Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Linksys defaults upnp to on.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP


Default for everything I'm aware of is off.  Unless someone has a
different experience?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373



On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Blair Davis  wrote:
> we do.
>
> RickG wrote:
>
> So, do you turn off UPnP or not?
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Greg Ihnen  wrote:
>
>
> I've heard (I think it was on a Security Now podcast) that UPnP opens up 
> big
> security hole for the end user (your customers) because there are trojans
> that use UPnP to poke a hole in the router and then it phones home with 
> the
> IP address and port it opened. If that compromised machine starts running
> amok on your network then it would be a problem for you.
>
> Greg
>
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>
>
>
> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
> that it's a big security hole.
>
> Thoughts on that?
> marlon
>
> - Original Message -----
> From: "Josh Luthman" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>
> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>
> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
> (I think it's called open?).
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  
> wrote:
>
>
> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
> servers.
> >From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and 
> >Play
> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
> device?
> Or should I just issue public IP’s to the customer that games and let them
> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
> do
> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
> that
> not work because of the double-NAT?
>
>
>
> Kurt Fankhauser
> WAVELINC
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> 419-562-6405
> www.wavelinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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> 
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> ---

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Marlon K. Schafer]

We give public ip's to all customers.  But in their router we turn off upnp 
if I'm the guy that sets up the router for them.

shrug,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Adam Kennedy" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP


>I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do 
>my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and 
>web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port from 
>1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone else.
>
> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you 
> are doing NAT.
>
> --
> Adam Kennedy
> Network Engineer
> Omnicity, Inc.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
> Man that sucks.  We turn off upnp on ALL routers.  I've always been told
> that it's a big security hole.
>
> Thoughts on that?
> marlon
>
> - Original Message -----
> From: "Josh Luthman" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>
> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>
> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp.  Even
> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
> (I think it's called open?).
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  
> wrote:
>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>> servers.
>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and 
>> Play
>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>> device?
>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let 
>> them
>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>> do
>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>> that
>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>
>>
>>
>> Kurt Fankhauser
>> WAVELINC
>> P.O. Box 126
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>> 419-562-6405
>> www.wavelinc.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[RickG]

When I worked for AT&T Wireless we purchased everything from DS3's to
DS1's from Time Warner Telecom.

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Fred Goldstein  wrote:
> At 8/4/2010 08:06 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>>   Time Warner Telecom and Time Warner Cable are entirely different
>>companies.  No present relationship whatsoever.
>
> Even worse than that.  tw Telecom (small "tw"), Time Warner Cable,
> and Time Warner Inc. (CNN-Turner, Time magazine, etc.) are *three*
> different companies, now that TWC has been spun off.  I wonder if
> they'll be required to change their name at some point, as tw Telecom
> was.  Of course since tw Telecom got the "tw", the cable folks will
> have to go farther afield.  (I rather like their old "Sterling Cable"
> brand, but they probably don't.)
>
> The "ITT" name is shared by various former subsidiaries of a
> now-split conglomerate.  (I think the residuary is Starwood Hotels,
> not one of the "ITT"-branded companies.)  "AT&T Wireless" was spun
> out of AT&T Corp. at one point, though with a bit of irony both were
> later acquired by Southwestern Bell, which took the ATT brand for
> itself.  I refer to them (now "AT&T Inc.") as "faux AT&T".  This
> could make deciphering deals with "AT&T" very confusing.
>
>
>>-
>>Mike Hammett
>>Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>>On 8/4/2010 1:23 AM, John Thomas wrote:
>> > Yes, I have heard of them. Time Warner (TW Telecom) is my
>> upstream. We aren't paying for IP addresses, but we only have a /27
>> of addresses with them.
>> >
>
>  --
>  Fred Goldstein    k1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
>  ionary Consulting              http://www.ionary.com/
>  +1 617 795 2701
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Blake Covarrubias]

Currently only getting v6 transit through one of my upstreams, Internet 
Operating Services of Arizona. They peer with 7 other upstreams for native v6 
transit. I still need to turn up IPv6 peering sessions with my other transits.

No major issues internally. Still feel like I'm in uncharted territory with 
providing access to customers.

--
Blake Covarrubias


On Aug 4, 2010, at 8:05 PM, Robert West wrote:

> Who is your upstream provider?  Any issues with them passing the V6?
> 
> Been thinking of making that jump but it seems to be a bastard scheme.  Gets
> no respect.  Any major issues?
> 
> Bob-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 3:24 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
> 
> We've been using v6 internally for about a year.
> 
> We've recently begun providing v6 to select customers; usually the ones with
> /26 or more of v4 address space. At that size they're usually technically
> competent, and thus ready to start migrating.
> 
> --
> Blake Covarrubias
> 
> On Aug 3, 2010, at 6:04 AM, Robert West wrote:
> 
>> How long have been using the v6?  
>> 
>> Bob-
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
>> On Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:55 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>> 
>> I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.
>> 
>> We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All 
>> customers get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for a 
>> consistent public IP.
>> 
>> NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.
>> 
>> --
>> Blake Covarrubias
>> 
>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
>> 
>>> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let
> go.
>>>> Or not.
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
>>>> On Behalf Of John Thomas
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>> 
>>>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I 
>>>> would find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>>> 
>>>> John
>>>> 
>>>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" 
>>>>> according to
>> the
>>>> 
>>>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month
>> *grins*
>>>>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that 
>>>>> static to
>>>> the
>>>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy
>> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would 
>>>>>>> let me
>>>> do
>>>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, 
>>>>>>> telnet
>>>> and
>>>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be 

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Robert West]

True.  And if you go with fiber, the IP's are free and are usually via the
Telecom.  If Time Warner Proper, 15 bucks.

Bob-



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 8:06 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

  Time Warner Telecom and Time Warner Cable are entirely different
companies.  No present relationship whatsoever.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



On 8/4/2010 1:23 AM, John Thomas wrote:
> Yes, I have heard of them. Time Warner (TW Telecom) is my upstream. We
aren't paying for IP addresses, but we only have a /27 of addresses with
them.
>
>
>
> Robert West  wrote:
>
>> ATT and Time Warner.  You may have heard of them.  :)
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
>> On Behalf Of John Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:28 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>> Robert, what upstream is charging $15 per month? If that is true, I 
>> have a portable /19 I am going to start renting..
>>
>> John
>>
>> Robert West  wrote:
>>
>>> Depends on if you have to pay for it.  Some upstreamproviders give 
>>> them for free, others not.  Some WISPS pay for their own block.  
>>> Either way, as with everything in  business, if I have to pay 15 
>>> bucks for a static you better believe that cost is gonna be passed 
>>> on.  That's a HUGE percentage of the cost of providing service to that
customer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
>>> On Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:55 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.
>>>
>>> We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All 
>>> customers get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for 
>>> a consistent public IP.
>>>
>>> NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Blake Covarrubias
>>>
>>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
>>>
>>>> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather 
>>>>> let
>> go.
>>>>> Or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org 
>>>>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>>>> On Behalf Of John Thomas
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>
>>>>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, 
>>>>> I would find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a
month.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal"
>>>>>> according to the
>>>>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month
>>>>>> *grins* and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign 
>>>>>> that static to
>>>>> the
>>>>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman"
>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List"
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>>>> Offi

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Robert West]

Who is your upstream provider?  Any issues with them passing the V6?

Been thinking of making that jump but it seems to be a bastard scheme.  Gets
no respect.  Any major issues?

Bob-





-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 3:24 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

We've been using v6 internally for about a year.

