subject:"\[Zen\] compassion"

Re: [Zen] Compassion Research

2013-09-05 Thread Kristopher Grey

On 9/4/2013 8:37 PM, tri...@yahoo.com.au wrote:

> ..."Buddhist concept of self-compassion"...

Whatever that may be thought to be, it is not compassion, nor does it 
even sound particularly Buddhist.

Please don't mistake 'New Age' feel good/self love/self help BS for 
Buddhism, despite the plethora of snippets and quotes from Buddhist 
sources sprinkled throughout contemporary 'compassionate' texts.

'Compassion', as taught by Buddha, is perhaps less understood than 
'Enlightenment', which is then compounded by people assuming it resides 
in altruistic/caring worldly actions, affections, and other such 
appearances.

Given the basis of the survey as described, I am naturally suspecting it 
to be arranged so as to gain reinforcement for/refinement of some 
preexisting bias/pet theory/agenda (just like all other surveys).

However, being a doubter of my own doubtfulness before all others, I'll 
just go have a look...

KG





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Re: [Zen] Compassion Research

2013-09-05 Thread larry maher

Oh Bill it was a joke AND if I knew it was from you I would have gladly
filled it out. BUT what do they think we have that everyone else doesn't?
"They" just believe and act on their emotions and 'We"  just observe our
emotions (mostly) and try not to act on the destructive ones!


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Bill!  wrote:

> **
>
>
> Larry,
>
> The survey, like your post below, is voluntary; but the survey, unlike
> your post, is anonymous.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, larry maher  wrote:
> >
> > screw you (just kidding)
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 8:37 PM,  wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > I am a post-grad (clinical psychology) student researching the
> > > relationship between a Buddhist concept of self-compassion and mood
> states.
> > > Please help me by taking 8 minutes or so to fill in my survey. Kind
> regards.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > (survey is anonymous and voluntary)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Survey link: https://www.psychdata.com/s.asp?SID=154915
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Larry Maher*
> >
>
>  
>



-- 
*Larry Maher*

Re: [Zen] Compassion Research

2013-09-05 Thread larry maher

screw you (just kidding)


On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 8:37 PM,  wrote:

> **
>
>
> I am a post-grad (clinical psychology) student researching the
> relationship between a Buddhist concept of self-compassion and mood states.
> Please help me by taking 8 minutes or so to fill in my survey. Kind regards.
>
>
>
> (survey is anonymous and voluntary)
>
>
>
> Survey link: https://www.psychdata.com/s.asp?SID=154915
>
>  
>



-- 
*Larry Maher*

Re: [Zen] Compassion Research

2013-09-05 Thread Bill!

Larry,

The survey, like your post below, is voluntary; but the survey, unlike your 
post, is anonymous.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, larry maher  wrote:
>
> screw you (just kidding)
> 
> 
> On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 8:37 PM,  wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> > I am a post-grad (clinical psychology) student researching the
> > relationship between a Buddhist concept of self-compassion and mood states.
> > Please help me by taking 8 minutes or so to fill in my survey. Kind regards.
> >
> >
> >
> > (survey is anonymous and voluntary)
> >
> >
> >
> > Survey link: https://www.psychdata.com/s.asp?SID=154915
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> *Larry Maher*
>

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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[Zen] Compassion Research

2013-09-04 Thread trisfb



















I am a
post-grad (clinical psychology) student researching the relationship between a Buddhist
concept of self-compassion and mood states. Please help me by taking 8 minutes or
so to fill in my survey. Kind regards.

 

(survey is
anonymous and voluntary)

 

Survey
link: https://www.psychdata.com/s.asp?SID=154915
















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[Zen] compassion for all

2013-06-24 Thread Merle Lester



 
 mike... i was at tai chi and another tai ch...ier...a lady over 70 plus was 
horrified that i felt compassion for the killer... 
she's a conservative catholic having bred 6 kiddies..thank her for the over 
population of the world. 
i question did she at any stage ask herself was she worthy breeding material?..
no that would never entertain her tiny mind... breed till you drop...
i felt like i was a criminal for feeling compassion for the killer...
merle


  
Merle,


 you have a good depth of compassion.
 I agree with you. 
We often hear about being One with life, nature, other people etc.
 But if that's the case then we are equally One with the murderers, rapists and 
child molesters. 
We vow to save "all" sentient beings...
mike


 


  
.

Re: [Zen] compassion stretches across the globe it's not a competition either

2013-04-18 Thread Edgar Owen

Merle,

Thinking caring thoughts IS NOT compassion. It doesn't help anyone. Compassion 
is actually helping people or animals alleviate suffering in the REAL world.

You are just massaging your own ego to think otherwise

Edgar




 
On Apr 17, 2013, at 7:38 PM, Merle Lester wrote:

> 
>  edgar...
> 
> do i have to prove to you what i do?..
> you can do what ever you like and be as compassionate as you wish with your 
> immediate surroundings..
> 
> however compassion extends to all living creatures..
> do they really have to be within sight of you..?... 
> i taught at high school level art ages 12 to 18 for 30 years...and at one 
> school for 4 years with many disadvantaged kids...
> 
> you have no idea what i have been through or am going through..
> your arrogance is appalling as joe has told you in another post about my son 
> who is suffering as i type..
> 
> i am a people's person..
>  i listen to people i meet and am compassionate and caring even in the 
> briefest of conversation in the supermarket with a stranger... 
> i love all animals and plants just as much as you do..
> anyway why do i have to explain myself to you... compassion is not a 
> competition
> 
>  i do not know how you could not feel anything for those people in the boston 
> bombings..
> i suppose 9/11 blew over you too...
> you sound so callous uncaring unfeeling...
> 
> sure you are helping the creatures in your immediate environment..
> great don't you think i do not do that?..
> for christ sake...there is a broader world out there...
> so it's water off a duck's back to you about what suffering goes on apart 
> from what is under your very nose?... 
> 
> merle
> 
>  
> Merle,
> 
> You offered ME compassion when I was NOT a victim.
> 
> All I said is I didn't need your compassion because I wasn't a victim, and 
> then you went ballistic on me
> 
> Can't you understand what is obvious? Don't you actually read what people 
> write?
> 
> If you want to understand compassion go out and ACTUALLY HELP ONE suffering 
> being. Just spouting off has NOTHING to do with compassion.
> 
> This morning I rescued a bunch of lady bugs trapped in my window and put them 
> outside. This morning I fed the fox with the broken hind leg. This morning I 
> replanted a bunch of pansies the raccoon I fed last night dug out looking for 
> worms.
> 
> That Merle is TRUE compassion.. What did you do to fulfill YOUR 
> Boddhisattva vows?
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>>  edgar,,, 
>> 
>> do you think am stupid? 
>> 
>> i figured i was an earthling when i was i was  born
>> 
>> ..what age did you realise?...
>> 
>> for christ sake it's nothing about EGO...
>> 
>> because you do not understand where i am coming from you choose to rabbet on 
>> as if i am ignorant of world events elsewhere on the planet..
>> 
>> i know what goes on edgar..
>> 
>> don't get your self all frothed up and foaming at the mouth...
>> 
>> you show no compassion for mankind by your callous and uncaring attitudes... 
>> 
>> it's your attitude..
>> 
>> is this the buddha nature that you see as reality?
>> 
>>  a false buddha nature and you are not even the slightest bit aware because 
>> your ego is bigger than a thousand football fields
>> 
>>  and you BUSILY praise yourself in the darkest of nights believing you are 
>> at the pinnacle of enlightenment awareness and perception..
>> 
>> totally unaware that
>> 
>> your presence on this earth is as small as a grain of sand and even less 
>> significant than the dust on your mantlepiece
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> merle
>> 
>>  
>> Merle,
>> 
>> Your 'caring' doesn't help them in the least, it just makes YOUR ego feel 
>> better. I have no problem if you want to express your feelings on this but 
>> criticizing others for not is not Zen.
>> 
>> And I do NOT consider myself an American! I'm an Earthling, one among ALL 
>> life forms on the planet.  The earth and all its life forms have my 
>> allegiance and are my brothers, not just human Americans...
>> 
>> The bombing in Boston is just one more among the interminable series of men 
>> killing men and other species, including US drone strikes, and wars which 
>> have caused enormously more suffering. It's one among millions of historical 
>> blips
>> 
>> Edgar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:36 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  edgar... who the hell do you care for apart from yourself?... i find this 
>>> a tad disgusting.. they are your fellow americans...merle
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Merle,
>>> 
>>> Why offer sympathy to me? It has nothing to do with me...
>>> 
>>> Edgar
>>> 
>>> 
 
 
 with deepest sympathy edgar 
 
 Merle
 
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

[Zen] compassion stretches across the globe it's not a competition either

2013-04-17 Thread Merle Lester

 edgar...

do i have to prove to you what i do?..
you can do what ever you like and be as compassionate as you wish with your 
immediate surroundings..

however compassion extends to all living creatures..
do they really have to be within sight of you..?... 
i taught at high school level art ages 12 to 18 for 30 years...and at one 
school for 4 years with many disadvantaged kids...

you have no idea what i have been through or am going through..
your arrogance is appalling as joe has told you in another post about my son 
who is suffering as i type..

i am a people's person..
 i listen to people i meet and am compassionate and caring even in the briefest 
of conversation in the supermarket with a stranger... 
i love all animals and plants just as much as you do..
anyway why do i have to explain myself to you... compassion is not a competition

 i do not know how you could not feel anything for those people in the boston 
bombings..
i suppose 9/11 blew over you too...
you sound so callous uncaring unfeeling...

sure you are helping the creatures in your immediate environment..
great don't you think i do not do that?..
for christ sake...there is a broader world out there...
so it's water off a duck's back to you about what suffering goes on apart from 
what is under your very nose?... 

merle

Merle,

You offered ME compassion when I was NOT a victim.

