subject:"Re\: \[Wikidata\-l\] weekly summary #108"

Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
A language is eligible in the WMF context when the language committee says
so. You can find a list of languages that were requested on Meta. In
principle a language will be pronounced as eligible when it has an
ISO-639-3 code and when people ask for it.

As you may know, in the past there were people who asked for any and all
language because they could. That proved to be a mistake. The result is
that people demanded no more new languages and as a compromise the language
committee and policy came into being.

Consequently, the first step after the ability to support languages in
Wikidata is to enable the eligible new languages with an Incubator project.
When this is done, the language committee will consider other languages.
One at a time and with a request on Meta.
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 7 May 2014 11:48, P. Blissenbach  wrote:

> How is "eligible" defined in this context? Is there a general list of
> eligible languages somewhere?
> Or a list of ones not eligible?
>
> Purodha
>
> "Gerard Meijssen"  writes:
>
> Hoi,
> The list I am looking for include only the ones that are eligible. Many in
> this list are already supported as well (Indonesian for instance) and there
> are also languages in there that are not eligible.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 7 May 2014 11:16, P. Blissenbach  wrote:"Gerard
> Meijssen"  writes:
>
> []
>
> > The plan is to ask to enable all eligible languages that have
> > an Incubator presence for Wikidata first. What needs doing is
> > for someone to make a list of the languages involved.
>  Here you go - I extracted all language codes and names from the
> list of incubator wikis at:
>
>
> https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis[https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis]
>
> in alphabetical order:
>
> aa  Afar
> aaf Eranadan
> ab  Abkhaz
> abl Lampung Nyo
> abq Abaza
> abv Bahrani Arabic
> acf Saint Lucian Creole
> ach Acholi
> ada Adangme
> adh Dhopadhola
> ady Adyghe
> aeb Tunisian Arabic
> af  Afrikaans
> agx Aghul
> ain Ainu
> ajp South Levantine Arabic
> ak  Akan
> akz Alabama
> aln Gheg Albanian
> alr Alyutor
> alt Southern Altai
> ami Amis
> amr Amarakaeri
> an  Aragonese
> ang Old English
> anp Angika
> apc North Levantine Arabic
> ar  Arabic
> arc Syriac
> arn Mapudungun
> aro Araona
> arq Algerian Arabic
> ary Maroccan Arabic
> arz Egyptian Arabic
> as  Assamese
> ast Asturian
> atv Northern Altai
> av  Avar
> awa Awadhi
> ayl Libyan Arabic
> ayn Sanaani Arabic
> az  Azerbaijani
> azb South Azerbaijani
> ba  Bashkir
> bal Balochi
> ban Balinese
> bas Ɓasaá
> bbc Batak Toba
> bbj Ghomala
> bcc Southern Baluchi
> bcl Bikol
> be  Belarusian
> bew Betawi
> bfq Badaga
> bft Balti
> bg  Bulgarian
> bgp Eastern Balochi
> bhb Bhili
> bh  Bhojpuri
> bhw Biak
> bin Edo
> bm  Bambara
> bn  Bengali
> bo  Tibetan
> bqi Bakhtiari
> brh Brahui
> brx Bodo
> bsk Burushaski
> bss Akoose
> btd Batak Dairi
> btm Batak Mandailing
> bto Rinconada
> bts Batak Simalungun
> btx Batak Karo
> btz Alas
> bug Buginese
> bum Bulu
> bxr Buryat
> ca  Catalan
> cak Kaqchikel
> ccp Chakma
> ch  Chamorro
> chi Chin
> chn Chinook Jargon
> cho Choctaw
> cim Cimbrian
> cjs Shor
> ckb Kurdish (Sorani)
> ckb Sorani Kurdish
> ckt Chukchi
> ckv Kavalan
> clw Chulym
> cmn Mandarin Chinese
> cnh Hakha Chin
> co  Corsican
> co  Corsu
> cop Coptic
> cps Capiznon
> cpx Pu-Xian Min
> cs  Czech
> cts Pandan Bikol
> cv  Chuvash
> cy  Welsh
> da  Danish
> dar Dargwa
> ddg Fataluku
> dgo Dogri
> diq Zazaki
> dlg Dolgan
> dlm Dalmatian
> dng Dungan
> dtp Dusun
> dum Middle Dutch
> dun Deyah
> dyu Dyula
> dz  Dzongkha
> ee  Ewe
> egl Emilian
> enf Enets
> enm Middle English
> eo  Esperanto
> ese Eqpl Ese
> ese Ese Ejja
> ess Central Siberian Yupik
> esu Central Alaskan Yup'ik
> et  Estonian
> eu  Basque
> eve Even
> evn Evenki
> ewo Ewondo
> fa  Persian
> fax Fala
> fi  Finnish
> fil Filipino
> fit Meänkieli
> fkv Kven
> fo  Faroese
> frc Cajun French
> fro Old French
> gaa Ga
> ga  Irish
> gan Gan
> gay Gayo
> gbm Garhwali
> gcf Guadeloupean Creole
> gil Gilbertese
> gld Nanai
> gl  Galician
> glk Gilaki
> goh Old High German
> gom Konkani
> gor Gorontalo
> grc Ancient Greek
> guc Wayuu
> gur Frafra
> gvr Gurung
> hac Hawrami
> hak Hakka
> haw Hawaiian
> haz Hazaragi
> hif Fiji Hindi
> hi  Hindi
> hil Hiligaynon
> hnd Hindko
> hne Chhattisg

Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-07 Thread P. Blissenbach

How is "eligible" defined in this context? Is there a general list of eligible 
languages somewhere?
Or a list of ones not eligible?

Purodha

"Gerard Meijssen"  writes:

Hoi,
The list I am looking for include only the ones that are eligible. Many in this 
list are already supported as well (Indonesian for instance) and there are also 
languages in there that are not eligible.
Thanks,
     GerardM
 
On 7 May 2014 11:16, P. Blissenbach  wrote:"Gerard Meijssen" 
 writes:

[]
 
> The plan is to ask to enable all eligible languages that have
> an Incubator presence for Wikidata first. What needs doing is
> for someone to make a list of the languages involved.
 Here you go - I extracted all language codes and names from the
list of incubator wikis at:

https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis[https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis]

in alphabetical order:

aa      Afar
aaf     Eranadan
ab      Abkhaz
abl     Lampung Nyo
abq     Abaza
abv     Bahrani Arabic
acf     Saint Lucian Creole
ach     Acholi
ada     Adangme
adh     Dhopadhola
ady     Adyghe
aeb     Tunisian Arabic
af      Afrikaans
agx     Aghul
ain     Ainu
ajp     South Levantine Arabic
ak      Akan
akz     Alabama
aln     Gheg Albanian
alr     Alyutor
alt     Southern Altai
ami     Amis
amr     Amarakaeri
an      Aragonese
ang     Old English
anp     Angika
apc     North Levantine Arabic
ar      Arabic
arc     Syriac
arn     Mapudungun
aro     Araona
arq     Algerian Arabic
ary     Maroccan Arabic
arz     Egyptian Arabic
as      Assamese
ast     Asturian
atv     Northern Altai
av      Avar
awa     Awadhi
ayl     Libyan Arabic
ayn     Sanaani Arabic
az      Azerbaijani
azb     South Azerbaijani
ba      Bashkir
bal     Balochi
ban     Balinese
bas     Ɓasaá
bbc     Batak Toba
bbj     Ghomala
bcc     Southern Baluchi
bcl     Bikol
be      Belarusian
bew     Betawi
bfq     Badaga
bft     Balti
bg      Bulgarian
bgp     Eastern Balochi
bhb     Bhili
bh      Bhojpuri
bhw     Biak
bin     Edo
bm      Bambara
bn      Bengali
bo      Tibetan
bqi     Bakhtiari
brh     Brahui
brx     Bodo
bsk     Burushaski
bss     Akoose
btd     Batak Dairi
btm     Batak Mandailing
bto     Rinconada
bts     Batak Simalungun
btx     Batak Karo
btz     Alas
bug     Buginese
bum     Bulu
bxr     Buryat
ca      Catalan
cak     Kaqchikel
ccp     Chakma
ch      Chamorro
chi     Chin
chn     Chinook Jargon
cho     Choctaw
cim     Cimbrian
cjs     Shor
ckb     Kurdish (Sorani)
ckb     Sorani Kurdish
ckt     Chukchi
ckv     Kavalan
clw     Chulym
cmn     Mandarin Chinese
cnh     Hakha Chin
co      Corsican
co      Corsu
cop     Coptic
cps     Capiznon
cpx     Pu-Xian Min
cs      Czech
cts     Pandan Bikol
cv      Chuvash
cy      Welsh
da      Danish
dar     Dargwa
ddg     Fataluku
dgo     Dogri
diq     Zazaki
dlg     Dolgan
dlm     Dalmatian
dng     Dungan
dtp     Dusun
dum     Middle Dutch
dun     Deyah
dyu     Dyula
dz      Dzongkha
ee      Ewe
egl     Emilian
enf     Enets
enm     Middle English
eo      Esperanto
ese     Eqpl Ese
ese     Ese Ejja
ess     Central Siberian Yupik
esu     Central Alaskan Yup'ik
et      Estonian
eu      Basque
eve     Even
evn     Evenki
ewo     Ewondo
fa      Persian
fax     Fala
fi      Finnish
fil     Filipino
fit     Meänkieli
fkv     Kven
fo      Faroese
frc     Cajun French
fro     Old French
gaa     Ga
ga      Irish
gan     Gan
gay     Gayo
gbm     Garhwali
gcf     Guadeloupean Creole
gil     Gilbertese
gld     Nanai
gl      Galician
glk     Gilaki
goh     Old High German
gom     Konkani
gor     Gorontalo
grc     Ancient Greek
guc     Wayuu
gur     Frafra
gvr     Gurung
hac     Hawrami
hak     Hakka
haw     Hawaiian
haz     Hazaragi
hif     Fiji Hindi
hi      Hindi
hil     Hiligaynon
hnd     Hindko
hne     Chhattisgarhi
ho      Hiri Motu
hr      Croatian
hsn     Xiang
ht      Haitian Creole
hug     Huachipaeri
hu      Hungarian
hus     Wastek
hy      Armenian
hz      Herero
iar     Purari
iba     Iban
ibb     Ibibio
id      Indonesian
ig      Igbo
ii      Sichuan Yi
ili     Ili Turki
inh     Ingush
is      Icelandic
iso     Isoko
ist     Istriot
itl     Itelmen
izh     Ingrian
ja      Japanese
jam     Jamaican
jax     Jambi Malay
jct     Krymchak
jdt     Judeo-Tat
jut     Jutlandic
jv      Javanese
kab     Kabyle
kac     Jingpho
ka      Georgian
kbd     Circassian
kbp     Kabiye
kca     Khanty
kck     Kalanga
kdr     Karaim
kea     Cape Verdean Creole
ket     Ket
kev     Kanikkaran
kfr     Kutchi
kfy     Kumaoni
kge     Komering
kgp     Kaingang
kha     Khasi
khw     Khowar
kiu     Kirmanjki
kjh     Khakas
kj      Kuanyama
kk      Kazakh
klb     Kiliwa
kl      Greenlandic
kls     Kalash
kmr     Kurmanji
kmz     Khorasani Turkic
kn      Kannada
ko      Korean
kpy     Koryak
kri     Krio
krj     Kinaray-a
kr      Kanuri
krl     Karelian
ksf     Bafia
ksh     Colognian
ksw     S'gaw Karen
ku      Kurdish
kum     Kumyk
kvr     Kerinci
kxk     Zayein Karen
lad     Judaeo-Spanish (Ladino)
lad     Ladino
lag     Rangi
la

Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
The list I am looking for include only the ones that are eligible. Many in
this list are already supported as well (Indonesian for instance) and there
are also languages in there that are not eligible.
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 7 May 2014 11:16, P. Blissenbach  wrote:

> "Gerard Meijssen"  writes:
>
> []
>
> > The plan is to ask to enable all eligible languages that have
> > an Incubator presence for Wikidata first. What needs doing is
> > for someone to make a list of the languages involved.
>
> Here you go - I extracted all language codes and names from the
> list of incubator wikis at:
>
> https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis
>
> in alphabetical order:
>
> aa  Afar
> aaf Eranadan
> ab  Abkhaz
> abl Lampung Nyo
> abq Abaza
> abv Bahrani Arabic
> acf Saint Lucian Creole
> ach Acholi
> ada Adangme
> adh Dhopadhola
> ady Adyghe
> aeb Tunisian Arabic
> af  Afrikaans
> agx Aghul
> ain Ainu
> ajp South Levantine Arabic
> ak  Akan
> akz Alabama
> aln Gheg Albanian
> alr Alyutor
> alt Southern Altai
> ami Amis
> amr Amarakaeri
> an  Aragonese
> ang Old English
> anp Angika
> apc North Levantine Arabic
> ar  Arabic
> arc Syriac
> arn Mapudungun
> aro Araona
> arq Algerian Arabic
> ary Maroccan Arabic
> arz Egyptian Arabic
> as  Assamese
> ast Asturian
> atv Northern Altai
> av  Avar
> awa Awadhi
> ayl Libyan Arabic
> ayn Sanaani Arabic
> az  Azerbaijani
> azb South Azerbaijani
> ba  Bashkir
> bal Balochi
> ban Balinese
> bas Ɓasaá
> bbc Batak Toba
> bbj Ghomala
> bcc Southern Baluchi
> bcl Bikol
> be  Belarusian
> bew Betawi
> bfq Badaga
> bft Balti
> bg  Bulgarian
> bgp Eastern Balochi
> bhb Bhili
> bh  Bhojpuri
> bhw Biak
> bin Edo
> bm  Bambara
> bn  Bengali
> bo  Tibetan
> bqi Bakhtiari
> brh Brahui
> brx Bodo
> bsk Burushaski
> bss Akoose
> btd Batak Dairi
> btm Batak Mandailing
> bto Rinconada
> bts Batak Simalungun
> btx Batak Karo
> btz Alas
> bug Buginese
> bum Bulu
> bxr Buryat
> ca  Catalan
> cak Kaqchikel
> ccp Chakma
> ch  Chamorro
> chi Chin
> chn Chinook Jargon
> cho Choctaw
> cim Cimbrian
> cjs Shor
> ckb Kurdish (Sorani)
> ckb Sorani Kurdish
> ckt Chukchi
> ckv Kavalan
> clw Chulym
> cmn Mandarin Chinese
> cnh Hakha Chin
> co  Corsican
> co  Corsu
> cop Coptic
> cps Capiznon
> cpx Pu-Xian Min
> cs  Czech
> cts Pandan Bikol
> cv  Chuvash
> cy  Welsh
> da  Danish
> dar Dargwa
> ddg Fataluku
> dgo Dogri
> diq Zazaki
> dlg Dolgan
> dlm Dalmatian
> dng Dungan
> dtp Dusun
> dum Middle Dutch
> dun Deyah
> dyu Dyula
> dz  Dzongkha
> ee  Ewe
> egl Emilian
> enf Enets
> enm Middle English
> eo  Esperanto
> ese Eqpl Ese
> ese Ese Ejja
> ess Central Siberian Yupik
> esu Central Alaskan Yup'ik
> et  Estonian
> eu  Basque
> eve Even
> evn Evenki
> ewo Ewondo
> fa  Persian
> fax Fala
> fi  Finnish
> fil Filipino
> fit Meänkieli
> fkv Kven
> fo  Faroese
> frc Cajun French
> fro Old French
> gaa Ga
> ga  Irish
> gan Gan
> gay Gayo
> gbm Garhwali
> gcf Guadeloupean Creole
> gil Gilbertese
> gld Nanai
> gl  Galician
> glk Gilaki
> goh Old High German
> gom Konkani
> gor Gorontalo
> grc Ancient Greek
> guc Wayuu
> gur Frafra
> gvr Gurung
> hac Hawrami
> hak Hakka
> haw Hawaiian
> haz Hazaragi
> hif Fiji Hindi
> hi  Hindi
> hil Hiligaynon
> hnd Hindko
> hne Chhattisgarhi
> ho  Hiri Motu
> hr  Croatian
> hsn Xiang
> ht  Haitian Creole
> hug Huachipaeri
> hu  Hungarian
> hus Wastek
> hy  Armenian
> hz  Herero
> iar Purari
> iba Iban
> ibb Ibibio
> id  Indonesian
> ig  Igbo
> ii  Sichuan Yi
> ili Ili Turki
> inh Ingush
> is  Icelandic
> iso Isoko
> ist Istriot
> itl Itelmen
> izh Ingrian
> ja  Japanese
> jam Jamaican
> jax Jambi Malay
> jct Krymchak
> jdt Judeo-Tat
> jut Jutlandic
> jv  Javanese
> kab Kabyle
> kac Jingpho
> ka  Georgian
> kbd Circassian
> kbp Kabiye
> kca Khanty
> kck Kalanga
> kdr Karaim
> kea Cape Verdean Creole
> ket Ket
> kev Kanikkaran
> kfr Kutchi
> kfy Kumaoni
> kge Komering
> kgp Kaingang
> kha Khasi
> khw Khowar
> kiu Kirmanjki
> kjh Khakas
> kj  Kuanyama
> kk  Kazakh
> klb Kiliwa
> kl  Greenlandic
> kls Kalash
> kmr Kurmanji
> kmz Khorasani Turkic
> kn  Kannada
> ko  Korean
> kpy Koryak
> kri

Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-07 Thread P. Blissenbach

"Gerard Meijssen"  writes:

[]
 
> The plan is to ask to enable all eligible languages that have
> an Incubator presence for Wikidata first. What needs doing is
> for someone to make a list of the languages involved.