We've recently begun providing v6 to select customers; usually the ones with
/26 or more of v4 address space. At that size they're usually technically
competent, and thus ready to start migrating.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Aug 3, 2010, at 6:04 AM, Robert West wrote:

> How long have been using the v6?  
> 
> Bob-
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
> On Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:55 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
> 
> I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.
> 
> We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All 
> customers get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for a 
> consistent public IP.
> 
> NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.
> 
> --
> Blake Covarrubias
> 
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
> 
>> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>> 
>>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let
go.
>>> Or not.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
>>> On Behalf Of John Thomas
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>> 
>>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I 
>>> would find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" 
>>>> according to
> the
>>> 
>>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month
> *grins*
>>>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that 
>>>> static to
>>> the
>>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>> 
>>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy
> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would 
>>>>>> let me
>>> do
>>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, 
>>>>>> telnet
>>> and
>>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every 
>>>>>> port from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access 
>>>>>> to anyone else.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP 
>>>>>> if
> you
>>>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>>>> Network Engineer
>>>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org 
>>>>>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>>>> To: WISPA General

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Faisal Imtiaz]

ah you might want to double check that... AT&T has introduced some 
very aggressive 12 month promotional pricing recently..

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet&  Telecom

On 8/4/2010 2:06 PM, Adam Kennedy wrote:
> AT&T around here charges $75/mo for DSL with static IPs. Keep in mind that is 
> their basic static IP service for this area.
>
> --
> Adam Kennedy
> Network Engineer
> Omnicity, Inc.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jeremie Chism
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:29 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
> I see 15/month for static public all the time here. I guess it depends
> on your market. But I also have comcast doing 50/5 here to.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 6:27 PM, John Thomas  wrote:
>
>
>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would 
>> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>
>> John
>>
>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
>>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to the
>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>
>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Josh Luthman"
>>> To: "WISPA General List"
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy
>>>> wrote:
>>>>  
>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do
>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and
>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>>> else.
>>>>>
>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>>> Network Engineer
>>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>
>>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>>> marlon
>>>>>
>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman"
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List"
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>>>
>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser
>>>>> wrote:
>

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Adam Kennedy]

AT&T around here charges $75/mo for DSL with static IPs. Keep in mind that is 
their basic static IP service for this area.

--
Adam Kennedy
Network Engineer
Omnicity, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Jeremie Chism
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:29 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

I see 15/month for static public all the time here. I guess it depends
on your market. But I also have comcast doing 50/5 here to.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 2, 2010, at 6:27 PM, John Thomas  wrote:

> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would 
> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>
> John
>
> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>
>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to the
>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>
>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>>
>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>> wrote:
>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do
>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and
>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>> else.
>>>>
>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>> Network Engineer
>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>> marlon
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>
>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to
>>>>> you
>>>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about
>>>>> being
>>>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>>>> servers.
>>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and
>>>>> Play
>>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>&

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Fred Goldstein]

At 8/4/2010 08:06 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>   Time Warner Telecom and Time Warner Cable are entirely different
>companies.  No present relationship whatsoever.

Even worse than that.  tw Telecom (small "tw"), Time Warner Cable, 
and Time Warner Inc. (CNN-Turner, Time magazine, etc.) are *three* 
different companies, now that TWC has been spun off.  I wonder if 
they'll be required to change their name at some point, as tw Telecom 
was.  Of course since tw Telecom got the "tw", the cable folks will 
have to go farther afield.  (I rather like their old "Sterling Cable" 
brand, but they probably don't.)

The "ITT" name is shared by various former subsidiaries of a 
now-split conglomerate.  (I think the residuary is Starwood Hotels, 
not one of the "ITT"-branded companies.)  "AT&T Wireless" was spun 
out of AT&T Corp. at one point, though with a bit of irony both were 
later acquired by Southwestern Bell, which took the ATT brand for 
itself.  I refer to them (now "AT&T Inc.") as "faux AT&T".  This 
could make deciphering deals with "AT&T" very confusing.


>-
>Mike Hammett
>Intelligent Computing Solutions
>http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>On 8/4/2010 1:23 AM, John Thomas wrote:
> > Yes, I have heard of them. Time Warner (TW Telecom) is my 
> upstream. We aren't paying for IP addresses, but we only have a /27 
> of addresses with them.
> >

  --
  Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
  ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
  +1 617 795 2701 




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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Glenn Kelley]

If anyone is interested in doing gameservers I can give you a really easy 
solution. 

the CPS gameserver has a large amount of games -and the cost...    FREE 

well - you do need a cpanel license - but for a VPS it costs only $15 from 
buycpanel.com 

Pretty easy setup  - if stuck ask me. 





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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Mike Hammett]

  Time Warner Telecom and Time Warner Cable are entirely different 
companies.  No present relationship whatsoever.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



On 8/4/2010 1:23 AM, John Thomas wrote:
> Yes, I have heard of them. Time Warner (TW Telecom) is my upstream. We aren't 
> paying for IP addresses, but we only have a /27 of addresses with them.
>
>
>
> Robert West  wrote:
>
>> ATT and Time Warner.  You may have heard of them.  :)
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of John Thomas
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:28 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>> Robert, what upstream is charging $15 per month? If that is true, I have a
>> portable /19 I am going to start renting..
>>
>> John
>>
>> Robert West  wrote:
>>
>>> Depends on if you have to pay for it.  Some upstreamproviders give them
>>> for free, others not.  Some WISPS pay for their own block.  Either way,
>>> as with everything in  business, if I have to pay 15 bucks for a static
>>> you better believe that cost is gonna be passed on.  That's a HUGE
>>> percentage of the cost of providing service to that customer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:55 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.
>>>
>>> We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All
>>> customers get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for a
>>> consistent public IP.
>>>
>>> NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Blake Covarrubias
>>>
>>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
>>>
>>>> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let
>> go.
>>>>> Or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>>>> On Behalf Of John Thomas
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>
>>>>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I
>>>>> would find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal"
>>>>>> according to the
>>>>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month
>>>>>> *grins* and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign
>>>>>> that static to
>>>>> the
>>>>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman"
>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List"
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
&g

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Blake Covarrubias]

We've been using v6 internally for about a year.

We've recently begun providing v6 to select customers; usually the ones with 
/26 or more of v4 address space. At that size they're usually technically 
competent, and thus ready to start migrating.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Aug 3, 2010, at 6:04 AM, Robert West wrote:

> How long have been using the v6?  
> 
> Bob-
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:55 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
> 
> I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.
> 
> We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All
> customers get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for a
> consistent public IP.
> 
> NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.
> 
> --
> Blake Covarrubias
> 
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
> 
>> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>> 
>>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let go.
>>> Or not.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of John Thomas
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>> 
>>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
>>> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to
> the
>>> 
>>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month
> *grins*
>>>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to
>>> the
>>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>> 
>>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy
> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me
>>> do
>>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet
>>> and
>>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>>>> else.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if
> you
>>>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>>>> Network Engineer
>>>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>>>> marlon
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[John Thomas]

Yes, I have heard of them. Time Warner (TW Telecom) is my upstream. We aren't 
paying for IP addresses, but we only have a /27 of addresses with them.



Robert West  wrote:

>ATT and Time Warner.  You may have heard of them.  :)
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>Behalf Of John Thomas
>Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:28 AM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>Robert, what upstream is charging $15 per month? If that is true, I have a
>portable /19 I am going to start renting..
>
>John
>
>Robert West  wrote:
>
>>Depends on if you have to pay for it.  Some upstreamproviders give them 
>>for free, others not.  Some WISPS pay for their own block.  Either way, 
>>as with everything in  business, if I have to pay 15 bucks for a static 
>>you better believe that cost is gonna be passed on.  That's a HUGE 
>>percentage of the cost of providing service to that customer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
>>Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
>>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:55 PM
>>To: WISPA General List
>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>>I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.
>>
>>We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All 
>>customers get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for a 
>>consistent public IP.
>>
>>NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.
>>
>>--
>>Blake Covarrubias
>>
>>On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
>>
>>> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let
>go.
>>>> Or not.
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>>> On Behalf Of John Thomas
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>> 
>>>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I 
>>>> would find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>>> 
>>>> John
>>>> 
>>>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" 
>>>>> according to the
>>>> 
>>>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month
>>>>> *grins* and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign 
>>>>> that static to
>>>> the
>>>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would 
>>>>>>> let me
>>>> do
>>>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, 
>>>>>>> telnet
>>>> and
>>>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every 
>>>>>>> port from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access 
>>>>>>> to anyone else.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP 
&g

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Scottie Arnett]

I have been doing a lot of that lately(Fired, or fired before you are
hired). Had a customer come in today...first thing out of their mouth was
Hulu and Netflix. Told them, "we are not a solution for you."