All I said is I didn't need your compassion because I wasn't a victim, and then 
you went ballistic on me

Can't you understand what is obvious? Don't you actually read what people write?

If you want to understand compassion go out and ACTUALLY HELP ONE suffering 
being. Just spouting off has NOTHING to do with compassion.

This morning I rescued a bunch of lady bugs trapped in my window and put them 
outside. This morning I fed the fox with the broken hind leg. This morning I 
replanted a bunch of pansies the raccoon I fed last night dug out looking for 
worms.

That Merle is TRUE compassion.. What did you do to fulfill YOUR 
Boddhisattva vows?

Edgar

On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Merle Lester wrote:

>
>
>
>
> edgar,,, 
>
>
>do you think am stupid? 
>
>
>i figured i was an earthling when i was i was  born
>
>
>..what age did you realise?...
>
>
>for christ sake it's nothing about EGO...
>
>
>because you do not understand where i am coming from you choose to rabbet on 
>as if i am ignorant of world events elsewhere on the planet..
>
>
>i know what goes on edgar..
>
>
>don't get your self all frothed up and foaming at the mouth...
>
>
>you show no compassion for mankind by your callous and uncaring attitudes... 
>
>
>it's your attitude..
>
>
>is this the buddha nature that you see as reality?
>
>
> a false buddha nature and you are not even the slightest bit aware because 
>your ego is bigger than a thousand football fields
>
>
> and you BUSILY praise yourself in the darkest of nights believing you are at 
>the pinnacle of enlightenment awareness and perception..
>
>
>totally unaware that
>
>
>your presence on this earth is as small as a grain of sand and even less 
>significant than the dust on your mantlepiece
>
>
>
>
>
>
>merle
>
>
>  
>Merle,
>
>
>Your 'caring' doesn't help them in the least, it just makes YOUR ego feel 
>better. I have no problem if you want to express your feelings on this but 
>criticizing others for not is not Zen.
>
>
>And I do NOT consider myself an American! I'm an Earthling, one among ALL life 
>forms on the planet.  The earth and all its life forms have my allegiance and 
>are my brothers, not just human Americans...
>
>
>The bombing in Boston is just one more among the interminable series of men 
>killing men and other species, including US drone strikes, and wars which have 
>caused enormously more suffering. It's one among millions of historical 
>blips
>
>
>Edgar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:36 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>  
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> edgar... who the hell do you care for apart from yourself?... i find this a 
>>tad disgusting.. they are your fellow americans...merle
>>
>>
>>  
>>Merle,
>>
>>
>>Why offer sympathy to me? It has nothing to do with me...
>>
>>
>>Edgar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>with deepest sympathy edgar 
>>>
>>>
>>>Merle
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

[Zen] Compassion and zen

2012-12-08 Thread Merle Lester



 compassion and zen
>
>
>
>i do not believe to have compassion we must also judge.
>
>
>it is freely given unconditionally and in universal love.
>
>
> any other way it is not truly compassion
>
>
>hence we must care and share for others who are less fortunate than ourselves
>
>
>any thoughts on this folks?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>back in the cyberspace finally.
>>
>>
>>merle
>>
>>
>>Subject: Compassion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
>>
>>
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

>

>

>


>

[Zen] Compassion

2012-11-07 Thread Bill!

Compassion is not just feeling sorry for someone or being generous as
many believe.  This is a much better definition:


...Bill!

Re: [Zen] compassion

2012-06-12 Thread mike brown

 



not the words mike... compassion is beyond words...it just ismerle

>..it is much better to sit silently and be the experience those words evoke.

What were you trying to teach me here exactly?

Mike

[Zen] compassion

2012-06-12 Thread Merle Lester

 not the words mike... compassion is beyond words...it just ismerle
Hi ED,

Zen has always been suspect in Buddhist circles for being a bit well, mean 
when it comes to compassion. I think it's human to feel compassion for people, 
in exactly the same way as defined by the examples you gave us. I never want to 
lose that side of my personal nature. However, when we think of an act or a 
thought as compassionate, we are ultimately deluding ourselves. First, there is 
no I nor 'other' to feel compassion for. And second, labeling an emotion is 
necessarily limiting and clearly not the emotion experienced itself. Although 
it is useful, to a degree, to read those definitions it is much better to sit 
silently and be the experience those words evoke.

Mike

--- On Wed, 13/6/12, ED  wrote:

>From: ED 
>Subject: [Zen] Re: The Self Illusion
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Wednesday, 13 June, 2012, 8:46
>
>
>  
> 
>Hi Bill and All -
>Three definitions of compassion from the Internet are:
>"Sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others."
>"A deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering.
>"The humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do 
>something about it"
>What would a typical Buddhist or zen definition of compassion be?
>--ED
>
>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>>
>> Sheng Yen was a great monk. His word about compassion brings the question of 
>> the results of zen practice. Does it bring about inhuman characteristics of 
>> no compassion? He also said, 'sit down and shut up'. But that does not rule 
>> out the ensuing compassion.
>>  
>> Anthony
>

[Zen] compassion

2012-06-12 Thread Merle Lester

 i was under the impression that zen was the nitty gritty...all this 
chatter...is this zen?
 enlightenment ... compassion  all intertwined
 chattering and endless mind games to prove who knows more than who and who is 
compassionate and who is not... does this achieve enlightenment?
compassion is enlightenment..visa versa
 no need to prove anything
 once the light is switched on the darkness of ignorance vanished
 mulching and turning the soil of compassion till it becomes a dry dusty 
desert... is that the way?
 the way just is
 to "find" the way...seek yea not ...listen to the wind blowing and the grasses 
singing
 as they have always sung
 if you do not hear their voices
 turn off your chattering mind
 breath deeply and listen with your heart
 compassion is already there 
 it is a full stop.
 merle

Hi K， The challenge for any communication is due to its sequential nature, 
while Chan needs to be communicated in 10,000 ways at the same time.  :-) 

On 6/12/2012 8:55 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: 

>Appreciate that jm, as I didn't express it very well  - or perhaps perfectly - 
>as there was no intention/expectation - just the expression. ;)
>
>K
>
>On 6/12/2012 11:49 AM, 覺妙精明 （JMJM） wrote: 
>  
>>I like it, K.  Yes, indeed.  At the "center / beneath" of it all, just "ONE / 
>>ALL".  However we care to label it.  "Categorization / filing / analyzing" 
>>are just different "perspectives / descriptions /mental construct" of this 
>>"inseparable oneness / integrated system"...  jm
>>
>>On 6/12/2012 8:33 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: 
>>  
>>>Yes, pointing to this can get in the way of their whole Bodhisattva dream.
>>>
>>>I'd go as far to say compassion is a side
  effect/integral aspect of awakening. I'd say the
  same of equanimity. All aspects of this
  realization. In other words, it's not what someone
  thinks it is.
>>>
>>>Compassion is not limited to some personal sense
  of caring for others, or "do gooder" efforts, or
  altruism. These may arise in/as compassionate
  awareness, or in delusional self-serving ways. The
  altruism bit being perhaps the point that raises
  the most ire as there is much confusion, much
  attachment to such "high" ideals. It should be
  clear though that altruism has an agenda, it has
  goals. It sees the world in terms of givers and
  takers, seeking to change this for some specific
  reason (good intentions and all that business) -
  which is not selfless beyond their imagination.
>>>
>>>The short version. Caring arises for/in response
  to. Compassion always with/as.
>>>
>>>When Buddha/Dharma/Sangha are seen as one, this is
  realized as  Enlightenment/Equanimity/Compassion -
  aspects of realization/awakening. Nothing changes,
  we simply realize (continually)  this has never
  not been so. Attaining nothing, thus everything.
>>>
>>>K
>>>
>>>On 6/11/2012 10:02 PM, Joe wrote: 
>>>  
Hi, Kris,

I tell you, it's good to have this point of
  agreement. I cannot tell you how it's
  surprised me at times when I made this point
  in sangha discussions at several zendos over
  four decades, just in passing, and have been
  jumped on by irate newcomers, or folks who
  have done a lot of "reading". Teachers,
  whether male or female who were doing the
  moderating, usually backed me up, but of
  course tried also to keep the complainers in
  the fold. I'm glad no one has jumped down my
  throat here yet on this point! If it happens,
  I'll let it go, but will appreciate that there
  are at least two of us here who see it this
  way. Really, as many as "two"? haha

We must urge others not to "fake it", though.
  Danger!

Practice, practice, practice!, instead.

(don't even THINK about compassion). ;-)

Strong practice,

--Joe

> Kris quoted Joe, and wrote:

>> (Another thing, sometimes noted:
  Compassion is not necessarily 
>> something you FEEL, but it simply
  operates; and, to say the least, it 
>> is not always "sweetness-and-light").

> Indeed!

>>>
>

[Zen] compassion, universe, etc

2011-04-24 Thread Mel

ED, I don't know what your latest posting was about exactly in relation to what 
message I had left on the forum but you may be complicating the issue more than 
necessary. I'll have to agree with Mayka here concerning yourself...too much 
reading, too much thinking, and ZERO experience. Being so, messages between 
yourself and those who practise and live Zen will ALWAYS be cross-wired. That's 
fine if you can deal with that
 
I could reply to all your messages by saying"Bright moon on the water"...or 
something like that. You won't understand it because I get the impression 
that you seem to be somewhat confused where you really belong...Yahweh, or 
something else. You say...
 