Here you go - I extracted all language codes and names from the
list of incubator wikis at:

https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis

in alphabetical order:

aa  Afar
aaf Eranadan
ab  Abkhaz
abl Lampung Nyo
abq Abaza
abv Bahrani Arabic
acf Saint Lucian Creole
ach Acholi
ada Adangme
adh Dhopadhola
ady Adyghe
aeb Tunisian Arabic
af  Afrikaans
agx Aghul
ain Ainu
ajp South Levantine Arabic
ak  Akan
akz Alabama
aln Gheg Albanian
alr Alyutor
alt Southern Altai
ami Amis
amr Amarakaeri
an  Aragonese
ang Old English
anp Angika
apc North Levantine Arabic
ar  Arabic
arc Syriac
arn Mapudungun
aro Araona
arq Algerian Arabic
ary Maroccan Arabic
arz Egyptian Arabic
as  Assamese
ast Asturian
atv Northern Altai
av  Avar
awa Awadhi
ayl Libyan Arabic
ayn Sanaani Arabic
az  Azerbaijani
azb South Azerbaijani
ba  Bashkir
bal Balochi
ban Balinese
bas Ɓasaá
bbc Batak Toba
bbj Ghomala
bcc Southern Baluchi
bcl Bikol
be  Belarusian
bew Betawi
bfq Badaga
bft Balti
bg  Bulgarian
bgp Eastern Balochi
bhb Bhili
bh  Bhojpuri
bhw Biak
bin Edo
bm  Bambara
bn  Bengali
bo  Tibetan
bqi Bakhtiari
brh Brahui
brx Bodo
bsk Burushaski
bss Akoose
btd Batak Dairi
btm Batak Mandailing
bto Rinconada
bts Batak Simalungun
btx Batak Karo
btz Alas
bug Buginese
bum Bulu
bxr Buryat
ca  Catalan
cak Kaqchikel
ccp Chakma
ch  Chamorro
chi Chin
chn Chinook Jargon
cho Choctaw
cim Cimbrian
cjs Shor
ckb Kurdish (Sorani)
ckb Sorani Kurdish
ckt Chukchi
ckv Kavalan
clw Chulym
cmn Mandarin Chinese
cnh Hakha Chin
co  Corsican
co  Corsu
cop Coptic
cps Capiznon
cpx Pu-Xian Min
cs  Czech
cts Pandan Bikol
cv  Chuvash
cy  Welsh
da  Danish
dar Dargwa
ddg Fataluku
dgo Dogri
diq Zazaki
dlg Dolgan
dlm Dalmatian
dng Dungan
dtp Dusun
dum Middle Dutch
dun Deyah
dyu Dyula
dz  Dzongkha
ee  Ewe
egl Emilian
enf Enets
enm Middle English
eo  Esperanto
ese Eqpl Ese
ese Ese Ejja
ess Central Siberian Yupik
esu Central Alaskan Yup'ik
et  Estonian
eu  Basque
eve Even
evn Evenki
ewo Ewondo
fa  Persian
fax Fala
fi  Finnish
fil Filipino
fit Meänkieli
fkv Kven
fo  Faroese
frc Cajun French
fro Old French
gaa Ga
ga  Irish
gan Gan
gay Gayo
gbm Garhwali
gcf Guadeloupean Creole
gil Gilbertese
gld Nanai
gl  Galician
glk Gilaki
goh Old High German
gom Konkani
gor Gorontalo
grc Ancient Greek
guc Wayuu
gur Frafra
gvr Gurung
hac Hawrami
hak Hakka
haw Hawaiian
haz Hazaragi
hif Fiji Hindi
hi  Hindi
hil Hiligaynon
hnd Hindko
hne Chhattisgarhi
ho  Hiri Motu
hr  Croatian
hsn Xiang
ht  Haitian Creole
hug Huachipaeri
hu  Hungarian
hus Wastek
hy  Armenian
hz  Herero
iar Purari
iba Iban
ibb Ibibio
id  Indonesian
ig  Igbo
ii  Sichuan Yi
ili Ili Turki
inh Ingush
is  Icelandic
iso Isoko
ist Istriot
itl Itelmen
izh Ingrian
ja  Japanese
jam Jamaican
jax Jambi Malay
jct Krymchak
jdt Judeo-Tat
jut Jutlandic
jv  Javanese
kab Kabyle
kac Jingpho
ka  Georgian
kbd Circassian
kbp Kabiye
kca Khanty
kck Kalanga
kdr Karaim
kea Cape Verdean Creole
ket Ket
kev Kanikkaran
kfr Kutchi
kfy Kumaoni
kge Komering
kgp Kaingang
kha Khasi
khw Khowar
kiu Kirmanjki
kjh Khakas
kj  Kuanyama
kk  Kazakh
klb Kiliwa
kl  Greenlandic
kls Kalash
kmr Kurmanji
kmz Khorasani Turkic
kn  Kannada
ko  Korean
kpy Koryak
kri Krio
krj Kinaray-a
kr  Kanuri
krl Karelian
ksf Bafia
ksh Colognian
ksw S'gaw Karen
ku  Kurdish
kum Kumyk
kvr Kerinci
kxk Zayein Karen
lad Judaeo-Spanish (Ladino)
lad Ladino
lag Rangi
la  Latin
lb  Luxembourgish
lbx Lawangan
lez Lezgian
lhu Lahu
lif Limbu
lij Ligurian
li  Limburgish
liv Livonian
ljp Lampung Api
lkt Lakota
lld Ladin
loz Lozi
lrc Luri
ltg Latgalian
lt  Lithuanian
luo Luo
lus Mizo
lv  Latvian
lzz Laz
mad Madurese
mai Maithili
mak Makassarese
mam Mam
max North Moluccan Malay
maz Mazahua
mdr Mandar
meu Motu
mfa Yawi
mfb Bangka
mfe Mauritian Creole
mf

Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
At this time, we made big progress by having a policy in place whereby
ISO-639-3 defined languages can gain eligibility from the WMF language
committee. Eligibility to allow the addition of labels in Wikidata without
any requirement for localisation as is per the policy for any other
project. At the same time we have a situation where it is technically
possible to have languages enabled for Wikidata only.

The plan is to ask to enable all eligible languages that have an Incubator
presence for Wikidata first. What needs doing is for someone to make a list
of the languages involved. Obviously, we want to see what impact it has.
Combined with the Reasonator, it has a great potential as it does provide
fall back languages that can be configured.

When new languages are requested, it will be ISO-639-3 only as per the
policy. Good arguments will need to be provided because we will not engage
in Wikidata as a "post stamp collection" of any and all languages/
 Consequently, the involvement of native speakers will be an important plus.

If this feels like me "throwing cold water" on the enthusiasm for many more
languages then do understand that Wikidata does not support Wiktionary yet.
When lexical values become possible it is soon enough to revisit things
again.
Thanks,
  GerardM


On 6 May 2014 20:55, P. Blissenbach  wrote:

> Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
>
> > Hoi,Purodha what you say about Ethnologue is very biases,
> > wrong and often hardly relevant.
>
> I am sorry if my contribution was biased. My main goal was to
> warn that there are more than 7000-odd languages, extending
> ISO 639-3 is time consuming, and that we have the BCP47 defining
> language variants in addition to ISO 639.
>
> > When you know your history,
> > Ethnologue was asked if they would bring in their expertise
> > and system in the ISO processes because the existing ISO-639-2
> > was extremely inadequate. When it was included, it became
> > part of an established process whereby experts from national
> > standard bodies decide on the further development. Effectively
> > the role of Ethnologue is one of administrator, not initiator.
>
> Thrue.
>
> > Saying that all the issues about languages is because to Ethnlogue
> > is completely false.
>
> I was not meaning to say that.
>
> > The notion if there are many more languages is
> > very much open to debate. There is no good answer.
>
> Sure, it depends. Also, I do not want to put blame on anyone.
> Naturally, whatever you collect, you start somewhere, it will take time,
> and at some point you have an incomplete, but growing list. That is how
> I see Ethnologue. I keep mailing them data knowing that they are going
> to need their time to verify and process it.
>
> Taking into account what we likely have to use as a definition for
> "language" is, whether or not labels, lexemes, or similar, are spelled
> pronunced, signalled, or syntactically/grammatically put together
> differently
> enough to warrant that we call them distinct from another "language".
> I am well aware that this is a foggy thing and there are many instances
> that can cause controversies.
>
> > When you are interested in looking beyond the ISO-639-3 consider
> > the ISO-639-6. It aims to include any and all language variants
> > and it is not that interested in using the political term what
> > language has become.
>
> I was considering to mention it in my post. I did not, mainly for bevity.
>
> Yet also, I doubt, it's in a useful state already. Last fall or late
> summer,
> it had almost twice as many entries as ISO 639-3, language coverage in my
> main field was as incomplete as ISO 639, it was not publicized in a well
> usable way (Website down since long. Before that, queryable in a
> complicated and inefficient manner for individual entries and small
> sets only. No listings available online. No details beyond language
> names. Good news: the web site is partly online again as of today.)
>
> Yes, I do consider ISO 639-6. I am happy about it's clearer and
> simpler approach to the subject matter, and I am looking forward to using
> it, as its coverage grows.
>
> Purodha
>
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-06 Thread James Forrester

On 4 May 2014 13:17, Daniel Kinzler  wrote:

> Am 04.05.2014 09:00, schrieb Lydia Pintscher:
> > On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Where are we with fallback languages?
> >
> > The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is
> > important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months.
>
> I would like to add some information about why language fallback is not as
> easily done as it may seem. Fallback for *display* is simple enough (as
> reasonator proves) - but we allow editing, which makes this much harder.
>
> Consider the case of a user with their language set to "en-gb", but seeing
> a
> label in "en" due to fallback. What should happen if they click "edit"?
> Which
> label will they be editing, the "en" one or the "en-gb" one? They should
> really
> be able to do both, and the consequences of their edit should be obvious to
> them. When automatic transliteration comes into play, as is the case with
> some
> chinese variants, things become more complex still.
>
> This is not impossible to solve (e.g. by showing edit boxes for all the
> relevant
> variants, with some additional information), but needs careful design. This
> cannot be done overnight.
>

BTW, this is a shared design need in VisualEditor for language variant
support (we should show one item/term because that's what users expect from
read mode, but then how do we show when the user is editing that term which
changes they've made have applied automatically to other variants and which
didn't, and why).

