[Zen] RE: Problems Accessing the Yahoo! Zen Forum
Good News! (Kind of...) I've been able to recreate the problem Audrey and Mookey reported. The Ooppss! Only a Moderator Can Do That response when entering the Home Page and clicking on CONVERSATIONS. I did it by creating a new test account for me that was not a Moderator. Now I just have to figure out why this happens to some accounts. Anyone else who has experienced this problem please let me know...Bill! ---In zen_forum@yahoogroups.com, yonyon...@gmail.com wrote: Bill, the email subscription has been working seemless. wouldn't have even known yahoo! changed their setup... alls well here. On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Mooky mookymo...@aol.com mailto:mookymo...@aol.com wrote: This is a test of replying to the topic using email. Using the Reply via Web Post link at the bottom of the email did not work. Once on the webpage it said Oops, you must be a moderator to perform this action.. The website will not let me see any topics whatsoever. It continually displays the same error. If only the incessant chatter of the mind could end so abruptly. Oops Enlightenment! Sent from my iPad On Oct 8, 2013, at 1:31 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Everyone... There has been a drastic drop-off in traffic since Yahoo! implemented a new format for its Groups including the Zen Forum. I assume this is mainly due to difficulties in accessing the forum and not a lack of interest. There are two ways to interface with the Yahoo! Zen Forum, by email and through the website. I'm ASSUMING the email interface, both sending and receiving, is working okay. If not please advise me of any problems. I myself have had some problems accessing the website but think I have figured out how to navigate around the in the new format. Here are some tips: There are two versions of the Home Page. One is just and Info page for non-members to view. It looks like the live, Home Page but most of the links, like CONVERSATIONS, are not live. I get this page sometimes when I navigate to the website. If you do get this page and the links aren't working you must SIGN-IN to Yahoo! You might have to sign-out and then sign-in again. I haven't diagnosed this problem to this detail yet, but signing-out and then signing-in works for me. Then I'm taken to the Home Page which has live links. Once you're in the Home Page with the live links you should go to the CONVERSATIONS link in the top left of the main section. Clicking on it will give you a pull-down menu with 4 choices, 2 of which are TOPICS and MESSAGES. Either of these will have the Messages, one arranged by Topic and one arranged separately and chronologically with the latest one on the top of the list. I won't go into more detail on all the other features. You can explore them yourselves, but the CONVERSATIONS with the TOPICS and MESSAGES o ptions are the one's you'll need to read and post Messages. Please give feedback on difficulties using this TOPIC (Thread) by just REPLYing to this Comment or other Comments in this TOPIC. Also you can always email me at billsm...@hhs1963.org mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org with any other comments or concerns. Thanks...I hope this helps and I hope to be seeing more posts soon...Bill!
[Zen] RE: Quantum Physics or Zen?
Well, thats kind of embarrassing. There was supposed to be a graphic in the message. It didnt show up and I dont know why...Bill! ---In zen_forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:Especially for Edgar..Bill! __._,_.___ Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
[Zen] RE: Test for Graphic...
I dont... ---In zen_forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:This is a graphic...Do you see it? __._,_.___ Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
[Zen] RE: Test for Graphic...
Second Try...img src="">height=50 width=100Do you see it now? ---In zen_forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:I dont... ---In zen_forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:This is a graphic...Do you see it? __._,_.___ Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
Re: [Zen] RE: Test for Graphic...
I see it only when I click on it... Edgar On Oct 1, 2013, at 6:12 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Second Try... img src=https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/q71/s720x720/1184838_10202240585519798_1292807694_n.jpg; height=50 width=100 Do you see it now? ---In zen_forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: I don't... ---In zen_forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: This is a graphic... Do you see it?
[Zen] RE: File - Zen Forum Posting Policy.pdf
...and I couldnt open this file. Did anyone figure out how to do that? ...Bill! ---In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zen_forum@yahoogroups.com wrote:File: Zen Forum Posting Policy.pdf Description : Yahoo! Zen Forum Posting Policy __._,_.___ Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
[Zen] Re: File - Zen Forum Posting Policy.pdf
Greetings I do not have the ability to access the site, although I am getting emails. /\ zendervish
[Zen] RE: can#39;t see messages, only Bodhi Man
Salik et al...In the new format when you get to the Home Page you will see a banner across the top with Bohdidharmas face.Below that there is a row of choices, one of which is CONVERSATIONS. Thats where the posts are kept.When you click on that youll get a choice of TOPICS, MESSAGES, TRENDING and SPAMTOPICS list all the posts (now called Messages) by TOPIC or what we used to call Threads.MESSAGES list all the posts separately in chronological order.TRENDING list the TOPICS that are the most popular (have received the most REPLYS)SPAM is empty right now. Im not sure if Yahoo! puts suspected SPAM in here for the Moderators to decide if it is SPAM or not; and Im not sure if all Members can see this folder.You should also check out the other high-level areas PHOTOS, EVENTS, POLLS and MORE (which has FILES, LINKS, DATABASE and ATTACHMENTS). Again, Im not sure if all Members can see or access all of these. Moderators (Edgar and I) can.While youre at it you should go to MORE and DATABASE and then find your name and make sure your Email Address is present and current.Hope this helpsBill! ---In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zen_forum@yahoogroups.com wrote:Cant see messages, any help ... man has Yahoo really shot themselves in the foot or what? __._,_.___ Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
[Zen] RE: New Yahoo! Group Format
