Re: [WISPA] Why not offer gigabit internet?

[Mark Radabaugh]

My company does offer it but the concerns I had are:

What do you do with the customer who actually uses it continuously?   
Do you put caps on usage (and what does that do to your ability to sell it)?  
Will it hurt you pricing margin for business customers?  
How do you justify the price difference between residential and business?   
Where do you draw the line between residential and business usage?   
What pricing pressure does this put on your lower speed plans?
Can your infrastructure and oversubscription deliver to multiple gigabit 
customers at peak times?

Mark


> On Feb 19, 2018, at 7:18 AM, David Jones  wrote:
> 
> Lets say you have a 20GB+ Backbone, FTTx or a good working 60ghz radio 
> solution that can get gigabit to the premises. Why would you not offer a 
> gigabit package?
> 
> I see several companies that have the capability of getting gigabit to the 
> customers but not ever offering gigabit... I see 50,100,150, 200 but not 
> more. What is the business reason for not offering a gig when you can on the 
> infrastructure? 
> 
> -- 
> David Jones
> NGL Connection
> 307-288-5491 ext 702
> ___
> Wireless mailing list
> Wireless@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Why is GoPro sponsoring this irresponsable Crap?

[Jay Weekley]

Be a hero! Is it even possible the tower owner gave them permission to 
do that?

Gino Villarini wrote:
> Yea… let see the video when he hits the guy wire and gets beheaded !
>
>
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> President
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> www.aeronetpr.com
> @aeronetpr
>
>
>
> From: Zach Mann mailto:zma...@gmail.com>>
> Reply-To: WISPA General List  <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>>
> Date: Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 12:18 PM
> To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org>>
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why is GoPro sponsoring this irresponsable Crap?
>
> BASE jumping Gino :)
>
> On Saturday, January 10, 2015, Gino Villarini  <mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>> wrote:
>
> GoPro: 9 Frontflips Off A Tower
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3q3ZC5fcnY>
>
>
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> President
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> www.aeronetpr.com <http://www.aeronetpr.com>
> @aeronetpr
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Wireless mailing list
> Wireless@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

___
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Wireless@wispa.org
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Re: [WISPA] Why is GoPro sponsoring this irresponsable Crap?

[Gino Villarini]

Yea… let see the video when he hits the guy wire and gets beheaded !



Gino A. Villarini
President
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
www.aeronetpr.com
@aeronetpr



From: Zach Mann mailto:zma...@gmail.com>>
Reply-To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org>>
Date: Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 12:18 PM
To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org>>
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why is GoPro sponsoring this irresponsable Crap?

BASE jumping Gino :)

On Saturday, January 10, 2015, Gino Villarini 
mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>> wrote:
GoPro: 9 Frontflips Off A Tower<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3q3ZC5fcnY>



Gino A. Villarini
President
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
www.aeronetpr.com<http://www.aeronetpr.com>
@aeronetpr


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Wireless@wispa.org
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Re: [WISPA] Why is GoPro sponsoring this irresponsable Crap?

[Zach Mann]

BASE jumping Gino :)

On Saturday, January 10, 2015, Gino Villarini  wrote:

>   GoPro: 9 Frontflips Off A Tower
> 
>
>
>
>  Gino A. Villarini
> President
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> www.aeronetpr.com
> @aeronetpr
>
>
>
___
Wireless mailing list
Wireless@wispa.org
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Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Greg]

This topic got quite a bit off from Marlon's original post, but getting back
to that, what I've done more than once with the local cable company is what
I guess would fit in the category of "social engineering", that is I imitate
what I've heard their techs say when they get stumped and call in to their
own tech support. When the person on the other end of their tech support
answers I say "level two please" with an air of confidence and impatience. I
get right through to someone who knows their ascii from their elbow.

Greg

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 1:34 PM, RickG  wrote:

> Time Warner does offer an SLA on their "Business Class". It's worked in our
> favor the three time its gone down in the 6 months that its been installed!
> Considering that, our wireless has been running five 9s to our business
> customers who chose us over the wired connections options. -RickG
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Stuart Pierce  wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With
> that
> > though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years.
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Mike Hammett" 
> > Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> > Date:  Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600
> >
> > >I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber.
> > >
> > >
> > >-
> > >Mike Hammett
> > >Intelligent Computing Solutions
> > >http://www.ics-il.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >From: "Tom DeReggi" 
> > >Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM
> > >To: "WISPA General List" 
> > >Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to
> us
> > >
> > >> Agreed, Brett.
> > >>
> > >> I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an
> outage,
> > >> and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that.
> > >> If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is "you didn't buy a
> > >> service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if
> > you
> > >> are down for a week, read the small print.".
> > >> And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? "Oh I used a low
> cost
> > >> Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the
> > >> Cable cos?"
> > >>
> > >> Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any
> > other
> > >> technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything
> other
> > >> than Wireless for connectivity to a tower?
> > >>
> > >> Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive
> > than
> > >> a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to
> negotiate
> > >> lower roof right fees.
> > >>
> > >> Tom DeReggi
> > >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> > >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  - Original Message -
> > >>  From: Bret Clark
> > >>  To: WISPA General List
> > >>  Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM
> > >>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors
> to
> > us
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our
> > towers.
> > >> We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet
> > >> links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way
> > if
> > >> there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without
> > >> getting the run around from a telco.
> > >>
> > >>  I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one
> thing
> > >> telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their
> > >> problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their
> > problem
> > >> and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with!
> > >>
> > >>  Bret
> > >>
> > >>  Tom Sharples wrote:
> > >> I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it
> here
> > >> (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The "fix"
> > was
>

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[RickG]

Time Warner does offer an SLA on their "Business Class". It's worked in our
favor the three time its gone down in the 6 months that its been installed!
Considering that, our wireless has been running five 9s to our business
customers who chose us over the wired connections options. -RickG


On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Stuart Pierce  wrote:

> I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With that
> though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years.
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mike Hammett" 
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600
>
> >I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber.
> >
> >
> >-
> >Mike Hammett
> >Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >http://www.ics-il.com
> >
> >
> >
> >--------------
> >From: "Tom DeReggi" 
> >Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM
> >To: "WISPA General List" 
> >Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
> >
> >> Agreed, Brett.
> >>
> >> I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage,
> >> and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that.
> >> If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is "you didn't buy a
> >> service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if
> you
> >> are down for a week, read the small print.".
> >> And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? "Oh I used a low cost
> >> Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the
> >> Cable cos?"
> >>
> >> Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any
> other
> >> technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other
> >> than Wireless for connectivity to a tower?
> >>
> >> Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive
> than
> >> a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate
> >> lower roof right fees.
> >>
> >> Tom DeReggi
> >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
> >>
> >>
> >>  - Original Message -
> >>  From: Bret Clark
> >>  To: WISPA General List
> >>  Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM
> >>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to
> us
> >>
> >>
> >>  Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our
> towers.
> >> We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet
> >> links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way
> if
> >> there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without
> >> getting the run around from a telco.
> >>
> >>  I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing
> >> telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their
> >> problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their
> problem
> >> and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with!
> >>
> >>  Bret
> >>
> >>  Tom Sharples wrote:
> >> I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here
> >> (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The "fix"
> was
> >> that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to
> >> power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went
> on
> >> for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That
> >> has
> >> proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since.
> >>
> >> Tom S.
> >>
> >>
> >> - Original Message -
> >> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
> >> To: "WISPA General List" 
> >> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM
> >> Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
> >>
> >>
> >>  I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
> >>
> >> Can't get to the main router at that local.
> >>
> >> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
> >> phone number for tech support.
> >>
> >> IF there is

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Mike Hammett]

I am planning to have access to fiber throughout an area that's probably 3x 
to 4x my current coverage area.  I'll build my network around that fiber. 
However, I will retain wireless PtP links for redundancy.  That cuts down on 
the need to consume valuable spectrum for primary backhaul links.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Tom DeReggi" 
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:48 AM
To: ; "WISPA General List" 

Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

> Let me clarify.
>
> I'm referring to Metro-E deployment.
> I'm not refering to the physical medium "glass filled wire", which of 
> course
> has a huge long reliable life.
>
> Metro-E typically runs from commercial building to commercial building. 
> Each
> Hop is a potential failure point.
> Metro-E tends to be a Sequential or In-Series deployment, where there are
> many potential failure points between Start and End Point of a desired 
> link.
> Most Metro-E Deployments whether Layer3 or Layer2,  tend to terminate
> everything at the end of the line at a central place, so there is often 
> much
> shared infrastructure on the way to the far end.infrastructure.
> The fact that Fiber can extend in 20-40 mile incrememnts without power is
> irrelevent when its most cost viable for Metro-E providers to stop at each
> building along the path on the way.
>
> What Fiber Providers cant control (no better than us), is the rules and
> decissions Building Owners need to make to maintain their building and
> power.  For example, recently, there was a water leak in a building, the
> Building protocol was Turn off power to the electrical rooms in the 
> building
> until leak fixed.  The building owner could care less that the Fiber
> infrastructure would be turned off, becaue they had a bigger 
> responsibility
> to the maintenance and safety of their Half-Billion dollar commercial 
> office
> building. So, Fiber routers got powered off and service went down.  These
> type things happen ALL the time.  At one building, it might only happen 
> 2-3
> times over 5 years, but multiply that times 20 buildings in-line path, and
> that becomes 40-60 outages in 5 years.
>
> With Wireless PTP, we tend to go longer distances before a hop is 
> incurred,
> and minimizing the number of buildings in-line that could have an effect 
> on
> whether we had power or not to our gear.
>
> If we compare RF to Light, the difference in uptiem by technology isavery
> insignificant amount even if Fiber better. But if we compare deployment 
> its
> not so insignificant to compare wireless with 2-3 buildings inline to 
> fiber
> 10-20 buildings inline.
>
> The fact is, fiber does have the ability to deploy redundant technology, 
> but
> so does Wireless. And Fiber carriers bypass redundancy in many cases for 
> the
> same reasons Wireless carriers do, to reduce cost, add simplicity for
> maintenance, and capacity planning/control.  What you see happening is 
> Fiber
> carriers using one fiber strand, and then putting EVERYTHING on that one
> strand of Fiber. They do this because they often dont own the fiber, and
> have to buy Dark Fiber, and they pay per strand. Fiber deployments are not
> automatically redundant as much as people think, when considering all
> networking components. For example, LAyer2, Layer3, OSPF, and BGP all 
> have
> to function both waysacross all redundant paths for all customers.
>
> When there are one or two hops inline with Wireless, its so much easier 
> and
> less disruptive to verify and test that redundancy doesactually work in a
> failure situatuation. With Fiber carriers it is to risky to test redundant
> configs because to many people are sharing the infrastructure and it 
> crosses
> so many hops. The Fiber carriers make config mistakes. And when they share
> so much infrastructure, its easy to harm another customer's config, when
> configuring new customers.
>
> I can not give national data for all carriers deployment. BUT from our
> experience on our network the most reliable network components are our
> wireless PTP links. The largest cause is Power. One of the reasons we did
> not increase the uptime of our wireless towers fed by fiber was that it 
> did
> no good to have power systems that gave uptimes larger than the uptime
> delivered by our fiber carrier's power systems.  The truth is batteries
> fail, and nobody knows it until a failure occurs, and the 4 hour uptimes
> doesn't occur. The more buildings inline, the more chances one of the
> buildings inline is effected by a power outage somewhere.

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Richey]

Fiber doesn't suffer from interference or have a low number of frequencies
you can use at one location. 

Richey

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Stuart Pierce
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:16 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With that
though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years.

-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600

>I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber.
>
>
>-
>Mike Hammett
>Intelligent Computing Solutions
>http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>--
>From: "Tom DeReggi" 
>Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM
>To: "WISPA General List" 
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to 
>us
>
>> Agreed, Brett.
>>
>> I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an 
>> outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after
that.
>> If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is "you didn't buy 
>> a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less 
>> if you are down for a week, read the small print.".
>> And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? "Oh I used a low 
>> cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service 
>> than the Cable cos?"
>>
>> Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any 
>> other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use 
>> anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower?
>>
>> Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive 
>> than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to 
>> negotiate lower roof right fees.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>>  - Original Message -
>>  From: Bret Clark
>>  To: WISPA General List
>>  Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors 
>> to us
>>
>>
>>  Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our
towers. 
>> We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet 
>> links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That 
>> way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it 
>> without getting the run around from a telco.
>>
>>  I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one 
>> thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was 
>> never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it 
>> was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with!
>>
>>  Bret
>>
>>  Tom Sharples wrote:
>> I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it 
>> here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The 
>> "fix" was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out 
>> a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood 
>> dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast 
>> business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I 
>> haven't looked back since.
>>
>> Tom S.
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM
>> Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
>>
>>
>>  I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
>>
>> Can't get to the main router at that local.
>>
>> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go 
>> find a phone number for tech support.
>>
>> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web 
>> site, I couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
>>
>> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
>> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an 
>> error.  So I tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what 
>> the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Tom DeReggi]

The thing is there are cases or palces where Wireless cant be made reliable 
for a specific situations that limit that location. People will remember 
those rare cases and associate them with Wireless in general,
 without understanding that taht is a different situation and not the norm. 
People blaim Wireless or the wireless provider for a lot, but its rarely the 
Wireless's fault.

You'd also be surprised how often Sonet Rings wont properly route the other 
direction around the ring, when a failure occurs, based on the type of 
failure. The Fiber Ring is a physical redundancy method, but it doesn't mean 
that the intelligence part over top it will properly direct the traffic.

Its also hard to get a fiber carrier to truthfully disclose the full inner 
workings of their network, for the buyer to verify a claimed redundant path 
will truly offer full redundancy.
The only way to know for sure, and guarantee it wont change over time, is to 
do it yourself, or work with someone small enough who is not afraid to show 
the proof.

For example, for some of my customers, I'll map out hop per hop the path 
their data will go both primary and backup path.  I'm not saying I give 
redunancy ever, because there are many places my network is not redundant. 
But I could built it redundant and PROVE IT, when customers were willing to 
pay for that.

For Fiber,. If I want guaranteed redundant Fiber transport paths, they will 
charge me for two circuits, double the price. And I could get better 
diversity if I jsut deployed two wireless links to diverse paths.

So To compare reliabilty of Wireless to Fiber, its really only an apples to 
apples comparison if we compare a single wireless link to a  non-redundant 
single fiber path.

For example, a Wireless ring could jsut as equally be created to compare 
against a Sonet ring.

At the end of the day, the only thing Fiber gives us is more capacity when 
that capacity is actually needed.
Unless of course, LOS cant be achieved, or distance to long for the 
technology.

But the worst travisty in public perception is that the public often 
associates Wireless with the lowest technology capabilty. Fixed PTP wireless 
should NOT be bundled into the same category as PtMP Wifi.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Patrick Shoemaker" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


> Exactly. The terms "wireless" and "fiber" are too broad to make any
> valid reliability comparison without more specifics.
>
> Comparing a licensed point to point microwave system with redundant
> paths, spatial diversity, standby power, and a tower structure rated to
> 150 MPH to an aerial fiber strand running through the woods in northeast
> ice storm territory would lead one to believe that wireless is the more
> reliable technology.
>
> Comparing a 2.4 GHz 802.11 link with grid antennas shooting some trees
> in icy territory to a SONET ring connecting two metro area datacenters
> would lead one to believe that fiber is the more reliable technology.
>
> Unfortunately, this distinction is not made by the general public, and
> it makes the sales process for business grade fixed wireless services
> more difficult.
>
> Patrick Shoemaker
> Vector Data Systems LLC
> shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com
> office: (301) 358-1690 x36
> http://www.vectordatasystems.com
>
>
> Bret Clark wrote:
>> Brian Webster wrote:
>>> Fiber deployments have been commonplace between
>>> telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about 
>>> reliability
>>> issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't 
>>> happen
>>> but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they 
>>> have
>>> some of the better reliability figures over any technology.
>>>
>>
>> Sure, because they are running a SONET network and fiber breaks are
>> rather common, but when you have a secondary path then you don't hear
>> about it. Build a wireless infrastructure the same way with redundancy
>> and you'll have the same uptime.
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> ---

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Tom DeReggi]

my 
Trango 5830s, I had PTP links that never had a hickup for 5 years.

