RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

[BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum]

Further proof that you can obtain a license to practice architecture without 
understanding what listing a product means. Wishfulness does not overcome 
proven knowledge.

Best.


> On 08/25/2020 10:40 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
>  
> I wouldn't install a non-conforming component no matter who said they'd take 
> liability.  For me to install it knowing it's not right still can still 
> result in some level of liability no matter how much I might protest.  Unless 
> the manufacturer responsible for the listing of the product issues a 
> directive stating that it can be installed in this alternative manner and 
> provides the specific installation guidelines, then and only then would I 
> install it.
> 
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
> Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:29 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: John Denhardt 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers
> 
> Agree 100%.  Follow the Listing - period.
> 
> If an architect or an engineer wants to violate the Listing, let them provide 
> direction and assume all liability.
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> 
> John August Denhardt, PE
> *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*
> 
> *American Fire Sprinkler Association*
> m: p: 301-343-1457
> 214-349-5965 ext 121
> w: firesprinkler.org
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm21I5yed8w$
>  > 
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>  > 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm23HmfHPkg$
>  >
>
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>  >
> 
> *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.*
> 
> *AFSA Summer Sale!*
> 
> For a limited time only, AFSA is offering members up to 50% off its on-demand 
> recorded webinars! Featuring the most sought-after thought leaders, AFSA 
> On-Demand offers a superior learning experience with ability to earn CEU and 
> CPD credits anytime, anywhere. Visit 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.firesprinkler.org/ondemand__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm22r8lfM0g$
>   to learn more.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:26 AM Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum < 
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> 
> > Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.
> > My guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present.
> > The building code requires the windows to be protected with listed 
> > sprinklers.
> > Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal
> > million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code and
> > NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the
> > liability as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend
> > the money to put in the proper glass.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*
> >
> > [image: Burtell Fire_Small]
> >
> > Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*
> >
> > 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101
> >
> > Email: j...@burtellfire.com
> >
> > Web Site:
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7lt
> > Teg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm23_OhSm2w
> > $
> >
> > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of
> > low price is forgotten.**”*
> >
> > *NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
> > intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This
> > e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail
> > transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain
> > confidential information that is legally privileged.  If you are not
> > the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or
> > agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are
> &g

Re: Window Sprinklers

[AKS-Gmail-IMAP via Sprinklerforum]

If you are referring to Tyco WS sprinklers, then you do see that it is not 
listed when there is a horizontal mullion but you also see in its installation 
details that there is no maximum distance indicated for the “ceiling” to the 
sprinkler. Yup, go look at. One other aspect to this is that there are 
application instances where the building code requires sprinklers at the glass 
in lieu of a wall fire resistance rating, but not necessarily using Tyco WS 
sprinklers. Such is the case for glazing in atriums where the wall need only be 
1-hour rated. A standard QR pendent would meet the building code requirement. 
If that was the situation then the lower sprinkler would need a multilevel 
shield to comply with an NFPA 13 installation. Right?
So it may be possible to set this up as requested by the Architect but it would 
look like hell if standard black pipe and standard fittings were used. There 
would be a couple of ways to pipe this. I think each way would look ridiculous. 
Every sprinkler person in town would be snap-chatting pictures of it.
Arguments about sprinklers not activating mean nothing. They are akin to saying 
there is nothing to burn. We just jump through the hoops given to us and keep 
moving. The Architect has his or her tit in a wringer. You just need to 
convince them to come up with an appropriate architectural solution that makes 
them look like they know what they are doing. The glazing as they have it now 
has to be architecturally rationalized in their mind to be the wrong thing. 
Somehow seed that thought and get it to grow.  

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have an architect that wants to put additional window sprinklers below a
> horizontal mullion. I am absolutely against this idea as it's not listed or
> approved for this. Has anyone run into this situation?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*
> 
> [image: Burtell Fire_Small]
> 
> Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*
> 
> 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101
> 
> Email: j...@burtellfire.com
> 
> Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com
> 
> *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
> price is forgotten.**”*
> 
> *NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
> intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail
> transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or
> other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

[Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum]

I agree. Yes, the assemblies are required to be rated.

Best regards,

*Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*

[image: Burtell Fire_Small]

Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*

116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101

Email: j...@burtellfire.com

Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com

*“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
price is forgotten.**”*

*NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail
transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or
other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that
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e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it
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prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or
saving it in any manner.  Thank you.


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:36 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> The horizontal mullions create a horizontal barrier to the water run-down
> of the window sprinklers.  So the architect is probably figuring that if
> they have window sprinklers located up high near the top of the frame and
> those wet the glass down to the mullion and then they have another row of
> window sprinklers covering the area between the mullion down to the bottom
> of the frame, they've got it all covered.  It sounds logical to those not
> familiar with how these things work.
>
> But it won't work and doesn't meet the listing of the sprinklers.
>
> Sorry  but the architect either has to change the glazing and get rid of
> the mullion or get rid of the glazing altogether.  There is not a sprinkler
> fix for this.
>
> Is this glazing part of a fire rated assembly?
>
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 |
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:26 AM
> To: å... .... 
> Cc: Joe Burtell ;
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers
>
> Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.  My
> guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The
> building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers.
> Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal
> million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code and NFPA
> required to be listed for such use. The last part is the liability as a
> small contractor. The architect does not want to spend the money to put in
> the proper glass.
>
> Best regards,
>
> *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*
>
> [image: Burtell Fire_Small]
>
> Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*
>
> 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101
>
> Email: j...@burtellfire.com
>
> Web Site:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!QBoeZobDW-FXntlm2JDcpNp9-92LO1mrBBpJIm9eSul_7MB-0h4743FfdmDw4yrlHA$
>
> *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
> price is forgotten.**”*
>
> *NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
> intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail
> transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or
> other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that
> is legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this
> e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it
> to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
> dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or
> any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly
> prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
> immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
> original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or
> saving it in any manner.  Thank you.
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å...   wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Your situation is not fu

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

[Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum]

I wouldn't install a non-conforming component no matter who said they'd take 
liability.  For me to install it knowing it's not right still can still result 
in some level of liability no matter how much I might protest.  Unless the 
manufacturer responsible for the listing of the product issues a directive 
stating that it can be installed in this alternative manner and provides the 
specific installation guidelines, then and only then would I install it.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

Agree 100%.  Follow the Listing - period.

If an architect or an engineer wants to violate the Listing, let them provide 
direction and assume all liability.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm21I5yed8w$
 > 
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 > 
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm23HmfHPkg$
 >
   
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 >

*Our members are at the heart of everything we do.*

*AFSA Summer Sale!*

For a limited time only, AFSA is offering members up to 50% off its on-demand 
recorded webinars! Featuring the most sought-after thought leaders, AFSA 
On-Demand offers a superior learning experience with ability to earn CEU and 
CPD credits anytime, anywhere. Visit 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.firesprinkler.org/ondemand__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm22r8lfM0g$
  to learn more.


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:26 AM Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum < 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.
> My guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present.
> The building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers.
> Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal
> million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code and
> NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the
> liability as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend
> the money to put in the proper glass.
>
> Best regards,
>
> *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*
>
> [image: Burtell Fire_Small]
>
> Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*
>
> 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101
>
> Email: j...@burtellfire.com
>
> Web Site:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7lt
> Teg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm23_OhSm2w
> $
>
> *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of
> low price is forgotten.**”*
>
> *NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
> intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This
> e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail
> transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain
> confidential information that is legally privileged.  If you are not
> the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or
> agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are
> hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution,
> copying or other use of this transmission or any of the information
> contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited.  If
> you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
> immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
> original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or 
> saving it in any manner.  Thank you.
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å...   wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Your situation is not fully described for me to make a
> > higher-quality response.
> > I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2).
> &

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

[Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum]

The horizontal mullions create a horizontal barrier to the water run-down of 
the window sprinklers.  So the architect is probably figuring that if they have 
window sprinklers located up high near the top of the frame and those wet the 
glass down to the mullion and then they have another row of window sprinklers 
covering the area between the mullion down to the bottom of the frame, they've 
got it all covered.  It sounds logical to those not familiar with how these 
things work.

But it won't work and doesn't meet the listing of the sprinklers.

Sorry  but the architect either has to change the glazing and get rid of the 
mullion or get rid of the glazing altogether.  There is not a sprinkler fix for 
this.

Is this glazing part of a fire rated assembly?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:26 AM
To: å...  
Cc: Joe Burtell ; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.  My guess 
is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The building code 
requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers.
Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal million, 
it is now void of it's listing which the building code and NFPA required to be 
listed for such use. The last part is the liability as a small contractor. The 
architect does not want to spend the money to put in the proper glass.

Best regards,

*Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*

[image: Burtell Fire_Small]

Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*

116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101

Email: j...@burtellfire.com

Web Site: 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!QBoeZobDW-FXntlm2JDcpNp9-92LO1mrBBpJIm9eSul_7MB-0h4743FfdmDw4yrlHA$

*“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low 
price is forgotten.**”*

*NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended 
only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail 
transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or other 
information attached to it, may contain confidential information that is 
legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail 
transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the 
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, 
distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or any of the 
information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited.  If 
you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify 
us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail transmission 
as well as its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner.  Thank 
you.


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å...   wrote:

>
>
> Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality
> response.
> I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2).
> inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the
> downfalling water to
>   in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane,
> leaving lower sections starkly unwetted.
>  in the case of the second, water boucing off the pane and leaving the
> primary window pane underprotected and sections below the horizontal
> mullion direly so.
>
> Having said that...  the words of Peter Drucker come to mind   "nothing is
> so useless as to do something that is not needed."
> Depending upon where the windows are located:
>   A.   is the chance of a fire higher than required to demand the window
> sprinklers in the first place?
> This is not a trivial question.  It is for this very reason we
> do not install sprinkles in some bathrooms and some closets...
> The answer requires good judgment, which is mannah from
> heaven, job justification and exercise of the brain from the mundane
> black-&-white Code regurgitation.
>   B.  Are there window sprinklers on both sides of the window barrier,
> which could rationalize not installing window sprinklers when combined
> with reasoning in A.
>
> Consideration from different angles:
>   Forest-for-the trees... as well as
>   the devil-is-in-the-details...
>
> Good luck, and thanks for sharing your situation Joe!
> Scot Deal
> Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering
> gms:  + 420 606 872 129
>
>
>
>
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Re: Window Sprinklers

[John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum]

Agree 100%.  Follow the Listing - period.

If an architect or an engineer wants to violate the Listing, let them
provide direction and assume all liability.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org



   

*Our members are at the heart of everything we do.*

*AFSA Summer Sale!*

For a limited time only, AFSA is offering members up to 50% off its
on-demand recorded webinars! Featuring the most sought-after thought
leaders, AFSA On-Demand offers a superior learning experience with ability
to earn CEU and CPD credits anytime, anywhere. Visit
http://www.firesprinkler.org/ondemand to learn more.


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:26 AM Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.  My
> guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The
> building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers.
> Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the
> horizontal million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code
> and NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the liability
> as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend the money to
> put in the proper glass.
>
> Best regards,
>
> *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*
>
> [image: Burtell Fire_Small]
>
> Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*
>
> 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101
>
> Email: j...@burtellfire.com
>
> Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com
>
> *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
> price is forgotten.**”*
>
> *NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
> intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail
> transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or
> other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that
> is legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this
> e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it
> to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
> dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or
> any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly
> prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
> immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
> original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or
> saving it in any manner.  Thank you.
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å...   wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality
> > response.
> > I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2).
> > inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the
> > downfalling water to
> >   in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane, leaving
> > lower sections starkly unwetted.
> >  in the case of the second, water boucing off the pane and leaving the
> > primary window pane underprotected and sections below the horizontal
> > mullion direly so.
> >
> > Having said that...  the words of Peter Drucker come to mind   "nothing
> is
> > so useless as to do something that is not needed."
> > Depending upon where the windows are located:
> >   A.   is the chance of a fire higher than required to demand the window
> > sprinklers in the first place?
> > This is not a trivial question.  It is for this very reason we do
> > not install sprinkles in some bathrooms and some closets...
> > The answer requires good judgment, which is mannah from heaven,
> > job justification and exercise of the brain from the mundane
> black-&-white
> > Code regurgitation.
> >   B.  Are there window sprinklers on both sides of the window barrier,
> > which could rationalize not installing window sprinklers when combined
> with
> > reasoning in A.
> >
> > Consideration from different angles:
> >   Forest-for-the trees... as well as
> >   the devil-is-in-the-details...
> >
> > Good luck, and thanks for sharing your situation Joe!
> > Scot Deal
> > Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering
> > gms:  + 420 606 872 129
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
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Re: Window Sprinklers

[Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum]

Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.  My
guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The
building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers.
Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the
horizontal million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code
and NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the liability
as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend the money to
put in the proper glass.

Best regards,

*Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*

[image: Burtell Fire_Small]

Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*

116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101

Email: j...@burtellfire.com

Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com

*“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
price is forgotten.**”*

*NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail
transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or
other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that
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dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or
any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly
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saving it in any manner.  Thank you.


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å...   wrote:

>
>
> Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality
> response.
> I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2).
> inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the
> downfalling water to
>   in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane, leaving
> lower sections starkly unwetted.
>  in the case of the second, water boucing off the pane and leaving the
> primary window pane underprotected and sections below the horizontal
> mullion direly so.
>
> Having said that...  the words of Peter Drucker come to mind   "nothing is
> so useless as to do something that is not needed."
> Depending upon where the windows are located:
>   A.   is the chance of a fire higher than required to demand the window
> sprinklers in the first place?
> This is not a trivial question.  It is for this very reason we do
> not install sprinkles in some bathrooms and some closets...
> The answer requires good judgment, which is mannah from heaven,
> job justification and exercise of the brain from the mundane black-&-white
> Code regurgitation.
>   B.  Are there window sprinklers on both sides of the window barrier,
> which could rationalize not installing window sprinklers when combined with
> reasoning in A.
>
> Consideration from different angles:
>   Forest-for-the trees... as well as
>   the devil-is-in-the-details...
>
> Good luck, and thanks for sharing your situation Joe!
> Scot Deal
> Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering
> gms:  + 420 606 872 129
>
>
>
>
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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum]

I would ask - what would the lower sprinklers do?  It seems like higher level 
sprinklers would go off first and then prevent the lower ones from operating. 
As you mentioned, they are not listed for that application.

I have had the discussion before: If you want a fire rating, and a window, you 
have to make some compromises.

Matt 

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 8:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Joe Burtell 
Subject: Window Sprinklers

I have an architect that wants to put additional window sprinklers below a 
horizontal mullion. I am absolutely against this idea as it's not listed or 
approved for this. Has anyone run into this situation?

Best regards,

*Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*

[image: Burtell Fire_Small]

Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*

116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101

Email: j...@burtellfire.com

Web Site: 
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.burtellfire.com=E,1,vvE4-kU04XJEa_TSCBo0ppTnt4kM3l2UkAFdXCRt9jYvyMUd7t3lfyicebE_9UnUpPK7VlmMuNbbBd1sgVs1sh_SdFltZGgbg7aSBk0CH54,=1

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price is forgotten.**”*

*NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended 
only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail 
transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or other 
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legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail 
transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the 
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information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited.  If 
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RE: Window sprinklers

[A.P.Silva]

Thanks for sharing this information.