I saw my second posting. It only took a minute or so to post so the first one must have been my errorMore about this new Yahoo! Groups format later...Meanwhile KEEP POSTING (or trying to...). ---In zen_forum@yahoogroups.com, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:I havent seen my last Reply Post to Edgars message yet, and its been a couple hours. Im re-posting it to se e if the problem is Yahoo!s or mine...All I said was that I will keep this image but will re-position it a little - which Ive already doneBill! ---In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zen_forum@yahoogroups.com wrote:Bill,Dont change it! Its the most wonderful Zen photo Ive seen and it is still viewable from certain entranc es.Edgar On Sep 24, 2013, at 7:38 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Okay! I finally figured out how to get into the management area and changed the Kremlin Home Page photo. Were going to have to try to find another picture though. One which has a different orientation and is more wide than tall to fit better. Im requesting suggestions on this.Also I see the whole format has changed. Ive got tomorrow off (that means Im not playing golf) so Ill navigate through it and try to learn how to use it more efficiently.Please keep posting..Bill! __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
[Zen] RE: Re: New (unfortunate) Look, etc., of the Group Website
Bill!,Howdy, I use Firefox under Windows XP and Windows 8, on several machines.--Joe --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zen_forum@yahoogroups.com wrote:Joe, What browser are you using? ...Bill! __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
[Zen] Re: New (unfortunate) Look, etc., of the Group Website
All, So far I've only discovered I'm caught in a Catch-22 conundrum concerning my efforts to change the Kremlin photo on our new Yahoo Info Page. The problem is that I can only go to the URL and view the new page I am not signed-in; and when I am not signed-in I cannot use my awesome powers as a co-moderator. When I sign-in I am then taken to the old page which needs no modification. I'll keep trying, but for now I think you'll just have to put up with it - or give me some suggestions... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: I see now - Firefox... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, What browser are you using? ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
[Zen] RE: Re: New (unfortunate) Look, etc., of the Group Website
Thanks for the very good specificity in your post, Bill! (!)When I use the URl you gave and put it in the command line of Firefox, I see, regrettably, theKremlin.And the URL in the command line of the browser at that time changes to, and remains:http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Zen_Forum/infoThe neo field is disconcerting. Something funny has been thrown in our lap(s).TNX!,Best,--Joe zen_forum@yahoogroups.com wrote:Joe, et al... What do you see when you go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ ? Do you see the old Bodhidharma page or the new Kremlin one? If you see the new Kremlin one, what is the URL of your browser at that time? ...Bill! __._,_.___ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___
[Zen] Re: New (unfortunate) Look, etc., of the Group Website
Joe, What browser are you using? ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
[Zen] Re: New (unfortunate) Look, etc., of the Group Website
I see now - Firefox... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, What browser are you using? ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
[Zen] Re: New (unfortunate) Look, etc., of the Group Website
Joe, I'm trying to analyze the change to determine if I can change it back, or to something else. The problem I'm having is I don't see it when I come to the Zen Forum. I see the old view with the drawing of Bodhidharma. The only way I can get to see the new 'Kremlin' view is to log out of Yahoo! and then do a Google or Bing search on Yahoo! Zen Forum. Then I'm taken to the Kremlin page, but all the links (like Messages) are inoperable. When I then sign-in again I'm taken to the old page. What is your experience? ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
[Zen] Re: New (unfortunate) Look, etc., of the Group Website
Joe, et al... What do you see when you go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ ? Do you see the old Bodhidharma page or the new Kremlin one? If you see the new Kremlin one, what is the URL of your browser at that time? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Joe, I'm trying to analyze the change to determine if I can change it back, or to something else. The problem I'm having is I don't see it when I come to the Zen Forum. I see the old view with the drawing of Bodhidharma. The only way I can get to see the new 'Kremlin' view is to log out of Yahoo! and then do a Google or Bing search on Yahoo! Zen Forum. Then I'm taken to the Kremlin page, but all the links (like Messages) are inoperable. When I then sign-in again I'm taken to the old page. What is your experience? ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
[Zen] Re: Egolessness -
Merle, Probably not, but survival is not the goal or purpose of zen...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: is it possible to survive day to day in our present civilisation egoless?...merle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egolessness Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
[Zen] RE: Re: changed appearance and functionality
Edgar, et al... This is very strange. When I view the Home Page using my regular browser I am taken to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/and it's the old Home Page. This page seems unchanged to me. When I view the Home Page using the a different browser I'm taken to http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Zen_Forum/info http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Zen_Forum/info and it's the new Home Page with a view of tops of buildings in the Kremlin. This page has changed but looks like it's a page that's given me before I sign in to the group, but I'm really not even sure about that. I have no explanation for this. When you go to the web page who sees the old page (with a likeness of Bodhidharma)? And who sees the new Kremlin page? And what browser are you using? And what is the URL (web address) located at the top of your browser? Thanks...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: Bill, Yes, the homepage has been totally screwed up by somebody. The great Daruma image is replaced by RedSquare. Do you think this is something we can fix? Edgar On Sep 11, 2013, at 3:08 AM, Merle Lester wrote: hi joe..no rain, early spring..hot yesterday herald first fires... in this hawkesbury/ blue mountains area...cheers merle Hi, Bill!, and thank you for the kind welcome. I don't see the usual Zen Forum masthead: I see a view of the onion-domes of the Kremlin, an image set to serve to represent all YAHOO! Groups. Something's changed while I've been snoozing... . ;-) I suspect that YAHOO! has been dithering-about around the corners. If you don't see this, then I may just have to puzzle-out the strange change myself. I've made no changes to the laptop, other than of course the famous bi-weekly Tuesday morning Microsoft Windows updates: I run XP on this main machine, and have a couple others running Windows 8 on touchscreen Dell 'mosheens', which I use for science, and optical-design mostly, at home. Wishing you and everyone Strong practice, and a good Indian -- Native-American? -- Summer. And, to Merle, a good soon-to-be-Spring. Equinox in 11 days, or so. Celebrate! Or, get ready to. To dance around the September-Pole... . ;-) Be well! Take good care of your realization, --Joe --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zen_forum@yahoogroups.com wrote: Joe, Welcome back. Traffic on the forum has been slow and muted lately. Is that what you mean? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] RE: Re: changed appearance and functionality