J.
-- 
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jdforres...@gmail.com
[[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] (speaking purely in a personal
capacity)
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-06 Thread P. Blissenbach

Gerard Meijssen  wrote:

> Hoi,Purodha what you say about Ethnologue is very biases,
> wrong and often hardly relevant.

I am sorry if my contribution was biased. My main goal was to
warn that there are more than 7000-odd languages, extending
ISO 639-3 is time consuming, and that we have the BCP47 defining
language variants in addition to ISO 639.

> When you know your history,
> Ethnologue was asked if they would bring in their expertise
> and system in the ISO processes because the existing ISO-639-2
> was extremely inadequate. When it was included, it became
> part of an established process whereby experts from national
> standard bodies decide on the further development. Effectively
> the role of Ethnologue is one of administrator, not initiator.

Thrue.

> Saying that all the issues about languages is because to Ethnlogue
> is completely false.

I was not meaning to say that.

> The notion if there are many more languages is
> very much open to debate. There is no good answer.

Sure, it depends. Also, I do not want to put blame on anyone.
Naturally, whatever you collect, you start somewhere, it will take time,
and at some point you have an incomplete, but growing list. That is how
I see Ethnologue. I keep mailing them data knowing that they are going
to need their time to verify and process it.

Taking into account what we likely have to use as a definition for
"language" is, whether or not labels, lexemes, or similar, are spelled
pronunced, signalled, or syntactically/grammatically put together differently
enough to warrant that we call them distinct from another "language".
I am well aware that this is a foggy thing and there are many instances
that can cause controversies. 

> When you are interested in looking beyond the ISO-639-3 consider
> the ISO-639-6. It aims to include any and all language variants
> and it is not that interested in using the political term what
> language has become.

I was considering to mention it in my post. I did not, mainly for bevity.

Yet also, I doubt, it's in a useful state already. Last fall or late summer,
it had almost twice as many entries as ISO 639-3, language coverage in my
main field was as incomplete as ISO 639, it was not publicized in a well
usable way (Website down since long. Before that, queryable in a 
complicated and inefficient manner for individual entries and small
sets only. No listings available online. No details beyond language
names. Good news: the web site is partly online again as of today.)

Yes, I do consider ISO 639-6. I am happy about it's clearer and
simpler approach to the subject matter, and I am looking forward to using
it, as its coverage grows.

Purodha

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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-06 Thread Scott MacLeod

Great, Purodha, GerardM and Wikidatans,

I've gathered together some "Language Code" standardization sources, all
potentially helpful for unfolding good design, here ...

Language Code

Ethnologue
(Ethnologue now uses ISO 639 codes)
http://www.ethnologue.com/browse/codes

ISO 639
(International Organization for Standardization)
http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/language_codes.htm

ISO-639-3
(International Organization for Standardization)
http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/codes.asp

ISO-639-6 (International Organization for Standardization)
(This aims to include any and all language variants and it is not that
interested in using the political term what language has become).
http://www.geolang.com/iso639-6/

Language Subtag Lookup
(A nice tool maintained by W3C corroborator Richard Ishida to look up
current IANA defined language tags, and their constituents (subtags)).
http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/ .

I've also added these initially to some CC wiki WUaS "Language" pages (see
below), which 7,106+ MIT OCW-centric wiki-school plans will allow for many
more language additions with time.

As one Wikidata focus, probably already explored, it seems to make sense to
engage the ISO 639 codes and standards, since ISO-639-3 and ISO-639-6 seem
to address some of both of your concerns.

Does anyone know how ISO-639-6, for example, allows for, or encodes,
invented, "dead," animal/species' communication (or even computer languages
as "human languages")?

Cheers,
Scott

On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 5:26 AM, P. Blissenbach  wrote:

> Gerard Meijssen  writes:
>
> > Hoi,
> > There are standards that define British English et al.
> > It makes part of the ISO codes. We do not have to invent
> > something like  "ISO 639-3eng".
>
> Indeed.
>
> There is a nice tool maintained by W3C corroborator Richard
> Ishida to look up current IANA defined language tags, and their
> constituents (subtags) at:
>
> http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/
>
> Greetings -- Purodha
>
> ___
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>

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- http://worlduniversity.wikia.com/wiki/Languages
- http://worlduniversity.wikia.com/wiki/LANGUAGE_TEMPLATE
- http://scottmacleod.com/interlingual/worlduniversityandschool.html
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-06 Thread P. Blissenbach

Gerard Meijssen  writes:

> Hoi,
> There are standards that define British English et al.
> It makes part of the ISO codes. We do not have to invent
> something like  "ISO 639-3eng".

Indeed.

There is a nice tool maintained by W3C corroborator Richard
Ishida to look up current IANA defined language tags, and their
constituents (subtags) at:

http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/

Greetings -- Purodha

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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
Purodha what you say about Ethnologue is very biases, wrong and often
hardly relevant. When you know your history, Ethnologue was asked if they
would bring in their expertise and system in the ISO processes because the
existing ISO-639-2 was extremely inadequate. When it was included, it
became part of an established process whereby experts from national
standard bodies decide on the further development. Effectively the role of
Ethnologue is one of administrator, not initiator.

Saying that all the issues about languages is because to Ethnlogue is
completely false.

The notion if there are many more languages is very much open to debate.
There is no good answer. When you are interested in looking beyond the
ISO-639-3 consider the ISO-639-6. It aims to include any and all language
variants and it is not that interested in using the political term what
language has become.
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 6 May 2014 14:02, P. Blissenbach  wrote:

> "Scott MacLeod"  writes:
>
> > Hi Joe, Magnus, Andrew, GerardM, Jane, Daniel and Wikidatans,
> > Since "Language fallback is not a luxury like it is for
> > British English, it is essential for all the smaller languages.
> > It is what prevents it from being editable / usable" (per GerardM),
> > and in terms of Reasonator, statements, and careful design (DanielK),
> > what are current Wikidata processes to plan eventually for all
> > 7,106 living languages (plus even dead and invented languages)
> > in the world per "Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Seventeenth
> edition"
> > (http://www.ethnologue.com/statistics/size), as people add them, and
> use,
> > for example, the ISO coding system (or similar) for this, to anticipate
> > not yet added languages, and especially for 'smaller' languages
> > that GerardM mentions?
>
> Just FYI, the ISO 639 and Ethnologue are grossly incomplete in their
> coverage of world languages. One must assume some 10 times to 100 times
> more natural languages are currently in use than listed.
>
> Some single additions have been made through the BCP47 and IANA, such as
> "en-GB-scouse" representing the Scouse dialect of British English, or
> "sl-rozaj-lipaw" — the Lipovaz dialect of Resian which is itself a
> variant of Slovenian spoken in Italy. In other fields, due differentiation
> is still lacking. For example, in the swiss Alps, almost ever village in
> ever vallley has its on language variety which are often mutually hardly
> comprehesible, but they all together have only one language code, "gsw",
> wich also covers a large part of Germanies South West and South Eastern
> France and their local language varieties. You can easily look up from
> a map that there are hundreds of cities, towns, villages, valleys, and
> even if only a thenth of them had a language of their own, "gsw" actually
> represts more than 1000 distinct languages. Considerig both spelling AND
> pronunciation, the deserve to be  differenciated.
>
> This is not meant do discourage you, or to say it was not manageable.
> You only need to be aware, that taking care of the few languages currently
> listed in ethnologue will not suffice, and coding them must be expected
> to be a bit more complex, than it appears at first sight.
>
> > In terms of British English (en-gb) and English (en) distinction,
> > why not just code English in Wikidata as "ISO 639-3eng" per
> >
> http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng[http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng]
> > as part of a careful design for all languages, and then build
> > out for smaller languages? (CC wiki WUaS is planning wiki schools
> > in all 7,106 languages, plus dead and invented languages).
>
> While the current 7106 is way too low, it does include some
> "Macrolanguages"
> (i.e. language groups) and many extinct and some invented languages.
>
> > It seems that using or keying in on the ISO system, or a similar
> > one, would allow for remarkable extensibility and careful design
> > of Wikidata, as well as fallback for other languages such as Hindi,
> > Odia or Malayalam.
>
> Yes indeed, only blindly following a body like SIL (editor of ISO 639-3
> and Etnologue, btw. a fundamental christian missionary organization) with
> their rather slow process of adding languages (taking years) might be
> limiting our capacities and speed. I suggest that we evaluate our own
> needs first, then determine how to meet them best, and then cooperate with
> others.
>
> Purodha
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
There are standards that define British English et al. It makes part of the
ISO codes. We do not have to invent something like  "ISO 639-3eng".
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 5 May 2014 20:39, Scott MacLeod wrote:

> Hi Joe, Magnus, Andrew, GerardM, Jane, Daniel and Wikidatans,
>
> Since "Language fallback is not a luxury like it is for British English,
> it is essential for all the smaller languages. It is what prevents it from
> being editable / usable" (per GerardM), and in terms of Reasonator,
> statements, and careful design (DanielK), what are current Wikidata
> processes to plan eventually for all 7,106 living languages (plus even dead
> and invented languages) in the world per "Ethnologue: Languages of the
> World, Seventeenth edition" (http://www.ethnologue.com/statistics/size),
> as people add them, and use, for example, the ISO coding system (or
> similar) for this, to anticipate not yet added languages, and especially
> for 'smaller' languages that GerardM mentions?
>
> In terms of British English (en-gb) and English (en) distinction, why not
> just code English in Wikidata as "ISO 639-3eng" per
> http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng as part of a careful design for
> all languages, and then build out for smaller languages? (CC wiki WUaS is
> planning wiki schools in all 7,106 languages, plus dead and invented
> languages).
>
> It seems that using or keying in on the ISO system, or a similar one,
> would allow for remarkable extensibility and careful design of Wikidata, as
> well as fallback for other languages such as Hindi, Odia or Malayalam.
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:11 AM, Gerard Meijssen  > wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> I am talking about statements.. I am not asking for selecting items that
>> have no label in a language.. This would only work if auto descriptions are
>> in use.
>> Thanks,
>>  GerardM
>>
>>
>> On 5 May 2014 12:52, Daniel Kinzler  wrote:
>>
>>> Am 05.05.2014 10:57, schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
>>> > Hoi,
>>> > When the "other languages" box needs to become more flexible, it is a
>>> different
>>> > problem that has nothing to do with the ability to understand what
>>> statements
>>> > are made. At this time it is an absolute inability when there is no
>>> label in
>>> > *YOUR* language.
>>>
>>> You are talking about picking an item as a link target when creating a
>>> statement
>>> when tehre is no label for the target item in your exact variant?
>>>
>>> Yes, we can and should implement fallback for that more swiftly. In
>>> fact, I was
>>> under the impression this was already in place... Lydia, do we have
>>> ticket for that?
>>>
>>> -- daniel
>>>
>>> PS: it's not an *absolute* inability: you can enter the ID directly. But
>>> that's
>>> not very nice, I know.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Daniel Kinzler
>>> Senior Software Developer
>>>
>>> Wikimedia Deutschland
>>> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> - Scott MacLeod - Founder & President
> - http://scottmacleod.com/interlingual/worlduniversityandschool.html
> - World University and School - like Wikipedia with MIT OpenCourseWare
> (not endorsed by MIT OCW) - incorporated as a nonprofit effective April
> 2010.
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-06 Thread P. Blissenbach

"Scott MacLeod"  writes:

> Hi Joe, Magnus, Andrew, GerardM, Jane, Daniel and Wikidatans, 
> Since "Language fallback is not a luxury like it is for
> British English, it is essential for all the smaller languages.
> It is what prevents it from being editable / usable" (per GerardM),
> and in terms of Reasonator, statements, and careful design (DanielK),
> what are current Wikidata processes to plan eventually for all
> 7,106 living languages (plus even dead and invented languages)
> in the world per "Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Seventeenth edition"
> (http://www.ethnologue.com/statistics/size), as people add them, and use,
> for example, the ISO coding system (or similar) for this, to anticipate
> not yet added languages, and especially for 'smaller' languages
> that GerardM mentions?

Just FYI, the ISO 639 and Ethnologue are grossly incomplete in their
coverage of world languages. One must assume some 10 times to 100 times
more natural languages are currently in use than listed.

Some single additions have been made through the BCP47 and IANA, such as
"en-GB-scouse" representing the Scouse dialect of British English, or
"sl-rozaj-lipaw" — the Lipovaz dialect of Resian which is itself a
variant of Slovenian spoken in Italy. In other fields, due differentiation
is still lacking. For example, in the swiss Alps, almost ever village in
ever vallley has its on language variety which are often mutually hardly
comprehesible, but they all together have only one language code, "gsw",
wich also covers a large part of Germanies South West and South Eastern
France and their local language varieties. You can easily look up from
a map that there are hundreds of cities, towns, villages, valleys, and
even if only a thenth of them had a language of their own, "gsw" actually
represts more than 1000 distinct languages. Considerig both spelling AND
pronunciation, the deserve to be  differenciated.

This is not meant do discourage you, or to say it was not manageable.
You only need to be aware, that taking care of the few languages currently
listed in ethnologue will not suffice, and coding them must be expected
to be a bit more complex, than it appears at first sight.

> In terms of British English (en-gb) and English (en) distinction,
> why not just code English in Wikidata as "ISO 639-3eng" per 
> http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng[http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng]
> as part of a careful design for all languages, and then build
> out for smaller languages? (CC wiki WUaS is planning wiki schools
> in all 7,106 languages, plus dead and invented languages).

While the current 7106 is way too low, it does include some "Macrolanguages"
(i.e. language groups) and many extinct and some invented languages.

> It seems that using or keying in on the ISO system, or a similar
> one, would allow for remarkable extensibility and careful design
> of Wikidata, as well as fallback for other languages such as Hindi,
> Odia or Malayalam. 

Yes indeed, only blindly following a body like SIL (editor of ISO 639-3
and Etnologue, btw. a fundamental christian missionary organization) with
their rather slow process of adding languages (taking years) might be
limiting our capacities and speed. I suggest that we evaluate our own
needs first, then determine how to meet them best, and then cooperate with
others.

Purodha

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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Scott MacLeod

Hi Joe, Magnus, Andrew, GerardM, Jane, Daniel and Wikidatans,

Since "Language fallback is not a luxury like it is for British English, it
is essential for all the smaller languages. It is what prevents it from
being editable / usable" (per GerardM), and in terms of Reasonator,
statements, and careful design (DanielK), what are current Wikidata
processes to plan eventually for all 7,106 living languages (plus even dead
and invented languages) in the world per "Ethnologue: Languages of the
World, Seventeenth edition" (http://www.ethnologue.com/statistics/size), as
people add them, and use, for example, the ISO coding system (or similar)
for this, to anticipate not yet added languages, and especially for
'smaller' languages that GerardM mentions?

In terms of British English (en-gb) and English (en) distinction, why not
just code English in Wikidata as "ISO 639-3eng" per
http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng as part of a careful design for all
languages, and then build out for smaller languages? (CC wiki WUaS is
planning wiki schools in all 7,106 languages, plus dead and invented
languages).

It seems that using or keying in on the ISO system, or a similar one, would
allow for remarkable extensibility and careful design of Wikidata, as well
as fallback for other languages such as Hindi, Odia or Malayalam.
Cheers,
Scott

On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:11 AM, Gerard Meijssen
wrote:

> Hoi,
> I am talking about statements.. I am not asking for selecting items that
> have no label in a language.. This would only work if auto descriptions are
> in use.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
>
> On 5 May 2014 12:52, Daniel Kinzler  wrote:
>
>> Am 05.05.2014 10:57, schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
>> > Hoi,
>> > When the "other languages" box needs to become more flexible, it is a
>> different
>> > problem that has nothing to do with the ability to understand what
>> statements
>> > are made. At this time it is an absolute inability when there is no
>> label in
>> > *YOUR* language.
>>
>> You are talking about picking an item as a link target when creating a
>> statement
>> when tehre is no label for the target item in your exact variant?
>>
>> Yes, we can and should implement fallback for that more swiftly. In fact,
>> I was
>> under the impression this was already in place... Lydia, do we have
>> ticket for that?
>>
>> -- daniel
>>
>> PS: it's not an *absolute* inability: you can enter the ID directly. But
>> that's
>> not very nice, I know.
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Kinzler
>> Senior Software Developer
>>
>> Wikimedia Deutschland
>> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
I am talking about statements.. I am not asking for selecting items that
have no label in a language.. This would only work if auto descriptions are
in use.
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 5 May 2014 12:52, Daniel Kinzler  wrote:

> Am 05.05.2014 10:57, schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
> > Hoi,
> > When the "other languages" box needs to become more flexible, it is a
> different
> > problem that has nothing to do with the ability to understand what
> statements
> > are made. At this time it is an absolute inability when there is no
> label in
> > *YOUR* language.
>
> You are talking about picking an item as a link target when creating a
> statement
> when tehre is no label for the target item in your exact variant?
>
> Yes, we can and should implement fallback for that more swiftly. In fact,
> I was
> under the impression this was already in place... Lydia, do we have ticket
> for that?
>
> -- daniel
>
> PS: it's not an *absolute* inability: you can enter the ID directly. But
> that's
> not very nice, I know.
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Senior Software Developer
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland
> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Daniel Kinzler

Am 05.05.2014 10:55, schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
> Daniel, what you suggest is overly complicated and the notion that "it" has to
> be perfect stands in the way of implementing a working solution. A solution 
> that
> is the difference between statements that are useful and statements that are
> absolutely useless in most languages.

