[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:
>
> ... maybe I don't fully understand what you mean with it? The thing is, 
> WHO would do this outreaching? You? How? E-mail people? As someone who is 
> concerned about the TW project I'd really appreciate that but wouldn't 
> count on it being a long lasting effort (or am I wrong?).
>

Ciaoi Mat,

I mean the kind of thing that in the thread on Gaming, in process... 

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/kSh3AVQBcwk

I think its a clear example of a "demand area" that if a bit of energy is 
put into would fruit far better than leaving it without doing that. 

By pro-actively noticing some demand work can evolve from being implicit 
to  EXPLICIT. It opens up more than if you treat everything the same. 
"Marketing" is an active process based on guesses about demand. I think the 
"Games Case" is substantive instance that is currently in our faces already 
and that TW uptake in that field could be far greater IF we can help supply 
appropriate "products".

Josiah

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter

Yeah, the point would be to offer "entry points" to TW for those who would 
not otherwise find it. I think it is much about offering "editions" but, as 
you allude to, I'd say it is also about making people find these which 
would require some kind of organizational structure. 

I hope to look into github one of these days to see how the use of it as a 
serving platform would work. Danielo has previously made efforts to 
simplify publishing TW on github. I'm guessing that if there was a 
concerted effort to publish such "TW entries" in a single place like 
github, then this would be advantageous in search engines (anybody knows?). 
Also because it is a well (for coders) well known system, I think it could 
be well supported within our community. I.e we could "easily" establish 
workflows to help people publish their applications. But the major 
advantage is probably that it enables shared development, issue reporting 
etc. Unfortunately, github is also difficult to learn, at least for me, so 
I'm hoping someone comes up with an even better alternative.

So, yes, my thoughts are very much about getting organized. But the first 
step is of course to define it all and that is why I'm hoping for more 
input and ideas about it. 

As for "active outreach", I frankly don't have this in mind. But maybe I 
don't fully understand what you mean with it? The thing is, WHO would do 
this outreaching? You? How? E-mail people? As someone who is concerned 
about the TW project I'd really appreciate that but wouldn't count on it 
being a long lasting effort (or am I wrong?).

In contrast, if we get an "entry point" infrastructure set up then this 
could last a long time... at least in my mind. The major practical weakness 
in my vision is that I'm likely not capable to create such an 
infrastructure myself. This is also why I'm asking for ideas. Were someone 
to e.g convince me that setting something up on TiddlySpot is really the 
best such infrastructure, then I might just be able to do it myself... but 
I can see many disadvantages with TS for this so I doubt it is a good 
alternative.


<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

I revisited this thread. Re-read it and sat with it.

I think its very interesting. Some excellent comments highly pertinent to 
better uptake of TiddlyWiki. Many good thoughts are in it.

I just want to underline its about TWO major things that need 
differentiating IMO...

1 - I think what YOU were asking about is NOT "marketing" with a big "M". 
Rather its a call to "*get better organised*" ... make the process of 
taking on TW easier (a) in general and (b) specifically by providing easier 
access to "finished products" with obvious utilitarian function (e.g. 
Organiser; Mapper; Knitting Schemer; Piano; Kinship Charts etc).

2 - Talking more towards MARKETING with a big "M", I think that is more 
about *active outreach* (hopefully building off capability at [1]) to 
distinct types of use and assist package solutions for that need. Right now 
GAMING, of various types, seems in the "demand" region that is unaddressed, 
as yet.

Thoughts
@TiddlyTweeter

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:
>
>  "marketing" TW - at least what I mean with it - simply means to put 
> the product "out there" so that more people can use it and engage in its 
> development. In fact,  
> we need 
> people here 
>

You may be interested to know that demand for "Tiddlers" is a  consistently 
growing trend. Especially under the Category "Shopping": 
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?cat=18=all=tiddler
FWIW, Josiah 

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[Mat]

On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 8:46:04 AM UTC+2, Jel wrote:
>
> I'll expand on this from general principles, in fact.
> To make an operation work, management theory somewhat flippantly looks at 
> bringing a set of Ms together in a harmonious balance, inputs which produce 
> output. Men, Money, Machines, Materials, Methods, Marketing, Motivation, 
> Madness - the list goes on and on. Marketing's in there, for sure, but it 
> doesn't rule the roost as the MadMen would like. You use machines, tools, 
> to turn materials into product. The basic lifecycle is start>loop (Inputs, 
> Output, Storage)>end. Storage included things like all forms of asset, ie 
> bank balances, stock, you name it. It balances Output-Input, ie growth. 
> Marketing simply targets one part of the output, it isn't the output, nor 
> is it anything else, oither than a cost reducing the bank balances in hand.
> Never ever mix input and output up. That's a con-job, and illegal, it was 
> seen off in the early 1970s.
> Does TW need marketing? Not in the way you propose. Perhaps some of TW's 
> tools which focus on the specific sub-classes of what TW produces (the 
> ideas you list may do, but the most TW needs in the way of marketing is to 
> maintain presence. Your sub-instantiation shows you neither understand the 
> product, nor have the experience to correct your understanding yourself. 
> You should have asked WHY it doesn't do what you want. That would have 
> taught you something about yourself, that you have to put effort in to get 
> what you need. Instead, you want to take over the world so you don't have 
> to. Cruise missiles have just visited one of the more notable protagonists 
> of that argument. Let me in conclusion offer you another managemnt truism: 
> just as there's a triangle in physics, Speed=Distance/Time, so there is in 
> marketing, Speed=Cost/Beauty. If you want instant gratification, then it'll 
> cost you. As the Syrians have just discovered: I hope they feel it was 
> worth it.
> So how do you translate your marketing aspiration to your personal goal? 
> If the wheels aren't out there already, you do what the rest of us did, you 
> build one, or make a better one. And that doesn't mean sitting there hoping 
> someone will do it for you, it means rolling up your sleeves and learning 
> how to make something better, the message being that God helps those who 
> help themselves. Or in a more secular society, there ain't no such thing as 
> a free lunch.
> So as a final thought, here is a Round Tuit 
> .
>  
> Make the most of it.  
>

LOL!

