Re: Reveal Codes

[W. Robert J. Funnell, Prof.]

Andrew -

I would like to take you up on your kind offer to send a copy of your 
RevealCodes3.odt. If you don't mind, I could add it to my notes about 
RevealCodes at http://audilab.bme.mcgill.ca/~funnell/swil_ooo.html#reveal; 
otherwise I would just keep it to play with when I have a chance. One of my 
planned projects for when I retire is to implement RevealCodes for LO/AOO :-)

I just checked the handling of direct formatting. If I bold some text directly, 
it creates an  'automatic style' with an ad-hoc name, in my case 'T6':

  


You're right that it tells you when a style (whether 'automatic' or not) starts 
and ends. For example,
  â
  á 

- Robert

From: Andrew Pitonyak 
Sent: March 21, 2022 13:52
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: Reveal Codes


First, to identify a few problems with "reveal codes.

One problem with "reveal" codes with respect to OpenOffice is related to the 
use of styles compared to hard coded attributes. I perform most formatting 
using a style, but it is difficult to understand whether a single character is 
bold because it was made that way using a style or by a hard coded attribute.

Programatically, it is easy to traverse simple text and to recognize where 
things change. The hard part is understanding exactly why something changed. I 
do not remember off hand if it tells me when individual attributes change if 
the change is because of an applied style. Also from memory, I think that it 
will tell me when a style starts / ends, which makes removing an applied style 
tricky; something I have never tried programatically.

I have certainly written macros that would dump this information, but not in a 
nice easy to see way.

https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/FAQ/Writer/FormattingText/Does_OpenOffice.org_have_a_Reveal_Codes_functionality_similar_to_WordPerfect%3F

https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395

https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7=62137

https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/User:TJFrazier/Reveal_Codes

In 2004 (approximately), a macro was created by Ian Laurenson to roughly 
emulate some reveal codes functionality.

On my current computer I have LibreOffice (not OpenOffice) installed and I was 
able to make it work with a few fixes. No idea if it works with the current 
version of AOO (Apache OpenOffice). If you email me off list, and ask for a 
copy of my latest Documents/OpenOffice/RevealCodes/Ianz/RevealCodes3.odt, I can 
send you a copy. You will probably be very unhappy with how it works. Also, it 
is not something that I use. I considered extending it, but there is always a 
question of available time.

Andrew Pitonyak

On Monday, March 21, 2022 10:15 EDT, Alan B  wrote:
 There is no reveal codes in OpenOffice.

Reveal Codes was a Wordperfect feature. The Word feature of the same name
is activated by Shift+F1. The Word feature may go by the same name but is
nothing like the Wordperfect feature because the structure of the files is
different.

If you have a line (or double line, or dashed line, or etc) across a page,
check for borders in the paragraph style both above the line and below the
line. I've had that happen to me before and frustrated the heck out of me
before I finally figured it out. Still happens sometimes. Don't know what
I'm doing to make it happen but have at least figured out how to get rid of
it.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 3:06 PM Jennie Bickerton
 wrote:

> Hi Steve,
> I am having problems in a document with paragraph numbers and
> sub-paragraph entries ( 1. and then A. etc.) and also a double line across
> the page that I have no idea how it got there. I know in Microsoft there
> was an "F#" that would open Reveal Codes so that I could then go in and
> remove whatever indent or code I had mistakenly inserted.
> Is there any reveal codes in Open Office?
> Thank you so much!
> Jennie Bickerton



--
Alan Boba
CISSP, CCENT, ITIL v3 Foundations 2011



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Re: Reveal Codes

[Andrew Pitonyak]

First, to identify a few problems with "reveal codes.

One problem with "reveal" codes with respect to OpenOffice is related to the 
use of styles compared to hard coded attributes. I perform most formatting 
using a style, but it is difficult to understand whether a single character is 
bold because it was made that way using a style or by a hard coded attribute.

Programatically, it is easy to traverse simple text and to recognize where 
things change. The hard part is understanding exactly why something changed. I 
do not remember off hand if it tells me when individual attributes change if 
the change is because of an applied style. Also from memory, I think that it 
will tell me when a style starts / ends, which makes removing an applied style 
tricky; something I have never tried programatically.

I have certainly written macros that would dump this information, but not in a 
nice easy to see way.

https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/FAQ/Writer/FormattingText/Does_OpenOffice.org_have_a_Reveal_Codes_functionality_similar_to_WordPerfect%3F

https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395

https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7=62137

https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/User:TJFrazier/Reveal_Codes

In 2004 (approximately), a macro was created by Ian Laurenson to roughly 
emulate some reveal codes functionality.

On my current computer I have LibreOffice (not OpenOffice) installed and I was 
able to make it work with a few fixes. No idea if it works with the current 
version of AOO (Apache OpenOffice). If you email me off list, and ask for a 
copy of my latest Documents/OpenOffice/RevealCodes/Ianz/RevealCodes3.odt, I can 
send you a copy. You will probably be very unhappy with how it works. Also, it 
is not something that I use. I considered extending it, but there is always a 
question of available time. 

Andrew Pitonyak

On Monday, March 21, 2022 10:15 EDT, Alan B  wrote:
 There is no reveal codes in OpenOffice.

Reveal Codes was a Wordperfect feature. The Word feature of the same name
is activated by Shift+F1. The Word feature may go by the same name but is
nothing like the Wordperfect feature because the structure of the files is
different.

If you have a line (or double line, or dashed line, or etc) across a page,
check for borders in the paragraph style both above the line and below the
line. I've had that happen to me before and frustrated the heck out of me
before I finally figured it out. Still happens sometimes. Don't know what
I'm doing to make it happen but have at least figured out how to get rid of
it.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 3:06 PM Jennie Bickerton
 wrote:

> Hi Steve,
> I am having problems in a document with paragraph numbers and
> sub-paragraph entries ( 1. and then A. etc.) and also a double line across
> the page that I have no idea how it got there. I know in Microsoft there
> was an "F#" that would open Reveal Codes so that I could then go in and
> remove whatever indent or code I had mistakenly inserted.
> Is there any reveal codes in Open Office?
> Thank you so much!
> Jennie Bickerton



--
Alan Boba
CISSP, CCENT, ITIL v3 Foundations 2011

 

Re: Reveal Codes

[Alan B]

There is no reveal codes in OpenOffice.

Reveal Codes was a Wordperfect feature. The Word feature of the same name
is activated by Shift+F1. The Word feature may go by the same name but is
nothing like the Wordperfect feature because the structure of the files is
different.