I actually agree with you for statements. I was talking about the
label/description/alias "area". For items referenced in statements, we should
have fallback for display and item selection more swiftly. But still, it will
not be tomorrow.

-- daniel

-- 
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Daniel Kinzler

Am 05.05.2014 10:57, schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
> Hoi,
> When the "other languages" box needs to become more flexible, it is a 
> different
> problem that has nothing to do with the ability to understand what statements
> are made. At this time it is an absolute inability when there is no label in
> *YOUR* language.

You are talking about picking an item as a link target when creating a statement
when tehre is no label for the target item in your exact variant?

Yes, we can and should implement fallback for that more swiftly. In fact, I was
under the impression this was already in place... Lydia, do we have ticket for 
that?

-- daniel

PS: it's not an *absolute* inability: you can enter the ID directly. But that's
not very nice, I know.

-- 
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Senior Software Developer

Wikimedia Deutschland
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Jane Darnell

Lydia thanks! (because I couldn't understand what this thread was
complaining about)

What I would like to have short term is some sort of a gadget that I
can run periodically that will tell me when I personally have created
an item with a label that is the same for at least one other item in
one other language in the database (trying to repair my own doubles
here)
Jane

2014-05-05 12:15 GMT+02:00, Lydia Pintscher :
> On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Jane Darnell  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> What I don't understand is the need to keep all labels blank until
>> they are updated by hand. Especially for biographical articles, it
>> would be nice to have original spellings of the person's name, even if
>> it's Chinese or something else really far away from English. That
>> might serve as a prompt to people to update the label more than blank,
>> no? Take a look at this person:
>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q11287651
>
> That's exactly why we need language fallback, yes.
>
>> There are so many variants in spelling of the name, but I consider
>> them all correct, depending on the source. In the case of historical
>> people, can't a bot go through and update the labels so that queries
>> will return something? Anything is better than blank, I think.
>
> That's already happening. It just takes time.
>
>
> Cheers
> Lydia
>
> --
> Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
> Product Manager for Wikidata
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
> 10963 Berlin
> www.wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
>
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
> unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
> Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Lydia Pintscher

On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Jane Darnell  wrote:
> Hi all,
> What I don't understand is the need to keep all labels blank until
> they are updated by hand. Especially for biographical articles, it
> would be nice to have original spellings of the person's name, even if
> it's Chinese or something else really far away from English. That
> might serve as a prompt to people to update the label more than blank,
> no? Take a look at this person:
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q11287651

That's exactly why we need language fallback, yes.

> There are so many variants in spelling of the name, but I consider
> them all correct, depending on the source. In the case of historical
> people, can't a bot go through and update the labels so that queries
> will return something? Anything is better than blank, I think.

That's already happening. It just takes time.


Cheers
Lydia

-- 
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Product Manager for Wikidata

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
10963 Berlin
www.wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.

Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Jane Darnell

Hi all,
What I don't understand is the need to keep all labels blank until
they are updated by hand. Especially for biographical articles, it
would be nice to have original spellings of the person's name, even if
it's Chinese or something else really far away from English. That
might serve as a prompt to people to update the label more than blank,
no? Take a look at this person:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q11287651

There are so many variants in spelling of the name, but I consider
them all correct, depending on the source. In the case of historical
people, can't a bot go through and update the labels so that queries
will return something? Anything is better than blank, I think.
Jane

2014-05-05 10:57 GMT+02:00, Gerard Meijssen :
> Hoi,
> When the "other languages" box needs to become more flexible, it is a
> different problem that has nothing to do with the ability to understand
> what statements are made. At this time it is an absolute inability when
> there is no label in *YOUR* language.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
>
> On 5 May 2014 10:21, Daniel Kinzler  wrote:
>
>> Am 05.05.2014 01:35, schrieb Joe Filceolaire:
>> > I agree with Gerard that you only edit your language label in the
>> 'label' edit
>> > box. If the label box is showing the label in a fallback language then
>> it should
>> > be visually different - greyed out and italic for instance or like the
>> 'edit
>> > label in English' text. If a user wants to edit other language labels
>> then that
>> > is what the 'in other languages' boxes are for.
>>
>> That's probably a good approach, but would need the "other languages" box
>> to
>> become more flexible, and include aliases. It's also strange to have it
>> visually
>> separate from the thing you actually want to change. Not easy to get this
>> right.
>>
>> -- daniel
>>
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Kinzler
>> Senior Software Developer
>>
>> Wikimedia Deutschland
>> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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>

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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
When the "other languages" box needs to become more flexible, it is a
different problem that has nothing to do with the ability to understand
what statements are made. At this time it is an absolute inability when
there is no label in *YOUR* language.
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 5 May 2014 10:21, Daniel Kinzler  wrote:

> Am 05.05.2014 01:35, schrieb Joe Filceolaire:
> > I agree with Gerard that you only edit your language label in the
> 'label' edit
> > box. If the label box is showing the label in a fallback language then
> it should
> > be visually different - greyed out and italic for instance or like the
> 'edit
> > label in English' text. If a user wants to edit other language labels
> then that
> > is what the 'in other languages' boxes are for.
>
> That's probably a good approach, but would need the "other languages" box
> to
> become more flexible, and include aliases. It's also strange to have it
> visually
> separate from the thing you actually want to change. Not easy to get this
> right.
>
> -- daniel
>
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Senior Software Developer
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland
> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
When you want to do the stuff you are talking about, you do it in Wikidata
in the area where all the aliases, descriptions and stuff is. That is for
that specific item. When you see fall backs in the statement area of an
item, it is a SERVICE that you can add missing labels. When they are wrong,
you can edit them. You do this on the item itself.

Daniel, what you suggest is overly complicated and the notion that "it" has
to be perfect stands in the way of implementing a working solution. A
solution that is the difference between statements that are useful and
statements that are absolutely useless in most languages.
Thanks,
   GerardM


On 5 May 2014 10:19, Daniel Kinzler  wrote:

> Am 04.05.2014 22:50, schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
> > Hoi,
> > When you see a label in Reasonator, you will find that when it is not in
> *YOUR*
> > language, it is underlined in red. You can hover over a label and you
> will be
> > prompted to add a label in the named language.
>
> Nice. Label and Description should go together though.
>
> > ONLY your language.
>
> So you see a typo, want to edit it, get en empty edit box (what? why?),
> enter
> the correct spelling, save it, and see it for your variant - but you
> didn't fix
> the actual mistake. You provided a new label in a different variant.
> Confusing.
> We need a better solution.
>
> The "wiki expectation" is that you can edit what you see. On top of that,
> we
> want people to provide variant labels. These two things need to be
> combined nicely.
>
> > Wikidata
> > being Wikidata can provide the option as it already does to see multiple
> labels
> > for the languages as selected in the #Babel template. That is the
> obvious place
> > to see and edit labels in multiple languages.
>
> Except that doesn't work for Aliases. And generally, people doe *not* set
> variants in their babel boxes ("yea, I speak us english, british english,
> canadian english and australian english"...).
>
> Yes, this obviously needs to be integrated. How, exactly?
>
> > When you think that language fallback in Reasonator is "easy", it is
> very much
> > because the options have been considered properly. It does provide fall
> back in
> > a user specified manner. It does show all the labels used for an item
> but it
> > does NOT provide an option to edit them. It could, but this is left for
> Wikidata
> > itself just like adding statements has been left to Wikidata.
>
> Yea, leave the complicated part to us, but don't complain that it takes
> time :)
>
> > There are three parts to an item in Wikidata. Labels, statements and
> links. It
> > is best imho not to complicate things and leave this partition in place.
>
> By "links" you mean sitelinks? How about referenced items? Fallback needs
> to
> apply there too. And you forget aliases. Labels, descriptions and aliases
> kind
> of go together. They are editable, and should be integrated with Babel
> stuff.
> Labels of referenced sitelinks should have fallback applied, but are not
> editable. Sitelinks are unrelated.
>
> As I said: it needs careful design.
>
> -- daniel
>
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Senior Software Developer
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland
> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Daniel Kinzler

Am 05.05.2014 10:41, schrieb P. Blissenbach:
> There are two things which are not directly related to variants but imho 
> could be
> fixed in one go with them:
> - Entries are using up much too much valuable space. I wish to delete all 
> whitespace,
> and use a more list orientated approach. At least as an option.
> - it is really frustrating that I cannot enter many labels which I know since 
> Wikidata
> (for no apparent reason) does not allow labels to be added for a whole lot of 
> languages,
> and that my babel list has to be incomplete because #babel does not offer 
> many languages.