- those in the biblical path are not enlightened
- you've learnt all you needed to know
- bits of humour reminiscent of things/beliefs that are Middle Eastern
- things unrelated to what Zen is all about(eg. categorizing, word 
descriptions, etc)
 
To quote you ED, it's your personal judgement call. No one is going to convert 
you here(or even atempt to do so...waste of time), but do accept the fact that 
you live in another world to us and there's no bridge in-between. That's the 
bad news. The good news is...your style of posting strengthen one's Zen 
beliefs..namely mine
 
Buddha be praised
Mel

Re: [Zen] compassion, universe, etc

2011-04-21 Thread ED



Here's what I have found on the Internet concerning the heart:

Definitions of heart on the Web:
* the locus of feelings and intuitions; "in your heart you know it is
true"; "her story would melt your bosom" * the hollow muscular organ
located behind the sternum and between the lungs; its rhythmic
contractions move the blood through the body; "he stood still, his heart
thumping wildly" * the courage to carry on; "he kept fighting on
pure spunk"; "you haven't got the heart for baseball" * center: an
area that is approximately central within some larger region; "it is in
the center of town"; "they ran forward into the heart of the struggle";
"they were in the eye of the storm" * kernel: the choicest or most
essential or most vital part of some idea or experience; "the gist of
the prosecutor's argument"; "the heart and soul of the Republican
Party"; "the nub of the story" * an inclination or tendency of a
certain kind; "he had a change of heart" * a plane figure with
rounded sides curving inward at the top and intersecting at the bottom;
conventionally used on playing cards and valentines; "he drew a heart
and called it a valentine" * a firm rather dry variety meat (usually
beef or veal); "a five-pound beef heart will serve six" * affection:
a positive feeling of liking; "he had trouble expressing the affection
he felt"; "the child won everyone's heart"; "the warmness of his welcome
made us feel right at home" * a playing card in the major suit that
has one or more red hearts on it; "he led the queen of hearts"; "hearts
were trumps"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn




The heart has long been used as a symbol to refer to the spiritual,
emotional, moral, and in the past also intellectual core of a human
being. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_(symbol)




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
Bill and All,

Consider the two statements in Mayka's message below.  There are dozens
of question I  ask *myself* about them, the first of which might be:

I understand the heart as an organ that pumps blood. I understand that
the limbic system, which is the seat of feelings and emotion in the
brain, could be referred to as the heart.

What other meanings have been ascribed to the heart?

I would appreciate it if anybody who knows of another publiclicly known
meaning for 'the heart', point it out to us on the Internet.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
>  "No one can steal the heart as we all have it in us.  We can only be
awakened in the heart".
>
> Mayka

Re: [Zen] compassion, universe, etc

2011-04-21 Thread ED

Bill and All,

Consider the two statements in Mayka's message below.  There are dozens
of question I  ask *myself* about them, the first of which might be:

I understand the heart as an organ that pumps blood. I understand that
the limbic system, which is the seat of feelings and emotion in the
brain, could be referred to as the heart.

What other meanings have been ascribed to the heart?

I would appreciate it if anybody who knows of another publiclicly known
meaning for 'the heart', point it out to us on the Internet.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
>  "No one can steal the heart as we all have it in us.  We can only be
awakened in the heart".
>
> Mayka

Re: [Zen] compassion, universe, etc

2011-04-21 Thread Maria Lopez

Correction:
 
Oops,  I clicked the wrong word over the spellcheker in previous post.  I 
meant: "No one can steal the heart as we all have it in us.  We can only be 
awakened in the heart". 
 
Mayka

--- On Thu, 21/4/11, Maria Lopez  wrote:


From: Maria Lopez 
Subject: Re: [Zen] compassion, universe, etc
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 21 April, 2011, 15:04


  













 
"..'When people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created
When people see things as good, evil is created'...". Tao Te Ching.
 
Thank you Mel for the Tao Te Ching above reference.    Although the above said 
is a wise one, there is a danger in reading and take things literally as they 
are written.  Nonetheless the above said makes even stronger the point with not 
much success was trying to convey in posting addressed to Steve.  This is a 
very complex subject to be talked about in a public medium as it can easily 
lead to harmful misunderstandings.  Whatever different ideas we may all have, I 
like to think that we all have in common the one of well-being of all forms of 
life.  
 
It's not about nihilism or absolute truths.  It's more about be one with the 
heart of the ocean of life, visible and invisible.  JMJM has repeatedly pointed 
out to all of us the heart.  He has not been doing this superficially.  As soon 
as we are separated by the universal heart all sort of confusion arises in us 
including the one of creating the mental metaphor believe that one of our 
neighbours steals the purse of an elderly lady.  No one can still the heart as 
we all have it in us!.  We can only be awakening in the heart.
 
Mayka
 
 

--- On Thu, 21/4/11, Mel  wrote:


From: Mel 
Subject: [Zen] compassion, universe, etc
To: "zen forum" 
Date: Thursday, 21 April, 2011, 11:07


  


























My thoughts on the latest issues
 
COMPASSION AND ZEN
 
Compassion for what or who exactly? Compassion has no hard and fast rules, or 
descriptions. Do you show compassion for a habitual thief? How about a serial 
rapist or murderer? How does this compassion look like in solid form?
 
THE UNIVERSE
 
My interpretation: The universe is neither badly made, or perfect. It just is. 
I may be somewhat influenced by the Taoist teachings, but..
 
..'When people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created
When people see things as good, evil is created'...
-TaoTeChing, translator JH McDonald
source address: 
http://www.reformtaoism.org/Laozi_translations/JohnMcdonald_wc.php
 
..that makes a lot of sense to me. Since the book I mainly use for Zen readings 
is ZEN MIND BEGINNERS MIND, I then doubt that many from within the Zen communiy 
would be too shocked why I tend to think so
 
ARROGANT INDIVIDUALISTIC PRICKS
 
It's not very hard to come across so-called spiritual teachers or guides like 
this...even in a Buddhist faction like Zen. I personally judge people as they 
are, and I don't wait for an accumulation of years of contact before I say,"Gee 
willikers, they weren't so bad after all"
 
I've also heard it said,"Your enemy is your best teacher". Holy cow, that means 
it can come up to a point where we do finally learn a lesson in life after they 
burn our sorry miserable carcasses, ready to be put in urns
 
Back to individual oddities. In my youth, entering a new place or situation 
meant I knew practically zero about such new environment. Arrogant pricks as 
such (and they come in 2 sorts...male and female) behave likewise but backed 
off when I stood up to them. They feign humility in silence when what they 
actually did was ignore me completely even when I was putting myself at risk, 
be it with machinery or worse. Embrace them to heal their wounds? Hmmm...I say 
clear the head, and breath. Dualistically-speaking, good or evil may arise, but 
stop neither. Buddha gives what Buddha gives
 
ABUSIVE TEACHERS
 
Irrespective of whether it's in martial arts, spirituality, work, and so 
on...an abusive teacher (sexually, or some other) is just as so. Lack of 
knowledge or practise within the specified or chosen discipline
 
TOO MUCH THINKING AND WORDS
 
Unfortunately, an academic's disease which will never go away from the patient. 
Even those lacking education but who seem to be natural scholars when given the 
opportunity to be so are also affected by such. The more words and thinking
 
Buddha be praised
Mel

Re: [Zen] compassion, universe, etc

2011-04-21 Thread Maria Lopez






 
"..'When people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created
When people see things as good, evil is created'...". Tao Te Ching.
 
Thank you Mel for the Tao Te Ching above reference.    Although the above said 
is a wise one, there is a danger in reading and take things literally as they 
are written.  Nonetheless the above said makes even stronger the point with not 
much success was trying to convey in posting addressed to Steve.  This is a 
very complex subject to be talked about in a public medium as it can easily 
lead to harmful misunderstandings.  Whatever different ideas we may all have, I 
like to think that we all have in common the one of well-being of all forms of 
life.  
 
It's not about nihilism or absolute truths.  It's more about be one with the 
heart of the ocean of life, visible and invisible.  JMJM has repeatedly pointed 
out to all of us the heart.  He has not been doing this superficially.  As soon 
as we are separated by the universal heart all sort of confusion arises in us 
including the one of creating the mental metaphor believe that one of our 
neighbours steals the purse of an elderly lady.  No one can still the heart as 
we all have it in us!.  We can only be awakening in the heart.
 
Mayka
 
 

--- On Thu, 21/4/11, Mel  wrote:


From: Mel 
Subject: [Zen] compassion, universe, etc
To: "zen forum" 
Date: Thursday, 21 April, 2011, 11:07


  




























My thoughts on the latest issues
 
COMPASSION AND ZEN
 
Compassion for what or who exactly? Compassion has no hard and fast rules, or 
descriptions. Do you show compassion for a habitual thief? How about a serial 
rapist or murderer? How does this compassion look like in solid form?
 
THE UNIVERSE
 
My interpretation: The universe is neither badly made, or perfect. It just is. 
I may be somewhat influenced by the Taoist teachings, but..
 