My question is this: Tyco data sheets state locate window sprinklers within
each mullioned segment. Whereas it is not required for butt-jointed window
assemblies, provided the sprinkler spacing is maximum 8 feet. So clearly
they consider the mullion to be an obstruction. However, vertical sidewalls
can be installed upto 12 inches from the glazing. And sometimes the mullion
is not very deep. In my case it is about 3 wide and 1 deep (depth measured
perpendicular to the glass. Really, I don't know even if the two glass
panels are butt-jointed, but the seam is covered for aesthetics. I'm still
checking this out. In any case, I think a vertical sidewall 12 away centred
at the mullion/frame should be adequate. What do you think?

What bugs me is that Tyco data sheets don't take the depth of the mullions
to any consideration.

Tony  

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fairchild,
Jack
Sent: February 22, 2013 7:01 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

The ICC pulled the evaluation report based on the code change, but it should
be noted the onerous was always (and still is) on the building official to
accept the alternative method regardless of the evaluation report.  See here
for a more detailed explanation of what occurred:
http://www.icc-es.org/Criteria_Development/1210-pre/3_AC385.pdf

Jack Fairchild


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
AKS-Gmail-IMAP
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Window sprinklers

From what I understand Tyco was not invited to the hearings for the proposed
changes and the rug was pulled out from under them in regard to the Tyco WS
sprinkler for 1hr and 2hr equivalency. This is a big deal that has yet to
hit the fan so to speak now that atrium like spaces seem to be latest
architectural rage. 

I do believe vertical mullions are obstructions in the Tyco WS installation
requirements. The idea to center the WS on a vertical mullion is also nixed
in their installation requirement. Sprinklers at atrium glass is still a
permitted exception in IBC 404.6 and the wording, The sprinkler system
shall be designed so that the entire surface of the glass is wet upon
activation of the sprinkler system without obstruction , does not leave any
room for a challenge to a creative idea that gets water to bend around a
mullion. You'll have two sprinklers per side at that window pair and you'll
have a sprinkler baffle between them because they will be less than 6 feet
apart. Good luck convincing the architect the real ramifications of what
that will look like if they do not have a construction detail aptitude.

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO


On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:02 PM, bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote:

 I beg the Forum's pardon. I should know better than to post from home
(snow day in Kansas. I have a good memory, it's just short). I think
vertical mullions not being an obstruction makes sense though, otherwise the
listing would not distiguish?
 
 Quoting Justin Reid justinreid00...@gmail.com:
 
 IBC 2012, 703.4
 
 Justin Reid
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com
wrote:
 
 Not to be picky but IBC 2013?  Don't ya mean '12?  What section are you
referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed?  I can think of two
areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and substitute for 1 hour
construction.  Did they change?
 
 Chris Cahill, PE*
 Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation  Facilities Group Burns  
 McDonnell
 8201 Norman Center Drive
 Bloomington, MN 55437
 Phone:  952.656.3652
 Fax:  952.229.2923
 ccah...@burnsmcd.com
 www.burnsmcd.com
 
 Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For 
 *Registered in: MN
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
 Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Window sprinklers
 
 I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to
wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire
Rated is no longer approved.
 
 Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com:
 
 Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely 
 if you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window.
 
 Rod at Rapid
 
 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 A.P.Silva
 Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Window sprinklers
 
 I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion.
 Do I need two

RE: Window sprinklers

[bcasterline]

Well.. each mullioned section would mean vertical, since horizontal  
are not allowed. This means the water has to run accross the glass,  
not just down. I saw the width of it running down, regardless of  
vertical mullions as the max horizontal spacing. I think a case for be  
made for not needing a baffle; the 6' min. is for generic sprinklers,  
not Special Sprinklers. If the spray went 90 degrees 3' sideways each  
way, it seems the above would apply. Besides, a cold soldered head can  
always un-solder if need be! That's part of what makes it special :)


Quoting A.P.Silva silva...@shaw.ca:


Thanks for sharing this information.

My question is this: Tyco data sheets state locate window sprinklers within
each mullioned segment. Whereas it is not required for butt-jointed window
assemblies, provided the sprinkler spacing is maximum 8 feet. So clearly
they consider the mullion to be an obstruction. However, vertical sidewalls
can be installed upto 12 inches from the glazing. And sometimes the mullion
is not very deep. In my case it is about 3 wide and 1 deep (depth measured
perpendicular to the glass. Really, I don't know even if the two glass
panels are butt-jointed, but the seam is covered for aesthetics. I'm still
checking this out. In any case, I think a vertical sidewall 12 away centred
at the mullion/frame should be adequate. What do you think?

What bugs me is that Tyco data sheets don't take the depth of the mullions
to any consideration.

Tony

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fairchild,
Jack
Sent: February 22, 2013 7:01 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

The ICC pulled the evaluation report based on the code change, but it should
be noted the onerous was always (and still is) on the building official to
accept the alternative method regardless of the evaluation report.  See here
for a more detailed explanation of what occurred:
http://www.icc-es.org/Criteria_Development/1210-pre/3_AC385.pdf

Jack Fairchild


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
AKS-Gmail-IMAP
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Window sprinklers

From what I understand Tyco was not invited to the hearings for the proposed
changes and the rug was pulled out from under them in regard to the Tyco WS
sprinkler for 1hr and 2hr equivalency. This is a big deal that has yet to
hit the fan so to speak now that atrium like spaces seem to be latest
architectural rage.

I do believe vertical mullions are obstructions in the Tyco WS installation
requirements. The idea to center the WS on a vertical mullion is also nixed
in their installation requirement. Sprinklers at atrium glass is still a
permitted exception in IBC 404.6 and the wording, The sprinkler system
shall be designed so that the entire surface of the glass is wet upon
activation of the sprinkler system without obstruction , does not leave any
room for a challenge to a creative idea that gets water to bend around a
mullion. You'll have two sprinklers per side at that window pair and you'll
have a sprinkler baffle between them because they will be less than 6 feet
apart. Good luck convincing the architect the real ramifications of what
that will look like if they do not have a construction detail aptitude.

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO


On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:02 PM, bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote:


I beg the Forum's pardon. I should know better than to post from home

(snow day in Kansas. I have a good memory, it's just short). I think
vertical mullions not being an obstruction makes sense though, otherwise the
listing would not distiguish?


Quoting Justin Reid justinreid00...@gmail.com:


IBC 2012, 703.4

Justin Reid

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com

wrote:



Not to be picky but IBC 2013?  Don't ya mean '12?  What section are you

referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed?  I can think of two
areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and substitute for 1 hour
construction.  Did they change?


Chris Cahill, PE*
Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation  Facilities Group Burns 
McDonnell
8201 Norman Center Drive
Bloomington, MN 55437
Phone:  952.656.3652
Fax:  952.229.2923
ccah...@burnsmcd.com
www.burnsmcd.com

Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
*Registered in: MN




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to

wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire
Rated

RE: Window sprinklers

[Rod DiBona]

Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if you 
present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window.

Rod at Rapid

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. Do I need 
two window sprinklers?

Tony 

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RE: Window sprinklers

[bcasterline]

I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to  
wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for  
Fire Rated is no longer approved.


Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com:

Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely  
if you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window.


Rod at Rapid

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org  
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of  
A.P.Silva

Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical  
mullion. Do I need two window sprinklers?


Tony

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RE: Window sprinklers

[Cahill, Christopher]

Not to be picky but IBC 2013?  Don't ya mean '12?  What section are you 
referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed?  I can think of two 
areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and substitute for 1 hour 
construction.  Did they change? 

Chris Cahill, PE*
Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation  Facilities Group
Burns  McDonnell
8201 Norman Center Drive
Bloomington, MN 55437
Phone:  952.656.3652
Fax:  952.229.2923
ccah...@burnsmcd.com
www.burnsmcd.com

Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
*Registered in: MN




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to wetting the 
glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire Rated is no longer 
approved.

Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com:

 Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if 
 you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window.

 Rod at Rapid

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 A.P.Silva
 Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Window sprinklers

 I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. 
 Do I need two window sprinklers?

 Tony

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Re: Window sprinklers

[Justin Reid]

IBC 2012, 703.4

Justin Reid

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com wrote:

 Not to be picky but IBC 2013?  Don't ya mean '12?  What section are you 
 referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed?  I can think of two 
 areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and substitute for 1 hour 
 construction.  Did they change? 
 
 Chris Cahill, PE*
 Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation  Facilities Group
 Burns  McDonnell
 8201 Norman Center Drive
 Bloomington, MN 55437
 Phone:  952.656.3652
 Fax:  952.229.2923
 ccah...@burnsmcd.com
 www.burnsmcd.com
 
 Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
 *Registered in: MN
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
 Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Window sprinklers
 
 I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to wetting the 
 glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire Rated is no 
 longer approved.
 
 Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com:
 
 Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if 
 you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window.
 
 Rod at Rapid
 
 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 A.P.Silva
 Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Window sprinklers
 
 I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. 
 Do I need two window sprinklers?
 
 Tony
 
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 Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
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Re: Window sprinklers

[bcasterline]

I beg the Forum's pardon. I should know better than to post from home  
(snow day in Kansas. I have a good memory, it's just short). I think  
vertical mullions not being an obstruction makes sense though,  
otherwise the listing would not distiguish?


Quoting Justin Reid justinreid00...@gmail.com:


IBC 2012, 703.4

Justin Reid

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Cahill, Christopher  
ccah...@burnsmcd.com wrote:


Not to be picky but IBC 2013?  Don't ya mean '12?  What section are  
you referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed?  I can  
think of two areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and  
substitute for 1 hour construction.  Did they change?


Chris Cahill, PE*
Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation  Facilities Group
Burns  McDonnell
8201 Norman Center Drive
Bloomington, MN 55437
Phone:  952.656.3652
Fax:  952.229.2923
ccah...@burnsmcd.com
www.burnsmcd.com

Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
*Registered in: MN




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org  
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of  
bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com

Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to  
wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for  
Fire Rated is no longer approved.


Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com:


Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if
you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window.

Rod at Rapid

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
A.P.Silva
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion.
Do I need two window sprinklers?

Tony

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RE: Window sprinklers

[Russell Carol Gregory]

I presume you mean a window with two panes separated by a vertical mullion.
By most Codes/Rules: If the sprinkler/drencher is located centred on the
mullion then one is OK. If mullion is less then 40mm proud of surface it can
be ignored. Otherwise each pane of a window must be sprayed individually.



Russell Gregory
Ph  03 338 4853
e-mail rcgreg...@snap.net.nz
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva
Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013 7:07 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. Do I
need two window sprinklers?

Tony 

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Re: Window sprinklers

[AKS-Gmail-IMAP]

From what I understand Tyco was not invited to the hearings for the proposed 
changes and the rug was pulled out from under them in regard to the Tyco WS 
sprinkler for 1hr and 2hr equivalency. This is a big deal that has yet to hit 
the fan so to speak now that atrium like spaces seem to be latest 
architectural rage. 

I do believe vertical mullions are obstructions in the Tyco WS installation 
requirements. The idea to center the WS on a vertical mullion is also nixed in 
their installation requirement. Sprinklers at atrium glass is still a permitted 
exception in IBC 404.6 and the wording, The sprinkler system shall be designed 
so that the entire surface of the glass is wet upon activation of the sprinkler 
system without obstruction , does not leave any room for a challenge to a 
creative idea that gets water to bend around a mullion. You'll have two 
sprinklers per side at that window pair and you'll have a sprinkler baffle 
between them because they will be less than 6 feet apart. Good luck convincing 
the architect the real ramifications of what that will look like if they do not 
have a construction detail aptitude.

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO


On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:02 PM, bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote:

 I beg the Forum's pardon. I should know better than to post from home (snow 
 day in Kansas. I have a good memory, it's just short). I think vertical 
 mullions not being an obstruction makes sense though, otherwise the listing 
 would not distiguish?
 
 Quoting Justin Reid justinreid00...@gmail.com:
 
 IBC 2012, 703.4
 
 Justin Reid
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com 
 wrote:
 
 Not to be picky but IBC 2013?  Don't ya mean '12?  What section are you 
 referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed?  I can think of two 
 areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and substitute for 1 hour 
 construction.  Did they change?
 
 Chris Cahill, PE*
 Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation  Facilities Group
 Burns  McDonnell
 8201 Norman Center Drive
 Bloomington, MN 55437
 Phone:  952.656.3652
 Fax:  952.229.2923
 ccah...@burnsmcd.com
 www.burnsmcd.com
 
 Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
 *Registered in: MN
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
 Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Window sprinklers
 
 I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to wetting 
 the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire Rated is no 
 longer approved.
 
 Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com:
 
 Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if
 you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window.
 
 Rod at Rapid
 
 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 A.P.Silva
 Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Window sprinklers
 
 I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion.
 Do I need two window sprinklers?
 
 Tony
 
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RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

[Thom McMahon]

Who else has a listing?

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926


Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

You know there are window sprinklers other than Tyco's. 

Greg McGahan


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RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

[Thom McMahon]

The NRC Canada's IRC has an interesting article on the use of SSP QR heads to 
protect tempered glass windows, but I don't believe ICC has adopted any of 
these yet.

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/ibp/irc/ctus/ctus-n12.html


Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926




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RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

[John Drucker]

Don't forget;

2006 IBC Preface-Introduction
Internationally, code officials recognize the need for a modern, up-to-date
building code addressing the design and installation of building systems
through requirements emphasizing performance.

104.11 Alternative materials, design and methods of construction and
equipment.
The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of
any material or to prohibit any design or method of construction not
specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has
been approved. An alternative material, design or method of construction
shall be approved where the building official finds that the proposed design
is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code,
and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended,
at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code in quality,
strength, effectiveness, fire resistance, durability and safety.




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 11:21 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

The NRC Canada's IRC has an interesting article on the use of SSP QR heads
to protect tempered glass windows, but I don't believe ICC has adopted any
of these yet.

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/ibp/irc/ctus/ctus-n12.html


Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926




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Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

[George Medina Jr]

Who else manufactures Window Sprinklers? Also, I am calculating the window 
sprinklers the same way as Tyco is recommending for there 'Window Sprinklers'
to calculate, I could not find in NFPA-13 how to calculate sprinklers for 
Window protection (any suggestions?) I am using Tyco FRB 2.8K heads.


George Medina Jr. 


-Original Message-
From: Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 7:01 pm
Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS


You know there are window sprinklers other than Tyco's. I take the word sill 
iterally when applying this to heads/nozzles that are not specifically listed 
or the rating of the wall like Tyco's. My understanding is that a sill is 
orizontal.
The local fire marshall here has interpreted this section the same way recently.
Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection
850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231

Original Message-
rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] 
n Behalf Of Steve Leyton
ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:53 PM
o: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
ubject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
So long as the water can sheet down the glass from point of contact at the top, 
o the bottom of each panel, you can do it.  As Thom said, refer to the data 
heet for placement requirements; if the panels are less than 6' wide, you will 
ikely have to baffle or separate the spirnklers in some manner so they don't 
old-solder.
Steve Leyton
rotection Design  Consulting
an Diego, CA


Original Message-
rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] 
n Behalf Of John Drucker
ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:52 PM
o: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
ubject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
George,
The objective is that the entire surface of the glass be wetted.  
John Drucker, CET
ire Protection Subcode Official 
ire/Building/Electrical Inspector
ire Marshals Office
orough of Red Bank, NJ


-Original Message-
rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] 
n Behalf Of George Medina Jr
ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:31 PM
o: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
ubject: Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

  apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was 
sking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1.
Thanks,
eorge Medina Jr. 