The bottom line is, IF I can get a wireless link between two points, and the 
capacity I need does not exceed capabilty of Wireless, I will ALWAYS choose 
Wireless for better uptime.

Fiber is good when the capacity exceeds wireless's. Fiber is good if it has 
a shorter number of Hops than Wireless does. Wireless backhaul tends to 
develop undesirable packetloss if the number of hops get to large.  We try 
to keep our Core Wireless transport/backhaul HOPs under 3.  But if 
Line-of-sight can be acheived, that gives a 30-60 mile radius that can best 
be served with Wireless backhaul for small providers, that dont expect huge 
capacities. A 300mbps wireless backhaul is more capacity than most small 
WISPs ever need, to achieve good ROI..

Note that I did not say "quality". I said "Reliabilty", meaning uptime and 
repair time.
Wireless is also less expensive, I have never once seen a fiber carrier 
quote a lower cost per mb than a Wireless provider's lease payment to build 
their own, IF quote was for something like a tower site, where there were 
not numerous fiber carriers competing to that site location.

IF I could get Dark Fiber cariers to sell me Dark Fiber as cheap as Metro E, 
with dedicated uninhibited paths dedicated to me extending 20 miles a hop, I 
could build Fiber to be more reliable than wireless, But its not cost 
effective to buy Dark Fiber in most cases. They want 5x more for Dark Fiber 
because of the opportunity cost.  Dark Fiber is often priced to be not worth 
it unless pushing 10GB or more.

As a matter of fact, IF I did a FTTH deployment, I'd feel more comfortable 
feeding it with a 300mb Wireless link, for better uptime.  Because I'd know 
it would be more than enough capacity considering oversubscription.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Webster" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


> Tom,
> When you make the claim that wireless has more uptime than fiber, where do
> you base those facts from and what types of fiber deployments are you
> comparing it to? While I believe wireless is a great thing, one has to
> wonder why a company who's name was MCI (Microwave Communications
> Incorporated) eventually switched everything to fiber? I helped buy a 
> bunch
> of their old microwave tower sites after they were decommissioned. They
> built them for capacity and did everything right. It just seems that
> eventually the larger WISP's will need to consider the path that MCI took
> over time and wonder if they won't evolve along a similar path. Now their
> failure was not due to their choice of fiber over wireless and that's
> another story altogether. Fiber deployments have been commonplace between
> telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability
> issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen
> but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they 
> have
> some of the better reliability figures over any technology.
>
>
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:40 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to
> us
>
>
> Agreed, Brett.
>
> I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, 
> and
> then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that.
> If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is "you didn't buy a
> service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you
> are down for a week, read the small print.".
> And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? "Oh I used a low cost
> Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the 
> Cable
> cos?"
>
> Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other
> technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other 
> than
> Wireless for connectivity to a tower?
>
> Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than 
> a
> single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate 
> lower
> roof right fees.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
>  - Original Message -
>  From: Bret Clark
>  To: WISPA General List
>  Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM
>  Subject: Re: [WIS

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Brad Belton]

Agreed, Patrick.

As a business only provider many of our customers that bring in a
10-50-100Mbps or higher microwave connection in from us are doing so to
complement their existing fiber connection(s).  

As time progresses some of those customers end up favoring our microwave
connection over their fiber connection.  Sometimes it's because we're better
peered and have fewer "hops" or lower latency other times it's simply
because we have fewer points of failure and therefore our availability is
higher.

It all comes back to those three ever important sticking points:  Location -
Location - Location

Best,


Brad
 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick Shoemaker
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

Exactly. The terms "wireless" and "fiber" are too broad to make any 
valid reliability comparison without more specifics.

Comparing a licensed point to point microwave system with redundant 
paths, spatial diversity, standby power, and a tower structure rated to 
150 MPH to an aerial fiber strand running through the woods in northeast 
ice storm territory would lead one to believe that wireless is the more 
reliable technology.

Comparing a 2.4 GHz 802.11 link with grid antennas shooting some trees 
in icy territory to a SONET ring connecting two metro area datacenters 
would lead one to believe that fiber is the more reliable technology.

Unfortunately, this distinction is not made by the general public, and 
it makes the sales process for business grade fixed wireless services 
more difficult.

Patrick Shoemaker
Vector Data Systems LLC
shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com
office: (301) 358-1690 x36
http://www.vectordatasystems.com


Bret Clark wrote:
> Brian Webster wrote:
>> Fiber deployments have been commonplace between
>> telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability
>> issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't
happen
>> but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they
have
>> some of the better reliability figures over any technology.
>>   
> 
> Sure, because they are running a SONET network and fiber breaks are 
> rather common, but when you have a secondary path then you don't hear 
> about it. Build a wireless infrastructure the same way with redundancy 
> and you'll have the same uptime.
> 
> 
>


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> http://signup.wispa.org/
>


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> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
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> 
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Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Patrick Shoemaker]

Exactly. The terms "wireless" and "fiber" are too broad to make any 
valid reliability comparison without more specifics.

Comparing a licensed point to point microwave system with redundant 
paths, spatial diversity, standby power, and a tower structure rated to 
150 MPH to an aerial fiber strand running through the woods in northeast 
ice storm territory would lead one to believe that wireless is the more 
reliable technology.

Comparing a 2.4 GHz 802.11 link with grid antennas shooting some trees 
in icy territory to a SONET ring connecting two metro area datacenters 
would lead one to believe that fiber is the more reliable technology.

Unfortunately, this distinction is not made by the general public, and 
it makes the sales process for business grade fixed wireless services 
more difficult.

Patrick Shoemaker
Vector Data Systems LLC
shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com
office: (301) 358-1690 x36
http://www.vectordatasystems.com


Bret Clark wrote:
> Brian Webster wrote:
>> Fiber deployments have been commonplace between
>> telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability
>> issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen
>> but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they have
>> some of the better reliability figures over any technology.
>>   
> 
> Sure, because they are running a SONET network and fiber breaks are 
> rather common, but when you have a secondary path then you don't hear 
> about it. Build a wireless infrastructure the same way with redundancy 
> and you'll have the same uptime.
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> 
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



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Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Bret Clark]

Brian Webster wrote:
> Fiber deployments have been commonplace between
> telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability
> issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen
> but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they have
> some of the better reliability figures over any technology.
>   

Sure, because they are running a SONET network and fiber breaks are 
rather common, but when you have a secondary path then you don't hear 
about it. Build a wireless infrastructure the same way with redundancy 
and you'll have the same uptime.



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Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Bret Clark]

I would agree in a heartbeat...we've actually won customers because of
outages with DS3's and T1's that were run on fiber.  When the
historical ice storm came through New England just over a year ago, we
had 100% uptime with our infrastructure while Fairpoint and Comcast was
down all over the place including their fiber runs. 

Stuart Pierce wrote:

  I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With that though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years.

-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600

  
  
I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Tom DeReggi" 
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us



  Agreed, Brett.

I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, 
and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that.
If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is "you didn't buy a 
service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you 
are down for a week, read the small print.".
And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? "Oh I used a low cost 
Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the 
Cable cos?"

Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other 
technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other 
than Wireless for connectivity to a tower?

Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than 
a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate 
lower roof right fees.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message ----- 
 From: Bret Clark
 To: WISPA General List
 Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


 Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. 
We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet 
links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if 
there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without 
getting the run around from a telco.

 I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing 
telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their 
problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem 
and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with!

 Bret

 Tom Sharples wrote:
I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here
(Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The "fix" was
that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to
power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on
for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That 
has
proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since.

Tom S.


- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


 I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.

Can't get to the main router at that local.

So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
phone number for tech support.

IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.

Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error.  So
I
tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to
allow
any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where
they
usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
print, but then again, I shouldn't have to

Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site
doesn't
have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually came
up
and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the tech support
guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not.  ug

So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.

I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad
though)
and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business
account.

Call

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Chuck Hogg]

Our backbone fiber has been down 2-3 times over 3 years.  One time was
so that they could upgrade the Fiber Switches, and the other times we
were only down a minute or two.

Regards,
Chuck Hogg
Shelby Broadband
502-722-9292
ch...@shelbybb.com
http://www.shelbybb.com


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Stuart Pierce
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:16 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to
us

I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With
that though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years.

-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600

>I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber.
>
>
>-
>Mike Hammett
>Intelligent Computing Solutions
>http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>--
>From: "Tom DeReggi" 
>Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM
>To: "WISPA General List" 
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to
us
>
>> Agreed, Brett.
>>
>> I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an
outage, 
>> and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that.
>> If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is "you didn't buy
a 
>> service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if
you 
>> are down for a week, read the small print.".
>> And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? "Oh I used a low
cost 
>> Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than
the 
>> Cable cos?"
>>
>> Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any
other 
>> technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything
other 
>> than Wireless for connectivity to a tower?
>>
>> Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive
than 
>> a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to
negotiate 
>> lower roof right fees.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>>  - Original Message - 
>>  From: Bret Clark
>>  To: WISPA General List
>>  Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors
to us
>>
>>
>>  Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our
towers. 
>> We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet

>> links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That
way if 
>> there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it
without 
>> getting the run around from a telco.
>>
>>  I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one
thing 
>> telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never
their 
>> problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their
problem 
>> and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with!
>>
>>  Bret
>>
>>  Tom Sharples wrote:
>> I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it
here
>> (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The
"fix" was
>> that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to
>> power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This
went on
>> for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable.
That 
>> has
>> proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since.
>>
>> Tom S.
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM
>> Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
>>
>>
>>  I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
>>
>> Can't get to the main router at that local.
>>
>> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go
find a
>> phone number for tech support.
>>
>> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web
site, I
>> couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
>>
>> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip
code.
>> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an
error.  So
>> I
>>

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Brian Webster]

Tom,
When you make the claim that wireless has more uptime than fiber, where 
do
you base those facts from and what types of fiber deployments are you
comparing it to? While I believe wireless is a great thing, one has to
wonder why a company who's name was MCI (Microwave Communications
Incorporated) eventually switched everything to fiber? I helped buy a bunch
of their old microwave tower sites after they were decommissioned. They
built them for capacity and did everything right. It just seems that
eventually the larger WISP's will need to consider the path that MCI took
over time and wonder if they won't evolve along a similar path. Now their
failure was not due to their choice of fiber over wireless and that's
another story altogether. Fiber deployments have been commonplace between
telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability
issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen
but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they have
some of the better reliability figures over any technology.



Thank You,
Brian Webster


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:40 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to
us


Agreed, Brett.

I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and
then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that.
If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is "you didn't buy a
service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you
are down for a week, read the small print.".
And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? "Oh I used a low cost
Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable
cos?"

Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other
technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than
Wireless for connectivity to a tower?

Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a
single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower
roof right fees.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message -
  From: Bret Clark
  To: WISPA General List
  Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


  Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers.
We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links
are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is
a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the
run around from a telco.

  I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing
telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their
problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem
and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with!

  Bret

  Tom Sharples wrote:
I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here
(Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The "fix" was
that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to
power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on
for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has
proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since.

Tom S.


- Original Message -
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


  I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.

Can't get to the main router at that local.

So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
phone number for tech support.

IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.

Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error.  So
I
tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to
allow
any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where
they
usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
print, but then again, I shouldn't have to

Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site
doesn't
have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually came
up
and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the te

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Stuart Pierce]

I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With that 
though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years.

-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Hammett" 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600

>I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber.
>
>
>-
>Mike Hammett
>Intelligent Computing Solutions
>http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
>--
>From: "Tom DeReggi" 
>Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM
>To: "WISPA General List" 
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
>
>> Agreed, Brett.
>>
>> I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, 
>> and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that.
>> If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is "you didn't buy a 
>> service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you 
>> are down for a week, read the small print.".
>> And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? "Oh I used a low cost 
>> Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the 
>> Cable cos?"
>>
>> Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other 
>> technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other 
>> than Wireless for connectivity to a tower?
>>
>> Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than 
>> a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate 
>> lower roof right fees.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>>  - Original Message - 
>>  From: Bret Clark
>>  To: WISPA General List
>>  Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
>>
>>
>>  Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. 
>> We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet 
>> links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if 
>> there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without 
>> getting the run around from a telco.
>>
>>  I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing 
>> telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their 
>> problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem 
>> and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with!
>>
>>  Bret
>>
>>  Tom Sharples wrote:
>> I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here
>> (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The "fix" was
>> that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to
>> power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on
>> for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That 
>> has
>> proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since.
>>
>> Tom S.
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM
>> Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
>>
>>
>>  I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
>>
>> Can't get to the main router at that local.
>>
>> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
>> phone number for tech support.
>>
>> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
>> couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
>>
>> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
>> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error.  So
>> I
>> tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
>> said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to
>> allow
>> any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where
>> they
>> usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
>> print, but then again, I shouldn't have to
>>
>> Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site
>> doesn't
>> have anyt

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Mike Hammett]

I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Tom DeReggi" 
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

> Agreed, Brett.
>
> I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, 
> and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that.
> If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is "you didn't buy a 
> service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you 
> are down for a week, read the small print.".
> And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? "Oh I used a low cost 
> Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the 
> Cable cos?"
>
> Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other 
> technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other 
> than Wireless for connectivity to a tower?
>
> Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than 
> a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate 
> lower roof right fees.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
>  - Original Message - 
>  From: Bret Clark
>  To: WISPA General List
>  Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM
>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
>
>
>  Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. 
> We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet 
> links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if 
> there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without 
> getting the run around from a telco.
>
>  I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing 
> telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their 
> problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem 
> and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with!
>
>  Bret
>
>  Tom Sharples wrote:
> I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here
> (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The "fix" was
> that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to
> power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on
> for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That 
> has
> proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since.
>
> Tom S.
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
>
>
>  I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
>
> Can't get to the main router at that local.
>
> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
> phone number for tech support.
>
> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
> couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
>
> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error.  So
> I
> tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
> said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to
> allow
> any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where
> they
> usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
> print, but then again, I shouldn't have to
>
> Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site
> doesn't
> have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually came
> up
> and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the tech support
> guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not.  ug
>
> So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.
>
> I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad
> though)
> and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business
> account.
>
> Called the next number.  Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still
> only
> a few minutes.  We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff.
> Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on
> on
> the 

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Tom DeReggi]

Agreed, Brett.

I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and 
then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that.
If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is "you didn't buy a service 
with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for 
a week, read the small print.".
And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? "Oh I used a low cost Cable 
service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos?"

Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other 
technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than 
Wireless for connectivity to a tower?

Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a 
single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower 
roof right fees.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message - 
  From: Bret Clark 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


  Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We 
are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are 
wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a 
problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run 
around from a telco.

  I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing 
telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem 
until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of 
the time is was their problem to begin with! 

  Bret

  Tom Sharples wrote: 
I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here 
(Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The "fix" was 
that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to 
power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on 
for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has 
proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since.

Tom S.


- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


  I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.

Can't get to the main router at that local.

So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
phone number for tech support.

IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.

Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error.  So 
I
tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to 
allow
any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where 
they
usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
print, but then again, I shouldn't have to

Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site 
doesn't
have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually came 
up
and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the tech support
guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not.  ug

So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.

I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad 
though)
and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business 
account.

Called the next number.  Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still 
only
a few minutes.  We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff.
Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on 
on
the modem.  "Um, I'm an hour and a half form there."  "Well, sir, I'm 
unable
help you unless someone is on at the site."

Sigh.  The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for
months yet.

The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or 
not.
It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine.  This is a
HUGE telco!  Ug.

They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year
for.  Probably even more than that.  Amazing.

Have a great day, I know I will.
marlon




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/
--

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Marlon K. Schafer]

A reboot of all hardware at the site fixed the problem.  I'm guessing that a 
power outage (as reported by the customers) caused something to go haywire.

Looks like I have to install another auto reboot device.