..'When people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created
When people see things as good, evil is created'...
-TaoTeChing, translator JH McDonald
source address: 
http://www.reformtaoism.org/Laozi_translations/JohnMcdonald_wc.php
 
..that makes a lot of sense to me. Since the book I mainly use for Zen readings 
is ZEN MIND BEGINNERS MIND, I then doubt that many from within the Zen communiy 
would be too shocked why I tend to think so
 
ARROGANT INDIVIDUALISTIC PRICKS
 
It's not very hard to come across so-called spiritual teachers or guides like 
this...even in a Buddhist faction like Zen. I personally judge people as they 
are, and I don't wait for an accumulation of years of contact before I say,"Gee 
willikers, they weren't so bad after all"
 
I've also heard it said,"Your enemy is your best teacher". Holy cow, that means 
it can come up to a point where we do finally learn a lesson in life after they 
burn our sorry miserable carcasses, ready to be put in urns
 
Back to individual oddities. In my youth, entering a new place or situation 
meant I knew practically zero about such new environment. Arrogant pricks as 
such (and they come in 2 sorts...male and female) behave likewise but backed 
off when I stood up to them. They feign humility in silence when what they 
actually did was ignore me completely even when I was putting myself at risk, 
be it with machinery or worse. Embrace them to heal their wounds? Hmmm...I say 
clear the head, and breath. Dualistically-speaking, good or evil may arise, but 
stop neither. Buddha gives what Buddha gives
 
ABUSIVE TEACHERS
 
Irrespective of whether it's in martial arts, spirituality, work, and so 
on...an abusive teacher (sexually, or some other) is just as so. Lack of 
knowledge or practise within the specified or chosen discipline
 
TOO MUCH THINKING AND WORDS
 
Unfortunately, an academic's disease which will never go away from the patient. 
Even those lacking education but who seem to be natural scholars when given the 
opportunity to be so are also affected by such. The more words and thinking
 
Buddha be praised
Mel

[Zen] compassion, universe, etc

2011-04-21 Thread Mel





















My thoughts on the latest issues
 
COMPASSION AND ZEN
 
Compassion for what or who exactly? Compassion has no hard and fast rules, or 
descriptions. Do you show compassion for a habitual thief? How about a serial 
rapist or murderer? How does this compassion look like in solid form?
 
THE UNIVERSE
 
My interpretation: The universe is neither badly made, or perfect. It just is. 
I may be somewhat influenced by the Taoist teachings, but..
 
..'When people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created
When people see things as good, evil is created'...
-TaoTeChing, translator JH McDonald
source address: 
http://www.reformtaoism.org/Laozi_translations/JohnMcdonald_wc.php
 
..that makes a lot of sense to me. Since the book I mainly use for Zen readings 
is ZEN MIND BEGINNERS MIND, I then doubt that many from within the Zen communiy 
would be too shocked why I tend to think so
 
ARROGANT INDIVIDUALISTIC PRICKS
 
It's not very hard to come across so-called spiritual teachers or guides like 
this...even in a Buddhist faction like Zen. I personally judge people as they 
are, and I don't wait for an accumulation of years of contact before I say,"Gee 
willikers, they weren't so bad after all"
 
I've also heard it said,"Your enemy is your best teacher". Holy cow, that means 
it can come up to a point where we do finally learn a lesson in life after they 
burn our sorry miserable carcasses, ready to be put in urns
 
Back to individual oddities. In my youth, entering a new place or situation 
meant I knew practically zero about such new environment. Arrogant pricks as 
such (and they come in 2 sorts...male and female) behave likewise but backed 
off when I stood up to them. They feign humility in silence when what they 
actually did was ignore me completely even when I was putting myself at risk, 
be it with machinery or worse. Embrace them to heal their wounds? Hmmm...I say 
clear the head, and breath. Dualistically-speaking, good or evil may arise, but 
stop neither. Buddha gives what Buddha gives
 
ABUSIVE TEACHERS
 
Irrespective of whether it's in martial arts, spirituality, work, and so 
on...an abusive teacher (sexually, or some other) is just as so. Lack of 
knowledge or practise within the specified or chosen discipline
 
TOO MUCH THINKING AND WORDS
 
Unfortunately, an academic's disease which will never go away from the patient. 
Even those lacking education but who seem to be natural scholars when given the 
opportunity to be so are also affected by such. The more words and thinking
 
Buddha be praised
Mel

Re: [Zen] Compassion for Others Benefits Self

2010-08-20 Thread ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> Hi ED; I wonder why the American people need always from statistics, 
testing in the laboratory things that in the rest of the world are
obvious.

Hi Maria, it takes all types!



> Compassion understood as the empathy towards any living being benefits
with the same equanimity women as men. As the old say addressed to
everyone the same: "It's in the giving that we receive." What a silly
thing to make distintions here! -- Mayka

>From your perspective then maybe most people, and even entire
cultures/religions/ethnicities/nations are "silly"?--ED

RE: [Zen] Compassion for Others Benefits Self

2010-08-19 Thread BillSmart

Ed and Makya,

 

Also, it is a known fact that 72% of all statistics are just made up on the 
spot.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 4:34 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion for Others Benefits Self

 

  


Hi ED;

 

Thanks for the artilcle.

 

I wonder why the American people need always from statistics,  testing in the 
laboratory things that en the rest of the world are obvious.   Compassion 
understood as the empathy towards any living being benefits with the same 
equanimity women as men.  As the old say addressed to everyone the same: "It's 
in the giving that we receive  " What a silly thing to make distintions here!. 

Mayka

 

 


--- On Thu, 19/8/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Compassion for Others Benefits Self
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 19 August, 2010, 6:08

  

 

 <http://www.physorg.com/> 


Study Shows that Women's Compassion for Others Benefits the Self


August 18th, 2010 in Medicine & Health / Psychology & Psychiatry 

(PhysOrg.com) -- The Dalai Lama holds that compassion -- concern for the 
well-being of others -- leads to happiness. Now a new study has found that 
compassion may also have health benefits in the form of stress reduction for 
women.

The study involving 59 women found that those who demonstrated high levels of 
compassion for others were more receptive to social support, enabling them to 
better handle acute psychological stress and maintain overall well-being, 
according to psychologists at the University of Maine, University of California 
- Berkeley and University of California - San Francisco.

The higher the women's compassion, the lower their blood pressure and cortisol 
levels, and the higher their beneficial heart rate variability when an 
emotionally stressful task was buffered by social support -- smiling, nodding 
and encouraging words -- offered by another person. When the same stressor was 
not buffered by social support, women experienced significant increases in 
blood pressure and cortisol, regardless of their individual levels of 
compassion.

The research demonstrates that concern for the well-being of others does, 
indeed, benefit the self. By increasing the effectiveness of social support, 
compassion served a stress reduction function for women in the study.

The research findings by graduate student Brandon Cosley and psychologist 
Shannon McCoy at UMaine; Laura Saslow at UC-Berkeley; and Elissa Epel at UC-San 
Francisco were published in the  
<http://www.physorg.com/tags/journal+of+experimental+social+psychology/> 
Journal of Experimental Social Psychology.

Provided by University of Maine

"Study Shows that Women's Compassion for Others Benefits the Self." August 
18th, 2010.  <http://www.physorg.com/news201365891.html> 
www.physorg.com/news201365891.html

 





__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5377 (20100818) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

Re: [Zen] Compassion for Others Benefits Self

2010-08-19 Thread Maria Lopez

Hi ED;
 
Thanks for the artilcle.
 
I wonder why the American people need always from statistics,  testing in the 
laboratory things that en the rest of the world are obvious.   Compassion 
understood as the empathy towards any living being benefits with the same 
equanimity women as men.  As the old say addressed to everyone the same: "It's 
in the giving that we receive  " What a silly thing to make distintions here!. 

Mayka
 
 

--- On Thu, 19/8/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Compassion for Others Benefits Self
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 19 August, 2010, 6:08


  




 



Study Shows that Women's Compassion for Others Benefits the SelfAugust 18th, 
2010 in Medicine & Health / Psychology & Psychiatry 


(PhysOrg.com) -- The Dalai Lama holds that compassion -- concern for the 
well-being of others -- leads to happiness. Now a new study has found that 
compassion may also have health benefits in the form of stress reduction for 
women.
The study involving 59 women found that those who demonstrated high levels of 
compassion for others were more receptive to social support, enabling them to 
better handle acute psychological stress and maintain overall well-being, 
according to psychologists at the University of Maine, University of California 
- Berkeley and University of California - San Francisco.
The higher the women's compassion, the lower their blood pressure and cortisol 
levels, and the higher their beneficial heart rate variability when an 
emotionally stressful task was buffered by social support -- smiling, nodding 
and encouraging words -- offered by another person. When the same stressor was 
not buffered by social support, women experienced significant increases in 
blood pressure and cortisol, regardless of their individual levels of 
compassion.
The research demonstrates that concern for the well-being of others does, 
indeed, benefit the self. By increasing the effectiveness of social support, 
compassion served a stress reduction function for women in the study.
The research findings by graduate student Brandon Cosley and psychologist 
Shannon McCoy at UMaine; Laura Saslow at UC-Berkeley; and Elissa Epel at UC-San 
Francisco were published in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology.
Provided by University of Maine

"Study Shows that Women's Compassion for Others Benefits the Self." August 
18th, 2010. www.physorg.com/news201365891.html

[Zen] Compassion for Others Benefits Self

2010-08-18 Thread ED




  

Study Shows that Women's Compassion for Others Benefits the SelfAugust
18th, 2010 in Medicine & Health / Psychology & Psychiatry



(PhysOrg.com) -- The Dalai Lama holds that compassion -- concern for the
well-being of others -- leads to happiness. Now a new study has found
that compassion may also have health benefits in the form of stress
reduction for women.

