Chad Burnett Fire Safe Systems From: "Travis Mack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org To: Subject: RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 09:41:58 -0

Re: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

If you omit the sprinkler heads allowed in 14.4.4.4.2, you cannot use the design area reduction. You have to calc to 1500 sqft even if QR heads are used. If you have the handbook, it goes into further explanation. In addition, 14.4.4.4.2 applies to small the rooms with small fuel loads. O

RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

Kathryn: The EC-11 are not QR in OH applications. They are SR. Therefore, the QR reduction does not apply. As far as: "Ok I need to add one more question to the omission of these three rooms per 14.4.4.4.2 2002 edition, it states 'closets, washrooms, & similar small compartments requiring onl

RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

Of course whichever is greater the 900 sq ft or 5 heads... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kathryn Tyler Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area EXCELLENT!!! Bri

RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

EXCELLENT!!! Brian - it sure would qualify, Thank you very much I did not even consider that, it will allow ext. cov to be reduced also. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:32 AM To: sprinklerforum

RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

Ok I need to add one more question to the omission of these three rooms per 14.4.4.4.2 2002 edition, it states 'closets, washrooms, & similar small compartments requiring only one head' --- The rooms are a toilet, break room and an office - I am willing to allow the omission of using the toilet but

RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

Just to be safe on the 1500 sq.ft., is area reduction applicable? Regards, Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection Design Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 704.948.3506 phone 704.948.3507 fax -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED

RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

Anyone else with different or the same thoughts as Steve? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kathryn Tyler Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:27 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area The 5 sprinklers

RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

The 5 sprinklers are not the greater, so the 1500 sq. ft. is having to be used. So include those rooms, I thought that would be true, they are not demising walls. Thank u -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, March

RE: Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

I'm pretty sure the language (and intent) of NFPA 13 and manufacturer's listings of these types of sprinklers is that you calculate 5 sprinklers minimum, or the area/density method whichever is greater. So if you have standard sprinklers in compartments that are not fire or area-separated from

Extended Cov. Hds Calc Area

Good Morning Forum, I am currently reviewing a project which is utilizing the Tyco EC-11 extended coverage pendent heads. I have rarely used them and could use your great input. My question is: The calculation area is a kitchen and in the center of the kitchen are three rooms, toilet,offices (

Re: definition - FD access - part 2

There is nothing on the drawings that would be construed as a roof deck. There could be some walkways to service RTUs and the elevator rood, but that is about it. At 09:12 AM 3/8/2007, you wrote: Certainly, if the roof has no "roof decks" designed for occupancy then the roof is not considered

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

Hey Ken, I see your point, but unless you have a control valve at each "new portion" (each of the 200 spkr)of the sprinkler system, I would say it can't be isolated. Hydrostatically test the reducer and the head??? The handbook provides the following commentary text... "The TC of Spkr System Ins

Re: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

Ken, If the 200 sprinklers represented the entire system, or an area which could be isolated from the rest of the system/building, wouldn't 16.2.1.5 support the requirement the AHJ has made? PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! The AHJ (Fire Marshal)is a law enforcement officer just like a police officer. States will vary a bit as to the form of legalities but if you have the written law on your side you are covered. Now you might have to exercise your rights in either the appeals system or the cour

RE: definition - FD access - part 2

All of these are defined terms in the code(s) ... roof, basement, etc. Try this for a roof - can the space be sold or leased? If so, it's a floor. Steve L. -Original Message- From: R Richardson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesp

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

Make sure you get a release of liability for any and all damage that may result from any system failure. The liability when testing older systems can be huge as you have no idea of what has been done to it over the years or the quality of the original installation. I had been through this and a c

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

I'd be happy to include some monies for the replacement of failed pipe and fittings- IF the Owner will accept liability for property damage and BI and consequential damages. Heck $5 and 15 minutes to replace a 4" grooved Coupling ain't much compared to the damage that 700 GPM coming out of it can d

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

It may not be a matter of arguing with the AHJ as they can ask for the test if they wish. You need to meet with them (include the building owner) to discuss and show him the minimum NFPA requirements. If the AHJ is still adamant about the hydro test, then you need to prepare a proposal to the b

Re: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

> > We argue that replacement of the heads do not require this 20 year old system to be hydro >tested. We point out that the system was not modified and to subject an old system to these >pressures could cause a failure of its piping. If subjecting a 20 year old system to a 200 pound hydro test

Re: definition - FD access - part 2

Certainly, if the roof has no "roof decks" designed for occupancy then the roof is not considered an occupied floor. If there are roof decks good chance the answer is yes. We have a local ammendment allowing small roof decks (less than 50 ocupants) to be provided without considering it an occupie

Tyco 2" Res shut off valves....

Once again, I know this was posted a few weeks ago, but does anyone have 8 extra 2" domestic shut off valves? Our supplier had promised us the remaining 8 we have outstanding on projects but alas, the 8 that were in stock have mysteriously disappeared Please contact me off forum if you can be

RE: Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

>Is there any formal opinions from NFPA that offers guidance on this issue? Martin, Read NFPA 13 '02 edition Section 16.2.1.6. The system would not have to be tested in excess of normal system pressure. You may also want to check the forum archives. Someone posed this question not long ago c

Hydrostatic testing recalled sprinkler heads

Hello list, We have just finished replaced Omega heads in a buildiing (200 of them) and the AHJ wants the sprinkler system hydrostatic tested. We argue that replacement of the heads do not require this 20 year old system to be hydro tested. We point out that the system was not modified and t

RE: audible alarms

Thanks for the input. I can not find the reference in 101 that requires a water flow detector on each floor for a non high rise building. Thanks, Greg Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -Original Message- From: [EMAI

RE: audible alarms

Here are a couple of replies from the alarm side: Under the Florida fire prevention which also references 101, it would require only a flow switch per floor . It would not require A/V devices in the tenant spaces , only a flow bell and probably remote station monitoring with a pull station and smo

definition - FD access - part 2

This may be more picking of nits, but I'm trying to anticipate all the things that could be thrown at me. The definition uses the phrase "occupied floors". If a stair tower extends to provide roof access, does the top landing, which opens out onto the roof constitute an "occupied floor"? The

Re: Combustible Salsa

If you are looking at future occupancy, then what do you design to? What if they put plastic party trays in the racks? It's a tough call. The owner has to take responsibility (shudder) for providing accurate information on the building occupancy. If it changes, then it's the owners responsibili