RE: Residential systems in California
I'd assume when the fitter's liability insurance or assets are depleted- if they're even sought in subrogation- then the liability reverts back to where it now resides- a well-insured CONTRACTING FIRM. So what was the point? We need to make sure we assure quality when we institute QC programs. Handing out fitter licenses to everyone with a card or that's graduated from (or is enrolled in)an apprenticeship course, or who's been hanging pipe right or wrong for 5 years, doesn't insure quality. I think we see how well the QC by PEs producing contract documents that have fatal errors in them, despite established state licensing laws, is proof of the state's ability to perform QC. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:47 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California I can understand both sides of the issue but would have to agree with Rod. If the contractor is licensed it gives a better point of accountability. When the installer is licensed and screws up a guy making $5-$8 a year is penalized. This leaves the old well he did it so im cool mentality in play. Where as if the contractor is licensed you now have 30 to 40 employees all making different salaries affected by the screw up.. So now everyones job is at stake if there is a bad screw up, so everyone looks out for everyone. Thus making the quality of the system better therefore providing better life safety for the rest of America. I have had to be a part of the licensing of the contractor for several years and the accountability makes people pay attention. A friend of mine works in an area where the fitter has to be licensed and he says they always have trouble finding people and keeping them, therefore causing business to suffer. Unions have there place most definately but licensing of the company is in my opinion more effective. Rod how is Jesse doing up there in Casper Wy? Jeremy S. Blocker Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness. --James Thurber From: Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:59:45 PM Subject: RE: Residential systems in California I know you are not specifically saying to be pro union but let me promise you that fitter licensing is the first step. Even if it ends there it usually has very negative consequences. The union WILL try and use it to their advantage. This is not hypothetical it has happened in many places. Let me copy a quote from my friend Micheal Winiecki who along with his father Frank and many others in 417's jurisdiction have lived it. Michael Winiecki, president of General Sprinkler Corp., Maplewood, Minn., states, The long-term price we have paid since fitter licensing has been enacted is that our business growth and development has suffered. From AFSA's white paper on the issue. It is not sprinkler fitters that need to be licensed, it is the fire sprinkler contractor who is ultimately responsible for the quality of the installation. It is the fire sprinkler contractor who should be licensed to install fire sprinkler systems, and licensing of contractors must be based upon competency in order to be effective. Can you imagine the embarrassment to the industry if we finally win this battle only to have a shortage of licensed fitters to do the job? It is the contractor that needs to have qualified, competent oversight as they are the ones who are ultimately responsible. I understand that you are coming from a position of using the licensing to our advantage and ice the plumbers out but I don't believe that is the approach that will work. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California I'm not saying be pro-union. I'm saying pro-license. Plumbers have it to their advantage. A friend of mine was fined $ 2,000 a few years ago for installing a backflow on a sprinkler system! It required a lucensed plumber. Otherwise what steve said will come to pass: plumbers will control the residential market. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:54:59 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Well Forest I respect everybody's right to have their opinion and I have agreed with you many times on this forum but on this one my answer would not be no; but HELL NO. Don't have time to defend my opinion right now but will be glad to engage later. I don't know your age or history
Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing
I have never run a contracting firm, but the whole issue of licensing includes not just fitters and contractors, but engineers, designers and even driving. Most licenses can only be obtained after a certain skill level is reached and demonstrated. This gives us a benchmark on how to judge a person's experience and understanding. It also shows a person's level of dedication to the field if they have gone through that process to get licensed. If you are looking to hire a fitter, who has more credibility; the with 15 years of experience and has a license, or someone who just has 15 years of experience? The license gives definition. Was I any smarter the day after I took the PE exam than the day before? Not appreciably. But I now had more credibility. Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing
Todd, that depends if the fitter had 5 yrs experience 3x or if he had 15 years experience. I'm sure during plan review you've shaken your head over what NICET 3's send out. I saw one where the areas outside the dwelling unit in #13r were residential- including the mechanical room and the owner's archives. That ain't right, but they have the signature of a Level 3. And I just got a copy of another competitor's dwg with a nice little NICET Seal in the title block, as if this makes em a Jr PE or something. Anyone familiar with NICET should know decades ago they banned the use of PE-seal lookalikes. Considering NICET is located in the NSPE's HQ in Alexandria, that's not a surprise. Mow if a state actually requires passing a test, well, that's a step in the right direction. Grandfathering everyone is like giving everyone in High School a diploma if they change the curriculum. They were here, so they must be students competent to hold a diploma, right? Well, that's the logic of grandfathering everyone. They've been hanging pipe for years, so we assume they know how to do it correctly. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing I have never run a contracting firm, but the whole issue of licensing includes not just fitters and contractors, but engineers, designers and even driving. Most licenses can only be obtained after a certain skill level is reached and demonstrated. This gives us a benchmark on how to judge a person's experience and understanding. It also shows a person's level of dedication to the field if they have gone through that process to get licensed. If you are looking to hire a fitter, who has more credibility; the with 15 years of experience and has a license, or someone who just has 15 years of experience? The license gives definition. Was I any smarter the day after I took the PE exam than the day before? Not appreciably. But I now had more credibility. Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing
In Washington we got the licensing crammed down our throats but the administration is in the hands of the State FM. Everyone will be tested as well as have to show proof of experience. Not the best world but a decent compromise. So we have licensing/certification for installers/trainees, designers, NFPA 25 inspectors, contractors, but still not for plan reviewers or AHJ inspectors. Everybody has to meet uniform criteria and so far no group gets any special grandfathering apart from temporary certifications so that work can continue during transitions. These temporary certifications have sunset dates and require re-certification annually until the sunset date. Re-certification also requires the holder proving that he is working to meet the criteria for permanent status. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:57 AM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: Todd, that depends if the fitter had 5 yrs experience 3x or if he had 15 years experience. I'm sure during plan review you've shaken your head over what NICET 3's send out. I saw one where the areas outside the dwelling unit in #13r were residential- including the mechanical room and the owner's archives. That ain't right, but they have the signature of a Level 3. And I just got a copy of another competitor's dwg with a nice little NICET Seal in the title block, as if this makes em a Jr PE or something. Anyone familiar with NICET should know decades ago they banned the use of PE-seal lookalikes. Considering NICET is located in the NSPE's HQ in Alexandria, that's not a surprise. Mow if a state actually requires passing a test, well, that's a step in the right direction. Grandfathering everyone is like giving everyone in High School a diploma if they change the curriculum. They were here, so they must be students competent to hold a diploma, right? Well, that's the logic of grandfathering everyone. They've been hanging pipe for years, so we assume they know how to do it correctly. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing I have never run a contracting firm, but the whole issue of licensing includes not just fitters and contractors, but engineers, designers and even driving. Most licenses can only be obtained after a certain skill level is reached and demonstrated. This gives us a benchmark on how to judge a person's experience and understanding. It also shows a person's level of dedication to the field if they have gone through that process to get licensed. If you are looking to hire a fitter, who has more credibility; the with 15 years of experience and has a license, or someone who just has 15 years of experience? The license gives definition. Was I any smarter the day after I took the PE exam than the day before? Not appreciably. But I now had more credibility. Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing
One of the biggest problems I HAVE WITH Lic. of fitter's is, where is the accountability? Dev. Colo.Spg. And Fort Collins require lic. fitters on their projects, and the state is looking at a similar requirement. So a fitter screws up something the AHj tested him on, is he required to fix it on his dime? Is he required to be bonded? And if the AHJ pulls his Lic. for his short comings, do you have the right to fire him? I think everyone knows the answers. Individual is never liable, it's always the company. So he fixes his mistakes on your dime. Plumbers are bonded, why not fitters? (Because usually the master plumber that holds the Co. lic. is bonded, not every employee. So once again management pays Under most state laws loss of a Lic. is not grounds for firing. (But you may be able to make him a Helper since he no longer hold the Lic.) So what did anyone gain from this exercise in futile rulemaking? (Mo Govoment Gone Wild!!) Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing In Washington we got the licensing crammed down our throats but the administration is in the hands of the State FM. Everyone will be tested as well as have to show proof of experience. Not the best world but a decent compromise. So we have licensing/certification for installers/trainees, designers, NFPA 25 inspectors, contractors, but still not for plan reviewers or AHJ inspectors. Everybody has to meet uniform criteria and so far no group gets any special grandfathering apart from temporary certifications so that work can continue during transitions. These temporary certifications have sunset dates and require re-certification annually until the sunset date. Re-certification also requires the holder proving that he is working to meet the criteria for permanent status. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing
Wa is granddathering in with proof of experience for a limited time. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:27:35 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing In Washington we got the licensing crammed down our throats but the administration is in the hands of the State FM. Everyone will be tested as well as have to show proof of experience. Not the best world but a decent compromise. So we have licensing/certification for installers/trainees, designers, NFPA 25 inspectors, contractors, but still not for plan reviewers or AHJ inspectors. Everybody has to meet uniform criteria and so far no group gets any special grandfathering apart from temporary certifications so that work can continue during transitions. These temporary certifications have sunset dates and require re-certification annually until the sunset date. Re-certification also requires the holder proving that he is working to meet the criteria for permanent status. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:57 AM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: Todd, that depends if the fitter had 5 yrs experience 3x or if he had 15 years experience. I'm sure during plan review you've shaken your head over what NICET 3's send out. I saw one where the areas outside the dwelling unit in #13r were residential- including the mechanical room and the owner's archives. That ain't right, but they have the signature of a Level 3. And I just got a copy of another competitor's dwg with a nice little NICET Seal in the title block, as if this makes em a Jr PE or something. Anyone familiar with NICET should know decades ago they banned the use of PE-seal lookalikes. Considering NICET is located in the NSPE's HQ in Alexandria, that's not a surprise. Mow if a state actually requires passing a test, well, that's a step in the right direction. Grandfathering everyone is like giving everyone in High School a diploma if they change the curriculum. They were here, so they must be students competent to hold a diploma, right? Well, that's the logic of grandfathering everyone. They've been hanging pipe for years, so we assume they know how to do it correctly. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing I have never run a contracting firm, but the whole issue of licensing includes not just fitters and contractors, but engineers, designers and even driving. Most licenses can only be obtained after a certain skill level is reached and demonstrated. This gives us a benchmark on how to judge a person's experience and understanding. It also shows a person's level of dedication to the field if they have gone through that process to get licensed. If you are looking to hire a fitter, who has more credibility; the with 15 years of experience and has a license, or someone who just has 15 years of experience? The license gives definition. Was I any smarter the day after I took the PE exam than the day before? Not appreciably. But I now had more credibility. Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing
And how many times have I shook my head over what FPEs and PEs and Contractors and designers and inspectors and plans reviewers and on and on have put out on the street for bid, for review for construction etc. I've lost count. You can't lump any one group by name into the realm of incompetent. Incompetence is non-discriminatory. It's everywhere with all kinds of fancy letters after the name and sadly it seems to be more of the norm now-a-days than the exception. But sometimes people just miss something and make a mistake. So that becomes an opportunity for education. I don't know anyone who knows everything there is to know about fire protection. I know a lot of people who know a lot but not everything. And staying a the Holiday Inn Express won't help. Tried it, with limited results. ;) Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:57 AM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: Todd, that depends if the fitter had 5 yrs experience 3x or if he had 15 years experience. I'm sure during plan review you've shaken your head over what NICET 3's send out. I saw one where the areas outside the dwelling unit in #13r were residential- including the mechanical room and the owner's archives. That ain't right, but they have the signature of a Level 3. And I just got a copy of another competitor's dwg with a nice little NICET Seal in the title block, as if this makes em a Jr PE or something. Anyone familiar with NICET should know decades ago they banned the use of PE-seal lookalikes. Considering NICET is located in the NSPE's HQ in Alexandria, that's not a surprise. Mow if a state actually requires passing a test, well, that's a step in the right direction. Grandfathering everyone is like giving everyone in High School a diploma if they change the curriculum. They were here, so they must be students competent to hold a diploma, right? Well, that's the logic of grandfathering everyone. They've been hanging pipe for years, so we assume they know how to do it correctly. glc ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing
The CA Chapters of AFSA are working on a new bill for our State. If anyone would like a draft, shoot me an email directly and I will forward a copy. I also have a copy of the CA Sprinkler Fitter Assn's (Union) draft proposal for this legislative session. T Terri Simmons Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING Ph: 858-751-2930 - ext. 101 Fax: 858-751-2933 Cell: 619-871-8450 When we share -- that is poetry in the prose of life. --Sigmund Freud -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing In Washington we got the licensing crammed down our throats but the administration is in the hands of the State FM. Everyone will be tested as well as have to show proof of experience. Not the best world but a decent compromise. So we have licensing/certification for installers/trainees, designers, NFPA 25 inspectors, contractors, but still not for plan reviewers or AHJ inspectors. Everybody has to meet uniform criteria and so far no group gets any special grandfathering apart from temporary certifications so that work can continue during transitions. These temporary certifications have sunset dates and require re-certification annually until the sunset date. Re-certification also requires the holder proving that he is working to meet the criteria for permanent status. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:57 AM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: Todd, that depends if the fitter had 5 yrs experience 3x or if he had 15 years experience. I'm sure during plan review you've shaken your head over what NICET 3's send out. I saw one where the areas outside the dwelling unit in #13r were residential- including the mechanical room and the owner's archives. That ain't right, but they have the signature of a Level 3. And I just got a copy of another competitor's dwg with a nice little NICET Seal in the title block, as if this makes em a Jr PE or something. Anyone familiar with NICET should know decades ago they banned the use of PE-seal lookalikes. Considering NICET is located in the NSPE's HQ in Alexandria, that's not a surprise. Mow if a state actually requires passing a test, well, that's a step in the right direction. Grandfathering everyone is like giving everyone in High School a diploma if they change the curriculum. They were here, so they must be students competent to hold a diploma, right? Well, that's the logic of grandfathering everyone. They've been hanging pipe for years, so we assume they know how to do it correctly. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing I have never run a contracting firm, but the whole issue of licensing includes not just fitters and contractors, but engineers, designers and even driving. Most licenses can only be obtained after a certain skill level is reached and demonstrated. This gives us a benchmark on how to judge a person's experience and understanding. It also shows a person's level of dedication to the field if they have gone through that process to get licensed. If you are looking to hire a fitter, who has more credibility; the with 15 years of experience and has a license, or someone who just has 15 years of experience? The license gives definition. Was I any smarter the day after I took the PE exam than the day before? Not appreciably. But I now had more credibility. Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32
RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing
Hi Terri, I would sure appreciate a copy of this as we are just starting here in SD. Thank You! Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Terri Leyton Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing The CA Chapters of AFSA are working on a new bill for our State. If anyone would like a draft, shoot me an email directly and I will forward a copy. I also have a copy of the CA Sprinkler Fitter Assn's (Union) draft proposal for this legislative session. T Terri Simmons Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING Ph: 858-751-2930 - ext. 101 Fax: 858-751-2933 Cell: 619-871-8450 When we share -- that is poetry in the prose of life. --Sigmund Freud -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing In Washington we got the licensing crammed down our throats but the administration is in the hands of the State FM. Everyone will be tested as well as have to show proof of experience. Not the best world but a decent compromise. So we have licensing/certification for installers/trainees, designers, NFPA 25 inspectors, contractors, but still not for plan reviewers or AHJ inspectors. Everybody has to meet uniform criteria and so far no group gets any special grandfathering apart from temporary certifications so that work can continue during transitions. These temporary certifications have sunset dates and require re-certification annually until the sunset date. Re-certification also requires the holder proving that he is working to meet the criteria for permanent status. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:57 AM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: Todd, that depends if the fitter had 5 yrs experience 3x or if he had 15 years experience. I'm sure during plan review you've shaken your head over what NICET 3's send out. I saw one where the areas outside the dwelling unit in #13r were residential- including the mechanical room and the owner's archives. That ain't right, but they have the signature of a Level 3. And I just got a copy of another competitor's dwg with a nice little NICET Seal in the title block, as if this makes em a Jr PE or something. Anyone familiar with NICET should know decades ago they banned the use of PE-seal lookalikes. Considering NICET is located in the NSPE's HQ in Alexandria, that's not a surprise. Mow if a state actually requires passing a test, well, that's a step in the right direction. Grandfathering everyone is like giving everyone in High School a diploma if they change the curriculum. They were here, so they must be students competent to hold a diploma, right? Well, that's the logic of grandfathering everyone. They've been hanging pipe for years, so we assume they know how to do it correctly. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing I have never run a contracting firm, but the whole issue of licensing includes not just fitters and contractors, but engineers, designers and even driving. Most licenses can only be obtained after a certain skill level is reached and demonstrated. This gives us a benchmark on how to judge a person's experience and understanding. It also shows a person's level of dedication to the field if they have gone through that process to get licensed. If you are looking to hire a fitter, who has more credibility; the with 15 years of experience and has a license, or someone who just has 15 years of experience? The license gives definition. Was I any smarter the day after I took the PE exam than the day before? Not appreciably. But I now had more credibility. Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field
RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing
CA Chapters AFSA proposal is attached. Have a great week! T Terri Simmons Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING Ph: 858-751-2930 - ext. 101 Fax: 858-751-2933 Cell: 619-871-8450 When we share -- that is poetry in the prose of life. --Sigmund Freud -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rod DiBona Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing Hi Terri, I would sure appreciate a copy of this as we are just starting here in SD. Thank You! Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Terri Leyton Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing The CA Chapters of AFSA are working on a new bill for our State. If anyone would like a draft, shoot me an email directly and I will forward a copy. I also have a copy of the CA Sprinkler Fitter Assn's (Union) draft proposal for this legislative session. T Terri Simmons Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING Ph: 858-751-2930 - ext. 101 Fax: 858-751-2933 Cell: 619-871-8450 When we share -- that is poetry in the prose of life. --Sigmund Freud -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing In Washington we got the licensing crammed down our throats but the administration is in the hands of the State FM. Everyone will be tested as well as have to show proof of experience. Not the best world but a decent compromise. So we have licensing/certification for installers/trainees, designers, NFPA 25 inspectors, contractors, but still not for plan reviewers or AHJ inspectors. Everybody has to meet uniform criteria and so far no group gets any special grandfathering apart from temporary certifications so that work can continue during transitions. These temporary certifications have sunset dates and require re-certification annually until the sunset date. Re-certification also requires the holder proving that he is working to meet the criteria for permanent status. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:57 AM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: Todd, that depends if the fitter had 5 yrs experience 3x or if he had 15 years experience. I'm sure during plan review you've shaken your head over what NICET 3's send out. I saw one where the areas outside the dwelling unit in #13r were residential- including the mechanical room and the owner's archives. That ain't right, but they have the signature of a Level 3. And I just got a copy of another competitor's dwg with a nice little NICET Seal in the title block, as if this makes em a Jr PE or something. Anyone familiar with NICET should know decades ago they banned the use of PE-seal lookalikes. Considering NICET is located in the NSPE's HQ in Alexandria, that's not a surprise. Mow if a state actually requires passing a test, well, that's a step in the right direction. Grandfathering everyone is like giving everyone in High School a diploma if they change the curriculum. They were here, so they must be students competent to hold a diploma, right? Well, that's the logic of grandfathering everyone. They've been hanging pipe for years, so we assume they know how to do it correctly. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing I have never run a contracting firm, but the whole issue of licensing includes not just fitters and contractors, but engineers, designers and even driving. Most licenses can only be obtained after a certain skill level is reached and demonstrated. This gives us a benchmark on how to judge a person's experience and understanding. It also shows a person's level of dedication to the field if they have gone through that process to get licensed. If you are looking to hire a fitter, who has more credibility; the with 15 years of experience and has a license, or someone who just has 15 years of experience? The license gives definition. Was I any smarter the day after I took the PE exam than the day before? Not appreciably. But I now had more credibility. Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing
We have had owner and fitter licensing in Ohio for over 15 years. This is primarily due to a high demand for a sprinkler retrofit law of Nursing homes that every plumber and mechanical contractor was installing. The plans were done by lots of inexperienced designers. It was chaos and laws were passed to help get people trained and licensed including designers. We require NICET sprinkler and alarm technicians now. Fitter apprentices must take classes and pass tests. I think it is necessary to keep Joe the plumber working out of his garage to install equipment with no plans and no approvals. Arthur Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection Design Tiroly and Associates 3300 King Ave Cleveland, OH 44114 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing One of the biggest problems I HAVE WITH Lic. of fitter's is, where is the accountability? Dev. Colo.Spg. And Fort Collins require lic. fitters on their projects, and the state is looking at a similar requirement. So a fitter screws up something the AHj tested him on, is he required to fix it on his dime? Is he required to be bonded? And if the AHJ pulls his Lic. for his short comings, do you have the right to fire him? I think everyone knows the answers. Individual is never liable, it's always the company. So he fixes his mistakes on your dime. Plumbers are bonded, why not fitters? (Because usually the master plumber that holds the Co. lic. is bonded, not every employee. So once again management pays Under most state laws loss of a Lic. is not grounds for firing. (But you may be able to make him a Helper since he no longer hold the Lic.) So what did anyone gain from this exercise in futile rulemaking? (Mo Govoment Gone Wild!!) Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing In Washington we got the licensing crammed down our throats but the administration is in the hands of the State FM. Everyone will be tested as well as have to show proof of experience. Not the best world but a decent compromise. So we have licensing/certification for installers/trainees, designers, NFPA 25 inspectors, contractors, but still not for plan reviewers or AHJ inspectors. Everybody has to meet uniform criteria and so far no group gets any special grandfathering apart from temporary certifications so that work can continue during transitions. These temporary certifications have sunset dates and require re-certification annually until the sunset date. Re-certification also requires the holder proving that he is working to meet the criteria for permanent status. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing
I assume you do not refer to Joe The Plumber company based out of Barberton? He is real company that does work with Comunale! Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Arthur Tiroly atir...@atcofirepro.com Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:53:00 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing We have had owner and fitter licensing in Ohio for over 15 years. This is primarily due to a high demand for a sprinkler retrofit law of Nursing homes that every plumber and mechanical contractor was installing. The plans were done by lots of inexperienced designers. It was chaos and laws were passed to help get people trained and licensed including designers. We require NICET sprinkler and alarm technicians now. Fitter apprentices must take classes and pass tests. I think it is necessary to keep Joe the plumber working out of his garage to install equipment with no plans and no approvals. Arthur Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection Design Tiroly and Associates 3300 King Ave Cleveland, OH 44114 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing One of the biggest problems I HAVE WITH Lic. of fitter's is, where is the accountability? Dev. Colo.Spg. And Fort Collins require lic. fitters on their projects, and the state is looking at a similar requirement. So a fitter screws up something the AHj tested him on, is he required to fix it on his dime? Is he required to be bonded? And if the AHJ pulls his Lic. for his short comings, do you have the right to fire him? I think everyone knows the answers. Individual is never liable, it's always the company. So he fixes his mistakes on your dime. Plumbers are bonded, why not fitters? (Because usually the master plumber that holds the Co. lic. is bonded, not every employee. So once again management pays Under most state laws loss of a Lic. is not grounds for firing. (But you may be able to make him a Helper since he no longer hold the Lic.) So what did anyone gain from this exercise in futile rulemaking? (Mo Govoment Gone Wild!!) Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing In Washington we got the licensing crammed down our throats but the administration is in the hands of the State FM. Everyone will be tested as well as have to show proof of experience. Not the best world but a decent compromise. So we have licensing/certification for installers/trainees, designers, NFPA 25 inspectors, contractors, but still not for plan reviewers or AHJ inspectors. Everybody has to meet uniform criteria and so far no group gets any special grandfathering apart from temporary certifications so that work can continue during transitions. These temporary certifications have sunset dates and require re-certification annually until the sunset date. Re-certification also requires the holder proving that he is working to meet the criteria for permanent status. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing
If you will go to www.wsp.wa.gov/fire/sprinkler_fit.htm. It indicates grandfathering through march 30 with no examination. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:56:29 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing Forest, Washington isn't grandfathering at all. To maintain business continuity people already working in the trade and able to prove hours are being issued temporary certifications. Those certifications are good for one year and, if memory serves me, are renewable once if the applicant can demonstrate that he is working towards permanent certification. After that one renewal he will need to fulfill all requirements for an actual certification. The deadline for applying for temporary status has already passed and temporary certification expires completely, again if memory serves me, in December 2010. As I said, not the best solution (no installer, we don't use the F word here, certification would be best) but since we have legislation we're stuck and this is as fair as we were able to make. Rest assured that the union fought to have everything in their favor but I don't think this is going to work out like they had hoped. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Forest Wilson cherokeefire...@aol.com wrote: Wa is granddathering in with proof of experience for a limited time. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:27:35 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing In Washington we got the licensing crammed down our throats but the administration is in the hands of the State FM. Everyone will be tested as well as have to show proof of experience. Not the best world but a decent compromise. So we have licensing/certification for installers/trainees, designers, NFPA 25 inspectors, contractors, but still not for plan reviewers or AHJ inspectors. Everybody has to meet uniform criteria and so far no group gets any special grandfathering apart from temporary certifications so that work can continue during transitions. These temporary certifications have sunset dates and require re-certification annually until the sunset date. Re-certification also requires the holder proving that he is working to meet the criteria for permanent status. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:57 AM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: Todd, that depends if the fitter had 5 yrs experience 3x or if he had 15 years experience. I'm sure during plan review you've shaken your head over what NICET 3's send out. I saw one where the areas outside the dwelling unit in #13r were residential- including the mechanical room and the owner's archives. That ain't right, but they have the signature of a Level 3. And I just got a copy of another competitor's dwg with a nice little NICET Seal in the title block, as if this makes em a Jr PE or something. Anyone familiar with NICET should know decades ago they banned the use of PE-seal lookalikes. Considering NICET is located in the NSPE's HQ in Alexandria, that's not a surprise. Mow if a state actually requires passing a test, well, that's a step in the right direction. Grandfathering everyone is like giving everyone in High School a diploma if they change the curriculum. They were here, so they must be students competent to hold a diploma, right? Well, that's the logic of grandfathering everyone. They've been hanging pipe for years, so we assume they know how to do it correctly. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing I have never run a contracting firm, but the whole issue of licensing includes not just fitters and contractors, but engineers, designers and even driving. Most licenses can only be obtained after a certain skill level is reached and demonstrated. This gives us a benchmark on how to judge a person's experience and understanding. It also shows a person's level of dedication to the field if they have gone through that process to get licensed. If you are looking to hire a fitter, who has more credibility; the with 15 years of experience and has a license, or someone who just has 15 years of experience? The license gives definition. Was I any smarter the day after I took the PE exam than the day before? Not appreciably. But I now had more credibility. Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: Residential systems in California - Licensing