Normally these folks are home.  This is the first year they've flown south.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Jayson Baker" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


> So lie to them, and tell them you're standing there and the DSL light is
> blinking.  Or whatever they want to hear.
> That person is probably a $10/hr individual paid to follow a flow chart, 
> and
> doesn't know what to do if your answers don't fall in-line with that 
> chart.
> I've done this many times.  Even just the other day I "chatted" with Dell
> tech support and said "I need a new hard drive, it's making scraping and
> clunking noises" in less than 5 minutes I had a new hard drive on the way,
> and less than 24 hours later it was installed in the machine.  Had I told
> them what was really going on, I'd of been working with them for an hour 
> via
> chat running a chkdsk and all sorts of other diagnostic tools.  In all
> actuality, the thing was bad... I was just skipping all the mundane steps
> they are supposed to follow, in order to determine something I already 
> knew.
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Marlon K. Schafer 
> wrote:
>
>> I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
>>
>> Can't get to the main router at that local.
>>
>> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
>> phone number for tech support.
>>
>> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
>> couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
>>
>> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
>> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error. 
>> So
>> I
>> tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
>> said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to 
>> allow
>> any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where
>> they
>> usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
>> print, but then again, I shouldn't have to
>>
>> Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site
>> doesn't
>> have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually came
>> up
>> and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the tech support
>> guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not.  ug
>>
>> So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.
>>
>> I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad 
>> though)
>> and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business 
>> account.
>>
>> Called the next number.  Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still 
>> only
>> a few minutes.  We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff.
>> Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on 
>> on
>> the modem.  "Um, I'm an hour and a half form there."  "Well, sir, I'm
>> unable
>> help you unless someone is on at the site."
>>
>> Sigh.  The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for
>> months yet.
>>
>> The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or
>> not.
>> It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine.  This is a
>> HUGE telco!  Ug.
>>
>> They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per 
>> year
>> for.  Probably even more than that.  Amazing.
>>
>> Have a great day, I know I will.
>> marlon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Josh Luthman]

At least you have it figured out.  You could be stuck with the customer
unplugging your equipment leaving you no access while they go on a 2 weeks
vacation...

I think no one here could possibly disagree with you, though.  The people on
the other end of those phone calls cause brain damage.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
--- Albert Einstein


On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Marlon K. Schafer 
wrote:

> I have a key to the house.
>
> It's just 1.5 hours away.
>
> The point of the whole story is crappy, ignorant support levels.
>
> marlon
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Josh Luthman" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
>
>
> >I take it you never took our advice to have the guts in a NEMA box
> > outside?  If you did you can at least get it working yourself...
> >
> > On 1/10/10, Marlon K. Schafer  wrote:
> >> I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
> >>
> >> Can't get to the main router at that local.
> >>
> >> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
> >> phone number for tech support.
> >>
> >> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site,
> I
> >> couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
> >>
> >> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip
> code.
> >> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error.
> >> So I
> >> tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
> >> said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to
> >> allow
> >> any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where
> >> they
> >> usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
> >> print, but then again, I shouldn't have to
> >>
> >> Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site
> >> doesn't
> >> have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually
> came
> >> up
> >> and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the tech
> support
> >> guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not.  ug
> >>
> >> So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.
> >>
> >> I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad
> >> though)
> >> and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business
> >> account.
> >>
> >> Called the next number.  Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still
> >> only
> >> a few minutes.  We quickly got through all of the who are you type
> stuff.
> >> Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on
> >> on
> >> the modem.  "Um, I'm an hour and a half form there."  "Well, sir, I'm
> >> unable
> >> help you unless someone is on at the site."
> >>
> >> Sigh.  The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for
> >> months yet.
> >>
> >> The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or
> >> not.
> >> It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine.  This is a
> >> HUGE telco!  Ug.
> >>
> >> They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per
> >> year
> >> for.  Probably even more than that.  Amazing.
> >>
> >> Have a great day, I know I will.
> >> marlon
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>
> 
> >>
> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>
> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>
> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Josh Luthman
> > Office: 937-552-2340
> > Direct: 937-552-2343
> > 1100 Wayne St
> > Suite 1337
> > Troy, OH 45373
> >

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Marlon K. Schafer]

I have a key to the house.

It's just 1.5 hours away.

The point of the whole story is crappy, ignorant support levels.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


>I take it you never took our advice to have the guts in a NEMA box
> outside?  If you did you can at least get it working yourself...
>
> On 1/10/10, Marlon K. Schafer  wrote:
>> I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
>>
>> Can't get to the main router at that local.
>>
>> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
>> phone number for tech support.
>>
>> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
>> couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
>>
>> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
>> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error. 
>> So I
>> tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
>> said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to 
>> allow
>> any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where 
>> they
>> usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
>> print, but then again, I shouldn't have to
>>
>> Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site 
>> doesn't
>> have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually came 
>> up
>> and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the tech support
>> guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not.  ug
>>
>> So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.
>>
>> I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad 
>> though)
>> and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business 
>> account.
>>
>> Called the next number.  Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still 
>> only
>> a few minutes.  We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff.
>> Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on 
>> on
>> the modem.  "Um, I'm an hour and a half form there."  "Well, sir, I'm 
>> unable
>> help you unless someone is on at the site."
>>
>> Sigh.  The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for
>> months yet.
>>
>> The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or 
>> not.
>> It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine.  This is a
>> HUGE telco!  Ug.
>>
>> They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per 
>> year
>> for.  Probably even more than that.  Amazing.
>>
>> Have a great day, I know I will.
>> marlon
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
> --- Albert Einstein
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Jonathan Schmidt]

We're rural enough that no utility pole is within 10 degrees of vertical.

Both TWC cable and AT&T wires swing on those poles and whistle in the
wind.

I have the cheapest DSL on the cheapest wireline just as a backup
(auto-failover on an old Nortel router) to RoadRunner.

I complained to AT&T for 8 years (then SBC) about the crackling static on
the wire line that caused the DSL router to recycle every 10 minutes and
FAXes to look like the printer needed an ink refill.  

I called and called, scheduled on-site folks, and nothing.  Finally, an
AT&T truck was working on the neighbor's phone and I asked the guy "Excuse
me, sir, but I have had a problem for 8 years...could you just walk over
here and put your handset on my wire and listen?"  He said "That's awful"
and when I asked for his name to thank him for the out-of-duty assistance,
he gave it to me.  The next day it was fixed.

My last TWC fix was accomplished the same way...asking a truck in the
neighborhood to "test my line" as a favor.  He, however, found a
pole-mounted amplifier that had an intermittently oscillating AGC that
fixed all our neighborhood problems.  

I don't know what people do who aren't slightly technical and a bit
aggressive.  On the other hand, I don't know how the TWC and AT&T people
keep this old outdoor plant working, either.

. . . J o n a t h a n

 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

When it's a DSL or cable connection I typically say I rebooted the modem
and my PC is plugged into it.

On 1/10/10, Jayson Baker  wrote:
> So lie to them, and tell them you're standing there and the DSL light 
> is blinking.  Or whatever they want to hear.
> That person is probably a $10/hr individual paid to follow a flow 
> chart, and doesn't know what to do if your answers don't fall in-line
with that chart.
> I've done this many times.  Even just the other day I "chatted" with 
> Dell tech support and said "I need a new hard drive, it's making 
> scraping and clunking noises" in less than 5 minutes I had a new hard 
> drive on the way, and less than 24 hours later it was installed in the 
> machine.  Had I told them what was really going on, I'd of been 
> working with them for an hour via chat running a chkdsk and all sorts 
> of other diagnostic tools.  In all actuality, the thing was bad... I 
> was just skipping all the mundane steps they are supposed to follow, in
order to determine something I already knew.
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Marlon K. Schafer
> wrote:
>
>> I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
>>
>> Can't get to the main router at that local.
>>
>> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go 
>> find a phone number for tech support.
>>
>> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web 
>> site, I couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
>>
>> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip
code.
>> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an 
>> error.  So I tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what 
>> the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not 
>> all of them.  Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make 
>> people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all 
>> of them.  My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I 
>> shouldn't have to
>>
>> Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site 
>> doesn't have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part 
>> eventually came up and a tech was on the line.  We quickly 
>> established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was 
>> a dsl connection or not.  ug
>>
>> So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.
>>
>> I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad
>> though)
>> and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business 
>> account.
>>
>> Called the next number.  Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but 
>> still only a few minutes.  We quickly got through all of the who are 
>> you type stuff.
>> Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were 
>> on on the modem.  "Um, I'm an hour and a half form there."  "Well, 
>> sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on

Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Josh Luthman]

When it's a DSL or cable connection I typically say I rebooted the
modem and my PC is plugged into it.

On 1/10/10, Jayson Baker  wrote:
> So lie to them, and tell them you're standing there and the DSL light is
> blinking.  Or whatever they want to hear.
> That person is probably a $10/hr individual paid to follow a flow chart, and
> doesn't know what to do if your answers don't fall in-line with that chart.
> I've done this many times.  Even just the other day I "chatted" with Dell
> tech support and said "I need a new hard drive, it's making scraping and
> clunking noises" in less than 5 minutes I had a new hard drive on the way,
> and less than 24 hours later it was installed in the machine.  Had I told
> them what was really going on, I'd of been working with them for an hour via
> chat running a chkdsk and all sorts of other diagnostic tools.  In all
> actuality, the thing was bad... I was just skipping all the mundane steps
> they are supposed to follow, in order to determine something I already knew.
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Marlon K. Schafer
> wrote:
>
>> I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
>>
>> Can't get to the main router at that local.
>>
>> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
>> phone number for tech support.
>>
>> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
>> couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
>>
>> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
>> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error.  So
>> I
>> tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
>> said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to
>> allow
>> any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where
>> they
>> usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
>> print, but then again, I shouldn't have to
>>
>> Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site
>> doesn't
>> have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually came
>> up
>> and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the tech support
>> guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not.  ug
>>
>> So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.
>>
>> I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad
>> though)
>> and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business
>> account.
>>
>> Called the next number.  Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still
>> only
>> a few minutes.  We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff.
>> Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on
>> on
>> the modem.  "Um, I'm an hour and a half form there."  "Well, sir, I'm
>> unable
>> help you unless someone is on at the site."
>>
>> Sigh.  The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for
>> months yet.
>>
>> The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or
>> not.
>> It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine.  This is a
>> HUGE telco!  Ug.
>>
>> They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year
>> for.  Probably even more than that.  Amazing.
>>
>> Have a great day, I know I will.
>> marlon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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>


-- 
Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
--- Albert Einstein



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Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Jayson Baker]

So lie to them, and tell them you're standing there and the DSL light is
blinking.  Or whatever they want to hear.
That person is probably a $10/hr individual paid to follow a flow chart, and
doesn't know what to do if your answers don't fall in-line with that chart.
I've done this many times.  Even just the other day I "chatted" with Dell
tech support and said "I need a new hard drive, it's making scraping and
clunking noises" in less than 5 minutes I had a new hard drive on the way,
and less than 24 hours later it was installed in the machine.  Had I told
them what was really going on, I'd of been working with them for an hour via
chat running a chkdsk and all sorts of other diagnostic tools.  In all
actuality, the thing was bad... I was just skipping all the mundane steps
they are supposed to follow, in order to determine something I already knew.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

> I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
>
> Can't get to the main router at that local.
>
> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
> phone number for tech support.
>
> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
> couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
>
> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error.  So
> I
> tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
> said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to allow
> any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where
> they
> usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
> print, but then again, I shouldn't have to
>
> Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site
> doesn't
> have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually came
> up
> and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the tech support
> guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not.  ug
>
> So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.
>
> I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though)
> and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account.
>
> Called the next number.  Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only
> a few minutes.  We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff.
> Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on
> the modem.  "Um, I'm an hour and a half form there."  "Well, sir, I'm
> unable
> help you unless someone is on at the site."
>
> Sigh.  The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for
> months yet.
>
> The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or
> not.
> It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine.  This is a
> HUGE telco!  Ug.
>
> They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year
> for.  Probably even more than that.  Amazing.
>
> Have a great day, I know I will.
> marlon
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Bret Clark]

Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our
towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream
Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points.
That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix
it without getting the run around from a telco.

I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing
telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their
problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their
problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! 

Bret

Tom Sharples wrote:

  I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here 
(Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The "fix" was 
that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to 
power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on 
for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has 
proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since.

Tom S.


- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


  
  
I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.

Can't get to the main router at that local.

So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
phone number for tech support.

IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.

Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error.  So 
I
tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to 
allow
any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where 
they
usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
print, but then again, I shouldn't have to

Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site 
doesn't
have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually came 
up
and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the tech support
guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not.  ug

So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.

I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad 
though)
and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business 
account.

Called the next number.  Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still 
only
a few minutes.  We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff.
Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on 
on
the modem.  "Um, I'm an hour and a half form there."  "Well, sir, I'm 
unable
help you unless someone is on at the site."

Sigh.  The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for
months yet.

The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or 
not.
It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine.  This is a
HUGE telco!  Ug.

They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year
for.  Probably even more than that.  Amazing.

Have a great day, I know I will.
marlon




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Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Tom Sharples]

I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here 
(Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The "fix" was 
that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to 
power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on 
for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has 
proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since.

Tom S.


- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us


>I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
>
> Can't get to the main router at that local.
>
> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
> phone number for tech support.
>
> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
> couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
>
> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error.  So 
> I
> tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
> said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to 
> allow
> any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where 
> they
> usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
> print, but then again, I shouldn't have to
>
> Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site 
> doesn't
> have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually came 
> up
> and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the tech support
> guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not.  ug
>
> So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.
>
> I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad 
> though)
> and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business 
> account.
>
> Called the next number.  Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still 
> only
> a few minutes.  We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff.
> Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on 
> on
> the modem.  "Um, I'm an hour and a half form there."  "Well, sir, I'm 
> unable
> help you unless someone is on at the site."
>
> Sigh.  The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for
> months yet.
>
> The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or 
> not.
> It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine.  This is a
> HUGE telco!  Ug.
>
> They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year
> for.  Probably even more than that.  Amazing.
>
> Have a great day, I know I will.
> marlon
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/






No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.132/2611 - Release Date: 01/10/10 
07:35:00




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Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us

[Josh Luthman]

I take it you never took our advice to have the guts in a NEMA box
outside?  If you did you can at least get it working yourself...

On 1/10/10, Marlon K. Schafer  wrote:
> I have a tower down.  It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link.
>
> Can't get to the main router at that local.
>
> So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a
> phone number for tech support.
>
> IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I
> couldn't find it.  So, I decided to try the online chat thingy.
>
> Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code.
> Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes.  Only to get an error.  So I
> tried again, and again.  Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
> said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them.  Hate to allow
> any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they
> usually have to fill in all of them.  My fault for not reading the fine
> print, but then again, I shouldn't have to
>
> Next, I finally get a tech on the screen.  Well, kinda, the web site doesn't
> have anything but an error at the top.  But the chat part eventually came up
> and a tech was on the line.  We quickly established that the tech support
> guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not.  ug
>
> So, he gave me a phone number for tech support.
>
> I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though)
> and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account.
>
> Called the next number.  Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only
> a few minutes.  We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff.
> Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on
> the modem.  "Um, I'm an hour and a half form there."  "Well, sir, I'm unable
> help you unless someone is on at the site."
>
> Sigh.  The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for
> months yet.
>
> The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not.
> It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine.  This is a
> HUGE telco!  Ug.
>
> They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year
> for.  Probably even more than that.  Amazing.
>
> Have a great day, I know I will.
> marlon
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>


-- 
Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
--- Albert Einstein



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Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

[Jeromie Reeves]

Its not worth that much (to me).  A P168 is half that and seams
decent, I just do not jump on toys very fast anymore but with a
vacation coming up I need to.