It should be relatively easy to write a gadget that allows this. Could even be a
single text box, with one language per line - a terse power user interface.

The whitespace thing could easily be done as a gadget as well. Is there a gadget
kitchen on wikidata.org yet?

-- daniel


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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread P. Blissenbach

"Daniel Kinzler"  writes:
>
> Am 05.05.2014 01:35, schrieb Joe Filceolaire:
> > I agree with Gerard that you only edit your language label in the 'label' 
> > edit
> > box. If the label box is showing the label in a fallback language then it 
> > should
> > be visually different - greyed out and italic for instance or like the 'edit
> > label in English' text. If a user wants to edit other language labels then 
> > that
> > is what the 'in other languages' boxes are for.  
> 
> That's probably a good approach, but would need the "other languages" box to
> become more flexible, and include aliases. It's also strange to have it 
> visually
> separate from the thing you actually want to change. Not easy to get this 
> right.

Since my "other languages" box is using some more than 5 maximal screen heights,
having it slightly separated does not disturb me. Not any more, at least.

There are two things which are not directly related to variants but imho could 
be
fixed in one go with them:
- Entries are using up much too much valuable space. I wish to delete all 
whitespace,
and use a more list orientated approach. At least as an option.
- it is really frustrating that I cannot enter many labels which I know since 
Wikidata
(for no apparent reason) does not allow labels to be added for a whole lot of 
languages,
and that my babel list has to be incomplete because #babel does not offer many 
languages.

Purodha

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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Daniel Kinzler

Am 05.05.2014 01:35, schrieb Joe Filceolaire:
> I agree with Gerard that you only edit your language label in the 'label' edit
> box. If the label box is showing the label in a fallback language then it 
> should
> be visually different - greyed out and italic for instance or like the 'edit
> label in English' text. If a user wants to edit other language labels then 
> that
> is what the 'in other languages' boxes are for.  

That's probably a good approach, but would need the "other languages" box to
become more flexible, and include aliases. It's also strange to have it visually
separate from the thing you actually want to change. Not easy to get this right.

-- daniel


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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-05 Thread Daniel Kinzler

Am 04.05.2014 22:50, schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
> Hoi,
> When you see a label in Reasonator, you will find that when it is not in 
> *YOUR*
> language, it is underlined in red. You can hover over a label and you will be
> prompted to add a label in the named language.

Nice. Label and Description should go together though.

> ONLY your language. 

So you see a typo, want to edit it, get en empty edit box (what? why?), enter
the correct spelling, save it, and see it for your variant - but you didn't fix
the actual mistake. You provided a new label in a different variant. Confusing.
We need a better solution.

The "wiki expectation" is that you can edit what you see. On top of that, we
want people to provide variant labels. These two things need to be combined 
nicely.

> Wikidata
> being Wikidata can provide the option as it already does to see multiple 
> labels
> for the languages as selected in the #Babel template. That is the obvious 
> place
> to see and edit labels in multiple languages.

Except that doesn't work for Aliases. And generally, people doe *not* set
variants in their babel boxes ("yea, I speak us english, british english,
canadian english and australian english"...).

Yes, this obviously needs to be integrated. How, exactly?

> When you think that language fallback in Reasonator is "easy", it is very much
> because the options have been considered properly. It does provide fall back 
> in
> a user specified manner. It does show all the labels used for an item but it
> does NOT provide an option to edit them. It could, but this is left for 
> Wikidata
> itself just like adding statements has been left to Wikidata.

Yea, leave the complicated part to us, but don't complain that it takes time :)

> There are three parts to an item in Wikidata. Labels, statements and links. It
> is best imho not to complicate things and leave this partition in place.

By "links" you mean sitelinks? How about referenced items? Fallback needs to
apply there too. And you forget aliases. Labels, descriptions and aliases kind
of go together. They are editable, and should be integrated with Babel stuff.
Labels of referenced sitelinks should have fallback applied, but are not
editable. Sitelinks are unrelated.

As I said: it needs careful design.

-- daniel


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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-04 Thread Joe Filceolaire

I agree with Gerard that you only edit your language label in the 'label'
edit box. If the label box is showing the label in a fallback language then
it should be visually different - greyed out and italic for instance or
like the 'edit label in English' text. If a user wants to edit other
language labels then that is what the 'in other languages' boxes are for.

If a fall back language is shown anywhere else then do something similar
and add an 'edit in your language' link.

At least that is what I think.

Joe


On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 10:09 PM, Sjoerd de Bruin wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> It's quite annoying every time I want to use a item, but it has no Dutch
> label. So it doesn't show up if you want to use it with like adding
> statements. Fallback is a big thing.
>
> Greetings, Sjoerd
>
> Op 4 mei 2014 om 22:50 heeft Gerard Meijssen 
> het volgende geschreven:
>
> Hoi,
> When you see a label in Reasonator, you will find that when it is not in
> *YOUR* language, it is underlined in red. You can hover over a label and
> you will be prompted to add a label in the named language. ONLY your
> language. Wikidata being Wikidata can provide the option as it already does
> to see multiple labels for the languages as selected in the #Babel
> template. That is the obvious place to see and edit labels in multiple
> languages.
>
> When you think that language fallback in Reasonator is "easy", it is very
> much because the options have been considered properly. It does provide
> fall back in a user specified manner. It does show all the labels used for
> an item but it does NOT provide an option to edit them. It could, but this
> is left for Wikidata itself just like adding statements has been left to
> Wikidata.
>
> There are three parts to an item in Wikidata. Labels, statements and
> links. It is best imho not to complicate things and leave this partition in
> place.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
>
> On 4 May 2014 22:17, Daniel Kinzler  wrote:
>
>> Am 04.05.2014 09:00, schrieb Lydia Pintscher:
>> > On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Where are we with fallback languages?
>> >>
>> >> I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of
>> the questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of
>> the labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there
>> was no fallback to international English.
>> >
>> > The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is
>> > important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months.
>>
>> I would like to add some information about why language fallback is not as
>> easily done as it may seem. Fallback for *display* is simple enough (as
>> reasonator proves) - but we allow editing, which makes this much harder.
>>
>> Consider the case of a user with their language set to "en-gb", but
>> seeing a
>> label in "en" due to fallback. What should happen if they click "edit"?
>> Which
>> label will they be editing, the "en" one or the "en-gb" one? They should
>> really
>> be able to do both, and the consequences of their edit should be obvious
>> to
>> them. When automatic transliteration comes into play, as is the case with
>> some
>> chinese variants, things become more complex still.
>>
>> This is not impossible to solve (e.g. by showing edit boxes for all the
>> relevant
>> variants, with some additional information), but needs careful design.
>> This
>> cannot be done overnight.
>>
>> -- daniel
>>
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Kinzler
>> Senior Software Developer
>>
>> Wikimedia Deutschland
>> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-04 Thread Sjoerd de Bruin

Hey everyone,

It's quite annoying every time I want to use a item, but it has no Dutch label. 
So it doesn't show up if you want to use it with like adding statements. 
Fallback is a big thing.

Greetings, Sjoerd

> Op 4 mei 2014 om 22:50 heeft Gerard Meijssen  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Hoi,
> When you see a label in Reasonator, you will find that when it is not in 
> *YOUR* language, it is underlined in red. You can hover over a label and you 
> will be prompted to add a label in the named language. ONLY your language. 
> Wikidata being Wikidata can provide the option as it already does to see 
> multiple labels for the languages as selected in the #Babel template. That is 
> the obvious place to see and edit labels in multiple languages.
> 
> When you think that language fallback in Reasonator is "easy", it is very 
> much because the options have been considered properly. It does provide fall 
> back in a user specified manner. It does show all the labels used for an item 
> but it does NOT provide an option to edit them. It could, but this is left 
> for Wikidata itself just like adding statements has been left to Wikidata.
> 
> There are three parts to an item in Wikidata. Labels, statements and links. 
> It is best imho not to complicate things and leave this partition in place.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
> 
> 
>> On 4 May 2014 22:17, Daniel Kinzler  wrote:
>> Am 04.05.2014 09:00, schrieb Lydia Pintscher:
>> > On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire  
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Where are we with fallback languages?
>> >>
>> >> I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the 
>> >> questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of 
>> >> the labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why 
>> >> there was no fallback to international English.
>> >
>> > The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is
>> > important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months.
>> 
>> I would like to add some information about why language fallback is not as
>> easily done as it may seem. Fallback for *display* is simple enough (as
>> reasonator proves) - but we allow editing, which makes this much harder.
>> 
>> Consider the case of a user with their language set to "en-gb", but seeing a
>> label in "en" due to fallback. What should happen if they click "edit"? Which
>> label will they be editing, the "en" one or the "en-gb" one? They should 
>> really
>> be able to do both, and the consequences of their edit should be obvious to
>> them. When automatic transliteration comes into play, as is the case with 
>> some
>> chinese variants, things become more complex still.
>> 
>> This is not impossible to solve (e.g. by showing edit boxes for all the 
>> relevant
>> variants, with some additional information), but needs careful design. This
>> cannot be done overnight.
>> 
>> -- daniel
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Daniel Kinzler
>> Senior Software Developer
>> 
>> Wikimedia Deutschland
>> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>> 
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-04 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
When you see a label in Reasonator, you will find that when it is not in
*YOUR* language, it is underlined in red. You can hover over a label and
you will be prompted to add a label in the named language. ONLY your
language. Wikidata being Wikidata can provide the option as it already does
to see multiple labels for the languages as selected in the #Babel
template. That is the obvious place to see and edit labels in multiple
languages.