Forest, You are right! That's a change from the recommendations, again as I remember, from the TAG on this issue. Of course the FM is not obligated to follow the recommendations but I'm pretty disappointed. This also occurred twenty years ago when we required a certificate to seal plans. There was a grandfathering then that was supposed to expire after three years. That was amended and so you would only lose your grandfathering if you let your certificate lapse. On the positive side everyone dies and grandfathering eventually goes away. Also, there are provisions in the WAC for fines, suspensions and revocations. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:16 PM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: Try Marriott brands- they're all sprinklered except a handful of the older Res Inns. Then you don't need to phone ahead to ask if they've got sprinklers. Good point, tho- non-discriminatory as it gets. And way too pervasive. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:57 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California - Licensing And how many times have I shook my head over what FPEs and PEs and Contractors and designers and inspectors and plans reviewers and on and on have put out on the street for bid, for review for construction etc. I've lost count. You can't lump any one group by name into the realm of incompetent. Incompetence is non-discriminatory. It's everywhere with all kinds of fancy letters after the name and sadly it seems to be more of the norm now-a-days than the exception. But sometimes people just miss something and make a mistake. So that becomes an opportunity for education. I don't know anyone who knows everything there is to know about fire protection. I know a lot of people who know a lot but not everything. And staying a the Holiday Inn Express won't help. Tried it, with limited results. ;) Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:57 AM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: Todd, that depends if the fitter had 5 yrs experience 3x or if he had 15 years experience. I'm sure during plan review you've shaken your head over what NICET 3's send out. I saw one where the areas outside the dwelling unit in #13r were residential- including the mechanical room and the owner's archives. That ain't right, but they have the signature of a Level 3. And I just got a copy of another competitor's dwg with a nice little NICET Seal in the title block, as if this makes em a Jr PE or something. Anyone familiar with NICET should know decades ago they banned the use of PE-seal lookalikes. Considering NICET is located in the NSPE's HQ in Alexandria, that's not a surprise. Mow if a state actually requires passing a test, well, that's a step in the right direction. Grandfathering everyone is like giving everyone in High School a diploma if they change the curriculum. They were here, so they must be students competent to hold a diploma, right? Well, that's the logic of grandfathering everyone. They've been hanging pipe for years, so we assume they know how to do it correctly. glc ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
I'm only going to speak to a couple of the many valid points raised in your mail. Using a single large residential plumbing contractor as an example, most have large shops where they're already doing sub-assembly fabrication and prep of materials prior to dropping at project sites. Washer/dryer manifolds, service manifolds, traps, etc., etc. This is no different than making up resi-risers, drops, test connections, etc. Methodologically, they are already set up for this with little or no start-up costs. Second, WRT to design you're right, it's no different for plumbers vs. sprinkies in that they will have to find/train design techs. But again, if you have a community of experienced plumbing designers to draw from, who are already familiar with plan reading, piping systems, water supplies and - in many cases - hydraulic design practices, the learning curve is shorter and flatters. Third, and by far the most significant IMHO, they are already structuring their overhead costs on a much higher value of work basis. I have no idea what the numbers are for a typical 2,000 SF tract home, but let's say that Company X is already 1) setting the meter and installing the service pipe; 2) installing all hot and cold water piping and fixtures, including the water heater; 3) installing the gas meter and piping for homes so-equipped; 4) running the drains and soils piping and the sewer lateral.What's that worth - does anyone on this forum have a good idea? Let's say it's ... oh, I dunno, $17,500 at the low end and 22,500 at the high end - does that sound about right? Add to that the FAU and duct work if it's an all-trades mechanical contract. And they have the after-sale service department, documentation and programming all done and sitting there ready to go. So if they're already charging $15,000-30,000 for materials and services on production homes, what do you think the impact will be to their overhead to add residential fire sprinklers? Not nearly as high as it is for a mom pop sprinkler shop, that's for sure. And as lucid as your observations are, you're not factoring that the homebuilding community is biased toward consolidated purchasing patterns. If they can one-stop-shop for everything wet, they'll give it a long hard look, believe me. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:07 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Here's where my friends Steve, George and Ryan and I disagree a bit. I'll rephrase - Never mind raising eyebrows, how is the PLUMBING industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? It's all manpower (FP/P labels aren't important). Are you telling us the plumbers all these years are sitting around with extra people? That doesn't make business sense. They have exactly the correct number of people they need to do the work they are doing now. Just like we do. If it's work increase for us it's work increase for them. both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Is the argument they are allowed to not follow the law? If no one can stop them why is there the inference we can be stopped. Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping So are you telling me they would appreciate if I expand into the siding market, roofing market and electrical market even if I have no knowledge of those fields? That would be a couple less subs. Or are you saying the homebuilders have reached their maximum capacity to deal with one more sub over the 20 plus they are already dealing with? it's not rocket science. Yep I agree and if it ain't rocket science for plumbers are you saying it is for us? Seems to me it's wouldn't be rocket science for us either. Dave A. Said Check the annex, and look at the Calculation Sheet. Like someone said, it's not rocket science. So a sprinkler contractor must do a plan and HW calc but a homeowner or plumber can use the annex? Now I know that's not what anyone actually said but that's what I took from the total comments. I believe what one should take from this is the annex is for us too. Now the biggest obstacle I see to anyone doing annex calc's are the AHJ's present company excluded. I agree economics will be the answer. I have full faith in the market to solve who is going to do this work. But first we will need to ensure through the gov't those practicing in a life safety field are qualified. Only then will economics be the driver. We are in the life safety field and plumbers are in the same field. We just have specialized in different areas. We fire suppression
Re: Residential systems in California
And that is why the industry should join the unions in supporting sprinklerfitting licensing for installers. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:42:10 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California I'm only going to speak to a couple of the many valid points raised in your mail. Using a single large residential plumbing contractor as an example, most have large shops where they're already doing sub-assembly fabrication and prep of materials prior to dropping at project sites. Washer/dryer manifolds, service manifolds, traps, etc., etc. This is no different than making up resi-risers, drops, test connections, etc. Methodologically, they are already set up for this with little or no start-up costs. Second, WRT to design you're right, it's no different for plumbers vs. sprinkies in that they will have to find/train design techs. But again, if you have a community of experienced plumbing designers to draw from, who are already familiar with plan reading, piping systems, water supplies and - in many cases - hydraulic design practices, the learning curve is shorter and flatters. Third, and by far the most significant IMHO, they are already structuring their overhead costs on a much higher value of work basis. I have no idea what the numbers are for a typical 2,000 SF tract home, but let's say that Company X is already 1) setting the meter and installing the service pipe; 2) installing all hot and cold water piping and fixtures, including the water heater; 3) installing the gas meter and piping for homes so-equipped; 4) running the drains and soils piping and the sewer lateral.What's that worth - does anyone on this forum have a good idea? Let's say it's ... oh, I dunno, $17,500 at the low end and 22,500 at the high end - does that sound about right? Add to that the FAU and duct work if it's an all-trades mechanical contract. And they have the after-sale service department, documentation and programming all done and sitting there ready to go. So if they're already charging $15,000-30,000 for materials and services on production homes, what do you think the impact will be to their overhead to add residential fire sprinklers? Not nearly as high as it is for a mom pop sprinkler shop, that's for sure. And as lucid as your observations are, you're not factoring that the homebuilding community is biased toward consolidated purchasing patterns. If they can one-stop-shop for everything wet, they'll give it a long hard look, believe me. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:07 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Here's where my friends Steve, George and Ryan and I disagree a bit. I'll rephrase - Never mind raising eyebrows, how is the PLUMBING industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? It's all manpower (FP/P labels aren't important). Are you telling us the plumbers all these years are sitting around with extra people? That doesn't make business sense. They have exactly the correct number of people they need to do the work they are doing now. Just like we do. If it's work increase for us it's work increase for them. both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Is the argument they are allowed to not follow the law? If no one can stop them why is there the inference we can be stopped. Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping So are you telling me they would appreciate if I expand into the siding market, roofing market and electrical market even if I have no knowledge of those fields? That would be a couple less subs. Or are you saying the homebuilders have reached their maximum capacity to deal with one more sub over the 20 plus they are already dealing with? it's not rocket science. Yep I agree and if it ain't rocket science for plumbers are you saying it is for us? Seems to me it's wouldn't be rocket science for us either. Dave A. Said Check the annex, and look at the Calculation Sheet. Like someone said, it's not rocket science. So a sprinkler contractor must do a plan and HW calc but a homeowner or plumber can use the annex? Now I know that's not what anyone actually said but that's what I took from the total comments. I believe what one should take from this is the annex is for us too. Now the biggest obstacle I see to anyone doing annex calc's are the AHJ's present company excluded. I agree economics
RE: Residential systems in California
Well Forest I respect everybody's right to have their opinion and I have agreed with you many times on this forum but on this one my answer would not be no; but HELL NO. Don't have time to defend my opinion right now but will be glad to engage later. I don't know your age or history but there are many of us who have been there and done that and have no interest in going down that road. It is one of those things that from the outside seems like a good idea but in reality would be a disaster. The problem is that many people believe that this would be a fair and equitable process but the truth is that there is nothing fair or equitable about it. Sound like a conspirator? Take a look at what we call the card Check. What do they call it? Employee Free Choice Act. That's real cute. The right to take away the employees free choice is more like it. Reminds me of the stimulus bill. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California And that is why the industry should join the unions in supporting sprinklerfitting licensing for installers. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:42:10 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California I'm only going to speak to a couple of the many valid points raised in your mail. Using a single large residential plumbing contractor as an example, most have large shops where they're already doing sub-assembly fabrication and prep of materials prior to dropping at project sites. Washer/dryer manifolds, service manifolds, traps, etc., etc. This is no different than making up resi-risers, drops, test connections, etc. Methodologically, they are already set up for this with little or no start-up costs. Second, WRT to design you're right, it's no different for plumbers vs. sprinkies in that they will have to find/train design techs. But again, if you have a community of experienced plumbing designers to draw from, who are already familiar with plan reading, piping systems, water supplies and - in many cases - hydraulic design practices, the learning curve is shorter and flatters. Third, and by far the most significant IMHO, they are already structuring their overhead costs on a much higher value of work basis. I have no idea what the numbers are for a typical 2,000 SF tract home, but let's say that Company X is already 1) setting the meter and installing the service pipe; 2) installing all hot and cold water piping and fixtures, including the water heater; 3) installing the gas meter and piping for homes so-equipped; 4) running the drains and soils piping and the sewer lateral.What's that worth - does anyone on this forum have a good idea? Let's say it's ... oh, I dunno, $17,500 at the low end and 22,500 at the high end - does that sound about right? Add to that the FAU and duct work if it's an all-trades mechanical contract. And they have the after-sale service department, documentation and programming all done and sitting there ready to go. So if they're already charging $15,000-30,000 for materials and services on production homes, what do you think the impact will be to their overhead to add residential fire sprinklers? Not nearly as high as it is for a mom pop sprinkler shop, that's for sure. And as lucid as your observations are, you're not factoring that the homebuilding community is biased toward consolidated purchasing patterns. If they can one-stop-shop for everything wet, they'll give it a long hard look, believe me. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:07 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Here's where my friends Steve, George and Ryan and I disagree a bit. I'll rephrase - Never mind raising eyebrows, how is the PLUMBING industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? It's all manpower (FP/P labels aren't important). Are you telling us the plumbers all these years are sitting around with extra people? That doesn't make business sense. They have exactly the correct number of people they need to do the work they are doing now. Just like we do. If it's work increase for us it's work increase for them. both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Is the argument