On 10/14/07, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  There are some on ebay now for $409 with no contracts.
>
>  Travis
>  Microserv
>
>  Jeromie Reeves wrote:
>  Ive been looking myself, Best price so far has been $150 with a 2yr
> plan. With no ATT out here I think I will still hold out for a iClone.
>
>
>
> On 10/14/07, Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>  So... Can any of these phones be aquired inexpensively new from ATT, with a
> new signup plan?
> Or are they as expensive as the IPhone and other $400+ phones?
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jonathan Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:54 AM
> Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
>
>
>
>
>  ...oh, I get up to 230Kbps Internet on the laptop-to-phone-via-Bluetooth
> and
> if you get just the Cingular/AT&T MediaNet plan you get unlimited Internet
> including that high speed GPRS (not 3G, however but for $19.95 for all you
> can eat, it comes in handy.)
> . . . j o n a t h a n
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt
> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:46 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
>
> I'm sold on the Nokia E61i...a thinner (very thin) and much faster version
> of the E61 with a MUCH better qwerty keyboard, brighter daylight-readable
> screen, Wi-Fi far improved, Bluetooth, SIP phone, VPN, and I get 10 full
> length movies on the hot-swappable microSD chip (unlike the fixed memory
> on
> the iPhone). It goes 10 days standby with a little talking and can watch
> 2
> movies on one battery...which is, unlike the iPhone, also swappable so I
> take a half dozen batteries on trips for 20 movies++ before I need to
> recharge which can be done via USB directly or to a tiny external charger.
>
> However, for me, the best improvement over the E61 was the hotter Wi-Fi.
> It doesn't have GPS but the tiny Holux links to Google maps and I use it.
>
> . . . j o n a t h a n.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:57 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
>
> I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you
> download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the
> iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing)
>
> Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am
> away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and
> not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right
> there!
>
> The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well.
>
> ryan
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of V Proffer
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
>
> Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525. It is good for
> checking
> out hotspots, too.
>
> ~V~
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
>
> Nice.
>
> Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Matt Larsen - Lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM
> Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
>
>
>
>
>  FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used.
> Take
>
>
>  that, iPhone fanboys!
>
> http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone
>
> Matt Larsen
> vistabeam.com
>
>
>
> ---

Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

[Travis Johnson]

There are some on ebay now for $409 with no contracts.

Travis
Microserv

Jeromie Reeves wrote:

  Ive been looking myself, Best price so far has been $150 with a 2yr
plan. With no ATT out here I think I will still hold out for a iClone.



On 10/14/07, Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  
So... Can any of these phones be aquired inexpensively new from ATT, with a
new signup plan?
Or are they as expensive as the IPhone and other $400+ phones?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "Jonathan Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone




  ...oh, I get up to 230Kbps Internet on the laptop-to-phone-via-Bluetooth
and
if you get just the Cingular/AT&T MediaNet plan you get unlimited Internet
including that high speed GPRS (not 3G, however but for $19.95 for all you
can eat, it comes in handy.)
. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:46 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

I'm sold on the Nokia E61i...a thinner (very thin) and much faster version
of the E61 with a MUCH better qwerty keyboard, brighter daylight-readable
screen, Wi-Fi far improved, Bluetooth, SIP phone, VPN, and I get 10 full
length movies on the hot-swappable microSD chip (unlike the fixed memory
on
the iPhone).  It goes 10 days standby with a little talking and can watch
2
movies on one battery...which is, unlike the iPhone, also swappable so I
take a half dozen batteries on trips for 20 movies++ before I need to
recharge which can be done via USB directly or to a tiny external charger.

However, for me, the best improvement over the E61 was the hotter Wi-Fi.
It doesn't have GPS but the tiny Holux links to Google maps and I use it.

. . . j o n a t h a n.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you
download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the
iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing)

Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am
away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and
not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right
there!

The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well.

ryan

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of V Proffer
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525.  It is good for
checking
out hotspots, too.

~V~

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

Nice.

Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message -
From: "Matt Larsen - Lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone


  
  
FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used.
Take

  
  
that, iPhone fanboys!

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com



  
  

  
  
** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



  
  

  
  
WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


  
  

  
  
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Su

Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

[Jeromie Reeves]

Ive been looking myself, Best price so far has been $150 with a 2yr
plan. With no ATT out here I think I will still hold out for a iClone.



On 10/14/07, Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So... Can any of these phones be aquired inexpensively new from ATT, with a
> new signup plan?
> Or are they as expensive as the IPhone and other $400+ phones?
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jonathan Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:54 AM
> Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
>
>
> > ...oh, I get up to 230Kbps Internet on the laptop-to-phone-via-Bluetooth
> > and
> > if you get just the Cingular/AT&T MediaNet plan you get unlimited Internet
> > including that high speed GPRS (not 3G, however but for $19.95 for all you
> > can eat, it comes in handy.)
> > . . . j o n a t h a n
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt
> > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:46 AM
> > To: 'WISPA General List'
> > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
> >
> > I'm sold on the Nokia E61i...a thinner (very thin) and much faster version
> > of the E61 with a MUCH better qwerty keyboard, brighter daylight-readable
> > screen, Wi-Fi far improved, Bluetooth, SIP phone, VPN, and I get 10 full
> > length movies on the hot-swappable microSD chip (unlike the fixed memory
> > on
> > the iPhone).  It goes 10 days standby with a little talking and can watch
> > 2
> > movies on one battery...which is, unlike the iPhone, also swappable so I
> > take a half dozen batteries on trips for 20 movies++ before I need to
> > recharge which can be done via USB directly or to a tiny external charger.
> >
> > However, for me, the best improvement over the E61 was the hotter Wi-Fi.
> > It doesn't have GPS but the tiny Holux links to Google maps and I use it.
> >
> > . . . j o n a t h a n.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:57 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List'
> > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
> >
> > I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you
> > download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the
> > iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing)
> >
> > Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am
> > away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and
> > not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right
> > there!
> >
> > The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well.
> >
> > ryan
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of V Proffer
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM
> > To: 'WISPA General List'
> > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
> >
> > Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525.  It is good for
> > checking
> > out hotspots, too.
> >
> > ~V~
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM
> > To: WISPA General List
> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
> >
> > Nice.
> >
> > Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone.
> >
> >
> > -
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> > http://www.ics-il.com
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Matt Larsen - Lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM
> > Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
> >
> >
> >> FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used.
> >> Take
> >
> >> that, iPhone fanboys!
> >>
> >> http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone
> >>
> >> Matt Larsen
> >> vistabeam.com
> >>
> >>
> >

Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

[Tom DeReggi]

So... Can any of these phones be aquired inexpensively new from ATT, with a 
new signup plan?

Or are they as expensive as the IPhone and other $400+ phones?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Jonathan Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone


...oh, I get up to 230Kbps Internet on the laptop-to-phone-via-Bluetooth 
and

if you get just the Cingular/AT&T MediaNet plan you get unlimited Internet
including that high speed GPRS (not 3G, however but for $19.95 for all you
can eat, it comes in handy.)
. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:46 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

I'm sold on the Nokia E61i...a thinner (very thin) and much faster version
of the E61 with a MUCH better qwerty keyboard, brighter daylight-readable
screen, Wi-Fi far improved, Bluetooth, SIP phone, VPN, and I get 10 full
length movies on the hot-swappable microSD chip (unlike the fixed memory 
on
the iPhone).  It goes 10 days standby with a little talking and can watch 
2

movies on one battery...which is, unlike the iPhone, also swappable so I
take a half dozen batteries on trips for 20 movies++ before I need to
recharge which can be done via USB directly or to a tiny external charger.

However, for me, the best improvement over the E61 was the hotter Wi-Fi.
It doesn't have GPS but the tiny Holux links to Google maps and I use it.

. . . j o n a t h a n.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you
download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the
iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing)

Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am
away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and
not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right
there!

The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well.

ryan

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of V Proffer
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525.  It is good for 
checking

out hotspots, too.

~V~

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

Nice.

Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Larsen - Lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone


FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used. 
Take



that, iPhone fanboys!

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com







** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **






WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/






WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **

--

RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

[Jonathan Schmidt]

...oh, I get up to 230Kbps Internet on the laptop-to-phone-via-Bluetooth and
if you get just the Cingular/AT&T MediaNet plan you get unlimited Internet
including that high speed GPRS (not 3G, however but for $19.95 for all you
can eat, it comes in handy.)
. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:46 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

I'm sold on the Nokia E61i...a thinner (very thin) and much faster version
of the E61 with a MUCH better qwerty keyboard, brighter daylight-readable
screen, Wi-Fi far improved, Bluetooth, SIP phone, VPN, and I get 10 full
length movies on the hot-swappable microSD chip (unlike the fixed memory on
the iPhone).  It goes 10 days standby with a little talking and can watch 2
movies on one battery...which is, unlike the iPhone, also swappable so I
take a half dozen batteries on trips for 20 movies++ before I need to
recharge which can be done via USB directly or to a tiny external charger.

However, for me, the best improvement over the E61 was the hotter Wi-Fi.
It doesn't have GPS but the tiny Holux links to Google maps and I use it.

. . . j o n a t h a n.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you
download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the
iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing)

Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am
away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and
not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right
there!

The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well.

ryan

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of V Proffer
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525.  It is good for checking
out hotspots, too.

~V~

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

Nice.

Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Larsen - Lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone


> FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used.   Take

> that, iPhone fanboys!
>
> http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone
>
> Matt Larsen
> vistabeam.com
>
>


>
> ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
> ISPCON **
> ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
> ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
> ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
> ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
> http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
>
>


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>


>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wi

RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

[Jonathan Schmidt]

I'm sold on the Nokia E61i...a thinner (very thin) and much faster version
of the E61 with a MUCH better qwerty keyboard, brighter daylight-readable
screen, Wi-Fi far improved, Bluetooth, SIP phone, VPN, and I get 10 full
length movies on the hot-swappable microSD chip (unlike the fixed memory on
the iPhone).  It goes 10 days standby with a little talking and can watch 2
movies on one battery...which is, unlike the iPhone, also swappable so I
take a half dozen batteries on trips for 20 movies++ before I need to
recharge which can be done via USB directly or to a tiny external charger.

However, for me, the best improvement over the E61 was the hotter Wi-Fi.
It doesn't have GPS but the tiny Holux links to Google maps and I use it.

. . . j o n a t h a n.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you
download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the
iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing)

Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am
away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and
not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right
there!

The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well.

ryan

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of V Proffer
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525.  It is good for checking
out hotspots, too.

~V~

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

Nice.

Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Larsen - Lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone


> FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used.   Take

> that, iPhone fanboys!
>
> http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone
>
> Matt Larsen
> vistabeam.com
>
>


>
> ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
> ISPCON **
> ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
> ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
> ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
> ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
> http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
>
>


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>


>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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-- 
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.8/906 - Release Date: 7/17/2007
6:30 PM





** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you reg

RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

[D. Ryan Spott]

I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you
download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the
iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing)

Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am
away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and
not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right
there!

The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well.

ryan

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of V Proffer
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525.  It is good for checking
out hotspots, too.

~V~

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

Nice.

Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Larsen - Lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone


> FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used.   Take

> that, iPhone fanboys!
>
> http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone
>
> Matt Larsen
> vistabeam.com
>
>


>
> ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
> ISPCON **
> ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
> ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
> ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
> ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
> http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
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RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

[V Proffer]

Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525.  It is good for checking
out hotspots, too.

~V~

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

Nice.

Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Larsen - Lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone


> FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used.   Take

> that, iPhone fanboys!
>
> http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone
>
> Matt Larsen
> vistabeam.com
>
>


>
> ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
> ISPCON **
> ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
> ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
> ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
> ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
> http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
>
>


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>


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Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

[Mike Hammett]

Nice.

Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Larsen - Lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone


FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used.   Take 
that, iPhone fanboys!


http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
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Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

[Junk Mail]

This is a much better reasoning as to why I do not desire an iPhone.
http://blog.metasploit.com/2007/09/root-shell-in-my-pocket-and-maybe-yours.html


On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 10:39 -0600, Matt Larsen - Lists wrote:

> FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used.   
> Take that, iPhone fanboys!
> 
> http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone
> 
> Matt Larsen
> vistabeam.com
> 
> 
> 
> ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
> ISPCON **
> ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
> ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
> ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
> ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
> http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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> 
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone - Thread CLOSED!

[Junk Mail]

hehehehehehehehe 
roflol

On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 12:00 -0600, Matt Larsen - Lists wrote:

> I apologize for sending this link.   I thought it was funny, but it has 
> quite a bit of crude language and should have been thinking before I 
> forwarded it. 
> 
> Matt Larsen
> vistabeam.com
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Harnish wrote:
> > Thread CLOSED!
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:40 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
> > Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
> >
> > FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used.   
> > Take that, iPhone fanboys!
> >
> > http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone
> >
> > Matt Larsen
> > vistabeam.com
> >
> > 
> > 
> >
> > ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
> > ISPCON **
> > ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
> > ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
> > ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
> > ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
> > http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
> >
> > 
> > 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007
> > 8:43 AM
> >  
> >
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007
> > 8:43 AM
> >  
> >
> > 
> >
> > ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
> > ISPCON **
> > ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
> > ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
> > ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
> > ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
> > http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
> >
> > 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > 
> >  
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
> >   
> 
> 
> 
> ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
> ISPCON **
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> ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
> ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone - Thread CLOSED!

[Matt Larsen - Lists]

I apologize for sending this link.   I thought it was funny, but it has 
quite a bit of crude language and should have been thinking before I 
forwarded it. 


Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com



Rick Harnish wrote:

Thread CLOSED!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used.   
Take that, iPhone fanboys!


http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007

8:43 AM
 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007

8:43 AM
 




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone - Thread CLOSED!

[Rick Harnish]

Thread CLOSED!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone

FWIW, my E70 rules.   It is by far the best phone I have ever used.   
Take that, iPhone fanboys!

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007
8:43 AM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007
8:43 AM
 



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] Why Customers leave

[Clint Ricker]

Interesting thought.  Along those lines, try calling up past customers
and asking them--you may not like the feedback, but, it should be
useful.  In any case, they'll likely have a better idea why they left
than we will :)


-Clint



On 3/31/07, Peter R. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Tom and Jack,

The 68% leaving from Indifference means that you aren't telling them how
good you are.
So when the new guy shows up, he has no idea of the record of reliability.
One of the great things about selling Managed Router or Firewall or IDS
service to businesses is that you can send them a report weekly or
daily. This tells them regularly who you are, what you do, and how well
you are doing it. It is advertising AND a report card.

Many ISPs tell me that people leave - and these people never had a
problem for the x number of years that they were clients. You didn't
tell them. Out of sight is out of mind.

Regards,

Peter


Jack Unger wrote:

> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>
>>* 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm
>>
>> I just don't believe that.  Are most businesses that stupid to allow
>
>
>
> That may be what Peter is trying to get us to think about and/or address.
>
> It takes only one bad customer experience which can easily be provided
> by one employee who either:
>
> 1. Lacks customer skills, or
> 2. Who is having a bad day, or
> 3. Who has just been shit upon by his or her manager
>
> to "sour" a customer on a whole company.
>
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Kentnis Technologies
800.783.5753
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Re: [WISPA] why join ... a rant

[Marlon K. Schafer]

On top of al of that.

You, and every other wisp and vendor should join WISPA because we ARE making 
an impact.  We are making things better for the wisp industry.


Will you agree with everything we do or stand for?  Nope.  Nor do I.  Heck, 
I helped start WISPA and I strongly disagree with the billing mechanism for 
membership.  But I'm still here, on my second stint as a board member no 
less.


What we're doing is important, and it's working.  Sure there's more to do. 
Much more.  And there always will be more to do and different ways to do it. 
What's the alternative though?  So nothing?  participate in nothing?


As a wise man once said, you can't steer a parked car.  In the case of 
WISPA, the car is indeed moving.  Slowly, but we've got the foot to the 
floor.  If you want to help steer you'll have to get out of the trailer in 
back and come sit in the main cab with the rest of us that thing we can do 
more and better together than we can apart.


I've always loved this pic.  I think it fits s well.  (my version of it 
has beer instead of cake though!  hehehehe)

http://www.culinary-yours.com/teamwork.jpg

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] why join ... a rant





Peter R. wrote:


I haven't joined yet either. Three reasons:

(1) I would have to join as a vendor, since I am a consultant - and I 
can't as yet see the ROI.


I can see that. If people here do not pay you enough to pay your dues then 
why would you join? i guess there could be an argument though that you may 
get more sales if the option is made available for you to openly market 
what you sell to WISPs. Now you have to embed your offerings within posts 
to try to make sure you do not spam the group. We do also offer a $100 per 
year Associate level membership. I am sure that is justifiable to anyone 
who has an interest in seeing this industry prosper.




(2) I see the similarities here to another group that I belonged to ... 
and I don't want to go down that path again.


I do not know the details and don't need to know. That is your own issue.



(3) I have a real problem with joining a group where participants pick 
and choose what laws and regulations they will and will not follow - and 
try to rally people to oppose such laws.