If you have a line (or double line, or dashed line, or etc) across a page,
check for borders in the paragraph style both above the line and below the
line. I've had that happen to me before and frustrated the heck out of me
before I finally figured it out. Still happens sometimes. Don't know what
I'm doing to make it happen but have at least figured out how to get rid of
it.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 3:06 PM Jennie Bickerton
 wrote:

> Hi Steve,
> I am having problems in a document with paragraph numbers and
> sub-paragraph entries ( 1. and then A. etc.) and also a double line across
> the page that I have no idea how it got there.  I know in Microsoft there
> was an "F#" that would open Reveal Codes so that I could then go in and
> remove whatever indent or code I had mistakenly inserted.
> Is there any reveal codes in Open Office?
> Thank you so much!
> Jennie Bickerton



-- 
Alan Boba
CISSP, CCENT, ITIL v3 Foundations 2011

Re: reveal codes

[Andrew Pitonyak]

On 2017-08-10 7:14, Rory O'Farrell wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:08:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Robert Funnell  wrote:


On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote:

> Let me clarify.  The “codes” revealed are not what your 
thinking of — tags with bracketed text, XML code, etc..  I think 
that the viewing option should more properly be called “Reveal 
Structure” since it simply shows what formatting instruction has 
been given and where, specifically things like, typeface and size, 
indentations, line spacing, etc..


You're right that what is wanted is not an exact display of the 
actual
internal coding but rather some visual indication of what's going 
on.


To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing
the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor
before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This
would be just as useful in OO and LO.

- Robert


If one turns on /Format /Styles and Formatting, it clearly indicates
the current formatting style at the cursor position.

/View /Non printing characters is helpful in showing spacing and
paragraph/line ends.



I tested the reveal codes macro years ago. last time I tried it, I had 
to make changes to the underlying code to make it work. I don't remember 
exactly what it showed, or, how it showed it. Also, it did not entirely 
work as the system worked in WP, not that I entirely remember how that 
worked, but, here are some issues with reveal codes in LO / AOO.


The first issue is related to styles. So, if you want to know why your 
text is bold, it may be because there is a style making it so and it may 
be because someone applied direct formatting. So, coming out of the 
gate, there is always the question of what does one show with reveal 
codes? Do you show the styles or just the formatting? For sure this is 
useful functionality.


I don't even remember exactly what WP did. Could I start "BOLD" and 
then not turn it off? This is not possible the way that AOO is written.


I think that the bottom line is that "sure, it would be great", it is 
possible to do, the created extension provides (does it still work?) 
some approximation, the developers have not yet considered it 
sufficiently interesting to work on it (and I think it would require 
significant time to integrate it).


I think that the best path forward would be to open a feature request 
and then if sufficient people vote for it or express interest, it might 
be done.


Andrew Pitonyak

Re: reveal codes

[Andrew Pitonyak]

As far as I can tell, neither of these things helps what I'm
referring to. As an example: let's say you apply the Emphasis
character style to a sequence of characters, and then later want to
add some following characters that don't have that style. If you just
position your cursor after the last styled character, the text you 
add

will also be styled. You need to position your cursor after the first
_unstyled_ character that follows, insert your new text, and then 
back

up and delete that first unstyled (and now unwanted) character. With
RevealCodes turned on in WordPerfect, you would just position your
cursor after the end-of-style indicator and start entering unstyled
text.


well, the only difference is that you may NOT be able to position the 
cursor outside of the formatting mark. something that reveals the codes 
would clearly show that this is the case. So, what you would need to do 
is to place the cursor as close as you can get, and then manually set / 
change the style. The only functionality that you are missing is things 
such as:


1. An ability to force the cursor past a formatting mark or style, 
which may not be possible to do with AOO. No, really.
2. The ability to delete a formatting mark from within "reveal codes" 
window. I think you could do that in WP anyway.


Both of these could be worked around in a native version of the 
capability, but, for now, that is not available, and, I do not expect it 
to be available anytime soon since I have not heard that anyone was 
working on it. So, the question is, (1) how can you request that it be 
added [open a request] and (2) how can you use what is currently 
available to solve your existing "problem" to accomplish your goal. The 
way that I usually work around this is by placing the cursor where I 
want it and start typing. if it starts working in Bold, and I don't want 
bold, then I highlight it and make it not bold (as one example). Would 
it be faster to press the "show me codes" key, move the cursor, then 
type? Maybe. I don't think that we have the problem with empty tags in 
AOO that we had in WP, so I don't think that you need to use it to 
remove empty tags.


So, you might want to find that reveal codes macro (I think that 
someone had a link to it) and give that a try, see about opening a 
feature request, and, if you are unsure how to work around a specific 
behavior, describe it.


It will not be the same, even if someone can carefully defines how it 
should work in AOO (because it cannot be exactly the same because of 
styles). Best of luck


andy

Re: reveal codes

[Robert Funnell]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Rory O'Farrell wrote:


On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:08:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Robert Funnell  wrote:


...
To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing
the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor
before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This
would be just as useful in OO and LO.


If one turns on /Format /Styles and Formatting, it clearly indicates the 
current formatting style at the cursor position.

/View /Non printing characters is helpful in showing spacing and paragraph/line 
ends.


As far as I can tell, neither of these things helps what I'm referring 
to. As an example: let's say you apply the Emphasis character style to 
a sequence of characters, and then later want to add some following 
characters that don't have that style. If you just position your 
cursor after the last styled character, the text you add will also be 
styled. You need to position your cursor after the first _unstyled_ 
character that follows, insert your new text, and then back up and 
delete that first unstyled (and now unwanted) character. With 
RevealCodes turned on in WordPerfect, you would just position your 
cursor after the end-of-style indicator and start entering unstyled 
text.


- Robert


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Re: reveal codes

[Rory O'Farrell]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:08:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Robert Funnell  wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote:
> 
> > Let me clarify.  The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags 
> > with bracketed text, XML code, etc..  I think that the viewing option 
> > should more properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows 
> > what formatting instruction has been given and where, specifically things 
> > like, typeface and size, indentations, line spacing, etc..
> 
> You're right that what is wanted is not an exact display of the actual 
> internal coding but rather some visual indication of what's going on.
> 
> To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing 
> the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor 
> before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This 
> would be just as useful in OO and LO.
> 
> - Robert

If one turns on /Format /Styles and Formatting, it clearly indicates the 
current formatting style at the cursor position.

/View /Non printing characters is helpful in showing spacing and paragraph/line 
ends.

-- 
Rory O'Farrell 

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Re: reveal codes

[Robert Funnell]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote:


Let me clarify.  The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags with 
bracketed text, XML code, etc..  I think that the viewing option should more 
properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows what formatting 
instruction has been given and where, specifically things like, typeface and 
size, indentations, line spacing, etc..