Re: Residential systems in California
I'm not saying be pro-union. I'm saying pro-license. Plumbers have it to their advantage. A friend of mine was fined $ 2,000 a few years ago for installing a backflow on a sprinkler system! It required a lucensed plumber. Otherwise what steve said will come to pass: plumbers will control the residential market. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:54:59 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Well Forest I respect everybody's right to have their opinion and I have agreed with you many times on this forum but on this one my answer would not be no; but HELL NO. Don't have time to defend my opinion right now but will be glad to engage later. I don't know your age or history but there are many of us who have been there and done that and have no interest in going down that road. It is one of those things that from the outside seems like a good idea but in reality would be a disaster. The problem is that many people believe that this would be a fair and equitable process but the truth is that there is nothing fair or equitable about it. Sound like a conspirator? Take a look at what we call the card Check. What do they call it? Employee Free Choice Act. That's real cute. The right to take away the employees free choice is more like it. Reminds me of the stimulus bill. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California And that is why the industry should join the unions in supporting sprinklerfitting licensing for installers. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:42:10 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California I'm only going to speak to a couple of the many valid points raised in your mail. Using a single large residential plumbing contractor as an example, most have large shops where they're already doing sub-assembly fabrication and prep of materials prior to dropping at project sites. Washer/dryer manifolds, service manifolds, traps, etc., etc. This is no different than making up resi-risers, drops, test connections, etc. Methodologically, they are already set up for this with little or no start-up costs. Second, WRT to design you're right, it's no different for plumbers vs. sprinkies in that they will have to find/train design techs. But again, if you have a community of experienced plumbing designers to draw from, who are already familiar with plan reading, piping systems, water supplies and - in many cases - hydraulic design practices, the learning curve is shorter and flatters. Third, and by far the most significant IMHO, they are already structuring their overhead costs on a much higher value of work basis. I have no idea what the numbers are for a typical 2,000 SF tract home, but let's say that Company X is already 1) setting the meter and installing the service pipe; 2) installing all hot and cold water piping and fixtures, including the water heater; 3) installing the gas meter and piping for homes so-equipped; 4) running the drains and soils piping and the sewer lateral.What's that worth - does anyone on this forum have a good idea? Let's say it's ... oh, I dunno, $17,500 at the low end and 22,500 at the high end - does that sound about right? Add to that the FAU and duct work if it's an all-trades mechanical contract. And they have the after-sale service department, documentation and programming all done and sitting there ready to go. So if they're already charging $15,000-30,000 for materials and services on production homes, what do you think the impact will be to their overhead to add residential fire sprinklers? Not nearly as high as it is for a mom pop sprinkler shop, that's for sure. And as lucid as your observations are, you're not factoring that the homebuilding community is biased toward consolidated purchasing patterns. If they can one-stop-shop for everything wet, they'll give it a long hard look, believe me. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:07 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Here's where my friends Steve, George and Ryan and I disagree a bit. I'll rephrase - Never mind raising eyebrows, how is the PLUMBING industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary
RE: Residential systems in California
Forest is right Ron, I didn't get the impression he was pro-union, just pro-license. Plumbing licenses have been around longer than sprinkler licenses. I'm sorry to say and not to offend anyone but I've always considered sprinkler systems to be plumbing system. We're just specialists. Sprinklers have always been a akin to plumbing and I think always will be. I'm afraid to say if multi-purpose really advances in 1 and 2 family work, we're going to have to align ourselves or branch out. I do a fair amount of small 13D work. I'm seeing green technologies coming into play more and more. I'm seeing individual tankless heaters now instead of central heating, rainwater and greywater systems, groundwater heat pumps, more use of radiant, etc. The reason I say this is I see more (not less) trades on the job and less (I think) inclination to go multi-purpose, if it was an option. Multi-purpose is tough around these parts (pahts) because a lot of purveyors aren't allowing combination services and we have strict licensing laws mostly due to a strong union presence. Tom I'm not saying be pro-union. I'm saying pro-license. Plumbers have it to their advantage. A friend of mine was fined $ 2,000 a few years ago for installing a backflow on a sprinkler system! It required a lucensed plumber. Otherwise what steve said will come to pass: plumbers will control the residential market. Well Forest I respect everybody's right to have their opinion and I have agreed with you many times on this forum but on this one my answer would not be no; but HELL NO. Don't have time to defend my opinion right now but will be glad to engage later. I don't know your age or history but there are many of us who have been there and done that and have no interest in going down that road. It is one of those things that from the outside seems like a good idea but in reality would be a disaster. The problem is that many people believe that this would be a fair and equitable process but the truth is that there is nothing fair or equitable about it. Sound like a conspirator? Take a look at what we call the card Check. What do they call it? Employee Free Choice Act. That's real cute. The right to take away the employees free choice is more like it. Reminds me of the stimulus bill. Rod DiBona And that is why the industry should join the unions in supporting sprinklerfitting licensing for installers. Forest Wilson ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
I know you are not specifically saying to be pro union but let me promise you that fitter licensing is the first step. Even if it ends there it usually has very negative consequences. The union WILL try and use it to their advantage. This is not hypothetical it has happened in many places. Let me copy a quote from my friend Micheal Winiecki who along with his father Frank and many others in 417's jurisdiction have lived it. Michael Winiecki, president of General Sprinkler Corp., Maplewood, Minn., states, The long-term price we have paid since fitter licensing has been enacted is that our business growth and development has suffered. From AFSA's white paper on the issue. It is not sprinkler fitters that need to be licensed, it is the fire sprinkler contractor who is ultimately responsible for the quality of the installation. It is the fire sprinkler contractor who should be licensed to install fire sprinkler systems, and licensing of contractors must be based upon competency in order to be effective. Can you imagine the embarrassment to the industry if we finally win this battle only to have a shortage of licensed fitters to do the job? It is the contractor that needs to have qualified, competent oversight as they are the ones who are ultimately responsible. I understand that you are coming from a position of using the licensing to our advantage and ice the plumbers out but I don't believe that is the approach that will work. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California I'm not saying be pro-union. I'm saying pro-license. Plumbers have it to their advantage. A friend of mine was fined $ 2,000 a few years ago for installing a backflow on a sprinkler system! It required a lucensed plumber. Otherwise what steve said will come to pass: plumbers will control the residential market. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:54:59 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Well Forest I respect everybody's right to have their opinion and I have agreed with you many times on this forum but on this one my answer would not be no; but HELL NO. Don't have time to defend my opinion right now but will be glad to engage later. I don't know your age or history but there are many of us who have been there and done that and have no interest in going down that road. It is one of those things that from the outside seems like a good idea but in reality would be a disaster. The problem is that many people believe that this would be a fair and equitable process but the truth is that there is nothing fair or equitable about it. Sound like a conspirator? Take a look at what we call the card Check. What do they call it? Employee Free Choice Act. That's real cute. The right to take away the employees free choice is more like it. Reminds me of the stimulus bill. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California And that is why the industry should join the unions in supporting sprinklerfitting licensing for installers. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:42:10 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California I'm only going to speak to a couple of the many valid points raised in your mail. Using a single large residential plumbing contractor as an example, most have large shops where they're already doing sub-assembly fabrication and prep of materials prior to dropping at project sites. Washer/dryer manifolds, service manifolds, traps, etc., etc. This is no different than making up resi-risers, drops, test connections, etc. Methodologically, they are already set up for this with little or no start-up costs. Second, WRT to design you're right, it's no different for plumbers vs. sprinkies in that they will have to find/train design techs. But again, if you have a community of experienced plumbing designers to draw from, who are already familiar with plan reading, piping systems, water supplies and - in many cases - hydraulic design practices, the learning curve is shorter and flatters. Third, and by far the most significant IMHO, they are already structuring their overhead costs on a much higher value of work basis. I have no idea what the numbers are for a typical 2,000 SF tract home, but let's say that Company
Re: Residential systems in California