Scottie


> Yup!
>
>  -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Robert West
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 8:57 PM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
> Fired.
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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>
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>





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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[RickG]

And thats exactly where upload bandwidth users should be, in your noc.
Why tie up valuable AP time with a subscriber using upstream time?
Most people want download speed. Others can use a hosting service or
your noc :)

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Josh Luthman
 wrote:
> I don't think many people are going to see this.  Pretty sure every
> ISP out there has a heavier download ratio then upload ratio.  The
> upload bandwidth is minimal (say 512k) so it isn't like they can host
> much on it.
>
> I do have a customer that pays for 2U of rack space in our NOC for
> their game servers.  This is awesome for everyone - it saves them
> money versus a big colo, uses my under utilized upstream and they get
> a great connection for their games.
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Justin Wilson  wrote:
>>    Charging for a Static IP is also a deterrent.  Most of the time either
>> gamers or people who want to run servers want static public IP addresses.
>>  You don’t want some kid hosting 10 other friends on his connection do you?
>>  This is why most gamers need to have a public IP.  They are essentially
>> running a server for their buddies to connect to.  All Xbox Live does is
>> connect to the best host (aka other person) to feed off them.
>>
>> If you are going to hand out public IP addresses to residential
>> customers assign them from a pool and make them change so often via DHCP.
>> --
>> Justin Wilson 
>> http://www.mtin.net/blog
>> Wisp Consulting – Tower Climbing – Network Support
>>
>>
>> ____________
>> From: Mike Hammett 
>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:00:42 -0500
>> To: WISPA General List 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>>  I plan to IPv6 in the next year or so.
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/2/2010 10:04 AM, Jeremy Parr wrote:
>>> Reason number 5392 to not NAT your customers. Along those lines, who
>>> is rolling out a dual stack ipv6 network?
>>>
>>> On 8/2/10, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>>> servers.
>>>> > From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and
>>>> > Play
>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>>> device?
>>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let
>>>> them
>>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>>>> do
>>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>>> that
>>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> WAVELINC
>>>> P.O. Box 126
>>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>>> 419-562-6405
>>>> www.wavelinc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> 
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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Jeremie Chism]

I have learned many lessons in this business. I am sure I am not
alone. One is that I provide a good service. One that is worth a fair
price. I used to try to do everything to get a customer. Give away
equipment and many other things. That usually leads to you and the
company being taken advantage of. When I started charging for most
everything (bear in mind these charges are fair and by no means am I
the cheapest in town) my sales actually went up.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 3, 2010, at 9:14 PM, "Robert West"  wrote:

> ATT and Time Warner.  You may have heard of them.  :)
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of John Thomas
> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:28 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
> Robert, what upstream is charging $15 per month? If that is true, I have a
> portable /19 I am going to start renting..
>
> John
>
> Robert West  wrote:
>
>> Depends on if you have to pay for it.  Some upstreamproviders give them
>> for free, others not.  Some WISPS pay for their own block.  Either way,
>> as with everything in  business, if I have to pay 15 bucks for a static
>> you better believe that cost is gonna be passed on.  That's a HUGE
>> percentage of the cost of providing service to that customer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:55 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>> I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.
>>
>> We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All
>> customers get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for a
>> consistent public IP.
>>
>> NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.
>>
>> --
>> Blake Covarrubias
>>
>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
>>
>>> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let
> go.
>>>> Or not.
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>>> On Behalf Of John Thomas
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I
>>>> would find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal"
>>>>> according to the
>>>>
>>>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month
>>>>> *grins* and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign
>>>>> that static to
>>>> the
>>>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would
>>>>>>> let me
>>>> do
>>>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH,
>>>>>>> telnet
>>>> and
>

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Jeremie Chism]

Here everyone charges for static public. Att, concert, the clec's that
are left and the smaller isp's.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 3, 2010, at 12:25 AM, John Thomas  wrote:

> Are you always that quick to jump to conclusions? I guess I am just spoiled 
> living in CA and NV as all the ISPs I have ever known of assign IP addresses 
> either free or $5 per month.
>
> Jeremie Chism  wrote:
>
>> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>>
>>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let go.
>>> Or not.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of John Thomas
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
>>> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
>>>
>>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
>>>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to
>>> the
>>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>>
>>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>>
>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me
>>> do
>>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet
>>> and
>>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>>>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>>>> Network Engineer
>>>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>>>> marlon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>>>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>>>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>>>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>>>>> (I think it's called open?).

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Robert West]

ATT and Time Warner.  You may have heard of them.  :)



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of John Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:28 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

Robert, what upstream is charging $15 per month? If that is true, I have a
portable /19 I am going to start renting..

John

Robert West  wrote:

>Depends on if you have to pay for it.  Some upstreamproviders give them 
>for free, others not.  Some WISPS pay for their own block.  Either way, 
>as with everything in  business, if I have to pay 15 bucks for a static 
>you better believe that cost is gonna be passed on.  That's a HUGE 
>percentage of the cost of providing service to that customer.
>
>
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
>Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:55 PM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.
>
>We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All 
>customers get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for a 
>consistent public IP.
>
>NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.
>
>--
>Blake Covarrubias
>
>On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
>
>> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>> 
>>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let
go.
>>> Or not.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>> On Behalf Of John Thomas
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>> 
>>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I 
>>> would find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" 
>>>> according to the
>>> 
>>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month
>>>> *grins* and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign 
>>>> that static to
>>> the
>>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>> 
>>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>>>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would 
>>>>>> let me
>>> do
>>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, 
>>>>>> telnet
>>> and
>>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every 
>>>>>> port from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access 
>>>>>> to anyone else.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP 
>>>>>> if you are doing NAT.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>>>> Network Engineer
>>>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org 
>>>>>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. 
>>>>>> Schafer
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>>> Subje

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Cameron Kilton]

Back when I had time for playing games, I did this very same thing. Put 
my own game server in and, man, it was fun...latency rocked!

-Cameron



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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Josh Luthman]

I don't think many people are going to see this.  Pretty sure every
ISP out there has a heavier download ratio then upload ratio.  The
upload bandwidth is minimal (say 512k) so it isn't like they can host
much on it.

I do have a customer that pays for 2U of rack space in our NOC for
their game servers.  This is awesome for everyone - it saves them
money versus a big colo, uses my under utilized upstream and they get
a great connection for their games.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373



On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Justin Wilson  wrote:
>    Charging for a Static IP is also a deterrent.  Most of the time either
> gamers or people who want to run servers want static public IP addresses.
>  You don’t want some kid hosting 10 other friends on his connection do you?
>  This is why most gamers need to have a public IP.  They are essentially
> running a server for their buddies to connect to.  All Xbox Live does is
> connect to the best host (aka other person) to feed off them.
>
> If you are going to hand out public IP addresses to residential
> customers assign them from a pool and make them change so often via DHCP.
> --
> Justin Wilson 
> http://www.mtin.net/blog
> Wisp Consulting – Tower Climbing – Network Support
>
>
> 
> From: Mike Hammett 
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:00:42 -0500
> To: WISPA General List 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>  I plan to IPv6 in the next year or so.
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> On 8/2/2010 10:04 AM, Jeremy Parr wrote:
>> Reason number 5392 to not NAT your customers. Along those lines, who
>> is rolling out a dual stack ipv6 network?
>>
>> On 8/2/10, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>> servers.
>>> > From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and
>>> > Play
>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>> device?
>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let
>>> them
>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>>> do
>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>> that
>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>> WAVELINC
>>> P.O. Box 126
>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>> 419-562-6405
>>> www.wavelinc.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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> 
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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Justin Wilson]

Charging for a Static IP is also a deterrent.  Most of the time either
gamers or people who want to run servers want static public IP addresses.
You don¹t want some kid hosting 10 other friends on his connection do you?
This is why most gamers need to have a public IP.  They are essentially
running a server for their buddies to connect to.  All Xbox Live does is
connect to the best host (aka other person) to feed off them.