You're right that what is wanted is not an exact display of the actual 
internal coding but rather some visual indication of what's going on.


To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing 
the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor 
before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This 
would be just as useful in OO and LO.


- Robert

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Re: reveal codes

[zahra a]

hi.
did you test libreoffice for this purpose?
and i recommend that peist the content of your file in for example
notepad++ to see the codes.
God bless you!

On 8/10/17, Stephen Nichols  wrote:
> Let me clarify.  The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags
> with bracketed text, XML code, etc..  I think that the viewing option should
> more properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows what
> formatting instruction has been given and where, specifically things like,
> typeface and size, indentations, line spacing, etc..
>
> Stephen Nichols
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2017, at 8:35 PM, Robert Funnell 
> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Martin Groenescheij wrote:
>
>> The reveal codes shows bad formatting issues, if you learn to use Styles
>> properly there is nothing to reveal.
>
> Sometimes one has to work with documents created by other people.
>
> And often one would like to be able to place the cursor before or after an
> invisible format or style 'code' (or xml tag). I think that the possibility
> (in principle) of doing so was demonstrated by the macros originally
> developed by Iannz (referred to on my Web page mentioned in an earlier post
> in this thread).
>
> - Robert
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
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>
>


-- 
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org

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Re: reveal codes

[Stephen Nichols]

Let me clarify.  The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags with 
bracketed text, XML code, etc..  I think that the viewing option should more 
properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows what formatting 
instruction has been given and where, specifically things like, typeface and 
size, indentations, line spacing, etc..

Stephen Nichols


On Aug 9, 2017, at 8:35 PM, Robert Funnell  wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Martin Groenescheij wrote:

> The reveal codes shows bad formatting issues, if you learn to use Styles 
> properly there is nothing to reveal.

Sometimes one has to work with documents created by other people.

And often one would like to be able to place the cursor before or after an 
invisible format or style 'code' (or xml tag). I think that the possibility (in 
principle) of doing so was demonstrated by the macros originally developed by 
Iannz (referred to on my Web page mentioned in an earlier post in this thread).

- Robert



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Re: reveal codes

[jonathon]

On 08/09/2017 07:48 PM, Stephen Nichols wrote:

> 2)  I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP.
> But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature?

What problem do you think "Reveal Codes" solves.

I mean something other the fact that the developers of WP couldn't write
bug free code. (Reveal Codes was a quick fix to enable users to fix the
presentation markup errors that Wp put into their documents, due to bad
coding in their software.)

Robert wrote:

>Many people have said that it's impossible. A couple of people have
worked on macros that demonstrate that it is possible

Not impossible, but crafting either internal code, or an extension to
display "Reveal Codes" per se, is probably a waste of programmer resources.

Johnny wrote:

>I think someone built an add-on for this many years ago, but I'm not sure

I used an add-on with OOo 1.1.3-ZA Write, and a different add-on for OOo
1.1.3 Calc.

IIRC, Ian's macro didn't provide editing functionality.

###

If one configures the stylist side-bar, and formatting tool bar
appropriately, one can get virtually all of the functionality of Reveal
Codes.

jonathon

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Re: reveal codes

[Robert Funnell]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Martin Groenescheij wrote:

The reveal codes shows bad formatting issues, if you learn to use Styles 
properly there is nothing to reveal.


Sometimes one has to work with documents created by other people.

And often one would like to be able to place the cursor before or 
after an invisible format or style 'code' (or xml tag). I think that 
the possibility (in principle) of doing so was demonstrated by the 
macros originally developed by Iannz (referred to on my Web page 
mentioned in an earlier post in this thread).


- Robert

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Re: reveal codes

[Johnny Rosenberg]

2017-08-09 21:48 GMT+02:00 Stephen Nichols :

> I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s
> a great product.
> 1)  I hate Microsoft.
> 2)  I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP.  It is the most
> powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting
> issues.
>
> I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs
> and Corel won’t come back with their Mac version.  I find OpenOffice a very
> suitable replacement.  But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar
> feature?
>

I think someone built an add-on for this many years ago, but I'm not sure
if it still works. Or maybe it was made for LibreOffice, I don't remember.

Apache OpenOffice is built around styles, kind of. This has its obvious
advantages, especially when you want consistent documents and it's very
easy to make huge changes very quickly, for instance in a few clicks change
the font size for all headers in hundreds of pages at once. I use styles
all the time and I never needed ”reveal codes” and I'm pretty sure I'll
never need them.


Anyway, if that add-on can't be found or if it doesn't work with newer
versions of Apache OpenOffice, and if you don't want to adapt to styles,
then I would say that Apache OpenOffice is not for you. Pick something
else. This discussion has been up quite a few times and it seems obvious to
me that this feature will never ever be implemented in Apache OpenOffice,
nor in LibreOffice. At least that's what I think.


Kind regards

Johnny Rosenberg


> Stephen Nichols
> Aldie, Virginia
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>

Re: reveal codes

[Robert Funnell]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote:


I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s a 
great product.
1)  I hate Microsoft.
2)  I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP.  It is the most 
powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting 
issues.

I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs and 
Corel won’t come back with their Mac version.  I find OpenOffice a very 
suitable replacement.  But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature?

Stephen Nichols
Aldie, Virginia


You may be interested in looking at bug 3395 from 2002:
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395

Many people have said that it's impossible. A couple of people have 
worked on macros that demonstrate that it is possible (cf. my old

discussion at
http://audilab.bme.mcgill.ca/~funnell/swil_ooo.html#reveal).

- Robert

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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Andrew Douglas Pitonyak]

yes, voting is how you officially indicate your interest

On 05/23/2014 03:39 AM, Helen wrote:

I'd love the reveal codes feature -- didn't know there was a vote until I
ran across this.


On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak 
and...@pitonyak.org wrote:


On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote:


So far, this conversation boils down to:  use only styles which requires
casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and
possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show
consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is
cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.


That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the
need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to
implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a
knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution)
to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed
software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time /
energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature
must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general
usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that
saying copy from WP is sufficient.

Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the
hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the
CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation.

https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395

So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen.
Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature.
WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to
put one of their votes towards it in over 10 years feels a little
spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know
that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a
handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I
lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other
requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes
towards it.

https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.htmlbug_id=3395



Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code.
  Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is
a very helpful tool.

Jack


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[mt]

Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant 
to criticise styles - which I use extensively, and generally 
find useful.


