rland traverses on the polar plateau are
verifiable information that can and should be recorded in OpenStreetMap. The
question at hand is how to tag these so that the data in OSM documents in a
well defined way what is and what is not known about the features in question.
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verifiability based on available primary sources.
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apping
to what you believe is most convenient for data users.
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ng. You would end up
with a Wikipedia-like paradigm of "reliable sources" and a constant struggle
for cultural dominance and opinion leadership w.r.t. such features in the OSM
database.
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And we try to record that in a form that is most
efficient for the mapper. Hence the question what additional verifiable
knowledge you intend to record with the additional data structures you propose
to create that is not yet in what we already record today.
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> Anders Torger hat am 13.12.2020 20:08 geschrieben:
>
> [...] I think to actually have them all
> tied together in a unit is still a good idea, [...]
That does not answer my question.
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name=
I am trying to understand what the issue is with the recommendation for mapping
you have received from multiple sides here.
So what exactly is the verifiable knowledge that is supposed to be represented
by your new relation type that is not already recorded in the mapping of
physical featur
nd especially
not cargo cult some complex data model in the hope that data users will turn
this into something meaningful - they won't.
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M that names are typically local
properties and only locally verifiable. The Rhine river is called Rhein in
Koblenz but Rhin in Strasbourg and Rijn in Rotterdam.
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cases where no
or very little pre-existing work exists it is probably wise to start with a
proof-of-concept development before actually planning and working on a
production ready implementation.
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while it turns out
(non-surprisingly in my eyes) that they have neither an interest in above
average cartographic quality nor in substantially sharing methods and
competency in the little work they do in that domain.
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r the status
quo as good enough. "The good enough is an enemy of the great" is a very
common pattern in map style development.
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d against the idea and based on that we
reached consensus that it was a bad idea and it was abandoned.
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> Dave F via Tagging hat am 22.11.2020 17:08
> geschrieben:
>
> [...] OSM-carto demanding boundaries on ways
???
I am smelling fake news here.
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oclc-8322829_g_21.jpg
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that.
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t set by
Google - almost universally ignored this fact does not change it.
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rongly formalizing that in case
of the coastline could be a good idea. But to forgo having a
verifiable definition of the coastline tag supported by consensus is
not a good idea IMO.
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who would be willing to
formulate a generic set of rules based on physical geography criteria
about the natural=coastline placement that reflects your local view as
i have explained please do so - even if you do so in Spanish that would
be very helpful.
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mapper to
observe.
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of physical extent of
surface water cover on this planet (predominantly done with ways tagged
natural=coastline) with culturally defined elements of the geography
(that is using the same tag on ways to represent something not defined
by physical geography criteria).
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ver on this planet
from culturally defined elements of the geography) we can close up shop
right away.
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ained where you think the coastline should be
drawn - what i would like to understand is why, in generic terms and
based on verifiable physical geography criteria.
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etmap-carto/pull/4128
but it seems still contested. Getting this change merged and released
would go a long way towards mappers developing consensus on coastline
placement since it would provide feedback on the coastline position
without favoring a particular placement.
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rld?
If you can do that we can try to have a productive discussion without
delving into the swamp of politics and cultural differences and maybe
can find a consensus position that everyone can be satisfied with.
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de
> la Plata and Atlantic Ocean [9][10]
>
> If you choose to map this riverbank as coastline, is just mapping for
> convenience (for convenience of the renderer), to see the world map
> as you prefer to see it, but it is not modelling the world as it is.
>
> By the way, the pr
:
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/WK9
and it stayed tagged as natural=coastline until you changed that in:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/20290034
After that there were countless attempts to move up the coastline
closure again - all of which however were soon reverted.
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ion seem to view
natural=coastline to mean and what mappers in other parts of the world
have in mind there. My request for you to formulate a universal rule
is meant to gauge that difference and evaluate options for a consensus.
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iscussion. That would at least avoid people
voting yes out of group-think, political allegiance or as a personal
favor without having contemplated the merit of the proposal and of
voices opposing it.
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m sure we could manage to translate.
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s failed to show up in the map.
See for example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2805665
Hence the Rio de la Plata matter turned into kind of a self aggravating
problem.
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ld certainly very much improve if we had
visual feedback on the water differentiation in OSM-Carto:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/4128
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e shore over the course of the year as long as their perspective
is not dominated by political considerations (i.e. they are able to
look at this purely from a physical geography perspective).
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he rendering of piers to be more
distinct, possibly more like a footway bridge:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2652
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3459
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transport any additional information is something we
typically try to avoid.
