RE: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
This story gives no information about whether the person referred to can or cannot use a browser 'efficiently'. To do her job she presumably needs to use the web, but there's no reason to believe that she needs to know that the user agent she uses to do that is called a browser, let alone that it's called Internet Explorer. The lack of a common vocabulary makes it difficult to troubleshoot, but there are no grounds for believing that she can't do her job effectively. Very few people get comprehensive training in the software they use in their day-to-day work (and I say that as an ex-IT trainer in a large government department). Most get enough training - formally or informally - to get by. Once they have found a way of completing a particular task, they are unlikely to take the time to look for other, more efficient, ways of doing it. In many cases, investing that time would pay off many times over, but the fact remains that it means taking time away from the stuff that they're being paid to do right now. Even though my children's generation - today's young adults - have grown up with the web, most of them still find one way of doing something, and then stick to it, rather than exploring alternatives. In any event, there is little to be gained by designing websites based on what you think your users ought to know, if it doesn't match what they actually do know. Back to the original question: should a link to a different website open in a new window or not? If you force the new page to open in a new window (or tab), you are taking control of the user experience. Obviously, this will suit some of your users, but it will irritate those who know how to open a new window but don't want to, and confuse those who don't recognise what you've done. Jakob Neilsen has argued for more than a decade that opening new windows confuses the user and breaks the most commonly recognised browser feature: the back button. A SitePoint article making several of these points is here: http://www.sitepoint.com/beware-opening-links-new-window/ Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Tom Ditmars Sent: Friday, 30 December 2011 6:32 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 12/29/2011 01:02 PM, coder wrote: I had an awful job getting her to understand what [a browser was], but eventually she explained : I use my e. This was subsequently clarified by the explanation that she meant the small blue thing at the bottom of the screen. Let me add that this lady sits in front of her PC, at work, using the internet 5 days a week, all day, and has done for 10 years that I know of. That is the failure of either her employer for failing to train her properly or herself for failing seeking the appropriate training to do her job. Web developers should not and cannot be expected to cater to users who use the [Web] 5 days a week ... for 10 years and refuse to learn to use it efficiently. I would dare to venture that the world has reached a point where knowing about things like tabs or right-clicking should be expected. The World Wide Web has existed for nearly 20 years. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
Brilliantly put Janice! Bob - Original Message - From: Janice Schwarz jan...@geekartist.net To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites There are still many people that have not used the Internet. Or barely use it. Not everyone works in an office. Not everyone has been able to afford a home computer for 20 years, or 10, or even 5. Not everyone even likes to be in front of a computer. There are many who absolutely loathe using them. Everyone that uses the Internet is not you. It is not *us*. We are very different from most site visitors. They think nothing like us. I work with those people every day, in a variety of settings. I've been working in this field since '98 and I *still* meet people who are using the Internet for the very first time. My personal take is: design functionality based on your target demographic. If it's a saavy demographic, then work with that. If it's the general population, then about half of them can't use a computer, or just barely can, and work around that. Internet access and usage varies by country, province, state, economic and educational brackets, age, and so on. Every demographic will interact differently with a website. Users surprise us often in how they will approach a site. -- Janice Schwarz GeekArtist Web Solutions, LLC www.geekartist.com Phone: (214) 302-7575 Twitter: GeekArtist *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
- Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke re...@splintered.co.uk To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites Can I just turn this around? To those on this discussion so adamant that popping up a new window is a good thing...explain WHY! Is it the age-old but if I link out of my site, users won't know how to get back to my site...I don't want to lose visitors stance? P -- Patrick H. Lauke Patrick: I don't say having windows all over the place is something great per se, but I do say that for most applications on a PC it is a emvery/em tidy and very convenient way of handling masses of data which is related (like my analogy of a web page in Dreamweaver or similar - I have my markup in one window, my CSS in another, my file list in another frame and my output in a browser etc etc etc.) Similarly, with mail, I sometimes want to compare different mails so I need two (or more)open in their own windows, whilst my 'list' of mails is displayed in another frame as indeed are my contacts. And so it goes on. So, to move to your specific point, it is needed sometimes to have a separate window - as a pdf, for example. In these cases, the less PC literate amongst us (who outnumber the literate by a great deal) have to be catered for - I do this by making sure that if a new window is needed, they know this because it tells them before they click. We on this list are all clever little boys and girls who know about right-clicking to select a new window or not, and indeed we probably all use tabs anyway. I repeat that most people don't know any of this. Most people don't even know what a back button is! Someone recently asked me a question as they were having a problem. As I wasn't in front of her screen I asked her what her browser was. I had an awful job getting her to understand what I was asking, but eventually she explained : I use my e. This was subsequently clarified by the explanation that she meant the small blue thing at the bottom of the screen. Let me add that this lady sits in front of her PC, at work, using the internet 5 days a week, all day, and has done for 10 years that I know of. Do you think she knows about the back-button? right-click? tabs? Come on!!! :-) Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 29/12/2011 18:02, coder wrote: I don't say having windows all over the place is something great per se, but I do say that for most applications on a PC it is a emvery/em tidy and very convenient way of handling masses of data which is related (like my analogy of a web page in Dreamweaver or similar - I have my markup in one window, my CSS in another, my file list in another frame and my output in a browser etc etc etc.) Similarly, with mail, I sometimes want to compare different mails so I need two (or more)open in their own windows, whilst my 'list' of mails is displayed in another frame as indeed are my contacts. And so it goes on. So, to move to your specific point, it is needed sometimes to have a separate window - as a pdf, for example. In these cases, the less PC literate amongst us (who outnumber the literate by a great deal) have to be catered for - I do this by making sure that if a new window is needed, they know this because it tells them before they click. But if I remember correctly, the thread starter asked about opening external websites in new windows. And this goes back to the heart of the matter: it's not necessarily about masses of data to compare, or contextual information that needs to be seen in parallel, or even PDF (which, depending on browser settings, may even open directly in Acrobat Reader for some users, meaning they're potentially left with a new, yet empty, window/tab). It's about the assumption that visitors won't want to leave MY website, I want to keep them here...let the external link open somewhere else. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
