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On Jun 10, 2015, at 12:15 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:
On Tue Jun 9 16:06:40 2015 GMT+0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2015-06-09 14:37 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org:
How would you tag a shop that sells tax stamps and licenses, but is not a
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On Jun 10, 2015, at 12:40 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:
On Tue Jun 9 16:26:36 2015 GMT+0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
you can use them universally for payments of government taxes and fees,
typically you have to stick them onto forms or other documents to make
On Jun 9, 2015, at 9:25 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
P brands (Arco, Amoco, BP, Aral, am/pm, Wild Bean) usually make you go inside
anyway and don't let you pay at the pump.
A long time ago the self pumps were crap - but i have never seen pufdles of
fuel anywhere.
Now
On Jun 8, 2015, at 8:05 PM, Dominik George n...@naturalnet.de wrote:
Hi,
I guess I need a solution for the path access too - because
access=private also seems an incorrect label - or would both be
covered by access=inder-building ?
just out of curiosity, what would happen if you *did*
basis.
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drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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On Jun 7, 2015, at 4:18 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
wrote:
Am 07.06.2015 um 01:27 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com:
Some consider Golf, Fishing, Stamp and Coin collecting as hobbies.
yes, others map making, barrel jumping, surfing,
the
value is being selected, we need to stick close to natural language, not
magic numbers.
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John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
On June 6, 2015 5:31
On Jun 6, 2015, at 10:34 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
wrote:
(table gaming, adventures, Cosplay, ...) in hobby, but in toys. I agree for
subtags.
All of those are hobbies. They have dedicated stores for each. They are filled
with adults, spending unglodly amounts of
I'm
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On Jun 7, 2015, at 8:27 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
Some consider Golf, Fishing, Stamp and Coin collecting as hobbies.
Any activity that you don't do for a job can be considered a hobby.
But some activities fall into broader groups, usually based on
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 7, 2015, at 9:26 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:
presenting a mapper with a list of choices such as photo1, photo2, and photo3
is likely to result in corrupted data, due to a mapper picking one at random,
Remember the epic discussion on track type
What if the shop sells both photo gear and frames?
--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
On June 4, 2015 10:11:26 PM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com
as X within a geographical area.
--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
On June 5, 2015 4:43:51 AM Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote:
shop=tea
is frequently not possible.
On 06/05/2015 01:31 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 5:40 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com
mailto:j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:
There is an obvious limit to the number of types of icons that can
be rendered on any one map before it becomes
Yea - in America hobby shops like the wikipedia entry exist - they are
model/rc/train/craft stores - they have a mix of all the types - they are not a
specific specialty store, which exist too.
Generic shop:
http://goo.gl/maps/cy4I2 hobby people
Just model trains:
http://goo.gl/maps/p9D3n
Also, there are a lot of so-called hobby shops that carry supplies for
decorative crafts such as beading, embroidery, and jewelry making.
--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot
drive out hate; only love can do
On Jun 5, 2015, at 12:10 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
then it should be tagged shop=photo; frame
Is the semicolon okay to use in shop=* ?
Or will that start another Holy War?
Javbw
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On Jun 4, 2015, at 11:20 PM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:
I have no objection to users tagging in their local language. I also have no
objection to those users also using tags in a language that has been agreed
upon for use in an international context
There was some 25 year old Japan government GIS data they imported for the
woods outlines that looks like it has about a 20-30m accuracy, and has some
wild offsets compared to the road data.
The biggest problem is that i live on the edge of the wilderness, and the
outline is a giant relation
should only be available to those fluent in the local language or languages?
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John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
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drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
On June 3, 2015 7:18:57 PM
the ground truth that objects fit into more than one category.
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Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot
drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
On June 3, 2015 7:25:15 PM Andreas Goss andi...@t
Im mapping out in Japan, and there are wood polygons (and relations)
everywhere.
I often add detail on exactly where the borders are (farms, roads, etc) -
Is there anything wrong with correctly mapping the borders of the blobs of
woods (and doubling the number of nodes) if its correct?