If you are going to hand out public IP addresses to residential
customers assign them from a pool and make them change so often via DHCP.
-- 
Justin Wilson 
http://www.mtin.net/blog
Wisp Consulting ­ Tower Climbing ­ Network Support



From: Mike Hammett 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:00:42 -0500
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

  I plan to IPv6 in the next year or so.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



On 8/2/2010 10:04 AM, Jeremy Parr wrote:
> Reason number 5392 to not NAT your customers. Along those lines, who
> is rolling out a dual stack ipv6 network?
>
> On 8/2/10, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other servers.
>> > From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that device?
>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let them
>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then do
>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does that
>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>
>>
>>
>> Kurt Fankhauser
>> WAVELINC
>> P.O. Box 126
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>> 419-562-6405
>> www.wavelinc.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>




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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[RickG]

I'd be curious as to who those ISP's are?

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 1:25 AM, John Thomas  wrote:
> Are you always that quick to jump to conclusions? I guess I am just spoiled 
> living in CA and NV as all the ISPs I have ever known of assign IP addresses 
> either free or $5 per month.
>
> Jeremie Chism  wrote:
>
>>True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>>
>>Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>>
>>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let go.
>>> Or not.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of John Thomas
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
>>> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
>>>
>>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
>>>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to
>>> the
>>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>>
>>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>>
>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me
>>> do
>>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet
>>> and
>>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>>>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>>>> Network Engineer
>>>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>>>> marlon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>>>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>>>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>>>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>>>>> (I think it's called open?).

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Robert West]

How long have been using the v6?  

Bob-

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:55 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.

We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All
customers get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for a
consistent public IP.

NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:

> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
> 
>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let go.
>> Or not.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of John Thomas
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>> 
>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
>> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>> 
>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to
the
>> 
>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month
*grins*
>>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to
>> the
>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>> 
>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>> 
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy

>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me
>> do
>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet
>> and
>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>>> else.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if
you
>>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>>> Network Engineer
>>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
On
>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>> 
>>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>>> marlon
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>> 
>>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Josh Lu

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[John Thomas]

Robert, what upstream is charging $15 per month? If that is true, I have a 
portable /19 I am going to start renting..

John

Robert West  wrote:

>Depends on if you have to pay for it.  Some upstreamproviders give them for
>free, others not.  Some WISPS pay for their own block.  Either way, as with
>everything in  business, if I have to pay 15 bucks for a static you better
>believe that cost is gonna be passed on.  That's a HUGE percentage of the
>cost of providing service to that customer.
>
>
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:55 PM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.
>
>We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All
>customers get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for a
>consistent public IP.
>
>NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.
>
>--
>Blake Covarrubias
>
>On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:
>
>> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>> 
>>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let go.
>>> Or not.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
>>> On Behalf Of John Thomas
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>> 
>>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I 
>>> would find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according 
>>>> to the
>>> 
>>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month 
>>>> *grins* and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign 
>>>> that static to
>>> the
>>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>> 
>>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>>>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would 
>>>>>> let me
>>> do
>>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, 
>>>>>> telnet
>>> and
>>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every 
>>>>>> port from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access 
>>>>>> to anyone else.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP 
>>>>>> if you are doing NAT.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>>>> Network Engineer
>>>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org 
>>>>>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been 
>>>>>> told that it's a big security hole.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>&

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[John Thomas]

Are you always that quick to jump to conclusions? I guess I am just spoiled 
living in CA and NV as all the ISPs I have ever known of assign IP addresses 
either free or $5 per month. 

Jeremie Chism  wrote:

>True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
>
>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let go.
>> Or not.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of John Thomas
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
>> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>>
>> John
>>
>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>
>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
>>
>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
>>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to
>> the
>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>>
>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>>
>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me
>> do
>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet
>> and
>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>>> else.
>>>>>
>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>>> Network Engineer
>>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>
>>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>>> marlon
>>>>>
>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>>>
>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> about you NAT? Apparen

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Robert West]

Depends on if you have to pay for it.  Some upstreamproviders give them for
free, others not.  Some WISPS pay for their own block.  Either way, as with
everything in  business, if I have to pay 15 bucks for a static you better
believe that cost is gonna be passed on.  That's a HUGE percentage of the
cost of providing service to that customer.





-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:55 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.

We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All
customers get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for a
consistent public IP.

NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:

> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
> 
>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let go.
>> Or not.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
>> On Behalf Of John Thomas
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>> 
>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I 
>> would find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>> 
>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according 
>>> to the
>> 
>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month 
>>> *grins* and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign 
>>> that static to
>> the
>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>> 
>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>> 
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would 
>>>>> let me
>> do
>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, 
>>>>> telnet
>> and
>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every 
>>>>> port from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access 
>>>>> to anyone else.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP 
>>>>> if you are doing NAT.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>>> Network Engineer
>>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org 
>>>>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>> 
>>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been 
>>>>> told that it's a big security hole.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>>> marlon
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>> 
>>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I 
>>>>> have it marked as 4.6 with modifications 

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Blake Covarrubias]

I wasn't aware so many WISPs charge for static and/or public IPs.

We have a /19 and /21 IPv4 allocation, and a /32 v6 allocation. All customers 
get dynamic, possibly changing, public IPs. We charge for a consistent public 
IP.

NAT causes too many potential headaches for us to even bother with it.

--
Blake Covarrubias

On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Jeremie Chism wrote:

> True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:
> 
>> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let go.
>> Or not.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of John Thomas
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>> 
>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
>> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>> 
>>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
>> 
>>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
>>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to
>> the
>>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>> 
>>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>> 
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me
>> do
>>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet
>> and
>>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>>> else.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>>> Network Engineer
>>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>> 
>>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>>> marlon
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Original Message -
>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>> 
>>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Jeremie Chism]

True. Sounds like a bandwidth hog to me.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 2, 2010, at 8:46 PM, "Mike"  wrote:

> Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let go.
> Or not.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of John Thomas
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>
> John
>
> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>
>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
>
>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to
> the
>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>
>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -----
>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>>
>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>> wrote:
>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me
> do
>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet
> and
>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>> else.
>>>>
>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>> Network Engineer
>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>> marlon
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>
>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to
>>>>> you
>>>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about
>>>>> being
>>>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>>>> servers.
>>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and
>>>>> Play
>>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>>>> device?
>>>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let
>>>>> them
>>>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on t

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Jeremie Chism]

I see 15/month for static public all the time here. I guess it depends
on your market. But I also have comcast doing 50/5 here to.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 2, 2010, at 6:27 PM, John Thomas  wrote:

> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would 
> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>
> John
>
> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>
>> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
>> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
>> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to the
>> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>
>> -Kurt Fankhauser
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>>
>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>> wrote:
>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do
>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and
>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>> else.
>>>>
>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>> Network Engineer
>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>> marlon
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>
>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to
>>>>> you
>>>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about
>>>>> being
>>>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>>>> servers.
>>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and
>>>>> Play
>>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>>>> device?
>>>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let
>>>>> them
>>>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>>>>> do
>>>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>>>> that
>>>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>>>

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Robert West]

With me, a static and public is one in the same.