What I'm still not getting from this whole discussion is: it seems that throughout the thread those of us opposed to launching new windows/tabs have had to justify why we're opposed to them. Can I just turn this around? To those on this discussion so adamant that popping up a new window is a good thing...explain WHY! Is it the age-old but if I link out of my site, users won't know how to get back to my site...I don't want to lose visitors stance? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 12/29/11 8:55 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: FWIW Apple do provide guidance for how windows in OS X are supposed to work: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/Windows/Windows.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/2961-TPXREF21 Not sure Skype is following that guidance … And unfortunately, guidance such as this is often ambiguous; the Skype developers may have considered the two items that open to be panels in the OS X sense. The point is that as an end user I have no idea in advance that one function changes this window, another launches another window. But that's what happens, so clearly the developers felt there was a contextual difference that meant replacing the main window content with this other content was inappropriate. Why should *web apps* be unconditionally constrained from the same context-driven behavior? -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com http://about.me/hassanschroeder twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 12/29/2011 01:02 PM, coder wrote: I had an awful job getting her to understand what [a browser was], but eventually she explained : I use my e. This was subsequently clarified by the explanation that she meant the small blue thing at the bottom of the screen. Let me add that this lady sits in front of her PC, at work, using the internet 5 days a week, all day, and has done for 10 years that I know of. That is the failure of either her employer for failing to train her properly or herself for failing seeking the appropriate training to do her job. Web developers should not and cannot be expected to cater to users who use the [Web] 5 days a week ... for 10 years and refuse to learn to use it efficiently. I would dare to venture that the world has reached a point where knowing about things like tabs or right-clicking should be expected. The World Wide Web has existed for nearly 20 years. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 12/28/11 8:08 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 12:49 PM, coderco...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote: SO you mean that mr Dreamweaver programmer, or Mr outlook, etc etc . . . shouldn't do it either? Since they aren't navigating hypermedia, I'm not sure that's comparable. But typically you have a fine degree of user control of the opening of new windows in such programs. At the very least, it's predictable. Sorry, that's just nonsense. Take a non-technical-consumer app like Skype. On my Mac, it opens a single window when launched. Some functions change the content of that window; two open new windows. Which two functions? Feel free to predict, I'll wait :-) I also see no obvious way to control the above behavior. -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com http://about.me/hassanschroeder twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com wrote: On 12/28/11 8:08 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: [snip] Since they aren't navigating hypermedia, I'm not sure that's comparable. But typically you have a fine degree of user control of the opening of new windows in such programs. At the very least, it's predictable. Sorry, that's just nonsense. Take a non-technical-consumer app like Skype. On my Mac, it opens a single window when launched. Some functions change the content of that window; two open new windows. Which two functions? Feel free to predict, I'll wait :-) Point taken, I'm giving desktop apps too much credit here. FWIW Apple do provide guidance for how windows in OS X are supposed to work: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/Windows/Windows.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/2961-TPXREF21 Not sure Skype is following that guidance … -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Tom Ditmars zar...@zarggg.net wrote: On 12/29/2011 01:02 PM, coder wrote: I had an awful job getting her to understand what [a browser was], but eventually she explained : I use my e. This was subsequently clarified by the explanation that she meant the small blue thing at the bottom of the screen. Let me add that this lady sits in front of her PC, at work, using the internet 5 days a week, all day, and has done for 10 years that I know of. That is the failure of either her employer for failing to train her properly or herself for failing seeking the appropriate training to do her job. Web developers should not and cannot be expected to cater to users who use the [Web] 5 days a week ... for 10 years and refuse to learn to use it efficiently. I would dare to venture that the world has reached a point where knowing about things like tabs or right-clicking should be expected. The World Wide Web has existed for nearly 20 years. There are still many people that have not used the Internet. Or barely use it. Not everyone works in an office. Not everyone has been able to afford a home computer for 20 years, or 10, or even 5. Not everyone even likes to be in front of a computer. There are many who absolutely loathe using them. Everyone that uses the Internet is not you. It is not *us*. We are very different from most site visitors. They think nothing like us. I work with those people every day, in a variety of settings. I've been working in this field since '98 and I *still* meet people who are using the Internet for the very first time. My personal take is: design functionality based on your target demographic. If it's a saavy demographic, then work with that. If it's the general population, then about half of them can't use a computer, or just barely can, and work around that. Internet access and usage varies by country, province, state, economic and educational brackets, age, and so on. Every demographic will interact differently with a website. Users surprise us often in how they will approach a site. -- Janice Schwarz GeekArtist Web Solutions, LLC www.geekartist.com Phone: (214) 302-7575 Twitter: GeekArtist *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 12/29/11 11:31 AM, Tom Ditmars wrote: I would dare to venture that the world has reached a point where knowing about things like tabs or right-clicking should be expected. The World Wide Web has existed for nearly 20 years. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings... :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MwTvtyrUQ -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com http://about.me/hassanschroeder twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 29/12/11 17:53, Hassan Schroeder wrote: Why should *web apps* be unconditionally constrained from the same context-driven behavior? You ask an interesting question: are we talking about web apps or web sites? Does the answer make a difference? Can a user tell the difference? Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 29/12/11 18:02, coder wrote: Most people don't even know what a back button is! Apparently most people do: The Back button is the lifeline of the Web user and the second-most used navigation feature (after following hypertext links). http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html Though I grant that research from 1999 possibly not the most reliable source for current use patterns. Note that in Windows 7 the back button is a primary navigation feature in Explorer and system config stuff. Interestingly the most recent version of the 'top ten design mistakes' article has opening new windows at number 9: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