I can understand both sides of the issue but would have to agree with Rod. If the contractor is licensed it gives a better point of accountability. When the installer is licensed and screws up a guy making $5-$8 a year is penalized. This leaves the old well he did it so im cool mentality in play. Where as if the contractor is licensed you now have 30 to 40 employees all making different salaries affected by the screw up.. So now everyones job is at stake if there is a bad screw up, so everyone looks out for everyone. Thus making the quality of the system better therefore providing better life safety for the rest of America. I have had to be a part of the licensing of the contractor for several years and the accountability makes people pay attention. A friend of mine works in an area where the fitter has to be licensed and he says they always have trouble finding people and keeping them, therefore causing business to suffer. Unions have there place most definately but licensing of the company is in my opinion more effective. Rod how is Jesse doing up there in Casper Wy? Jeremy S. Blocker Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness. --James Thurber From: Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:59:45 PM Subject: RE: Residential systems in California I know you are not specifically saying to be pro union but let me promise you that fitter licensing is the first step. Even if it ends there it usually has very negative consequences. The union WILL try and use it to their advantage. This is not hypothetical it has happened in many places. Let me copy a quote from my friend Micheal Winiecki who along with his father Frank and many others in 417's jurisdiction have lived it. Michael Winiecki, president of General Sprinkler Corp., Maplewood, Minn., states, The long-term price we have paid since fitter licensing has been enacted is that our business growth and development has suffered. From AFSA's white paper on the issue. It is not sprinkler fitters that need to be licensed, it is the fire sprinkler contractor who is ultimately responsible for the quality of the installation. It is the fire sprinkler contractor who should be licensed to install fire sprinkler systems, and licensing of contractors must be based upon competency in order to be effective. Can you imagine the embarrassment to the industry if we finally win this battle only to have a shortage of licensed fitters to do the job? It is the contractor that needs to have qualified, competent oversight as they are the ones who are ultimately responsible. I understand that you are coming from a position of using the licensing to our advantage and ice the plumbers out but I don't believe that is the approach that will work. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California I'm not saying be pro-union. I'm saying pro-license. Plumbers have it to their advantage. A friend of mine was fined $ 2,000 a few years ago for installing a backflow on a sprinkler system! It required a lucensed plumber. Otherwise what steve said will come to pass: plumbers will control the residential market. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:54:59 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Well Forest I respect everybody's right to have their opinion and I have agreed with you many times on this forum but on this one my answer would not be no; but HELL NO. Don't have time to defend my opinion right now but will be glad to engage later. I don't know your age or history but there are many of us who have been there and done that and have no interest in going down that road. It is one of those things that from the outside seems like a good idea but in reality would be a disaster. The problem is that many people believe that this would be a fair and equitable process but the truth is that there is nothing fair or equitable about it. Sound like a conspirator? Take a look at what we call the card Check. What do they call it? Employee Free Choice Act. That's real cute. The right to take away the employees free choice is more like it. Reminds me of the stimulus bill. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California And that is why the industry should join the unions in supporting
RE: Residential systems in California
The number of homes I heard was 350 for every spkr contractor office in the US as additional market. That's from when they were still building new homes. Regardless, how many of us are set up- or will be as the mkt arrives with the advent of the adoption date (2011)? That's a lot of work to do. No doubt several of us have the capacity to do that work now- but its unrealistic to think we'll be ready. Economics? Ryan, I agree with you- and I believe Mr Leyton- that plumbers installing pex will be the most cost-effective delivery method. They're already on the job, and it doesn't take the full 8 hour day we'd figure to do a phase task if you just walk over from your plumbing work and cut back 4 heads that need to go in today. People have asked if we're gearing up for the residential market. With the requirement still questionable as to passage in any particular state, and no work until the requirement arrives in 2011, what would I do with a residential dept until there's demand for it? glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ryan J. Smith Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California Great discussion. I'm not going to make any friends on this forum with my comments on this, but I do believe multi-purpose systems are the future of 13D residential fire sprinkler systems. Code requirements will be modified, new license categories created to facilitate this. The cost savings are compelling and will cause the market to demand this. There will be a lot of debate over the coming years on this, but if the end vision really is to save lives with sprinkler protection in every new home, it is hard to ignore the benefits of a multi-purpose system. Certainly the home builders will not be ignoring this...and remember, even though their opposition tactics frustrate us all, in the end, they do represent a majority of the **customers** who will be purchasing these 13D systems. *Ryan Smith* Residential Fire Sprinklers .com - Your Source for Home Fire Protection http://www.ResidentialFireSprinklers.com http://www.FireProtectionSource.com Forest Wilson wrote: Also the PHCC promotes this. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Forest Wilson cherokeefire...@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:12:16 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California I can answer the license question. In oregon, where wirsbo systems are installed, you must be a licensed plumber. The plumbers union promotes this. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Jay Jay Blocker fire_sprinkler...@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:52:54 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California Well its good to know that potter signal has information regarding how much water a toilet uses. Especially when there are high flow toilets and low flow toilets and even high volume. Its nice to know that they research life safety and life relief. LOL I am just wandering how we could leave a connection for a plumber to use to tie the sprinkler system to a toilet if he does not possess the proper license. Some jurisdictions require the company and tech to hold a license to touch any part of a fire sprinkler system, They sometimes require a plumbing license to touch a toilet. So the question is does the sprinkler tech have to gain a plumbing license or does the plumber get a fire sprinkler license? During the inspection would the tech have to inspect the interior of the toilet? What happens when a 3 year old boy figures out that moving that handle up and down repeatedly moves alot of water (possibly more than 6gpm). Does the toilet need a UL listing since its attached to a life safety system? Maybe we should paint the toilet red and put a sign on it saying FOR EMERGENCY USE ONLY. How can we calc a toilet? Any ideas on how often they will get used? What about calcing it if the user does a double flush. Jeremy S. Blocker Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness. --James Thurber From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:25:29 PM Subject: RE: Residential systems in California There is a good possibility these types of systems will become common, maybe not the most common but there will definitely be markets. These are usually the PEX piping systems but not always. If they can eliminate the BFP that can reduce the cost. They may still use 2 separate meters, one for domestic water, the other a fire meter for the sprinkler system. But they would eliminate the BFP and associated maintenance costs. The toilet will not activate
RE: Residential systems in California
Never mind raising eyebrows, how is our industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? Plumbing contractors are going to start doing this work- both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping and many plumbing contractors already have design departments. I've said this dozens of times already in this forum but I'll say it again - it's not rocket science. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California For the sprinkler contractors who don't hold a plumbing license: if there is no BFP, then the entire sprinkler system is potable. That's work you no longer have access to. Does that raise any eyebrows? Ed Kramer Littleton, CO To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3869 (20090219) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3873 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
Are plumbing designers going to start doing hydraulic calculations? At 11:09 AM 2/20/2009, you wrote: Never mind raising eyebrows, how is our industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? Plumbing contractors are going to start doing this work- both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping and many plumbing contractors already have design departments. I've said this dozens of times already in this forum but I'll say it again - it's not rocket science. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California For the sprinkler contractors who don't hold a plumbing license: if there is no BFP, then the entire sprinkler system is potable. That's work you no longer have access to. Does that raise any eyebrows? Ed Kramer Littleton, CO To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3869 (20090219) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3873 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
I believe there will be plenty of business for everyone. The challenge to the fire sprinkler contractor, is to adapt to the new and changing market. That's where this group should be focusing. Where and how to make sure you get your piece of the very big pie. Now is the time to prepare, and train train train train train. Educate. My opinion, only. Happy Friday all! T Terri Simmons Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING Ph: 858-751-2930 - ext. 101 Fax: 858-751-2933 Cell: 619-871-8450 When we share -- that is poetry in the prose of life. --Sigmund Freud -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Never mind raising eyebrows, how is our industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? Plumbing contractors are going to start doing this work- both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping and many plumbing contractors already have design departments. I've said this dozens of times already in this forum but I'll say it again - it's not rocket science. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California For the sprinkler contractors who don't hold a plumbing license: if there is no BFP, then the entire sprinkler system is potable. That's work you no longer have access to. Does that raise any eyebrows? Ed Kramer Littleton, CO To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3869 (20090219) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3873 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3874 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3874 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
Why not? Why wouldn't they? Why, specifically, COULDN'T they? BTW, check out the new pipe sizing and meter loss tables adopted for 2009 13D. There is now a prescriptive or scheduled design alternative to the hydraulic calculation method. This information is the same as that adopted by ICC for the plumbing code standards pursuant to the IRC code changes. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Are plumbing designers going to start doing hydraulic calculations? At 11:09 AM 2/20/2009, you wrote: Never mind raising eyebrows, how is our industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? Plumbing contractors are going to start doing this work- both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping and many plumbing contractors already have design departments. I've said this dozens of times already in this forum but I'll say it again - it's not rocket science. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California For the sprinkler contractors who don't hold a plumbing license: if there is no BFP, then the entire sprinkler system is potable. That's work you no longer have access to. Does that raise any eyebrows? Ed Kramer Littleton, CO To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3869 (20090219) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3873 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3874 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3874 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