 

 

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeremy Parr
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 9:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

 

On 2 August 2010 20:26, Glenn Kelley  wrote:

Time Warner is about $15 

 

In this neck of the woods there are not that many providers -   you going
elsewhere would necessitate you either going into business for yourself or
moving to Sneaker Net ;-)

 


For a *static* or just for a public IP address?




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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Mike]

Yup!

 -Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Robert West
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 8:57 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

Fired.





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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Jeremy Parr]

On 2 August 2010 20:26, Glenn Kelley  wrote:

> Time Warner is about $15
>
> In this neck of the woods there are not that many providers -   you going
> elsewhere would necessitate you either going into business for yourself or
> moving to Sneaker Net ;-)
>
>
For a *static* or just for a public IP address?



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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Robert West]

Fired.


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 9:46 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let go.
Or not.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of John Thomas
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.

John

Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:

>Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to 
>the

>customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month 
>*grins* and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that 
>static to
the 
>customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>
>-Kurt Fankhauser
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Josh Luthman" 
>To: "WISPA General List" 
>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>
>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>> 
>> wrote:
>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let 
>>> me
do 
>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, 
>>> telnet
and 
>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every 
>>> port from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to 
>>> anyone else.
>>>
>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if 
>>> you are doing NAT.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adam Kennedy
>>> Network Engineer
>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
>>> On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been 
>>> told that it's a big security hole.
>>>
>>> Thoughts on that?
>>> marlon
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>
>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have 
>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they 
>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even 
>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict 
>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>> wrote:
>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark 
>>>> to you about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very 
>>>> picky about being behind any NAT device and its ability to make 
>>>> connections to other servers.
>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug 
>>>> and Play
>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing 
>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that 
>>>> device?
>>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and 
>>>> let them worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core 
>>>> router and
then
>>>> do
>>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable 
>>>> does that not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> WAVELINC
>>>> P

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Mike]

Simple analysis might expose that customer to be one you'd rather let go.
Or not.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of John Thomas
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:27 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.

John

Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:

>Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the

>customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins* 
>and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to
the 
>customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>
>-Kurt Fankhauser
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Josh Luthman" 
>To: "WISPA General List" 
>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>
>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy  
>> wrote:
>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me
do 
>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet
and 
>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port 
>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone 
>>> else.
>>>
>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you 
>>> are doing NAT.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adam Kennedy
>>> Network Engineer
>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>
>>> Thoughts on that?
>>> marlon
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>
>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  
>>> wrote:
>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to 
>>>> you
>>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about 
>>>> being
>>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>>> servers.
>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and 
>>>> Play
>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>>> device?
>>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let 
>>>> them
>>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and
then
>>>> do
>>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>>> that
>>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> WAVELINC
>>>> P.O. Box 126
>>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>>> 419-562-6405
>>>> www.wavelinc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
&g

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Chuck Profito]

For residential we charge 10 per month too, Business is included in the
monthly billing...

Chuck Profito
209-988-7388
CV-Access, Inc.
www.cv-access.com / cprofito'at'cv-access.com  
Providing Broadband Internet Access to 
California's Rural Central Valley



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 5:59 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

BellSouth (ATT) charges $10.

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:27 PM, John Thomas  wrote:
> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>
> John
>
> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>
>>Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to
the
>>customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
>>and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to
the
>>customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>
>>-Kurt Fankhauser
>>
>>
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>To: "WISPA General List" 
>>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>>
>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>> wrote:
>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me
do
>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet
and
>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>> else.
>>>>
>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>> Network Engineer
>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>> marlon
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>
>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to
>>>>> you
>>>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about
>>>>> being
>>>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>>>> servers.
>>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and
>>>>> Play
>>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>>>> device?
>>>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let
>>>>&

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Robert West]

Or dreaming.  

 

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Glenn Kelley
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 8:27 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

 

Time Warner is about $15 

 

In this neck of the woods there are not that many providers -   you going
elsewhere would necessitate you either going into business for yourself or
moving to Sneaker Net ;-)

 

 

On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:30 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:





Around here everyone charges 15 for a static.

 

On Aug 2, 2010 7:29 PM, "John Thomas"  wrote:

And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.

John


Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:

>Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the

>customer is I"m gonna...

>- Original Message - 
>From: "Josh Luthman" 
>To: "WISPA Gener...

>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>

>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>

>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Tr...

>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy  
>> wrote:
>>> I would a...

>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List

>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL ro...

 





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_

Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com 

  Email: gl...@hostmedic.com

Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.

 




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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[RickG]

BellSouth (ATT) charges $10.

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:27 PM, John Thomas  wrote:
> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would 
> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>
> John
>
> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>
>>Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
>>customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
>>and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to the
>>customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>>
>>-Kurt Fankhauser
>>
>>
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>To: "WISPA General List" 
>>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>>
>>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>>> wrote:
>>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do
>>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and
>>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>>> else.
>>>>
>>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>>>> are doing NAT.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Adam Kennedy
>>>> Network Engineer
>>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts on that?
>>>> marlon
>>>>
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>>
>>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to
>>>>> you
>>>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about
>>>>> being
>>>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>>>> servers.
>>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and
>>>>> Play
>>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>>>> device?
>>>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let
>>>>> them
>>>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>>>>> do
>>>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>>>> that
>>>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>>>> WAVELINC
>>>>> P.O. Box 126
>>>>> Bucyrus, OH 44

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Glenn Kelley]

Time Warner is about $15 

In this neck of the woods there are not that many providers -   you going 
elsewhere would necessitate you either going into business for yourself or 
moving to Sneaker Net ;-)


On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:30 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

> Around here everyone charges 15 for a static.
> 
> 
>> On Aug 2, 2010 7:29 PM, "John Thomas"  wrote:
>> 
>> And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would 
>> find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>> 
>> >Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the 
>> >customer is I"m gonna...
>> 
>> >- Original Message - 
>> >From: "Josh Luthman" 
>> >To: "WISPA Gener...
>> 
>> >Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>> >Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> >> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>> >>
>> 
>> >> Josh Luthman
>> >> Office: 937-552-2340
>> >> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> >> 1100 Wayne St
>> >> Suite 1337
>> >> Tr...
>> 
>> >> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy  
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> I would a...
>> 
>> >>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>> >>> To: WISPA General List
>> 
>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>> >>>
>> >>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL ro...
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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_
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  Email: gl...@hostmedic.com
Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.




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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Robert West]

Ditto!

 

 

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

 

Around here everyone charges 15 for a static.

On Aug 2, 2010 7:29 PM, "John Thomas"  wrote:

And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.

John


Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:

>Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the

>customer is I"m gonna...

>- Original Message - 
>From: "Josh Luthman" 
>To: "WISPA Gener...

>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>

>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>

>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Tr...

>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy  
>> wrote:
>>> I would a...

>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List

>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL ro...




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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Robert West]

Five bucks?  TW and ATT charges fifteen bucks or more for a static around
here.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of John Thomas
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:27 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.

John

Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:

>Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to 
>the customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month 
>*grins* and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that 
>static to the customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>
>-Kurt Fankhauser
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Josh Luthman" 
>To: "WISPA General List" 
>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>
>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>> 
>> wrote:
>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let 
>>> me do my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, 
>>> telnet and web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port 
>>> map every port from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing 
>>> access to anyone else.
>>>
>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if 
>>> you are doing NAT.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adam Kennedy
>>> Network Engineer
>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
>>> On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been 
>>> told that it's a big security hole.
>>>
>>> Thoughts on that?
>>> marlon
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>
>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have 
>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they 
>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even 
>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict 
>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>> wrote:
>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark 
>>>> to you about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very 
>>>> picky about being behind any NAT device and its ability to make 
>>>> connections to other servers.
>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug 
>>>> and Play
>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing 
>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that 
>>>> device?
>>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and 
>>>> let them worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core 
>>>> router and then do a double-NAT through the customers Linksys 
>>>> router with UPnP enable does that not work because of the 
>>>> double-NAT?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> WAVELINC
>>>> P.O. Box 126
>>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>>> 419-562-6405
>>>> www.wavelinc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Josh Luthman]

Around here everyone charges 15 for a static.