Bill, I'm using Mac Safari browser. When I click on 'visit your group' at the bottom of a post I am taken to http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Zen_Forum/info with Kremlin photo. When I try to go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ I get page doesn't exist error. When I go to yahoo groups and search for Zen_forum I see a listing come up with a little thumbnail of the Daruma image but when I click on it I'm taken back to the Kremlin again. Edgar On Sep 12, 2013, at 3:58 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, et al... This is very strange. When I view the Home Page using my regular browser I am taken to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ and it's the old Home Page. This page seems unchanged to me. When I view the Home Page using the a different browser I'm taken to http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Zen_Forum/info and it's the new Home Page with a view of tops of buildings in the Kremlin. This page has changed but looks like it's a page that's given me before I sign in to the group, but I'm really not even sure about that. I have no explanation for this. When you go to the web page who sees the old page (with a likeness of Bodhidharma)? And who sees the new Kremlin page? And what browser are you using? And what is the URL (web address) located at the top of your browser? Thanks...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: Bill, Yes, the homepage has been totally screwed up by somebody. The great Daruma image is replaced by RedSquare. Do you think this is something we can fix? Edgar On Sep 11, 2013, at 3:08 AM, Merle Lester wrote: hi joe..no rain, early spring..hot yesterday herald first fires... in this hawkesbury/ blue mountains area...cheers merle Hi, Bill!, and thank you for the kind welcome. I don't see the usual Zen Forum masthead: I see a view of the onion-domes of the Kremlin, an image set to serve to represent all YAHOO! Groups. Something's changed while I've been snoozing... . ;-) I suspect that YAHOO! has been dithering-about around the corners. If you don't see this, then I may just have to puzzle-out the strange change myself. I've made no changes to the laptop, other than of course the famous bi-weekly Tuesday morning Microsoft Windows updates: I run XP on this main machine, and have a couple others running Windows 8 on touchscreen Dell 'mosheens', which I use for science, and optical-design mostly, at home. Wishing you and everyone Strong practice, and a good Indian -- Native-American? -- Summer. And, to Merle, a good soon-to-be-Spring. Equinox in 11 days, or so. Celebrate! Or, get ready to. To dance around the September-Pole... . ;-) Be well! Take good care of your realization, --Joe --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zen_forum@yahoogroups.com wrote: Joe, Welcome back. Traffic on the forum has been slow and muted lately. Is that what you mean? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] RE: Re: changed appearance and functionality
hi joe..no rain, early spring..hot yesterday herald first fires... in this hawkesbury/ blue mountains area...cheers merle Hi, Bill!, and thank you for the kind welcome. I don't see the usual Zen Forum masthead: I see a view of the onion-domes of the Kremlin, an image set to serve to represent all YAHOO! Groups. Something's changed while I've been snoozing... . ;-) I suspect that YAHOO! has been dithering-about around the corners. If you don't see this, then I may just have to puzzle-out the strange change myself. I've made no changes to the laptop, other than of course the famous bi-weekly Tuesday morning Microsoft Windows updates: I run XP on this main machine, and have a couple others running Windows 8 on touchscreen Dell 'mosheens', which I use for science, and optical-design mostly, at home. Wishing you and everyone Strong practice, and a good Indian -- Native-American? -- Summer. And, to Merle, a good soon-to-be-Spring. Equinox in 11 days, or so. Celebrate! Or, get ready to. To dance around the September-Pole... . ;-) Be well! Take good care of your realization, --Joe --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, zen_forum@yahoogroups.com wrote: Joe, Welcome back. Traffic on the forum has been slow and muted lately. Is that what you mean? ...Bill!
[Zen] Re: changed appearance and functionality
Joe, Welcome back. Traffic on the forum has been slow and muted lately. Is that what you mean? ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: changed appearance and functionality
hi joe...merle Joe, Welcome back. Traffic on the forum has been slow and muted lately. Is that what you mean? ...Bill! __
[Zen] Re: changed appearance and functionality
Joe, When I go the the Yahoo! Zen Forum Home Page it looks the same to me. I did hear Yahoo! changed the font of it's logo. They showed the old and new on CNN and they are virtually the same. I think the new logo's font is a little thicker. Let me know if when you go to the Home Page it looks different...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
[Zen] Re: Illusions
Oops! Everything after the SECOND He's saying... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Here's a nice one posted especially for Edgar for two reasons: 1. to see if he's still around2. to get his comment. I generally like the message, but could do without everything after He's saying... up to the last sentence. I like the last sentence. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
[Zen] Re: File - Zen Forum Posting Policy.pdf
All Members, I think this posting policy is automatically re-posted the first of every month. This posting is not an indication that there have been violations lately. It's also sent to every new member when they register. Just FYI...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com wrote: File: Zen Forum Posting Policy.pdf Description : Yahoo! Zen Forum Posting Policy Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Notice the log that is in your own eye?