There are however situations where styles might not help. For 
example, when troubleshooting document formatting problems such 
as page or section options, or when special (manual) character 
formatting has been applied to styled paragraphs: this is where 
reveal codes can come in handy. Also, typically, Reveal 
codes was used by someone other than the original author... 
funny this has never been mentioned, given that it was the main 
reason why we had to use Reveal codes back when WordPerfect 
was the standard!


Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is 
in the Write/Edit Post interface in WordPress, with its two 
tabs (Visual | Text). I have no idea whether this is possible in 
OO - but it is my understanding that something like that is what 
people asking for Reveal codes might find useful.


As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already 
suggested, these two ways of looking at a written page are not 
necessarily mutually exclusive. So if they are in OO, maybe this 
is what needs to be explained to us users, who do not 
understand, nor want to know, about the inner workings of the program.


Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can 
take the user's perspective is to listen to end users 
themselves. Ideally... without expecting them to be computer 
literate or (worse) accusing them to not put in the necessary 
time/effort to learn how to use the program.


Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as 
end ( dumb? :-) users.


marina
---
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@martadiello



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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[japples]

So far, this conversation boils down to:  use only styles which requires 
casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and 
possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show 
consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which 
is cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.


Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view 
code.  Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the 
codes is a very helpful tool.


Jack


mt wrote:
Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant to 
criticise styles - which I use extensively, and generally find useful.


There are however situations where styles might not help. For example, 
when troubleshooting document formatting problems such as page or 
section options, or when special (manual) character formatting has 
been applied to styled paragraphs: this is where reveal codes can 
come in handy. Also, typically, Reveal codes was used by someone 
other than the original author... funny this has never been mentioned, 
given that it was the main reason why we had to use Reveal codes 
back when WordPerfect was the standard!


Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the 
Write/Edit Post interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | 
Text). I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my 
understanding that something like that is what people asking for 
Reveal codes might find useful.


As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, 
these two ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily 
mutually exclusive. So if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to 
be explained to us users, who do not understand, nor want to know, 
about the inner workings of the program.


Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can take 
the user's perspective is to listen to end users themselves. 
Ideally... without expecting them to be computer literate or (worse) 
accusing them to not put in the necessary time/effort to learn how to 
use the program.


Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as end ( 
dumb? :-) users.


marina
---
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@martadiello



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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3722/7012 - Release Date: 05/17/14

Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Steve's G-Mail]

Allow me to add my 'two-pence worth’ to this important discussion.

Seems to me that it has been well-explained earlier that a ‘reveal codes’-like 
solution (apparently as in WordPerfect) is not readily achievable within OO, as 
the formatting controls of OO don’t lend themselves to such a solution (either 
technically, or in a way that would enable users to achieve what they want).

IMHO, it’s clear from this correspondence that getting formats right can be a 
difficult task for many users, both casual and not (I regard myself as 
mid-point, but it can be difficult and frustrating - I don’t knowingly use 
styles). I particularly find nested lists (very difficult to achieve 
consistently to what I want (although I’m a big fan of OO generally).

I recommend the approach to the OO development team to start with a requirement 
to improve the formatting handling (particularly lists) - maybe that simple 
requirement can be generally shared by most contributors - without mandating 
any particular solution. That should give the developers the licence to examine 
any type of solution that will improve this apparently contentious and 
difficult area.

Best to all, Steve


On 19 May 2014, at 11:11, japples japp...@europa.com wrote:

 So far, this conversation boils down to:  use only styles which requires 
 casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and 
 possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show 
 consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is 
 cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.
 
 Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code.  
 Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is a 
 very helpful tool.
 
 Jack
 
 
 mt wrote:
 Sorry if there is some confusion here, as I for one never meant to criticise 
 styles - which I use extensively, and generally find useful.
 
 There are however situations where styles might not help. For example, when 
 troubleshooting document formatting problems such as page or section 
 options, or when special (manual) character formatting has been applied to 
 styled paragraphs: this is where reveal codes can come in handy. Also, 
 typically, Reveal codes was used by someone other than the original 
 author... funny this has never been mentioned, given that it was the main 
 reason why we had to use Reveal codes back when WordPerfect was the 
 standard!
 
 Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the 
 Write/Edit Post interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | Text). 
 I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my understanding 
 that something like that is what people asking for Reveal codes might find 
 useful.
 
 As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, these two 
 ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily mutually exclusive. So 
 if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to be explained to us users, who 
 do not understand, nor want to know, about the inner workings of the 
 program.
 
 Lastly, and by the by: I believe the only way a programmer can take the 
 user's perspective is to listen to end users themselves. Ideally... without 
 expecting them to be computer literate or (worse) accusing them to not put 
 in the necessary time/effort to learn how to use the program.
 
 Thank you for suggesting ways how we might be able to help, as end ( dumb? 
 :-) users.
 
 marina
 ---
 MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8
 @martadiello
 
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org
 For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
 
 
 
 -
 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3722/7012 - Release Date: 05/17/14
 
 
 

Best Regards,
Steve Caine



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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Andrew Douglas Pitonyak]

On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote:
So far, this conversation boils down to:  use only styles which 
requires casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable 
their use and possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules 
or show consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code 
feature which is cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of 
creating conflicts.


That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate 
the need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more 
difficult to implement. I think that the real problem is that it 
requires a knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code 
the solution) to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, 
community developed software. So, the trick is to convince a particular 
person to spend time / energy on that particular feature. In this case, 
it means that the feature must be first designed, since a design does 
not exist, and, the general usage pattern is sufficiently different, 
that it is not obvious to me that saying copy from WP is sufficient.


Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the 
hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on 
the CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for 
implementation.


https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395

So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen. 
Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the 
feature. WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want 
it enough to put one of their votes towards it in over 10 years feels 
a little spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do 
not know that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't 
have a handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, 
and I lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative 
to other requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their 
votes towards it.


https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.htmlbug_id=3395



Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view 
code.  Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing 
the codes is a very helpful tool.


Jack


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[許哲崇]

If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
what is the problem?


2014-05-19 20:17 GMT+08:00 Andrew Douglas Pitonyak and...@pitonyak.org:


 On 05/19/2014 06:11 AM, japples wrote:

 So far, this conversation boils down to:  use only styles which requires
 casual users to travel the steep learning curve to enable their use and
 possibility of creating conflicts with other style rules or show
 consideration to the casual user and provide a reveal code feature which is
 cleaner / more direct and does not have potential of creating conflicts.