Original Message-
rom: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com
o: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
ent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm
ubject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

ou're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding.   The glazing can be 
parated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but 
rizontal bumps are a deal-breaker.
teve Leyton
otection Design  Consulting
n Diego, CA

---Original Message-
om: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] 
n Behalf Of George Medina Jr
nt: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM
: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org
bject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
orum,
FPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 
ere window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection 
ceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers 
all be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection 
 being provided for windows 
 complete walls.
ould 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 
ith no sills) be considered a similar feature?
nd require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal 
ojections only.
eorge Medina Jr. 
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Put

RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

[Greg McGahan]

Reliable Model FM for one. They are not listed to make the glass 1 hour rated, 
but they are listed for exposure protection.

Greg McGahan

Living Water Fire Protection
(850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:01 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

Who else has a listing?

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926


Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

You know there are window sprinklers other than Tyco's. 

Greg McGahan


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RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

[Steve Leyton]

You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding.   The glazing can be 
separated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but 
horizontal bumps are a deal-breaker.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Medina Jr
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM
To: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org
Subject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS


Forum,

NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 
Where window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection 
exceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers 
shall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether 
protection is being provided for windows 
or complete walls.

Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 
(with no sills) be considered a similar feature?
 and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal 
projections only.


George Medina Jr. 

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Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

[George Medina Jr]

I  apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was 
asking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1.

Thanks,
George Medina Jr. 




-Original Message-
From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm
Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS


You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding.   The glazing can be 
eparated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but 
orizontal bumps are a deal-breaker.
Steve Leyton
rotection Design  Consulting
an Diego, CA


Original Message-
rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] 
n Behalf Of George Medina Jr
ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM
o: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org
ubject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

orum,
NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 
here window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection 
xceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers 
hall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection 
s being provided for windows 
r complete walls.
Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 
with no sills) be considered a similar feature?
and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal 
rojections only.

eorge Medina Jr. 
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RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

[Robert Thompson]

Check the window sprinkler cutsheets.  


Thank you 
 Robert  Thompson 

 DAKOTA 
FIRE PROTECTION 
1710 N. Washington Street 
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 
Phone # (701) 772-8820 
Fax # (701) 772-7932 
Email rob...@dakotafire.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Medina Jr
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:31 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS


I  apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was 
asking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1.

Thanks,
George Medina Jr. 




-Original Message-
From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm
Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS


You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding.   The glazing can be 
eparated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but 
orizontal bumps are a deal-breaker.
Steve Leyton
rotection Design  Consulting
an Diego, CA


Original Message-
rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] 
n Behalf Of George Medina Jr
ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM
o: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org
ubject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

orum,
NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 
here window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection 
xceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers 
hall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection 
s being provided for windows 
r complete walls.
Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 
with no sills) be considered a similar feature?
and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal 
rojections only.

eorge Medina Jr. 
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RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

[Thom McMahon]

See TYCO data Sheet TFP 620.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Medina Jr
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 1:31 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS


I  apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was 
asking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1.

Thanks,
George Medina Jr. 




-Original Message-
From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm
Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS


You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding.   The glazing can be 
eparated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but 
orizontal bumps are a deal-breaker.
Steve Leyton
rotection Design  Consulting
an Diego, CA


Original Message-
rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] 
n Behalf Of George Medina Jr
ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM
o: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org
ubject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

orum,
NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 
here window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection 
xceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers 
hall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection 
s being provided for windows 
r complete walls.
Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 
with no sills) be considered a similar feature?
and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal 
rojections only.

eorge Medina Jr. 
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RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

[John Drucker]

George,

The objective is that the entire surface of the glass be wetted.  

John Drucker, CET
Fire Protection Subcode Official 
Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector
Fire Marshals Office
Borough of Red Bank, NJ





-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Medina Jr
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:31 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS


I  apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was 
asking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1.

Thanks,
George Medina Jr. 




-Original Message-
From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm
Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS


You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding.   The glazing can be 
eparated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but 
orizontal bumps are a deal-breaker.
Steve Leyton
rotection Design  Consulting
an Diego, CA


Original Message-
rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] 
n Behalf Of George Medina Jr
ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM
o: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org
ubject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

orum,
NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 
here window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection 
xceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers 
hall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection 
s being provided for windows 
r complete walls.
Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 
with no sills) be considered a similar feature?
and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal 
rojections only.

eorge Medina Jr. 
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RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

[Steve Leyton]

So long as the water can sheet down the glass from point of contact at the top, 
to the bottom of each panel, you can do it.  As Thom said, refer to the data 
sheet for placement requirements; if the panels are less than 6' wide, you will 
likely have to baffle or separate the spirnklers in some manner so they don't 
cold-solder.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

George,

The objective is that the entire surface of the glass be wetted.  

John Drucker, CET
Fire Protection Subcode Official 
Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector
Fire Marshals Office
Borough of Red Bank, NJ





-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Medina Jr
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:31 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS


I  apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was 
asking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1.

Thanks,
George Medina Jr. 




-Original Message-
From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm
Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS


You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding.   The glazing can be 
eparated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but 
orizontal bumps are a deal-breaker.
Steve Leyton
rotection Design  Consulting
an Diego, CA


Original Message-
rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] 
n Behalf Of George Medina Jr
ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM
o: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org
ubject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS

orum,
NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 
here window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection 
xceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers 
hall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection 
s being provided for windows 
r complete walls.
Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 
with no sills) be considered a similar feature?
and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal 
rojections only.

eorge Medina Jr. 
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RE: Window sprinklers

[John Drucker]

That's the operative phrase; the entire surface of the glass is wet. SS or
WS the requirement is the same, wet the glass to maintain its integrity as
the barrier. 

There are architectural glass panel systems that employ methods and
materials that conceal the framework and thus are candidates for this
application. The litmus test regardless of the sprinkler is will the entire
surface of the glass be wetted.

John Drucker

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
AKS-Gmail-IMAP
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 11:47 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Window sprinklers

In regard to the first question about to WS or not to WS, note that  
the building code is:

On Mar 8, 2010, at 9:59 PM, John Drucker wrote:

 BETWEEN 4 INCHES AND 12 INCHES (102 MM AND 305 MM) AWAY
 FROM THE GLASS AND DESIGNED SO THAT THE ENTIRE SURFACE OF THE GLASS  
 IS WET
 UPON ACTIVATION OF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WITHOUT OBSTRUCTION.

Almost every window glazing condition uses a storefront type framing  
system where there is a 2 or so frame between the top of the exposed  
glass and the rough opening. Since we must follow NFPA 13 installation  
standards, which includes the obstruction rules, and since we must  
follow the building code requirement to the letter, there is no way to  
position an unobstructed sprinkler at 4 to 12 from the glass without  
the sprinkler deflector at least 2 down from the rough opening. In  
other words in typical architectural conditions this sprinkler must be  
fully pendent to be designed so that the entire surface .. is wet.  
It could not be semi-recessed nor concealed. So if this sprinkler has  
to look pretty much like a WS anyway, then it might as well be a WS.  
At least you will have covered all the bases with an installed  
sprinkler designed for the application. Furthermore, since you cannot  
have horizontal mullions and since each vertical mullion blocks the  
glass wetting, you have the nasty situation where the sprinklers drive  
the architectural design. The flexibility to go to 8 feet with the WS  
instead of 6 feet with standard sprinklers goes a long way to smooth  
out the situation. So again, it might as well be WS when the quantity  
is manageable.

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO


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RE: Window sprinklers

[Chris Cahill]

Only the person that specified the rated wall or alternate means and methods
for the glass can answer that.  You'll note NFPA 13 doesn't have anything
for a contractor to follow, thus this is architect or engineering work to
decide how to do it.

FWIW I've seen both and am comfortable with SS when it's small like an
occasional side light or opening in a door.  IMHO WS are the only way with
large expanses of glass.  I also like to see WS's on their own valve.   

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert
Thompson
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?
 

Thank you 
 Robert  Thompson 

 DAKOTA 
FIRE PROTECTION 
1710 N. Washington Street 
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 
Phone # (701) 772-8820 
Fax # (701) 772-7932 
Email rob...@dakotafire.com 

 
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RE: Window sprinklers

[Sal Izzo (TECH- 103)]

In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance 
rating required to be maintained with this installation.  Only listed window 
sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating 
for glazing.  This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with 
the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance.  If the glazing is located in a 
fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be 
maintained for the opening protective.  Therefore, if sprinklers were to be 
used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window 
sprinklers must be used.  In addition to the testing for the fire rating, the 
positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test specific, as 
this ensures all areas of the are wetted.  This does not apply to regular spray 
sprinklers.

Regards,
Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson 
[rob...@dakotafire.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?


Thank you
 Robert  Thompson

 DAKOTA
FIRE PROTECTION
1710 N. Washington Street
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327
Phone # (701) 772-8820
Fax # (701) 772-7932
Email rob...@dakotafire.com


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RE: Window sprinklers

[Bob Caputo]

Sal,

I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that
window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of
sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code
issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of
the rated glass.  It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a
listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't
specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass.  So wouldn't the answer to
Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements
of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated
glass?

Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to
verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years.

Best regards,

Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081

 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance
rating required to be maintained with this installation.  Only listed window
sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating
for glazing.  This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with
the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance.  If the glazing is located in a
fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be
maintained for the opening protective.  Therefore, if sprinklers were to be
used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window
sprinklers must be used.  In addition to the testing for the fire rating,
the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test
specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted.  This does not apply
to regular spray sprinklers.

Regards,
Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson
[rob...@dakotafire.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?


Thank you
 Robert  Thompson

 DAKOTA
FIRE PROTECTION
1710 N. Washington Street
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327
Phone # (701) 772-8820
Fax # (701) 772-7932
Email rob...@dakotafire.com


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RE: Window sprinklers

[Thom McMahon]

There was a comment that SS sprinklers were used to protect Small
openings. Some of those small openings such as the windows in doors are OK
by code up to a specific size, openings larger than that size would require
listed protection in a listed assembly.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance
rating required to be maintained with this installation.  Only listed window
sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating
for glazing.  This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with
the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance.  If the glazing is located in a
fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be
maintained for the opening protective.  Therefore, if sprinklers were to be
used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window
sprinklers must be used.  In addition to the testing for the fire rating,
the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test
specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted.  This does not apply
to regular spray sprinklers.

Regards,
Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson
[rob...@dakotafire.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?


Thank you
 Robert  Thompson

 DAKOTA
FIRE PROTECTION
1710 N. Washington Street
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327
Phone # (701) 772-8820
Fax # (701) 772-7932
Email rob...@dakotafire.com


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RE: Window sprinklers

[Thom McMahon]

Bob:

Wasn't the whole Atrium glass issue because the walls around an atrium were
being treated like exposure protection, not as rated assembly compliance?
What I think I heard, and could be wrong, was that SSP/ssu closely spaces
were wetting the glass or wall, similar to exposure protection since there
was never going to be a fire fighter 30'+ in the air in the atrium hosing
down the glass.

As I said I could be Wong.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Sal,

I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that
window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of
sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code
issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of
the rated glass.  It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a
listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't
specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass.  So wouldn't the answer to
Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements
of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated
glass?

Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to
verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years.

Best regards,

Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081

 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance
rating required to be maintained with this installation.  Only listed window
sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating
for glazing.  This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with
the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance.  If the glazing is located in a
fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be
maintained for the opening protective.  Therefore, if sprinklers were to be
used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window
sprinklers must be used.  In addition to the testing for the fire rating,
the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test
specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted.  This does not apply
to regular spray sprinklers.

Regards,
Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson
[rob...@dakotafire.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?


Thank you
 Robert  Thompson

 DAKOTA
FIRE PROTECTION
1710 N. Washington Street
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327
Phone # (701) 772-8820
Fax # (701) 772-7932
Email rob...@dakotafire.com


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RE: Window sprinklers

[Bob Caputo]

Thom,

I'm hopeful Mr. Izzo will shed more light on this for us...  it's not a NFPA
13 allowance - it's a building code issue and my expertise is limited to
scuba diving.   


Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
SSI Master Diver Certified

I doubt you could be Wong.

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:21 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Bob:

Wasn't the whole Atrium glass issue because the walls around an atrium were
being treated like exposure protection, not as rated assembly compliance?
What I think I heard, and could be wrong, was that SSP/ssu closely spaces
were wetting the glass or wall, similar to exposure protection since there
was never going to be a fire fighter 30'+ in the air in the atrium hosing
down the glass.

As I said I could be Wong.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Sal,

I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that
window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of
sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code
issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of
the rated glass.  It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a
listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't
specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass.  So wouldn't the answer to
Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements
of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated
glass?

Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to
verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years.

Best regards,

Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081

 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance
rating required to be maintained with this installation.  Only listed window
sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating
for glazing.  This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with
the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance.  If the glazing is located in a
fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be
maintained for the opening protective.  Therefore, if sprinklers were to be
used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window
sprinklers must be used.  In addition to the testing for the fire rating,
the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test
specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted.  This does not apply
to regular spray sprinklers.

Regards,
Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson
[rob...@dakotafire.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?


Thank you
 Robert  Thompson

 DAKOTA
FIRE PROTECTION
1710 N. Washington Street
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327
Phone # (701) 772-8820
Fax # (701) 772-7932
Email rob...@dakotafire.com


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RE: Window sprinklers

[Sal Izzo (TECH- 103)]

Bob:

I agree, Bob.   My dear friend John Drucker would be disappointed in me for 
forgetting about the ability of the building code in providing such 
prescriptive alternatives.  My intent was to just make the distinction between 
a sprinkler actually tested against ASTM E119 and a regular spray sprinkler 
that is not; that a listed window sprinkler would serve as a direct equivalent 
as an opening protective, compared to fire rated glazing, where a regular spray 
sprinkler used for such applications would require some prescriptive 
requirement assigned by the building code (or NFPA standards), as you mention.  
I welcome your comment, as it suits the purpose of this forum  which is to 
learn from each other.  Believe me, I am not looking to push something I cannot 
sell!!

Best Regards,

Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo 
[bcap...@cox.net]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:11 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Sal,

I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that
window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of
sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code
issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of
the rated glass.  It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a
listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't
specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass.  So wouldn't the answer to
Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements
of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated
glass?

Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to
verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years.

Best regards,

Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance
rating required to be maintained with this installation.  Only listed window
sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating
for glazing.  This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with
the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance.  If the glazing is located in a
fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be
maintained for the opening protective.  Therefore, if sprinklers were to be
used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window
sprinklers must be used.  In addition to the testing for the fire rating,
the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test
specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted.  This does not apply
to regular spray sprinklers.

Regards,
Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson
[rob...@dakotafire.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?


Thank you
 Robert  Thompson

 DAKOTA
FIRE PROTECTION
1710 N. Washington Street
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327
Phone # (701) 772-8820
Fax # (701) 772-7932
Email rob...@dakotafire.com


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RE: Window sprinklers

[Chris Cahill]

May be true, don't know.  These rules existed before WS heads.  I would
think part of this was code people had a problem (wanted some rating and
allow glass) with no way to fix it with existing tested technology. Not
unheard of for code writers to use common sense and make things up.
Sometimes this common sense works sometimes may be not so well.  I also
imagine they never thought there would be a market for such a limited
application.