Suresh, Temporarily halting what Tolle has described below as the incessant stream of involuntary and compulsive thinking and the emotions that accompany it is exactly what zen teaching and practice techniques such as zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc.., are employed to do. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@... wrote: THE CORE OF EGO Most people are so completely identified with the voice in the head the incessant stream of involuntary and compulsive thinking and the emotions that accompany it that we may describe them as being possessed by their mind. As long as you are completely unaware of this you take the thinker to be who you are. This is the egoic mind. We call it egoic because there is a sense of self, of I (ego), in every thought every memory, every interpretation, opinion, viewpoint, reaction, emotion. This is unconsciousness, spiritually speaking. Your thinking, the content of your mind, is of course conditioned by the past: your upbringing, culture, family background, and so on. The central core of all your mind activity consists of certain repetitive and persistent thoughts, emotions, and reactive patterns that you identify with most strongly. This entity is the ego itself. In most cases, when you say I, it is the ego speaking, not you, as we have seen. It consists of thought and emotion, of a bundle of memories you identify with as me and my story, of habitual roles you play without knowing it, of collective identifications such as nationality, religion, race, social class, or political allegiance. It also contains personal identifications, not only with possessions, but also with opinions, external appearance, longstanding resentments, or concepts of yourself as better than or not as good as others, as a success or failure. The content of the ego varies from person to person, but in every ego the same structure operates. In other words: Egos only differ on the surface. Deep down they are all the same. In what way are they the same? They live on identification and separation. When you live through the mindmade self comprised of thought and emotion that is the ego, the basis for your identity is precarious because thought and emotion are by their very nature ephemeral, fleeting. So every ego is continuously struggling for survival, trying to protect and enlarge itself. To uphold the thought, it needs the opposite thought of the other. The conceptual I cannot survive without the conceptual other. The others are most other when I see them as my enemies. At one end of this scale of this unconscious egoic pattern lies the egoic compulsive habit of faultfinding and complaining about others. Jesus referred to it when he said, Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? At the other end of the scale, there is physical violence between individuals and warfare between nations. In the Bible, Jesus' question remains unanswered, but the answer is, of course: Because when I criticize or condemn another, it makes me feel bigger, superior. -- ECKHART TOLLE Thanks and best regards J.Suresh New No.3, Old No.7, Chamiers road - 1st Lane, Alwarpet, Chennai - 600018 Ph: 044 42030947 Mobile: 91 9884071738 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
who said god was a preconceived idea? merle Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto preconceived ideas? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Larry, I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally absurd notion? Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- Larry Maher -- Larry Maher
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
good one..merle I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally absurd notion? Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- Larry Maher
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Not saying God is precon-ed or not precon-ed to any human being; but but but a lot of us are products of our culture, read and accepted beliefs, and probably some hard-wired DNA. Those combinations lead to ideas, icons, slogans etc. All those are blockages to God if you truly want to find him. I know little but I do know one thing spirituality is not what we THINK it is! On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 4:16 AM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote: ** who said god was a preconceived idea? merle Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto preconceived ideas? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Larry, I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome?[image: *:)) laughing] or some other equally absurd notion?[image: *#-o d'oh!] Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- *Larry Maher* -- *Larry Maher* -- *Larry Maher*
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merle,br/br/If you have no concrete, empirical evidence of a creator god then it's all just preconceived and presupposed. In other words - made up.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
and pray larry what doeth thee think it is..this spirituality...merle Not saying God is precon-ed or not precon-ed to any human being; but but but a lot of us are products of our culture, read and accepted beliefs, and probably some hard-wired DNA. Those combinations lead to ideas, icons, slogans etc. All those are blockages to God if you truly want to find him. I know little but I do know one thing spirituality is not what we THINK it is! On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 4:16 AM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: who said god was a preconceived idea? merle Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto preconceived ideas? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Larry, I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally absurd notion? Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- Larry Maher -- Larry Maher -- Larry Maher
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Freeing the mind is a myth. What cannot be found, cannot be bound. The imagined mind, imagines itself otherwise. KG On 8/27/2013 1:53 AM, larry maher wrote: Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto preconceived ideas? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk mailto:uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Larry, I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad **
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
what was?...merle I thought it was a 60s flashback thing.. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 9:42:54 AM Merle, Did you just have a birthday or something? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?...  merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally absurd notion?  Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM   mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle  Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM   mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle  And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote:  Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally absurd notion? Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
RE: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merle,br/br/what the hell did you think god was?...br/br/I'm not sure, but does he wear the Welsh number 15 shirt and convert the winning kick against England last year?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- * From: * Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body * Sent: * Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome?[image: *:)) laughing] or some other equally absurd notion?[image: *#-o d'oh!] Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- * From: * Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body * Sent: * Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- * From: * Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body * Sent: * Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- *Larry Maher*
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Larry,br/br/I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto preconceived ideas? On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Larry, I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' L On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do you?..merle Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?... merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome?[image: *:)) laughing] or some other equally absurd notion?[image: *#-o d'oh!] Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike -- *Larry Maher* -- *Larry Maher*
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Most people of such delusional persuasion also use 'creation' as a noun. KG On 8/25/2013 1:01 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
And a 6000 year old one, at that.br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
yes... but we do it anyway..so let's have fun doing it..merle Merle, The idea behind self-realisation to to stop the weaving and deconstruct. You should know that.. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:31:32 AM mike...it is the nature of the beast : human... to construct weave and create.. we do not live by bread alone..you know that...merle Merle They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some relative truth. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:40:32 AM mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle Bill!, Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM Merle, Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle  Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
delusional...huh?...wait till the sun goes down on you!! merle Most people of such delusional persuasion also use 'creation' as a noun. KG On 8/25/2013 1:01 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake? Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
The creating and identifying of the ego as self is what creates suffering: the First Noble Truth.br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
which self?..merle The creating and identifying of the ego as self is what creates suffering: the First Noble Truth. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 8:10:17 AM yes... but we do it anyway..so let's have fun doing it..merle Merle, The idea behind self-realisation to to stop the weaving and deconstruct. You should know that.. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:31:32 AM mike...it is the nature of the beast : human... to construct weave and create.. we do not live by bread alone..you know that...merle Merle They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some relative truth. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:40:32 AM mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle Bill!, Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM Merle, Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle  Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle ÃÆ'Ã
[Zen] Re: the human body
Merle, Did you just have a birthday or something? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  rubbish...you missed the point then . the forest is god..the forest and the people are one.. .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... god is life... what the hell did you think god was?...  merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally absurd notion?  Watched it. Yep, no god. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM   mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle  Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM   mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle  And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote:  Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: the human body
I thought it was a 60s flashback thing..br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
bill... not yet..it's coming to a store near you next month...merle Merle, Did you just have a birthday or something? ...Bill! .
[Zen] Re: the human body
Merle, I was just wondering where you got all those emoticans you started using lately... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: bill... not yet..it's coming to a store near you next month...merle Merle, Did you just have a birthday or something? ...Bill! . Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
bill...they are in yahoo ... ..merle Merle, I was just wondering where you got all those emoticans you started using lately... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: bill... not yet..it's coming to a store near you next month...merle Merle, Did you just have a birthday or something? ...Bill! .