...either what you say is true.
Or you've simply misunderstood what it is "I want" (probably from not 
reading my posts properly).

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[Mat]

Jel, thanks for making me smile. 

If I felt the nature of TW was threatened, I'd react in the same way. But 
"marketing" TW - at least what I mean with it - simply means to put the 
product "out there" so that more people can use it and engage in its 
development. In fact,  
we need 
people here. Your contributions to TW, made even before TW existed, are 
clearly exceptional but the rest of us had to *find out* about TW in order 
to use and contribute to it today. We can have our little Mona Lisa hidden 
in our little closet or we can at least attempt to make it known to the 
world so more people can enjoy it. It is not *either* a beautiful product *or 
*a product that many people like - it is both.

if you're so brilliant in your omniscient knowledge, go play in your own 
> sandpit and produce something better. Tiddlywiki succeeds precisely BECAUSE 
> it isn't specific:to a need.


Yes! In my omniscient brilliance I am looking for exactly that; that we 
create specialized 'sandpits' and we make these easily found ("we market 
them"). That way, people have a chance to get to know about (real) TW which 
they probably would not do otherwise.

Now Jel, I'm REALLY curious what your ideas are for how we should get more 
people to use TW and to contribute to its development? Clearly, just having 
a "great product" is not enough in this time of information overflow. As 
you can tell, I'm not a professional marketer nor a competent coder, nor do 
I have as much experience as you do. So, please share your actual ideas how 
to make more people come to join the TW project. Or, better yet, don't jus 
hare ideas but help out with implementig them!

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[TonyM]

Jel,

I feel I have to respond to this, because it is somewhat harsh and projects 
onto members of this community things from elsewhere we are not responsible 
for.

We get tiddlywiki, and we want to share it with others, we know from 
experience there are many different ways people come to know what 
tiddlywiki is and that even once discovered it takes time to understand its 
many capabilities and possibilities.

All we want to do is spread the word and if the word marketing offends you, 
well sorry, but none of us felt it politically incorrect to use it.

We share the same passion for tiddlywiki written in your words by you, and 
many of us may share your contempt of hollow commercial marketeers that 
dumb down the most beautiful and complex things we love. 

I am simply not sure you should be projecting your disquiet about the world 
on to people you clearly do not seem to know. At least not well enough to 
risk insult, people who I would expect to be your friends.

I for one are building tools and plugins, and expect they will "promote" 
tiddlywiki, and perhaps even attract other passionate community members, as 
the plugins, adaptions, editions and solutions before me.

Perhaps the use of a fictitious straw-man would have being a good literary 
device. 

Regards
Tony 

On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 3:43:15 PM UTC+10, Jel wrote:
>
>
> NO! Tiddlywiki is a tool, not a con. Sorry, marketeers, this tool is as 
> attractive as a lathe - and lathes can be very attractive to someone who 
> knows and appreciates their features and facilities. If you know how to use 
> a lathe, you can make something, or a tool to make something, which *is* 
> defined by a market need, the same here. But the market does NOT define the 
> tool. So clear off, marketing men, stop trying to take *everything* over 
> with your variants in The Kings New Clothes:if you're so brilliant in your 
> omniscient knowledge, go play in your own sandpit and produce something 
> better. Tiddlywiki succeeds precisely BECAUSE it isn't specific:to a need. 
> If I have a need, to meet, it firstly needs specification, by examining 
> thoughts, squeezing here, expanding there, filtering and sorting sheep from 
> goats, until my ducks are in a row and a complex network of interacting 
> considerations can be reduced to a linear explanation "because A then B". 
> TW allows that kind of network, so we can twist it, push and pull it, until 
> what we have on the screen is a series of tiddlers which make sense. This 
> sorts out the messes you specialise in creating 
> , 
> because it cuts through the rhubarb and allows the design team to correct 
> its targetting. A lathe is something simple which can have specialist 
> features added as needed: it spins something so something else can shape 
> it. If I need a toolpost, I bolt it on. Equally so with TW: it is at heart 
> simply a heap of conceptual memes, how you sort them out and what you do 
> with them is entirely up to you, with what you bolt on by way of add-ins. 
> In a way, even the Tiddler-Journal split's an error, journals are simply 
> derivative Tiddlers.
> Effectively, what you're doing is getting the tail to wag the dog. In pure 
> logic terms, marketing drills down towards a specific definition of an 
> instance of something needed - and that is as far as it goes, TW goes the 
> other way, generalising so it can handle as much as possible. That's 
> precisely why it's useful, and exactly what you hate. Well, hate yourself, 
> because that's where the error lies. TW does NOT need branding, or a 
> makeover, or any of the fancy-pants add-ons which will turn it into 
> functional candy-floss in time. And yes, I am a TW Classic User because the 
> TW5 makeover threw some parts of the baby I need out with the bathwater: 
> what you should have done was tidy up the OO structure, sure, but at the 
> same time with the extensions needed to preserve TWC interfacing. It's 
> exactly what MS has to do with Windows, keep a compatibility-mode until 
> orphaned code is eventually upgraded to become compatible. Just like the 
> TW5 coders, MS failed to do in the early versions, they've learned the 
> lesson and preserve backwards compatibility now, and that's a lesson to 
> keep in mind for the future.
> I date so far back in computing my surname's at the centre of all code 
> (I'm Jeremy Main, and MAIN() came from a bad joke 50 years ago, 
> contributing to the design of one of the first compilers which Bell Labs 
> picked over when planning how to write C). The quid pro quo of working in 
> OpenSource is that your work too is OpenSource, so although you should be 
> the person who defines how your code mutates over time, if you abandon it, 
> as LEWCID did, then it reverts to community property and it's one of the 
> functions of the community steering group to take orphaned code in hand and 
> find it a new stepfather. That's 