What fascinates me (still) is that a PC (laptop, whatever) works by displaying many windows. Hell fire, the OS is called 'windows' . . . (unless you are a fruit fan). All the common programs employ 'several' windows to make their functionality easier to handle (just look at Dreamweaver or any other web design program of that ilk!) So, why do some folk think that's OK, but if you are using a browser it's awful? Are these folk still using DOS with one screen at a time? Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 9:39 AM, coder co...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote: What fascinates me (still) is that a PC (laptop, whatever) works by displaying many windows. Hell fire, the OS is called 'windows' . . . (unless you are a fruit fan). All the common programs employ 'several' windows to make their functionality easier to handle (just look at Dreamweaver or any other web design program of that ilk!) So, why do some folk think that's OK, but if you are using a browser it's awful? Strawman. Being able to open multiple browser windows is great! Having Joe Random Site Author decide when that should happen is not. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
SO you mean that mr Dreamweaver programmer, or Mr outlook, etc etc . . . shouldn't do it either? Bob :-) - Original Message - From: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis bhawkesle...@googlemail.com To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 9:39 AM, coder co...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote: What fascinates me (still) is that a PC (laptop, whatever) works by displaying many windows. Hell fire, the OS is called 'windows' . . . (unless you are a fruit fan). All the common programs employ 'several' windows to make their functionality easier to handle (just look at Dreamweaver or any other web design program of that ilk!) So, why do some folk think that's OK, but if you are using a browser it's awful? Strawman. Being able to open multiple browser windows is great! Having Joe Random Site Author decide when that should happen is not. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 12:49 PM, coder co...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote: SO you mean that mr Dreamweaver programmer, or Mr outlook, etc etc . . . shouldn't do it either? Since they aren't navigating hypermedia, I'm not sure that's comparable. But typically you have a fine degree of user control of the opening of new windows in such programs. At the very least, it's predictable. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
This subject and me have some history so please excuse me if I get a little ranty. I’ll do my level best to be rational and on topic. Here goes… To my mind this comes down to a very simple question: What will the user of the website (or piece of software) you are building expect to happen when they click the link? Broadly speaking I believe if you are providing a surprise you need a good reason to do so. If by performing an action that causes something unexpected to happen, an inexperienced users confidence in their ability to use and anticipate how your software works will be eroded. When you surprise an experienced user they are more likely to blame the software rather than themselves for the annoyance. Either outcome is not desirable. Surprise can be wonderful. Essential, for example, to an effective ending to any great movie. I love useful surprises built into software that anticipate my needs. Opening a new window automatically is hardly a delight. The only time I have found it useful for a window to open in fresh browser chrome is where I have a need to see the information on both pages simultaneously. These kind of “pop-up” windows tend to be significantly smaller than the window that launched them. After all the website designer couldn’t presume to know the size of my monitor! These are the kind of utility windows are commonly seen within desktop software. On a website they have been made largely redundant by JavaScript libraries that make it easy to load or reveal information or options within the page to which they have a direct relationship. There is a different (almost opposite) reason many people want links on their web page to open in a new window. This is the one that I find most annoying. They want visitors clicking a link on their site to notice the new window and read it to mean something like: “The link I just clicked is to a website separate to that which I was just looking at. I won’t want to linger there long. It’s a distraction. I’ll pop my head in for a little peek. When I’m done in a moment I can just close this new window to come back to the more important website and continue along my way. A little presumptuous don’t you think? That other website may be exactly what I was looking for. If not, consider what happens when I can’t see the first site (now concealed under the new window) and I reach for the most useful button in my browser – the back button. Nothing. By opening a new window have created a new thread of browsing history for me. If I was an experienced user I would know and understand what happened and recover quickly. I would also know how and when to open a fresh window on my own (I don’t need your help with the items on my desk thank-you). If I was new to this internet thing I may not understand such technicalities and feel needlessly frustrated. I’d love to be able to pull out some user testing that supports my take on this. Sadly I cannot – so take it as experienced opinion and consider the specific context you are working in. Here’s an exception to consider right in front of me. GMail. It is not surprising to me that the links open in a new window because in my experience my email application does not disappear when I click a link in an email. To avoid the surprise you may inform us with phrase or an icon alongside a link that will open in a new window. If in doubt, keep it simple and do what people expect. Use a regular link. Keep the surprises to the twists of action thrillers. Thankfully pop-up windows don’t kill people. Happy New Year when it comes Ollie -- @ollicle *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 28/12/11 7:39 PM, coder wrote: So, why do some folk think that's OK, but if you are using a browser it's awful? I think it comes down to predictability. The various programs mentioned open new windows in a predictable pattern - one knows when a new window will open. Websites open windows not only unpredictably (ignoring the small status bar message which I note, but I'm sure Jo(e) Public doesn't) but somewhat invisibly - it isn't always obvious if you blink at the wrong moment that a new window opened, it just looks like the back button stopped working... IMHO Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems Brisbane, .au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com On 12/23/11 11:12 AM, MJ Ray wrote: No - it switches on a second browser viewport, either above or below the first one. ? above or below? Not sure we're talking about the same thing. Or at least I wouldn't describe