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion. On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote: ** from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form of
RE: [Zen] Re: the human body
Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Larry,br/br/Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to create a Creator.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Yes, yes totally agree. I just mentioned reading years ago that the Buddha said believe whatever's easier while following the middle way. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:27 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: ** Larry, Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to create a Creator. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- * From: * larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body * Sent: * Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:20:48 AM Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion. On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote: ** from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
mike..for you it might..for others it is a source of comfort..don't be so harsh..merle Larry, Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to create a Creator. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:20:48 AM Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion. On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle Bill!, Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM Merle, Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle  Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone
[Zen] Re: the human body
Larry, Zen is not a religion and does not recognize a god. Buddhism is a religion, IMO, so you might be confusing the two: zen and Buddhism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, larry maher lcmaher22@... wrote: Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion. On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...wrote: ** from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: à hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle à Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâà bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle Ãâà Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
interesting bill..your streaks ahead in consciousness..merle Mike, No and Yes... The no part is that I experienced Buddha Nature on my own before encountering zen. I'm sure we all have. When we were infants before our intellect was developed enough to create the delusion of duality/plurality I believe we were experiencing Buddha Nature. Also, even later, when we became completely absorbed in something, like sports or art or nature, we also may have experienced Buddha Nature. In my case however I just did not know what it was and its significance. The yes part is that it was first reading about zen (Alan Watts) and then formal Zen Buddhist training (Japanese Rinzai and Soto schools) that enabled me to rediscover Buddha Nature, learn to purposely experience it, appreciate its significance and begin to integrate it more fully into my daily life. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merlebr/br/They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some relative truth.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merle,br/br/Utility is no measure of Truth.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: buddha nature
Merle, Zen Buddhism (Japanese), Ch'an Buddhism (Chinese) and Soen Buddhism (Korean) are all very similar and to the best of my knowledge (which is not that great in this area) share the same foundations and basic teachings. There are some differences though. JMJM on this forum is a Ch'an teacher and could maybe tell you about more of those. Because of JMJM's presence on the forum I sometimes include Ch'an in when speaking about zen, especially when I firmly believe the topics I'm discussing are common to both. So for now let's just drop Ch'an so not to be confusing. I think what's confusing you here is the term 'Buddha Nature'. It has the word 'Buddha' in it so I think it's hard for you to separate any notion of 'Buddha Nature' from Buddhism proper. I use the term 'Buddha Nature' because it's a fairly universally accepted term throughout the zen community and comes up fairly often in zen literature. The term 'Buddha Nature' is just a label or name given to the 'direct, non-dualistic experience of reality'. It's also been called 'Original Face' which is less Buddhist-specific, and a lot of other things which I won't go into here. In any even this experience is part of the original nature of all sentient beings, and was so long before Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) walked the earth. It is I believe what Buddha experienced while sitting under the Bodhi tree and went on to teach about; but Buddha isn't the only or even the first one in history to teach these things. Buddha taught about his experience through a Hindu perspective and used Hindu symbolisms and language to do so. Jesus I believe also had this same experience and then went out and taught about it from a Jewish perspective using Jewish symbolisms and language. So...it's not so much the 'Buddha' part of Buddha Nature that I treasure, but that is just the term I use to describe it. Think of it as just 'original nature' which is a quality of all sentient beings. The 'original' part IMO (and this is a controversial opinion) means 'before the encroachment of the intellect and the rising of duality' You can read more about what I think about this at: http://www.billsmart.com/writing/zen/self/self.htm ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   Bill...still confused...so zen is  chan...?..if you wish to experience buddha nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved...  so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has nothing to do with buddhism?...  merle  Merle, Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ààfrom what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle àMerle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàhallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle ÃâàMerle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it
Re: [Zen] Re: new member
Yes Merle, you could say acceptance is 'good' in certain circumstances, or that it is of use/value to the individual. That's the point. As such it remains a subtle form of attachment. I am not judging this, or suggesting it not be pursued. I am only pointing out the dual nature of grasping/rejecting regardless of intents and purposes. KG On 8/23/2013 7:31 PM, Merle Lester wrote: disagree..there is more to acceptance than meets the eye..this is the superficial version you are suggesting..merle On 8/22/2013 5:12 AM, Merle Lester wrote: ..when in reality it is a matter of acceptance merle Acceptance, of anything, is rejection of change. KG
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
On 8/24/2013 2:27 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Larry, Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to create a Creator. Mike Even the need some feel to identify or creating a creator is an integral aspect of this ever-presently unfolding creation. Duality, always a matter of appearances. Zen, no-thing at all. Tao you see it, Tao you don't. KG
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
God is no different than a haemorrhoid cream. I like it!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
I am very very impressed with how you lived your life. I found this, well, to be frank, all too late. I knew about it, read about it, even tried it a few times but I didn't get more interested until I was desperate. Thanks, Larry PS I've sort of belonged to a open internet group with a terrific moderator. It's called AYPsite.com. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:07 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: ** Mike, No and Yes... The no part is that I experienced Buddha Nature on my own before encountering zen. I'm sure we all have. When we were infants before our intellect was developed enough to create the delusion of duality/plurality I believe we were experiencing Buddha Nature. Also, even later, when we became completely absorbed in something, like sports or art or nature, we also may have experienced Buddha Nature. In my case however I just did not know what it was and its significance. The yes part is that it was first reading about zen (Alan Watts) and then formal Zen Buddhist training (Japanese Rinzai and Soto schools) that enabled me to rediscover Buddha Nature, learn to purposely experience it, appreciate its significance and begin to integrate it more fully into my daily life. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- *Larry Maher*
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
cynical mike..tut tut..shame on you..merle God is no different than a haemorrhoid cream. I like it! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 1:32:29 PM And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: buddha nature