[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[BurningTreeC]

lol

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[Jel]

NO! Tiddlywiki is a tool, not a con. Sorry, marketeers, this tool is as 
attractive as a lathe - and lathes can be very attractive to someone who 
knows and appreciates their features and facilities. If you know how to use 
a lathe, you can make something, or a tool to make something, which *is* 
defined by a market need, the same here. But the market does NOT define the 
tool. So clear off, marketing men, stop trying to take *everything* over 
with your variants in The Kings New Clothes:if you're so brilliant in your 
omniscient knowledge, go play in your own sandpit and produce something 
better. Tiddlywiki succeeds precisely BECAUSE it isn't specific:to a need. 
If I have a need, to meet, it firstly needs specification, by examining 
thoughts, squeezing here, expanding there, filtering and sorting sheep from 
goats, until my ducks are in a row and a complex network of interacting 
considerations can be reduced to a linear explanation "because A then B". 
TW allows that kind of network, so we can twist it, push and pull it, until 
what we have on the screen is a series of tiddlers which make sense. This 
sorts out the messes you specialise in creating 
, 
because it cuts through the rhubarb and allows the design team to correct 
its targetting. A lathe is something simple which can have specialist 
features added as needed: it spins something so something else can shape 
it. If I need a toolpost, I bolt it on. Equally so with TW: it is at heart 
simply a heap of conceptual memes, how you sort them out and what you do 
with them is entirely up to you, with what you bolt on by way of add-ins. 
In a way, even the Tiddler-Journal split's an error, journals are simply 
derivative Tiddlers.
Effectively, what you're doing is getting the tail to wag the dog. In pure 
logic terms, marketing drills down towards a specific definition of an 
instance of something needed - and that is as far as it goes, TW goes the 
other way, generalising so it can handle as much as possible. That's 
precisely why it's useful, and exactly what you hate. Well, hate yourself, 
because that's where the error lies. TW does NOT need branding, or a 
makeover, or any of the fancy-pants add-ons which will turn it into 
functional candy-floss in time. And yes, I am a TW Classic User because the 
TW5 makeover threw some parts of the baby I need out with the bathwater: 
what you should have done was tidy up the OO structure, sure, but at the 
same time with the extensions needed to preserve TWC interfacing. It's 
exactly what MS has to do with Windows, keep a compatibility-mode until 
orphaned code is eventually upgraded to become compatible. Just like the 
TW5 coders, MS failed to do in the early versions, they've learned the 
lesson and preserve backwards compatibility now, and that's a lesson to 
keep in mind for the future.
I date so far back in computing my surname's at the centre of all code (I'm 
Jeremy Main, and MAIN() came from a bad joke 50 years ago, contributing to 
the design of one of the first compilers which Bell Labs picked over when 
planning how to write C). The quid pro quo of working in OpenSource is that 
your work too is OpenSource, so although you should be the person who 
defines how your code mutates over time, if you abandon it, as LEWCID did, 
then it reverts to community property and it's one of the functions of the 
community steering group to take orphaned code in hand and find it a new 
stepfather. That's how to complete the TW5 migration, and it does NOT mean 
peddling hogwash.
In fact, you demonstrate your inability to get things straight inside your 
first clause. From a marketing point? What is a marketing point? I take it 
you mean a point of view, but if you're so muddy-minded as not to be 
precise in your definitions, then what hope does anyone have of meeting 
your requirements? Within four words, you already created the kind of 
confusion shown in that cartoon. 

On Wednesday, 11 April 2018 06:16:37 UTC+1, Mat wrote:
>
> From a marketing point, TW suffers from being too general. It kind of 
> solves everything but this means someone looking for, say, recipe data base 
> tool will choose "The Recipe Data Base Tool" rather than "TiddlyWiki". And 
> someone looking for the Keto 
>  diet 
> will turn to... you get it. And so on for every subject/issue/need.
>
> So, what would it take for TW to have "multiple entrances"? One "entrance" 
> that really is for 'recipe people'. Another that really attracts those 
> feeling ketosis. Etc.
>
> I have some thoughts (not necessarily great or practical ones) but before 
> I let them steer your associations, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
>
> How can we actually make this be real? (as opposed to hypothetically if we 
> had a marketing budget etc)
>
> <:-)
>
>

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[TonyM]

Josiah,

Once you find a demand you want to satisfy it with a tiddlywiki solution. 
To have one available we need to pre-empt demand and have them on the 
shelf, but it is hard to predict.

Perhaps instead we should find what demand exists and act as a swat team to 
deliver a solution into that "market", however we (the community) are good 
at collaboration but more as support collaborators, than build 
collaborators, except for the developer folks.

Personally I am keen to second guess business and knowledge worker tools 
and build solutions to fit in that space where I perceive there to be a 
demand. 