Check the annex, and look at the Calculation Sheet. Like someone said, it's not rocket science. David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov ** Note new email address: david.au...@nebraska.gov -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 11:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Why not? Why wouldn't they? Why, specifically, COULDN'T they? BTW, check out the new pipe sizing and meter loss tables adopted for 2009 13D. There is now a prescriptive or scheduled design alternative to the hydraulic calculation method. This information is the same as that adopted by ICC for the plumbing code standards pursuant to the IRC code changes. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Are plumbing designers going to start doing hydraulic calculations? At 11:09 AM 2/20/2009, you wrote: Never mind raising eyebrows, how is our industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? Plumbing contractors are going to start doing this work- both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping and many plumbing contractors already have design departments. I've said this dozens of times already in this forum but I'll say it again - it's not rocket science. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California For the sprinkler contractors who don't hold a plumbing license: if there is no BFP, then the entire sprinkler system is potable. That's work you no longer have access to. Does that raise any eyebrows? Ed Kramer Littleton, CO To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3869 (20090219) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3873 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3874 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3874 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email
Re: Residential systems in California
I don't know for sure, Todd, but if the homeowner can do it using that simplified form in NFPA-13D, then I don't think the plumbing designers should have too much difficulty. It's just math, right? -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax parsleyconsult...@cox.net mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net e-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com website Todd Williams wrote: Are plumbing designers going to start doing hydraulic calculations? At 11:09 AM 2/20/2009, you wrote: Never mind raising eyebrows, how is our industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? Plumbing contractors are going to start doing this work- both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping and many plumbing contractors already have design departments. I've said this dozens of times already in this forum but I'll say it again - it's not rocket science. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California For the sprinkler contractors who don't hold a plumbing license: if there is no BFP, then the entire sprinkler system is potable. That's work you no longer have access to. Does that raise any eyebrows? Ed Kramer Littleton, CO To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3869 (20090219) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3873 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Residential systems in California
. It's just math, right? Didn't Bernie Madoff say that? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
Start? Todd, they've been doing them for 20 years. George Church I don't know for sure, Todd, but if the homeowner can do it using that simplified form in NFPA-13D, then I don't think the plumbing designers should have too much difficulty. It's just math, right? -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET Todd Williams wrote: Are plumbing designers going to start doing hydraulic calculations? At 11:09 AM 2/20/2009, you wrote: Never mind raising eyebrows, how is our industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? Plumbing contractors are going to start doing this work- both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping and many plumbing contractors already have design departments. I've said this dozens of times already in this forum but I'll say it again - it's not rocket science. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
Yes Todd it is just math, and if he ever sees the light of day again in his life, I bet Bernie could become a residential designer himself someday. Steve -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California . It's just math, right? Didn't Bernie Madoff say that? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3874 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3874 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Residential systems in California
In Washington, forward thinking that we are, we require anyone installing sprinklers to be licensed. We have a special license for 13D stuff and there's a test that has to be passed for designers. Installers have to have way too many hours before becoming installer but that number is by statute rather than administration so is next to impossible to change. So if a plumbing contractor wants to install sprinklers he has to also be a sprinkler contractor (the business), have a certified designer on staff (the technical oversight) and a licensed residential sprinkle installer (the trained labor). By the same token if a sprinkler contractor wants to do plumbing he has to be a plumbing contractor (the business), have a licensed administrator on staff (the technical oversight) and a licensed journeyman plumber (the trained labor). Once we were willing to trade residential work for backflow installation for sprinkler systems but they demanded that they keep that backflow and that little piece of potable pipe between our underground our system and so we kept all our systems. They may be singing the blues come 2011 as long as we can hold the NAHB BIAW at bay. On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com wrote: Yes Todd it is just math, and if he ever sees the light of day again in his life, I bet Bernie could become a residential designer himself someday. Steve -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California . It's just math, right? Didn't Bernie Madoff say that? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3874 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3874 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
We specialize and do houses in the Vancouver, Canada area. Since 1994 they have mandated a passive purge system here. Basically we run a blazemaster sprinkler system with the most remote toilet connected to the sprinklers. The low flow to a toilet does not set off the sprinkler flow switch regardless of the timing, we set our switches here to around 20 secs and do not get false alarms. We also use a dual check backflow (Watts 07S-rated for fire protection) that is a backflow, but is not a testable device. 6 psi loss at 40 gpm I believe. We leave a cap for the toilet water supply and the plumber hooks up when he installs the toilets. A separate PRV is required for the toilet supply line if the pressure is over 80 psi in the sprinkler system. Plumbers typically use a Watts P60, 1/4 brass one on the supply line. This was started for a couple reasons that I am aware of. One is the elimination of a testable backflow requiring service every year. In the old days when we used a standalone backflow with valves, owners that were not educated were worried of a total house flood, and would just shut the sprinklers off. The passive purge keeps the system water relatively fresh and prevents them from turning the water off if they want to use the toilet we have connected to. That toilet effectively monitors the valves in the system and ensures they remain open. Still a stand alone sprinkler system and therefore installed by sprinkler fitters. I think this system has worked well here. Thanks Dave Killey Fire Busters Inc 7887 114A St., Delta, B.C. V4C 5L8 604-599-4499-Ph 604-599-4319-Fax dkil...@firebusters.com NOTICE: The information in this email is for the intended recipient only. Information is personal and confidential, and shall not be shared with anyone other than the recipients of this email. If you receive this email in error, please contact the writer immediately. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watt Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:01 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? What is the definition of Task Force anyhow? Thomas ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release Date: 02/19/09 10:48:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Never mind raising eyebrows, how is our industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? Plumbing contractors are going to start doing this work- both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping and many plumbing contractors already have design departments. I've said this dozens of times already in this forum but I'll say it again - it's not rocket science. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential systems in California For the sprinkler contractors who don't hold a plumbing license: if there is no BFP, then the entire sprinkler system is potable. That's work you no longer have access to. Does that raise any eyebrows? Ed Kramer Littleton, CO To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3869 (20090219) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3873 (20090220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
I'VE REQUESTD MY 1.6 Billon of TARP, and am just waiting for the check. When it comes I'll buy pie for all of you! Happy weekend! Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 sure you get your piece of the very big pie. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
Good luck. The biggest one I can find on the shelf out here is 50' x 100'. At 06:16 PM 2/20/2009, you wrote: I'VE REQUESTD MY 1.6 Billon of TARP, and am just waiting for the check. When it comes I'll buy pie for all of you! Happy weekend! Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 sure you get your piece of the very big pie. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Residential systems in California
To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? What is the definition of Task Force anyhow? Thomas ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
Gee, a green idea. I wonder if they could find a flush valve that could be set for 60 seconds, or whatever.. almost Friday (and almost Baseball season). FGOL To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? What is the definition of Task Force anyhow? Thomas ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
There is a good possibility these types of systems will become common, maybe not the most common but there will definitely be markets. These are usually the PEX piping systems but not always. If they can eliminate the BFP that can reduce the cost. They may still use 2 separate meters, one for domestic water, the other a fire meter for the sprinkler system. But they would eliminate the BFP and associated maintenance costs. The toilet will not activate the flowswitch. Toilets flow 1-2 gpm. They also don't flow for long periods of time. The retard on the flowswitch can be set longer. Flowswitches do not activate until over 6gpm. The sprinkler installer does not have to install the toilet. They can leave a connection for the plumber to connect the toilet to. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager www.pottersignal.com 1-800-325-3936 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watt Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:01 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? What is the definition of Task Force anyhow? Thomas ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential systems in California
The 13D/13R committee has adopted a new definition for Passive Purge systems. See the ROC for more information. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watt Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:01 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? What is the definition of Task Force anyhow? Thomas ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3869 (20090219) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3869 (20090219) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Residential systems in California