bill...thank you for the clarification... merle Merle, Zen Buddhism (Japanese), Ch'an Buddhism (Chinese) and Soen Buddhism (Korean) are all very similar and to the best of my knowledge (which is not that great in this area) share the same foundations and basic teachings. There are some differences though. JMJM on this forum is a Ch'an teacher and could maybe tell you about more of those. Because of JMJM's presence on the forum I sometimes include Ch'an in when speaking about zen, especially when I firmly believe the topics I'm discussing are common to both. So for now let's just drop Ch'an so not to be confusing. I think what's confusing you here is the term 'Buddha Nature'. It has the word 'Buddha' in it so I think it's hard for you to separate any notion of 'Buddha Nature' from Buddhism proper. I use the term 'Buddha Nature' because it's a fairly universally accepted term throughout the zen community and comes up fairly often in zen literature. The term 'Buddha Nature' is just a label or name given to the 'direct, non-dualistic experience of reality'. It's also been called 'Original Face' which is less Buddhist-specific, and a lot of other things which I won't go into here. In any even this experience is part of the original nature of all sentient beings, and was so long before Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) walked the earth. It is I believe what Buddha experienced while sitting under the Bodhi tree and went on to teach about; but Buddha isn't the only or even the first one in history to teach these things. Buddha taught about his experience through a Hindu perspective and used Hindu symbolisms and language to do so. Jesus I believe also had this same experience and then went out and taught about it from a Jewish perspective using Jewish symbolisms and language. So...it's not so much the 'Buddha' part of Buddha Nature that I treasure, but that is just the term I use to describe it. Think of it as just 'original nature' which is a quality of all sentient beings. The 'original' part IMO (and this is a controversial opinion) means 'before the encroachment of the intellect and the rising of duality' You can read more about what I think about this at: http://www.billsmart.com/writing/zen/self/self.htm ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   Bill...still confused...so zen is  chan...?..if you wish to experience buddha nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved...  so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has nothing to do with buddhism?...  merle  Merle, Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle  Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
what is AYPsite.com? merle I am very very impressed with how you lived your life. I found this, well, to be frank, all too late. I knew about it, read about it, even tried it a few times but I didn't get more interested until I was desperate. Thanks, Larry PS I've sort of belonged to a open internet group with a terrific moderator. It's called AYPsite.com. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:07 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Mike, No and Yes... The no part is that I experienced Buddha Nature on my own before encountering zen. I'm sure we all have. When we were infants before our intellect was developed enough to create the delusion of duality/plurality I believe we were experiencing Buddha Nature. Also, even later, when we became completely absorbed in something, like sports or art or nature, we also may have experienced Buddha Nature. In my case however I just did not know what it was and its significance. The yes part is that it was first reading about zen (Alan Watts) and then formal Zen Buddhist training (Japanese Rinzai and Soto schools) that enabled me to rediscover Buddha Nature, learn to purposely experience it, appreciate its significance and begin to integrate it more fully into my daily life. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- Larry Maher
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
mike...it is the nature of the beast : human... to construct weave and create.. we do not live by bread alone..you know that...merle Merle They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some relative truth. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:40:32 AM mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle Bill!, Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM Merle, Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your daily life. These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle  Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature
Re: [Zen] Re: buddha nature
so self is no self but the other..hence we need to refresh our ideas and return to the garden of eden... the brazilian rainforest tribe eh?..merle Merle, You can read more about what I think about this at: http://www.billsmart.com/writing/zen/self/self.htm ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merle,br/br/Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
But they're both so comforting!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Merle,br/br/The idea behind self-realisation to to stop the weaving and deconstruct. You should know that..br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle Merle, Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM mike..explain yourself please.. and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle And comfort is only sought when dis-eased. KG On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Merle, Utility is no measure of Truth. Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: the human body
Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle àMerle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle ÃâàMerle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàhave you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàthe human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàstate that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâài have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and
[Zen] Re: the human body
Merle, The experience of a toothache is not a delusion. It is real. It is in fact a characteristic of Buddha Nature. Classifying the experience as 'pain' and judging it to be 'bad' is the delusion. More generally put, experience is real. Classifying and judging are perceptions and products of your human intellect. These are delusions (not real, not experience). ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is real and needs attention?...merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle àMerle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle ÃâàMerle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàhave you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàthe human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàstate that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâài have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmy zen question is thus: ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàto be
[Zen] Re: new member
Bill, o.k. I at first will investigate before i write ove rmy experiences. aham --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Aham, IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience Buddha Nature (to see things as they really are in Vipassana-speak) and then to incorporate that experience into your daily life. These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - which in Japanese means 'sit zen'. Although there are many beginning techniques used to learn to do zazen and the most popular does involve using the breath as does Vipassana; but all zen techniques (zazen, koan study, chanting, bowing, etc...) are all geared to bring you eventually to a meditative state called 'shikantaza' which means 'just sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese. It is the same (I believe) as what the Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'. It is in this state that you may experience Buddha Nature (see things as they really are). From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of similarities with zen, and of course there should be if they are both taking you to the same place. There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana than I, and also participants that probably have a different opinion of what zen is than I've just wrote out. I hope you'll hear from them. Welcome to the Zen Forum... ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Zen - Introduction to zen practice / full version - Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi - YouTube
Merle, thanks. aham --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: for the new member..welcome aham... cheers merle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL2XUTeoUsM Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Fw: Zen Mountain Monastery: Dharma Discourses by Daido Roshi
Merle, thnaks. aham --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: aham.. check this out...cheers merle http://mro.org/zmm/teachings/discourses.php Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: new member
JM, as a principle I agree. Aham --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... wrote: Dear Aham, Zen is about letting our inner divine, labeled as Buddha Nature, to shine through. Let it be our guide in our daily life. And the only way that it may shine through depends on the purification of our physical, mental and spiritual hindrances. Because our inner divine, same as the external almighty, is all knowing, all wise, all powerful, all harmonious. JM On 8/22/2013 2:07 AM, Bill! wrote: Aham, IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience Buddha Nature (to see things as they really are in Vipassana-speak) and then to incorporate that experience into your daily life. These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - which in Japanese means 'sit zen'. Although there are many beginning techniques used to learn to do zazen and the most popular does involve using the breath as does Vipassana; but all zen techniques (zazen, koan study, chanting, bowing, etc...) are all geared to bring you eventually to a meditative state called 'shikantaza' which means 'just sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese. It is the same (I believe) as what the Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'. It is in this state that you may experience Buddha Nature (see things as they really are). From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of similarities with zen, and of course there should be if they are both taking you to the same place. There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana than I, and also participants that probably have a different opinion of what zen is than I've just wrote out. I hope you'll hear from them. Welcome to the Zen Forum... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, reconceiving1942 aham@ wrote: Hi, I am new here in this group. I am familiar with some meditation techiques, where vipassana became the strongest one for me. What exactly is zen? is zen a mediation technique or a quality of life? If so, can any one describe this quality? Aham Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: new member