2) There are no parts of the Earth that are not covered by a mapped area
since the global coastline divides the Earth surface into land (on the
left of the coastline) and ocean (on the right of the coastline).
;-)
-
wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Landschaft_AnysbergPICT1454.JPG
We definitely do not want such areas to be engrossed in some
generic 'unvegetated or sparsely vegetated area' classification.
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Tagging ma
ion in the primary tag could give OSM a
huge advantage over other data sources which don't make such a distinction.
There are quite a lot of use cases (both cartographic and analytic) where this
distinction when made consistently is of high value.
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ts navigability,
specifying that would be a valuable supplemental tag.
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and
meaningful tag. Maybe you can show some on-the-ground examples of areas you
think this tag is suitable and needed for and get input from the wider
community how they would suggest to characterize and tag such areas.
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.
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called a qanat or an
> Undergroundwatertransfersystemfedfromawellandwithverticalmaintenanceshafts
> (as it might be named in some languages) but what it actually is.
Then we are in agreement i think.
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as it is perceived my English speakers.
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in the classifications used locally just as
we are used to doing it in Europe and North America.
Most existing uses of man_made=qanat by the way are in combination with
waterway=canal.
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tags that already indicate things you have
formulated. Invent new tags when needed. Clarify documentation of
existing tags when needed.
The third step - formulating your classification in abstract form
*before* you assess if existing tags are suitable - is key here.
he major consensus narrative of the mapper's
culture.
I have written in more detail about the problems of this idea some time
ago in
http://blog.imagico.de/verifiability-and-the-wikipediarization-of-openstreetmap/
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IMO not specific to name
tagging but more about a fairly fundamental division within the OSM
community about the basic premise of the project.
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n blame it on the
corporations/organizations that have lobbied successfully against more
meaningful regulation of said activities.
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new tagging.
We always try to avoid that because it never works towards a more
consistent tagging but only perpetualizes the use of both tags as
synonyms because mappers get feedback that both tags are correct.
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barriers again but it might be a better idea - as Joseph
indicated - to use a different tag than for linear barriers to avoid
confusion. Using the same tag for 1d and 2d representations always
bears the potential for problems (like leisure=track for example).
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ng and we now get criticized for trying to fix this
counterproductive incentive.
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ing hedges with polygons in the first place - as i
have shown with various links earlier.
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t;
> Ummm, wasn't me. I don't recall seeing another Paul post on this on
> the tagging list, but I don't always pay full attention to the
> identities of posters.
Oh, sorry - i meant Paul Norman on the OSM-Carto issue tracker.
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=ditch, leisure=playground, area=yes
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way. That would mean following Paul's
suggestion here and dropping rendering of barrier=* on polygons all
together.
Do you think this would be an improvement compared to the current
rendering?
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turning a closed way tagged barrier=hedge + area=yes into a
multipolygon releation (for adding an interior ring) change rendering?
* why does removing the unnecessary area=yes from a closed way tagged
barrier=hedge + area=yes + leisure=playground change the ren
i means the only alternative that has
even a remote chance for consensus among the maintainers.
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ve for those if it is being
used consistently by mappers.
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rg/#map=15/48.8437/6.2252
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/52.8414/8.4571
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/53.9644/11.0538
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/51.9532/-0.1199
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/44.8335/40.0695
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umarole, natural=hot_spring etc.).
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exist.
Reason for the lack of verifiability is that what an active volcano is
in almost all uses of this term does not depend on the current state of
the volcano but on its history - most commonly during the holocene (10k
years) or during historic times.
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cal reasons.
Therefore i did not pursue it further. But anyone is welcome to take
it up again.
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uilding them from the same coastline ways that are used to map the
individual islands is the established method for mapping them.
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ee:
* presence and nature of regular passenger flight service
* openness to public from the air
* access restrictions on the ground
* presence of services for airplanes
* surface and length of the runway
And not in the proposal but a useful property:
* restrictions to certain types of p
country OTOH i would consider
that simply a bad idea.
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+ landuse:secondary=meadow
* creating one or more region specific secondary tags for exising
primary tags like landuse=farmland or landuse=orchard for documenting
the region specific ecological characteristics of the area.
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the
wiki no matter where it is and remove everything that is not strictly
documenting the de facto meaning of tags in the OSM database the result
would be a pretty compact body of documentation.
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fining element of a beach.
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sily found by other mappers that would massively emphasize tag
proliferation since mappers will repeatedly invent new and different
tags for certain things because they are unaware that another mapper
has already invented a tag for this.
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l defined and
intuitively usable mapping scheme.
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to determine an
aggregate score of some sort from them and a categorization based on
that.