Opposing laws and promoting breaking those laws are two different things. 
WISPA will officially support that we should always follow the law. We 
will also tell people when we think that laws need opposition, reform, 
challenges, changes. In the future I want to see us actually play a role 
in removing or easing regulatory and law issues.


We are trying to make CALEA compliance easier for WISPs. That does not 
mean we agree with everything involved in how this law is being mandated 
for WISPs. WISPA could and should work toward vocally supporting changes 
in laws when we feel they work to the detriment of our mission.




Now you can argue all day about whether I am right or wrong in this 
viewpoint, but that is MY perspective and you cannot change that no 
matter how much arguing you do.


You are entitled to feel however you want. WISPA is what it is. The 
members who pay the dues, run for office and meet with regulators, etc. 
decide who we are and what we stand for. The rest here are an audience who 
are here as guests supported by the paid members of WISPA. WISPA is here 
to help and our members have made the resources here possible and they 
deserve some level of respect for this at a minimum. Anyone who uses these 
resources can and should see enough value to buy into some level of 
membership. That is my belief and nobody will change that.   :-)




Let's use a real world analogy. Let's say this was a NASCAR list. And I 
got a speeding ticket on I-4 going 88 in a 70 when there were maybe 5 
cars on that stretch of straight, flat plain, 3-lane highway. And I moan 
about the  ticket and how unfair it was.   "It was entrapment. The cop 
was in a unmarked car hidden behind a concrete barrier. So what if I was 
speeding! There was no one around. Blah blah blah."   It's a banal 
argument and a waste of bytes - and an admission of guilt.


This is a public list made up of more than paid members. It is an open 
public forum for free thinking and censoring is no part of the plan here.




Thanks,

Peter @ RAD-INFO, Inc.


Blair Davis wrote:


On another subject

Two months ago, we were ready to join WISPA. At the time, I felt that 
WISPA had proven its longevity and was becoming a mature voice for the 
WISP's.   But, after the form 477 issue, FCC sticker issue, and now the 
CALEA issue, I'm pretty sure that I disagree with the majority of the 
members on what stance should be taken on these issues

Re: [WISPA] Why Customers leave

[Peter R.]

Tom and Jack,

The 68% leaving from Indifference means that you aren't telling them how 
good you are.

So when the new guy shows up, he has no idea of the record of reliability.
One of the great things about selling Managed Router or Firewall or IDS 
service to businesses is that you can send them a report weekly or 
daily. This tells them regularly who you are, what you do, and how well 
you are doing it. It is advertising AND a report card.


Many ISPs tell me that people leave - and these people never had a 
problem for the x number of years that they were clients. You didn't 
tell them. Out of sight is out of mind.


Regards,

Peter


Jack Unger wrote:


Tom DeReggi wrote:


   * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm

I just don't believe that.  Are most businesses that stupid to allow 




That may be what Peter is trying to get us to think about and/or address.

It takes only one bad customer experience which can easily be provided 
by one employee who either:


1. Lacks customer skills, or
2. Who is having a bad day, or
3. Who has just been shit upon by his or her manager

to "sour" a customer on a whole company.


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Re: [WISPA] Why Customers leave

[Jack Unger]

Tom DeReggi wrote:

Not an accurate list, it leaves off a big category.

- Customer doesn't know who or what they are using, nor why.  Therefore 
makes uninformed decisions.


So lack of communication with client base I believe is one of the 
biggest reasons for custoemr churn.  For example, customer's staff 
change, will result in a new decission maker not being aware of 
history.  I believe our best most trouble free customers (that fall off 
the radar) are the most likely to leave. Because we forget to remind 
them we are there and why they chose us.



   * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm


I just don't believe that.  Are most businesses that stupid to allow 



That may be what Peter is trying to get us to think about and/or address.

It takes only one bad customer experience which can easily be provided 
by one employee who either:


1. Lacks customer skills, or
2. Who is having a bad day, or
3. Who has just been shit upon by his or her manager

to "sour" a customer on a whole company.



that to happen?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: "Peter R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 10:40 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Why Customers leave



Why do customers leave?

   * 1% die
   * 3% move
   * 5% develop other relationships
   * 9% competitive reasons
   * 14% product dissatisfaction
   * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm

Source: U.S. News and World Report

What to do about it?
http://www.rad-info.net/whyleave.htm

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FCC License # PG-12-25133
Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220  www.ask-wi.com


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Re: [WISPA] Why Customers leave

[Tom DeReggi]

Not an accurate list, it leaves off a big category.

- Customer doesn't know who or what they are using, nor why.  Therefore 
makes uninformed decisions.


So lack of communication with client base I believe is one of the biggest 
reasons for custoemr churn.  For example, customer's staff change, will 
result in a new decission maker not being aware of history.  I believe our 
best most trouble free customers (that fall off the radar) are the most 
likely to leave. Because we forget to remind them we are there and why they 
chose us.



   * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm


I just don't believe that.  Are most businesses that stupid to allow that to 
happen?


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Peter R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 10:40 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Why Customers leave



Why do customers leave?

   * 1% die
   * 3% move
   * 5% develop other relationships
   * 9% competitive reasons
   * 14% product dissatisfaction
   * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm

Source: U.S. News and World Report

What to do about it?
http://www.rad-info.net/whyleave.htm

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Re: [WISPA] Why Customers leave

[George Rogato]

Thats a good list Peter.

My broadband churn is almost 100% people dying and moving. I think it's 
like 2:1 moving over dying, Thank god the housing market is in the toilet.


Every week I open the newspaper and see which of my customers passed 
away. This week I lost 2. One a broadband sub and the other a dial up sub.
Aside from the fact that they are no longer paying me, it's sad to watch 
one's life end so suddenly.



Peter R. wrote:

Why do customers leave?

   * 1% die
   * 3% move
   * 5% develop other relationships
   * 9% competitive reasons
   * 14% product dissatisfaction
   * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm

Source: U.S. News and World Report

What to do about it?
http://www.rad-info.net/whyleave.htm



--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] why join ... a rant

[John Scrivner]

Peter R. wrote:


I haven't joined yet either. Three reasons:

(1) I would have to join as a vendor, since I am a consultant - and I 
can't as yet see the ROI.


I can see that. If people here do not pay you enough to pay your dues 
then why would you join? i guess there could be an argument though that 
you may get more sales if the option is made available for you to openly 
market what you sell to WISPs. Now you have to embed your offerings 
within posts to try to make sure you do not spam the group. We do also 
offer a $100 per year Associate level membership. I am sure that is 
justifiable to anyone who has an interest in seeing this industry prosper.




(2) I see the similarities here to another group that I belonged to 
... and I don't want to go down that path again.


I do not know the details and don't need to know. That is your own issue.



(3) I have a real problem with joining a group where participants pick 
and choose what laws and regulations they will and will not follow - 
and try to rally people to oppose such laws.


Opposing laws and promoting breaking those laws are two different 
things. WISPA will officially support that we should always follow the 
law. We will also tell people when we think that laws need opposition, 
reform, challenges, changes. In the future I want to see us actually 
play a role in removing or easing regulatory and law issues.


We are trying to make CALEA compliance easier for WISPs. That does not 
mean we agree with everything involved in how this law is being mandated 
for WISPs. WISPA could and should work toward vocally supporting changes 
in laws when we feel they work to the detriment of our mission.




Now you can argue all day about whether I am right or wrong in this 
viewpoint, but that is MY perspective and you cannot change that no 
matter how much arguing you do.


You are entitled to feel however you want. WISPA is what it is. The 
members who pay the dues, run for office and meet with regulators, etc. 
decide who we are and what we stand for. The rest here are an audience 
who are here as guests supported by the paid members of WISPA. WISPA is 
here to help and our members have made the resources here possible and 
they deserve some level of respect for this at a minimum. Anyone who 
uses these resources can and should see enough value to buy into some 
level of membership. That is my belief and nobody will change that.   :-)




Let's use a real world analogy. Let's say this was a NASCAR list. And 
I got a speeding ticket on I-4 going 88 in a 70 when there were maybe 
5 cars on that stretch of straight, flat plain, 3-lane highway. And I 
moan about the  ticket and how unfair it was.   "It was entrapment. 
The cop was in a unmarked car hidden behind a concrete barrier. So 
what if I was speeding! There was no one around. Blah blah blah."   
It's a banal argument and a waste of bytes - and an admission of guilt.


This is a public list made up of more than paid members. It is an open 
public forum for free thinking and censoring is no part of the plan here.




Thanks,

Peter @ RAD-INFO, Inc.


Blair Davis wrote:


On another subject

Two months ago, we were ready to join WISPA. At the time, I felt that 
WISPA had proven its longevity and was becoming a mature voice for 
the WISP's.   But, after the form 477 issue, FCC sticker issue, and 
now the CALEA issue, I'm pretty sure that I disagree with the 
majority of the members on what stance should be taken on these issues.


That being the case, why should I still join?

--
Blair Davis
West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648




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Re: [WISPA] why join when you disagree?

[Blair Davis]

Peter R. wrote:


So, Blair, none of what WISPA has done, you agree with?

Did not say that.

Then why are you still on the list?
I monitor this public list, and others, to get an idea where things are 
going in the industry. 


Also, to lobby and fight takes effort, energy, time and money.
And it needs someone to lead the charge.
So you and Mark feel very strongly about both CALEA and form 477, why 
not head up to the Hill or to the FCC and state your case?
I wish I could!  I can't speak for Mark, but for me, time and money come 
to mind.


Regards,

Peter @ RAD-INFO, Inc.

Blair Davis wrote:


On another subject

Two months ago, we were ready to join WISPA. At the time, I felt that 
WISPA had proven its longevity and was becoming a mature voice for 
the WISP's.   But, after the form 477 issue, FCC sticker issue, and 
now the CALEA issue, I'm pretty sure that I disagree with the 
majority of the members on what stance should be taken on these issues.


That being the case, why should I still join?

--
Blair Davis
West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648




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Re: [WISPA] why join ... a rant

[Peter R.]

I haven't joined yet either. Three reasons:

(1) I would have to join as a vendor, since I am a consultant - and I 
can't as yet see the ROI.


(2) I see the similarities here to another group that I belonged to ... 
and I don't want to go down that path again.


(3) I have a real problem with joining a group where participants pick 
and choose what laws and regulations they will and will not follow - and 
try to rally people to oppose such laws.


Now you can argue all day about whether I am right or wrong in this 
viewpoint, but that is MY perspective and you cannot change that no 
matter how much arguing you do.


Let's use a real world analogy. Let's say this was a NASCAR list. And I 
got a speeding ticket on I-4 going 88 in a 70 when there were maybe 5 
cars on that stretch of straight, flat plain, 3-lane highway. And I moan 
about the  ticket and how unfair it was.   "It was entrapment. The cop 
was in a unmarked car hidden behind a concrete barrier. So what if I was 
speeding! There was no one around. Blah blah blah."   It's a banal 
argument and a waste of bytes - and an admission of guilt.


Thanks,

Peter @ RAD-INFO, Inc.


Blair Davis wrote:


On another subject

Two months ago, we were ready to join WISPA. At the time, I felt that 
WISPA had proven its longevity and was becoming a mature voice for the 
WISP's.   But, after the form 477 issue, FCC sticker issue, and now 
the CALEA issue, I'm pretty sure that I disagree with the majority of 
the members on what stance should be taken on these issues.


That being the case, why should I still join?

--
Blair Davis
West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648



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Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

[Matt Liotta]

Patrick Leary wrote:

That's why operator-acquired STAs are usually worked cooperatively with
vendors, i.e. the vendor is looking for the operator to perform specific
real world tests for the purposes of product validation, refinement,
etc.
  
Sure... we just had to give the radios back afterwards and no money 
changed hands.


-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

[Patrick Leary]

That's why operator-acquired STAs are usually worked cooperatively with
vendors, i.e. the vendor is looking for the operator to perform specific
real world tests for the purposes of product validation, refinement,
etc.

Even when I've received an STA for demonstrating 3.x GHz product in a
show setting I've been required to post a prominent sign that reads, and
I quote:

"Special Conditions:
(4) Alvarion shall post a sign indicating:
a.) This is European equipment not for use in the USA.
b.) Alvarion version will be available using an approved FCC radio
frequency band."

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:48 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

George Rogato wrote:
> Lets hope this time, the manufacturer acts responsibly and doesn't 
> just sell them to just anyone with a cc.
I didn't think a radio vendor was allowed to sell a product for use with

an experimental license. I thought the radio vendor could only let you 
use the radio for the period of the experiment and then you had to give 
it back. We'd had a 3.65 experimental license for over a year now and I 
have never been able to buy a radio for it.

-Matt

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Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

[Matt Liotta]

George Rogato wrote:
Lets hope this time, the manufacturer acts responsibly and doesn't 
just sell them to just anyone with a cc.
I didn't think a radio vendor was allowed to sell a product for use with 
an experimental license. I thought the radio vendor could only let you 
use the radio for the period of the experiment and then you had to give 
it back. We'd had a 3.65 experimental license for over a year now and I 
have never been able to buy a radio for it.


-Matt

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Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

[George Rogato]

Patrick Leary wrote:

"... Now they know better."

Alas, we can, and I always do, hope that people learn.



That is the whole point of these lists.

To educate and help wisps understand better.

What good is a dormant list?

Some may think that a lot of these posts are just talk and hopefully 
many will see the value of the information buried in here.


George
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RE: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

[Patrick Leary]

"... Now they know better."

Alas, we can, and I always do, hope that people learn.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

It's actually a very good thread.

Just think of those who heard some one else last year say they were 
using their for backhaul...

Now they know better.

These new cards, which have actually been talked about for quite some 
time, will help some of the guys (the RF Gearheads) to do more 
experimenting because they cost less than a redline, etc.

Lets hope this time, the manufacturer acts responsibly and doesn't just 
sell them to just anyone with a cc.

George


Patrick Leary wrote:
> George, to the extent that this thread contributes to myth quashing (a
> never ending task in this business), it is "all good," as the
> colloquialism goes. Be careful though. STA's are not designed for
every
> WISP out there to discover the same thing and the body of knowledge
> about how 3.65 propagates is well understood. For sure in the end it
is
> the FCC itself that issues the STA, and they choose to accept or not
and
> Kris certainly knows what he is doing.
> 
> We'll all be better off when the limbo that is this band is finally
> decided upon.
> 
> Patrick 




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Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

[George Rogato]

It's actually a very good thread.

Just think of those who heard some one else last year say they were 
using their for backhaul...


Now they know better.

These new cards, which have actually been talked about for quite some 
time, will help some of the guys (the RF Gearheads) to do more 
experimenting because they cost less than a redline, etc.


Lets hope this time, the manufacturer acts responsibly and doesn't just 
sell them to just anyone with a cc.


George


Patrick Leary wrote:

George, to the extent that this thread contributes to myth quashing (a
never ending task in this business), it is "all good," as the
colloquialism goes. Be careful though. STA's are not designed for every
WISP out there to discover the same thing and the body of knowledge
about how 3.65 propagates is well understood. For sure in the end it is
the FCC itself that issues the STA, and they choose to accept or not and
Kris certainly knows what he is doing.

We'll all be better off when the limbo that is this band is finally
decided upon.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.





Well maybe a bit, but some of us have our 3650 aps in.

Just figuring your a wealth of information and I knew you would expand



upon this.


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RE: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

[Patrick Leary]

George, to the extent that this thread contributes to myth quashing (a
never ending task in this business), it is "all good," as the
colloquialism goes. Be careful though. STA's are not designed for every
WISP out there to discover the same thing and the body of knowledge
about how 3.65 propagates is well understood. For sure in the end it is
the FCC itself that issues the STA, and they choose to accept or not and
Kris certainly knows what he is doing.

We'll all be better off when the limbo that is this band is finally
decided upon.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:08 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

First, lets clear things up.

I already know that we are not supposed to use it as part of our 
network, regardless of what others might think. We have already heard 
someone else say other wise on a different list as part of a different 
organization.

So, for me, it's to experiment with and to see what kinds of results I 
can get.

I am going to use it personally in a variety of different fashions.