 That is the preferred way of using the product, but it does not negate the
 need for the feature. It does, however, possibly make it more difficult to
 implement. I think that the real problem is that it requires a
 knowledgeable person (as in someone who would be able to code the solution)
 to care enough to choose to do it. This is, after all, community developed
 software. So, the trick is to convince a particular person to spend time /
 energy on that particular feature. In this case, it means that the feature
 must be first designed, since a design does not exist, and, the general
 usage pattern is sufficiently different, that it is not obvious to me that
 saying copy from WP is sufficient.

 Finding someone that cares enough to actually implement really is the
 hardest part. The product has many users, but, I only see 25 people on the
 CC list for the enhancement request and only 201 votes for implementation.

 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395

 So, if one talented person cares enough to do it, it will happen.
 Otherwise, I suppose that sufficient people need to vote for the feature.
 WIth as many users as exist, only finding 201 people who want it enough to
 put one of their votes towards it in over 10 years feels a little
 spartan. Perhaps the problem is that the people that want it do not know
 that they can vote for it. I will admit, however, that I don't have a
 handle on how many votes it would require to push it up the list, and I
 lack the time right now to check to see where it stands relative to other
 requests. I do see that most people that voted put two of their votes
 towards it.

 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/page.cgi?id=voting/bug.htmlbug_id=3395



 Compared to using wysiwyg web page creator without ability to view code.
  Styles does nothing to correct skewed page; however, viewing the codes is
 a very helpful tool.

 Jack


 --
 Andrew Pitonyak
 My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
 Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php



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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Doug]

On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote:

If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
what is the problem?




The problem is that most versions of WordPerfect don't run on Linux.
(WordPerfect 12 word processor only will run, but can't read the latest
Microsoft formats. Also, it may be difficult to find the program.)

--doug


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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Jim McLaughlin]

All the more reason why the open source community operating under the
Apache umbrella should add a Reveal Codes analog to OO.


On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:01 AM, Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net wrote:


 On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote:

 If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
 what is the problem?



  The problem is that most versions of WordPerfect don't run on Linux.
 (WordPerfect 12 word processor only will run, but can't read the latest
 Microsoft formats. Also, it may be difficult to find the program.)

 --doug



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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Andrew Douglas Pitonyak]

On 05/19/2014 09:38 AM, 許哲崇 wrote:

If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
what is the problem?

No problem at all... :-)

The potential issue is that loading in a different editor will cause 
slightly different things to be displayed (at least that is my 
experience based on different formats, especially if there is something 
tricky or complicated about the text).


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Julian Thomas]

On 19 May 2014, at 03:34, mt m...@lockedbags.org wrote:

 Anyhow, a (very basic) example of how this could be obtained is in the 
 Write/Edit Post interface in WordPress, with its two tabs (Visual | Text). 
 I have no idea whether this is possible in OO - but it is my understanding 
 that something like that is what people asking for Reveal codes might find 
 useful.
 
 As WordPress demonstrates and Richard Detwiler already suggested, these two 
 ways of looking at a written page are not necessarily mutually exclusive. So 
 if they are in OO, maybe this is what needs to be explained to us users, who 
 do not understand, nor want to know, about the inner workings of the 
 program.

Ah, but WordPress creates HTML pages - open one in a text editor and all is 
revealed [a knowledge of html is a prerequisite].

I am not amongst those who are demanding the 'reveal codes' feature - at least 
now, but I do think that an essential part of the development process IS 
providing useful tutorials or guides in addition to reference manuals.  Arcane 
reference manuals went out in the late 1960's!

jt - digital curmudgeon since the mid 1950's.
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Re: Reveal Codes Query - or Re: Suggestion.

[Julian Thomas]

On 19 May 2014, at 09:38, 許哲崇 fide...@gmail.com wrote:

 If we use OpenOffice to edit the file and use WordPerfect to reveal code,
 what is the problem?

lack of a current wordperfect and why should we pay for it if we are committed 
to OO?  jt
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Re: Reveal Codes Query

[Andrew Douglas Pitonyak]

On 05/17/2014 04:35 PM, Johnny Rosenberg wrote:

2014-05-16 20:38 GMT+02:00 japples japp...@europa.com:


Does a list exist for OO users to vote for proposed future
functionalities?  I would like to vote for Reveal Codes.

Reveal Codes is a very useful tool.  It works independently of the Style
rules and does not require the user to take time to search style rules
then create or edit (causes changes in other documents?)

Logically, it seems the more style rules the less efficient  OO Writer.

Guess you could say, reveal codes is like lifting the hood of a vehicle to
change spark plugs.  While style rules feature is  similar to
re-configuring the vehicle to operate bypassing spark plugs (takes more
time and effort by the user).

Thanks for your patience -
Jack


I think I remember some very intense discussions about this a couple of

years ago, it was almost like some kind of war or something… Some people
said it will never happen since there is nothing to reveal (Apache
OpenOffice just doesn't work like that). Still someone managed to write an
extension that does this, I think. I guess it fakes it somehow. Some people
also think that it's not a good habit using them, and that styles is the
way to go and so on. Some people also says that it's a bad habit to use a
lot of character styles in text. So it seems like a lot of people are
against the idea of reveal codes while others want them. I don't know. I
have no use for them personally, so I don't care, but… well…


Johnny Rosenberg

It has been a long time since I tested the macro, so I don't remember 
what it showed and what it did not. If you really want to design this, 
then, it should likely not just be a duplicate of Word Perfect 
functionality. For example, what if


My paragraph style sets character weight (that means how BOLD is it). 
Then, I manually set a bold amount, and, finally, I apply a character 
style that sets the character weight differently. Now, understand that 
if I do this in a macro, it is not as simple as bold is on or off, I can 
set a numeric value for it for all three of these things. This level of 
subtlety does not exist in the WP reveal codes stuff, it is merely on / 
off. This could be very confusing if I have the three bold settings so 
that they are all marginally bold (like say 90% bold, 100% bold, and 
110% bold).


My head hurts now!

I assume that this feature (which would be cool to have) has likely not 
been seriously attempted for integration since a real implementation 
would require you to deal with these issues. Also, the macro version of 
the implementation is far from a working implementation. Think of it as 
a way to troll the code and then show an XML like version of the text in 
a dialog with certain change types shown; if my memory is correct.


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Re: Reveal Codes Query

[Johnny Rosenberg]

2014-05-16 20:38 GMT+02:00 japples japp...@europa.com:

 Does a list exist for OO users to vote for proposed future
 functionalities?  I would like to vote for Reveal Codes.

 Reveal Codes is a very useful tool.  It works independently of the Style
 rules and does not require the user to take time to search style rules
 then create or edit (causes changes in other documents?)

 Logically, it seems the more style rules the less efficient  OO Writer.