it in those terms. Ah, now, what had happened there was that I had already jumped ahead to thinking of the desktop metaphor. In-front/behind also works. [...] What happens when you read a page on your desk and turn to another page? Does the new page usually appear alongside (like a new window) or beneath it (like a new tab) - or does it usually replace the page you finished? It replaces it, unless you do something special like grab a duplicate. *OR* it's got a *different relationship* to the original window. If it's simply a *continuation* of the content, sure, replacing the original window content makes sense. But if it's e.g. a 'help' link, or a dialog box, it *does* open a new window. Help and confirmation pop-ups are very much special cases. I'd tolerate new windows, but I'd prefer web apps not to need them. What is a continuation of the content, though? I wonder if the crux of the argument here is that some of us (maybe the longer-serving webmasters?) think a link can be a continuation despite it going to another site. After all, it's the world-wide web, one giant multi-authored multi-part hypertext document collection. So, each window is like flipping through pages in a copy of this near-infinite document, following references in a non-linear order. The document doesn't suddenly replicate itself without asking. If the original content is a PDF, clicking an embedded link doesn't open inside Adobe Reader; it *opens a new window*. If I click on a link in my Twitter client, ditto. If cousin Connie emails a link to her favorite LOLCAT of the day, click, boom, new window. If people are baffled by new windows opening, there must be a lot of continual head-shaking going on out there... Or more people shift-click or use the back button than some think. PDFs aren't part of hypertext and Adobe Reader is badly-designed in several ways, so I'd ignore that. Meanwhile, neither my microblog or webmail clients open links into new windows: maybe if you prefer that behaviour, you prefer different clients to me. Dear readers, please let me know your views on whether the web is one document collection or many, how many years you've been webmastering and if/when you think links should open new windows - I really wonder if they are related somehow. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 12/27/11 11:26 AM, MJ Ray wrote: Help and confirmation pop-ups are very much special cases. Heh, it's always about the special cases :-) What is a continuation of the content, though? I wonder if the crux of the argument here is that some of us (maybe the longer-serving webmasters?) think a link can be a continuation despite it going to another site. After all, it's the world-wide web, one giant multi-authored multi-part hypertext document collection. I was considering continuation to be a segment of a whole, in the sense of Part 2 of 3, where it basically *is* linear order, to use your term. PDFs aren't part of hypertext and Adobe Reader is badly-designed in several ways, so I'd ignore that. Meanwhile, neither my microblog or webmail clients open links into new windows: maybe if you prefer that behaviour, you prefer different clients to me. Your microblog client is also a browser? Interesting; mind telling us what it is exactly? And regardless, many if not most desktop apps handle URLs by launching a different app (== different window) to display them. Dear readers, please let me know your views on whether the web is one document collection or many, I'd say the distinction is irrelevant; the issue is whether there are differences in the relationships *between documents* significant enough to justify different display behavior. how many years you've been webmastering 18 -- but with the wind chill factor it feels like less :-) and if/when you think links should open new windows - I really wonder if they are related somehow. As above: sometimes yes, sometimes no, depending on context. And bearing in mind I'm really (ideally?) referring to new tabs in a tabbed browser. -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com http://about.me/hassanschroeder twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 20 December 2011 13:09, Alex Mironov alexmiro...@graphicdesignservices.ato.gov.au wrote: [snip] I was wondering if anyone had any views/resources as to whether users should remain in the same window or should be taken to a new window/tab when they click on an external link? Short answer: don't open new windows/tabs (unless you have a really good reason). Reason 1: it's da law! (if you're subject to WCAG 2.0 accessibility requirements, e.g. Australian Govt) ... e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G200 (well, ok, not strictly da law, but clearly bad practice for many accessibility use cases and likely to fail accessibility audits.) Reason 2: opening new windows/tabs by default basically says welcome to 1999! If you're fine with that, go right ahead ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 12/22/11 4:06 PM, m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: Hassan Schroederhas...@webtuitive.com Regardless -- for the vocal objectors, do the same objections apply to opening a new tab? Pretty much. That's just a smaller version of the same problem. Think of it this way: when you change channel on the tv, you expect it to change channel, not switch on a second tv to the new channel. That's crazy, isn't it? Not only crazy, but the Worst Analogy EVAR :-) Opening a new tab does nothing like switch on a second computer. And that's aside from the fact that I utterly hate the Flintstone technology we call television -- single window, no integrated on-screen nav -- the dumb terminal of media delivery. Appalling that we still have crap like this in the 21st Century. Regardless, I suspect that there's a significant difference in the user perception of tabs vs. windows, but I'd like to know if anyone has done any actual studies. -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com http://about.me/hassanschroeder twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com On 12/22/11 4:06 PM, m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: Hassan Schroederhas...@webtuitive.com Regardless -- for the vocal objectors, do the same objections apply to opening a new tab? Pretty much. That's just a smaller version of the same problem. Think of it this way: when you change channel on the tv, you expect it to change channel, not switch on a second tv to the new channel. That's crazy, isn't it? Not only crazy, but the Worst Analogy EVAR :-) Rubbish - I've done far worse before. Opening a new tab does nothing like switch on a second computer. No - it switches on a second browser viewport, either above or below the first one. And that's aside from the fact that I utterly hate the Flintstone technology we call television -- single window, no integrated on-screen nav -- the dumb terminal of media delivery. Appalling that we still have crap like this in the 21st Century. Your television doesn't have on-screen navigation? We've had it in some form since Digital Video Broadcasting started over a decade ago and now it's the only option in most of the UK. There are also the usual media centres but the simple TV display is still king for a reason. Some things have multi-window displays but it still only makes occasional appearances. Why is this? I say it's because it sucks because it doesn't fit the cinema-ish use metaphor. It sucks on the desktop too. If you take the actual computer desktop metaphor, with windows as documents on a desktop, opening new windows or tabs isn't the common action in that metaphor. What happens when you read a page on your desk and turn to another page? Does the new page usually appear alongside (like a new window) or beneath it (like a new tab) - or does it usually replace the page you finished? It replaces it, unless you do something special like grab a duplicate. Regardless, I suspect that there's a significant difference in the user perception of tabs vs. windows, but I'd like to know if anyone has done any actual studies. I'm aware of work on content-box tabs by Yahoo! described on http://www.useit.com/alertbox/tabs.html but not of browser-level tabs. It would be interesting. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 12/23/11 11:12 AM, MJ Ray wrote: Not only crazy, but the Worst Analogy EVAR :-) Rubbish - I've done far worse before. I sit corrected - your powers are te awesum :-) Opening a new tab does nothing like switch on a second computer. No - it switches on a second browser viewport, either above or below the first one. ? above or below? Not sure we're talking about the same thing. Or at least I wouldn't describe it in those terms. Your television Apologies for the diversion; I could go on a long time about that one, but it's really OT here. Though again, it would be interesting to know if anyone's done studies on how computers/web browsing has influenced the perspective of TV users. Back to the original topic: It sucks on the desktop too. If you take the actual computer desktop metaphor, with windows as documents on a desktop, opening new windows or tabs isn't the common action in that metaphor. What happens when you read a page on your desk and turn to another page? Does the new page usually appear alongside (like a new window) or beneath it (like a new tab) - or does it usually replace the page you finished? It replaces it, unless you do something special like grab a duplicate. *OR* it's got a *different relationship* to the original window. If it's simply a *continuation* of the content, sure, replacing the original window content makes sense. But if it's e.g. a 'help' link, or a dialog box, it *does* open a new window. If the original content is a PDF, clicking an embedded link doesn't open inside Adobe Reader; it *opens a new window*. If I click on a link in my Twitter client, ditto. If cousin Connie emails a link to her favorite LOLCAT of the day, click, boom, new window. If people are baffled by new windows opening, there must be a lot of continual head-shaking going on out there... -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com http://about.me/hassanschroeder twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com Regardless -- for the vocal objectors, do the same objections apply to opening a new tab? Pretty much. That's just a smaller version of the same problem. Think of it this way: when you change channel on the tv, you expect it to change channel, not switch on a second tv to the new channel. That's crazy, isn't it? Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. Webmaster, Debian Developer, Past Koha RM, statistician, former lecturer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire for various work http://www.software.coop/products/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 20/12/2011 23:44, Chris Price wrote: One advantage I can see in opening a new window (on a larger screen at least) is you can dismiss the page by closing that window rather than feeling you are being taken somewhere you don't want to go. Is this context sensitive? Yes it is context sensitive, and the context which is important is the user's. Since the designer can't know in what context (or for what reason) the user is clicking on any given link it is the user who should be deciding whether to open the link in a new window or not. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
Janice Schwarz jan...@geekartist.net On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:42 AM, MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: I'm pretty sure there is no such standard preventing mobile phones from opening new windows because my aging nokia e90 can do it (since one of the early upgrades - move to the link, left shoulder button, Open in New), Firefox on Android can - but it's been a while since I tried an iPhone and I can't remember if that does, but I'd be surprised if not. For all the difficulty of fixing iPhones, there's not usually that much glaringly broken on them. If there was, they'd not be as popular as they are. So I still think it's a bug if a browser can't open a new window and wonder what phones you've being using. Or can someone say what mobile phone standard prevents new windows on links? I have witnessed this on 2 Droids 1 iPhone . This has been the behavior for both versions of the Droid, and the iPhone I used. That's interesting. I wonder if the bug on Androids only affects some manufacturers? I believe the one I tested was from HTC. But no standard preventing user control of windows, then. [...] When the OS informs you that you are exceeding the maximum number of *allowed* windows, that seems more of a limitation than a bug. If you open enough windows on a desktop or laptop, eventually it crashes too. I managed to open 112 windows on my netbook by mistake yesterday (crimes of a dying keyboard). No sign of any crashing, although it took a while to clean up! There is no unlimited number of windows that can be run on any system, and a phone has far fewer resources than a desktop or laptop. This is exactly why new windows should be under user control and not website control, so users can choose where to apply the resources! Hope that informs, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
In one sense, this argument is fallacious, because whatever the web designer does decides what happens when a user just 'clicks a link'. In my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about right clicking. To say 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue, because he/she doesn't know they've got a choice, and what happens depends upon what the designer has coded. Bob - Original Message - From: Rob Crowther robe...@boogdesign.com To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 20/12/2011 23:44, Chris Price wrote: One advantage I can see in opening a new window (on a larger screen at least) is you can dismiss the page by closing that window rather than feeling you are being taken somewhere you don't want to go. Is this context sensitive? Yes it is context sensitive, and the context which is important is the user's. Since the designer can't know in what context (or for what reason) the user is clicking on any given link it is the user who should be deciding whether to open the link in a new window or not. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 21/12/2011 12:16, coder wrote: In one sense, this argument is fallacious, because whatever the web designer does decides what happens when a user just 'clicks a link'. In my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about right clicking. To say 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue, because he/she doesn't know they've got a choice, and what happens depends upon what the designer has coded. A tired argument, but based on the premises that: - most users don't know they can open links explicitly in a new window/tab - the vast majority of links out on t'internet are simply that, straight links, with no extra target=_blank or similar the fact that a link takes them away to another site is, as a consequence, the expected behaviour that those non-savvy users have. By trying to be extra good (here, let me open this in a new window for you), designers may arguably be breaking that expectation and confusing those users, rather than helping them. The argument is slightly different for small pop-ups inside web applications, but that sort of behaviour doesn't work well on mobiles/tablets, if we want to include those in the discussion. TL;DR just use straight links. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 12/21/11 5:04 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: On 21/12/2011 12:16, coder wrote: In one sense, this argument is fallacious, because whatever the web designer does decides what happens when a user just 'clicks a link'. In my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about right clicking. To say 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue, because he/she doesn't know they've got a choice, and what happens depends upon what the designer has coded. A tired argument, but based on the premises that: - most users don't know they can open links explicitly in a new window/tab - the vast majority of links out on t'internet are simply that, straight links, with no extra target=_blank or similar the fact that a link takes them away to another site is, as a consequence, the expected behaviour that those non-savvy users have. By trying to be extra good (here, let me open this in a new window for you), designers may arguably be breaking that expectation and confusing those users, rather than helping them. [...] Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click option right there on your web page. If a link does open a new window, say so. A case could be made for opening PDFs in a new window. But this always breaks the back button, and I doubt there are many who don't know about that browser feature. :) -- Cordially, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 21/12/2011 17:14, David Hucklesby wrote: Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click option right there on your web page. Ah, but then do you also need explain about tap-and-hold context menus on touchscreens? Or about keyboard shortcut equivalents, for all browser/OS combinations? And for those who do know, does it not sound patronising? It's a difficult balancing act, and I generally take the - maybe hardline - attitude that it's not our job to educate users about how to use their browsers. As long as our site works for them, we shouldn't require them to learn new commands/ways of working (this reminds me of my many futile attempts to get parents/wife/friends/colleagues to correctly use features in software...and then being reminded of http://xkcd.com/763/ ) :) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
Please remove me from the WSG mail-serv. I am no longer in the Website business. Thank you for your support in the past. God Bless, Keith Steinacher Chief Bottle-Washer On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Patrick H. Lauke re...@splintered.co.uk wrote: On 21/12/2011 17:14, David Hucklesby wrote: Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click option right there on your web page. Ah, but then do you also need explain about tap-and-hold context menus on touchscreens? Or about keyboard shortcut equivalents, for all browser/OS combinations? And for those who do know, does it not sound patronising? It's a difficult balancing act, and I generally take the - maybe hardline - attitude that it's not our job to educate users about how to use their browsers. As long as our site works for them, we shouldn't require them to learn new commands/ways of working (this reminds me of my many futile attempts to get parents/wife/friends/colleagues to correctly use features in software...and then being reminded of http://xkcd.com/763/ ) :) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 12/21/11 9:35 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: On 21/12/2011 17:14, David Hucklesby wrote: Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click option right there on your web page. Ah, but then do you also need explain about tap-and-hold context menus on touchscreens? Or about keyboard shortcut equivalents, for all browser/OS combinations? And for those who do know, does it not sound patronising? It's a difficult balancing act, and I generally take the - maybe hardline - attitude that it's not our job to educate users about how to use their browsers. As long as our site works for them, we shouldn't require them to learn new commands/ways of working (this reminds me of my many futile attempts to get parents/wife/friends/colleagues to correctly use features in software...and then being reminded of http://xkcd.com/763/ ) :) P LOL. -- Cordially, David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
I have used this CSS :
a[rel=external] {
padding-right: 13px;
background: url(outofit.gif) no-repeat right top;
}
With this code:
a href=../sjp.html rel=external onclick=window.open(this.href); return
false;THIS/a is a link to a new window
or, for html5:
a href=../sjp.html rel=external target-_blankTHIS/a is a link to
a new window
I have also used a variant for pdf, and one for mail links too. No-one has
complained (Though Felix might, now . . .)
Bob
- Original Message -
From: David Hucklesby huckle...@gmail.com
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab
is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click
option right there on your web page. If a link does open a new window,
say so. A case could be made for opening PDFs in a new window. But this
always breaks the back button, and I doubt there are many who don't know
about that browser feature. :)
--
Cordially,
David
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Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 12/19/11 6:09 PM, Alex Mironov wrote: Muchof my research suggests that the recommended practice is to keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances. Most of the responses to this seem to focus on the evils of opening a new *window*. I'm under the impression that Webkit browsers (Chrome, Safari) open a new *tab* by default, which to me seems fine. It's obvious it's a different tab, the original page is right next to it, etc. Firefox has an option to set this behavior; anyone know what any of the IEs do? (Heh, I don't even know which IE versions support tabs.) Regardless -- for the vocal objectors, do the same objections apply to opening a new tab? -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com http://about.me/hassanschroeder twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 21/12/2011 19:44, Hassan Schroeder wrote: On 12/19/11 6:09 PM, Alex Mironov wrote: Muchof my research suggests that the recommended practice is to keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances. Most of the responses to this seem to focus on the evils of opening a new *window*. I'm under the impression that Webkit browsers (Chrome, Safari) open a new *tab* by default, which to me seems fine. It's obvious it's a different tab, the original page is right next to it, etc. Firefox has an option to set this behavior; anyone know what any of the IEs do? (Heh, I don't even know which IE versions support tabs.) Regardless -- for the vocal objectors, do the same objections apply to opening a new tab? My main objection is: let the user decide. If they never knew they could do it, then that's their expected behaviour - that once they activate a link, they're taken to another place. Most of them know about the back button functionality. And if they DO know about opening links in new windows/tabs, and maybe even have their browser configured especially, then they're power users and again let them decide. Nonetheless, make it clear if a link is going to a completely separate site. Don't make it look like any other link within your current site, if possible. Or change the wording a la for more information, visit the a href=http://...;Blahblah company site/a. - take away the surprise from it. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 2011/12/21 12:16 (GMT) coder composed: In my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about right clicking. To say 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue, because he/she doesn't know they've got a choice The same situation exists here as with text size control. Just because a user doesn't know about minimum font size or zoom options doesn't mean he doesn't have a choice to use it. Just how many gadgets do you have that you know 100% how to use all its features? Dumbing down to the lowest common denominator degrades the user experience for the undumb at least, and probably even for at least some of the dumb. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. -- Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