Javbw
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On Jun 3, 2015, at 10:46 PM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 11:50 AM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote:
How many people are going to understand that I need a “wooden home goods”
shop tag? There is an old traditional store that sells all the
Some businesses that were formerly in the film-developing trade have
shifted over into producing prints from digital photos. The
professional-grade color printers produce noticeably better results than
consumer-grade printers do.
--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot
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On Jun 4, 2015, at 9:18 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
On 4 June 2015 at 00:59, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:
Its been an uphill battle to get even the most basic (read: required)
Japanese mapping conventions accepted. Traffic light
The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a
oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is
one-way or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using
one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way.
--
John F
+1 to Martin
Really super large fountains (like the one in front of the Bellagiao(?) in
LasVegas is giant, and mapping the nozzles is possible - but a nozzle is not an
amenity. But the fountain itself is a fountain (and landmark), which places it
in amenity.
Perhaps a fountain sub-key
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On Jun 1, 2015, at 7:52 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
Perhaps a fountain sub-key
Fountain=*
For the nozzles, lights, water fill, water return, shut-off/control box, and
filter set is a good idea (even if most of those are unrendered), for
fountain
On May 31, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
wrote:
hat's the kind of tags we can use to describe this situation, if it doesn't
help, maybe you have to be even more specific with the value?
Im saying that unless the building is of particular significance,
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On May 29, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote:
W dniu 29.05.2015 3:54, John Willis napisał(a):
Currently, building=industrial +landuse=industrial has usurped
man_made=works completely.
I think of building=industrial like a building=church - it's
That is just one of the common meanings of dock. Another common meaning is
as a synonym for pier, an above-water structure used to give access to a ship.
On May 29, 2015 3:41:23 AM Malcolm Herring malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com
wrote:
On 29/05/2015 08:41, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
Why is this
On May 29, 2015, at 7:35 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
There are no man made trees in
the forest, they all grow naturally.
Man can plant a natural tree - or it could self-seed.
In osm there is a distinction between cultivated and constructed. We already do
this will all
Pole without a pole = pole? I am confused. What sort of structure are you
describing?
On May 29, 2015 5:48:33 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
On 29 May 2015 at 05:47, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:
according to this wiki page there is a difference between
Zip codes, in the USA, are the same way. They are intended for the post
office's routing, and don't necessarily correspond to administrative
divisions of the land. A given plot of land may be in one administrative
division for tax purposes, yet be lumped into a neighboring division for
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On May 29, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:
Although not the type of amenity estate agents usually describe.
[pure speculation on my part] that is because the amenity tag originally was
for the amenities of a town.
Over time, as tagging
On May 30, 2015, at 12:41 AM, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote:
But if not, we have no system, just historical cases and a lot of exceptions.
I think it's time to try to make some rules instead.
I though there was some tag prefix like disused: or abandoned: that could be
used with the
On May 29, 2015, at 11:02 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
And that ties in nicely with my thoughts of removing the words and generating
tags and values by symbols !
Mapping by emoji! Just put a hot dog symbol in the hot-dog stand!
^_^
For getting data into the database
On May 28, 2015, at 4:52 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
wrote:
while man_made covers technical structures and facilities (like factories,
chimneys, flagpoles, lighthouses, silos, ...).
If there is one big change I would like to make it would be to greatly reduce
the
One case where covered would be appropriate would be a highway or railway
in the mountains, where a slanted roof is above the way to protect against
falling rocks and/or avalanches. I remember encountering such in the Swiss
Alps.
On May 28, 2015 6:46:21 PM pmailkeey .
On May 28, 2015, at 6:22 PM, AYTOUN RALPH ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com wrote:
And with this argument for a hierarchical approach we are back to the start
point of umbrella tags that cover all possibilities which is
landuse=educational as a polygon encompassing the whole area and the
Also, large industrial facilities may have all mail delivered to a central
office, yet have separate street addresses for individual buildings for
delivering goods.
On May 28, 2015 9:21:44 AM Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:
In the UK we have postal addresses which are for Royal
Did you forget to add any comments?
On May 26, 2015 6:58:49 AM wp4...@gmail.com wrote:
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On May 25, 2015, at 6:53 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
wrote:
Am 24.05.2015 um 14:36 schrieb John Willis jo...@mac.com:
I always thought a cascade is a series of waterfalls connected together.