We  hired Kris months ago and we've paid him to handle our application. 
I'm sure we will have to alter our application now that these guys have

George

Patrick Leary wrote:
> George, why do you have an STA application pending? What are your
plans
> for the gear? What is the experiment you will be performing?
> 
> Patrick Leary
> AVP WISP Markets
> Alvarion, Inc.
> o: 650.314.2628
> c: 760.580.0080
> Vonage: 650.641.1243
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of George Rogato
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650, ok, so what's current status?
> 
> Patrick Leary wrote:
>> You are trying to wind me up aren't you George? :)
> 
> :)
> 
> Well maybe a bit, but some of us have our 3650 aps in.
> 
> Just figuring your a wealth of information and I knew you would expand

> upon this.
> 
> George

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Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

[George Rogato]

First, lets clear things up.

I already know that we are not supposed to use it as part of our 
network, regardless of what others might think. We have already heard 
someone else say other wise on a different list as part of a different 
organization.


So, for me, it's to experiment with and to see what kinds of results I 
can get.


I am going to use it personally in a variety of different fashions.

We  hired Kris months ago and we've paid him to handle our application. 
I'm sure we will have to alter our application now that these guys have


George

Patrick Leary wrote:

George, why do you have an STA application pending? What are your plans
for the gear? What is the experiment you will be performing?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650, ok, so what's current status?

Patrick Leary wrote:

You are trying to wind me up aren't you George? :)


:)

Well maybe a bit, but some of us have our 3650 aps in.

Just figuring your a wealth of information and I knew you would expand 
upon this.


George


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RE: [WISPA] Why the STA George?

[Patrick Leary]

George, why do you have an STA application pending? What are your plans
for the gear? What is the experiment you will be performing?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650, ok, so what's current status?

Patrick Leary wrote:
> You are trying to wind me up aren't you George? :)

:)

Well maybe a bit, but some of us have our 3650 aps in.

Just figuring your a wealth of information and I knew you would expand 
upon this.

George
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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

Yeah.  And we're going to track anything of 
value at our hotspots how
 
And I have small sites that use dsl as the 
backhaul.  I'm supposed to use a $500 pc to track what?  The linksys 
router at the site isn't going to give me jack.
 
Marlon(509) 
982-2181   
Equipment sales(408) 907-6910 
(Vonage)    
Consulting services42846865 
(icq)    
And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:25 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?
  Hi,You have to connect to the internet backbone 
  somewhere (even if in multiple locations, etc.). You would simply need a $500 
  PC at each connection. Pretty simple.TravisMicroservMark 
  Koskenmaki wrote: 
  Travis, my network has no such "central" point.   There is no point where my
traffic passes through or can be "mirrored" to a single point at a building.

In less than a year, it will all be dynamically routed via BGP, through
physically diverse locations and providers, and again, traffic from  the
customers will not pass through any place where "logging" can be done.

Nor have I any location to keep such data secure.




- Original Message - 
From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?


  
Hi,

Although I am totally against this, we are already doing this (and keeping
a year's worth of history). Keep in mind we move about 110Mbps of traffic
average. We setup a linux box (p4/2.8ghz with 1GB of RAM and a 200GB drive)
about a year ago and installed IpAudit. This single box is able to keep up
with the traffic load and helps us track down customers that are infected,
SPAMMING, etc.
  
We simply mirror our main incoming port on our backbone switch to another
port, and plug the IpAudit box into that port. Works great. :)
  
Travis
Microserv

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network
infrastructure to do this.

Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for most of
us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a
huge expense that we can't afford.




- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: [WISPA] WHY?



http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rss&tag=6108279&subj=news
  
  Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data?

George

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Re: [WISPA] WHY? ----- ooops!!!!

[Matt Larsen - Lists]

When it comes to my customer's information and what they do, I use DKDC 
protocol.  If a spook comes by asking for logs, they get the NOYB 
protocol.  If they have a court order, they get FIOY protocol.


Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

DKDC=Dont Know, Dont Care
NOYB=None Of Your Business
FIOY=Figure It Out Yourself

Jonathan Schmidt wrote:

...imagine if some entry were mistakenly interpreted and an innocent
subscriber were to take the brunt of the terror-squad's wrath...
especially if that subscriber was a fierce lawyer.
. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Sam Tetherow
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:55 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? - ooops


Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
  

I do not want the legal liability of being responsible for having such


logs,
  

keeping such logs, and having to prove such logs are absolutely accurate.
That's just that part.


Amen to that brother!

Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

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RE: [WISPA] WHY? ----- ooops!!!!

[Jonathan Schmidt]

...imagine if some entry were mistakenly interpreted and an innocent
subscriber were to take the brunt of the terror-squad's wrath...
especially if that subscriber was a fierce lawyer.
. . . j o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Sam Tetherow
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:55 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? - ooops


Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
>
>
> I do not want the legal liability of being responsible for having such
logs,
> keeping such logs, and having to prove such logs are absolutely accurate.
> That's just that part.
Amen to that brother!

Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

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Re: [WISPA] WHY? ----- ooops!!!!

[Sam Tetherow]

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:



I do not want the legal liability of being responsible for having such logs,
keeping such logs, and having to prove such logs are absolutely accurate.
That's just that part.   

Amen to that brother!

   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Scott Reed]

I don't know that I can even do that much, but I agree, it is not for me to fund data collection for the government. If they want data collected, I can make a switch port available and charge them co-location fees to house a system they provide.  As long as there is a law or court order, I have no problem with that.  Otherwise, the data collected will get thrown out of many courts anyway.  No probably cause to be watching.

Scott Reed 


Owner 


NewWays 


Wireless Networking 


Network Design, Installation and Administration 


www.nwwnet.net 




-- Original Message 
---

From: Blair Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 


To: WISPA General List  


Sent: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:27:53 -0400 


Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? 



> IMHO, this is real simple.. 
> 
> 

If you give me an IP, in near real-time or for a few months after, I can  

> 

give you a user name and address, unless it was a free, public access  
> 

use at one of our hotspots, in which case you are SOL.  If it is 6  

> 

months ago or longer, if the user is still a customer, I can give you a  

> 

name and address.  If they have terminated service and paid their bill  

> 

in full, you are again SOL. 
> 
> 

Beyond that, I can't tell you anything.    I do not track where my 
users  
> 

go or what they do or who they IM to, or who they email.  It is none of  

> 

my business and I resent the .gov trying to make me an unpaid cop.  If  

> 

the .gov wants this data, they can pay for it...  and the equipment  

> 

and the data storage... and the bandwidth and my time 
> 
> 

The only thing we track is virus and spam traffic.  And that only for  

> 

defending network integrity.  Those logs die if not looked at in 24-48  

> 

hours 
> 
> 

--  
> 

Blair Davis 
> 
> 

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240 
> 
> 

West Michigan Wireless ISP 
> 

269-686-8648 
> 
> 

A division of: 
> 

Camp Communication Services, INC 
> 
> 

--  
> 

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> 
> 

Subscribe/Unsubscribe: 
> 

http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless 
> 

> 

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 
--- 
End of Original Message 
---






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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Cliff Leboeuf]

Title: Re: [WISPA] WHY?



Right, start trying to charge BB for that! Next, they will require you to ‘buy’ an ISP license to operate to ‘pay you’ your co-lo fees. :-)


On 8/24/06 3:23 PM, "Scott Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I don't know that I can even do that much, but I agree, it is not for me to fund data collection for the government. If they want data collected, I can make a switch port available and charge them co-location fees to house a system they provide.  As long as there is a law or court order, I have no problem with that.  Otherwise, the data collected will get thrown out of many courts anyway.  No probably cause to be watching. 

Scott Reed 
Owner 
NewWays 
Wireless Networking 
Network Design, Installation and Administration 
www.nwwnet.net   


-- Original Message --- 
From: Blair Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: WISPA General List  
Sent: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:27:53 -0400 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? 

> IMHO, this is real simple.. 
> 
> If you give me an IP, in near real-time or for a few months after, I can  
> give you a user name and address, unless it was a free, public access  
> use at one of our hotspots, in which case you are SOL.  If it is 6  
> months ago or longer, if the user is still a customer, I can give you a  
> name and address.  If they have terminated service and paid their bill  
> in full, you are again SOL. 
> 
> Beyond that, I can't tell you anything.    I do not track where my users  
> go or what they do or who they IM to, or who they email.  It is none of  
> my business and I resent the .gov trying to make me an unpaid cop.  If  
> the .gov wants this data, they can pay for it...  and the equipment  
> and the data storage... and the bandwidth and my time 
> 
> The only thing we track is virus and spam traffic.  And that only for  
> defending network integrity.  Those logs die if not looked at in 24-48  
> hours 
> 
> --  
> Blair Davis 
> 
> AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240 
> 
> West Michigan Wireless ISP 
> 269-686-8648 
> 
> A division of: 
> Camp Communication Services, INC 
> 
> --  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org 
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: 
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless 
> 
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 
--- End of Original Message --- 






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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Travis Johnson]

Scott,

We now receive about one supeona per month for information from federal
and state agencies. The last one was a guy in his 30's trying to setup
a "meeting" with a 13 year old girl. I was able to provide the
information because we log all of that already. It's hard to go back
and get traffic info if the offense was 3 weeks prior. (The guy
confessed once the sheriff showed up at his house, BTW).

Travis
Microserv

Scott Reed wrote:

  
  
  I don't know that I can even do that much, but I
agree, it is not for me to fund data collection for the government. If
they want data collected, I can make a switch port available and charge
them co-location fees to house a system they provide.  As long as there
is a law or court order, I have no problem with that.  Otherwise, the
data collected will get thrown out of many courts anyway.  No probably
cause to be watching.
  
  
Scott Reed 
Owner 
NewWays 
Wireless Networking 
Network Design, Installation and Administration 
  www.nwwnet.net 
  
  
  -- Original Message ---
  
From: Blair Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: WISPA General List  
Sent: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:27:53 -0400 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? 
  
> IMHO, this is real simple.. 
> 
> If you give me an IP, in near real-time or for a few months after,
I can 
> give you a user name and address, unless it was a free, public
access 
> use at one of our hotspots, in which case you are SOL.  If it is 6
  
> months ago or longer, if the user is still a customer, I can give
you a 
> name and address.  If they have terminated service and paid their
bill 
> in full, you are again SOL. 
> 
> Beyond that, I can't tell you anything.    I do not track where my
users 
> go or what they do or who they IM to, or who they email.  It is
none of 
> my business and I resent the .gov trying to make me an unpaid cop.
 If 
> the .gov wants this data, they can pay for it...  and the
equipment 
> and the data storage... and the bandwidth and my time 
> 
> The only thing we track is virus and spam traffic.  And that only
for 
> defending network integrity.  Those logs die if not looked at in
24-48 
> hours 
> 
> -- 
> Blair Davis 
> 
> AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240 
> 
> West Michigan Wireless ISP 
> 269-686-8648 
> 
> A division of: 
> Camp Communication Services, INC 
> 
> -- 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org 
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: 
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
  
> 
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
  
  --- End of Original Message ---
  
  
  
  
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This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Blair Davis]

IMHO, this is real simple..

If you give me an IP, in near real-time or for a few months after, I can 
give you a user name and address, unless it was a free, public access 
use at one of our hotspots, in which case you are SOL.  If it is 6 
months ago or longer, if the user is still a customer, I can give you a 
name and address.  If they have terminated service and paid their bill 
in full, you are again SOL.


Beyond that, I can't tell you anything.I do not track where my users 
go or what they do or who they IM to, or who they email.  It is none of 
my business and I resent the .gov trying to make me an unpaid cop.  If 
the .gov wants this data, they can pay for it...  and the equipment 
and the data storage... and the bandwidth and my time


The only thing we track is virus and spam traffic.  And that only for 
defending network integrity.  Those logs die if not looked at in 24-48 
hours



--
Blair Davis

AOL IM Screen Name --  Theory240

West Michigan Wireless ISP
269-686-8648

A division of:
Camp Communication Services, INC

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Re: [WISPA] WHY? ----- ooops!!!!

[Mark Koskenmaki]

- Original Message - 
From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? - ooops


> I still think we need to keep this discussion going for a bit. I have a
> question for you guys. Which do you think is better for all concerned.
> Do you think we should portray a false sense of security and anonymity?

What is this "false sense of security and anonymity?"I have always told
my customers that

> Do you think we should tell our customers, "Hey do whatever you want
> online, nobody is tracking anything". Then when a customer trips up on
> an online resource that is a trap by the feds they get a court order and
> beat on us with subpoenas and the like until we give them whatever data
> we might have.

I have always told my customers that  << I >> don't track what they do, but
that should law enforcement get a court order, I will assist in any way
possible.

>
> I can tell you what I do online and on the telephone. I assume I am
> being monitored all the time. (No...not in that paranoid "they're out to
> get me" sort of way). Why should anyone think otherwise? It is not as if
> the legal system cannot listen in or watch if they really want to. All
> it takes is a court to approve a tap. It is not that big a deal to the
> legal system.
>
> I am not advocating that we help the government strip away our civil
> liberties. If I did not think they were part anti-Christ I would likely
> join and support the ACLU because our government is chiseling away at
> our civil liberties one by one, a piece at a time, slowly and
> methodically and none of us are really doing anything but watching it
> happen and whining about it occasionally. Just like that boiling frog
> analogy someone expressed on here recently (I really liked that analogy
> by the way).

Relax, John, they aren't the "anti-christ", but they do so precious little
for our real rights, I think it's counterproductive to ever support them...
maybe sometimes a particular action, but never "them".

>
> What I am saying is it would probably be a better service to our
> customers if we simply tell them the facts. Let them know that if they
> do something out of line on the Internet that there is a very good
> chance they will be tracked and caught. There are in fact legal efforts
> online setup to trap folks who are doing bad things. They exist and they
> catch lots of people doing bad things. I cannot help but think that part
> of the reason for this increase in criminal behavior is born from a
> false sense of security people have that they can go do things on the
> Internet that nobody will ever catch them or see them doing. They think
> they are invisible or somehow that the laws do not apply while they are
> online.
>
> Maybe if we warn our fellow citizens of the false sense of security
> about anonymity then maybe they will curb some dark repressed desire to
> go find little girls to chat with or try to setup that date with the
> hooker or download that bootleg copy of Snakes on a Plane. I do think
> people need to start using a little more self-control or they will
> actually bring on more erosion of their civil liberties. If we all work
> toward a better culture online then maybe the government will have less
> grounds to erode the open nature of this wonderful medium. This all has
> very little to do with how we might lobby for our own objectives
> involving the tracking of online activity but it makes for good debate
> none the less.
> Scriv

I do not want the legal liability of being responsible for having such logs,
keeping such logs, and having to prove such logs are absolutely accurate.
That's just that part.   I wholeheartedly believe that keeping such things
is definitely wrong, from a constitutional and moral standpoint.




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Re: [WISPA] WHY? ----- ooops!!!!

[George Rogato]

I've always told my customers that whatever they do on the net is not 
annonamous. And that they should assume someone is watching and is 
listening.


I've kinda described privacy on the net is like being blindfolded at the 
local football stadium and thinking nobody is there, but then to find 
out after you take the blindfold off that the stadium is full and 
everyone CAN see you. They just might not be looking at you at the moment.


You know, we can all think we have a right to privacy, but I think our 
rights to privacy for whatever reason we might believe we have them is 
limited.


When you step out in the public domain, there is not much privacy that 
you are entitled to.


As time moves on and the sophistication of our society increases we have 
to adjust our thinking.


George






 Scrivner wrote:
I still think we need to keep this discussion going for a bit. I have a 
question for you guys. Which do you think is better for all concerned. 
Do you think we should portray a false sense of security and anonymity? 
Do you think we should tell our customers, "Hey do whatever you want 
online, nobody is tracking anything". Then when a customer trips up on 
an online resource that is a trap by the feds they get a court order and 
beat on us with subpoenas and the like until we give them whatever data 
we might have.


I can tell you what I do online and on the telephone. I assume I am  
being monitored all the time. (No...not in that paranoid "they're out to 
get me" sort of way). Why should anyone think otherwise? It is not as if 
the legal system cannot listen in or watch if they really want to. All 
it takes is a court to approve a tap. It is not that big a deal to the 
legal system.