Regards
Tony

On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 9:42:11 PM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Mat wrote:
>>
>> ... How can we actually make this be real? (as opposed to hypothetically 
>> if we had a marketing budget etc)
>>
>
> A cheap way to connect with real "markets" is simply to* identify where 
> there is demand*. Then address that demand by making it easier for those 
> folk who already demonstrating explicit interest in A specific use-case by 
> honed development for them of TiddllyWiki matched to that demand.
>
> That is classic "demand-driven marketing" and can often be very successful.
>
> An obvious current example of that is for Gamers interested in using 
> TiddlyWiki to create GAME CAMPAIGNS. There is extensive and increasing 
> interest for this visible on the Twitter stream for TiddlyWiki. And its 
> also worth noting that about half of DesignWriteStudios students this year 
> opted to make game-related TiddlyWiki.
>
> "Marketing" is about supply for demand. So, I think its sensible to focus 
> on WHAT is that demand? And what is its SCALE?
>
> EDIT: Meaning, to focus on what is already in explicit demand *first*.
>

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I fell I'm writing too much into this thread & should maybe shut-up. It is 
simply because it interests me.

One broad comment. Most of the discussion has not been about marketing at 
all. At been mainly about prepping, getting some "products" into an 
organised shape.

The point I made earlier that "marketing" is best related to "identifiable 
markets" and their "demand" wasn't picked up on. 

I think its important. Not least to help guide the development of 
*relevant* structured repositories (the shops).

There are use-groups where interest in TW is explicitly evident (like Game 
Campaigns) and strategic outreach could be as important as setting up shop. 
Market responsive development is generally quite successful.

Best wishes
Josiah  


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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

>
> Mat wrote:
> Would TW developers be at all interested or is everyone really a lone 
> cowboy? 


I think this is really interesting. Not so much on the cowboy. But on the 
idea that the "products" we talking about are a "developers" made thing 
necessarily. I'm, right now, not sure that focus is correct.

It seems to me that many potentially "marketable" functional-wholes in TW 
could be made without needing direct developer input purely through 
BRICOLAGE of bits-n-pieces made by AUTEURS already.

J. 


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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

>
>  Mat wrote:
>>>
>>> ... I think they should all be *hosted on the same place* ... I think 
>>> *Github* may be the best current option.
>>>
>> It is well known 
>>>
>>  

> @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>> (no it isn't, but that is not a problem if its accessible through ONE 
>> gateway :)
>>
>  

> Mat asked: Isn't well known or isn't the the best current (existing) 
> option?
>

It is totally unknown to Joe Bloggs. 

On a search for it, if you aren't careful in your query you might hit the 
Old Gits :-) ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm67t2F5GX0

J.

 

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[Luca Dorigo]

Its interesting you think of these as "editions".
>
> I think of them as APPLICATIONS. No problem. But in terms of promotion why 
> promote a version as an "edition?" An edition OF WHAT? As far as I can see 
> they are a each a BRICOLAGE of relevant bits deserving its own emergent 
> wholeness. 


I like the idea of "editions" (I would actually rather call them bundles) 
more than standalone applications - TW is awesome because it can do pretty 
much everything, so restraining one app to one specific purpose would be 
more of a hindrance than anything, to me at least... Although it may be 
different for the less-tech-inclined average user.

It would be great if there are "fit for specific purpose editions" but I do 
> not think that should be our focus. I think from a development and 
> contributor perspective we should be building blocks (often plugins) that 
> when added together produce *solutions.*
>

Exactly. 


How should any such editions (or, apps/applications as I'd prefer to call 
> them) be actual entry points?
>
> How, practically, would these entry points be served? To build them is 
> only part of the equation.
>

I think TW would benefit greatly of some sort of package/plugin manager, of 
the likes of npm or homebrew or apt. This would allow to 1. centralize all 
plugins and bundles and 2. manage dependencies (this plugin/bundle needs 
these other plugins etc.). The one included right now is very limited (and 
has very few plugins).

Le mercredi 11 avril 2018 07:16:37 UTC+2, Mat a écrit :
>
> From a marketing point, TW suffers from being too general. It kind of 
> solves everything but this means someone looking for, say, recipe data base 
> tool will choose "The Recipe Data Base Tool" rather than "TiddlyWiki". And 
> someone looking for the Keto 
>  diet 
> will turn to... you get it. And so on for every subject/issue/need.
>
> So, what would it take for TW to have "multiple entrances"? One "entrance" 
> that really is for 'recipe people'. Another that really attracts those 
> feeling ketosis. Etc.
>
> I have some thoughts (not necessarily great or practical ones) but before 
> I let them steer your associations, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
>
> How can we actually make this be real? (as opposed to hypothetically if we 
> had a marketing budget etc)
>
> <:-)
>
>

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[TonyM]

Josiah et al...

We need to market solutions to the broader audience, not editions, not 
plugins, in some ways not even tiddlywiki, it can do too much, people will 
be scared off. 

Once they try our champagne, many will come to the cellar door, and the 
enthusiasts will enter the barrel rooms and vineyards.

It would be great if there are "fit for specific purpose editions" but I do 
not think that should be our focus. I think from a development and 
contributor perspective we should be building blocks (often plugins) that 
when added together produce *solutions.*

Now it is these solutions we should proliferate, I personally intend to do 
this through the development of business and personal tools implemented in 
TiddlyWiki. Such solutions will of course refer to the following along with 
appropriate credits;

   - Other tools and Services I publish
   - A Directory of solutions
   - The TiddlyWiki open source environment
  - Below this editions tips and tools as currently found on the 
  tiddlywiki.com website 
   
The reason for a directory of solutions is we can bring together like 
solutions. and illustrate the expanse of possibilities and direct the 
audience that *discover tiddlywiki solutions anywhere* to enter the 
community of solution,s then the platform.