I thought it was a word for a single waterfall as well...
The water
The level key is intended for OSM internal use, to tell routing and
rendering software what connects to what. For indoor mapping, it would make
sense to also have a way to name floors, which needs to allow for both
numeric and non-numeric floor names. I have been in buildings that have
more
The ele tag is for indicating the elevation of an object above sea level.
Not many people will know the elevation of each of a building's floors
above sea level.
On May 25, 2015 8:30:26 AM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
On 25 May 2015 at 14:08, Andrew Errington
Yes, I object. The purpose of the level tag is to tell routing and
rendering software what the vertical order of objects is. It indicates
what connects to what, and, if they don't connect, what renders above what.
It is not intended to hold floor names.
On May 24, 2015 6:42:03 PM pmailkeey
In the USA, a dog park is an area of a public park, often enclosed by a
fence, where you are allowed to play with your dog off-leash. In other
sections of the park, or in an entire park if no section is designated as a
dog park, you are likely to be cited and fined for letting your dog run
We will need to use different tags for the two concepts, however.
On May 25, 2015 3:43:47 PM pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
On 25 May 2015 at 19:32, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:
In the USA, a dog park is an area of a public park, often enclosed by
a fence, where
I always thought a cascade is a series of waterfalls connected together.
Wether that is natural or artificial, I'm not sure there's a distinction.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/MobileViewPhoto-g298182-d1311890-i131738347-Ryuzu_Waterfall-Nikko_Tochigi_Prefecture_Kanto.html
I've visited a lot of
There is an organization already tracking crowd-sourced reports of needed
repairs, SeeClickFix. I have used this to report issues such as blocked
street drains. The local Public Works department monitors these reports and
marks them closed once the needed repairs have been done.
On May 24,
Electric outlets that have a USB-style connector, for charging cell phones
and other portable devices, are fairly new. I don't recall seeing any until
about a year ago. So, there is not yet a common name for them, to
distinguish them from conventional electric outlets that offer only 120V
AC.
The water feature we are talking about here is an artificial waterfall,
usually pump-driven.
On May 22, 2015 9:19:44 AM Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 02:00:30PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Am 22.05.2015 um 13:35 schrieb Andy Mabbett
://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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for the general
public.
On May 15, 2015 2:32:25 AM CDT, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:
Since so may people in Japan travel with small dogs, most parking
areas and many service areas have pet areas (I think they are
called), where you can let your dog out of the car and walk them or
let them
Since so may people in Japan travel with small dogs, most parking areas and
many service areas have pet areas (I think they are called), where you can
let your dog out of the car and walk them or let them deficate. This is not an
enclosed space - there are no fences or facilities.
They are
The real question is:
At what scale is the Amenity an amenity of something?
This variable answer is the source of he confusion.
At the beginning, it was the amenity of the town. Amenity=school and
amenity=hospital is a great example.
But tagging complexity quickly grew in some objects (and
+1
Unless it is an amenity of a larger place,
Like a Willy Wonka ice cream pool where you can just scoop ice cream out of
with your hand - that's an amenity.
A shop sells things. Like ice cream.
I already described a shop that sells ice cream takeaway only (and not soft
serve or scooped) -
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In American usage, gravel refers to both rounded and unrounded stones of
similar size. For example, concrete often makes use of crushed stone in the
gravel size; it is angular rather than rounded. Pea gravel is often used as an
ornamental surface layer for concrete, but not for use within a
This is a group doing some kind of specialized mapping for their pilots.
We' discussing the best way for them to tag things for their use.
This is not a tag all the soccer pitches helicopters could land on
discussion.
Javbw
On May 11, 2015, at 8:00 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
In the same way, there is a tradition of boiled cookies in the USA, that are
on the borderline between cookies (biscuits, in British terminology) and candy.
They involve a sticky, sweetened grain, most commonly oatmeal (rolled oats).
Here is an example:
In the USA, such signs are more commonly at or near the edge of the community,
so that you see what community you are entering, rather than at its center.
Also, while some communities have a public square, not all do so.