On 8/22/2013 5:12 AM, Merle Lester wrote: ..when in reality it is a matter of acceptance merle Acceptance, of anything, is rejection of change. KG
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Can anyone help me? I'm new here. I was just wondering who the forum head was? If the answer is no one could I please find out who Merle or Bill is? The one with the 45 yrs of meditation. I won't bother anyone, am just trying to figure this out. Thank you Larry On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote: ** bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is real and needs attention?...merle Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'‚ the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut ÃÆ'‚ my zen question is thus: ÃÆ'‚ to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? ÃÆ'‚ merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 -- *Larry Maher*
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
Larry, Bill and me, Edgar, are co-moderators of the group... Edgar On Aug 23, 2013, at 12:32 PM, larry maher wrote: Can anyone help me? I'm new here. I was just wondering who the forum head was? If the answer is no one could I please find out who Merle or Bill is? The one with the 45 yrs of meditation. I won't bother anyone, am just trying to figure this out. Thank you Larry On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is real and needs attention?...merle Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'‚ the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut ÃÆ'‚ my zen question is thus: ÃÆ'‚ to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? ÃÆ'‚ merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
[Zen] Re: the human body
Larry, The Zen Forum has no 'head' or 'leader', but does have two co-moderators who might be considered that for administrative purposes. They are Edgar and me (Bill!). The forum 'owner' is Al, but he is no longer active and very rarely posts. I am a 67-year old US citizen who lives in Thailand. I was first introduced to zen in the late 1960's and went through about 10 years of formal and informal training as a student of two Japanese Zen masters - one of the Rinzai school and one Soto. You can find out more about me at www.billsmart.com. I'll leave it to any others on the forum to describe themselves if they wish to do so. Now, how about you? What's your story vis-a-vis your interest in zen? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, larry maher lcmaher22@... wrote: Can anyone help me? I'm new here. I was just wondering who the forum head was? If the answer is no one could I please find out who Merle or Bill is? The one with the 45 yrs of meditation. I won't bother anyone, am just trying to figure this out. Thank you Larry On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...wrote: ** bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is real and needs attention?...merle Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: à bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle à Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâà bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle Ãâà Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the
[Zen] Re: clarification
Merle, The 'rule of thumb' is that you should not beat your wife with a stick that is thicker than your thumb. That is an old English law and the origin of the term 'rule of thumb'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  meaning what bill?. clarification please...merle  If you beat you wife you must go by the rule of thumb...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àsuresh..it is illegal to hit a child in many àcountries... would you hit your wife? try humour...he hit you first... so you hit back to get him to speak?.. i'd go to a doctor..maybe there is a medical condition..you have a computer..do some searching on net... a hug and a cuddle and a tickle might work heaps better than a slap... .i was a high school teacher for 30 years and raised 2 kids and have 2 grandkids 5 and 3...never hit any of them..and never felt like it..i rarely get angry... what makes me quietly angry? àignorance and greed..though even that i see is part àand parcel of the human condition that many folk just can't help themselves..take care..all the best..merle à--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, varamtha@ wrote: Dear sirs, Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I become very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he used to parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name. For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but can't do by them selves. He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word came out of his mouth. I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I have tortured him. I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him. I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this confession to this group. Pray god for my younger son to speak soon. I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders. What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction unless my children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, but only worried about younger son. Please pray. Suresh Sent from BlackBerryî on Airtel Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle Merle, Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult. This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle  Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny
Re: [Zen] Re: clarification
bill...the idea of beating at all is disgusting..merle Merle, The 'rule of thumb' is that you should not beat your wife with a stick that is thicker than your thumb. That is an old English law and the origin of the term 'rule of thumb'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  meaning what bill?. clarification please...merle  If you beat you wife you must go by the rule of thumb...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  suresh..it is illegal to hit a child in many  countries... would you hit your wife? try humour...he hit you first... so you hit back to get him to speak?.. i'd go to a doctor..maybe there is a medical condition..you have a computer..do some searching on net... a hug and a cuddle and a tickle might work heaps better than a slap... .i was a high school teacher for 30 years and raised 2 kids and have 2 grandkids 5 and 3...never hit any of them..and never felt like it..i rarely get angry... what makes me quietly angry?  ignorance and greed..though even that i see is part  and parcel of the human condition that many folk just can't help themselves..take care..all the best..merle  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, varamtha@ wrote: Dear sirs, Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I become very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he used to parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name. For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but can't do by them selves. He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word came out of his mouth. I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I have tortured him. I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him. I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this confession to this group. Pray god for my younger son to speak soon. I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders. What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction unless my children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, but only worried about younger son. Please pray. Suresh Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle  Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go.. the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation  state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?  i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut  my zen question is thus:  to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint?  merle  Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
[Zen] Re: the human body
Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àhave you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle àMerle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃâàMerle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..Ãâàthe human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation Ãâàstate that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? Ãâài have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut Ãâàmy zen question is thus: Ãâàto be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? Ãâàmerle ÃâàMerle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle  Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go.. the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation  state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?  i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut  my zen question is thus:  to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint?  merle  Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