Solutions need not be editions, they may be plugins, a combination of 
plugins or macros, or a simple set of instructions.

To help Illustrate I have created this diagram. "Tonys Disposition 
Management" is a solution of my own, it would be like your own, fully 
operational solutions others can use, it may have a plugin published off 
TiddlyWiki.com but it is a stand alone solution.
There would be hundreds of these solutions everywhere, and anywhere. They 
can be submitted to a solutions library, not to be confused with TiddlyWiki 
Toolmap  that includes 
plugins (although some links here are solutions)


 Solutions credit the contributors but only link to the library, the how to 
is only how to use the solution not the components that make it up, we need 
to keep it simple for this audience.

I Suggest there be a standard Text we include in published solutions that 
is not found in other wikis so that an internet search for say \"task 
management" solution tiddlywiki\ only brings up solutions, not plugins or 
development conversations. I would also like to see some analytics included 
so we can find the number of solutions visible on the Internet, and those 
that are connected to the internet (user optin of course).


Food for thought?

Regards
Tony



On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 9:21:00 PM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Mat wrote:
>>
>> From a marketing point, TW suffers from being too general.
>>
>
> Right. And too variant in implementation options. 
>
> Lack of specificity for A market combined with too many options to run it 
> creates barriers to entry.
>

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[Mat]

On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 9:34:11 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> BUT could you clarify if someone made a stellar TW APP they would need to 
> JOIN GitHub in your vision? OR are you suggesting that you would broker 
> wider publishing of great TW APPS bricolaged outside GitHub?  
>

> I do think THAT is an issue in this. 
>

It IS an issue, because it would be a compromise. My proposal for github is 
that it is the best compromise I can come up with if tiddlywiki.com is not 
available.
 

> The QUESTION of whether the AUTEUR is also the PUBLISHER?
>

Who else? I'm not saying it can't be anyone else, but I'm just thinking 
that it is realistically unlikely that someone would want to take wider 
responsibility. I am emphasizing "actually make this be real as opposed to 
hypothetically" to move us away from pipe dreams. 

A consensus on Github would mean people have a clearer understanding on 
what it takes to "publish a TW app" (assuming they want their app to be 
part of this consensus). Currently everyone does his/her own thing like a 
chicken on the loose. We totally miss out on synergy.

If we have a consensus on Github then the skilled among us might just feel 
it would be worth it to create a solution for simpler publishing of TWs on 
Github, thereby lowering the threshold to be both the auteur and the 
publisher. (BTW, I believe @Danielo already did some work on this).


IMO much more will be achieved in recognising that author's of work are 
> NOT, often, their best (or interested) promoters.
>

Exactly!!! That is why it makes sense to keep things as framed inside the 
consensus as possible. For example; "if you publish it on github as opposed 
to anywhere else, then you automatically get the github tools for sharing 
but you also get our community tidbits such as the TW-promo-plugin and the 
standard texts to put on the github page that makes both your app and the 
other TW-apps get higher ranks because they're 'synced'.

If you're NOT interested in promoting, then the easiest thing should be to 
'join the consensus'.

...

SO, good people, what would it take to do this on github? How could such a 
thing be organized? What tools do we have at our disposal? Would TW 
developers be at all interested or is everyone really a lone cowboy? There 
are clearly people who simply enjoy creating cool stuff in TW and 
publishing it for the sake of it (I'm one of them) so I think it could work 
if it is in an infrastructure that doesn't get outdated even if it only 
slowly is contributed to.

Again, [something like] Github is probably more or less a "practical 
requisite" for entry points to actually work. Compare it to Apples "app 
store" perhaps. It's the closest thing I can come up with (since my 
previous main attempt with TWederation has not worked out.)

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[Mat]

On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 9:10:00 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Mat
>> Regardless if collections or single apps, we should make sure that they 
>> *promote 
>> one another*.
>>
>
> Respectfully, I don't think so. Why should a promo entry for an 
> "Organiser" be promoting an image gallery? Makes no sense.
>

Makes much sense. Why should a billboard in the subway show an ad for a 
product that has absolutely nothing to do with subways? The "organizer" 
should (probably) also promote the "image gallery" becaus it may be the 
only contact surface that the mention of "image gallery" has with the user. 
But maybe "promote" is too strong a word. IMO it should be just enough to 
make the user aware of it so that when - or if now! - he needs an image 
gallery then he'll know where to find it. A severe bottle neck for the TW 
project is of course that we cannot spend money on marketing.

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[Mat]

On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 9:02:03 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>  Mat wrote:
>>
>> ... I think they should all be *hosted on the same place* ... I think 
>> *Github* may be the best current option.
>>
> It is well known 
>>
>
> (no it isn't, but that is not a problem if its accessible through ONE 
> gateway :)
>

Isn't well known or isn't the the best current (existing) option?

But, yeah, one gateway.

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

I agree that Github, since so many TW techies use it, is as good a place 
for a repository as any. Tech knowledge of it is high. Its got really great 
sharing schemata. 

Its also obscure and takes time to understand.

BUT could you clarify if someone made a stellar TW APP they would need.to 
JOIN GitHub in your vision? OR are you suggesting that you would broker 
wider publishing of great TW APPS bricolaged outside GitHub? 

I do think THAT is an issue in this. 

The QUESTION of whether the AUTEUR is also the PUBLISHER?