 Guess you could say, reveal codes is like lifting the hood of a vehicle to
 change spark plugs.  While style rules feature is  similar to
 re-configuring the vehicle to operate bypassing spark plugs (takes more
 time and effort by the user).

 Thanks for your patience -
 Jack


 I think I remember some very intense discussions about this a couple of
years ago, it was almost like some kind of war or something… Some people
said it will never happen since there is nothing to reveal (Apache
OpenOffice just doesn't work like that). Still someone managed to write an
extension that does this, I think. I guess it fakes it somehow. Some people
also think that it's not a good habit using them, and that styles is the
way to go and so on. Some people also says that it's a bad habit to use a
lot of character styles in text. So it seems like a lot of people are
against the idea of reveal codes while others want them. I don't know. I
have no use for them personally, so I don't care, but… well…


Johnny Rosenberg

Re: reveal codes

[Eric Fenster]

 Try /View /Non printing characters.  This allows one to exactly position the 
 cursor.


That's totally different. It shows paragraph breaks and spaces, not formatting 
codes.

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Re: reveal codes

[Rory O'Farrell]

A short response to many of the points raised in this thread, to quote which 
points would be tedious and not very relevant to this posting.  

Would it be possible to reach a broad equivalent of reveal codes by 
incorporating an XML analysis screen.facility, which would look at the 
underlying XML code and highlight what it felt were departures from correct 
syntax?  

Such an analysis would be useful for irregular formatting in Write, much as the 
reveal codes advocates require, but perhaps more importantly for the many 
cases of broken .ODF files, usually Calc, where an error message indicates an 
(undefined) error at row,column.  Several such cases occur every month, which 
can often be cured by deleteing a bad formatting sequence at XML level.

-- 
Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie

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Re: reveal codes

[Dan Lewis]

On 01/21/2013 11:29 AM, Eric Fenster wrote:

Try /View /Non printing characters.  This allows one to exactly position the 
cursor.


That's totally different. It shows paragraph breaks and spaces, not formatting 
codes.

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 What difference does it make? LO does not have formatting codes. 
Why insist that it should? If you miss the way WP works as a text 
editor, why don't you use WP? How much work would it take to develop 
them? Is this really worth the expense, time, etc. to do it? What are 
you willing to do to help? Why not learn how to use LO better? There 
seems to be several people who would like formatting codes. Why don't 
this group get together and build an extension that will do what you 
want it to do? Show us that it can be done.
  Yes, I am disappointed with this continued discussion of why 
format codes are better than styles. Of course it is very likely that 
some information about what has to be done when using formatting codes 
is not included. And yes, some information is also left out when 
mentioning what has to be done when using styles.
 A real test is to take a 1000 word text document with 100 
formatting errors. A correct version of the document must be available 
so that the people making the corrections know what the final formatting 
should be. List how to correct the errors using formatting codes. Then 
list how to correct the errors using styles. Then compare how many steps 
each one of these took. How much time did it take to do each one?
It is easy to make statements about either one, and this has been 
done recently as well as when there was an extended discussion about 
this same issue. Very little if anything has been said that was not said 
one time and usually many times then.


--Dan

Re: reveal codes

[Eric Fenster]

Gosh, I wish we could display a screen shot here of what we're talking about!



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Re: reveal codes

[Eric Fenster]

 document with 100 formatting errors. A correct version of the document must 
 be available

It's not so much about errors as the ease of making changes when revising 
one's text.

People who write exactly what their final version should be the first time may 
have to deal with errors. The rest of us have to edit and revise to achieve 
the final result.

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Re: reveal codes

[Regina Henschel]

Hi Eric,

Eric Fenster schrieb:

Styles doesn't begin to do what Reveal Codes does.

Just simple things like when Bold or Italics stop and start, where
languages change, etc. It's far easier to SEE a code, delete where
necessary or place a cursor.

Reveal codes seems to be the major feature that keeps people using
Word Perfect. here's got to be a reason. Why Word never did this, I
don't know, but Open Office should.


OpenOffice has the feature to search for attributes and formats and mark 
the text parts accordingly. Have you ever use it?


It is very powerful. But one shortcoming is, that it looses the 
highlighting when you click in the text to edit something. Perhaps it 
would help to make the marking persistent until the user turns it off 
explicitly or searches again?


Kind regards
Regina


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Re: reveal codes

[Dan Lewis]

On 01/21/2013 01:47 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:

Hi Eric,

Eric Fenster schrieb:

Styles doesn't begin to do what Reveal Codes does.

Just simple things like when Bold or Italics stop and start, where
languages change, etc. It's far easier to SEE a code, delete where
necessary or place a cursor.

Reveal codes seems to be the major feature that keeps people using
Word Perfect. here's got to be a reason. Why Word never did this, I
don't know, but Open Office should.


OpenOffice has the feature to search for attributes and formats and 
mark the text parts accordingly. Have you ever use it?


It is very powerful. But one shortcoming is, that it looses the 
highlighting when you click in the text to edit something. Perhaps it 
would help to make the marking persistent until the user turns it off 
explicitly or searches again?


Kind regards
Regina
One comment about the shortcoming: Once you click in the text, you 
can click Find again to highlight the next occurrence. Below the 
vertical scroll bar are two double arrows. Once you have defined a 
search, you can use these to search forward or backward.


--Dan

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Re: Reveal codes?

[Robert Funnell]

At https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395 you can see some 
of the history of this request. I would love to see it but I don't 
know if it will ever happen.


On Sun, 20 Jan 2013, Eric Fenster wrote:


What chance Open Office will offer reveal codes à la Word Perfect?

This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program, as crash-prone as it is. 
The feature really helps control formatting.

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Re: reveal codes

[Brian Barker]

At 11:10 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen Etters wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST), Eric Fenster wrote:

What chance Open Office will offer reveal codes à la Word Perfect?

This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect 
program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting.


I'm with Eric on this one.   I've pined for that 
Word Perfect feature for many years.   I doubt 
we'll ever get it, but I wish I still had a copy 
of Word Perfect.  The styles feature doesn't 
replace WP's ability to find and delete a single troubling code.


The only reason you can have a single troubling 
code is that the program is faulty.  Wouldn't it 
be more sensible to correct the program so that 
this couldn't occur?  The reason why Word Perfect 
could have single troubling codes is precisely 
because users were allowed to tinker with them and introduce mistakes.


Any word processor needs a simple way of 
displaying the structure of a document, so that 
the user can easily see why it is how it is, but 
that does not have to be in the form of tags 
before and after any item; in fact, there are 
better ways.  I'm not sure that OpenOffice Writer 
lives up to this requirement, in fact - or 
perhaps I haven't learned enough about how to use it?