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 3:21 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Bob:

Wasn't the whole Atrium glass issue because the walls around an atrium were
being treated like exposure protection, not as rated assembly compliance?
What I think I heard, and could be wrong, was that SSP/ssu closely spaces
were wetting the glass or wall, similar to exposure protection since there
was never going to be a fire fighter 30'+ in the air in the atrium hosing
down the glass.

As I said I could be Wong.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Sal,

I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that
window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of
sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code
issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of
the rated glass.  It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a
listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't
specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass.  So wouldn't the answer to
Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements
of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated
glass?

Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to
verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years.

Best regards,

Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081

 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance
rating required to be maintained with this installation.  Only listed window
sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating
for glazing.  This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with
the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance.  If the glazing is located in a
fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be
maintained for the opening protective.  Therefore, if sprinklers were to be
used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window
sprinklers must be used.  In addition to the testing for the fire rating,
the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test
specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted.  This does not apply
to regular spray sprinklers.

Regards,
Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson
[rob...@dakotafire.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?


Thank you
 Robert  Thompson

 DAKOTA
FIRE PROTECTION
1710 N. Washington Street
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327
Phone # (701) 772-8820
Fax # (701) 772-7932
Email rob...@dakotafire.com


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RE: Window sprinklers

[Bob Caputo]

Sal,

I assure you, no one thought you were pushing a product.  I was looking for
the education you provided and as always, your wealth of knowledge is
appreciated!

bc

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:42 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Bob:

I agree, Bob.   My dear friend John Drucker would be disappointed in me for
forgetting about the ability of the building code in providing such
prescriptive alternatives.  My intent was to just make the distinction
between a sprinkler actually tested against ASTM E119 and a regular spray
sprinkler that is not; that a listed window sprinkler would serve as a
direct equivalent as an opening protective, compared to fire rated glazing,
where a regular spray sprinkler used for such applications would require
some prescriptive requirement assigned by the building code (or NFPA
standards), as you mention.  I welcome your comment, as it suits the purpose
of this forum  which is to learn from each other.  Believe me, I am not
looking to push something I cannot sell!!

Best Regards,

Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo
[bcap...@cox.net]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:11 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Sal,

I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that
window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of
sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code
issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of
the rated glass.  It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a
listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't
specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass.  So wouldn't the answer to
Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements
of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated
glass?

Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to
verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years.

Best regards,

Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET
657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance
rating required to be maintained with this installation.  Only listed window
sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating
for glazing.  This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with
the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance.  If the glazing is located in a
fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be
maintained for the opening protective.  Therefore, if sprinklers were to be
used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window
sprinklers must be used.  In addition to the testing for the fire rating,
the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test
specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted.  This does not apply
to regular spray sprinklers.

Regards,
Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson
[rob...@dakotafire.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window sprinklers

Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard
spray sprinklers be used?


Thank you
 Robert  Thompson

 DAKOTA
FIRE PROTECTION
1710 N. Washington Street
Grand Forks ND 58206-5327
Phone # (701) 772-8820
Fax # (701) 772-7932
Email rob...@dakotafire.com


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RE: Window sprinklers

[Tom Duross]

Wait.  You mean this exterior dry horizontal sidewall head I'm supposed to
center over the exterior window connected to the wet system piping in the
ceiling might not work the way the engineer drew it?  Buy an engineer drew
it?  It's on the drawring?
(my apologies, a sore spot still..)
Wong

Not unheard of for code writers to use common sense and make things up.
Sometimes this common sense works sometimes may be not so well.  I also
imagine they never thought there would be a market for such a limited
application.

Chris Cahill, P.E.

As I said I could be Wong.

Thom McMahon, SET

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RE: Window sprinklers

[Chris Cahill]

Lol, it works just fine on paper.  Engineers do it on paper, contractors do
it for real.  That's an original of mine if you want to steal it.  Gets a
little complicated for me being both.  

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duross
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:11 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Wait.  You mean this exterior dry horizontal sidewall head I'm supposed to
center over the exterior window connected to the wet system piping in the
ceiling might not work the way the engineer drew it?  Buy an engineer drew
it?  It's on the drawring?
(my apologies, a sore spot still..)
Wong

Not unheard of for code writers to use common sense and make things up.
Sometimes this common sense works sometimes may be not so well.  I also
imagine they never thought there would be a market for such a limited
application.

Chris Cahill, P.E.

As I said I could be Wong.

Thom McMahon, SET

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RE: Window sprinklers

[John Drucker]

Sal, You are forgiven. 

There are instances where the building/fire code prescribes the
protection, the best example is the 903.3.1.2 balcony provisions.

But there are others;

404.5 Enclosure of atriums. Atrium spaces shall be separated from adjacent
spaces by a 1-hour fire barrier constructed in accordance with Section 706
or a horizontal assembly constructed in accordance with Section 711, or
both.

Exceptions: 1.A GLASS WALL FORMING A SMOKE PARTITION WHERE AUTOMATIC
SPRINKLERS ARE SPACED 6 FEET (1829 mm) or less along both sides of the
separation wall, or on the room side only if there is not a walkway on the
atrium side, and BETWEEN 4 INCHES AND 12 INCHES (102 MM AND 305 MM) AWAY
FROM THE GLASS AND DESIGNED SO THAT THE ENTIRE SURFACE OF THE GLASS IS WET
UPON ACTIVATION OF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WITHOUT OBSTRUCTION. The glass shall
be installed in a gasketed frame so that the framing system deflects without
breaking (loading) the glass before the sprinkler system operates.

No mention in the exception of NFPA-13 or listing/approval of the sprinklers
for this specific application. So technically one could prescriptively
standard spray sprinklers spaced every six feet, 12 inches away from and on
one side of a floor to ceiling glass wall.

408.3.6 Exit enclosures. One of the required exit enclosures in each
building shall be permitted to have glazing installed in doors and interior
walls at each landing level providing access to the enclosure, provided that
the following conditions are met:

4. The GLAZING SHALL BE PROTECTED ON BOTH SIDES BY AN AUTOMATIC FIRE
SPRINKLER SYSTEM. The sprinkler system shall be designed to WET COMPLETELY
THE ENTIRE SURFACE OF ANY GLAZING AFFECTED BY FIRE WHEN ACTUATED.
5. The glazing shall be in a gasketed frame and installed in such a manner
that the framing system will deflect without breaking (loading) the glass
before the sprinkler system operates.

However there are those that are specific with regards to approvals/listings
and NFPA-13. Pay particular attention to provisions that require sprinklers
to be provided THROUGHOUT and not just localized protection. 

704.12 Opening protection. WINDOWS IN EXTERIOR WALLS REQUIRED TO HAVE
PROTECTED OPENINGS in accordance with other sections of this code or
determined to be protected in accordance with Section 704.3 or 704.8 shall
comply with Section 715.5. Other openings required to be protected with fire
door or shutter assemblies in accordance with other sections of this code or
determined to be protected in accordance with Section 704.3 or 704.8 shall
comply with Section 715.4.

Exception: OPENING PROTECTIVES ARE NOT REQUIRED WHERE THE BUILDING IS
PROTECTED THROUGHOUT BY AN AUTOMATIC SPRINKLER SYSTEM and the exterior
OPENINGS ARE PROTECTED BY AN APPROVED WATER CURTAIN USING AUTOMATIC
SPRINKLERS APPROVED FOR THAT USE. The sprinklers and the water curtain shall
be installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 and shall have an
automatic water supply and fire department connection. This is typically
where the WS is referenced.

Table 704.1 All groups except B  M- Escalator openings connecting four or
less stories IN A SPRINKLERED BUILDING. Openings MUST BE PROTECTED BY A
DRAFT CURTAIN AND CLOSELY SPACED SPRINKLERS IN ACCORDANCE WITH (2002) NFPA
13. Groups B  M Escalator openings IN A SPRINKLERED BUILDING protected by a
DRAFT CURTAIN AND CLOSELY SPACED SPRINKLERS IN ACCORDANCE WITH (2002) NFPA
13.

These are just code excerpts, always utilize the code in a holistic manner.

Hope that helps,

John Drucker, CET
Fire Protection Subcode Official 
Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector
Fire Marshals Office
Borough of Red Bank, NJ


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo
(TECH- 103)
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:42 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window sprinklers

Bob:

I agree, Bob.   My dear friend John Drucker would be disappointed in me for
forgetting about the ability of the building code in providing such
prescriptive alternatives.  My intent was to just make the distinction
between a sprinkler actually tested against ASTM E119 and a regular spray
sprinkler that is not; that a listed window sprinkler would serve as a
direct equivalent as an opening protective, compared to fire rated glazing,
where a regular spray sprinkler used for such applications would require
some prescriptive requirement assigned by the building code (or NFPA
standards), as you mention.  I welcome your comment, as it suits the purpose
of this forum  which is to learn from each other.  Believe me, I am not
looking to push something I cannot sell!!

Best Regards,

Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE
Manager - Reliable Technical Services

From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo
[bcap...@cox.net]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:11 PM

Re: Window sprinklers

[AKS-Gmail-IMAP]

In regard to the first question about to WS or not to WS, note that  
the building code is:

On Mar 8, 2010, at 9:59 PM, John Drucker wrote:

 BETWEEN 4 INCHES AND 12 INCHES (102 MM AND 305 MM) AWAY
 FROM THE GLASS AND DESIGNED SO THAT THE ENTIRE SURFACE OF THE GLASS  
 IS WET
 UPON ACTIVATION OF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WITHOUT OBSTRUCTION.

Almost every window glazing condition uses a storefront type framing  
system where there is a 2 or so frame between the top of the exposed  
glass and the rough opening. Since we must follow NFPA 13 installation  
standards, which includes the obstruction rules, and since we must  
follow the building code requirement to the letter, there is no way to  
position an unobstructed sprinkler at 4 to 12 from the glass without  
the sprinkler deflector at least 2 down from the rough opening. In  
other words in typical architectural conditions this sprinkler must be  
fully pendent to be designed so that the entire surface .. is wet.  
It could not be semi-recessed nor concealed. So if this sprinkler has  
to look pretty much like a WS anyway, then it might as well be a WS.  
At least you will have covered all the bases with an installed  
sprinkler designed for the application. Furthermore, since you cannot  
have horizontal mullions and since each vertical mullion blocks the  
glass wetting, you have the nasty situation where the sprinklers drive  
the architectural design. The flexibility to go to 8 feet with the WS  
instead of 6 feet with standard sprinklers goes a long way to smooth  
out the situation. So again, it might as well be WS when the quantity  
is manageable.

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

I would say no you can't use them for floor coverage. On the plus side
though I don't think you have to worry about cold soldering from the
ceiling sprinklers either.  

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 85024

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff
Whitfield
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:46 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Forum,

Can a window sprinkler be considered in your head layout or does it
merely
cover the window space only and you must lay out heads using the line of
window sprinklers as your wall?

For example, if this was a standard water curtain with heads on 6'
centers
your heads would cover 7.5' away from the center line of the heads (away
from the water curtain) even in an ordinary hazard occupancy.  But
window
heads appear to me a directional spray specialty head and it seems to me
that the standard coverage heads would need to spray to the center line
of
the window head.

Any thoughts?

Cliff Whitfield, SET
President
Fire Design, Inc.
 
cl...@fire-design.com
www.fire-design.com

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Cliff Whitfield]

Ron,

That's what I was thinking.  I just don't see any way around it.

Their data sheet does require a minimum of 6' from standard sprinklers
without a baffle.  That's one of the things that makes it more difficult to
lay out.

Thanks,
Cliff

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:13 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

I would say no you can't use them for floor coverage. On the plus side
though I don't think you have to worry about cold soldering from the
ceiling sprinklers either.  

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 85024

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff
Whitfield
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:46 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Forum,

Can a window sprinkler be considered in your head layout or does it
merely
cover the window space only and you must lay out heads using the line of
window sprinklers as your wall?

For example, if this was a standard water curtain with heads on 6'
centers
your heads would cover 7.5' away from the center line of the heads (away
from the water curtain) even in an ordinary hazard occupancy.  But
window
heads appear to me a directional spray specialty head and it seems to me
that the standard coverage heads would need to spray to the center line
of
the window head.

Any thoughts?

Cliff Whitfield, SET
President
Fire Design, Inc.
 
cl...@fire-design.com
www.fire-design.com

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Thom McMahon]

Also unless the windows extend to the ceiling the widow sprinklers will be
placed lower than the ceiling protection, since they are only intended to
protect the window opening, and not floor space.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff
Whitfield
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:20 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Ron,

That's what I was thinking.  I just don't see any way around it.

Their data sheet does require a minimum of 6' from standard sprinklers
without a baffle.  That's one of the things that makes it more difficult to
lay out.

Thanks,
Cliff

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:13 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

I would say no you can't use them for floor coverage. On the plus side
though I don't think you have to worry about cold soldering from the ceiling
sprinklers either.  

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 85024

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff
Whitfield
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:46 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Forum,

Can a window sprinkler be considered in your head layout or does it merely
cover the window space only and you must lay out heads using the line of
window sprinklers as your wall?

For example, if this was a standard water curtain with heads on 6'
centers
your heads would cover 7.5' away from the center line of the heads (away
from the water curtain) even in an ordinary hazard occupancy.  But window
heads appear to me a directional spray specialty head and it seems to me
that the standard coverage heads would need to spray to the center line of
the window head.

Any thoughts?

Cliff Whitfield, SET
President
Fire Design, Inc.
 
cl...@fire-design.com
www.fire-design.com

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Cliff Whitfield]

Thom,

That brings up another issue I've been wondering about.  I am being required
to use these on both sides of the windows.  I have not studied the details
yet but if the top of the window is at 7' AFF and the ceiling is at 12', how
do the heads activate in a timely fashion?  That could be an issue on the
inside of this area.  

The bigger problem I have is that this window (about 140 lf in one
direction) is for an overlook into a restoration hangar and the roof on the
outside of the window is probably 20' above the top of the window.  What is
the chance that those heads will ever activate?  I'm sure the guys at Tyco
did their research and the EoR knows exactly what he is doing but something
in my mind wants to throw up a red flag.  It just goes against what I think
I understand about sprinklers. 

Cliff

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 12:34 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Also unless the windows extend to the ceiling the widow sprinklers will be
placed lower than the ceiling protection, since they are only intended to
protect the window opening, and not floor space.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff
Whitfield
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:20 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Ron,

That's what I was thinking.  I just don't see any way around it.

Their data sheet does require a minimum of 6' from standard sprinklers
without a baffle.  That's one of the things that makes it more difficult to
lay out.

Thanks,
Cliff

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:13 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

I would say no you can't use them for floor coverage. On the plus side
though I don't think you have to worry about cold soldering from the ceiling
sprinklers either.  

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 85024

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff
Whitfield
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:46 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Forum,

Can a window sprinkler be considered in your head layout or does it merely
cover the window space only and you must lay out heads using the line of
window sprinklers as your wall?

For example, if this was a standard water curtain with heads on 6'
centers
your heads would cover 7.5' away from the center line of the heads (away
from the water curtain) even in an ordinary hazard occupancy.  But window
heads appear to me a directional spray specialty head and it seems to me
that the standard coverage heads would need to spray to the center line of
the window head.

Any thoughts?