The study involving 59 women found that those who demonstrated high
levels of compassion for others were more receptive to social support,
enabling them to better handle acute psychological stress and maintain
overall well-being, according to psychologists at the University of
Maine, University of California - Berkeley and University of California
- San Francisco.

The higher the women's compassion, the lower their blood pressure
and cortisol levels, and the higher their beneficial heart rate
variability when an emotionally stressful task was buffered by social
support -- smiling, nodding and encouraging words -- offered by another
person. When the same stressor was not buffered by social support, women
experienced significant increases in blood pressure and cortisol,
regardless of their individual levels of compassion.

The research demonstrates that concern for the well-being of others
does, indeed, benefit the self. By increasing the effectiveness of
social support, compassion served a stress reduction function for women
in the study.

The research findings by graduate student Brandon Cosley and
psychologist Shannon McCoy at UMaine; Laura Saslow at UC-Berkeley; and
Elissa Epel at UC-San Francisco were published in the Journal of
Experimental Social Psychology

.

Provided by University of Maine



"Study Shows that Women's Compassion for Others Benefits the Self."
August 18th, 2010. www.physorg.com/news201365891.html

RE: [Zen] Compassion

2010-08-04 Thread Maria Lopez

Hey Jody;
 
By the way, that one that walk away while the friend was grieving perhaps went 
away to put his own mask of oxigeno and got glued on it; he...! 
 
Mayka
 
 

--- On Wed, 4/8/10, Maria Lopez  wrote:


From: Maria Lopez 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 4 August, 2010, 22:00


  








Hi Jody;
 
Thanks for you empathy towards my person.  But as someone said: "Forgive them 
for they live in forgetfullness"  It is said that everything happens for a 
reason.  Perhaps the reason here is that I may not need from TNH any longer 
retreats.  One never knows when the bulb of enlightened is going to be switch 
on/off and find myself guiding the "Holy TNH!.  
 
Warm embrace
Mayka 
 
 
 
--- On Wed, 4/8/10, Jody W. Ianuzzi  wrote:


From: Jody W. Ianuzzi 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Compassion
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Wednesday, 4 August, 2010, 21:00


  

Hello Mayka,

Your message really disturbed me. I think the lack of compassion you found
in the meditation groups that you attended is terrible.

I have a good friend whose boyfriend calls himself a compassionate Buddhist
but when my friend's good friend died she sobbed for three hours and he just
walked out of the room. 

It just goes to show you that you can stand in a garage and call yourself a
car but you are not a car just like some people can call themselves Buddhist
and not be one.

JODY

RE: [Zen] Compassion

2010-08-04 Thread Maria Lopez

Hi Jody;
 
Thanks for you empathy towards my person.  But as someone said: "Forgive them 
for they live in forgetfullness"  It is said that everything happens for a 
reason.  Perhaps the reason here is that I may not need from TNH any longer 
retreats.  One never knows when the bulb of enlightened is going to be switch 
on/off and find myself guiding the "Holy TNH!.  
 
Warm embrace
Mayka 
 
 
 
--- On Wed, 4/8/10, Jody W. Ianuzzi  wrote:


From: Jody W. Ianuzzi 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 4 August, 2010, 21:00


  



Hello Mayka,

Your message really disturbed me. I think the lack of compassion you found
in the meditation groups that you attended is terrible.

I have a good friend whose boyfriend calls himself a compassionate Buddhist
but when my friend's good friend died she sobbed for three hours and he just
walked out of the room. 

It just goes to show you that you can stand in a garage and call yourself a
car but you are not a car just like some people can call themselves Buddhist
and not be one.

JODY

RE: [Zen] Compassion

2010-08-04 Thread Jody W. Ianuzzi

Hello Mayka,

Your message really disturbed me.  I think the lack of compassion you found
in the meditation groups that you attended is terrible.

I have a good friend whose boyfriend calls himself a compassionate Buddhist
but when my friend's good friend died she sobbed for three hours and he just
walked out of the room.  

It just goes to show you that you can stand in a garage and call yourself a
car but you are not a car just like some people can call themselves Buddhist
and not be one.

JODY 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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[Zen] Compassion

2010-08-04 Thread Maria Lopez

Talking about compassion, here I paste a first video from the five of them for 
your all enjoyment.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=armP8TfS9Is
 
Mayka

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-08-01 Thread Anthony Wu

JM,
 
Be and let be, so I go to an orgyhouse, I go looting, burning, taking drugs, 
and will accept all.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 2/8/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 2 August, 2010, 2:41 AM


  



Dear All,

What we teach in our school is to accept all form, because they are all 
manifestations of the universe.

Especially the internal forms, existing in our mind as theories, 
concepts, logic, terminologies, idealism based on language.

Forms are all transient, relative, and there for a reason. When our ego 
takes on a position, then we are in danger of discriminating against the 
position of others. We are no longer whole, no longer one with the 
universe. We are lost in our discriminating mind.

So what do we do? be and let be.. experience. awaken 
and never ever

pick or choose...

JM

-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

[Zen] Compassion

2010-08-01 Thread Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明

Dear All,

What we teach in our school is to accept all form, because they are all 
manifestations of the universe.

Especially the internal forms, existing in our mind as theories, 
concepts, logic, terminologies, idealism based on language.

Forms are all transient, relative, and there for a reason.  When our ego 
takes on a position, then we are in danger of discriminating against the 
position of others.  We are no longer whole, no longer one with the 
universe.  We are lost in our discriminating mind.

So what do we do?  be and let be.. experience. awaken  
and never ever

pick or choose...

JM

-- 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-27 Thread maitreya003

You forget everything of self down to the most subtle self undisclosed in 
sutra.  But to others you appear to remember everything, omniscience. path 
Destruction of the self down to very subtle self grasping to which if you did 
not know of its existence you could not achieve freedom from it. Buddha mind 
may be thought to be found and experienced but buddha body never arises.  
Compassion is a limb of that body to which many who propound experience of 
buddha nature deem meaningless.  This view of no self denies the no self that 
appears to others and is nihilistic.

Joe
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> In the path that you follow, do *you* forget anything? And, what is your
> path?
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > ED,
> >
> > At least he forgets gravity pulls his body down the earth. And others.
> >
> > Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> > > Joe,
> > >
> > > You keep pointing your finger at bill, which leads me to sympathize
> > with 'Bill'. He is always talking about the ultmate truth, forgetting
> > the conventional.
> > >
> > > Anthony
>

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-27 Thread ED




In the path that you follow, do *you* forget anything? And, what is your
path?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>
> At least he forgets gravity pulls his body down the earth. And others.
>
> Anthony



> > Joe,
> >
> > You keep pointing your finger at bill, which leads me to sympathize
> with 'Bill'. He is always talking about the ultmate truth, forgetting
> the conventional.
> >
> > Anthony

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-26 Thread maitreya003

He will be the first to tell you that he does not need or want your sympathy.  
I use him as an example because you have read his posts and understand his view 
of buddha nature.  But you agree with my view that he is always talking about 
ultimate nature, but never about the conventional objects that appear.  To him 
the ultimate negates the conventional necessity to act.  He projects ultimate 
reality onto conventional reality which is a functional thing that functions 
differently then the ultimate.  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Joe,
> Â 
> You keep pointing your finger at bill, which leads me to sympathize with 
> 'Bill'. He is always talking about the ultmate truth, forgetting the 
> conventional.
> Â 
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Mon, 26/7/10, maitreya003  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: maitreya003 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, 26 July, 2010, 3:49 AM
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony,
> 
> Ultimate truth is the way things really are, which is emptiness and more 
> specifically bliss and emptiness. False truths are those that do not lead to 
> ultimate truth but lead to perpetuated suffering. This is false truth in 
> regards to the ultimate. false truths in regards to the illusion that appears 
> are ones that lead to and perpetuate illusory suffering. This is why 
> compassion which has the power to relieve suffering and prevent future 
> suffering and negative rebirths for others is a truth. A false truth is that 
> compassion is an unnecessary illusion. Individual minds have the freedom to 
> abide in solitary peace, but to say that nothing more can be brought to the 
> world through that freedom or that nothing else needs to be done in the form 
> of compassion is a false truth which leads to other solitary attainers. 
> Solitary minds are great for the minds gone to solitary peace, but for those 
> who still suffer in and as the illusion, they are not much help. Not
>  much help does not mean they do not help others, but that the help is 
> limited compasred to that of a being of compassion. For compassion the end is 
> just the beginning as self dissappears the compassion grows in power. This 
> power is the effective force in relieving the suffering of others while 
> bringing them to inner peace. For a solitary mind gone to peace, they have a 
> cup of tea, not realizing that if they were truly no-self, compassion would 
> arise through them the subtle stains of the self remain. 
> 
> There are two truths, ultimate and conventional. The conventional truths may 
> be illusion, but they are one with the ultimate, so buddha called them 
> truths. Truth to the minds that are enhabiting the worlds that appear. From 
> conventional truth comes functioning things. Compassion is a functioning 
> thing, just as a solitary liberated mind is a functioning thing. It does not 
> matter in the conventional world who has found the ultimate, because the 
> world cant see their mind, but when the ultimate is brought to the world 
> through active compassion, it is seen. Compassion is how personal freedom 
> should be expressed. It is not a delusion but the active source of freedom in 
> the illusory functioning world of form. The middle way does not negate the 
> world of form while maintaining inner peace, but it functions within it never 
> forgetting its ultimate nature. A cup is conventionally a cup though it does 
> not really exist as its ultimate nature is emptiness, but without
>  the cup, the form, there would be no basis for its emptiness. Emptiness is 
> not some separate thing then the cup, but the ultimate nature of the cup. 
> There is not cup there is no emptiness of the cup. THere is no self there are 
> no others, everythings an illusion this is an ultimate view. There is a self 
> that appears, there are others that appear, everything appearing is an 
> illusion, this is a conventional truth view. The world of form, conventional 
> form, is a valid truth with no mistake of self or others. Now a conventional 
> self that believes in existant self and others is not. If your mind is mixed 
> with emptiness then conventional form should not contradict but validate that 
> view. The being that arises from the union of conventional and ultimate 
> truths is compassion. Views negate the world of inifinite conventional things 
> because they are illusory, yet the fact that they appear at all make them 
> objects that may not exist but appear. Buddha called them
>  objects of knowledge. Buddha's ominscient mind knows all objects of 
> knowledge, and still never leaves the ultimate. This is the difference 
> between buddha nature appearing as bill, whos mind is human bill gone to 
> peace and buddha. Fr