On Aug 2, 2010 7:29 PM, "John Thomas"  wrote:

And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would
find a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.

John


Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:

>Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the

>customer is I"m gonna...

>- Original Message -
>From: "Josh Luthman" 
>To: "WISPA Gener...

>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>

>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>

>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Tr...

>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>> wrote:
>>> I would a...

>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List

>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL ro...



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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[John Thomas]

And if I were your client, and you told me $10 for an IP address, I would find 
a new ISP. The most I have ever seen charged was $5 a month.

John

Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:

>Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the 
>customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins* 
>and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to the 
>customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>
>-Kurt Fankhauser
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Josh Luthman" 
>To: "WISPA General List" 
>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>
>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy  
>> wrote:
>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do 
>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and 
>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port 
>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone 
>>> else.
>>>
>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you 
>>> are doing NAT.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adam Kennedy
>>> Network Engineer
>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>
>>> Thoughts on that?
>>> marlon
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>
>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  
>>> wrote:
>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to 
>>>> you
>>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about 
>>>> being
>>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>>> servers.
>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and 
>>>> Play
>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>>> device?
>>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let 
>>>> them
>>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>>>> do
>>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>>> that
>>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> WAVELINC
>>>> P.O. Box 126
>>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>>> 419-562-6405
>>>> www.wavelinc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> WIS

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Greg Ihnen]

I do and only do manual port forwarding.

Greg

On Aug 2, 2010, at 1:51 PM, RickG wrote:

> So, do you turn off UPnP or not?
> 
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Greg Ihnen  wrote:
>> I've heard (I think it was on a Security Now podcast) that UPnP opens up big 
>> security hole for the end user (your customers) because there are trojans 
>> that use UPnP to poke a hole in the router and then it phones home with the 
>> IP address and port it opened. If that compromised machine starts running 
>> amok on your network then it would be a problem for you.
>> 
>> Greg
>> 
>> On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>> 
>>> Man that sucks.  We turn off upnp on ALL routers.  I've always been told
>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>> 
>>> Thoughts on that?
>>> marlon
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>> 
>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp.  Even
>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>> 
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>>> servers.
>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>>> device?
>>>> Or should I just issue public IP’s to the customer that games and let them
>>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>>>> do
>>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>>> that
>>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> WAVELINC
>>>> P.O. Box 126
>>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>>> 419-562-6405
>>>> www.wavelinc.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>> 
>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>>>> 
>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Josh Luthman]

Default for everything I'm aware of is off.  Unless someone has a
different experience?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373



On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Blair Davis  wrote:
> we do.
>
> RickG wrote:
>
> So, do you turn off UPnP or not?
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Greg Ihnen  wrote:
>
>
> I've heard (I think it was on a Security Now podcast) that UPnP opens up big
> security hole for the end user (your customers) because there are trojans
> that use UPnP to poke a hole in the router and then it phones home with the
> IP address and port it opened. If that compromised machine starts running
> amok on your network then it would be a problem for you.
>
> Greg
>
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>
>
>
> Man that sucks.  We turn off upnp on ALL routers.  I've always been told
> that it's a big security hole.
>
> Thoughts on that?
> marlon
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Josh Luthman" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>
> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>
> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp.  Even
> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
> (I think it's called open?).
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>
>
> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
> servers.
> >From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
> device?
> Or should I just issue public IP’s to the customer that games and let them
> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
> do
> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
> that
> not work because of the double-NAT?
>
>
>
> Kurt Fankhauser
> WAVELINC
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> 419-562-6405
> www.wavelinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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>
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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Blair Davis]

we do.

RickG wrote:

  So, do you turn off UPnP or not?

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Greg Ihnen  wrote:
  
  
I've heard (I think it was on a Security Now podcast) that UPnP opens up big security hole for the end user (your customers) because there are trojans that use UPnP to poke a hole in the router and then it phones home with the IP address and port it opened. If that compromised machine starts running amok on your network then it would be a problem for you.

Greg

On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:



  Man that sucks.  We turn off upnp on ALL routers.  I've always been told
that it's a big security hole.

Thoughts on that?
marlon

- Original Message -
From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP


I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.

When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp.  Even
this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
(I think it's called open?).

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373



On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
  
  
So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
servers.
>From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
(UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
device?
Or should I just issue public IP’s to the customer that games and let them
worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
do
a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
that
not work because of the double-NAT?



Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com









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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[RickG]

So, do you turn off UPnP or not?

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Greg Ihnen  wrote:
> I've heard (I think it was on a Security Now podcast) that UPnP opens up big 
> security hole for the end user (your customers) because there are trojans 
> that use UPnP to poke a hole in the router and then it phones home with the 
> IP address and port it opened. If that compromised machine starts running 
> amok on your network then it would be a problem for you.
>
> Greg
>
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>
>> Man that sucks.  We turn off upnp on ALL routers.  I've always been told
>> that it's a big security hole.
>>
>> Thoughts on that?
>> marlon
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>>
>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>
>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp.  Even
>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>> (I think it's called open?).
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>> servers.
>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>> device?
>>> Or should I just issue public IP’s to the customer that games and let them
>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>>> do
>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>> that
>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>> WAVELINC
>>> P.O. Box 126
>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>> 419-562-6405
>>> www.wavelinc.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Justin Wilson]

We have a network of 7 routers that is running dual stack.  Actually
have some customers receiving IPV6 addresses.

Justin
-- 
Justin Wilson 
http://www.mtin.net/blog
Wisp Consulting ­ Tower Climbing ­ Network Support



From: Mike Hammett 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:00:42 -0500
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

  I plan to IPv6 in the next year or so.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



On 8/2/2010 10:04 AM, Jeremy Parr wrote:
> Reason number 5392 to not NAT your customers. Along those lines, who
> is rolling out a dual stack ipv6 network?
>
> On 8/2/10, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other servers.
>> > From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that device?
>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let them
>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then do
>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does that
>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>
>>
>>
>> Kurt Fankhauser
>> WAVELINC
>> P.O. Box 126
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>> 419-562-6405
>> www.wavelinc.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>




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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Greg Ihnen]

I've heard (I think it was on a Security Now podcast) that UPnP opens up big 
security hole for the end user (your customers) because there are trojans that 
use UPnP to poke a hole in the router and then it phones home with the IP 
address and port it opened. If that compromised machine starts running amok on 
your network then it would be a problem for you.

Greg

On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

> Man that sucks.  We turn off upnp on ALL routers.  I've always been told 
> that it's a big security hole.
> 
> Thoughts on that?
> marlon
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Josh Luthman" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
> 
> 
> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
> 
> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp.  Even
> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
> (I think it's called open?).
> 
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other 
>> servers.
>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that 
>> device?
>> Or should I just issue public IP’s to the customer that games and let them
>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then 
>> do
>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does 
>> that
>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Kurt Fankhauser
>> WAVELINC
>> P.O. Box 126
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>> 419-562-6405
>> www.wavelinc.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> 
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> 
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Mike Hammett]

  I plan to IPv6 in the next year or so.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



On 8/2/2010 10:04 AM, Jeremy Parr wrote:
> Reason number 5392 to not NAT your customers. Along those lines, who
> is rolling out a dual stack ipv6 network?
>
> On 8/2/10, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other servers.
>> > From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that device?
>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let them
>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then do
>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does that
>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>
>>
>>
>> Kurt Fankhauser
>> WAVELINC
>> P.O. Box 126
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>> 419-562-6405
>> www.wavelinc.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>



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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Mike Hammett]

 uPNP on the only router between public and private will play friendly 
with multiple XBoxes.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



On 8/2/2010 9:32 AM, Nick Olsen wrote:
I've heard it a bit. Personally, I've never had a problem when my Xbox 
would list my NAT as "strict". But I've heard people scream about it. 
You can either port forward to them, Or enable UPnP and it will do it 
for you. If your double NAT-ing then you will need to do it on both 
routers as UPnP will only cover the one closest to the Xbox. And if 
they have multiple xbox consoles you can only port forward to one, Or 
give them multiple statics.