Cliff Whitfield, SET
President
Fire Design, Inc.
 
cl...@fire-design.com
www.fire-design.com

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(Put the word

RE: Window Sprinklers

[Thom McMahon]

There is a test white paper on these heads on the ICC web site, that I
looked at several years ago. Basically these heads are to keep the glass
from reaching a temp that would cause it to crack or fail. That temp is
higher than the rating for these heads. The heads are exposed to the same
heat sources as are the glass, Convection conduction and radiant heat. They
don't need to activate at all if the fire is controlled by the control mode
sprinklers, but they need to operate if the sprinkler system is overwhelmed
or the fire source is located close to the glass. They need to maintain the
hour rating of the separation. Both sides of the glass is the preferred
installation unless you can guarantee which side will have the fire. As you
know the convection will not usually be a large factor with windows this far
below the ceilings, but radiant heat and conduction, as well as heat forced
down by the ceiling sprinklers when they operate can put the glass at risk.
Timely is relative. They only need to activate before the glass fails, or
gets hot enough for the water to cause the glass to fail. That is why the
placement rules are so specific. 

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff
Whitfield
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 11:58 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Thom,

That brings up another issue I've been wondering about.  I am being required
to use these on both sides of the windows.  I have not studied the details
yet but if the top of the window is at 7' AFF and the ceiling is at 12', how
do the heads activate in a timely fashion?  That could be an issue on the
inside of this area.  

The bigger problem I have is that this window (about 140 lf in one
direction) is for an overlook into a restoration hangar and the roof on the
outside of the window is probably 20' above the top of the window.  What is
the chance that those heads will ever activate?  I'm sure the guys at Tyco
did their research and the EoR knows exactly what he is doing but something
in my mind wants to throw up a red flag.  It just goes against what I think
I understand about sprinklers. 

Cliff


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Thom McMahon]

ICC link to report



http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/NES/NER516.pdf

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

More great information, thanks for your input I have learned a lot.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 3:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Its important to keep the context of the building code clear. First 2006 IBC 
Section 704 applies to EXTERIOR WALLS.

2006 IBC 704.12 Opening Protection applies to; WINDOWS in EXTERIOR WALLS 
REQUIRED to have protected openings in accordance with other sections of this 
code OR determined to be protected in accordance with Section 704.3 (Buildings 
on the Same Lot) or 704.8 (Allowable Area of Openings  Table 704.8 Fire 
Separation Distance) SHALL comply with Section 715.5 (Fire protection rated 
glazing, i.e. wired glass, ceramic glass.rated materials NOT reliant on 
sprinkler protection) 

In summary windows in exterior walls that are required to be protected openings 
by the building code must be protected by fire protection rated glazing. 

The balance of Section 704.12 reads; OTHER OPENINGS REQUIRED to be protected 
with FIRE DOOR or SHUTTER ASSEMBLIES in accordance with Section 704.3 
(Buildings on the Same Lot) or 704.8 (Allowable Area of Openings  Table 704.8 
Fire Separation Distance) SHALL comply with Section 715.4 (Fire Door and 
shutter assembliesrated doors, closers, rolling shutters..rated 
materials NOT reliant on sprinkler protection, well almost glazing in doors 
exceeding 100 s.i. isn't required to comply with the 450F maximum end point 
where the building is equipped throughout with NFPA-13 or 13R sprinklers)

In summary openings other then windows in exterior walls that are required to 
be protected by the building code must be protected by fire door or shutter 
assemblies.

That's it, with one minor exception for 100 s.i. glazing in doors no sprinklers 
!.

Oh...the EXCEPTION to IBC 704.12.

OPENING PROTECTIVES are NOT required where the building is protected 
THROUGHOUT by an automatic sprinkler system AND the EXTERIOR OPENINGS are 
protected by an APPROVED WATER CURTAIN using automatic sprinklers approved for 
that use.

In summary, a DESIGN PROFESSIONAL can tradeoff the Fire protective rated 
glazing, fire doors and shutter assemblies by sprinklering the building 
throughout and protecting the openings with an approved water curtain. But 
remember its an EXCEPTION and not a REQUIREMENT. Exceptions ONLY apply where 
the designer of record stipulates to the code official they are taking the 
exception, not the other way around !


There is one more thing.In New Jersey, Engineers like Chris and Scot 
can submit an APPLICATION FOR VARIATION-F160A requesting relief from the 
prescribed requirements of the code where compliance with said provisions would 
result in practical difficulties by submitting an alternative that will still 
protect the health, safety and welfare of the occupants.

However, the operative word in this process is PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY, not 
financial, don't agree with the code, slept poorly the night before, etc. etc.  
Keep in mind also that a code official is not obligated to approve an 
application for variation, but rather it is an avenue that is open for 
consideration.

Sincerely,

John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ)
Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector

Safe Buildings Save Lives ! 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 2:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

You DO NOT need building code permission use these heads in an unsprinklered 
building. They comply with the building code. The building code requires a 
rated wall.  We prove ratings through listing agencies performing tests.  WS 
heads passed the same tests as every other type of rated wall.  They put a 
glass wall in a furnace with a WS head and lit the fire.  They measure the 
temperature on the cold side as prescribed in the test.  The only subtle 
problem I recall is the temperature didn't quite work out because the water 
absorbed too many BTU's. 

No I don't have a UL directory handy.  I expect if you look it up under 2 hr 
walls you will find a variety of sheetrock based solutions, concrete solutions 
and at least one glass solution using WS heads.  I recall this as there is at 
least one of these in the City of St. Paul, rated glass wall in an 
unsprinklered building using WS heads.  I had to approve it in my capacity of 
the reviewing authority because it met the CODE.  I didn't like it but my 
OPINION has little bearing when you meet the letter of the CODE.


Now in MY ENGINEERING OPINION I think it's a bad idea to use these in an 
otherwise unsprinkler building.  No I don't have a solid basis for this 
opinion, call it 'cuz.  I also think it's a bad idea not to sprinkler 
everything

RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

Thanks man, great information.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of å... 
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 5:03 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Pagni, at Berkeley and a grad-student made
a computer program to predict glass breakage
from fire exposure.  Think that was back in the 80s'.

It wasn't air bubbles or liquefaction that caused
window breakage in their findings.  It was heating
differences between exposed glass and the glass
shielded by the frame.  The difference (radiative
heating being a component)
between exposed and shielded glass created
enough strain to break the pane.

so, Ron, I guess it is possible to have a fire
burn far enough away from the window, to break
that window while not activating the window sprinkler,
particularly from expsosure fires.  Tyco passed
the test, but we can't dis them for this: regulatory
capture. The WS has game in the overwhelming
majority of applications.


We were told in some threads to throw away logic
and do what the Code prescribes.  And that covers
our ifs, ands or butts.  But the truth is, there still is
the remote (and assumable) chance that in an unsprinklered
building where we use the window sprinkler to assist
us in achieving a wall rating... e.g. in the case of a 2 story
wall uninterrupted by a floor that has glass comprising only the
bottom story... there is a real possibility that the
window sprinkler system will not prevent window
breakage from a fire.

Then the next question is, for the engineer or architect
at least,  so what if the wall breaks?
It is a big what if,  if the fire exposes a nursery school, or retirement
home, or similar life safety challenge, but in many occupancies,
everyone of reasonable mobility abilities will still exit safely.
Property protection is another mention.


scot deal
excelsior fire protection
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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Steve Leyton]

That explains a lot about the composition of fire-rated glazing.   I don't know 
what the treatment is that's applied to Fire-Lite or other rated glass but 
the knock on those products is that they are exorbitantly expensive.   It's not 
as if you can order up pieces of it - you have to purchase the entire assembly, 
including and especially the frame.   If you've ever seen this stuff up close, 
especially if you've seen a section cut at  trade show, the frames are not only 
really over-built compared to conventional windows, but instead of simple 
gaskets or weather seals there is a bead of fire caulk around the glazing on 
both sides.   The frame and sealant are where the bid money goes, along with 
the costs of testing and listing of course.   

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of å... 
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 5:03 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window Sprinklers


We were told in some threads to throw away logic
and do what the Code prescribes.  And that covers
our ifs, ands or butts.  But the truth is, there still is
the remote (and assumable) chance that in an unsprinklered
building where we use the window sprinkler to assist
us in achieving a wall rating... e.g. in the case of a 2 story
wall uninterrupted by a floor that has glass comprising only the
bottom story... there is a real possibility that the
window sprinkler system will not prevent window
breakage from a fire.

Then the next question is, for the engineer or architect
at least,  so what if the wall breaks?
It is a big what if,  if the fire exposes a nursery school, or retirement
home, or similar life safety challenge, but in many occupancies,
everyone of reasonable mobility abilities will still exit safely.
Property protection is another mention.


scot deal
excelsior fire protection
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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Justin Reid]

In an exposure fire like the one described, it would be the responsibility of 
the design team to make sure that the fusible link of the sprinkler head is in 
an area that can sense the exposure threat. NFPA 80A discusses this concept 
in its appendix. So the glass bulb in the sprinkler head should be in a 
location that will receive the radiated heat from the fire just like the 
tempered glass wall will. In other words, it should not be behind some 
architectural feature that would shield the glass bulb in the sprinkler head 
from the radiation exposure. 

 Re-reading my previous post it seems that I was suggesting that the bubble in 
the glass bulb of the sprinkler head is what helps activates the head. It is 
actually the lack of the bubble that activates the head. As the liquid in the 
bulb heats up, it expands and fills the air space (bubble) in the bulb and once 
the air space is gone the pressure build up in the liquid assists the glass 
bulb in rupturing. The point in the previous post was that the glass bulb in 
the sprinkler head has an internal force that is helping to break it and the 
tempered glass wall does not. 

So it would seem to me if both glass elements are subject to the same radiated 
exposure, the glass bulb in the sprinkler head would break before the tempered 
glass wall. I am not 100% sure about this though, and it would be interesting 
to see a live fire test.  

I am assuming that when the Tyco head was listed, the heads were closed prior 
to the start of the test and prior to being exposed to the standard time 
temperature curve.

Regards,

Justin D. Reid, P.E.
Project Engineer
RLH Fire Protection 
468 N. Camden Dr. #290L
Beverly Hills, CA 90210
Office: (310) 601-3013
Cell: (213) 798-0251
Fax: (866) 871-2237
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   
 
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of å... 
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 8:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Thank you for this criticism.  That is what makes this forum really useful
as a tool.
bare-knuckled debate. I never said i was not the fool.  But being an
engineer, well,
some people consider a license to prove me a fool. I admit it. don't need to
prove it.
Fire away, all day and all night.  I'll take the bullets if that is what it
takes to learn
the lesson and get the design tight.

from a couple of stitches back on this dead thread.

  ... The cut sheet supports this in Based on this successful testing, the
Model WS Specific Application Window Sprinkler can be used as interior
protection of windows or glazing in a sprinklered building or
non-sprinklered building.

scot deal
excelsior fire

*
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Thom McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 This thread has already gone on way too long but I can't let this slide.



 Scott: [sic] ...your already outside the scope of the listing and the
 building code, so your
 using your Engineer Status
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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

According to information provided in this thread the tests were performed with 
the sprinkler flowing. That's why I said the tests prove the WS is a good open 
deluge nozzle, not necessarily an automatic sprinkler.

(thump - thump)Sound of dead horse being beaten.

Happy Friday to all,

Ron Fletcher

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justin Reid
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 10:17 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

In an exposure fire like the one described, it would be the responsibility of 
the design team to make sure that the fusible link of the sprinkler head is in 
an area that can sense the exposure threat. NFPA 80A discusses this concept 
in its appendix. So the glass bulb in the sprinkler head should be in a 
location that will receive the radiated heat from the fire just like the 
tempered glass wall will. In other words, it should not be behind some 
architectural feature that would shield the glass bulb in the sprinkler head 
from the radiation exposure. 

 Re-reading my previous post it seems that I was suggesting that the bubble in 
the glass bulb of the sprinkler head is what helps activates the head. It is 
actually the lack of the bubble that activates the head. As the liquid in the 
bulb heats up, it expands and fills the air space (bubble) in the bulb and once 
the air space is gone the pressure build up in the liquid assists the glass 
bulb in rupturing. The point in the previous post was that the glass bulb in 
the sprinkler head has an internal force that is helping to break it and the 
tempered glass wall does not. 

So it would seem to me if both glass elements are subject to the same radiated 
exposure, the glass bulb in the sprinkler head would break before the tempered 
glass wall. I am not 100% sure about this though, and it would be interesting 
to see a live fire test.  

I am assuming that when the Tyco head was listed, the heads were closed prior 
to the start of the test and prior to being exposed to the standard time 
temperature curve.

Regards,

Justin D. Reid, P.E.
Project Engineer
RLH Fire Protection 
468 N. Camden Dr. #290L
Beverly Hills, CA 90210
Office: (310) 601-3013
Cell: (213) 798-0251
Fax: (866) 871-2237
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   
 
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of å... 
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 8:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Thank you for this criticism.  That is what makes this forum really useful
as a tool.
bare-knuckled debate. I never said i was not the fool.  But being an
engineer, well,
some people consider a license to prove me a fool. I admit it. don't need to
prove it.
Fire away, all day and all night.  I'll take the bullets if that is what it
takes to learn
the lesson and get the design tight.

from a couple of stitches back on this dead thread.

  ... The cut sheet supports this in Based on this successful testing, the
Model WS Specific Application Window Sprinkler can be used as interior
protection of windows or glazing in a sprinklered building or
non-sprinklered building.

scot deal
excelsior fire

*
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Thom McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 This thread has already gone on way too long but I can't let this slide.



 Scott: [sic] ...your already outside the scope of the listing and the
 building code, so your
 using your Engineer Status
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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Chris Cahill]

You DO NOT need building code permission use these heads in an unsprinklered
building. They comply with the building code. The building code requires a
rated wall.  We prove ratings through listing agencies performing tests.  WS
heads passed the same tests as every other type of rated wall.  They put a
glass wall in a furnace with a WS head and lit the fire.  They measure the
temperature on the cold side as prescribed in the test.  The only subtle
problem I recall is the temperature didn't quite work out because the water
absorbed too many BTU's. 

No I don't have a UL directory handy.  I expect if you look it up under 2 hr
walls you will find a variety of sheetrock based solutions, concrete
solutions and at least one glass solution using WS heads.  I recall this as
there is at least one of these in the City of St. Paul, rated glass wall in
an unsprinklered building using WS heads.  I had to approve it in my
capacity of the reviewing authority because it met the CODE.  I didn't like
it but my OPINION has little bearing when you meet the letter of the CODE.


Now in MY ENGINEERING OPINION I think it's a bad idea to use these in an
otherwise unsprinkler building.  No I don't have a solid basis for this
opinion, call it 'cuz.  I also think it's a bad idea not to sprinkler
everything.  Additionally, for the most part I don't see the value of rated
walls in the first place in sprinklered buildings.  As an engineer I don't
see the value of WS's either way.  Going to many fires as a firefighter I
don't see the value of rated walls either.  Sprinkler it and the rest
doesn't matter!

Also to Justin's comment - It's been a very long time since I read the
original report. As I recall the heads were not open at the start of the
test.  The trick to keeping the glass from breaking before the head fused is
what lead to the pony wall requirement.  With a couple inches between the
glass and a fire the head fuses and all is well.  Push the fire right up
against the glass and it cracked before the head fused.  This problem was
tested in the original report I read in like 1996.

I certainly accept my memory can be flawed.  I've hit my head too many times
to not have done some damage.  I also like liquor, perhaps I killed some of
the brain cells in this WS area.  Living healthy is the slowest and most
boring way to die.   