Grant Bailey grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au If the link is to an external site then personally, I prefer the link to open in a new window automatically. Also, not all devices make it easy for users to open a link in a new window on request. Such devices are buggy and should be repaired, then. Don't degrade the web for everyone else because a few devices are buggy. I detest websites opening new windows enough that browser.link.open_newwindow is set to 1 in my firefox-based browser. Makes them open in the same window. One related thing I've noticed since a few upgrades ago is that twitter and a few other sites now say This content cannot be displayed in a frame To protect your security, the publisher of this content does not allow it to be displayed in a frame. I'm not at any security risk because it's a frame I created! Does anyone know what option will override that, at least for one page? Thanks, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 5:57 AM, MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: Grant Bailey grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au If the link is to an external site then personally, I prefer the link to open in a new window automatically. Also, not all devices make it easy for users to open a link in a new window on request. Such devices are buggy and should be repaired, then. Don't degrade the web for everyone else because a few devices are buggy. To my knowledge, that's standard on mobile phones. It's not a bug. It's limit to what the technology can handle. And given the number of people using phones to surf the web now, that's an important consideration for standards. -- Janice Schwarz GeekArtist Web Solutions, LLC www.geekartist.com Phone: (214) 302-7575 Twitter: GeekArtist *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
Janice Schwarz jan...@geekartist.net On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 5:57 AM, MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: [devices that can't open new windows] Such devices are buggy and should be repaired, then. Don't degrade the web for everyone else because a few devices are buggy. To my knowledge, that's standard on mobile phones. It's not a bug. It's limit to what the technology can handle. And given the number of people using phones to surf the web now, that's an important consideration for standards. I'm pretty sure there is no such standard preventing mobile phones from opening new windows because my aging nokia e90 can do it (since one of the early upgrades - move to the link, left shoulder button, Open in New), Firefox on Android can - but it's been a while since I tried an iPhone and I can't remember if that does, but I'd be surprised if not. For all the difficulty of fixing iPhones, there's not usually that much glaringly broken on them. If there was, they'd not be as popular as they are. So I still think it's a bug if a browser can't open a new window and wonder what phones you've being using. Or can someone say what mobile phone standard prevents new windows on links? Hope that informs, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:42 AM, MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: Janice Schwarz jan...@geekartist.net On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 5:57 AM, MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: [devices that can't open new windows] Such devices are buggy and should be repaired, then. Don't degrade the web for everyone else because a few devices are buggy. To my knowledge, that's standard on mobile phones. It's not a bug. It's limit to what the technology can handle. And given the number of people using phones to surf the web now, that's an important consideration for standards. I'm pretty sure there is no such standard preventing mobile phones from opening new windows because my aging nokia e90 can do it (since one of the early upgrades - move to the link, left shoulder button, Open in New), Firefox on Android can - but it's been a while since I tried an iPhone and I can't remember if that does, but I'd be surprised if not. For all the difficulty of fixing iPhones, there's not usually that much glaringly broken on them. If there was, they'd not be as popular as they are. So I still think it's a bug if a browser can't open a new window and wonder what phones you've being using. Or can someone say what mobile phone standard prevents new windows on links? I have witnessed this on 2 Droids 1 iPhone . This has been the behavior for both versions of the Droid, and the iPhone I used. Admittedly, I only used the iPhone 10 days before I sent it back to get a Droid instead, so I may be mis-remembering. It's been a few years since I used a Blackberry or Palm, so I don't recall if there was a limit on those. When the OS informs you that you are exceeding the maximum number of *allowed* windows, that seems more of a limitation than a bug. If you open enough windows on a desktop or laptop, eventually it crashes too. There is no unlimited number of windows that can be run on any system, and a phone has far fewer resources than a desktop or laptop. Hope that informs, -- Janice Schwarz GeekArtist Web Solutions, LLC www.geekartist.com Phone: (214) 302-7575 Twitter: GeekArtist Facebook *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
I followed your useit link and the article was so good I wanted to share it via Linkedin and Twitter. I ended up having several windows opening, I had little idea what was going on and often didn't know why I had arrived where I had. Since then I've found 2 floating open windows and am still not sure what I achieved. It seems the opening of new windows is often arbitrary which adds to the confusion. I have a client who has often complained that when he closes a window his browser shuts down. He assumes he has opened a new window when he hasn't. There is the contrary issue of dealing with learned behaviour derived from using websites adopting bad practices. How do we overcome this? On another note which may be completely unrelated (sorry). When using Wikipedia I have often come across a link which I hoped would elaborate on the topic at hand only to find myself in an entirely unrelated article. E.g. I may be looking at culture and find a link to 'America' and find myself in an article on geography. One advantage I can see in opening a new window (on a larger screen at least) is you can dismiss the page by closing that window rather than feeling you are being taken somewhere you don't want to go. Is this context sensitive? On 20 December 2011 02:09, Alex Mironov alexmiro...@graphicdesignservices.ato.gov.au wrote: Hi I have been doing some research on expected behaviour of clicking on links from within a website to other external websites. Much of my research suggests that the recommended practice is to keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances. This gives users maximum control as they have the choice to left click on the link and open in a new tab/window. I have included a few links: http://uxdesign.smashingmagazine.com/2008/07/01/should-links-open-in-new-windows/ http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html I was wondering if anyone had any views/resources as to whether users should remain in the same window or should be taken to a new window/tab when they click on an external link? Regards Alex Mironov *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