IMO much more will be achieved in recognising that author's of work are 
NOT, often, their best (or interested) promoters.

Best wishes
J.

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

>
> Mat
> Regardless if collections or single apps, we should make sure that they 
> *promote 
> one another*.
>

Respectfully, I don't think so. Why should a promo entry for an 
"Oraganiser" be promoting an image gallery? Makes no sense.

I think the CORE of what you talking about is promo-for-purpose and its 
best to stick to just that. Just to what It is promoting.

Matching available APPS to demand is enough already.

J.

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

 Mat wrote:
>
> ... I think they should all be *hosted on the same place* ... I think 
> *Github* may be the best current option.
>
It is well known 
>

(no it isn't, but that is not a problem if its accessible through ONE 
gateway :)

J.

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[Mat]

How should any such editions (or, apps/applications as I'd prefer to call 
them) be actual entry points?

How, practically, would these entry points be served? To build them is only 
part of the equation.



Here are some thoughts on the matter:

To get some synergistic effects (for findability) I think they should all 
be *hosted on the same place*. Other than tiddlywiki.com, I think *Github* 
may be the best current option. It is well known and it would allow shared 
development and, if I understand right, it can both show a resulting page 
as well as the code behind it (...right?) Anyone who knows me, knows that 
I'm a fan of TiddlySpot but it is more narrow in this sense. I would also 
think google ranks github projects higher than tiddlyspot projects.

Github also has a few built in features for findability like stars and 
search function etc. Plus Github provides an "outer format" for the 
presentation of the code so that people have or get a familiarity - e.g 
there is the brief presentation area above the 'folders' and the more 
detailed presentation area below it.

I also like very much BurningTreeC's idea with collections/packages (maybe 
"suites" is a good term?). It makes sense also from a marketing perspective 
(cross-selling ) where someone 
interested in an "Anki TW" is probably also interested in other study 
tools. 

Regardless if collections or single apps, we should make sure that they 
*promote 
one another*. Someone getting the "recipe db" should also get info about 
the other existing collections and editions. We could perhaps even have a 
common "promo plugin" that contains tiddlers with descriptions and links to 
all the other projects.

Anyway - to "actually make this be real as opposed to hypothetical" I think 
one of the first steps is that bit about Github. Otherwise we're in the 
same situation that we are with for plugins. Github is of course not one 
central place, but it has some resemblance. Or - now talking to those 
versed in Github - what do you say abou tthis point? Does it make sense?


<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

BTC & Luca

Its interesting you think of these as "editions".

I think of them as APPLICATIONS. No problem. But in terms of promotion why 
promote a version as an "edition?" An edition OF WHAT? As far as I can see 
they are a each a BRICOLAGE of relevant bits deserving its own emergent 
wholeness. 

The word "edition" looks a bit strained in your context. I mean, ANY 
consortium of parts IS a kind of edition so its a but of a non-sequiter. 
But I don't think that is quite what TW.com means by that, "edition", which 
is more restricted.

I think rather, market, application for purpose and don't bother two much 
about origins. Promote wholes. Not histories :-).

Josiah

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[BurningTreeC]

>
> I can think of many:
>
>- Agenda Edition 
>- Task/Project Manager Edition
>- Developer Edition
>- Diary Edition (expanding on the journal functionality)
>- Musician Edition: songbook, annotated recordings, etc. - there are 
>already some plugins supporting abc notation
>- Lecturer Edition: with some tweaking (fixed tiddler dimensions,...) 
>tiddlywiki could be used to create awesome presentations.
>- Accounting Edition: Advanced filtering/automatisation can make it an 
>amazing tool to keep track of personal finance and/or the accounting of a 
>company
>- Course Edition: Create digital textbooks interlinking information, 
>examples, multimedia, exercises in a seamless way
>- ...
>
>
Right, that would be the way, I think so, too 

Simon

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[Luca Dorigo]

I can think of many:

   - Agenda Edition 
   - Task/Project Manager Edition
   - Developer Edition
   - Diary Edition (expanding on the journal functionality)
   - Musician Edition: songbook, annotated recordings, etc. - there are 
   already some plugins supporting abc notation
   - Lecturer Edition: with some tweaking (fixed tiddler dimensions,...) 
   tiddlywiki could be used to create awesome presentations.
   - Accounting Edition: Advanced filtering/automatisation can make it an 
   amazing tool to keep track of personal finance and/or the accounting of a 
   company
   - Course Edition: Create digital textbooks interlinking information, 
   examples, multimedia, exercises in a seamless way
   - ...
   

Le mercredi 11 avril 2018 13:09:02 UTC+2, JD a écrit :
>
> I like this idea too. I am currently experimenting with Tony's ideas for 
> an outliner, which I think would belong to a writer's edition of TW. 
>
> Right now, the official editions are: 
>
>- Empty Edition 
>- Blog Edition 
>- Full Edition 
>- Plugin Editions 
>- Résumé Builder Edition 
>
>- Text-Slicer Edition 
>- XLSX Utilities Edition 
>
>
>
> What could we add to this, besides the above suggested editions for 
> Students, Writers, and Recipe collectors?
>  
>
> On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 7:26:46 PM UTC+9, Luca Dorigo wrote:
>>
>> I like this. It seems better than having "spinoffs" like cardo.wiki that 
>> are hard(er) to integrate with your own wiki.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Le mercredi 11 avril 2018 11:26:48 UTC+2, BurningTreeC a écrit :
>>>
>>> Hi Mat ,
>>>
>>> I was thinking that we (the community) could make collections/packages 
>>> (like editions) for different use-cases
>>> those packages would be sets of plugins and themes and tools
>>>
>>> for example: 
>>>
>>> student-collection: 
>>>
>>>
>>>- note-taking plugins and tools (like anwiki - anki (heavily used by 
>>>students) replacement in tiddlywiki, work in progress)
>>>- tools to include pdf files and images (text-slicer plugin included)
>>>- a simple launcher for wikies (maybe the multiuser 
>>>single-executable)
>>>- evernote migration plugin
>>>- other community tools and plugins for the use-case listed within 
>>>the bundle
>>>- simple instructions how to use it
>>>
>>>
>>> Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2018 07:16:37 UTC+2 schrieb Mat:

 From a marketing point, TW suffers from being too general. It kind of 
 solves everything but this means someone looking for, say, recipe data 
 base 
 tool will choose "The Recipe Data Base Tool" rather than "TiddlyWiki". And 
 someone looking for the Keto 
  diet 
 will turn to... you get it. And so on for every subject/issue/need.

 So, what would it take for TW to have "multiple entrances"? One 
 "entrance" that really is for 'recipe people'. Another that really 
 attracts 
 those feeling ketosis. Etc.

 I have some thoughts (not necessarily great or practical ones) but 
 before I let them steer your associations, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 How can we actually make this be real? (as opposed to hypothetically if 
 we had a marketing budget etc)

 <:-)



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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Dear Support System for the Brezhnev Diet Wiki (aka Mat).

I'm having problems with adjusting the Winter Greens Calculator, can you 
help? It's quite urgent as we have a dying orphan.

Yours, in earnest
April Mackenzie

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Just FYI, from the point of view of a user looking to fulfil function 
(normal end-use case) only ...

   - Blog Edition 


   - Résumé Builder Edition 
   

are close to normal end-user ideas of "direct functional needs".

Some of the examples pointed to from TiddlyWiki.com more in the ballpark, I 
think: https://tiddlywiki.com/#Examples

Josiah

JD wrote:
>
> Right now, the official editions are: 
>
>- Empty Edition 
>- Blog Edition 
>- Full Edition 
>- Plugin Editions 
>- Résumé Builder Edition 
>
>- Text-Slicer Edition 
>- XLSX Utilities Edition 
>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

In discussion with open-source developers over the years about why some of 
their great work never really reaches its "full market potential" several 
relevant factors come up ...

1 - Mostly they love developing software, and are fearful of getting 
over-burdened with support issues ...

2 - IMO (purely subjective) they can be so far into a world of development 
platforms and its language & processes they sometimes have difficulty 
grasping what kind of mind-set a "normal" end-user just looking for a 
COMPLETE solution lives in. 

3 - This is NOT a criticism but it is a comment about understanding the gap 
between a "maker" & a "user". Usually  successful "marketing" of a product 
has a third person who helps bridge between maker and user.

These points may not apply so strongly to TiddlyWiki, though I think (1) 
does apply, in that its primary "development group" (= this GG you reading 
in now + GitHub) is interestingly diverse in skill and interest.

Josiah

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:
>
> ... How can we actually make this be real? (as opposed to hypothetically 
> if we had a marketing budget etc)
>

A cheap way to connect with real "markets" is simply to* identify where 
there is demand*. Then address that demand by making it easier for those 
folk who already demonstrating explicit interest in A specific use-case by 
honed development for them of TiddllyWiki matched to that demand.

That is classic "demand-driven marketing" and can often be very successful.

An obvious current example of that is for Gamers interested in using 
TiddlyWiki to create GAME CAMPAIGNS. There is extensive and increasing 
interest for this visible on the Twitter stream for TiddlyWiki. And its 
also worth noting that about half of DesignWriteStudios students this year 
opted to make game-related TiddlyWiki.

"Marketing" is about supply for demand. So, I think its sensible to focus 
on WHAT is that demand? And what is its SCALE?

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:
>
> ... someone looking for, say, recipe data base tool will choose "The 
> Recipe Data Base Tool" rather than "TiddlyWiki". And someone looking for 
> the Keto  
> diet will turn to... you get it. And so on for every subject/issue/need.
>

Right. But would this be a Specific Tool in search of Its Market or just an 
Options Explicator? :-)

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:
>
> From a marketing point, TW suffers from being too general.
>

Right. And too variant in implementation options. 

Lack of specificity for A market combined with too many options to run it 
creates barriers to entry.

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat

I've written extensively around some of the issues around "marketing" 
TiddlyWiki. But as yet ill formed. Not formed enough to constitute 
"marketing."

I'm going to write a few different notes since you brought it on to see if 
it can form in a better way. :-).

Josiah

Mat wrote:
>
> From a marketing point, TW suffers from being too general.
>

Josiah 

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[JD]

I like this idea too. I am currently experimenting with Tony's ideas for an 
outliner, which I think would belong to a writer's edition of TW. 

Right now, the official editions are: 

   - Empty Edition 
   - Blog Edition 
   - Full Edition 
   - Plugin Editions 
   - Résumé Builder Edition 
   
   - Text-Slicer Edition 
   - XLSX Utilities Edition 
   


What could we add to this, besides the above suggested editions for 
Students, Writers, and Recipe collectors?
 