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 11:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Yes but the building code does not! So I guess where you have no building
code your OK. 

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of å... 
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 9:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Thank you for this criticism.  That is what makes this forum really useful
as a tool.
bare-knuckled debate. I never said i was not the fool.  But being an
engineer, well, some people consider a license to prove me a fool. I admit
it. don't need to prove it.
Fire away, all day and all night.  I'll take the bullets if that is what it
takes to learn the lesson and get the design tight.

from a couple of stitches back on this dead thread.

  ... The cut sheet supports this in Based on this successful testing, the
Model WS Specific Application Window Sprinkler can be used as interior
protection of windows or glazing in a sprinklered building or
non-sprinklered building.

scot deal
excelsior fire

*
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Thom McMahon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 This thread has already gone on way too long but I can't let this slide.



 Scott: [sic] ...your already outside the scope of the listing and the 
 building code, so your using your Engineer Status
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RE: Window Sprinklers

[John Drucker]

Its important to keep the context of the building code clear. First 2006 IBC 
Section 704 applies to EXTERIOR WALLS.

2006 IBC 704.12 Opening Protection applies to; WINDOWS in EXTERIOR WALLS 
REQUIRED to have protected openings in accordance with other sections of this 
code OR determined to be protected in accordance with Section 704.3 (Buildings 
on the Same Lot) or 704.8 (Allowable Area of Openings  Table 704.8 Fire 
Separation Distance) SHALL comply with Section 715.5 (Fire protection rated 
glazing, i.e. wired glass, ceramic glass.rated materials NOT reliant on 
sprinkler protection) 

In summary windows in exterior walls that are required to be protected openings 
by the building code must be protected by fire protection rated glazing. 

The balance of Section 704.12 reads; OTHER OPENINGS REQUIRED to be protected 
with FIRE DOOR or SHUTTER ASSEMBLIES in accordance with Section 704.3 
(Buildings on the Same Lot) or 704.8 (Allowable Area of Openings  Table 704.8 
Fire Separation Distance) SHALL comply with Section 715.4 (Fire Door and 
shutter assembliesrated doors, closers, rolling shutters..rated 
materials NOT reliant on sprinkler protection, well almost glazing in doors 
exceeding 100 s.i. isn't required to comply with the 450F maximum end point 
where the building is equipped throughout with NFPA-13 or 13R sprinklers)

In summary openings other then windows in exterior walls that are required to 
be protected by the building code must be protected by fire door or shutter 
assemblies.

That's it, with one minor exception for 100 s.i. glazing in doors no sprinklers 
!.

Oh...the EXCEPTION to IBC 704.12.

OPENING PROTECTIVES are NOT required where the building is protected 
THROUGHOUT by an automatic sprinkler system AND the EXTERIOR OPENINGS are 
protected by an APPROVED WATER CURTAIN using automatic sprinklers approved for 
that use.

In summary, a DESIGN PROFESSIONAL can tradeoff the Fire protective rated 
glazing, fire doors and shutter assemblies by sprinklering the building 
throughout and protecting the openings with an approved water curtain. But 
remember its an EXCEPTION and not a REQUIREMENT. Exceptions ONLY apply where 
the designer of record stipulates to the code official they are taking the 
exception, not the other way around !


There is one more thing.In New Jersey, Engineers like Chris and Scot 
can submit an APPLICATION FOR VARIATION-F160A requesting relief from the 
prescribed requirements of the code where compliance with said provisions would 
result in practical difficulties by submitting an alternative that will still 
protect the health, safety and welfare of the occupants.

However, the operative word in this process is PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY, not 
financial, don't agree with the code, slept poorly the night before, etc. etc.  
Keep in mind also that a code official is not obligated to approve an 
application for variation, but rather it is an avenue that is open for 
consideration.

Sincerely,

John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ)
Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector

Safe Buildings Save Lives ! 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 2:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

You DO NOT need building code permission use these heads in an unsprinklered 
building. They comply with the building code. The building code requires a 
rated wall.  We prove ratings through listing agencies performing tests.  WS 
heads passed the same tests as every other type of rated wall.  They put a 
glass wall in a furnace with a WS head and lit the fire.  They measure the 
temperature on the cold side as prescribed in the test.  The only subtle 
problem I recall is the temperature didn't quite work out because the water 
absorbed too many BTU's. 

No I don't have a UL directory handy.  I expect if you look it up under 2 hr 
walls you will find a variety of sheetrock based solutions, concrete solutions 
and at least one glass solution using WS heads.  I recall this as there is at 
least one of these in the City of St. Paul, rated glass wall in an 
unsprinklered building using WS heads.  I had to approve it in my capacity of 
the reviewing authority because it met the CODE.  I didn't like it but my 
OPINION has little bearing when you meet the letter of the CODE.


Now in MY ENGINEERING OPINION I think it's a bad idea to use these in an 
otherwise unsprinkler building.  No I don't have a solid basis for this 
opinion, call it 'cuz.  I also think it's a bad idea not to sprinkler 
everything.  Additionally, for the most part I don't see the value of rated 
walls in the first place in sprinklered buildings.  As an engineer I don't see 
the value of WS's either way.  Going to many fires as a firefighter I don't see 
the value of rated walls either.  Sprinkler it and the rest doesn't matter!

Also to Justin's comment

RE: Window Sprinklers

[Russell]

10 years is new when you've been in this trade for 30 yrs. wouldn't you
think?


Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

I agree. Heck the '02 NFPA #13 is the current standard in most
jurisdictions and will be until after the '09 IBC is adopted.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 5:12 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

10 years is new when you've been in this trade for 30 yrs. wouldn't you
think?


Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Russell]

You're right, it is just relative and it had nothing at all to do with my
post so I guess I shouldn't have shared it.



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 11:42 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

ToMAYto, toMAHto - my point only being that it's not as if these
sprinklers just showed up with the I-codes.   Quell is newer, EC storage
sprinklers are newer, 17K, 22K and 25K ESFR is newer; .05 residential
listing is newer; .10 residential density in 13 is newer.   I guess it's
all relative.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 5:12 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

10 years is new when you've been in this trade for 30 yrs. wouldn't you
think?


Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Bill Minkel]

Ah, Gotcha

Bill Minkel, Designer
Dallas, TX
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there
a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or
totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler
Lite

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours
would also be more than adequate for 1 hour?

Bill Minkel,

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[bill . brooks]

Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler
protection) would occur within the first minutes.  Once the minimum
water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last
as long as the water is flowing.  Does this sound logical?

Bill Brooks

William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell

 Original Message 
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers
From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Ah, Gotcha

Bill Minkel, Designer
Dallas, TX
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is
there
a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice
or
totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler
Lite

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2
hours
would also be more than adequate for 1 hour?

Bill Minkel,

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Steve Leyton]

The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used to 
establish any other rated assembly.   A test fire is built on one side of the 
subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's a 
steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - 
Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject 
and it can't fail.  I think your assumption is correct that the surface is 
protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 
or 20 GPM depending on spacing.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler
protection) would occur within the first minutes.  Once the minimum
water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last
as long as the water is flowing.  Does this sound logical?

Bill Brooks

William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell

 Original Message 
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers
From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Ah, Gotcha

Bill Minkel, Designer
Dallas, TX
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is
there
a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice
or
totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler
Lite

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2
hours
would also be more than adequate for 1 hour?

Bill Minkel,

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__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 3485 (20081001) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 3485 (20081001) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation?

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:28 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used
to establish any other rated assembly.   A test fire is built on one
side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then
there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the
same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is
jetted against the subject and it can't fail.  I think your assumption
is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s)
flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler
protection) would occur within the first minutes.  Once the minimum
water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last
as long as the water is flowing.  Does this sound logical?

Bill Brooks

William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell

 Original Message 
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers
From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Ah, Gotcha

Bill Minkel, Designer
Dallas, TX
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is
there
a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice
or
totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler
Lite

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2
hours
would also be more than adequate for 1 hour?

Bill Minkel,

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__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 3485 (20081001) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 3485 (20081001) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Steve Leyton]

Yes.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher,
Ron
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:10 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation?

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:28 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used
to establish any other rated assembly.   A test fire is built on one
side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then
there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the
same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is
jetted against the subject and it can't fail.  I think your assumption
is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s)
flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler
protection) would occur within the first minutes.  Once the minimum
water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last
as long as the water is flowing.  Does this sound logical?

Bill Brooks

William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell

 Original Message 
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers
From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Ah, Gotcha

Bill Minkel, Designer
Dallas, TX
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is
there
a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice
or
totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler
Lite

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2
hours
would also be more than adequate for 1 hour?

Bill Minkel,

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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

The glass can't do its job if it isn't in tact? What guarantees the
glass will remain intact until the sprinkler activates?

Ron Rletcher

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:19 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Same as for any rated wall or partition.  It can't do it's job if it's
not intact.


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher,
Ron
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:10 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation?

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:28 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used
to establish any other rated assembly.   A test fire is built on one
side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then
there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the
same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is
jetted against the subject and it can't fail.  I think your assumption
is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s)
flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler
protection) would occur within the first minutes.  Once the minimum
water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last
as long as the water is flowing.  Does this sound logical?

Bill Brooks

William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell

 Original Message 
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers
From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Ah, Gotcha

Bill Minkel, Designer
Dallas, TX
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is
there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller
orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence
Window Sprinkler Lite

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2
hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour?

Bill Minkel,

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signature database 3485 (20081001) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 3485 (20081001) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

RE: Window Sprinklers

[Craig.Prahl]

If you've installed it per the mfgr. listing, as it was tested, then where's 
the heartburn.  Don't deviate or improvise the installation and TYCO should 
stand behind the product.

You can't design a system to operate perfectly in every single what-if 
scenario.


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:42 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

And nobody thinks that might be a problem? I have installed these heads four 
feet below a ceiling and outside with only the mullion to act as a heat 
collector. Seems like quite a leap of faith to assume the sprinkler will 
activate in a timely manner.

Ron Fletcher



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Yes.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:10 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation?

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:28 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used
to establish any other rated assembly.   A test fire is built on one
side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's 
a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - 
Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject 
and it can't fail.  I think your assumption is correct that the surface is 
protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 
or 20 GPM depending on spacing.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler
protection) would occur within the first minutes.  Once the minimum water 
discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as 
the water is flowing.  Does this sound logical?

Bill Brooks

William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell

 Original Message 
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers
From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Ah, Gotcha

Bill Minkel, Designer
Dallas, TX
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a 
Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or 
totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours 
would also be more than adequate for 1 hour?

Bill Minkel,

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

And nobody thinks that might be a problem? I have installed these heads
four feet below a ceiling and outside with only the mullion to act as a
heat collector. Seems like quite a leap of faith to assume the sprinkler
will activate in a timely manner.

Ron Fletcher



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Yes.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher,
Ron
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:10 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation?

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:28 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used
to establish any other rated assembly.   A test fire is built on one
side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then
there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the
same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is
jetted against the subject and it can't fail.  I think your assumption
is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s)
flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler
protection) would occur within the first minutes.  Once the minimum
water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last
as long as the water is flowing.  Does this sound logical?

Bill Brooks

William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell

 Original Message 
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers
From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Ah, Gotcha

Bill Minkel, Designer
Dallas, TX
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is
there
a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice
or
totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler
Lite

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2
hours
would also be more than adequate for 1 hour?

Bill Minkel,

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[John Drucker]

2006 IBC 704.12 provides for exterior window opening utilizing a water
curtain.  Exception - Opening protectives are not required where the
building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system and
the exterior openings are protected by an approved water curtain using
automatic sprinklers approved for that use. The sprinklers and the
water curtain shall be installed in accordance with section 903.3.1.1
(NFPA13) and shall have an automatic water supply and fire department
connection.

The Tyco/Central WS for example is a listed window sprinkler. ICC ES
Legacy Report NER-516 provides specific instructions on the application
of window sprinklers including but not limited glazing, frames, non
bearing walls, etc. The complete report can be downloaded/read at; 
 
http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/NES/NER516.pdf
 
John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ)
Red Bank, NJ


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:28 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used
to establish any other rated assembly.   A test fire is built on one
side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then
there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the
same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is
jetted against the subject and it can't fail.  I think your assumption
is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s)
flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler
protection) would occur within the first minutes.  Once the minimum
water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last
as long as the water is flowing.  Does this sound logical?

Bill Brooks

William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell

 Original Message 
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers
From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Ah, Gotcha

Bill Minkel, Designer
Dallas, TX
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is
there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller
orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence
Window Sprinkler Lite

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2
hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour?

Bill Minkel,

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Russell]

Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data sheet
states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and the
quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to me
because the data states that there is no specific distance below the
ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to defector
distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no
info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to heat
build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different about
the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the
standard glass bulb I wonder?



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Thom McMahon]

The glass remains intact because of the location (close proximity) to the
glass of the sprinkler heads. At 155'F/200'F the heads go off before the
glass temp rises above that, due to the mass of the glass requiring longer
than air to rise in temp. Also the distance from the glass to the sprinkler
is on 1/2 to 4 so pretty much any heat the glazing gets the sprinkler
gets. Glass is an Amorphous solid, with a very high melting point. (1800'F
to make it a fused liquid.) So long before it would melt or drop out of the
frame from the heat, the sprinkler would activate. Through testing TYCO has
shown that with the proper placement and spray pattern the sprinkler spray
cools the glass before it reaches a temperature that might cause the glazing
to shatter.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:10 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation?

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[R Richardson]

I believe the issue is similar to in-rack sprinklers in that the activation is 
more or less direct flame impingement.  If there is enough heat to jeopardize 
the side of a building the head will likely activate.

Rich Richardson
Seattle Fire Department

 Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/01/2008 09:49 
Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data sheet
states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and the
quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to me
because the data states that there is no specific distance below the
ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to defector
distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no
info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to heat
build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different about
the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the
standard glass bulb I wonder?



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Steve Leyton]

The obvious answer would be heat that directly threatens the glass; a
sprinkler could react directly to heat on the same side or to heat
radiated from the other side.   If it's not hot enough at the window to
operate the sprinkler, the presumption is that it's not hot enough to
threaten the integrity of the glass, hence the requirement for tempered
glass.   Check the data sheet for dimensional criteria for placement -
it's pretty articulate.  Distances toward/away from the glass and
deflector position from top of glazing are all clearly shown in
elevation and plan views.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:50 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data
sheet
states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and
the
quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to
me
because the data states that there is no specific distance below the
ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to
defector
distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no
info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to
heat
build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different
about
the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the
standard glass bulb I wonder?



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

That was my point exactly. Not how to install the head per the listing.
A manual system would be more dependable than a closed head system with
no heat collection.

Here's a what if. What if there's a fire, the glass gets hot and fire
department hits the glass with a hose stream before the window sprinkler
has activated.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:50 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data
sheet
states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and
the
quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to
me
because the data states that there is no specific distance below the
ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to
defector
distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no
info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to
heat
build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different
about
the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the
standard glass bulb I wonder?



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Justin Reid]

The glass bulb in the sprinkler head has a little air bubble that
assists breaking the glass when it is heated up. The tempered glass
making up the wall does not have this air bubble in it. The 155 F
sprinkler activation temperature is much less than the temperature when
glass breaks (check out Babrauskas http://www.doctorfire.com/glass.html
). 