On May 8, 2015 4:50:37 AM CDT, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)
Speaking as an American, I would refer to that as a mix of cobbles and setts
(some of the stones in the photo look rounded, some squared, and some
irregular). They appear ti be about the size of a human palm. I think of
pebbles as rocks of finger-diameter or less, such as the pea gravel often
This is definitely something that needs a site survey.
On May 11, 2015 6:00:29 AM CDT, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
There are a number of reasons we shouldn't tag random places as
potential
emergency helipads:
- Ground conditions
- overhead obstructions
- don't think we're
Minor nitpick: desserts are sweet foods, usually eaten at the end of a meal.
Deserts are areas with little rainfall, and sparse or no vegetation.
On May 11, 2015 6:17:08 PM CDT, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/05/2015, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote:
Pastry-only shops
You show your membership card at the door for entry, and again at purchase. All
services and purchases are tied to your membership account.
There are some regulations that prevent certain kinds of business from being
membership based - so the pharmacy in the U.S. And Japan (don't know about
That's the argument on why I can't put brake pads on my car in Japan.
I can't buy anything but air filters, batteries, motor oil in Japan - so car
parts stores are either jammed full of accessories or you are buying through a
trade/wholesale supplier who knows you are a certified mechanic
On May 10, 2015, at 1:31 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
It seems that the destination sign tagging is a bit European-specific in
expecting signs to have only one border, back and arrow color. That makes it
a little hard to tag signs like these multicolored phenomenons:
On May 9, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
Wholesale implies a large quantity of goods, they sell in quantity (the
quantity may be over some time, say a year).
Then wholesale is an subtag on the shop, since it doesn't describe what they
are selling, right?
There are
On May 9, 2015, at 4:00 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote:
On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Andrew MacKinnon andrew...@gmail.com wrote:
I propose to create the tag shop=wholesale for stores that sell
large quantities of merchandise in bulk, such as Costco and Sam's
Club.
There are several RV based camps in the mountains of San Diego that are large
camps with amenities, stores, fishing pond, and other things. Yes, there is
tent camping, but the major focus is the people staying (longer than a day) in
their RV and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever around
I am using K-9, an open-source Android app.
On May 5, 2015 6:35:40 PM CDT, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net wrote:
On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 18:22 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote:
It has been many years since I last went tent-camping, but my
experience of campgrounds in the US national park
It has been many years since I last went tent-camping, but my experience of
campgrounds in the US national park system was numbered poles marking each
campsite, a grassy area for pitching a tent, and a charcoal grill mounted on a
steel pole. You weren't allowed to cut brush or to have a fire on
:06 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:
On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 5:36 PM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:
I think this will best handled in operator for existing camp sites (plus
access=private) or possibly make a separate tag under school= for the
school camps - as those
.
-1
Too easily confused with campgrounds.
Yep, +1
The core difference between a summer camp and a campground is that
the former has organized communal activities,
and probably one or more themes (kids, religion, archery, etc.), and
probably restrictions on arrival and departure
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On May 2, 2015, at 2:32 AM, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote:
electronics says Tandy / Radio Shack / Maplin to me - with
components, boards and soldering irons and cables/connectors.
For me that would be electronic_parts or electronic_components these
days.
+1 -
discretion and will vary from year to
year.
Phil (trigpoint )
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out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
___
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On Apr 30, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote:
I chose addr:housenumber because that's perfectly set up for routers
That sounds like “tagging for the renderer” to me. I find it distasteful to
reuse part of the addr:* namespace for this but if it must be done
The very large train stations in Tokyo have traditional meeting points, as a
popular one would be near the Hachiko statue in Shibuya. I believe they are
signed.
I think the meeting point has a name beyond meeting point, so would it be
okay to name I of it has an actual name beyond its
The fire type is most important, but depending on the material used, it can be
used on several types -
So +1 for tagging the material first and foremost.
Most common household extinguishers in the US are dry powder ABC extinguishers.
At the bottom of the #united states section is a conversion
with the wording for basic, the first thing I thought about
was the legality or designation of the spot, thinking it would
influence the camp_site= level - when it fact it is all inside the
camp_type proposal.