No: styles do not replace the need to be able to 
see how a document works, but they may preclude 
the user making low-level changes as you wish to 
do.  Incidentally, it once was a well-known fact 
in programming circles that people brought up on 
low-level approaches find it difficult to 
transfer to higher-level ways of 
thinking.  Persevere, and you will like the ways of Writer!


Brian Barker



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Re: reveal codes

[Rory O'Farrell]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 08:27:19 -0800 (PST)
Eric Fenster eric...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Styles doesn't begin to do what Reveal Codes does.
 
 Just simple things like when Bold or Italics stop and start, where languages 
 change, etc. It's far easier to SEE a code, delete where necessary or place a 
 cursor.

Bold and Italics should best be applied as Character Styles (strong emphasis 
and emphasis, respectively); Foreign language insrtions could be character 
style Quoation.  As OpenOffice is a WYSIWYG editor, they show up on screen 
where they start and stop.  

On the en-Forum there is a useful listing of the predefined styles
http://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=71t=48530

 
 Reveal codes seems to be the major feature that keeps people using Word 
 Perfect. here's got to be a reason. Why Word never did this, I don't know, 
 but Open Office should.

This seems to me to be dinosaur mentality.  I once wrote a macro processor to 
strip formatting codes from Wordstar and print a book to an unsupported output 
device.  I haven't had to do that since 1988, thanks to WYSIWYG.



 
 --- On Sun, 1/20/13, Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie wrote:
 
  From: Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
  Subject: Re: reveal codes
  To: users@openoffice.apache.org
  Cc: Eric Fenster eric...@yahoo.com
  Date: Sunday, January 20, 2013, 6:06 AM
  On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800
  (PST)
  Eric Fenster eric...@yahoo.com
  wrote:
  
   What chance Open Office will offer reveal codes à la
  Word Perfect?
   
   This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect program,
  as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control
  formatting.
   
  Consistent use of styles should obviate the need for
  this.  Also useful is /View /Nonprinting characters, to
  reveal spaces, tabs and line or paragraph breaks.
  -- 
  Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
  
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-- 
Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie

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Re: reveal codes

[Brian Barker]

At 12:21 20/01/2013 -0500, Alan Boba wrote:

On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Brian Barker wrote:

At 11:10 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen Etters wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:42:46 -0800 (PST), Eric Fenster wrote:

What chance Open Office will offer reveal codes à la Word Perfect?

This is the reason I keep my old Word Perfect 
program, as crash-prone as it is. The feature really helps control formatting.


I'm with Eric on this one.   I've pined for 
that Word Perfect feature for many years.   I 
doubt we'll ever get it, but I wish I still 
had a copy of Word Perfect.  The styles 
feature doesn't replace WP's ability to find 
and delete a single troubling code.


The only reason you can have a single troubling 
code is that the program is faulty.  Wouldn't 
it be more sensible to correct the program so 
that this couldn't occur?  The reason why Word 
Perfect could have single troubling codes is 
precisely because users were allowed to tinker 
with them and introduce mistakes.


My 2¢, I've run across some troubling documents 
with formatting that seemed impossible to 
manage. (Could post sample if its desirable). In 
those few rare cases much frustration and time 
could have been saved with a reveal codes feature.


I agree.  As Dennis Hamilton said, ability to 
reveal the styling that applies at any given 
place in the text would be very handy in 
trouble-shooting a document.  But the user must 
*not* be allowed to tinker with formatting at 
this level, instead being required to make the 
changes in the right pace - which will now have become apparent.


My recollection of Wordperfect history is reveal 
codes was a workaround added to allow users to 
correct format bugs that early versions of the program had.


That's interesting.  I didn't know this, but it makes complete sense.

Brian Barker



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Re: reveal codes

[Brian Barker]

At 12:38 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen wrote:
I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code.   I meant 
something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide 
this is not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an 
adjustment.  Your document looks wrong but you don't know how to 
find the formatting element that you inserted and now wish to 
delete.  In WP, that is easy. Press Reveal Codes, find the code you 
don't want, and delete it.


I'm with you all the way - except for the last three words!

If your document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the 
formatting element that you inserted, you certainly need a simple 
way to discover this.  (I don't know whether any problems I have in 
this area are Writer's or mine!)  But users must not be allowed to 
make changes at that level; instead, they must be required, having 
discovered what the problem is, to solve it where it was 
caused.  Anything else breaks the structure.


Brian Barker



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Re: reveal codes

[James Plante]

If the document looks wrong, and you can't find out why, then just select 
default formatting to clear all formatting. Then reapply the correct format. 
Two mouse-clicks, no waiting. 

Jim Plante

On Jan 20, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Brian Barker b.m.bar...@btinternet.com wrote:

 At 12:38 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen wrote:
 I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code.   I meant 
 something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide this is 
 not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an adjustment.  Your 
 document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element 
 that you inserted and now wish to delete.  In WP, that is easy. Press Reveal 
 Codes, find the code you don't want, and delete it.
 
 I'm with you all the way - except for the last three words!
 
 If your document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting 
 element that you inserted, you certainly need a simple way to discover this. 
  (I don't know whether any problems I have in this area are Writer's or 
 mine!)  But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level; instead, 
 they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it 
 where it was caused.  Anything else breaks the structure.
 
 Brian Barker
 
 
 
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Re: reveal codes

[Eric Fenster]

I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with 
the Reveal Codes  function in WP.

First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and 
off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the screen 
is under complete control.

You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another  
-- IF you want it.

This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which are 
all or nothing and litter the entire text.

Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite 
happily alongside the reveal codes option.

 But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; 
 instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to 
 solve it where it was caused.  Anything else breaks the structure.

I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation.

If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal 
type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be allowed 
to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold 
code and deleting it, what great law am I violating?

There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal.

 

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Re: reveal codes

[Eric Fenster]

 just select default formatting to clear all formatting.

Why destroy everything and start over if all that's necessary is to put the 
cursor on a code and DEL

For ex, a hard page break that becomes out of place because text has been added 
during editing. Click on the page break code, it's done. The doc reformats.



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Re: reveal codes

[Alan Boba]

On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 1:45 PM, James Plante jimpla...@me.com wrote:

 If the document looks wrong, and you can't find out why, then just select
 default formatting to clear all formatting. Then reapply the correct
 format. Two mouse-clicks, no waiting.

 I did try that, it failed to resolve the problem also.


 Jim Plante

 On Jan 20, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Brian Barker b.m.bar...@btinternet.com
 wrote:

  At 12:38 20/01/2013 -0500, Helen wrote:
  I should have clarified what I meant by a troubling code.   I meant
 something that I (or any user) might put in, and then later decide this is
 not exactly the way you want it, and so wish to make an adjustment.  Your
 document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the formatting element
 that you inserted and now wish to delete.  In WP, that is easy. Press
 Reveal Codes, find the code you don't want, and delete it.
 