Well its good to know that potter signal has information regarding how much water a toilet uses. Especially when there are high flow toilets and low flow toilets and even high volume. Its nice to know that they research life safety and life relief. LOL I am just wandering how we could leave a connection for a plumber to use to tie the sprinkler system to a toilet if he does not possess the proper license. Some jurisdictions require the company and tech to hold a license to touch any part of a fire sprinkler system, They sometimes require a plumbing license to touch a toilet. So the question is does the sprinkler tech have to gain a plumbing license or does the plumber get a fire sprinkler license? During the inspection would the tech have to inspect the interior of the toilet? What happens when a 3 year old boy figures out that moving that handle up and down repeatedly moves alot of water (possibly more than 6gpm). Does the toilet need a UL listing since its attached to a life safety system? Maybe we should paint the toilet red and put a sign on it saying FOR EMERGENCY USE ONLY. How can we calc a toilet? Any ideas on how often they will get used? What about calcing it if the user does a double flush. Jeremy S. Blocker Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness. --James Thurber From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:25:29 PM Subject: RE: Residential systems in California There is a good possibility these types of systems will become common, maybe not the most common but there will definitely be markets. These are usually the PEX piping systems but not always. If they can eliminate the BFP that can reduce the cost. They may still use 2 separate meters, one for domestic water, the other a fire meter for the sprinkler system. But they would eliminate the BFP and associated maintenance costs. The toilet will not activate the flowswitch. Toilets flow 1-2 gpm. They also don't flow for long periods of time. The retard on the flowswitch can be set longer.. Flowswitches do not activate until over 6gpm. The sprinkler installer does not have to install the toilet. They can leave a connection for the plumber to connect the toilet to. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager www.pottersignal.com 1-800-325-3936 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watt Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:01 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? What is the definition of Task Force anyhow? Thomas ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Residential systems in California
I can answer the license question. In oregon, where wirsbo systems are installed, you must be a licensed plumber. The plumbers union promotes this. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Jay Jay Blocker fire_sprinkler...@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:52:54 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California Well its good to know that potter signal has information regarding how much water a toilet uses. Especially when there are high flow toilets and low flow toilets and even high volume. Its nice to know that they research life safety and life relief. LOL I am just wandering how we could leave a connection for a plumber to use to tie the sprinkler system to a toilet if he does not possess the proper license. Some jurisdictions require the company and tech to hold a license to touch any part of a fire sprinkler system, They sometimes require a plumbing license to touch a toilet. So the question is does the sprinkler tech have to gain a plumbing license or does the plumber get a fire sprinkler license? During the inspection would the tech have to inspect the interior of the toilet? What happens when a 3 year old boy figures out that moving that handle up and down repeatedly moves alot of water (possibly more than 6gpm). Does the toilet need a UL listing since its attached to a life safety system? Maybe we should paint the toilet red and put a sign on it saying FOR EMERGENCY USE ONLY. How can we calc a toilet? Any ideas on how often they will get used? What about calcing it if the user does a double flush. Jeremy S. Blocker Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness. --James Thurber From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:25:29 PM Subject: RE: Residential systems in California There is a good possibility these types of systems will become common, maybe not the most common but there will definitely be markets. These are usually the PEX piping systems but not always. If they can eliminate the BFP that can reduce the cost. They may still use 2 separate meters, one for domestic water, the other a fire meter for the sprinkler system. But they would eliminate the BFP and associated maintenance costs. The toilet will not activate the flowswitch. Toilets flow 1-2 gpm. They also don't flow for long periods of time. The retard on the flowswitch can be set longer.. Flowswitches do not activate until over 6gpm. The sprinkler installer does not have to install the toilet. They can leave a connection for the plumber to connect the toilet to. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager www.pottersignal.com 1-800-325-3936 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watt Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:01 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? What is the definition of Task Force anyhow? Thomas ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Residential systems in California
Also the PHCC promotes this. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Forest Wilson cherokeefire...@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:12:16 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California I can answer the license question. In oregon, where wirsbo systems are installed, you must be a licensed plumber. The plumbers union promotes this. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Jay Jay Blocker fire_sprinkler...@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:52:54 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California Well its good to know that potter signal has information regarding how much water a toilet uses. Especially when there are high flow toilets and low flow toilets and even high volume. Its nice to know that they research life safety and life relief. LOL I am just wandering how we could leave a connection for a plumber to use to tie the sprinkler system to a toilet if he does not possess the proper license. Some jurisdictions require the company and tech to hold a license to touch any part of a fire sprinkler system, They sometimes require a plumbing license to touch a toilet. So the question is does the sprinkler tech have to gain a plumbing license or does the plumber get a fire sprinkler license? During the inspection would the tech have to inspect the interior of the toilet? What happens when a 3 year old boy figures out that moving that handle up and down repeatedly moves alot of water (possibly more than 6gpm). Does the toilet need a UL listing since its attached to a life safety system? Maybe we should paint the toilet red and put a sign on it saying FOR EMERGENCY USE ONLY. How can we calc a toilet? Any ideas on how often they will get used? What about calcing it if the user does a double flush. Jeremy S. Blocker Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness. --James Thurber From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:25:29 PM Subject: RE: Residential systems in California There is a good possibility these types of systems will become common, maybe not the most common but there will definitely be markets. These are usually the PEX piping systems but not always. If they can eliminate the BFP that can reduce the cost. They may still use 2 separate meters, one for domestic water, the other a fire meter for the sprinkler system. But they would eliminate the BFP and associated maintenance costs. The toilet will not activate the flowswitch. Toilets flow 1-2 gpm. They also don't flow for long periods of time. The retard on the flowswitch can be set longer.. Flowswitches do not activate until over 6gpm. The sprinkler installer does not have to install the toilet. They can leave a connection for the plumber to connect the toilet to. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager www.pottersignal.com 1-800-325-3936 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watt Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:01 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? What is the definition of Task Force anyhow? Thomas ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send
RE: Residential systems in California
For the sprinkler contractors who don't hold a plumbing license: if there is no BFP, then the entire sprinkler system is potable. That's work you no longer have access to. Does that raise any eyebrows? Ed Kramer Littleton, CO To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Residential systems in California
Great discussion. I'm not going to make any friends on this forum with my comments on this, but I do believe multi-purpose systems are the future of 13D residential fire sprinkler systems. Code requirements will be modified, new license categories created to facilitate this. The cost savings are compelling and will cause the market to demand this. There will be a lot of debate over the coming years on this, but if the end vision really is to save lives with sprinkler protection in every new home, it is hard to ignore the benefits of a multi-purpose system. Certainly the home builders will not be ignoring this...and remember, even though their opposition tactics frustrate us all, in the end, they do represent a majority of the **customers** who will be purchasing these 13D systems. *Ryan Smith* Residential Fire Sprinklers .com - Your Source for Home Fire Protection http://www.ResidentialFireSprinklers.com http://www.FireProtectionSource.com Forest Wilson wrote: Also the PHCC promotes this. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Forest Wilson cherokeefire...@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:12:16 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California I can answer the license question. In oregon, where wirsbo systems are installed, you must be a licensed plumber. The plumbers union promotes this. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Jay Jay Blocker fire_sprinkler...@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:52:54 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California Well its good to know that potter signal has information regarding how much water a toilet uses. Especially when there are high flow toilets and low flow toilets and even high volume. Its nice to know that they research life safety and life relief. LOL I am just wandering how we could leave a connection for a plumber to use to tie the sprinkler system to a toilet if he does not possess the proper license. Some jurisdictions require the company and tech to hold a license to touch any part of a fire sprinkler system, They sometimes require a plumbing license to touch a toilet. So the question is does the sprinkler tech have to gain a plumbing license or does the plumber get a fire sprinkler license? During the inspection would the tech have to inspect the interior of the toilet? What happens when a 3 year old boy figures out that moving that handle up and down repeatedly moves alot of water (possibly more than 6gpm). Does the toilet need a UL listing since its attached to a life safety system? Maybe we should paint the toilet red and put a sign on it saying FOR EMERGENCY USE ONLY. How can we calc a toilet? Any ideas on how often they will get used? What about calcing it if the user does a double flush. Jeremy S. Blocker Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness. --James Thurber From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:25:29 PM Subject: RE: Residential systems in California There is a good possibility these types of systems will become common, maybe not the most common but there will definitely be markets. These are usually the PEX piping systems but not always. If they can eliminate the BFP that can reduce the cost. They may still use 2 separate meters, one for domestic water, the other a fire meter for the sprinkler system. But they would eliminate the BFP and associated maintenance costs. The toilet will not activate the flowswitch. Toilets flow 1-2 gpm. They also don't flow for long periods of time. The retard on the flowswitch can be set longer.. Flowswitches do not activate until over 6gpm. The sprinkler installer does not have to install the toilet. They can leave a connection for the plumber to connect the toilet to. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager www.pottersignal.com 1-800-325-3936 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watt Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:01 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential systems in California To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ... Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? What is the definition of Task Force anyhow? Thomas ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email