Just my experiences with it...

Nick Olsen
Network Operations
(321) 205-1100 x106




*From*: "Kurt Fankhauser" 
*Sent*: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:11 AM
*To*: "WISPA General List" 
*Subject*: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to 
you about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky 
about being behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections 
to other servers. From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses 
Universal Plug and Play (UPnP) to get around this but the question I 
have is. If your doing masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you 
enable UPnP on that device? Or should I just issue public IP's to the 
customer that games and let them worry about it? And if you have UPnP 
enabled on the core router and then do a double-NAT through the 
customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does that not work because 
of the double-NAT?


Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com>






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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Fred Goldstein]

At 8/2/2010 12:07 PM, Glenn Kelley wrote:

FRIENDS DONT LET FRIENDS BRIDGE NETWORKS

- what happens when they place something in a loop on their network 
- unless you are STP ready - you will have fun tracking it down.


Have the vendors in this space caught up to Carrier Ethernet yet?

LAN bridging, based on MAC addresses, is a really bad idea, outside 
of a small LAN of course.  But in the fiber optic world, the big 
thing nowadays is Carrier Ethernet.  This is not bridging, but is a 
newer "layer 2" network based on Ethernet framing.  It uses VLAN tags 
for everything, assigning QoS (CIR, EIR) to each VLAN, and using RSTP 
(sort of the low common denominator) or something smarter to build 
the paths.  I sometimes call it "Ethernet framed Frame Relay".


RouterOS seems to know about 802.1q VLANs in the old sense but not 
much more. Anybody out there using CE for anything wireless?




On Aug 2, 2010, at 11:55 AM, Kurt Fankhauser wrote:


Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to the
customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.

-Kurt Fankhauser


- Original Message -
From: "Josh Luthman" 
<<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>

To: "WISPA General List" <<mailto:wireless@wispa.org>wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP


 --
 Fred Goldsteink1io   fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
 ionary Consulting  http://www.ionary.com/
 +1 617 795 2701 


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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Matt]

> This could be a huge advantage to you.

> Walk with me a second... or two.

> If a client wishes a Dedicated IP address that works for services such as
> Gaming, VPN, etc.
> Then let them pay a little extra for it.
> I see this as a natural money maker myself.

That really depends.  Do your competitors charge extra for a public IP?

Matt



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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Justin Wilson]

Call it a gaming package and it will sell like hotcakes.
-- 
Justin Wilson 
http://www.mtin.net/blog
Wisp Consulting ­ Tower Climbing ­ Network Support



From: Kurt Fankhauser 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:55:24 -0400
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to the
customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.

-Kurt Fankhauser


- Original Message -
From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP


> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
> wrote:
>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do
>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and
>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>> else.
>>
>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>> are doing NAT.
>>
>> --
>> Adam Kennedy
>> Network Engineer
>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>> that it's a big security hole.
>>
>> Thoughts on that?
>> marlon
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>>
>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>
>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>> (I think it's called open?).
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>> wrote:
>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to
>>> you
>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about
>>> being
>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>> servers.
>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and
>>> Play
>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>> device?
>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let
>>> them
>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>>> do
>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>> that
>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>> WAVELINC
>>> P.O. Box 126
>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>> 419-562-6405
>>> www.wavelinc.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 

>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 

>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>
>>
>> 

>> WISPA W

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Glenn Kelley]

FRIENDS DONT LET FRIENDS BRIDGE NETWORKS 

- what happens when they place something in a loop on their network - unless 
you are STP ready - you will have fun tracking it down. 


On Aug 2, 2010, at 11:55 AM, Kurt Fankhauser wrote:

> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the 
> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins* 
> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to the 
> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
> 
> -Kurt Fankhauser
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Josh Luthman" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
> 
> 
>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>> 
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy  
>> wrote:
>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do 
>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and 
>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port 
>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone 
>>> else.
>>> 
>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you 
>>> are doing NAT.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Adam Kennedy
>>> Network Engineer
>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>> 
>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>> 
>>> Thoughts on that?
>>> marlon
>>> 
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>> 
>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>> 
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  
>>> wrote:
>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to 
>>>> you
>>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about 
>>>> being
>>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>>> servers.
>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and 
>>>> Play
>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>>> device?
>>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let 
>>>> them
>>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>>>> do
>>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>>> that
>>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> WAVELINC
>>>> P.O. Box 126
>>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>>> 419-562-6405
>>>> www.wavelinc.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>> ---

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Glenn Kelley]

or do 1 to 1 nat 

On Aug 2, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy wrote:

> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do my 
> own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and web. 
> For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port from 1024 
> through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone else.
> 
> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you are 
> doing NAT.
> 
> --
> Adam Kennedy
> Network Engineer
> Omnicity, Inc.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
> 
> Man that sucks.  We turn off upnp on ALL routers.  I've always been told
> that it's a big security hole.
> 
> Thoughts on that?
> marlon
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Josh Luthman" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
> 
> 
> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
> 
> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp.  Even
> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
> (I think it's called open?).
> 
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>> servers.
>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>> device?
>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let them
>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>> do
>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>> that
>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Kurt Fankhauser
>> WAVELINC
>> P.O. Box 126
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>> 419-562-6405
>> www.wavelinc.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> 
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>> 
> 
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  Email: gl...@hostmedic.com
Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.




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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Josh Luthman]

One good example I can bring up is a customer that has an Xbox plugged
in to a WGT624v4 (nat 1), into our MT CPE (nat 2), goes through
backhauls - Redline, Mikrotik, into our core router (nat 3).

He has never once complained about any Xbox issues.  His #1 concern
when signing up was that the Xbox would work.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373



On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
> Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the
> customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins*
> and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to the
> customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.
>
> -Kurt Fankhauser
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Josh Luthman" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>
>> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy 
>> wrote:
>>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do
>>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and
>>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port
>>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone
>>> else.
>>>
>>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you
>>> are doing NAT.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adam Kennedy
>>> Network Engineer
>>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>>> that it's a big security hole.
>>>
>>> Thoughts on that?
>>> marlon
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>>
>>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>>> (I think it's called open?).
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser 
>>> wrote:
>>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to
>>>> you
>>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about
>>>> being
>>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>>> servers.
>>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and
>>>> Play
>>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>>> device?
>>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let
>>>> them
>>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>>>> do
>>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>>> that
>>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>>> WAVELINC
>>>> P.O. Box 126
>>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>>> 419-562-6405
>>>> www.wavelinc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 

Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Kurt Fankhauser]

Everything i keep coming up with to make this work "ideal" according to the 
customer is I"m gonna have to sell them a public ip for $10/month *grins* 
and then make sure their CPE is in bridge mode and assign that static to the 
customers router so they can enable UPnP themselves.