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storic development that might
be technically challenging).
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rast to the verbalized
documentation of tags - which can exist in any language or set of
languages independent of each others the idea of a tag status is that
of a single status defined by authority over the global OSM community.
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properly assess this,
the block history of user ulamm:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ulamm/blocks
And the OSMF ban policy describing the procedures regarding such
actions:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Ban_Policy
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d are not really a good medium to handle this
kind of topic.
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ded.
Given that the reasons why we have and should keep the verifiability
principle have been discussed really extensively this all seems frankly
a bit opportunistic.
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ject could be useful. It would encourage
everyone to contemplate their replies more thoroughly and not engage in
back-and forth two person dialogs - for which this kind of mailing list
with a large number of subscribers is not really the ideal place.
--
ast majority of mappers and developers in
OSM simply are from urban environments in Europe and North America
which brings an inherent bias with it. How well OSM-Carto manages to
fulfill its function to create a map for the whole OSM community to a
large extent depends on how well we manage to comp
=yes as a standalone tag or with
man_made=embankment + embankment=both or embankment=two_sided.
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ere - i have said what i said and
not what you have read into that.
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what conditions you have to
fulfill is very helpful in encouraging people taking the initiative to
start such a project.
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On Friday 24 May 2019, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> On 5/24/19 6:04 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> > This is evidently something that is becoming more and more
> > important as OSM grows as a project and it becomes increasingly
> > difficult for a single person to be knowledgab
lity and willingness in those fields to
yield decision making to others who are more qualified.
This is evidently something that is becoming more and more important as
OSM grows as a project and it becomes increasingly difficult for a
single person to be knowledgable about every aspect of it.
two -
maritime boundaries are never geometrically identical to water
polygons. The tag maritime=yes is exactly fitting here - this is to
indicate a water polygon ecologically belongs to the maritime domain.
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ight, inner radius and outer
radius.
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ction
between 'legal' real world stairs and ones that might exist but are not
allowed to exist because the algorithm can't deal with them.
But in general testing the suitability of a data model by testing its
usability in practical interpretation is a good approach.
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On Sunday 28 April 2019, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> [...]
>
> Seriously?
>
> Because one polygon is not a verifiable representation of a certain
> feature you want to replace it with - drumroll - two polygons?
I am sorry if that came across more dismissive than necessary - i was
d of course the suggestion that proper and precise
documentation helps applies to recording of geometries as well - not
only to tags.
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placement for formulating the
general abstract idea behind verifiability in a compact form that is
not tied to specific examples. Andy's idea of creating subpages
explaining how to practically apply verifiability to tags and
geometries is probably the right approach.
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o
define it more precisely it would almost certainly be advisable to use
a different tag that is not misleading the mapper to have a much
broader scope.
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ink it helps concentrating on the arguments and not so
much on the people who make them.
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of the geographic reality as you see
it and i also see why you have a general preference for representing
these things in the OSM database with polygons. But i also see very
good reasons why you should change your position on that - some of
which i explained in my comments here. I could be
images to resolve the situation or we can consult
people with local knowledge.
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rom Cape Horn to
the closest point in the Antarctic (on the South Shetland Islands).
But as already hinted i am not sure if the Drake Passage is something i
would consider mappable in OSM based on local knowledge. Of course as
long as it was mapped with a simple node it did not really bother
a
nt - you verify the information on the ground and if there is
still disagreement it is by definition something that is not verifiable
(because several mappers evaluating the situation independently do not
consistently come to the same results).
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le to verbally communicate with each other
is quite remarkable. But this amazing cross cultural cooperation
hinges on on the local verifiability of those things people map.
Adding large scale concepts to the database that are not verifiable
based on local knowledge means throwing a wrench into the
map them
> leads to other sources being used.
Exactly. We need to establish that there are things outside the scope
of OSM for which you need other projects to collect data about them.
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ultures world
wide without creating an imperialistic dominance of some cultures over
others.
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ural=mesa with
appropriately tight definitions: Both being surrounded on all sides by
cliffs or very steep slopes, buttes with a height larger than width and
mesas with a flat top (i.e. height variation across the top being
significantly smaller than the total height).
--
Christoph Hor
and tight definition for them and not a generic tag
for any elevated region.
In any case i think the most valuable thing to map of any of such is the
constituent elements and aspects of it like natural=cliff,
natural=arete, natural=peak, natural=bare_rock, natural=scree etc.
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ery unlikely that software developers are
going to open the can of worms of interpreting relations that have
other relations as members. Especially for tools that need to deal
with differential data updates like osm2pgsql.
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