Alex, If the link is to an external site then personally, I prefer the link to open in a new window automatically. Also, not all devices make it easy for users to open a link in a new window on request. Regards, Grant Bailey On 20/12/2011 1:09 PM, Alex Mironov wrote: Hi I have been doing some research on expected behaviour of clicking on links from within a website to other external websites. Much of my research suggests that the recommended practice is to keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances. This gives users maximum control as they have the choice to left click on the link and open in a new tab/window. I have included a few links: http://uxdesign.smashingmagazine.com/2008/07/01/should-links-open-in-new-windows/ http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html I was wondering if anyone had any views/resources as to whether users should remain in the same window or should be taken to a new window/tab when they click on an external link? Regards Alex Mironov *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 2011/12/20 15:42 (GMT+1100) Grant Bailey composed: If the link is to an external site then personally, I prefer the link to open in a new window automatically. Also, not all devices make it easy for users to open a link in a new window on request. I detest pages that think it's their business to decide when I should have a new window. It's my computer, my decision to make, which only very rarely is more than one window per open application. Whenever I encounter such rudeness, I try to show my gratitude by leaving the site completely never to return. When that's not practical I close the window and open the rude URL via history in a new tab or the tab opened from, whichever makes more sense in the situation. Forced new windows must really be no fun for users of hand held devices where all windows need to be full screen to be of any use. It should be sufficient to indicate a link is to offsite via special hover behavior so that the visitor can choose a new window, or tab, _if_ desired. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
Of course that will break everyone with a device that limits the number of browser instances, as your device will probably expunge instances that haven't been used recently - which is rather a pity as I like to keep instances open so that I can go back to them. If I really wanted to expunge an old instance, I can do so if I choose. The point of hyperlinking is that linking from one context to the next, is seamless; opening up another window isn't seamless. And since the web is stateless, there is no reason to think that staying on a given domain/path is more special than jumping to some other random path - the modern example of this is twitter. cheers, Mathew Robertson On 20 December 2011 15:42, Grant Bailey grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au wrote: Alex, If the link is to an external site then personally, I prefer the link to open in a new window automatically. Also, not all devices make it easy for users to open a link in a new window on request. Regards, Grant Bailey On 20/12/2011 1:09 PM, Alex Mironov wrote: Hi I have been doing some research on expected behaviour of clicking on links from within a website to other external websites. Much of my research suggests that the recommended practice is to keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances. This gives users maximum control as they have the choice to left click on the link and open in a new tab/window. I have included a few links: http://uxdesign.**smashingmagazine.com/2008/07/** 01/should-links-open-in-new-**windows/http://uxdesign.smashingmagazine.com/2008/07/01/should-links-open-in-new-windows/ http://www.useit.com/alertbox/**9605.htmlhttp://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html I was wondering if anyone had any views/resources as to whether users should remain in the same window or should be taken to a new window/tab when they click on an external link? Regards Alex Mironov *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**mail/guidelines.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**join/unsubscribe.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberhelp@webstandardsgroup.**orgmemberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**mail/guidelines.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**join/unsubscribe.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberhelp@webstandardsgroup.**orgmemberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
As a matter of policy, all links on w3.org open in the same window. The reasons for this are, as some have already alluded to: - the user remains in control and can choose to open in a new tab/window or not; - mobile devices, even where they support multiple windows, don't display the tabs at the top (as there's so little space), so keeping track of what is in which window is just not as easy on mobile as it is on desktop; but the *main* reason is - accessibility. Navigating across multiple windows means you have to maintain a mental map of what is open in which tab. This is more difficult for a variety of disabled users. Actually, this highlights the relationship between mobile and accessibility. One window only AFAIAC. HTH Phil On 20/12/2011 05:57, Mathew Robertson wrote: Of course that will break everyone with a device that limits the number of browser instances, as your device will probably expunge instances that haven't been used recently - which is rather a pity as I like to keep instances open so that I can go back to them. If I really wanted to expunge an old instance, I can do so if I choose. The point of hyperlinking is that linking from one context to the next, is seamless; opening up another window isn't seamless. And since the web is stateless, there is no reason to think that staying on a given domain/path is more special than jumping to some other random path - the modern example of this is twitter. cheers, Mathew Robertson On 20 December 2011 15:42, Grant Baileygrant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au wrote: Alex, If the link is to an external site then personally, I prefer the link to open in a new window automatically. Also, not all devices make it easy for users to open a link in a new window on request. Regards, Grant Bailey On 20/12/2011 1:09 PM, Alex Mironov wrote: Hi I have been doing some research on expected behaviour of clicking on links from within a website to other external websites. Much of my research suggests that the recommended practice is to keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances. This gives users maximum control as they have the choice to left click on the link and open in a new tab/window. I have included a few links: http://uxdesign.**smashingmagazine.com/2008/07/** 01/should-links-open-in-new-**windows/http://uxdesign.smashingmagazine.com/2008/07/01/should-links-open-in-new-windows/ http://www.useit.com/alertbox/**9605.htmlhttp://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html I was wondering if anyone had any views/resources as to whether users should remain in the same window or should be taken to a new window/tab when they click on an external link? Regards Alex Mironov *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**mail/guidelines.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**join/unsubscribe.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberhelp@webstandardsgroup.**orgmemberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**mail/guidelines.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**join/unsubscribe.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberhelp@webstandardsgroup.**orgmemberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Phil Archer W3C eGovernment http://www.w3.org/egov/ http://philarcher.org @philarcher1 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