You will have to help me here John, I don't quite see what you are
trying to achieve
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On Apr 24, 2015, at 7:01 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote:
to me using
e-cigarettes *is* smoking.
+1
An i-phone is still considered a phone.
The rules governing e-cigs will stem from smoking in most places.
I'm not going to include BBQs in smoking
On Apr 24, 2015, at 8:46 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
they look at the colour.
I agree that the letter codes wouldn't be used when looking for an
extinguisher, but it is used for managing them. The color codes are not
universal either.
Also, here in Japan there are hello kitty
Seems great !
Javbw
On Apr 24, 2015, at 9:52 AM, David Bannon dban...@internode.on.net wrote:
On Fri, 2015-04-24 at 06:47 +0900, John Willis wrote:
I don't want people to map known illegal camp sites or places they just
happened to spend the night and think are nice
at 10:47 AM, John F. Eldredge
j...@jfeldredge.com
wrote:
The location of the deepest channel can change over time, as
mudbanks or
sandbanks shift position. This is why commercial vessels operating
on
rivers frequently rely upon a succession of pilots, each familiar
with a
particular
?
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Darkness cannot drive out
I haven't been back to America for a while, but the no smoking signs had and
e-cigarettes added to the bottom when I was back last year.
It may not be technically a cigarette, but it is perceived to be in the same
family as other things that protrude from your mouth and allow for nicotine
I had a question about basic -
I understand it's amenity level (flat spot + access) but the legality bit being
the only qualifier:
Would it just be for places that are somehow signed as for camping(designated),
places where camping is legal and common (informal [yet legally allowed]
existing
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Trials often overlap with other trails, fire roads (tracks) and may actually be
tracks for most of the path until it turns off near the top of a peak or goes
away from a restricted access zone.
The Subashiri route on Mt Fuji is a pedestrian road, steps, trail, track,
trail.. Etc as it
let people know there are likely to
be arrows flying around.
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 7:19 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:
I've usually seen leisure=pitch used with archery. Scanning through the few
features tagged with leisure=range, they appear to all be shooting ranges.
The only
I've usually seen leisure=pitch used with archery. Scanning through the few
features tagged with leisure=range, they appear to all be shooting ranges.
The only big difference between them is the noise level and the length of the
projectile. They both have designated stands for the
Maybe this is a good value for entrance? Or is entrance only for buildings and
related structures?
Entrance=trailhead?
Also, as I understand it, a trailhead can be the name of an area at the
beginning for a route (with parking and other amenities) - or do we cant to
make a new area as well
There are archery ranges as well - do we want to follow the pitch model and
have it defined by sport
Leisure=range
Sport=archery / sport=archery
Or
Leisure=archery_range
Leisure=shooting_range
?
FYI, these can be completely indoor facilities, so you should be able to put
them on
I would tag
sport=shooting as an area for preference .. that being the physical area
where the shooting takes place.
It should be used with some other tag .. say leisure=pitch? Pity the wiki
does not specify it!
Usually we have names for the area where things take place (pitch, track,
On Apr 13, 2015, at 1:01 AM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote:
Question is if we should to some retagging with shooting=paintball
We don't have basketball=soccer, so I think it should be retagged. ^_^
Javbw
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Leisure=range
Sport=*
Any place where you setup targets to practice marksmanship (with possibility
of death if entered) should be a range.
But maybe they are tying to pattern it after golf where the facilities and
greens and whatnot are tagged as golf=*
~~~
Paintball would be... More
other languages besides Italian, which is broken also
for many other symbols ;-)
cheers
Martin
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John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness
If it's 42 f, you'd go into hypothermia almost instantly. =}
Assuming c unless explicit should be enough for mapping.
Javbw
On Apr 12, 2015, at 8:23 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/04/2015 4:50 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
On 9 April 2015 at 01:52, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:39 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
wrote:
...but when there is a tag explicitly telling that the entrance is of a
staircase type then I'd expect it not to be the main entrance (otherwise it
would have been tagged as main, I'd
The most common door to be mapped is a fire door (often signed emergency exit
in America), and some kind of escape, like access from underground to street
level for a subway evacuation.
Japan has a lot of elevated motorways on pillars, with noise walls, so
essentially you're driving in a
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