-Kurt Fankhauser


- Original Message - 
From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP


> Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy  
> wrote:
>> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do 
>> my own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and 
>> web. For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port 
>> from 1024 through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone 
>> else.
>>
>> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you 
>> are doing NAT.
>>
>> --
>> Adam Kennedy
>> Network Engineer
>> Omnicity, Inc.
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>> Man that sucks. We turn off upnp on ALL routers. I've always been told
>> that it's a big security hole.
>>
>> Thoughts on that?
>> marlon
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Josh Luthman" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>>
>>
>> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>>
>> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
>> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
>> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp. Even
>> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
>> (I think it's called open?).
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  
>> wrote:
>>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to 
>>> you
>>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about 
>>> being
>>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>>> servers.
>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and 
>>> Play
>>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>>> device?
>>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let 
>>> them
>>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>>> do
>>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>>> that
>>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kurt Fankhauser
>>> WAVELINC
>>> P.O. Box 126
>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>>> 419-562-6405
>>> www.wavelinc.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
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>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Josh Luthman]

Don't the majority of us NAT at the customer SM?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373



On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Adam Kennedy  wrote:
> I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do my 
> own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and web. 
> For that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port from 1024 
> through 65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone else.
>
> In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you are 
> doing NAT.
>
> --
> Adam Kennedy
> Network Engineer
> Omnicity, Inc.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
> Man that sucks.  We turn off upnp on ALL routers.  I've always been told
> that it's a big security hole.
>
> Thoughts on that?
> marlon
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Josh Luthman" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP
>
>
> I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.
>
> When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
> it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
> gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp.  Even
> this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
> (I think it's called open?).
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
>> servers.
>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
>> device?
>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let them
>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
>> do
>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
>> that
>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>>
>>
>>
>> Kurt Fankhauser
>> WAVELINC
>> P.O. Box 126
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>> 419-562-6405
>> www.wavelinc.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Adam Kennedy]

I would agree that it is a security hole for an ISP. UPnP would let me do my 
own forwards for just about any port I want, including SSH, telnet and web. For 
that matter, I could just be selfish and port map every port from 1024 through 
65535 to my IP, completely killing access to anyone else.

In an ISP environment, the best option really is to disable UPnP if you are 
doing NAT.

--
Adam Kennedy
Network Engineer
Omnicity, Inc.


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:43 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

Man that sucks.  We turn off upnp on ALL routers.  I've always been told
that it's a big security hole.

Thoughts on that?
marlon

- Original Message -
From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP


I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.

When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp.  Even
this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
(I think it's called open?).

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373



On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
> servers.
> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that
> device?
> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let them
> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then
> do
> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does
> that
> not work because of the double-NAT?
>
>
>
> Kurt Fankhauser
> WAVELINC
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> 419-562-6405
> www.wavelinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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>



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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Glenn Kelley]

This could be a huge advantage to you.

Walk with me a second... or two. 

If a client wishes a Dedicated IP address that works for services such as 
Gaming, VPN, etc. 
Then let them pay a little extra for it. 

I see this as a natural money maker myself. 

-- glenn

On Aug 2, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Jeremy Parr wrote:

> Reason number 5392 to not NAT your customers. Along those lines, who
> is rolling out a dual stack ipv6 network?
> 
> On 8/2/10, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
>> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
>> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
>> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other servers.
>>> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
>> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
>> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that device?
>> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let them
>> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then do
>> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does that
>> not work because of the double-NAT?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Kurt Fankhauser
>> WAVELINC
>> P.O. Box 126
>> Bucyrus, OH 44820
>> 419-562-6405
>> www.wavelinc.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my mobile device
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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_
Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com 
  Email: gl...@hostmedic.com
Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.




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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Jeremy Parr]

Reason number 5392 to not NAT your customers. Along those lines, who
is rolling out a dual stack ipv6 network?

On 8/2/10, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other servers.
> >From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that device?
> Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let them
> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then do
> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does that
> not work because of the double-NAT?
>
>
>
> Kurt Fankhauser
> WAVELINC
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> 419-562-6405
> www.wavelinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device



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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Man that sucks.  We turn off upnp on ALL routers.  I've always been told 
that it's a big security hole.

Thoughts on that?
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP


I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.

When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp.  Even
this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
(I think it's called open?).

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373



On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other 
> servers.
> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that 
> device?
> Or should I just issue public IP’s to the customer that games and let them
> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then 
> do
> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does 
> that
> not work because of the double-NAT?
>
>
>
> Kurt Fankhauser
> WAVELINC
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> 419-562-6405
> www.wavelinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Justin Wilson]

The easy answer is give the complainers a public.  The problem you will
run into is XBOX live tells them their nat status.  In my experience you
will have the people who are being told by Microsoft they need to have a
simple nat or whatever the box tells them.

You can make it work with UPnP, but you should have a router which fully
supports it.  Mikrotik has to be pretty much 4.5 or higher.  Even then it
has issues.

Xbox live will work good with a moderate nat setting. This is normally a
single NAT.  What you will run into is gamers try to squeeze every last
³drop² out of their Internet.  No matter what you tell them they won¹t rest
until their settings/network/controls are ideal, at least according to them.

Justin
-- 
Justin Wilson 
http://www.mtin.net/blog
Wisp Consulting ­ Tower Climbing ­ Network Support



From: Kurt Fankhauser 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 10:07:57 -0400
To: 'WISPA General List' 
Subject: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other servers.
>From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
(UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that device?
Or should I just issue public IP¹s to the customer that games and let them
worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then do
a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does that
not work because of the double-NAT?
 
Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com>
 
 
 






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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Nick Olsen]

I've heard it a bit. Personally, I've never had a problem when my Xbox would 
list my NAT as "strict". But I've heard people scream about it. You can either 
port forward to them, Or enable UPnP and it will do it for you. If your double 
NAT-ing then you will need to do it on both routers as UPnP will only cover the 
one closest to the Xbox. And if they have multiple xbox consoles you can only 
port forward to one, Or give them multiple statics.
Just my experiences with it...

Nick Olsen
Network Operations
(321) 205-1100 x106



From: "Kurt Fankhauser" 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:11 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP












So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and
bark to you about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about
being behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other
servers. From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and
Play (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing 
masquerade
on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that device? Or should I
just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let them worry
about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then do a
double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does that not
work because of the double-NAT?

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH
44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com









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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Josh Luthman]

I don't seem to have any issues with double or triple NAT.

When I was working with MT to fix the upnp issue with Xboxes. I have
it marked as 4.6 with modifications (it was an unofficial 4.6 they
gave me) so I would say 4.7 or higher should enable Xbox upnp.  Even
this requires a public IP on the Mikrotik to remove even nice strict
(I think it's called open?).

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373



On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser  wrote:
> So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
> about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
> behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other servers.
> From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
> (UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
> masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that device?
> Or should I just issue public IP’s to the customer that games and let them
> worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then do
> a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does that
> not work because of the double-NAT?
>
>
>
> Kurt Fankhauser
> WAVELINC
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> 419-562-6405
> www.wavelinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Mike Hammett]

 You need one of the 4.x releases of MT for XBox uPNP to work.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



On 8/2/2010 9:07 AM, Kurt Fankhauser wrote:


So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to 
you about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky 
about being behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections 
to other servers. From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses 
Universal Plug and Play (UPnP) to get around this but the question I 
have is. If your doing masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you 
enable UPnP on that device? Or should I just issue public IP's to the 
customer that games and let them worry about it? And if you have UPnP 
enabled on the core router and then do a double-NAT through the 
customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does that not work because 
of the double-NAT?


Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com 





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[WISPA] XBOX live, NAT, and UPnP

[Kurt Fankhauser]

So does anyone here have any customers that use XBOX live and bark to you
about you NAT? Apparently the XBOX live service is very picky about being
behind any NAT device and its ability to make connections to other servers.
>From what I gathered is that the LIVE service uses Universal Plug and Play
(UPnP) to get around this but the question I have is. If your doing
masquerade on a Mikrotik Core Router should you enable UPnP on that device?
Or should I just issue public IP's to the customer that games and let them
worry about it? And if you have UPnP enabled on the core router and then do
a double-NAT through the customers Linksys router with UPnP enable does that
not work because of the double-NAT?

 

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com

 

 

 




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