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-26 Thread Anthony Wu

ED,
 
At least he forgets gravity pulls his body down the earth. And others.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 26/7/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 26 July, 2010, 6:59 PM


  





In my observation, Bill is "forgetting" nothing. --ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> You keep pointing your finger at bill, which leads me to sympathize
with 'Bill'. He is always talking about the ultmate truth, forgetting
the conventional.
>
> Anthony

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-26 Thread ED

In my observation, Bill is "forgetting" nothing.   --ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> You keep pointing your finger at bill, which leads me to sympathize
with 'Bill'. He is always talking about the ultmate truth, forgetting
the conventional.
>
> Anthony

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-25 Thread Anthony Wu

Joe,

You keep pointing your finger at bill, which leads me to sympathize with 
'Bill'. He is always talking about the ultmate truth, forgetting the 
conventional.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 26/7/10, maitreya003  wrote:

From: maitreya003 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 26 July, 2010, 3:49 AM

Anthony,

Ultimate truth is the way things really are, which is emptiness and more 
specifically bliss and emptiness. False truths are those that do not lead to 
ultimate truth but lead to perpetuated suffering. This is false truth in 
regards to the ultimate. false truths in regards to the illusion that appears 
are ones that lead to and perpetuate illusory suffering. This is why compassion 
which has the power to relieve suffering and prevent future suffering and 
negative rebirths for others is a truth. A false truth is that compassion is an 
unnecessary illusion. Individual minds have the freedom to abide in solitary 
peace, but to say that nothing more can be brought to the world through that 
freedom or that nothing else needs to be done in the form of compassion is a 
false truth which leads to other solitary attainers. Solitary minds are great 
for the minds gone to solitary peace, but for those who still suffer in and as 
the illusion, they are not much help. Not
 much help does not mean they do not help others, but that the help is limited 
compasred to that of a being of compassion. For compassion the end is just the 
beginning as self dissappears the compassion grows in power. This power is the 
effective force in relieving the suffering of others while bringing them to 
inner peace. For a solitary mind gone to peace, they have a cup of tea, not 
realizing that if they were truly no-self, compassion would arise through them 
the subtle stains of the self remain. 

There are two truths, ultimate and conventional. The conventional truths may be 
illusion, but they are one with the ultimate, so buddha called them truths. 
Truth to the minds that are enhabiting the worlds that appear. From 
conventional truth comes functioning things. Compassion is a functioning thing, 
just as a solitary liberated mind is a functioning thing. It does not matter in 
the conventional world who has found the ultimate, because the world cant see 
their mind, but when the ultimate is brought to the world through active 
compassion, it is seen. Compassion is how personal freedom should be expressed. 
It is not a delusion but the active source of freedom in the illusory 
functioning world of form. The middle way does not negate the world of form 
while maintaining inner peace, but it functions within it never forgetting its 
ultimate nature. A cup is conventionally a cup though it does not really exist 
as its ultimate nature is emptiness, but without
 the cup, the form, there would be no basis for its emptiness. Emptiness is not 
some separate thing then the cup, but the ultimate nature of the cup. There is 
not cup there is no emptiness of the cup. THere is no self there are no others, 
everythings an illusion this is an ultimate view. There is a self that appears, 
there are others that appear, everything appearing is an illusion, this is a 
conventional truth view. The world of form, conventional form, is a valid truth 
with no mistake of self or others. Now a conventional self that believes in 
existant self and others is not. If your mind is mixed with emptiness then 
conventional form should not contradict but validate that view. The being that 
arises from the union of conventional and ultimate truths is compassion. Views 
negate the world of inifinite conventional things because they are illusory, 
yet the fact that they appear at all make them objects that may not exist but 
appear. Buddha called them
 objects of knowledge. Buddha's ominscient mind knows all objects of knowledge, 
and still never leaves the ultimate. This is the difference between buddha 
nature appearing as bill, whos mind is human bill gone to peace and buddha. 
From omniscience comes power to heal the world and this can come from no human 
gone to peace, but one gone to peace and grown to perfect appearance through 
transformation. 

I didnt mean to get long winded sorry about that.

Joe
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Joe,
> Â 
> What are the criteria for ultimate truths and false truths?
> Â 
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Fri, 23/7/10, maitreya003  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: maitreya003 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, 23 July, 2010, 11:28 AM
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> Buddha claimed ultimate truth and warned of hells and taught a true path to 
> which conflicted other paths. There are ultimate truths and there are false 
> truths. Those who hold false truths declair ignorance as truth.
> joe
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> &

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-25 Thread maitreya003

Anthony,

Ultimate truth is the way things really are, which is emptiness and more 
specifically bliss and emptiness.  False truths are those that do not lead to 
ultimate truth but lead to perpetuated suffering. This is false truth in 
regards to the ultimate.  false truths in regards to the illusion that appears 
are ones that lead to and perpetuate illusory suffering.  This is why 
compassion which has the power to relieve suffering and prevent future 
suffering and negative rebirths for others is a truth.  A false truth is that 
compassion is an unnecessary illusion.  Individual minds have the freedom to 
abide in solitary peace, but to say that nothing more can be brought to the 
world through that freedom or that nothing else needs to be done in the form of 
compassion is a false truth which leads to other solitary attainers. Solitary 
minds are great for the minds gone to solitary peace, but for those who still 
suffer in and as the illusion, they are not much help.  Not much help does not 
mean they do not help others, but that the help is limited compasred to that of 
a being of compassion.  For compassion the end is just the beginning as self 
dissappears the compassion grows in power.  This power is the effective force 
in relieving the suffering of others while bringing them to inner peace. For a 
solitary mind gone to peace, they have a cup of tea, not realizing that if they 
were truly no-self, compassion would arise through them the subtle stains of 
the self remain.  

There are two truths, ultimate and conventional.  The conventional truths may 
be illusion, but they are one with the ultimate, so buddha called them truths.  
Truth to the minds that are enhabiting the worlds that appear.  From 
conventional truth comes functioning things.  Compassion is a functioning 
thing, just as a solitary liberated mind is a functioning thing.  It does not 
matter in the conventional world who has found the ultimate, because the world 
cant see their mind, but when the ultimate is brought to the world through 
active compassion, it is seen.  Compassion is how personal freedom should be 
expressed.  It is not a delusion but the active source of freedom in the 
illusory functioning world of form.  The middle way does not negate the world 
of form while maintaining inner peace, but it functions within it never 
forgetting its ultimate nature.  A cup is conventionally a cup though it does 
not really exist as its ultimate nature is emptiness, but without the cup, the 
form, there would be no basis for its emptiness.  Emptiness is not some 
separate thing then the cup, but the ultimate nature of the cup.  There is not 
cup there is no emptiness of the cup.  THere is no self there are no others, 
everythings an illusion this is an ultimate view.  There is a self that 
appears, there are others that appear, everything appearing is an illusion, 
this is a conventional truth view.  The world of form, conventional form, is a 
valid truth with no mistake of self or others.  Now a conventional self that 
believes in existant self and others is not.  If your mind is mixed with 
emptiness then conventional form should not contradict but validate that view.  
The being that arises from the union of conventional and ultimate truths is 
compassion.  Views negate the world of inifinite conventional things because 
they are illusory, yet the fact that they appear at all make them objects that 
may not exist but appear.  Buddha called them objects of knowledge.  Buddha's 
ominscient mind knows all objects of knowledge, and still never leaves the 
ultimate.  This is the difference between buddha nature appearing as bill, whos 
mind is human bill gone to peace and buddha.  From omniscience comes power to 
heal the world and this can come from no human gone to peace, but one gone to 
peace and grown to perfect appearance through transformation.  

I didnt mean to get long winded sorry about that.

Joe
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Joe,
> Â 
> What are the criteria for ultimate truths and false truths?
> Â 
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Fri, 23/7/10, maitreya003  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: maitreya003 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, 23 July, 2010, 11:28 AM
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> Buddha claimed ultimate truth and warned of hells and taught a true path to 
> which conflicted other paths. There are ultimate truths and there are false 
> truths. Those who hold false truths declair ignorance as truth.
> joe
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > ED,
> > ÃÂ 
> > If you claim yours is the ultimate truth, you qualify for a Taliban.
> > ÃÂ 
> > Anthony
> > 
> > --- On Wed, 21/7/10, ED  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > From: ED 
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-23 Thread Anthony Wu

Joe,
 
What are the criteria for ultimate truths and false truths?
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 23/7/10, maitreya003  wrote:


From: maitreya003 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 23 July, 2010, 11:28 AM


  



Buddha claimed ultimate truth and warned of hells and taught a true path to 
which conflicted other paths. There are ultimate truths and there are false 
truths. Those who hold false truths declair ignorance as truth.
joe

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
> Â 
> If you claim yours is the ultimate truth, you qualify for a Taliban.
> Â 
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Wed, 21/7/10, ED  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: ED 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, 21 July, 2010, 10:06 PM
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why "don't claim", if that's the way one sees it?
> 
> --ED
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Artie,
> >
> > It is OK to have different beliefs, as long as you don't claim yours
> is the final truth.
> >
> > Anthony
>

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-22 Thread Chris Austin-Lane

Of course I meant "unanswerable questions."