[Zen] Re: Zen - Introduction to zen practice / full version - Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi - YouTube
for the new member..welcome aham... cheers merle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL2XUTeoUsM
[Zen] Re: new member
Aham, IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience Buddha Nature (to see things as they really are in Vipassana-speak) and then to incorporate that experience into your daily life. These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - which in Japanese means 'sit zen'. Although there are many beginning techniques used to learn to do zazen and the most popular does involve using the breath as does Vipassana; but all zen techniques (zazen, koan study, chanting, bowing, etc...) are all geared to bring you eventually to a meditative state called 'shikantaza' which means 'just sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese. It is the same (I believe) as what the Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'. It is in this state that you may experience Buddha Nature (see things as they really are). From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of similarities with zen, and of course there should be if they are both taking you to the same place. There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana than I, and also participants that probably have a different opinion of what zen is than I've just wrote out. I hope you'll hear from them. Welcome to the Zen Forum... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, reconceiving1942 aham@... wrote: Hi, I am new here in this group. I am familiar with some meditation techiques, where vipassana became the strongest one for me. What exactly is zen? is zen a mediation technique or a quality of life? If so, can any one describe this quality? Aham Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: the human body
Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle àMerle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàhave you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle ÃâàMerle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàthe human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàstate that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâài have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmy zen question is thus: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàto be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmerle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: new member
question bill...do any of us really see things as they really are?...and who is the judge and jury to say that this has happened to one? i think it might be a goal to work towards however individuals who achieve this fully would be few and far between already you complain of pain as a burden in a previous post...when in reality it is a matter of acceptance merle Aham, IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience Buddha Nature (to see things as they really are in Vipassana-speak) and then to incorporate that experience into your daily life. These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - which in Japanese means 'sit zen'. Although there are many beginning techniques used to learn to do zazen and the most popular does involve using the breath as does Vipassana; but all zen techniques (zazen, koan study, chanting, bowing, etc...) are all geared to bring you eventually to a meditative state called 'shikantaza' which means 'just sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese. It is the same (I believe) as what the Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'. It is in this state that you may experience Buddha Nature (see things as they really are). From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of similarities with zen, and of course there should be if they are both taking you to the same place. There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana than I, and also participants that probably have a different opinion of what zen is than I've just wrote out. I hope you'll hear from them. Welcome to the Zen Forum... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, reconceiving1942 aham@... wrote: Hi, I am new here in this group. I am familiar with some meditation techiques, where vipassana became the strongest one for me. What exactly is zen? is zen a mediation technique or a quality of life? If so, can any one describe this quality? Aham
[Zen] Re: new member
Merle, Seeing things as they really are is another way of saying Buddha Nature, at least that's how I interpret it. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   question bill...do any of us really see things as they really are?...and who is the judge and jury to say that this has happened to one? i think it might be a goal to work towards however individuals who achieve this fully would be few and far  between  already you complain of pain as a burden in a previous post...when in reality it is a matter of acceptance merle  Aham, IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience Buddha Nature (to see things as they really are in Vipassana-speak) and then to incorporate that experience into your daily life. These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - which in Japanese means 'sit zen'. Although there are many beginning techniques used to learn to do zazen and the most popular does involve using the breath as does Vipassana; but all zen techniques (zazen, koan study, chanting, bowing, etc...) are all geared to bring you eventually to a meditative state called 'shikantaza' which means 'just sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese. It is the same (I believe) as what the Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'. It is in this state that you may experience Buddha Nature (see things as they really are). From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of similarities with zen, and of course there should be if they are both taking you to the same place. There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana than I, and also participants that probably have a different opinion of what zen is than I've just wrote out. I hope you'll hear from them. Welcome to the Zen Forum... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, reconceiving1942 aham@ wrote: Hi, I am new here in this group. I am familiar with some meditation techiques, where vipassana became the strongest one for me. What exactly is zen? is zen a mediation technique or a quality of life? If so, can any one describe this quality? Aham Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: new member
Dear Aham, Zen is about letting our inner divine, labeled as Buddha Nature, to shine through. Let it be our guide in our daily life. And the only way that it may shine through depends on the purification of our physical, mental and spiritual hindrances. Because our inner divine, same as the external almighty, is all knowing, all wise, all powerful, all harmonious. JM On 8/22/2013 2:07 AM, Bill! wrote: Aham, IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience Buddha Nature (to see things as they really are in Vipassana-speak) and then to incorporate that experience into your daily life. These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - which in Japanese means 'sit zen'. Although there are many beginning techniques used to learn to do zazen and the most popular does involve using the breath as does Vipassana; but all zen techniques (zazen, koan study, chanting, bowing, etc...) are all geared to bring you eventually to a meditative state called 'shikantaza' which means 'just sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese. It is the same (I believe) as what the Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'. It is in this state that you may experience Buddha Nature (see things as they really are). From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of similarities with zen, and of course there should be if they are both taking you to the same place. There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana than I, and also participants that probably have a different opinion of what zen is than I've just wrote out. I hope you'll hear from them. Welcome to the Zen Forum... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, reconceiving1942 aham@... wrote: Hi, I am new here in this group. I am familiar with some meditation techiques, where vipassana became the strongest one for me. What exactly is zen? is zen a mediation technique or a quality of life? If so, can any one describe this quality? Aham
Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle Merle, As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle  Merle, Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as I do. Someone ELSE! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle  Merle, I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle  Merle, I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'‚ the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that has me stumped! would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga? ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak? after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing regardless)... a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut ÃÆ'‚ my zen question is thus: ÃÆ'‚ to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? ÃÆ'‚ merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