Because the sprinkler is above the glass being protected, it will heat
up with a descending smoke layer faster than the glass being protected.
If the sprinkler and the glass are being heated from exposure (from
radiation) then the glass bulb in the sprinkler will burst at 155 (once
again due to the bubble) while the tempered glass should remain intact.

Justin D. Reid, P.E.
Project Engineer
RLH Fire Protection 
468 N. Camden Dr. #290L
Beverly Hills, CA 90210
Office: (310) 601-3013
Cell: (213) 798-0251
Fax: (866) 871-2237
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   
 
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:50 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data
sheet
states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and
the
quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to
me
because the data states that there is no specific distance below the
ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to
defector
distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no
info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to
heat
build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different
about
the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the
standard glass bulb I wonder?



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Craig.Prahl]

If that happens what's the problem?

If FD is on the scene and attacking the fire then most likely occupants are 
out, hose streams are in play and sprinklers at the glass are a non-issue.  
What about the other sprinklers, are they active?


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:08 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

That was my point exactly. Not how to install the head per the listing.
A manual system would be more dependable than a closed head system with no heat 
collection.

Here's a what if. What if there's a fire, the glass gets hot and fire 
department hits the glass with a hose stream before the window sprinkler has 
activated.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:50 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data sheet 
states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and the 
quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to me 
because the data states that there is no specific distance below the ceiling, 
just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to defector distance to 
the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no info on what is 
the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to heat build up from the 
ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different about the fusible element 
that makes its activation time so different from the standard glass bulb I 
wonder?



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[John Drucker]

Guys,

Its important to note that 2006 IBC 704.12 Exception requires that the
building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system in
accordance with NFPA-13.

That's really big. I've received applications for limited area window
protection, 13R window protection and so forth and that's simply not
permitted.  In order to use the exception at 704.12 a complete NFPA-13
(2002) sprinkler system must be provided.

John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ)
Red Bank, NJ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John
Drucker
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:42 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

2006 IBC 704.12 provides for exterior window opening utilizing a water
curtain.  Exception - Opening protectives are not required where the
building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system and
the exterior openings are protected by an approved water curtain using
automatic sprinklers approved for that use. The sprinklers and the
water curtain shall be installed in accordance with section 903.3.1.1
(NFPA13) and shall have an automatic water supply and fire department
connection.

The Tyco/Central WS for example is a listed window sprinkler. ICC ES
Legacy Report NER-516 provides specific instructions on the application
of window sprinklers including but not limited glazing, frames, non
bearing walls, etc. The complete report can be downloaded/read at; 
 
http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/NES/NER516.pdf
 
John Drucker


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:28 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used
to establish any other rated assembly.   A test fire is built on one
side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then
there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the
same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is
jetted against the subject and it can't fail.  I think your assumption
is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s)
flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler
protection) would occur within the first minutes.  Once the minimum
water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last
as long as the water is flowing.  Does this sound logical?

Bill Brooks

William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell

 Original Message 
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers
From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Ah, Gotcha

Bill Minkel, Designer
Dallas, TX
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is
there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller
orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence
Window Sprinkler Lite

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2
hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour?

Bill Minkel,

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

The what if was in regard to Steve Laytons' post about  during which
water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. If the window is
hot and hit with a hose stream before the sprinkler activates will the
glass fail?

It just seems like it would be good to know how long it would take to
activate a WS with no ceiling above using the same size fire as the one
hour or two hour burn test.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:24 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

If that happens what's the problem?

If FD is on the scene and attacking the fire then most likely occupants
are out, hose streams are in play and sprinklers at the glass are a
non-issue.  What about the other sprinklers, are they active?


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Russell]

Rated glass walls have been used for ages but the Tyco window sprinkler is
fairly new so I've been wondering what has been done in the past to address
this issue architecturally wise. I called an architect and questioned him on
it. He said that a long time ago one could use wire glass. Now he uses
either a fire shutter system or the fire rated glass. The rated glass is
seldom a chose due to it's cost.

The input about the activation time scenarios that was posted makes a lot of
sense. Thanks.



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Chris Cahill]

You mean you received applications for limited area window
protection, 13R window protection and so forth for exterior window
applications?  That's fine but the WS for the application Russ is talking
about is not an exterior application.  There should be no reason the WS
heads couldn't be used in an otherwise unsprinklered building. It passed the
same test as every other 2 hr rated wall listed in the UL directory. 

The cut sheet supports this in Based on this successful testing, the
Model WS Specific Application Window Sprinkler can be used as interior
protection of windows or glazing in a sprinklered building or
non-sprinklered building.  

I just wanted to be clear your rejection seems appropriate for exterior
applications because of the specific language in 704.12 but a rejection
would not be expected in an interior application where 2 hr sheetrock wall
would be acceptable with or without a building sprinkler.  

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:44 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: FW: Window Sprinklers

 
Guys,

Its important to note that 2006 IBC 704.12 Exception requires that the
building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system in
accordance with NFPA-13.

That's really big. I've received applications for limited area window
protection, 13R window protection and so forth and that's simply not
permitted.  In order to use the exception at 704.12 a complete NFPA-13
(2002) sprinkler system must be provided.

John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ)
Red Bank, NJ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John
Drucker
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:42 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

2006 IBC 704.12 provides for exterior window opening utilizing a water
curtain.  Exception - Opening protectives are not required where the
building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system and
the exterior openings are protected by an approved water curtain using
automatic sprinklers approved for that use. The sprinklers and the
water curtain shall be installed in accordance with section 903.3.1.1
(NFPA13) and shall have an automatic water supply and fire department
connection.

The Tyco/Central WS for example is a listed window sprinkler. ICC ES
Legacy Report NER-516 provides specific instructions on the application
of window sprinklers including but not limited glazing, frames, non
bearing walls, etc. The complete report can be downloaded/read at; 
 
http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/NES/NER516.pdf
 
John Drucker


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:28 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used
to establish any other rated assembly.   A test fire is built on one
side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then
there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the
same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is
jetted against the subject and it can't fail.  I think your assumption
is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s)
flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler
protection) would occur within the first minutes.  Once the minimum
water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last
as long as the water is flowing.  Does this sound logical?

Bill Brooks

William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3032 FAX
412-400-6528 Cell

 Original Message 
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers
From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Ah, Gotcha

Bill Minkel, Designer
Dallas, TX
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is
there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2

RE: Window Sprinklers

[Steve Leyton]

If I'm not mistaken, these sprinklers have been on market for 10 years
or more, so new isn't the word that jumps to mind.  

We have used these sprinklers on windows that head off at or near the
ceiling.  In that case and especially if it's a hard lid, we can
furr/frame down a soffit or fatten the header to accommodate the piping
the feeds the sprinkler(s).  If there's a lot of lintel showing, we've
worked with the architect to hang or furr-out a panel or some other sort
of architectural feater.   You can run piping horizontally off the face
of the wall and conceal it with a valance.  We did a luxury condo
high-rise of poured-in-place construction where we had to expose the
piping that fed the window sprinklers and they created hardwood valances
to conceal the piping; it actually enhance the appearance of the rooms.
If you're in a framed wall, fatten it or a portion to 2x8 or stagger the
studs and make room for the sprinklers that way.   Infinite number of
ways to solve this, really.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Rated glass walls have been used for ages but the Tyco window sprinkler
is
fairly new so I've been wondering what has been done in the past to
address
this issue architecturally wise. I called an architect and questioned
him on
it. He said that a long time ago one could use wire glass. Now he uses
either a fire shutter system or the fire rated glass. The rated glass is
seldom a chose due to it's cost.

The input about the activation time scenarios that was posted makes a
lot of
sense. Thanks.



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

If the head never actuates the glass won't fail?

I am amazed that with all of the belt and suspenders stuff in NFPA and
UL that it was assumed the head would operate in a timely manner. If
the information in this thread is accurate it proves the WS works well
as an open deluge nozzle, not necessarily as an automatic sprinkler.
The articulate criteria for placement appears to be solely driven by the
need to fully wet the entire surface of the glass.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:08 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The obvious answer would be heat that directly threatens the glass; a
sprinkler could react directly to heat on the same side or to heat
radiated from the other side.   If it's not hot enough at the window to
operate the sprinkler, the presumption is that it's not hot enough to
threaten the integrity of the glass, hence the requirement for tempered
glass.   Check the data sheet for dimensional criteria for placement -
it's pretty articulate.  Distances toward/away from the glass and
deflector position from top of glazing are all clearly shown in
elevation and plan views.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:50 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data
sheet
states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and
the
quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to
me
because the data states that there is no specific distance below the
ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to
defector
distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no
info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to
heat
build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different
about
the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the
standard glass bulb I wonder?



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Craig.Prahl]

The Tyco head is specifically listed to provide protection equivalent to a two 
hour rated assembly.  So if the corridor is a rated exit corridor then you need 
to use the Tyco head to maintain the integrity of the separation.  There is no 
equivalent rating for sprinklering a window with just an average sidewall head. 
 For non-rated separations you could use a standard window/cornice head on the 
glass.




Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:21 AM
To: AFSA
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility.
Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the 
corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am installing 
sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of  6' spacing.
Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes or 
standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of a 
requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an 
$80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me 
concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.





Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

If the AHJ will approve closely spaced sprinklers you should be okay.
The Tyco window sprinkler has some severe limitations like no horizontal
mullions which translates to no doors.

Just because a sprinkler is UL Listed for an application it doesn't mean
it's the only thing that can be used. We at the office have often
discussed submitting a line of sprinklers to UL for testing and sending
along a tanker truck of water from phoenix for the test. We would then
have the only sprinkler UL Listed with Phoenix water. Following the
window sprinkler logic everyone would have to buy our sprinkler if they
did work in Phoenix. (lol)

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:21 AM
To: AFSA
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational
facility.
Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of
the
corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am
installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of  6'
spacing.
Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in
codes
or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone
know of
a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to
use an
$80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes
me
concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.



 

Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Chris Cahill]

Cause there is nothing in the code that I am aware of that gives a rating
with ordinary sprinklers at any spacing.  The 6' comes in about openings in
floors and as an alternate in the atriums.  These are two specific
situations addressed but not a general 1 hr rating.  The floor opening has
nothing to do with ratings and the atrium needed a solution to rating before
the development of the Tyco heads once code officials decided to allow
multiple floors to be connected without a traditional rating.  

Tyco heads are listed and tested to the same standard as other rated
construction methods for ratings.  It's the same test for sheetrock and
concrete.  If you have a corridor that requires a rating Tyco heads are the
only code complying solution I am aware of if using sprinklers. 

And to Craig's comment if it's unrated then you don't need any sprinklers on
the glass.  

Of course standard note and discussion point regarding a contractor choosing
methods of rating vs. the architect and engineer who should have specified
methods.

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:21 AM
To: AFSA
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility.
Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the
corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am
installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of  6' spacing.
Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes
or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of
a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an
$80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me
concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.



 

Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Scott A. Futrell]

The Tyco limitations are because that is what is required to keep the
glass intact, make the sprinkler work properly, and ensure the wall
rating.  If it is designed, installed, approved, and accepted
incorrectly it is still wrong regardless of what the AHJ approves. With
all due respect Ron, you won't be okay if something goes wrong and you
haven't used the Tyco sprinkler given that it is available for this
specific application and the information in the thread below including
Chris' input.

Scott   

(763) 425-1001 Office 
(612) 759-5556 Cell 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher,
Ron
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

If the AHJ will approve closely spaced sprinklers you should be okay.
The Tyco window sprinkler has some severe limitations like no horizontal
mullions which translates to no doors.

Just because a sprinkler is UL Listed for an application it doesn't mean
it's the only thing that can be used. We at the office have often
discussed submitting a line of sprinklers to UL for testing and sending
along a tanker truck of water from phoenix for the test. We would then
have the only sprinkler UL Listed with Phoenix water. Following the
window sprinkler logic everyone would have to buy our sprinkler if they
did work in Phoenix. (lol)

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:21 AM
To: AFSA
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational
facility.
Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of
the
corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am
installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of  6'
spacing.
Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in
codes
or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone
know of
a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to
use an
$80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes
me
concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.



 

Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Craig.Prahl]

Be careful, if the AHJ approves something that is an incorrect application as 
you suggest, you share responsible for the incorrect application too, not just 
him.  Make sure that what you choose meets code and is correct for the 
particular situation.  Can you defend your installation or design beyond a 
shadow of a doubt per the equipment listing, Codes and Standards published and 
adopted by the jurisdiction and industry?

Just getting an AHJ to sign off doesn't absolve the engineer or contractor from 
his responsibility to provide an approved system.

While there may be other options which may be equal, you need to be able to 
prove they are equal.  Forget logic, gut feelings and good old fashioned horse 
sense, you've got to be able to prove it.




Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

If the AHJ will approve closely spaced sprinklers you should be okay.
The Tyco window sprinkler has some severe limitations like no horizontal 
mullions which translates to no doors.

Just because a sprinkler is UL Listed for an application it doesn't mean it's 
the only thing that can be used. We at the office have often discussed 
submitting a line of sprinklers to UL for testing and sending along a tanker 
truck of water from phoenix for the test. We would then have the only sprinkler 
UL Listed with Phoenix water. Following the window sprinkler logic everyone 
would have to buy our sprinkler if they did work in Phoenix. (lol)

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:21 AM
To: AFSA
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility.
Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the 
corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am installing 
sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of  6'
spacing.
Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes or 
standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of a 
requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an 
$80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me 
concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.





Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

Chris hits on the heart of the matter. What did the architect/engineer
intend to use to achieve the rating on the glass wall? We are working on
a project with a rated glass wall with doors. The plans indicate a
water curtain with closely spaced sprinklers so that's what we are
doing.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris
Cahill
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:03 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Cause there is nothing in the code that I am aware of that gives a
rating
with ordinary sprinklers at any spacing.  The 6' comes in about openings
in
floors and as an alternate in the atriums.  These are two specific
situations addressed but not a general 1 hr rating.  The floor opening
has
nothing to do with ratings and the atrium needed a solution to rating
before
the development of the Tyco heads once code officials decided to allow
multiple floors to be connected without a traditional rating.  

Tyco heads are listed and tested to the same standard as other rated
construction methods for ratings.  It's the same test for sheetrock and
concrete.  If you have a corridor that requires a rating Tyco heads are
the
only code complying solution I am aware of if using sprinklers. 

And to Craig's comment if it's unrated then you don't need any
sprinklers on
the glass.  

Of course standard note and discussion point regarding a contractor
choosing
methods of rating vs. the architect and engineer who should have
specified
methods.

Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
 
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
 
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
 
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:21 AM
To: AFSA
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational
facility.
Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of
the
corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am
installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of  6'
spacing.
Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in
codes
or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone
know of
a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to
use an
$80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes
me
concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.



 

Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

It's permitted this way so what's a fellow to do? Tell the
Architect/Engineer, Building Department, Fire Department and owner that
they have to eliminate the doors and horizontal mullions from 80 ft. of
glass wall? And by the way, the next time you want to use a glass wall
you have to check with Tyco?

By the time we find out about the rated glass wall all the permits are
issued and construction has begun. It's probably a little too late to
architecturally redesign the entire lobby area.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott A.
Futrell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The Tyco limitations are because that is what is required to keep the
glass intact, make the sprinkler work properly, and ensure the wall
rating.  If it is designed, installed, approved, and accepted
incorrectly it is still wrong regardless of what the AHJ approves. With
all due respect Ron, you won't be okay if something goes wrong and you
haven't used the Tyco sprinkler given that it is available for this
specific application and the information in the thread below including
Chris' input.