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Chris Austin-Lane
 wrote:
> Buddha also had a whole list of answerable questions and as he died,
> said, "Oh, by the way, I meant to change some of the rules I put forth
> earlier, but I haven't got time to detail the changes now."  And "Be a
> lamp unto yourself."
>
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 8:28 PM, maitreya003  wrote:
>> Buddha claimed ultimate truth and warned of hells and taught a true path to 
>> which conflicted other paths.  There are ultimate truths and there are false 
>> truths.  Those who hold false truths declair ignorance as truth.
>> joe
>>
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>>>
>>> ED,
>>> Â
>>> If you claim yours is the ultimate truth, you qualify for a Taliban.
>>> Â
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>> --- On Wed, 21/7/10, ED  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: ED 
>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
>>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>> Date: Wednesday, 21 July, 2010, 10:06 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> Â
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why "don't claim", if that's the way one sees it?
>>>
>>> --ED
>>>
>>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Artie,
>>> >
>>> > It is OK to have different beliefs, as long as you don't claim yours
>>> is the final truth.
>>> >
>>> > Anthony
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
>> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-22 Thread Chris Austin-Lane

Buddha also had a whole list of answerable questions and as he died,
said, "Oh, by the way, I meant to change some of the rules I put forth
earlier, but I haven't got time to detail the changes now."  And "Be a
lamp unto yourself."

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 8:28 PM, maitreya003  wrote:
> Buddha claimed ultimate truth and warned of hells and taught a true path to 
> which conflicted other paths.  There are ultimate truths and there are false 
> truths.  Those who hold false truths declair ignorance as truth.
> joe
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>>
>> ED,
>> Â
>> If you claim yours is the ultimate truth, you qualify for a Taliban.
>> Â
>> Anthony
>>
>> --- On Wed, 21/7/10, ED  wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: ED 
>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Wednesday, 21 July, 2010, 10:06 PM
>>
>>
>> Â
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Why "don't claim", if that's the way one sees it?
>>
>> --ED
>>
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>> >
>> > Artie,
>> >
>> > It is OK to have different beliefs, as long as you don't claim yours
>> is the final truth.
>> >
>> > Anthony
>>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-22 Thread maitreya003

Buddha claimed ultimate truth and warned of hells and taught a true path to 
which conflicted other paths.  There are ultimate truths and there are false 
truths.  Those who hold false truths declair ignorance as truth.
joe

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
> Â 
> If you claim yours is the ultimate truth, you qualify for a Taliban.
> Â 
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Wed, 21/7/10, ED  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: ED 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, 21 July, 2010, 10:06 PM
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why "don't claim", if that's the way one sees it?
> 
> --ED
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Artie,
> >
> > It is OK to have different beliefs, as long as you don't claim yours
> is the final truth.
> >
> > Anthony
>

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-22 Thread Anthony Wu

ED,

It is your choice, if you qualify for both. There are plenty of other options 
to choose from. Each of them claim they are the best, condemning non believers 
to hell. Mind you. Since you cannot pick more than one belief, you will one way 
or the other end up in hell. The hell population is sure to expand 
tremendously. Fortunately there are different hells to choose. It is said the 
Indian hell is Ok. You are supposed to sleep on a nail bed. But all the nails 
have been stolen, so the pain is gone. The devil is supposed to beat  'the hell 
out of you', but he is a civil servant, so all he does is clock in everyday, 
and clock out right away. Therefore you won't see him.

Anthony

--- On Thu, 22/7/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 22 July, 2010, 12:14 PM

Or a neocon?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>
> If you claim yours is the ultimate truth, you qualify for a Taliban.
>
> Anthony

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-22 Thread Anthony Wu

ED,

It is your choice, if you qualify for both. There are plenty of other options 
to choose from. Each of them claim they are the best, condemning non believers 
to hell. Mind you. Since you cannot pick more than one belief, you will one way 
or the other end up in hell. The hell population is sure to expand 
tremendously. Fortunately there are different hells to choose. It is said the 
Indian hell is Ok. You are supposed to sleep on a nail bed. But all the nails 
have been stolen, so the pain is gone. The devil is supposed to beat  'the hell 
out of you', but he is a civil servant, so all he does is clock in everyday, 
and clock out right away. Therefore you won't see him.

Anthony

--- On Thu, 22/7/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 22 July, 2010, 12:14 PM

Or a neocon?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>
> If you claim yours is the ultimate truth, you qualify for a Taliban.
>
> Anthony

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-21 Thread ED

Or a neocon?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>
> If you claim yours is the ultimate truth, you qualify for a Taliban.
>
> Anthony

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-21 Thread Anthony Wu

ED,
 
If you claim yours is the ultimate truth, you qualify for a Taliban.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 21/7/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 21 July, 2010, 10:06 PM


  





Why "don't claim", if that's the way one sees it?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Artie,
>
> It is OK to have different beliefs, as long as you don't claim yours
is the final truth.
>
> Anthony

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-21 Thread ED

Why "don't claim", if that's the way one sees it?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Artie,
>
> It is OK to have different beliefs, as long as you don't claim yours
is the final truth.
>
> Anthony

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Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-17 Thread Anthony Wu

Artie,
 
It is OK to have different beliefs, as long as you don't claim yours is the 
final truth.
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 17/7/10, roloro1557  wrote:


From: roloro1557 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 17 July, 2010, 10:45 PM


  




Hi Anthony,

No, I don't believe in karma and rebirth, at least not in the sense that 
buddhists do. 

Artie

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:

> Do you believe in karma and rebirth?

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-17 Thread roloro1557


Hi Anthony,

No, I don't believe in karma and rebirth, at least not in the sense that 
buddhists do. 

Artie



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:

> Do you believe in karma and rebirth?






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Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-16 Thread Anthony Wu

Artie,

If nothing comes by birth, how about Mozart composing music at 5. All other 
geniuses are just getting a special gene from the parents. But that is also 
something by birth.

Do you believe in karma and rebirth?

Anthony
--- On Fri, 16/7/10, roloro1557  wrote:

From: roloro1557 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 16 July, 2010, 8:04 PM

Hi Anthony :-)

I agree whole-heartedly :-) Nothing comes by birth. Sometimes through 
circumstances things just go terribly, terribly wrong. And I don't mean that 
lightly. People are hurt terribly in the process. This is reality, a very harsh 
reality. Piling on more wrong and harshness does no one any good. 

I think the way to deal with it is to put the criminal in a place where they 
can't hurt anyone else anymore, but to treat him/her humanely. And to do 
everything we can for the victims and the survivors to help them heal and get 
their lives back. 

Artie

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Artie,
>  
> Certainly those who committed crime because of their own unfortunate 
> experiences deserve compassion. They are 'acquired sociopaths'. But are there 
> 'born sociopath?' For those who don't believe in karma and rebirth, the 
> answer is an absolute negative. Pol Pot, for instance, thought people who 
> were brought up by bourgeois education could not be rectified and must be 
> tortured and killed, as they had no role to play in the 'new society' he was 
> trying to create. So you see children of 12-3 years of age, who were being 
> educated by Pol Pot regime, knock the brain out of their parents' head. 
> Everything is acquired. Nothing comes by birth.

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-16 Thread roloro1557

Hi Anthony :-)

I agree whole-heartedly :-) Nothing comes by birth. Sometimes through 
circumstances things just go terribly, terribly wrong. And I don't mean that 
lightly. People are hurt terribly in the process. This is reality, a very harsh 
reality. Piling on more wrong and harshness does no one any good. 

I think the way to deal with it is to put the criminal in a place where they 
can't hurt anyone else anymore, but to treat him/her humanely. And to do 
everything we can for the victims and the survivors to help them heal and get 
their lives back. 

Artie

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Artie,
>  
> Certainly those who committed crime because of their own unfortunate 
> experiences deserve compassion. They are 'acquired sociopaths'. But are there 
> 'born sociopath?' For those who don't believe in karma and rebirth, the 
> answer is an absolute negative. Pol Pot, for instance, thought people who 
> were brought up by bourgeois education could not be rectified and must be 
> tortured and killed, as they had no role to play in the 'new society' he was 
> trying to create. So you see children of 12-3 years of age, who were being 
> educated by Pol Pot regime, knock the brain out of their parents' head. 
> Everything is acquired. Nothing comes by birth.

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Re: [Zen] Compassion

2010-07-15 Thread Anthony Wu

Artie,
 
Certainly those who committed crime because of their own unfortunate 
experiences deserve compassion. They are 'acquired sociopaths'. But are there 
'born sociopath?' For those who don't believe in karma and rebirth, the answer 
is an absolute negative. Pol Pot, for instance, thought people who were brought 
up by bourgeois education could not be rectified and must be tortured and 
killed, as they had no role to play in the 'new society' he was trying to 
create. So you see children of 12-3 years of age, who were being educated by 
Pol Pot regime, knock the brain out of their parents' head. Everything is 
acquired. Nothing comes by birth.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 15/7/10, roloro1557  wrote:


From: roloro1557 
Subject: [Zen] Compassion
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 15 July, 2010, 4:58 PM


  



I am acquainted with a man who once thought he wanted to be a psychiatrist. He 
got as far as doing his residency, which was working with men in prison. He 
told me something that I have never forgotten. 