  I'm with you all the way - except for the last three words!
 
  If your document looks wrong but you don't know how to find the
 formatting element that you inserted, you certainly need a simple way to
 discover this.  (I don't know whether any problems I have in this area are
 Writer's or mine!)  But users must not be allowed to make changes at that
 level; instead, they must be required, having discovered what the problem
 is, to solve it where it was caused.  Anything else breaks the structure.
 
  Brian Barker
 
 
 
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-- 
Alan Boba
CISSP, CCENT, ITIL v3 Foundations 2011

Re: reveal codes

[Eric Fenster]

If attachments work here, there will be a screen shot of WP with the Reveal 
Codes window open.

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Re: reveal codes

[johnny smith]

On Sunday, 20 January 2013 19:46:18, Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net wrote:

 Why must you insist on making the writer go thru hoops to fix something 
 when Reveal Codes can do it for him quickly and easily? Just let us have 
 the capability--if *you* want to go thru those
 hoops, then go ahead--I don't want to have to!

formatting through styles is a 'clean' way, while low-level tags are a 'dirty' 
path--
which is a nightmare for a person sticking to styles and structure. these're 
simply two incompatible ways of seeing things, and the philosophy of oo is 
likely 
to be the 'styles' one. however, you're always welcome to open any oo 
document as a zip archive and view--or even edit--the low-level picture with 
all 
tags included within content.xml. there were cases when i was about to do that, 
desperate to fix some particular problem by usual gui means, but in the end i 
always managed to find a more conventional way of fixing things.

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RE: reveal codes

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I don't believe that the Styles box includes automatic styles which are created 
(and not visibly named) as the result of in-line actions.  There may be other 
indications, but not that.

I'm certain that a feature to reveal all the styling that applies somewhere 
would be useful.  I don't think that's the barrier so much.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Rod Lockwood [mailto:rodlockw...@provide.net] 
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 19:15
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: reveal codes

[ ... ] Also, you can see what the formatting is at any  
given point by looking at the apply styles box, if you have it visible on  
your toolbar. You are then able to fix the problem by highlighting the  
area and applying/changing the style. If that doesn’t work, then you need  
to change the style, create a modification of the style, or override the  
style with a manual change. I do not understand what is meant by “at that  
level”. It is not as if you are changing the programming code. You are  
just using the options already available in the toolbar.

Another way to find formatting problems is to call up the styles box, have  
it show the applied styles, and watch what happens when you move your  
cursor over an area of text. The box will highlight the style that is  
being used at the cursor.

However, as I recall, I had a problem where the old style was still  
lingering at the end of the paragraph unseen. It should have been removed,  
but since it was not showing, I left it and it caused problems later on.

Seems to me this is a feature that could be useful, or at least a  
different approach to solving a problem that some people are used to  
having and that others may find that they prefer it as well. Sort of like  
the old autosave feature I would like as an option, but some people think  
is inferior to the current autorecovery system most office suites use  
today.

Besides, if a feature does not work out, you can always remove it in a  
later version, but at least you give people an option and you give the  
feature a chance to prove itself.

-- 
Rod Lockwood

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Re: reveal codes

[Martin Groenescheij]

On 21/01/2013 5:51 AM, Eric Fenster wrote:

I wish people who have made some of the comments actually had experience with 
the Reveal Codes  function in WP.

First, for those not familiar with it, the Reveal Codes can be turned on and 
off and the amount of space (number of lines of text) it consumes on the screen 
is under complete control.

You have unencumbered text in one window, and text with the codes in another  
-- IF you want it.

This is very different from turning on codes like paragraph markers, which are 
all or nothing and litter the entire text.

Second, all this talk about styles is totally irrelevant. Styles exist quite 
happily alongside the reveal codes option.


But users must not be allowed to make changes at that level [delete]; instead, 
they must be required, having discovered what the problem is, to solve it where 
it was caused.  Anything else breaks the structure.

I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation.

If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal type when I 
review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be allowed to change a 
word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold code and deleting it, 
what great law am I violating?
That's exactly how you do it in OpenOffice, select the word and click on 
the Bold icon. I don't need a reveal code for that simple task.


There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal.

  


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RE: reveal codes

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I'm assuming that the text in the original message, below, is from Martin.

There is a structure being created, even though all you see is your selection, 
your clicking of the bold button (or use of Format | Character to do the same), 
and the selected text of one or more characters being rendered in boldface.  If 
it is all in the same paragraph and just text, a structural element is being 
created. (Otherwise, multiple adjacent structures might be created and they are 
independent thereafter.) There will be an automatically-defined style that 
causes the bolding.  

If you select the text again and remove the boldface, there may or may not be 
some residual structure and a different style in its place.  

This is mostly invisible except when it isn't.  Then it becomes difficult to 
overcome some weird effect that you can't overcome because of this invisible 
structuring and styling and some sort of conflict that results.  You can't even 
get your hands on what it is.  Some sort of Reveal Styling would allow you to 
remedy that.

For good or ill, this is the only way what you did can be represented in the 
native ODF Format of OpenOffice-lineage software, including Apache OpenOffice.

 - Dennis


-Original Message-
From: Martin Groenescheij [mailto:mar...@groenescheij.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 20:28
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: reveal codes

[ ... ]

 I really don't understand this rather authoritarian recommendation.

 If I write something in bold and want to convert one or some words to normal 
 type when I review my text, that's my business. Why should I not be allowed 
 to change a word? And if I can do that by simply putting my cursor on a Bold 
 code and deleting it, what great law am I violating?
That's exactly how you do it in OpenOffice, select the word and click on 
the Bold icon. I don't need a reveal code for that simple task.

 There's no structure being broken, just editing between bold and normal.

[ ... ]


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Re: reveal codes

[Eric Fenster]

 That's exactly how you do it in OpenOffice, select the word and click on
the Bold icon. 

It's not that simple. In Open Office you have to be careful about selecting 
spaces AFTER a word.

If you select a word to make bold and happen to include the space after the 
word, then come back when editing your text and remove the bold or remove the 
word but fail to take account of what you originally did to the space following 
the word, the bold code is still there, invisible. You start typing your 
replacement word or additional text and it is bold, unintentionally.

With reveal codes, you see and can remove what has become a stray, unwanted 
bold code.

Again, reveal codes is voluntary, in a separate window, it doesn't clutter your 
basic text but gives much fuller and easier control over it.

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