On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 7:26:46 PM UTC+9, Luca Dorigo wrote:
>
> I like this. It seems better than having "spinoffs" like cardo.wiki that 
> are hard(er) to integrate with your own wiki.
>
>
>
>
> Le mercredi 11 avril 2018 11:26:48 UTC+2, BurningTreeC a écrit :
>>
>> Hi Mat ,
>>
>> I was thinking that we (the community) could make collections/packages 
>> (like editions) for different use-cases
>> those packages would be sets of plugins and themes and tools
>>
>> for example: 
>>
>> student-collection: 
>>
>>
>>- note-taking plugins and tools (like anwiki - anki (heavily used by 
>>students) replacement in tiddlywiki, work in progress)
>>- tools to include pdf files and images (text-slicer plugin included)
>>- a simple launcher for wikies (maybe the multiuser single-executable)
>>- evernote migration plugin
>>- other community tools and plugins for the use-case listed within 
>>the bundle
>>- simple instructions how to use it
>>
>>
>> Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2018 07:16:37 UTC+2 schrieb Mat:
>>>
>>> From a marketing point, TW suffers from being too general. It kind of 
>>> solves everything but this means someone looking for, say, recipe data base 
>>> tool will choose "The Recipe Data Base Tool" rather than "TiddlyWiki". And 
>>> someone looking for the Keto 
>>>  diet 
>>> will turn to... you get it. And so on for every subject/issue/need.
>>>
>>> So, what would it take for TW to have "multiple entrances"? One 
>>> "entrance" that really is for 'recipe people'. Another that really attracts 
>>> those feeling ketosis. Etc.
>>>
>>> I have some thoughts (not necessarily great or practical ones) but 
>>> before I let them steer your associations, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
>>>
>>> How can we actually make this be real? (as opposed to hypothetically if 
>>> we had a marketing budget etc)
>>>
>>> <:-)
>>>
>>>

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[Luca Dorigo]

I like this. It seems better than having "spinoffs" like cardo.wiki that 
are hard(er) to integrate with your own wiki.




Le mercredi 11 avril 2018 11:26:48 UTC+2, BurningTreeC a écrit :
>
> Hi Mat ,
>
> I was thinking that we (the community) could make collections/packages 
> (like editions) for different use-cases
> those packages would be sets of plugins and themes and tools
>
> for example: 
>
> student-collection: 
>
>
>- note-taking plugins and tools (like anwiki - anki (heavily used by 
>students) replacement in tiddlywiki, work in progress)
>- tools to include pdf files and images (text-slicer plugin included)
>- a simple launcher for wikies (maybe the multiuser single-executable)
>- evernote migration plugin
>- other community tools and plugins for the use-case listed within the 
>bundle
>- simple instructions how to use it
>
>
> Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2018 07:16:37 UTC+2 schrieb Mat:
>>
>> From a marketing point, TW suffers from being too general. It kind of 
>> solves everything but this means someone looking for, say, recipe data base 
>> tool will choose "The Recipe Data Base Tool" rather than "TiddlyWiki". And 
>> someone looking for the Keto 
>>  diet 
>> will turn to... you get it. And so on for every subject/issue/need.
>>
>> So, what would it take for TW to have "multiple entrances"? One 
>> "entrance" that really is for 'recipe people'. Another that really attracts 
>> those feeling ketosis. Etc.
>>
>> I have some thoughts (not necessarily great or practical ones) but before 
>> I let them steer your associations, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
>>
>> How can we actually make this be real? (as opposed to hypothetically if 
>> we had a marketing budget etc)
>>
>> <:-)
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[BurningTreeC]

Hi Mat ,

I was thinking that we (the community) could make collections/packages 
(like editions) for different use-cases
those packages would be sets of plugins and themes and tools

for example: 

student-collection: 


   - note-taking plugins and tools (like anwiki - anki (heavily used by 
   students) replacement in tiddlywiki, work in progress)
   - tools to include pdf files and images (text-slicer plugin included)
   - a simple launcher for wikies (maybe the multiuser single-executable)
   - evernote migration plugin
   - other community tools and plugins for the use-case listed within the 
   bundle
   - simple instructions how to use it
   

Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2018 07:16:37 UTC+2 schrieb Mat:
>
> From a marketing point, TW suffers from being too general. It kind of 
> solves everything but this means someone looking for, say, recipe data base 
> tool will choose "The Recipe Data Base Tool" rather than "TiddlyWiki". And 
> someone looking for the Keto 
>  diet 
> will turn to... you get it. And so on for every subject/issue/need.
>
> So, what would it take for TW to have "multiple entrances"? One "entrance" 
> that really is for 'recipe people'. Another that really attracts those 
> feeling ketosis. Etc.
>
> I have some thoughts (not necessarily great or practical ones) but before 
> I let them steer your associations, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
>
> How can we actually make this be real? (as opposed to hypothetically if we 
> had a marketing budget etc)
>
> <:-)
>
>

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[tw5] Re: [marketing TW] How can we create many specific entrances?

[TonyM]

*On another recent thread I recall posting on  focused solutions and 
markets.*

*So there is already support for your idea.*

*So do share.*

*Tony*


On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 3:16:37 PM UTC+10, Mat wrote:
>
> From a marketing point, TW suffers from being too general. It kind of 
> solves everything but this means someone looking for, say, recipe data base 
> tool will choose "The Recipe Data Base Tool" rather than "TiddlyWiki". And 
> someone looking for the Keto 
>  diet 
> will turn to... you get it. And so on for every subject/issue/need.
>
> So, what would it take for TW to have "multiple entrances"? One "entrance" 
> that really is for 'recipe people'. Another that really attracts those 
> feeling ketosis. Etc.
>
> I have some thoughts (not necessarily great or practical ones) but before 
> I let them steer your associations, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
>
> How can we actually make this be real? (as opposed to hypothetically if we 
> had a marketing budget etc)
>
> <:-)
>
>

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