He said; "When you work with these men and you hear their stories, you may not 
agree with what they did, but you can certainly understand why they did what 
they did. You don't think they should be let out of prison. But you can't help 
feeling compassion for them."

Artie

RE: [Zen] Compassion

2006-12-11 Thread donald hwong

Good Day Bill, 

It is true that not much of the Chinese Chan had a chance to be introduced to 
the West, because Communist China destroy most of the resources since 1945.  
Taiwan was poor until about 20 years ago.  Spiritual concerns grow mostly in 
the 80's in Taiwan.

I signed up to around 5 discussion groups to learn about the Zen development in 
the US.  As you described, mostly are  schools from Korean and Japanese sect.

In our school of Chinese Chan, we teach the act of "Consummation", or 
"resolution", or "be one with others". Actually often after diligent practice, 
we'll "know" that we are "connected" anyway.  Maybe this is the reason, I have 
not find too much reference to the term "compassion", just like your friend. 

Donald






 

Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  
  Kathy,
  I talked to a friend of mine about this and he gave me a little different 
perspective.  He reminded me that zen in the West has been very heavily 
influenced by Japanese and Korean zen, both of which are expressions of very 
macho cultures.  The West also is pretty macho so it was an easy transition.  
He indicated that Chinese zen was a little less macho, but nothing much exists 
at least nothing much has been translated about zen teachings with a more 
compassionate perspective.  At least he didnt know of any.
  I hope someone does know of some sources, or perhaps has access to some 
non-English texts that talk more about the compassionate side of zen.  Id be 
very interested to hear about them.
   
  Bill! (again)
   
  Bill previously wrote:
  Kathy,  Okay  now Im seriously going to try to address your 
question. 
  Its an interesting question.  I thought a lot about it and really cant come 
up with the type of philosophical or warm-n-fuzzy quote youre probably 
looking for.  I know zen just doesnt put a lot of value on philosophy, and 
maybe not even warm-n-fuzzy. 
  Almost any koan (zen teaching parable) than involves a mondo (question and 
response session) between teacher and student would demonstrate the compassion 
a zen teacher has for others. 
  The most famous koan like that is Joshus koan Mu (The Gateless Gate, Case 
1) in which Joshu answers one of his students off-topic questions with a 
nonsensical, seemingly inappropriate reply to encourage his student to look to 
himself for answers. 
  Another is Guteis One Finger (The Gateless Gate, Case 3) in which Gutei 
permanently deprives his student of using an easy, non-original answer - 
forcing him to come up with one of his own. 
  These, from my perspective, show true zen-inspired compassion.
   Bill!
   
  Kathy wrote:
  Does anyone have three or so short, but poignant quotes regarding compassion? 
 Something from a great teacher or the sutras or like that.  I read alot of Zen 
and Buddhist books, but can't remember quotes (I can't tell a joke, either; it 
could be five words long and I'd still screw up the punch line). 
  I appreciate any help you can give - I do a couple Websites/online forums and 
am always trying to slip Zen thought (non-thought) in under the radar; without 
being tooo preachy.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

 
   

 
-
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RE: [Zen] Compassion

2006-12-09 Thread Bill Smart

Kathy,

I talked to a friend of mine about this and he gave me a little different
perspective.  He reminded me that zen in the West has been very heavily
influenced by Japanese and Korean zen, both of which are expressions of very
macho cultures.  The West also is pretty macho so it was an easy transition.
 He indicated that Chinese zen was a little less macho, but nothing much
exists at least nothing much has been translated about zen teachings with a
more compassionate perspective.  At least he didn't know of any.

I hope someone does know of some sources, or perhaps has access to some
non-English texts that talk more about the compassionate side of zen.  I'd
be very interested to hear about them.

 

.Bill! (again)

 

Bill previously wrote:

Kathy,  Okay - now I'm seriously going to try to address your question. 

It's an interesting question.  I thought a lot about it and really can't
come up with the type of philosophical or warm-'n-fuzzy quote you're
probably looking for.  I know zen just doesn't put a lot of value on
philosophy, and maybe not even warm-'n-fuzzy. 

Almost any koan (zen teaching parable) than involves a mondo (question and
response session) between teacher and student would demonstrate the
compassion a zen teacher has for others. 

The most famous koan like that is Joshu's koan 'Mu' (The Gateless Gate, Case
1) in which Joshu answers one of his student's off-topic questions with a
nonsensical, seemingly inappropriate reply to encourage his student to look
to himself for answers. 

Another is 'Gutei's One Finger' (The Gateless Gate, Case 3) in which Gutei
permanently deprives his student of using an easy, non-original answer -
forcing him to come up with one of his own. 

These, from my perspective, show true zen-inspired compassion.

 .Bill!

 

Kathy wrote:

Does anyone have three or so short, but poignant quotes regarding
compassion?  Something from a great teacher or the sutras or like that.  I
read alot of Zen and Buddhist books, but can't remember quotes (I can't tell
a joke, either; it could be five words long and I'd still screw up the punch
line). 

I appreciate any help you can give - I do a couple Websites/online forums
and am always trying to slip Zen thought (non-thought) in under the radar;
without being tooo preachy.

RE: [Zen] Compassion

2006-12-09 Thread Bill Smart

Kathy,  Okay - now I'm seriously going to try to address your question.

 

It's an interesting question.  I thought a lot about it and really can't
come up with the type of philosophical or warm-'n-fuzzy quote you're
probably looking for.  I know zen just doesn't put a lot of value on
philosophy, and maybe not even warm-'n-fuzzy.

 

Almost any koan (zen teaching parable) than involves a mondo (question and
response session) between teacher and student would demonstrate the
compassion a zen teacher has for others.

 

The most famous koan like that is Joshu's koan 'Mu' (The Gateless Gate, Case
1) in which Joshu answers one of his student's off-topic questions with a
nonsensical, seemingly inappropriate reply to encourage his student to look
to himself for answers.

 

Another is 'Gutei's One Finger' (The Gateless Gate, Case 3) in which Gutei
permanently deprives his student of using an easy, non-original answer -
forcing him to come up with one of his own.

 

These, from my perspective, show true zen-inspired compassion.

 

.Bill!

 

Kathy wrote:

Does anyone have three or so short, but poignant quotes regarding
compassion?  Something from a great teacher or the sutras or like that.  I
read alot of Zen and Buddhist books, but can't remember quotes (I can't tell
a joke, either; it could be five words long and I'd still screw up the punch
line).

 

I appreciate any help you can give - I do a couple Websites/online forums
and am always trying to slip Zen thought (non-thought) in under the radar;
without being tooo preachy.

RE: [Zen] Compassion

2006-12-09 Thread Bill Smart

Donald,  That's a pretty good one.  It's not exactly traditionally zen, but
from a Tibetan Buddhist.  It's a similar thought coming from the opposite
perspective to a quote on compassion attributed to a Bodhisattva who's often
quoted in Western culture:  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto
you." - Jesus of Nazareth.

 

Donald posted:

>From Dalai Lama,
"Compassion is the undertaking to share the karma of others." from one of
his books on Compassion.  I don't remember the title.

Namaste,
Donald

RE: [Zen] Compassion

2006-12-09 Thread Bill Smart

How about.?

1.  "Get a Life!" - anonymous
2.  "Poor, poor, pitiful me." - Warren Zevon 
3.  "If you're scared dude, stay home!" - Pizza Dude 

 

Kathy's original straight-line was:

Does anyone have three or so short, but poignant quotes regarding
compassion?  Something from a great teacher or the sutras or like that.  I
read alot of Zen and Buddhist books, but can't remember quotes (I can't tell
a joke, either; it could be five words long and I'd still screw up the punch
line).

I appreciate any help you can give - I do a couple Websites/online forums
and am always trying to slip Zen thought (non-thought) in under the radar;
without being tooo preachy.

Re: [Zen] Compassion

2006-12-09 Thread donald hwong

Kathy,

I understand fully how you trying to "slip" through.  Here is one I used a 
lot.

>From Dalai Lama,
"Compassion is the undertaking to share the karma of others."

from one of his books on Compassion.  I don't remember the title.

Namaste,
Donald

Kathy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:   
Does anyone have three or so short, but poignant quotes regarding compassion?  
Something from a great teacher or the sutras or like that.  I read alot of Zen 
and Buddhist books, but can't remember quotes (I can't tell a joke, either; it 
could be five words long and I'd still screw up the punch line).
  
 I appreciate any help you can give - I do a couple Websites/online forums and 
am always trying to slip Zen thought (non-thought) in under the radar; without 
being tooo preachy.
  
 
 
   

 
-
Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people 
who know.

[Zen] Compassion

2006-12-09 Thread Kathy


Does anyone have three or so short, but poignant quotes regarding
compassion?  Something from a great teacher or the sutras or like that. 
I read alot of Zen and Buddhist books, but can't remember quotes (I
can't tell a joke, either; it could be five words long and I'd still
screw up the punch line).



I appreciate any help you can give - I do a couple Websites/online
forums and am always trying to slip Zen thought (non-thought) in under
the radar; without being tooo preachy.

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