I am not advocating that we help the government strip away our civil 
liberties. If I did not think they were part anti-Christ I would likely 
join and support the ACLU because our government is chiseling away at 
our civil liberties one by one, a piece at a time, slowly and 
methodically and none of us are really doing anything but watching it 
happen and whining about it occasionally. Just like that boiling frog 
analogy someone expressed on here recently (I really liked that analogy 
by the way).


What I am saying is it would probably be a better service to our 
customers if we simply tell them the facts. Let them know that if they 
do something out of line on the Internet that there is a very good 
chance they will be tracked and caught. There are in fact legal efforts 
online setup to trap folks who are doing bad things. They exist and they 
catch lots of people doing bad things. I cannot help but think that part 
of the reason for this increase in criminal behavior is born from a 
false sense of security people have that they can go do things on the 
Internet that nobody will ever catch them or see them doing. They think 
they are invisible or somehow that the laws do not apply while they are 
online.


Maybe if we warn our fellow citizens of the false sense of security 
about anonymity then maybe they will curb some dark repressed desire to 
go find little girls to chat with or try to setup that date with the 
hooker or download that bootleg copy of Snakes on a Plane. I do think 
people need to start using a little more self-control or they will 
actually bring on more erosion of their civil liberties. If we all work 
toward a better culture online then maybe the government will have less 
grounds to erode the open nature of this wonderful medium. This all has 
very little to do with how we might lobby for our own objectives 
involving the tracking of online activity but it makes for good debate 
none the less.

Scriv



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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Mark Koskenmaki]

You want me to hang a $500 PC in a box on a non-penetrating roof mount?
Current location has no power, only POE - at 100feet.

Next location up is precisely the same... buildingtop with only POE power
from inside.




- Original Message - 
From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?


> Hi,
>
> You have to connect to the internet backbone somewhere (even if in
multiple locations, etc.). You would simply need a $500 PC at each
connection. Pretty simple.
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
> Travis, my network has no such "central" point.   There is no point where
my
> traffic passes through or can be "mirrored" to a single point at a
building.
>
> In less than a year, it will all be dynamically routed via BGP, through
> physically diverse locations and providers, and again, traffic from  the
> customers will not pass through any place where "logging" can be done.
>
> Nor have I any location to keep such data secure.
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?
>
>
>   Hi,
>
> Although I am totally against this, we are already doing this (and keeping
> a year's worth of history). Keep in mind we move about 110Mbps of
traffic
> average. We setup a linux box (p4/2.8ghz with 1GB of RAM and a 200GB
drive)
> about a year ago and installed IpAudit. This single box is able to keep up
> with the traffic load and helps us track down customers that are infected,
> SPAMMING, etc.
>   We simply mirror our main incoming port on our backbone switch to
another
> port, and plug the IpAudit box into that port. Works great. :)
>   Travis
> Microserv
>
> Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
> Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network
> infrastructure to do this.
>
> Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for most of
> us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a
> huge expense that we can't afford.
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM
> Subject: [WISPA] WHY?
>
>
>
>
http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rss&tag=6108279&subj=news
> Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data?
>
> George
>
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Re: [WISPA] WHY? ----- ooops!!!!

[John Scrivner]

I still think we need to keep this discussion going for a bit. I have a 
question for you guys. Which do you think is better for all concerned. 
Do you think we should portray a false sense of security and anonymity? 
Do you think we should tell our customers, "Hey do whatever you want 
online, nobody is tracking anything". Then when a customer trips up on 
an online resource that is a trap by the feds they get a court order and 
beat on us with subpoenas and the like until we give them whatever data 
we might have.


I can tell you what I do online and on the telephone. I assume I am  
being monitored all the time. (No...not in that paranoid "they're out to 
get me" sort of way). Why should anyone think otherwise? It is not as if 
the legal system cannot listen in or watch if they really want to. All 
it takes is a court to approve a tap. It is not that big a deal to the 
legal system.


I am not advocating that we help the government strip away our civil 
liberties. If I did not think they were part anti-Christ I would likely 
join and support the ACLU because our government is chiseling away at 
our civil liberties one by one, a piece at a time, slowly and 
methodically and none of us are really doing anything but watching it 
happen and whining about it occasionally. Just like that boiling frog 
analogy someone expressed on here recently (I really liked that analogy 
by the way).


What I am saying is it would probably be a better service to our 
customers if we simply tell them the facts. Let them know that if they 
do something out of line on the Internet that there is a very good 
chance they will be tracked and caught. There are in fact legal efforts 
online setup to trap folks who are doing bad things. They exist and they 
catch lots of people doing bad things. I cannot help but think that part 
of the reason for this increase in criminal behavior is born from a 
false sense of security people have that they can go do things on the 
Internet that nobody will ever catch them or see them doing. They think 
they are invisible or somehow that the laws do not apply while they are 
online.


Maybe if we warn our fellow citizens of the false sense of security 
about anonymity then maybe they will curb some dark repressed desire to 
go find little girls to chat with or try to setup that date with the 
hooker or download that bootleg copy of Snakes on a Plane. I do think 
people need to start using a little more self-control or they will 
actually bring on more erosion of their civil liberties. If we all work 
toward a better culture online then maybe the government will have less 
grounds to erode the open nature of this wonderful medium. This all has 
very little to do with how we might lobby for our own objectives 
involving the tracking of online activity but it makes for good debate 
none the less.

Scriv



Tim Kerns wrote:


*Qwest on data retention laws: Oops*
 
http://news.com.com/Qwest+on+data+retention+laws+Oops/2100-1028-6108926.html?part=dht&tag=nl.e703 
<http://news.com.com/Qwest+on+data+retention+laws+Oops/2100-1028-6108926.html?part=dht&tag=nl.e703>
 
Looks like someone may be updating their resume.
 
 


- Original Message -
*From:* Travis Johnson <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* WISPA General List <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>
*Sent:* Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:25 AM
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] WHY?

Hi,

You have to connect to the internet backbone somewhere (even if in
multiple locations, etc.). You would simply need a $500 PC at each
connection. Pretty simple.

Travis
Microserv

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


Travis, my network has no such "central" point.   There is no point where my
traffic passes through or can be "mirrored" to a single point at a building.

In less than a year, it will all be dynamically routed via BGP, through
physically diverse locations and providers, and again, traffic from  the
customers will not pass through any place where "logging" can be done.

Nor have I any location to keep such data secure.




- Original Message - 
From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?


 


Hi,

Although I am totally against this, we are already doing this (and keeping
   


a year's worth of history). Keep in mind we move about 110Mbps of traffic
average. We setup a linux box (p4/2.8ghz with 1GB of RAM and a 200GB drive)
about a year ago and installed IpAudit. This single box is able to keep up
with the traffic load and helps us track down customers that are infected,
SPAMMING, etc.
 


We simply mirror our main incoming port on our backbone switch to another
   


port, and plug the IpAudit box into that port. Works great. :)
 


Travis
Microserv

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
Why?   Because it will severely burden sma

Re: [WISPA] WHY? ----- ooops!!!!

[Tim Kerns]

Qwest on data retention laws: 
Oops
 
http://news.com.com/Qwest+on+data+retention+laws+Oops/2100-1028-6108926.html?part=dht&tag=nl.e703
 
Looks like someone may be updating their 
resume.
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:25 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?
  Hi,You have to connect to the internet backbone 
  somewhere (even if in multiple locations, etc.). You would simply need a $500 
  PC at each connection. Pretty simple.TravisMicroservMark 
  Koskenmaki wrote: 
  Travis, my network has no such "central" point.   There is no point where my
traffic passes through or can be "mirrored" to a single point at a building.

In less than a year, it will all be dynamically routed via BGP, through
physically diverse locations and providers, and again, traffic from  the
customers will not pass through any place where "logging" can be done.

Nor have I any location to keep such data secure.




- Original Message - 
From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?


  
Hi,

Although I am totally against this, we are already doing this (and keeping
a year's worth of history). Keep in mind we move about 110Mbps of traffic
average. We setup a linux box (p4/2.8ghz with 1GB of RAM and a 200GB drive)
about a year ago and installed IpAudit. This single box is able to keep up
with the traffic load and helps us track down customers that are infected,
SPAMMING, etc.
  
We simply mirror our main incoming port on our backbone switch to another
port, and plug the IpAudit box into that port. Works great. :)
  
Travis
Microserv

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network
infrastructure to do this.

Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for most of
us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a
huge expense that we can't afford.




- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: [WISPA] WHY?



http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rss&tag=6108279&subj=news
  
  Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data?

George

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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

You have to connect to the internet backbone somewhere (even if in
multiple locations, etc.). You would simply need a $500 PC at each
connection. Pretty simple.

Travis
Microserv

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

  Travis, my network has no such "central" point.   There is no point where my
traffic passes through or can be "mirrored" to a single point at a building.

In less than a year, it will all be dynamically routed via BGP, through
physically diverse locations and providers, and again, traffic from  the
customers will not pass through any place where "logging" can be done.

Nor have I any location to keep such data secure.




- Original Message - 
From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?


  
  
Hi,

Although I am totally against this, we are already doing this (and keeping

  
  a year's worth of history). Keep in mind we move about 110Mbps of traffic
average. We setup a linux box (p4/2.8ghz with 1GB of RAM and a 200GB drive)
about a year ago and installed IpAudit. This single box is able to keep up
with the traffic load and helps us track down customers that are infected,
SPAMMING, etc.
  
  
We simply mirror our main incoming port on our backbone switch to another

  
  port, and plug the IpAudit box into that port. Works great. :)
  
  
Travis
Microserv

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network
infrastructure to do this.

Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for most of
us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a
huge expense that we can't afford.




- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: [WISPA] WHY?




  
  http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rss&tag=6108279&subj=news
  
  
  Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data?

George

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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Mark Koskenmaki]

Travis, my network has no such "central" point.   There is no point where my
traffic passes through or can be "mirrored" to a single point at a building.

In less than a year, it will all be dynamically routed via BGP, through
physically diverse locations and providers, and again, traffic from  the
customers will not pass through any place where "logging" can be done.

Nor have I any location to keep such data secure.




- Original Message - 
From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?


> Hi,
>
> Although I am totally against this, we are already doing this (and keeping
a year's worth of history). Keep in mind we move about 110Mbps of traffic
average. We setup a linux box (p4/2.8ghz with 1GB of RAM and a 200GB drive)
about a year ago and installed IpAudit. This single box is able to keep up
with the traffic load and helps us track down customers that are infected,
SPAMMING, etc.
>
> We simply mirror our main incoming port on our backbone switch to another
port, and plug the IpAudit box into that port. Works great. :)
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
> Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network
> infrastructure to do this.
>
> Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for most of
> us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a
> huge expense that we can't afford.
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM
> Subject: [WISPA] WHY?
>
>
>
http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rss&tag=6108279&subj=news
>   Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data?
>
> George
>
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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Mark Koskenmaki]

It's not about tracking what IP belongs to what customer.   It's about
logging ALL connections, possibly even content.


- Original Message - 
From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?


> Given what the article cites I don't see it being a severe burden on a
> small ISP.   All that I see mentioned in the article is the ability to
> track what IP belongs to what customer over a period of time.  If you
> can't track that on your network, how do you manage to troubleshoot
> problems or deal with security concerns such as a virus/trojan or other
> inappropriate/malicious behavior on your network?
>
> That being said I don't want anyone to construe that I am for this
> legislation in ANY form.  If the government wants to know what my
> subscribers are doing, they can get a court order and I will gladly log
> the customer covered under the court order for the period described by
> the court order.
>
> This needs to be fought not on a technical basis, but on a rights
> basis.  The technical issues can solved over time and then where would
> we be.
>
> Sam Tetherow
> Sandhills Wireless
>
> Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
> > Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the
network
> > infrastructure to do this.
> >
> > Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for most
of
> > us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or
a
> > huge expense that we can't afford.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "WISPA General List" 
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM
> > Subject: [WISPA] WHY?
> >
> >
> >
> >
http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rss&tag=6108279&subj=news
> >
> >> Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data?
> >>
> >> George
> >>
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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Ron Wallace]

As usual, Scriv has defined this well.  I always want to tell BB to take a long walk on a short dock.  However, This is an important issue, public addresses, private uses.  Well said Scriv.Ron Wallace Hahnron, Inc. 220 S. Jackson Dt. Addison, MI 49220 Phone: (517)547-8410 Mobile: (517)605-4542 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]>-Original Message->From: John Scrivner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 07:02 PM>To: 'WISPA General List'>Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?>>Sam Tetherow wrote:>>> Given what the article cites I don't see it being a severe burden on a >> small ISP. All that I see mentioned in the article is the ability to >> track what IP belongs to what customer over a period of time. If you >> can't track that on your network, how do you manage to troubleshoot >> problems or deal with security concerns such as a virus/trojan or >> other inappropriate/malicious behavior on your network?>>I think most people here track who has what address. Otherwise how could >you possibly run your network? What they likely do not do is keep logs >of who had what address three years ago. Or when IP address "A" changed >to IP address "B" for customer "1" or "2". Without that legacy data the >IP information provided could be inaccurate. In fact the only way it >could be 100% accurate is if the request was in real time - ie. FBI >calls ISP and asks who is using X.X.X.X IP address right now.>>This never happens so the issue is how long should we have to keep this >log information? Should we have to keep it at all? Should we simply use >DNS to assign names to addresses for all users which are kept up to date >then by us? (Names of customers as "A" records for all IPs) Then the >person can be identified by DNS name in real time and leave the rest to >Uncle Sam. After all we do not need to be telling Uncle Sam how to use >DNS right? A sound argument by many could be made that a user of a >"public" IP address should involve "public" disclosure via DNS of who a >user of an address is. Please note I am not saying this is the way it >should be necessarily. Only that this may well be a way to produce the >needed result of government to track wrongdoers and the ISPs to not have >to maintain lengthy log files of who had what address when.>>> >> That being said I don't want anyone to construe that I am for this >> legislation in ANY form. If the government wants to know what my >> subscribers are doing, they can get a court order and I will gladly >> log the customer covered under the court order for the period >> described by the court order.>>The question on that topic is not whether or not a court should be able >to access information. I think that is obvious. The real question is >what should we be obligated to make available (email, web sites browsed, >chats, etc.) We cannot really do much to help the government see where >people go. I do not think that should be our job or any of our business >as ISPs.>>>>> This needs to be fought not on a technical basis, but on a rights >> basis. The technical issues can solved over time and then where would >> we be.>>Let's look at a rights basis then. Should people who use a "public" >Internet be able to be anonymous via the connection of their ISP? If >this "right" is taken away (right of personal anonymity online) then I >think we need to make sure every person knows this when it happens so >the "thought police" do not start throwing people in jail for what they >read and think. Many argue that we have this problem already with some >of the pornography cases where people have been put in prison for what >they saw on the Internet. I agree that these are important issues to >address. Rights does need to be the basis. Technology is not as >important as rights.>Scriv>>>>> Sam Tetherow>> Sandhills Wireless>>>> Mark Koskenmaki wrote:>>>>> Why? Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the >>> network>>> infrastructure to do this.>>>>>> Is WISPA lobbying against this? It will be nearly impossible for >>> most of>>> us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, >>> or a>>> huge expense that we can't afford.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>>> To: "WISPA General List" >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM>>> Subject: [WISPA] WHY?>>>>>>>

Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Carl A Jeptha]

wrong, every person has the right to be assumed innocent until proven 
guilty.

To all,
As a police officer, i need a wiretap on a phone line, because i believe 
the person using that ph. line is doing something illegal. When i get 
that permission from the judicial authority i may start tracking what is 
happening on that ph. line.


Before that, what ever is happening on that ph. line is not legally 
available to me.


So why would the ph company have records of that ph line ready for me, 
before the court gave me permission to tap that ph. line?


You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha



George Rogato wrote:

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the 
network

infrastructure to do this.

Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for 
most of
us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, 
or a

huge expense that we can't afford.




Mark, I can tell that you are a fellow Oregonian!

Thats my guess why... Just to bust our nuts and give us all a push 
over the edge.


George


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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[David E. Smith]

John Scrivner wrote:

> I think most people here track who has what address. Otherwise how could
> you possibly run your network? What they likely do not do is keep logs
> of who had what address three years ago.