When you think that language fallback in Reasonator is "easy", it is very
much because the options have been considered properly. It does provide
fall back in a user specified manner. It does show all the labels used for
an item but it does NOT provide an option to edit them. It could, but this
is left for Wikidata itself just like adding statements has been left to
Wikidata.

There are three parts to an item in Wikidata. Labels, statements and links.
It is best imho not to complicate things and leave this partition in place.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 4 May 2014 22:17, Daniel Kinzler  wrote:

> Am 04.05.2014 09:00, schrieb Lydia Pintscher:
> > On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Where are we with fallback languages?
> >>
> >> I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the
> questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the
> labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was
> no fallback to international English.
> >
> > The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is
> > important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months.
>
> I would like to add some information about why language fallback is not as
> easily done as it may seem. Fallback for *display* is simple enough (as
> reasonator proves) - but we allow editing, which makes this much harder.
>
> Consider the case of a user with their language set to "en-gb", but seeing
> a
> label in "en" due to fallback. What should happen if they click "edit"?
> Which
> label will they be editing, the "en" one or the "en-gb" one? They should
> really
> be able to do both, and the consequences of their edit should be obvious to
> them. When automatic transliteration comes into play, as is the case with
> some
> chinese variants, things become more complex still.
>
> This is not impossible to solve (e.g. by showing edit boxes for all the
> relevant
> variants, with some additional information), but needs careful design. This
> cannot be done overnight.
>
> -- daniel
>
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Senior Software Developer
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland
> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-04 Thread Daniel Kinzler

Am 04.05.2014 09:00, schrieb Lydia Pintscher:
> On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire  wrote:
>>
>> Where are we with fallback languages?
>>
>> I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the 
>> questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the 
>> labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was 
>> no fallback to international English.
> 
> The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is
> important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months. 

I would like to add some information about why language fallback is not as
easily done as it may seem. Fallback for *display* is simple enough (as
reasonator proves) - but we allow editing, which makes this much harder.

Consider the case of a user with their language set to "en-gb", but seeing a
label in "en" due to fallback. What should happen if they click "edit"? Which
label will they be editing, the "en" one or the "en-gb" one? They should really
be able to do both, and the consequences of their edit should be obvious to
them. When automatic transliteration comes into play, as is the case with some
chinese variants, things become more complex still.

This is not impossible to solve (e.g. by showing edit boxes for all the relevant
variants, with some additional information), but needs careful design. This
cannot be done overnight.

-- daniel

-- 
Daniel Kinzler
Senior Software Developer

Wikimedia Deutschland
Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.

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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-04 Thread Andrew Gray

Thankyou! I wish I'd figured out where to ask last spring :-)

Andrew.

On 4 May 2014 08:14, Federico Leva (Nemo)  wrote:
> Lydia Pintscher, 04/05/2014 09:03:
>
>>> >If fallback languages aren't going to be available soon, then we
>>> >really need to think - at the very least - about disabling this
>>> >message.
>>
>> Yes I think that makes sense. Does anyone know details about that? As
>> in: how to turn it off?
>
>
> Very easy.
> 
>
> Nemo
>
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-04 Thread Lydia Pintscher

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo)  wrote:
> Very easy.
> 

Thank you! Much appreciated.

-- 
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Product Manager for Wikidata

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-04 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)


Lydia Pintscher, 04/05/2014 09:03:

>If fallback languages aren't going to be available soon, then we
>really need to think - at the very least - about disabling this
>message.

Yes I think that makes sense. Does anyone know details about that? As
in: how to turn it off?


Very easy.


Nemo

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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-04 Thread Gerard Meijssen

Hoi,
The question is much bigger than British English. If you language is Hindi,
Odia or Malayalam you will find that many labels are just not available.
The one reason why Reasonator is so important is that it does provide
language fall back.

Language fallback is not a luxury like it is for British English, it is
essential for all the smaller languages. It is what prevents it from being
editable / usable.
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 4 May 2014 09:00, Lydia Pintscher  wrote:

> On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire 
> wrote:
> >
> > Where are we with fallback languages?
> >
> > I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the
> questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the
> labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was
> no fallback to international English.
>
> The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is
> important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months. There is
> simply too much to do (queries, statements on properties, UI redesign,
> quantities with units, entity suggester, starting with Commons). If
> anyone is able and willing to take this on please send me an email.
> As for disabling en-gb for now: Daniel, Katie: What do you say?
>
>
> Cheers
> Lydia
>
> --
> Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
> Product Manager for Wikidata
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
> 10963 Berlin
> www.wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
>
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
> unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
> Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-04 Thread Lydia Pintscher

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:40 AM, Andrew Gray  wrote:
> It's the same in 2014. If you visit the site from the UK while not
> logged in, you get encouraged to "View Wikidata in British English"
> through the internationalisation header, despite the fact that this
> will make it less usable, less comprehensible, and generally less
> informative. There's no indication that this will screw things up, and
> no obvious way for an inexpert user to figure out how to fix it (by
> switching back to en-default)
>
> If fallback languages aren't going to be available soon, then we
> really need to think - at the very least - about disabling this
> message.

Yes I think that makes sense. Does anyone know details about that? As
in: how to turn it off?


Cheers
Lydia

-- 
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
Product Manager for Wikidata

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
10963 Berlin
www.wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.

Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-04 Thread Lydia Pintscher

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire  wrote:
>
> Where are we with fallback languages?
>
> I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the 
> questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the 
> labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was 
> no fallback to international English.

The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is
important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months. There is
simply too much to do (queries, statements on properties, UI redesign,
quantities with units, entity suggester, starting with Commons). If
anyone is able and willing to take this on please send me an email.
As for disabling en-gb for now: Daniel, Katie: What do you say?

Cheers
Lydia

-- 
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
Product Manager for Wikidata

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
10963 Berlin
www.wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.

Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-03 Thread Andrew Gray

British English is a real issue. Personally, I think it's a bit silly
to have it as a language option (Wikipedia has managed for ten years
with an en-common approach!), but I can understand why people want to
have it for the >0.5% of cases where en-gb might differ from en-us.

However...  the current existence of a British English
"internationalisation" actually breaks things for people who, in all
good faith, select it. My comments from this time last year:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Labels_and_descriptions_in_language_variants#British_English

It's the same in 2014. If you visit the site from the UK while not
logged in, you get encouraged to "View Wikidata in British English"
through the internationalisation header, despite the fact that this
will make it less usable, less comprehensible, and generally less
informative. There's no indication that this will screw things up, and
no obvious way for an inexpert user to figure out how to fix it (by
switching back to en-default)

If fallback languages aren't going to be available soon, then we
really need to think - at the very least - about disabling this
message.

Andrew.

On 4 May 2014 00:28, Joe Filceolaire  wrote:
> Where are we with fallback languages?
>
> I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the
> questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the
> labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was
> no fallback to international English.
>
> Joe
>
>
> On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Jeroen De Dauw 
> wrote:
>>
>> Hey,
>>
>> > Anything to add? Please share! :)
>>
>> You forgot the part where we made big improvements to the DataModel
>> component :)
>>
>> I wrote a blog post about some of that
>> http://www.bn2vs.com/blog/2014/04/30/wikibase-datamodel-entity-v2/
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> --
>> Jeroen De Dauw - http://www.bn2vs.com
>> Software craftsmanship advocate
>> Evil software architect at Wikimedia Germany
>> ~=[,,_,,]:3
>>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-03 Thread Joe Filceolaire

Where are we with fallback languages?

I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the
questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the
labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was
no fallback to international English.

Joe

On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Jeroen De Dauw wrote:

> Hey,
>
> > Anything to add? Please share! :)
>
> You forgot the part where we made big improvements to the DataModel
> component :)
>
> I wrote a blog post about some of that
> http://www.bn2vs.com/blog/2014/04/30/wikibase-datamodel-entity-v2/
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> Jeroen De Dauw - http://www.bn2vs.com
> Software craftsmanship advocate
> Evil software architect at Wikimedia Germany
> ~=[,,_,,]:3
>
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Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108

2014-05-03 Thread Jeroen De Dauw

Hey,

> Anything to add? Please share! :)

You forgot the part where we made big improvements to the DataModel
component :)

I wrote a blog post about some of that
http://www.bn2vs.com/blog/2014/04/30/wikibase-datamodel-entity-v2/

Cheers

--
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Software craftsmanship advocate
Evil software architect at Wikimedia Germany
~=[,,_,,]:3
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