Scott   

(763) 425-1001 Office 
(612) 759-5556 Cell 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher,
Ron
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

If the AHJ will approve closely spaced sprinklers you should be okay.
The Tyco window sprinkler has some severe limitations like no horizontal
mullions which translates to no doors.

Just because a sprinkler is UL Listed for an application it doesn't mean
it's the only thing that can be used. We at the office have often
discussed submitting a line of sprinklers to UL for testing and sending
along a tanker truck of water from phoenix for the test. We would then
have the only sprinkler UL Listed with Phoenix water. Following the
window sprinkler logic everyone would have to buy our sprinkler if they
did work in Phoenix. (lol)

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:21 AM
To: AFSA
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational
facility.
Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of
the
corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am
installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of  6'
spacing.
Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in
codes
or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone
know of
a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to
use an
$80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes
me
concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.



 

Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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RE: Window Sprinklers

[R Richardson]

That is how we do it in Seattle, just as Chris says.

Rich Richardson
Seattle Fire Department

 Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/30/2008 06:58 
Let me see if I understand Chris, from an architectural standpoint, the
glass wall is not a rated wall unless the Tyco sprinkler is used?


Cause there is nothing in the code that I am aware of that gives a rating
with ordinary sprinklers at any spacing.


If you have a corridor that requires a rating Tyco heads are the
only code complying solution I am aware of if using sprinklers. 

Chris Cahill, P.E.



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Russell]

Let me see if I understand Chris, from an architectural standpoint, the
glass wall is not a rated wall unless the Tyco sprinkler is used?


Cause there is nothing in the code that I am aware of that gives a rating
with ordinary sprinklers at any spacing.


If you have a corridor that requires a rating Tyco heads are the
only code complying solution I am aware of if using sprinklers. 

Chris Cahill, P.E.



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Craig.Prahl]

No, what he's saying is that there are no other heads designed for protecting 
windows/glass walls that are listed and tested to provide the equivalent 
protection of a 2 hour fire resistant wall.

Like it or not, so far only Tyco has such a head.




Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Let me see if I understand Chris, from an architectural standpoint, the glass 
wall is not a rated wall unless the Tyco sprinkler is used?


Cause there is nothing in the code that I am aware of that gives a rating with 
ordinary sprinklers at any spacing.


If you have a corridor that requires a rating Tyco heads are the only code 
complying solution I am aware of if using sprinklers.

Chris Cahill, P.E.



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Craig.Prahl]

A smart architect would have known there are limitations on windows and glazing 
in rated construction.   He should have been asking some questions before just 
drawing up a drawing and saying make it so.


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:55 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

It's permitted this way so what's a fellow to do? Tell the Architect/Engineer, 
Building Department, Fire Department and owner that they have to eliminate the 
doors and horizontal mullions from 80 ft. of glass wall? And by the way, the 
next time you want to use a glass wall you have to check with Tyco?

By the time we find out about the rated glass wall all the permits are issued 
and construction has begun. It's probably a little too late to architecturally 
redesign the entire lobby area.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott A.
Futrell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The Tyco limitations are because that is what is required to keep the glass 
intact, make the sprinkler work properly, and ensure the wall rating.  If it is 
designed, installed, approved, and accepted incorrectly it is still wrong 
regardless of what the AHJ approves. With all due respect Ron, you won't be 
okay if something goes wrong and you haven't used the Tyco sprinkler given that 
it is available for this specific application and the information in the thread 
below including Chris' input.

Scott

(763) 425-1001 Office
(612) 759-5556 Cell


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

If the AHJ will approve closely spaced sprinklers you should be okay.
The Tyco window sprinkler has some severe limitations like no horizontal 
mullions which translates to no doors.

Just because a sprinkler is UL Listed for an application it doesn't mean it's 
the only thing that can be used. We at the office have often discussed 
submitting a line of sprinklers to UL for testing and sending along a tanker 
truck of water from phoenix for the test. We would then have the only sprinkler 
UL Listed with Phoenix water. Following the window sprinkler logic everyone 
would have to buy our sprinkler if they did work in Phoenix. (lol)

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:21 AM
To: AFSA
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility.
Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the 
corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am installing 
sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of  6'
spacing.
Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes or 
standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of a 
requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an 
$80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me 
concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler.

Any input will be greatly appreciated.





Russell Rewis

Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.

107C Hemlock Street

Valdosta, Georgia 31601

229-244-8130

[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Russell]

listed
Craig L. Prahl, CET

listed appears to be the key word here.
I just received a phone call from a representative of Tyco and in essence
this sprinkler is better technology and is an option and not mandatory.

Thank everyone for your response to my post. As usual they are a great help.


Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Fletcher, Ron]

Russell,

Just curious, are there any doors or horizontal mullions in the wall?

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Let me see if I understand Chris, from an architectural standpoint, the
glass wall is not a rated wall unless the Tyco sprinkler is used?


Cause there is nothing in the code that I am aware of that gives a
rating
with ordinary sprinklers at any spacing.


If you have a corridor that requires a rating Tyco heads are the
only code complying solution I am aware of if using sprinklers. 

Chris Cahill, P.E.



Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Craig.Prahl]

That's correct, not mandatory but an excellent and tested item.

So as long as you can prove that your sprinkler protection of the glazing 
provides a fire resistant rating equal to that of the wall, you're good to go.




Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:21 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

listed
Craig L. Prahl, CET

listed appears to be the key word here.
I just received a phone call from a representative of Tyco and in essence this 
sprinkler is better technology and is an option and not mandatory.

Thank everyone for your response to my post. As usual they are a great help.


Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Russell]

Ron, there are vertical mullions spaced at 4' and one door. There are no
details or interior elevations for this wall so this is all the info I have
without contacting the architect which is my next step.

Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Just curious, are there any doors or horizontal mullions in the wall?

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ



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Re: Window Sprinklers

[Roland Huggins]

Well actually there is ONE reference in the codes for using spray  
sprinklers and glass.  It is in NFPA 101 - Life Safety Code under  
Atriums and applies to a 1 hr separation.  The trick there is ensuring  
the set-up is  wetting the entire surface.  From this humble  
beginning, it has been a common practice to apply it elsewhere.


Roland

On Sep 30, 2008, at 6:02 AM, Chris Cahill wrote:

Cause there is nothing in the code that I am aware of that gives a  
rating
with ordinary sprinklers at any spacing.  The 6' comes in about  
openings in

floors and as an alternate in the atriums.  These are two specific
situations addressed but not a general 1 hr rating.  The floor  
opening has
nothing to do with ratings and the atrium needed a solution to  
rating before

the development of the Tyco heads once code officials decided to allow
multiple floors to be connected without a traditional rating.

Tyco heads are listed and tested to the same standard as other rated
construction methods for ratings.  It's the same test for sheetrock  
and
concrete.  If you have a corridor that requires a rating Tyco heads  
are the

only code complying solution I am aware of if using sprinklers.

And to Craig's comment if it's unrated then you don't need any  
sprinklers on

the glass.

Of course standard note and discussion point regarding a contractor  
choosing
methods of rating vs. the architect and engineer who should have  
specified

methods.

Chris Cahill, P.E.


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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Chris Cahill]

Well if it's not mandatory could someone provide the code reference to
another solution for a RATED GLASS WALL?  We know how to do unrated and know
how to do non-glass.  

Chris 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:27 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

That's correct, not mandatory but an excellent and tested item.

So as long as you can prove that your sprinkler protection of the glazing
provides a fire resistant rating equal to that of the wall, you're good to
go.




Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:21 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

listed
Craig L. Prahl, CET

listed appears to be the key word here.
I just received a phone call from a representative of Tyco and in essence
this sprinkler is better technology and is an option and not mandatory.

Thank everyone for your response to my post. As usual they are a great help.


Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Steve Leyton]

A HA!!!   That's the point, isn't it?  That the architect failed to
completely design the building and account for the protection of windows
and likely, the limitations of the window sprinklers in terms of
mullions, doors, etc., etc.   And the fact that they just waved the
magic sprinkler wand at the condition with a note means that they've
deferred the PROBLEM, but not necessarily the solution.

Along this thread, it was asked where, in NFPA  13, this is addressed
and it isn't.   The Tyco WS is a patented, specific application
sprinkler that, when installed in accordance with its relatively lengthy
and articulate listing criteria, can be used to achieve protection of up
to 2 hours on rated glass.   Where it says that is in its listing and in
what's known as the ICC Evaluation Service, or ICC-ES.   I believe it's
public domain and that you can surf the site whether or not you're an
ICC member, but if you track down ICC-ES report #NER-516, you'll find
that it puts the product into context of how it should be applied per
the building code.   

As a consultant, I try to program the use of window sprinklers as early
as possible in the process.   They can be thirsty hydraulically,
especially if you have a lot of them in the design area like a
conference room or showroom application where there's more than one side
of the compartment in the design area.  They have very particular
spacing requirements and they are best designed in close coordination
with the architect because usually there will be some means of
concealing the sprinklers for aesthetic purposes, as with a valance.
And you have to account for window coverings and the type of joints,
mullions, etc., etc.And it's the ARCHITECT'S responsibility to
foresee all of this, which they usually don't.

I would strongly recommend downloading both the ICC-ES report and the
Tyco PDS from their web site and carefully reviewing all the conditions
of installation before you bid and ultimately take ownership of this
design.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher,
Ron
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:55 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

It's permitted this way so what's a fellow to do? Tell the
Architect/Engineer, Building Department, Fire Department and owner that
they have to eliminate the doors and horizontal mullions from 80 ft. of
glass wall? And by the way, the next time you want to use a glass wall
you have to check with Tyco?

By the time we find out about the rated glass wall all the permits are
issued and construction has begun. It's probably a little too late to
architecturally redesign the entire lobby area.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott A.
Futrell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The Tyco limitations are because that is what is required to keep the
glass intact, make the sprinkler work properly, and ensure the wall
rating.  If it is designed, installed, approved, and accepted
incorrectly it is still wrong regardless of what the AHJ approves. With
all due respect Ron, you won't be okay if something goes wrong and you
haven't used the Tyco sprinkler given that it is available for this
specific application and the information in the thread below including
Chris' input.

Scott   

(763) 425-1001 Office 
(612) 759-5556 Cell 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher,
Ron
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

If the AHJ will approve closely spaced sprinklers you should be okay.
The Tyco window sprinkler has some severe limitations like no horizontal
mullions which translates to no doors.

Just because a sprinkler is UL Listed for an application it doesn't mean
it's the only thing that can be used. We at the office have often
discussed submitting a line of sprinklers to UL for testing and sending
along a tanker truck of water from phoenix for the test. We would then
have the only sprinkler UL Listed with Phoenix water. Following the
window sprinkler logic everyone would have to buy our sprinkler if they
did work in Phoenix. (lol)

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:21 AM
To: AFSA
Subject: Window Sprinklers

Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational
facility.
Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of
the
corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am
installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of  6'
spacing.
Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly

RE: Window Sprinklers

[Steve Leyton]

???  Actually, the only ways that I'm aware of are to use rated glass -
VERY expensive - or window sprinklers.   If you don't protect them,
there's a limit to the maximum percentage of rated wall area that can be
glazed openings, depending on whether it's one or two hours.  Otherwise,
to make an all-glass wall you would have to use sprinklers or rated
glass block or glazing.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris
Cahill
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:46 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

Well if it's not mandatory could someone provide the code reference to
another solution for a RATED GLASS WALL?  We know how to do unrated and
know
how to do non-glass.  

Chris 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:27 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

That's correct, not mandatory but an excellent and tested item.

So as long as you can prove that your sprinkler protection of the
glazing
provides a fire resistant rating equal to that of the wall, you're good
to
go.




Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:21 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

listed
Craig L. Prahl, CET

listed appears to be the key word here.
I just received a phone call from a representative of Tyco and in
essence
this sprinkler is better technology and is an option and not mandatory.

Thank everyone for your response to my post. As usual they are a great
help.


Russell Rewis
Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc.
107C Hemlock Street
Valdosta, Georgia 31601
229-244-8130
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Steve Leyton]

I misspoke - I should have said that it can be used to obtain up to a
two-hour rating on TEMPERED, not rated glass.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:54 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

A HA!!!   That's the point, isn't it?  That the architect failed to
completely design the building and account for the protection of windows
and likely, the limitations of the window sprinklers in terms of
mullions, doors, etc., etc.   And the fact that they just waved the
magic sprinkler wand at the condition with a note means that they've
deferred the PROBLEM, but not necessarily the solution.

Along this thread, it was asked where, in NFPA  13, this is addressed
and it isn't.   The Tyco WS is a patented, specific application
sprinkler that, when installed in accordance with its relatively lengthy
and articulate listing criteria, can be used to achieve protection of up
to 2 hours on rated glass.   Where it says that is in its listing and in
what's known as the ICC Evaluation Service, or ICC-ES.   I believe it's
public domain and that you can surf the site whether or not you're an
ICC member, but if you track down ICC-ES report #NER-516, you'll find
that it puts the product into context of how it should be applied per
the building code.   

As a consultant, I try to program the use of window sprinklers as early
as possible in the process.   They can be thirsty hydraulically,
especially if you have a lot of them in the design area like a
conference room or showroom application where there's more than one side
of the compartment in the design area.  They have very particular
spacing requirements and they are best designed in close coordination
with the architect because usually there will be some means of
concealing the sprinklers for aesthetic purposes, as with a valance.
And you have to account for window coverings and the type of joints,
mullions, etc., etc.And it's the ARCHITECT'S responsibility to
foresee all of this, which they usually don't.

I would strongly recommend downloading both the ICC-ES report and the
Tyco PDS from their web site and carefully reviewing all the conditions
of installation before you bid and ultimately take ownership of this
design.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design  Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher,
Ron
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:55 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

It's permitted this way so what's a fellow to do? Tell the
Architect/Engineer, Building Department, Fire Department and owner that
they have to eliminate the doors and horizontal mullions from 80 ft. of
glass wall? And by the way, the next time you want to use a glass wall
you have to check with Tyco?

By the time we find out about the rated glass wall all the permits are
issued and construction has begun. It's probably a little too late to
architecturally redesign the entire lobby area.

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott A.
Futrell
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

The Tyco limitations are because that is what is required to keep the
glass intact, make the sprinkler work properly, and ensure the wall
rating.  If it is designed, installed, approved, and accepted
incorrectly it is still wrong regardless of what the AHJ approves. With
all due respect Ron, you won't be okay if something goes wrong and you
haven't used the Tyco sprinkler given that it is available for this
specific application and the information in the thread below including
Chris' input.

Scott   

(763) 425-1001 Office 
(612) 759-5556 Cell 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher,
Ron
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers

If the AHJ will approve closely spaced sprinklers you should be okay.
The Tyco window sprinkler has some severe limitations like no horizontal
mullions which translates to no doors.

Just because a sprinkler is UL Listed for an application it doesn't mean
it's the only thing that can be used. We at the office have often
discussed submitting a line of sprinklers to UL for testing and sending
along a tanker truck of water from phoenix for the test. We would then
have the only sprinkler UL Listed with Phoenix water. Following the
window sprinkler logic everyone would have to buy our sprinkler if they
did work in Phoenix. (lol)

Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell
Sent: Tuesday