Y'know, boss, I could add that to our in-house IP tracking system if you
like. :)

Since Scriv often tells me to do things like that, let's look at this
from a practical standpoint.

Our ISP presently uses static IPs for just about everything, which at
least means the recordkeeping is minimal. (We just stick everything in a
very tiny database - it could easily be a flat-file, or even a big
spreadsheet, as relatively simple as it is.) Adding history entries
would probably take me half an hour, maybe a full hour if I want to
really debug the Hell out of it. If you're a small outfit, that's not
honestly all that complicated.

Now, let's say you're a bit bigger outfit, with, say, five thousand
broadband customers. That's certainly too big to manage your IP space by
hand, but still small enough that you can say you're a "small business"
with that many customers. At that point, you'll certainly have automated
things somewhat, probably with a couple RADIUS servers for customer
authorization and a few DHCP servers. The way I'd do it, honestly, is
probably with a DHCP server at each tower location or POP. Your records
are now quite a bit more decentralized, and to comply with these
requirements, you'll need some kind of automatic log-scraping, or a
centralized logging server, or something.

That's another server (or several servers, if you do things like with
redundancy) you've got to buy, and that your sysop has to maintain. More
spare parts you'll have to keep on the shelf in case one of them goes
pear-shaped. More data you have to ensure is properly backed up. And so
on and so on.

Granted, most of this can probably be put together for just a few
thousand dollars, but that's a few thousand dollars that many smaller
business owners might not have.

> This never happens so the issue is how long should we have to keep this
> log information? Should we have to keep it at all? Should we simply use
> DNS to assign names to addresses for all users which are kept up to date
> then by us? (Names of customers as "A" records for all IPs)

That's an awesomely bad idea, for privacy reasons. I really wouldn't
want the whole world to have access to my name, just by digging up
emails I sent them, and seeing that the headers show the email
originated from "david.e.smith.mvn.net" or something like that.

Also, it'd be a real hassle to set that DNS thing up, boss. :)

> Let's look at a rights basis then. Should people who use a "public"
> Internet be able to be anonymous via the connection of their ISP?

I don't see why not. The Internet is, in that regard, very parallel to
the existing phone system. Every Web page you visit, or every email you
send, will have some numbers that identify you in a pseudonymous manner
(IP addresses), just like phone calls now carry caller ID. The
information is there if you want it, but many people don't use it. (A
lot of folks still don't have a caller ID box, and most folks don't know
how to read email headers.)

If you take a bit of effort to obscure your identity, you can do so.
(There are anonymous remailers and anonymizing Web proxies, and there's
a code you can dial on your phone to block caller ID information.)

Back in college, I ran an anonymous remailer. It may be time to start it
up again...

David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Sam Tetherow]

John Scrivner wrote:

Sam Tetherow wrote:

Given what the article cites I don't see it being a severe burden on 
a small ISP.   All that I see mentioned in the article is the ability 
to track what IP belongs to what customer over a period of time.  If 
you can't track that on your network, how do you manage to 
troubleshoot problems or deal with security concerns such as a 
virus/trojan or other inappropriate/malicious behavior on your network?


I think most people here track who has what address. Otherwise how 
could you possibly run your network? What they likely do not do is 
keep logs of who had what address three years ago. Or when IP address 
"A" changed to IP address "B" for customer "1" or "2". Without that 
legacy data the IP information provided could be inaccurate. In fact 
the only way it could be 100% accurate is if the request was in real 
time - ie. FBI calls ISP and asks who is using X.X.X.X IP address 
right now.
I don't think it would be overly burdensome for an ISP to track this 
information for a year though, which is what Mark's statement originally 
was.  Although I think he was more envisioning tracking more than just 
who went with what IP for a given time period.


This never happens so the issue is how long should we have to keep 
this log information? Should we have to keep it at all? Should we 
simply use DNS to assign names to addresses for all users which are 
kept up to date then by us? (Names of customers as "A" records for all 
IPs) Then the person can be identified by DNS name in real time and 
leave the rest to Uncle Sam. After all we do not need to be telling 
Uncle Sam how to use DNS right? A sound argument by many could be made 
that a user of a "public" IP address should involve "public" 
disclosure via DNS of who a user of an address is.  Please note I am 
not  saying this is the way it should be necessarily. Only that this 
may well be  a way to produce the needed result of government to track 
wrongdoers and the ISPs to not have to maintain lengthy log files of 
who had what address when.
 
That being said I don't want anyone to construe that I am for this 
legislation in ANY form.  If the government wants to know what my 
subscribers are doing, they can get a court order and I will gladly 
log the customer covered under the court order for the period 
described by the court order.


The question on that topic is not whether or not a court should be 
able to access information. I think that is obvious. The real question 
is what should we be obligated to make available (email, web sites 
browsed, chats, etc.) We cannot really do much to help the government 
see where people go. I do not think that should be our job or any of 
our business as ISPs.
Realistically, about all we can do is say user X went to IP Y on port 
Z.  If we are talking about any organized illegal behavior (child 
pornography rings, drug cartels, terrorists), they will be using 
encrypted data transfer and quite likely proxies and ip anonymizers.  
The concept of capturing and retaining customer email and chat logs 
would keep me up nights.  That is not data that I want to have stored on 
my servers for any period of time from both a personal privacy 
standpoint as well as a liability standpoint.




This needs to be fought not on a technical basis, but on a rights 
basis.  The technical issues can solved over time and then where 
would we be.


Let's look at a rights basis then. Should people who use a "public" 
Internet be able to be anonymous via the connection of their ISP? If 
this "right" is taken away (right of personal anonymity online) then I 
think we need to make sure every person knows this when it happens so 
the "thought police" do not start throwing people in jail for what 
they read and think. Many argue that we have this problem already with 
some of the pornography cases where people have been put in prison for 
what they saw on the Internet. I agree that these are important issues 
to address. Rights does need to be the basis. Technology is not as 
important as rights.
I think there should be some ability for limited anonymity.  For 
instance I think I should be certain that someone cannot enter my name 
into a web page and get my IP address.  I also don't think it 
unreasonable to think that any schmuck cannot take my IP address and get 
my name from it.  However I do think it unreasonable to think that law 
enforcement, given a proper warrent would be able to take my IP address 
and get me name.  I would be a little leery of them being able to enter 
my name and get my IP from a database somewhere though.


I liken this to being able to do a *67 to block my number showing up on  
caller ID.  In reality we have greater capability than this though.  I 
can go to Walmart and pay cash for a cell phone that cannot be traced to 
anywhere other than a particular store.  Couple this to a modem on a PC 
along with a free AOL account and all you can do is trace the 
information back

Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

I'd think that's the case too.

has anyone called her to find out what quest's reasons are?

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the 
network

infrastructure to do this.

Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for most 
of

us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a
huge expense that we can't afford.




Mark, I can tell that you are a fellow Oregonian!

Thats my guess why... Just to bust our nuts and give us all a push over 
the edge.


George

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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[John Scrivner]

Sam Tetherow wrote:

Given what the article cites I don't see it being a severe burden on a 
small ISP.   All that I see mentioned in the article is the ability to 
track what IP belongs to what customer over a period of time.  If you 
can't track that on your network, how do you manage to troubleshoot 
problems or deal with security concerns such as a virus/trojan or 
other inappropriate/malicious behavior on your network?


I think most people here track who has what address. Otherwise how could 
you possibly run your network? What they likely do not do is keep logs 
of who had what address three years ago. Or when IP address "A" changed 
to IP address "B" for customer "1" or "2". Without that legacy data the 
IP information provided could be inaccurate. In fact the only way it 
could be 100% accurate is if the request was in real time - ie. FBI 
calls ISP and asks who is using X.X.X.X IP address right now.


This never happens so the issue is how long should we have to keep this 
log information? Should we have to keep it at all? Should we simply use 
DNS to assign names to addresses for all users which are kept up to date 
then by us? (Names of customers as "A" records for all IPs) Then the 
person can be identified by DNS name in real time and leave the rest to 
Uncle Sam. After all we do not need to be telling Uncle Sam how to use 
DNS right? A sound argument by many could be made that a user of a 
"public" IP address should involve "public" disclosure via DNS of who a 
user of an address is.  Please note I am not  saying this is the way it 
should be necessarily. Only that this may well be  a way to produce the 
needed result of government to track wrongdoers and the ISPs to not have 
to maintain lengthy log files of who had what address when.


 
That being said I don't want anyone to construe that I am for this 
legislation in ANY form.  If the government wants to know what my 
subscribers are doing, they can get a court order and I will gladly 
log the customer covered under the court order for the period 
described by the court order.


The question on that topic is not whether or not a court should be able 
to access information. I think that is obvious. The real question is 
what should we be obligated to make available (email, web sites browsed, 
chats, etc.) We cannot really do much to help the government see where 
people go. I do not think that should be our job or any of our business 
as ISPs.




This needs to be fought not on a technical basis, but on a rights 
basis.  The technical issues can solved over time and then where would 
we be.


Let's look at a rights basis then. Should people who use a "public" 
Internet be able to be anonymous via the connection of their ISP? If 
this "right" is taken away (right of personal anonymity online) then I 
think we need to make sure every person knows this when it happens so 
the "thought police" do not start throwing people in jail for what they 
read and think. Many argue that we have this problem already with some 
of the pornography cases where people have been put in prison for what 
they saw on the Internet. I agree that these are important issues to 
address. Rights does need to be the basis. Technology is not as 
important as rights.

Scriv



   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the 
network

infrastructure to do this.

Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for 
most of
us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, 
or a

huge expense that we can't afford.




- Original Message - From: "George Rogato" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: [WISPA] WHY?


  
http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rss&tag=6108279&subj=news 

 


Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data?

George

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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

Although I am totally against this, we are already doing this (and
keeping a year's worth of history). Keep in mind we move about 110Mbps
of traffic average. We setup a linux box (p4/2.8ghz with 1GB of RAM and
a 200GB drive) about a year ago and installed IpAudit. This single box
is able to keep up with the traffic load and helps us track down
customers that are infected, SPAMMING, etc.

We simply mirror our main incoming port on our backbone switch to
another port, and plug the IpAudit box into that port. Works great. :)

Travis
Microserv

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

  Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network
infrastructure to do this.

Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for most of
us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a
huge expense that we can't afford.




- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: [WISPA] WHY?


  
  http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rss&tag=6108279&subj=news
  
  
Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data?

George

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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Sam Tetherow]

Given what the article cites I don't see it being a severe burden on a 
small ISP.   All that I see mentioned in the article is the ability to 
track what IP belongs to what customer over a period of time.  If you 
can't track that on your network, how do you manage to troubleshoot 
problems or deal with security concerns such as a virus/trojan or other 
inappropriate/malicious behavior on your network?


That being said I don't want anyone to construe that I am for this 
legislation in ANY form.  If the government wants to know what my 
subscribers are doing, they can get a court order and I will gladly log 
the customer covered under the court order for the period described by 
the court order.


This needs to be fought not on a technical basis, but on a rights 
basis.  The technical issues can solved over time and then where would 
we be.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network
infrastructure to do this.

Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for most of
us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a
huge expense that we can't afford.




- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: [WISPA] WHY?


  
http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rss&tag=6108279&subj=news
  

Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data?

George

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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[George Rogato]

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network
infrastructure to do this.

Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for most of
us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a
huge expense that we can't afford.




Mark, I can tell that you are a fellow Oregonian!

Thats my guess why... Just to bust our nuts and give us all a push over 
the edge.


George

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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Mark Koskenmaki]

Why?   Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network
infrastructure to do this.

Is WISPA lobbying against this?   It will be nearly impossible for most of
us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a
huge expense that we can't afford.




- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: [WISPA] WHY?


>
http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rss&tag=6108279&subj=news
>
> Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data?
>
> George
>
> -- 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
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Re: [WISPA] WHY?

[Jack Unger]

Glad you asked...

Qwest knows that Big Brother (BB) loves you and only wants to protect you.

BB needs all your web surfing data, your email data, and your VoIP phone 
calling data.


Having this data will help BB to identify "enemies of the state" and to 
stamp out "thoughtcrime".



http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/1/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_%281984%29


Up with Big Brother!!!




George Rogato wrote:


http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rss&tag=6108279&subj=news

Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data?

George



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Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
Newsletters Downloadable from http://ask-wi.com/newsletters.html
Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220  www.ask-wi.com



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RE: [WISPA] Why ILEC regulation is different from Cable and WISP regulation... WAS: Re: FCC & DSL - WBIA ACTIONRecommendation

[Charles Wu]

Hi Tony,

I was in the process of putting together a thoughtful rebuttal, but now this
has become a moot point giving the latest FCC ruling...

-Charles

---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tony Weasler
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Why ILEC regulation is different from Cable and WISP
regulation... WAS: Re: FCC & DSL - WBIA ACTIONRecommendation


Charles,

  Given your position on this issue, I have to believe that your comments
are partially tongue-in-cheek.  The telcos have had a government-mandated
monopoly for over 50 years where they were allowed to collect monopolistic
profits to build the grand network that they possess today.  They own their
cable plants as a direct result of the money that the public contributed
(and continue to contribute in most
areas) to them; not because they were one of the competitors offering a
top-notch service.  The ILECs continue to control last-mile access to
consumers not because it is impossible for competitors to mirror their
connectivity, but because it is cost-prohibitive to build that
infrastructure when the expected gross return hovers around $300/year  [1].

  ILECs aren't comparable to cable providers for three reasons: 1) cable
providers generally built their networks from capitol generated from their
operations without financial assistance from the government and were not
granted taxation authority to subsidize network construction a la USF; 2)
Cable providers' services have not been a nearly required utility for the
past 50 years.  3) Cable providers have cost-analogous competition in
virtually every market from Satellite based television providers, video
rental stores, online information services, etc.

ILECs aren't comparable to WISPs for the same reasons above and for these
additional reasons: 1) WISPs for the most part haven't had any assistance
from the public sector that wasn't available to any other business at the
time; 2) WISPs could have a viable competitor enter their market at any time
for a relatively low start-up cost.  The only potentially limiting factor is
tower locations and as many of you know, if one municipality rejects you,
you just beam it in from outside the town [2]; 3) Most WISPs have little
power to eliminate competition by undercharging because they don't have the
ability to generate monopolistic profits from other operations.


The ILECs are deathly afraid that the government will not allow them to
exclusively exploit their monopoly-gained infrastructure because they know
that their operation is so incredibly inefficient and out-dated that they
can't compete with other carriers even when they are on slightly-elevated
ground.  If $14.95/month business 1.5MB DSL isn't desperate dumping to
eliminate competition, I don't know what is.  They couldn't do this without
their monopoly phone line revenue from the past 75 years.  How much do they
charge for a T-1? $700/month?  Is it really that much different?


Allowing ILECs to prevent competitors from using their newly-built
infrastructure in 2004 was a shaky proposition because they usually possess
the ability to build that infrastructure as a direct result of their
previous monopoly.  Allowing ILECs to prevent others from using their
existing infrastructure that was paid for as a direct result of their
monopoly amounts to nothing less than government corporate welfare which
will lead to fewer choices for consumers [3] and higher prices [4] for the
services that they have the privilege of ordering from the duopoly.

 - Tony

P.S.  Anyone want to bid on this with me?  Oh, you don't have enough
capital?  I can't imagine why...
http://news.com.com/2061-10800_3-5819312.html

[1] Assuming $50/month revenue and a 50% chance that they choose a
competitor.  Yes, I know that we can bundle services to get this number to
$100 or more, but that generally hasn't happened and it's simpler to just
talk about Internet-based services.  Additionally, the _net_ return from an
individual consumer probably hovers around $200/year.  Can you even build
wireless connectivity for this kind of return while running the inefficient
operations that the ILECs have?

[2] Maybe this part of WISP operations should be regulated.  I can see some
benefit to having an equal-access-to-towers regulation that covers all
structures in an economically- or politically-limited tower environment.

[3] Most ISPs rely on ILEC connectivity for either last-mile access to their
customers or for their interconnectivity to the Internet.  If the ILECs are
allowed to discontinue or artificially inflate the cost of these services we
will see a similar loss-of-competition that occurred three years ago with
competing DSL providers.

[4] They will probably look lower though. I am amazed by how foolish most
consumers act.  Many actually